Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5124

1 Wednesday, 16th July 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 (In open session)

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, it

5 looks like we have a new witness this morning.

6 MR. TURONE: Good morning, your Honours. Yes, your

7 Honours, we have a new witness for today. For the

8 information of your Honours, we have only two witnesses

9 left for this week, because things went rather quickly,

10 and we will have only two witnesses in The Hague for

11 this week, the coming witness and the next one. The new

12 witness we are going to call today is Zoran Ninkovic.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can you invite him?

14 (Witness enters court)

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Please swear the witness.

16 Mr. Zoran Ninkovic (sworn)

17 Examined by Mr. Turone

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the appearances, please?

19 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. I am Giuliano Turone,

20 prosecuting attorney. I am here with my co-counsel,

21 Ms. Teresa McHenry, and Ms. Elles van Dusschoten, case

22 manager.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: May we have the appearances on the

24 Defence, please?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

Page 5125

1 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for

2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. In the team with me is my

3 colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

4 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Zeljko

5 Olujic, Defence Attorney for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. I am

6 from Croatia, and in the team with me is my co-counsel

7 Mr. Michael Greaves, the Defence Attorney from the United

8 Kingdom and Northern Ireland.

9 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

10 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, Defence Counsel for

11 Mr. Hazim Delic. My co-counsel is Mr. Tom Moran,

12 attorney from Houston, Texas.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I'm John

14 Ackerman, appearing here on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.

15 My co-counsel is Ms. Cynthia McMurrey from the United

16 States. Thank you.

17 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?

19 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can.

20 MR. TURONE: Thank you.

21 Good morning, sir. Would you please state your

22 full name for the court?

23 A. (In interpretation): My name is Zoran Ninkovic.

24 Q. What is your date of birth?

25 A. I was born 27th December 1959.

Page 5126

1 Q. And what is your ethnic group?

2 A. I'm Serb by nationality.

3 Q. Where were you born?

4 A. I was born in the Konjic municipality.

5 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, what education did you receive? I mean,

6 what kind of schools did you attend?

7 A. I finished the elementary school in Konjic and the

8 secondary school in Mostar.

9 Q. What was your profession in 1992?

10 A. I was auto mechanic and I worked for Konjictrans in

11 Konjic.

12 Q. Did you remain in Konjic in the months of April and May

13 1992?

14 A. In May and April of 1992 I was on the territory of the

15 Konjic municipality.

16 Q. I mean, did you remain in Konjic town in those two

17 months?

18 A. I was in Donje Selo until May 15th and after May 15th

19 I was in Bradina.

20 Q. Can you say if there was any specific reason why you

21 moved to Bradina?

22 A. The particular reason was that my mother-in-law lived up

23 there, that is the mother of my wife lived there.

24 Q. You say approximately the date when you moved to

25 Bradina. Can you repeat that to me?

Page 5127

1 A. I left around May 15th, 1992 from Donje Selo. I left

2 Donje Selo and on that same day I arrived in Bradina.

3 Q. In Bradina -- where did you live in Bradina? Which

4 house did you live in in Bradina? Your mother-in-law's

5 house?

6 A. I lived with my mother-in-law in Gornja Bradina.

7 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, can you say on which day was the village of

8 Bradina affected by military action or shellings,

9 something like that?

10 A. The shellings took place on 26th May 1992.

11 Q. Where did you spend the night after the shelling? Did

12 you move to a safer place?

13 A. The night between 26th and 27th May I spent in a hamlet

14 called Barakusa where there was a house which was safer,

15 because it had a very thick concrete slab on top.

16 Q. Is Barakusa part of Bradina?

17 A. Yes. Barakusa is part -- it's a hamlet of some ten

18 houses in Upper Bradina.

19 Q. How many people were there spending the night in this

20 house in Barakusa?

21 A. This house had two floors and there were about 100

22 persons there, including men, women, children and the

23 elderly, all together on these two floors.

24 Q. 100 people in the two floors of this house, is that

25 correct, about?

Page 5128

1 A. Yes, that's correct.

2 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, did you personally know a man named Petko

3 Gligorevic?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. How did you know him? What kind of a relationship had

6 you with him?

7 A. Petko Gligorevic was my mother-in-law's first neighbour.

8 Q. Did Petko Gligorevic also spend that night in that same

9 house in Barakusa?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now did you personally know a man named Miroslav

12 Vujicic?

13 A. Yes, I did know him.

14 Q. And how did you know him?

15 A. I knew him from the street, from the restaurants, from

16 the cafes.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. Did Miroslav Vujicic also

18 spend that night in the same house in Barakusa?

19 A. Yes. He spent the night there, together with his wife

20 and his child.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, sir, what happened to you

22 the following morning, I mean the morning of May 27th?

23 A. On 27th May a group arrived in the morning.

24 Q. A group of whom?

25 A. A group of members of the Muslim army led by Mitke

Page 5129

1 Pirkic.

2 Q. How many were these people approximately?

3 A. There were about ten of them.

4 Q. Did they have any uniform?

5 A. Some wore uniforms and maybe one or two did not wear

6 them. They were armed but wore no uniforms.

