Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6747

1 Wednesday, 29 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Unfortunately, Judge

7 Van Den Wyngaert is not able to sit today. The expectation is that she'll

8 be able to sit again by next Monday. Under the Rules Judge Thelin and I

9 think it is in the interests of justice to continue the hearing in her

10 absence. She will, of course, be able to review the transcript and, if

11 necessary, the tapes of the evidence, so that she can become familiar with

12 what has occurred in her absence.

13 Morning, Mr. Kypr. May I remind you of the affirmation which

14 still applies.

15 Ms. Tapuskovic.


17 Cross-examination by Ms. Tapuskovic: [Continued]

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning

19 Mr. Kypr.

20 I am about to pick up where I left off yesterday. I was asking

21 you questioned about the interaction between the monitoring mission as a

22 whole, especially the Belgrade regional headquarters, and the Red Cross,

23 the International Committee of the Red Cross. We finished yesterday with

24 Vukovar 9, tab 25, 321, Exhibit 321. So, Mr. Kypr, if you could please

25 have that document ready. As we saw yesterday, there is no date on that

Page 6748

1 document. All we have is the fax number in the upper left corner. It was

2 probably sent sometime in December of 1991, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. This document is called "Vukovar relief mission, 20 to 22

5 November." Could you now please turn to page 2. There is a total of

6 eight pages in this document. Please go to page 2. The number for the

7 English is 00381418. Sir, can you see in the upper left corner a title

8 which says "Team reports."

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The paragraph is marked with number 7. It says that: "[In

11 English] Two teams supported from Sarajevo were all heavily involved in

12 the convoys and their reports are as follows."

13 [Interpretation] Is that an accurate reading of paragraph 7, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. Following that we have under (a) team Alpha and

16 Charlie, and on the next page marked, the last four digits, 1419, we have

17 item (b): "[Previous translation continues] ... [In English] And

18 Sarajevo."

19 [Interpretation] Since this is in the plural, it seems to imply

20 that there were several teams involved. Would that be a fair assessment,

21 sir?

22 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, there is something

24 in the transcript, I'm talking about line 17, under item (b) it should

25 be: "Teams Belgrade and Sarajevo." Thank you.

Page 6749

1 Q. Now, if we could please go to page of this document, the last

2 three digits of the ERN number is 432. At the top of that page we

3 read "Conclusions." Is that, sir? Am I right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Am I right, Mr. Kypr, to conclude, that the conclusions are in

6 relation to the reports of all the teams that I have just mentioned?

7 A. I told you yesterday that I am not aware what are the -- the all

8 resources of -- for conclusions for -- for this report. So it is maybe,

9 and I am convinced that mostly there are used as a basis or resource is --

10 are reports from monitoring teams, but I am not aware about the procedure

11 in Zagreb, so I cannot say if there are other resources involved.

12 Q. Thank you. I remember you answered yesterday, but we did

13 establish that this was a joint report, and that it was sent from the

14 headquarters of the monitoring mission, the one in Zagreb, which comprised

15 all the teams, the Sarajevo, Zagreb and Belgrade teams, as well as any

16 other local teams. Let us, however, go back to our conclusions. I'm

17 talking about item 9 at paragraph 9 in the same page. Paragraph 9

18 reads: "[In English] The humanitarian convoy was hampered throughout its

19 operation by."

20 [Interpretation] Colon. Do you agree with me that under

21 paragraph 9 we have items (g) through (g)?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. We'll go back to paragraph (g), which is something that we talked

24 about yesterday. I would like to round this off. This is something that

25 we had interrupt yesterday. Paragraph (g) reads: "[In English] The

Page 6750

1 absence of any focal point for overall control, i.e., the ICRC."

2 [Interpretation] Sir, this is my last question in relation to this

3 document. Do you agree with me that in this way the Zagreb-based

4 monitoring mission or the mission as a whole, not just the Belgrade team,

5 expressed a number of complaints to the International Committee of the

6 Red Cross about their actions and behaviour and about the way they

7 influenced the success of the humanitarian convoy?

8 A. I don't understand this sentence or this paragraph (g) in this

9 sense.

10 Q. That's fine, I'm happy with that kind of answer, sir. You said it

11 yourself, after all, you can't always be able to know what somebody else

12 meant when writing reports on behalf of the monitoring mission. You were

13 not a member of each and every one of those teams, were you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. By that same token, you were not involved in drafting each and

16 every one of these reports, were you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I will not ask you any further questions about these ICRC

19 documents. My learned friends will ask you more questions about this

20 during their own cross-examination.

21 I would like to ask you something else now, sir. Would you agree

22 with me that to a certain degree there was competition in -- in terms of

23 remit, and especially in terms of interests between the ECMM and the ICRC

24 in Croatia?

25 A. I don't think so. Our capacities were very limited, and we would

Page 6751

1 be very happy if any other body is able to fulfill all possible assistance

2 on the spot.

3 Q. And do you have any conclusions as to whether all these reports

4 and every single time the ICRC has mentioned the references that we've

5 been through, can these perhaps provide an overall picture indicating that

6 the ICRC did not meet the standards of success on the ground that are

7 usually expected in situations like these?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ... please.

9 Q. Of course I can, sir. Would you agree with me that after all

10 these reports covering the various activities undertaken by the ICRC we

11 may conclude that the ICRC did not fully meet the standards that its

12 situation would normally have required?

13 A. I already told you that ECMM didn't know everything about the work

14 of International Red Cross, because International Red Cross is very

15 independent and must be a very independent organisation. So I don't think

16 that you are right.

17 Q. I agree with you, sir, when you suggest that the International

18 Red Cross is an independent organisation; entirely so, in fact. But I

19 think you might agree with me that in your reports you made continuous

20 assessments of their work, not as a matter of principle, but by judging

21 specific situations that occurred in Croatia?

22 A. I know report of Colonel Cunningham, for instance, from Vukovar.

23 But I cannot say, or I cannot confirm the word "constantly"

24 or "continuously". And in Vukovar it was visible that International

25 Red Cross couldn't fulfill its duty, because both, as International

Page 6752

1 Red Cross representatives, as ECMM monitoring mission, we were blocked

2 before the bridge and we couldn't go to the spot, to the hospital.

3 Q. Thank you, sir. We'll move on to something altogether different

4 now.

5 Can we please go to tab 7? The document is E5. I think 305,

6 Exhibit 305 and 306. You agree with me, sir, that this is a report of

7 team 6, dated the 12th of October, 1991?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. You were a member of that team at the time, weren't you?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Sir, the document that you have in front of you, is it not made up

12 of two similar documents? Or, rather, was it written by another member of

13 the same team that you were a part of?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Waters from

15 United Kingdom, but I am not sure. Definitely it is not my handwriting.

16 Q. That's fine. Can you please go to paragraph 4 of that document,

17 page 3 out of a total of four pages, the ERN number in English 00381363.

18 This is a document about the situation in Ilok and about preparations for

19 an evacuation in Ilok; is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Among other things, whoever wrote this document probably a

22 colleague, Mr. Waters, referred to the situation, or rather to refugees

23 from the village of Lovas, right?

24 A. Yes, there is written that many of them were from Lovas.

25 Q. That's right. Can you please go to the very last sentence of that

Page 6753

1 paragraph? Or I could just read it aloud to you. "[In English] We asked

2 for accurate number of refugees to be prepared soon."

3 [Interpretation] Do you remember that sort of request being made

4 by the monitors?

5 A. I don't remember that, but it is obvious if we are -- if we have

6 to be prepared for some event or some situation, we have to know as much

7 as possible.

8 Q. Are you perhaps familiar with the fact that a list with this

9 approximate figure of Lovas refugees was ever forwarded to the monitoring

10 mission office in Belgrade?

11 A. No, I don't remember.

12 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that a document like this was

13 submitted directly to the Zagreb headquarters of the ECMM?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 Q. Was a request made to have such a list at a later stage, perhaps?

16 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

17 Q. Mr. Kypr, can you please confirm that you said "I don't know" in

18 answer to the previous two questions? Thank you.

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

20 Q. Sir, can we please now go to tab --

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, again, the answer

22 was not recorded. The answer to my previous question. My question

23 was: "No" -- the witness answered no to both my previous questions. He

24 said he didn't know, or rather that he did not know.


Page 6754

1 JUDGE PARKER: I understand from that that you agree that your

2 answer was no to both previous questions; is that correct, Mr. Kypr?

3 THE WITNESS: That I -- sorry. Your Honours, I -- I answered, "I

4 don't know."

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

6 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies to everybody, Your

7 Honours. I am getting ahead of myself with my questions. I will try to

8 have no further part in this confusion.

9 Q. Mr. Kypr, can we now please go to tab 13? This is document L-1.

10 It's in relation to Lovas. 309 is the exhibit number. This document was

11 produced on the 18th of October, or rather it was sent on the 18th of

12 October 1991, wasn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. The document refers to a visit made by the team to the village of

15 Lovas, among other villages; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. On that day you were with your colleague, Mr. Cunningham. You

18 went to five different villages: Sarengrad, Opatovac, Bapska, Mohovo, and

19 Lovas, did you not?

20 A. There is missing in transcription Mohovo. Yes.

21 Q. If you can please have a look, sir, it's midway through the report

22 somewhere, there's a sentence that reads: "[Previous translation

23 continues] [In English] ... stopped."

24 A. Yes, I see that.

25 Q. The transcript should reflect the fact that I quoted the portion

Page 6755

1 of the relevant text. It says: "The team stopped."

2 Mr. Kypr, I'll just read that sentence out to you. "[In English]

3 The team stopped in Lovas and met with several local authorities."

4 [Interpretation] You remember that meeting, right?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

6 Q. Can you perhaps remember where and --

7 A. There is no -- my answer, yes, that I remember that meeting.

8 Q. Can you remember where the meeting was held with the people from

9 Lovas?

10 A. I don't remember exactly it could be a school or some pub, because

11 rooms were relatively vague, so ...

12 Q. Do you perhaps remember how many persons attended, a rough figure

13 at least?

14 A. From our side we were two. There were on the left side sitting

15 those -- were sitting those people from local, top, let's say. And there

16 were on -- on my right some other people. I can't say anything about

17 them. Maybe altogether the local people were there, more than five and

18 less than 15. I -- I have no idea, because I was concentrated on -- on

19 the -- on the most important man.

20 Q. Can you remember if this man, which you describe as the most

21 important man at that meeting, was wearing civilian clothes on that

22 occasion?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Can you perhaps remember if he introduced himself at the meeting

25 as the boss of the civilian authorities or the military authorities in

Page 6756

1 that village?

2 A. I don't remember. Maybe something is written in -- in -- or my

3 remarks or in the report, but I don't remember. But he was speaking that

4 he was a leader of the unit which attacked the -- the city, or the

5 village.

6 Q. I will be asking you more about that, sir.

7 Did this person introduce himself to you in any way at all, such

8 as first and last name, perhaps?

9 A. I believe so.

10 Q. When you testified in the Dokmanovic case - for my learned

11 friend's benefit this is 1364, that's the page reference in the relevant

12 transcript - you stated that he was a military commander and that, in a

13 way, he introduced himself as the mayor of that particular village. Do

14 you remember that testimony, sir?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it also not true that at the time he said to you that he had

17 drafted a system of provisions for the village and control of the village

18 himself?

19 A. Yes, I remember that.

20 Q. Can you remember if, at the time when you spoke to him, he told

21 you that he had seized control of the village himself, aided by the local

22 population, or whether there were some other forces aiding him in this?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Can you remember if that leader, which seems to be how you have

25 described him, referred in any way to a presence of the JNA in the village

Page 6757

1 of Lovas?

2 A. I don't remember. If I can add, in the entrance to the village we

3 saw the tank, but it was the tank T-34, so I am not aware if it is JNA

4 tank or from some other unit.

5 Q. Thank you. Do you remember him perhaps telling you that he

6 himself was a resident of Lovas?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. When you were heard in the Dokmanovic case, this is 1365, you went

9 on record as saying, and I think the same thing is reflected in your

10 statement to the OTP investigators, that he told you that he had invested

11 a lot of money in effort to get enough equipment and weapons for that

12 group which eventually liberated that village. Do you remember that?

13 MR. MOORE: With the utmost respect to my learned friend, would it

14 not perhaps be better for the witness to have a short extract of what he

15 says in relation to this incident so that he is able to either clarify or

16 deny whether he said that or not? It's not a large extract; I've got it

17 here before me.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It might be helpful, Ms. Tapuskovic, if you have

19 one there. If not, it seems Mr. Moore --

20 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] I do agree, Your Honours. I do.

