1 Thursday, 10th July 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 (In open session)
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
5 Can we have the appearances, please?
6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I'm Teresa
7 McHenry. I appear here with co-counsel Mr. Giuliano
8 Turone, and our case manager, Ms. Elles van
9 Dusschoten. Mr. Niemann continues to be out of town and
10 will not be here this week or next week but will be here
11 after that. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the defence appearances
14 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
15 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for
16 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Mr. Delalic is co-defended by my
17 colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.
18 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): I am Zjelko Olujic, defence
19 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. In my team is my
20 colleague Michael Greaves, attorney from the United
21 Kingdom and Northern Ireland.
22 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your
23 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from
24 Sarajevo. I am defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic.
25 Together in my team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from
1 Houston, Texas.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John
3 Ackerman. I am here representing Esad Landzo. I'm
4 assisted by Cynthia McMurrey.
5 May I take just a moment to raise a matter with
6 your Honours?
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: At the end of our work here yesterday we were
9 informed that there has been a new order regarding the
10 way our clients are handled here while at the court.
11 My client, Mr. Landzo, for instance, was put in an almost
12 impossible situation this morning. A little tiny room
13 that is hot, has no air, and it was very difficult for
14 us to have any communication with him this morning.
15 There may be a reason for that, but if there is, we were
16 not advised that there is any recent incident that has
17 occurred to justify these harsher measures of detention
18 while present here at the court. We have no idea what
19 that comes from or why it's being done, and it seems at
20 the very least all defence counsel are entitled to be
21 told why these harsher measures are being instituted
22 with regard to our clients.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we'll
24 refer the matter to the Registrar, who might be able to
25 give an explanation as to what is happening and how to
1 remedy it. I'm sure they will deal with it quickly.
2 John, I think you'll take it on.
3 Ms McHenry, I think you still have
5 Witness P (continued)
6 Re-examined by MS. McHENRY
7 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I just have a couple of
8 questions for him in re-examination. Then I have
9 another issue to bring up to the court with respect to
10 Witness P. I can do that after my -- it is probably
11 best that I do this now. I would just ask that we go
12 into private session for this, and, to the extent that
13 I get to explaining to your Honours certain information
14 that's not known to the witness, I would ask that your
15 Honours, with respect to this, that the witness be asked
16 if he can take off his earphones, because I don't want
17 there to be any suggestion that somehow I have
18 influenced him by hearing what I'm going to say.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. It's better you complete your
20 re-examination before going into that.
21 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Fine, your Honour. Sir --
22 JUDGE JAN: Take off his --
23 MS. McHENRY: I heard the judge to indicate I should ask
24 what is technically part of my re-examination first and
25 then we will handle the other matters. That is how
1 I understood your Honour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Perhaps it is fairer not to complete
3 these other matters with the examination itself until
4 that were concluded and other matters which are
5 incidental might come later.
6 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Thank you. Sir, after you were first
7 arrested and brought to Mr. Delalic's house in the early
8 morning hours of May 27th, can you please tell us, when
9 Mr. Delalic talked with Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic, did
10 Mr. Delalic ask him to put you to work or tell him to put
11 you to work?
12 A. The tone was raised --
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I apologise. There is
14 no basis for this question on the part of the
15 prosecution. This question had been asked and
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your question is --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your question is what did he say about
20 the witness. Is that what you want to say?
21 MS. McHENRY: My question is on direct examination I believe
22 the witness testified that Mr. Delalic told
23 Mr. Jusufbegovic to put the witness to work. On
24 cross-examination raised by Ms Residovic he, in response
25 to a question by Ms Residovic, I think, may have given
1 some ambiguity about whether or not -- who was asking
2 and who was telling. To the extent there's any
3 ambiguity, I just want to -- I'm not positive there is
4 any, since he said what he testified to clearly on
5 direct, but to the extent that there is, I'm trying to
6 clarify the matter.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, both the
8 question and the answer were clear enough and there's no
9 basis for bringing this question again on the part of
10 the prosecution.
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think you are putting your question
12 in the alternative, suggesting which of them, but I
13 don't think that is necessary.
14 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. I tried very hard to give
15 alternatives so I wouldn't be accused of suggesting to
16 him what the answer was.
17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's what you have done. You asked
18 him questions which could make him choose which of the
19 things he was --
20 MS. McHENRY: I have asked him to choose but I don't believe
21 I have suggested the answer to him, but I am happy to
22 reword it, if your Honours think that would be better.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The suggestion is that the question
24 Ms Residovic asked was ambiguous.
25 MS. McHENRY: On cross-examination, that is correct.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Well, it wasn't. It was very clear
2 who was speaking to whom.
3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, it was very clear. Maybe I
4 can find the transcript. It was very clear. I think
5 there's no ambiguity at all who was speaking.
6 Mr. Delalic was speaking with Dr. Jusufbegovic.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes.
8 MS. McHENRY: I think that there may be some ambiguity as to
9 exactly what Mr. Delalic said and if he was asking or
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But that was not the purpose of the
12 cross-examination, was it?
13 MS. McHENRY: I don't know exactly what the purpose was, but
14 to the extent I thought there was some ambiguity, that
15 defence counsel might argue there was some ambiguity in
16 the record, I wanted to make sure that the record was
17 clear. I don't think it's important. If your Honours
18 wish --
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No, I don't think so.
20 MS. McHENRY: Fine. Sir, you testified in
21 cross-examination that there were HVO uniforms in the
22 camp before 22nd July. During this time before 22nd
23 July did everyone at the camp, including Mr. Landzo and
24 Mr. Delic, wear HVO uniforms or did just some people?
25 Can you please clarify?
1 A. The HVO uniforms were worn by Mr. Pavo Mucic, Buric
2 Zeljko. Mr. Pavo Mucic's driver, Zjelko Buric, wore the
3 HVO uniform and the other uniforms were the TO uniforms.
4 Q. What about Mr. Mucic's uniform indicated he was from the
5 HVO? Was there any insignia or how could you tell?
6 A. I don't remember the insignia on Mr. Mucic's uniform but
7 I do remember the insignia on the uniform of Buric.
8 Q. Thank you, sir. Sir, in September when you went with
9 Mr. Mucic to Mr. Delalic's apartment with the list of
10 prisoners, did Mr. Mucic say anything to you about to
11 whom he was going to give that list of prisoners?
12 A. No. He said that he was taking it to the archive.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Your Honour, that completes my
14 questions in --
15 JUDGE JAN: Direct -- re-examination.
16 MS. McHENRY: In re-examination. Thank you, your
18 I have another matter that may involve this
19 witness, and I wish to find out how your Honours wish to
20 handle it. I would wish to ask that in private
21 session, and I think it would probably be appropriate,
22 so there's no suggestion that I've influenced the
23 witness, that the witness be asked to take off his
24 microphone -- his headphones.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know whether this witness
1 speaks any English at all or not, but if there's going
2 to be some discussion, it's pretty conceivable that one
3 of the two lawyers from ex-Yugoslavia may be saying
4 something and they will be definitely speaking in a
5 language I can understand without an interpreter. It
6 may be more appropriate if he left the room for a couple
7 of minutes.
8 MS. McHENRY: That's a fair point.
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think so. If it concerns him, he
10 doesn't have to be here. When we take a decision about
11 him, he will know what the decision is.
12 MS. McHENRY: Fine, your Honours.
13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he has concluded his evidence, he
14 can be discharged.
15 MS. McHENRY: He has concluded his evidence concerning the
16 questions he was asked thus far. I would certainly
17 notify the court that the prosecution may be seeking to
18 recall him for other purposes other than directly what
19 he has testified to, and that's what I wanted to bring
20 up with the court, to find out whether or not the court
21 wished in the interest of economy and efficiency and
22 getting some of this information out, which may be
23 directly relevant to things your Honours are hearing
24 now, or whether or not you wish to seek -- whether or
25 not you wish us to recall him at a later time.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Definitely if he has concluded his
2 evidence in respect of what he has been invited to, that
3 is all for the time being. If there is any intention
4 to have him for some other thing, then that application
5 is a different one and we have to take it into account,
6 but not in his presence.
7 MS. McHENRY: Fine. I would ask that he be excused and
8 that I be permitted to address your Honours briefly in
9 private session.
10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. P. You
11 are discharged for the time being. If the prosecution
12 wants you for another thing, they'll get in touch with
14 MR. MORAN: I am not going to put words in Ms. McHenry's
15 mouth but it might be appropriate to ask him to wait in
16 the witness room, have a cup of coffee, wait for fifteen
17 minutes. Would that be something the prosecution
18 accepts as a suggestion.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That depends on the way the prosecution
20 organises themselves.
21 MS. McHENRY: The prosecution welcomes that suggestion.
22 (Witness withdrew from court)
23 (In closed session)
13 Page 4737 redacted in closed session
13 Page 4738 redacted in closed session
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25 (In open session)
1 (Witness enters court)
2 MIRKO DORDIC (continued)
3 Examined by MR. TURONE
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you kindly tell the witness he is
5 still on his oath?
6 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are
7 still testifying under oath.
8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can start.
9 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
10 Good morning, Mr. Dordic. Yesterday we were
11 tal(redacted)king about your first arrival in Celebici and
12 description of conditions of life in Hangar 6. Now
13 I would go back to your assertion about your possession
14 of a weapon and my question is: was there a time while
15 you were in Celebici when you were requested to hand
16 over this weapon or any weapon you might have been --
17 might have had?
18 A. (In interpretation): good morning. I should like to
19 continue. A few days after I was brought to Celebici
20 the guards called me, and when I came out of the hangar
21 Guska Jasmin was waiting for me, who was, I think,
22 secretary of MUP, Sevko Niksic, who was the Commander in
23 the police station, and Sadik Dzumhur, known as Diksa,
24 who before the war was the director of a military
25 training centre belonging to the Territorial Defence in
1 Borci. Borci is a Serb village, which was then under
2 the control of Serbian forces -- of the Serb people,
3 I mean. They asked me -- Diksa shook hands with me and
4 asked me how I was. I said: "You can see how." Then
5 he asked me: "Do you know where Rajko is?" I said I did
6 not. He told me he had been arrested and that he was
7 in Number 9. He asked me whether I wanted to see
8 him. I said: "No", because I thought that was just a
10 JUDGE JAN: This is not a question you asked.
11 MR. TURONE: Can you explain who is Rajko?
12 JUDGE JAN: This is not the question you asked about the
14 MR. TURONE: I imagine he is going there.
15 JUDGE JAN: You have to direct him.
16 MR. TURONE: Could you please be more responsive to my
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Repeat your question again.
19 JUDGE JAN: Ask him a straight question.
20 MR. TURONE: My question is: was there a time while you
21 were in Celebici when you were requested to hand over
22 your weapon or your weapons, if any.
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Limit your answer to this question.
24 A. I'm telling you in the order things happened.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. You were asked about weapons and
1 what you said --
2 MR. TURONE: Yes.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You don't have to go that far back.
4 MR. TURONE: You are invited to arrive anyway to the answer
5 of that question. Thank you.
6 JUDGE JAN: You see, he told us yesterday that he had an
7 automatic rifle which he left at home before going out
8 to take protection in some Serbian area. So you asked
9 him: "In the camp somebody asked you to surrender the
10 weapon?" Let him say that.
11 MR. TURONE: I believe the witness understood my question.
12 A. I understood and in that conversation Jasmin Guska asked
13 me: "Did you have a gun?" I said I did. He asked me:
14 "Where is it? Did you surrender it?" I said: "No,
15 I had it near the house", because Jasmin Guska was a vet
16 for some time. I had cattle and he would visit
17 often. He knew where my house was. I explained where
18 the rifle was. Then he asked me: "Would you come with
19 me so that we can bring it?" I said: "Yes". He said:
20 "Okay. I'll send somebody to take you there."
21 After some time I went in the hangar. They went
22 away. Then they called me again. There were three
23 policemen: Vahid Alagic; somebody called Sljivo -- he
24 was a goal keeper in the Igman soccer team -- and
25 another one, another policeman, whom I knew by sight but
1 I didn't know his name. We sat in a police car, a
2 Golf, and we headed for Bradina. The policeman I
3 didn't know and Sljivo kept insulting me, saying how
4 I stank, how all Cetniks stink, and then this other one
5 warned them not to behave like that way. My hands were
6 tied behind my back. I was sitting on the back seat.
7 We got to my house, if I may put it that way.
8 When I came out I saw that everything was burnt down; so
9 what used to be my house. My mother was in front of
10 it. She was about 70. Sljivo started beating me.
11 Vahid had told him not to, because my mother was
12 watching me.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, please. My understanding of the
14 question was: "Were you required to surrender your
15 weapon?" It seems to me the obvious answer to that is
16 "yes". If it always takes this long to say "yes", we
17 may be here three or four days.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually they were going to collect
19 the weapon. I agree with you.
20 JUDGE JAN: It's too long.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is a familiar pattern in this
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, it is.
24 MR. TURONE: I wanted to ask him how did that happen. He
25 is answering. May I --
1 JUDGE JAN: Ask him whether they were able to recover the
2 weapon or not.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE JAN: Ask him whether they were able to recover the
5 weapon or not. That is simple.
6 MR. TURONE: How did it happen that you --
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did you recover the weapon when you
8 went with them?
9 MR. TURONE: This is exactly --
10 JUDGE JAN: Ask him to answer that question.
11 MR. TURONE: Did you recover the weapon and hand that weapon
12 over? This is what he is actually answering.
13 JUDGE JAN: He is not answering that. He is giving an --
14 A. I'm telling you how this happened, how I recovered the
15 weapon. Vahid asked me where it was and I explained
16 where it was. He said: "Do you know the number of the
17 rifle?" I knew.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object at this time
19 that it is still unresponsive both to the question
20 Mr. Turone asked and the question that Judge Jan asked,
21 which is a fairly simple question: "Was it recovered?"
22 This is like asking somebody what time it is and he
23 tells you how to make a watch. As Judge Karibi Whyte
24 said, it is a familiar pattern.
25 MR. TURONE: May I respond to that? I would invite the
1 witness to be a little bit faster in arriving to the
2 point, but anyway we cannot prevent the witness,
3 I believe, your Honour, from giving his account of his
4 experiences as he recalls them anyway.
5 MR. MORAN: Sure you can. You can ask --
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That's where we want the experience.
7 You did not want the experience in this case. What you
8 wanted was whether he was asked about a weapon. He
9 said he was. Now whether he now recovered the weapon
10 and gave them to them -- gave the weapon to them. He
11 did. I suppose that's all.
12 MR. TURONE: Exactly, your Honour. So did you hand the
13 weapon over to them?
14 A. I had just got to that spot when we found the weapon.
15 I showed them where it was. The policemen jumped over
16 a fence. Before they asked me what the number of my
17 rifle was I told them. They looked at the rifle.
18 They checked and they knew it was mine by the number.
19 They checked to see whether I had fired from it. It
20 was clean, so they confirmed that I hadn't fired a
21 single bullet. We got back into the car and they took
22 me back to Celebici, to Number 6.
23 Q. All right. Thank you. So apart from this episode,
24 were you interrogated by military investigators while
25 you were in Celebici?
1 A. About ten days later an interrogation occurred. They
2 called us in groups of five, six, sometimes ten. A
3 soldier would come with a list, calling out the names of
4 people who had to make statements. There were five or
5 six of us in my group. I don't exactly remember all
6 the names. We were taken to the command building of
7 the camp. We were lined up against the wall, facing
8 the wall, and we had to stand like this (indicating),
9 with our arms raised, and to show two fingers in a
10 V-sign. One of the soldiers would call out people one
11 by one to go to the interrogation room. It still
12 wasn't my turn. Somebody patted me on the shoulder.
13 I turned around and this person said: "Hello" to me.
14 It was Nusret Sacibovic, who used to work with me. He
15 worked in the same company as I. He was a lawyer there.
16 But here he acted as a military investigator. He told
17 me: "Mrki, be careful what you say. This is an
18 important list and you are on it."
19 When my turn came, I entered the office. When
20 you go in it was to the left. When I went in, I saw
21 Miro Stenek, somebody called Tomic, whom I knew. He
22 was a teacher, and a typist, Ismeta. I don't remember
23 her surname.
24 Q. Mr. Dordic, where were you treated before the
25 interrogation, while you were waiting for your turn?
1 A. I was facing the wall with my hands raised against the
2 command building outside.
3 Q. All right. So when you entered the room and you saw --
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That was not your question. Your
5 question was: where was he treated? That was your
7 MR. TURONE: Is there anything else to say about how you
8 were treated waiting your turn?
9 A. We didn't see who it was, but the military men were
10 provoking people, saying things, but there was no
11 beatings, at least not in my group. They were just
12 saying nasty things and cursing us.
13 Q. All right. After entering the room where Stenek, Tomic
14 and Ismeta were, did you see any of these people in
16 A. No.
17 Q. And how were you treated during this interrogation?
18 A. Correctly, at least as I was concerned, because Stenek
19 knew me personally.
20 Q. During this interrogation were you in a position to face
21 the window of the room?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. And what could you see through that window?
