1 Thursday, 30 March 2006
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.21 a.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to everybody. We hope the technical
7 problems that delayed the start have been overcome.
8 Good morning, sir.
9 THE WITNESS: Morning.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please take the affirmation and read it
12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
13 whole truth and nothing but the truth.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down. Now if
15 you'll excuse me a minute, there is a matter that I want to attend to.
16 Could I mention, Mr. Moore, that much time was spent in
17 cross-examination and examination with the last witness over the
18 transcript of the notes. I don't believe that that is in -- been
19 exhibited. Is it something that you would wish to have exhibited?
20 MR. MOORE: If Your Honour forgive me, I misunderstand. Are you
21 talking about the transcript that rolls through, or transcript in relation
22 to the --
23 JUDGE PARKER: It's my use of the word "transcript," my fault.
24 The notes -- the typed version of the notes or diary kept by the
1 MR. MOORE: I thought they had been exhibited. If they have not,
2 I will make an application for them to be exhibited. I would have thought
3 in any event they would have to go in with the handwritten version,
4 because that is the source of it. And some of that document is written in
5 English. If they have not been exhibited, I would make an application for
6 them to go in as A and B, perhaps.
7 JUDGE PARKER: We will have that question clarified. You are
8 suggesting to me they may have been exhibited as part of the exhibit which
9 is the diary or the notes themselves.
10 MR. MOORE: To be quite honest, I can't remember.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Nor can I. It seemed to me, though, that they had
12 not been. And I haven't marked my copy, which I usually would, if it had
13 been exhibited. So we will have that clarified.
14 MR. MOORE: Yes.
15 JUDGE PARKER: And we can come back to it, if necessary.
16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
17 Your Honour, might I just, if Your Honour has concluded on that,
18 we have prepared a short bundle. The Court, I hope, has got a copy for
19 this witness. It should say "Dr. Schou." There are a small number of
20 tabs. What I have done is I have continued the tab numbering so that it
21 flows from what I will call the Kypr tabs. So Ambassador Kypr, the bundle
22 there, ran up, I think, to 37. Some of them, I think, were not exhibited.
23 But they can always be deleted and removed. And these, then, continue
24 on 38 through to 42 inclusive. The reason is, I hope, reasonably
25 straightforward. They are in the same mission, and Dr. Schou may well be
1 referred to some of the earlier documents or exhibits, and for assistance,
2 if they are referred to by way of tab number, then we can go immediately
3 to it rather than try and find out which is which. That's the first
5 The second is there is an index which the Court should have. The
6 Court and my learned friends have got it in two pages, I've got it in
7 three because of my failing eyesight, and that relates to all the exhibits
8 that have already been placed before the Court. And then there is 65 ter
9 numbers. To assist the administration, we have got the ERN numbers, you
10 can see in red for court officer in the top right-hand corner, and the
11 B/C/S version so if there is any difficulty, it's there.
12 And then, finally, if I ask the Court, please, to turn to tab 42,
13 this is not a document my learned friends have seen; indeed, I have not
14 seen before last night. It is a Danish newspaper that was brought by the
15 witness we did not have. The date is the 21st of November, and it relates
16 to -- it is in Danish, it has not been translated for obvious reasons.
17 And there is a part of it that I would seek to refer to.
18 So that just, I hope, assists. The 21st of November document,
19 the 42nd tab, relates to, to help my learned friend, that this doctor made
20 a phone call to a journalist in Denmark saying that a number of people
21 were missing from the hospital and that he was aware of it on that day.
22 I see Mr. Lukic.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
24 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to express the position of
25 the Defence.
1 All three teams agree as for the latest document mentioned by Mr.
2 Moore, we object to even discussing this document, first and foremost
3 because we received it this morning in our lockers; hence, the dead-line
4 of 24 hours had not been met. We were unable to run through the document,
5 we were unable to check it, it's in Danish, and irrespective of the
6 witness's ability to perhaps translate that a vista, this goes against our
7 position and against the system used at this Tribunal, and it would go
8 against the rules and the dead-lines set as for the disclosure to the
9 other party.
10 MR. MOORE: I have no problems with that at all. Can my learned
11 friend please remove that document? I will not rely on the document
12 itself, but I am perfectly entitled to ask this doctor what he actually
13 did. The evidence will go in that way. If my learned friend wishes to
14 helpfully approach the case in this way, then I will correspondingly do
15 so. We will not rely on the document, but we will rely on the evidence.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Moore, if you are ready to proceed.
17 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] This again changes the usual practice.
20 We have his statement, but we haven't been notified of this new
21 information that the OTP learned while proofing the witness, and again we
22 hear it for the first time, hence this presents a new OTP policy.
23 Therefore, we are against posing questions on facts that we haven't been
24 prior -- notified about before that.
25 MR. MOORE: As I have already said to my learned friend, I saw
1 this document for the first time last night. If in actual fact my learned
2 friend is going to be technical about it, I will not seek an adjournment,
3 I will proceed with this evidence. He has got notice of it now, and I
4 will make an application for an adjournment and call it first thing
5 tomorrow morning, which is 24 hours notice.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, instead of firing off quickly, if you
7 pause and allow the Chamber to intervene, it might make life less heated.
8 We understand that a witness has come with an additional fact.
9 It's something which helps the witness confirm a date, as I understand it.
10 That being so, with leave of the Chamber you may lead the evidence. If
11 that produces a problem for the Defence, that can be raised and we will
12 consider that problem and how to deal with it. Not now, but when it
13 happens you can then assess whether or not it produces a problem for you.
14 If the Chamber didn't take that position, where there is a genuine case of
15 something new coming when a witness arrives, from the Chamber's experience
16 it would be in the long run of the trial more likely to harm the Defence
17 than the Prosecution. Because we have experienced far more Defence
18 witnesses arriving with additional information than the other way. And of
19 course it depends on how critical the fresh information is. If it's
20 fundamental, a very different issue arises. But if it's merely helping a
21 witness confirm a date when some incidental issue occurred, we think it
22 better to understand the humanity of the situation and ensure that the
23 evidence is able to be led whether it be from Prosecution or Defence.
24 Yes, Mr. Moore.
25 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.
1 WITNESS: JAN SCHOU
2 Examination by Mr. Moore:
3 Q. What is your full name?
4 A. My full name is Jan Allan Schou.
5 Q. And I think it's right to say you are actually -- you were born in
6 1955, you have that benefit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. The 10th of April, I think, is your date of birth; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You are of Danish nationality?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. May I deal with your personal circumstances and then move on to
13 your professional.
14 Is it right that you are a married man and you have
15 three children?
16 A. I am not married any longer but I have three children, yes.
17 Q. That you are a Danish citizen, that you attended, as you describe
18 it, grammar school, and you then attended the military academy, and that
19 started in 1974?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Please pause between question and answer for the
22 sake of interpreters and the transcript. Thank you.
23 MR. MOORE:
24 Q. I think it's right it say that as a result of that you were able
25 to study at the academy to become an army officer; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After two years you then decided to leave the army. You had been
3 a full-time soldier and you started, I think, at the university of
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And it was there that you studied medicine?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, may I just deal in general terms, please, with your medical
9 practice. I think it's right to say that as of today you have practiced
10 as a surgeon and a gynaecologist; is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And that is in Jutland --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- in Denmark itself?
15 In relation to your military service, is it right that by 1991 you
16 were a reservist?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I think in 1991 you were actually requested by the Danish
19 army, because of the qualifications that you had, both militarily and
20 medically, you were requested to go to Yugoslavia, as it was then called,
21 to attend as an ECMM monitor?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. At that time is it right you were holding the rank of captain, and
24 on the mission that you were sent you recollect that there were 14
25 personnel involved?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Dealing with it in, I hope, relatively briefly, you left Denmark
3 on the 15th of October, 1991, and you eventually ended up in Zagreb in
4 Croatia which was, as far as I can understand, the location that you were
5 at was the ECMM headquarters?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I would like to commence, if I may,
8 please, with the 18th of October. I think it's right to say then that you
9 left Zagreb for Vukovar. Is that right?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, why was it that on the 18th of October you went to Vukovar?
12 A. It was because we have to follow the Medecins sans Frontieres to
13 evacuate the -- some patient from the hospital. And we had to monitoring
14 it as an ECMM member.
15 Q. And what exactly was your function within the mission?
16 A. My function was to -- as a special to monitoring the hospital.
17 How it works, how the -- the patient were behaving, and what -- what they
18 need, equipment, medical stuff and something like that.
19 Q. Now, with regard to the mission that went to Vukovar, how many
20 people actually went to Vukovar itself; could you remember?
21 A. No, I'm not sure. I think we were four or five ECMM cars with
22 three person in each.
23 Q. What I want to do is I'd like you, and I hope you've got this
24 bundle, to turn to what we call tab 38. It's the supplementary bundle.
25 The ERN number in English is 0036-6961 through to 71 and 0305-5390 through
1 to 96. Now, have you got that tab, as we call it?
2 A. I have got it. I hope so.
3 Q. So do I. It should say "Vukovar relief mission." And it should
4 be a handwritten document, I think not in your -- in your writing.
5 A. No, it's not my writing.
6 Q. But top left-hand corner should be 18th of October, depart Zagreb
7 at 1400?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. Let's just deal, if we may, with one or two matters, but we will
10 refer to this document in due course. I think it's right that you stopped
11 at a place called Djakovo; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. I think that you slept there, and about 5.00 in the morning, as
14 far as you can recollect, you left that place and drove through Nustar,
15 then to Zidine, Marinci, and as far as I can understand, you arrived at
16 Marinci at about 7.00 in the morning. Now, can we just look at the
17 document that we have, document 38?
18 MR. MOORE: Yes, I see there is an objection.
19 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at the beginning of the
20 testimony I wanted to introduce an objection in principle. With the
21 previous witness the policy was to go through the documents and it is a
22 way of leading. But specifically in this case when Mr. Moore began his
23 examination-in-chief, he read out to the witness that they spent the night
24 in Djakovo. That's not in the document, but the witness confirmed
25 nevertheless. Therefore, I wish that either stick with the documents, or
1 perhaps ask the witness to provide his answer and not to lead in such a
3 MR. MOORE: Well, forgive me. The document says: "Arrive on the
4 18th of October at Djakovo at 2100." Then it shows the 19th of October
5 "Depart Djakovo." And forgive me for being a little simple, I would have
6 thought that in actual fact that would indicate that between the 18th
7 and 19th, that they were located at that position and therefore stayed the
9 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on as you are, Mr. Moore.
10 MR. MOORE:
11 Q. Let's just move on, please.
12 Can we deal then, please, from your memory, if it's possible, when
13 you got to Marinci, I think it's right to say that the document suggests
14 that it was ahead of schedule.
15 Now, can I just deal with this document itself so everybody
16 understands how this document -- where it comes from? Do you know who
17 compiled this document?
18 A. It come from the -- the head of the -- you can say the chief of
19 the relief mission.
20 Q. And if we look at the document itself, bottom right-hand corner,
21 961962, 63, and continuing, there is a signature. Whose signature is
22 that? Bottom right-hand corner of the document.
23 A. You are saying about my signature in the -- in the bottom?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes. It's when I -- when I give this -- this document to the --
1 to the Court.
2 Q. Thank you very much. We just have to establish the source of the
3 document, and we now have that.
4 Can we deal, then, please, with the route itself? And I want to
5 deal with the entry where it says -- and you can see it on the document,
6 the first page, that you remain on the road outside of Marinci until 7.55
7 when a JNA colonel arrived. Have you got that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, what happened there, please? Just very briefly.
10 A. We -- we were stopped outside the city, I don't know for how long
11 time, and then we went into Marinci. And our cars were controlled, there
12 were no weapons in the cars. And then after a while we were sent forward
13 to next city.
14 Q. Now, can I ask you, please, to look at a document that is at the
15 very end, or a page that's the very end of this document? Its number
16 is 6971.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, can you just tell us -- I don't know if it's possible for it
19 to be shown in a way that is not upside down. Can that be done? There we
20 are now.
21 Now, dealing with the document, who drew this document; can you
22 tell us?
23 A. It -- the document is made by the chief of this relief mission,
24 which was a French ECMM member.
25 Q. When we look at it, is it right to say that it obviously the head
1 is relief operation to Vukovar, 18th to the 20th of October.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, what exactly does it show us in general terms, please?
4 A. In general terms, it show us that we have to pass the no-man's
5 land, I think, four times before we reached Vukovar.
6 Q. And so when we look at it, we can see Vinkovci; then on the
7 left-hand side Nustar; Zidine?
8 A. Zidine, yeah.
9 Q. Now we've got dotted lines and it seems to be -- under the
10 subheading of JNA and Marinci, and we've got the time 7.10; do you see
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Now what exactly does this signify, the
14 dotted lines, which seem to be either side of Marinci?
15 A. It's -- it's what I remember is that there were a check-point we
16 had to pass to get into Marinci.
17 Q. Thank you. And the dotted line coming out of Marinci?
18 A. It's when we leave Marinci, then we go out, go out to a
19 check-point again.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. And it's -- it's what you call the front line of the army.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Now when we deal, if you just keep your
23 thumb on that particular page and we move on, I think it's right to say
24 that the document, if we look at the first page of document, 6961, the one
25 I have referred you to, so try and keep your finger with the diagram,
1 and 6961 is the English version, we've got: "Convoy proceed to eastern
2 point to Marinci and stopped." Have you got that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. And then we've got: "Lead EC vehicle,
5 proceeds to Croat lines."
6 A. Yes, I have it.
7 Q. And is it right that when we look at the map we can see that is
8 represented on the diagram itself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So we've got the arrowed line going through to Bogdanovci to check
11 the route and establish a contact.
12 Can we turn over the page, please? I want to try and deal with
13 this relatively briefly. We've got an entry, and I think it's right that
14 the vehicle returns, it -- to use your phrase, it picks up the convoy,
15 mines on approach. Can you deal with those, please, what had happened
16 with the mines on approach.
17 A. It means that on the road there were mines and the Croatian forces
18 put them away.
