Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11943

1 Friday, 15 September 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. Judge Thelin is not able to sit

7 today, but we expect that he will be able to sit from Monday.

8 There's a second issue that has arisen. It will be necessary for

9 us to alter the normal timetable this morning a little. We will sit for

10 two sessions of one hour, 40 minutes, which is longer than we normally

11 extend, and we will have one 20-minute break. That will reach us to 1.00,

12 and it will then be necessary for us to adjourn for the day.

13 Done that way, we will lose only 25 minutes of sitting time and it

14 should not affect Mr. Lukic or Mr. Bulatovic, because they're first up

15 this morning, and the -- I am afraid it is just necessary that there be a

16 break at that time. People may have noticed that I am sitting in two

17 other cases with two other Judges this afternoon, and much must be done

18 before 2.15.

19 So we will go one hour, 40, have a 20-minute break; one hour, 40,

20 and that, if my sums are correct, will get us to 1.00.

21 Good morning, sir. If I could remind you of the affirmation you

22 made at the beginning of your evidence, that still applies.

23 Mr. Weiner.

24 MR. WEINER: Good morning, Your Honour. With the Court's

25 permission, may Mr. Theunens sit us with this morning, from the OTP?

Page 11944

1 JUDGE PARKER: I see no objection, and it's our normal custom with

2 experts, yes.

3 Any other issue?

4 Mr. Lukic, I believe you have a little problem.

5 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Now that you make this offer, I just

6 wanted to check in with something. We filed a motion with the Chamber

7 yesterday for our expert report to be allowed seven days later in relation

8 to how it was originally planned.

9 Our report is rather lengthy; it runs into about 100 pages. We've

10 tried to organise something with the translation service of the Tribunal,

11 but they seem to be snowed under right now with their work, so we have

12 sent the report to Belgrade for translation, which should be completed one

13 of these days. I know now that Mr. Weiner does not oppose a later

14 submission of this report.

15 Mr. Vuga, if, indeed, he is to appear in this case, will be our

16 last witness and this will leave us with plenty of time for the OTP to

17 familiarise themselves with the expert report. You remember that during

18 the summer he drafted an additional expert report, because certain aspects

19 of the OTP's expert witnesses' accounts needed supplementing. We have

20 received word from Belgrade that the report is nearing completion.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, Mr. Moore had some comments on this and

23 I tried to get him this morning, but he was in transit, and I would be

24 able to contact him during the break and just see what his comments were

25 on this.

Page 11945

1 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think, Mr. Weiner, the Chamber can deal

2 with the matter now, even if we assume there was objection.

3 MR. WEINER: Personally, I don't see any objection to it, because

4 schedule-wise we can move it towards the end and we will still have

5 sufficient time to deal with it.

6 JUDGE PARKER: You have a week extra, Mr. Lukic.

7 Now, Mr. Vasic.

8 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, now that we've started

9 raising procedural matters, I'm not sure if I should raise this issue now

10 or at the end of today. It's about the next witness and the Chamber's

11 order. We have received all our medical files, and if this is something

12 that the Chamber wishes to deal with now, I think it might be a good idea

13 to go into private session. It is a sensitive issue. Or perhaps we best

14 just leave it for the end of today. I'm not sure what fits our schedule

15 better.

16 JUDGE PARKER: From the sounds of it, it is a little more detailed

17 than the matters we've mentioned so far, so hopefully we will have three

18 or four minutes at the end of the day before 1.00.

19 MR. VASIC: Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters can't hear

23 counsel.

24 JUDGE PARKER: You have to speak up, Mr. Bulatovic. Your

25 microphone is pointing away from you, almost.

Page 11946

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It's not reaching the interpreters.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Microphone not activated].

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter still can't hear Counsel

5 Bulatovic.

6 JUDGE PARKER: All right. Carry on, Mr. Bulatovic. Just speak

7 up.

8 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best, Your Honours,

9 but it seems that the equipment isn't working properly.

10 Is it all right now?

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we're hearing the interpretation clearly.

12 Carry on. Just assume that we don't have any microphones here and you are

13 determined that Mr. Weiner will hear every word you say. So speak to Mr.

14 Weiner.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Bulatovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jaksic, please bear in mind the caution,

19 yesterday's caution, about the way we talk. Try to comply with our --

20 there were certain problems yesterday. You were speeding with your

21 answers. Please wait for me to complete my question.

22 A. I will do my best.

23 Q. I will try to keep my questions short and clear. Please try to

24 answer the same way, and I hope we can finish up soon.

25 A. Fine.

Page 11947

1 Q. I heard yesterday that you said that your direct superior in

2 October, 1991, was Mr. Mrksic.

3 A. Correct.

4 Q. You said there were daily briefings with Mr. Mrksic that you went

5 to and daily briefings at the headquarters of the 1st Assault Detachment;

6 right? Is that right?

7 A. I went to briefings with Mr. Mrksic where we were given operative

8 assignments. Major Tesic was there with me. At the headquarters of the

9 1st Assault Detachment, it was us who gave out assignments to company

10 commanders.

11 Q. Did you receive any assignments from Mr. Mrksic, any orders?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you receive these orders orally or in a written form?

14 A. All the orders were transmitted orally.

15 Q. Did you ever see a single order signed by Mr. Mrksic, a written

16 order, in relation to the Petrova Gora TO unit?

17 A. I don't remember, but I don't think so.

18 Q. These reports that you submitted, the briefings, were these

19 written reports or did you report orally?

20 A. The reports were oral. However, at these briefings, I had my

21 notebook which I made notes in, and then I would pass these notes on to

22 the company commanders orally.

23 Q. Orders that you got from the commander of the 1st Assault

24 Detachment, Major Tesic, were those written or oral?

25 A. The headquarters was in the same house, the headquarters of the

Page 11948

1 1st Assault Detachment and the headquarters of the Petrova Gora TO unit.

2 So we were working closely together and we talked a lot.

3 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one thing about the

4 transcript. Page 5 -- all right, okay, there's been a correction. My

5 apologies.

6 Q. The orders which you handed out to your company commanders, did

7 you do that orally or did you submit written orders?

8 A. During combat operations, things were happening at such a mad

9 pace, there was simply no time for orders to be written down. So orders

10 were passed on orally or over radio equipment.

11 Q. After briefings at the operations group headquarters and after

12 receiving your assignments, which you later passed on to the commander of

13 the 1st Assault Detachment, did you have any observations to make,

14 although that's no military term, about these orders that you received;

15 something about possibly amending these orders, supplementing these

16 orders, reporting to your superior about amendments or revisions to

17 orders, that sort of thing?

18 A. There were no amendments, no revisions. On the 3rd, I had to

19 stretch the entire Petrova Gora detachment along the line that was twice

20 the length of the previous one, all the way up to Leva Supoderica. But I

21 did not raise any objections. I believe that to be normal, as Mr. Mrksic

22 had said. The TO men were familiar with the area and they should be in

23 front of the guards battalion. They knew every house, every yard, and I

24 understood that it was necessary for them to act as our scouts.

25 Q. Mr. Jaksic, if you could just please slow down slightly for the

Page 11949

1 benefit of the record.

2 Can we then agree that what seems to follow from this is that Mr.

3 Mrksic had accurate knowledge of the situation on the ground, that his

4 orders were proper and that he enjoyed a great deal of authority as a

5 commanding officer?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Let us now move on to an issue that is of great interest to us.

8 I'm talking about the government meeting in Vukovar on the 20th of

9 November. You did hint at that yesterday, didn't you?

10 I want to know when you got to Velepromet in Vukovar on that day,

11 the 20th of November, 1991.

12 A. I was in Vukovar throughout. I would shuttle between the

13 headquarters, Velepromet, and the operations group south command. I was

14 going back and forth between these three places all the time.

15 Q. If I understood you correctly yesterday, you had no official post

16 at the time. Right?

17 A. No, not at the time. I wasn't involved in the attack on Milovo

18 Brdo. On the 17th of November, I attended a meeting at which decisions

19 were taken as to what would be done after the liberation of Vukovar, which

20 steps would be taken; what to do with the TO units later on. The idea was

21 to discuss -- to have the police man check-points to control the flow of

22 citizens. Vukovar was all in ruins and Velepromet was still standing. So

23 all the towns' institutions were to be based there, since that

24 neighbourhood was less destroyed than others.

25 We had to set up a court. We had to set up medical facilities.

Page 11950

1 We had to help mend the Vuteks facilities, that sort of thing.

2 Q. Do you remember how it was that you were informed about the

3 arrival of representatives of the SAO Krajina cabinet, Slavonia, Baranja,

4 and western Srem? How did you know they would be arriving on that day?

5 A. I had not been informed. It was just by chance that I met Milos

6 Vojinovic Dragan, and he was the one who told me that the cabinet members

7 would be, would be arriving with Goran Hadzic.

8 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] There is an error in the

9 transcript, page 8, line 2. It says "Sljivancanin" and it should read

10 "Vojinovic".

11 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jaksic, what time it was when you eventually

12 reached Velepromet? And did your meeting with Vojinovic, the chance

13 meeting that you had, occur in Velepromet?

14 A. That was as they were arriving. We met there at about noon, I'd

15 say.

16 Q. Before you went to see Mr. Mrksic, which is something we'll

17 discuss later on, in addition to Mr. Vojinovic, did you discuss this issue

18 with any other member of the cabinet?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Do you remember what time it was when you went to see Mr. Mrksic?

21 By this time, you remember that it was about noon that you spoke to Mr.

22 Vojinovic.

23 A. Just after. Just after this conversation. I'm not sure if I met

24 Goran again later on. I'm not sure if that was before or after. But I

25 went to see Mr. Mrksic to tell him about this and to inform him of these

Page 11951

1 various positions.

2 Q. When did you return to Velepromet, having visited Mr. Mrksic?

3 A. I didn't stay with Mr. Mrksic for too long. I just told him about

4 this. He was quite determined. He said there was no way the civilians

5 could be left to the TO. And I simply went straight back to tell them

6 about Mr. Mrksic's position.

7 Q. What I'm asking is: You remember it was at about noon that you

8 spoke to Vojinovic. Can you tell me how much later you returned to

9 Velepromet?

10 A. I said at about noon, give or take an hour or two. It is very

11 difficult to be specific. This was, after all, 15 years ago. I can

12 hardly remember what I had for lunch yesterday. There.

13 Q. This meeting at Velepromet, did it begin after you had already

14 returned from seeing Mr. Mrksic?

15 A. I don't remember exactly. One thing I do know is I didn't attend

16 the entire meeting, and I wasn't there for the opening statements.

17 Q. Do you know who opened the meeting? When you say you weren't

18 there for the meeting's opening, that implies that you actually do know

19 that there was an opening speech that was made. Right?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Do you know how long the meeting took, the cabinet meeting?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you stay through the entire meeting, until the very end?

24 A. I don't remember.

25 Q. The footage that Mr. Mrksic's Defence showed you yesterday, if you

Page 11952

1 can remember some of the frames, the atmosphere that prevailed at the

2 meeting and everything, was this footage taken after the meeting or before

3 the meeting?

4 A. This was before the meeting, when Goran Hadzic and Dokmanovic and

5 the delegation of the Jagodina municipality arrived, and they

6 congratulated us on liberating Vukovar.

7 Q. What was your official capacity at that meeting? Why were you

8 there, since you say that they congratulated you on liberating Vukovar?

9 A. Not just me, all the people of Vukovar, all the citizens present

10 there. And I happened to be there, too.

11 Q. My question was: What was your official capacity, the capacity

12 in which you attended that meeting, since we know that you did not have an

13 official position at the time. You had withdrawn from the army, from

14 politics. You were no longer into that. So I want to know: What was the

15 official reason for you being there?

16 A. Dokmanovic and Goran Hadzic knew exactly what I had done and where

17 I had been, and for as long as I had an official capacity, we would meet.

18 And they appreciated my work, so that was the only reason that I had been

19 invited.

20 Q. About this meeting, you say you don't remember who opened the

21 meeting, but you know that someone did. Did anyone in particular chair

22 the meeting? Was there a chairman? Is this something you remember?

23 A. I said I wasn't there at the opening speech. I didn't know what

24 the subject was. I didn't know what they were going to talk about, so

25 that's why I can't remember.

Page 11953

1 Q. Do you remember whether Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, attended that

2 meeting?

3 A. Given that he was there, I believe, Serb, but I can't remember.

4 Q. You can't remember him being in the hall?

5 A. I saw footage that showed him with Goran, but I can't remember

6 exactly.

7 Q. Do you know in what capacity Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was

8 present in Velopromet on that day with Goran Hadzic?

9 A. He was accompanying Mr. Hadzic.

10 Q. A minute ago you said that you had contact with Hadzic while you

11 held the position that you held. Was Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, always

12 with Mr. Hadzic when you met him and saw him?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Were you surprised to see Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, at the

15 meeting and in Velepromet on the 20th of November?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Tell me why you weren't surprised, please.

