Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4870

1 Monday, 14th July 1997

2 (11.00 am)

3 (In open session)

4 Mr Mirko Dordic (continued)

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 We are continuing with the cross-examination by

7 Ms Residovic. Can we have the witness?

8 (Witness enters court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have the appearances, please?

10 MR TURONE: Good morning, your Honour. I am Giuliano

11 Turone, prosecuting trial attorney. I am here with my

12 colleague Miss Teresa McHenry and Miss Elles van

13 Dusschoten, case manager. Our lead counsel, Mr Grant

14 Niemann, is still out of town. Thank you.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have defence appearances?

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

17 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, defence counsel for

18 Mr Zejnil Delalic. Together with me in the defence

19 team is Mr Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

20 MR OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

21 Honours. I am Zeljko Olujic, defence counsel for

22 Mr Zdravko Mucic. Together in the team is also

23 Mr Michael Greaves, attorney from UK and Northern

24 Ireland. He is not present this morning at the hearing

25 because he is preparing further evidence materials.

Page 4871

1 MR KARABDIC (in interpretation): My name is Salih Karabdic,

2 defence attorney for Mr Hazim Delic and together with me

3 in the team is Mr Tom Moran, attorney from Houston,

4 Texas. Thank you.

5 MR ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John

6 Ackerman, counsel for Mr Esad Landzo. My co-counsel is

7 Miss Cynthia McMurrey. Thank you.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Can we

9 continue, please?

10 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

11 Honours.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You have not reminded him of his oath,

13 have you? Remind him.

14 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you that you are still

15 testifying under oath?

16 A. (In interpretation): I understand.

17 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning,

18 Mr Dordic.

19 A. Good morning, ma'am.

20 Q. I would just like to remind you of a part of the

21 discussion we had on Thursday. At that time,

22 Mr Dordic, you said that you worked until 19th April and

23 on 20th April you went to Bradina with your brother,

24 Rajko; is that correct?

25 A. I always -- I continuously lived in Bradina. I worked

Page 4872

1 until 19th and on 20th I came down to Konjic to get my

2 brother Zarko, because he called me on the phone and

3 asked me to do that.

4 Q. And you did not work after that?

5 A. I was at that time in administration of the company and

6 Draganic Marko, who was the acting manager, told me that

7 I was going on unpaid leave.

8 Q. Thank you. I was just trying to recall that and bring

9 it up to speed?

10 MR TURONE: I beg your pardon. May I remind --

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Would counsel kindly give us a

12 breathing space so that it can be interpreted?

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

14 Honours. Mr Dordic, your company was the motel in

15 Konjic; is that correct?

16 A. The motel was just one of the units. Otherwise the

17 whole company was called Borasnica.

18 Q. Personally -- you personally worked until 19th in this

19 motel?

20 A. Yes, until the afternoon, after which I went home,

21 because I did not have transportation, so I had to get

22 the bus, if the bus worked. So Tomic Srecko stayed

23 there behind me.

24 Q. Thank you. On the south side next to the motel is the

25 house of Mr Delalic?

Page 4873

1 A. Yes. I don't know which side but I know that it's right

2 next to it.

3 Q. Next to it and off to the side you can see the entrance

4 to the premises of the discotheque that was on the

5 premises of this house; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Over on the other side is where the entrance is up to

8 the apartment?

9 A. Yes, on the side of the gas station and from there you

10 can see it clearly.

11 Q. These business premises worked throughout the period of

12 time that you were there?

13 A. Well, not all the time. Sometimes it would be open;

14 sometimes it would not.

15 Q. And you could see a number of people, people that you

16 knew, who entered those premises?

17 A. While it was working.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let's go back to the question

19 where we left off when we on Thursday went into recess

20 and stopped the cross-examination. You confirmed that

21 you knew Milovan Gligorevic but you did not remember

22 whether you helped him to get an automatic rifle; is

23 that correct?

24 A. (Not translated).

25 Q. Do you know Aleksa Gligorevic, who at that time was in

Page 4874

1 Bradina staying with his grandmother?

2 A. I do know that.

3 Q. Mr Dordic, you also helped him to get a semi-automatic

4 rifle?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We didn't get a translation to the

6 last question.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nodded.

8 A. Yes, I do know Aleksa Gligorevic.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But that wasn't what was indicated.

10 A. I may have said it too soon or something.

11 JUDGE JAN: You wait for the question.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Repeat the question.

13 JUDGE JAN: And don't nod. Give an oral reply. It has

14 to come on the record.

15 A. Very well.

16 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Dordic, you knew and

17 you do know Aleksa Gligorevic from Mostar, who at that

18 time was staying with his grandmother in Bradina; is

19 that correct?

20 A. I do know him, yes.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Hold on. You can go on now.

22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): You also helped him to

23 acquire a semi-automatic rifle in May of 1992; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's what I hear now from you.

Page 4875

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is your answer, whether you did

2 or you did not? What is your answer, not whether you

3 have just heard from counsel?

4 A. I don't know. I did not know about this.

5 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): In other words, you did

6 not help him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. On the second day of the fighting in Bradina you said

9 that you, together with a group of 12 persons, decided

10 to leave Bradina because in your estimation the forces

11 attacking Bradina were too numerous; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you decided to start going towards the territory

14 that was under the control of the Serbian forces?

15 A. I said that I did not know where we started. We

16 started in the direction across from Mount Bjelasnica so

17 that we would come out at either Hadici, Trnovo or

18 Kalinovik, because we assumed those territories were

19 under the control of Serbs, yes.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr Dordic. As you said, you buried your

21 weapon and you started without a weapon; is that right?

22 You put it away or you had it.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This was done by other persons in your group as well?

25 A. I don't know what they did with theirs. I know what

Page 4876

1 I did about my own. I know that none of us had any

2 weapons on them.

3 Q. Women and children remained in Bradina because, as you

4 said, you knew that nobody was going to touch women and

5 children; is that correct?

6 A. We assumed that. I regretted having to leave my wife

7 and children.

8 Q. Mr Dordic, you know and later your brother and other

9 people told you about this, you knew that at the same

10 time when you did, another group left Bradina, but in

11 another direction, a group of 30 persons led by your

12 brother, Rajko Dordic; is that correct?

13 A. I only heard that when I arrived in Celebici.

14 Q. But you found that out directly then?

15 A. Yes, in Celebici. In Celebici.

16 Q. You also knew that this group was -- you learned that

17 this group also was going in the direction of Kalinovik;

18 is that correct?

19 A. Madam, to clarify this, when we got going, we didn't

20 know where the other group was, because this group of 12

21 that I was in was together.

22 Q. Very well, Mr Dordic. When you heard from your brother

23 that they also were leaving the territory of Bradina,

24 you learned that they were going in the direction of the

25 Kalinovik municipality?

Page 4877

1 A. That was only in September of 1992.

2 Q. Yes, but you learned that directly from your brother?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr Dordic, can you tell us, Kalinovik was a stronghold

5 of the JNA before the war, wasn't it?

6 A. I did not know that.

7 Q. And now we all know that this is the birth place of

8 General Mladic?

9 A. I'm just finding this out from you now, that it's the

10 birth place of him.

11 Q. Mr Dordic, you said that you were arrested on Mount

12 Bjelasnica at some very hard to reach place, through

13 which you were passing; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And this place is rather far from Konjic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. This place is not on the territory of the Konjic

18 municipality?

19 A. I don't know where it belongs.

20 Q. If I reminded you, that could be the wider area of the

21 Sarajevo Metropolitan area; that could be either of the

22 municipality of Trnovo or of Hadzici?

23 A. Maybe. I don't know. It could be.

24 Q. You didn't recognise anybody among the people who

25 arrested you; is that correct?

Page 4878

1 A. No.

2 Q. You already told us that you knew a lot of people in

3 Konjic as a waiter. The persons who arrested you were

4 not persons from Konjic; is that correct?

5 A. Maybe they were. I just don't know.

6 Q. Mr Dordic, you were questioned on Mount Igman and in

7 Tarcin?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. You don't know who decided that you should be

10 transferred back to Konjic and to Celebici from these

11 places?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. As you already stated previously, you found out from

14 your brother that they were taken prisoner near the

15 village of Ljuta. That is also rather far away from

16 Konjic, isn't it?

17 A. I found that out after five or six days and Sadik

18 Dzumhur told me this.

19 Q. Yes, but my question is that the village of Ljuta is

20 fairly far away from Konjic?

21 A. I had never heard of this place Ljuta before. I had

22 heard of another place called Ljuta where there was a

23 fishing pond, but not of this one.

24 Q. This Ljuta that you knew about was near Konjic and this

25 one is in the larger Sarajevo Metropolitan area near

Page 4879

1 Mount Bjelasnica?

2 A. I don't know, but I have a question. Your Honours,

3 does this have anything to do with this trial, these

4 questions?

5 Q. May I proceed, your Honours?

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

7 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. To go back

8 to your participation in the defence of Bradina in the

9 manner that you described before this Trial Chamber, you

10 said you got your rifle from Branislav Gligorevic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And on 25th May 1992 you were occupying a position in

13 Jasika; is that correct?

14 A. Jasika is the hamlet where I was born and where I lived.

15 Q. That night you spent on the front line with your weapon,

16 from which you did not fire; is that correct?

17 A. What night?

18 Q. 25th-26th May?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You remained there until the evening of that day, as you

21 stated?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Only in the evening you withdrew and you spent the night

24 on the side of a creek?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4880

1 Q. And early on the 28th you started towards Mount

2 Bjelasnica; is that correct?

3 A. On 27th, as far as I know.

4 Q. My mistake. I apologise. You said 27th: you stated

5 before this Trial Chamber that in Celebici there existed

6 a commission for questioning of the detained persons; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You knew that the President of this commission was Goran

10 Lokas?

11 A. At that time I did not know who it was.

12 Q. Otherwise you knew that Goran Lokas was the judge in the

13 Demeanors Court in Konjic, did you not?

14 A. I know that he worked in the court but I didn't know

15 that he was the President of that court.

16 Q. In this commission which questioned the detained persons

17 there were also the investigators of the MUP and the

18 representatives of the HVO and the TO of Konjic; is that

19 correct?

20 A. I don't know who was there. I know who some

21 individuals were. I know the individual investigators

22 but I don't know who they represented. I was not clear

23 on that.

24 Q. Very well.

25 A. Because there were investigators who had nothing to do

Page 4881

1 with the MUP.

2 Q. This commission, Mr Dordic, after your questioning, was

3 putting the detainees into different categories based on

4 what type of weapons these people possessed; is that

5 correct?

6 A. What criteria they used, that I don't know.

7 Q. But you know that they were putting detainees into

8 certain categories?

9 A. We only learned that later. We only found that out

10 later through certain individuals who were there in the

11 camp.

12 Q. As you stated before the Trial Chamber, since you

13 possessed an automatic weapon, you were placed in the

14 top category?

15 A. Yes, that's what I said.

16 Q. Can you confirm, Mr Dordic, that your brother Stravko

17 also had a semi-automatic rifle, which he later turned

18 in and he also acquired through Stravan Vujicic?

19 A. I don't know who he got it from. I didn't know that.

20 Q. But you knew that he had it and that he turned it in,

21 just as you did?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You also confirmed that after the visit of the

24 International Red Cross the situation in the Celebici

25 camp improved?

Page 4882

1 A. Only partly.

2 Q. You said that in Hangar 6 there was up to 250 persons

3 and on 31st August 120 of them remained there; is that

4 correct?

5 A. We never took count. We never took count there. It

6 was approximately -- that was the approximate number

7 that was told to us by people that delivered food.

8 Q. But these are approximate figures, maximum 250 and on

9 31st August 120 according to your recollection?

10 A. 100-120, between 100 and 120.

11 Q. In this period of time between 130 and 150 persons were

12 either released or transferred to Musala; is that

13 correct?

14 A. I did not know where they were going. They were going

15 somewhere. I did not know where they were going, but

16 I know that they were going. On the basis of the

17 knowledge of the guards there, some were going home and

18 some were going to the Sports Hall at Musala.

19 Q. You also stated that you were in the last group, which

20 consisted of 32 people when in November you were

21 transferred to Musala; isn't that so?

22 A. Not in November; in December.

23 Q. There were 32 of you then; is that so?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. From August 31st until you were transferred a further 90

Page 4883

1 men were either released or transferred to Musala; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You also said that your brother, Rajko Dordic, was

5 treated like some kind of a leader or organiser in

6 Celebici; isn't that so?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. He too had an automatic rifle and 150 bullets, which,

9 upon capture, he surrendered. That is what you told

10 you; isn't that so?

11 A. I never saw him with that rifle.

12 Q. But he told you that he had surrendered his weapon when

13 he was captured?

14 A. I have never seen him with a rifle, so please don't try

15 to confuse me.

16 Q. I apologise if I'm confusing you. I'm just checking

17 some facts which you, as a witness, may be familiar

18 with. Is it true that your position was rather

19 difficult because of your position and relationship with

20 your brother?

21 A. Well, yes. Some of the guards would come and torture

22 me psychologically, so that there were moments when I

23 didn't know what to do with myself.

24 Q. In connection with your statements, the statement that

25 you made in the Mraziste Hotel, where allegedly you were

Page 4884

1 questioned by Miroslav Bozic, you said that they treated

2 you correctly. My question is: did you sign that

3 statement?

4 A. I did, but only it was handwritten. The statement was

5 handwritten.

6 Q. The statement you made in Celebici, will you please tell

7 me first -- let us recall who it was who questioned you?

8 A. Miro Stenek and somebody called Tomic.

9 Q. Were other persons there present while Stenek and Tomic

10 were questioning you?

11 A. The typist, Ismeta.

12 Q. What you were saying was dictated and typed on a

13 typewriter?

14 A. What Tomic or Stenek was saying was typed down.

15 Q. And they were saying what you had answered in response

16 to their questions?

17 A. Probably, because I didn't read that statement when

18 I signed it.

19 Q. But you listened to the dictation?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Stenek or Tomic did not mistreat you in any way or apply

22 any kind of force, any threats or anything like that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You have already answered my next question, that is that

25 you signed that statement, didn't you?

Page 4885

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After being transferred to Musala in December, in

3 January in 1993 you were interrogated again; isn't that

4 so?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. At the time the commission included Jasna Dzumhur?

7 A. I know that Dino Bektasevic was there. I don't

8 remember the others.

9 Q. Dino Bektasevic, whom you knew from before as a judge of

10 the court of Konjic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr Bektasevic treated you correctly as well?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. The statement that you made at the time included what

15 you were saying or consisted of what you were saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You signed this statement too?

18 A. Yes. I should like to ask you, Mr Dordic, with the

19 assistance of the usher, to examine this report and to

20 see whether it is your statement. I have a copy for

21 the prosecution and for the Trial Chamber: can this

22 copy be marked, please, and shown to the witness?

23 MR TURONE: Can I see this document, please?

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I did provide a copy for

25 the prosecution.