7 Q. On the ones who had a uniform, did you observe any

8 insignia on the uniforms?

9 A. They wore uniforms. I did not notice the insignia.

10 Q. All right. What did these soldiers do when they

11 arrived at this house in Barakusa?

12 A. They ordered us all to come out of the house. They

13 separated women and children and the men stayed there on

14 this village road as they came out, and obviously I was

15 there with them as I came out.

16 Q. How were you treated by these soldiers on this occasion?

17 A. They were telling us that we were Cetniks, that we

18 wanted to attack them, to kill them, and things like

19 that.

20 Q. Were you told why you were being arrested on this

21 occasion?

22 A. On that occasion we were not told anything about why we

23 were being arrested. I guess because we were Serbs.

24 Q. Were Petko Gligorevic and Miroslav Vujicic arrested on

25 the same occasion as you that morning?

Page 5130

1 A. Yes. , they were.

2 Q. By the way, Mr. Ninkovic, do you personally know another

3 man named Radoslav Vujicic?

4 A. Yes, I know him.

5 Q. How do you know him? Which relationship do you have

6 with him?

7 A. Since he worked in the garage of Sipad Konjic and I did

8 the same kind of work at Konjictrans, we would visit

9 each other. We would swap auto parts. He would come

10 to my place of work and I would come over to his.

11 Q. Is Radoslav a relative of Miroslav Vujicic?

12 A. Radoslav is a brother of Miroslav Vujicic.

13 Q. Was Radoslav Vujicic also arrested in the same occasion,

14 that same morning?

15 A. Yes, he was arrested.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, what happened to you after you were

17 arrested in Barakusa?

18 A. I was brought in front of Mico Kuljanin's restaurant and

19 from there they escorted us on foot to beyond the

20 tunnel, to the butcher Zelenovic. They took

21 everything. They took everything. They made us take

22 all the valuables out of our pockets. They said if

23 they found anything with anyone they would kill them.

24 That's where the mistreatment started. We were hit

25 with the rifle butts, with some wooden sticks, and after

Page 5131

1 some of this mistreatment we were put on a truck.

2 Q. Can you say approximately how many prisoners were put on

3 that truck?

4 A. About 75 prisoners were put on this truck.

5 Q. You say that they took your valuables on the occasion of

6 your arrest. What did they take exactly from you? Do

7 you remember?

8 A. I myself had some money, I had a wrist watch. They

9 took my jacket off. I had to leave it behind. I was

10 in an undershirt and pants.

11 Q. By the way, did you ever get your property back later on

12 or not?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. All right. After being put in this truck together with

15 other 75 people could you notice whether Petko

16 Gligorevic and Miroslav Vujicic were also on the same

17 truck?

18 A. It was so tightly packed on this truck, the people were

19 so tightly packed, that at that time I did not notice

20 it.

21 Q. But anyway they were part of the 75 people who were

22 arrested with you, you say; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. With this truck where were you brought right after

25 getting into this truck?

Page 5132

1 A. After we were put on the truck we were taken to the

2 military facility of the former JNA in Celebici.

3 Q. Can you say approximately at what time did you arrive at

4 Celebici that day?

5 A. Approximately 11 o'clock in the morning.

6 Q. That was, you said, May 27th; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, on 27th May.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, just to get an overview and to give

9 right away an idea to us, can you say immediately how

10 long did you remain in Celebici in all?

11 A. Altogether with that day, that day?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. That day from 11.00 in the morning, first dusk, 7.00,

14 7.30. When they took us to the hangar, it was growing

15 dark.

16 Q. I'm sorry. My question is another one. I wanted to get

17 a general overview immediately and just give right away

18 an idea to the Trial Chamber on how many days in all you

19 spent in Celebici, and then we will go back to details?

20 A. Altogether I spent nine days in Celebici.

21 Q. All right. Going back to the day of your arrival at

22 Celebici, so 27th May, did the truck stop at the

23 entrance of the camp or inside the camp?

24 A. The truck came to a stop inside of the camp.

25 Q. Would you now tell us in detail what happened to you

Page 5133

1 right after your arrival inside the camp in Celebici?

2 A. When the truck arrived in Celebici the canvass was

3 rolled up and the gate was opened and on -- there were

4 four or five soldiers on each side waiting for us and

5 they had -- they beat us with some sticks and rifle

6 butts, and we had -- we were made to come off the truck

7 and line up against some concrete wall, which was a

8 couple of metres high, and we were made to lean against

9 -- put our hands up against the wall and we were -- the

10 threat was made that we would be killed if we lowered

11 our hands, and then the mistreatment started with blows

12 with the rifle butts and with -- and groups would arrive

13 and they would sort of beat each individual prisoner,

14 and I was one among them.

15 Q. So can you say in which position were these prisoners

16 along the wall? Do you mean face to the wall?

17 A. All prisoners were facing the wall, because it was

18 ordered that nobody should turn around or put their

19 hands down.

20 Q. So you were face to the wall together with the other

21 ones. May I ask you whether there were more prisoners on your

22 right or your left along this line along the wall?