24 A. I could see soldiers walking around.
25 Q. During the interrogation were you accused of anything
2 A. They kept accusing me. I said what I knew. Some of
3 the things I denied. At one point Stenek even offered
4 me a cigarette. I had one and then he said: "Go on
5 talking", that he was sure that I was speaking the
6 truth. Then they asked me whether I was a member of
7 the SDS, that is the Serbian Democratic Party. I said
8 I wasn't and I indeed was not. Then they asked me many
9 other things, how the weapons had reached us, whether
10 there was any military organisation in Bradina, and that
11 sort of thing, where I was arrested.
12 Q. Did you sign any piece of paper after the interrogation?
13 A. I did. I signed a statement.
14 Q. Was that a long interrogation?
15 A. No, it wasn't very long, in my case.
16 Q. Did they interrogate you again about your weapon?
17 A. Yes, later on, during my stay in the camp, individual
18 guards, if that is how I can call them.
19 Q. I mean during this interrogation were you interrogated
21 A. No. Yes, they asked me about weapons. They spoke
22 mostly about weapons. During the interrogation they
23 spoke most about weapons.
24 Q. Did you give them any answer to this issue, concerning
25 this issue of weapons during the interrogation?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. What did you tell them?
3 A. They asked me how I had got my weapon. I told them
4 I had bought it and that sort of thing, on the black
6 Q. Were there any judicial proceedings against you after
7 this interrogation?
8 A. No, but for some others there was at the end, in the
9 course of 1994. For some of the inmates who stayed
10 until the end, until the exchange, some criminal
11 proceedings were initiated. One of the detainees was
12 sentenced to 12 years.
13 Q. Did this interrogation have any other legal consequence
14 concerning your position? Did they take any decision
15 concerning you after this interrogation?
16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I'll object to that question unless
17 it can be shown that this witness is somehow an expert
18 on what legal -- or has some feel for what legal
19 consequences were --
20 JUDGE JAN: I do not think this is an appropriate
21 question. He wants to find out whether he was
22 prosecuted on the basis of his statement or not. He
23 just wants to find out -- not the legal consequences in
24 the abstract sense -- he means: was he prosecuted on the
25 basis of his statement or not?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 JUDGE JAN: This is what he wants to find out.
3 A. We were put into groups that they only knew what they
4 were about. There were several categories, first,
5 second, third. Then we learned through the guards and
6 through Ismeta which category we had been placed into,
7 which category of detainees.
8 Q. Did you get to know in which category you were
10 A. Yes. I was put into the first category, as one of the
12 Q. Okay. Thank you.
13 A. And this was confirmed later, because I was among the
14 last group of 32 people to leave the camp.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Dordic, you can see a model in front of you.
16 Can you understand what does this model represent? You
17 can stand up, if you wish.
18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can stand up.
19 MR. TURONE: You can even turn around the table, if you
21 A. It was the former barracks of the Yugoslav People's
22 Army, which was later transformed into the Celebici camp
23 when we were brought there.
24 Q. May I ask the usher to provide the witness with
25 something to point, and I would like you, please, to
1 indicate in this model the places you have been talking
2 about already. I believe the court will allow you to
3 turn around the table, if you feel better so doing.
4 A. Will you be able to hear me? This was the entry to the
5 former barracks, later the camp and women were put there
6 (pointing). My sister and some other relatives were
8 THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear very well. I'm sorry.
9 MR. TURONE: I'm sorry. They cannot hear you, because your
10 microphone is too far away.
11 A. This was the entrance to the former barracks. This was
12 the reception where women were accommodated, detained
13 women. Among those women was my sister and my
14 brother's wife. This was the command building
15 (pointing). These were some dormitories and warehouses
16 and some toilets, and this was the building known as the
17 infirmary, Number 22. This was the road leading there
18 (pointing) to where I stayed, to the hangar. This was a
19 water tank.
20 MR. MORAN: Excuse me. Can he identify that building? He
21 is saying: "This is this". The transcript is not clear
22 what he is identifying. Each of those buildings has a
23 number or letter on top of it. If he could say: "A was
24 the administration building", I think that might make
25 the record clearer and a whole lot easier to read at
1 some future date, which is something I think we are all
2 going to have to do.
3 MR. TURONE: All right. Can you please say what is on the
4 sticker of the several buildings you have been
5 recognising, please?
6 A. (Pointing), A is the reception, where the women were.
7 B is the command building. D is a warehouse, a
8 dormitory and some toilets and things. E is
9 Number 6. This was a warehouse. There was somebody
10 called Kernic. That's number F. They were repairing
11 weapons there. Here again there were some warehouses
12 I knew. We unloaded certain goods that were coming
13 here to these warehouses.
14 Q. All right. That might be enough.
15 A. We unloaded weapons here two or three times.
16 I participated in unloading weapons somewhere in June
17 and July.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mirko Dordic, you can --
19 A. Let me just add there was a machine-gun nest here
20 (indicating) and a bunker was over here that some
21 detainees had to dig for the guard Landzo. This is
22 where we went to urinate, to piss -- I'm sorry -- and
23 this is a hole (indicating) that was dug that we used as
24 the toilet.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. You can sit down again. So,
1 Mr. Dordic, did you personally suffer any other physical
2 maltreatment during your stay in Celebici besides the
3 beating on the very first day?
4 A. Well, yes. That's a longish story.
5 Q. Do you mean -- did that happen once or more than once?
6 A. That happened several times. The first time it was
7 somewhere --
8 Q. Please go --
9 A. Shall I --
10 Q. Can you please describe in detail one by one every
11 single incident, if possible in chronological order?
12 Thank you.
13 A. The first beating that I experienced down there was when
14 I was brought out by the guard Landzo and Mr.dzic Kemal
15 and some name called Salko that was also waiting there.
16 I know his first name was Salko. They brought me to
17 this hangar number -- letter F. They put me against a
18 wall and they asked me about some grenade, some pistols,
19 and I had no answer for that. They kept kicking me but
20 that didn't last long and then they returned me to the
22 After a while on one occasion Delic came in,
23 followed by Landzo. They walked around. They looked
24 all prisoners over. We were all looking down with our
25 legs pulled up. At one point they came to me and they
1 said: "You", and ordered me to come out. Zenga took me
2 out. He had a stick in his hand and later on I found
3 out it was a baseball bat, because I had not seen it
5 JUDGE JAN: Who had that baseball bat? There were two
6 persons, Landzo and Delic. Who had the baseball bat?
7 There were persons, Landzo and Delic. Who had the
8 baseball bat?
9 A. The baseball bat, Landzo. He brought me outside and
10 brought me to hangar letter F. He lent me against the
11 wall. I was leaning against it, facing it (indicating)
12 and leaning with my hands and then he put a piece of
13 metal in my mouth so that I could not be heard, that
14 I would not utter noises, and he started beating me on
15 the legs and in the ribcage. He kept asking about a
16 machine-gun. It went on for a long time. I think he
17 was asking for this machine-gun, I think M-53. I
18 didn't know about it but there was a man later who knew
19 where this machine-gun was. So he kept insisting to me
20 to tell him where it was. He kept beating me. I fell
21 down several times, losing consciousness. He would
22 raise me again and continue to beat me.
23 When he had had enough -- well, that took a long
24 time -- I could barely get back to the hangar. The
25 prisoner next to me, Jovan Kuljanin, he said he was
1 counting the blows and I had received over 200 of them,
2 up to 250. I was all black and blue so that after a
3 period of time following that I was immobile. I could
4 not get up. They had to help me. I had water and
5 I would put some water on my pants, on my calves, so
6 that the swelling would subside somewhat, so that these
7 haematomas, these bruises, would go away.
8 Q. Could you say approximately when did this incident
9 happen, at least in which month?
10 A. I think this was in June, end of June, the second part
11 of June.
12 Q. Okay. Then can you describe then any further incidents
13 you suffered personally?
14 A. I was constantly a victim of Zenga's. Every time he
15 would walk into the hangar, when he would walk from
16 prisoner to prisoner, he would come to me and he would
17 order me to get up and do push-ups. He would count and
18 as he was counting, he would kick me in my ribs. So
19 I would have to do ten push-ups. I would have to do 50
20 of them in order to get ten correct ones according to
21 him. He kept kicking me all the time.
22 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything in doing that to you usually?
23 A. Rarely.
24 Q. I didn't get the translation of this.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Rarely.
1 A. Rarely. Rarely.
2 MR. TURONE: Can you say then anything about any further
3 incident you suffered personally?
4 A. My next -- how shall I put it -- duel with Landzo was
5 some time in mid-July. He came to the spot where
6 I was. He had me get up and said to other prisoners:
7 "You'll see what's going to be left of him". I thought
8 that he was going to kill me, but he brought me to the
9 door. We did not go out. He just brought me to the
10 corner there, and he ordered me to kneel down. I knelt
12 He poured gasoline. I saw there was a bottle for
13 the lighter. He had pincers and he started heating
14 these pincers. He asked me: "Where's Mico?" I didn't
15 know at that time what Mico he was referring to. Only
16 later I understood who it was and I told him that I
17 didn't know. When he heated these pincers enough, he
18 started -- he ordered me to open my mouth, to stick out
19 my tongue, and then he started squeezing it on my tongue
20 (indicating). He started burning my tongue. It was
21 like being grilled. Then on the nose, and then at one
22 point he went into the ear. He stuck the pincers and
23 I felt a great pain and I screamed. I realised -- and
24 something started rumbling in my head, and all this was
25 observed by one of the guards. I think it was Salko,
1 and he said: "Here comes Pavo". He ordered me to go back
2 to my place immediately and he ran out.
3 Later some prisoners -- one of them got some
4 yoghurt and one of them gave it to me so that I would
5 alleviate my pain and also the temperature. It took at
6 least a month before all this was healed. Only about
7 20 days later did I -- was I allowed to go and be
8 examined, and this was after Zenga was removed from the
9 camp. He was chased from the camp. I think Pavo did
10 that. There was a visit by Dr. Relja Mrkajic and Petko
11 Grubac. After their intervention I was taken to the
12 infirmary. I had pus coming out of my ear all the
13 time. Relja told me at that time and he said my ear
14 drum had been ruptured.
15 Q. Thank you. Is there any other episode, any other
16 incident you suffered personally you can remember and
18 A. There were these collective beatings. These collective
19 beatings -- now this was just the row that I was in.
20 Somebody was talking a bit louder and Delic came in the
21 door and asked then a Cecez whom he had appointed as
22 sort of like room leader. He said: "Who is making
23 noise here?" He sort of just pointed to our row. He
24 had a baseball bat in his hand. He ordered us to get
25 up, facing the wall, and he beat us. I don't know how
1 many times he beat everyone. He hit me twice. After
2 these collective beatings there were others.
3 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Did Mr. Delic say anything in
4 doing that, in beating you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Please go ahead to the next incident.
7 A. The next collective beating was following 12th July.
8 Later we found out that on that day --
9 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. By the way, when approximately
10 did the first collective beating you just said take
12 A. Some time in early July, early in July.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. The next collective beating was immediately following
15 the 12th, so that was on 13th July, and later we found
16 out that a group of Muslim police in Bradina was
17 killed. There was a duel among them, and then they
18 tried to blame all this on us. So we had several
19 collective beatings. It was mostly done by Delic.
20 When he would get tired, someone else would take over,
21 either Landzo or Kemal Bendzic or another one whose
22 nickname was Focak -- we didn't know his name -- or some
23 others. These collective beatings went on for a very
24 long time.
25 Q. Any other incident after this?
1 A. The next collective beating was after the visit of the
2 International Red Cross. The International Red Cross
3 came to us in August -- I think it was 12th August --
4 and delegates -- the representatives of the Red Cross
5 entered the hangar and instructed the guards to get out,
6 but they probably were listening to what we were
8 The Red Cross registered us at that time. They
9 distributed cards that we filled out, and that was a
10 sign of registration. They asked about conditions.
11 We talked about the behaviour of the guards. After
12 their departure, and it was close to dusk, at one point
13 Delic came in with a group of -- I'd say 12 soldiers.
14 He split them into two groups and ordered the ones
15 against the wall to face it, to sit down and put hands
16 like this (indicating). Then kicking started, so to
17 speak. All the guards went one by one and everybody
18 was kicked several times. I think I received about 20
19 blows to my kidney area at that time, and Delic was then
20 commanding, and he had some favourites, and he would
21 say: "Pass this one over." So these would be passed
22 over. After it was done, he ordered: "Turn around."
23 We did and they left the room. They left the hangar,
24 that is.
25 The next collective beating was some time in
1 September, when they found playing cards which we --
2 makeshift playing cards which we had made out of
3 cardboard to pass the time. Delic and some other guards
4 beat us at that time with shovel handles and other
5 tools, and that also went on for a long time, and we
6 were all beaten. In the end I was brought out together
7 with a few others. I don't know the names. I know
8 that one of them was Damjan Dordic.
9 He brought us out of the hangar. He put us
10 against a wall and he ordered some guards to beat us.
11 I saw that I was being beaten by Seki -- that's his
12 nickname and last name Pajic. He said: "Sorry, buddy",
13 because, you know, we were good friends. He said:
14 "I'll beat you lightly."
15 However, one of the guards, Zajko Camdzic said:
16 "What are you stroking him for?", and Zajko Camdzic, he
17 beat me with a plank which was 10 by 5 cm., which was
18 used to prop the door. So at that moment -- how shall
19 I put it -- I relieved myself in my pants, and I said:
20 "Well, I'm finished now. Beat me." Then he said:
21 "Look, the Cetnik has shat". Then he ordered someone
22 to bring water for me to wash up and I did.
23 Q. When you say: "He said: 'Look ...'", etc., who is the
24 person you are talking about when you say "he"?
25 A. It was Delic, about me, because at that time I had
1 relieved myself in my pants.
2 Q. Is there any other incident concerning you personally
3 during the period of your stay?
4 A. The next incident was after another visit by the Red
5 Cross. I guess the International Red Cross ordered of
6 them or requested of them when there was only a small
7 group of prisoners that remained to put up beds for us,
8 and when they were doing that, then there was another
9 beating, and Delic brought me out at that time and beat
10 me together with another group of about ten prisoners.
11 They were kicking us in the kidney area and in the
13 Q. Can you say approximately when did this happen?
14 A. This was some time in October. I'm not sure but
15 I think it was in October. I'd say late October.
16 Either late October or early November, somewhere around
18 Q. Was there any other incident you suffered personally, or
19 was this the last --
20 A. The last collective beating took place on 1st December,
21 when we had already been moved to Number 22. This
22 group of 32 prisoners. This was during the day, and
23 Delic walked in. He had a note or a letter, and he was
24 looking for Miroslav Boric. He asked him: "Is your
25 wife's name Zora?", and he started reading it, from his
1 letter that his wife Zora in the village of Kukrice is
2 looting Muslim houses and is taunting Muslims. I don't
3 know where this letter had come from.
4 So he took Miroslav Boric out and we heard
5 terrible blows. He was beaten for a while. I did not
6 see by whom, because the door was closed. After a
7 while they shoved him back into the hangar. Then he
8 called -- there was a guard. His nickname was Crni.
9 I think his name was Nermin. He was from the Doboj
10 area. He started selecting particular prisoners and
11 then we heard them -- brought them out. We heard them
12 being beaten. We couldn't see. The door was
13 closed. At one point he came in and he said: "All the
14 ones who had been captured in Ljuta near Kalinovik have
15 to come out." There was a group of prisoners who had
16 been captured there. So out of those 32 it was only
17 four of us who were not beaten and I was one of those
18 lucky ones. This was just before his arrest. He was
19 arrested on 2nd December. We learned that from some
20 guards. That was the happiest news for us.
21 Q. Right, Mr. Dordic. Did you personally during your stay
22 see any mistreatment of any other prisoners, specific
23 mistreatments of any other prisoners while you were in
24 Hangar 6?
25 A. Yes, I saw quite a bit of that.
1 Q. So would you please describe in detail the incidents you
2 observed personally one by one, and can you describe
3 them in detail and possibly in chronological order?
4 A. I can recall certain things in order and some others
5 I may not. I can start in order. You know, you try
6 to forget these things anyway. Let's begin, for
7 instance, with Mrkajic Vukasin.
8 Q. What did you see about this?
9 A. This Mrkajic Vukasin was one of the prisoners that was
10 really tortured a lot. He was always suffering blows
11 especially by Hazim Delic. He would always hit him,
12 almost every time he would come to the hangar. He
13 would at least get a kick or two in the kidney area.
14 Landzo also did the same. On one occasion Landzo tied
15 -- what is it -- a slow-burning fuse around his waist,
16 around the genitals and stuck a piece in his anus, and
17 then he lit the other side, and ordered him to run
18 around, and he did, and when he -- when it reached the
19 end, he started dancing around, and later he let him go.
20 Q. Mr. Dordic, can you say approximately when did this
21 incident happen to Vukasin Mrkajic?
22 A. That was in July. I think it was late July or
23 mid-July, somewhere around there.
24 Q. Did that happen inside the hangar?
25 A. Yes, inside the hangar.
1 Q. Could you personally see the person putting fire on the
3 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Who was this person?
5 A. Landzo, Mr. Landzo.
6 Q. How did the fuse -- was the fuse wrapped around the body
7 of Vukasin Mrkajic while he had dresses -- trousers on
8 or not?