18 A. Arkan provided security for Mr. Badza. It was the TO of the

19 Operative Group North. I saw him there a couple of times. I wasn't

20 particularly surprised.

21 Q. Tell me who Badza is. Could you explain this for the Chamber and

22 for us. Perhaps the Prosecution doesn't know who this person is. Tell us

23 who Badza is.

24 A. We all called this person Badza; that was his nickname. Radovan

25 Stojkovic, Stajkovic, something like that. I don't know what his exact

Page 11954

1 name is. I think it was something like that.

2 Q. Mr. Jaksic, you were with him.

3 A. Yes, but I only met the commander over there.

4 Q. This person Radovan Stojkovic, Badza, what position did he hold in

5 Vukovar? You mentioned some Territorial Defence force. I'm interested in

6 knowing what position he had.

7 A. He was the commander of the Operative Group North TO, with its

8 headquarters in Erdut.

9 Q. Can you remember whether at the meeting held on the 20th of

10 November there was someone from the command of the Operative Group North

11 who was present?

12 A. I can't remember that.

13 Q. Do you remember which members of the government were present in

14 Velepromet on the 20th of November. You've seen footage. You've been

15 reminded of this.

16 A. I knew Vojinovic, Rade Leskovac, Goran Hadzic, Slavko Dokmanovic.

17 I can't remember all of the others exactly. I can't remember the names

18 and surnames. I didn't really know them before the war either, so it is

19 difficult for me to remember.

20 Q. Does the name Boris Bugunovic ring a bell?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who is Boris Bugunovic? Who was he in the government? Can you

23 remember that?

24 A. I know that Boris Bugunovic is from Negoslavci. As for the

25 position he held within the government, I couldn't say exactly.

Page 11955

1 Q. If I told you that he was the Minister of Internal Affairs, would

2 that refresh your memory?

3 A. Well, not really, because I didn't cooperate with him later. I

4 cooperated with the people who formed the unit, who were trying to find

5 facilities to establish a police station. I didn't cooperate with him.

6 Q. When you were commander of the Petrova Gora TO, did you cooperate

7 with Bugunovic during that period?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Would you see him in Vukovar?

10 A. I can't remember, but I don't think so.

11 Q. Did you see him in Daja, Negoslavci, Sid, perhaps?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you remember the circumstances under which you would see him?

14 Did you see him privately, officially? Were you assigned a task of some

15 kind when you saw him?

16 A. We just would bump into each other. We would greet each other.

17 We didn't go into lengthy discussions. We hadn't known each other before

18 the war, we hadn't socialized, so we weren't really that close.

19 Q. I will ask you this again: Do you remember this meeting which

20 everyone is interested in? Or can you remember whether the conclusions of

21 any kind were adopted at that meeting? Did the government adopt

22 conclusions of any kind at that meeting?

23 A. I remember that I spoke to Goran Hadzic and he said: "Jaksic,

24 let's move from a military administration to a civilian government in

25 Vukovar. Let's do that as soon as possible. Use your authority so that

Page 11956

1 Milos Bibic could be the president of the executive board," once this

2 government had been established. I can remember that.

3 Q. We heard that before this meeting you saw Mr. Mrksic with regard

4 to the request that you had mentioned. Did you inform Goran Hadzic about

5 the requests submitted to you, that you went to see Mrksic and you

6 informed him Goran Hadzic about the results of the conversation with

7 Mrksic?

8 A. I can't remember that.

9 Q. When you saw Mr. Mrksic, was anyone else present while you had

10 this conversation that concerned the prisoners?

11 A. There is always some of the officers in the command. I can't

12 remember exactly who was there, though. I was only interested in Mr.

13 Mrksic. I had direct contact with him. If he can remember who was there,

14 he can say so.

15 Q. Did you tell Colonel Mrksic about the identity of the person who

16 had sent you there to discuss this subject?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you tell Mr. Mrksic, or did you perhaps come to such a

19 conclusion on the basis of your conversation with him, did you tell him

20 that in Vukovar, in Velepromet, there were members of the government of

21 the SAO Western Slavonia?

22 A. I can't remember.

23 Q. When speaking to Mr. Bugunovic [as interpreted], did you come to

24 the conclusion that you should inform members of the government about your

25 conversation with Mr. Mrksic, about the outcome of your conversation with

Page 11957

1 Mr. Mrksic, the members of the government who were present in Vukovar?

2 MR. WEINER: I would object, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

4 MR. WEINER: There is no evidence of him speaking to Mr. Bugunovic

5 at that meeting. The question is: "When speaking to Mr. Bugunovic, did

6 you come to the conclusion that you should inform members ..." There was

7 no evidence that I am aware of that he spoke with Mr. Bugunovic at that

8 meeting. In fact, I believe he said he didn't see him at that meeting.

9 JUDGE PARKER: He certainly didn't remember him.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I wanted to

11 intervene. I was preempted. There is an error in the transcript. It

12 should say Vojinovic, not Bugunovic. This translation error, this

13 interpretation error, has provoked such a reaction on the part of the

14 Prosecution. I didn't mention Bugunovic.

15 JUDGE PARKER: You're entirely innocent. Very well.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. After Mr. Mrksic had returned, I've already asked you whether you

18 spoke to Mr. Hadzic about this. Did you tell anyone else, apart from

19 Vojinovic, and I'm referring to the members of the government who were

20 present, did you tell anyone else about the outcome of your conversation

21 with Mr. Mrksic?

22 A. If Vojinovic is a member of the government, and if I informed him

23 of this, it's as if I had informed the government. It wasn't necessary to

24 inform anyone else.

25 Q. Can you remember how Mr. Vojinovic reacted when you informed him

Page 11958

1 of the outcome of your conversation with Mr. Mrksic?

2 A. Quite normally.

3 Q. How did you react when Mr. Mrksic told you that what you wanted

4 was not possible?

5 A. Quite normally, too.

6 Q. You can't remember the contents of the meeting, the conclusions,

7 the course that the session followed. But I would like to know whether

8 you can remember whether this subject was mentioned at the session of the

9 government, the subject of POWs.

10 A. I can't remember the details, but I believe that there was

11 something, that there was some tension in the army as far as the subject

12 of prisoners is concerned. But I can't remember exactly.

13 Q. This tension with regard to the army that you have mentioned, do

14 you know what it consisted of, what the source was?

15 A. I can't remember the details exactly.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Just an intervention with regard

17 to a bad interpretation. Page 16, line 7, it says that the tension is

18 within the army, but the witness said that the tension was exerted on the

19 army, which is quite different. If necessary, I will try to clarify what

20 is at stake with the witness.

21 Q. Mr. Jaksic, explain something for all of us here: Pressure

22 exerted on the army, what does this mean exactly? Tension against the

23 army, what does this mean exactly?

24 A. This was to make the military administration transform into a

25 civilian government, and in part it had to do with the prisoners. I can't

Page 11959

1 remember all the details.

2 Q. So this pressure exerted on the army, this tension on the army,

3 with regard to the POWs, can you remember any of the details? Can you

4 explain to us what was at stake? Who was exerting pressure on whom, and

5 for what reasons?

6 A. I can't remember who was exerting pressure, but it was all within

7 that context. They wanted to put criminals in Krajina on trial so that

8 they wouldn't cross over.

9 Q. Do you remember who participated in the discussions at that

10 session, at that meeting that the government held?

11 A. I was there very briefly. It wasn't my duty. I wasn't obliged to

12 attend, so I really wasn't trying to remember the details. This happened

13 15 years ago.

14 Q. You say that you were there briefly. Can you remember how much

15 time you spent, in total, at the government session? Does the name Bogdan

16 Mujic Vujic mean anything to you -- Bogdan Vujic?

17 A. I didn't meet him. I think he's some official, someone from the

18 security organ, but I never met him.

19 Q. If I showed a photograph to you taken from the film that we saw

20 yesterday --?

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] With the leave of the Trial

22 Chamber, if we could show this photograph which has been taken from that

23 film, from that footage.

24 Q. Perhaps that would refresh your memory. Can we have a look at

25 that photograph. That's part of Exhibit 269.

Page 11960

1 A. Yes. I've never had any contact with this person, nor have I ever

2 spoken to him. I can't remember this person.

3 Q. Mr. Jaksic, I never claimed that you had had contact with him.

4 A. It's very difficult, because everyone was in uniform. It's

5 difficult to recognise people in uniform; they all look the same.

6 Q. My question was whether you can remember having seen this person

7 at the government session.

8 A. No, I can't remember because I didn't know him, and as a result I

9 didn't remember.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] The person in the photograph is

11 Mr. Bogdan Vujic. This is Exhibit 269. It concerns the events of the

12 20th of November, 1991, at 1405 hours. With the leave of the Trial

13 Chamber, could this photograph be admitted into evidence?


15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this photograph will be Exhibit 771.

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Jaksic, could we agree that after you had spoken to Mr.

18 Vojinovic about the subject that you spoke about, you then went to see Mr.

19 Mrksic with your request because, in your opinion, given everything that

20 you knew about Mr. Mrksic and given the fact that he had the position that

21 he had, he was the person who had the authority to grant your request.

22 A. Mr. Mrksic was the immediate superior; that was my belief. As to

23 whether he was competent, whether he had such authority, I didn't think

24 about that.

25 Q. Why did you go to see Mr. Mrksic if you believed that he had no

Page 11961

1 such authority? Or did you go to see him because you thought he had such

2 authority?

3 A. Well, you're playing with words. I contacted the immediate

4 superior. There is a hierarchy within the army.

5 Q. If you have a reserve captain, he finished an officer school in

6 Bilaca, and if Mr. Mrksic told you that this wasn't possible, do you know

7 who Mr. Mrksic's superior was?

8 A. I didn't try to find anything out about the subordination. I

9 assumed that it was the General Staff, but I really wasn't interested in

10 the structure and the hierarchy.

11 Q. Sir, Mr. Mrksic was essential for you, given the situation in the

12 field, and that is why you contacted him; yes or no?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. After that session ended, can you remember where you

15 went? Did you go somewhere with Goran Hadzic, if I remember what you said

16 correctly yesterday?

17 A. I then went to Petrova Gora with Goran Hadzic. Behind his vehicle

18 there was Slavko Dokmanovic with his group. Slavko Dokmanovic.

19 By the clinic, the turning for Petrova Gora, there was automatic

20 fire opened up from a number of weapons. As I'm used to that, naturally

21 we continued.

22 Mr. Dokmanovic's vehicle almost ended up in a ditch, perhaps

23 because they were afraid. It stopped. We headed on, continued towards

24 Petrova Gora, then I noticed that Dokmanovic didn't follow us. We went to

25 Petrova Gora, walked around Petrova Gora, saw the people. It was late in

Page 11962

1 the afternoon. And that's what happened.

2 Q. Do you remember whether, at the end of this meeting, Mr. Hadzic

3 gave an interview in the yard of Velepromet? Did he give an interview for

4 some TV station?

5 A. In the footage, in the photograph, it was possible to see him

6 giving an interview.

7 Q. Could you see Mr. Hadzic giving any interviews on television? Did

8 you ever see him doing that? He was the prime minister. You were close

9 to him.

10 A. I remember watching quite a lot of interviews, but I can't

11 remember the details. I wasn't interested in them.

12 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have an exhibit

13 marked for identification; 576 is the number of the exhibit. Could we see

14 it, please.

15 The transcripts of the interview, for the B/C/S version of the

16 transcript, the number is 3D000214; the English version is 3D000215.

17 Could we see the English version on the screen for the Trial Chamber, and

18 could we see this interview.

19 Q. Mr. Jaksic, please follow the interview. Listen to what Mr.

20 Hadzic says, and then I will have a number of questions for you, if you

21 can be of any assistance.

22 A. Very well.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm not sure if you

25 were able to follow the transcript of the interview in English, or not.

Page 11963

1 JUDGE PARKER: "No" is the short answer.

2 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an exhibit

3 in the Dokmanovic trial, 205, Exhibit 205 in the Dokmanovic trial, and the

4 relevant transcripts are all available. We shall be submitting extra

5 copies to you during the break, if necessary.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Just carry on, Mr. Bulatovic.

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Jaksic, have you seen this interview by Mr. Hadzic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you remember when you first saw this interview in relation to

11 the government meeting that I'm talking about?

12 A. I thought you were asking me about now.

13 Q. I know that you now have --

14 A. You can see it is getting dark here. Petrova Gora and Vukovar had

15 no electricity. We didn't have electricity, we didn't have TV, we had

16 nothing. How could I possibly have seen it at the time. This interview

17 was given in Sid that afternoon. But we certainly weren't able to follow

18 these things.