23 A. There were more prisoners to the right. On the left

24 there were maybe about 10, 11 prisoners.

25 Q. Can you describe in some detail how was this beating

Page 5134

1 carried on by these soldiers?

2 A. The soldiers went from one prisoner to the next and they

3 were sort of -- they determined how much they were going

4 to beat each one, so that they beat up every individual

5 prisoner, beat them up.

6 Q. How long did this collective beating last?

7 A. This mass beating went on from 11.00 in the morning

8 until 7.00, 7.30 in the evening, when it was growing

9 dark and you couldn't see any more.

10 Q. Were there several rounds of beating during this time

11 between approximately noon and 7.00 pm?

12 A. I myself was only beaten once.

13 Q. How did the soldiers proceed in this beating and these

14 hours of beating? Did they start from the end of the

15 line, proceed along the line and then again in the other

16 direction? I want some details about that and how that

17 could take so many hours?

18 A. They started at the top to my right, and when they would

19 finish they would come back to the top from my right and

20 do it again.

21 Q. Did the soldiers say anything while beating you?

22 A. At one point a voice could be heard somewhere above us

23 asking certain questions, which we answered in a chorus:

24 "Yes, we will. Yes, we will". Finally the word --

25 the voice said: "Will you rape the boulas, the Muslim

Page 5135

1 women?" So we answered: "Yes". The response was: "You

2 will? Now you will see what will happen to you". Then

3 they cursed us and started beating us again.

4 Q. What was the reason for answering "yes" on this

5 occasion?

6 A. The reason was the fear that we felt, and I remember

7 this particular question but I don't remember all of

8 them. There were other questions that we had to answer

9 with "yes". This particular question: "Will you rape

10 the boula?", I didn't myself at first know what the word

11 meant, so we all said: "Yes, we will". The soldiers

12 then started all over again to beat the prisoners.

13 Q. So you say that there were different rounds of beating

14 back and forth along the line, and approximately how

15 long did every round of beating take, if you can say

16 this approximately?

17 A. I personally, when I was being beaten, I was hit twice

18 with a wooden pole, a very heavy pole, but I couldn't

19 say what it was. I think it was a wooden pole.

20 Q. Did you receive these two blows right at the beginning

21 of this beating?

22 A. Yes, when this first series of mistreatment started,

23 that was when I was mistreated.

24 Q. On which part of your body were you beaten on this first

25 series?

Page 5136

1 A. One blow on my left shoulder and the other one on the

2 right side of my back.

3 Q. Was there a time during the beating when you could

4 recognise any of the soldiers taking part in the

5 beating?

6 A. Yes. At one point when the soldiers appeared then some

7 prisoners before me asked -- prisoners left of me asked

8 if they could have some water. There was some water

9 there. When he reached me, I asked and he said

10 I could. Going towards the water I recognised Ramiz

11 Cibo.

12 Q. Did you know him from before?

13 A. Yes, I did. Ramiz Cibo was employed as a supervisor

14 in Konjictrans, the same company I worked in.

15 Q. Was he the man who allowed you to go to drink?

16 A. Yes, he was.

17 Q. Was the drinking water on your right or on your left?

18 I mean, in which direction did you move in order to go

19 to drink water?

20 A. I went to the left, left from the place where I stood.

21 Q. So was this drinking water far away on the left?

22 A. No. It was just at the end of the line left of the

23 column of prisoners. As the prisoners were standing,

24 left of them, at the end.

25 Q. So when you moved to the left in order to go to drink,

Page 5137

1 could you see anything particular concerning any of the

2 prisoners on your left?

3 A. To my left among those 10 or 11 people there was a man

4 lying on the concrete. He was not standing; he was

5 lying. I saw him with my own eyes lying on the

6 concrete. He wasn't standing; he was lying down.

7 Q. Do you know who this person was?

8 A. As we entered the hangar, we learned it was Petko

9 Gligorevic, because just when we were entering the

10 hangar, two of his brothers, Nenad and Predo Gligorevic

11 were there.

12 Q. How far from you was Petko Gligorevic in the line on

13 your left?

14 A. Roughly number -- he was the fifth or sixth man to my

15 left, because we were so fearful that it was impossible

16 to count exactly how many people there were. We were

17 so terrified.

18 Q. Can you say very approximately at what time of the day

19 did that happen, when you first saw Petko Gligorevic on

20 the ground?

21 A. This was somewhere in the afternoon, maybe an hour or

22 two, because when one is standing against the wall with

23 arms raised, one is terrified. You daren't look left

24 or right. You have to look in front of you. So it's

25 difficult to tell exactly, but I think it was in the

Page 5138

1 afternoon hours.

2 Q. Were you brought back to the same position in the line

3 after drinking?

4 A. Yes, I was brought back to the same place where I stood

5 before I went to drink water.

6 Q. Did you see again Petko Gligorevic on the ground when

7 you went back to your position after drinking?

8 A. Yes. I saw him when I was going to have a drink and

9 when I came back, when Ramiz was bringing me back to the

10 same position where I stood before.

11 Q. Was Petko Gligorevic in the same position as you saw him

12 while going to drink water?