21 Q. This is page 5 of your statement. "[In English] I also remember

22 that he stated that the attack had been carried out by their own

23 detachment of Serbian volunteers, that they had no need, JNA support, and

24 that he had personally invested a huge amount of German marks for

25 supplying the detachment."

Page 6758

1 [Interpretation] Open brackets, "[In English] (Exact figure, but I

2 cannot recall it)."

3 [Interpretation] Mr. Kypr, do you now know what my reference is

4 to?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now that I have jogged your memory about what that person said to

7 you, this equipment that he had paid a lot of money for, can this

8 equipment be considered to have been weapons?

9 A. I don't remember, but it's possible.

10 Q. If I told you that this person's name is Ljuban Devetak, would

11 that mean anything to you right now?

12 A. No, I don't remember.

13 Q. I will repeat the person's name for the transcript. Ljuban

14 Devetak.

15 What if I told you that this person was not at the time residing

16 in Lovas, this person was residing in Osijek, which is a different town in

17 Croatia. I suppose you know where it is, don't you?

18 A. I cannot refer to that.

19 Q. Last Friday, while testifying in chief, you told us -- or, rather,

20 that the impression he made on you was of not being an entirely sane

21 person?

22 A. Yes. Not only on me, but Colonel Cunningham was very surprised.

23 Q. Sir, your report dated the 18th of October, why is there no

24 reference in it to anything like this?

25 A. I think that in our report you can see.

Page 6759

1 Q. To cut it short, Mr. Kypr, can we read in your statement that that

2 person told you that he had invested a certain amount of money to purchase

3 equipment?

4 A. We were sitting there for maybe one hour, and that was really a

5 long discussion. So it is up to our evaluation what is necessary to -- to

6 put into the -- the information to the report. The report was written by

7 Colonel Cunningham. And I don't think that all we were told is -- is

8 necessary to write down, because if -- if the person -- if Colonel

9 Cunningham and me, we had some problem with this person, so then even to

10 write everything is -- is wasting of time. And it's not usual you can see

11 other reports that they are even short, even if we were there for the

12 whole day.

13 Q. But you said they spent only an hour in that conversation. You

14 visited five villages on that day and you spent but an hour in the village

15 of Lovas?

16 A. [Previous translation continues] ... one hour, approximately one

17 hour, because I don't remember, and I don't think that there are some time

18 marking in our report or -- or in my remarks.

19 Q. Just to correct the transcript, page 13, line 10, the beginning of

20 the answer of the witness was that he cannot claim with any certainty that

21 the meeting lasted for one hour only.

22 But, regardless, when you testified in the Dokmanovic case as well

23 as here, on Friday you found it necessary to mention that the person

24 behaved rather strangely and that he invested a substantial amount of

25 money to purchase weapons.

Page 6760

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Can you remember whether the other people who attended

3 the meeting carried weapons?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that you were present at a

6 meeting during which an adventurer made use of the war and the entire

7 situation in which he used all of his money and imposed himself as the

8 village leader?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also stated that he handed over a list to you. It is a

11 handwritten list of names of those allegedly killed and there were 23

12 people, out of which 22 were Lovas residents; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, I remember that.

14 Q. Did either you or Mr. Cunningham in any way seek confirmation from

15 anyone else who attended the meeting as to whether, indeed, all the people

16 on the list were Lovas residents?

17 A. No, there was no situation to check it.

18 Q. On that occasion and at that meeting, or perhaps when you entered

19 or left Lovas, did you see any other units that you could describe as

20 paramilitary?

21 A. I have told you that in the entrance to the village there was a

22 tank, T-34, plus some people, but I remember mostly volunteers. Because

23 of their uniforms.

24 Q. I'll try to refresh your memory as to a part of your evidence in

25 the Dokmanovic case, and I can see that you have the transcript before

Page 6761

1 you. That's page 1366. Line 2 of that page, I will read it out to

2 you. "[In English] These were the forces of the first attack. But this

3 is a matter of what we were told, in fact, because in view of the rules

4 under which we operated we were never in the areas where the paramilitary

5 operations were proceeding."

6 [Interpretation] Do you remember that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I presume you can confirm to us that the visit that lasted

9 approximately an hour was your only visit to Lovas?

10 A. Yes, as concerns me or -- or Cunningham, probably.

11 Q. Do you know whether any other team reached the village of Lovas in

12 the meantime?

13 A. I am not sure, but I believe that there was one team of ECMM after

14 the Ilok surrender. But I have no evidence, or I have no knowledge about

15 it.

16 Q. That's precisely what I wanted to ask you. You said that you were

17 told at the time that the village of Lovas had about 1800 inhabitants, out

18 of which 36 [as interpreted] were Serbs?

19 A. [Previous translation continues] ... in my testimony or in -- in

20 this report, then -- yes, it is in report. Okay.

21 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, a clarification for

22 the transcript. Page 15, line 12, it reads "36 Serbs," and it should

23 be 136.

24 Q. Either you or any other member of the team, did you know that out

25 of the 1800 inhabitants of Lovas village around 180 men of the village

Page 6762

1 were deployed or rather organised in six platoons to defend the village of

2 Lovas?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What would you say if I told you that the way the village defence

5 was organised, as well as a plan of -- of getting supplies for the village

6 was drafted back in April 1991?

7 A. I cannot refer to that, because I have no knowledge about this

8 situation, and ...

9 Q. You probably didn't even know that one of those who were defending

10 Lovas was Marin Vidic, a.k.a. Bili, and you had heard of him whilst you

11 were out in the field?

12 A. No, I didn't know that. We were not informed about that.

13 Q. Your role was to monitor the situation, and as monitors were you

14 also tasked with gathering data?

15 A. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, if it is possible.

16 Q. Does that mean that you were unable to do so because your visits

17 were short? I don't know in which report exactly it is mentioned that

18 there was a shortage of personnel and teams, but thanks to that, you were

19 unable to collect precise information about the situation in the villages

20 and localities you visited?

21 A. We went there to observe the situation, which is there in the very

22 moment. We are there to investigate the situation on the spot. To

23 details means a lot of capacities, and it goes even sometimes, I believe,

24 even beyond our mandate in details. Because we are not -- we were not

25 allowed to -- to get information which could be seemed like that we are

Page 6763

1 doing some intelligence or something like that. We have to be a trustful

2 body, so -- so we try to be as impartial and possible visibly, and if we

3 are doing this in detail, it belongs more to humanitarian organisations or

4 to organisations of law enforcement, let's say.

5 Q. All right. Now, to go back to a document, that is this document,

6 Lovas 1, tab 13, page 2. The final three digits of the English ERN

7 are 395. If you have a look at tab 16, that is Ilok 12, page 2 of 2, the

8 final figures, 380. But if you compare the pages, you can see that it's

9 actually the one and the same page.

10 A. Yes. It was told by the Prosecutor yesterday.

11 Q. Yes. My learned friend, Mr. Moore, established that these were

12 indeed the same pages, or rather that one and the same page was attached

13 to two documents.

14 Mr. Kypr, can you tell us whether the other document, the second

15 document, Ilok 12, in tab 16, was this the way it was forwarded from the

16 regional centre in Belgrade to Zagreb, comprising these two pages?

17 A. No. I believe that it's my mistake during -- when I was making

18 copies from those files, so it's -- it's my mistake, I believe.

19 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this concludes my

20 cross-examination.

21 Q. I thank you, Mr. Kypr.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Tapuskovic.

23 Mr. Lukic.

24 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.

25 [Interpretation] This team's problem is that we always come last,

Page 6764

1 and we are always the ones who are forced to keep the track of time the

2 most.

3 JUDGE PARKER: And you do it so well, Mr. Lukic.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I agree with you on that, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examination by Mr. Lukic:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kypr. My name is Mr. Lukic. I

7 am an attorney appearing on behalf of Mr. Sljivancanin, and I will be

8 butting questions to you next. I would yet again kindly ask you to wait a

9 few seconds after I have finished my question or watch the transcript,

10 otherwise everyone participating in the proceedings will have a problem

11 with the transcript in particular.

12 I will begin with a question resulting from one of your answers

13 yesterday when Mr. Vasic was putting questions to you and it is regarding

14 my client. In your testimony before this Tribunal, you testified that you

15 saw my client on two occasions: On the 18th, and you have his first and

16 last name in your notes; and on the 20th when you recognised him at the

17 bridge during his conversation with Mr. Bosinger, and I presume later on

18 at the hospital, but we will discuss that later as well. In any case, you

19 saw Sljivancanin on the 18th and the 20th. And I believe it is not in

20 dispute, and I believe Mr. Moore will be glad to hear that

21 Mr. Sljivancanin noted his name in your notes himself; therefore, your

22 meeting at Negoslavci is not in dispute.

23 But I'm interested in the following: You told my learned friend,

24 Mr. Vasic, that during your missions you met a lot of people, and you

25 mentioned that there over 100 officers and that is the reason why you

Page 6765

1 can -- you cannot remember everyone, but you can clearly remember what my

2 client looked like, and you remember his name, and as you said that in the

3 Dokmanovic case, am I wrong if I infer that the fact that you remembered

4 his name and face, because he appeared a lot in the media; in particular,

5 his conversation at the bridge with Mr. Bosinger because it was broadcast

6 so often at the time and subsequently? Is that the reason why you

7 remembered him so clearly, or is there something else because of which you

8 remembered him in particular?

9 A. I have a strange analytic memory, and I don't remember so much

10 faces, but I do remember my feelings from -- from this meeting, and what I

11 was surprised of, and probably it's the reason why I do remember that, why

12 I remember Major Sljivancanin, is not only that I saw him on -- on TV, but

13 from this meeting I remember his behaviour, his style of speaking. And I

14 was surprised, because there were even some colonels sometimes, and

15 comparing if there are in a normal army, if there is somebody with a rank

16 two -- of two ranks higher, then those -- this chain of command or

17 superiority is -- is -- is usual by ranks. It's army. And what I

18 remember is that he behaves, he behaved himself like body with -- with

19 certain very high capacity. It could be because he is trained for -- for

20 some PR or -- I can't say, but it is visible that he sometimes

21 overshadowed even higher rank officers. So maybe it is the reason why I

22 am remembering him.

23 Q. I presume that you remember that there were always journalists

24 around him at the time?

25 A. Yes, I remember him in front of houses speaking to TV cameras and

Page 6766

1 so on.

2 Q. Can you remember whether any senior officer stood up or confronted

3 him as regards his statements?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Were you under an impression that he was to be the person to

6 contact journalists on behalf of the JNA during the period when you were

7 there?

8 A. I don't think that it was only because of journalists. He was

9 very visible, and I was thinking what is behind the scene, because

10 sometimes it happens in those type of armies that if there are some

11 special context or some special tasks, so then even lower rank officers

12 are in reality working as a higher officer. So as I -- as I do remember

13 the situation there, I can't say.

14 Q. All right. We will go back to the events at which he was present

15 later on.

16 But could we please put Exhibit 303 before the witness? For you

17 that is tab 3 in the folder. It's a sketch showing the structure of your

18 mission. You discussed this with the Prosecutor already, the Prosecutor

19 of -- of the Belgrade HQ of your mission?

20 A. [Previous translation continues] ... yes, it is.

21 Q. You testified, as far as I understood, that as of September 1991

22 you were appointed as deputy head of the mission, Ambassador Perrin?

23 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Yes, it is true.

24 Q. The answer was: "Yes, it is correct"?

25 Can you tell me when was this drawn up? In the explanations, I

Page 6767

1 see that November is mentioned and that certain people were on vacation.

2 Can you remember to what period this refers to?

3 A. Really, I don't remember.

4 Q. But I don't see Mr. Schou anywhere. Can you remember when he

5 joined your mission in relation to the Vukovar events?

6 A. Because of changing and -- of those monitors, and I was many times

7 on the spot, so I don't -- I really had no complete evidence about each

8 and every monitor all the time. I do remember Dr. Schou being on those

9 meetings in Negoslavci before 18th and 19th. Or not -- not before

10 the 18th and 19th, but -- but on those meetings, at least at one of them.

11 Q. Where would his position be within this diagram? So if we take a

12 look at the abbreviations, where would he be placed on the 18th and

13 onwards in relation to Vukovar?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ... he was in one of ordinary

15 monitors, but sometimes we made, if it is necessary, so we made a special

16 team consists of -- of few persons which have a special capacity. So it

17 is not -- the teams are stable, but not all the time.

18 Q. In any case, you, as deputy head of the mission, were his superior

19 in terms of hierarchy?

20 A. Concerning the hierarchy, yes. If you ask me on the -- what was

21 on the spot, then it's another question.