19 Q. Have you ever seen this interview, this footage before?

20 A. No, not until today.

21 Q. You did see a video yesterday with Mr. Hadzic, and now you see him

22 again. Was this his physical appearance on the 20th of November?

23 A. He wore a uniform back then, and the same applies to this

24 footage. He has this black closely-cropped beard, and the cap. So

25 nothing changed in that respect.

Page 11964

1 Q. You've heard this interview now, haven't you? You see that it

2 tallies with the reason that you went to see Mr. Mrksic for, in order to

3 establish a judiciary, in order to establish judicial bodies and proper

4 authorities, that sort of thing.

5 Mr. Jaksic, can we agree that the issue of POWs was discussed at

6 the government meeting, and how conclusions were reached that Mr. Hadzic

7 addressed in this interview; isn't that a fact?

8 A. I remember there were tensions about the army, but I don't

9 remember any details, because it was, after all, a very long time ago.

10 Q. Let me try to phrase it this way: Do you think Mr. Hadzic would

11 really have said this for the record had it not been established

12 previously at the government meeting, and knowing what Mr. Hadzic was

13 like?

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic -- I'm sorry, Mr. Weiner, I was

15 raising an objection.

16 MR. WEINER: I will defer to the Court, then.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It's pure conjecture. Yes.

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek that the

19 Hadzic interview be admitted into evidence. It was already exhibited in

20 the Dokmanovic trial, so I expect no particular opposition from the OTP on

21 that count. And the same applies to the relevant transcript, which we

22 shall be submitting copies of during the next break. But copies are

23 available on e-court.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

25 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could this matter be -- could be left

Page 11965

1 pending until after the break until we get a chance to review the

2 transcripts and see what exactly was said?

3 JUDGE PARKER: For the moment, as I understand it, we have the

4 film marked for identification only and we have no transcript.

5 MR. WEINER: That's correct. But we should receive it sometime

6 during the break, hopefully.


8 The issue will be held for a while, Mr. Bulatovic. Thank you.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Jaksic, if I remember correctly yesterday, you said that

11 Velepromet was the TO headquarters; right?

12 A. Yes. The staff, not the headquarters, that's what I said. For

13 mobilisation purposes; the archive was there.

14 Q. Does the name of Marko Crevar mean anything to you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What about Ljubenko Stojanovic?

17 A. Yes, that rings a bell.

18 Q. Who was this person?

19 A. He was commander of the protection platoon securing Velepromet,

20 the Trend factory, the brick factory, the winery, and all the other

21 facilities that had been liberated.

22 Q. You probably mentioned a person named me Milan Bibic or Rajko

23 Bibic in your testimony, didn't you? Correct me if I'm wrong, sir.

24 A. Yes. Rajko.

25 Q. What about the name of Milan Bibic? Does that ring a bell?

Page 11966

1 A. Milos Bibic might, not Milan.

2 Q. This Bibic, and I may have been misinformed about the name, does

3 he have anything to do with the Negoslavci [Realtime transcript read in

4 error "Yugoslav"] TO?

5 A. Yes. He's a reserve officer, too.

6 Q. What was your relationship with him?

7 MR. VASIC: [Interpretation] There is a correction for the

8 transcript. I think it is quite material. On page 23, line 22, we have

9 Yugoslav TO, whereas the reference was to the Negoslavci TO.

10 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank my learned friend for this

11 intervention. That's page 23, line 22, it should read "Negoslavci TO",

12 not "Yugoslav TO".

13 Q. Mr. Jaksic I asked you about your relationship with Milos Bibic.

14 A. We used to do staff drills together before the war, and that's

15 where we met.

16 Q. But I asked you about your relationship. How was your

17 relationship? Good? Bad?

18 A. It was good.

19 Q. You mentioned Mile Uzelac as the man who, together with Slobodan

20 Grahovac, had arrived from Sid with you to set up the TO units. How come

21 you knew Mile Uzelac? And what was your relationship?

22 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, another

23 intervention. Page 24, line 12, it should Mile Uzelac. I have no idea

24 what this is supposed to be, what I see on the transcript.

25 A. Milo Uzelac was a teacher of mine in secondary school, a math

Page 11967

1 teacher for about a year, and later on he was the Chief of Staff of the

2 Vukovar municipality TO.

3 Q. And your relationship?

4 A. Good.

5 Q. You mentioned Darko Fot in your evidence, didn't you? Darko Fot,

6 did he occupy a position in Vukovar's TO staff? Is this something you

7 remember?

8 A. After the war but not during the war.

9 Q. Which specific position, his position in the TO after the war?

10 A. Miroljub Vujevic was a commander with him at the staff, but I

11 don't know exactly what he was doing. I had switched over to traffic by

12 this time.

13 Q. Let us go a step back, sir. It is my mistake, really. Was the

14 then TO commander, Mr. Miroljub Vujevic, at the government meeting that we

15 spoke about?

16 A. I don't remember.

17 Q. Speaking of Darko Fot, do you know who appointed him to any

18 position at all within the TO staff?

19 A. I didn't know about what went on later.

20 Q. Let me go back to another question. It's about your removal. I

21 heard yesterday that Mr. Sljivancanin told you about the decision to

22 replace you at the headquarters of the 1st Assault Detachment; right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Who else was there when he told you about this?

25 A. Miroljub, myself, and Major Tesic.

Page 11968

1 Q. You're a reserve officer, aren't you? You completed an elite

2 college for reserve officers, didn't you? Orders removing an officer from

3 a position of command, is this something that is normally just shared

4 orally like that, or is this something that needs to be written down?

5 A. In wartime, orders, be they oral, be they written, all carry the

6 same weight and all have the same importance.

7 Q. Did you seek any sort of explanation from Mr. Sljivancanin when he

8 told you about this, or perhaps an explanation from Mr. Tesic, or perhaps

9 from Mr. Mrksic? Was any sort of explanation provided to you as to why

10 you were no longer allowed to keep that position?

11 A. They stayed on in Vukovar for about a month, a month and a half.

12 I had been in Vukovar for over one and a half years. By this time, with

13 all the tension and all the pressure, I was worn out and tired. I just

14 wanted to go back to my peaceful life, I wanted to go back to my business,

15 I wanted to go back to being a family man, and I did not wish to remain a

16 soldier.

17 Q. You had been suffering a lot under all the pressure and tension

18 for a long time. You were fed up and you wanted out. So this was a

19 convenient way out for you.

20 Before Mr. Sljivancanin informed you of this, had you previously

21 made any complaints to anyone? Had you told anyone about being fed up and

22 about wanting to leave?

23 A. Mr. Mrksic was at the Operation Staff. Mr. Sljivancanin spent all

24 of his time with his unit up and about. The commander and the security

25 organ had the power.

Page 11969

1 Q. Mr. Jaksic, my question was: Did you ever complain to anyone that

2 you were fed up with everything and that you just wanted out?

3 A. No, I didn't.

4 Q. You mentioned something that you described as the Vietnam syndrome

5 yesterday. You said you began to feel this develop. How did that reflect

6 on the way you carried out these assignments? How did it start to show,

7 in your case?

8 A. I felt it right at the beginning, when the Guards Brigade first

9 came in. Those lads who were there for 10 or 15 minutes, they just passed

10 outside the command briefly, but you immediately became very close with

11 them, as though they were family. Several hours later, they come back in

12 body bags or maimed, back from the front line. It is a horrible thing.

13 Once you've seen all of that - your neighbours, your friends, your

14 fellow soldiers getting maimed or killed - it all comes back to you after

15 a while and you begin to recede, you begin to withdraw. It does work that

16 way and it does affect your mental state. I lost many people from my

17 company. I lost many of my relatives. I lost many of my family. So it

18 all comes to a head at the end and it simply affects you in a bad way.

19 Q. Isn't it exactly what you are now talking about that affects the

20 quality of your command? Wouldn't be it normal for something like that to

21 affect the quality of one's command?

22 A. The worst tensions were at staff meetings in Ralik and

23 Velepromet. You can't do two things at the same time. If you're over at

24 the staff, it's your command that suffers, and vice versa.

25 In wartime conditions, it was the commander that took care of

Page 11970

1 everything, and everything had to be done quickly. Civilian life,

2 military life, the economy, everything just had to be dealt with swiftly,

3 and very soon the exertion became too much. If I'd only had to deal with

4 one thing, maybe I could have coped, but they wanted me everywhere. The

5 villages, the TO, the Vukovar people, those evacuating and the

6 mobilisation, if you add all of that up, it was getting too much for me.

7 And if it hadn't been like that, it would have been far easier.

8 Q. Why didn't you ask for them to replace you? Why didn't you

9 contact Mrksic, Mr. Tesic, and say, "I can't carry on"?

10 A. It would have been logical for Commander Mrksic to ask me to come

11 see him and to speak to me. However, there were other matters at stake.

12 Mr. Sljivancanin contacted Miroljub immediately. It was the Montenegrin

13 connection, and they were in contact from the very beginning. And from

14 the very beginning, he had some sort of negative feeling towards others.

15 With the Brcanska Brigade I cooperated well. If he had said, "Go to

16 Dunav," if he had said, "Go to Dunav," even if I couldn't swim, I would

17 have gone. But Sljivancanin was arrogant and there was no particular form

18 of cooperation.

19 Q. Mr. Jaksic, do you know that a written order was issued to relieve

20 you as commander of the TO?

21 A. I didn't receive it.

22 Q. Do you know that there's a written order about appointing Darko

23 Fot to a position in the TO staff?

24 A. No. I immediately moved over to the traffic organisation.

25 Q. Mr. Jaksic, were you the subject of processing by the security

Page 11971

1 organ because it was thought that you were involved in smuggling cars,

2 weapons, et cetera? Were you ever the subject of such investigations?

3 I'm only interested in you saying "yes" or "no".

4 A. That's what hurt me the most, as an honest man, because the acts

5 of others were attributed to me. Those who were involved in those acts --

6 well, we soon came to see who had earned money, who had made a lot of

7 money. After the war, I had lost ten times as much as they had gained.

8 You can see what kind of processing was involved, what sort of

9 investigations were involved. When I told the chief of the SUP that, I

10 asked him: Is it possible for something like this to have been told to an

11 honest man? If I had had money in the bank, it could have been checked.

12 I was driving a Yugo vehicle. It was a Serb's vehicle and I

13 returned it to him. I didn't have any profit from the war. I didn't have

14 profit of any kind. I was poorer than I had been. This was Mr.

15 Sljivancanin's problem, in that criminals were appointed and honourable

16 men were dismissed. That's a huge error. That's why he's here today.

17 Q. Mr. Jaksic, do you know that Boro Bugunovic had been investigated

18 in this way?

19 A. I wasn't involved in the security issues involved in the command.

20 Q. Do you know that there is information, according to which Boro

21 Bugunovic sold weapons to local people for a price between 800 and 1.000

22 German marks? Have you heard anything of this kind?

23 A. I bought a pistol for 700 and it wasn't even totally functional,

24 but not from him.

25 Q. Do you know that there is information, according to which, Mile

Page 11972

1 Uzenac was removing evidence and that's why it wasn't possible to mobilise

2 staff, the TO? There was such evidence in the security administration.

3 A. As far as I know, the state appointed him and brought him in to

4 form a staff.

5 Q. Mr. Jaksic, do you know that you are the first person who says

6 that Vukasinovic -- who says he saw Vukasinovic at the government

7 session. Many people have been heard.

8 A. I saw him for sure in Velepromet.

9 Q. How many times did you give statements with regard to the events

10 we are discussing here?

11 A. Twice, I think.

12 Q. My colleague, Borovic, asked you whether you had spoken to

13 investigators from The Hague.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you remember when you spoke to them, and where?

16 A. I was in Vukovar at the time they came to my house. It was

17 related to the Dokmanovic case.

18 Q. Can you remember how many people spoke to you?

19 A. There was only the investigator, the interpreter and myself.

20 Q. Was a statement compiled that concerned your interview?

21 A. I can't remember. That was immediately after the war. It was a

22 long time ago. I hadn't moved over to the other area.

23 Q. Can you try and remember the year, at least, when this took

24 place?

25 A. Well, it was before 1998.

Page 11973

1 Q. Were you shown a statement that had been drafted on the basis of

2 your interview?

3 A. It was a long time ago. I think there was such a statement, but I

4 can't remember exactly. It concerned the Dokmanovic case.

5 Q. Did you sign a statement of any kind, a statement that reflected

6 the subjects you had discussed?

7 A. Well, if I did sign such a statement, in that case I read the

8 statement.

9 Q. My question is: Do you remember this?

10 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago.

11 Q. Yesterday you said that you saw Mr. Sljivancanin at the government

12 session, and you said you were there very briefly. Tell me: Where did

13 you see him, and what was he doing at the government session?

14 A. He was with Vukasinovic. He was standing on the side when I saw

15 him in the hall, when I saw him there.