13 A. Yes. He was in the same position. The man was lying

14 on the ground, on the concrete.

15 Q. Mr. Ninkovic, during the time you moved towards the

16 drinking water on your left and coming back to your

17 position, could you notice whether Miroslav Vujicic was

18 possibly one of the other prisoners on your left or not?

19 A. No. He wasn't on my left.

20 Q. Could you anyway notice at that time, going or coming

21 back from the water, the position of Miroslav Vujicic

22 anywhere along the line of prisoners?

23 A. No.

24 Q. By the way, did you have -- did you ever have any

25 occasion to see Miroslav Vujicic again any time after

Page 5139

1 your arrival at Celebici?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you personally remember which was the last time you

4 personally saw Miroslav Vujicic alive?

5 A. I saw Miroslav Vujicic in the night between 26th and

6 27th in the cellar of the house in Barakusa with his

7 wife and child.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, Mr. Ninkovic, again when you

9 moved to the drinking water on your left and when you

10 came back to your position at the wall, did you

11 recognise any other soldier or guard being present in

12 the area of the beating?

13 A. Coming back after having had some water, in my field of

14 vision I saw Hazim Delic, who was on crutches. He had

15 one of his legs in plaster.

16 Q. What was Mr. Delic doing?

17 A. He was standing.

18 Q. Can you say where was he exactly? I mean, with respect

19 to the line of prisoners.

20 A. He was behind the line of prisoners.

21 Q. At what distance from the line of prisoners

22 approximately?

23 A. Approximately some 15 metres from the back. Between the

24 backs of the prisoners and himself there was about 15

25 metres.

Page 5140

1 Q. Did you know Mr. Delic from before?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How did you know him?

4 A. I knew him also from the street by sight and going to

5 Sipad Prenj, where he worked as a locksmith in the

6 garage of the company Sipad Prenj. So going there

7 I would see him.

8 Q. Okay. Mr. Ninkovic, going back to this collective

9 beating at the wall, were you personally beaten again

10 after you were allowed to go to drink or in any of the

11 following series of beating?

12 A. When I was coming back after drinking water, I asked

13 Ramiz Cibo, as I knew him well, I asked him: "What are

14 you doing?", but he had two men accompanying him whom I

15 didn't know, and one of them hit me with a rifle butt

16 and told me to go back to my place against the wall and

17 to lift up my arms as high as I could.

18 Q. After that did you receive any more beatings or not --

19 at the wall, I mean, facing -- standing at the wall?

20 A. I was not beaten.

21 Q. Okay. After you went back from drinking water to your

22 position against the wall, did anything particular

23 happen; I mean during the following series of beatings?

24 A. On the right the beatings continued. I concluded that

25 they must have selected some people and beaten them

Page 5141

1 more. At one point a voice could be heard saying:

2 "I can't stand this any more. Don't beat me any

3 more", and then a couple of seconds after these words a

4 shot was heard. I was so afraid that at that moment I

5 didn't know what had happened.

6 Q. So you had a shot on your right-hand side. Can you say

7 approximately how far from you?

8 A. The shot could be heard to my right. It was close

9 because I could hear the shot very loudly.

10 Q. So, Mr. Ninkovic, you said that this collective beating

11 finished at about 7 o'clock pm; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, somewhere between 7.00 and 7.30. It was May, it

13 was getting dark, so when they stopped and when they led

14 us towards the hangar, it must have been around that

15 time.

16 Q. So you are saying you were led towards the hangar.

17 Which kind of a hangar? Where were you brought then?

18 A. We were lined up in a column two by two and we were

19 taken to the hangar, a large iron structure like a vast

20 garage.

21 Q. Did that hangar have a number or not? Do you know the

22 number of this hangar?

23 A. The number was the so-called Number 6.

24 Q. All right. When you left the wall in order to reach

25 Hangar 6, did you have a chance to see again Petko

Page 5142

1 Gligorevic lying on the ground or not?

2 A. No, I couldn't see him.

3 Q. Do you mean the body of Petko Gligorevic had been

4 removed?

5 A. I don't know whether he was removed.

6 Q. Anyway, you didn't see it any more. Did you have any

7 other chance to see Petko Gligorevic after that or his

8 body?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So when you reached Hangar 6, was the hangar empty or

11 were there already other prisoners inside?

12 A. The hangar was empty. We were the first to enter the

13 hangar.

14 Q. Where did you sit inside the hangar?

15 A. I sat, when you entered the door, the left end of the

16 building, left of the iron door, because the door

17 stretched across the whole front of the hangar. So

18 I sat on the left-hand side of the wall, somewhere in

19 the middle.

20 Q. Can you say who was sitting close to you?

21 A. Baco Kuljanin; then Nedeljko Samoukovic; Dragan

22 Djordjic; Kuljanin nicknamed Futa; Stevan Gligorevic.

23 They were mostly Gligorevics. These were the four or

24 five people to my left and to my right when we were

25 sitting in the hangar.

Page 5143

1 Q. Did you see Radoslav Vujicic inside the hangar?

2 A. Yes. That same evening after we had entered the hangar

3 I saw Radoslav Vujicic, who was walking and crying, and

4 who kept repeating: "What have they done? They killed

5 my brother".

