1 Tuesday, 28 March 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. And we hope that all of us will
7 get used to the new courtroom layout before too long. At the moment it
8 feels quite unusual, I think, for most people.
9 May I remind you, sir, of the affirmation at the beginning of your
10 evidence, which still applies.
11 Now, Mr. Vasic, you were questioning.
12 WITNESS: PETR KYPR [Resumed]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Vasic: [Continued]
14 Q. [Interpretation] Thank you. Good afternoon Your Honours, good
15 afternoon to everyone in the courtroom. Mr. Kypr, good afternoon.
16 First of all, I would like to do something that is still open
17 after yesterday's session, and that is to give the number for Exhibit 324.
18 Yesterday it was 0D05-0213. Now we have all the references for this
19 exhibit, I think. Thank you.
20 Mr. Kypr, yesterday at the end of the session we talked about the
21 events relating to the Ilok area, and then later the Brsadin village area.
22 First of all, I would like to ask you if you remember that on the 15th of
23 October, 1991 you were in a monitoring mission delegation that visited
24 Ilok and which comprised Mr. Cunningham, Mr. Waters, Mr. Finakaliotis and
25 yourself. Do you remember that?
1 A. I don't remember that. I don't have it in my memory, but we can
2 check it in the evidences.
3 Q. Thank you. Could we now look at document bearing the number
4 0D00-0912. That's the B/C/S version, and then the English version is
5 attached, 0D00-0915. That is a report of the commission monitoring the
6 implementation of the cease-fire and also monitoring the activities of the
7 European Monitoring Mission which was sent to the operative centre of the
8 armed forces of the SFRY.
9 A. Excuse me, sir. I can't read it. It's too small.
10 Q. Thank you. Is this better now? Could we now maybe focus on the
11 bottom part of this page? Thank you. Mr. Kypr, could we please look at
12 this first passage and could you please confirm if you remember what it
13 says. In item 2, it says, "The activities of the European Community
14 Monitoring Mission."
15 A. Yes, I can read it, but the document isn't -- isn't mine or -- or
16 I -- I haven't seen it before.
17 Q. Yes, I know that it's not your document. I am going to provide
18 you with the following reference of your document. Mr. Kypr, I don't have
19 the document written by your mission on the 13th of October. Obviously
20 the document is somewhere in the archives of the European Monitoring
21 Mission, which we have not obtained. But we will try to go through the
22 document of the Monitoring Commission, and perhaps you can remember the
23 events that took place at the time.
24 In paragraph 2 it states that: "On the bridge 25th of May, at
25 10.00 they were received by the commander of the unit, Colonel Grahovac,"
1 and he talks about the European Mission.
2 Transcript, page 2, line 22: It's the bridge named the 25th of
4 And briefly, he acquainted them with the measures and activities
5 in the course of the day in relation to yesterday's agreement. And the
6 commander stressed that in the course of the previous night there were
7 armed conflict between different factions in Ilok. The meeting was
8 covered by a crew from TV Belgrade.
9 In the course of the day the mission intensively worked to
10 establish and implement the duties arising from the agreement.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we don't know where the
12 counsel is reading from.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. At 1600 hours the approaches to Ilok were de-mined and a unit of
15 the JNA left to check this together with the monitors. Also, according to
16 our information --
17 A. I have no text on my display. The new text.
18 Q. You are right. I apologise. Can we move to page 2 now. Could
19 you please enlarge or zoom in on the first two paragraphs. I'm going to
20 repeat: "At approximately 1600 hours, according to the information that
21 we have, the road around Ilok was de-mined and a JNA unit left to check
22 that, together with the observers, or the monitors. Also, according to
23 our information, a large quantity of weapons has been returned in the
24 following places: Mohovo, Sarengrad and Bapska."
25 Do you remember being together with Colonel Grahovac during the
1 preparations for the signing of the agreement and that you went to inspect
2 the area around Ilok that was de-mined? Please wait until the end of the
4 A. [Previous translation continues] ... teams of the ECMM have met a
5 few times Colonel Grahovac, but I don't know the -- if the date is -- is
6 right, and so I cannot confirm that this document is -- is valid or not.
7 And I -- I -- it didn't help me to -- to refresh my memory. But we were
8 working there in Ilok many times because we felt that it's very important,
9 and so we sent them there, teams, almost each day.
10 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that almost every day a team of the
11 Monitoring Mission was in Ilok in that period from mid-October until late
12 October, 1991?
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry, excuse me, please. I
14 assume that it was all -- each -- each day or that the period was
15 maximally three days.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
18 this document as an exhibit for the activities of the European Monitoring
19 Mission in the area of Ilok.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 325.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 Q. Mr. Kypr, could you please turn to tab 18, please.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. We have a report here by the European Monitoring
1 Mission team. Were you a part of that team? Do you remember?
2 A. I think that I was not there, because I am not mentioned in the
3 first part of the table.
4 Q. Thank you. It's a document in tab 18, and it's number 00381383,
5 and the B/C/S translation is 0304040700. Could you please read what it
6 states in paragraph 3, and can you please tell us if you know about the
8 A. Just a moment.
9 Q. While the witness is looking for that section, I just want to say
10 that this document is number 0D05-0187. That's the original, and
11 0D050-819 for the B/C/S. So the original has the number 0D05-0187, and
12 the B/C/S version 0D05-0189.
13 Mr. Kypr, have you managed to find the document? That's why I did
14 mention that it was in tab 18.
15 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ... Your Honour, I
16 do have a question. I don't remember the situation there, but I have a
17 copy of my notebook, the other notebook from the previous time that was
18 displayed before, and there are some written remarks about the 19th of
19 October. May I use it as a -- as the answer, or ...
20 JUDGE PARKER: I think we take this in stages. First you say you
21 don't know of the report. And does this mean that you can't verify
22 anything about its contents?
23 THE WITNESS: I don't remember the -- the -- the meeting there,
24 but I know that the -- some Croatian representatives came over the front
25 line to see the situation in Ilok. And I know, I remember that I was in
1 the team of ECMM which crossed over the -- the front line to pick up the
2 delegation and to bring them to Ilok. The way back was covered by another
3 team, so I don't remember the -- the -- the last part of it.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to say when that was?
5 THE WITNESS: I don't remember exact date if I am not using
6 papers, so according my memory, I know that it was one or two days after
7 surrender of Ilok.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to say whether Colonel Grahovac was
9 one of the JNA representatives who met those Croatian people?
10 THE WITNESS: I -- I can only try to think about that, but -- but
11 I have no real memory about it.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Mr. Vasic.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Perhaps we can try it in this way: I would like to ask the
16 witness whether this report, which is in tab 18 that we're just looking
17 at, did you obtain a copy of that report from the archives of the regional
18 centre of the European Monitoring Mission and hand it over to Mr. Vladimir
19 Dzuro, the investigator of the ICTY?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please wait for the
22 THE WITNESS: [Previous translation continues] ...
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Kypr, you answer very quickly and before the
24 translators are finished with the question. If you can remember to try
25 and pause. Thank you.
1 Do you wish to tender the report, Mr. Vasic?
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 326, Your Honours.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 Q. Could we now look at document 0D00-0183 on the screen. That's the
7 B/C/S version. The English version is 0D00-0186. That's a report of the
8 commission monitoring the activities of the Monitoring Mission sent to the
9 Main Staff of the SFRY armed forces on the 19th of October, 1991, and
10 which deals with the topic from the document that we tendered a little bit
12 Could we look at the bottom of the page, please. Thank you very
13 much. Item 2, it says "Activities of the European Community Monitoring
14 Mission," and it says: "The three-member EC Monitoring Mission at 7.30
15 hours set off from Avala with the aim of monitoring the situation relating
16 to the convoy --" and then it's, "(Doctors Without Borders) in order to
17 pull out the wounded from Vukovar. However, once they passed Tovarnik (on
18 the way to Vukovar) they were informed by their centre in Zagreb to return
19 to the motorway and wait for a delegation of the Croatian Sabor Assembly
20 and to travel to Ilok."
21 Mr. Kypr, did you -- were you amongst those members of that team
22 that went together to monitor the situation with this convoy and that was
23 told to return? Earlier you told us that you went through the front line
24 and you brought the observers with you and that you then handed them over
25 to another observer team; is that correct?
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
2 Q. This document from which I read the first paragraph bears the date
3 19th of October, 1991, as well as the document which was drafted by the
4 Monitoring Mission, a document that we tendered previously. That is why
5 I'm asking you, were you in that part of the delegation which just
6 escorted these people from the Croatian Assembly to Ilok and then you
7 handed them over to another team; is that clear from this paragraph that
8 we have just read?
9 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I assume that, yes, but I
10 cannot tell even if there are two delegations in various times, so I
11 really don't remember.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kypr, I would just like you to wait after my
13 question. I'm going to make a pause after your question [as interpreted],
14 so that the interpreters can complete their translation.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It's for the purposes of
16 the transcript because if two speakers speaking English speak at the same
17 time, the court reporter can only write down what one speaker is saying.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
19 this document as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 327.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
23 Q. Mr. Kypr, I would like you to turn to tab 16, please. This is
24 document 0D05-0067. That's the original. And the B/C/S translation is
25 0D05-0069. Have you found this document, Mr. Kypr?
1 A. Yes, I found it.
2 Q. Thank you. Would you kindly read the first and the second
3 paragraph of this document, what it states below the words, "Ilok
4 evacuation." And if you can read slowly so that the interpreters can
5 interpret it.
6 A. "The evacuation was originally intended to start at 0700 hours the
7 17th of October, 1991, with the handover of weapons by the village --" I
8 don't know the abbreviation -- "to the JNA," probably. "The weaponry
9 handover was delayed to approximately 0930. The formal --" I'm not quite
10 sure about the word -- "evacuation started at approximately 1000 hours.
11 The JNA reported that 3.368 people, (plus minus) and 536 vehicles (plus
12 minus) departed Ilok for various destinations."
13 Point 2: "The conduct of the JNA during the evacuation was beyond
14 --" I'm sorry, I can't read it. "The evacuation was --" it's illegible
15 for me.