22 Q. In your testimony, and in your answers to Ms. Tapuskovic's

23 questions and on several other occasions, you testified as to your duties

24 at the time within the mission, and you told us that your reports were

25 forwarded to the headquarters of the mission in Zagreb. Where did those

Page 6768

1 reports go further? To any central focal point, or whether they were

2 being distributed to those who needed to see them?

3 A. It was an EC, European Community Monitoring Mission. In the time

4 republic was not a member of European community, so I cannot say about the

5 system officially from -- from the sight of Czech Republic, and I don't

6 know, and I didn't know in that time what is the procedure of -- of

7 analysing of those reports, comparing, asking for some other actions and

8 so on. So I cannot -- I cannot say anything about procedures in Zagreb,

9 because in Zagreb I was a very ordinary monitor.

10 Q. I heard yesterday what you said about Czechoslovakia's status

11 within the mission. But I want to ask you this: I assume that as a

12 member of the mission and as a diplomat you closely followed public

13 declarations made by the Council of Europe and other European institutions

14 at the time, those statements that were made public in the media. As a

15 citizen, once you learn about a declaration like that by, for example, the

16 Council of Europe, did you at the time see that there was anything in

17 reference to your mission, that the reports of your mission were used when

18 making public political declarations?

19 A. Sir, as I told you, in the mission in Belgrade I was really

20 exhausted because of my many functions. So even when I was following

21 press, radio and so on, I was trying to pick up a very concrete situation

22 from the spot or from the society. The level of conferences, Council of

23 Europe and so on, it belongs to the top of the mission in Zagreb, and it

24 was not -- I had no, really, capacity to cover everything, so ...

25 Q. Just let me say something about my question. Page 22, line 10, I

Page 6769

1 referred to the Council of Europe and the OSCE, and this was not recorded

2 in the transcript.

3 What about your reports, I mean you from Belgrade? Were these

4 available to the public? For example --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of

6 counsel's question.

7 A. No. Those reports are only for the tasking cell Zagreb, and it's

8 up to them what they will publish.

9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. You must -- I have to be able to finish my answer [sic] because my

11 answers are not recorded in their entirety.

12 I said in my answer [sic] on page 22, line 21, I said: For

13 example, the media in Serbia. And your answer was recorded.

14 A. Yes. My answer was that our reports were for mission sense to

15 tasking cell to Zagreb, and it was on Zagreb's headquarters what they will

16 publish.

17 Q. On the first day of your testimony you described the mission's

18 remit, and you said that the name itself implied what the mission's remit

19 was. It was mainly about monitoring; it wasn't about being involved in

20 negotiations. You even went on to describe how in Ilok you were in other

21 rooms too. Despite which, on the first day of your testimony on page 81,

22 officially the page number is 6562, when you were asked by the Prosecutor

23 about your notes and how you compiled them, you said: "[Previous

24 translation continues] [In English] ... negotiating or referring to this

25 at this point afterwards."

Page 6770

1 [Interpretation] You described the reports, you described Colonel

2 Cunningham, and in the same sentence you say that you two were involved in

3 negotiations. "[In English] -- referring to this and at that point

4 afterwards."

5 [Interpretation] I am just extracting that phrase. But what I

6 want to know is whether you were actively involved in any negotiations.

7 When I say "negotiations," I mean purely the grammatical sense of the

8 word.

9 A. Yes, speaking about negotiations means that, for instance, the

10 evacuation of the hospital. So there are few parties, International

11 Red Cross, we, JNA, and we were negotiating concrete step. Otherwise we

12 were sometimes as witnesses or as a part which -- which facilitating the

13 possibility of contacts of those two sides and we were sitting there as

14 well. Maybe there could be some other mandate, but I don't remember. It

15 depends on situation, because if both sides are agreed, then we can do

16 even more, probably, but I don't remember.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing, on page 24, line 1,

18 you said, and this wasn't recorded, you said -- you said: "[In

19 English] -- people, evacuation of the hospital."

20 [Interpretation] You said evacuation of the hospital. Didn't you

21 say that a while ago?

22 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 Q. We have the audio recording, so ...

24 Okay. Let's move on to Exhibit 312; this is at tab 17. You've

25 testified about this already, especially what you explained to Mr. Vasic

Page 6771

1 yesterday. Based on that, my understanding was that this is a report --

2 or should I call it a document, although it does say report 138 of the

3 monitoring mission. So that this was a report made by a special group in

4 order to look into some complaints made by certain authorities regarding

5 breaches of protocol. So it was a special group that drafted this report;

6 isn't that right?

7 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

8 Q. Can you please repeat the answer?

9 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

10 Q. The witness said, "I believe so."

11 A. Because I -- I don't remember consistency of the team.

12 Q. Based on this document, sir, can you say anything about the

13 procedure itself. If this was sent from Zagreb, who would have produced a

14 document like this, if you can give me the person's name or the person's

15 position within the mission?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. If I look at the document, I see that this is dated the 8th of

18 November. And there is a report on breaches of protocol. For example,

19 there is one dated the 7th of November, 1991. What follows, the text that

20 follows, is that, according to you, the report made by the head of

21 mission?

22 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

23 Q. If you can look at the top of the page, it says: "Reference" and

24 then it says: "Next report."

25 A. Yes, it is there.

Page 6772

1 Q. The reference "HOM" on the 7th of November. HOM is, I suppose,

2 head of mission, right?

3 A. Yes, it was used like head of mission.

4 Q. Do you know the name of the person who was head of mission in

5 Zagreb at the time?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. You don't know what the composition was of those teams, the teams

8 working on the ground gathering information. You said they had lawyers,

9 you said they had other experts on their teams and so on and so forth.

10 You don't know who was doing the cross-checking, right?

11 A. I don't know the constituents of the team. And who was doing

12 what.

13 Q. My understanding was you made a photocopy of this document and

14 gave it to the OTP. I suppose you found it in the archive of the mission,

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you made a copy of this document and when you gave it to the

18 OTP, do you remember if there were any attachments to it?

19 A. I don't remember, and in the text there is "End of text," and

20 no -- I can't say any referring to annexes.

21 Q. Based on your experience, sir, when the Zagreb mission sends a

22 report in relation to certain facts, especially when invoking certain

23 witness interviews, would it be normal to attach to any such reports other

24 materials such as photographs or statements, other reports? Do you have

25 any experience yourself to indicate that?

Page 6773

1 A. Sir, I told you that I have no information about procedures of the

2 headquarters in ECMM Zagreb.

3 Q. At any rate, you only found this document in the mission that you

4 forwarded to the OTP in relation to this piece of paper, right?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... this copy was in Belgrade

6 centre.

7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be good to have a

8 break now.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

10 We'll have the first break now and resume at 10 to.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Sir, let me dwell on this document for a while. The report says

16 that an interview was conducted under A with ECMM members of RCC Belgrade.

17 A. Sir, there is no "with each member." There is -- there are

18 interviews with ECMM members of RCC Belgrade, not with each member.

19 Q. You are entirely right. That is what the original says. My

20 official translation says "with each member." That's the copy that I was

21 using.

22 Do you remember conducting any interviews with any members of the

23 special team?

24 A. I already said that I don't remember, and I am not quite sure if,

25 because of the lack of time I was not in a -- in a contact with them, or

Page 6774

1 the -- the discussion was short. I don't know.

2 Q. That's in the report. Everything about their difficulties while

3 compiling this report. Do you know that anyone from your Belgrade

4 regional centre took part in the drafting of this document? Did anyone

5 tell you about that?

6 A. No, I don't know.

7 Q. This is on page 1, heading with the numbers, the last sentence of

8 the paragraph is: "[In English] This view was also supported by a written

9 report from the other area."

10 [Interpretation] Do you have any knowledge to indicate that there

11 was a report from another area? If so, do you know from which area?

12 A. As I have said before, I had no any information about the work of

13 the team and about resources, witnesses they have met and so on. I don't

14 know. I don't remember.

15 Q. We'll move on to something completely different now. We're done

16 with this document. Let us now move on to what happened on the 18th, 19th

17 and 20th in Vukovar. I will mostly be referring to documents that have

18 already been admitted. I will not be tendering any new documents, but we

19 will look at certain recordings. Please keep your notebook handy, sir. I

20 will now refer to things in your notebook that you also testified in chief

21 about. I will request some clarifications.

22 Based on your testimony and on your notebook, on the 18th of

23 November first you had that meeting in Belgrade, and then you spent over

24 an hour waiting at a check-point I will say in Adasevci [phoen] before you

25 were allowed to enter the Vukovar area. Do you remember, upon leaving

Page 6775

1 Belgrade, that you were being accompanied by a JNA liaison officers? I'm

2 talking about the 18th of November only.

3 A. I don't remember. Sometimes we have met them on the road, there

4 was some point of contact, sometimes they went with us from the hotel. I

5 really don't know.

6 Q. You read out a portion of your own note where you recorded your

7 meeting with Vesna Bosanac at 12.15. The page in your notebook, the last

8 three digits, 761. I would like to remind you that on that day, after

9 Negoslavci, you drove off to Vukovar and later went to Velepromet. My

10 client took you to an elevation called Milovo hill, from which you could

11 see the town. And you could hear that there was still some fighting going

12 on on the 18th of November. Do you remember that?

13 A. No, I don't remember. I know that we were there in the

14 neighbourhood, I cannot say when and where.

15 Q. Can you please look at the following document now. You were shown

16 this by my learned friend, Mr. Moore. This is at tab 23. The report on

17 the visit of the 18th. Page 2, it reads, third passage in English: "[In

18 English] We visited the town under JNA protection. There was no

19 cease-fire."

20 [Interpretation] The word "no" is underlined.

21 "[In English] Shelling and firing was going on."

22 [Interpretation] Does this perhaps jog your memory about hearing

23 any shelling and firing on that day?

24 A. Sir, really, I can't remember, because shooting was there all the

25 time, and it's -- it's really difficult to remember when.

Page 6776

1 Q. Fine. I will now remind you of your statement to the OTP, the one

2 you gave back in 1996 when your memory must have been a lot fresher. It's

3 page 7 of the statement. Do you have that in front of you, sir? Page 7,

4 paragraph 1, I'm reading the last portion in the brackets. After the fact

5 that you described the fact that you spoke to Vesna Bosanac on the phone,

6 you appear to be saying to the OTP: "[In English] We were instructed by

7 the JNA liaison officer that ECM Mission would not be permitted further

8 telephone contact with the hospital in Vukovar."

9 [Interpretation] You stated that in 1996 to the OTP. Do you

10 remember whether the --

11 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I cannot precisely say what

12 means after, if it was immediately after the -- the phone call or few

13 hours later. I cannot say. But I -- I know that there was some ban on.

14 Q. Fine. At the beginning of your answer, which wasn't recorded, you

15 said, "Yes," page 29.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Kypr, my theory is, and I believe there are documents to show

18 this, that the Zagreb agreement, or Raseta's agreement, if you like, was

19 concluded on the 18th of November in the late evening hours in Zagreb.

20 You said that first you received an oral report about this, about the

21 agreement, and it wasn't until later that a copy of it was faxed to you.

22 Can you tell me exactly when you were told about this or familiarised with

23 the details of the agreement and when you received it in writing that may

24 be recorded on the face of the document itself, and it may have been

25 earlier on. Do you remember that?

Page 6777

1 A. I don't remember that, and I am sure that it was Colonel

2 Cunningham who first mentioned this -- this agreement because I was not

3 aware about this situation. Maybe even -- even the information came from

4 negotiations, because ECMM was a part of those negotiations, as I am aware

5 of. I don't know in what capacity.

6 Q. But you received this report orally from your office in Zagreb, or

7 from Belgrade?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 Q. The witness said, "I believe so." Again, it wasn't recorded. And

10 what I meant was you, as a team, not you personally, sir.

11 At any rate, as for your discussion with Mrs. Bosanac at 1215

12 hours on the 18th, you did not know about the agreement at that point in

13 time because it had not yet been signed, right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. This indicates that Vesna Bosanac told you on that occasion that

16 the Red Cross weren't able to make it because there was firing from the

17 right-hand river-bank of the Danube. This is something you wrote down.

18 On that day, or the next day, or the next days, did you receive any

19 information, and I mean above all the ICRC, to indicate that on the 18th,

20 on the morning of the 18th or the afternoon of the 18th, Mr. Borsinger, on

21 behalf of the International Committee of the Red Cross, attended a

22 surrender of a large number of Croatian troops at Mitnica, over 180

23 Croatian troops, on the 18th, and we've heard a lot of evidence to that

24 effect, surrendered. And the surrender lasted for nearly the whole day.

25 A. No, I don't remember any information about it.

Page 6778

1 Q. That's fine. Well, there's something I need to clarify about the

2 transcript. The first day during your testimony in chief on page 6566,

3 you testified as follows, and if you could look at your diary, your notes,

4 1225 hours, you stated: "We have requested approval from Zagreb." That's

5 what your note appears to be indicating. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. I'm reading the transcript from two days ago, the 24th. Question

8 by the OTP: "[In English] And what is the next entry, please, is there a

9 timing at 1225?"