Page 4886

1 Mr Dordic, do you recognise your signature on this

2 document?

3 A. It shouldn't be like this.

4 JUDGE JAN: This is what you said in the court. This is

5 exactly what you said in this court.

6 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Yes.

7 A. I don't remember that I signed it like this.

8 Q. It contains all the things that you have just said in

9 this courtroom; isn't that so?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR TURONE: May I object, your Honours, or at least know

12 why this piece of paper was not shown to the Prosecution

13 in advance. It was used for impeachment reasons

14 only. If it is a different reason, we should complain,

15 because we didn't have any possibility to see it in

16 advance. Thank you, your Honour.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is it impeaching him now? Is this

18 impeaching him now? I'm asking counsel: is this

19 impeaching him?

20 MR TURONE: Not in our opinion, your Honour, so I would

21 complain for having not been shown this document in due

22 time to the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted. It's admitted.

24 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Mr Dordic,

25 I have no further questions. Thank you.

Page 4887

1 MR TURONE: Your Honour, he did not recognise his

2 signature.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He said he didn't sign it this way.

4 That's what he said.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I will look at the transcript, what he

7 said.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

9 Honours. I have no further question for the witness.

10 MR TURONE: Your Honours, we object for the record. He

11 did not recognise his signature, according to what

12 appears in the transcript.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Did you sign the document? Show it to

14 him.

15 A. At the time I only signed "Dordic". I used to sign as

16 "Dordic".

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So you are denying that this is your

18 signature? Are you saying that this is not your

19 signature?

20 A. I doubt that it is. I can't claim with certainty, but

21 I doubt that it is.

22 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr Dordic, you said that

23 that was the contents of what you said here before this

24 Trial Chamber?

25 A. I did say something to this effect, but I doubt what is

Page 4888

1 said about "Mirko". It's written in a different way.

2 Q. Is the surname "Dordic" -- does this correspond to the

3 way you sign it?

4 A. It's similar. It's something like that, but at the

5 time you can find all my documents in Konjic. You can

6 see the way I used to sign my name in those days.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He is disputing his signature.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): A part of his

9 signature. He says that he didn't -- that "Mirko" was

10 not written. So I would like to ask the witness to

11 sign his name several times, since the Trial Chamber

12 cannot admit the document.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He has not said anything different

14 from what he has been saying here. Why are you

15 insisting on it? You are wasting too much time on

16 irrelevancies. He has not said anything different from

17 what he has said here.

18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Very well, your

19 Honours. In that case I withdraw the proposal for the

20 admission of this exhibit. Thank you. I have

21 finished my cross-examination.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you any re-examination?

23 MR TURONE: We have no questions for re-examination, your

24 Honour. Thank you. Yes, Mr Ackerman?

25 MR ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have been talking to the

Page 4889

1 Office of the Prosecutor about agreeing to a medical

2 examination for this witness, the last time just before

3 we started this morning, and I am assuming we have such

4 an agreement. If not, then I would make that as a

5 specific request to the court, that he be examined prior

6 to leaving The Hague.

7 MR TURONE: We had actually this agreement and so we

8 agreed.

9 MR ACKERMAN: Very good. Thank you, Mr Turone.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think that's the last for this

11 witness. You are discharged, subject to a medical

12 examination before you leave.

13 A. Thank you.

14 (Witness withdrew from court)

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you any other witness?

16 MS McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. We do have another

17 witness. He is a protected witness, so there would

18 have to be some sort of rearrangement of the

19 courtroom. (Pause).

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Invite the witness, please. You can

21 swear the witness.

22 Witness M (sworn)

23 Examined by Ms McHenry

24 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.

25 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, may I ask that the witness be

Page 4890

1 seated? Thank you.

2 Sir, am I correct that you have requested that

3 your name and identity not be released to the public or

4 media?

5 A. (In interpretation): Yes.

6 Q. You will thus be known as Mr M; do you understand that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Your Honours, with the usher's assistance, I would like

9 the witness to be shown a piece of paper with his name

10 on it. The defence counsel is aware of his name.

11 Sir, I ask if you can confirm that this is, in fact,

12 your name?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour. So the record is

16 clear, the transcript says "N", as in "November".

17 I believe it is "M", as in "Mike".

18 MS McHENRY: Mr Moran is correct. It is "M", as in

19 "Mike".

20 Mr M, how old are you at the present time?

21 A. 39.

22 Q. What is your ethnic background?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. I'm going to ask, sir, if you can, just to speak up a

25 little bit, to make sure the interpreters can hear you

Page 4891

1 without a problem. Mr M, in 1992 what was your

2 profession?

3 A. I was working in the Yugoslav railways, marketing of the

4 Yugoslav railways.

5 Q. Where were you living in the beginning of 1992?

6 A. In a place called Bradina.

7 Q. Were you a member of the SDS at that time?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In fact, were you an officer within the SDS?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you explain what post you held and for what part?

12 Was it the SDS for all Konjic or just for Bradina? Can

13 you just please explain that?

14 A. I had the post of treasurer in the local committee of

15 Bradina, in the local Bradina committee of the SDS.

16 Q. Okay. In 1992, sir, were you armed or were you part of

17 any kind of military or police unit?

18 A. I belonged to the reserve police force for the local

19 board.

20 Q. Were you armed as part of -- being part of this unit,

21 the force?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What kind of weapon did you have?

24 A. An automatic rifle.

25 Q. Can you please describe a little bit just about how this

Page 4892

1 unit functions, for instance how many persons there

2 were; did you wear uniforms; was someone in charge; what

3 was the relationship between this police force and the

4 Konjic?

5 A. Before the conflict broke out the reserve police force

6 belonged to the municipality of Konjic. Immediately

7 after the outbreak of the conflict people of other

8 ethnic groups -- I'm thinking of the Muslims and the

9 Croats -- they joined other committees, so that there

10 was a shortage of manpower to normally perform their

11 functions on the territory of the local community of

12 Bradina. Upon the call of one of the commanders

13 I accepted and joined as a member of the reserve police

14 force. Before the conflict representatives of various

15 ethnic groups were mixed together evenly. When the

16 conflict broke out, only Serbs remained in Bradina.

17 All the others left.

18 Q. So, sir, after the conflict broke out, when you were a

19 member of this unit, was the unit part of the Konjic

20 reserve police or acting more or less on its own, not

21 part of Konjic?

22 A. It was acting more independently, because nobody from

23 the Konjic force wanted to come to Bradina.

24 Q. Did the people in this unit, including you, wear

25 uniforms?

Page 4893

1 A. Mostly, yes.

2 Q. Was someone in charge of your unit?

3 A. Yes, the Commander of the unit.

4 Q. Did you yourself wear a uniform?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were there persons in Bradina involved in patrolling or

7 defending the village who were not part of this -- what

8 you referred to as the police unit?

9 A. Immediately upon the outbreak of the conflict, yes.

10 Q. Did those people wear uniforms and were they part of

11 your unit?

12 A. There weren't enough uniforms, so that everyone didn't

13 have uniform, but they were a part of the defence of the

14 village.

15 Q. Did there come a time when there was military action in

16 Bradina?

17 MR OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, it is not an

18 objection. Mr Zdravko Mucic asks whether the screen

19 could be opened out a little, because he cannot see the

20 witness from his seat?

21 A. Da (not translated).

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let him see it.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness maybe move closer to the

24 microphone?

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let the witness move closer to the

Page 4894

1 microphone. You can carry on.

2 MS McHENRY: Thank you. Did there come a time when there

3 was military action in Bradina?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When was that approximately?

6 A. Approximately May 10th, 11th, 12th.

7 Q. Okay. Later on in May was there also additional

8 military action?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. When was that?

11 A. After 20th.

12 Q. Did you participate in any defence of the village during

13 the military action?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Were you armed at that time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you do during the action?

18 A. Well, let me see. We had positions, checkpoints,

19 surrounding the village, on the edges of the village, so

20 that we patrolled and checked movements in the direction

21 of our village.

22 Q. Sir, let me just maybe ask you more specifically, with

23 respect to the military action that started some time

24 after the 20th, can you just very briefly explain what

25 you did and what happened to you, including whether or

Page 4895

1 not at some point you were captured or arrested?

2 A. During the attack I was on the southern checkpoint in

3 the direction of the village of Zukici and Sunje, at the

4 checkpoint called Jelovac. The attack began with a

5 generalised shelling and an infantry attack on all the

6 edges, that is along the whole length of the defence

7 lines. The centre of the village where our women and

8 children were was shelled. We tried to set up

9 defences, but people didn't really take it seriously

10 enough and they withdrew. The enemy forces entered the

11 edges of the village. We had to retreat towards the

12 centre. I personally saw the incursion into my native

13 village, where I didn't live later on. I saw with my

14 own eyes the house of my parents burning and all the

15 surrounding houses burning. People who were fleeing

16 reported that more than ten men had been killed in that

17 village, civilian men, that women and children were

18 being expelled, mistreated, beaten, that they were

19 threatening them. I tried to break through to the

20 other part of the locality. However, reports reached

21 us that whoever fled, they were threatening to kill

22 their wives and children, so that I was forced, together

23 with some other married men, to go back to the centre to

24 surrender our weapons and to await our further fate.

25 Q. So am I correct, sir, that you surrendered and turned

Page 4896

1 over your weapon?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The soldiers to whom you surrendered, do you know where

4 they were from, what unit or what force?

5 A. It was night. I didn't see anybody. I could not

6 recognise anyone. I only know that they were members

7 either of the TO or the paramilitary units that attacked

8 our village.

9 Q. After you surrendered, sir, where were you brought?

10 A. I was taken on a truck and transferred to the Celebici

11 camp.

12 Q. Just for now can you tell us how long a period of time

13 you spent in the Celebici camp before you were released

14 or transferred?

15 A. In Celebici itself, including the tunnel and the hangar,

16 I spent about three months, a little bit more than three

17 months.

18 Q. About how many persons were brought to Celebici at the

19 same time as you as part of the same group?

20 A. About 20 persons as part of the group, but about an hour

21 or two later another 30 persons, maybe even more, were

22 brought into the camp.

23 Q. Without going into details, sir, can you just simply

24 tell me whether you were or were not mistreated either

25 at the time you were arrested or during the

Page 4897

1 transportation, as you were brought to Celebici?

2 A. Yes. From the time I was -- from the moment I was

3 captured, I was beaten, and I was beaten during the

4 transportation to the Celebici, and also beaten while

5 taken to the Tunnel Number 9, and throughout my stay in

6 Celebici I was also beaten.

7 Q. Sir, let me bring you to the time that you first arrived

8 at Celebici. Can up please tell us what happened when

9 you first arrived at the Celebici camp?

10 A. When we were unloaded off the truck in which we arrived

11 at Celebici, we were met by the welcoming committee, as

12 it was called by them, a few strong guys, who took

13 everything we had, and here I mean all the gold, the

14 watches, wallets, keys.

15 Q. Sir, let me interrupt you just to clarify that. Was

16 anything taken from you personally at this time,

17 anything of value?

18 A. Yes. A chain, a ring, wallet. I don't know how much

19 money I had in there. My keys to the apartment. They

20 took all that.

21 Q. Did you ever get any of these items back?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was there anything of value that you were able to keep?

24 A. Yes. I managed to hide my engagement ring.

25 Q. Please continue, sir, with what happened to you after

Page 4898

1 you were brought to Celebici?

2 A. When we were loaded off the truck, those things were

3 taken away from me. We were all beaten. I was beaten

4 personally, and we were put into the Tunnel 9, the

5 so-called Number 9. I saw a few persons there who had

6 been brought in before I did. They were part of my

7 group. We were all beaten up. I bled. My left arm

8 was bleeding and I felt like I was losing

9 consciousness. I asked someone for help and one of

10 them tore their tee-shirt and helped me bandage my arm.

11 Q. How long did you stay in the tunnel?

12 A. About seven days.

13 Q. Can you tell us approximately where you sat within the

14 tunnel? Was it near the entrance, the middle or towards

15 the back?

16 A. Since I got off the truck one of the first, I was

17 sitting in the back of the tunnel, the part where people

18 went to the toilet, around there.

19 Q. Okay. During the approximately seven days that you

20 stayed in the tunnel were you yourself ever mistreated

21 during that time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would you please tell us exactly what happened to you?

24 A. I was brought out by a soldier. I only knew him by

25 sight. I didn't know his name. They made me put my

Page 4899

1 hands behind my head and I was beaten there with some

2 objects and kicked. I fell a few times. I was back

3 up and then again taken to the tunnel.

4 Q. Did anything particular happen such that the beating of

5 you was stopped or finished?

6 A. No. I think the reason was new persons who had been

7 captured on Mount Bjelasnica were being brought in.

8 Q. During the first seven or so days that you were kept in

9 the tunnel were you ever interrogated?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Okay. Were you ever interrogated at any time while you

12 were in Celebici?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Would you please just describe briefly your

15 interrogation, when it was and who it was who

16 interrogated you?

17 A. After about seven days I was transferred to the

18 hangar. I don't know exactly. It was about a month,

19 a month and a half, maybe up to two months in the hangar

20 when I was called out with several other witnesses, and

21 I was escorted to the administration, to the command

22 building, and there we were lined up, our hands against

23 a wall, and we waited to be called in.

24 I was questioned by Mr Mladen Pekar -- sorry --

25 Kuhar, Kuhar. I knew him personally from the high

Page 4900

1 school and we were colleagues. I was escorted by

2 Mr Delic from the hangar to the command building.

3 I was questioned there. I was insulted. There were

4 different kinds of insults and provocations. I was

5 questioned about the statement and I signed something

6 that I never read. That was on one occasion in

7 Celebici.

8 Q. After the approximately seven days you spent in the

9 tunnel where were you brought and, if you know, why were

10 you moved from the tunnel?

11 A. Approximately seven days later they told me to pack up

12 and they said to hurry up. We were all beaten up, so

13 we had to help each other to help each other outside.

14 We were lined up against a wall. We supported each

15 other, so that we wouldn't fall. Then we were ordered

16 to turn around. There was a line-up across from us and

17 those were the people that had just been brought in.

18 They had apparently just been arrested. These were our

19 neighbours, our relatives. I think that the reason for

20 us being brought out of Number 9 was to put them in.

21 Q. Where were you brought, sir, after you were taken out of

22 the tunnel?

23 A. We were taken to the hangar.

24 Q. Were you ever mistreated, sir, during the time that you

25 spent in the hangar, and I'm not here asking for

Page 4901

1 details? I'm just asking if you were or were not

2 mistreated at any time while you were in the hangar?

3 A. Yes, many times.

4 Q. On the occasions when you were mistreated, were you told

5 anything about -- that led you to believe why you in

6 particular had been selected for mistreatment?

7 A. Sometimes yes; sometimes no.

8 Q. On those occasions where something in particular was

9 said to you can you please give us an idea -- could you

10 please give us more details about that? What was said

11 to you that led you to believe why you had been

12 selected?