19 Q. Thank you. If we just move on. There is the arrival at that
20 particular location. The remainder there for 30 minutes. Now, what is it
21 the -- the phrase "while local commander"? It seems to say "Croatian
22 commander"; is that right or not?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Can you tell us, please, what it says then and explain?
25 A. It says that in the city of Bogdanovci, the local commander of the
1 Croatian force in that small village, which were almost surrounded by JNA,
2 he was telling us that we couldn't go through this -- the normal way,
3 which were in the agreement, because the road was mined. And they know a
4 way to the hospital we could, travelling with an escort, with an -- with
5 some of the Croats, so we can pass JNA.
6 Q. So can I see if I've got this correct? The agreed route, you had
7 been told by the Croat commander that you could not go that route because
8 there were mines, but he knew another route that was not mined?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. Thank you very much. And so eventually team V, was that the team,
11 as you called yourself? You see the next entry.
12 A. Yes. I don't know.
13 Q. All right. "In Nustar inspects area and finds no mortars or
14 artillery positions."
15 Are you able to help us with regard to that entry or not?
16 About "no mortars and no artillery positions."
17 A. I saw nothing at that point.
18 Q. Can I just deal with -- with your brief? You clearly have a
19 medical brief, but you had military training and you were contacted by the
20 Danish military specifically because of your double expertise. Did you
21 receive any briefing by the military prior to going on either mission or
22 on this particular mission on the 18th, 19th of October?
23 A. On the 18th of the -- particularly the 18th of October we get -- I
24 get nothing.
25 Q. Yes?
1 A. But when I left Denmark, I have a short meeting with -- with the
2 Danish military that show us -- that said to us, to all the Danish
3 monitors, that we have to go through Yugoslavia and that we of course had
4 to watch the equipment they have.
5 Q. And when you say about equipment, I am presuming one is not
6 talking about bulldozers. Are we talking about military equipment?
7 A. Yes, we're talking about military equipment.
8 Q. And why was it that it was of interest for military equipment to
9 be looked at in 1991?
10 A. It was because in the Danish army at that time we only had
11 pictures of these vehicles they have, so it was first time we see it real.
12 And we have been trained in the military to -- to all this kind of
13 vehicle, knew the number of the vehicles, which kind, and which brigade
14 they belong to and all this.
15 Q. And with regard to your own military training, was there any
16 specific department that you operated in, in the Danish army itself?
17 A. Yes, I have been in the intelligence service.
18 Q. The intelligence service?
19 A. Service, yes. The intelligence -- it's what you call it, the
20 local intelligence. It's on the ground in the brigade.
21 Q. So it's intelligence unit within an army context?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what exactly did the intelligence element of the Danish army
24 concentrate on or focus on, in general terms, please?
25 A. Not specific, just the kind of thing, the equipment we saw.
1 Q. So --
2 A. We -- we were -- we were not asked to, but some of us took
3 pictures of these cars so we can have them for our own -- you can call it
4 education at home.
5 Q. Yes. So when you were travelling through various areas, whether
6 they're JNA or whether they are -- I will call Croatian --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- is it right you had a level of expertise and also an interest
9 in trying to ascertain the -- the weaponry that existed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Let's move on then, if we may, please. You have said that you
12 didn't see any mortars or artillery positions. Can we deal if there was
13 any cease-fire that had been imposed for this -- for this mission? If we
14 look at the fourth entry.
15 A. I did not understand that.
16 Q. Yes, if you go to page 6962, the one we have been on.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you look for the fourth entry down, fourth paragraph.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you like to just read that particular entry, please?
21 A. "Local" --
22 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
23 THE WITNESS: Local -- that --
24 JUDGE PARKER: Would you pause a moment, please.
25 Mr. Vasic.
1 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
2 I am truly sorry interrupting my learned friend. I would like to
3 me one thing though. Is the witness being asked to say what he remembers
4 about his mission, or is he being asked to comment on a report produced by
5 somebody else? I think the right thing to do would be to ask the witness
6 first to give us his own recollections. And after that to possibly
7 comment on reports written by somebody else.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE PARKER: As I understand it, Mr. Vasic, it's neither of the
10 alternatives you're contemplating. It's the witness giving evidence of
11 his recollection reminded by these notes that were made at the time.
12 Is that right, Mr. Moore?
13 MR. MOORE: That is correct. It's a memory-refreshing document.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. A couple of preliminary questions might have
15 been helpful.
16 MR. MOORE: Certainly.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Just to know. It's emerged slowly, but basically
18 that these are notes prepared at the time not by him, but by his team
19 leader, that he was familiar with them and they, as he understood, were
20 correct at the time would have overcome the difficulty.
21 MR. MOORE: I apologise for that. I should have done it. If you
22 would like me to do, I'm quite happy to do it now.
23 Q. Dr. Schou, this document you have seen before?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Because you have signed it. And clearly it relates to the mission
1 that you were involved in to Vukovar and Vukovar and return?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. With regard to the document, you have read it?
4 A. Yes, I have.
5 Q. Yes. And would it be right to say that, having read it, that you
6 agree with the contents of the document as being accurate?
7 A. I agree with the contents, yes.
8 Q. Thank you very much. And would you wish to refer to this document
9 to assist your memory or recollection? As what we will call an
11 A. Yes, it's an -- that's the way I can -- because it's so long time
12 ago, so I have to -- to be -- to have my papers to see -- to see in front
13 of me what's happened at that moment.
14 Q. All right. I hope that satisfied my learned friends.
15 Can we just deal then, please, with this paragraph starting with:
16 "The local commander informs team V that cease-fire was to be imposed
17 from" -- what time was it, please?
18 A. It was from the morning, at 0500.
19 Q. Yes. On what date? The 19th of October, I think?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Can we move on, please.
22 A. Until the 21 on 19th of October.
23 Q. Was it 21 or is it midnight?
24 A. It was midnight.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, can you explain, please, the next entry? Can you
1 read it out and then explain it?
2 A. Yes, I can read it. "This is not in accordance with
3 Zagreb-initiated cease-fire agreement which was to be in effect between
4 700 [sic] hours on Friday, October the 18th and" -- something about the
5 2400 hours, October the 20th, I think.
6 Q. Well, let's just see if maybe my copy is slightly better than
7 yours. Is it between 1700 hours, as opposed to 700 hours? 1-7?
8 A. It 's 1-7-0-0.
9 Q. Yes, on Friday, October the 18th. And 2400 hours, i.e., midnight,
10 on October the 20th?
11 A. The 20th, yes.
12 Q. Thank you very much. And when you were in this convoy, did you
13 hear various sounds?
14 A. I didn't hear anything. I think -- no, I'm not sure. The team V,
15 I'm not sure that it is in the convoy. It could be a connection with a
16 team that's in Croatia or something like that. I don't know.
17 Q. All right. Well, let's deal with your recollection, then, if we
18 may. So there you are, you are in the convoy. What happens then next,
20 A. Then next we were -- we were escorted -- not escorted but there
21 was a civilian car with four Croats in front of the -- in front of our
22 vehicle, and we travelling through a cornfield.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. And reach Vukovar --
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 A. -- from -- from east, I think.
2 Q. Can we just --
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a technical issue.
5 The interpreter trying to do the B/C/S interpretation is really on the
6 edge. The interpretation is getting more and more precarious, I think on
7 account of the pace of the proceedings. If everyone could please just
8 slow down, so that the B/C/S interpretation may again become possible.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Vasic. It's a useful reminder.
10 Thank you.
11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
12 Q. So let's deal, please, with the arrival at Vukovar itself using
13 your memory. Now, when you got to Vukovar, did you go to the hospital?
14 A. We go strictly to the hospital.
15 Q. Thank you. And can you remember approximately when it was you
16 went to the hospital? Approximately what time of day?
17 A. 10.00, 11.00 in the morning.
18 Q. Thank you. And can you remember how many other ECM monitors there
19 were with you at that time?
20 A. I think eight. Eight or nine.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, can you describe to the Court, please, the
22 actual -- if there was any damage to the hospital itself?
23 A. There were -- there were a lot of damage to the hospital. It was
24 only the basement that were able to take patient and where they have to
25 work. From the -- the -- all the other part of the building, they were
1 totally destroyed. I was taken around with a medical doctor from the
2 hospital, and we could only go through I think it was the second floor
3 because of damage to stairs. And there were no people except in the
5 Q. Are you able to tell us whether the hospital itself was marked in
6 any way to demonstrate that it was a hospital?
7 A. Yes. The hospital were marked with a red cross on the -- on
8 the -- on the roof, and a red cross on the field.
9 Q. And when you say "a red cross on the field," in my language would
10 you mean on the grass?
11 A. On the grass, yes.
12 Q. And how -- was that grass with -- inside the hospital perimeter or
14 A. It was in the middle of the hospital. I think the hospital was
15 three buildings.
16 Q. Thank you. And how large were these red cross signs?
17 A. On the roof I think it was 10 point -- 10 metre on one side and
18 10 metre on the other side.
19 Q. And on the ground?
20 A. The same.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, you had an opportunity, presumably, of being able
22 to assess the professional or the circumstances in which the medical staff
23 were operating?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell us, please, the level of medical supplies that
1 existed at that time within the hospital?
2 A. They only have few medical stuff to work with. They have to clean
3 again and again. They use the bandage more than one time and then they
4 wash it and take it again and use it again. They have only a small table
5 with medicine, I think 10 or 12 different kind.
6 Q. Thank you. And in relation to the -- the medical staff
7 themselves, were you able to assess the level of their capabilities or
9 A. I did not see them work, but I saw the patient and they were
10 treated well.
11 Q. Did you look through the hospital comprehensively or not?
12 A. Can you explain that?
13 Q. Yes. Comprehensively means - my fault - did you look through the
14 hospital thoroughly?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Or did you just go to one part?
17 A. No. The whole -- the whole hospital -- we went through the whole
18 hospital, yes. And I was escorted -- not escorted but I was shown around
19 from this female doctor.
20 Q. Can I just deal with whether you saw what I will call military
21 personnel. Did you see military personnel inside the hospital itself with
23 A. No. I saw military personnel outside the hospital. You can --
24 yes, on the ground, but inside the hospital area.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. But not in the house [sic].
2 Q. And -- inside the hospital?
3 A. Inside the hospital.
4 Q. Yes. And I think it's right to say that you did hear mortar fire;
5 is that correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, with regard to the mortar fire, you didn't see mortars being
8 fired; is that equally right?
9 A. That's correct. I didn't see it, but I hear mortaring.
10 Q. Right. How far away would you have assessed the mortar fire was?
11 Sometimes difficult to assess.
12 A. 30, 40 metres, I think. Maybe 50.
13 Q. Thank you very much. May we deal then, please, with the -- the
14 brief itself. What was the purpose of the mission?
15 A. The purpose of the mission was -- were to bring not all the
16 patient but the most of the patient out of the hospital to -- back to a
17 hospital in Croatia.
18 Q. And with regard to that, how many patients did you actually
20 A. I think it was 109 or something like that.
21 Q. Now, can I deal with the age of the -- the injured persons? And I
22 deal principally with men or males, all right? Was there any guide-lines
23 for taking male patients away --
24 A. No.
25 Q. -- from Vukovar?
1 A. There were no guide-lines.
2 Q. Well, what about age?
3 A. There were no -- we have no guide-lines about which -- what kind
4 of wounded we had to take away. And it was up to Medecins sans Frontieres
5 and the Croats to decide who would be transportable, or who would leave.
6 Q. Was there any concern that if the convoy was to be going back
7 through obviously Croat lines but also JNA lines, that the -- the convoy
8 would be stopped and examined by the JNA?
9 A. We know that we had to cross the JNA lines, so we know that of
10 course the convoy will be checked again, yes.
11 Q. And was there any concern that men of fighting age might encounter
12 difficulties going through those lines?
13 A. I have not heard about it.
14 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
16 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I think that this might be a leading
17 question. I think it would be proper to ask the witness about these
18 concerns but not lead him on the nature of these concerns, especially
19 having in mind the witness's previous answer, that they had received no
20 instructions in relation to the patients' age or gender, and that in
21 actual fact the Croatian side and the Medecins sans Frontieres were in
22 charge of that aspect.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic, thank you for your concern. I think, in
24 the circumstances, given that we're dealing with the 19th of October,
25 given the general tenor of the evidence, that the form of question is not
2 Carry on, please, Mr. Moore.
3 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
4 Q. Can we deal then, please, with the -- the people that you removed
5 from the hospital itself? Can you approximate the number of people that
6 were taken out from the hospital?
7 A. Yes, 109, I think.
8 Q. And were they male, female, can you give us an idea of their
10 A. They were mostly females and they were mostly old men.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, can we deal then, please, with the removal from
12 the hospital itself?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the route. Now, if we go back to your diagram, if you
15 remember it. That's at, as I say, page 6971 at tab 38.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. We can see the diagram. Now, with regard to it, the diagram
18 itself, what then happened when you were leaving? Can you just, in
19 general terms, tell us what happened?
20 A. Yeah. When we leave the hospital, we were crossing a little
21 river, and then -- at that time we were on the normal road, and then we
22 crossed the river and went back the same way we went into the hospital.
23 Q. And was that across a field?
24 A. That was across a field, yes. But on a -- you call it -- on a
25 track or something.
1 Q. What I would call a farm track?
2 A. Yes, a farm track.
3 Q. All right. So with regard to that track itself, who was your
4 guide across that track?
5 A. Our guide were the Croat -- this civilian car with four Croatian
7 Q. Thank you. And when you were travelling out from Vukovar, was
8 there anything that occurred that stopped you going along that farm track?
9 A. Yes. In -- just in the beginning of the farm track there was a
10 wire crossing the road, and the wire was not there when we arrived.
11 Q. So by that are you saying that it was the same route that you had
12 travelled in?
13 A. It's the same route we have travelling in, yes.
14 Q. Now, let us deal with the wire. What do you mean by a wire? Wire
15 can mean many things in English.
16 A. Yes. What do you call it, an iron wire across the road.
17 Q. A metal wire?
18 A. A metal wire, yes.
19 Q. Yes. And do you know whether that metal wire was attached to
21 A. It was -- there were -- in fact there were two wires. The first
22 one the Croatian cut. I don't know nothing else because I was not exactly
24 Q. Yes. When you say "cut," normally if you cut a trip-wire with an
25 explosive at the end it has an unfortunate effect.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know if this was done in a special way or not?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. All right. Well, let us -- you carried on after you went through
5 that wire; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what then happened?