16 Q. Mr. Kypr --
17 A. "The evacuation was carried out in a professional --" it's
18 illegible for me -- "manner at all times. JNA soldiers assisted --" I
19 can't read it. Illegible, "people with their belongings to the point of
20 carrying bags and pushing stalled vehicles. One lady, due to give birth,
21 was expedited through the check-point with stated that he and other Serbs
22 --" sorry, there is no sense. There is something missing in between.
23 Q. Thank you. In the translation I have, the text does not end on
24 this page, as you can see for yourself. Is this a document that you
25 received from the archives of the regional centre of the ECMM?
1 A. According the signature and symbols there, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. The document we can see on the screen is a different
3 one, hence I wanted to repeat the number. Now we have the right one. Now
4 we have the right one.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I beg your pardon, the
6 mistake is all mine because I invoked a document from another package, but
7 now we have the right document on the screen. I apologise, but we have so
8 many references, so many documents, that mistakes do happen. Hence, the
9 correct number is 0D05-0180 for the original, and in B/C/S 0D05-0182. I
10 would like to tender this document, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, do you want the transcript to reflect
12 what was being read? As we appreciate, Mr. Kypr has had recent eye
13 surgery and he cannot read very well, he explained. So he's missed a lot.
14 What was read out from paragraph 2 was: "The conduct of the JNA
15 during the evacuation was beyond reproach. The evacuation was carried out
16 in a professional, courteous manner at all times. JNA soldiers assisted
17 elderly people with their belongings to the point of carrying bags and
18 pushing stalled vehicles. One lady, due to give birth, was expedited
19 through the check-points with --" and then, as the witness said, there's
20 some lack of coherence in the sentence -- "with stated that he and other
21 Serb volunteers had attacked specific houses in Lovas 10 October, 1991 to
22 'prevent' Serbs from being slaughtered - during the attack 22 Croats and
23 one Serb were killed." I think that's beyond the point you were wanting
25 Could I observe that it appears to me that the continuation page
1 is dealing with an entirely different subject from the first page.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, you are right. Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: And you will notice, as has been pointed out to me
4 by Judge Thelin, that on the second page there is a paragraph numbered 2
5 which says, "For your info," or information, whereas on the first page
6 what I was reading is numbered paragraph 2. So I think we have two
7 different documents.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. You are
9 completely right.
10 Q. I wanted to ask Mr. Kypr for a clarification. Do you believe,
11 Mr. Kypr, that these are two separate documents that we can see on the two
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
14 Q. Thank you. As far as I can see, the other document we mentioned
15 pertains to Lovas and the first document pertains to Ilok.
16 MR. MOORE: If it helps my learned friend and the Court, if you
17 look at tab 13 and look at tab 16, you will find in actual fact what I
18 will call the second page is the same page, and it also seems to be that
19 in tab 13 it flows logically. "He also stated ..." whereas tab 16 it is
20 -- it does not flow. So it would appear that the tab 13 document is
21 correct with regard to the second page, whereas the tab 16 second page is
23 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would like to thank my learned
24 friend for the clarification. He is obviously right. Since the entire
25 first page had been read out, of this document, I don't think there is any
1 need to tender the document itself, as its contents have been entered into
2 the transcript. Thank you.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Kypr, do you know whether members of the ECMM during the 29th
6 -- that is, the 28th, the 29th and the 30th of October of 1991 met with
7 representatives of the JNA as well as the representatives of the
8 government of Eastern Slavonia, Western Srem and Baranja in a place called
9 Tenja close to Osijek. Are you familiar with that?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. I will try to refresh your memory. I would kindly ask that
12 document 0D00-0167 in B/C/S be put on the screen. And in English it's
13 0D00-0169. Again, it is a report of the aforementioned commission,
14 monitoring the activities of European monitors. The date is the 30th of
15 September, 1991. Thank you. Could we please zoom in on the second part.
16 Thank you.
17 In item 2, it says: "Activities of the Monitoring Mission.
18 During the 29th of September, 1991 in the area of the Tenja military
19 facility a meeting was held between members of the peacekeeping mission of
20 the European Commission with the representatives of the JNA (Colonel Adam
21 Loncar, Colonel Vujica Rakicevic and Colonel Boro Ivanovic) and on behalf
22 of the SAO Slavonia, Baranja and Western Srem, the two ministers of the
23 government attended, namely Rada Leskovac and Slobodan Rajic."
24 For the transcript: Rade Leskovac and Slobodan Rajic. Another
25 correction for the transcript: Page 20, line 22. The name is Rade,
1 R-a-d-e, masculine.
2 Mr. Kypr, sir, are you familiar with such a meeting involving the
3 people I've -- whose names I've read?
4 A. [Previous translation continues] ... territory and that I was a
5 member of the team, but I -- I don't remember more.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you remember whether during those discussions you
7 were given a report on the situation of detention facilities in Osijek;
8 that is, members of the JNA who were imprisoned in Osijek? Could we
9 please go to page 2 of this document. Is this topic familiar to you?
10 A. Yes, I have been with one team in Osijek in the prison, and I was
11 a member of the team. Okay.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this document,
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 328.
17 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, before we proceed, I'm sorry. Could I
18 just clarify, in relation to the documents that my learned friend is
19 putting in, certainly Ambassador Kypr is accepting that -- that he was a
20 member of the mission, but to what do the documents go upon -- to what
21 issue are the Defence relying upon if the document is flowing from -- from
22 the ambassador? He said he was there, but he has been asked no other
23 questions about it.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, that could be an issue to be dealt with
25 in final address.
1 MR. MOORE: Well, I certainly will try, but all I really wish is
2 for clarification, because there's been no questions about the mission
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
5 MR. MOORE: Whether the document is being put in testimonially.
6 JUDGE PARKER: It is at the moment. It is being put in on the
7 basis that it's a document, as with your documents, that were identified
8 by the witness either as coming from a report of the ECMM --
9 MR. MOORE: Yes.
10 JUDGE PARKER: -- or, in this case, as a document, it would
11 appear, of the JNA, dealing with the same topic. Now, if you like, we can
12 air the issue now.
13 MR. MOORE: Well, I don't wish to air it extensively. Might I
14 just try and, for clarification, the documents that we have put in have
15 been ECMM documents of -- this is a witness who worked for the ECMM at
16 that time, and they're put in testimonially and he was asked about the
17 content of the documents, sometimes he didn't know, other times he did.
18 In my submission, the distinction that can be drawn here is that this is a
19 witness who cannot attest to the authenticity of these documents, but
20 merely the fact that a mission had occurred. That's where the distinction
21 would be, I would submit.
22 JUDGE PARKER: That, I believe, has become clear in the question
23 that is asked of him.
24 The point of this, Mr. Vasic, of course, is that Mr. Moore is
25 saying this witness has not said anything about the truth of what is in
1 this report. He says he doesn't know about it. He can tell you, perhaps,
2 that he was part of an ECMM mission that was referred to in this report,
3 but he can't tell you whether anything set out in the report is correct or
4 not. So perhaps to avoid misconception, Mr. Moore is flagging the point
5 now so that you realise this document doesn't prove the truth of what's
6 set out in it.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked the witness first
8 about the documents themselves, that is of the Monitoring Commission, the
9 activities of the ECMM. And yesterday he replied that he had no knowledge
10 of such reports, and today with each of the reports I asked him about a
11 specific event described in a given report. From our esteemed colleague
12 Mr. Moore and the witness, we received the reports of the ECMM. He was a
13 member of the mission, but as concerns most of these reports, he had no
14 part in their drafting.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, we are not dealing specifically with the
16 ECMM reports. We are dealing with the reports such as the one you have
17 just tendered, which is not an ECMM report. This witness knows nothing of
18 the report. He says that the only thing he can say about it is that he
19 was a member of an ECMM mission that was referred to in one place in the
20 report. It appears to be a report from the First Military District of the
21 JNA to the General Staff. Now, this is evidence that you tender, but be
22 aware that there is nothing in the -- what the witness has said that can
23 verify anything about the truth of what is in there except that there was
24 an ECMM mission. Everything else is not being proved by this document.
25 Mr. Moore is just wanting, as a matter of caution, for you to be
1 clear of that now rather than think that you have now proved everything
2 that's in this document.
3 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I completely
4 understand Mr. Moore's position. I asked the witness some questions in
5 relation to portions of these documents. For example, the discussion
6 concerning the imprisoned JNA members in Osijek. He participated in
7 those, and he confirmed that.
8 As regards the remaining portion of the document that the witness
9 cannot speak about, the Defence will call witnesses who will be able to do
11 JUDGE PARKER: I think I have unnecessarily delayed, but Mr. Moore
12 raised the point. I wanted to make clear, in my mind, that were you
13 aware. I think the position is clear to everybody. Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
15 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Vasic. You have mentioned prisons as
16 a plural. I remember that we have been on -- only in one prison.
17 Q. No, Mr. Kypr, I didn't say prisons, I mentioned the prison in
18 Osijek, but I did mention that there were several people detained. Thank
19 you in any case.
20 Did you know that on the 11th of October, 1991 -- or to say at the
21 beginning of October, a liaison officer from your mission came to your
22 headquarters at Avala in order to speak with the mission representatives
23 and with Mr. Michel Perrin regarding the passage of convoy with
24 medication, supplies --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, but did not manage
1 to hear the route of the convoy.
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you remember that at the beginning of October you were notified
4 by one of your liaison officers that in Sarengrad there was a crime
5 committed against the Serb civilian population immediately after the
6 mission left the locality. Do you remember that? And because of that,
7 Mr. Perrin expressed his views relating to the events.
8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
9 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Croatian armed forces setting four
10 houses aflame and that they slaughtered the people who lived in them in
11 October, 1991?
12 A. I don't remember.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. Excuse me, sir. Maybe it would be useful if I explain the
15 position, my position within the mission. Then you can understand better
16 why I -- I am not aware of many things.
17 Q. Please go ahead.
18 A. I was there as a -- not only as a monitor on the front line, but
19 when we came back from the mission, in the evening I have to go through
20 media, Serb media, means watch TV, to go through press, to see messages
21 from Croatia on Croatian, and try to explain it to -- to my colleagues to
22 be aware of the situation in society we are living, or we are facing with.