16 Q. How long was he there, in your opinion?

17 A. Sir, that was 15 years ago. I can't remember all the details. I

18 don't know what sort of a belt he was wearing.

19 Q. Just a minute, Your Honours.

20 Mr. Jaksic, I can conclude something freely without insulting

21 you. The Chamber is impartial. I won't say that you're lying, but I will

22 say that you are not speaking the truth when you say that you could have

23 seen Sljivancanin and Vukasinovic at the government session at the time

24 that you are referring to, since there is evidence that shows that they

25 were somewhere else at that time. Your testimony today, what you have

Page 11974

1 said now at the end, is the result of your personal animosity that you

2 bear against Mr. Sljivancanin, because you and your friends Milos Bibic,

3 Boro Bugunovic, and Mile Uzenac were the subject of security and

4 intelligence control, and you imagined that Mr. Sljivancanin was behind

5 all of this.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your

7 Honours. I have no further questions, but I would like to hear your


9 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, there is one thing of putting a case to

12 a witness. That was a speech.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner.

14 Do you have any comments on that, Mr. Jaksic, on what Mr.

15 Bulatovic has just put to you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is the gentleman's

17 position and opinion. If that had been the case, five or six witnesses

18 wouldn't have confirmed what I have said. I didn't have any contact with

19 these witnesses. I didn't speak to any of these witnesses about that

20 subject. I didn't prepare for this in any way.

21 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

22 questions. I don't know how it is that he knows what these witnesses

23 said.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what you said. I heard it

25 from you.

Page 11975

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.

2 Mr. Weiner.

3 Cross-examination by Mr. Weiner:

4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jaksic. My name is Philip Weiner and I'm going

5 to be asking you --

6 A. Good morning.

7 Q. -- I'm going to be asking you some questions on behalf of the

8 Office of the Prosecutor, okay?

9 Sir, we were just talking about Major Sljivancanin, and you know

10 that he served as the security chief for the Operations Group South and

11 the Guards Motorised Brigade; isn't that correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And, sir, you indicated in your testimony in Belgrade that he was

14 in charge in the field or in the war operative zone. Do you recall

15 testifying in the Belgrade court to that?

16 A. Mr. Sljivancanin was in the field and he was in the position of

17 the 1st -- the 1st Detachment.

18 Q. But you said, sir, that you felt that he was in charge in the

19 field, that he would issue orders, that you obeyed his orders. Isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. Mr. Sljivancanin was with Milivoje Bugunovic, in personal

22 contact. I wasn't aware of that, but he personally cooperated with him.

23 And he carried out operations on Milovo Brdo. Ask him who the Petrova

24 Gora detachment was, the two companies, whether he was in charge of them,

25 if he relieved me of my duties.

Page 11976

1 Q. In the Belgrade court, you said that you considered Major

2 Sljivancanin as your superior. Do you recall that?

3 A. That's how he acted.

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

6 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] -- if Mr. Weiner is talking about

7 this witness's testimony from the Belgrade trial, could he provide us with

8 the reference so that we can see where the relevant passage is.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters are having

10 a lot of trouble hearing Defence counsel.


12 Q. On page 81 of your testimony in the Belgrade court, you said:

13 "Since Sljivancanin was the Chief of Security of the Vukovar

14 brigade, he was personally in charge of the war operative zone."

15 Do you recall that testimony, sir?

16 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Bulatovic.

18 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, in the B/C/S version

19 of the transcript which we have, you can't find this passage. Could we

20 have the reference for the B/C/S version?

21 MR. WEINER: Sure. That is on page 0299-4638; and the ERN number,

22 02994638, at the bottom.

23 Q. You testified, sir. Do you recall that testimony, since -- do you

24 recall that, sir, testifying to that?

25 A. That's possible.

Page 11977

1 Q. Now, if you go to page -- in the Belgrade transcript, 97, and I

2 will have the cite for you in a second, sir. Page 97, in the B/C/S it is

3 02994650.

4 You were asked about who your immediate superior was, and your

5 answer is:

6 "My immediate superior? Well, it depends. In the field it was

7 Sljivancanin. Mrksic was his superior in the command. I attended

8 meetings with Mrksic, although Sljivancanin was there as well, as well as

9 others."

10 Is that true, sir?

11 A. Partially.

12 Q. Well, what is true? Did you consider Sljivancanin your immediate

13 superior in the field, as you testified?

14 A. I never considered Sljivancanin to be my immediate superior, but,

15 through his acts, he gave this impression.

16 Q. Well, let's continue down on that same page.

17 "Whose orders did you obey?"

18 Your answer on that same page in B/C/S:

19 "Mrksic's ones. Whatever has been agreed upon at the Operation

20 Staff, Mrksic was the unquestioned authority, while Sljivancanin was, too,

21 at that time in the field. It depended upon the situation."

22 And you said:

23 "Sljivancanin can also ..." and that statement ends there.

24 Was that your testimony, and is that true?

25 A. Correct.

Page 11978

1 Q. Now, if you go to the next page, page 98, you state -- that's the

2 same page in B/C/S, page 98, you state that:

3 "Sljivancanin was the one who could issue orders directly."

4 That's right at the end of page 02994650, if you look at the B/C/S

5 and those ERN numbers. You testified that Sljivancanin was the one who

6 could issue orders directly. Is that true?

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

9 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't know where

10 Mr. Weiner found this in the transcript, where it says that this witness

11 said that Sljivancanin could directly issue orders. In the transcript, in

12 the part of the transcript mentioned by Mr. Weiner, you can find nothing

13 of that kind. And this is the original B/C/S transcript.

14 MR. WEINER: It's at the bottom of the page 02994650, which is the

15 seventy-first page of the statement in B/C/S. I have it highlighted right

16 here. Right at the bottom you can see my highlighting.

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can see the part of

18 the text marked by Mr. Weiner, but could the exact text be read out in

19 that case? Or Mr. Weiner should provide a copy of the B/C/S transcript so

20 that the witness can read it out, so that he can read out what he said in

21 front of the Belgrade court. The date of the transcript is the 28th of

22 April, 2004.

23 MR. WEINER: He has it right in front of him.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page? Could

25 you carry on?

Page 11979


2 Q. After that answer which you gave, Sljivancanin was -- I will give

3 you the full answer:

4 "Sljivancanin, Mrksic, was never at the battalion command here,

5 but Sljivancanin was often there. Mrksic was in Negoslavci, and during

6 the day, if there was room for an operations meeting to take place, we had

7 it. If not, then in the field, during operations. Sljivancanin was the

8 one who could issue orders directly."

9 Do you recall saying that? And is that true?

10 A. Mr. Sljivancanin -- Mrksic's orders were the main thing for me.

11 He couldn't order anything if it wasn't in accordance with Mrksic's

12 orders. But with my company commanders, he often acted without me being

13 aware of this, and he would also meddle with the command.

14 Q. But when you said "Sljivancanin was the one who could issue orders

15 directly," were you telling the truth?

16 A. Mr. Sljivancanin could issue orders. Mr. Sljivancanin -- well,

17 the battalions on the terrain were those who had authority. He could

18 issue orders with regard to the security of the task.

19 Q. But you said he was also meddling with your commanders, your own

20 company commanders. Was he telling them what to do?

21 A. I wasn't able to hear that.

22 Q. You testified, just a moment ago, that Sljivancanin was also

23 meddling with your company commanders. Was he telling them what to do?

24 A. I think that there is footage or a recording that concerns the

25 operation in the mini market. When they went to Milovo Brdo, Mr.

Page 11980

1 Sljivancanin was with them. He was there instead of myself. As to

2 whether he was in command, as to whether he was present, well, he should

3 explain the situation himself.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, I think we have reached the point where

5 we must break. We will resume at 10 minutes past and continue then.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.15 a.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

9 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, just one very short matter, before we

10 start.

11 We had the diary on its way to Belgrade today and we were setting

12 up an appointment for someone to view it tomorrow. Now we're told that

13 they would rather have it stay here and have someone examine it here. Can

14 I get some official word as to what to do with the diary?

15 JUDGE PARKER: The diary should come into the custody of the court

16 officer.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

18 JUDGE PARKER: And then parties can look at it under the

19 supervision of the court officer. That would seem to be a practical

20 arrangement, would it?

21 MR. WEINER: Yes. But it was requested to be in Belgrade for

22 tomorrow, so I'm not going to release it to Belgrade tomorrow.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood you. I thought it

24 was coming from Belgrade.

25 MR. WEINER: No. It's here at this time.

Page 11981

1 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Well, I better learn what the competing

2 interests in it are.

3 Can you help me, please, Ms. Tapuskovic?

4 MS. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. In

5 complying with your ruling on the right of the Defence to inspect this

6 diary of P002, we have been negotiating with the OTP to have this

7 inspected. Up until yesterday we believed that the diary was in

8 Belgrade. Yesterday, when we talked to the OTP, they informed us that the

9 notebook or the diary was, in fact, here in the Tribunal's very building.

10 It was for that reason that we requested to have the inspection carried

11 out here, simply in order to save money, instead of having one from each

12 of our teams sent back to Belgrade thereby incurring additional expenses.

13 In addition to this, we have agreed to have both parties' experts

14 present, which the Chamber agreed on some days ago. We shall be looking

15 at the notebook, at the diary, and then following further consultation, we

16 shall see what steps are best taken. And we'll be sure to inform the

17 Chamber in due course of any conclusions.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

19 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, just to

20 make this perfectly clear, yes, it is true that this was scheduled for the

21 following Saturday in Belgrade, an informal meeting but with the experts

22 present. Mr. Moore said, "I don't believe I can arrange for my expert to

23 be there." He was supposed to come back to us with some feedback, but he

24 hasn't spoken to us since. What my learned friend has just said, all the

25 teams can stay here and carry out the inspection. That is one thing.

Page 11982

1 The other thing, the witness himself, P002 is in Belgrade. He can

2 provide a sample of his handwriting, and it is on the basis of that that

3 an inspection can be carried out for the diary to be sent to Belgrade, and

4 for the experts to study the sample provided and the diary.

5 I just wanted to add this to what my learned friend has already

6 said.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

8 Mr. Weiner, it would appear at the moment that the diary should

9 stay here, and that you or Mr. Moore needs to discuss the time at which

10 your expert and the Defence expert would meet together and work on the

11 matter. But it will be necessary for you to secure from the witness

12 samples of his ordinary handwriting at some stage.

13 Beyond that, I don't think I can usefully add or suggest anything

14 at the moment. But above all else, it seems that any inspection needs to

15 be here rather than Belgrade.

16 MR. WEINER: That's fine. We'll maintain the diary here. Thank

17 you.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, Mr. Weiner, your

19 cross-examination.

20 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

21 Q. Good morning again, sir.

22 I have one more question on this matter. And if you would look to

23 the bottom of page 02994638, continuing into 4639 in your booklet, you

24 gave an answer in Belgrade:

25 "Since Sljivancanin was the Chief of Security of the Vukovar

Page 11983

1 Brigade, he was personally in charge of the war operative zone. Mrksic

2 was in the Operative Staff, which means the commander. He was in

3 command,"

4 And then you have:

5 "He was in the field all the time, and therefore he was kind -- a

6 kind of undeniable authority. He took decisions. His decisions were

7 indisputable. Then he said, 'Since Miroljub has proven himself to be a

8 good fighter,' and I was already affected a bit by a Vietnamese syndrome,

9 I had begun withdrawing into myself, I felt that I had difficulties in

10 communication and the like, and then he said, 'Miroljub, you will be the

11 commander of the Vukovar TO.'"

12 Do you recall that testimony, sir, and do you recall that

13 situation? Do you recall that?

14 A. I'm not receiving any interpretation. I'm not receiving any

15 interpretation at all.

16 Q. Can you hear me now?

17 A. Now I can. Now I can.

18 Q. What I would like you to do is, if you can, look at the book in

19 front of you, at the bottom of page 02994638 into 4639. You can look at

20 it. I can read it to you. It's the last tab.

21 THE REGISTRAR: He has it on the screen.


23 Q. It is also on your screen. Your answer to a question in Belgrade

24 was:

25 "Sljivancanin was the Chief of Security of the Vukovar Brigade.

Page 11984

1 He was personally in charge of the war operative zone. Mrksic was in the

2 Operative Staff, which means the commander. He was in command, he was in

3 the field all the time, and therefore he was a kind of undeniable

4 authority. He took decisions. His decisions were indisputable. Then he

5 said, 'Since Miroljub has proven himself to be a good fighter,' and I was

6 already affected a bit by a Vietnamese syndrome, I had begun withdrawing

7 into myself, I felt that I had difficulties in communication and the like,

8 and then he said, 'Miroljub, you will be the commander of the Vukovar TO.'

9 So then I stepped out."

10 Now, do you recall that testimony and do you recall that

11 situation, sir?