10 "Yes. We ask for permission in Zagreb to go there to Vukovar

11 because -- to Vukovar Hospital."

12 [Interpretation] That was your answer. Let me ask you: Do you

13 now remember requesting approval from Zagreb to go to the hospital, or did

14 you request approval from Zagreb for something else? Because there no

15 reference to the hospital in your diary, in your notes?

16 A. There was no other reason to -- to -- to go -- or to ask for

17 permission in Zagreb. It was -- it's immediately connected, so I -- I

18 believe that my memory is -- is right, that it is connected to -- with the

19 visit in hospital.

20 Q. That's fine. That morning you met General Maksimovic in Belgrade;

21 that much is clear. At that time, or later on while you were travelling,

22 and when you were in touch with the liaison officer, so before Vesna

23 Bosanac told you this, did you ever mention that you wanted to go to the

24 hospital to anyone? Did you express this wish to anyone? Did you write

25 down anything about the fact that you didn't go to the hospital in any of

Page 6779

1 your reports?

2 A. I don't remember. Sorry.

3 Q. Do you now remember that the liaison officer, or my client, Major

4 Sljivancanin, whom you met that day, told you about the fact that on

5 the 18th there was still fighting in the area surrounding the hospital?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. I will try to jog your memory, and later on we will see the

8 interview at Pavkovic's on the 19th and you being informed that the

9 hospital was under JNA control on the 19th, but if you don't remember,

10 that's all right. Let's move on. Not even the indictment indicates that

11 the JNA was there on the 18th, but I thought maybe you might remember some

12 details.

13 In relation to Exhibit 314, and the fact that my client's first

14 and last names were recorded in your notebook, it seems beyond dispute

15 that he himself put his signature there. Did it ever happen that you

16 handed your notebook to someone so they could sign the notebook?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about the position of the ECMM when talking to any of those

19 involved? I mean involved in the clashes, involved in negotiations. Was

20 it the position that there should be no journalists attending these

21 meetings? Do you remember that?

22 A. Yes, we preferred to -- to do that. But it's up to the -- let's

23 say, the -- those parts we are speaking with, if they insist of it, we

24 cannot -- we cannot send anybody out, because it's the responsibility of

25 receiving part.

Page 6780

1 Q. What about the 18th when you spoke to the JNA? You proposed that

2 journalists be told to leave the room, didn't you?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I don't remember.

4 Q. What about the night between the 18th and the 19th, your first

5 visit? I have already heard some answers but I wish to have this

6 clarified. The -- what about the night between the 19th and the 20th, did

7 you spend any of those two nights at Negoslavci?

8 A. I don't remember. I believe that I slept in Belgrade, but

9 really ...

10 Q. That's what you said. I can see that you came at 6.45 on

11 the 20th, pretty early. Does this refresh your memory that you may have

12 left Belgrade very early that morning, because one usually remembers such

13 small towns and where you spent the night, I presume?

14 A. I remember that we, many times, went from the hotel almost in the

15 night, in the early morning, so I -- I cannot say. I'm sorry.

16 Q. As regards that conversation and you meeting my client on

17 the 18th, I believe Colonel Memisevic was there as well, who often wore an

18 olive-drab uniform. Would you say that the JNA liaison officer was

19 present when you met Sljivancanin on the 18th as well?

20 A. It was -- sorry. It was usual that those liaison officers were

21 there. I cannot confirm that exactly in that time it -- it has been

22 Colonel Memisevic. And I do remember that sometimes he wore civil

23 clothes.

24 Q. On the 18th of November, do you remember whether your team at any

25 time contacted representatives of the ICRC at Vukovar? Do you remember

Page 6781

1 having seen them that day, and in Negoslavci as well?

2 A. I don't remember.

3 Q. Could you please take a look at your notes as regards your visit

4 to Velepromet? That's page 6765. Velepromet. The ERN number I mentioned

5 refers to the notes, and that's not exactly the page number. That's not

6 what I had in mind.

7 Your visit was at 2.45 p.m., you entered Velepromet refugee

8 centre, capacity approximately 300 at the most. After that you wrote a

9 sentence in English. Would you be so kind as to read it, please?

10 A. You mean -- there is a line, so you mean the sentence up or down

11 from Velepromet?

12 Q. [In English] Up.

13 A. Okay. "We stopped all actions now," do you mean?

14 Q. [Interpretation] "2.45 p.m., Velepromet." What follows next?

15 A. "Centrum for refugees, capacity approximately not more than 300,

16 by their own wishes. Adopted a girl."

17 That's one of remarks. And then there is: "Stojanovic Ljubinko,

18 chief of centrum."

19 Q. [In English] Thank you.

20 A. And it is written, Stojanovic Ljubinko is written by not my hand.

21 Q. You had explained that on the first day.

22 Your entries, they obviously meant something to you at the time.

23 What does it mean what he you said according to their wish? "[In English]

24 By their own wishes."

25 A. Yes, it is written there.

Page 6782

1 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember what was that in relation to?

2 A. We were told that -- that the capacity is such and such, and that

3 people are there by their own wishes.

4 Q. In the report we can see that you spent a quarter of an hour with

5 the prison warden, Stojanovic Ljubinko, that is in tab 23. We have the

6 schedule of the visit there, and -- and you spent some 45 minutes talking

7 to the refugees. Do you remember whether you asked Ljubinko Stojanovic to

8 have the lists prepared for your next visit, the lists of refugees who

9 were there?

10 A. I don't remember that from the spot, but what I remember is that

11 it is written in some of those reports I saw.

12 Q. Let us now move on to the 19th. That's tab 21, and we've shown

13 quite some interest in the document before. Could we please have the

14 B/C/S version? [In English] Exhibit 316.

15 [Interpretation] I will not try to repeat the questions posed by

16 the Prosecutor or my learned friends. But as you said, this report was

17 compiled by Mr. Cunningham?

18 A. [Previous translation continues] ... written by Cunningham's hand,

19 but -- but the -- the first part, or not the first part, but there is a

20 part on the first page which is written by somebody else.

21 Q. In English?

22 A. Yes, it is in English.

23 Q. The title reads: "Subject: Negotiations on the evacuation of the

24 wounded." When Mr. Moore was putting questions to you, he used the

25 word "briefing" in relation to this meeting. I term this negotiations.

Page 6783

1 Would you agree with me that you and Colonel Cunningham in your

2 conversation with Pavkovic and others, you stated your position as regards

3 the evacuation from the hospital. It wasn't a pure exchange of

4 information between you and the JNA, but rather expressing your position

5 to let it known to the JNA. That's how I understood your answer.

6 A. Yes. Colonel Cunningham made a reaction, what he heard -- has

7 heard.

8 Q. You read out yesterday who participated in the conversation, and

9 you've corrected what needed to be corrected. Paragraph 5 of the fax

10 message that we mentioned rather often. I will not read out the whole

11 thing, but under D, I wanted to focus on one thing only.

12 A. [Previous translation continues] ... the paper you are speaking

13 about.

14 Q. I'm still with the document you have before you. We will not talk

15 about the fax message, but about the document itself. At d?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. I can read it out in English. "[In English] Signed by Croat and

18 JNA."

19 [Interpretation] Could you please read that out?

20 A. Authorities evoked much discussion -- sorry, probably I have to --

21 so I will read it once more. "Paragraph 5 of fax signed by Croats and JNA

22 authorities evoked much discussion. Colonel Pavkovic stated that

23 prisoners of war would not be allowed to depart, as first the prisoners of

24 war are under JNA control. Second, if he did, Serb irregulars/local

25 citizens would attack the convoy. Third, the pris -- those prisoners of

Page 6784

1 war would be exchanged for JNA prisoners of war at some future time."

2 Q. Since the Chamber has the document as well, could you please read

3 out item g?

4 A. "g: The doctors and nurses of old management would be allowed to

5 move where they wishes."

6 Q. Please stay with the document, and take your notes referring to

7 the 19th. Page, three last digits, 769. Could you please read out the

8 entry at 4.15 p.m.?

9 A. There is missing the rest of the question.

10 Q. Could you please read out from your notes concerning the same

11 meeting the entry you made at 4.15, what is it that you stated?

12 A. So it is not what I recognised. It is what I wrote down. Not --

13 it's not my consultation, it's what I wrote down.

14 So: "Serbs, Territorial Defence/volunteers will not allow convoy

15 pass through if there is a single Croatian soldier in it. If the people

16 knew that Ustashas were in" -- original there is "are," but it is a

17 question of grammar -- "they would liquidate you, you and us in the

18 convoy."

19 Q. Thank you. You don't need to read any further. You've read that

20 out already before. But I'm interested in the following: What you stated

21 in your notes as regards 4.35 p.m., it completely tallies with the

22 information provided by Cunningham in the document, in the report that is

23 that you have read out a minute ago. That Pavkovic stated that he

24 wouldn't allow POWs to leave because, the second reason, should he do

25 that, the convoy would be attacked by the Serb irregulars and locals. The

Page 6785

1 conclusion made by Cunningham is basically the same to what you have read

2 out from your notes?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ... point.

4 Q. Would you please repeat your answer?

5 A. [Previous translation continues] ... to the same point.

6 Q. When you discussed your notes with your -- with Mr. Moore you said

7 that you don't know who stated that, but I wanted to show you what

8 Cunningham said concerning that. And I believe, and you will probably

9 agree with me, that this is in relation to what Mr. Pavkovic had said.

10 A. According the report, yes. I don't remember real situation.

11 Q. I don't want you to speculate, but rather I wanted you to compare

12 the documents.

13 To return to your testimony yesterday, actually I'm not certain

14 whether that was yesterday, but when you discussed how team reports were

15 drafted, you said that all of your colleagues kept their own notes and

16 that you compare them and drafted the report. Was that the method used in

17 compiling a report, indeed?

18 A. Yes, but not all -- each time. Sometimes it -- it was done from

19 memory, sometimes -- it depends on -- on the situation on the -- on the

20 spot and what we saw and sometimes it -- reports were very short because

21 there was nothing to report, so ...

22 Q. To stay with the meeting on the 19th at Mr. Pavkovic's office in

23 Negoslavci, do you remember, first of all, that at some point you were

24 joined by Nicholas Borsinger, the ICRC representative at the meeting, and

25 he left quite shortly afterwards, and Cunningham told him a few things,

Page 6786

1 and then he left? Do you remember that?

2 A. I do remember that the representative of ICRC was there in

3 the 18th or in the 19th. I don't remember any arguments or -- or any

4 conflict between Cunningham and Borsinger.

5 Q. You said that you remember what my client looked like quite well.

6 According to the notes about this meeting, my client wasn't present there;

7 is that correct?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 Q. Could you please repeat your answer?

10 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I can't say it.

11 Q. I presume that had he been present at the meeting you would have

12 entered that in your notes, would you not?

13 A. It is not necessary. Those remarks are not a full record of -- of

14 situation. Sometimes we rely on memory, sometimes I rely that somebody

15 else is writing it down, sometimes you don't know who is even coming to

16 the room, because you are in -- in the situation, you are speaking, or you

17 are listening. So I -- it's -- it's difficult, and I -- I have said in

18 the very beginning using my remarks, that it is not a full record of

19 situation.

20 Q. But I presume that would you agree with me that in your notes

21 pertaining to the 19th, you didn't state having seen my client; and in

22 Cunningham's reports for the 19th there is no mention of my client either.

23 Wouldn't you agree?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. I wanted to read out to you a portion of the

Page 6787

1 transcript for the 27th of March. Your testimony on the 27th of March,

2 Transcript page 6620, I don't believe you have that with you. This was

3 your testimony two days ago. That was during examination-in-chief by

4 Mr. Moore. Regarding ICRC presence, you replied the following: "[In

5 English] I remember that he was objecting that, that he was not allowed to

6 go to the hospital in the evening."

7 [Interpretation] It hasn't been entered into the transcript

8 correctly.

9 "[In English] I remember he was objecting that, that he was not

10 allowed to go to the hospital in the evening."

11 Then Mr. Moore asked you: "[In English] Do you remember if there

12 was any explanation by the JNA why he was not allowed to go in the

13 evening?"