13 A. It's hard to say why but during one of the beatings

14 Mr Zenga asked me whether I went to church and whether

15 I crossed myself. That was before he started beating

16 me, and I didn't know what to respond. He said: "No",

17 because I didn't have time. I was very busy. Then he

18 started beating me. In other words, the question

19 itself was -- I don't know why this question.

20 Q. Was any mention, sir, ever made about your political

21 activities in Bradina?

22 A. Yes. Not in the sense -- on that sense; more that I was

23 a Cetnik and things like that. I was insulted on

24 ethnic basis.

25 Q. Can you please tell us as much as you can

Page 4902

1 chronologically what happened to you when you yourself

2 were mistreated, and if you can, I would like you to

3 tell us the first incident that you remember?

4 A. I was mistreated and threatened with death, that I would

5 be sentenced to death. I was insulted. "Where are

6 your children and wife?", all these things that really

7 kills you inside, that morally ruins you. You mean --

8 sorry. I did not understand your question. You mean

9 the first time I was beaten.

10 Q. The first time, yes, not the time you were in the tunnel

11 but after you were moved to the hangar, please, the

12 first time that you were beaten?

13 A. I was beaten up by Kravar. I don't know his first and

14 last name. I know that his nickname was Kravar.

15 I was brought out. I was made to lie down on

16 concrete. They put a wooden stick which was about half

17 a metre long -- it was put into my mouth. I had to

18 keep my hands on the back of my head, and he and another

19 guy, he beat me with the stick and the other one was

20 kicking me. The worst blow came from Kravar in the

21 part of the leg from my knees down to my soles, and then

22 I was also getting blows in the kidney area. That was

23 the first beating after Number 9.

24 Q. Can you please tell us the second beating that you

25 remember?

Page 4903

1 A. The second beating I think was around the time of the

2 visit of I think it was an Arabic television crew. At

3 that time I was beaten by Mr Delic. I received several

4 blows in the hangar itself and then I was brought

5 outside and beaten while the TV cameras were filming.

6 I don't know how long it went on. I know that

7 I received a lot of blows and I was close to losing

8 consciousness. That was the second beating.

9 Q. Please continue, sir, with the next beating that you

10 remember.

11 A. The next beating was -- in my case there was no next

12 beating. In my case it was a daily beating. When

13 I say "beating", I'm referring to being brought out and

14 being beaten up. I do not count in there that Mr Delic

15 would daily come to the place where I was and he would

16 stand in front of me. I had to raise my head and allow

17 him to kick me in my chest area every day. In other

18 words, it was daily. The next beating -- I mean mass

19 beating -- mass beating happened when Messrs -- in fact,

20 Mr Delic brought me out personally, as well as Zenga.

21 They were looking for someone who was working with the

22 railroads. Everybody who did that had to get up, those

23 who worked for the railroads. There were maybe ten,

24 fifteen persons there. Delic took one of them out.

25 The rest of us sat down. Several minutes later this

Page 4904

1 guy was brought back and Delic pointed his finger at me

2 and told me to come out. He brought me to the corner

3 of the hangar. I could hear very well when somebody

4 said: "That's the one".

5 Q. Sir, when you say the corner of the hangar, do you mean

6 inside the hangar or outside the hangar?

7 A. Outside the hangar. He took me outside.

8 Q. What happened after you heard a person say: "That's the

9 one"?

10 A. Then Delic turned around. He went back about 10 metres

11 from where I was. His car was parked there. He sat

12 into the car. Zenga stayed with me and there was

13 another civilian there. I think he worked for a

14 butcher and he used to keep -- he used to tend to the

15 sheep within the perimeter. On Zenga's order I had to

16 kneel down, put my hands behind my back -- behind my

17 head, the back of my head, and allow him to hit me with

18 karate chops and kick me in the chest area. This went

19 on for a while. He would kick me until I would fall

20 and then he would raise me again and on and on. This

21 went on until I lost consciousness. After that they

22 poured water on me. I came to. He put several pieces

23 of newspaper, made fire, took out a knife.

24 Q. Who is "he"? When you say "he took out a newspaper and

25 made a fire", who are you referring to?

Page 4905

1 A. I'm referring to Zenga. He heated a knife on this

2 flame and he forced me to take this knife with my bare

3 palm. I took it gingerly and I tried to simulate.

4 However, he took my palms and took them in his own hands

5 so that I could feel my own burnt flesh. He carved a

6 cross into my palm.

7 Q. What do you mean when you say: "He carved a cross"? Do

8 you mean from the burning knife a cross was made on your

9 hand? I'm trying to ask whether or not --

10 A. Yes. Two strokes.

11 Q. I'm just trying to -- the cross was made from the burns

12 rather than from you being cut with the knife; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. No. No. No. Yes. The cross was burnt in.

15 Q. Okay. Please continue.

16 A. After that I was brought back into the hangar. I was

17 carried in, because I was not able to come in on my

18 own. My hand was -- looked so bad and hurt so much

19 that I had a swelling and I got an infection of the

20 hand. Several days later after this incident when

21 I was called out by a couple of soldiers to be beaten

22 again, because they told me --

23 Q. Sir, I'm going to actually -- before we move on, I want

24 to ask you: during the time that Zenga was kicking you

25 and held the knife over you, do you remember anything

Page 4906

1 about what was being said? In other words, was anything

2 being said to you or yelled at you?

3 A. No. He just told this man who was holding a rifle: "If

4 he moves, shoot".

5 Q. During this incident, including to the time you were

6 brought back to the hangar, did you ever see Mr Delic

7 again?

8 A. Yes. While I was being beaten, I saw Delic in the Fica,

9 the small Fiat. While I was still conscious he was

10 there all the time. I am not sure he stayed to the

11 end, but he was there for the first five minutes.

12 Q. About how far away was the car from where you were?

13 A. Roughly up to 10 metres, not further.

14 Q. At any point immediately after this or at some

15 subsequent point did Mr Delic say anything to you about

16 what had happened?

17 A. Yes. When he saw my hand, he said: "If anyone asks, you

18 know what happened. You were smoking, you fell asleep

19 and that's how it happened".

20 Q. Do you remember when it was that Mr Delic told you this,

21 to tell someone that you'd fallen asleep with a

22 cigarette?

23 A. Inside the hangar, when I was thrown in. When

24 I reached my place he came up to me and said. "Do you

25 know what you were doing? You were smoking and you fell

Page 4907

1 asleep".

2 Q. Going forward now, sir, you were starting to tell about

3 a couple of days later when you were called out of the

4 hangar again. Can you please describe what happened

5 then?

6 A. Just a few days later, maybe two or three days later,

7 I was taken out by two soldiers. I think they were not

8 guards. They told me that I had greetings from a

9 neighbour in Repovci and that they would hand it to me

10 in person, these greetings. I was taken out and in

11 spite of the condition I was in, one of them said:

12 "Look, I can't beat him in this state. Take him

13 back". So I was taken back without being beaten on that

14 occasion.

15 Q. Can you describe after this what kind of -- in the

16 period after you had been kicked and burned what kind of

17 visible injuries you had, if any?

18 A. The injuries were obvious on my palm. My palm was

19 totally swollen. There were no visible injuries on the

20 skin, but I was beaten up. I couldn't stand.

21 I couldn't move. I was unable. You couldn't see

22 anything on my face, but at first glance you could see

23 that I had been beaten up. That's why I was released.

24 Q. What happened to your hand? Did it heal immediately?

25 A. No. For a long time it was very painful. My palm was

Page 4908

1 like this (indicating), so big. It was like a large

2 apple. There was pus underneath, I don't know what.

3 After the blister burst and when it started to fester,

4 only then was I allowed to be seen by a doctor.

5 I received -- I don't know -- an ointment and this

6 helped me.

7 Q. Who gave you the ointment, sir?

8 A. Mr Relja, the doctor.

9 Q. Was there any other time, sir, other than what you've

10 already told us, about where you were mistreated in the

11 camp?

12 A. Yes. The next beating occurred I can't remember exactly

13 how many days later, but I was taken out at night.

14 I was taken out. Before me Lazar Savic had been taken

15 out and beaten up. Then it was my turn. I was taken

16 out. Zenga and Delic were waiting for me outside with

17 three other men, who were not from Celebici, who were

18 from Tarcin, called Repa, Gumeni and Paja. I had to

19 lean up against the wall. Somebody put a mask on my

20 head from behind, a gas mask. The mask was tightly

21 screwed on. I couldn't breathe. I was ordered to lie

22 down on the concrete. They took off my trousers as far

23 as the knees. Then I felt that they put some powder

24 over me. I couldn't feel pain. I could just feel

25 something dropping on me. I was taken by hands and

Page 4909

1 legs and placed under the manhole. Then I was showered

2 with water. Then I felt terrible pain and terrible

3 burns. After that came the beating, all over my back

4 from my back to my legs. I felt the worst pain in the

5 lower part of my back, the pelvic bone. At first the

6 worst thing was the lack of air. I was choking.

7 I tried to remove the mask and I couldn't. Maybe after

8 some time -- I don't know how long it was -- but I know

9 that I lost consciousness several times. The last time

10 I came to I felt air that I could breathe. The mask

11 had been removed. Only then did I feel the terrible

12 pain in my back and in the area of the pelvic bone.

13 They forced me to go into the hangar. I tried to move

14 as soon as possible fearing fresh blows.

15 Q. Who told you to go back to the hangar, sir?

16 A. One of them. I can't remember who it was. I wasn't

17 quite all there. I tried to reach the hangar as

18 quickly as I could, but I couldn't move. Then they

19 threw me into the hangar, two of them. They just threw

20 me inside the door. Then I asked one of the prisoners

21 to help me reach my place. Nobody dared. After a few

22 minutes my brother approached and he literally dragged

23 me to my place, and Delic came in then and took my

24 brother out. He received a couple of blows for helping

25 me to reach my place. He didn't stay out long.

Page 4910

1 Q. Did you have any injuries? Were you injured at all as a

2 result of this beating?

3 A. Injuries? Again they were not visible. It was not my

4 skin that had been injured. I had five ribs

5 fractured. I had my pelvic bone fractured. I was

6 immobile for 12 days. My father helped me. I even

7 couldn't use the toilet. I couldn't go outside.

8 I had to do it on the spot. My father moved my arm, my

9 leg, my body. He would place me in a position that

10 suited me better.

11 Q. Sir, when you talk about bones being broken, is this

12 something you were told at the time, or were you told

13 this afterwards? I mean, was it something you were told

14 while you were at the camp?

15 A. No. Nobody examined me at all. I had no medical

16 treatment.

17 Q. Sir, going back, for this incident that you just

18 described, do you remember exactly who it was who called

19 you out for this beating?

20 A. For this last incident?

21 Q. Yes, sir.

22 A. Yes, Delic, Delic.

23 Q. Then after you were outside, before the gas mask was put

24 on you, who were you able to observe outside?

25 A. Delic, Zenga and three men from Tarcin, as I said,

Page 4911

1 Gumeni, Pava and Repa -- Paja.

2 Q. As soon as the gas mask was put on you, were you able to

3 tell or see who was doing the beating or other things

4 you have described with the powder?

5 A. No. I couldn't see. It was night, the gas mask was on

6 my head. I was fighting for my breath. I couldn't

7 even think or look or anything.

8 Q. Okay. Sir, was that the last time you were mistreated

9 that you remember? Severe mistreating. I know you

10 have already discussed some daily activities.

11 A. So severely, yes. In addition to the daily events, the

12 visit of the Red Cross.

13 Q. Let me -- sir, you mentioned Zenga. Can you tell us,

14 if you know, what Zenga's real name is and if you knew

15 him from before?

16 A. No. He was younger than me. I didn't know him before

17 the war. I heard from the prisoners that that was his

18 name and they all called him like that. So I didn't

19 know him from before.

20 Q. What was Zenga's role in the camp?

21 A. Zenga's role in the camp, you should ask Mr Delic and

22 Mr Pavo, but my personal opinion was that he was the

23 right hand, the executioner, the man who executed their

24 orders. Sometimes he decided independently.

25 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not Zenga was a guard at the

Page 4912

1 camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During the time that you were at the camp, did you ever

4 learn his real name, or did you always just know him as

5 Zenga?

6 A. I knew him as "Zenga". Somebody who knew him from

7 before, who went to school with him, said his name was

8 Osman.

9 Q. Was anyone else called "Zenga" at the camp?

10 A. No, I think not.

11 Q. Did you hear anything else besides "Osman" for the real

12 name of Zenga?

13 A. I knew his surname as well, but I can't recall it just

14 now.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I later learned in Musala.

17 Q. I'm sorry. What did you learn in Musala, sir?

18 A. The name and surname, Osman Landzo, because after a year

19 and a half or two, I think, he was imprisoned as a

20 prisoner in the same prison that I was in in Musala.

21 Q. Sir, you have also mentioned a Mr Delic. Do you know

22 Mr Delic's full name and did you know him from before?

23 A. Hazim Delic, I knew him from before, not in person, but

24 there were many of my friends and relatives who worked

25 with him. I knew him from before the war, not in

Page 4913

1 person, but by sight.

2 Q. What was his role in the camp, if you know?

3 A. During my transfer from Number 9 to the hangar Delic had

4 some problems with his leg. I don't know what kind of

5 problems. I know that he limped, and he sat with the

6 prisoners, the people he knew. I know that he even

7 gave them cigarettes. However, afterwards I think that

8 his role was one of command, of somebody that the guards

9 and prisoners feared, somebody who gives the orders.

10 Q. How frequently would you see Zenga in the camp?

11 A. Zenga, I would see him daily, every day during my stay

12 in Celebici.

13 Q. How about Mr Delic?

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we can stop here.

15 MS McHENRY: Okay.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: And come back at 2.30.

17 MS McHENRY: Thank you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We will go for lunch and return at

19 2.30.

20 (1.00 pm)

21 (Luncheon Adjournment)





Page 4914

1 (2.30 pm)

2 (Witness re-enters court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still

4 on his oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are

6 still testifying under oath.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mrs McHenry, you can continue. You

8 can carry on with the witness.

9 MS McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, right before the lunch break

10 I was asking you how frequently you would see Mr Hazim

11 Delic in the camp.

12 A. Almost every day. At first not so often, but the last

13 two months, almost every day.

14 JUDGE JAN: He says "every day almost".

15 MS McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours. I was just about to

16 say there was a problem with the interpretation.

17 Sorry. Sir, you also mentioned before Mr Pavo. Can

18 you tell us who you mean by Mr Pavo and what his role

19 was in the camp?

20 A. Pavo Mucic I mean. I knew him as I did Mr Delic, by

21 sight, not personally, but I knew a little more about

22 him, because my brother worked with him. He knew him

23 and was a friend of his. I knew Pavo Mucic by sight

24 and I saw him in the camp. The first time when he was

25 touring the hangar accompanied by Mr Delic and a couple

Page 4915

1 of other guards. So the first time was about 20 or 25

2 days after my capture.