8 A. Then there was another wire. And it was also cut.
9 Q. On the same route?
10 A. On the same route.
11 Q. Yes. And when they were cut, were there any detonations?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. So what then happened when you went through the second
14 wire on the same route back?
15 A. After the second wire.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Then we were driving on this farm -- farmer road, you have said,
18 and suddenly there came in tank in front of us, a JNA tank and a APC, and
19 they pointed out that our car -- I was in the first -- in the first car in
20 the leading car --
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. -- at that time, and the civilian car in front with the Croatian,
23 they drive out and disappeared.
24 Q. I'm sorry, can you just explain that little more fully?
25 A. Yes, I can explain that we were -- we were driving.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. In front of us there was a civilian car with four Croat soldiers.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. And as soon as this tank arrive, they drive in the cornfield and
6 Q. So the Croat vehicle drove straight into the cornfield and
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Yes, thank you very much. Well, what about you? You're still on
10 the track?
11 A. We're still on the track, and we, all four in the car, jump out of
12 the car while it was running.
13 Q. Yes, that's the -- the Croats or you?
14 A. Not the Croats. In our car --
15 Q. Yes?
16 A. -- in the ECMM car, the driver and the three ECMM members in the
17 car, we jumped out of the car and you can say -- sorry. You can say that
18 we jump into the side of the road so we were not -- so that the tanks
19 couldn't firing at the car.
20 Q. I see. So you jumped out of the vehicle because you thought you
21 might be fired on?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Well -- and the car kept driving and crashed. Did you
24 see any JNA soldiers at that time?
25 A. No, we only saw the tank and the APC.
1 Q. Yes. And after that did you see anybody?
2 A. Yes. They -- they come down with the APC and the tanks and you
3 can say arrested us or take us up to a hill.
4 Q. Yes. And can you tell us whether in actual fact any of those JNA
5 soldiers were officers or not?
6 A. Yes, they were, especially one officer I saw, and it was Major
8 Q. And how do you know that the officer that you saw was what you
9 call Major Sljivancanin?
10 A. Because I have seen him there, and I saw him later in Yugoslavia.
11 Q. And were you able to assess, you had been in the military, but
12 were you able to assess his rank or not?
13 A. Yes. Normally I would say -- I would say that I can see which
14 kind of rank they have. And at that time I think he was -- he was a
16 Q. Now, what about the -- the uniform he was wearing? Can you tell
17 us --
18 A. Yes. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, quite new one. You
19 see, normally when you see soldiers in the field you see they have dirty
20 uniforms. Not dirty but of course there would be some dirt on it, but he
21 had quite new uniform on.
22 Q. And did you have any dealings with the gentleman you considered to
23 be Mr. Sljivancanin? Did you speak to him or he speak to you?
24 A. No, I -- not at that moment.
25 Q. All right. Well, what about himself? Was he with anyone, apart
1 from JNA soldiers?
2 A. He was together with some other JNA soldiers, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, can I just deal then, please, with what happened
4 with Major Sljivancanin. Did he speak to you or to your group?
5 A. No. No, I'm not saying that he speak to our group, he speak more
6 or less to the press. He had arranged a press conference at the top of
7 the hill.
8 Q. Well, that's what I wanted to ask you about. I've asked you about
9 other people. Where did these press people come from?
10 A. We were told that they came from the Belgrade TV and I know there
11 was an international TV too. I did not know the name.
12 Q. Yes. So can we just go back then, please, to what we were talking
13 about? There you are, you've got a tank in front of you, you jump out,
14 and you then are met by, as you consider, Mr. Sljivancanin and some JNA
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And TV, or the press --
18 A. The press, yes.
19 Q. -- Is the phrase. "Press" can mean newspapers and press can mean
21 A. It was television.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, where were they located, how far away were they
23 when you saw them? Approximately.
24 A. Approximately 30 metres or something like that.
25 Q. And did you hear Major Sljivancanin speak to the television crews?
1 A. No. I -- I only saw that he was speaking. I was not allowed
2 to -- I was not at that point that I could hear it. I was together with
3 the other ECMM members, and -- and the -- the wounded.
4 Q. Now, do you know what language he was speaking in?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you subsequently find out what was being suggested?
7 A. Yes. The -- the leader of our -- of the team, the ECMM members,
8 leader of the -- he was at that conference or what you call it, with -- at
9 the top of the hill.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. And -- and it was about that we were not following the agreement
12 of the road to Vukovar, that we have to -- that we should have come to
13 Vukovar through this road, through the normal road that passed the hill
14 120 -- 102.
15 Q. Now, why was it you had not taken the route that had been agreed?
16 A. We were -- it was because the route -- we were told by the
17 Croatian that the route was mined.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, can we deal then, please, with the suggestion
19 that you have taken the wrong route. Was there any discussion then about
20 what route you should now take after having been stopped by the tank?
21 A. Yes, we were told to take the -- the -- the agreed route back to
23 Q. And so can we deal then, please, in very general terms, what route
24 you took, or why you took a particular route?
25 A. We were told by Major Sljivancanin, or colonel, I think, at that
1 moment, that -- that we should take the route back to Bogdanovci with --
2 which was in the agreement.
3 Q. And were you shown the route?
4 A. Yes. We were shown this way and you have to take this way.
5 Q. And who told you to take that route?
6 A. Major -- Major Sljivancanin.
7 Q. Thank you very much. So when you took the route was that the
8 whole ECMM convoy?
9 A. Yes, it was the whole convoy.
10 Q. So can you tell us then, please, what happened when you went down
11 the route that you had been directed to go by Major Sljivancanin?
12 A. Yes. Of course we -- we had -- were told from the Croatian that
13 there were mines, so of course we were looking for mines when we were
14 driving out of route. I was in the front car together with the leader of
15 the -- of the mission. And we have travelling I think one kilometre or
16 two, then the truck which was number four in the convoy hit a mine.
17 Q. And that was on the route that you had been told to go on; is that
19 A. That was on the route we were told to go.
20 Q. Now, can I deal, please, with hitting a mine. Was anyone injured?
21 A. Yes. The -- there were two nurses from the Medecins sans
22 Frontieres which were throwing out the car and were laying on the ground.
23 And at that moment I went back and tried to treat them, so what happened
24 else, I was -- I was -- tried to treat them.
25 Q. Can I ask you this: Why did you go down a route, the route that
1 was directed by Major Sljivancanin, if you had been told there were mines
2 on it?
3 A. Because it was the only way we could get out. We have no -- we
4 have no other way to go. And we have -- of course we have 109 wounded
6 Q. Yes. Can I deal with the -- the convoy itself then. How did you
7 manage to get out of that particular situation? What route did you take?
8 Well, here you are, you're going on a route, a mine goes off.
9 A. Yes, then we --
10 Q. Did you keep going on that route?
11 A. No. Then we pull back all the cars and left the cars that were
12 blowing up.
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. We of course transferred the wounded from the truck to another
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. And then we went back to the hill where we claimed that the route
18 was mined that we had only wounded, that we had no weapon at all.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. And then the JNA took us through the fields, and it was through
21 the fields, to another road.
22 Q. So when you went through the fields, was that the same route that
23 you had taken with the Croats?
24 A. No. No. We went more or less through the -- through the city --
25 I think it's Petrovci.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. It's in the other direction. And you can say it's through the
3 front line of the JNA. There were -- there were normally front line with
4 tanks --
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. -- moving on the ground and APC and normal civilian soldiers.
7 Q. Yes. But the question that I really have is this: Here you are,
8 you have been told to go down a route by the JNA. Clearly there is an
9 explosion from a mine. You go back, you tell the JNA that you've hit
10 mines and really you've only injured people on board. Who did you tell
11 that you had hit a mine? Was Sljivancanin still there or not?
12 A. I don't know. I was working with the wounded.
13 Q. I see. Now, the route that you took out, the safe route --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- how close was that to the location that you had been where in
16 actual fact you had hit the mine?
17 A. I'm not understand the question.
18 Q. Yes. You have a road that's mined.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You've been told to go down that route.
21 A. Mm-hm.
22 Q. And you were told to go down another route by the JNA, so it
23 suggests that the JNA have two routes.
24 A. Yes, but the last route we were suggested to take, it was about
25 90 degrees to the road, through the fields with normal civilian trucks.
1 So in that field, we get stuck because we couldn't drive there. So we
2 have the APC from the JNA army took us up to -- up through the normal
4 Q. All right. Now, the convoy itself, was it ever searched?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And who searched it?
7 A. The -- the Serbian force.
8 Q. And when was it searched, in general terms. I don't need --
9 A. It was searched on the hill first when we meet the tanks.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And were all the vehicles searched as far as you could see?
13 A. Yes, all vehicle were searched.
14 Q. And what were the JNA looking for? Did they tell you?
15 A. Don't know. No. They didn't tell me. I think -- I'm not sure,
16 but of course they would look for weapon -- weapon.
17 Q. And I think then it's right to say that you eventually managed to
18 extricate, to get out from that particular area, and where did you
19 eventually go with the convoy?
20 A. With the convoy we went to the -- you can say the main road, the
21 highway between Zagreb and Belgrade. And that way we went up to Vinkovci.
22 Q. Thank you very much. And then is it right that you were able to
23 deliver the patients in Vinkovci. Is that right or not?
24 A. Yes, I think it was in Vinkovci.
25 Q. And then the ECMM monitors then returned to Zagreb?
1 A. To Zagreb, yes.
2 Q. Now, I want to deal with -- I may play a video in relation to
3 that, but much, much later.
4 But can I deal, please, with your period of service. Here you
5 are, the 19th of October. I think it's right to say that you have had the
6 benefit of going through the documents from a bundle with a number of tabs
7 on it.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think it's equally right to say that as far as you can
10 ascertain, the first dealings that you have in relation to this case as
11 far as you can see, is approximately the 19th of November. Is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Now, I want to deal with the 19th of November, if I may, please.
14 MR. MOORE: Would Your Honour forgive me one moment.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. MOORE:
17 Q. I just want to go to a bundle of photographs. They're at
18 divider 41. And if I may deal with it just before my file falls apart.
19 They are 65 ter, number 66. Now, have you got them there at tab 41? Are
20 we able to produce the photographs? We have given the index to the
21 registry. I will repeat it again, 0036-6973 to 00 -- 7002.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, we'll have a break now. And in the
23 break, between your case manager and the court officer, we might be able
24 to find what it is that you're wanting.
25 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, it's the number that's on the 65 ter
1 list. I've got it in front of me.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, but it produces what is now on the screen.
3 MR. MOORE: Well, we'll see what we can do.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Which, I gather, isn't what you want.
5 MR. MOORE: No, it is not.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
7 We will have the first morning break now and resume at 10 minutes
8 to 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore.
12 MR. MOORE: I'm glad to say that on this occasion we were able to
13 help the registry, rather than they help us.
14 Q. Could I just deal, please, then, with -- it is, as we have it,
15 tab 41. And there are two photographs. The first -- now, this particular
16 photograph, do you recognise anyone in it?
17 A. Yes. I recognise Major Sljivancanin, and I recognise the leader
18 of the Vukovar relief convoy.
19 Q. And do you know what date this was?
20 A. No. It was before I arrived Yugoslavia.
21 Q. And do you know where this photograph --
22 MR. MOORE: Does Your Honour have a -- the video shown? The
23 photograph shown? I saw Your Honour was -- all right.
24 Q. And do you know when this photograph was actually taken?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can I then move on, please, to the photograph, the number
2 is 0036-6977? Now, have you got that photograph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. And do you know what this photograph is
6 A. Yes, it's about the truck that hit the mine.
7 Q. And is that the first vehicle that -- that struck the mine?
8 A. It's the -- it's number four vehicle.
9 Q. Yes. But the first vehicle that struck -- that hit a mine.
10 A. I think the first truck, yes.
11 Q. All right. Thank you very much.
12 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I put in both these photographs in
13 respect -- as an exhibit, please? Perhaps they can go in as one -- one
14 exhibit rather than two.
15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received together as one exhibit.
16 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that will be Exhibit 338.
18 MR. MOORE:
19 Q. Now, can I deal, as I say, with November the 19th? Because on
20 that occasion you were involved, were you not, with a convoy to go to
22 A. On the 19th November?
23 Q. 19th of November?
24 A. Yes, that's the next Vukovar convoy. This is the first one.
25 Q. Yes, it is, but I want to move on in time. So can we deal then,
1 please, with the formation of that particular convoy, and I want to deal,
2 if I may, please, with the 18th of November. And I'd like you to look at
3 what we will call tab 23. And that is 00381412, 1413.
4 Now, have you got that document in front of you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It should have a handwritten document.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Saying "Visit of Vukovar."
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we just deal with that, please? The date is the 18th of
11 November. If we look at the composition of the team, we have got Brodin,
12 Kypr, van der Gaag, and Jan Schou, clearly yourself?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's team 1. And then team 2. Now, can you tell us, please,
15 about the schedule that was to be undertaken?
16 A. Yes. At the 18th November in the morning we had a meeting in
17 1st Military District in Belgrade to get access to go to Vukovar area.
18 And we went to a -- to a small city outside Sid where we were stopped, I
19 think, by the -- we were stopped by the JNA. I think it was a check-point
20 or something like that. And we were delayed there about two or three
21 hours, and we had a liaison officer with us from the military district,
22 and he went to -- to Negoslavci to try to get the permission that we could
23 go through there.
24 Q. All right. Now, may I just deal with the handwritten document,
25 which you've got in front of you. The numbers are -- you'll see on the
1 bottom right, 1412, and then 1413. Now, with regard to this document,
2 it's -- I think it's not in your handwriting; is that right?
3 A. It's not in my handwriting, no.
4 Q. But is it right that you have seen this particular document?
5 A. I have seen it --
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. -- here, but I'm not sure I saw it when I were in Vukovar.