23 So it was really demanding and then I had no so much time to follow all
24 those situations. Sometimes I -- I was not present in -- in debriefings
25 of teams. So it's only for your knowledge.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr, sir. Do you have any knowledge about the
2 convoy that had left on the 11th of October from Vinkovci towards Vukovar,
3 and it was a humanitarian convoy. Did you know that an explosive device
4 was found on one of the trucks amongst the supplies, the food, and then
5 the convoy was returned from Nustar to Vinkovci, and then in their second
6 attempt, on the 13th of October, it finally managed to reach the Vukovar
8 A. I remember that from Serb media.
9 Q. Were you present when a person by the name of Davro Mihaljevic, on
10 the 18th of October, 1991 - and by the way, this person was the driver of
11 the truck on board which the device was found, and he was arrested - on
12 that day he was handed over to the members of the ECMM in Belgrade?
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I do remember that there was
14 some Croat given to our hands, and he was sleeping there in the -- in the
15 -- one of the rooms of the mission's hotel. But I don't know anything
16 about his next destiny or -- or...
17 Q. Thank you. Could we now please see document 0D00-0179 in the
18 original, put on the screen, as well as 0D00-0181 in English. Thank you
19 very much. Could we zoom in on the bottom part of the document. Thank
21 Mr. Kypr, under 2, where it states, "Activities of the European
22 Community Monitor Mission," it states: "In the course of the day the
23 observer mission of the European Community did not have any activities in
24 the area of the First Military District today, owing to mediation by the
25 mission, Davro Mihaljevic, a soldier born on the 14th of October, 1963 in
1 Vukovar was released from prison and turned over to the mission today. He
2 was brought in on the 11th of October, 1991, after a bomb was found in his
3 vehicle in a convoy with food for Vukovar."
4 Then it goes on to say: "He was released on order and turned over
5 to the mission at Avala at 10.50 hours where he stated in writing: 'From
6 the moment I was brought in I was -- on October 11th, 1991, I was not
7 mistreated or injured in any manner by the JNA or by anyone else and I do
8 not think I need a medical examination.'"
9 Is this the event or an event that you were present at and that
10 you talked about?
11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... only what I already have
12 said, that there was one Croat hand over to our hands, but I cannot
13 confirm that the date is right or -- or that the -- the declaration made
14 there is -- is authentic.
15 Maybe I can stress, if I can see the -- the other -- the next
16 sentence, I saw parts from those documents published in daily press
17 bulletin or press release of JNA, and it was really for -- for PR. And
18 there, in the second sentence, you can see how it worked that
19 "humanitarian convoy" is in quotation marks to show that it is probably
20 not humanitarian, or not convoy. So it -- I -- I would like only to show
21 in which environment we were working. Thank you.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
23 this document as an exhibit.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 329.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kypr, were you in the Monitoring Mission that came
3 to the Vukovar barracks with the convoy on the 13th of October, 1991? Do
4 you have any information about that?
5 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
6 Q. Were you in any humanitarian convoy that came to Vukovar in
7 October with -- from the Croatian side?
8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... according to my knowledge,
9 Dr. Schou was there. But not me. The convoy went from Croatian side, you
10 told me, and we were serving on -- on -- in Belgrade.
11 Q. And did Dr. Schou also serve in Belgrade?
12 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
13 Q. In October, 1991, where did he serve?
14 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't remember.
15 Q. Do you know whether he was in Belgrade at the time, or you don't
16 recall that either?
17 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
18 Q. Thank you. Did you hear from any Ilok citizens whether there was
19 a terrorist attack conducted that was thwarted by the police, the attack
20 was supposed to be have been carried out by the Croatian terrorists?
21 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
22 Q. Thank you very much. Could we now look at Exhibit 313 on our
23 screens. Mr. Kypr, that is tab 19. Could we look at page 03040396 in
24 B/C/S, and in English it would be page 00381386.
25 Mr. Kypr, look at this report. Father Markos is mentioned in it.
1 Can you please tell us whether this is a Catholic priest or not. Do you
2 know that?
3 A. I don't remember. What I know is that there was some monastery in
4 Ilok and Catholic church, but I can't say if it is an Orthodox or Catholic
5 priest, Markos, because it is not my report, and I was not there, I
6 believe. According those members of teams, you can see that it is --
7 there are two teams, but not -- not me.
8 Q. What I would like to know is whether, during the time that you
9 went to Ilok, did you meet Father Markos? And that's why I wanted to ask
10 you whether he was a priest of the Franciscan order or not.
11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... that we were speaking about
12 -- about the situation during the evacuation and problems with -- with
13 things there in the church.
14 JUDGE PARKER: We continue, Mr. Kypr, to miss the first part of
15 your answers. I know it's natural to respond immediately to the question,
16 but if you could try to pause. Thank you.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Kypr, would you be kind enough to repeat the whole answer, and
19 wait until I finish, and then after, make a little pause and then begin.
20 A. Okay. I remember that I was in the Catholic church and I was
21 speaking with the priest. Not only me, the -- the whole team. And we
22 were speaking about problems during the possible evacuation.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you talk with these priests sometime after the
24 evacuation as well?
25 A. I don't remember if I was there, but I remember that there was
1 some report afterwards.
2 Q. Do you remember whether the report said that people were slowly
3 returning to Ilok?
4 A. I don't remember, sir. But I remember the information from my
5 ambassador, means Czechoslovak ambassador, that Slovaks who remained
6 there, who decided to stay there, had certain problems.
7 Q. I would like you then, please, to read what it states in one of
8 the paragraphs of this report that you have in front of you. 10.30,
9 arrival at Ilok. What did the observer mission note down in that first
11 A. "Meeting at the JNA headquarters with Lieutenant Colonel Lazic
12 Radisa, and Lieutenant Egic Zdravko (German translate). The priest Father
13 Markos arrived after 15 minutes. Situation in Ilok is quiet. Some people
14 from Croatia (refugees) had come back. No numbers were given."
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr. I would now like to ask you something about
16 the document that was tendered yesterday as Exhibit 312. That's tab 17.
17 We'll just wait until we can see it on the screen.
18 JUDGE PARKER: This is Exhibit 312, I think.
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, that is what I said,
20 Exhibit 312.
21 Q. Mr. Kypr, can you please tell us if this report was drafted during
22 the peace conference held in The Hague.
23 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
24 Q. Now we have it.
25 A. Yes, sir, this document, as I can see quickly, there is no any
1 reference concerning the -- even you have mentioned. And I have no any
2 information about the situation, conferences in those days, because I have
3 plenty of work on the spot, so I can't follow those events. And even it
4 was a question for the head of mission or people from European Community.
5 I was only a part of that.
6 Q. Did you find out later, after the completion of your mission, that
7 The Hague peace conference was held in early November 1991?
8 A. Sir, I don't remember. Because after my mission I have to prepare
9 myself for another mission, and it was really very demanding.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr. Can you please tell me if you personally
11 took part in the drafting of this report. And if yes, what was your part
12 in the drafting of the report?
13 A. I don't remember, really. What I feel is that I had no time to --
14 to -- to speak with those people who came, at least -- at all, or I have a
15 very limited time for them, so they were speaking more with -- with other
16 people, probably.
17 Q. And the little time that you had at your disposal, did you find
18 out, since the investigation was balanced, as claimed in the document,
19 were there interviews with the Serb people who were in Ilok and did the
20 Croats who returned to Ilok also talk about, were they asked about the
22 A. [Previous translation continues] ... from lawyers and other
23 experts, and they kept their information from -- for themselves.
24 Q. So this was a special, a separate team, so you did not take part
25 in the gathering of this information. Did I understand you correctly?
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ... made in -- or built in Zagreb
2 headquarters, and as you can see in the report, they were working on many
3 places, not only in Ilok. And as I told you, I don't remember about my
4 cooperation with the team. I was not a part of the team, a member of the
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe it's time for a
9 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll adjourn now, resuming at five
10 past 4.00. I hope you will be able to finish by the end of the next
11 session, Mr. Vasic. Thank you.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
15 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Mr. Kypr, to go back to the document that we were talking about
17 before we took our break, can you please tell me, do you remember if the
18 observer team had their conversation with you in the period that the
19 report was being drafted; and what did you talk about, if you did talk?
20 A. [Previous translation continues] ... told you what I remember, but
21 not very firmly, that I had no many time -- much time for that. But I --
22 I cannot say if it was at all or -- or how long it was.
23 Q. Do you remember, if you remember, whether you talked about the
24 topics mentioned in the report, or are you perhaps not able to remember?
25 A. [Previous translation continues] ... discussion, so I can't
1 remember even the subject.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me if you remember whether, during
3 the implementation of your mission, you ever heard from people in the
4 field, from officers, about any actions to resettle or move out the
5 Croatian population? Do you recall anything like that?
6 A. If you can repeat the question, because it -- there is in English
7 text that I have heard from people in the field, from officers. I do
8 remember the discussion with the local administrative chief of Lovas, and
9 he has mentioned that.
10 Q. What about the JNA officers?
11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the administrative chief
12 means in quotation marks, because he established himself, or he was
13 elected locally in wartime.
14 Q. Yes, that is clear to me, but you didn't ever hear anything like
15 this from JNA officers, that's what my question was, this local
16 administrative chief in Lovas, you told us that already.
17 A. Today I -- I don't remember.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at this document. Can you tell us
19 if you know who sent this report from Zagreb. The document was sent from
20 Zagreb, wasn't it?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. And do you know what this abbreviation means on this document,
23 C-O-R-E-U, at the end of the text?
24 A. Yes. I already explained it. It is European Community at that
25 time, or European Union, information for other countries and especially
1 for so-called European correspondent, which is a special person from each
3 Q. Do you know if this document was used in the adoption of political
4 decisions by the Council of Europe or any other political bodies of the
5 European Community?
6 A. We - means Czechoslovakia - were no in that time a member of
7 European Union, or European Community. So I have no any information
8 concerning that.
9 Q. Do you know whether a draft of this report was sent to the
10 Belgrade regional centre before a final version was drafted, in order to
11 have their opinion of the text?
12 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
13 Q. Can you please tell me -- can you please repeat your answer.
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. Can you tell me if you remember whether you found a copy of this
16 document; and if so, where, or was the copy found by the Prosecution
18 A. According the symbols there, it is a copy, but this copy probably
19 is -- comes from original, because there is written hand, "Comment,
20 please." But I don't know if "P" is me, as -- as Petr, or if it means a
21 separate ambassador, I really don't remember.