12 A. I do, sir.

13 Q. Now, in that paragraph, you were speaking about both Colonel

14 Mrksic and Major Sljivancanin; isn't that correct?

15 A. Indeed.

16 Q. And it was Sljivancanin that was in the field all the time.

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And when you talk about the person who was in the field all the

19 time, you said:

20 "Therefore, he was a kind of undeniable authority. He took

21 decisions. His decisions were indisputable."

22 That's what you said about Sljivancanin. You're nodding your

23 head. Can you ...

24 A. Yes. Unchallenged in the sense of freedom of movement, coming,

25 going, security-wise, that sort of thing.

Page 11985

1 Q. And you said his decisions were indisputable. That's what you

2 said; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, it comes down to the same thing, doesn't it?

4 Q. Thank you. Now, let's --

5 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. Your

6 Honour, after he was shown a portion from his testimony, before the

7 district court in Belgrade, the witness explained what sort of decisions

8 he had in mind. The OTP now seem to be unhappy with this. They're trying

9 to rephrase the question and trying to get the witness to say something

10 which is contrary to what he originally said. And the witness specified

11 this was only about security-related decisions, about freedom of movement,

12 and he said exactly what it was that he had in mind when he used these

13 words before the district court in Belgrade.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic. I leave it to you, Mr.

15 Weiner.

16 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the record speaks for itself.

17 Q. Let's continue, sir. Let's go to that time around November

18 16/17. Recall the day that you were at the 1st Assault Detachment when

19 Sljivancanin, Tesic and Miroljub Vujevic was there. Do you recall that

20 day, the day when there was a change in your command? Just as a start, do

21 you recall that day?

22 A. I found that by chance in this notebook. On the 17th of November,

23 I was at this meeting. I was at this meeting, preparations, what and how

24 after the liberation of Vukovar. Meaning, if I was at the meeting of the

25 17th, and operations around Milovo Brdo were underway, then I wasn't

Page 11986

1 anymore because -- the TO commander of Vukovar. But something else: The

2 TO commander of Vukovar was for the town of Vukovar and the rest was

3 supposed to start functioning with all the other villages, to be in touch

4 and to establish some sort of a structure throughout the area. But

5 Sljivancanin appointed Miroljub commander of Vukovar, and he just took

6 over, without really knowing. He was now the commander of Operations

7 Group South TO and the town of Vukovar, and I just withdrew and ceased to

8 exercise any sort of duty whatsoever.

9 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time. At that meeting --

10 just one more question. I just want to get who was there. We have had

11 testimony in this Tribunal that Captain Radic was there. Do you recall

12 him being at that meeting?

13 MR. BOROVIC: Objection. Objection.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

15 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] If my learned friend could please

16 quote the relevant portion. Where did he get this from, that Captain

17 Radic was there? Who said it?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

19 MR. WEINER: P022, on day 55.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


22 Q. The question is --

23 MR. BOROVIC: Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

25 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies. I will not be

Page 11987

1 interrupting any more. Which is the date? Which particular circumstances

2 did this witness address? I'm familiar with the statement, but that's a

3 different context there, isn't it? So can the witness please have this

4 shown to him. What were the circumstances? What was the date? We can't

5 just have the name bandied about like that.

6 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I just want to ask him if he recalls --

7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic is concerned whether your reference is

8 to the same meeting, on the same date as you are putting.

9 MR. WEINER: Yes. It talks about Mr. Miroljub Vujevic was

10 appointed TO commander at the meeting.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That seems enough.


13 Q. Now, sir, do you recall - I know it's been a long time - but do

14 you recall Captain Radic being at that meeting?

15 A. I don't recall any details. But now that I am here, I see what

16 the real reasons were behind my removal at the time. I said that thing

17 about the Vietnam syndrome. That may have been true, but that didn't

18 necessarily affect my command or my staying there.

19 I now see why Mr. Radic was so cress fallen at the command and why

20 he didn't talk to me. I see why nobody worked with me or talked to me at

21 the command. It is all Mr. Sljivancanin's fault. I simply didn't believe

22 at the time that a security organ could have harassed or mistreated an

23 officer like that, and have him removed deliberately on purpose and false

24 accusations.

25 And now I think counsel for Mr. Sljivancanin has revealed to us,

Page 11988

1 finally, what the real situation was. And at the time I remember myself

2 wondering why Mr. Radic was looking at me with such scorn whenever he came

3 to the headquarters. That was on account of Mr. Sljivancanin, who failed

4 to secure everything that he was supposed to. But he was certainly very

5 good at ordering people about.

6 So this must have been the reason. If he was an operative

7 officer, then he should have been familiar with all of these. He should

8 have known the reasons. He should have known what to do. Instead, he

9 just used false information, misinformation, circulated by his -- by his

10 subordinates, whereas my conscience was always clean and I had no blemish

11 on my conscience. It's only now that I know the real reasons behind my

12 removal at the time.

13 Q. We will talk about the reasoning a little bit later, or on Monday,

14 of your removal. You will get a chance to discuss that. I just want to

15 go through the facts of the removal, which is -- very basically take you

16 through and just go through those issues. And you will have a chance to

17 discuss the basis either later today or Monday, all right?

18 So at that meeting, just briefly, Mr. Sljivancanin relieved you of

19 your command; is that correct?

20 A. Sir, that wasn't a meeting. It was the usual thing, coming to the

21 headquarters. Miroljub was there, Mr. Tesic was there, I was there. He

22 nudged him with his shoulder and said, "From now on, you are the TO

23 commander. You are the man in charge," thereby relieving me of my duty.

24 That wasn't a command meeting.

25 Q. And did you obey the order of Sljivancanin and accept the relief

Page 11989

1 -- being relieved of your command?

2 A. Sir, my information had come from the army security organs.

3 Q. Sir, sir, sir --

4 A. They had confidence in me.

5 Q. -- we will talk about that.

6 A. Let me finish.

7 Q. I need to get the basics. Did you accept -- I just need some yes

8 or no answers, and later we will get to all the reasoning, but right now,

9 just yes or no.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. Did you accept?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Did Miroljub Vujevic obey Sljivancanin's order and accept the

14 position? Did he obey the order?

15 A. He could hardly wait.

16 Q. And you never questioned Sljivancanin's authority at that time to

17 relieve you and appoint someone else?

18 A. It was only logical, because Mr. Sljivancanin and Mr. Mrksic were

19 the two direct superiors, it was only logical he would trust him more than

20 he would trust me, since we had just met for the very first time. I

21 didn't want to press this.

22 But there was another reason behind this. I had received word

23 from the army's intelligence that there were plans to have me killed. I

24 have four children, I have a family, and I simply didn't wish to ...

25 Q. We will get to that. Don't worry. We have a long time to go.

Page 11990

1 Now, when Sljivancanin relieved you and promoted Vujevic, he never

2 said that he was acting on behalf of Mr. Mrksic, did he?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Sljivancanin never said he was acting pursuant to Mrksic's orders,

5 did he?

6 A. He didn't confirm and he didn't deny.

7 Q. Finally, he never said that he was conveying anyone else's orders

8 when Sljivancanin relieved you.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, this had occurred right after Milovo Brdo was taken. So

11 would you agree, basically once Milovo Brdo was taken, the battle of

12 Vukovar was over. Isn't that correct?

13 A. That's what I said at the time. However, I have since found a

14 notebook with the date written down and the place of this meeting. That

15 was the 17th of September. And Milovo Brdo was taken on the 17th of

16 September. So prior to the 17th of September - I wasn't there when Milovo

17 Brdo was taken - I had been relieved of my duty.

18 Q. You said "17th of September". Do you mean November?

19 A. Yes. No. November, yes. Yes. November. I'm sorry.

20 Q. Now, since Milovo Brdo had been taken, all that was left was what

21 you would call a bit of mopping up, you know, bits of work here and there,

22 but the major battles was over. Isn't that correct?

23 A. Certainly. When Milovo Brdo was reached, control was established

24 over both bridges. And as far as the Danube, the Croat paramilitary

25 forces had been split up. Nikica and the downtown area, those were now

Page 11991

1 too far apart. They realised what sort of situation they were facing and

2 they called for negotiations.

3 Q. Now, at that time you hadn't -- when you were relieved, we've got

4 Milovo Brdo over, basically the battle is over. On September -- I'm

5 sorry, November 17th, you hadn't committed any disciplinary violations

6 requiring your removal.

7 A. I think not. No. Actually I'm certain.

8 Q. You're certain, okay. And you also -- you hadn't committed any

9 crimes requiring your removal?

10 A. Certainly not.

11 Q. And you hadn't disobeyed any orders requiring your removal?

12 A. Counsel has stated all the reasons, with great precision. He has

13 clarified the matter himself, why I was removed.

14 Q. We'll get to that very shortly, sir. But you hadn't disobeyed

15 any orders, correct, requiring that you should be removed?

16 A. No. However, in a situation where one feels humiliated,

17 mistreated, not esteemed as a person, well, you can imagine what one must

18 feel in that sort of situation. And that certainly was the case between

19 me and Mr. Sljivancanin.

20 Q. I understand. But if we look at it, sir, at that time the

21 battling was pretty much over. There was some mopping up, if you want to

22 call it, that had to be done, finishing. There was no practical reason to

23 remove you from that position. There was no need to dismiss you at that

24 time. Wouldn't you agree, sir?

25 A. I think you should ask Mr. Sljivancanin.

Page 11992

1 Q. But you're not aware of any reason to dismiss you, for practical

2 -- there is no practical reason to dismiss you at the time; wouldn't you

3 agree?

4 A. Precisely. No reason.

5 Q. And you know, sir, having testified in Belgrade, that your

6 successor Miroljub Vujevic was convicted for murders occurring just days

7 after your dismissal. You're aware of that.

8 A. I am.

9 Q. Now, sir, as an experienced officer - you were a reserve captain -

10 you would have not followed any orders to murder prisoners or civilians;

11 isn't that correct?

12 A. Absolutely. It is a tradition with the Serb army ever since the

13 Balkan wars, that's what our training implied, that's what the principle

14 of subordination implied. It was the Serb word of honour, and that is

15 something that one always had to live by.

16 Q. Okay. And sir, being an experienced officer, you would not have

17 ordered your subordinates or your soldiers to murder prisoners; isn't that

18 correct?

19 A. Certainly.

20 Q. Now, let's talk about Mr. Sljivancanin again. You've testified

21 that you saw him at that meeting at Velepromet.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You've also testified that you saw Mr. Vukasinovic. What was his

24 relationship or what position did he have in relation to Major

25 Sljivancanin?

Page 11993

1 A. I know that he was superior personally to the military police, a

2 superior of the military police.

3 Q. Now, sir, you've testified that you were a security organ at some

4 time after in the Republic of Srpska Krajina army, you were a security

5 organ?

6 A. No, no. It was probably misrecorded. The chief of security of

7 the brigade of Vukovar's TO, but that was before the war. That was a

8 legal unit of the Vukovar TO, the brigade. But that was back in the

9 former Yugoslavia.

10 Q. Well, you know what a security organ or a security assistant does

11 or the chief of security does, and with that knowledge of the type of work

12 that person does, wouldn't you expect the Mr. Sljivancanin or one or more

13 of his deputies to attend a meeting like the one at Velepromet? It

14 wouldn't be unusual for a person in that position to attend that meeting.

15 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

17 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] This is speculation. That's all

18 my learned friend is doing. We've all heard the witness say he didn't

19 know what was on the agenda at that particular meeting or what the meeting

20 was about. What he could or could not have expected belongs purely to the

21 realm of speculation.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, I would suggest you don't pursue that

23 line of questioning.


25 Q. But, sir, you did see Mr. Sljivancanin and his deputy Mr.

Page 11994

1 Vukasinovic at that meeting, didn't you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you --

4 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour, objection.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the room. In the room.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Bulatovic.

7 MR. BULATOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if you could please

8 draw Mr. Weiner's attention to the fact that he shouldn't misrepresent

9 evidence. The witness never said he knew Vukasinovic to be Mr.

10 Sljivancanin's deputy. He said Vukasinovic was in charge of the military

11 police.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And Sljivancanin's deputy security

13 organ, and that's what I said at the time.

14 MR. WEINER: That was his testimony yesterday, I believe.

15 Q. Now, where did you see Sljivancanin and Vukasinovic in that large

16 hall?

17 A. I can't say specifically, but where the door is. But I remember

18 them being there. I'm not sure if they were there throughout the meeting

19 or not. Or maybe they just came at the beginning and left. But they

20 certainly were in that hall when I came. I did see them.

21 Q. And were they together when you saw them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to ask you some questions in

24 relation to Colonel Mrksic. You testified in Belgrade that you took

25 orders from Mrksic and you obeyed orders from Mrksic; isn't that correct?

Page 11995

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And on page B97 of the transcript, Belgrade, you referred to him

3 as the "unquestioned authority". Was that true, in Vukovar?