8 Q. No, I know you've seen it here, but you have had a chance to read
9 it. Is it correct that it is a document that agrees with your memory or
11 A. It agrees with my memory, yes.
12 Q. And would you wish to refer to this document to assist your memory
13 if it becomes necessary?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you very much. I'd like to just move on, then, to the
16 document that just comes after that. Number is 1415 which, actually, in
17 sequence is before 1414, and then there is a map, and the translation is
18 as, my learned friends know, and I think is on the -- on the screen.
19 Now, can we look at the typed document, please, which has an ERN
20 number which is back to front. 1415, it refers to the monitoring
21 activity, 19th of November. Have you got that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in relation to that document, is it right, I think you have
24 had a chance to read it.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Not all of it relates to this particular case, because it deals
2 with Split, Sarajevo and other places, but the first part, the summary,
3 does relate to Vukovar itself?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Let's deal then, please, if we may, and we'll move on to another
8 document in a few moments.
9 Dealing with the 18th of November, what exactly was the brief for
10 the ECMM mission?
11 A. The brief for the members, it was to -- to find out which way we
12 could evacuate or which way the wounded from the hospital could be
14 Q. And if we just deal, please, with the handwritten document, we've
15 got number 2, the time schedule.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Let's work on that. It seems that you departed from the
18 1st Military District at 0800 hours, 8.00 in the morning; is that right?
19 A. 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning. I cannot --
20 Q. Is that a nine?
21 A. Maybe.
22 Q. All right. You then arrived at Negoslavci at 12.15?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Why was there a delay at the check-point en route?
25 A. There was a delay due to the JNA check-point. They did not know
1 we were coming and they -- even if -- even we have this -- we have some
2 papers from the general in -- in Belgrade, we were not allowed to go
3 through the area.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. And that's why the liaison officer go further.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, dealing with the briefing in
7 Negoslavci, we've got a briefing at 12.30 and 1.45.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you remember anything about the briefing or not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Very well. After the briefing itself, I think you then went to
12 Vukovar, and that was between 1.50 and 2.30; do you see that?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. Could you tell the Court what exactly the visit to Vukovar
16 A. It -- we went to Vukovar where we saw the -- you can say the front
17 line, we saw from a hill over -- looking out over the city to see, and we
18 were told that there were fighting area in what the map show in the area
19 of 1 and area 2, and there were Croatian soldiers in that area. And --
20 and area 1 is where the hospital is located.
21 Q. And when you were taken to the hill, who took you to the hill?
22 A. Major Sljivancanin.
23 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. Now, that hill itself, it was an --
24 obviously an elevated position; is that correct?
25 A. It's an elevated position where there were so-called local
2 Q. And in relation to Major Sljivancanin, when was the first time
3 that you had met him that day?
4 A. I think it was at the briefing in Negoslavci.
5 Q. And was he present at the briefing?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And can you remember who it was who actually gave the briefing?
8 A. I -- it was -- it was a colonel of the first -- of the military
10 Q. Let us deal then with the visit itself. Why is it that Major
11 Sljivancanin was with you at that time?
12 A. It was because we -- we were, you can say, guarded by the military
13 police, and I think he is a kind of military policeman.
14 Q. You have told the Court that you saw Major Sljivancanin on the
15 19th of October?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. Here you are one month later at -- or Vukovar. Did you or did you
18 not recognise him as being the same officer that you had seen earlier on
19 the 18th?
20 A. We --
21 Q. -- of October?
22 A. We recognise him and we also ask him why he now were a major,
23 because we think -- we were thinking that the first time he was a colonel.
24 And he -- and he answer that he had always been a major.
25 Q. Did he deny that he was present on the 18th when the explosion had
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did he give any level of explanation of what had happened on
4 the 18th?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Here we are then at the elevated height. Did you actually go to
7 the hospital itself on the 18th?
8 A. No. We could not go to the hospital because of the fighting.
9 Q. So what did you then do?
10 A. Then we went to a refugee centre in Vukovar.
11 Q. Now, if we look at the time-schedule itself, can we just look
12 at f, please?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what have we got there?
15 A. We had a -- a briefing in -- in -- in the refugee centre where we
16 were told that the -- the refugees would be taken -- not taken away, but
17 they were going to another -- other parts of Yugoslavia. But when we
18 talk -- we talk with some of the refugees and they said they were not
19 allowed to go.
20 Q. What do you mean that they said they were told they were not
21 allowed to go? Who had said that they were not allowed to go?
22 A. I cannot say exactly who persons said that they were not allowed
23 to go, but they said that authority, the military said that they were not
24 allowed to go.
25 Q. And are you able to establish what ethnicity were saying that they
1 were not allowed to go?
2 A. It was because the JNA want them to stay in the city.
3 Q. Yes, but what we're trying to find out is wanting to stay. Are
4 they wanting to Croats to stay, Serbs to stay, Hungarians to stay?
5 A. It was Serbs.
6 Q. It was Serbs.
7 A. It was only Serbs in that refugee centre.
8 Q. And when you were told that they -- they had to stay, was any
9 explanation given to you by the JNA about that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Can I deal, please, with the next page. I want to deal with
12 entry (3). Now can you read that, please?
13 A. You mean the -- okay. "JNA state that every day one or two
14 coaches are bringing them to Sid. A list of those people were required
15 [sic] and will be provided by the next visit."
16 Q. Thank you very much. Now, if we just look at the top of the page
17 we have got a reference to the town hall. In actual fact, it really
18 should have been c and d, rather than 3 and 4 subbrackets. But anyway,
19 the town hospital and the town hall are situated in zone 1. What was
20 zone 1?
21 A. Zone 1 was the -- I think it was the northern part of -- of the
23 Q. So if we look at page 1415 of the same bundle, we've got a map,
24 have we not? Have you got that?
25 A. I have a map, yes.
1 Q. Thank you. If you could just acknowledge, so that we have it on
2 the record. We have seem to have two zones. One is marked 1.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the other one is marked 2.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So in relation to zone 1, is that the reference that -- that you
7 make to the -- to the zone as indicated on the -- on the map?
8 A. Yes. Zone 1 is the area where the hospital is placed, and this
9 area where still are Croatian forces.
10 Q. Now, I would like to turn to tab 39 for a moment but keep that
11 page open. Now, tab 39, the registry have got all the details in relation
12 to it, but I will call it out. It is 04247566 through to 7567, and the
13 B/C/S is 04247566 through to 67 also. Have you got that in front of you?
14 A. Yes, I have.
15 Q. That's a medical report from Vukovar. If we look at the second
16 page, the 567 page, we see Jan Schou; is that right?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. So who compiled this document?
19 A. I -- I compiled it in Belgrade on the evening on the 18th,
20 together with an -- some staff from the ECMM, and send it to -- to Zagreb.
21 Q. Thank you. Well, we'll -- we have seen the reference to the other
22 document, the town hospital, town hall are situated in zone 1. Could you
23 please just refer to the second page of your personal report, 3, which is
25 A. My comments is that "JNA do not know the exact position of the
1 hospital. They were firing -- they fired at town hall, which is the
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. It was from the hill where we were -- what is that?
5 MR. MOORE: I seem to have some form of interference coming in
6 being from outside. It is still continuing.
7 THE WITNESS: Now it's gone.
8 MR. MOORE: All right.
9 Q. Thank you very much. So going back to the original document, and
10 I will come on to your medical report in a moment. We've got the town
11 hospital and the town hall are situated in zone 1. 4, they stated that a
12 meeting was going on between the JNA and Croatian forces at the bus
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You've got that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What was that meeting about? Are you able to tell us?
18 A. I -- we were only told that it was about the -- the surrender of
19 the Croatian force, because they were only -- we were told that they were
20 only 200 Croatians -- forces back in zone 1 and about 60 in zone 2.
21 Q. Now, let's go to C: "We visited the town."
22 Could you tell us please about this entry?
23 A. We visited the town, yes, we went to that point, that hill in the
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. And were looking out over the bus station to the region 1.
2 Q. And as I say, you have told us about the refugee location at
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can I deal with Velepromet when we're dealing with it? We
6 have an entry here that they had to stay. Can you remember if there was
7 any JNA officer who was present with you at that time or JNA
9 A. Yes, I remember that Major Sljivancanin was at that -- he was
10 together with us on the whole visit to Vukovar. And I also had take a
11 picture of him at that moment.
12 Q. And if there is any dispute about it, can I just ask for
13 clarification, please, it will be our tab 41, and the number is 0036-6979.
14 It's a 65 ter number 66. Can we produce that? No, it's 66979. Can we
15 move on? That's 73. There we are.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that's, I think, a photograph that you actually took of Major
18 Sljivancanin on the 18th at the Velepromet facility; is that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Thank you very much, indeed. Can we just see, when we look at the
21 photograph, I don't know if it comes on the computer, yes, it does, we're
22 looking down from -- from the road itself. What do we see down at the
24 A. We see the refugees at the bottom.
25 Q. Those are the refugees that you had spoken to; is that right?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. All right. Thank you very much. We'll just leave that. And
3 then --
4 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering that?
5 MR. MOORE: Yes, I am. I wonder perhaps if the wisest course
6 would be for all the photographs to go in as one exhibit, because they
7 tend to come from this witness and rather than deal with anything
8 specifically, it might just be easier if they go in as a bunch of
10 JUDGE PARKER: We have two in already.
11 MR. MOORE: Yes, and they're the same source. For my part, I
12 would be quite happy for them to go in as exhibits.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE PARKER: This will be added to the previous exhibit.
15 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. That's very kind.
16 Q. Now, may I deal then, please, with entry 4 of this handwritten
17 document? "We spoke to." Now, we have got three names. I want to deal b
18 and c, if I may. There we have Major Sljivancanin, Veselin. Where did
19 the information that he was the commander of the group south come from?
20 A. I don't know.
21 MR. LUKIC: Objection, Your Honour.
22 [Interpretation] I am sure you will remember, Your Honours, this
23 document was discussed with the previous witness. And I think that was
24 the way Mr. Moore asked the question, that he was on behalf of Operations
25 Group South, and I think that's what the document itself indicates. I
1 think that was the wording, that was the reason we didn't discuss the
2 document much because it was being defined as being on behalf of
3 Operations Group South, and that was how it was recorded in Mr. Kypr's
4 diary, if you remember.
5 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm grateful to my learned friend for giving
6 evidence. All I'm doing is asking this witness does he know where this
7 came from. That's all I did.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, Mr. Moore.
9 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
10 Q. Can I then ask you, please, to return to tab 39.
11 MR. MOORE: And Your Honour, might I make application to enter
12 tab 23 as an exhibit, please?
13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit 339, Your Honours.
16 MR. MOORE:
17 Q. Now can I just deal, please, with this particular document.
18 You've told us already that you compiled this document yourself; is that
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Now, can you please -- we'll deal with it systematically, if we
22 may, just work our way down.
23 So number 1, we see it's the 18th of November, medical report from
24 Vukovar. What does the first paragraph deal with, please? Perhaps if you
25 will read it out and then explain the first part.
1 A. Yes. It is what -- this medical report is what -- what we have to
2 stabilised before we can make an evacuation of the hospital.
3 Q. So when we have the entry: "JNA demand CNG to lay down weapons
4 before evacuation."
5 Who -- who -- well, you clearly wrote it. But whose idea was it?
6 Is it your suggestion or --
7 A. No, it's -- no, we were told that from her, I'm not sure which
8 person, but one of the officers from JNA, that -- that -- that CNG had to
9 lay down their weapons before we could start an evacuation.
10 Q. Thank you. And then there is: "No cease-fire for today." Is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'd like to deal with the -- the third entry, if I may,
14 starting "The chain of command." Would you be kind enough to read that
15 out, please, and then tell us what exactly it means?
16 A. It means -- "The chain of command in JNA from top to bottom must
17 know all details of evacuation (agreements)."
18 And that means that even that -- the day, when we -- the same day,
19 the 18th, when we tried to reach the area we were stopped by a check-point
20 outside Sid. And they did not know that we were arrived. Even if the
21 liaison officer said that that was an agreement and we have a paper from
22 the general, but the -- the check-point did not know it. So all the
23 people down in the JNA army did not know what's -- what's going on.
24 Q. So in relation to this entry, is it a proposal or --
25 A. It is a -- it is a statement that we had -- that before we could
1 evacuate the people, all the people on every layer had to know that we
2 were going to evacuate that people.
3 Q. And here it is in your document, but was there any arrangement for
4 the JNA soldiers at various levels to be informed of this requirement?
5 There is a difference between writing something down in a personal note
6 with an intention, and whether the intention manifests itself, whether it
7 comes into being. So can you tell us then, please, whether this occurred
8 or not?
9 A. I can only tell you that before we start an evacuation we would
10 try to make sure that every person knows that we are going to evacuate
11 the -- the hospital.
12 Q. This document was compiled where?
13 A. In Belgrade.
14 Q. By you on what date?
15 A. By me on the 18th of November in the evening.
16 Q. And when you compiled the document and your proposals, did you
17 communicate that, did you tell anybody about what you thought was
18 necessary, as a doctor, for the evacuation?
19 A. No. If you mean what -- what I have to use of equipment, no, I
20 have not seen the hospital. I did not know exactly how many people there
21 were in the hospital.
22 Q. No --
23 A. I only had these, you can say, base -- this things to be
24 established before -- before we get to the hospital so we could reach the
1 Q. Well, you are using the phrase "to things to be established." So
2 here you are as a doctor, you are there with a specific brief as a doctor,
3 and you are saying concerning the evacuation of the hospital, did you tell
4 anybody, Well, I think this is what needs to be done?
5 A. Yes, we told -- told Zagreb, our headquarters in Zagreb.
6 Q. Thank you. So who told Zagreb?
7 A. I told Zagreb with this, I sent this report, medical report back
8 to Zagreb, to the headquarters.
9 Q. And when did you do that, when you returned to Belgrade?
10 A. When I returned to Belgrade on the 18th.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can I just move on, about the -- the
12 brackets, if I keep it simple, "agreements." Do you see that your entry,
13 it's in your handwriting, "agreements." What did you mean by that?
14 A. I mean agreement from -- I mean that the -- the people involved,
15 the JNA and -- and the Croats, that they are agreed with -- that we are
16 coming and that we are evacuate the hospital.