3 Q. What did you understand his role in the camp to be?

4 A. My personal opinion is that he was somebody who was in

5 charge, who was in command, somebody the guards feared,

6 who gave orders to the guards, somebody the guards were

7 responsible to.

8 Q. Can you tell us specifically what you saw or what you

9 were told when you were there about Mr Mucic's role, for

10 instance, before he came into the hangar, would the

11 prisoners be told anything?

12 A. Yes. On one occasion, on one visit by Mr Mucic to the

13 hangar the guards ordered that we put the hangar in

14 order, that we take our positions, because sometimes

15 people would relax a little, they would stretch their

16 legs out a little. We had to take up our positions

17 properly, because Pavo was coming. Those were the

18 comments of the guards and those were the orders they

19 received.

20 Q. During the times that Mr -- did you ever see Mr Mucic

21 and his interaction with the guards when he came into

22 the hangar? Would he say anything to the guards?

23 A. No. I only saw Pavo inside in the hangar. When he

24 would enter the hangar he was accompanied by Mr Delic

25 and another one or two guards. He would sort of review

Page 4916

1 the prisoners. He would make a circle round the

2 hangar. The people he knew he would talk to. Those

3 he didn't he just passed. He exchanged a few words

4 with my brother. As for me, he just looked at me and

5 passed by and didn't say anything. So that I'm sure

6 that Pavo was somebody who was in charge.

7 Q. During the times when he would come into the hangar did

8 you ever see Mr Mucic say anything to the guards, direct

9 them in any way? Let me ask you more specifically:

10 where would the other guards be when Mr Mucic was in the

11 hangar and how would they know to be in a particular

12 place?

13 A. One or two were escorting Mr Mucic and one of them would

14 stand at the door with a weapon as a kind of

15 precautionary measure. There were those that were

16 inside and there was one standing guard at the door.

17 Q. Did you ever see Mr Mucic say anything or direct any of

18 the guards about where a guard should or should not be?

19 A. No, I didn't see it, see that. This wasn't happening

20 inside; probably outside.

21 Q. Okay. How frequently did you see Mr Mucic in the camp?

22 A. During my stay in Celebici not many times. Maybe four

23 or five times, not more.

24 Q. Did you ever see any interaction between Mr Mucic and

25 Mr Delic?

Page 4917

1 A. Not a conversation but I could give an example in the

2 case of one prisoner. Pavo approached the prisoner,

3 accompanied by Delic. The prisoner had to get up.

4 They were talking. Pavo wanted the prisoner to be --

5 no, Delic wanted the prisoner to be released. Pavo was

6 against it. He was saying that he was a Cetnik.

7 Delic seemed to be for his release and Pavo was against

8 his release. So there was obviously disagreement

9 between the two of them.

10 Q. Was that prisoner released or not, if you know?

11 A. At that time no, he wasn't.

12 Q. Sir, in addition to the mistreatment that you yourself

13 suffered, did you ever observe any mistreatment that

14 other prisoners suffered?

15 A. Yes, many prisoners.

16 Q. Do you know whether or not while you were at the camp

17 any prisoners died?

18 A. Died? Yes.

19 Q. Could you please tell the court what you yourself

20 observed concerning the mistreatment of any prisoners

21 that may have died while in the camp?

22 A. You are thinking of the camp itself, not upon them being

23 brought in? In the camp itself at the very beginning

24 when people were unloaded from the trucks and put into

25 Number 9, all the prisoners were bitten with sticks,

Page 4918

1 rifle butts, boots, whatever they could lay hands on, so

2 that each and every one of them were beaten up really.

3 During my stay in Number 9 many of them were beaten

4 again, not all of them --

5 MR OLUJIC (in interpretation): Objection, your Honour.

6 The witness was asked whether he saw anyone being

7 killed. He is not responsive to the questions. He is

8 talking about mistreatment.

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: He can carry on. I think I overrule

10 you.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Your objection is overruled. It was

13 mistreatment that he was asked about and that is what he

14 was saying. Go on.

15 A. Yes. As far as I understood the question, it was

16 mistreatment and beatings. So the prisoners were

17 beaten in Number 9 itself. When I was transferred to

18 the hangar, I came across many people who had been

19 beaten up, who were immobile, and during my stay in the

20 hangar for about three months I personally experienced

21 and eyewitnessed the beating of many people. I don't

22 know the number. 20 or 30 people. I saw people die

23 from this beating. A number of them died from the

24 consequences of the beatings. All this I witnessed

25 myself.

Page 4919

1 Q. Sir, could you please tell us about any incidents where

2 you yourself observed mistreatment which resulted in

3 someone's death?

4 A. Yes. I saw the mistreatment of Bosko Samoukovic, who

5 succumbed to the consequences of the beatings. I saw

6 the mistreatment of Zeljko Cecez, who also died from the

7 beatings. I saw the beating of Mr Pero Mrkajic, who

8 also died from the consequences. I saw the dead body

9 of Avramovic. I don't know when he died. I didn't

10 see him beaten up but I saw his dead body. I saw the

11 bodies of Miso Kuljanin and Zeljko Klimenta, known as

12 Keljo, and many, many other people who did not die from

13 the consequences of beatings, but who were in a terrible

14 state.

15 Q. Let us go through this, sir. I believe the first name you

16 mentioned was Mr Bosko Samoukovic. Could you please

17 tell us what you observed concerning what happened to

18 Mr Samoukovic?

19 A. Mr Samoukovic was called out. Why I don't know. He

20 was an elderly man. He was in his 50s or 60s. I'm

21 not sure. He was called out, I don't know for what

22 reason, as I said. He was beaten up by Zenga at the

23 entrance to the hangar, just in front of the door, with

24 a wooden plank, a thick one, which was used to prop up

25 the hangar door. He was beaten up on his back,

Page 4920

1 kidneys, head. They didn't make any point about where

2 they would hit him. He was dragged to his place

3 afterwards and he died from the consequences of these

4 beatings. Two sons of his were there, who watched all

5 this.

6 Q. Do you know whether or not -- do you remember whether or

7 not Mr Samoukovic died in the hangar or outside the

8 hangar?

9 A. I think he died outside. Actually he was in the hangar

10 in an unconscious condition. He wasn't dead but he was

11 near the end. I'm not sure. I couldn't check.

12 I think he was carried out unconscious, half dead.

13 Maybe he did, but I can't tell for sure.

14 Q. Sir, what, if anything, did you observe about Pero

15 Mrkajic?

16 A. Yes. Pero was imprisoned in the hangar before me while

17 I was still in Number 9. When I was transferred to the

18 hangar, I found Pero with visible wounds, injuries on

19 his head, behind his ear, all over his body. He looked

20 terrible. He was bleeding from his mouth. He

21 couldn't move. He couldn't walk. He couldn't eat.

22 He didn't die in the hangar itself. I think he was

23 transferred perhaps too late to the infirmary, and we

24 later learned that he died.

25 Q. What, if anything, did you observe concerning Mr Zeljko

Page 4921

1 Cecez?

2 A. Zeljko Cecez, yes, he died in the hangar. He was taken

3 out. One could have heard his cries, his moans, his

4 pleas that they stop. It was terrible to listen. He

5 was letting out animal-like cries. Then he was thrown

6 in like a sandbag. He was dragged to his place. He

7 begged us to help him. Nobody dared. He died in

8 terrible pain. Many people saw this, all the people

9 who were there. They could have seen the terrible pain

10 he died in. He died in the hangar and he was taken out

11 as dead. The guards would usually close the door, if

12 we tried to walk around or move around a little, to

13 exchange a couple of words. So it was quite obvious

14 that he was dead when he was taken out.

15 Q. When you say it was quite obvious that he was -- I'm not

16 sure that I understand you. How is it that you can say

17 that it was quite obvious that he was dead? I'm not

18 sure I understood your explanation. If you could just

19 say it again maybe in different words.

20 A. I'm not a doctor to be able to ascertain somebody's

21 death, but I know what a dead body is, no signs of life,

22 no sound coming from him, nothing. I can't establish

23 as a doctor somebody's death, but I know what a dead

24 body is. After all his suffering, his moans and cries,

25 they all came to a stop and he went cold.

Page 4922

1 Q. Thank you, sir. Mico Kuljanin can you please tell us

2 what, if anything, you observed concerning him?

3 A. Mico was taken out, outside. He was beaten up before,

4 but not that time. He was taken out. We heard a

5 shot. People didn't dare go out for a long time.

6 Some people had to go out. I was one of them that had

7 to go to the toilet and we saw a body lying there, a

8 motionless body, the body of Mico Kuljanin, so outside,

9 not in the hangar.

10 Q. Sir, Zeljko Klimenta, can you please tell us what you

11 observed concerning him?

12 A. Zeljko Klimenta was one of the prisoners that the guards

13 knew. He may have had friends among them,

14 acquaintances certainly. I don't know if they were

15 friends. Zeljko Klimenta was someone who could

16 smoke. I think it was Pavo himself who brought him

17 some cigarettes, or someone else -- I don't know who --

18 so he could smoke. He could go out. He communicated

19 with the guards. He talked to them. The day he was

20 killed Garo was outside with him. He was a man who was

21 distributing food. When Garo came in he just said

22 "they've killed Zeljko". We just fell silent and

23 feared who would be the next. The body of Klimenta we

24 could see when we went out to the toilet.

25 Q. Sir, when you say -- who was it who came in and said:

Page 4923

1 "They've just killed Zeljko"? Could you please just

2 give us that name again?

3 A. I can't remember the name. I know he was called Garo

4 and he distributed food to the prisoners. The

5 prisoners would bring the food in front of the hangar

6 and Garo would distribute the food in the hangar. He

7 was one of the people who contacted with the guards who

8 could go out. So he probably saw, witnessed the

9 killing himself.

10 Q. I just want to clarify. It was Garo who came into the

11 hangar and said: "They have just killed Zeljko"; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. How long after this was it that you saw

15 Mr Klimenta's body outside? How long after someone came

16 in and said they had killed Zeljko approximately? The

17 same day or ...

18 A. Yes, the same day, maybe two or three hours later.

19 I can't remember. Not immediately, because we didn't

20 dare go out. Two or three hours, maybe four hours

21 later.

22 Q. Sir, do you know who Mr Vaso Dordic is?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you tell us what, if anything, you observed

25 concerning the treatment of Mr Vaso Dordic?

Page 4924

1 A. Yes. As we were sort of senior prisoners, maybe he came

2 a month after us, anyway after us, after some time, he

3 was brought in and I think that at that time he was the

4 one who was beaten most, mistreated most, insulted.

5 Everybody somehow focused on him, because apparently he

6 was subsequently arrested. He was a Cetnik. He was

7 in hiding. So he suffered terrible mistreatment and

8 insults. He even had to do something with his

9 brother. He had to do certain things upon orders of

10 certain gentlemen, certain things that I can't even put

11 in words.

12 Q. Sir, as much as you can, I would ask that you please

13 tell us what exactly you saw, what this person had to do

14 upon the orders of certain gentlemen. Can you please

15 explain, although I know it is uncomfortable, who these

16 gentlemen were and what you saw happen?

17 A. Beating, non-stop beating. He had to do push-ups,

18 beaten up as he was, and while he was doing it, he would

19 usually get a kick in the kidney area. Together with

20 his own brother he had -- I don't know if I -- he had

21 to have oral intercourse on orders of the guards and

22 I cannot remember which guard it was who ordered that,

23 but the fact was that this transpired and there are

24 witnesses. Not everybody in the hangar, but those from

25 whose vantage points it was possible to see, those can

Page 4925

1 testify to this.

2 Q. Okay. Sir, do you know who Mr Zejnil Delalic is?

3 A. Zejnil Delalic I knew also by sight. I sat in his

4 cafe. We knew before the conflict that this gentleman

5 was arming the paramilitary units of the Muslims.

6 Q. Sir, can I just ask: did you ever see Mr Delalic in the

7 camp?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you just tell me when, on how many occasions, where

10 he was when you saw him?

11 A. I only saw him once. We had been taken to unload some

12 trucks inside the Celebici camp behind a hangar. There

13 were several of us. That is the last time I saw

14 Mr Delalic. He was escorted by two -- I think they

15 were bodyguards or something. They had brand new

16 camouflage uniforms. They had modern weapons and they

17 were well-groomed. We were lined up in front of the

18 hangar and I think he was about five to ten metres away

19 from me. He did not come over. He did not pay

20 attention to us. We just saw him from there.

21 Q. Sir, was there a time in the camp when the Red Cross

22 came?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. What was he unloading?

25 MS McHENRY: I am sorry. Pardon, your Honour.

Page 4926

1 JUDGE JAN: What was he unloading?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

3 MS McHENRY: Sir, if you remember, what were you unloading

4 from the trucks?

5 A. Weapons and ammunition.

6 Q. Sir, can you please tell the court what happened after

7 the Red Cross visit?

8 A. Yes. During the visit itself of the ICRC we were

9 registered. We received registration cards. They at

10 first tried to talk to us. However, the guards and the

11 personnel in the camp, they would not leave. They

12 would not leave us alone with them. So they were

13 present there. Then there was a lady who was a

14 representative of the Red Cross. She tried to

15 intervene and she insisted and only after she openly

16 requested them to leave, they left and we were free to

17 talk to them. We knew that maybe we would suffer

18 consequences later, but we had to tell what happened, so

19 we told them what happened. After they left the

20 hangar, we -- because there were three or four guards

21 per group, we all received a lot of beating and then

22 there was more mistreatment and insults. They would

23 say something like: "You'll never live to see another

24 Red Cross again", things like that.

25 Q. Can you tell us who it was who was present when you and

Page 4927

1 the other prisoners were beaten after the Red Cross

2 visit? Can you just explain exactly what happened?

3 A. Delic was present. He stood at the door. There was a

4 group of three guys, three guards. They entered and

5 they started to the right and the other three started to

6 the left, and prisoners were sitting down as they were

7 usually sitting. They had to get up, turn around, face

8 the wall, turn their backs to the guards, and then we

9 would get kicks and blows with different instruments to

10 the backs, the kidney area. People cried and moaned.

11 I can give you some details. In the row where I was

12 there was a certain Osman Dedic who came up our way and

13 he told us: "Scream" he said and he would simulate

14 blows. He would put the boot on the back and people

15 would scream as if they were receiving blows but

16 Mr Delic saw this and then he made this row receive

17 beatings again, this part of the row. Throughout the

18 time Delic stood at the entrance of the hangar and

19 observed as prisoners were being beaten.

20 Q. How long after the Red Cross visit did you stay in

21 Celebici?

22 A. Not long, maybe one month.

23 Q. Where did you go when you left Celebici?

24 A. I was transferred to the Musala camp.

25 Q. Could you please tell us the circumstances of your

Page 4928

1 transfer?

2 A. I'm not certain whether this was luck or not. My

3 brother knew certain gentlemen because they worked

4 together in the electrical utility company, and my

5 brother was promised that he would be transferred. He

6 made a request on my behalf, whether I could be moved

7 with him. So that could be a reason or maybe just

8 luck. I don't know, one or the other.