9 A. He took off the trousers and he wrapped it around his
10 bare skin and then after it was wrapped up, he ordered
11 him to put the trousers back on and only one piece would
12 stick out that he would light.
13 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Any other incident you --
14 A. He did the same thing to Risto Vukalo, the same thing
15 with the fuse, same case. He would wrap it around his
16 waist. He would light it in the same manner and he
17 would run around until it was all burnt out. Also
18 Risto Vukalo had to do push-ups, just as I had to, very
19 frequently. He would do push-ups and he would kick him
20 in the ribcage. Once he even beat him with a folded
21 military belt and he ordered him to lie down on the
22 stomach and his back was -- his bare -- he had ordered
23 him to take off his tee shirt and he was beating him on
24 the bare back, and all this was happening inside the
1 Q. Did the incident with the fuse concerning Risto Vukalo
2 take place the same day as the one concerning Vukasin
3 Mrkajic or on different days?
4 A. Different days, I think.
5 Q. The mistreatment was done by the same person?
6 A. Landzo, yes.
7 Q. So can you now describe any further incident concerning
8 other prisoners you might have eyewitnessed?
9 A. The next incident, also with a fuse, was on prisoner
10 Vaso Dordic. He did the same thing, ordered him to
11 pull down the pants. He wrapped fuse around his waist,
12 around his genitals and put -- stuck the end in the
13 anus, and then he had to put on trousers again, and he
14 lit the fuse, and he had to run around until it was
15 burnt out.
16 Q. Mr. Dordic, can you say approximately when did this
17 incident take place, the one concerning Vaso Dordic?
18 A. Some time in July, because he was brought in -- Vaso
19 Dordic was brought in to Celebici camp on 12th July in
20 the evening, at night.
21 Q. Right. Did you -- did these three people receive any
22 medical care after these incidents, as far as you know?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did Mr. Landzo say anything doing all this to these
25 people during these incidents?
1 A. He was saying something to Vaso but I don't know what.
2 I was far away. At the time when he was doing it, he
3 was telling him something but I don't know what it was.
4 Q. All right then. Is there any other incident concerning
5 other prisoners you saw?
6 A. For instance, two brothers, Veso and Vaso Dordic, on one
7 occasion -- Zenga abused them badly inside and outside
8 of the hangar. Once he entered the hangar, ordered
9 them both to get up. They did.
10 Q. When you say "he entered the hangar", who do you mean?
11 A. I mean Landzo. I'm talking about Landzo. He entered
12 the hangar. He ordered these two brothers to get up.
13 They got up. They stepped aside. I don't know who he
14 ordered first to kneel down. He ordered the other one
15 to take off the pants and then he ordered him to put his
16 genital in the mouth. That went on for a couple of
17 moments, I don't know how long. Then he switched them,
18 so that the other brother was doing the same thing. He
19 laughed at that and he was telling them something.
20 That was Zenga.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will break now and come
22 back at 12.
23 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.
24 (11.30 am)
25 (Short break)
1 (12.00 noon)
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can carry on.
3 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.
4 So, Mr. Dordic, you were talking about an incident
5 concerning Vaso and Veseljko Dordic. Can you say --
6 the oral sex incident. Can you say where exactly did
7 that happen inside the hangar?
8 A. Just in front of where they were sitting, almost right
9 next to the entrance.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you hear Mr. Landzo saying anything
11 during this incident?
12 A. He was laughing and saying something, but I didn't
13 understand what.
14 Q. Okay. So is there any other incident concerning other
15 prisoners you might have eyewitnessed personally?
16 A. There was, with Dusko Bendjo. He also suffered from
17 Zenga. Zenga humiliated him terribly within the hangar
18 and outside it. In the hangar Zenga would burn Dusko
19 Bendjo. He would force him -- no, not burn him, sorry
20 -- he would force him to do push-ups while he was
21 hitting him in his ribs. Then he called him out once,
22 took him outside, and after some time when Zenga brought
23 Dusko Bendjo back into the hangar, his trousers were on
24 fire. One leg -- I think it was one trouser leg, his
25 right one, I think. Zenga was standing at the door and
1 he said that no-one may extinguish it. He sat down and
2 the trousers burnt until they were extinguished of their
3 own. When Zenga left, his brother, Dusko's brother,
4 and some others took off his trousers, what was left of
5 them, and they saw large burns, wounds on his legs.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we are getting to a point where
7 he is starting to talk about what other people heard and
8 saw. He's not testified that he saw any burns or
9 wounds, but he says: "They saw." I would just like the
10 court to remind him that he is permitted to talk about
11 what he saw, and if the prosecution wants to introduce
12 what someone else said they saw, then they have to go
13 through the proper foundation.
14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ask him whether he saw the instances
15 he is describing.
16 MR. TURONE: Mr. Dordic, did you personally see the leg of
17 Mr. Bendjo?
18 A. Yes, because he was about 6 to 7 metres away from me --
19 in fact, even less than that, because his position where
20 he sat was not very far from me.
21 Q. So could you --
22 A. He was just across the way.
23 Q. So could you personally observe details of how this leg
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. Can you describe this leg?
2 A. There were big blisters, so big (indicating), on his leg
3 from his thighs right down to the lower leg on the front
5 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Dordic. So is there any
6 other incident concerning a prisoner, another prisoner,
7 you could eyewitness yourself in part or in all?
8 A. On one occasion Zenga -- actually, he was constantly
9 taunting and beating Nedjelko Draganic. On one
10 occasion he took him out, and when Nedjelko returned, we
11 saw that -- I think it was his left trouser leg that had
12 been burnt as far as the knee almost, and on the lower
13 leg we saw a big wound, a big blister of this size. He
14 was maybe 3 metres away from me, maybe even less. He
15 told me that Zenga had poured him with gasoline.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me. I asked a moment ago that the
17 witness be instructed not to testify what other people
18 told him. I wish the prosecution would be more careful
19 with that and at least establish the proper foundation
20 who it was who told him and whether or not reliability
21 can be established for that. That's my objection.
22 MR. TURONE: May I respond, your Honour? The witness is
23 describing what he saw with his eyes concerning the leg
24 of Mr. Nedjelko Draganic. So my question is: could you
25 see personally the leg of Mr. Draganic when he came back
1 into the hangar?
2 A. Yes, and I also watched him for the next month at least,
3 because he was 2 or 3 metres away from me.
4 Q. Right. Thank you. Did Mr. Nedjelko Draganic and
5 Mr. Dusan Bendjo receive any medical care after these
7 A. This prisoner, prisoner Bendjo, maybe after some time we
8 treated him ourselves with primitive ways. One of the
9 prisoners had some toothpaste on him, and he put it over
10 his wounds, over the blisters, which burst later on, so
11 these wounds took a long time to heal. Nedjelko
12 Draganic, not straightaway, but a couple of days later
13 was taken to the doctors. They cleaned it up,
14 I suppose -- I don't know what -- because the wound had
15 become infected.
16 Q. Again about Mr. Draganic, right after he returned to the
17 hangar, did Mr. Draganic say immediately what had
18 happened to him outside?
19 A. Yes, he told us immediately, and we saw anyway that his
20 leg had been burnt, that he had -- and he told us that
21 it was Zenga who had done it.
22 Q. All right. Any other incident concerning other
23 mistreatments to other prisoners inside Hangar 6?
24 A. On one occasion Zenga came through the door and he
25 stopped in front of Momir Kuljanin's place. He took
1 him out. I don't know what he did to him, but when
2 Momir Kuljanin came back, he had a terrible blister on
3 his hand this size (indicating). This was 5 or 6
4 metres from me. I can show you where he sat. He told
5 us that Zenga had heated a knife on a flame and that he
6 had forced him to hold that knife with his hand.
7 Q. Did Mr. Momir Kuljanin receive any medical care after
8 this incident, as far as you know?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you personally eyewitness, observe any other
11 mistreatment besides what you said so far?
12 A. There was a lot of that. I could start telling you
13 about it. Each time Hazim Delic entered the hangar,
14 because he came as a big boss -- he always had two
15 pistols at his belt. Sometimes he was wearing a
16 camouflage uniform, sometimes in black. He often came
17 with a gun with his fingers on the trigger. On one
18 occasion he was holding the gun up. He fired. The
19 bullet hit the roof. It splintered, and on that
20 occasion a piece of the bullet hit Davor Kuljanin on the
21 forehead, Branko Mladic on his finger, and Momcilo
22 Mrkajic somewhere here in the neck. He took them out
23 immediately to the infirmary, to the doctor. They took
24 out the shrapnel. I didn't see it, but that's what
25 I was told. The shards were taken out.
1 Q. Did you observe any other incident concerning other
2 prisoners while you were in Hangar 6 besides all this?
3 A. Whenever he came to the hangar --
4 Q. Excuse me. When you say "he came", who do you mean?
5 A. Whenever Delic entered the hangar, and he would come
6 five or six times a day -- I'm talking about Delic -- he
7 would come five or six times a day, and almost every
8 time he would pick out Nedjelko Samoukovic because he
9 was next to the wall. He would order him to turn
10 around and he would hit him with his legs. He would
11 kick him, or with a baseball bat in the kidney area and
12 in the genitals. He would do this almost on a daily
13 basis until Nedjelko was transferred somewhere in July
14 to Number 9, as they called the popular tunnel. Later
15 when he was brought back from Number 9, when Nedjelko
16 Samoukovic was transferred on 31st August again, then
17 Delic continued to do that almost on a daily basis.
18 Q. Is this all you can say about mistreatments of other
19 prisoners, or is there any other incident you might
20 describe without entering into the issues concerning
21 people who died, I mean?
22 A. There were daily incidents. Principally, on one
23 occasion Landzo came in. He was walking from one
24 prisoner to the next and he reached the position of
25 Milivoj Gligorevic. This was 2 metres or 1.5 metres
1 away from me. He made -- he ordered him to turn around
2 to face the wall in his sitting position. He took a
3 shoe and ordered Boro Koprivica to hit him with the shoe
4 on the body. Boro Koprivica, when he was arrested,
5 suffered terrible injuries, so that he was
6 off-balance. He started hitting him lightly, and then
7 he ordered him to hit him much harder. He took the
8 shoe away from him and showed him how he should hit him
9 and then he did. After some time he ordered them to
11 There were other such cases. For instance, Zenga
12 once reached a father and son, Danilo and Miso
13 Kuljanin. He ordered them to get up and start hitting
14 each other. At first they did it lightly. Then he
15 ordered them to do it harder, and so they had to do as
16 Zenga told them. So this went on for some ten minutes,
17 this mutual beating. Then Zenga, Landzo, did the same
18 with two brothers, Vaso and Veso. All this was
19 happening inside the hangar. He also ordered them to
20 get up and slap each other, which they did. Mutual
21 slapping ordered by Zenga had to be done by two cousins,
22 Momir Mrkajic and Goran Mrkajic. This same kind of
23 slapping upon Zenga's orders was carried out by Kuljanin
24 Branislav and somebody called Ristic, whose first name
25 I cannot recall, and there were other such instances.
1 Once Landzo Zenga ordered Dragan Gligorevic to hit
2 individual prisoners, which he refused to do, because he
3 said: "You can hit me, but I won't do that."
4 Q. Mr. Dordic, do you know now anything because of your
5 direct knowledge about the circumstances of the death of
6 any prisoner inside the camp?
7 A. I know quite a bit about it. For instance, regarding
8 the death of Miso Kuljanin I think that was the Muslim
9 holiday, Kurban Bajram, and they were looking for a
10 victim. Zenga came through the door and called out for
11 a volunteer. As Miso Kuljanin was known as the
12 volunteer, he got up and went out. After a few minutes
13 we heard a shot. Three prisoners --
14 Q. Yes. Go ahead, please.
15 A. A couple of minutes later three prisoners who were using
16 the toilet outside and they ran in and showed us with
17 their fingers --
18 Q. Excuse me. Wait a minute. Maybe it's better you
19 follow my question. So you said you heard a shot
20 coming from outside; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. After how long did you hear the shot from outside after
23 Milorad Kuljanin going outside?
24 A. It could have been two or three minutes later.
25 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that happen?
1 Do you remember?
2 A. Somewhere in the morning, before noon. We didn't have
3 a watch, so we could tell the time by the weather.
4 Q. All right. Did you have any chance to see Mico
5 Kuljanin again after that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. As far as you know, was there any other prisoner from
8 Hangar 6 outside at the time you heard the shot?
9 A. Yes. There were three prisoners.
10 Q. Do you personally know these three people?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you say their names?
13 A. Momir Mrkajic, Janko Glogovaz and Zjelko Cecez, known as
14 the Spaniard, who was killed that same day, only in the
16 Q. These three people were prisoners as you, detained in
17 Hangar 6; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Did these three prisoners come back into the hangar
20 after the shot you heard?
21 A. Yes. They ran in and they showed us with their hand as
22 if a trigger.
23 Q. Let me ask you, please, Mr. Dordic. Did they come back
24 into the hangar together?
25 A. All three of them together, yes.
1 Q. How long after the shot did they come back together into
2 the hangar?
3 A. A couple of seconds, maybe a couple of minutes.
4 Q. And what did these three people do right after coming
5 into the hangar again?
6 A. They showed us with their fingers that he had been
7 killed, that he had been killed.
8 Q. Was Janko Glogovaz, or Momir Mrkajic, or Zeljko Cecez
9 showing this to you or all three of them?
10 A. All three were showing it like this (indicating).
11 Q. Did any of them ever tell you more precisely what was
12 the fate of Milorad Kuljanin, I mean how and by whom he
13 was shot?
14 A. Yes, they did. Momir Mrkajic told me the story, who
15 was the best man of Miso Kuljanin.
16 Q. What did he tell you?
17 A. He said that he had been killed by Eso, known as
19 Q. All right. Then let's remain now on this very morning,
20 late morning, when Miso Kuljanin was shot. Did Janko
21 Glogovaz, Momir Mrkajic and Zeljko Cecez have any other
22 occasion to go out of the hangar after this incident the
23 same day?
24 A. After some time Eso Macic, known as Makaron, and Zenga
25 came through the door and they were looking for three
1 men. They went out. Then they came back shortly
3 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that occur?
4 A. It's difficult to tell. Maybe about two hours after
5 this murder. How can I tell the time when I didn't
6 have a watch? I know it was during that day.
7 Q. That's quite fair, Mr. Dordic. Thank you. So you say
8 these three people remained outside for a very short
9 time. So how long did they stay outside approximately?
10 A. About ten minutes on the outside.
11 Q. Did any of them say right after entering again into the
12 hangar -- did any of them say what just happened to them
13 outside in those ten minutes?
14 A. I took a risk. I risked being beaten and I went up to
15 Momir Mrkajic, because his sister is my wife, and
16 I asked him: "What did they ask you?" He told me: "They
17 asked us whether we had seen anything." "And what did
18 you say?" "And me and Janko said we hadn't seen
19 anything. Zeljko said that he had seen Eso Macic
20 killing Miso."
21 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. What happened after that? Did
22 any other incident take place that same day?
23 A. In the evening Zeljko Cecez -- somebody came to the
24 door. It was already dark and we could recognise Zenga
25 by his voice, because he has a specific voice. As soon
1 as we heard his voice, we would try and cover ourselves
2 up, knowing what was going to happen. Then they called
3 him out. He went out, and we could hear terrible blunt
5 Q. You mean they called out whom?
6 A. Zeljko Cecez. He went out and we heard these very hard
7 blunt blows and his moans. This playing with him
8 outside took about almost an hour. We couldn't really
9 tell, but roughly about that long. He was moaning and
10 crying, but they kept on hitting him. At one point the
11 door opened as it was dark. He was probably pushed
12 through the door. We heard him continuing to moan and
13 by his voice we knew that he was moving somehow. He
14 reached his position, the position allotted to him. He
15 started begging for water. He swore at us, asking us
16 to give him water. Not one of the prisoners dared to
17 give him anything, even if they had something to give.
18 After some time these painful moans ceased and in
19 the morning when it dawned I saw him. It was right in
20 front of me that Zeljko Cecez was lying on his
21 stomach. He was barefooted. He had nothing on his
22 legs. He was lying on his stomach. He had a
23 yellow -- the yellow colour of death. I saw that he
24 wasn't moving and I realised that he was dead.
25 We were all shivering with fear. We didn't dare
1 even look, because few of us had contact with dead
2 people. We are afraid of corpses. He lay there in
3 our midst for three or four hours, maybe even longer.
4 Nenad Cecez asked the guards that somebody should come
5 and carry him out and in the morning somewhere around
6 9 o'clock or 10 o'clock this was done. He was carried
7 out and that was the last time I saw him, when he was
8 carried out.
9 Q. So, Mr. Dordic, how long could you observe the body
10 remaining motionless in the hangar that morning?
11 A. For about four or five hours at least. I don't know
12 exactly. As again, I said no watch, but it was a long
14 Q. Could you observe personally that during that time the
15 body didn't have any movement?
16 JUDGE JAN: This is what he has already said.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE JAN: That is what he has already said.
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 MR. TURONE: Did anybody order to remove the body?
21 A. Yes. Hazim Delic came and ordered Nenad Cecez and some
22 others to carry him out, and they did.
23 Q. Was this the last time that you saw the body of this
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Could you personally observe any other
2 incident which led to the death of a prisoner?