17 Q. Let's just carry on. Number 4, we can see that there is the level
18 of destruction is referred to; I won't go into that.
19 5, there is a reference to from the south you must bypass all JNA
20 forces. What is meant by that, please?
21 A. That -- that meant that if we had to take the wounded out of the
22 hospital from south, then it must be through the city, through all the JNA
23 or the paramilitarian forces. So we have to travelling through the forces
24 with the wounded people.
25 Q. And what was the conclusions that you recommended?
1 A. My recommend was that we had to take the wounded out of the city
2 by north or by the river.
3 Q. Well, let's look at entry 2, please. "Refugees and wounded in
4 JNA-controlled area."
5 What was your finding there, please?
6 A. Wait a minute, where -- okay, there it is. Can you explain it
8 Q. Yes. Here we have -- we've got number 1 with some headings and
9 then number 2 we've got headings in your handwriting. And I want to deal
10 with number 2. I think you see it on the page you have?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. "Refugees and wounded in JNA-controlled area."
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then you have the various what I call sub-paragraphs.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you just read it out, and we'll deal with them one by one.
17 Would you mind?
18 A. Yes. Because of the -- it was made, you can say, as a conclusion
19 of the refugees centre. Where -- with no registration of the people, we
20 saw no medical supply. There were no made medical staff at all at that
21 refugee centre. And they cannot move as they want. It was what I told
22 you before, that they were -- the JNA said that they could go but they
23 said -- when we asked them, we are not allowed to go.
24 Q. Can I just deal with one little comment that you have made there?
25 You saw no medical supply, and there was no medical staff at all at the
1 refugee centre. Was there necessary for there to be medical supply or
2 medical staff present at the Velepromet facility within your professional
4 A. Yes, I think so.
5 Q. And why do you think so?
6 A. Because it was civilian from the city, and some of them were, you
7 can say, lightly wounded. They were not laying down, but they were
8 lightly wounded, and of course they have to be treated by doctors, or
9 medical staff.
10 Q. Let's carry on, please. The fourth entry: "They have not food
12 Do you see that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And who is "they" and where is that location?
15 A. It's the refugee centre.
16 Q. And then number 5, please?
17 A. Number 5, that they have no -- there is no -- no heating in that
18 building, they said. I was not in the building.
19 Q. I think the entry says: "They have no means for heating except
21 So what did you find personally, as far as you remember?
22 A. I only remember that of course -- they have a place where they
23 could cook, could make their food, this small food they have. But there
24 were no heating at all in that area.
25 Q. And how cold was it?
1 A. It was in November, so it was sometimes -- we were freezing and we
2 have dry clothes every day.
3 Q. Thank you. Let's turn over the page, if I may, please. Could you
4 read out this, all of it, please, this subentry?
5 A. "Some family members are taken away. (Prisoners" --
6 Q. I think it just says "prison," doesn't it question mark?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So: "Some family members are taken away, prison?"
9 What does that mean?
10 A. That mean that when we talk with some of the refugees, they said
11 that some of their family members were arrested or taken away.
12 Q. And taken away by whom?
13 A. By the JNA.
14 Q. Thank you. Was there any explanation ever given to you on
15 the 18th of why it was certain people were being taken away?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And then we've got "conclusion." I presume that this is the
18 International --
19 A. Red Cross.
20 Q. -- Committee for the Red Cross.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "Should take over immediately." Why did you make that particular
24 A. So they could -- because it's their -- it's normally their job to
25 register, to divide help for refugees.
1 Q. How important in your judgement was it that the ICRC should take
2 over the situation as you found it?
3 A. I found it important. That's why I have the conclusion. Because
4 we have no -- we are only monitors so we have no equipment at all to help.
5 So there must be an international health organisation, the ICRC or
6 Medecins sans Frontieres or something like that, to take over the
8 Q. All right. Thank you very much. We're nearly finished. We've
9 come to the comment box. I've already dealt with the JNA firing at the
10 town hall which actually was the hospital. Can we go to the second
11 subheading starting "no political speaking officers."
12 A. Yes. This especially is --
13 Q. Could you read it out into the? Thank you.
14 A. "No political speaking officers involving" --
15 Q. "Involved"?
16 A. "Involved. They are only talking politics matter and delay the
17 whole who process."
18 Q. Let me just see it. Perhaps my eyesight is a little better.
19 "No political speaking officers involved. They only talk
20 political matters and delay the whole process."
21 Now, can we deal, please, with delaying the whole process? What
22 did you mean by that entry?
23 A. I mean that the whole day, when we tried to do something, walk --
24 talk with some of the refugees or something, we were almost delayed the
25 whole time of Major Sljivancanin. And that's -- that's -- I could have
1 write his name. Instead of saying "political speaking officers," I mean
2 Major Sljivancanin.
3 Q. And how long did he stay with you that day? Try and give us an
4 impression, please?
5 A. He was with us the whole -- I think the whole day until we left
7 Q. And what do you mean by "delay"? How was that -- how did that
9 A. By I mean delay, it means that he -- every time we try to ask for
10 something or ask something for the refugees or something, he start with,
11 you can say, a political speech about Croatian and about the Ustasha and
12 about all this. So -- so every time he start, he start with kind of
13 political speech.
14 Q. But you say "and all this." Please understand we need to hear, as
15 best you can remember, what sort of things Major Sljivancanin was saying.
16 Just try and give us a tone or texture.
17 A. I think it's -- I think it's difficult. It's just that they --
18 that these people, that they are fighting against in the city, they are
19 Ustasha, and they are not normal soldiers, and they -- yes. What can I
20 say more? It's --
21 Q. All right. Let us then carry on, if I may. You've told us that
22 you were -- from the documents we can see it's 2.30.
23 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, sorry, may I make that document an
24 exhibit, if I have not done so?
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much, indeed.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 340.
3 MR. MOORE: Thank you.
4 Q. I will return to the original tab 23, just for completeness sake.
5 You have got the briefing in Velepromet, 1430 to 1445; talking to
6 refugees, 1445 to 1530; and then departure, Vukovar, 1530; and arrival at
7 the hotel, presumably in Zagreb. Is that right?
8 A. Yes, this is in Zagreb.
9 Q. Thank you very much, indeed.
10 A. No, that's not in Zagreb. That's in Belgrade.
11 Q. You're quite right, it's my fault. Thank you.
12 Can I deal then, please, with the 19th of November? The following
13 day. Now, that is a day that you clearly were involved in. Can you
14 remember approximately what time you left?
15 A. We left Belgrade in the morning. I'm not sure of the time. 8.00
16 or something like that.
17 Q. And can you tell us then where you went?
18 A. We went to Negoslavci.
19 Q. And what happened at Negoslavci?
20 A. At Negoslavci we have a meeting in the military headquarter.
21 Q. And what happened there?
22 A. We were told that they had -- that the JNA had taken over the
23 hospital or the whole area, and we were told that -- and -- I'm not sure
24 it was in the morning or later that day, we were told that some of the
25 staff, Dr. Bosanac and some of the staff and some of the people from the
1 hospital were taken away. And the JNA told us.
2 Q. And did they give any explanation why it was --
3 A. It was because they were criminal.
4 Q. Can you remember if there was any reference about other people
5 being taken away?
6 A. No, not -- no, not at that time.
7 Q. So in relation to the briefing, did you actually go to the
8 hospital itself or not?
9 A. On the 19th, no.
10 Q. Did you have any contact with the hospital?
11 A. We have it -- a contact with Dr. Bosanac, with mobile phone.
12 Q. Well, let's just deal with that, please. You say that you spoke
13 to Bosanac?
14 A. I did not myself. It was -- I think it was Mr. Kypr that spoke.
15 Q. All right. When you spoke to Dr. Bosanac, can you remember in
16 general terms what was said or not?
17 A. Yes, I can remember. She said that terrible things were going on,
18 and we -- we had to -- we had to come to the hospital immediately, and
19 then the connection was broken.
20 Q. And was there anything that was -- was said about speaking to
22 A. Only that terrible things happened in the hospital. That's what
23 I -- what I heard, not what I heard, what Mr. Kypr that she said.
24 Q. Were you able, or did you tell anybody from the JNA that you had
25 made a phone call to Dr. Bosanac?
1 A. Yes. We -- I'm not sure which person we said it to, but we said
2 that we have contact with the -- with Dr. Bosanac and that we want to go
3 to the hospital.
4 Q. And what did he say?
5 A. I know that Major Sljivancanin at -- at that time or maybe just an
6 hour later or something said that we are not allowed to go to the hospital
7 due to -- they were still fighting.
8 Q. This was on the 19th?
9 A. It was on the 19th.
10 Q. And what about the phone call to Dr. Bosanac? Were you able or
11 allowed to phone her again?
12 A. No. We were told that we were not allowed to phone her.
13 Q. And can you remember who it was who said that?
14 A. It was Major Sljivancanin.
15 Q. And did he indicate why it was that you weren't able to speak to
16 Sljivancanin -- why you weren't able to speak to Dr. Bosanac?
17 A. Because -- because she were arrested.
18 Q. Did he say anything else about her?
19 A. Only this: That she were criminal.
20 Q. With regard to the hospital itself, was it important that you go
21 to the hospital that day or not?
22 A. It was important because we -- we want to -- monitoring the
23 evacuation of the hospital, and monitoring will of course start when --
24 when the hospital is taken over.
25 Q. How important is it, if you are going to have an evacuation of
1 wounded or perhaps even non-wounded people, that you find out the level of
2 injury or the numbers that have to be transported? Do you understand the
4 A. No, not -- no. You have to --
5 Q. All right.
6 A. -- rearrange.
7 Q. You've got an evacuation to make --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- of a hospital. Hospitals can have different types of injuries?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If you are wanting to have a successful evacuation, how important
12 is it to know what medical requirements there are to take the injured
13 people away?
14 A. It is, of course, important to know how many people there are, how
15 seriously injured they are. But you know the -- the evacuation itself, it
16 must come from JNA or Red Cross or another. Because we have no equipment
17 in the monitoring mission.
18 Q. But in relation to the evacuation, was it important or not to find
19 out the level of injuries that -- and the numbers --
20 A. Yes, it was important to know how many people it -- there were at
21 the hospital we had to evacuate. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. And were you able to -- or did you have any accurate
23 indication of the numbers that you would be evacuating or not on the 19th?
24 A. I have no number at the 19th.
25 Q. Thank you. Can we deal then with the 19th, what happened then at
1 that time. Did you have any other discussions with Major Sljivancanin?
2 A. There was a discussion in the evening, but I cannot refer it, I
3 cannot remember what it's about. It's just that we will receive some
4 message from -- about the evacuation, and the -- some of the team went
5 back to Belgrade that evening.
6 Q. What about you? Where did you stay?
7 A. I stay in Negoslavci that night.
8 Q. And who did you stay in Negoslavci with? Was there any other
10 A. There was -- I'm not sure that it was Mr. Kypr or -- but there
11 were -- I was together with some other monitors; I was not alone. We
12 were -- we had a -- a vehicle there, so we must at least be three people;
13 a driver and two monitors.
14 Q. Did you make any further request to go to see the hospital,
15 further request on the 19th?
16 A. On the 19th, yes. In the evening we tried to -- to -- we ask if
17 we could go to -- to the hospital, but they -- we could not go because
18 they are still fighting.
19 Q. Is it a case of you saying there was fighting, or is it a case
20 that you were told that there was fighting?
21 A. We were told that they were fighting.
22 Q. Let's then move to the following day, the 20th. Now, can you
23 remember the morning of the 20th?
24 A. I can remember the morning in that way that there was an agreement
25 from -- made -- I think made in Zagreb that Mr. Kypr and I were allowed to
1 go to the hospital to -- to monitoring the evacuation which Red Cross
2 should be -- no, not -- no, no. Which JNA should take -- should evacuate.
3 The JNA should evacuate the hospital.
4 Q. All right. Let's just -- you say you remember in the morning that
5 there was an agreement, you think, made in Zagreb?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. That you were allowed to go to the hospital. And you have said to
8 monitor the evacuation. But who was to be responsible for the evacuation?
9 A. The JNA was responsible for the evacuation.
10 Q. And what part was the ICRC to play?
11 A. They have to make register about all the patient.
12 Q. And did you know from your own personal knowledge when it was the
13 ICRC were supposed to register the patients? Now, if you don't know,
14 don't guess, please.
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. All right. Thank you. Did you ever see the document, what I will
17 call the evacuation document, prior to going to the hospital on the 20th?
18 A. I don't remember.
19 Q. So let's deal then, please, with the 20th. You say that you set
20 off. So let's deal with the morning, please. What -- what is your first
21 memory on the -- on the morning of the 20th? Can you tell the Court,
23 A. Yes. We have a short briefing in Negoslavci, and at that time the
24 monitor -- the other monitor arrived from Belgrade.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. And then I was told that it was only me and Mr. Kypr that were --
2 that should monitoring the hospital. And then we went from Negoslavci in
3 the morning at 8.00, I think it was, to Vukovar.
4 Q. And as far as you understood it, on the morning of the 20th --
5 A. The morning of the 20th.
6 Q. All right. What time did you believe that you would be going to
7 the hospital?
8 A. We thought we should go to the hospital immediately, at 8.00.
9 Q. And were you able to get to the hospital at 8.00?
10 A. No. We were stopped at the bridge in -- in the middle of the
11 city. And we were stopped because there was an APC on the bridge, and
12 Major Sljivancanin was at that place.
13 Q. And did you have any conversation or did you hear any explanation
14 given by Major Sljivancanin about why you couldn't proceed?
15 A. He said that we couldn't proceed because the road was not clear;
16 there were snipers and there was still some fighting.
17 Q. Did that surprise you?
18 A. Yes, because we saw no fighting. We only saw shooting in the
19 area, so -- celebrating the victory. And we saw some vehicles driving on
20 the other side.
21 Q. Perhaps it's the hearing. If you look at the transcript at
22 line 18, do you see it on the left-hand side, 64, 18? No, on the screen.
23 Have you got the screen in front of you?
24 A. I have the --
25 Q. Does it have a transcript?
1 A. It is in Serbo-Croatian, I can't read it.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is there one in English there? I hope so.