4 A. A much esteemed officer, always held in high regard by all.

5 Q. Now, you testified -- or there was a situation where, in 19 --

6 sometime in 1991, I believe in the fall, you were appointed commander of

7 the Operation Group South TO in Orolik?

8 A. The TO staff.

9 Q. The TO staff south.

10 A. Orolik.

11 Q. And you were appointed by the civilian community to be the head of

12 that TO staff?

13 A. It concerned 20 villages in the south and an operative zone. And

14 the command of those villages were there because they all had units in

15 those villages. And they had a meeting - I wasn't at the meeting; I was

16 at the front line - and later I found out that they had elected me as the

17 commander of that TO staff.

18 Q. And you said Mrksic did not allow you to take that position; isn't

19 that correct?

20 A. He told me, "That's a political position. Vukovar has to be

21 liberated -- first Vukovar has to be liberated and then we can pursue

22 those policies."

23 Q. But you said Mrksic did not allow you to take that position; isn't

24 that correct?

25 A. I couldn't go to all the meetings; other people from the staff

Page 11996

1 went. I only went to Lovac on one occasion, and I think I went to Ralik

2 on one occasion. And there was a meeting on the 17th, a meeting they had

3 requested in Velepromet. I think there were those three meetings, but it

4 was over a short period of time, a one-month period.

5 Q. But you said, and I'm quoting you, on page 81, which is 02994638

6 in the B/C/S, three-quarters of the way down the page on page 81:

7 "Mrksic did not allow it."

8 And just a very simple question: Mrksic did not allow you to take

9 that position; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you followed and obeyed Mrksic's orders, isn't that correct,

12 and did not take that position?

13 A. I didn't officially take up that position, but later, at the

14 request of others, I went to a meeting in Lovac and Ralik. I informed

15 him.

16 Q. And you didn't contest Mrksic's authority to tell you not to take

17 that position.

18 A. That's why I was in the command with the Petrova Gora detachment

19 and with Tesic. I was there -- I spent more time there than in the staff.

20 Q. Yes. But the question is: You did not contest Mrksic's authority

21 to tell you to refuse the position. You didn't contest his authority.

22 A. Well, let's say that I didn't.

23 Q. Okay, thank you. Now, I would like to talk about subordination.

24 You discuss that in your statements -- in your statement of 2003 to the

25 judge at Novi Sad, and you also discussed it in your testimony in

Page 11997

1 Belgrade. And you indicated that the TO units in Vukovar were

2 subordinated to the JNA. Do you recall that?

3 A. According to the constitution of the former Yugoslavia, the TO

4 units were subordinated to the JNA. If the units didn't act independently

5 in the field and if they were a part of the JNA, since the JNA was more

6 equipped and more professional, if that was the case, it's a principle

7 that these units would be under the JNA. But it what possible for the

8 infantry battalion, for example, to be subordinated. But in this case, in

9 this war, the reverse was the case.

10 Q. Excuse me, can you explain that again, about the reverse being the

11 case. It didn't get through the transcript. Could you explain that?

12 A. Since the JNA is a more professional army, as a rule the

13 Territorial Defence units would be under the JNA. But in the course of

14 combat, a territorial battalion might be -- might have an armoured

15 battalion under it. They would be under the TO officers if it was

16 necessary for a given task. But in this war, the reverse was the case,

17 the relationship between the TO and the JNA.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I understand. But you also said the TO units,

19 in your testimony in Belgrade, would be subordinated to a JNA unit that

20 was in a particular area. Isn't that correct?

21 A. We were subordinated to the Operative Group South.

22 Q. Okay. And in fact, in the fall of 1991 in Vukovar, all of the

23 units, whether it was TO units, volunteers, detachments, these were all

24 subordinated to the JNA, weren't they?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11998

1 Q. Now, I would like you to look at Exhibit 353, please. Can you see

2 that in front of you? If they could make it a little clearer.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, if we look at --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. WEINER: Sorry.

7 Q. If we look at page 2 in the English, which is page 1 in front of

8 you, the second column, right side, there is a question. I believe it is

9 the third question. It's on page 1 in the English, and it is:

10 "Who were your soldiers?"

11 And would you follow along as I read the next three sentences.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

14 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could my learned friend first put a

15 question and then show the text, because this is leading. If he could

16 first ask a question.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, this is cross-examination. You may put

18 a document to the witness, but you will appreciate, as Mr. Borovic is

19 implying, that there certainly will likely to be more reliability if it's

20 done the other way, and the Chamber is likely to be more influenced by

21 answers that haven't been immediately prompted by a written document --

22 MR. WEINER: Okay.

23 JUDGE PARKER: -- with a view to assess whether you want to give

24 emphasis as to weight or not.


Page 11999

1 Q. Sir, were you familiar with the size of Captain Radic's company?

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I really do apologise, but perhaps

3 the witness shouldn't read the text. Perhaps he should answer the

4 question without reading the text.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Do you want it off the screen, Mr. Weiner?

6 MR. WEINER: Yes.

7 JUDGE PARKER: I suspect --

8 MR. WEINER: I think it's too late. Maybe just let me do it the

9 way I was going to do it.

10 Q. Let's read the first three sentences of the paragraph that I have

11 referred to, the answer to the third question, which is:

12 "Who is --"

13 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation) Your Honours, you were quite clear.

14 Mr. Weiner is going back to a procedure that you have not allowed. I

15 don't see why the witness should now read out something of this kind. But

16 in any case, the witness has already been reading this text. But I think

17 the Chamber should take into consideration the fact that my learned friend

18 has been trying to get something in that shouldn't really be allowed,

19 according to the Rules. Thank you.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I --

21 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, could I just make something clear:

22 In cross-examination, it is proper, it is allowed, to put a document to a

23 witness and then to ask that question whether that reminds them, whether

24 they agree with the document, or whatever. That can be done.

25 The problem with that is that it's of less weight if the witness

Page 12000

1 says, "Oh, yes, that's right, I agree, that's what happened," than if the

2 witness does, as you suggested, that is speak about it first and then if

3 something is overlooked, maybe he is able to remember it reading a

4 document later.

5 So your way is better, but this can still occur. We are well

6 aware of what is happening. Thank you.


8 Q. Now, sir, would you follow along. It states:

9 "At one point there were about 500 people of different

10 nationalities with different party affiliations --"

11 A. I've read it, sir.

12 Q. Sir, do you recall whether the companies in Vukovar were made up

13 of various groups and various persons and persons from all different

14 locations?

15 A. There was Miroslav Vojinovic [as interpreted] and Radic, and he

16 had a company of 120. This was the main direction, and all the forces

17 that were mobilised, the TO and volunteers, were attached so that they

18 could carry out that part of the task and head on to Milovo Brdo, because

19 Mitnica was more fortified and it wasn't possible to go there.

20 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Everything is correct,

21 but there is an error in the transcript. He said along the axis of action

22 of Mr. Radic, there was Milorad Vujevic. Is that correct?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] If that could be corrected in the

25 transcript. I think that the witness has done that himself. I thank you.

Page 12001


2 Q. Okay. And yesterday you were asked, while we're speaking of this,

3 whether it was possible for a detachment to be subordinated to a battalion

4 company. Do you remember that yesterday?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And you said --

7 A. And later I understood the gentleman's question, but I haven't

8 clarified what happened to the detachment. He thought that I had

9 subordinated the entire detachment to the company; however, on the 3rd of

10 October, when the Guards Brigade launched an attack, I placed two

11 companies into assault detachments, two companies in each detachment, in

12 the 2nd Assault Company; and the other two companies, the 3rd and the 4th,

13 while I was there with Major Bajic over the first two days, and my deputy,

14 Cicak, was with Major Tesic.

15 Since the commander of the 4th Company was killed on the 3rd,

16 there were quite a lot of wounded and killed. On the 5th, the commander

17 of the 2nd Company was killed. This was the fortified axis. You couldn't

18 go there. We decided to head towards the left. I disbanded two

19 companies. I gave ten soldiers to Zjajo. I subordinated a large group to

20 the barracks, to guard the left wing of the barracks.

21 Q. Slow down. But what you're saying is, basically, during wartime,

22 there has to be some flexibility; isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes, yes. Let me just clarify this with regard to Borovic's

24 question.

25 Two companies were disbanded. The soldiers were subordinated.

Page 12002

1 The Galija [phoen] units, to the barracks; and some of them were guarding

2 buildings. There was this protection platoon. Only two companies

3 remained afterwards. In mid-October there were two companies, Miroljub's

4 and Stanko's companies. I then moved to the command of Major Tesic.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, and Mr.

6 Weiner. I would just like what the witness said to be in the transcript.

7 Those two companies became part of the 1st Assault Detachment. Is

8 that correct, Witness?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They cooperated with them.

11 JUDGE PARKER: -- put them to me, if you will.

12 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Sir, the witness said that those two

13 companies, "I subordinated them to the 1st Assault Detachment." It is not

14 in the transcript.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Just a moment, please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And they were cooperating with them.

17 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Could my colleague clarify this

18 matter, because that's what the witness said. That's what I heard. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 Mr. Weiner --

22 MR. WEINER: Yes.

23 JUDGE PARKER: -- could you clarify that with the witness, if you

24 would like? If not, I will.

25 MR. WEINER: I'll be happy to. We'll take it one step at a time.

Page 12003

1 Q. You talked about Miroljub Vujevic, and you also spoke of Stanko

2 Vojinovic. First, these people were not JNA company commanders; isn't

3 that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, isn't it correct that they reported to JNA company

6 commanders?

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have to intervene.

8 First, we haven't clarified the issue that concerns the 1st Assault

9 Detachment. This is quite new. This is something the witness hasn't

10 spoken about so far. Thank you.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, Mr. Weiner is going to clarify a

12 number of things, including that one, in an order that he thinks is

13 sensible, so we will be patient.


15 Q. You know who the -- oh, can you answer that?

16 A. Absolutely. At Tesic, at the command place, I had communications

17 and Major Tesic had communications. He was in charge of his companies; I

18 was in charge of my companies, until the end of the shift. I had a direct

19 line with the company commanders from the front line. And at the first

20 line, there was Miroljub's company, and Radic's company, and Stanko's

21 company with Bojkovski's company. They were cooperating.

22 Q. You indicated that they were cooperating. Let's take it one step

23 at a time. You testified in Belgrade; page 117 in the English, page

24 02994663 in the B/C/S. 02994663.

25 Now, do you recall being cross-examined at that time, during that

Page 12004

1 time, by the accused in that case, Miroljub Vujevic? Do you recall that?

2 And Miroljub Vujevic says to you, questions you:

3 "How many of us transferred to the company of Radic? What was its

4 strength? I don't know which of my 1st Company was. As far as I

5 remember, you mentioned it there. So how many of my people were in my

6 company?"

7 And you answered:

8 "At one point there were around 120, but that was at the end,

9 because, as Vukovar was being liberated, the civilians who were freed

10 immediately joined in. They were mobilised and assigned to companies to

11 be attached. So it gradually became bigger as the end was nearing."

12 Is that correct, that testimony that you gave in Belgrade?

13 A. That's correct. They had 120, but from March they had 117, or on

14 the 3rd. I have the list. On the 3rd of October.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Not March. Interpreter's correction.


17 Q. And in that question, Miroljub Vujevic asked:

18 "How many of us were transferred to the company of Captain Radic?"

19 He asked you that.

20 A. Sir, everyone tries to appear innocent. He wanted to be

21 subordinated to Mr. Radic so that he wasn't responsible. Perhaps later

22 on, when I was replaced, maybe he was then subordinated to Mr. Radic. I

23 don't know.

24 Q. But you never said at that time, sir, "You weren't subordinated to

25 Radic."

Page 12005

1 A. I wasn't subordinated to Radic, no.

2 Q. But you never said to Miroljub, "You weren't subordinated to

3 Radic," when he asked that question.

4 A. I was never subordinated to Radic. He can say that himself.

5 Q. And he did say that, that he was transferred to Radic in his

6 question, didn't he?

7 A. Well, there was an order of Mr. Mrksic's dated the 3rd. According

8 to that order, TO units had to be at the front line, even before the

9 Guards Brigade, because they were familiar with the field and the

10 situation and they could lead the action. So there was, so to speak,

11 cooperation. They intermingled. But the command -- the chain of command

12 was by me to my companies, and Tesic to his company. But they did

13 cooperate in the field. They certainly cooperated.

14 Q. If we move to page 81, sir, which is 02994638, you say in the

15 middle of the page:

16 "Miroljub practically had his superior commander, and Stanko had

17 his, who was commander of their company. He was immediately -- actually,

18 the TO was subordinated to that command as well."

19 That's what you answered.

20 A. When I wasn't there, that was the case. When I was at a meeting,

21 when I wasn't present, that was the case. I can't remain without a

22 command.