22 Q. Thank you. It is clear to me. Do you remember whether you found
23 this document or not?
24 A. It belongs to -- to the file I copied in -- in Belgrade.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us then whether there are any notes on
1 which -- on the basis of which this report was compiled?
2 A. As I told you, it -- this team was very independent, and I was not
3 a member of the team, so I don't know the methods, procedures, and other
4 information about the work.
5 Q. Yesterday you responded to my learned colleague's question by
6 reading aloud the contents of this document. I'm interested in the
7 following: Did you ever personally, in the field, see the scenario
8 described in items 1 through to 6, as interpreted, as described?
9 A. Okay. Point 1: "Tensions, confusion and fear is built up by
10 military presence in the vicinity of the villages and by provocative
11 behaviour, controls, shootings." As concerns that, I believe that the
12 tension or the fear which was felt by the -- those inhabitants of Ilok was
13 there, because in the neighbourhood there were many clashes, shelling. A
14 lot of refugees came from those villages to -- to Ilok. So they have
15 brought the information. So if you wish to have an example, I believe
16 that it could be this one.
17 Next there is -- point 2: "Next, there is artillery and mortar
18 shelling for several days. This shelling is mostly aimed at the Croatian
19 part of the village. In this stage the churches are often hit and
20 destroyed." I don't remember that I was a witness of such a case.
21 3: "Nearly all of the cases JNA ultimata are issued, demanding
22 the collection and delivery of all weapons." I remember, probably in my
23 notebook, that there is all mentioned. So I believe that it's one of
24 examples that all weapons should be. But on the other hand, I remember
25 that in negotiation about Ilok evacuation, there was a possibility I -- I
1 -- I believe, for some people from local police to keep some small
2 weaponry, only to -- to -- to cover an order in the village or in the
4 Sorry, I am going through the text to find what do you want.
5 Q. Item 4 is next: "With or without the results of the ultimatum
6 issued, a military attack with tanks and infantry is carried out." Did
7 you ever see such a thing, as an observer?
8 A. To be correct, we were not on the spot, usually, where the action
9 was there, because we were prohibited to go there because of our safety,
10 and it was told from local authorities, it doesn't matter if it is JNA or
11 Croatian side. And it was by our book, by our guidelines that we have --
12 we mustn't go there where our security is in a threat.
13 Q. Did you know that the army remained inactive in such instances
14 when the weapons had been turned over; for example, in Ilok?
15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't know other cases.
16 May I repeat? In Ilok not, but I don't know other cases.
17 Q. Thank you for your assistance. I now wish to move to another
18 topic, and that is Vukovar. Could we please see Exhibit 316 on the
19 screen. That's tab 21.
20 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I just ask for clarification? I
21 think my learned friend did ask in relation to this document, there are
22 six heads, and I think that the witness was asked whether he had witnessed
23 personally, or was aware of his perception of those six heads. As far as
24 I can see, it has only got to four, but I don't know whether, in actual
25 fact, the other two, namely five and six, are subsumed within the answer,
1 where he says, "I don't another other cases." Now, I don't know if my
2 learned friend is going to go on with five and six, but just for my own
3 record, and perhaps the transcript may be clarified.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I can ask the witness about items 5
5 and 6 in any case. But the problem I have is that we no longer have the
6 document on the screen. But I would kindly ask the witness to go through
7 his own papers. Since this concerns a sequence of events, the witness
8 said he was not familiar with the events concerning some of the items,
9 hence I found it unnecessary to continue with my line of questioning.
10 THE WITNESS: Point number 5 on the second page of the document:
11 "At the same time or shortly after the attack, Chetniks entered the
12 village to 'finish the job.' Accounts vary then from murder, killing,
13 burning, looting and discrimination. Most of all elderly people who were
14 not able to flee are involved."
15 This concerns killing and burning. I believe that it's in the
16 case of Lovas, because we saw there many burned houses and we got a list
17 of, I don't know how many, 20 plus people who were killed. But I saw,
18 even -- even in other villages burned houses, but I can't say who or what
19 had happened, because it was afterwards when I came there and there were
20 no witnesses, at least which were able to -- to testify or to say
21 something, because people on the front line, they are afraiding all the
22 time what do we wish to -- to hear. It's -- they are afraiding of
23 everybody, even -- even of our mission, and it takes time to explain them
24 what we are, and so it was a problem.
25 And number 6: "Ilok was not destroyed. As such it represents an
1 asset with a functional value and served a showcase to the monitor team."
2 Yes, I believe that we did our best and we sent them unbelievable number
3 of teams. It was not before -- I don't remember that we did it in --
4 in such a way. So -- so we tried to cover the situation and to help the
5 people as much as possible.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr.
7 A. According the next paragraph, which is not numbered, the JNA
8 systematically denied any guilt referring to the armament of the
9 preparation and the provocative behaviour from their side."
10 Q. Mr. Kypr, we're interested in the six items to establish whether a
11 pattern existed. The next paragraph does not form a part of any of the
12 items, therefore we can stop with your answer here.
13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... asked me about things which
14 were mentioned in the document, not about paragraphs only. So it's why I
15 am trying to answer.
16 Q. Thank you. To move to Vukovar, I would kindly ask for Exhibit 316
17 to be displayed. Thank you.
18 Sir, please take a look at the first page with number 0381398.
19 Would you agree with me if I said that, as participants to the
20 negotiations on the 19th of November, 1995, there are Mr. Cunningham,
21 Mr. Brodin, Mr. Kypr, Mr. Reuters [phoen], Mr. Schou, and Mr. Henk van der
22 Gaag as the representatives of the mission, as well as Colonel Pavkovic
23 and Colonel Loncar, Colonel Memisevic, and Major Saric, and you thought
24 this was Major Zaric, and they represented the JNA. This is what can be
25 found in this particular report.
1 A. Yes, but the names were others, if I do remember. For instance,
2 the second name is Mr. Brodin, and Mr. Kanteres, if I do remember.
3 Q. Thank you. Can we please see Exhibit 320, please.
4 Mr. Kypr, for your sake and convenience, this is tab 22. On page
5 00381431, does it read the following: That Mr. Cunningham, Kanteres,
6 Schou and Kypr were members of the team on the 20th? And that contacts
7 were Colonel Pavkovic, Colonel Ivezic, General Jerko Crmenic, Major Zeljko
9 A. Yes, according names in the team, I can read that those are the
10 names in the team. And those names down on the page only -- only number 4
11 you have mentioned, Major Zeljko Koritnik, I don't know if he is -- or he
12 was a major. He was MUDR, means medicine doctor.
13 Q. Thank you. Would you be so kind as to take a look at your notes,
14 page 046 --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters apologise, we did not catch the
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. 0468-7772. Sir, you have your notes before you, I believe. Could
19 you tell us whether on this page, under Negoslavci, the 20th of November,
20 you made an entry mentioning Colonel Pavkovic and whether the entire
21 paragraph with three sentences had been put together with the name of
23 A. First question: Yes, I wrote it down. It's my hand. This -- the
24 name of Colonel Pavkovic. As concerns if it is connected with the name, I
25 don't know. Maybe.
1 Q. Perhaps you don't know whether this has any connection to what I
2 had in mind, but I wanted to know the following: Is this part of the
3 document split in two parts, one pertaining to Pavkovic and the other one
4 on page 0648-7772?
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, 7773.
6 A. If I am right, please, correct me if not. So between the sentence
7 that, "3 JNA soldiers who were captured, were taken out from the hospital,
8 they are in the Negoslavci hospital." And the abbreviation "Neg" means
9 Negoslavci, and the date, the 20th of November, there is a line which
10 means that the meeting or briefing in Negoslavci started from there --
11 from this line. So it is splitting those two text.
12 Q. Can you tell us where the next line appears in your text; after
13 which sentence?
14 A. It is after -- "General Raseta," are the last two words of the
16 Q. Therefore, the part between the two lines should form a singular
17 context, or rather, the same conversation, if I'm not mistaken?
18 A. I think so.
19 Q. Thank you. I presume Colonel Pavkovic was introduced to you, or
20 rather, he had to introduce himself before seeing you on the first time --
21 for the first time on the 19th of November. Do you remember that?
22 A. I really don't remember, because we have met so many people on the
23 front line in -- of various ranks and various capacities, so it was
24 hundreds of people.
25 Q. But your liaison officers who were there with you knew Colonel
1 Nebojsa Pavkovic and I presume they confirmed to you that he was indeed
2 the person, and perhaps they were the ones who put this name in your
4 A. [Previous translation continues] ... because it was written by my
5 hand, so I was told that it -- in that case it is -- it is Colonel
6 Pavkovic. But we haven't checked those names, and my notebook even was
7 only a part of the business. So other monitors were taking their notes
8 and I was following more the -- the subject, because I was working in both
9 languages, and they can follow the form, so persons and behaviour and so
11 Q. And when you were drafting the report, I believe you compared your
12 notes and those of the other members of the mission, such as
13 Mr. Cunningham and the rest, and then you compiled the report as a team
15 A. Yes, it was usual procedure.
16 Q. Thank you. Could we please see document 0D00-0219 in the original
17 on the screen? And the English translation, 0D00-0221. This is a report
18 of the Monitoring Commission dated the 19th of November, 1991. Could we
19 see the second page, please. Thank you.
20 On the second page we can read the following: "The group that
21 visited Vukovar spoke with Colonel Nebojsa Pavkovic, and was briefed in
22 detail on the evacuation of the wounded. Colonel Pavkovic used solid
23 arguments and in a convincing way removed any shadow of doubt on the part
24 of the monitors as to the ability of the members of the JNA to organise
25 and implement the agreed evacuation of those wounded in a fair way.
1 Colonel Pavkovic's talks with the monitors dealt with the treatment of
2 wounded members of Croatian paramilitary formations. The monitors were
3 told that they would be treated as prisoners of war and that their names
4 would be given to the Red Cross."
5 Sir, we can see in this report that on the 19th of November you
6 met with Colonel Pavkovic, and we can also see what the topic of
7 discussion was. Do you agree with me?
8 A. May I see the first page?
9 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the first page on the
10 screen, please.
11 THE WITNESS: Because you have mentioned the 19th, and the -- the
12 next text on the -- on the second page is speaking about the 18th, so I'm
13 surprised that -- the date 19th is before the 18th. So only -- only it's
14 why I am asking. Can you -- can you move the text further, please.