5 A. Yes, we saw no fire -- there were no fighting in the area. There
6 were only celebrating and firing in the air.
7 Q. In the air, because it comes across "in the area."
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. In the air.
10 A. In the air, just firing, celebrating.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Now, let us deal with the bridge. I will
12 show you a video perhaps of that in a moment. But at the time you've said
13 you were rather surprised. How long did you remain at the bridge, as far
14 as you can remember?
15 A. About two hours.
16 Q. And did you, when I say "you" I mean not just you but a group, did
17 you as a group or individually protest about the blockage on the bridge?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And who did you protest to?
20 A. To Major Sljivancanin.
21 Q. And can you remember what he said, in general terms?
22 A. Just that he would not let us allowed to go to the other side
23 because due to our security.
24 Q. Can I deal, please, with your stopping on the bridge and the
25 situation that was around you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see any other military forces around you at the bridge?
3 A. Yes, at the bridge we were secure by the military police. They
4 have a car and there were some maybe military police from JNA. And then
5 around us, especially on the stairs, up to a bank, a civilian bank just
6 beneath, there were a lot of Chetniks sitting or -- you can call it. They
7 wore civilian clothes and some military clothes and some -- and they were
8 shooting in the air, and they were shouting and they were drinking, and
9 there were women also with guns and shooting and drinking.
10 Q. Yes. Again, you have said the word "area," but by your own -- it
11 says "in the air." All right. And how did you find the atmosphere at the
13 A. It was -- oh, have to find the word. There were accusative to the
14 EC members.
15 Q. Now I want you to look at a video which we have seen, which is
16 about to be played. I'm told if you could close down your microphone.
17 Thank you very much.
18 MR. MOORE: I don't know about others, but I can't hear any sound
19 again, and I have checked three times whether there was going to be a
20 sound, and I was told on three occasions that there was sound. So I don't
21 know whether -- why there is a problem because I have checked literally so
22 many times.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. MOORE: Can we please go back to the beginning and have the
25 sound? Thank you.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. MOORE:
3 Q. Have you seen that video before?
4 A. Yes, I have seen that video before.
5 Q. All right. And with regard to the incident itself, is it right
6 that you saw that incident obviously not that close but --
7 A. I saw it, yes, yes.
8 Q. Was that the only argument that there was on the bridge with
9 Sljivancanin or not?
10 A. Explain that?
11 Q. Yes. Was that the only argument, the only disagreement with
12 Major Sljivancanin on the bridge?
13 A. No. The man from the Red Cross had a -- and shouting with
14 Major Sljivancanin the evening before.
15 Q. Thank you. I'll come back to that. But if I just deal with the
16 bridge, did you see any other arguments with Sljivancanin or not? Can you
18 A. No.
19 Q. No, there wasn't; or no, you can't remember?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. All right. You've told us that in actual fact you'd seen an
22 argument previously with that gentleman who is called Nicholas Borsinger.
23 Now, where had you seen him before?
24 A. I seen him in the headquarter in Negoslavci.
25 Q. And in what circumstances had you seen him?
1 A. I think it was at the meeting the evening before.
2 Q. And you say that you saw him having an argument with Sljivancanin?
3 A. Yes, or --
4 Q. Can you tell us, please, what -- what occurred?
5 A. It occurred about he -- he want to go to the hospital, the evening
7 Q. And when he said that, did Major Sljivancanin make any reply?
8 A. Only that he could not go to the hospital because there were --
9 they were fighting there.
10 Q. Can you remember why the -- why Borsinger, or the ICRC
11 representative -- why Borsinger wanted to go to the hospital the previous
13 A. No. He only -- the only thing I know is he want to make
14 registration of the patient.
15 Q. Thank you. Can I deal, then, with the bridge? You've told us
16 about the argument and the disagreement itself. You had Mr. Kypr with
17 you; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. But you did not have Colonel Cunningham with you that day; is that
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Where was Cunningham on the 20th, at around about 10.00? I'm not
23 asking that you know exactly, just in general.
24 A. No, he is I think, back in Belgrade to arrange the further
25 evacuation when we left the hospital.
1 Q. I want to deal, before we move over the bridge, I want to deal
2 with the relationship between Cunningham and Nicholas Borsinger.
3 I'd like you, if you would be kind enough, please, to turn up
4 tab 27. This, I believe, is Exhibit 333. Now, I don't want to go in any
5 great detail about other -- other parts of this. I have no doubt at all
6 that you'll be asked lots of questions about it. But I want to deal just
7 with the second paragraph.
8 Well, perhaps the better one to deal with is if you go to page
9 ZA00-4267, do you see that, the top of the page? 4267, have you got that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you got tab 27?
12 A. 27, no. I have 26. And 27, yes.
13 Q. Thank you very much. Could you go to 27, open it up, and if you
14 look at the top of the page you will have various numbers, which is
15 ZA00-4267. Have you got that?
16 A. 67.
17 Q. It should be a typed document.
18 A. Yes, I have it, yes.
19 Q. Good.
20 A. 4267.
21 Q. Yes, 4267. Thank you very much.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Now, can we just look at the very bottom of that page. It is
24 subparagraph number 7. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. "ICRC leader behaviour-Vukovar evacuation."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If I put it in very round terms, would it be right to say that
4 there was not -- in the English phrase, not a lot of love lost between
5 Colonel Cunningham and Mr. Borsinger?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now, with regard to the background, was there a reason that there
8 seemed to have been an element of disagreement between both of them?
9 A. Yes. I am aware of that there was -- there were -- they should
10 have taken a meeting on the other side of Vukovar -- other side of the
11 Dunav some days before where the IC [sic] member left the Red Cross in the
12 middle of nowhere.
13 Q. Well, you have said the IC. Do you mean the ECMM?
14 A. The ECMM, yes.
15 Q. So can we just deal with this, please? So some days before, the
16 ECMM member, is that Colonel Cunningham or ...
17 A. Yes, that's Colonel Cunningham.
18 Q. So Colonel Cunningham left the Red Cross. Was that Mr. Borsinger
19 or left the Red Cross generally?
20 A. I'm not sure.
21 Q. Left them -- what do you mean "left them"? He just said, Out of
22 the car and stay there, or was there a meeting? Can you be a little more
24 A. I have just heard it from Borsinger who claimed that Cunningham,
25 that he had to walk, I think, 10 kilometres back to a town.
1 Q. All right. So there was a meeting and --
2 A. It's -- it's only -- I only heard a little about it, but I know
3 there was some disagreement between these two.
4 Q. All right. And so with regard to the references to the ICRC
5 leader by Cunningham, are you able to assess whether Cunningham, putting
6 it as politely as I can, was not a great fan of Nicholas Borsinger, and
7 vice versa?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know.
9 Q. All right. If we just put that document away for a moment.
10 We are at the bridge, and eventually, as we see, the APC is
11 removed. And you made your way to the hospital. When you were in the
12 queue, were you aware that a number of buses had crossed over the Vukovar
13 river on the other bridge with a large number of principally men under the
14 control of the JNA?
15 A. We were not aware of that, no.
16 Q. When you got to the hospital, how did you find the overall
18 A. I found the overall situation very bad. The -- we were -- we were
19 told, and we saw, that the -- that a military medical unit had taken over
20 the hospital. And in the hospital there were these medical people, and
21 there were a lot of -- we can call them Chetniks inside the hospital, and
22 there were guns.
23 Q. And the Chetniks who were inside the hospital, were you able to
24 work out if any of them had taken some alcoholic drinks?
25 A. Yes, they were drunk.
1 Q. Thank you for that.
2 A. And also -- also some of these from the medical staff, they were
3 also -- they look -- I'm not sure that they have drunk, but they look like
4 they have drunk.
5 Q. And what about the level of organisation by the JNA medical staff
6 at that time?
7 A. At that time there were no organisation.
8 Q. The patients that you had gone to collect, were they still in the
10 A. In the hospital there were most -- mostly women and children.
11 Q. And --
12 A. And there were no -- and there were no -- not no, but there were
13 only few men in this -- in the basement of the hospital and there were no
14 people wounded the last day. I think the sick and the wounded in the
15 hospital, they were wounded almost 14 days before, I think. There were no
16 wounded -- no -- no wounded from the -- from the last week.
17 Q. No recent wounded. Is that how --
18 A. No recent wounded, yes.
19 Q. Now, you said that there were only a few men. Did it surprise you
20 that there were only a few men?
21 A. Yeah. It surprised us, and we asked why -- where the men were,
22 and we were told that they were taken away and some of them were arrested.
23 Q. Now, when you said you asked, who did you ask and who gave you
24 that information?
25 A. All our information came from Major Sljivancanin.
1 Q. And when Major Sljivancanin told you that, did you inquire why it
2 was that they had been taken away?
3 A. Only that -- the same as yes, they were criminal.
4 Q. That's what I'm trying to find out, what exactly it was he said.
5 So he said what, please?
6 A. I can only remember that he said that they were -- they were
8 Q. And did he say where they were taken to?
9 A. Only to prison.
10 Q. Only to what?
11 A. To a prison.
12 Q. To a prison. Did he say where that prison was?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you speak to any of the civilians who were present at that
16 A. Yes. We -- we speak to some -- some patient, and some of them
17 told us that the men or some of the men were taken away during the night.
18 Q. And, again, did you make any inquiry why it was that men were
19 taken away during the night?
20 A. We -- yes, we said that due to the -- due to the agreement, we
21 should evacuate all wounded from the hospital.
22 Q. And was there any reply to that?
23 A. Only that they -- that they were prisoner of war. Or criminal.
24 Q. How often did you see Sljivancanin that day?
25 A. I saw him when we arrived to the hospital and he -- I think he
1 were one hour or something like that, and then I don't remember -- I know
2 that he -- there was time when he -- he was not present at the hospital,
3 but I can't say how long time.
4 Q. Well, I'd like you just to -- and I don't mean this in any
5 discourteous way, please understand that, there you are, you get to the
6 hospital, you leave across the bridge, you said you got there about 8.00,
7 two hours, 10.00, how long did it take you to get to the hospital?
8 A. From the bridge?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Five minutes.
11 Q. All right. And when was it that you left the hospital?
12 A. We left the hospital in the afternoon.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- you say that you had spoken to
14 Sljivancanin at the hospital. Can you give us an indication of when it
15 was --
16 A. When we arrived the hospital.
17 Q. Yes, please listen. When it was that he was not there?
18 A. No, I can't tell you exactly.
19 Q. Well, was it in the afternoon or in the morning? Can you help us
20 in the generality?
21 A. He was when we arrived to the hospital, I can't tell you more. I
22 can't tell you any more.
23 Q. You don't know when he left?
24 A. I don't know, no.
25 Q. When in actual fact you departed from the hospital, in the
1 convoy --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- was he there or not?
4 A. I don't know. I don't remember.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Let's deal, then, with the evacuation of the
6 hospital with the JNA medical officers. How well was that done at the
8 A. Very bad. There were no organisation at the hospital at the 20th
9 of November. And it was a few person from the old staff that loaded
10 the -- the sick.
11 Q. I'd like to -- you to look at a video, please, and I hope that the
12 sound again will be on.
13 JUDGE PARKER: And what is the exhibit number of this video?
14 MR. MOORE: We're just locating it. It's on the index. It's
15 Exhibit 319. Your Honour will find it on the final page.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. MOORE:
18 Q. Again, have you seen that video before?
19 A. I have seen that video, yes.
20 Q. I think you saw it here?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And there is Borsinger saying that the ICRC were unable to do
23 their job.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Is that, in your judgement, correct or not?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. They were told just outside -- outside -- when we entered the
4 hospital the security of the hospital, if there were any security, were
5 told that they -- the only person that could cross -- go to the hospital
6 were Mr. Kypr and I.
7 Q. You've told us that you saw Major Sljivancanin on the morning of
8 the 20th, and you have said that he had had dealings with Borsinger on the
9 bridge on the 20th, and Borsinger on the evening of the 19th.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did Major Sljivancanin ever express any view about the ICRC?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Any opinion?
14 A. Yes. He said to us, I can't remember if -- if it were in the
15 morning or in the evening, he said it, but he said that he don't trust
16 Red Cross, that they had tried to reach the hospital, but he had throw
17 them away.
18 Q. He had what?
19 A. He had take them back again. So that they couldn't reach the
21 Q. And to what day did that refer?
22 A. That referred to the 19th in the evening, or in the night between
23 the 19th and the 20th.
24 Q. And did he say why he didn't trust the Red Cross?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can I deal with, again, Major Sljivancanin at the hospital? You
2 have told us that he was there in the morning of the 20th. Did you ever
3 see any journalists at the hospital on the 20th?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Can you tell us when you saw the journalists? I'm not saying the
6 exact time.
7 A. I -- I think it was in the afternoon or --
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. After -- after -- yes, 1.00, 2.00, something like that.
10 Q. Thank you. And was there any JNA representative with the
12 A. Yes, Major Sljivancanin.
13 Q. So Major Sljivancanin and the journalists. What was he doing with
14 them at that time?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Well, did you see it?
17 A. I only saw that he bring some journalists in. I did not wait for
18 the press conference or he -- whatever.
19 Q. The actual evacuation itself, can we just deal with that, I think,
20 in brief order? But before we do, would you be kind enough, please, to
21 deal with what I will call tab 40? It is not an exhibit as yet. The ERN
22 number is 00099998 to 9999, both in English and B/C/S.
23 Now, have you got this document in front of you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. It is a typed document.
1 A. Yes, I have.
2 Q. Now, if we just look at the second page, there seems to be a
3 signature. It's in very -- a very bad photocopy, but just above it seems
4 to be your name, Jan Schou, medical doctor, ECMM. Is that right?
5 A. Yes, that's right.
6 Q. The date is the 22nd of the 11th, 1991?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Now, who compiled this document?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Thank you. And what was this document -- why did you compile it?
11 Why did you make it?
12 A. I make it in Zagreb.
13 Q. Thank you. And why did you do this document?
14 A. I do it as a report about the evacuation of Vukovar Hospital. And
15 the report is giving to the head of mission.