9 Q. Do you know who it was who promised your brother that he

10 would be transferred?

11 A. I think it was Mitke. I am not sure about his last

12 name. I think it was Mitke and I think he was some

13 chief within the police. So the first name would be

14 Mitke. I don't know about the last name.

15 Q. How long did you stay in Musala?

16 A. More than two years. Two years and two months,

17 something like that. I don't know exactly, but over

18 two years certainly.

19 Q. Were criminal charges -- were you ever told that you

20 were being prosecuted and criminal charges were being

21 brought against you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Excuse me for one second, your Honours, please. No

24 further questions for this witness, your Honour.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

Page 4929

1 MR O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. We'll proceed in this

2 order. First, counsel for Mr Delalic; second, counsel

3 for Mr Mucic; third, counsel for Mr Delic; and, fourth,

4 counsel for Mr Landzo.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

6 Cross-examination by Ms Residovic

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

8 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, can

9 I proceed?

10 Good afternoon, Mr M.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. As you may know, I'm Edina Residovic and I am defence

13 counsel for Mr Delalic. Perhaps it is usual for the

14 rest of us, but since you and I are meeting for the

15 first time, I would like to ask of you what the Trial

16 Chamber usually asks me, so that we would talk slowly,

17 that you should wait for the question to be interpreted

18 and then you answer and I will wait for the

19 interpretation. It is the only way that we can be

20 followed by everybody in the courtroom, otherwise you

21 and I would not need these pauses, because we understand

22 each other. So thank you.

23 Mr M, your family is rather large in Bradina; is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4930

1 Q. And you are related one way or the other with the

2 Mrkajic family; is that correct?

3 A. We are not closely related.

4 Q. Through your mother?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You stated that you worked for the Sarajevo railroad

7 company and probably on that duty you must have often

8 travelled between Sarajevo and Konjic and Konjic-Mostar?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is it true that some time in the middle of or more

11 precisely around 20th April the traffic on this stretch

12 stopped?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. This railroad traffic stopped because of certain events

15 that went on in Sarajevo and also because of some

16 checkpoints that were erected in Bradina?

17 A. No, no, that was not the reason.

18 Q. However, the railroad traffic had stopped?

19 A. Yes, on the stretch between Jablanica and Mostar. That

20 is where it was first interrupted and much later it was

21 towards Bradina.

22 Q. In this -- on this stretch certain combat operations

23 between the JNA and the TO and the HVO had already

24 started in that area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4931

1 Q. Mr M, at the same time, as far as you recall, also the

2 road traffic on the highway which was called M17 was

3 also interrupted between Mostar and Sarajevo?

4 A. No, not at the same time.

5 Q. Can you tell us when?

6 A. Much later, and there were checkpoints.

7 Q. Excuse me. Can you tell me when this was? Around

8 April 20th?

9 A. At least ten days before the highway traffic was

10 interrupted the railroad traffic was interrupted.

11 Q. Very well. So the legal authorities set up control

12 points of the reserve police on that stretch?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the centre of Bradina and on the other side of the

15 tunnel there were also checkpoints set up, the ones that

16 you have mentioned?

17 A. Yes. Those were the checkpoints of the legal

18 authorities before the conflict itself. That was the

19 regular police forces, which were reinforced by the

20 reserve police force.

21 Q. You are trying to say that the police station of the MUP

22 in Konjic was assigning the policemen who were supposed

23 to man this checkpoint?

24 A. Yes, that was just before the conflict broke out.

25 Q. You mean before 6th April?

Page 4932

1 A. Something like that.

2 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr M, as a member of the SDS

3 party and as a treasurer in the local board in Bradina,

4 you had a duty to gather money for the defence of

5 Bradina?

6 A. No. That's not correct.

7 Q. In fact, you received weapons from the reserve forces of

8 the army?

9 A. No. I personally got my weapons from the reserve police

10 of the Konjic MUP.

11 Q. You received this in the period before April 6th, when

12 you were still part of the reserve units of the legal

13 authorities of the Konjic government?

14 A. No. I received these weapons after I pulled out of the

15 reserve of the police and after the Muslim and Croat

16 members of the reserve forces did pull out, and then we

17 were invited by the Commander of the reserve forces to

18 fill in those positions.

19 Q. Would you tell us what your commander's name was?

20 A. Mr Spasoje Mrkajic.

21 Q. Mr M, so you, Mr M, received your personal weapons from

22 Spasoje Mrkajic?

23 A. From the reserve police forces.

24 Q. Mr M, is it true that you were in Mr Zaro Mrkajic's cafe

25 at the time when 50 automatic rifles were brought there?

Page 4933

1 A. No.

2 Q. Mr M, could you please tell me whether it is true that

3 after 6th April, that is after the proclamation of

4 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, within the SDS an

5 extreme wing was formed, to which you yourself did not

6 belong?

7 A. An extreme wing? You must explain that to me.

8 Q. Which insisted on the accelerated arming of the

9 population and on the forming of certain authorities in

10 Bradina?

11 A. You can name it whatever you would like, extreme or

12 non-extreme. These people lived there and they wanted

13 to protect their own homes and their wives and children

14 and they said that if nothing came out of the

15 negotiations, they wanted to make sure that they would

16 protect their mothers and families. So this was not

17 the extreme wing. They just wanted to make sure that

18 they could protect their homes.

19 Q. Is it true, Mr M, that in this council Damjan Dordic,

20 Dragan Vujicic, Desimir Mrkajic were all elected?

21 A. I can't know who was elected in it. I don't know how

22 extreme this wing was, but I know that there was a legal

23 body and we looked for ways and we thought we found a

24 way that we would get in touch with neighbours from

25 Zukici, Sunmir and other villages around there, and we

Page 4934

1 managed to talk to them several times.

2 Q. Mr M, wouldn't you say that you were fairly politically

3 active at that time and as far as I know the facts, you

4 took part in negotiations that you are referring to

5 three times?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr M, do you know that the legal authorities in Konjic

8 asked of you and in fact made an ultimatum that you

9 surrender arms and remove the checkpoints that were in

10 Bradina?

11 A. The gentleman who actually spoke to the Konjic

12 authorities, Mr Vaso Mrkajic, knew this and he said --

13 not that they decided. They said that it was an

14 ultimatum, that should we not surrender arms that

15 Bradina will be levelled to the ground. That's exactly

16 how he put it. So people were scared.

17 Q. Very well. Mr M, up until 25th May and because of the

18 reasons that you mentioned, no weapons were surrendered

19 and no checkpoints were dismantled?

20 A. Weapons were not surrendered and the checkpoints were

21 not dismantled because there was checkpoints in Zukici

22 below Bradina and because the tunnel had been blown up

23 by the paramilitary formations, not by the legal

24 authorities in Konjic, and on the other side of Bradina,

25 towards Tarcin, the tunnel was also caved in and so

Page 4935

1 there was no communication on the other side. So no

2 legal negotiations were possible. So it was all like

3 that.

4 Q. Very well, Mr M. Did you know that at that time

5 members of the Serbian people were coming to Bradina

6 from other places?

7 A. Yes. They were coming to Bradina because they were

8 scared. They were expelled from other places and they

9 were fleeing to Bradina. That's from Brdjani and

10 elsewhere.

11 Q. In one of your statements before you said that there

12 were about 600 people in Bradina. Can you tell us

13 whether it is true that since other people arrived in

14 Bradina from surrounding settlements during these combat

15 operations there were about 1500 people in Bradina?

16 A. I cannot tell you the exact number. There were a lot

17 of people from other villages, a lot of women and

18 children and the elderly, because people were fleeing

19 their own homes. There were many more than the locals.

20 Q. You spoke in some detail about how you defended the

21 village during those combat operations. Is it true

22 what you stated before, that about 300 people attempted

23 to defend Bradina during those days?

24 A. Approximately, yes. However, not all of them were

25 armed.

Page 4936

1 Q. Is it also true, Mr M, that the mortar in Bradina was

2 located above the butcher's shop of Mica (sic) Delic and

3 two additional mortars were brought in on the eve of the

4 attack on Bradina?

5 A. I don't know anything about mortars. I don't know that

6 they even existed. I doubt that they even existed.

7 Q. During these combat operations in Bradina you said that

8 you were holding your positions. Was that above the

9 railroad station?

10 A. No. No. That was across from the railroad station at

11 the place called Jelovac.

12 Q. Mr M, we already clarified that this -- the events that

13 I'm referring to happened before 6th April. Now

14 following April 6th do you know that in the middle of

15 April -- you may not know the exact date but this was

16 probably -- this was on 17th April that the Assembly in

17 Konjic proclaimed general mobilisation?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But the truth is that you -- at that time you did not

20 report as an able -- militarily able person either in

21 the municipality or in the police station?

22 A. I did not dare come to Konjic at that time.

23 Q. As you stated in direct examination and in answer to the

24 Prosecutor's questions, you virtually created Serbian

25 police?

Page 4937

1 A. No. This was a continuity of the police force that had

2 already existed in Bradina before that.

3 Q. Mr M, the Vice President of the Assembly in the Konjic

4 municipality was Duro Kuljanin who was a Serb?

5 A. I think so, yes.

6 Q. You surely know that he left his post and he went to the

7 Borci Lake?

8 A. What I know is that he had been beaten up and then he

9 fled to Borci.

10 Q. And Borci is to the east of Konjic town on Mount Prenj?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In that period Borci were controlled by the JNA and the

13 Serbian forces?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Mr M, I only have a few very quick questions based on --

16 relating to your political activities. Do you know

17 that in early -- in the first part of April the SDS in

18 Konjic adopted a decision that they would not

19 participate in the defence of Konjic?

20 A. No. In the defence of Konjic that's not clear at all.

21 Q. Do you know that the SDS at that time adopted a decision

22 on the establishment of the Serbian municipality of

23 Konjic which included all settlements outside of the

24 central municipal area?

25 A. No.

Page 4938

1 Q. With respect to your stay in Celebici, Mr M, would you

2 please look at the model that is in front of you?

3 I would like, with the assistance of the usher, if you

4 could show us Hangar Number 9 where you were located?

5 MS McHENRY: Before the witness moves, let me just point

6 out that the witness is protected and I'm not sure how

7 he can point to it without leaning over and being

8 seen. So I have no objection if we want to go into

9 private session or maybe if Ms Residovic wants to show

10 him something and ask if that's correct. I wouldn't

11 object to that either. I just note that this is a

12 protected witness.

13 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): May I?

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can come forward.

15 A. Yes, I do not wish to show myself.

16 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can come forward so that you can

17 see what you are showing.

18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr M, is this the

19 Celebici camp?

20 A. I think it is. I think it is.

21 Q. Can you tell me am I showing correctly if I say that

22 this is Hangar 6?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Can you show us?

25 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, I would just ask -- I know there

Page 4939

1 are people in the front row.

2 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I think it can't be

3 seen?

4 A. I'm sorry. If they can see me, I'd rather not.

5 JUDGE JAN: You can put the shutters down and he can come

6 up.

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, if that is a problem.

8 MR MORAN: Your Honour, a modest suggestion. Perchance --

9 perhaps the TV people could focus on the model, and each

10 one of the buildings has a letter number on top of it.

11 JUDGE JAN: The people sitting in the public gallery, he

12 doesn't want to see them.

13 MR MORAN: What I was thinking, your Honour, was if the TV

14 people focused on the model, he could sit down and look

15 at the TV monitor, and since each building has a letter

16 on it, he could identify it that way, off the television

17 screen.

18 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, I can

19 adjust my questions so that the witness, without

20 exposing himself to any danger can answer them.

21 So my question is: the building I showed, you

22 say, is not Hangar 6?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Please will you tell me do you know that in only one of

25 these hangars, with the exception of Tunnel Number 9,

Page 4940

1 that prisoners were accommodated in Celebici, in only

2 one of these hangars?

3 A. As far as I know only in one except for Tunnel Number 9

4 and the infirmary, yes.

5 Q. Do you know that the area of the Celebici barracks is

6 enormous, as can be seen from the model, several

7 hectares, several hectares?

8 A. Da (not translated).

9 MS McHENRY: I didn't get the translation of the prior

10 question.

11 MS RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Let me repeat my

12 question. The area of the Celebici barracks, is it

13 very large, covering several hectares?

14 A. It depends what you imply when you say "large".

15 Several hectares, yes.

16 Q. Can you tell me: do you know that in a part of this

17 area of the Celebici Barracks there were warehouses of

18 the Territorial Defence for military supplies?

19 A. I don't know but I do know that I personally unloaded

20 arms, weapons, ammunition.

21 Q. You don't have to lean over.

22 A. (Indicating) In one of these two hangars I personally

23 unloaded weapons and ammunition together with other

24 prisoners. I was taken from Number 6 and led over

25 there.

Page 4941

1 Q. Let me show once again. So here, this is where you

2 unloaded weapons (indicating) once?

3 A. Not once; several times.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr M, when you were in Hangar Number 6, all

5 of you, including yourself, you were wearing your own

6 clothes, those that you had when you were captured?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In the course of your stay you were not given any

9 special clothing; isn't that so?

10 A. No. No, we were not.

11 Q. Thank you. You told us that you were interrogated by a

12 commission in Celebici. When you were transferred to

13 Musala, were you interrogated again?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. On that occasion you were interrogated by a commission

16 including Mrs Jasna Dzumhur?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were treated well during the interrogation?

19 A. Not very correct. There were a lot of provocative

20 questions, and when I was taken from Musala to the

21 police building I was provoked by the guards and the

22 escort.

23 Q. Your statement was recorded; isn't that so?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Did you sign on that occasion what you had said?

Page 4942

1 A. I did sign something that I didn't read. I could not

2 read it.

3 Q. Mr M, do you know that later criminal charges were

4 brought against you for the possession of weapons

5 without licence?

6 A. I do not know.

7 Q. Do you know that you were pardoned and the proceedings

8 suspended in order for the exchange to take place?

9 A. No.

10 Q. I have no further questions. Thank you, sir.

11 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other

12 cross-examination?

13 Cross-examination by Mr Olujic

14 MR OLUJIC (in interpretation): May I, your Honours?

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

16 MR OLUJIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your Honours.

17 Good afternoon, Mr M. My name is Zeljko Olujic. I am

18 defence counsel for Mr Zdravko Mucic. I hope you are

19 still capable of answering my questions, because you

20 have been talking all day.

21 A. I would like a break, but I can manage.

22 Q. I won't question you long. I will be relatively

23 brief. Mr M, you said that throughout your stay in

24 Celebici you saw Mr Zdravko Mucic only four or five

25 times; is that correct?

Page 4943

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The four or five times that you saw him during a long

3 period of your stay there, was anybody ever mistreated

4 in his presence?