6 Q. Where was Radoslav Vujicic sitting inside the hangar?

7 A. He sat to my right inside the hangar.

8 Q. So was he also one of the persons close to you, sitting

9 near you?

10 A. Yes, in the same row as me.

11 Q. Can you say in more detail what did Radoslav Vujicic say

12 about the killing of his brother, Miroslav?

13 A. That first night after entering the hangar he kept

14 crying non-stop and saying: "Look what they did to me.

15 They killed my brother", and he kept repeating the same

16 sentence. He was crying. He was absolutely

17 distraught, and he kept repeating this same sentence.

18 Q. Did he or any of the prisoners you mentioned sitting

19 near you say anything more about the circumstances of

20 the death of Miroslav Vujicic?

21 A. Those who were sitting next to me, no-one knew anything

22 more specific.

23 Q. Did Radoslav Vujicic or any of the prisoners sitting

24 with you say anything about the shot you heard while

25 being on line?

Page 5144

1 A. Everybody said they heard the shot and everyone

2 concluded that that was how Miroslav Gligorevic had been

3 killed, because he wasn't there amongst us and his

4 brother Radoslav kept repeating these words practically

5 all night. They did this terrible thing to me. They

6 killed my brother".

7 Q. For the record I think you said Miroslav Gligorevic.

8 You meant Miroslav Vujicic?

9 A. Miroslav Vujicic. Miroslav Vujicic, yes.

10 Q. Of course. Mr. Ninkovic, do you have any knowledge of

11 any other prisoner who lost his life after the beating

12 you have been describing?

13 A. After the beating a man whose name I don't know, an

14 elderly man, who was brought to the hangar by one of the

15 prisoners, he was there for about three days with us in

16 the hangar, and after three days the guards came. A

17 man in a white coat -- I concluded it must have been a

18 doctor; I didn't know him -- and then the soldiers took

19 out the body of this man. I really don't know what the

20 man's name was.

21 Q. So approximately how long did this old man, this body,

22 remain in the hangar?

23 A. It was there for about three days.

24 Q. Was this man put on a particular place inside the

25 hangar?

Page 5145

1 A. He was placed in the direction of the door, on the same

2 side where the door was, and he was at the end of the

3 line sitting against the wall. There was one wall and

4 the other wall and the steel doors that stretched along

5 the length of the hangar.

6 Q. Could you observe this body with some attention and can

7 you describe it?

8 A. No, I didn't look.

9 Q. Did you notice any time whether this body, this man, had

10 any movement or was motionless?

11 A. The man, when he was brought in, he was taken out of a

12 wheelbarrow and placed on the floor, and he never

13 moved. If I had seen him get up and sit down or

14 something ... I didn't. He was lying down all the

15 time, motionless.

16 Q. So did you hear him moaning or emitting any noise, any

17 sound or not?

18 A. On the Thursday one could hear him. That was on the

19 28th, the morning. He was brought in in the night

20 between 27th and 28th. On the 28th you could hear his

21 moans. After that I couldn't hear him any more.

22 Q. All right. Going back now to the first moment you

23 entered Hangar 6 and were sitting there with the

24 prisoners you mentioned a while ago, did any of these

25 prisoners sitting together with you say anything about

Page 5146

1 the fate of Petko Gligorevic?

2 A. There were two brothers of his, Vojo and Petko

3 Gligorevic. They were sitting against the left wall.

4 Q. Petko Gligorevic?

5 A. Predo. Predo. Predo Gligorevic and the two brothers

6 said that they had no brother any more, that he had been

7 killed.

8 Q. All right, Mr. Ninkovic. Did the number -- you said you

9 arrived in a hangar which was empty and you were

10 approximately 75 people. So did the number of

11 prisoners in Hangar 6 have any variation after that

12 period, the first period of time -- I mean during your

13 stay there, I mean?

14 A. Yes. The number increased. They were bringing in more

15 prisoners.

16 Q. Can you explain in much detail when did that happen and

17 how many people?

18 A. One evening when Radoslav Vujicic was beaten up somebody

19 called him out from the door. It was night-time.

20 Radoslav Vujicic was beaten up. After the beating,

21 which lasted some 20 minutes, he was thrown back into

22 the hangar like a sack. He was calling out and begging

23 for help to reach the wall, because he couldn't move on

24 his own. Then we could hear at the same time blunt

25 blows outside and moans, because somebody else was being

Page 5147

1 beaten up. So then I and Baco Kuljanin got up and we

2 managed to drag Radoslav Vujicic next to us, because he

3 was in such a bad condition that wherever we touched

4 him, he would cry out: "Don't touch me. Don't touch

5 me", so that we only just managed to pull him to the

6 wall. At that moment somebody else was thrown in and

7 we didn't know who it was at that time. Afterwards

8 another six or seven prisoners were thrown in.

9 Q. Can you mention any names of these five or six new

10 guests of Hangar 6?