14 [Interpretation] Your reply was -- you said that a couple of days

15 ago. I wanted to ask you the following --

16 MR. MOORE: I'm sorry, it seems to be a recurring problem with

17 regard to the transcript. I am not getting answers, or I don't know

18 exactly what the -- what is being said. For example, the answer

19 was: "No, sorry," but that doesn't show on the transcript. And I also

20 know that a lot of the replies are not being recorded. I hope that

21 nothing will ever turn on it, but there must be some problem, I would have

22 thought with regard to the microphone, or the microphone system with the

23 new -- with the new technology.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I think the problem is much more simple, that the

25 next speaker speaks before the previous answers are recorded, or the

Page 6788

1 previous statement is recorded. So we get only one and not both speakers.

2 I have attempted many times to have that corrected. When I think an

3 answer is particularly important, I intervene to ensure that it is. But I

4 must leave it with counsel. If they want the question and the answer, you

5 just have to ensure that you slow down enough for that to happen.

6 MR. MOORE: Well, could the witness just be reminded what his

7 reply was, please? Thank you very much.

8 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] The witness said, "No, sorry," as I've

9 read out.

10 And I want to share something with you that we were told by

11 the interpreters. There is an additional problem when we speak in B/C/S

12 and then we immediately switch to an English text, that is a problem in

13 its own, and we should make a short break there as well for the sake of

14 the transcript.

15 Q. Mr. Kypr, regarding your reply to Mr. Moore, do you remember that

16 Mr. Borsinger when he saw you as a team on the 20th, did he tell you that

17 he was at the hospital on the 19th and that he left the hospital by

18 himself, although Dr. Bosanac insisted that he stay overnight? This thing

19 that I stated, does it sound familiar to you in any way?

20 A. I don't remember that.

21 Q. Do you remember whether on that day you were told by Mr. Borsinger

22 that he received all the lists of those wounded and sick from Dr. Bosanac

23 and that he had those lists with him on the 20th of November?

24 A. I don't remember that. What I do believe is that I -- I don't

25 remember even any contact of my person and Mr. Borsinger.

Page 6789

1 Q. What about Mr. Cunningham, did he have any contact on the 20th

2 with Mr. Borsinger or Mr. Schou, for that matter?

3 A. [Previous translation continues] ... I can't say it.

4 Q. Just for the Chamber, I have been meaning to show the witness, and

5 Mr. Moore too, Mrs. Bosanac's testimony on 686 and 687. We heard that

6 before, so I just wanted to ask if Mr. Borsinger maybe shared this with

7 you, but that's all right, I suppose, we can move on now.

8 Were you a member of the team that visited Vesna Bosanac at the

9 Sremska Mitrovica prison? A report or a document was drafted on that

10 occasion that has been admitted here.

11 A. No, I was not there.

12 Q. It was established during the interview with Mrs. Bosanac that she

13 stated to you and your representatives that on the 19th the JNA arrived at

14 the hospital with two people from the ICRC. That's what the document

15 says. Do you remember any of your colleagues mentioning this insofar as

16 you talked about this at all?

17 A. [Previous translation continues] ... what I know, I know only from

18 this report.

19 Q. Very well. Did any of your colleagues tell you, or did you

20 yourself hear from Borsinger that he told you you said you were not in

21 touch with him. Did any of your colleagues tell you that Borsinger told

22 them that he was not able to enter the hospital on the 19th?

23 A. I don't remember. Maybe it is in some report -- of reports, but I

24 don't remember.

25 Q. I'm asking you all these things because of what you told

Page 6790

1 Mr. Moore. So you cannot claim that you heard from anybody that

2 Mr. Borsinger had said that he had lodged a complaint because he wasn't

3 allowed to enter the hospital on the 19th, and because of this you don't

4 know what, if any, JNA reaction that was or any complaints that he made.

5 You told that to Mr. Moore, and now you're telling me that you personally

6 don't remember. I'm asking you about your personal testimony. Perhaps

7 the question was a little complicated.

8 A. Yes --

9 Q. It's very simple, really. You said to Mr. Moore what I have just

10 read out. Now I'm asking you: Did you personally hear from Borsinger or

11 from anybody else personally that Borsinger at that point in time said

12 that he had been ejected, or, rather, that he was not allowed to enter the

13 hospital on the 19th, as you said, and that he told the JNA about this in

14 order to complain about it?

15 A. I do have it in my memory somewhere, but I cannot say what is the

16 source of this information now.

17 Q. Fine. Let's move on.

18 Let's go now to the 20th of November. We need Exhibit 320; tab 32

19 [as interpreted] for you, sir. It's a report that you drafted. You have

20 testified a great deal about this report, about the time-line, about the

21 facts, about the persons that you mentioned between 1 and 6. I will tell

22 you right away what my position is. You state here in relation to a

23 portion where you say a conflict between 1 and 6, that this is really a

24 clash between Sljivancanin and Borsinger, although, in keeping with your

25 report, under 1, you marked Pavkovic. I will now tell you that you were

Page 6791

1 not wrong in your report.

2 My theory is as follows: Mr. Kypr, it is certain that there was a

3 dialogue between Borsinger and Sljivancanin at the bridge. You saw that;

4 you testified about that. What I wish to tell you now is that you were

5 quite right in your report when you say that there was a clash between

6 Pavkovic and Borsinger and that this clash preceded what we watched

7 yesterday. In the same place before Sljivancanin talked to Borsinger

8 there had been a conversation between Pavkovic and Borsinger. We will now

9 analyse this document, and I think I will refresh your memory after all

10 and that the answer will not be, "I don't know." Let's give it a try.

11 This is how it goes: First the document, please, your report.

12 According to this report, you arrived at the Negoslavci headquarters at

13 about 6.45. That's what it says.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On the next page, or rather -- yes, on the next page, you

16 enumerate a number of persons from 1 to 6, persons mentioned in your

17 report. Is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE PARKER: If I could just intervene for the record, this is

20 tab 22, not 32.

21 Carry on, please, Mr. Lukic.

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] My apologies.

23 Q. Alongside these persons mentioned in what I will call the

24 introduction in relation to the 20th, you arrived at the headquarters in

25 Negoslavci, right?

Page 6792

1 A. I don't remember the place.

2 Q. But the place is Negoslavci, right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You say a short briefing with 1, and you have explained that. You

5 explained that this is a reference to Colonel Pavkovic. Well, now I will

6 again have to read, or perhaps you could. This is your handwriting. What

7 is stated under A? If you can, please, read that out for us, sir, or do

8 you want me to read it, if you have a problem with that?

9 A. No, I will try. "A) briefing by 1: Some streets are still mined,

10 we must wait. The organisation of convoy is JNA duty, JNA has enough

11 transport means. 'ECMM can only monitor, any objections after.'"

12 The third point is: "The wounded members of 'Croatian

13 paramilitary forces' must stay here (we have been told later by patients

14 that they have been captured and left the hospital before our arrival), as

15 well as some people of former personnel - Dr. Bosanac," and so on.

16 "ECMM team insisted that all wounded and all people and ill people

17 as medical crew should be transported (by the agreement), and that all

18 prisoners of war must be treated by Geneva Convention. ICRC should

19 provide and check the list of all people in hospital and in convoy."

20 Q. Thank you. You probably know this document by heart, you've read

21 it so many times, but let's leave it aside for the time being.

22 Can you now please look at Exhibit 333? Can we please put page 1

23 in B/C/S on the ELMO? This is tab 27 for you. This is a report by

24 Mr. Cunningham in relation to the same day and the same events. It's been

25 admitted. Can I please ask you to read out the first paragraph? If no, I

Page 6793

1 could do that for you.

2 A. It's difficult to me, so if you would be so kind.

3 Q. I'll read the B/C/S. I think the acronyms are good, and you can

4 tell me if they aren't. "On arrival at Colonel Pavkovic's HQ in

5 Negoslavci, the contentious points discussed the previous day were again

6 addressed."

7 A. Excuse me, sir, it is not on -- on the return, but on arrival in

8 the original. "On arrival at Colonel Pavkovic headquarters."

9 Q. Very well. I'll continue in English. I hope we have the B/C/S on

10 our screens so we can follow.

11 "[In English] Colonel Pavkovic remained firm that not all wounded

12 would be evacuated. As a result of direction from General Raseta, Croat

13 paramilitary wounded would have to remain as prisoners of war. He was

14 informed that the Geneva Convention must be applied. Colonel Pavkovic

15 also advised that the JNA had cleared the roads in their sector of all

16 mines. However, due to some damage in localised areas, the convoy would

17 have to bypass these spots. The convoy departed for Vukovar approximately

18 8.45 hours. The convoy was delayed approximately two hours in the centre

19 of Vukovar in order that the last mines could be cleared on the route to

20 the hospital."

21 [Interpretation] You saw your own report, you saw Colonel

22 Cunningham's report. You two were there together, right?

23 A. Please repeat your -- yes, we were there together.

24 Q. Colonel Pavkovic is clearly mentioned here as the person who

25 provided Mr. Cunningham with information to do with General Raseta's

Page 6794

1 instructions; isn't that right?

2 A. Yes, it is in the text.

3 Q. Can you please now go back to your own notes, the 20th of

4 November. The ERN in your diary is 772 and 773, last three digits. It's

5 what you mentioned to Mr. Moore. You read this out, and I will -- or

6 actually you might, because the first part of your portion on page 773 and

7 it begins with "the wounded members." If you can, please, sir, read that

8 out for us.

9 A. "The wounded men of paramilitary" -- sorry, I have to wait -- "of

10 paramilitary formations should stay here. That's definitely a solution

11 with General Raseta."

12 Q. Mr. Kypr, can we agree that what you established in this note is

13 quite consistent, if not identical to what Mr. Cunningham wrote in

14 paragraph 1 on his report which you've just read? Meaning that Pavkovic

15 said that not all of the wounded would be evacuated as a result of

16 instructions from General Raseta; isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. When Mr. Moore asked you about this particular portion of your

19 notes, you didn't know who said this. But now you've read Cunningham 's

20 report, and you now know that you wrote on the previous page that on

21 the 20th you were with Colonel Pavkovic. You will agree that it's a

22 distinct possibility that Colonel Pavkovic said this and this was recorded

23 by Mr. Cunningham, what you wrote in your own notes?

24 A. Yes. Those two texts refers to the same point. But in my remarks

25 I -- I have no evidence who -- who was the -- the speaker, so ...

Page 6795

1 Q. If we look at this, and I'm not going to read it, because you read

2 entire parts of your diary to the Prosecutor and all I can notice is that

3 it's perfectly consistent with this portion, but we'll move on to

4 something else now, to a different topic. So let's not dwell on this now.

5 Let us now talk about the incident at the bridge. I'm trying to

6 take a chronological approach here in terms of your report and other

7 documents.

8 In your report you said that -- well, shall we say in the centre

9 of Vukovar, and that should be near the bridge over the Vuka River, that

10 you waited there until 10.45. That's what your report says, right? And

11 as far as I remember, you testified -- you know which document I'm talking

12 about, right, that you were -- you testified that you were, together with

13 Mr. Schou and Cunningham, near the place where the dialogue between

14 Sljivancanin and Borsinger took place, right?

15 A. Yes, we were there.

16 Q. Now, this is what your report says. I will read it out to you.

17 This is under C, paragraph 2. What it reads, that's what I'm reading,

18 what it says. "The clash between 1 and a representative of the

19 International Committee of the Red Cross, number 6, who asked to assume

20 full responsibility of the hospital (they weren't allowed) the JNA

21 requested from the ICRC their written consent to assume full

22 responsibility of the hospital."

23 During your testimony you said that although 1 means Pavkovic in

24 your report, the actual clash occurred between Sljivancanin and Borsinger.

25 Is that right?

Page 6796

1 A. Yes, I do remember now. But, sir, there is a mistake in

2 translation. In my remarks there is, "They claimed written agreement,"

3 and you have said "saglasnost," which means [indiscernible], so permission

4 or something like that.

5 Q. I agree with you. What I am using is an official translation, but

6 only your original document constitutes evidence. So I don't think the

7 Chamber will have any problem with this.

8 If you can please now again look at Mr. Cunningham's report about

9 the same thing. What I'm about to read is a somewhat longish paragraph.

10 I think it's really essential that we clarify a number of points of here.

11 This is page 430, the last three digits, paragraph 7. The heading

12 is "ICRC leader behaviour-Vukovar evacuation."

13 "[In English] The ICRC representative first came to my attention

14 in the town of Negoslavci when I observed he and Colonel M, our JNA

15 liaison officer, having a heated argument about something. Some hours

16 later the ICRC representative unexpectedly joined my meeting with Colonel

17 Pavkovic. Purpose of the meeting was to resolve all points in the fax

18 message regarding the Vukovar Hospital evacuation. I explained that he

19 was responsible to action paragraph 6 of the fax and also responsible to

20 make and keep detailed lists of all persons leaving the hospital. He

21 departed the meeting with no explanation."

22 [Interpretation] Can we now please focus on this portion, and I

23 will ask you about the previous portion.