3 A. Yes. There were quite a few such cases. The next case
4 was with Scepo Gotovac. This Scepo Gotovac was an
5 elderly man, around 70 years old, maybe even older.
6 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Can you say approximately when
7 did this incident happen?
8 A. I think some time in June, end of June. I think that's
9 where it was.
10 Q. All right. Can you go ahead?
11 A. Scepo Gotovac was right next to the door and during the
12 day Hazim Delic came in. He carried a piece of paper
13 in his hand. He told Scepo Gotovac to get up and he
14 did. Hazim started reading something to the effect
15 that Scepo Gotovac some time in November 1942 or 1943 --
16 I don't know exactly -- at that same spot right where
17 this hangar was, at that spot that he had killed two
18 Muslims and that he was going to finish at the same
20 He begged him and he swore that he didn't do that,
21 but this one did not believe it. So he started beating
22 him. Then he was taken out. That is Delic took him
23 outside. Outside blunt blows could be heard and that
24 went on for about half an hour, maybe even longer. He
25 kept moaning. We kept hearing these blunt blows. At
1 one point he -- the door opened and he was pushed
2 inside, inside the hangar. He lay down.
3 Q. Excuse me. Did you see who put him inside the hangar?
4 A. He entered on all fours. He lay there practically
5 immobile and moaning and then during the evening --
6 I know by the voice, because I heard it -- I heard that
7 Landzo came to the door. He opened the door and he
8 called Scepo out. He said: "Scepo, come out", and he
9 said: "I can't. Kill me here."
10 Then he ordered some prisoners to carry him out.
11 I think Novo Zelenovic and another one carried him out
12 because Novo Zelenovic was right there at the door.
13 Again we could hear terrible blows, his moans, and after
14 a while these moans stopped. We heard the door open
15 and these two -- Zenga called out these two prisoners to
16 carry him in. They did that.
17 He ordered -- at that time he ordered that nobody
18 could take off something that was on his forehead, but
19 we didn't know what it was. In the morning he lay
20 there motionless. He was all yellowish and black and
21 blue. He had a badge on. I think it was either an
22 SDS badge or something. I don't know. It was pinned
23 to his forehead or nailed to his forehead. I went out
24 to urinate and I saw him. I was about 1 metre away
25 from him. This body was left there for two or three
1 hours and then Nenad Cecez again called the guards to
2 have him removed, and then he was removed and that is
3 the last that I saw of him.
4 Q. Mr. Dordic, what was the position inside the hangar where
5 Gotovac used to sit?
6 A. Right next to the door. He was the first one going up
7 from the door to the right.
8 Q. You said you could see his body going the next morning
9 outside to urinate; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you observe the body in this occasion with some
12 care? Can you describe it?
13 A. Black and blue and also yellowish, as a dead man, and he
14 lay motionless.
15 Q. Was this the time when you could see something on your
16 forehead (sic)?
17 A. Yes, there was a badge of some sort. I think it was an
18 SDS badge. That would be the Serbian Democratic Party
19 badge. It was like this.
20 Q. Besides the chance you had to see him from a very close
21 position going outside to urinate, did you have a chance
22 to observe the body from your position while you were
23 sitting in your position in the --
24 A. Yes. Yes, I could.
25 Q. Could you observe the body remaining motionless for a
1 significant time?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How long could you observe the body remaining motionless
4 in the hangar?
5 A. Two or three hours.
6 Q. Can you say at what time was the body removed
8 A. Somewhere around 8 o'clock at the latest.
9 Q. Did anybody order to remove the body?
10 A. Yes. Delic came and some guards and they ordered it to
11 be carried out after the request of Nenad Cecez, because
12 if you were to request something of the guards, from the
13 guards, that would all go through Nenad Cecez.
14 Q. This was the last time you saw the body of this person;
15 is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. Could you personally observe
18 any other incident which led to the death of a prisoner?
19 A. Just two or three days after the murder of Scepo Gotovac
20 we heard some screams outside, and we knew that somebody
21 came in, but didn't know who it was. Only in the
22 morning we saw, and I knew this Nedjo Milosevic
23 personally. He sat almost at the same spot where Scepo
24 Gotovac used to sit. I saw him all black and blue,
25 beaten up, and he lay there nearly motionless. He
1 spent the whole day there and in the evening hours Zenga
2 opened the door came to Nedjo and said: "Nedjo, come on
3 out." Nedjo said he couldn't. Then Zenga ordered two
4 prisoners to carry him out, which they did. Outside a
5 terrible beating started. We heard blows, his moans,
6 and after about 20 minutes or half an hour, it all
7 stopped. He fell silent and the door never opened. I
8 don't know what happened to him. He was probably
10 Q. Any other incident you could personally observe which
11 led to the death of a prisoner?
12 A. Simo Jovanovic.
13 Q. Can you approximately say when did this incident happen?
14 A. Sometime at the end of June or early July, around
15 them. Simo Jovanovic had been taken out in the evening
16 several times. Usually it was a neighbour of his, who
17 was from the same village that he was from. I think
18 his name was Adam Cosic. For the most part Zenga was
19 also with him. This Cosic would say: "Come on,
20 neighbour. I have something to tell you." Then he
21 would come out and then you could hear terrible blows
22 outside. He would be moaning and then after a while he
23 would be brought back in. This happened several times
24 over a period of about ten days.
25 Then on one occasion the door opened and Adem
1 Cosic walked in, came pretty close to Simo, and Zenga
2 stood at the door, and he said: "Simo, come on out."
3 Simo somehow got out. We could hear blunt blows, his
4 moans, and after a while the door opened again.
5 Apparently he was ordered to come back in and Simo
6 somehow came in, came to his place. It was already
7 dark by that time. We could not see how he was
8 walking. We heard -- we knew approximately where his
9 spot was. We could hear those painful grunts and moans
10 and he asked for help. After a while everything became
11 quiet and in the morning, when it dawned, we saw Simo
12 lying motionless. We realised that he was dead.
13 Q. Mr. Dordic, focusing on the last time Simo Jovanovic was
14 called out of the hangar on the last evening, can you
15 say approximately at what time he was called outside
16 that last occasion?
17 A. It was the early dusk. I don't know what time.
18 Around 9.00, maybe even earlier.
19 Q. When he, Simo Jovanovic, came back into the hangar after
20 this last occasion and reached his position inside the
21 hangar, can you say where was his position inside the
22 hangar with respect to your position?
23 A. Like this (indicating). I was here and he was around
24 here somewhere.
25 Q. You could tell us in terms of how many metres
2 A. If the hangar was 25 metres long, he could have been
3 10-12 metres away from me, somewhere midway, maybe a bit
4 further away.
5 Q. So there was a time that night or in the morning when
6 you could observe clearly Mr. Jovanovic or his body with
7 some attention?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When was that? In the morning?
10 A. In the morning, when it dawned, around 5 o'clock, maybe
11 even before.
12 Q. Could you describe the body as you could see it from
13 your position?
14 A. It was mostly yellowish and black and blue, the parts of
15 the body that could be seen.
16 Q. Did the body have any movement or was that motionless?
17 A. Motionless.
18 Q. Was that body removed later on?
19 A. Yes, after two or three hours, again on the request of
20 Nenad Cecez, they came and carried him away.
21 Q. So how long could you observe the body remaining
22 motionless in the hangar that morning?
23 A. Two or three hours.
24 Q. Did anybody order to remove the body?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was that?
2 A. Delic.
3 Q. Was this the last time you saw the body of Jovanovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Any other incidents -- could
6 you personally observe any other incident which led to
7 the death of a prisoner?
8 A. Relating to the death, the death of Bosko Samoukovic.
9 I remember that very well. The date, it was 17th July
10 in the morning hours. After the incident between the
11 -- among the Muslim army, we had these collective
12 beatings and on that day Zenga came in and ordered us
13 all from Bradina to get up. We all got up. At one
14 point one of the prisoners -- this was Nedjo Gligorevic
15 said: "There are those who did not get up." He said:
16 "Who?" He pointed to Bosko Samoukovic.
17 Zenga ordered us all to sit down and him to get
18 up. He started towards him about 2 metres. Zenga
19 started beating him. He beat him with all kinds of
20 things. At one point he came to the door. He went to
21 the door and picked up the plank that was used to prop
22 the door up. It was long, about 2 metres, and it was
23 about 5, 6 cm. wide. It was something like 5 by 10,
24 about that. He beat him all over the body. At one
25 point he hit him in the back of the head. He fell
2 He apparently saw that he had lost consciousness
3 and he ordered a prisoner who was a medical nurse to
4 help him. He tried to -- I guess to pull out the
5 tongue. He did not succeed. That's what he told us
6 later. He did not succeed. Then he called in some
7 prisoners to carry him to the infirmary and this would
8 be all I know.
9 Q. Excuse me. Mr. Dordic, how long did the beating of
10 Bosko Samoukovic last on this occasion?
11 A. You know, the way we would experience this, that it went
12 on for hours, but it could have been just fifteen
13 minutes tops, maybe even less.
14 Q. Did Zenga say anything while beating Mr. Samoukovic?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Was any relative of Mr. Samoukovic also in the hangar?
17 A. There were two sons of his, Milan and Nedeljko
18 Samoukovic. Nedeljko, I think, was just two or three
19 places away from him and the other one was just a little
20 bit further away. Delic walked in, stood in front of
21 Samoukovic. Nedeljko Samoukovic asked -- he said:
22 "Sir, can you please tell me what happened to my
23 father?" Delic said: "He died."
24 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Did you personally observe in
25 all or in part any other incident which led to the death
1 of a person, of a prisoner?
2 A. Some time in early August -- I think it was towards the
3 evening; it was still light -- the door opened, and at
4 the door -- in fact, Delic and Emir Kovacic, called
5 Skema, walked in. Emir asked for Keljo, that is Zeljko
6 Klimenta. He responded and Delic asked Emir: "What do
7 you want with him?" Delic answered -- Delic said: "You
8 don't need to give him cigarettes, because he's not
9 going to live to see the morning." Then he said
10 something else. He started towards Zeljko Klimenta and
11 he tossed him the pack of cigarettes. He came up to
12 halfway into the hangar. Then they left the hangar.
13 The following morning as soon as it dawned, around
14 5 o'clock, I had just woken up, a guard came in and
15 asked Keljo to come out. He said: "Keljo, come out.
16 Let's light up." Keljo walked out and with him Miodrag
17 Kujundzic, called Garo, and Nenad Cecez. We heard them
18 even laughing.
19 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Dordic. Do you personally know these two
20 other people, Garo Kujundzic and Nenad Cecez?
21 A. Yes. Nenad Cecez is a relative of mine and Garo
22 Kujundzic was a soccer player in a local soccer club in
23 Igman in Konjic, so I knew him personally.
24 Q. Do you know the reason why they also went outside the
25 hangar together with Klimenta?
1 A. I don't know, no.
2 Q. Anyway --
3 A. This Nenad Cecez could -- was free to walk out any time,
4 because he was some kind of a leader. He was appointed
5 to that position by Hazim Delic.
6 Q. So anyway Klimenta went outside with these two people.
7 What could you hear then after that?
8 A. We heard them laughing about something, and then at one
9 point a shot rang out. Immediately following that
10 shot, the door opened abruptly and Garo Kujundzic ran
11 inside holding his head in his hands and said: "They
12 just killed Keljo." We said: "Who?" He said:
14 Q. Did you ever have any chance to see Klimenta again after
16 A. No.
17 Q. Approximately at what time of the day did that happen?
18 A. In the morning, around 5 o'clock.
19 Q. Did any of these two people, either Garo Kujundzic or
20 Nenad Cecez, ever tell you more precisely what was the
21 fate of Klimenta and how it happened that he was shot?
22 A. Garo on one occasion only said that this -- that he was
23 playing with a rifle, a semi-automatic rifle. He put
24 it against his temple, didn't know that it had not been
25 locked and then he just pulled the trigger.
1 Q. So is this all? Did you eyewitness any other death
2 besides what you already said?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So, Mr. Dordic, did you know Delic from before the war?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you explain how and what relationship, if any, you
7 had with him?
8 A. I knew him only by sight and I knew his name, because he
9 went to the same school with my brother. They were
10 about the same class. I know that he was a machinist
11 by training and he worked in a company -- lumber
12 company. I know that just before the war he opened up
13 a little shop. He used to come to Boro Golubovic's
14 cafe. He was one of the first ones to start wearing a
15 green beret in Konjic at the time. I don't know if
16 that is some kind of a military formation, the Green
17 Berets or the Patriotic League. I don't know which
18 one. I know that he's married. I know where his wife
19 is from. I know that he has a small son, Hazim. At
20 that time he was about four or five years old. On one
21 occasion he even brought him to the Celebici camp, and
22 he said something like this: "Little Hazim wants to see
23 the Cetnik Goja". This was Goja who used to work with
24 him in the same company.
25 Q. All right, Mr. Dordic. Did you know Mr. Landzo from
1 before the war?
2 A. Just by sight. You know, I was a waiter and waiters
3 get to know almost everyone in the city. I didn't know
4 his name or his nickname. I only found out in Celebici
5 that his name was Landzo.
6 Q. What role did you observe Delic having in the Celebici
8 A. As the guards who were the real guards, as they told us
9 -- they told us that he was the Deputy Commander of the
10 camp, Deputy Commander.
11 Q. So how frequently did you see Mr. Delic inside the camp?
12 A. Almost every day, at least three times, until his arrest
13 by the Muslims, which happened on 2nd December 1992.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Delic Hazim and Landzo Zenga were together detained with
16 us for about three or four months in Musala and the --
17 and it happened so that I would distribute -- give them
18 their food rations and I was more generous to them than
19 they were to me.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we can now break.
21 JUDGE JAN: How long will you take?
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Until 2.30.
23 JUDGE JAN: How long more will you take with him?
24 MR. TURONE: How long? There is about half an hour more,
25 but maybe less.
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will resume at 2.30.
2 (1.00 pm)
3 (Luncheon adjournment)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 (Witness re-enters court)
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is on his oath.
4 THE REGISTRAR: I wish to remind you that you are still
5 testifying under oath.
6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr. Turone, you can continue with your
8 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. So, Mr. Dordic, do you
9 have any knowledge of who was the Commander of the
10 Celebici camp?
11 A. The Commander of the Celebici camp was Zdravko Mucic,
12 better known as Pavo.
13 Q. How do you know that?
14 A. Actually everybody respected him, and when he would
15 come, when there were any transfers to the Sports Hall,
16 he was the one who determined who would go and who would
17 not, and from certain guards.
18 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic in the camp?
19 A. I saw him five or six times.
20 Q. Where did you happen to see him inside the camp?
21 A. In the hangar.
22 Q. And --
23 A. And once in Number 22, better known as the infirmary.
24 Q. Do you remember when you saw Mr. Mucic for the first
25 time, at least in which month?
1 A. I think it was in June. He came in. He just made a
2 couple of steps. He didn't stay long. There were
3 several people with him, but I know that among them was
4 Ivica Buric, the guard. He was carrying a camera and
5 they were filming something. I think it was Ivica
6 Buric who was carrying the camera, not Pavo.
7 Q. Can you say, when Mr. Mucic came into the hangar on other
8 occasions, what he came for?
9 A. The next time, I can't remember exactly whether it was
10 the end of July or the beginning of August, he entered
11 with Hazim Delic. They toured all of us. He stopped
12 in front of me. He asked me: "Did you use to work in
13 the hotel?" I said: "Yes." I suffer from psoriasis and
14 as the conditions were abnormal then and this skin
15 disease had spread all over my arms and face and he
16 asked me: "What's that?" I told him: "You see what it
17 is." Hazim said: "It is Vojvida's brother." Pavo said:
18 "What has that got to do with it? We know each other
19 from before", and he went on.
20 Q. Did Mr. Mucic wear a uniform?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did that happen every time you saw him?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Did you have any other occasion to talk to Mr. Mucic or
25 him to talk to you?
1 A. Only on these occasions. A second time or the third
2 time -- the third time I saw him actually, it was on
3 21st August, when a group of prisoners from Number 9
4 were transferred to Number 6, and a group from Number 6
5 was going to go to the Sports Hall. With him at the
6 time was a prisoner, Zaro Mrkajic, who had just come
7 from Number 9. I assume they were friends. He had to
8 determine which prisoners were going to the Konjic
9 Sports Hall. They went round. They told individuals
10 to get up and sent them outside. Then my turn came.
11 He asked Zaro: "What are we going to do with him?" Zaro
12 said: "Let him go." He told me to go out.
13 Q. Mr. Dordic, did you know Mr. Mucic from before the war?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you explain how and what relationship you had with
16 him, if any?
17 A. I knew him close to fifteen years. Our relations were
18 such we weren't close but we had -- at least five or six
19 times we had drinks together. We had some common
20 friends, like Golemac Miroslav, who asked him to
21 transfer to the Sports Hall and release me. When I saw
22 Miroslav Golemac later on, he told me that the Muslims
23 would not allow this, nor Zejnil Delalic.