15 Q. If you take a look at the heading, you will see that the date
16 mentioned is the 19th of November, 1991. And in your report the
17 discussion mentioned is that on the 19th of November at 2.00 p.m.
18 A. But I can only say that the text is -- is done by the -- from JNA
19 side, so it's the explanation on -- or presentation like it was presented
20 by -- by the JNA or -- or as MOD, if you wish. According my remarks from
21 the 19th, and you have the translation of my remarks, so it's all I can
22 do, or maybe there is some report from the team. So there is the
23 statement of European Union Monitoring Mission, and there is a part of --
24 of my remarks concerning that -- that date. So it's what I have noticed
25 and what I do -- not remember, but what I -- what I wrote. I -- I
1 remember that as -- as generally, not the -- the -- that the sentence is
2 such as is written in the book. But I feel that -- that there was a long
3 discussion about that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we tender this
6 document as an exhibit, please?
7 MR. MOORE: Could I make application that it be marked for
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, it will be received for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, this will be marked for
11 identification, 330.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would just
13 like to know the reason for my learned friend's request. Is it the
14 authenticity or the content of the document that prompted this request?
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
16 MR. MOORE: Yes, I will. Firstly, the witness indicates an
17 element of surprise about the continuity of the particulars, and when one
18 reads the document, it seems that the European -- or the ECMM mission
19 members apparently were looking at the quality and quantity of combat
20 equipment that had arrived, that they would inspect newly arrived armoured
21 equipment -- perhaps if I just go through the various parts.
22 On the first page, two, third paragraph, there is reference to the
23 group spending the night at Ovcara. Then turning the page, the third
24 paragraph -- or the second again refers to Ovcara, there is the fact that
25 Monitor Mission members were sent a telex referring to the time and
1 quantity of combat equipment that arrived. And then the penultimate
2 paragraph there seems to be some suggestion about a political evaluation.
3 I'm not sure exactly to what that relates. And then finally it's been
4 agreed that in keeping with the agreement in the understanding, the
5 Monitor Mission will inspect the newly arrived armoured equipment of the
6 1st Brigade at 10.00 in the morning on the 20th of November, a time when
7 it seems to be that the ECMM are supposed to be at the bridge and on the
8 way to the hospital. And my understanding, from the evidence in chief,
9 that the scope of the monitoring mission was to basically merely monitor
10 and do nothing else. That is why I asked for it to be marked for
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 So the content, in very large part, is questioned.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Even though
15 this second part really does not have much to do with the Monitoring
16 Mission, but very well. Thank you.
17 MR. MOORE: May I just deal with one matter, and I should have
18 said it. If my learned friend has an original document which he has
19 access to and I can see, it may well be that I can assist him.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I can discuss this later
21 with my learned friend. We do have the documents with stamps, so I hope
22 that we will resolve this issue.
23 Could we now please have Exhibit 316 on the monitor, please. Page
24 -- it's page 2, 00381399. The next page is marked 00381399. Could we
25 please zoom in on the page. Thank you. The first two-thirds of the page.
1 Q. Mr. Kypr, you have that in tab 21. Can you please read what it
2 says in paragraph (d), items (1), (2) and (3). What did Colonel Pavkovic
3 say about why prisoners of war would not be permitted to leave with the
4 convoy? So could you please read items (1), (2) and (3).
5 A. Second sentence: "Colonel Pavkovic stated that prisoners of war
6 would not be allowed to depart, as:
7 "(1) the prisoners of war are under JNA control.
8 "(2) if he did --" or they did; I don't understand the
9 abbreviation -- "Serb irregulars/local citizens would attack the convoy.
10 "(3) the prisoners of war would be exchanged for JNA prisoners of
11 war at some future time."
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr. Could you please take your diary now and
13 look at page 0468-7763. Have you found it, this typed part? And there
14 you can see Vidic's proposals unclear in the English, after that it says,
15 "Prisoners of war from the National Guard and MUP will be exchanged for
16 our prisoners." Do you remember whether this was one of the proposals
17 that Marin Vidic stated in the negotiations?
18 A. Sir, the sentence is in original written in English, "Prisoners of
19 war from NG --" means National Guard Croatian, and "MUP" means Croatian
20 police -- "will be changed with our prisoners of war." So it means with
21 our prisoners of war, so I understand that it is told by the side of --
22 from the side of JNA. "Our prisoners of war." Because the first part of
23 the sentence is speaking that prisoners of war from NGO -- sorry, NG and
24 MUP. So it was told by -- by JNA, I believe.
25 Q. What about Mr. Vidic's proposals? Do you remember anything about
1 that? Because I can see that it's just a line above this one.
2 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. Sorry, sir, those remarks are only part of the whole discussion.
5 So it is not word-by-word if it is not important -- if I didn't feel that
6 it is important.
7 Q. Thank you. Can we go back to the page that is on the screen now,
8 and can we look at the bottom of the page. We're looking at the second
9 part of the page, paragraph 2. Mr. Kypr, do you see paragraph 2 on this
10 page, which begins with the words, "Involvement with the Red Cross." What
11 I'm interested in is does it state in the text, in the last two sentences
12 of this paragraph, "Paragraph 4 of the fax message is missing." Is that
13 what it says?
14 A. Sorry, sir, I -- it's really difficult to read Cunningham's
15 handwriting. If some of native English speakers there can -- can help us
16 with -- to read the original text from -- from the original copy, because
17 otherwise I -- I -- I can read the last sentence. It is, "Four Red Cross
18 teams will monitor move of refugees and hospital evacuation." But the
19 previous sentence is really difficult, at the end of that.
20 Q. Thank you. I can read to you what it says in the -- in
21 translation, which we received on page 03030939, and it says there:
22 "Paragraph 6 of the fax message is missing. Four teams of the RCB monitor
23 the transfer of refugees and the evacuation of the hospital." Does this
24 perhaps refresh your memory?
25 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the "Involvement with Red
1 Cross was very limited and I am not certain what agreements they have made
2 --" probably about writing list of wounded persons -- "to be moved or if
3 them have determined and agreed --" and I -- it's illegible for me, those
4 abbreviations. "The neutrality --" I don't know what does it mean.
5 "Paragraph 6 --"
6 MR. MOORE: I wonder if "PD" might mean "period." It's only a
8 THE WITNESS: After words of fax paragraph message, there is a
9 full stop. And next sentence starts with number "four" written, and then
10 there is the figure "4."
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. But we don't know what this abbreviation means, "IAW."
13 A. Sorry.
14 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Could we now shortly just go back to your
15 notebook, page number 0648-7774.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. 7774, but this is on the next page, because this number actually
18 covers two pages of the typed text. Where it says, "8.30 the colonel
19 spoke with the commander of the exchange zone." We're talking about
20 Colonel Pavkovic here, is that correct? And was this on the 20th of
21 November, 1991?
22 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
23 Q. Do you know whether -- please, could you repeat your answer.
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Do you know whether the commander of the exchange zone was the
1 chief of the staff of the 1st Military District, Colonel Vladimir
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. Thank you. Could we now have document 0D00-0223 on the monitor.
5 That's the English -- actually, the English version is 0D00-25 [as
6 interpreted] dated the 20th of November 1991. Again, it's a report of the
7 commission for monitoring the activities of the Monitoring Mission. Can
8 we focus on the bottom part of the page, please. Thank you.
9 Paragraph 2, monitor mission activities, it states: "The EC
10 Monitoring Mission today continued to monitor the evacuation activities of
11 the wounded from the Vukovar Hospital and refugees or the Croatian people
12 from Vukovar. A group of six monitors (three teams), was received in the
13 village of Negoslavci by Colonel Pavkovic, who informed them about the way
14 the location was organised. One of the teams was sent to Ovcara to join a
15 team of monitors who had spent the night there in order to monitor the
16 evacuation of refugees towards Croatia, as agreed between the units of the
17 JNA and the Croatian staff. The second observer team observed the
18 evacuation of the wounded from the Vukovar Hospital, while the third team
19 remained in Negoslavci in order to coordinate activities."
20 Is this something that took place on the 20th of November when
21 your three teams came to monitor the evacuation in Vukovar and the
22 evacuation of civilians who had spent the night at Ovcara and also to
23 monitor the evacuation from the Vukovar Hospital? And did Colonel
24 Pavkovic receive you on that occasion?
25 A. As I understand, there were many teams, and I don't remember in
1 detail their tasks. But it is covered by the -- I believe that there are
2 some documents which are covering that, as well as from Belgrade, as well
3 as from Zagreb, but in that time I have no -- really no time to -- to
4 follow all the situation. So what I can confirm, from this text, that one
5 team exactly then we came there as four persons, but we split it -- or
6 three persons, I don't know -- but we split it -- the team, and Dr. Schou
7 and me, we stayed there to follow the -- the evacuation of Vukovar's
8 hospital, and the rest, Cunningham and I don't know who else, have moved
9 to -- I don't know, to organise the whole thing and to communicate with
10 these other parts of ECMM.
11 Q. Do you have information that the convoy that set out in the
12 morning, the refugees and civilians' convoy that set off from Ovcara that
13 previously spent night in Morovic and which left Ovcara in the direction
14 of Vinkovci was fired upon by the Croatian side near Nustar? Are you
15 aware of that? We have a report of that from a journalist.
16 A. I -- now I -- I am thinking about one of remarks in my notebook,
17 and I -- I am not sure if it is the -- the reaction, but there somebody
18 from JNA, or in the name of MOD is complaining that Croatian side and --
19 but the sentence is not -- is not clear, but maybe it is connected there,
20 so it's -- it's what we were told. I cannot say because I was not on the
21 spot, I didn't see anything which was -- which was connected with this
22 case. So what is written in my notebook is only what -- what we were
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
1 this document as an exhibit, please.
2 MR. MOORE: I again would wish to have the document marked for
4 JUDGE PARKER: Similar position as for the last?
5 MR. MOORE: Yes. There is no evidence that any European monitor
6 was ever sent to Ovcara and I would wish the matter to be clarified with
7 regard to original documentation.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be marked for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document will be marked for
10 identification with the reference number 331.
11 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I hope to
12 resolve this with my learned friend, although there is a report that the
13 observer mission did monitor the convoy from Ovcara that day.