11 A. In the morning when it had dawned we saw that Mirko

12 Dordic had come, Mrkajic Mrki, known as Mrki, a football

13 player, Kisa Kuljanin, Zuza.

14 Q. All right. Were you ever interrogated by military

15 investigators while you were in Celebici?

16 A. Yes, I was called out once and Zovko Kuhar and Subasic

17 interrogated me.

18 Q. Could you say very approximately when did that happen

19 during the period of time you were in Celebici?

20 A. After about six or seven days.

21 Q. After, yes. Where in the camp did that happen?

22 A. They had that command building there and we were taken

23 down the road from the hangar, five of us. That's how

24 they separated us, in fives, and we were taken there.

25 Outside there was some kind of a table that was put

Page 5148

1 outside. It was summer. This Zovko Kuhar and Subasic

2 questioned me there.

3 Q. Do you remember or do you know who called you out of the

4 hangar in order to take you to the command building?

5 A. A guard called me out, Kravar. His last name is Spago,

6 first name Enid.

7 Q. So Zovko Kuhar and another person were interrogating

8 you; is that correct?

9 A. Yes. Zovko Kuhar, the former investigator of the MUP,

10 and Subasic.

11 Q. Were they in uniform?

12 A. Yes, they were.

13 Q. How were you treated during this interrogation?

14 A. I was not mistreated.

15 Q. During this interrogation were you accused of anything

16 specific?

17 A. Specifically I was accused of being on the side of the

18 Cetniks, that I was against the State of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina.

20 Q. Did you sign any record of statement, any piece of

21 paper, after this interrogation?

22 A. I did sign some small record, because I was not

23 interrogated very much, maybe ten minutes in all.

24 Q. Could you read the paper you signed or was that read out

25 to you?

Page 5149

1 A. No, it was not read out to me. I was just given it and

2 shown the place where to sign and that was all.

3 Q. What did they ask you? Do you remember the specific

4 questions they asked you?

5 A. They asked me why I went to Bradina, why did I leave the

6 town, why didn't I stay in town, and whether I had

7 weapons.

8 Q. You were talking a while ago about a mistreatment

9 suffered by Radoslav Kuljanin -- I mean -- pardon --

10 Radoslav Vujicic?

11 A. Vujicic, yes.

12 Q. The same night, when five or six new prisoners came.

13 Could you say do you know who called or took Radoslav

14 Vujicic out of the hangar?

15 A. I can't. I don't know who did, because they were

16 calling out from the other side of the door, and when

17 they take the person out they close the door. From my

18 vantage point it is impossible to see.

19 Q. How long could you hear blows and screams outside?

20 A. Between 15 and 20 minutes.

21 Q. Did you -- could you see who was the person who returned

22 Radoslav Vujicic into the hangar?

23 A. No, it was dark in the hangar. You couldn't see a

24 metre in front of you when the door was closed. We

25 couldn't see each other.

Page 5150

1 Q. Sure. So you said that you and another friend of yours

2 helped Radoslav Vujicic to go back to his position?

3 A. (Witness nodded.)

4 Q. Could you observe which kind of mistreatment of injuries

5 he had at that time?

6 JUDGE JAN: He gave the answer to that. Every part of his

7 body was hurting.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE JAN: He has already said that. Every part of his

10 body was hurting.

11 MR. TURONE: I want to ask him if he knows better and has to

12 give us some specific description of any specific part

13 of the body.

14 JUDGE JAN: It was night-time. It was night-time. Every

15 part of his body was hurting.

16 MR. TURONE: Well, if you want me to withdraw the question.

17 JUDGE JAN: Carry on. I was just pointing it out. It

18 was already on the record.

19 MR. TURONE: Do you have any knowledge about some specific

20 injuries of Radoslav Vujicic coming back into the hangar

21 that night?

22 A. That night we couldn't see anything because it was

23 dark. In the morning, when the day broke, when you

24 could see in the hangar, Radoslav Vujicic was in such a

25 poor state that he couldn't move. His both arms -- we

Page 5151

1 could see the white of the bone on the forearms, on both

2 forearms.

3 Q. Could you observe any other mistreatment of any other

4 prisoner during the days you were in Hangar 6 suffered

5 by any other?

6 A. That same night Zeljko Klimenta, called Keljo, was

7 mistreated.

8 Q. Was he called out of the hangar too?

9 A. No, he was not in the hangar with us. He had been

10 brought in, I don't know from where.

11 Q. So what could you observe personally of the mistreatment

12 suffered by him?

13 A. I saw him the same morning and he was in a poor

14 condition. He relieved himself in his pants. He

15 couldn't get up, so he just had urinated at the place

16 where he was lying.

17 Q. All right. What role did you observe, if you observed

18 anything, what role did you observe Delic having in the

19 Celebici camp?

20 A. Delic had a role that whenever he would come into the

21 hangar we would have to get up and salute him.

22 Q. How frequently did you see him inside Celebici Camp

23 during your stay there?

24 A. He would come in every day to the hangar.

25 Q. Can you say what to do -- to do what, I mean?

Page 5152

1 A. He would call out prisoners and on one occasion -- this

2 was during the day, 1.00 or 2 o'clock -- he came in.