24 Q. Do you know who was Mr. Mucic's superior?
25 A. Probably Zejnil Delalic.
1 Q. How do you know that?
2 A. By chance I happen to have worked in the Konjic motel,
3 which is only 30 metres away from his house. There's
4 just the parking space between us, and as the crisis,
5 economic crisis, was considerable, I was working there
6 until 19th April 1992. I could see that the leaders of
7 Konjic were visiting him in his house and we were able
8 to follow this. Then I learned from certain friends
9 that he was the Commander of tactical group number 1.
10 I was some kind of a co-ordinator, because there was no
11 connection with Sarajevo.
12 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Objection, your Honour. The witness has
13 just said he learned from certain friends, from
14 second-hand sources, certain things. My submission is
15 that is inappropriate evidence.
16 MR. TURONE: May I ask who is exactly the person who was
17 talking about that to you, Mr. Dordic?
18 A. I would like him to be anonymous, as he was the
19 commander of a unit and a good friend of mine. If
20 necessary, I can do it in writing. I can submit the
21 name to the judges in writing. It is in the interest
22 of his safety that I do not wish to name him.
23 Q. I beg your pardon for a moment, your Honours. We might
24 even ask this question to the witness in private
25 session, if you allow me?
1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is telling you what someone told
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is still telling you what someone
5 has told him. It doesn't make much of a difference.
6 MR. TURONE: I'll be satisfied with that, your Honour.
7 Let me ask now the question to you, Mr. Dordic: did
8 you ever see Mr. Zejnil Delalic in the camp?
9 A. Once, somewhere in June, the middle of June, I think.
10 He came with a group. He didn't spend much time
11 there. He had an escort with him. I didn't hear what
12 they were saying, and that was all that I heard from
14 Q. Where inside the camp did you see him?
15 A. In Hangar Number 6.
16 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said something already about Red Cross
17 visits. How many times did the Red Cross visit the
19 A. From August, every month. August, September, October,
20 November and December.
21 Q. What happened before or during or after these visits, if
23 A. After Red Cross visits the situation changed to some
24 extent, but not much. At the time I think it was they
25 allowed us to go out into the sunshine, but this meant
1 more suffering than sunning, because Hazim Delic would
2 take us out and in front of the hangar, we would sit
3 there, take our shirts off. We would spend half an
4 hour, an hour -- it depends. The guards would switch
5 on music, their own spiritual Muslim songs, and we had
6 to shout certain slogans. He would ask: "Who is the
7 greatest?", and we had to answer: "Hazim is the
8 greatest!" "Who is the greatest?", and if a well-known
9 Konjic masseur were there, Smajo Kuresan, we would have
10 to say "Smajo is the greatest!", and that sort of thing,
11 or we had to utter -- I think it was a fascist greeting,
12 "Sieg Heil!", or something like that.
13 Q. Mr. Dordic, when did you leave Celebici camp?
14 A. The first time only briefly from 21st August-31st
15 August. That means for ten days only.
16 Q. But after that?
17 A. And after that, after I returned, I left definitively on
18 9th December, when the Celebici camp was dismantled, and
19 I was transferred to the Musala Sports Hall in Konjic.
20 Q. When were you released from any kind of detention?
21 A. Actually I was exchanged on the Bridge that was then
22 known as the Bridge of Serbian Veterans at Gerbaviza on
23 6th October 1994, after spending 860 days in prison.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dordic.
25 So, your Honour, my examination-in-chief is
1 finished. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: How will you take your
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Before I do that, your Honour, just
5 near the end of this examination-in-chief I objected to
6 the witness giving a second-hand account of what he
7 believed Mr. Delalic's role was, and you upheld that
8 objection. I would ask that the record from page 75,
9 line 13 to page 76, line 20, be struck where he gives an
11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The objection is ruled upholding it.
12 Carry on with your arrangement for cross-examination.
13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Very well. The order of cross-examination
14 is the following: first, counsel for Mr. Delic; second,
15 counsel for Mr. Landzo; third, counsel for Mr. Mucic; and,
16 fourth, counsel for Mr. Delalic. Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by MR. MORAN.
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could have a few seconds while
19 I get situated, so I can ...
20 May it please the court.
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can carry on.
22 MR. MORAN: Good afternoon, sir.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I'm Hazim Delic's lawyer. I'm
25 going to ask you some questions and I'm going to ask you
1 if you could listen to the questions and, if you don't
2 understand one of the questions, if you just stop me and
3 I'll clear it up for you, so that we won't have any
4 misunderstandings between ourselves. Can you do that
5 for me?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Another thing I'm going to ask you is if you would
8 listen to the question and just answer the question
9 that's asked you. A good number of them will probably
10 just require a "yes" or "no" answer. Can you do that
11 for me? Can we agree to do that?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. One other thing, sir. There's two young ladies in the
14 courtroom. You can see them. One of them is over
15 there (indicating) and one of them is sitting almost
16 directly in front of Judge Jan. They are what are
17 called court reporters. The rules require that they
18 write down everything that we say. They can't write
19 down a nod. You were kind of nodding a little bit.
20 So we have to answer out. Will you do that, so that
21 the court reporters can get it down?
22 A. Yes, I understand that.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
24 A. Thank you too.
25 Q. Let me just start off with a couple of things about your
1 time when you were in Bradina; okay? When you were part
2 of the defence of Bradina describe for the judges what
3 your uniform looked like.
4 A. Civilian clothes.
5 Q. Well, did you have some kind of armband or something to
6 identify you as a member of an armed unit?
7 A. I was saying civilian clothes. I think I was clear.
8 Q. Okay. So you didn't have any kind of insignia or an
9 armband or anything like that or a badge?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. That's fair enough. The weapon you had, where did you
12 get that weapon?
13 A. Through the black channel, for money. That's how these
14 things worked.
15 Q. That's how everybody got them? You just kind of bought
16 these automatic weapons?
17 A. Some had hunting rifles with a licence. Others went
18 and purchased guns.
19 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to pass you a series of
20 photographs and I'm going to ask you to go through those
21 photographs and see if you can find a weapon that looked
22 like the one that you had. Some of them probably
23 you've never even seen anything like them before, and
24 it's possible that the weapon you had isn't in there,
25 but go through and just see that you can get the one
1 that is the closest to what you had. Take your time on
2 this. (Handed).
3 A. I don't know what this is. I've never seen it. You
4 see, I was a cook in the army, so many weapons I never
6 Q. Well, I was a lawyer --
7 A. This is a machine-gun, a submachine-gun, a new one.
8 Q. Sure. Is that like the one you had?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. Why don't you just go through and just flip through them
11 until you see if you can find one that's similar to the
12 one you had?
13 A. This I also don't know, what type this is.
14 Q. Like I say, I'm sure that there's several weapons in
15 there that you've probably never even seen. Some are
16 old; some are new.
17 A. This is an automatic rifle. I know that, with a wooden
18 butt. This is an automatic rifle with a collapsible
19 butt that I had.
20 Q. Okay. The one that you had, could you leave that one
21 set aside? On the back of that picture there will be a
22 number written. It will be "D" something. Do you see
23 it up on that --
24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is that the type you had? Ask him.
25 MR. MORAN: Do you see the number written on that tag
1 there? If we could have the usher put that on --
2 A. "D15", is that what you mean? It says "D15" here. Is
3 that what you mean?
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This is a photograph.
5 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. I am trying to make sure it
6 can be identified on the record, which one it is.
7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: When he identifies the photograph,
8 then we look at the number attached to it.
9 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. He has identified that one
10 as the one he had.
11 A. I'm not saying that this was the one I had but it was
12 something like this.
13 MR. MORAN: I'm sure it's not the very same one that you
14 had. I'm sure that --
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is what I was commenting. He
16 didn't say it was the one. It looked like the one.
17 MR. MORAN: That's true, your Honour. It's just the type
18 of weapon that we're trying to show. If we can just
19 show that to the court and just bring it up on the
20 screen so that the court can see what it is, I believe
21 this is the weapon Judge Odio Benito had the question
22 about the last time, on the rifle grenade. I believe
23 it's admitted. If it's not, I would move the admission
24 of this photograph.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Has he agreed this is the one -- the
1 type he had?
2 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. No-one is saying that the
3 rifle grenade that's at the bottom of the picture, and
4 I want that to be real clear -- we're not saying he had
5 that. He's saying that the rifle -- if I am correct,
6 sir, the rifle is similar to the one you had?
7 A. No. No. I didn't have the rifle grenade. I just had
8 the gun. I didn't have the rifle grenade.
9 Q. That's correct. I just want to make sure that we're
10 all clear on that. Your Honour, if -- like I say, if
11 that's not in evidence, I move its admission.
12 Could you also continue looking through those
13 photographs and see if there are any other types of
14 weapons in those photographs that other people in
15 Bradina had and just kind of pull those aside?
16 A. This one I don't recognise. I don't know which type
17 this is either. This one I know. It is an automatic
18 rifle. Semi-automatic. This one I don't know. I
19 don't know what this is. I don't know this.
20 Q. By the way, were there other people that had the same
21 kind of weapon you had? Did other people in Bradina
22 have weapons similar to yours?
23 A. Yes, there were.
24 Q. The other thing, there were three photos you set aside
25 up there. Other people in Bradina had weapons that
1 were similar to those, looked like those?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Your Honour, again if we could show those pictures on
4 the ELMO, and I would move the admission of those
5 photos, those three. Sir, if you just hand those three
6 to the usher right next to you, he'll keep them
7 separated out and we can keep track of the numbers that
9 So some people -- how many weapons like that one
10 were there in Bradina, the one that's on the screen
11 right now? Were there a lot of them or just a few of
12 them, or just one of them?
13 A. I know there was one of this kind. I didn't see any
15 Q. Do you know who had that one?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Who was it?
18 A. Zoran Dordic.
19 Q. Zoran Dordic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let us look at the next one. Were there many like that
22 one in Bradina?
23 A. These were the most numerous. Most of them were like
25 Q. About how many people had those?
1 A. I don't know. I really do not know the number.
2 Q. Sure. That's fair. I'm sure that you weren't
3 counting them. Let's look at that last one, the third
4 one there. How many like that were there?
5 A. There were rifles, but not the rifle grenades. There
6 may have been. Not many, not many in any case.
7 Q. All right. Your Honour, if we could have the usher
8 read the numbers on the back of those three photographs
9 -- or I guess it is a total of four now, including the
10 one the witness said was his -- so we can get that in
11 the record and we can find them later.
12 THE USHER: D15/1K.
13 MR. MORAN: D15/1K.
14 THE USHER: D15/1L.
15 MR. MORAN: D15/1L.
16 THE USHER: D15/1H.
17 MR. MORAN: D15/1H.
18 THE USHER: D15/1H.
19 MR. MORAN: H? There is two 1Hs then, are there? Also,
20 your Honour, I would like the record to reflect that the
21 last one that he read the number on was the one that he
22 said was the same or similar to his weapon.
23 A. Not the last one. The first one, what was first shown
24 on the ELMO.
25 Q. Yes, sir, but when the usher read them, he read them in
1 reverse order, the order they were on the ELMO?
2 A. Okay. Okay. I understand.
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: In case of doubt, let him repeat it.
4 MR. MORAN: Let's repeat that. That one the legal officer
5 has in his hand, is that the one that is the same or
6 similar to the one you had?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 MR. MORAN: The number on that exhibit is.
9 THE REGISTRAR: It is D15/1H.
10 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, I would move
11 admission of all four of those in case they aren't
12 admitted. I think I have already done that.
13 When you left Bradina after the battle, you left
14 your weapon in Bradina; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when you were questioned at the camp and led those
17 officers out, those police officers, the MUP, out to
18 recover that weapon, they had a list with serial numbers
19 on it, so they could check they were getting the one
20 that was yours; right?
21 A. No. They did not have a list. They asked me: "Can you
22 remember the serial number of your rifle?" I noticed
23 that there was a serial number there and I said "yes",
24 and I told them the number and they took it.
25 Q. Yes, sir. As I recall, and stop me if I am wrong on
1 this, and I'm flipping through my notes to look for
2 this, as I recall your testimony on direct, there was
3 something about -- you testified that they checked to
4 make sure it was your weapon?
5 A. Yes. They checked. When I said the number -- when
6 I told them the number, they compared it to the number
7 there and that's how it was compared. I thought that
8 I was clear on that.
9 Q. No, you weren't. Thank you for clearing that up for
10 me, sir. By the way, how many rounds of ammunition did
11 you have for that weapon?
12 A. Five clips. That means 150 total. Five times 30,
14 Q. So there were 30-round magazines to go in them?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Let me go off to a different area; okay? A different
17 area which you testified about on direct. After you
18 were arrested, you were taken to -- in a lorry, driven
19 for about an hour and you were beaten during the ride in
20 the lorry. Do you recall testifying to that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And, as I recall, you said that your head and your nose
23 were fractured; is that right?
24 A. No, not nose. My ear was cut by a knife and I was all
25 black and blue, bruised. That's how I said.
1 Q. Okay. Sir, first, while I am looking through my notes,
2 I just want to thank you for being as cooperative and
3 answering these questions as directly as you have
4 been. I am going to jump to again another area.
5 I want to talk to you a little bit about that.
6 You testified on direct examination, according to
7 my notes, that at some point Mr. Landzo beat you with a
8 baseball bat. Do you recall that testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And do you recall the testimony about one of your other
11 prisoners counted the hits and it was 200-250?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And was that -- is that number 200-250 a pretty good
14 guess on numbers, on the number of hits that were --
15 A. Yes, approximately, it is.
16 Q. And he was hitting you real hard, wasn't he?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And it was on your back and your legs?
19 A. The knees up to under my arms.
20 Q. On the back or on the front?
21 A. Not up here (indicating) like this, here and here and up
22 to here (indicating).
23 Q. Okay. So it wasn't on your back; it was on your sides?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you have any broken bones?
1 A. When I was exchanged, I was x-rayed and at that time it
2 was determined that I had had one rib fractured, but it
3 was not determined at that time.
4 Q. So there was -- and there was another occasion where you
5 were hit with a baseball bat a couple of times. Do you
6 recall testifying about that? That was where --
7 A. A couple of times. Well, that was done by somebody
8 else, not by Landzo.
9 Q. I want you to understand I am just talking about being
10 hit by a baseball bat. You were hit -- where were
11 those hits? Where were those blows?
12 A. My behind.
13 Q. On the --
14 A. (Indicating). Down there.
15 Q. On what I will gently call the fleshy part?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Mr. O'Sullivan, could you hand me that object that's next
18 to my chair? Was the object that was used -- did it
19 look like this?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your Honour, I would ask that this be marked and
22 admitted into evidence. For the record --
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: This looks like this.
24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I can promise you that this has
25 never been to Yugoslavia. For the record, it's a
1 Louisville Slugger baseball bat.
2 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object for the relevance,
3 because all of us know what a baseball bat is, but
4 anyway --
5 JUDGE JAN: It was not shown to you under Rule 67C. No
6 objection to that?
7 MR. MORAN: I apologise for not doing that. The thought
8 slipped my mind until this very moment. I apologise
9 for not having delivered a photograph of that or
10 allowing them to inspect it.
11 MR. MORAN: That baseball bat, which is Delic exhibit what?
12 What is the Exhibit Number on that.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It is D6/3.
14 MR. MORAN: That is similar to the baseball bat that was
15 used on you in Celebici?
16 A. You know, I had never seen this type of baseball bat
17 before and people said that this was a baseball bat.
18 Q. Okay. Now when you say you have never seen this type
19 of baseball bat before, you said a couple of minutes ago
20 that that exhibit looked like what you were hit with?
21 A. No. Never before -- never before I had -- I was beaten
22 with it had I seen it before. At that time I did not
23 know what it was. Later we learned. Somebody told me
24 that it was a baseball bat.
25 Q. Well, to be real frank, baseball is not a big sport in
1 Yugoslavia, is it? That's not the national pastime of
3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually can you describe the one used
4 in hitting you? Can you describe that?
5 A. It was something similar to this. The colour was sort
6 of orangey.
7 MR. MORAN: But it looked like that exhibit, same or
9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Counsel is saying it looks like --
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. MORAN: We had a little confusion there. Okay. You
12 testified about another incident. We are getting close
13 to the end, so I'll -- where Mr. Delic came into the
14 hangar and there was an accidental discharge of a
15 firearm. Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. By the way, you will agree with me that that was an
18 accidental discharge?
19 A. I don't know if it was accidental or if it was
21 Q. He shot into the ceiling?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And some people were hit with fragments of that bullet?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And, as I recall, your testimony was that Mr. Delic
1 immediately arranged for them to have medical care; was
2 that right?
3 A. Yes, and I said that the three -- that he personally
4 took those three to the infirmary, where the doctors
6 Q. Yes, sir. A couple of other things that maybe you can
7 help me with and maybe you can't. At some point,
8 probably very early in the time that you were at
9 Celebici, do you recall an incident where there were
10 some blankets and there weren't enough blankets to go
11 around and what there was were divided among the people
12 there; do you recall that incident?
13 A. That was after about a month of our -- after we got to
14 Celebici some people started getting blankets. Some
15 had them and others slept on bare concrete. It turned
16 out that Hazim felt sorry and he split blankets so that
17 everybody would have half a blanket. Those were thin
18 blankets, but it didn't happen until later, and then
19 people got those half blankets.
20 Q. One other quick subject, and I think that I'll be
21 done. You testified that you'd been a cook when you
22 did your national service?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so you were probably around military installations
25 that were designed to have a whole lot of people living
1 there, were you not?