14 Q. Anyway, Mr. Kypr, for a moment I would like to discuss something
15 that you mentioned about your entry to the hospital, and you told my
16 learned friend about it, including information that some prisoners of war
17 had been taken out of the hospital. Can you please tell me, who told you
18 that, and when and what were the circumstances in which you were told, if
19 you recall?
20 A. I don't remember who told it, but I remember that it was the --
21 the first intention when we went into the hospital to find the -- the
22 manager of the hospital, which was Dr. Bosanac, according our knowledge.
23 Q. And when you asked about Mrs. Bosanac, who did you ask about her;
24 was it anybody from the staff or did you ask a patient? Who told you that
25 some people were taken away? Was it hospital staff, and where did they
1 tell you that, which part of the hospital?
2 A. I don't remember. There was dark in the cellar, and it was really
3 very dramatic situation, so I don't remember persons.
4 Q. Thank you. And after that, you informed the liaison officer, I
5 assumed it was Colonel Memisevic, about the fact that some people were
6 taken out of the hospital. He was your liaison officer who escorted you,
7 he was appointed by the SSNO.
8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... from our team. I don't know.
9 Q. You don't remember who it was. Did anybody from your team inform
10 your liaison officer?
11 A. I suppose so, because I -- I remember that some -- in some remarks
12 or -- it is mentioned, but now it's 16 years, so ...
13 Q. In response to a question by my learned friend yesterday, you told
14 us that after about an hour spent at the hospital, Colonel Cunningham went
15 to Belgrade to do something, to resolve the situation with the prisoners
16 of war who had been taken away from the hospital. Do you know where he
17 went in Belgrade; who did he go to?
18 A. As I remember, I said that Cunningham went to take care about
19 other convoy, plus to inform about that. And I -- I have to stress that I
20 am not sure about exact timing. So it could be half an hour or one hour.
21 I really don't know in those circumstances.
22 Q. I would like to know whether Mr. Cunningham told you where he went
23 in Belgrade, who did he go to see?
24 A. [Previous translation continues] ... for that.
25 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.
1 A. Sorry. No, he was a chief of monitors, and he was responsible for
2 those things.
3 Q. Thank you. To one of my yesterday's questions you replied that
4 you saw General Zivota Panic on several occasions. He was the
5 then-commander of the 1st Army region, and a part of his area of
6 responsibility included Vukovar; isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes, I remember a few meetings.
8 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you also said that immediately after your
9 return to Vukovar you attended a meeting with the representatives of the
10 press and they took your photographs there.
11 A. I don't remember the exact sentence, but I am not quite sure if
12 there were journalists. But I saw the footage of this meeting on Serb TV
13 afterwards. I know that there was a military reporter following those
14 events each time. I believe so, each time. And only in this case, as I
15 remember, the footage went -- went on TV.
16 Q. Thank you. Could we now please see document 0D00-0227 in the
17 original, and its translation into English 0D00-0228. This is another
18 report of the commission monitoring the Monitoring Mission activities, the
19 date the 23rd of November, 1991. Could we please zoom in on the lower
20 part of the page. Item 2, Monitor Mission activities. It states: "At
21 our request, the First Military District commander, Lieutenant General
22 Zivota Panic, today received the Belgrade-based European Monitor Mission
23 members, headed by Mr. Petr Kypr with whom he had long and friendly
25 Mr. Kypr, I want to know whether, during these conversations, you
1 told General Panic about your comments relating to the events at Vukovar
2 Hospital. Did you familiarise him with the situation?
3 A. The reason why we were - and "we" means European Union Monitoring
4 Mission -- were invited to headquarters, was that there was some
5 inappropriate behaviour of one of our teams. We had no evidence on that
6 except we got information from the other side and we have to check it, so
7 it was not sure what -- what will be our answer to that. I believe that
8 it's why it was me and Colonel Cunningham, or I don't know who else, but I
9 believe that it was Colonel Cunningham, because he is responsible for the
10 work of monitors. So he is responsible to answer that. So it was the --
11 the case we went there, and it -- it was why Ambassador Perrin was not
12 there, because we went there only in this particular case of violence of
13 some -- something. Which, afterwards, we saw that it's -- it's not true,
14 at least as I remember those allegations.
15 Q. During the conversation did you discuss the conduct in Vukovar?
16 That -- that was the topic, and whether the behaviour occurred in Vukovar,
17 and as I believe at the end it was established that it wasn't.
18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... this allegation was
19 concerning one of our team, or one of our monitors during their way with
20 this convoy, but I am not sure if it is convoy from Vukovar or from other
21 cases -- or from other places, sorry.
22 Q. Thank you. You explained why you were invited, but I'm interested
23 in the -- I'm not so interested in the detail as to the actual conduct of
24 the Monitoring Mission, but I wanted to know whether you told General
25 Panic what you had to say in relation to the evacuation from Vukovar
1 Hospital and that the POWs were taken away. Did you ask him where
2 Dr. Bosanac was, as well as some other staff?
3 A. According my knowledge, not -- we went there only for this
4 particular case. And it was up the head of mission how, and -- and our
5 headquarters in Zagreb, how and which way we will proceed the problem. So
6 we were sent there only to -- to speak about -- about those things.
7 Q. Thank you, sir.
8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to have this
9 document tendered as evidence.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 332.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. During examination-in-chief you said that the mission notified
14 some European countries related to the taking away of the POWs. Can you
15 tell us how that was done, via what channels; but first and foremost, do
16 you have any knowledge of that?
17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... on the spot, so it was -- it
18 was on -- on leaders of the -- of the mission, and what I remember is that
19 Ambassador Perrin was asking immediately to -- to have a contact with
20 Dr. Bosanac and he got it -- the permission, I think, after 15 days or
21 something like that, I -- I don't remember.
22 Q. Did Mr. Perrin tell you what the results of the effort undertaken
23 through the European Community and certain of its instances, and
24 concerning the attempts to find out about the fate of the POWs from the
25 General Staff of the JNA?
1 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
2 Q. Thank you. Could we please see 0D00-0242 in the original. The
3 English version is 0D00-0244.
4 This is another report of the Monitoring Commission overseeing the
5 activities of the ECMM, the date being the 22nd of November, 1991,
6 concerning the period from the 21st, because, as I believe the ECMM did
7 not send the report on that day, but rather there was a report that dealt
8 with the 21st and the 22nd together.
9 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry for interrupting my learned friend. On the
10 transcript I don't have any reply to the question that was posed at
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 Mr. Vasic, you might clear that up.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I would like
15 to thank my learned friend. I failed to notice that.
16 Q. Mr. Kypr, could you please take a look at the screen, page 46,
17 lines 17 to 20. The question was: "What were the results of the
18 activities undertaken by the Monitoring Mission through the European
19 Community and the JNA top staff?" What were the results, in your
21 A. What I know, that the case of -- of this alleged man was -- or has
22 disappeared in -- in -- so it -- there were no complaints afterwards, but
23 I am not really aware about the situation. So it -- it was the main --
24 the main purpose of the meeting, why we were asked to come to
25 headquarters. And I -- I cannot refer more about this document, because I
1 can see only preamble of the document, and not the -- the subject,
2 because --
3 Q. Sir, I believe we have misunderstood each other. I wanted to deal
4 with this document, but we omitted an answer in the transcript. I wanted
5 to clarify that first. My question was, do you have any knowledge as to
6 whether, after the information sent to the bodies of the European
7 Community and some of the states, as well as to the top staff of the JNA,
8 were there any results, that is whether the POWs taken away from the
9 Vukovar Hospital were found and whether it resulted in a -- in an ability
10 to find Dr. Bosanac and some of the staff of the hospital?
11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... one of those papers there is
12 -- there is a report about a meeting with Dr. Bosanac and there are
13 mentioned some prisoners of war, or -- or I am not quite sure if it is
14 this paper. So there is -- there is mentioned that there are -- there is
15 30 -- all personnel or prisoners of war, I'm not sure. So there is
16 certain document which has mentioned that, but according my knowledge, I
17 can't say anything, because it is not any more in my memory. So I -- I
18 can't say if there is any effect or -- and which one.
19 Q. Thank you. To go back to the document.
20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have some seven to ten
21 questions left. Would this be a good time for a break?
22 JUDGE PARKER: I was hanging on, waiting for you to reach your
23 last question, Mr. Vasic. You might look closely at the [microphone not
25 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, perhaps.
3 MR. MOORE: Could I just deal with two administrative matters? I
4 can deal with it now, or I can deal with it after my friend Mr. Vasic has
6 The first relates to Dr. Bosanac, who has now arrived in The
7 Hague. She's been recalled in relation to a document that was presented
8 to OTP when she came -- or we went to Vukovar in September. That is the
9 first part. We make no application to speak to her or proof her in
10 relation to that document.
11 There are, however -- there is a document which was disclosed
12 after she had concluded her evidence, which the Defence wished to ask some
13 questions of her in relation to that. As, indeed, there is Dr. Njavro,
14 who must conclude his cross-examination from Mr. Sljivancanin and
16 May I deal with the Dr. Bosanac point? And it is this: Because
17 it strikes into two other witnesses. Would the Court object if the
18 Prosecution are -- the Prosecution speak to any of the witnesses - and I
19 take Dr. Bosanac by way of example - prior to her coming in to giving
20 evidence only on the document which she was never ever spoken to about, or
21 does the Court wish us to provide the document to her, for the Prosecution
22 not to speak to her in any way, and for her just to be cross-examined on
23 document and that alone? And I seek the Court's guidance in relation to
25 JUDGE PARKER: Can it be clarified, is this a document which you
1 discovered and disclosed after her evidence?
2 MR. MOORE: That's correct. And it applies to two other
4 JUDGE PARKER: Do any Defence counsel wish to speak in respect of
5 that? Mr. Vasic, Mr. Borovic, Mr. Lukic? Mr. Lukic is standing. He is a
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] But a few words, Your Honour. We have
8 been asked by the OTP as to our position relating to this topic. Our
9 position will be that we will rely on what will be put forward by the
10 Chamber pertaining to the documents disclosed under Rule 68. If we were
11 to go into detail we would have to ask for some additional information
12 from the OTP as to when they took possession of those documents, whether
13 they had those documents when they were proofing their witness; but in any
14 case, we will go with the Chamber's decision. And this pertains
15 exclusively to those witnesses who had concluded their evidence but are
16 now being recalled. And Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence will use its right of
17 discretion to examine the one witness that is important for us, and we are
18 of the position that the OTP should and must not be allowed to communicate
19 with him regarding the document.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Are you putting there that in respect of the one
21 witness who is still the subject of cross-examination, that you would
22 object to any discussion? Is that the point you're making?