24 "[In English] The next time I saw him was in the middle of Vukovar

25 having a loud verbal shouting match/disagreement with Colonel Pavkovic.

Page 6797

1 Not wishing to be involved, the other two monitors and I retired to our

2 vehicle. I learned later that the argument centred on the fact that the

3 Vukovar Hospital was under the protection of the ICRC with all the

4 associated implications. Colonel Pavkovic stated that he had not been

5 informed and therefore he was proceeding with his plans. I contacted Z to

6 attempt to obtain some info. However, contact" -- I think

7 it's -- "contact was poor, and I did not receive the entire message.

8 Shortly after the ICRC representative approached my vehicle and demanded

9 in an abrasive manner to talk about the neutrality issues. I informed him

10 that I did not have all the facts and would only discuss the issue when I

11 had. I remind him of his responsibilities" -- I don't know what's the

12 meaning of "PD" -- "of neutrality and lists."

13 JUDGE PARKER: Period.

14 MR. LUKIC: Period, you're right.

15 Q. "Which he ask as having been told." Something is wrong. "He

16 departed in an agitated manner."

17 [Interpretation] Another brief portion: "[In English] After a

18 wait of some 1.30 hours, the convoy departed to the hospital where upon

19 the ICRC stormed into the" -- I don't know the meaning of "grds"?

20 JUDGE PARKER: Grounds.

21 MR. LUKIC: I thought so.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And in the previous paragraph "ack," acknowledged

23 rather than asked.

24 MR. LUKIC: I think so.

25 Q. "And I lost sight of him."

Page 6798

1 [Interpretation] Just to have this in a proper context, I will

2 finish this. "[In English] Next saw him in his vehicle shouting into a

3 microphone. At the request of STO, I asked if he had any control over the

4 proceeding. He replied no in a derogatory voice and answered that he was

5 going to hold a press conference to announce to the world what was

6 happening in Vukovar."

7 [Interpretation] First and foremost, this document authored by

8 Mr. Cunningham is what you provided to the OTP; isn't that so?

9 A. Sir, they are not on my copy. Yes, on -- on the page 1428 I can

10 see that, but not in -- on previous pages.

11 JUDGE PARKER: In -- could I comment for the record that in the

12 numbering, two pages appear to be in reverse order. One, the numbering

13 00331430 should come before 1429; and the handwritten numbering at the top

14 right-hand of 1 out of 3, 2 out of 3, 3 out of 3, pages 2 and 3 should be

15 reversed.

16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Ms. Tapuskovic is looking at me, and I

17 can tell you that all three teams spent considerable time putting those

18 documents together, and I believe the OTP must have too.

19 Q. Mr. Kypr, a few things to ask first, because I believe this

20 portion of the document merits our attention. Do you remember having seen

21 on the first day, or perhaps not the first day, but did you see Borsinger

22 in a confrontation with Colonel Memisevic? Perhaps you saw them having an

23 argument?

24 A. No, I don't remember.

25 Q. In one of your replies a minute ago, you said that you think he

Page 6799

1 joined one of the meetings. Colonel Cunningham mentions it was the 19th

2 at Pavkovic's office. Does this refresh your memory that Borsinger was

3 there at the time and that there was some sort of reaction by Colonel

4 Cunningham? You read out yourself what Mr. Cunningham told him on that

5 occasion.

6 A. No, I don't remember the situation there.

7 Q. Do you remember any comments made by Cunningham after the meeting

8 as you were going back to Belgrade or the next morning or perhaps by

9 Mr. Schou, according -- that is concerning his entries in the report?

10 A. No, sir, sorry.

11 Q. It states clearly here that Cunningham saw Pavkovic and Borsinger

12 had a disagreement in Vukovar. You would agree with me, I believe, that

13 what Mr. Cunningham states tallies with your report where you wrote that

14 there was an -- a confrontation between Pavkovic and Borsinger. That's

15 what your report reads and that tallies with what Mr. Cunningham wrote

16 down? Your report was the document that we read a moment ago.

17 Again, I will remind you to -- I will remind you of my theory. Do

18 you remember that before the confrontation, or dialogue between Borsinger

19 and Sljivancanin there was another argument by Borsinger and Pavkovic, and

20 that's what you entered in your report. Isn't that correct?

21 A. What I really have in my memory now is that it was a discussion

22 between Major Sljivancanin and a representative of International

23 Red Cross. And I am really not aware of anything more, so ...

24 Q. What you wrote in your report, that is confrontation between

25 Pavkovic and Borsinger, tallies completely with what Cunningham wrote

Page 6800

1 down?

2 A. Yes, it is, but still in my memory there is -- sorry. There is

3 Major Sljivancanin as an -- so what is written is written, what I remember

4 is -- is that. So it's what I can say about it. And maybe -- I do

5 remember that even in -- in my first testimony in the previous case I -- I

6 have mentioned maybe even Major Sljivancanin as discussing. So it's what

7 I remember. This is what was visible for me.

8 Q. Mr. Kypr, you testified in the Dokmanovic case, and it is certain

9 that my client spoke with Mr. Borsinger and you testify about that in that

10 case. But in addition to that, I wanted to ask you the following: What

11 you wrote in your report, does that tally with what Mr. Cunningham wrote

12 down? That's all I'm asking. And after the break we will show a

13 recording.

14 MR. MOORE: [Previous translation continues] ...

15 JUDGE PARKER: The position is being put, Mr. Lukic, whether there

16 is a mistaken identification between Major Sljivancanin and Colonel

17 Pavkovic. Could it not be that there were two separate incidents? One

18 involving your client and a separate one involving Colonel Pavkovic?

19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I will keep the suspense alive

20 after -- until after the break, because we will play a recording, and I

21 believe it will be interesting for all those participating in the

22 proceedings.

23 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry then. I thought that you were putting

24 one issue only, not seeing the other possibility.

25 We will resume at a quarter to 1.00.

Page 6801

1 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.

4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, could I just deal with one preliminary

5 matter, and I think the Court may have already notice of it. I think the

6 Ambassador has certain timing difficulties. I for my part --

7 JUDGE PARKER: Could I mention what we can do? Judge Thelin and I

8 are in a Plenary meeting all afternoon. We can sit through with the tape

9 until 2.15. We cannot sit beyond that. So that if Mr. Lukic can finish

10 in one hour, you can have 25 minutes. Even if Mr. Lukic can do it in 55

11 minutes, you can have half an hour.

12 MR. MOORE: I'm quite sure --

13 JUDGE PARKER: That will be near enough?

14 MR. MOORE: I'm sure Mr. Lukic can be done by half past 1.00, and

15 I can have three-quarters of an hour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Lukic.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will see whether I will

18 able to meet your expectations time-wise.

19 I would kindly ask the usher for the assistance. Let's see

20 Exhibit 318; that is the recording of the conversation at the bridge.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can stop here.

23 Q. I wanted to remind you that at the beginning of the dialogue

24 Mr. Borsinger says, "The colonel knows what the problem is, ah, there he

25 comes." And we don't need to proceed with the recording.

Page 6802

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now go back to

2 the old-fashioned way and -- to look at a portion of the videotape? I

3 forwarded the transcript of the dialogue to the OTP and to the registry.

4 Perhaps that can be provided for the Bench. And the interpreters have

5 that as well. I would like to apologise for a poor recording, but I

6 believe during recertification I will be able to get a hold of a version

7 that is of better quality. We didn't plan to use this this early, but we

8 wanted to have that introduced with Mr. Kypr.

9 Q. Mr. Kypr, do you have before you the transcript of what we are

10 about to see?

11 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the witness

12 received his copy. Could we please begin with the recording?

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kypr, first of all, did you recognise anyone

16 in the recording?

17 A. Mr. Borsinger.

18 Q. And you recognised him as having a conversation with Sljivancanin.

19 Do you recognise Colonel Pavkovic on the recording, because you spoke with

20 him on that very day, and the day before?

21 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 Q. Do you recognise -- I believe you need to repeat your answer?

23 A. [Previous translation continues] ... No, I don't remember the

24 face.

25 Q. Do you recognise the locality or do you recognise anyone else; for

Page 6803

1 example, Colonel Memisevic?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The recording you saw, you don't remember being there before the

4 dialogue between Borsinger and Sljivancanin occurred. But yet you put

5 that in your report to remind you an argument between Pavkovic and

6 Borsinger. One can read that in your report.

7 A. What I do remember is that I saw the discussion -- that I saw the

8 discussion between Major Sljivancanin and Mr. Borsinger. On this footage

9 I saw the place that it is near the bridge or on the bridge, but I cannot

10 say precisely where it is, if it is on -- on which place directly.

11 Q. Could you confirm for me whether you stated in your report that

12 there was an argument between Pavkovic under your number 1, and Borsinger,

13 number 6. Is that what is stated in your report?

14 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I mark this footage as

16 video one. Could that be tendered as an exhibit? And the transcript, in

17 its electronic version, be marked as 0D05-0318, and I'd like to tender

18 that separately. I again can say that this is the recording I have, and I

19 will try to get a better copy over Easter vacation.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Both the video -- oh, Mr. Moore.

21 MR. MOORE: Yes, with regard to the video, I have no objection to

22 that being admitted as an exhibit.

23 With regard to the transcript, I don't know if it assists my

24 learned friend, on page 4, second -- the penultimate comment by Nicholas

25 Borsinger, I heard, "Because since I was blocked." Now, I see my learned

Page 6804

1 friend Mr. Lukic agreeing with that. If in actual fact the word

2 is "blocked," and it seems to be it's agreed, then I will agree to the

3 transcript, subject to the Defence -- subject to the Prosecution having,

4 as it were, another look at the transcript itself. But certainly that's

5 the one alteration that was very obvious.

6 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Just to explain - Mr. Moore reminded

7 me of something - we forwarded this for official translation, and perhaps

8 this can temporarily be marked for identification, and the official

9 translation will be provided for the translation service, and that will be

10 the exhibit then. For the time being, it can be MFI.

11 JUDGE PARKER: The video will be received as an exhibit. The

12 transcript of it will be marked for identification.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the video will be exhibit

14 number 335, while the transcript will be MFI 336.

15 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Let us move on, Mr. Kypr, to try to wrap things up. Yesterday you

17 told my learned colleague, Mr. Vasic, you said that you don't remember who

18 told you once you were at the hospital that some patients had been taken

19 away already.

20 I will remind you of your testimony in the Dokmanovic case on the

21 11th of February, 1998, page 1374. The question by the OTP: "[In

22 English] Did anyone tell you whether or not other patients had already

23 been removed?"

24 Answer: "Yes, we were told both by the patients and by the

25 hospital staff that we met in the hospital. They told us that some of the

Page 6805

1 patients had already been taken away, and also some of the doctors had

2 been taken away."

3 Question: "Did they say which of the patients had been taken

4 away?"

5 Answer: "I don't remember anybody specifying any names."

6 Question: "But did they -- okay."

7 Answer: "As for names, I know that Dr. Bosanac was missing."

8 Question: "No, I'm not after names. I'm asking, were there any

9 particular types of patients or persons that had been removed? Were you

10 informed of that?"

11 Answer: "Yes, we had been told that these are the patients that

12 Yugoslav army had been suspected of being Croatian soldiers."

13 [Interpretation] I presume you remember those events back in 1998

14 more than you do today. And this is what you stated in 1998, you

15 described the persons who provided information to you.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you entered the hospital after 10.45 you entered together

18 with Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Schou; isn't that so?

19 A. I -- I don't remember the situation when I first time went into

20 the hospital. But I believe so, that we were three.

21 Q. Do you remember discussing the information you received from the

22 patients and the medical staff between the three of you at the time?

23 A. I don't remember real situation.

24 Q. Were you as members of the team together in the hospital, did you

25 leave the hospital together that day?

Page 6806

1 A. What I remember is that during the whole day I was mostly alone

2 working outside. In few cases I went into the hospital, but I believe

3 that Dr. Schou was mostly inside. We were for lunch to eat our -- to eat

4 our packets of food, so I believe that we were together in that time, but

5 I can't say more. It was a really dramatic situation, so I can't

6 remember.

7 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any of the other members of the team

8 telling Mr. Borsinger what they heard, what they were told by the medical

9 staff in the hospital?

10 A. I don't remember.

11 Q. In your testimony the other day you said you spent the evening in

12 Sremska Mitrovica. You arrived there on a convoy, and you were there

13 together with Mr. Schou and some other people. My question, therefore, is

14 if you discussed this with the civilians who were there and whether they

15 told you that some of those people had been taken away and some were on

16 the convoy?