3 He asked Radoslav Vujicic, he said. "Brother, who

4 killed you?". There was some kind of wooden crate for

5 weapons, for rifles. He gave Radoslav something to

6 drink. I know that there was something that was in a

7 vial. The second time he started calling out prisoners

8 according to some order -- I don't know what order that

9 was -- and they were taken out of the hangar. At that

10 time I did not know where they were going. Another

11 group of about 15, 16 prisoners left after that and

12 I was in the third group. I was called out. I was

13 approximately 7th or 8th to be called out.

14 Q. I understand you are talking about the last day in

15 Celebici. We'll talk about that later on.

16 A. (Witness nodded.)

17 Q. So do you have any knowledge about -- of who was the

18 Commander of the Celebici camp?

19 A. At that time I did not know who was the Commander. The

20 first commander, who introduced himself as a commander,

21 was Rale Musinovic.

22 Q. When did you see him?

23 A. I saw him on the 28th, the next day, the day after I was

24 arrested.

25 Q. Did you see him on any other occasion besides on the

Page 5153

1 28th?

2 A. I saw him on that day when I was in Celebici.

3 Q. Yes. What about who was the Commander of the Celebici

4 Camp in general? Do you know anything about any other

5 person?

6 A. I later found out that Commander Pavo was Zdravko Mucic.

7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mucic in the camp?

8 A. I saw him for the first time on 6th June.

9 Q. Do you remember -- can you describe this occasion on

10 June 6th when you saw Mr. Mucic in the camp the first

11 time?

12 A. I was talking about that moment before we were called

13 out. I was in the third group and Delic was calling us

14 out. We were coming out one by one through the door,

15 and in front of the door there was a van. To the right

16 was Pavo standing and on the other side was Buric, who

17 was the driver. At that time we were climbing into the

18 van one by one and that was the first time that I saw

19 Pavo.

20 Q. Did he wear a uniform?

21 A. Yes, he did.

22 Q. Did he talk to you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you know Mucic from before the war?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5154

1 Q. Can you explain how come you knew Mucic from before?

2 A. There were very few people in Konjic who did not know

3 Pavo Mucic, so I knew him. I knew him from the street,

4 from the cafes.

5 Q. Yes. So you didn't see him any other time in the camp

6 (sic) but that on June 6th?

7 A. That was the first time I saw him. I did see him on

8 other occasions, about two or three times.

9 Q. Do you mean in Celebici or where?

10 A. No, not in Celebici. I saw him in Celebici for the

11 first time on June 6th, in Celebici, when I was

12 transferred from Celebici to the Sports Hall in Musala.

13 Q. So was that the first time and the last time, or was

14 there a second time you saw Mucic in Celebici?

15 MR. GREAVES: He has answered that question. He has

16 answered that question.

17 MR. TURONE: All right. Mr. Ninkovic, did you -- do you

18 know who was Mr. Mucic's superior?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you were talking about this occasion about

21 June 6th. Was that the day when you left Celebici?

22 A. Yes.

23 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness' microphone be turned back

24 on, please.

25 MR. TURONE: Okay. That's done. So you were giving us

Page 5155

1 the account of your transfer from Celebici to Musala.

2 Can you give us a very detailed account of that after

3 Delic called you out from the hangar and what happened

4 with that van you saw?

5 A. While being called out by Delic, we would come out. As

6 our name and last name were called out, we would come

7 out through the door. In front there was a van of Fiat

8 make. The door was open. On the right-hand side was

9 Pavo Mucic and on the left was the driver, whose last

10 name was Buric.

11 Q. Did you enter the van?

12 JUDGE JAN: Of course he did. Of course he did.

13 MR. TURONE: Could you please go on in your account. What

14 happened?

15 A. And we sat in. They closed the door to the van. We

16 didn't know where we were going. I didn't know where

17 I was going. When they opened up the door, I found

18 myself at Musala, in front of the Sports Hall. Mucic

19 got out, opened the door and we entered the Sports Hall,

20 where we were put in locker rooms. There were rooms

21 there, like locker rooms.

22 Q. Was Mr. Mucic sitting in the front of this van during the

23 drive?

24 A. Yes, he did.

25 Q. Did he say anything before the drive or during the drive

Page 5156

1 or right after arriving?

2 A. No, he didn't say anything during the drive. The front

3 and the back of this van had a partition. There was a

4 glass partition, so we couldn't hear each other, and

5 even if he was talking something we wouldn't be able to

6 hear him.

7 Q. All right. So when were you released from any kind of

8 detention?

9 A. I was released on 31st August from any kind of

10 detention. In fact, I was released from Musala.

11 Q. And did you receive a release document on that day,

12 August 30th?

13 A. I did receive a document saying that I was being

14 released from detention. Some 30 -- 30 something

15 prisoners were called out and ones were being assigned

16 to go to Brdjani and the other group was going to go to

17 another village, and when my turn came, and Mucic was

18 there, I told him: "Mr. Pavo, I don't want to go to Donje

19 Selo". There was part of Konjic called Varda. He took

20 the piece of paper and said: "What street?" I said:

21 "Maksim Kujundzic". He said: "Fuck Maksim Kujundzic.