23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. Njavro. We haven't even
24 begun examining him and we believe that the OTP shouldn't be allowed to
25 communicate with him at all.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the Chamber would allow the Prosecution
3 to speak to a witness who is recalled in the circumstances we're dealing
4 with but only regarding the fresh document, but would indicate an
5 exception in the case of Dr. Njavro. If you want an opportunity to speak
6 to Dr. Njavro, you must seek that after the conclusion of
7 cross-examination and before your re-examination.
8 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. That's very helpful. May I deal
9 with the second point? It's quite simply this, and it is -- it may come
10 as some surprise to the Court, but with regard to Ambassador Kypr, that
11 was -- there are a number of documents, and it took quite a lengthy period
12 of time in chief. Those documents still exist and Dr. Schou is the next
13 witness. What we are trying to do is minimise all the documentation for
14 Dr. Schou. Much of it is duplicated but there are some other original
15 documents. He is here, we are trying to, as I say, refine the list. And
16 I wonder, bearing in mind that I suspect the cross-examination of
17 Ambassador Kypr will go well into the day tomorrow, whether Dr. Schou
18 could commence on Thursday morning immediately? Even if it does mean a
19 slightly shorter day tomorrow, because we can save a lot of time by
20 dealing with those documents.
21 JUDGE PARKER: That will be convenient, especially encouraged by
22 the thought that it could save the very great deal of time that was
23 unfortunately taken as we dealt with the documents with the present
24 witness. Something is getting feedback from somewhere, I'm not sure from
25 where. I see the culprit, he's turned off the microphone. Very well.
1 There's still a bit of echo, but not as bad. Yes.
2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Were they the only two points?
4 MR. MOORE: Yes, they were. Thank you very much.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Mr. Vasic.
7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Based on your
8 directions, I no longer wish to put questions to the witness regarding --
9 regarding the document that was on the screen. Could we now instead see
10 0D05 --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Did you mean to tender that document?
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The one that is on
13 the screen, we didn't even deal with it. And for the reasons of
14 efficiency and economy, I will move on to another document.
15 JUDGE PARKER: We have an adjournment, and other things, counsel
16 have a different understanding of what has happened. Very well.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. The number is
18 0D05-01 -- no, 0060, in the original. And 0D05-063 [as interpreted] in
19 the B/C/S.
20 Q. For you, Mr. Kypr, that's tab 27. Thank you. Sir, I believe
21 you've already found that document in your collection. As far as I can
22 see, this is a report on the evacuation of the hospital in Vukovar, dated
23 21st and 22nd of November, put together by Mr. Cunningham, I believe.
24 A. Yes, the first page is -- has an authority signature Cunningham.
25 And in the text there are probably remarks of Colonel Cunningham as well.
1 Q. Thank you. I believe my colleagues will deal with this topic in
2 more detail, but I'm interested in only two things regarding that.
3 Perhaps we could now look at page 00381349, that's the second comment,
4 item 2, states: "EC monitors should not be prohibited from participating
5 in any activity, no matter what the phase of the activity and either
6 before or after the activity. And such activities should include only
7 those that demand their monitoring. During the evacuation in Vukovar, we
8 were forbidden to meet with the hospital management the evening before
9 evacuation, based on the orders of Admiral Brovet, and through our JNA
10 liaison officer."
11 That's what the report states?
12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... written in the document.
13 Q. Thank you. Another thing that interests me in this document is to
14 be found on page 00381428 concerning the convoy. This is item 5: "At
15 approximately 06.45 hours, Schou and Kypr departed SM --" that is Sremska
16 Mitrovica -- "for Vukovar to obtain the remaining patients. This part of
17 the evacuation is covered by Kypr's report. Loading of the wounded from
18 SM started at approximately 0810 and it was completed by 1100. Of note,
19 the JNA assisted from senior captains to the lowest enlisted rank.
20 Despite very hazardous slippery conditions, no patient was caused
21 additional injury through poor handling. The convoy departed
22 approximately at 11.15 and arrived at the meeting point at 12.22. No
23 convoy on the Croat side in sight. As well, the handover point was
24 located in a very poor place as the road was narrow with no manoeuvreing
25 room. As a result, it was decided to move the handover location to
1 Dvorovi, some distance down the road where there was sufficient room to
3 Sir, is this what this item states?
4 A. Yes, it is written originally in English text.
5 Q. Thank you. I wanted to read another passage from the document to
6 be found among the several final sentences of this paragraph, that is item
7 5. "At the conclusion of the handover, the people attending the meeting
8 were one Croatian doctor, Colonel Pavkovic, a senior monitor from Zagreb,
9 and myself to confirm that all dealings with the wounded had been carried
10 out in a professional manner. All parties, especially the Croat medical
11 personnel, agreed that the wounded had been accorded every consideration
13 Mr. Kypr, were you able to locate this portion?
14 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is written there. Sorry, sir.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may suggest to have
19 this document tendered as an exhibit.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit Number 333, Your Honours.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Could we please have another document
23 on the screen, 0D05-0100 in the original, and its B/C/S translation,
25 Q. Mr. Kypr, this is report QV-18. I don't think it's in the binder
1 forwarded by our learned colleague, therefore, I don't believe it's in any
2 of the tabs that we have. With the assistance of the usher, I can provide
3 a hard copy for you. It will probably be easier for you to read than
4 reading from the screen. Thank you.
5 Sir, this is a report on the activities of the Monitoring Mission
6 on the 27th, that is on the 24th of November, 1991. First of all, were
7 you personally involved in this visit to Vukovar on the 24th of November,
9 A. I believe that the date is the 27th, but I cannot guarantee that.
10 Q. I didn't understand. Were you in Vukovar on the 27th? I believe
11 this document concerns the 27th.
12 A. I don't remember if I were in -- in -- in Vukovar.
13 Q. In the title the date of the 27th of November is mentioned. I
14 wanted to draw your attention to item 1. It says, "Situation in Vukovar.
15 As previous report, the 24th of November." Does that mean that there was
16 another report about the 24th of November as to the activities of the
17 Monitoring Mission in Vukovar? Could you please repeat your answer.
18 A. Probably, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Could you please turn to page 00381448. (A) of the
20 report states: "Dr. Ivankovic doesn't know anything about what's
21 happening with the hospital. 'I have nothing to do with that.' I don't
22 know anything about the bodies around the hospital. As for Dr. Bosanac,
23 he said that she had made an ideological hospital and created a fortress
24 out of it. From the roof there was firing at planes and also mortars were
25 fired. Our team was not able to find any evidence of that on the roof.
1 He doesn't know how many people were arrested in the course of the
2 evacuation. According to the doctor, there were about 100 to 150 members
3 of the National Guard."
4 Can you please confirm that this is written in this part of the
6 A. Yes, this is written in the text of report.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr. I would also like to draw your attention to
8 another part, which is on the next page, 00381449, and it refers to Luzac.
9 It states: "The village was not as destroyed as Vukovar. There are a few
10 houses that have been hit, but not destroyed because they were only hit
11 with light weapons. We had contact with Captain Dragomir Lalic, the
12 commander of the Territorial Defence. He told us that about 500 out of a
13 total of 1.000 inhabitants have already returned."
14 Mr. Kypr, is this what it says in this report?
15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the copy.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
18 -- again, I apologise.
19 Q. Mr. Kypr, could you please repeat your answer.
20 A. Yes, it is written in the original text of the copy I received.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to tender
23 this document as an exhibit.
24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 334.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Kypr, you told us that you were in charge of monitoring the
3 media, the news programmes which were broadcast, both in Serbia and in
4 Croatia at the time; is that correct?
5 A. It was possible only for Serb TV, because we cannot see Croatian
6 TV in -- in our places.
7 Q. Did you read the Croatian press at that time?
8 A. Some pieces, if it was possible. If we got them.
9 Q. I'd like to know if you were aware that shortly before the fall of
10 Vukovar - so in late November, 1991 - the media published a news item
11 about children that were killed in a Vukovar kindergarten, about a
12 necklace made by a member of the HDZ made out of children's fingers. Are
13 you aware of such items that were published in the media?
14 A. Yes, I do remember that it was on -- in Serb media, but I cannot
15 precisely say if it was on TV or in the press. And, to be precise, I
16 cannot follow each day TV, because you can see that sometimes there were
17 negotiations or other tasks even in the evening, so it was not possible to
19 Q. Mr. Kypr, can you please tell me if you possibly heard from the
20 Croatian media about a Croatian government meeting of the 17th of
21 November, 1999 [as interpreted] when it was discussed whether Marin
22 Vidic's request should be granted to negotiate with Goran Hadzic?
23 A. No, I don't remember.
24 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell me if, during your stay in Zagreb,
25 you learned about the arrest of the Labrador Group. It was an
1 intelligence group.
2 A. I don't remember.
3 Q. And my last question: Did you ever discuss with the other
4 European observers' team about the problems that the turning back of the
5 convoy had near Lipovac and then the firing at the convoy near Nustar,
6 what problems that created as far as the organisation was concerned. The
7 convoys were forced to move around in that area, and then finally they
8 reached Bosnia, and later Croatia through Sremska Mitrovica.
9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...
10 Q. Thank you, sir.
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Please repeat your answer.
13 Mr. Kypr, thank you for your answers, and I have no further
14 questions for you. Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic.
16 Ms. Tapuskovic.
17 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 We'll just wait a little bit. Your Honours, we're also getting used to
19 the new courtroom. It's our first day, it's not so easy, but we'll
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kypr. I am Mira Tapuskovic,
23 I am one of the Defence attorneys for Mr. Radic. And in the time that we
24 have left until 7.00, I'm going to be asking you a number of questions.