17 A. No, there was no time to speak with them so much, so I had to

18 inform them about the situation, what will be the next procedure. And

19 there were many places I had to do that, so I don't remember that -- that

20 I have got any of those informations and ...

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yours, Mr. Lukic, won't switch on; mine won't

22 switch off.

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Either yourself or any of your colleagues, did you ask

Page 6807

1 Mr. Borsinger for the lists of the wounded when you saw him there and when

2 he was giving an interview to the journalists in the hospital that day?

3 Did you ask him whether he had any lists and whether -- and did you ask

4 him to give them to you?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. When you reached the hospital at 10.45, did anyone prevent you

7 from moving about the hospital, to be present when the wounded were being

8 taken in or to list people? Were you prevented to do that by anyone at

9 the hospital?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you reached the hospital, did you see anyone preventing

12 Nicholas Borsinger to enter the hospital when -- either Mr. Borsinger or

13 some other representatives of the ICRC?

14 A. I don't remember. I don't know.

15 Q. In your diary you wrote - let me just find that - what the ICRC

16 would do. This is page 774, that's the ERN number. You wrote: "The ICRC

17 will check the wounded based on the list at the beginning of the

18 evacuation and after." That's what you wrote.

19 What I'm asking you is: Did you actually see the ICRC, any of

20 their men, do this while you were at the hospital?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. You were asked by the Prosecutor about the loading process, the

23 wounded boarding the buses. Can we please now go to tab 27, Exhibit 333?

24 What Mr. Cunningham, your colleague, wrote in that report.

25 I'll be reading the English, just to hurry things along. I'm

Page 6808

1 reading paragraph 2: "[In English] As a result" --

2 [Interpretation] I'm just reading the bit that's relevant for me.

3 "[In English] Inordinate amount of confusion" --

4 A. Sir, excuse me, I can't find this paragraph.

5 Q. Sir, I'm sorry, I didn't give you the reference. It's

6 paragraph 2. Page 1, paragraph 2, line 4. "[In English] When the

7 hospital evacuation first started, walking wounded, elderly people and

8 children streamed out of the hospital en masse."

9 A. Excuse me, sir, I cannot find it in my text. Can you help me

10 with ...

11 Q. [Interpretation] I'm quoting a document that is at tab 27,

12 Mr. Cunningham's report. I'm reading from paragraph 2 on page 1, midway

13 through the paragraph, roughly speaking.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you got that now, sir?

16 "[In English] The majority of the old administration instead of

17 helping evacuation the hospital or -- or care for the injured sat in front

18 of the building in the hospital compound doing nothing. Ambulance had

19 some difficulty getting to the hospital door and crowd of extraneous

20 personnel congregated in front of the hospital doors, effectively impeding

21 the orderly movement of the wounded into the waiting ambulances."

22 JUDGE PARKER: "Impeding. Effectively impeding." Preventing.

23 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This document has already been admitted. We don't need to go on

25 reading this.

Page 6809

1 But, sir, you said you spent most of the time outside in the

2 courtyard and not inside the hospital. Do you remember scenes like these,

3 like the one described by Mr. Cunningham about loading the wounded?

4 A. I remember that we had problems in the entrance, because people,

5 many people were moving in and out. And I remember a group of -- of

6 people who were standing and sitting near the hospital with very sad

7 faces. It's all what is in my memory as a -- is that picture.

8 Q. These same facts are also stated in Exhibit 321, the official

9 report compiled by the Zagreb mission, but I'm not dwelling on that now.

10 You have just told me what you remember, and we can take it from there.

11 Can you please now go to tab 20? It's the Zagreb agreement, so to

12 say, Raseta's agreement. [In English] Exhibit 40, Your Honour.

13 [Interpretation] Can you please look at paragraph 1 of the

14 agreement indicating who the parties are. It says: "Agreement concerning

15 the evacuation convoy for wounded and patients of the Vukovar Hospital";

16 is that right? If could you please look at paragraph 4, the

17 second sentence of paragraph 4. "Both parties will provide suitably

18 equipped and manned ambulances for some 40 seriously ill and lorries or

19 coaches, as appropriate, for the remaining 360 or so casualties of whom

20 around a third will be stretcher cases."

21 That's what the agreement states, doesn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is there any reference in this agreement to doctors and medical

24 staff? Yes or no, sir.

25 A. I have to go through the whole --

Page 6810

1 Q. Since you are about to, what I want to know is about doctors,

2 medical staff, other hospital employees or civilians. What about these

3 three categories? Is there any reference in this document to any of

4 these?

5 A. I cannot see that now.

6 Q. Very well. I will now remind you what, and this is Exhibit 319,

7 this is Mr. Borsinger's statement that we looked at some days ago, what he

8 stated on that occasion, just to keep us from going back to the

9 transcript, so what I'll do is read a portion out to you.

10 Mr. Borsinger says: "[In English] According to this agreement,

11 access to the hospital and compound in which we are now standing was

12 limited to sick and wounded civilians and military personnel. This is the

13 first category. The second category was civilians who were not

14 participating in the conflict. The third category were medical personnel

15 and administrative staff of the hospital. And the fourth was ICRC

16 delegates. Point three of this agreement was that no weapons would be

17 allowed in the neutralised zone, and any military materials will be

18 removed from the compound."

19 [Interpretation] Does this agreement reflect any of the things

20 specified by Mr. Borsinger, the one you've just gone through?

21 A. I don't remember that as a whole, but I think that no.

22 Q. Very well. Sir, what about paragraph 4 of the agreement? There

23 is some reference there to 40 seriously ill persons and about 360 wounded.

24 This is the agreement dated the 18th.

25 Now, your document, your report, that's at tab 22, your report

Page 6811

1 dated the 20th, if you could go to that, please. You establish under d,

2 Vukovar Hospital. Can you follow, sir? "Cellar of the former medical

3 centre and nuclear shelter. Crowded with patients (300 to 400)." You

4 wrote this, didn't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Very well. Can we now please go to tab 34? When Vesna Bosanac

7 spoke to your colleagues at Mitrovica, you weren't present, but this is on

8 page 08 for you, the very first line. "[In English] 392 wounded in

9 hospital."

10 [Interpretation] This is what she stated to your colleagues, and

11 the transcript was based on her statement, wasn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you could now please go to tab 25. Exhibit 321. If we could

14 please have the B/C/S on our screens. The page is 03040387. This is

15 page 3 in the B/C/S, where it says "Belgrade and Sarajevo teams." I

16 believe it's page 3 in English as well. It reads -- this is the official

17 report from your mission in Zagreb, right, this document?

18 This is how it reads: "At 1430 hours the team reported, a,

19 that 82 wounded were loaded on an ambulance; b, that 263 injured persons

20 who were still able to walk boarded the bus; c, the convoy included 17

21 doctors, 6 nurses, and 11 escort personnel. At this point in time 110

22 wounded patients remained in the hospital awaiting arrangements for

23 transfer to Belgrade or Novi Sad. A further 52 patients were also in the

24 hospital because of insufficient transport. Plans were made for these to

25 be collected the following day."

Page 6812

1 Is this what your team reported at 1430 hours, as I read in the

2 heading? Do you remember that?

3 A. I don't remember that. And I doubt that it was my team, because

4 we were in the spot where the communication with our mobile phones was not

5 possible. So I believe that -- or some other team or when we came

6 somewhere on the top, but I don't remember.

7 Q. At any rate, this information was forwarded to your headquarters

8 in Zagreb because they eventually produced this document, didn't they?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. I will not be dealing with these documents any further. I think

11 I'm about to wrap it up as far as documents are concerned.

12 There is a portion of your testimony in the Dokmanovic case that

13 triggered my curiosity and you haven't spoken about this. This is page 76

14 of the transcript, but I think you may be able to remember the relevant

15 portion even without looking at it. Do you remember that when you arrived

16 outside the hospital there was a desk or some sort of a wheelchair or a

17 table with some sharp implements on top of it? You testified about this

18 in the Dokmanovic case. Do you remember that, sir?

19 A. Yes, I remember that.

20 Q. What was that exactly? Will you tell the Chamber, please, about

21 this. What exactly did you see, and where exactly was this? There is a

22 sketch that you drew at the time, and we can show you the sketch for you

23 to refresh your memory.

24 This is -- if we can have this displayed on our screens, please,

25 the diagram. 0D05-0026, if that can be shown, please.

Page 6813

1 This is tab 36 for you, sir, for your reference. It will soon

2 come up on the screen. Please tell us what that is.

3 A. Yes. You can see the sketch of the hospital in the very centre,

4 and there is a way down to the entrance to the cellar. It is from the

5 right side of the sketch. Number 1, there was a heap of around 100 plus,

6 but maybe less, I didn't count it, of sharp things. Scissors, small

7 knives, Swiss knives, some scalpels, I do remember. And a very similar

8 situation was in number 2. It was a hospital trolley, on which there was

9 a heap of those things.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Can we please have this sketch

11 admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 337.

14 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Do you now remember, did you ask any questions about where those

16 implements came from? Did you ask anyone about those implements?

17 A. No.

18 Q. We'll have to go back to a particular document briefly. This is

19 tab 22, sir. Your report of the 20th. Just a minute, please.

20 As far as I can see, under h) it says that on the 21st of November

21 you and Mr. Schou went to the Negoslavci headquarters, that's what it

22 says. It goes on to say: "Briefing in Negoslavci HQ. Number 2 took 3

23 buses."

24 Do you remember that time you went to Negoslavci and when you

25 spoke to General Crmaric. Crmaric, Jerko Crmaric?

Page 6814

1 A. It is my text, but I don't remember those meetings.

2 Q. Do you by any chance remember that on the 21st when, according to

3 this report, you were in Negoslavci Borsinger came over to speak to my

4 client about the problem that had arisen? Does this trigger a memory,

5 does this ring a bell?

6 A. I don't remember. What I know, that we -- we got a list of

7 patients from ICRC, but it was in the hospital, I believe, not -- not on

8 the meeting. But I cannot guarantee that.

9 Q. Mr. Kypr, I'm about to wrap it up. I'm now reaching my two final

10 conclusions, based on the course of my cross-examination. Please tell me

11 if you agree with these.

12 Based on all these reports and documents that we have been

13 analysing for the last couple of days, in relation to the taking away of

14 patients from the Vukovar Hospital before your arrival, the only reference

15 in your document, in this document, is where you say that a number of

16 patients told you this or that. But you can't find any reference in any

17 of the other documents, the document compiled by Mr. Cunningham or the one

18 compiled by the Zagreb mission. Is that right?

19 A. You said so. I don't remember if there is any evidence on that.

20 Q. We've gone through the documents indicating the number of wounded.

21 I will ask you to please go back to the final part of the conclusion of

22 the Zagreb mission; this is tab 25, Exhibit 321. The figures are there.

23 The conclusion under 11, number 11. Can you please read that conclusion

24 out for us?

25 A. "The number of sick and wounded handed over and then subsequently

Page 6815

1 delivered to Djakovo are in line with the agreement, e.g., around 400 or

2 so."

3 Q. My theory, Mr. Kypr, is that the persons who were taken away no

4 doubt before you reached the hospital, were not patients of the Vukovar

5 Hospital, because the number tallies with what had been agreed on the 18th

6 of November and with whatever was indicated in the Zagreb report. Do you

7 agree with me on that?

8 A. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 Q. I was expecting this sort of an answer.

10 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I have hereby concluded my

11 cross-examination, Your Honours.

12 Q. Just for the previous answer --

13 A. [Previous translation continues] ... Yes.

14 MR. MOORE: I'm afraid I didn't hear any answer.

15 JUDGE PARKER: We will have to pick up the last two answers,

16 Mr. Lukic. I suspect they're important to you.

17 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. May the witness please answer?

19 A. I cannot confirm that.

20 JUDGE PARKER: If you would speak now, please, Mr. Kypr.

21 THE WITNESS: I cannot confirm that.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Lukic.

23 Mr. Moore.

24 Re-examination by Mr. Moore:

25 Q. May I deal, please, with certain topics, and I will try and do it

Page 6816

1 sequentially.

2 You were asked about the -- what I will call the Bapska

3 ultimatum. And if we look at what we now call Exhibit 305, that's tab 6.

4 Would you be kind enough, please, to turn your documents, and I will deal

5 with it, I hope, fairly quickly.

6 Now, you should have in front of you handwritten document starting

7 RCB, is that right, and on the top right-hand corner you've got numbers 1

8 to 7 or 1/7. Do you see that or not?

9 A. Yes, I can see that.

10 Q. All right. Well, if we can just move two lines down from the top,

11 we can see team 7, 8th of October, 1991. Mission Ilok, see Annex A. Can

12 you just confirm that, please, in a loud voice?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 A. I can see that.