23 Q. So they were subordinated to JNA company commanders.

24 A. Well, in a certain sense, there was cooperation. So, yes, in a

25 certain sense. It was an unwritten rule.

Page 12006

1 Q. Now, you also mentioned that there was a joint command post

2 between Radic and Stanko -- and Vujevic. Isn't that correct?

3 A. Joint command post of Radic and Vujevic, but it was in Stanko's

4 house. His house was there. Stanko was to the right of him.

5 Q. And did you ever attend any meetings there?

6 A. I was at a meeting there on one occasion, but they would come to

7 the command as a rule.

8 Q. But you were aware that Radic held meetings there, weren't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And were you aware that Radic would discuss plans with his

11 soldiers there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And were you also aware that Radic would sleep there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Finally, could you move to page 120. I hope we don't have to move

16 around as much as we go through the day.

17 Now, you indicated, again, on page 120, which is 02994665 and

18 4666, you were asked -- one second, please. You were asked by Stanko

19 Vujinovic:

20 "Let me ask Mr. Jaksic one question. Does he know Sasa

21 Bojkovski?"

22 "Yes, I do."

23 Question: "Do you know that I was in his company?"

24 "DUSAN JAKSIC: Mr. Presiding Judge, I know that."

25 So you knew that Stanko Vujinovic's unit was subordinated to Sasa

Page 12007

1 Bojkovski, another JNA company commander. Isn't that correct?

2 A. I said that if I went to a meeting, if I wasn't present, then they

3 would cooperate. But those where there were companies. Since they were

4 more professional and they were more familiar with the situation, then you

5 had to act with soldiers. As a result they cooperated with them directly.

6 There was subordination to them, then.

7 Q. There was subordination to them. Thank you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an important

10 issue. That's why I'm intervening. To show parts of the transcript from

11 the Belgrade court is allowed, but if the context is the question of

12 Stanko Vujinovic for this witness, well, in that case, could the

13 Prosecution continue with what he's doing and then we will have the answer

14 that this witness provided to the court. It's not my right to examine

15 now, so could my colleague, Mr. Weiner, say how Stanko Vujinovic decided

16 and how Sasa Bojkovski decided? Could he ask questions so that we can

17 establish this to show whether this was cooperation or subordination.

18 If the remainder of the text is read out, it will be possible for

19 the witness to answer the question completely. Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, part of the issue seems to be that your

21 reference to Belgrade transcripts is not satisfactorily complete.

22 MR. WEINER: I will continue reading. That's fine with me, Your

23 Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner. And you haven't forgotten

25 Mr. Borovic's earlier point, have you?

Page 12008

1 MR. WEINER: I will get to that, too.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I'm glad.

3 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

4 Q. All right. Let's get to that now.

5 Sir, within your Petrova Gora detachment, you had four companies;

6 then it became three companies. And those were, if you want to call it,

7 detachment company --

8 A. Two, two.

9 Q. Two, okay. And Miroslav Vujevic and Stanko Vujinovic were the two

10 leaders of those companies.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And your full detachment was within the 1st Assault Detachment.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And --

15 A. I subordinated to the 2nd Assault Detachment, the part that

16 remained, from those two subordinate companies. I subordinated.

17 Q. Correct. So they were divided among two assault detachments, your

18 detachment?

19 A. Correct. I might perhaps clarify, if I may, the question of

20 subordination and all the rest.

21 This was for as long as the line was there, the line of attack.

22 That's what it's called. When Vukovar was liberated, I am asking you: Is

23 it possible to have these compact units together? Everybody's in charge

24 of their own unit; right?

25 They had no command post of their own. They were available. I

Page 12009

1 don't know what the subordination was at this point. You should ask

2 someone else. You should ask, perhaps, Mr. Sljivancanin if he had

3 subordinated Miroljub to Radic, or whether he was, in fact, independent.

4 Q. Okay. Now, while you were in charge of your unit, which was

5 divided among two assault companies, the two major units, Miroslav's and

6 Stanko's were --

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection. Objection.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] His detachment was not divided

10 between two assault companies but, rather, two assault detachments. I

11 think the question has been misphrased.

12 MR. WEINER: Correct. That's absolutely correct.

13 Q. Among two assault detachments. But the two companies that you

14 had, Miroljub's and Stanko's, were working with two JNA companies; isn't

15 that correct?.

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the witness's

17 answer. Could the witness please be asked to repeat.


19 Q. Could you repeat that answer? The interpreters didn't hear it.

20 The question was, again: Miroljub's and Stanko's companies were

21 working with two JNA companies; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes. Correct.

23 Q. The large company, which was Miroljub's, was working with Radic's

24 company; isn't that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 12010

1 Q. And Miroljub said that he was transferred to Radic's company,

2 isn't that correct, when he said in Belgrade? Isn't that correct?

3 A. I don't know what that means. Did Mr. Radic get an order to

4 transfer or not?

5 Q. Was Mr. Miroljub's company subordinated to Radic's company, if you

6 know?

7 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

9 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Can my learned friend please stop

10 pressuring the witness? The witness has said on a number of occasions

11 that there was no subordination; rather, there was cooperation. He

12 exercised command over Miroljub's company. And there was some heavy

13 pressure exerted on the witness, despite the ten or so answers that were

14 crystal clear. Well, there, perhaps the witness can be allowed to answer

15 the question himself rather than be subjected to this sort of pressure.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, it is cross-examination. I don't

17 judge at the moment that it has gone too far.

18 Yes, Mr. Weiner.


20 Q. Miroljub's company was subordinated to Radic's company; isn't

21 that correct?

22 A. As I said, two companies were subordinated to me and three

23 companies to Major Tesic. Out of my two companies, I sent one to Radic

24 and the other to Bojkovski. Zirovic had nothing with me. He had some

25 volunteers that weren't under my command. I only had those two companies.

Page 12011

1 When the operations in Vukovar were carried out, I used the radio

2 to command my units, and Major Tesic, his own three units. Until the

3 preparations ensued for Milovo Brdo and for Leva Supoderica, I was no

4 longer in that post. And I don't know if they were later subordinated to

5 anyone and what the orders were.

6 Q. Do you know whether Vujevic, Miroljub Vujevic, received his orders

7 from Radic -- received orders from Radic?

8 A. As far as I know, they were together at the same command. They

9 drew maps and made plans. I know they made a plan for the code words for

10 the attack. That was just before my shift. The attack on Milovo Brdo and

11 Leva Supoderica.

12 Q. But do you know, sir, whether or not Miroljub Vujevic received

13 orders from Radic? Do you know? If you don't know, that's fine. But do

14 you know?

15 A. I don't. I don't. I don't know about my commands.

16 Q. But you sent Miroljub Vujevic's unit to Radic's company, didn't

17 you?

18 A. As I said already, there was an order from Commander Mrksic to

19 send our companies, two down the axis of one assault attachment and two

20 down the axis of the other, to out the scouts and work with them. And

21 that's what happened.

22 Q. And you did send them to work with Radic's unit?

23 A. They were at the same line, the same attack, the same everything,

24 and it was only logical for them to work together.

25 Q. Now, if you look at Radic's statement in Exhibit 353, if you look

Page 12012

1 at that --

2 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic.

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] We know it's an exhibit, but we

5 don't yet know whether this is Radic's interview, since he has not yet

6 appeared as a witness and he's intending to. This is not Radic's

7 evidence, so as not to mislead the witness. If it's an interview, well,

8 I've nothing against this. Perhaps now that all of these questions have

9 been asked would be the right moment to show this.

10 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it is an exhibit, and being an exhibit,

11 the record speaks for itself, and I would like to use it and question him

12 on it.

13 JUDGE PARKER: You may.

14 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

15 Q. That portion that you read about 500 people of different

16 nationalities and with different party affiliations in the company, "which

17 I commanded. There were active service men, volunteers, reservists,

18 Chetniks and Serbian volunteers. I had to unite them under one command to

19 ensure success".

20 In that statement, Mr. Radic is speaking about unity of command

21 and that he was in charge of the people in his company from all the

22 various groups; isn't that correct?

23 A. I see that here Mr. Radic is referring to volunteers and

24 Chetniks. I had no such units under my command. I only had Miroljub's

25 company, and I know that there was an order from Mr. Mrksic to have them

Page 12013

1 all together, the insignia and everything, that nobody was to stand out

2 and everybody was to sport the same JNA insignia.

3 It wasn't as if the Chetniks and those others and those yet others

4 could afford to be different from anybody else. That was the gist of the

5 order. If there was subordination to a JNA unit, then this subordinated

6 unit had to sport JNA insignia.

7 Q. That's correct. And if you have various units, you can only have

8 one command, and that was JNA command. Isn't that correct?

9 A. If they're subordinated, yes.

10 Q. And if they're working together, only one person can issue the

11 orders. Under the doctrine of single command, you have one chain of

12 command, and that was the JNA command in Vukovar in the fall of 1991;

13 isn't that correct?

14 A. Well, well, you're trying to get me to say that the TO unit was

15 directly subordinated to a JNA unit. At the time, I wasn't a commander

16 any more, the way you're phrasing your question. I did not have any power

17 over these two companies, at least according to what you're saying.

18 Q. But sir -- excuse me.

19 Sir, you testified in Belgrade that the TO was subordinated to a

20 company, a JNA company; isn't that correct?

21 A. What exactly do you mean? If it's not subordinated, the

22 commander, who was not actually a reserve officer, would not have been

23 entitled to do something that was outside the regulations governing

24 command and governing orders. If, indeed, that had been the case, it was

25 only to be expected that a JNA officer would have reacted. He was

Page 12014

1 entitled, as an official, in the absence of a commander, to act. That is

2 only normal, in as far as he was able to, of course.

3 Q. Sir, on page 81 in the English and 02994638 in the B/C/S --

4 A. I don't understand English, I'm sorry.

5 Q. No, no, no. I've got the B/C/S page, the Serbian page. 02994638.

6 Do you see the question from the presiding judge? You see:

7 "Vujevic and Vojinovic deny, they say they were not commanders,

8 company commanders."

9 Your answer:

10 "They were not because they were directly seconded to the Guards

11 Company. Maybe that is why they say that. And the Guards Brigade, Mrksic

12 requested that. Since we were local population, we should always be at

13 the front line, and because we knew the area we should be at the front

14 line, so that they -- and Miroljub practically had his superior commander,

15 and Stanko had his -- who was the commander of their company, he was

16 immediately, actually the TO was subordinated to that company as well."

17 A. There is no other command. In the absence of the TO commander,

18 this subordination is logical. If I'm off to a staff meeting, needless to

19 say --

20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the last

21 portion of the witness's answer.


23 Q. When Miroljub's unit was at the front lines, fighting with Radic's

24 unit, would you usually be with them?

25 A. Did I go there?

Page 12015

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Well, more frequently to Stanko's.

3 Q. Okay. So since you were not -- since you were less frequently at

4 Miroljub's unit, someone had to command them. Correct?

5 A. Well, there was -- well, I was -- countless times. I told

6 Miroljub about the shortcomings and virtues of a commander. At the outset

7 there were problems when heading into an operation. He couldn't start all

8 over from scratch. For example, 7.00 they got the people altogether. I

9 leave. He goes into action. And then he leads a squad instead of a

10 company, and the others were not joining on this mission.

11 And then I kept telling him what an officer should do. If you

12 want to be a commander, in all the squads, all the platoons, you need to

13 give everybody very specific assignments if you want to achieve any

14 success at all.

15 In this purely technical sense, he was probably aided by Radic

16 later on.

17 Q. And after you left, the only one that was available to give him

18 any commands was Radic.

19 A. Well, no. This is something that you must ask Mr. Sljivancanin

20 who appointed him, and if he left him there as a company commander, then

21 he should know who he had subordinated him to, because I know nothing

22 further about this. I can't tell you whether he was independent or

23 whether he was, in fact, subordinated to anyone.

24 Q. Okay. Now, were you aware of the Leva Supoderica unit in that

25 area? Leva Supoderica unit.

Page 12016

1 A. Supoderica.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. You mean Kameni's unit?

4 Q. Yes. Were you familiar with them?

5 A. Yes. But they weren't subordinated to me.

6 Q. Now, they were also working together with Radic and Vujevic,

7 weren't they?

8 A. Yes, along the same axis, Leva Supoderica and Milovo Brdo.

9 Q. And do you know whether or not they were affiliated with any

10 political party?

11 A. I think they had something to do with the Radical Party, but I'm

12 not certain.

13 Q. And that was the party -- the Radical Party was the party of

14 Seselj; isn't that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were you aware that Seselj came to Vukovar and addressed the

17 troops?

18 A. I know that he was in Vukovar, but I don't know about the rest.

19 Q. Did you see him while he was there?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And did you hear him speak?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Where did you see him?

24 A. He was walking down Petrova Gora Street. He was at Petrova Gora

25 as well.