16 Q. Thank you very much, indeed. I'm not going to deal with
17 the 19th. We've -- see that at the top. Then the 20th, there are various
18 details. If we just look at the timing, 10.30, ECMM arrived at hospital,
19 then there is the unloading. 1600 hours, it actually says "lived
20 hospital." I presume that means left?
21 A. Left, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. And "rest" stands for?
23 A. The rest people in the hospital. The people we -- we left in the
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. In Vukovar.
2 Q. Then 1700 hours, bus with medical staff entered by Chetnik with --
3 with what?
4 A. With knife.
5 Q. Had you seen any misbehaviour, any bad behaviour by Chetniks in
6 and around the hospital that day?
7 A. Yes. I saw -- I saw some of these Chetniks beating the patient
8 laying on the floor.
9 Q. And where was -- where were the patients? You say laying on the
10 floor. Was that inside the hospital or --
11 A. It was inside the hospital.
12 Q. And how many times did you see beatings or abuses?
13 A. Two or three times, I think. And then we -- we claim it to -- to
14 the JNA -- to our security guard, and they -- they took the -- the people,
15 the people outside.
16 Q. Thank you. Then if we look at 2100 hours, you arrived at the
17 military infirmary in Sremska Mitrovica. I think is it right that one
18 died en route and one, there was a immediate operation; is that correct?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And we have got entries for 2200 and 2400 hours. And then we move
21 on to the 21st of the 11th. And it relates to the Belgrade team, and the
22 unloading of the wounded. Is that correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. Can I ask you just about the entry of -- for 900, the 40 badly
25 wounded. What treatment was organised by the JNA for those badly wounded
2 A. As I remember, there were no treatment.
3 MR. MOORE: Mr. Vasic, I think.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
6 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I have no objection, but if my learned
7 friend could just please slow down. We have an interpreter on the brink
8 of collapse again. I believe it is very difficult for the accused, first
9 and foremost, to follow the proceedings. Therefore, if my learned friend
10 could just slow down slightly, please.
11 MR. MOORE: Of course I will.
12 Q. You have told us that there was -- let me just repeat that. I
13 asked the question, what treatment was organised by the JNA for those
14 badly wounded, and as you remember, there was no treatment.
15 Can we look at the entry for 1500 hours, please? Do you see it?
16 A. 15 -- the 21 of --
17 Q. Well, I'm working on the basis that it's 1500 hours.
18 A. 1500 hours, yes.
19 Q. Because 00, 1500 hours, then it goes on 1860, I'm working on the
20 basis 1500 hours. And then: "Left behind 50 wounded SRB and 30 staff,
21 SRB." Presumably that's Serb; is that right?
22 A. Yes, Serbs, yes.
23 Q. Yes. And: "Plus two dying wounded Croat."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you very much. There is an entry just immediately below
1 that, you see it says: "ICRC have the name of all wounded from the 21st
2 of November."
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Now, I stress the word "all". Did the ICRC have a list of all the
5 wounded before that date?
6 A. No. They only have the -- they only make list on the 21, 21st of
7 November. And they have the list of all the wounded that were
8 transported -- that were taking out of the hospital at the 21st of
10 Q. Just comments, if I may. We've already dealt with the 19th
11 evidentially, but I'll deal with it here. Please just look at where
12 comments is. Thank you. "ICMM doctor were not allowed to go to the
14 The doctor, is that you?
15 A. That's me.
16 Q. Thank you. And: "Told by JNA removed Ustasha wounded 8
17 plus 2 staff. ICMM" -- well --
18 A. No, that's -- the ICMM, that's the 20th.
19 Q. Thank you. So told by JNA that they removed Ustasha wounded.
20 There were 8 --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and two staff?
23 A. Two from the staff.
24 Q. Who told you that on the 19th?
25 A. Major Sljivancanin.
1 Q. Thank you. Was there any indication of either --
2 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours. Your Honours.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Vasic.
4 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] I would really, really kindly ask my
5 learned friend to please slow down a little and to make pauses between
6 questions and answers. For the last five minutes I don't think the
7 accused have been able to follow what exactly is going on here. The
8 interpreters are having one hell of a time catching up. And if my learned
9 friend could just slow down, please.
10 MR. MOORE: Well, I'm sorry, it's my fault. Normally I hear if
11 the interpreters have a difficulty. I hear, Could counsel slow down.
12 I've not heard anything like that. But I'll try to slow down, if that
14 Q. Let's deal with the comments again, 19th of the 11th. "Told by
15 JNA removed Ustasha wounded, 8 and 2 staff."
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. And you said that was told by --
18 A. Major --
19 Q. -- Major Sljivancanin?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. I'll pause.
22 And was there any indication of where those wounded Ustasha were
24 A. To prison.
25 Q. And with regard to the medical care, was there any reference to
1 what would happen to them if they were -- because they were wounded?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Let's move to the 20th. There is reference to Chetnik in
4 hospital. We've dealt with that.
5 "Nothing prepared by JNA and ICRC." Well, we have heard about the
6 ICRC and we have heard about the JNA; I needn't repeat that.
7 Can we deal with A, please? "ICRC -- leader ICRC only criticised
9 A. Yes. It was what I observed at the bridge.
10 Q. Thank you. "That he made no list of the wounded."
11 A. Yes, that's correct. And that's of course because he was not
12 allowed to go to the hospital.
13 Q. Thank you. And then 3: "Able to do nothing."
14 Can we deal with,"JNA," please? Firstly, 1. Can you read it out,
16 A. Yes. "No security. There were many Chetniks. Too many officers,
17 only few soldier." It was the medical staff I mean there.
18 Q. Yes. And 3?
19 A. "No control, no organising." In the hospital, of course. "Only
20 few soldier helping carrying the wounded. Some Chetnik beat the wounded."
21 Q. And that was in the hospital?
22 A. And that was in the hospital. And there was shooting in the area
23 for fun.
24 Q. Well, it says "aria."
25 A. I know.
1 Q. A musical note. But I take it that that's air?
2 A. In the area. Around the hospital they were shooting, but it's
3 celebrating again, for fun.
4 Q. All right. And 7, please?
5 A. 7: "Mortar firing from the city." We heard a mortaring firing,
7 Q. Thank you very much. And then let's move on to the staff, what
8 your conclusions were there.
9 A. "Most of the staff" -- it means the staff of the hospital, of the
10 Vukovar Hospital. "The most of the staff went into the buses
11 immediately." They did not help at all. "There were only two person from
12 the staff, a priest and a nurse, that most of the time helped carrying and
13 loaded the wounded." And: "There were no priority of the patient."
14 Q. What do you mean by that?
15 A. I mean that they just take the patient out of the hospital into
16 these trucks, then one who can walk and then one on -- who were badly
17 wounded, and then -- there were no priority. Normally you have one, two,
18 three, four, priority, which kind of -- it's the kind of illness they
20 Q. But why is priority important in an evacuation of wounded?
21 A. It's because they only have a few ambulance, and of course they
22 have to put the badly wounded in the ambulance and the poor wounded in the
23 buses, and not the opposite way.
24 Q. And even though it may seem perfectly obvious to you, why is that
1 A. It's because in -- in -- it is -- we saw it but it is really
2 difficult to have badly wounded patient laying in a bus at the seat, over
3 the seat. They are falling down and everything.
4 Q. Just turning the page can we deal with 6, please?
5 A. "No personnel in the ambulance." There were no medical personnel
6 in the ambulance.
7 Q. And again, why is that important?
8 A. Because they have to treat the wounded people on the
9 transportation. Normally in a civilian ambulance there is two -- one or
10 two person that could take care of this wounded.
11 Q. And why is it important to have the personnel? What affect can it
12 have if you don't have it?
13 A. If you don't have it --
14 Q. On a long evacuation.
15 A. On a long -- sometimes the patient may die because of he become --
16 became ill and couldn't breathe or something like that. You maybe had to
17 help him.
18 Q. Let's -- let's deal with B, then, please, moving on.
19 A. "No secure in transportation."
20 Q. What do you mean by that?
21 A. I mean there were no regular soldier that secured these transport
22 of wounded.
23 Q. And what -- what have we got just below that?
24 A. "The Chetnik went into the buses and were treating the wounded
25 with knives."
1 Q. I presume they weren't treating them but perhaps threatening?
2 A. Threatening, okay. Yes.
3 Q. And did you see that?
4 A. I did not see it. I heard it. I heard -- we were told that
5 during this transportation to the military hospital.
6 Q. And then if we just look, if I do it shortly, I'll just take a
7 pause for the translation.
8 With regard to C and D, the infirmary in Sremska Mitrovica, what
9 you're basically saying there is that it was good medical?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And there was food supply; is that right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. There is reference to a pregnant woman dying and then one was sent
14 to Belgrade for an operation?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let us deal then by way of comparison with the 21st of November.
17 How did the ICRC perform the following day?
18 A. The following day they -- there were at -- at the morning and
19 member of the IC in the hospital, and he make lists of all the patient.
20 Q. Well, shall I just read it into the record and hope that it
21 doesn't offend anyone. 1, good prepared, list, et cetera; 2, good helping
22 in organising all; and 3, the leader was only making trouble.
23 A. Yes. That's Mr. Borsinger, yes.
24 Q. Okay. B: "The lieutenant-colonel was making a good job." This
25 is in respect of the JNA. "However, the buses were bad for wounded
1 people." Is that right?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. What was 3 then, please?
4 A. There was better security but still Chetnik in the hospital. It
5 means that the hospital -- at the hospital there were more military police
6 that day. So -- so no -- so there were a kind of guard around the
8 Q. And number 4?
9 A. Number 4, 10 to 15 drunk officers, it was do nothing. And the
10 drunk officers, from the medical unit.
11 Q. And how badly drunk were they? Can you give us any indication of
12 how you came to this conclusion?
13 A. They -- they must have walked like this.
14 Q. All right. Then moving on. "Staff" -- perhaps I needn't go on to
16 JUDGE PARKER: I must stop you there, Mr. Moore. Our tapes are
17 running out.
18 MR. MOORE: I only have, I would think, about 20 minutes more, if
20 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
21 We adjourn now for the second break and resume at five minutes
22 to 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you very much.
1 There is one thing that I would like to clarify. The exhibit
2 marked as 338, we have the photographs that were at tab 41. It is a
3 65 ter document, number 66. The set contains 15 photographs. What I want
4 to know is whether my learned friend has tendered all 15 photographs or
5 just the ones that he's been showing the witness today. I believe that
6 all 15 photographs from this tab number are actually in the folder,
7 whereas my learned friend has only shown three. So that's one thing that
8 I would like to clarify. Thank you.
9 JUDGE PARKER: The answer is so far there are only three
10 photographs in the exhibit. If more are tendered by Mr. Moore, they can
11 be included in that same exhibit number.
12 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 MR. MOORE: And to help my learned friend, I will be referring to
14 some of those photographs at the end.
15 Q. Dr. Schou, would you be kind enough, please, just to turn up -
16 we've nearly finished - the document at our tab 40, which I will seek to
17 make an exhibit in due course. Now we have finished at C, saying "staff."
18 Have you got that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Good. So we have got staff, then ECMM?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. "Help carrying the first 10 wounded." Can you deal with number 2,
24 A. Number 2: "We were told we were not allowed to help. We were
25 only allowed to monitoring."
1 Q. Thank you. And that it was JNA responsibility?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. And I see that -- Medecins sans Frontieres presumably
4 is MSF, and there is reference to that.
5 Now, may I just move down to general comments? Can we deal,
6 please, with your assessment of the JNA participation?
7 A. Yes. I said with number 1 that they were "very bad organisation
8 of the evacuation (logistic, organisation, work and their priority)".
9 Q. Yes. Could I deal with number 3?
10 A. "No security of the wounded."
11 Q. And that related to what, inside the hospital?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Outside the hospital?
14 A. It is inside the hospital and the transportation from Vukovar
15 Hospital to the military hospital.
16 Q. We've got 4 already. What about 5, please?
17 A. "No control over Chetnik."
18 It means that they could, at the 20th they could walk and -- walk
19 inside the hospital. No one is stopping them.
20 Q. Now, can I deal with number 6?
21 A. Yes, number 6, that we were told that there were wounded and
22 staff, some of the staff, they were removed from the hospital before we
24 Q. And with regard to the wounded, as far as you are aware, did
25 that -- an English word is "accord." Did that correspond, was that the
1 same as the -- the agreement?
2 A. No. The agreement said that we had to evacuate all the wounded.
3 Q. Thank you. And then we've got: "Shooting mortar from Vukovar."
4 "The ICRC" -- I'll just read it so it goes into the record -- "bad
5 leader, 2, no help on the 20th, 3, good help 21st."
6 Medecins sans Frontieres, you took the view, doing nothing on the
7 21st. Dealing with the staff, "left at the first" the first bus?
8 A. Yes. It means that the staff of the hospital in Vukovar. They
9 were the first that left the area.
10 Q. And they should have been what?
11 A. They should have been helping loading the people and arrange the
12 people that would be loaded first and so on.
13 Q. Thank you. Number 2, I see a pun. "Very, very God help from the
15 A. No, good -- It means good, good help.
16 Q. Perhaps just a slip. So very, very good help from the priest?
17 A. The priest and the nurse.
18 Q. All right. Good work in the hospital, no preparing the
19 evacuation. And then there is reference to the ECMM.
20 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, may I make application, please, for this
21 exhibit -- this document to be made an exhibit?
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit 341.
25 MR. MOORE:
1 Q. I'd like to deal, please, with a series of photographs that you
2 took. They have just been referred to, and I don't want to put them all
3 before you but just some. Would you be kind enough, please, to turn up
4 the photographs themselves, and I will give you the various numbers. Have
5 you got 6981? So 0036-6981. Have you got that?
6 A. No, not on the screen.
7 Q. No, that's a different number, isn't it? So 66973. There we are,
8 that's the one we want. Thank you very much. That's kind of you.
9 Now, this photograph, who took this photograph?
10 A. Me or one of the other ECMM.
11 Q. And do you know what day this was, 18th, 19th, 20th?
12 A. It was on the 18th.
13 Q. And where was it taken?
14 A. It was taken in the refugee centre.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Can we turn over the page, 6983? So it is
16 the next to be shown. Well, second. Yes.