16 Q. Now, we can see if we turn over the page we have got 1 of 7, 2, 3,

17 4, then we have got what seems to be Annex A, but it's -- just carrying

18 on, 5 of 7, which is almost in the top of the middle. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then 6 of 7. And if we turn over, we can see 7 of 7, it was

21 clearly Annex A, but for whatever reasons been made annex C. Do you see

22 that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So with regard to the question, the Bapska ultimatum, is it right

25 or not that in actual fact that that ultimatum, I will use the word

Page 6817

1 travelled with that particular report or using the numbers? Do you

2 understand the question?

3 A. Yes, according to my own knowledge, yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on then, please. You were asked

5 about the overall situation in relation to Bapska and the surrounding

6 area. And you said it was difficult to describe the sort of environment

7 that you were working in. What I want to know, please, is what did you

8 mean by the sort of environment that you were working in when you were

9 asked about that?

10 A. I remember that we saw in one village already burning house, in

11 other villages there were burnt houses. So the situation was very, very

12 sad.

13 Q. And what about JNA control or military control existing around

14 Ilok and Bapska and those other places that you visited?

15 A. We were told by JNA that there is no JNA in this part of -- of the

16 territory, because they cannot guarantee us safety if they are there, so

17 our safety is -- is fully guaranteed. It's what we were told. What I

18 saw, there were some groups of volunteers, as I described in -- in my

19 remarks about Lovas, and entrance to Lovas, but we saw another group

20 during our way, I believe, near Sarengrad, but I -- I'm not sure.

21 Q. All right. Well, can I deal with -- I'll deal with Lovas now, if

22 I may. You were asked various questions by Mrs. Tapuskovic and the drive

23 of the questions seemed to be that there was -- the ICRC had basically not

24 fulfilled the requirements or standards that you would normally require --

25 my words.

Page 6818

1 Now, could I ask you, please, to look at tab 26? It's our

2 Exhibit 322. And I would like you to look, please, at the page number

3 00381426. The subheading is "the Belgrade regional centre." Have you got

4 that in front of you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want to deal with the point how easy it was for the ICRC to do

7 their work. If we deal with paragraph 11, can we start, please, four

8 lines down. With the sentence beginning "however." Would you be kind

9 enough to read that out, please?

10 A. Yeah.

11 Q. Have you got it?

12 A. "However when the team arrived in Vukovar they found that the JNA

13 were running the operation. The International Red Cross had been ejected

14 from the hospital at 2000 hours on the 19th of November."

15 Q. Thank you. So that's 2000 hours. Can I just then direct you to

16 the transcript, which the Defence, if I can locate it, the Defence have

17 provided to us.

18 MR. MOORE: If Your Honour will forgive me one moment.

19 Q. This is a document that is marked for identification. Do you have

20 a copy of that transcript of the video that was shown to you by Mr. Lukic?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Would you be kind enough, please, to just turn to bottom of the

23 page or bottom corner, page number 4? Have you got that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I'll read it out, makes it easier perhaps. Borsinger's last reply

Page 6819

1 of that day: "Because since I was blocked" -- as I submit that it is.

2 Turn over the page. Borsinger: "No, no, I meant to be." Then going on

3 again. Borsinger: "I meant to be ... according to this agreement I meant

4 to be in the hospital since last night at 8.00."

5 Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Can I just ask you, please, to look at one

8 other document? It is tab 25. That is our Exhibit 321, I believe. And

9 I'll try and find the page. Yes. It's page 1419. It comes under the

10 general heading of Vukovar relief mission, but I would like you to look at

11 page 1419, b, (i), and it relates to the 20th. Now, have you got that?

12 A. [No audible response].

13 Q. Thank you very much. Perhaps if I read it. On the 20th of

14 November, and then it goes on to say about going to Vukovar, may I drop

15 down, then, six lines, just after "drunk and aggressive, dead bodies were

16 visible in the ruins. On arrival at hospital, they found that the JNA

17 were in control and the International Red Cross had not been permitted

18 entry to the hospital to begin the registration of sick and wounded."

19 Have you got that?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Yes. So, when in actual fact Ms. Tapuskovic, or counsel on behalf

22 of Mr. Radic, asked you questions about the ability or capability of the

23 ICRC being able to do their job on the evening of the 19th and indeed

24 the 20th, do you rely on these documents or your own knowledge? Can you

25 assist us? Or a combination of both?

Page 6820

1 A. It's a combination of both. Because after 15 years, it's

2 difficult to rely only on my memory.

3 Q. All right. Thank you very much, indeed. You have been asked

4 questions about your evidence in the Dokmanovic case by counsel on behalf

5 of Mr. Radic. And I'd like to deal with a part of that. If I may be

6 allowed just to locate it. Yes, it really relates to the visit to Lovas

7 and the fact you were asked about the military commander. The reference

8 is, I believe, page 10, line 13. And the suggestion was that the

9 gentleman that you considered to be apparently a little unstable, that he

10 had obtained provisions for the village. Do you remember that -- that

11 piece of evidence that was referred to by my learned friend?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now, I want you to look, please, at the totality of the evidence

14 that you gave in relation to this situation at Lovas.

15 Would it be possible, please, for the registry to be able to turn

16 up that page? It is page number -- as I have it, 1364. I believe you may

17 find it on ERN 1351 through to 1383, but I can't guarantee that.

18 Yes, is there any way that it can be blown up so that people can

19 read it? Because I certainly can't. Can you read it, Mr. Kypr? I know

20 you have problems with your eyesight?

21 A. Yes, yes, I can.

22 Q. Can it be expanded?

23 A. Yeah, you mean the whole page?

24 Q. I'm going to ask for the page to be enlarged because it really --

25 you need almost a magnifying glass. So page 1364, I think, will be the

Page 6821

1 starting point.

2 A. May I use my hard copy?

3 Q. If you've got a hard copy, I have no objection. Thank you very

4 much. Have you got a series of hard copies, a number of pages, or just

5 one?

6 A. I have the whole --

7 Q. Thank you very much. Excellent.

8 A. -- Testimony.

9 Q. Can we go top right-hand corner, page 1364.

10 A. Yes. "Commander" --

11 Q. Can I go to line 7.

12 A. Line 7.

13 Q. The question was: "Did he say what his position was, if you can

14 recall."

15 Answer: "I think if I remember it correctly, he said he was the

16 military commander and he also said he was -- what would be a mayor."

17 There we are that's much better.

18 Question: "The mayor of the town. Did he say to you why it was

19 necessary that Lovas was attacked?"

20 Answer: "He explained to us that the attack was necessary because

21 in the village there was a Serb minority and they were being threatened by

22 the Croat population.

23 "Did he speak of the need to change the ethnic balance in the

24 town?

25 "If I remember correctly, he did.

Page 6822

1 "Can you tell us, elaborate just a little bit more on that. What

2 did he say?

3 "This was rather surprising, because he was saying that it was

4 essential that the Serb people were moved into the village from the other

5 areas, to change the structure that is unnatural because there was this

6 majority of Croats, but honestly, I do not know whether I remember this

7 correctly because we are talking about a time seven years ago."

8 Now this is the question that I want to deal with, please: "Did

9 he say whether the JNA had played any role in the taking of Lovas?

10 "No, and this again surprised me, because he said that he had

11 invested money and equipment, that he had provided equipment for the unit,

12 that he had liberated the village, that he had invested I cannot remember

13 how many Deutschmarks. I honestly cannot remember how many."

14 Question: "From the observations you made in this region, and

15 having regard to the attacks on the various villages that you witnessed,

16 did you form any view as to the approach that was being taken by the

17 forces on the Serb side in relation to the military tactics of both the

18 JNA, the volunteers and the paramilitaries?"

19 Answer: "What was interesting, perhaps, was that the Yugoslav

20 army rather held positions in the area where these villages were located

21 and there were groups that we referred to as, 'paramilitary groups', at

22 that time."

23 And may I ask, please, to look down at line 25?

24 "What role did the paramilitary groups play, so far as you are

25 able to observe?"

Page 6823

1 Answer: "These were the forces of the first attack, but this is a

2 matter of what we were told, in fact, because in view of the rules under

3 which we operated, we were never in the areas where paramilitary

4 operations were proceeding."

5 I'm sorry to read out such a large part, but I'd like you to look,

6 if you would be kind enough, please, to a document that you've been

7 referred to by both Prosecution and Defence. Would you be kind enough to

8 turn up tab 13? Now, there is reference to Lovas with 26 destroyed

9 houses. Have you got that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. "Some were damaged, some very severely." The damage itself, can

12 you remember how the damage had been caused? There's 26 damaged houses.

13 A. Yes. I remember pictures I made there, and it reminds me even

14 more, because they were burnt. I -- I can't remember impacts of grenades,

15 of shells, but I remember that they were burnt totally, even -- even

16 garage with tractors and so.

17 Q. Thank you. So when one deals with the report on tab 17,

18 Exhibit 312, I'd like you to look at page 381382, and you said that you

19 weren't aware if Lovas was used. There is a reference to burning and

20 looting. Does this report and the general conclusion correspond with what

21 you found at Lovas in relation to the burning?

22 A. Yes, it -- maybe it relates to that, but I don't know if it is the

23 concrete reason for it.

24 Q. Thank you very much. Can I deal then with two other topics, I

25 think, and that will be it. There is reference at tab 27, you have been

Page 6824

1 asked about it. It's Exhibit 334, and I want to go to the handwritten

2 version. So it will be page number 00381448. I'm told it's 333, I

3 apologise. Now, can you go to that page number ending 1448? Have you got

4 that?

5 A. No, I don't catch the right tab, probably.

6 Q. All right. It's my fault, I'm sure. Tab 27.

7 A. Tab 27, yes.

8 Q. It should subdivide into two specific documents. One is typed

9 which has been called Cunningham's report, and then there is a handwritten

10 report.

11 A. I have only the first page as the handwritten report.

12 Q. Have you got page 1448?

13 A. In my file it has no those -- there is ZA00-4265, so it's

14 identification at the top of the page.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much. I can deal with it orally

16 anyway.

17 What is said is that the hospital at Vukovar was visited. And

18 there was a suggestion that from the rooftop planes were shot at.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.

20 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise for

21 interrupting, but it would be fair if we knew what document exactly, and

22 the witness should know as well. Maybe it's document bearing the number

23 of Ky-V-18. It's not amongst the tabs.

24 MR. MOORE: In actual fact, it's my fault because it is a Defence

25 exhibit which I have put into that tab for relevance. So in actual fact

Page 6825

1 it is a Defence exhibit, I think, and it was given the number 334. I

2 apologise for that. I'm using my own filing system.

3 Q. But I will read it out. It's not a problem, I think. The

4 suggestion is that from the rooftop planes were shot at. Now, when you

5 got to Vukovar yourself, and the Vukovar Hospital, did you ever go to the

6 roof personally?

7 A. Yes. It was part of our task to observe the situation, and I

8 believe that I went with Mr. Cunningham, but I cannot guarantee to -- to

9 the roof.

10 Q. And why did you go to the roof?

11 A. To observe the situation in hospital.

12 Q. Had there been any suggestion that the roof had been used for

13 weapons?

14 A. No, I have no such an evidence. We didn't see any traces. Any

15 ammunition there or something like that.

16 Q. Thank you. And just for clarification, I think Cunningham is a

17 colonel, or was a colonel, Cunningham, of the Canadian army; is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes, it's true.

20 Q. Thank you very much. And then finally this -- it's always

21 dangerous for a barrister to say "finally." Can I deal with the group of

22 people you were told by patients that a group of people had been removed

23 before you had got there from the hospital. In respect of the JNA, did

24 anyone from the JNA inform you that a group had been removed and taken

25 away before you arrived?

Page 6826

1 A. I don't remember. But maybe there is even problem in

2 understanding what was removed, because it can be personnel and

3 Dr. Bosanac, we asked especially for her, so then it's a question of

4 people, which type of people, and I cannot answer that.

5 Q. And where did Cunningham go, that afternoon?

6 A. I believe that it was even in the morning. Or be in the -- soon

7 afternoon. He -- he went to -- to organise the situation and he went

8 to -- to Belgrade ---

9 Q. Thank you very much.

10 A. -- I believe.

11 Q. And this is my last question. Did anyone from the JNA ever say to

12 you what I will call the Raseta agreement was cancelled or did not exist?

13 A. No, I don't remember.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. MOORE: Well, that concludes the questions that I have.

16 JUDGE PARKER: We are very grateful to counsel. And I'm sure the

17 ambassador is grateful as well, because you will be pleased to know that

18 concludes the evidence. We would like to thank you for coming to

19 The Hague, for the assistance you've given us, and despite the strain it's

20 been with your eyes, to try and assist us in these last days.

21 We will now adjourn to resume tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.09 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day of

24 March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.