5 A. In his presence? I would have to remember.

6 Q. As far as you can remember?

7 A. Mistreated, no, but he personally insulted me.

8 Q. Thank you for your answer. You mentioned, Mr M, that a

9 certain Mitke -- I think that's the name you used --

10 helped you to get out of Celebici and to go to Musala;

11 is that so? Did I understand you well?

12 A. I'm not sure, but I know that my brother tried through

13 Mitke. So I said it may have been through Mitke or

14 maybe it was just good luck. My brother did try to

15 intervene with Mitke to have me transferred, but nobody

16 ever told me -- Mitke never told me: "I helped to have

17 you transferred". So it may have been him or some luck.

18 Q. And who is Mitke?

19 A. He worked with my brother in the electrical industry

20 plant. He was head of police or something like that.

21 Q. Head of police where?

22 A. In Konjic, yes.

23 Q. And where was he while you were in Celebici?

24 A. He came to Celebici to visit people he knew. On one

25 occasion he brought a sandwich for my brother.

Page 4944

1 Q. So he entered the camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did any other people come to the camp apart from him?

4 A. The camp? The hangar? I don't know who came to the

5 camp but to the hangar oh, yes, yes, there were

6 people. Some young men from Mostar, some kind of

7 Ustashas. I forgot to mention this. They didn't beat

8 all of us, but some of us, and on one of their beatings

9 my ulcer perforated. I had to go to the infirmary.

10 So we were beaten by many foreign people, so to speak,

11 people outside the camp and not just the guards.

12 Q. Did you do your military service in the JNA?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you acquire a rank?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you go to the school of reserve non-commissioned

17 officers as it was called then?

18 A. No.

19 Q. In your statement you said that you had a rifle. Do

20 you know how to put a rifle together?

21 A. I'm not sure I could do it now.

22 Q. But you served in the army?

23 A. I did know then. I don't know whether I could now.

24 Q. Do you know how to use a rifle to fire?

25 A. I don't. I've forgotten how to do that.

Page 4945

1 Q. Mr M, I have completed my set of questions. Thank

2 you.


4 Cross-examination by Mr Moran

5 MR MORAN: Your Honour, it will take a second for us to get

6 situated here. May it please the court?


8 MR MORAN: Good afternoon, sir.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Sir, my name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic

11 here and I'm going to ask you some questions and I don't

12 think it will take all that long, but I think we can

13 shorten this a little bit if you'll do a couple of

14 things for me. First, if you'll listen to the question

15 and just answer the question. Some of them may just

16 require a "yes" or "no". Could you do that for me, just

17 answer exactly the question that I ask you?

18 A. Before you start asking your questions, I would beg the

19 court's indulgence for a short break, if that is

20 possible.

21 MR MORAN: Your Honour, if you give him the break, I think

22 I may be able to cut down the extent of my cross, if

23 I have a chance to go over it and we may save us all a

24 little bit of time and I have no objection to him having

25 a break.

Page 4946

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We can give him a break and return

2 about 4.15.

3 MR MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honours, and thank you

4 on behalf of the witness also.

5 (3.45 pm)

6 (Short break)

7 (4.20 pm)

8 MR MORAN: May it please the court?

9 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr Moran, you can go on.

10 MR MORAN: Mr M, a couple of other things we talked about

11 before the break and I just want to go over these.

12 Sometimes I ask questions that are a little convoluted

13 and a little hard to understand and sometimes they are

14 confusing. If I ask you one of those questions, will

15 you stop me, ask me to repeat it, rephrase it and do

16 whatever I have to do so that you understand what I'm

17 asking? I just notice that you nodded. The last thing

18 I wanted to talk about was the nodding. There's two

19 ladies in this courtroom, one sitting right up here and

20 one over there who are what are called Court

21 Reporters. Their job is to write down everything we

22 say because everything we say has to be in the record.

23 They couldn't write down a nod. So if you could answer

24 the question, if it's a "yes" or a "no" instead of

25 nodding yes or no, if you could say "yes" or "no", they

Page 4947

1 can get it down into the record. Would you think about

2 doing that? I know it's sometimes a little hard?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Now what I'm going to do so

5 there's not going to be any surprises for you, I am

6 going to go over your testimony and ask you a few

7 questions maybe to clarify some of the things you

8 already said. Basically I'm going to go in the same

9 order that the Prosecutor went in her direct

10 examination. There may be a few things where I'll jump

11 around but I'll try to remember to tell you that before

12 I do it so you're not going to be surprised; okay?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Let me just get a couple of quick preliminary

15 things out of the way. What kind of automatic rifle

16 did you have, sir; do you recall?

17 A. An automatic weapon made in Kragujevac.

18 Q. Sir, if I show you some pictures can you pick out the

19 one that looks like the weapon you had?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. Sir, if you just flip through those and see if you

22 recognise one that's similar to the one that you had.

23 A. I think this one looks most like the one I had.

24 Q. Now there are some more pictures that the usher has.

25 If you will set that one aside and flip through those

Page 4948

1 and see if you see one that looks a little bit more like

2 it.

3 A. I think this is the one.

4 Q. Okay. On the back, sir, there's some numbers. If

5 you'll flip it over, it will be like "D/4/something"

6 with a letter. Could you read those out?

7 A. It's in English.

8 Q. Okay. Maybe the usher can --

9 A. I don't speak English.

10 Q. I understand. I thought that you might be able to just

11 read the letters.

12 THE USHER: D15/1.

13 MR MORAN: Could you put it on the ELMO, please, so that

14 the members of the court could see it? The other side,

15 the photo. Again that silver thing down at the bottom,

16 did you have one of those? It looks like a bomb. You

17 didn't have that, did you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Just the rifle?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Your Honour, Judge Odio Benito, I think this is the same

22 one we talked about in the past?

23 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: I recognise it.

24 MR MORAN: Let us talk a little bit about after you

25 surrendered. By the way, you did surrender the weapon

Page 4949

1 that looked like that one to the Muslim authorities when

2 you were arrested?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And did you have any ammunition for it?

5 A. Yes, but only in the magazine. I don't know how many.

6 Q. Okay. So you just had one magazine? Is that all you

7 had?

8 A. Yes, in the rifle and I don't know how many more

9 bullets.

10 Q. Okay. Did you fire any of those bullets during the

11 defence of Bradina?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Did you shoot at someone or did you just shoot

14 up in the air?

15 A. No. I didn't see anyone. I didn't shoot at anyone.

16 Q. So did you just shoot the bullets in the air? Is that

17 what you did, sir?

18 A. In the air, just to let them know that we were there, so

19 that the people couldn't just come in.

20 Q. Okay. That's fine. Let me jump forward a little bit

21 to after you were arrested. Remember you said you were

22 brought to some vehicles before you were taken to

23 Celebici and you were forced on to the vehicles. About

24 20 of you were the first group and another 30 were later

25 brought in. Do you remember saying that on direct

Page 4950

1 examination?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did those people abuse you or mistreat you in any way

4 while you were being transported?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you elaborate on that? What kind of things did

7 they do to you, sir?

8 A. Yes. When surrendering, a man went ahead with a white

9 flag. Behind him there were about 20 of us. At a

10 distance of 20 or 30 metres we were noticed and

11 stopped. They said we could go forward, hand in our

12 weapons and nothing would happen to us. That is what

13 we did. We approached the butcher's shop, that is the

14 centre of the village. We were lined up there, facing

15 the butcher's shop. We had to take a step forward, to

16 place the ammunition and weapons down. Then we had to

17 go back to the line and we were placed on the white line

18 in the middle of the road. The truck was about 50

19 metres away near the butcher's shop. We had to follow

20 one another. They made a gauntlet on both sides and

21 they beat us with butts, with kicks, up to the point

22 when we reached the trucks, so that there was 50 metres

23 that we had to cover and all that time we were beaten.

24 Some of us fell down. We would lift each other. Upon

25 climbing on the truck we were beaten again. It was

Page 4951

1 very high. There were some elderly people. Some of

2 them were already weak from the beating. They would

3 fall. Again we would help each other. So upon

4 climbing on to the truck we were beaten again. So that

5 was during the loading on to the truck. Therefore, we

6 had to pass through this gauntlet. We were beaten all

7 the time up to the truck and while climbing on to the

8 truck.

9 Q. And, in fact, you were beaten during the ride to

10 Celebici, too, were you not?

11 A. Not during the ride. We didn't know where we were

12 going. We stopped two or three times. We were

13 threatened that that was the place where we would be

14 executed, dumped in the river, thrown over the slope.

15 While we were being transported from the loading to

16 Celebici we were not beaten, but we were threatened.

17 Whenever they stopped, they threatened that they would

18 kill us.

19 Q. In fact, sir, you testified on direct that when you were

20 put into Tunnel 9 your left arm was seriously injured

21 and it was bleeding. That injury was -- you got that

22 injury while you were being loaded on to the trucks;

23 isn't that right?

24 A. I think so, yes.

25 Q. Okay. The next question I want to ask you about is Ms

Page 4952

1 McMurrey (sic) asked you about people taking your gold

2 and watches and keys and things when you arrived at

3 Celebici. Do you remember testifying about that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you remained continuously in some kind of detention,

6 either at Celebici or at Musala, or some place until,

7 what, October of 1994?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. And in how many different places were you confined?

10 A. At first it was Tunnel Number 9. Then it was Hangar

11 Number 6. Then it was Musala and in Musala I was moved

12 five or six times to different cells.

13 Q. So you were in at least two completely separate

14 detention facilities?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was any of that property returned to you when you

17 were released, completely released from detention?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. And you don't know what happened to that property

20 between the time that you arrived at Celebici and the

21 time that you were released some, what, two years later,

22 do you?

23 A. You mean the property that I had on me or the property

24 that I had at home?

25 Q. The property you had on you. All you know is that it

Page 4953

1 was taken away when you got to Celebici and nobody ever

2 gave it back to you; right?

3 A. Yes, correct.

4 Q. Who is Rale, R-A-L-E?

5 A. Rale -- during the time when the prisoners were

6 unloaded, when they were arriving in Celebici, I heard

7 -- I personally heard Rale saying: "Don't beat them

8 because I'm here. I wanted to use this because I could

9 have been the third or the fifth coming up. I tried to

10 get off there at the time. I got off. I saw Rale to

11 the left of me as he was entering a car and then he

12 left. So I made a mistake because he left and then

13 I was there. Then I was beaten, but the first three

14 fared the best.

15 Q. Okay. Rale was -- do you have any idea what Rale's job

16 was at Celebici?

17 A. After the second group was brought in, and this is the

18 group where my father and brother were in, and after

19 they were brought in Rale arrived close to the dawn and

20 opened up Number 9, took several people out and somehow

21 ironically said: "So what did they do to you?" I could

22 hear the irony in his voice. So Rale was someone who

23 was supposedly surprised by what had happened.

24 Q. Did it appear to you that Rale had some position of

25 authority in the camp at that time?

Page 4954

1 A. I think it did, since he told the guards: "Don't beat

2 them, because I'm here" while they were beating those

3 three. I don't know if he had any authority over these

4 people or over the whole camp, but he seemed to have had

5 influence.

6 Q. He kind of looked like the Commander, didn't he?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now I'm going to jump ahead and ask you one real quick

9 question about Tunnel 9 and then I'm going to change the

10 subject again; okay? Maybe a couple of questions about

11 Tunnel 9. Inside Tunnel 9 was there any kind of a

12 bucket that was down, way down at the bottom, right by

13 those solid doors at the bottom, for people to use in

14 relieving themselves?

15 A. No. I was very close to that place where the people

16 relieved themselves and there was no container of any

17 kind there.

18 Q. So if some other people remembered one, they were

19 remembering it wrong or they were in Tunnel 9 at a

20 different time from you, something like that?

21 A. Yes. Maybe later, because I was there for just seven or

22 eight days and then I was transferred to Number 6. So

23 maybe later, but during my stay there there was nothing,

24 there was no container, so people relieved themselves

25 right there on the floor, on the concrete.

Page 4955

1 Q. That's fine. I'm going to jump ahead to another

2 subject, and that's this: you testified on direct that

3 at some point you were taken out and beaten, and the way

4 that this occurred was you had to kneel down, put your

5 hands behind your head and somebody gave you karate

6 kicks on the chest; right? Remember that?

7 A. I don't understand the question.

8 Q. I'm just asking you if you remember testifying on direct

9 examination that at some point you were taken out of

10 Hangar 6 and you were told to kneel down and put your

11 hands behind your head, and then someone started giving

12 you karate kicks on the chest? Do you remember that

13 incident?

14 A. Yes, absolutely. I also know who it was. It's not

15 just someone, because I know who it was. I know it in

16 detail.

17 Q. Well, I think you' already testified about that.

18 I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. One,

19 those karate kicks on the chest, were they right on your

20 chest area? Do you know what the bone called the

21 sternum is? It is the breast bone right down the middle

22 of your chest. Was that where those kicks were, along

23 in here?

24 A. Yes, exactly, from the throat down to the navel area.

25 So this was the chest area but I only remember when

Page 4956

1 I bent my head a little bit, I got a kick right here in

2 the chin, but no, those kicks were aimed right at the

3 chest.

4 Q. They were -- you were being kicked as hard as you could

5 be kicked, were you not?

6 A. Yes, and there was a soldier's boot.

7 Q. Yes. You were kicked, what, about 80 times; wasn't that

8 about right? Somebody counted them out, 80 times, 80

9 kicks?

10 A. Nobody counted. There was no count. I just know that

11 it was a large number. I think that I could have been

12 able to count up to half of those and then after that

13 I was unable to do that.

14 Q. So it was at least 40. You would agree with me you

15 were kicked at least 40 times?

16 A. Many more.

17 Q. But at least?

18 A. But many more, yes.

19 Q. And I think you said that there weren't any visible

20 signs of injury from that beating; is that right? Isn't

21 that what you said on direct?

22 A. Yes. No outside injuries.

23 Q. So I could look at you or the judges could have looked

24 at you, anybody could have looked at you, and they

25 wouldn't have seen any injuries; that is correct, isn't

Page 4957

1 it?

2 A. Except the red skin and some bruises, black and blue.

3 So the skin was more bluish, black-bluish, but no

4 lacerations, but nobody could see this because I was

5 wearing a shirt.

6 Q. Okay. Let me jump to another area. You served some

7 time in the JNA, about fifteen months?

8 A. Da.

9 Q. Now as part of your training in the DNA, did you receive

10 training in chemical warfare?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever use a gas mask while you were in the JNA?

13 A. Yes, very infrequently.

14 Q. It is the same in my army because they are just horrible

15 to have to put on and have to wear those things. I'm

16 going to ask you about the one that you said was put on

17 your face in Celebici. I'm going to ask you to

18 describe it a little bit. Let me see if I can -- as

19 I understand it, what it is, it's a thing that covers

20 your face and it's got a very tight seal along the side

21 of your face; is that right?

22 A. Yes, it's a military gas mask that covers the face, the

23 front part of the head and then is tightened up from

24 behind.