2 A. No. On the contrary. I served on a yacht and only
3 about 20 soldiers were serving it, and so I was in the
5 Q. It sounds like your military service was very similar to
6 my father's, and on that note I will thank you very much
7 and I will pass the witness, your Honour.
8 JUDGE JAN: He had an enjoyable time in the navy?
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, my father was in the army but
10 I think the most strenuous thing he did during World War
11 II was carry a clipboard and cards for poker games.
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
13 Cross-examination by MR. ACKERMAN.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: May I proceed?
15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, you can.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: First I would like to notify the Registrar
17 that I'm going to be needing a couple of exhibits. The
18 first will be the photographs that I mentioned yesterday
19 that were made from the Belgrade TV videotape, and the
20 second will be the first exhibit that the prosecution
21 admitted with this witness, and that's the chart showing
22 where he was sitting in Hangar 6; okay?
23 Good afternoon, Mr. Dordic. How are you?
24 A. Good afternoon. Thank you. Well.
25 Q. I'm John Ackerman. I represent Mr. Landzo in this case
1 and I have probably not very many questions that I want
2 to ask you. I would simply ask, as Mr. Moran did, that
3 you listen very carefully to the question and try to
4 answer the question that I ask you and in that way we
5 can get through this much more quickly; okay?
6 A. Yes. Very well.
7 Q. Prior to coming here to testify today you have had an
8 opportunity to discuss the things that happened to you
9 after 12th May 1992, your experiences in Bradina, your
10 experiences escaping from Bradina, and your experiences
11 at Celebici camp and thereafter, haven't you?
12 A. Very seldom. I don't like to talk about that, because
13 it reminds me of some ugly things. I was requested to
14 do this. In fact, I don't know how I was selected to
15 come here at all.
16 Q. I missed the first half of the translation because
17 somehow my earphones got on the wrong channel. If you
18 could -- could you repeat your answer, please, so that I
19 can hear what you say. Oh, here it is, right here.
20 Well, have you ever -- what I really want to know
21 is: have you ever talked with anyone else about these
22 events prior to sitting in this courtroom and telling
23 the judges about them ever, anywhere?
24 A. Three times.
25 Q. And could you tell me when and where those three times
2 A. In 1995 with somebody from the Committee for War Crimes
3 from Belgrade. This was in Hadici. I don't know how
4 they came for me to testify. They asked me to do this,
5 and indeed when they convinced me that nothing would be
6 divulged and nothing would go to the public then
7 I agreed to do it.
8 The second time I was informed in February of 1996
9 that there was an interest on the part of the
10 investigators of the Hague Tribunal for some statements,
11 and I agreed to that. The third time was in 1996 in
12 November in Belgrade, also with the investigators of the
13 Hague Tribunal.
14 Q. Then I assume, since you have been here, you have
15 discussed your testimony with representatives of the
16 Office of the Prosecutor?
17 A. Yes. That I would consider normal.
18 Q. So would I. The 1995 interview, was that testimony in
19 the sense that you took an oath and the testimony was
20 recorded in some way?
21 A. No. It was just typed up.
22 Q. And was that a statement that you were given an
23 opportunity to read and sign?
24 A. There was no need to re-read it. I heard everything
25 that was being said and that was being typed and I just
1 signed it.
2 Q. Were you being asked questions, or did you just make a
3 statement that was typed?
4 A. I gave a statement. They were not asking questions.
5 Q. Do you have a copy of that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. When was the last time you saw that statement?
8 A. I never did after that.
9 Q. After that day. When in 1995 was that; do you
11 A. The second half. It was September or October. I
12 don't know exactly when.
13 Q. Can you give us a better description of this
14 organisation that took that statement from you? I think
15 you called it a committee for war crimes. Can you give
16 me a better description of who that was? Do you know
17 any names or anything of that nature?
18 A. He introduced himself to me as a representative of the
19 Committee for War Crimes, something like that, nothing
21 Q. Do you remember a name?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask the usher to show you some
24 photographs that are in evidence in this case. There
25 are, I think, four of them or three. That's all.
1 Please put them on the overhead ELMO.
2 I want you to look at each one of these
3 photographs and simply tell us if you have ever met with
4 or seen the person depicted in the photograph. You'll
5 see that they are on the monitor as soon as we get
6 things working.
7 A. I don't know. Maybe on television.
8 Q. But you don't --
9 A. Personally no. Maybe by accident on television or
11 Q. Okay. The second one please ?
12 A. Yes. I know Dusica Bojic. She's the secretary of the
13 Association of Detainees of 1991.
14 Q. How many times have you met with her?
15 A. Two or three times.
16 Q. Have you ever told her about your experiences in
17 Celebici and before and after?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Are you a member of the Association of Detainees?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is it true that to become a member of that association
22 you must give them a statement about your experiences?
23 A. I don't know about that. I gave no statement and I am
24 a member. I have the membership of that organisation.
25 Q. Do you know whether or not the statement you made in
1 1995 in Belgrade was for this group?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know. I doubt it.
3 Q. Where was it in Belgrade that that statement was made to
4 this Committee for War Crimes, or whatever it was
5 called? Where was that?
6 A. Not in Belgrade. I said in Hadici, not in Belgrade.
7 Q. Oh, Hadici?
8 A. I don't know if I was clear. Yes.
9 Q. I probably misunderstood you. That's probably my
10 fault. Where was that in Hadici? What kind of a
12 A. That's a small town. Hadici is a small town. That is
13 in the municipality of what is today called Serbian
14 Sarajevo. I gave the statement in the police station.
15 Q. Okay. How did you happen to go there? Who asked you
16 to go there?
17 A. A policeman came to get me, a member of the MUP. I
18 didn't know him.
19 Q. You have -- I think you have already told us that you
20 have no idea how they knew even that you might be able
21 to give such a statement; is that a fair statement by
23 A. I never approached anybody with respect to that, so
24 I had no idea.
25 Q. Okay. The photograph that you were just looking at,
1 this woman that you say you have met on three occasions,
2 when was the last time you talked to her?
3 A. Maybe about ten days ago. I asked for some assistance
4 concerning clothing.
5 Q. Okay. I want to show you now the third photograph and
6 see if you recognise that person.
7 A. Yes. I know him.
8 Q. Just for the record, who is that?
9 A. Dr. Mirodrag Berliza. He is a compatriot from Konjic.
10 Q. When is the last time you talked with him?
11 A. Never.
12 Q. You have never talked with him?
13 A. No, never, never.
14 Q. You just recognise him. You know who he is; right?
15 A. I know him personally from -- as a compatriot.
16 Q. I'm confused. You know him personally as a compatriot,
17 but you have never talked to him?
18 A. No, I haven't.
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you were meaning talking to
20 him about these matters.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: About anything.
22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Merely meeting him and talking to
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Have you ever talked to him about anything?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Pjetar Fiodorov?
2 A. I think he's the President of the Association of
4 Q. Do you know him?
5 A. I only saw him once.
6 Q. Have you ever talked with him?
7 A. Just something personal.
8 Q. When was the last time you remember talking to him?
9 A. I asked for some money; right.
10 Q. How long ago?
11 A. In February or March of this year.
12 Q. All right. How many times have you been to the offices
13 of the Association of Detainees?
14 A. As I said, two or three times, when I went to see
15 Dusitsa Bojic.
16 Q. All right. I want to change direction now. I want to
17 talk about the battle of Bradina. I want to go back to
18 late 1991, early 1992. In your direct examination you
19 talked about that things started happening in 1991 and
20 then on into 1992. Among other things, in late 1991
21 and early 1992 you started hearing about military
22 conflicts that were going on across Bosnia-Herzegovina,
23 did you not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There were conflicts going on in other villages outside
1 of the Konjic opstina?
2 A. The closest was Mostar already in 1991.
3 Q. You got that from conversation with other people, from
4 watching television, from newspapers; it was widely
5 known what was going on around --
6 A. On television. On television.
7 Q. Of course, you discussed these events with your friends
8 and neighbours?
9 A. That's only normal, isn't it?
10 Q. Please understand I'm not accusing you of anything.
11 I'm just trying to find out what you knew at that point
12 in time. Do you understand that?
13 A. I was a waiter. That's what I was doing.
14 Q. Right. You knew at that time in early 1992 that there
15 were various Muslim villages across Bosnia-Herzegovina
16 that were being attacked by JNA and Serbian forces, and
17 perhaps maybe some Serbian villages that were being
18 attacked by Croat and Muslim forces. You knew it was
19 happening both ways during that period of time, didn't
21 A. I doubt that the Yugoslav Army was attacking. It was
22 like a shield. It was guaranteeing peace to both sides
23 until it withdrew, until the Yugoslav Army withdrew,
24 because Bosnia was then part of Yugoslavia.
25 Q. When, to your knowledge, did the Yugoslav Army leave the
1 area and withdraw from Bosnia?
2 A. I learned of that when I got to the camp, that they had
3 withdrawn, because ever since April there was no
4 electricity. We were cut off in Bradina. We were cut
5 off from the rest of the world. So we didn't know what
6 was happening.
7 Q. So by the time you got to the camp, around the end of
8 May, May 30th, of 1992, you learned that the JNA had
9 already withdrawn from Bosnia?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now when you started hearing about these things on
12 television and becoming aware of what was happening in
13 Mostar and so forth, that was when everyone started
14 dragging out their hunting rifles and trying to buy
15 automatic weapons on the black market; correct?
16 A. Yes. It was normal. The Muslims were getting arms
17 through the reserve force of MUP and so the rest of us
18 had to get arms too.
19 Q. Because you expected either that you would be attacked
20 or that you would be asked to conduct an attack, one or
21 the other?
22 A. We just wanted to defend ourselves, to defend our homes.
23 Q. It was well-known, was it not -- and, as you told me a
24 moment ago it is normal for everybody to talk about what
25 is happening -- it was well-known in Bradina and the
1 Bradina area that things were happening outside that
2 area, and people in the Bradina area were acquiring
3 weapons and getting out their old hunting rifles and
4 things of that nature. That wasn't any kind of a
5 secret, was it?
6 A. We knew.
7 Q. "We" meaning the residents of Bradina?
8 A. Yes, the residents of Bradina.
9 Q. Right. I think you've told us that on -- down towards
10 the end of May, 26th, 27th, when forces started
11 attacking the village of Bradina there came a time, did
12 there not, when it became clear to you that you were not
13 strong enough -- you and the other people in Bradina --
14 not strong enough to repel the forces invading, and so
15 you decided to leave the area; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I take it -- you've already told us that you left
18 your weapons behind. Was that true of everyone who
19 left that area with you, the -- I think it was 12 people
20 that you went with -- did everyone leave their weapons
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. I take it that the weapons were left behind because of
24 your fear that it would be much more dangerous to your
25 lives if you were caught trying to escape with weapons
1 rather than without them?
2 A. Yes. That's what the majority of us thought.
3 Q. Right. What your goal was, what you really wanted to
4 do, was get out of that area and get to what you knew to
5 be Serb-held territory?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where you knew there would be Serb armed forces and some
8 protection for you?
9 A. We assumed that it would be Kalinovik or Hadici.
10 Q. You knew that those areas were Serb-controlled areas?
11 A. We didn't really know whether they were in control of
12 the whole area, for we were under blockade for almost a
13 month. We were cut off. Since we knew that Kalinovik
14 is almost 100 per cent inhabited by Serbs, we expected
15 that the Serbs controlled Kalinovik or one of these
16 other small places.
17 Q. So at least it was a safe bet in your mind that that is
18 what you would encounter, if you could make it that far?
19 A. Yes, of course. That's what we counted on. We
20 counted on it being okay there.
21 Q. One of the persons that was part of your group was a
22 person named Dragan Kuljanin; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Dragan Kuljanin was with you at least from the time that
25 you have talked about that you spent a night next to a
1 creek near Bradina until the time that you arrived at
2 Celebici; correct?
3 A. He joined us during the day, when we set off. He
4 didn't spend the night with us, but he joined us in the
6 Q. Did you see him hide his weapon or not?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I saw -- no, I didn't see him, but he came
8 without any weapon.
9 Q. Okay. Did he tell you that he'd hidden his weapon
11 A. He didn't, but the very fact that he didn't have any
12 weapon meant that he must have left it, if he had any.
13 Q. You went to -- from there you went, among other places,
14 to a place that I think is called Prehulja. Does that
15 ring any bells with you?
16 A. I beg your pardon? Prehulja? I don't know.
17 Q. Do you recall a place where there was an anti-aircraft
18 machine gun during your trip that day?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I want to go now to the time you were in the valley
21 where you were arrested. After you were taken into
22 custody, you were forced to walk for some distance
23 before there was transportation made available; correct?
24 A. I don't quite understand your question. I don't quite
25 understand. It isn't clear to me.
1 Q. I probably didn't give you have enough background. You
2 told us yesterday that during your attempt to escape you
3 found yourselves in a valley and you were fired on and
4 asked to surrender and you, in fact, surrendered and you
5 were taken into custody by some soldiers, and that they
6 forced you to walk some distance; correct?
7 A. Yes. Yes. That's what I said. First, they beat us
8 and then we went for about 1 km, until they had us climb
9 some vehicles.
10 Q. Okay. Now you were beaten at that point for how long a
11 period of time before you began walking?
12 A. It seemed to me like an eternity. Half an hour,
13 something like that, maybe longer, and along the way as
14 we walked.
15 Q. I think you told us you were beaten with rifle butts and
16 things of that nature during that period?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then there came a time after you had walked 1 km or so
19 that some vehicles appeared; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And one of those vehicles was a van, a Golf van?
22 A. There were some passenger cars but there was a small Tam
23 -- a small lorry, Tam.
24 Q. Oh, a Tam.
25 A. A small lorry, a small Tam. There are various sizes.
1 Q. Was there a Mercedes?
2 A. I didn't pay any attention. I don't know.
3 Q. You don't recall seeing a Mercedes there?
4 A. No.
5 Q. After you got into this Tam, you were driven from there
6 to Mount Igman?
7 A. First Mount Bjelasnica in front of the Famos Hotel for a
8 brief stop and then from there to Mr.aziste.
9 Q. Let us talk about the Famos Hotel. When you stopped at
10 the Famos Hotel -- well, prior to getting there in the
11 truck, you were all forced to look back and there were
12 soldiers behind you beating you; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That's when you got hit quite hard on the head, and
15 that's when your ear got cut?
16 A. No. My ear was cut with a knife.
17 Q. Was that during that ride?
18 A. With a bayonet, only luckily it wasn't very sharp.
19 Q. Was that during that ride in the truck?
20 A. No. When we got to Mr.aziste.
21 Q. During the ride in the truck, was your nose broken at
22 that point?
23 A. I was all swollen and my nose wasn't broken. I was
24 just all black and blue, beaten up all over the body and
25 on my face.
1 Q. That's while you were riding in the truck?
2 A. On the truck they were hitting us with butts from
3 behind. I was lucky. I was in front, so the others
4 got more than I did.
5 Q. All right. When you got to Hotel Famos, you were taken
6 out of the truck and put onto a concrete ramp in front
7 of the Hotel Famos and beaten for an extended period of
8 time, were you not?
9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. They made us lie down on the
10 concrete. We had to spread out our arms. They didn't
11 beat me very much. They trod on my fingers but it
12 wasn't so terrible. Some got really beaten up, and
13 that's where they took down our personal data. We had
14 to tell them our names.
15 Q. Then it was after that that you were loaded back in the
16 truck and taken to Mount Igman?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At Mount Igman you were put into a room in a hotel or
19 motel there and mistreated by someone you have described
20 as a fat man, who jumped around on your feet and your
21 fingers, and things of that nature; correct?
22 A. I didn't say that. He beat us on our heads when we
23 were doing Muslim prayers. We had to repeat the Muslim
24 prayers after him.
25 Q. What was it he was beating you with on your heads?
1 A. With his legs. He was kicking us mostly. Kicking us.
2 Q. Do you know who that was? Do you know his name?
3 A. No.
4 Q. It was the next day, was it not, that you then were
6 A. We were interrogated that same evening.
7 Q. Were you also interrogated the next day or just that
9 A. I wasn't at least. Most of us had to work the next
10 day. We had to unload and load some grain.
11 Q. Did you see a person during the interrogations that was
12 conducting some of the interrogations by the name of
13 Mensur Kovac?
14 A. I do not recall. Maybe I did but I didn't know who he
15 was. I just saw Miroslav Bozic and another one, at
16 least someone who introduced himself as Miroslav Bozic
17 and another man, who was there taking notes. I don't
18 know who he was.
19 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Mensur Kovac?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now from the time that you were taken into custody in
22 the valley until the time you got to the hotel in Mount
23 Igman and in the hotel in Mount Igman, you were beaten a
24 number of times, several times. I think that's a fair
25 statement; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Yes. It is. They beat us all the time: upon
2 being arrested, as we walked, on the vehicle, and when
3 we entered this area, which I assume was some kind of a
5 Q. The question I have is: how after the series of such
6 severe beatings you were able then the next day to do a
7 full day's work, loading grain into sacks and loading it
8 up on to trucks? How could you do that after being
9 beaten so severely over and over and over on your way
11 A. I wondered too. I wondered, but who asked? We just
12 had to do what we were told. I couldn't see. I had
13 to keep my eyes open with my fingers in order to be able
14 to see anything.