17 This gentleman?
18 A. This gentleman is a Danish EC member.
19 Q. And -- and who was this other fellow?
20 A. The other fellow is one of the defenders in the city, one of the
21 Chetniks. And this picture is taken at the hill where we can see the bus
23 Q. When this photograph was taken, was there any JNA officer around
24 at that time?
25 A. Yes. Just after this photo was taken, Major Sljivancanin came and
1 said we were not allowed to take pictures of the defenders because they
2 were not ordinary soldiers.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Moore, the answer before that said this is one
5 of the defenders, a Chetnik. And I think there is a confusion there.
6 MR. MOORE: The way we use defenders.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 Q. Can I put it this way: The way we use "defender" here in this
9 court, we use "defender" invariably to mean a Croatian defender of Vukovar
10 and a chet -- well, I'm trying to just find common ground.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, please let Mr. Moore finish this and
12 then. Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Moore.
14 No, Mr. Borovic. Mr. Moore.
15 MR. MOORE:
16 Q. You have said "defender" and "Chetnik." They tend to mean
17 different things for us.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you be precise?
20 A. I can be precise.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. The other person on this picture is a Chetnik who is based inside
23 Vukovar at the hill just -- at the hill we were -- where we were watching
24 the bus station. And he is from -- he is an irregular soldier or what do
25 you call it.
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 JUDGE PARKER: And for clarity, the person in white is the ECMM
3 monitor; is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: That's correct. That's a Danish ECMM monitor.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Let's remove the confusion.
6 Now, Mr. Borovic.
7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
8 The witness himself gave the answer. He said it was a defender of
9 the town. It is altogether another matter that those people in the OTP's
10 view were not the defenders of the town. That doesn't necessarily mean
11 they weren't defenders. Maybe that was the impression that the witness
12 had at the time. That can be explained. If that is the witness's answer,
13 this was one of the town's defenders, I don't think there is any reason to
14 change what the witness is saying.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: The confusion, Mr. Borovic, was mine, in that there
17 has been a preponderance of evidence to date that uses the term "defender"
18 in respect of Croatian forces. Now, that means that it is ambiguous as it
19 appeared there, and I felt it necessary to make it clear whether it was
20 Croatian or JNA or Serbian. And we have an answer that makes it clear.
21 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. Can we just move on, and I want
22 to deal with photograph -- there are actually two that I want to be taken
23 in sequence. 0036-6985, firstly, and then followed by 87, please. Could
24 we -- there we are, that's the first one. Again -- thank you.
25 Can we just go back to the first one and then -- that's exactly
1 what I want, but not that one first. The other, please. Thank you very
3 Q. Now, again, is this one of your photographs?
4 A. It's one of the ECMM members photographs, yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much. It's of the hospital. Is that right?
6 A. That's outside the hospital, yes.
7 Q. And what date was that; can you remember?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Look to the right-hand side, you see an orange square.
10 Do you see it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And there seems to be two soldiers there. Is that right or not?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Do you know who they are or what they are?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. Can we turn over, please, to 87? The next photograph.
17 Thank you very much.
18 Again, the hospital, I want you to look at the roof. Would you be
19 kind enough?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, as we move along the roof to the right-hand side, there seems
22 to be a white square patch?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know what that is?
2 A. Yes, that's the rest of the red cross flag on the top of the roof.
3 Q. Well, the photograph doesn't see the red cross itself. Is that a
4 case it was faded, it didn't exist, or just the photograph?
5 A. It's just the photograph. I saw the red cross on the roof.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can I go to the next photograph, which
7 is 89? So 36-6989. This would appear to be as we call the back entrance,
8 the emergency area. What is this? What does this photograph show us,
10 A. This photograph is showing the JNA vehicle in which we are loading
11 the patient.
12 Q. Patient or patients, plural?
13 A. Some of -- I did not -- some of the patient from the hospital.
14 Q. Thank you. And then I want to take the following photographs in
15 sequence: 91 and 93. 91 and 93. You can show 93 as well, if you would
16 be kind enough. Thank you very much.
17 Now, can you tell us where these photographs were taken, please?
18 A. They were taken in the front side of the hospital, and it -- I
19 think it -- or I could see some of the hospital staff.
20 Q. And can you remember what day that was?
21 A. That was on the 20th.
22 Q. Thank you very much. I want to move on to photograph 95, so
23 it's 995. And 999. 995 should be a -- the photographs, people are -- in
24 the hospital itself.
25 Can you tell us when these photographs were taken?
1 A. They're taken on the 20th of November.
2 Q. And they -- the other photograph, 99?
3 A. It was taken in October.
4 Q. So the -- the 99 is in October?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the 95?
7 A. The previously, it was in November.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then finally, for these photographs, if we go to 997. What
11 exactly is this then, please?
12 A. This is taken in October, and it is -- it is exactly all the
13 equipment, all the medicine they have in the hospital in October.
14 Q. Thank you very much. You have told us about the -- the convoy
15 leaving on the 20th. And I think it's right to say that you brought to
16 the Tribunal a document, a newspaper?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And that particular document, would you be kind enough, please, to
19 turn up tab 42?
20 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, can I formally apply for the photographs
21 to be an exhibit, or should I say included in the exhibit where the
22 photographs are mentioned?
23 JUDGE PARKER: They will be included in the Exhibit 338.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.
25 MR. MOORE:
1 Q. I'd like to just deal with this document, which I saw for the
2 first time last night at about 6.30, I think. The date is the 21st of
3 November, 1991?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Now, can you just tell us what the headline says? I'm not going
6 ask you to translate the rest of the document.
7 A. The headline is that -- this is, you can say, the dead hospital.
8 Q. And how was it that this particular -- is it on the -- is it on
9 the screen? Yes, we will produce it through Sanction, if we may, with the
10 Court's leave.
11 Now, how was it that this particular article came to be written?
12 What part did you play in the material that's included here?
13 A. On the night -- the night of the 20th -- 20 of November, when I
14 were in the hospital in Sremska.
15 Q. Mitrovica, yes?
16 A. Mitrovica, I called a Danish newspaper person who were in Belgrade
17 at that time, and I tell her that I have been at -- in the hospital in
18 Vukovar and that I have seen that almost all the men were taken away --
19 not taken away, but they were not in the hospital when I arrived at the
21 Q. And is it right that in this document there is reference to that
22 part of your evidence. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, it's -- it say, yes.
24 Q. Would you be kind enough to read out, if you are able to do so,
25 the short passage that refers to that part of your evidence?
1 Now, where can we find it, first of all? There are three columns.
2 A. Yes, just a moment.
3 Q. I think you located it last night.
4 A. Yes, yes, but this is a bad copy, so ...
5 Q. Have you got the original?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic [sic].
8 It's Mr. Lukic, I beg your pardon.
9 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We're back to where we first began,
10 if the witness will now read something that we're not familiar with, and
11 we don't even have an official interpretation in a language that we
12 understand. We, or our clients, for that matter.
13 Well, my understanding was the witness may be asked something
14 about that conversation but not read out portions of an article that we
15 have never seen before. We have no idea what this is about. Will the
16 witness be translating for us, will he be reading out portions for us?
17 But that is not the gist of his testimony. The gist is he talked to a
18 journalist. Maybe he can tell us something about that, instead of reading
19 an article for our benefit that we have never seen before.
20 I think the Defence is definitely disadvantaged here because we
21 are hardly in a position to ask questions about such a document, a
22 document that is being introduced through the back door, as it were, by
23 the OTP. The witness will now apparently be reading portions of a
24 document that we know nothing about.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. There is no back door in this
1 courtroom, Mr. Lukic. Understand that.
2 The document comes in the -- at the stage of the witness's
3 evidence where he has told you what he saw on the 20th of November.
4 Rightly or wrongly, that is his evidence. He says confirmation to me and
5 for my evidence that I saw it on the 20th of November, is that I also
6 spoke that day to a reporter and that reporter published an article the
7 next day which mentioned that fact.
8 Now, that's the sole relevance and basis for this document. It
9 enables, when we're looking back 15 years or so, to have another
10 cross-reference on time to the evidence that the witness has expressly
11 given as to what he saw and observed. Now, the witness is about to read
12 in English the Danish newspaper article which will provide us all for the
13 first time with some approximate interpretation.
14 Given the subject matter, it may be unlikely that in the end there
15 will be any dispute, once the members of the Defence have had an
16 opportunity to verify, that there will be any dispute that such an article
17 was published in that newspaper on that day. If that is not a matter of
18 dispute in the end, it will be possible today or tomorrow for the Defence
19 to deal with the simple proposition, "I spoke to a reporter on the 20th
20 and that reporter published an article on the 21st in Denmark."
21 So, on that basis, Mr. Moore may proceed with what is happening,
22 leaving open to Defence full opportunity to test the proposition that this
23 article was ever published. The article itself will not be received in
24 evidence, even if it's tendered, unless the Defence want it. It can be
25 marked for identification.
1 Carry on, please, Mr. Moore.
2 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
3 Q. We have got three columns. Have you got one that you can read
5 A. Yes, I have.
6 Q. And the part -- I don't want the whole article read.
7 A. No, I know.
8 Q. Is it first, second or third column?
9 A. It's in the middle column. You can see in the middle.
10 Q. Yes. Well, would you be kind enough to read out slowly,
11 please --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- or give us your interpretation of what is written?
14 A. Yes. "Soldiers throw the Red Cross people out and take away a lot
15 of human patient before army evacuate the rest of the hospital of 407
16 wounded and ill."
17 JUDGE PARKER: Having the added benefit of a Scandinavian speaker
18 with me, the word you translated as "human" I am told may have another
19 meaning. What was the meaning?
20 THE WITNESS: Was meaning that it was only men that were taken
22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Judge Thelin tells me the word is "male."
23 THE WITNESS: Male, yes.
24 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much.
25 Q. And I think it's right to say you then concluded your mission with
1 the evacuation of people from Vukovar on the 20th and 21st of November?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. MOORE: Your Honour, I would ask that for that to be marked
5 for identification. I don't know if it's going to become necessary or
7 JUDGE PARKER: It's important for the purposes of the Defence that
8 it be kept on record in case it is disputed.
9 MR. MOORE: Yes, of course.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It will be marked for identification.
11 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And that concludes --
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit 342 marked for
14 MR. MOORE: Thank you very much. And that concludes the
15 examination-in-chief of this witness.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Moore.
17 Mr. Vasic.
18 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I hope you will keep in mind the plea that came
20 from the heart of Mr. Lukic when he commenced his cross-examination of the
21 last witness. That he is always left until last and never has enough
22 time. So that out of sympathy for your colleague, if you can please
23 concentrate on what is important.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will certainly keep that
1 in mind, both the witness's testimony and my learned friend's remark.
2 I think it would be a wise idea to perhaps apply the method that
3 has so far proved very useful, perhaps to finish early today so that the
4 Defence teams may be allowed time to better organise ourselves for
5 tomorrow and be more effective. Unfortunately, I had the dubious honour
6 with the last witness to tender a lot of documents, and that's why it took
7 so long. There were tab numbers missing in some cases in some of the
8 documents my learned friend used after me. Be that as it may, I will keep
9 the limitations in mind with this witness, and we shall make it as brief
10 as necessary.
11 JUDGE PARKER: That's hardly firm enough to give the Chamber
12 enough comfort, "as brief as necessary." It is very clear that the doctor
13 ought to be able to be finished in his evidence tomorrow and away for the
15 Now, Mr. Lukic has some particular interest with this witness, I
16 would think, so that yourself and Mr. Borovic might approach your
17 questioning accordingly. It's a full quarter of an hour we would be
18 losing. You feel that that will be time well invested?
19 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do believe so. I am
20 quite certain that both my learned friend Borovic and I can do a good job
21 dividing our questions up, thus leafing more than sufficient time for
22 Mr. Lukic tomorrow.
23 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues] ... your
24 conversations because he will want some time.
25 Mr. Lukic, you are on your feet for some reason.
1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Well, I'm a little concerned by the
2 fact that you have just mentioned, Your Honour, that we have to finish the
3 witness tomorrow.
4 So far Mr. Sljivancanin's Defence has always done its best in
5 terms of the needs of any particular witness. We have been very
6 cooperative, I should say. If we are expected tomorrow to comply with
7 certain dead-lines, we might not be able to meet them, especially if there
8 is likely to be any re-examination by Mr. Moore. I can't guarantee
9 that, it's as simple as that. I cannot offer a full guarantee. This is,
10 after all, an exceptionally important witness for us, and we wish to take
11 full advantage of our rights under Article 21. You have pointed out the
12 importance of cross-examination yourself on a number of different
13 occasions. We need to be given a chance to cross-examine effectively
14 without having to look at the clock all the time.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Lukic, I know the load has fallen on you
16 somewhat unevenly in this respect. And that's why I am urging your two
17 learned colleagues to look very carefully at what they're doing. I think
18 you will also agree that the Chamber has been concerned throughout to
19 enable fair time to all accused and to the Prosecution. We have not
20 imposed arbitrary time limits on anybody. But increasingly, and
21 consistently, witnesses are taking much longer than anticipated, and the
22 trial is slipping out longer and longer. And if you look back over the
23 record, so much time has been spent on issues that are side issues. There
24 aren't many critical issues in this case, they are critical and they
25 deserve full attention, but so many of the issues that are not critical
1 have absorbed a lot of time, and I, in that observation, include all
2 counsel, Prosecution and Defence.
3 The Chamber will increasingly have to become insistent on time
4 limits, because we cannot allow the trial to keep dragging longer without
5 good reason. If there's good reason, I think you see already that we do
6 not limit. But when we don't see good reason we're just going to have to
7 be more determined, because this trial must finish, in fairness to your
8 clients, in fairness to the other accused waiting for their trials to
10 So, with those words of encouragement, we ask Defence counsel to
11 look tonight. It's also fair enough to say that the witness would be here
12 over a weekend and would have to wait into next week if it was not
13 finished tomorrow. So bear that in mind.
14 We will adjourn now and be ready for one of the very good
15 performances tomorrow of all counsel as they focus on the important
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 31st day of March,
19 2006, at 9.00 a.m.