Page 12017

1 Q. And did you see him in the vicinity of that command post of Radic

2 and Vujevic?

3 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Borovic.

5 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness never said Radic had a

6 command post, to begin with.

7 JUDGE PARKER: The answer then will be "no," Mr. Borovic, on at

8 least that basis, if on no other.

9 Carry on, Mr. Weiner.


11 Q. Did you see him at Stanko Vujinovic's house, which you testified

12 was the joint command post of Vujevic and Radic?

13 A. No. Command posts is where the commander is, and these were lower

14 level commanders, the so-called komandiri. Therefore, it couldn't have

15 been theirs.

16 I saw his secretary there, a woman. I don't know what her name

17 is, but she was the only one I saw.

18 Q. And when you said you saw her there --

19 A. She spoke something or other in that political party. But I

20 didn't see in Stanko's house. I said I saw him as he was walking through

21 Petrova Gora.

22 Q. And you saw his secretary. Was that at Stanko's house?

23 A. I don't know. She was some sort of party member. I don't know

24 her name exactly. I just saw her there.

25 Q. You said you saw her where? You said, "There". Where do you

Page 12018

1 mean, "There"?

2 A. In Stanko's house, Stanko's house. I think it was nighttime

3 already, late evening, perhaps.

4 Q. Thank you. Now, you testified about the meeting at Velepromet

5 yesterday and today.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner, I have waited long, but you're moving

7 off to quite a different topic now. Can we go back to the 3rd of October

8 and sort out the issue?

9 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

10 Q. Where were you on the 3rd of October? You were in Vukovar,

11 weren't you?

12 A. The 3rd of October, yes.

13 Q. And at some time you moved in to Tesic's house.

14 A. Whose house?

15 Q. Tesic.

16 A. Tesic's?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. The command post where Tesic was, the house where the command post

19 was, is that what you mean?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. When those two companies that I subordinated, and then I came to

22 Tesic's command post because of those two companies. But that was

23 sometime after the 5th. I don't know exactly, but it was certainly after

24 the 5th of October.

25 Q. Now, your detachment was subordinated as of October 3rd between

Page 12019

1 two assault detachments; one was Tesic's and the other was the 2nd Assault

2 Detachment; isn't that correct?

3 A. Well, it depends on what you mean. The detachments were on the

4 Guards Brigade's payroll. This was something that was demanded at the

5 meeting, and this was accepted. If I was subordinate to the commander of

6 the Guards Brigade, well, this implies that the detachment, too, was

7 subordinated to the Guards Brigade. That much is certain.

8 Q. Okay. And within the Guards Brigade, they had three assault

9 groups or companies. I'm sorry. Within the assault detachment, they had

10 three companies.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And your men that were part of the -- part of Tesic's assault

13 groups were split between the three companies; isn't that correct? Or two

14 companies.

15 A. Two. Two companies.

16 Q. And the two companies that your men were split between were

17 Radic's and Bojkovski's companies?

18 A. Bojkovski's, yes.

19 MR. WEINER: Is that sufficient for the court?

20 JUDGE PARKER: Were any --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since -- may I? Since there were

22 three companies, so were these two. Two in the general area and the third

23 in a narrower strip, which required no further manpower. And that's why

24 only these two were split up. The third was only controlling a very small

25 area. So one company was added to the first company, cooperating with the

Page 12020

1 first company, and the second was cooperating with the second -- I'm

2 sorry, with the third.

3 JUDGE PARKER: On the 3rd of October, you had four companies?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Do I understand that you dealt with two of your

6 companies by subordinating them to an assault detachment?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Disbanded and resubordinated the

8 soldiers to the assault detachment, because I had lost my commanders and I

9 had a shortage of men. There had been losses, there were fewer men left,

10 so I did some resubordination; ten of them to the special platoon. At the

11 front line I resubordinated the rest of them. And then on the right

12 flank, the TO manpower was required, those who knew the area, to protect

13 the right flank. I left a rather large group there and had them

14 resubordinated. And then I took the two companies and I went straight

15 over to the 1st Assault Detachment.

16 Between the 3rd and the 5th, I was with the 2nd Assault Detachment

17 with Major Bajic, myself.

18 JUDGE PARKER: What was the name of the major?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bajic. Bajic.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was a Muslim.

22 JUDGE PARKER: So that you took two of your companies to the 1st

23 Assault Detachment.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second, the 2nd detachment.

25 Extinguished and resubordinated the men to the 2nd Detachment. Since

Page 12021

1 there was no command personnel, and for their needs, I subordinated to

2 them.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Borovic, does that answer your concerns?

4 MR. BOROVIC: [Interpretation] Most certainly, Your Honour, and

5 thank you very much.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Now, Mr. Weiner.

7 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

8 Q. Just my own question. So you sent two companies to the 2nd

9 Detachment, and two to the 1st?

10 A. A few members. The 4th had 45; the 2nd, 72. There were a lot of

11 losses. On the 3rd, the commander of the 4th Company was killed. On the

12 3rd, Pajic died. As I didn't have commanders, the company was disbanded,

13 I resubordinated the remaining men to the 2nd Assault Detachment, and I

14 also resubordinated men for the barracks security. Then I moved to the

15 command of Tesic with the other men.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, you talked about the meeting in Velepromet. And

17 you indicated that you only have a partial memory, you don't have all the

18 facts. You don't recall all of the facts; you recall general substance.

19 But exact times, exact places, you don't recall; isn't that correct?

20 A. I didn't have any duties or obligations, so it wasn't my duty to

21 be there as a member of the government, at the session. Perhaps I spoke

22 to people I knew outside of the hall as well. I didn't attend the entire

23 session.

24 If I had had any information, it would have been written down in

25 my notebook. I didn't keep a record. If I had, I would have produced it

Page 12022

1 now.

2 Q. Correct. You have no notes, you have no records or calendar of

3 that meeting; isn't that correct?

4 A. I didn't take any notes, so I can't remember. But as for these

5 events, it was only when I had a look at my notebook that I saw that on

6 the 17th of November I attended that meeting, and I was able to read about

7 the matters that were discussed, and about the deliberation of Vukovar, et

8 cetera. I have the schedule of the company, the cooperation, commanders

9 of the brigades, which directions, which axes were taken, how many men

10 were involved. I have this all written down.

11 Q. Do you have this book with you?

12 A. I haven't got this on me. It's in my room. In my first

13 statement, 15 years have passed since then. I didn't know Pajic at the

14 time, so I said that I had three companies. But I remember Fot, in fact.

15 I knew him from before the war. So it was only when I saw or had a look

16 at my notebook that I was able to present the facts such as they were.

17 Q. Now, would you be willing to make this notebook available, so

18 someone could look at it, possibly the registrar could copy it, over the

19 weekend?

20 A. Why not? Why not? Yes, that's fine.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, with regard to the meeting at Velepromet, which

22 you said is on --

23 A. But just a minute, if I may add something for the Judges. This

24 notebook, well, there's a part that concerns the period from the 3rd of

25 October to the 17th, and then I have another part that concerns the men

Page 12023

1 wounded and killed, and then there is another part that concerns my time

2 in the corps. I wouldn't want you to be confused. I used that very same

3 notebook when I later worked as an officer in the corps.

4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, could someone from the Victims and

5 Witnesses Unit or Registry please see him in this weekend and try to

6 facilitate a copying of that notebook for all parties?

7 JUDGE PARKER: I think at the end of this sitting, the --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Someone could go to my room now. I

9 will provide the key and that book can be brought here.

10 JUDGE PARKER: We will be adjourning quite soon. I was going to

11 say that we will arrange for a court officer to go with you to your room

12 and obtain the notebook straight away and it can then be.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will hand the handbook over. It's

14 not a problem.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


17 Q. Now, do you have any notes -- you talk about the November 17th

18 meeting when you were -- when Major Sljivancanin relieve you of duty. Do

19 you have any notes relating to the November 20th meeting at Velepromet, in

20 that notebook, if you know?

21 A. I think I have some notes, but they only concern the 26th, from

22 the 26th. I would have to have a look. I have the dates there. It's

23 quite by chance that I found that notebook. I certainly had a smaller

24 notebook, but since this one was a big notebook, that is probably the

25 reason for which I didn't use it that often. I didn't often have it on

Page 12024

1 me.

2 Q. Okay. Now, did you keep any notes of your meeting with Mrksic?

3 Did you keep any notes, records --

4 A. I have an order in that notebook dated the 3rd of October, and

5 perhaps even the 5th. Only those two. I didn't record anything else in

6 that notebook.

7 Q. So you have no notes as to the meeting with Colonel Mrksic which

8 -- when you went there at the request of Goran Hadzic? You have no notes

9 about that, indicating times --

10 A. No, not Goran Hadzic. Mr. Vojinovic. Not Hadzic, Mr. Vojinovic.

11 No, I haven't. This was all done orally.

12 Q. Now, you testified that you went to see Mrksic, and then you

13 returned to the meeting. In Belgrade --

14 A. To the session, yes.

15 Q. In Belgrade, you previously testified that you finished meeting

16 with Mrksic. You then went to the barracks and saw Miroljub Vujevic and

17 Stanko Vujinovic outside at the gate. Do you recall that?

18 A. That was probably when I also asked about Vukaric's [phoen] son.

19 I probably noticed them on the road, in front of the KPS, before the

20 barracks. I probably noticed those two people. I then stopped the

21 vehicle. I said that I had seen Mrksic, and I told them about our request

22 and about the decision that had been taken, and nothing else.

23 Q. And you indicated that after you had told Vujevic and Vojinovic,

24 they became very upset over Mrksic's decision. Do you recall that?

25 A. They were disgusted; that's correct.

Page 12025

1 Q. In fact, you said they were "seeing red." That was in your

2 statement to the investigative judge. You said that they were "seeing

3 red". Do you mean that they were infuriated, really upset?

4 A. Well, yes, in a certain sense, they were upset. They protested.

5 Q. And you said at the same time you're talking to Vujevic and

6 Vojinovic, the busses with the civilians were there at the barracks.

7 Isn't that correct?

8 A. Yes, there were the busses there. The civilians were inside.

9 Q. Now, you then state in your 2003 testimony that you didn't stay

10 long with Vujevic and Vojinovic, "and I left and went home." I'm reading

11 your --

12 A. No, no.

13 Q. "I did not stay long, and I left and went home".

14 A. No. I just remember that I met them, I conveyed this information

15 to them, and that was it. I didn't linger there. I don't know whether I

16 went home. I don't know what I did. But I only remember that I was with

17 them very briefly and just conveyed this information to them.

18 Q. Now, you said, "I don't know if I went home or what I did." So

19 did you do some -- is it possible you did something --

20 A. I don't know exactly. All I remember is that I saw them on my

21 way. I stopped. I said that I had seen Mrksic, that we had requested

22 that criminals be tried in our area. I conveyed that order. Nothing

23 else.

24 Q. Okay.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Lukic.

Page 12026

1 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] I think there is an error in the

2 transcript and that is why Mr. Weiner is putting such a question. Page

3 82, line 6, the witness says, "I don't know whether I went home or to

4 Velepromet," and that hasn't been recorded in the transcript.

5 MR. WEINER: I think that is clarifying the question.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Weiner. I'm going to have to ask

7 you to continue on Monday.

8 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know the information we have

10 is that Mr. Vasic, who is not feeling well, has seen the doctor, he is

11 feeling better, but he's been advised to rest this afternoon. And that's

12 the situation as we know it.

13 Now, Mr. Domazet, after this witness on Monday, do we have another

14 witness?

15 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. The witness

16 Milosevic is in The Hague. As far as I know, Mr. Vasic has already spoken

17 to him and he is preparing for the witness to start today. But after the

18 witness Jaksic we will have the witness Milosevic. He is here.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Domazet.

20 MR. WEINER: Your Honours, I know you want to rush, but just two

21 questions. One is, we have Milosevic on Monday, and I got the -- I had

22 the impression yesterday that their next witness isn't coming till

23 Wednesday.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Do we have interruptions in witnesses this coming

25 week, Mr. Domazet?

Page 12027

1 MR. DOMAZET: [Interpretation] Since the witness who was supposed

2 to arrive with Milosevic had a heart attack and is now in hospital, the

3 witness Lesanovic is the next witness who is to appear. But unfortunately

4 it looks like he won't be appearing until Wednesday. And we also know

5 that attempts are being made with regard to witness Milosevic, who has

6 been subpoenaed, and attempts are being made for him to come, too. But at

7 this point in time I'm not sure what to say. Perhaps we won't have a

8 witness on Tuesday, if we conclude the testimony or complete the testimony

9 of these witnesses on Monday.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, it's Milosevic and then

11 Osamovic. We must now adjourn.

12 I must ask you, sir, to return on Monday. And we will sit on

13 Monday at 2.15.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.00 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

16 September, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.