15 Q. So even though you were able to do it, it was extremely
16 difficult, considering the nature of your injuries at
17 that point?
18 A. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. The cut on your ear that you received, did you ever get
20 any treatment for that cut, the bayonet cut of your ear?
21 A. Yes. The next day I put a Band-Aid -- the doctor came
22 and put a Band-Aid on it at the intervention of Miroslav
23 Bozic, who intervened on my behalf.
24 Q. Any medication of any kind?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I want to now go to Celebici and ask you some questions
2 about Celebici. You've talked with both the Prosecutor
3 and Mr. Moran about the time that Jasmin Guska came and
4 talked to you and told you that he was going to send you
5 with some police to recover your weapon. That's the
6 part I want to talk about; okay?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now I take it that you knew at the time that you
9 acquired that weapon and the time you had that weapon
10 that being in possession of such a weapon was a
11 violation of the laws of Yugoslavia?
12 A. At the time everybody was violating the law, not just
14 Q. I understand. Everybody you knew in Bradina was doing
15 the same thing you were doing; correct?
16 A. Not just in Bradina. In the neighbouring villages the
17 Muslims were doing the same thing, only they had more
18 legal way to do it, because in Bradina a reserve police
19 station was formed, because Bradina is a purely Serb
20 village -- 99 per cent of the inhabitants are Serb --
21 and in the Elementary School in 1991 the station of the
22 reserve police was situated, which was composed 90 per
23 cent of Muslims. There weren't 5 or 6 per cent Serbs,
24 but Muslims who kept changing. Every ten days new ones
25 would come, so that they could arm as many as possible.
1 Q. Yes. The answer to my question, I guess, is: "Yes,
2 I knew it was against the law but everyone else was
3 doing it too." Is that a fair statement?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You described during your direct examination an incident
6 involving a couple of brothers by the name of Dordic
7 that were sitting near the front door of Hangar
8 Number 6. Do you know who I'm talking about and the
9 incident I'm talking about? The incident I'm talking
10 about has to do with a sexual matter.
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know what I'm talking about?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Have you have ever -- had you ever known these two
15 brothers Dordic before Celebici?
16 A. Yes, of course, because we come from the same village.
17 Q. Have you ever told anyone at any time that these two
18 brothers were mentally retarded?
19 A. Yes, one of them, but I don't know how the other
20 finished school either. Veso, the younger one, in my
21 judgement, is the younger brother.
22 Q. This incident you described for the court, it's true,
23 isn't it, that although Mr. Landzo was present, it was a
24 guard by the name of Osman Dedic that was basically
25 making them perform those acts?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Was Osman Dedic there at the time?
3 A. Yes. He was in Celebici. He was also a guard.
4 Q. But was he in the hangar standing in front of the Dordic
5 brothers when you say that Mr. Landzo --
6 A. He may have been outside the door. He may have been
7 outside the door, but I didn't see him from where I was
9 Q. You were sitting quite some distance away from where
10 this happened, were you not?
11 A. Yes, about 25 metres.
12 Q. Could I ask the usher to show you the diagram upon which
13 you made your mark yesterday of your location there?
14 (Handed). Could we put that on the overhead, please,
15 the ELMO? Okay. Do you see the diagram?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You see the "X" where you told us yesterday that you
18 were sitting; correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your Honours, I would like to have him make some more
21 marks on this but I don't want to desecrate the
22 prosecution's exhibit by doing that without their
23 permission. I think they have multiple copies of this
24 same thing, so if they would rather substitute one that
25 I can use as a Defence Exhibit, that would be fine with
2 MR. TURONE: We can provide Mr. Ackerman with another copy of
3 this map.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.
5 Now you will see, Mr. Dordic, that we've put what
6 is really an exact duplicate of that other diagram on
7 the ELMO there and what's missing from it is the "X"
8 that would mark where your spot was, so could you please
9 put that on that particular diagram for us?
10 A. (Indicating).
11 Q. Now what I would like you to do in addition is put two
12 "X"s at the spot where the Dordic brothers were
14 A. (Indicating).
15 Q. You have done that. Could you next to that put a "D"
16 just so we will know that that's the spot you made for
17 the Dordic brothers, just the letter "D"? Put that next
18 to it, please?
19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Instead of "X"?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, because he already has an "X" for
22 A. I put the letter in front.
23 Q. Thank you very much. I can't remember if you told us
24 this yesterday or not. I believe you said that there
25 came a time when you measured that building, that space
1 in there, and that's how you knew what size it was.
2 Did you actually measure it?
3 A. It was roughly. There was nothing I could measure it
5 Q. So you never actually conducted a precise measurement of
6 the size of that -- of the inside of that building, did
8 A. With what? With my feet perhaps or steps.
9 Q. Well, did you step it off to see what size it was?
10 A. We weren't allowed to move around.
11 Q. So the answer to my question is: no, you never measured
12 is; right?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. Could you show the judges, please, by putting a
15 "DB" on the chart where Dusko Bendjo was sitting? Just
16 put the letters "DB" where Dusko Bendjo was located at
17 the time.
18 A. Dusko Bendjo?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. (Indicating).
21 Q. Did you put a "DB" there?
22 A. (No translation).
23 MR. ACKERMAN: No translation.
24 A. He changed places. First he was here and then he was
25 moved to the other side. He was moved by Mr. Delic.
1 Q. Okay. The place I am interested in having you identify
2 for us is the place that you described him sitting this
3 morning after his legs had been burned. Where was
5 A. "DB" is that what I should put?
6 Q. Yes, "DB".
7 A. (Indicated).
8 Q. Have you done that?
9 A. I have.
10 Q. He wouldn't have been sitting along that wall alone.
11 There would have been a line of other prisoners on both
12 sides of him; correct?
13 A. Of course he wasn't alone.
14 Q. There would have been somebody sitting right to his
15 immediate right?
16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have a break and come back in
17 30 minutes' time?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
19 (4.00 pm)
20 (Short break)
21 (4.30 pm)
22 (Witness re-enters court)
23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is still on his
25 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you that you are still under
2 A. I realise that.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honours.
4 Welcome back, Mr. Dordic. We were in the process
5 of making a map and it's still sitting next to you.
6 I think where we had got to, if I can get the map up
7 on the screen here, is you had put a "DB" where Dusko
8 Bendjo was sitting at the time we were talking about;
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You described for us this morning an incident involving
12 another burning, and that person's name is Nedjelko
13 Draganic. Can you show us where he was sitting by
14 marking it with an "ND", please?
15 A. (Indicating).
16 Q. For the record, you have done that. You have placed an
17 "ND" on what the Registrar has identified as exhibit
18 11-4, have you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. The next person who I'd like -- whose location
21 I would like you to identify for me is named Momir
22 Kuljanin. Put an "MK".
23 A. (Indicating).
24 Q. For the record, you have put an "MK" where Momir
25 Kuljanin was seated; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The last one whom I would like you to identify the
3 location of is Milivoj Gligorevic?
4 A. (Indicating).
5 Q. For the record, you have done that; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now you told us during your direct examination that
8 there was a time when another person was asked to hit
9 Milivoj Gligorevic with a shoe?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you tell us again the name of the person -- who it
12 was that was asked to hit him with the shoe?
13 A. Boro Koprivica.
14 Q. Could you show us then on the diagram, by using "BK",
15 where he sat?
16 A. (Indicating).
17 Q. You have done that; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Using the initials "BK"?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. I'll now ask the usher to show you what turns
22 out to be an awfully poor photograph, but I think you
23 may be able to identify it, and I want you to tell me if
24 you can. Please put it on the ...
25 MR. TURONE: Have we seen this photograph?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Numerous times it has been shown before in
2 the court. Show it to Mr. Turone, just so he knows he
3 has seen it.
4 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much.
5 THE USHER: This one?
6 MR. ACKERMAN: The one that I'm looking at right now. My
7 only question is: do you recognise that scene?
8 Do you know where that is?
9 A. It reminds me of Hangar Number 6.
10 Q. And does it show the way that the prisoners were seated
11 in Hangar Number 6?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What that shows is that there were in addition to a row
14 of prisoners against the long walls, there was another
15 row sitting directly in front of that row, so that there
16 would have been four rows lengthwise in that building;
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you will now pick that exhibit up off the ELMO, so
20 you can see the diagram you drew, then I'll ask you an
21 additional question. You've got a mark on that diagram
22 that appears to be sitting out in the middle of the
23 floor. I think that's Momir Kuljanin or Nedjelko
24 Draganic. It's Nedjelko Draganic. That mark sitting
25 out in the middle of the floor away from the wall would
1 show that he was really sitting in one of those long
2 rows of people; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. People in those rows along the wall and in front of them
5 were sitting quite close together, were they not?
6 A. Yes. The row that can be seen here, against this wall,
7 and these were -- they were a bit further back. This
8 side here was a bit further back.
9 Q. Okay. At this point I will move to introduce the
10 diagram that the witness made that was furnished by the
11 prosecution to us as exhibit 11/4. Then I would also
12 ask that the photograph that I just showed him be marked
13 as an exhibit and I'll move to introduce that when we
14 have a designation for it. Then I also want to move
15 the introduction of the two colour photographs that he
16 identified, which have been marked as Exhibit 5/2 and
18 MR. TURONE: We have in objection, your Honours.
19 JUDGE JAN: Can I have a look at the photograph of Hangar
20 Number 6?
21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The black and white one.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Do we have a number assigned now to the
23 photograph that was just handed to Judge Jan?
24 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Hocking, take this.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It's number D12/4.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Then my offer would include D12/4 and the
2 Office of the Prosecutor has already said they have no
3 objection, so I assume that those four that I have
4 offered are now admitted; is that correct?
5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Since it's not been objected to, they
6 are admitted.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. I think I have one
8 more area, Mr. Dordic, that I want to discuss with you.
9 I want to remind you of your testimony regarding an
10 incident where Mr. Delic came to Hangar Number 6 and a
11 weapon was fired into the ceiling, and three or four
12 people were injured as a result of the bullet
13 fragmenting and flying around. You remember what I'm
14 talking about; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And my recollection of your testimony, although I'm not
17 certain, and that's why I want to ask you about it, is
18 that that happened some time during the month of August
19 1992; is that correct?
20 A. No, not in August. Some time in July, early July,
21 I believe, somewhere around there.
22 Q. And after that happened and it became apparent that
23 people were injured, you've told us that Mr. Delic
24 immediately put them in his car and drove them off to
25 Building 22 for treatment?
1 A. I don't know if it was a car, because I was not outside.
2 Q. But you know that he did take them there?
3 A. He took them somewhere and when they came back, they
4 said that these fragments of the bullets were taken out.
5 Q. Okay. At the time this happened the persons with
6 Mr. Delic were maybe some other guards from Celebici, but
7 no-one else; correct?
8 A. No, he was alone.
9 Q. All right. That concludes my cross-examination, your
10 Honours. Thank you.
11 Cross-examination by MR. GREAVES
12 MR. GREAVES: Good afternoon, Mr. Dordic.
13 May it please your Honours? I would like to ask
14 you, Mr. Dordic, please --
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. Thank you. I would like to ask you just a little bit
17 more about the incident when you were taken by the
18 police to go and recover your weapon that you had
19 hidden. Essentially that was an operation organised by
20 MUP, Jasmin Guska and Sevko Niksic; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did those two that I've named to you, did they go with
23 you to where the weapon was hidden, or did they send
24 someone to do it for you?
25 A. No. They sent someone else, yes.
1 Q. Were you taken there in a vehicle?
2 A. In a Golf vehicle. It was white and blue.
3 Q. A Volkswagen Golf?
4 A. Yes, Volkswagen.
5 Q. Was one of the people that took you to that place -- I
6 think name was Sljivo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is Sljivo a first or a second name?
9 A. It's a last name. I don't recall the first name.
10 I only know that he was a goalkeeper of the soccer club
11 Igman from Konjic and just before the war he was the
12 trainer for the goalkeepers. He was one of the reserve
13 policemen. I don't know if he was a commander there or
14 not but he was in the reserve police.
15 Q. I'm not going to ask about his function in the police
16 but would the name Dzevad Sljivo, would that sound
18 A. That's exactly the name maybe. I only know him as
20 Q. Certainly we may well hear in due course about a reserve
21 police officer by that very name. He was the one who
22 drove the vehicle, was he?
23 A. No. I think it was Vahid Macic who drove -- no, Alagic.
24 Q. I think when you got to the place where the weapon was
25 concealed, I think you were beaten up by this man
1 Sljivo; is that right?
2 A. He started beating me, but he was warned by this Vahid
3 Alagic and then he stopped.
4 Q. Not to do it in front of your mother; I think was what
5 happened; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I just want briefly to ask you about
8 another man, please, Mr. Dordic, if I may: Jovan
9 Divijak. I am sorry if I mispronounced the name, but
10 does that name ring a bell to you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that someone who came at least once to the camp at
14 A. I did not see him, but he was seen by a prisoner Radovan
15 Mrsic, who knew him personally, like I did, because for
16 a while he was a commander. Jovan Divijak was
17 Commander for the Territorial Defence for Mostar, for
18 the Mostar region, and he spent a lot of time in the
19 training centre in Borci conducting some courses, and if
20 there were these courses going on, I would be there as a
21 cook. So I knew him well. We spent at least one year
22 conducting these courses and these trainings.
23 Q. Is he a Serb or a Muslim or what?
24 A. Serb. He is a Muslim general.
25 Q. Do you know what the visit to the camp was about? Were
1 you told that?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. What were you told about his visit?
4 A. Radovan Mrsic told me -- he said -- I was called
5 "Mrkela". He said: "Mrkela, your friend is coming.
6 He told you -- he told me when he saw me -- he said:
7 'That's what you deserved'". That's what he said when
8 he saw Radovan Mrsic, because Radovan Mrsic was cleaning
9 something outside at that time.
10 Q. All right. Would your Honour just give me a moment,
11 please? I just want to ask you one question, please,
12 about your interrogation before you actually arrived at
13 the camp. Was one of the people engaged in that
14 process a man called Mensur Kovac? Does that ring a
15 bell, Mr. Dordic?
16 A. Mensur Kovac, no, not me.
17 Q. So you didn't see that person at all at the time before
18 the camp?
19 A. No, I didn't even know him. I don't even know who he
21 Q. All right.
22 A. I never mentioned him anywhere.
23 Q. I would like now just to turn, please, to Mr. Mucic and
24 some details concerning him, please, if we may. You've
25 told their Honours about the first time that you saw
1 him. Would you accept this, please, Mr. Dordic, that,
2 as far as the time when you first saw him, you are not
3 sure in which month it was that you first saw Mr. Mucic
4 in the camp?
5 A. Most probably it was June, the first time I saw him.
6 Q. But you're not sure which month it was, Mr. Dordic; is
7 that right?
8 A. I think it's correct that I said.
9 Q. As far as his uniform was concerned, it's right, isn't
10 it, that there was no insignia on that uniform?
11 A. I think he did not have insignia. I'm not sure but
12 I think he did not have them.
13 Q. I want now to explore something that you told the court
14 earlier on today and the phrase that you used in
15 evidence about Mr. Mucic was that everybody respected
16 him. So I'm just going to ask you a series of
17 questions about that, Mr. Dordic, if I may, please. You
18 obviously knew him before the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you meet him?
21 A. Without moustache. I'm a waiter and he used to -- he
22 liked to frequent cafes.
23 Q. Well, nothing wrong with that, is there, if you are a
25 A. Of course not.
1 Q. Would he -- whereabouts were you employed at that
2 stage? What was the name of the cafe that you worked
4 A. You mean before the war?
5 Q. Before the war?
6 A. There were many different cafes. I don't want to list
7 them. At least ten that I worked in.
8 Q. Which was the one that he used to come to and drink at?
9 A. Well, he would come to all of them.
10 Q. All of them; right. So he was well-known in the cafes
11 of the area then?
12 A. Yes, all the way up until the time -- I don't know
13 exactly when he went to Austria before the war or when
14 he would not be in jail.
15 Q. So you knew him. Did you like him before the war, when
16 he came to your cafes?
17 A. We had some mutual friends. There was Miroslav and
18 some others.
19 Q. Would this be right, that he was someone who mixed
20 across the ethnic boundaries quite a lot, mixed with
21 Serbs, mixed with Croats, mixed with Muslims quite
22 happily and freely; is that right?
23 A. Yes. He mixed with everyone.
24 Q. Some of the people who were in the camp with you, no
25 doubt they also knew him from before the war; would that
1 be right? Would that be something you knew about?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now you've told the court that he had, as you have
4 described it -- everybody respected him. Would this be
5 right, Mr. Dordic, that in the context of what was
6 happening at the camp, that was a respect that he had to
7 earn from the people in the camp?
8 A. It's not so much respecting him as that they feared him,
9 because he was their superior. They all looked at him
10 as commander.
11 Q. Yes, but the word that you used was "respect"?
12 A. That's what appeared to us.
13 Q. There were --
14 A. But I didn't say that there was respect.
15 Q. Well --
16 A. Maybe it was wrong interpretation there.
17 Q. That was the word that was translated to us,
18 Mr. Dordic. May I suggest some reasons why that would
19 be so --
20 A. That's possible.
21 Q. When you were being mistreated by a man called Salko --
22 do you remember telling us about that incident?