25 During the examination-in-chief, and in response to questions by
1 my learned friend Mr. Vasic, you provided an explanation several times
2 about what your mandate was. So, to repeat, your mandate, or your tasks
3 were delineated in the memorandum of understanding which was signed after
4 the Brioni Agreement.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your assignments at the time were to observe the developments in
7 the field, and you had the option of communicating with both sides or with
8 a number of sides in the conflict. Did I understand that correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It was also your task to mediate, in a way, between the sides to
11 the conflict?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As part of that assignment did you also believe that it was your
14 duty or obligation to submit reports on possible violations of the
16 A. May I ask you, ma'am, which agreement do you mean?
17 Q. The memorandum of understanding is what I was thinking of.
18 A. I believe so. Because it was the case where -- when, for
19 instance, JNA was complaining that one of our monitors committed -- or
20 violated the -- the rules, so we received this message, and we reacted.
21 Q. Thank you. When you were questioned in the Dokmanovic case, you
22 said that one of your tasks was to provide conditions for convoys, meaning
23 not only the convoy that was going from Vukovar, but convoys in general
24 that were being planned at that time, also from the territory of Croatia.
25 Is this correct?
1 A. We were the only impartial body which was respected from both
2 sides. So using this trust from both sides, we were asked to -- to cover
3 those convoys with -- with our presence, to -- to improve the common
4 trust, let's say, or to assist.
5 Q. Thank you. So that you could carry out this task that you were
6 given, you had to cooperate very closely in the field with the
7 International Committee of the Red Cross, right?
8 A. Yes or not. Because there are two things: One is that rules of
9 International Red Cross, Geneva Conventions, it belongs to very old, very
10 valid system of humanitarian aid and help and on -- on the front line, in
11 prisons, and so on and so on. So it's -- their task is much, much wider
12 than ours and covers almost all humanitarian questions. We were very
13 limited, and I have guide-lines for monitors that -- that this part of the
14 business should be handover or run by -- by International Red Cross
15 because they have more personnel, and they're equipped by the law and by
16 -- by even respect from -- from sides. European Union mission was very
17 new at that time in the territory and had a very limited mandate.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you answer my question whether you communicated in
19 the field as well as in other areas, or did you have any kind of formal
20 contacts with the International Committee of the Red Cross?
21 A. According formal contacts, I don't remember. But it happens
22 because formal contacts are usually on the top of the mission. So it was
23 done, and I remember some documents which are relating to that, that it
24 was done in Zagreb, from our headquarters in Zagreb there was the official
25 contact. We were cooperating with International Red Cross, or we have met
1 with -- with representatives in -- I remember during some meetings. One
2 of them was the 18th or 19th of November in Negoslavci. But still, and
3 you can see in Colonel Cunningham's remarks that they insisted to do their
4 job, and it is understandable, alone. It is understandable because their
5 rules are another than ours, and the incompatibility of tasks and rules is
6 a problem.
7 Q. Very well, thank you. I would now like you to turn to tab 27,
8 please, and to go to page 00381429, and that's page 2 out of total of 3
9 pages. We have comments there, and messages, or lessons learned. And
10 then in item 1 I'm going to read to you the following: "[In English] If
11 the ICRC is to be involved in any associated activity with the EC
12 monitors, then their part must be completed as agreed." [Interpretation]
13 In parentheses, it says: "(Paragraph 6 of the fax message referred.)"
14 Mr. Kypr, and I'm concluding it correctly, I hope, if I say that
15 based on this paragraph you can see that it was indispensable to have
16 joint activities, or linked activities by the International Committee of
17 the Red Cross and European Community observers in the field, if I
18 understand that correctly.
19 A. Yes, it is. And we insisted a few times, I remember, that -- that
20 we wished to have a cooperation with this ICRC. And -- okay.
21 Q. Can you then, please, tell us, because you said that there were
22 some contacts, and that this was an organisation that we are very familiar
23 with. How many staff did the International Committee of the Red Cross
24 have in the area covered by the observer mission, especially in the area
25 covered by the regional centre from Belgrade that were you a part of?
1 A. I don't know, and really I -- I -- I am convinced that I haven't
2 got such an information. I remember one remark concerning four Red Cross
3 cars in -- in some Cunningham's report, but I -- I can't tell because it
4 was their job.
5 Q. I was asking you about the number of staff, not the level of their
6 equipment, but if you don't know, then that's fine.
7 Yesterday - and this is reference for my colleagues; page 6.643 -
8 you said that the task of the International Committee of the Red Cross was
9 to go to the hospital to draft a list of the patients and to draw up an
10 evacuation scheme or plan. Do you remember that?
11 A. I do remember the -- it was not report, but guide-lines coming
12 from Zagreb to Belgrade where it is mentioned that they will be in -- in
13 the hospital at 8.00 p.m. and that they will provide us with a list of --
14 of people there.
15 Q. Can you tell us a little bit more about the instruction that the
16 regional centre from Belgrade received from Zagreb?
17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... find it in few minutes.
18 Q. Mr. Kypr, could you please repeat your answer, because it was not
19 registered in the transcript.
20 A. I believe that this -- those guide-lines came from Zagreb and it's
21 a part of -- of the documentation, I believe so. So we can go through and
22 we can find it.
23 Q. No, it's not necessary. We just need to bring this paper part to
24 the smallest degree possible. What I would like to know is that when you
25 were in the regional centre in Belgrade, were you informed about the
1 activities that the International Committee of the Red Cross was supposed
2 to implement out in the field? Yes or no.
3 A. As I told, there is -- there is this information somewhere in the
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kypr, I would now like you to look at tab 25.
6 This is a document, Vukovar 9 - this is so that my colleagues can keep
7 track of where we are - and that's Exhibit 321. If I remember correctly,
8 yesterday you said that this document was most probably drafted in the
9 Zagreb centre; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Just to be sure, these are pages 00381417.
12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... first page of report.
13 Q. Very well. This report was most probably drafted on the basis of
14 the reports of the teams and the regional centres. Is my conclusion
16 A. I cannot say what are all those resources. I believe that the
17 main part of resources comes from regional centres or from monitoring
18 teams, but there can be even -- even other meetings of -- of -- in
19 headquarters, and so on, so I cannot testify what is the source of that.
20 Q. Can we now look at page 2 out of a total of 8 pages of this
21 document, and that's English ERN number 00381418. Have you found it? At
22 the top of the page, it says, "Team reports." Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. After that, we have item 7.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. "[In English] Teams from Zagreb and Belgrade supported from
2 Sarajevo were all heavily involved in the convoys and their reports are as
4 [Interpretation] This item 7, as an introduction, does that
5 confirm that this report was compiled on the basis of team reports from
6 Zagreb, Belgrade and Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes, I am sure that at least the first part is -- is based on --
8 on reports of teams. Conclusions, observations can be done even in
9 Zagreb, I -- I don't know the -- the author of that. But it can come even
10 -- even from -- from reports of monitors.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kypr. I would kindly ask you to go to page 2 of 8
12 in the same document. The number of the English text is ERN 00381418.
13 418. There is paragraph 7, let us now move to the next page, 419, subitem
14 (b). It states, "Teams Belgrade/Sarajevo." That's page 3 of 8. (ii),
15 that is a second item under subitem (b), reads the following: "[In
16 English] Loading of the sick, wounded, and staff took until 1430 hours and
17 was described as disorganised and chaotic, with no visible action by the
18 ICRC apart from arguments with the military representatives."
19 [Interpretation] Is this what is stated in this item?
20 A. Yes, it is written on there.
21 Q. Would you agree that this was the opinion of two teams, that of
22 Belgrade and that of Sarajevo, stating that there was no visible action on
23 the part of the International Committee of the Red Cross?
24 A. No, I don't think that -- you have mentioned -- you have mentioned
25 Sarajevo. And I don't think that team from Sarajevo was in -- in
1 Vukovar's hospital, so they cannot comment that.
2 Q. Could you please go one item above the one I read out. I read out
3 (ii), and then we have (i), and then a heading, subitem (b), it says,
4 "Teams Belgrade/Sarajevo."
5 A. Yes, the first paragraph speak about two teams went to Vukovar.
6 It depends -- I don't know which -- which teams it were, because it --
7 maybe it is because the team was splitted afterwards, so I -- I don't
8 know. I -- I don't remember other team, but in those circumstances ...
9 Q. All right, thank you. Could we now move to page 6 of 8 in this
10 document. ERN number 00381422. Did you find that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At the top of the page the heading is, "Observations." Below it
13 begins with item 9, and then we have subparagraphs (a) through (g), and
14 could we please look at (g) itself. "[In English] The absence of any
15 focal point of the ICRC."
16 A. Yes, it is written in the document.
17 Q. [Interpretation] I apologise, I don't mean to rush with my
18 questions, but could you please explain something. This is a joint
19 report. What does it mean, then, when it says, "The absence of any focal
20 point for overall control of the ICRC"?
21 A. I don't know what does it mean, I can only speculate.
22 Q. Thank you. Please go back to page 7 of 8 -- no, I believe this
23 was that. Let's go to page 6 of 8, so that we could conclude with this
24 document before we adjourn for today. ERN 00381422. First we have
25 "Observations." Did you find that, Mr. Kypr?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I will read item 8. "[In English] All teams involved in this
3 exercise, including the tasking cell Zagreb, produced similar lists of
4 observations as follows."
5 [Interpretation] Is that what the document states?
6 A. Yes. It is written there.
7 Q. All right. Let us go down to subparagraph (e). You mentioned
8 this paragraph yesterday on page 6643, for my learned friends. I will
9 read out aloud again the subparagraph. "[In English] The ICRC must honour
10 their role, in accordance with any agreement, for humanitarian convoys and
11 not become agitated and aggressive at the first sign of trouble."
12 [Interpretation] You said yesterday that the representative of the
13 ICRC behaved aggressively. Would you doubt what is stated in subparagraph
14 (e), having in mind that this was something that several teams in the
15 field observed, as stated in item 8 at the top of the page?
16 A. I don't know if there was another argument or any other case which
17 can be presented like something like that. So I -- I cannot say that this
18 is the observation of other teams, because I -- I don't know if other
19 teams were involved in moments where -- where Red Cross was there. So I
20 cannot confirm that or deny that.
21 Q. All right.
22 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's past 7.00
23 p.m., and I believe it is a good time for adjournment, and I believe we
24 resume tomorrow in the morning.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Yes, it is tomorrow morning at 9.00 in
1 this courtroom.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
4 March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.