25 Q. It's like the one you used when you were in the JNA?

Page 4958

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And it's got filters that would clean the air so you

3 could breathe in; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then there's a valve that can close the air off; is

6 that true? It closes off the filters?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When the filters are closed -- when the filter is open,

9 you can breathe fairly normally; isn't that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And when the filters are closed you can't breathe any

12 air in at all; isn't that right -- not the filter -- the

13 valve is closed, you cannot breathe anything in at all;

14 right?

15 A. Yes, you cannot breathe at all. There's a little black

16 lid that is put on top of the filter so the air cannot

17 come in.

18 Q. How long were you in this filter -- in this mask with

19 the filters covered like that during this beating? Ten

20 minutes, fifteen minutes?

21 A. I don't know how long, but the entire time I was trying

22 to lift it. Sometimes I would be able to pull the mask

23 off a little bit so that I could get some air, not

24 directly, but through the side. So occasionally

25 I would get a little bit of air, but through the beating

Page 4959

1 the mask was on, and that could have been going on for

2 10, 15, 20 minutes. It appears as a very long period

3 of time when you're being beaten. To me it looked like

4 an eternity.

5 Q. A couple of other questions and then I'm going to,

6 I think, be done. Actually two other areas. Let me

7 get one real quick. You testified on cross-examination

8 I believe from Mr Olujic, but don't hold me to that,

9 that you got a perforated ulcer at some point in the

10 camp; isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you receive any medical treatment for that? Did you

13 have surgery or anything to stop the bleeding from the

14 perforated ulcer?

15 A. No. I could even explain, if I may. I would wish to

16 explain it.

17 Q. Sure.

18 A. My ulcer perforated. I think it was from the blows of

19 one of the people who were not the guards. Those were

20 the persons -- they called themselves Ustasha from

21 Listice. One strong, well-built guy hit me with his --

22 he held a pistol in his hand. So he hit me in the

23 stomach with that and I lost my breath and I felt --

24 I passed out and then I had bleeding and I asked for

25 help. My brother then asked for somebody, a guard, and

Page 4960

1 he said that he would ask Delic and Delic came. He

2 took me -- in fact, my brother and another prisoner took

3 me. They carried me over to the infirmary, and Delic

4 was in the car, so he was driving behind them. So they

5 had to hurry up, because he was coming up behind them in

6 the car. I was examined by Dr Relja Mrkajic. He only

7 asked Delic and these are the words -- he said: "Will he

8 survive?", Delic said. Dr Mrkajic said: "Yes". Then

9 after that I spent the night and then I was told to pick

10 up my stuff and go back. So those when I returned and

11 so this was the one time that I received some medicine

12 and that was the only time.

13 Q. Now I promised you there was only going to be one area,

14 but I am afraid you have opened up two more with that

15 answer, but we'll still keep it real short for you;

16 okay? You said that the people who beat you on that

17 occasion were not in the camp. They weren't guards

18 there. Does that mean that it was common or uncommon

19 or what for people that were not part of the staff of

20 Celebici to somehow gain entrance to the camp and abuse

21 the prisoners?

22 A. Yes, they could do that?

23 Q. How often did that occur, sir?

24 A. At first it was much more frequent than later on. In

25 other words, at first people who were not guards at all

Page 4961

1 would come in and then later they were prevented from

2 doing this, especially after the arrival of the Red

3 Cross.

4 Q. So basically as things got better organised in the camp,

5 they became better able to keep out these intruders who

6 were abusing the inmates, the detainees; is that right?

7 A. That is correct, but it is also true that the role of

8 these people was then taken over by the guards, the

9 people who were guarding us.

10 Q. You mentioned while you were in the infirmary Dr Mrkajic

11 gave you some medicine. Was it just a painkiller or

12 what?

13 A. I wouldn't know. I know that I felt relief and that

14 I had that twice and then after that again we had poor

15 food and there was no medicine. So I felt very bad.

16 In other words, I was not given proper treatment.

17 I was not allowed to stay there and I had to go back to

18 Number 6. In the infirmary the food was better and the

19 care was better.

20 Q. And it was Hazim Delic that arranged for you to go to

21 the infirmary on that occasion?

22 A. Yes. He also organised for me to go back.

23 Q. Okay. This I think will be the last area we're going

24 to talk about. I'm just tell you right up front why

25 I'm going to go into it. You answered somebody on --

Page 4962

1 I think it was Ms Residovic -- on cross and it's about

2 the reserve police; okay? Just your status with the

3 reserve police. I just want to make sure I understand

4 it. Let me tell you what I think your testimony was

5 and if I'm wrong, tell me I'm wrong. Will you do that

6 for me? Okay. As I understand it, there was a reserve

7 police unit that was in Bradina that came under the

8 jurisdiction of the Police Department, the MUP, in

9 Konjic, and at some time in the Spring of 1992 all of

10 the Croatian and Muslim members of that reserve police

11 unit left the unit and at that point you were asked to

12 join the reserve police; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And as reserve policemen, you did what policemen do.

15 You were a police officer?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And that's when you got your weapon?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the uniform you were wearing?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. By the way, I understand that you -- all the time you

22 were in Celebici you wore the same clothes, the clothes

23 you were arrested in; is that right?

24 A. In Celebici, yes.

25 Q. And that was your police uniform; is that right?

Page 4963

1 A. No. I was not arrested in my police uniform. I was

2 arrested in my civilian clothes.

3 Q. So you had an automatic weapon when you surrendered but

4 you were not wearing a uniform; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Your Honour, I would pass the witness. The only other

7 thing I have is I just want to get on the record the

8 number of that picture on the stand. When it is

9 brought back to the Registrar, if he would just read

10 that into the record. There is apparently some

11 confusion over exactly what the Exhibit Number is.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

13 MR MORAN: Thank you, your Honour.


15 MR MORAN: Your Honour, if we could get that Exhibit Number

16 read?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: What is the number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit that was identified by the

19 witness is D15/H.

20 MR ACKERMAN: May I proceed now, your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Mr Ackerman, you can proceed.

22 Cross-examination by Mr Ackerman.

23 MR ACKERMAN: Mr M, may name is John Ackerman.

24 I represent Mr Landzo. Good afternoon?

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 4964

1 Q. I'm going to try to ask you questions that are easily

2 understood and if you don't understand a question that

3 I ask you, could you please let me know that you don't

4 understand it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I want to know, first of all, how many times you have

7 talked to other people before arriving at this court

8 about your experiences at Celebici camp?

9 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it,

10 please?

11 Q. Yes. How many times have you talked to people about

12 your experiences at Celebici camp before today?

13 A. How many times? It's difficult to say how many times.

14 Of course I spoke about my experiences with my mother

15 and my father, my relatives and friends. I don't know

16 how many times.

17 Q. How many times have you talked about those experiences

18 with people in some kind of authority, prosecutors,

19 people who work for prosecutors, organisations, things

20 of that nature?

21 A. I'm afraid it's unclear to me your question. I spoke

22 to people who are in Belgrade, in the detainees

23 association. I personally am writing memoires on my

24 experiences in the camp. I don't know who you are

25 referring to, which officials. Whom do you have in

Page 4965

1 mind exactly?

2 Q. Let me see if I can get more specific and I think maybe

3 the Registrar has anticipated where we're going next.

4 I want to show you some photographs and tell me if you

5 can recognise any of the people depicted in these

6 photographs. I think there are three; correct? What

7 I'd like you to do is once you look at them, then put

8 them over there on that ELMO so we can all see the ones

9 you are referring to. Could you do that, please? The

10 arms on that ELMO need to be extended a little bit so

11 that light doesn't shine right straight down on the --

12 yes, thank you.

13 A. Mr Bjelica is the only one I recognise, no-one else.

14 Q. Okay. That's a person -- you just got a close-up of

15 his chest. You recognise that person and you know that

16 person; correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. The other two photographs that you were shown are people

19 that you've not seen before?

20 A. No. I have never seen them before.

21 Q. Now, first of all, with regard to the person whom you

22 indicate that you do know, have you discussed your

23 experiences at Celebici camp with that person,

24 Dr Bjelica?

25 A. Dr Bjelica, upon my release from the camp, enabled a

Page 4966

1 detailed check-up, medical check-up, and he made it

2 possible for me to get the appropriate medicine, and he

3 helped me a lot. He X-rayed my ribs, my chest and my

4 pelvis. So he was the man who examined me, gave me the

5 medicines I needed and helped me.

6 Q. Do you have the X-rays he took of your chest?

7 A. Yes, in Belgrade. I think he has them.

8 Q. Didn't he give them to you for you to take home?

9 A. No, he didn't give them to me, because I was supposed to

10 come again for an examination. In the meantime I had

11 to leave, I had to travel, so that I didn't go back

12 there.

13 Q. Were there any blood tests or any other tests beyond the

14 X-rays that were done while you visited Dr Bjelica?

15 A. Yes. He carried out a complete test of my blood, my

16 urine, all X-rays of my lungs, a detailed medical

17 examination.

18 Q. And before you left there did he give you all of the

19 results of all of the tests to take with you?

20 A. No. I just said no, because I had intended to go back

21 to see him again.

22 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Petar Fiodorev?

23 A. No.

24 Q. To your knowledge you have never spoken with that

25 person?

Page 4967

1 A. No, never.

2 Q. Branko Jovanovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Do you know a person who claims to be the coordinator of

5 the Association for the Tribunal in The Hague? Do you

6 know who that might be?

7 A. No.

8 Q. How long has it been since you had occasion to visit the

9 offices of the Association of Detainees in Belgrade?

10 A. You mean after my release from prison?

11 Q. No. I'm talking about today. How long has it been

12 since you have been there? Were you there last week?

13 A. Roughly maybe two years ago.

14 Q. Are you a member of the Association?

15 A. The Association of what?

16 Q. The Association of Detainees?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you ever a member of the Association of Detainees?

19 A. No. I just visited the Association. Immediately after

20 my release I went to the premises of the Association,

21 but I was never a member.

22 Q. I take it you visited the Association for the purpose of

23 giving them a statement regarding your experiences at

24 Celebici camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4968

1 Q. And do you know where that statement is?

2 A. I don't know where the statement is. I don't know that

3 -- I do know that I didn't make such a statement.

4 I just said how long I had spent in prison, when

5 I entered, when I was released. I didn't give a

6 complete statement, because, as I said, I'm writing my

7 memoires. So I kept it to myself. So I didn't make a

8 statement about all that happened in Celebici, about my

9 whole stay in Celebici, just certain general facts, when

10 admitted, when released, who was there. So a very

11 short statement, maybe one typed page, not more.

12 Q. And I take it you've not seen that since that day?

13 A. Yes, I have seen it.

14 Q. Do you have it with you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When did you last see it?

17 A. Maybe seven or eight months ago.

18 Q. Where was it when you saw it?

19 A. You mean the place?

20 Q. Yes. Where did you see the statement? Who had it?

21 A. I can't tell you and I don't want to tell you where

22 I was, but I found the statement in a written document,

23 in a book which is a collection. So I saw my statement

24 printed in a document.

25 Q. Can you tell me what that document is?

Page 4969

1 A. I wouldn't like to do that.

2 Q. Is it a printed book?

3 A. I said I wouldn't like to tell you.

4 Q. Your Honours, I would ask that he be ordered to answer

5 that question. I think it's an important question.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I don't know how important it is to

7 you. He says he will not answer it. If there's

8 anything that might incriminate him, he might not.

9 MR ACKERMAN: He has not said that.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: If he is unwilling, then there must be

11 some fears.

12 MR ACKERMAN: Your Honours, this is an awfully important

13 issue, because we have been enquiring now for weeks

14 about what has happened to the statements that we

15 understand were given to the Association of Detainees.

16 The Prosecutor's office has represented they don't have

17 them and has never seen them. It all of a sudden

18 appears that this witness knows where they are, that

19 they are published in a book and I think they might be

20 extremely valuable for purposes of impeachment in

21 cross-examination of witnesses. So I think we are

22 entitled to know what this book is and how we might be

23 able to get our hands on it. If he is concerned about

24 saying this in public session, I would be delighted to

25 go into private session so he can say it that way. If

Page 4970

1 he is not willing to say it even in private session,

2 I would be happy for him to write it down so we can get

3 it that way. I think we are entitled to this

4 information. If this witness has made a prior

5 statement that may be useful for impeaching him and has

6 disclosed to us the location of other statements that

7 might exist from other witnesses, then I think we are

8 entitled to that information. If the Prosecutor knows

9 what he is talking about, they ought to disclose it to

10 us as part of their obligation to provide us with

11 information that they know about. So as a final last

12 ditch effort I think the Prosecutor could be instructed

13 to ask him in private and give us that information, but

14 I think we're absolutely entitled to it, until such time

15 as this witness might say that revealing this

16 information might have some tendency to incriminate him,

17 and then, of course, he would be protected by the rules,

18 but he has not gotten to that point.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: As far as I'm concerned, he has

20 refused. If you have any other means of exploring how

21 to get it from him, you might do so.

22 MS McHENRY: On behalf of the prosecution, we certainly --

23 we are willing to talk to the witness privately to find

24 out what kind of concerns he has. They may well be

25 concerns about disclosing where he lives or other

Page 4971

1 people. So if it's necessary -- I'm not sure that

2 I believe it's necessary -- but the Prosecution would

3 certainly be willing to do that privately.

4 MR ACKERMAN: Please understand that I have no interest

5 whatsoever in where you live, Mr M, and I'm not asking

6 you that. Do you understand that?

7 A. I have understood that. This document is the personal

8 archives of a friend of mine. I saw this personally.

9 Many people haven't seen it and I absolutely do not wish

10 to disclose it. You asked me where I saw it and when,

11 so you want to know where I live, how I live, who are my

12 friends, which company I mix with, and that is something

13 I don't want to disclose.

14 Q. I will not ask you any of those questions that you just

15 mentioned but I will ask you to tell us the name of the

16 person who has this statement and other statements that

17 are published in a book.

18 A. I cannot tell you. It is a friend. It is his

19 personal documentation and it has nothing to do with

20 this trial.

21 Q. Your Honours, this witness has come here and given

22 direct testimony in this case. He is now subject to

23 cross-examination. I think it's an absolute denial for

24 the right of cross-examination for this witness to be

25 able to choose which questions he will answer and which

Page 4972

1 ones he won't. I, therefore, move that his entire

2 testimony before this Tribunal be stricken or in the

3 alternative that he be ordered to answer the questions

4 asked of him?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You might as well give your reply to

6 that.