23 A. Salko. Salko did not mistreat me ever, but when Zenga
24 burnt my tongue, Salko stood at the door and at one
25 point he said: "Here's Pavo", and then he ran out and
1 told me to get back to my place.
2 Q. And they got you quickly back to your place, did they?
3 A. Yes. I went back by myself, on my own.
4 Q. Before Pavo came?
5 A. He never came. I don't know if that was Salko's trick
6 so that Zenga would leave me alone or something. I
7 don't know. I'm not clear about that.
8 Q. There was, I think, another occasion when your brother
9 was being assaulted, but you weren't present, I think,
10 at that; is that right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But you remember hearing from your brother about him
13 being assaulted?
14 A. Yes. He was brought out by Kemal Mr.dzic and by -- we
15 called him Crni. He said he was from the Doboj area.
16 We heard they started beating him. We heard the noise
17 of a vehicle and a door opened all of a sudden and he
18 ran inside. After a while they asked Zaro to come out,
19 because Zaro at that time was some kind of a leader.
20 He was sort of superior of us. He was a prisoner but
21 he was appointed our superior. Then when he came out,
22 he said that: "Pavo was asking whether you had been
23 beaten", and Rajko said that he was not, because he
24 didn't dare say "Yes", because again they heard
25 something, and then Zaro apparently went out and told
1 Pavo that he had not been beaten.
2 Q. But isn't this right, that during the course of your
3 brother being beaten up someone said that Pavo's car was
4 coming; do you remember that?
5 A. We could even hear the sound of the vehicle. I don't
6 know if that was Pavo's car. That I don't know. We
7 inside heard a car approaching.
8 Q. But nevertheless, when the car started to approach, the
9 guards took instant steps to conceal both themselves and
10 your brother, so that if it was Pavo, he wouldn't see
11 what was going on; do you remember that?
12 A. Me? My brother?
13 Q. Your brother.
14 A. I don't know if they hid. I know that my brother came
16 Q. Wasn't this the case, that that was frequently how
17 matters would happen? If Pavo appeared on the scene,
18 things that were being done wrong would stop, wouldn't
20 A. Well, if something was going on at the time yes, of
21 course it would stop, at least what I know about.
22 Q. I would like now to ask about your transfer to the
23 Musala camp on 21st August. Do you remember that taking
25 A. Yes, I remember very well.
1 Q. One of the reasons for that was that you were at that
2 time suffering from a skin disease known as psoriasis?
3 A. Yes, because of psoriasis and I was very thin. I was
4 like a skeleton, a walking skeleton.
5 Q. Well, you will see that I can't share with you the
6 condition of being thin, Mr. Dordic?
7 A. I think that was the reason.
8 Q. I can share with you the experience of having
9 psoriasis. I know a little bit about that. Was your
10 psoriasis very bad at that time? I think you described
11 it as being on your face?
12 A. Yes, on my face, my hands, my body, all over my body,
13 wherever the bones are, all over. I was all covered.
14 Q. Did -- there are a number of ways in which it can
15 manifest itself. Was it just scaling of the skin, dead
16 skin coming off, or was it worse than that? Was there
17 any bleeding from the psoriasis?
18 A. No. As we were perspiring a lot it was very hot, it
19 would scale and then the skin would be very red
20 underneath. The white skin would come off and beneath
21 the skin would be raw red.
22 Q. When Pavo came to see you, it would obviously have been
23 quite obvious to you that you were suffering from that,
24 because your face would show it?
25 A. He asked me what it was. He didn't know what it was,
1 so I explained it to him. I told him it was psoriasis.
2 Q. Just help me about this. Have you always suffered from
3 psoriasis? Have you had it before the war at all?
4 A. Since 1975. It would appear occasionally, but I always
5 have it here on my elbows.
6 Q. I think it tends to disappear when you're in the sun and
7 you look as though you've been in the sun a fair bit,
8 Mr. Dordic, recently?
9 A. Sometimes it disappears; sometimes not.
10 Q. When he saw you in that condition, he took steps to have
11 you removed to Musala for albeit a short period?
12 A. Probably, since I was moved, that was probably the
13 reason, and he had the power to do it.
14 Q. Finally this, Mr. Dordic, if I may, please: he was
15 responsible for transferring out of the camp Esad
16 Landzo; is that right?
17 A. I think it was him. I think -- the guards told us that
18 it was Pavo who chased him away. I'm not sure, but
19 that was what we heard from the guards. Whether they
20 were lying or not I can't tell.
21 Q. Whenever it may have happened, the immediate reason for
22 it was that he'd fired a weapon near to some people; is
23 that right?
24 A. He would fire at us. We would hear the firing when we
25 had visits along the wire fence. Whether that was the
1 main reason I don't know.
2 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dordic. I have no further
3 questions for you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.
5 Cross-examination by MS. RESIDOVIC
6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, if I can
7 have a minute to set myself up, because it's a bit more
8 complicated for us, as we have to find our
9 interpretation booth for Serbo-Croatian or rather the
10 three languages that we now speak.
11 May I start, your Honours?
12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you have the witness.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good afternoon,
14 Mr. Dordic.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. My name is Edina Residovic. I am defence counsel for
17 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
18 A. I'm glad to meet you.
19 Q. You have been answering for some time questions put to
20 you by my learned colleagues, both the prosecution and
21 the defence, and I have now been asked by the Registry,
22 though I wanted to do that for our own benefit anyway,
23 that we come to an agreement, namely when somebody is
24 putting questions to you in English, then it is normal
25 for you to wait for the interpretation and then to
1 answer the question. However, as both of us speak a
2 language that we understand very well, we get carried
3 away and we enter into a dialogue. So I would like to
4 ask you when you hear my question to wait a bit for the
5 answer until you have heard the question having been
6 interpreted into English and French, and I will do the
7 same, so that everyone is the courtroom will be able to
8 understand what we are talking about. Have I made
9 myself clear?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dordic, you stated in the Tribunal that
12 around 19th April you left Konjic and went to Bradina;
13 is that correct?
14 A. No, I was in Bradina all the time, only I was living in
15 Konjic -- I was working in Konjic until the 19th.
16 Q. And you were working at the Konjic motel; is that so?
17 A. Until the 19th.
18 Q. Until the 19th. At that time very major disturbances
19 had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that so?
20 A. Yes. The situation was very tense between Serbs,
21 Muslims and Croats.
22 Q. In Mostar the combat operations had already started?
23 A. As far as we were informed by the media.
24 Q. In Sarajevo the conflict started on April 6th; isn't
25 that so?
1 A. Yes, as far as we learned by the mass media, because I
2 didn't travel there.
3 Q. And also you were informed by the media that on this day
4 a state of -- immediate state of war had been proclaimed
5 in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
6 A. I was not aware of that.
7 Q. You have already stated in your testimony so far that in
8 Bradina, like the rest of the population, because of the
9 fear that was mounting among the people, you yourself
10 tried to organise yourself in the event that you had to
11 defend yourself; isn't that so?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. And you said that this was done by other inhabitants of
14 Bradina as well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Let me go back to your occupation. You said that you
17 were a waiter and you completed the appropriate training
18 in Mostar?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. A moment ago you told my colleague that acting as a
21 waiter in many places in Konjic you met many people in
22 Konjic. Some of them you knew by sight and others
23 became acquaintances; is that so?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Dordic, you were known as "Mrkela"; isn't that so?
1 A. Just before the war, yes, because of Mrkela, the
2 football player, and I was a Red Star supporter, a
3 supporter of the Red Star team.
4 Q. So some people who were talking about Mrkela the waiter
5 meant you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Dordic, I am sure you can confirm in the area of
8 Konjic and especially Bradina the Dordic family is a
9 very large one; isn't that so?
10 A. It's not very large, but among the larger ones in
11 Bradina, yes.
12 Q. Your father's name is Nedeljko, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And your mother's name, Todora?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And her maiden name was Mrkajic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the Mrkajic family is numerous in Bradina too, isn't
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Your wife's maiden name is Mrkajic too?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Therefore, you are related to this family both by your
24 mother and through your wife; isn't that so?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Mr. Dordic, Bradina at the time was a component part of
2 the municipality of Konjic, wasn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In Konjic at the time members of all ethnic groups were
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The Muslim population was somewhat more numerous, but
8 everyone was living together; isn't that so?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The municipality has its legal bodies, the Assembly, its
11 committees, the MUP and others; isn't that so?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In April, while you were still working, you know that
14 Djuro Kuljanin was the Vice President of the Municipal
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The President was Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Djuro Kuljanin is a Serb?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Djuro Kuljanin was never dismissed from his position?
22 A. Yes. Until he left. I was not involved in politics
23 but I think they were virtually separated, just before
24 the war broke out.
25 Q. Mr. Dordic, you don't know that he was replaced. You
1 know that he came to Bradina, though, don't you?
2 A. When?
3 Q. At the end of April?
4 A. I was not aware that he came to Bradina.
5 Q. You were not aware that he was replaced either?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you. Mr. Dordic, you told the court
8 that within the framework of your self-organisation you
9 formed guard duty on the road in Bradina, checkpoint?
10 A. Members of the reserve police set up checkpoints.
11 Those who were reserve policemen, and when the reserve
12 police force withdrew -- I don't remember exactly when
13 -- they retreated to Podorasac from Bradina -- then
14 just those who were left from the reserve force
15 controlled the checkpoints from April onwards, let's say
16 from 20th April.
17 Q. Therefore, from April 20th in front of Mico's cafe on
18 the main road in Bradina there was a checkpoint held by
19 the local people of Bradina?
20 A. That's a mistake. Not in front of Mico's cafe.
21 Q. Tell me where.
22 A. In front of the butcher's shop owned by Edo. I don't
23 remember his surname and at the Ivan tunnel, in front of
24 the Ivan tunnel.
25 Q. That checkpoint was not put up by the Konjic
2 A. No.
3 Q. The persons who set up the checkpoints had no permission
4 from the executive board of the municipality, nor from
5 any other competent authority. Do you know that?
6 A. Yes, I do, but at that time there were no people passing
7 through Bradina any more. There were very few people.
8 Q. Those who were passed -- allowed to pass at the
10 A. Yes, at the checkpoint. I think that had to do with
11 Ilija and down there in Podorasac.
12 Q. Mr. Dordic, because you were in Konjic until April 19th
13 you know that a general mobilisation had been proclaimed
14 in Konjic on April 17th?
15 A. Yes. I received a call-up call, which I rejected.
16 Q. Therefore, you did not respond to the draft which you
18 A. Not the kind of call-up call that I received, because it
19 was stated --
20 Q. You know that refusal to respond to mobilisation
21 according to the law of our country, both the former
22 Yugoslavia and since, is a criminal offence?
23 A. I did not wish to respond to the call-up in the way it
24 was stated. It asked us to remove the old insignia
25 from uniforms, if we had any uniforms, that they would
1 give us new insignia, and that we should get our own
2 weapons. I did go where we were told to go, to the
3 local community premises, but there was nobody there
4 from Konjic.
5 Q. The only thing you did was to illegally get yourself a
6 weapon; isn't that so?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Mr. Dordic, you did -- you were not fired from the motel
9 where you worked the day you went off to Bradina?
10 A. The acting general manager at that time, Marko Draganic,
11 told me: "You're going on unpaid leave."
12 Q. And after that leave, you didn't go back?
13 A. No. My documents are still there.
14 Q. I hope you will be able to go back to work soon.
15 A. No, I don't believe so.
16 Q. Mr. Dordic, you testified in court that around 12th or
17 13th May the first attack occurred in the region of your
18 village, which you successfully repulsed; isn't that so?
19 A. I didn't take part in that. That was on the other
20 side, because Bradina covers an area of some 6 to 7 km.
21 as the crow flies. At least it was far away from my
23 Q. But the defenders who were there, they managed to reject
24 the attack. You know that your neighbour Zovko Zvonko
25 was in charge of that first attack?
1 A. And some people from Repovci -- who was an active duty
2 officer. I can't remember his name.
3 Q. But after that you started to arm with greater haste,
4 isn't that so?
5 A. No. After that we couldn't move anywhere. We simply
6 used the road that is 5 km. long between one tunnel and
7 the other.
8 Q. But you started digging trenches?
9 A. No. As far as I know, not a metre of trenches had been
10 dug out.
11 Q. So if your compatriots, the people from your town, said
12 so, then it is wrong?
13 A. I at least don't know that they were being dug out and
14 I did not participate in any trench digging.
15 Q. Mr. Dordic, are you aware that the authorities from
16 Konjic had tried through various negotiations to resolve
17 the problem of checkpoints and weapons?
18 A. Yes. I would hear from them when they came back from
19 these negotiations.
20 Q. Do you know that they asked -- that they addressed
21 almost an ultimatum that the weapons be handed in and
22 that the road be freed for circulation?
23 A. According to the information we were given on 25th,
24 negotiations were to have been held in Podorasac or
25 Bradina -- I'm not sure of that, of the place -- at
1 about noon or 1 o'clock. Agreement was supposed to
2 have been reached to hand over weapons and that we were
3 to be allowed peacefully to cross over into territory
4 held by the Serbs. At least that was the information
5 I received. However, instead of any such agreement an
6 attack ensued.
7 Q. I didn't ask you that. However, as you have already
8 testified, neither you nor the other people of Bradina
9 did not hand in your weapons until May 25th?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And these two checkpoints were not removed by that date,
12 the one in front of the butcher's and the other one in
13 front of the tunnel?
14 A. No.
15 Q. I think that you, like others, can testify before this
16 court that virtually anywhere or anywhere along a
17 highway, if checkpoints and barricades are put up, then
18 communication between Konjic and Sarajevo is virtually
20 A. I know that, but barricades were there long ago, so that
21 our barricades were not necessary at all. There were
22 no people passing through Bradina.
23 Q. But to go back to your earlier answer, you confirmed a
24 moment ago that some barricades were put up by the legal
25 authorities because of the immediate threat of war?
1 A. Yes. On 19th or 20th, the last time I went to Konjic,
2 I saw the checkpoint in Podorasac. This was 20th
4 Q. Very well. Your brother is Rajko Dordic, isn't he?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He was working in the Territorial Defence staff of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Your brother Rajko was not dismissed from the staff of
10 the Territorial Defence of Konjic, was he?
11 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that. He left of his
12 own accord.
13 Q. Roughly at the same time as you, around April 20th, he
14 came to Bradina?
15 A. Yes. I was the one to bring him back, because at that
16 time he didn't have a car.
17 Q. So you and your brother Rajko went from Konjic to
18 Bradina that day by car and you didn't go back until the
19 period of combat operations that you have discussed here
20 at length?
21 A. No, I didn't go back. That was the last time I left --
22 I went from there. Only when I was arrested I was
23 taken there by force.
24 Q. In view of the work he had in the Territorial Defence
25 staff, he had some experience in terms of the
1 self-defence of people; isn't that so?
2 A. Probably, but there was no organisation really at all.
3 Q. Nevertheless with his knowledge, he assisted people who
4 asked him for his advice?
5 A. He did.
6 Q. And he took part in the work of the crisis staff that
7 was formed in Bradina?
8 A. He did.
9 Q. Speaking before this Tribunal, Mr. Dordic, you recognised
10 on one of the photographs the type of weapon that you
11 had. It is an automatic rifle, isn't it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. As I have no understanding of weapons, even though
14 I have seen the picture, I would like to ask you whether
15 it is a rifle that we tend to call popularly a
17 A. The Muslims called it the gypsy, because it was
18 manufactured in Kragoviz.
19 Q. Therefore your rifle was of domestic make?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Dordic, you said that you purchased that gun on the
22 black market. Can you tell me whether you local people
23 in Bradina helped each other to find weapons?
24 A. Those who did helped each other, but -- who had secret
25 connections, but they carried their secret to their
2 Q. Is it true that you got your rifle from Branislav
4 A. He brought it to me and I gave him the money, as much as
5 he asked, and everything was all right.
6 Q. And you also received from Branislav Gligorevic 80
7 bullets, which you did not use during the operations?
8 A. Yes. I got some more later on, so I had a total of some
10 Q. You are acquainted with Relja Gligorevic, aren't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you help him to get a semi-automatic rifle with 150
13 bullets through those same channels?
14 A. Yes, I did, through Branislav Gligorevic.
15 Q. Mr. Dordic, you also know Milivoj Gligorevic, who was a
16 driver in the railways, Sarajevo Railway Company. As
17 he had more money, he helped him to get an automatic
18 rifle and 270 bullets?
19 A. I don't know about that.
20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms Residovic, how many longer are you
21 prepared to carry on. If you are concluding, okay.
22 I just want to know how much longer.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. President, I need
24 quite a bit of time yet.
25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We are at 5.30 now and we are not
1 likely to sit tomorrow. We are not likely to. The
2 next you can come is Monday at about 11 o'clock. So I
3 don't know. I don't think you can pursue this line of
4 cross-examination now. I didn't think you would take
5 so long a time, but you have your own ideas. I think
6 we will rise now and reassemble on Monday at 11.
7 (5.30 pm)
8 (Hearing adjourned until 11.00 on Monday morning)