7 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, we would strongly object. It is

8 very often the case that witnesses may know -- may not

9 want to for safety considerations or any other

10 considerations not want to give the identity of certain

11 persons and, in fact, I believe there's a provision in

12 the rules which indicates that persons can have

13 confidential information. I would also state that to

14 the extent that there may well be circumstances where

15 your Honours would want to direct someone to answer

16 something, this is not one of them. The idea that some

17 years ago this witness may have given a less than one

18 page statement, which only contained when he went to

19 Celebici and when he was released, certainly cannot be

20 considered the kind of important information that

21 deprives the accused of cross-examination. We think

22 this is far and beyond, and the witness is entitled,

23 I believe, to keep confidential such information that he

24 -- where he doesn't know the desires of the person who

25 may have this, and the idea that this would be necessary

Page 4973

1 for this kind of thing, so that the defence can find

2 this potentially -- can find this very short statement I

3 do not believe is necessary for cross-examination. It

4 may well be that many people, many witnesses often have

5 given statements to government agencies, NGOs, you know,

6 the defence, but there's no requirement anywhere, nor is

7 it part of common sense, that the defence must be

8 entitled to explore every single statement before

9 effectively cross-examining.

10 JUDGE JAN: But wouldn't that be the first statement which

11 the witness made after his release from Celebici and

12 wouldn't it be on that account very relevant?

13 MS McHENRY: Your Honour, the witness has already said with

14 respect to this statement that it is a very brief

15 statement that did not discuss his experiences but just

16 discussed general information, such as when he went to

17 Celebici and when he got out of Celebici.

18 JUDGE JAN: But he knows where that statement is. It is in

19 a friend's archives.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

21 JUDGE JAN: He knows where that statement is because it is

22 in his friend's archives. Can't you obtain a copy of

23 that statement?

24 MS McHENRY: Certainly the Prosecution has indicated that

25 it is happy to talk to this witness privately to

Page 4974

1 determine more about this, but given what this witness

2 has said, which is that it is a very brief statement,

3 and I don't believe that there's any need for it, but

4 the Prosecution is certainly willing to do that.

5 MR ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the record of this

6 witness' testimony goes beyond the representation of

7 Ms McHenry. He said that the statement was probably

8 only a page long, but it wasn't just when he got into

9 Celebici and when he got out. He said that it talked

10 about who was there. Now who was there could be

11 awfully important to what we're doing here. The larger

12 issue really tends to put us all on the horns of a very

13 large dilemma. We have been suggesting now for some

14 time and have provided evidence to this Chamber that

15 each of these detainees gave statements to the

16 Association of Detainees in Belgrade at some point.

17 The Prosecution has denied any knowledge of that. They

18 have told us they have made efforts to acquire those

19 statements. They have told us that there are no such

20 statements. We have asked other witnesses that have

21 come here from the Association of Detainees that have

22 been there, who said: "No. No statements, no

23 statements". That's what we've gotten over and over and

24 over. Now all of a sudden a witness comes and says

25 that he has seen a book, a personal compilation of

Page 4975

1 apparently statements that detainees made at the

2 Association of Detainees. Now it may be that this

3 person's statement is one page long. It's hard to say

4 what's contained in that one page but there are likely

5 statements in there from other detainees.

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Actually I think --

7 MR ACKERMAN: Unless we can get to the bottom of that, we

8 are really in a fairly large dilemma.

9 Second of all, Rule 77 of the Tribunal says that:

10 "A witness who refuses or fails to answer a

11 question relevant to the issue before the Chamber may be

12 found in contempt of the Tribunal".

13 I'm not going so far as to ask the court to find

14 this gentleman in contempt, but simply to order him to

15 answer the question or strike his testimony, one or the

16 other. If he's not willing to be subject to

17 cross-examination, then his direct testimony should not

18 be a part of your consideration.

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think in certain cases when a

20 witness is unable to submit -- give an answer which

21 might to a large extent satisfy the defence, he might

22 say so clearly. I think he said he knows where it

23 is. At the most if we follow the undertaking of the

24 Prosecution, it might give us the name and possibly how

25 to get at this friend who has this statement. Perhaps

Page 4976

1 that might be possible. I do not think he can be

2 compelled to disclose the name of the friend in open

3 session anyway. I wouldn't want him to. Whichever

4 way you put it, these proceedings have been a very

5 delicate one in several cases. Not only so many things

6 might have been happening and if somebody is

7 legitimately suspicious of certain things about the

8 evidence he might give, one should have some respect for

9 that view.

10 MR ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I agree with what you have just

11 said. I certainly do not want to take any steps here

12 that would put any individual in any kind of personal

13 danger. Therefore, I temper the remarks that I make

14 with that. However, anything that we can do that would

15 help this Chamber to find the truth, then I think it's

16 important that we take that step in an attempt to find

17 the truth. As Judge Jan has pointed out, if this

18 statement and other statements are the first statements

19 that these people made after leaving Celebici, they

20 might be the most important and most revealing

21 statements.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Frankly I don't want to be insensitive

23 to the interests of the accused persons. I know

24 everything is concerning the trial as a whole.

25 Sometimes if you push perhaps certain privileges too

Page 4977

1 far, it might open the hornets' nest which otherwise

2 no-one wants to. I agree we might persuade the

3 Prosecution to go some way to try to find that out,

4 these statements, but I do not think it is correct

5 merely because he has indicated this statement exists

6 somewhere, he has to be pushed to the limits of it. We

7 will do everything to get that. I think Ms McHenry has

8 given, I wouldn't say an undertaking, but perhaps she

9 might make some efforts.

10 MR ACKERMAN: I think where we are, the Prosecutor is going

11 to look into this matter in some detail with the witness

12 and hopefully have some kind of an answer for us in the

13 morning. I am wondering if it might not be appropriate

14 to go ahead and recess now for the evening and see what

15 that answer is in the morning before I pursue this line

16 any further, or if you would like me to go on to another

17 matter, I can do that too. It is up to you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can go on to another matter.

19 MR ACKERMAN: All right.

20 You have told us that you are in the process of

21 writing your memoires of your experiences, I take it

22 during the war. Is that fairly complete in manuscript

23 form at this point or what?

24 A. It is a manuscript.

25 Q. And have you provided a copy of that to the Prosecutor?

Page 4978

1 A. No. No. I'm not going to give the Prosecutor my

2 memoires.

3 Q. Did you bring a copy of it with you when you came here?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you intend for this simply to be your private

6 memoires or do you hope to have it published?

7 A. I have had offers from publishing houses, but I want

8 this to be my personal affair. For the present I do

9 not wish to publish it. Maybe at some later stage, but

10 for the present, no. I want to keep it for myself.

11 I may even print it for my own benefit, but at present

12 it's in manuscript form.

13 Q. So I take it you've kept it totally to yourself and not

14 shared it with other persons?

15 A. Only my closest friends, but not the public.

16 Q. Did you use that manuscript in any respect to help you

17 prepare yourself to give your testimony here today?

18 A. No. No.

19 Q. What is it that you looked at to help you refresh your

20 memory for your testimony here today?

21 A. Nothing at all. My memory is sufficiently fresh.

22 These are things one does not forget.

23 Q. Did you have any conversation with Ms McHenry regarding

24 what your testimony would be here today?

25 A. With Ms McHenry I spoke about these things, about the

Page 4979

1 method of work, on the position of witnesses, on

2 translation, about my protection, that I wanted to be

3 protected. I received assurances that I would not be

4 seen, that I would not be taped -- shown to the

5 public. She explained to me how the interpretation

6 works, how the Tribunal works. She answered my

7 questions.

8 Q. You didn't go over the testimony you were going to give

9 here at all?

10 A. No. Even she doesn't know what people will ask me. We

11 spoke about general things in preparation of this

12 testimony. The method of work, that I should wait for

13 the interpretation, and that kind of thing. She read

14 to me my statement.

15 MS McHENRY: Just to clarify, I think when defence counsel

16 ask if they -- if you went over the testimony, I think

17 to some witnesses that may mean did you practise? Were

18 you told the questions that would be asked? I think if

19 defence counsel would ask was anything about what

20 happened at Celebici discussed or did she ask you any

21 questions, you might get a different answer to the

22 question of "you didn't go over the testimony".

23 MR ACKERMAN: I guess now that you have heard that, you can

24 tell me that you, in fact, discussed your experiences at

25 Celebici with Ms McHenry prior to giving your testimony

Page 4980

1 here, can you not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What you just told us was that you had an opportunity to

4 either read your statement to the OTP or have that

5 statement read to you by Ms McHenry; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And what you've also told us was that it was really

8 totally unnecessary to have that statement read to you

9 or to consult any other statement that you might have

10 made, because you have such a crisp and clear memory of

11 everything that happened to you at Celebici. Is that

12 your position?

13 A. It was quite sufficient for me to read my statement. I

14 do remember things, but sometimes one gets a little

15 confused. It is my statement that I wanted to re-read.

16 Q. Did you have occasion to take a copy of it with you out

17 of this building to your hotel, so that you could spend

18 some time studying it?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. And would it have been -- would it have been yesterday

21 that you had an opportunity to see it or hear it read to

22 you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Would it have been Friday, Saturday?

25 A. Thursday -- I think it was Friday or Saturday -- no,

Page 4981

1 I think it was Saturday.

2 Q. So two or three days ago?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So you only had to remember what was in your statement

5 for two or three days to be able to completely reflect

6 in your testimony here today what you had said in your

7 statement; correct?

8 A. No, I think not. I don't know how you understand this,

9 but I know that the statement I made was correct and

10 that I personally asked for this statement to be read to

11 me. Nobody forced me, nor told me to say this, so that

12 I claim that my statement is correct. I remember what

13 I said there. I have the feeling that you are under

14 the impression that somebody persuaded me what to say.

15 No. What is said in that statement is the truth. It's

16 not something that was made up.

17 Q. I really didn't understand that to be the force of any

18 of my questions. My questions have to do with when was

19 the last time you reviewed your statement before you

20 came in here to testify today and I think you've told me

21 that was Saturday; correct?

22 A. Yes. I said clearly it was Saturday.

23 Q. And you've not had an opportunity since Saturday to see

24 it again?

25 A. No.

Page 4982

1 Q. And do you think between Saturday and today you have

2 forgotten anything that was in your statement?

3 A. I think that the questions are rather provocative. I

4 can never forget what happened to me.

5 Q. Cross-examination is supposed to be provocative.

6 That's what it's designed to be. It's to test your

7 truth-telling and those kinds of things. Now the

8 question that I asked you was: have you forgotten,

9 since Saturday, the things that you read that were in

10 your statement? That is the question I want to know?

11 MS McHENRY: Objection. Asked and answered. The witness

12 has already indicated that he remembers what happened

13 and that his statement was correct.

14 MR ACKERMAN: Actually, your Honours, he hasn't answered

15 that. I can see it right on the screen. His answer

16 had nothing to do with my question.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: That is from Saturday to Monday.


19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Those are the days.


21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: But his earlier answers have been he

22 will never forget what has happened to him. That

23 refers to this period. That was the statement he made

24 to the Prosecution.


Page 4983

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Except you think my interpretation is

2 wrong, but this is exactly what he has just said.

3 MR ACKERMAN: If that's what the court believes he said,

4 I'll accept that and go on to the next question.

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. Go on to the next question.


7 MS McHENRY: If I just may again ask for clarification,

8 I think when the witness was asked about who read his

9 statement over and if it was -- I don't think it is

10 clear that the statement was read over to him in full.

11 I might with all due respect ask that defence counsel

12 might want to ask whether or not the entire statement

13 was read to him and, if so, by whom, because I think

14 there may be some confusion about that also.

15 MR ACKERMAN: Well, Ms McHenry wants me to ask you if

16 anyone read your whole statement to you?

17 A. I don't know. I think it was the whole statement that

18 was read to me.

19 Q. Who was it that read it to you?

20 A. I did personally.

21 Q. So you read it yourself?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you read a Serbo-Croatian version of it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I thought you had told us earlier that someone had read

Page 4984

1 it to you. Was that a -- did I misunderstand you about

2 that?

3 A. No. I personally read it in the Serbo-Croatian

4 language.

5 Q. Was there ever a time when Ms McHenry read part of it to

6 you to remind you of parts of it or anything? Do you

7 recall her reading any of it to you?

8 A. No, I think not. The statement was there. I read

9 it. If there may have been a printing error, I could

10 correct it and that was all. There were no errors in

11 the statement, nor any technical errors of that kind.

12 Q. All right. The statement which you read on Saturday,

13 having already a crystal clear memory of your

14 experiences, when you testified here this morning, you

15 recall, of course, being asked about the brothers

16 Dordic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you recall being asked about a sexual incident that

19 went on with the brothers Dordic? You recall that, do

20 you not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It is true, isn't it, that in your review of your

23 statement it was very clear in your statement that you

24 had named a couple of the guards having been involved in

25 that; correct?

Page 4985

1 A. I don't recall. I don't remember the names of the

2 guards, just now anyway.

3 Q. And it's true that in your testimony this morning you

4 also said that you didn't remember the names of the

5 guards that you had said in your statement might have

6 been involved in that incident. That's what you said

7 this morning in your testimony too; right?

8 A. Yes. I can't remember their names. Maybe when I made

9 the statement I still remembered, because that was

10 earlier on, but I just don't remember now.

11 Q. But you re-read that statement as short a time ago as

12 Saturday and you've forgotten again since Saturday with

13 this crystal clear memory you talk about?

14 A. Yes. I've forgotten the names of the guards. I didn't

15 read it so carefully. I didn't pay so much

16 attention. I simply forgot the names of the guards.

17 Q. Well, did you understand that what you were coming to do

18 here is a pretty serious matter?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Don't you think it's important to be careful in the

21 process of preparing yourself and giving your testimony

22 here?

23 MS McHENRY: Objection, your Honour. I think this is not

24 a fair question for examination. There's nothing about

25 what this witness has said that indicates that he is

Page 4986

1 doing anything other than testifying truthfully about

2 his memory. I think this is improper.

3 MR ACKERMAN: Your Honours, he just said he didn't read his

4 statement carefully. I was just exploring that

5 statement that he made, that he wasn't being careful on

6 Saturday when he read his statement. So I think it was

7 absolutely invited by his testimony.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. His statement is

9 already made. Whether he read it carefully or not,

10 I think it's a statement. It depends on what use one

11 makes of it.

12 MR ACKERMAN: Yes. Your Honours, I have a great deal

13 more. This little tiny piece of what I was going to

14 ask him stretched into this amount of time. I think I

15 am going to be at least another hour. Would you like

16 me to proceed now or would you like to break now?

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: No. We will break and we'll come back

18 tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, but before we break,

19 Ms McHenry, it might be helpful to persuade the witness

20 that all that is required is the statement and not

21 whatever he is concerned about, because of the statement

22 he made to someone about a particular issue.

23 MS McHENRY: I will certainly explore the issue and report

24 to your Honours and defence counsel tomorrow.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Because definitely whoever is his

Page 4987

1 friend who might have got the statement into his book,

2 he cannot be responsible for that statement. Whether

3 he is not in a position to get that statement if it is

4 used for impeachment purposes. This is what counsel is

5 suggesting. If there's anything in it which can affect

6 his testimony before the Trial Chamber. I suppose that

7 is what you want him to produce.

8 MR ACKERMAN: Yes, your Honour. Thank you very much.

9 I appreciate that.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: So the Trial Chamber will now rise.

11 (5.40 pm)

12 (Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)

13 --ooOoo--