22 Go on foot", and I stayed there then. That was the

23 last time I saw Pavo during my stay in camp.

24 Q. Did the release document -- was the release document

25 given to you by whom?

Page 5157

1 A. Pavo Mucic gave it to me and in his hand, in his own

2 handwriting, he wrote down "Maksim Kujundzic".

3 Q. Which was the address you gave him?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. May I ask the assistance of the usher to show a document

6 to the witness which might be marked for identification,

7 I believe with number 159, please. We have copies for

8 your Honours. Defence lawyers have already this

9 document. (Handed).

10 Can you see the document, Mr. Ninkovic? Can you

11 identify this document?

12 A. Yes, I do see it. That's the document.

13 Q. The document you received by Mr. Mucic?

14 A. Yes, the document I received from Mr. Mucic and what it

15 says here:

16 "Maksim K, 28 Konjic".

17 That is what he wrote down in his own handwriting.

18 Q. You can see that your year of birth here is indicated as

19 1955. Is that a mistake?

20 A. Yes, that is an error, because I was born in 1959.

21 There in the Red Cross registration card the birth date

22 is correct.

23 Q. Yes. So, your Honours, I would tender this document for

24 admission and --

25 JUDGE JAN: But one is not a translation of the other. It

Page 5158

1 is a different format altogether. This is a different

2 translation -- different document.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

4 JUDGE JAN: The formats are different entirely.

5 MR. TURONE: The document was probably cut badly, because

6 there is also this part.

7 JUDGE JAN: The date of birth is right on top. I'm not

8 sure if the same document has been translated.

9 MR. TURONE: The upper part of the photocopy actually is

10 wrong. Probably we should eliminate this first part,

11 which is part of another document, which is the Red

12 Cross document. The real document is this one.

13 JUDGE JAN: This is not a translation of this one.

14 MR. TURONE: The translation is a translation of this one.

15 Again I see there is the same mistake of the document of

16 yesterday. There is "her" instead of "his". We will

17 also correct this in a better translation, your

18 Honours. So we tender this for admission, Exhibit 159,

19 and that is the end of my examination-in-chief, your

20 Honours. Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. I don't think I need call for

22 any cross-examination now, since we are breaking for 30

23 minutes. We will have our 30 minutes break. When we

24 return, then we'll start cross-examination.

25 (11.30 am)

Page 5159

1 (Short break)

2 (12.00)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Will you please invite the witness?

4 Is the Defence sure about its cross-examination

5 pattern? Is there anything to cross-examine?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honour, the Defence

7 of Zejnil Delalic has no questions to put to this

8 witness.

9 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the Defence

10 of Zdravko Mucic has no questions for the witness.

11 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, the Defence

12 of Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions for the witness.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: And we have no questions, your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought as much. They had a

15 different impression. Where is the witness so that we

16 will formally tell him he is discharged

17 (Witness re-enters court)

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind him he is on his oath.

19 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you that you are still testifying

20 under oath?

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It seems there is no cross-examination

23 for him and there is consequently no re-examination,

24 except you need him for other things. You don't need

25 him.

Page 5160

1 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's have your next witness, if you

3 have any.

4 (Witness withdrew from court)

5 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we have to ask for a recess

6 because we are not yet ready with our next witness. We

7 should respectfully ask your Honours to allow us to

8 bring our next witness after the lunch break, because we

9 are not yet ready for the next witness.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Is this a trick on you by the Defence

11 or what? I think it makes life easier for everyone.

12 So we will have to recess until 2.30.

13 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Tribunal will now adjourn until

15 2.30.

16 (12.10 pm)

17 (Luncheon adjournment)









Page 5161

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen:

3 are you now ready with your witness?

4 MS. McHENRY: Yes, we are ready. I will point out that

5 this is a protected witness and so the courtroom needs

6 to be set up. The witness is Mr. D.

7 (Witness enters court)

8 Witness D (sworn)

9 Examined by Ms McHenry

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Can we have appearances please?

11 MS. McHENRY: For the Prosecution, your Honour, I am Teresa

12 McHenry and I am here with co-counsel, Mr. Giuliano

13 Turone and our case manager, Miss Elles van

14 Dusschoten.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Defence, please.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I'm Edina

17 Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. With

18 me is my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor of law

19 from Canada.

20 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am Zeljko

21 Olujic, attorney from Croatia, Defence Counsel for

22 Mr. Pavo Mucic. With me is my colleague Michael

23 Greaves, lawyer from the United Kingdom of Great Britain

24 and Northern Ireland.

25 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I am Salih

Page 5162

1 Karabdic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. My

2 co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston,

3 Texas.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, your Honours. I am John

5 Ackerman. I am representing Mr. Esad Landzo. My

6 co-counsel is Miss Cynthia McMurrey from the United

7 States.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. You may proceed

9 with your witness.

10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Sir, am I correct that you have

11 requested protective measures such that your identity

12 and your face not be revealed to the public or the

13 media?

14 A. (In interpretation): It is correct that I asked for

15 protective measures so that my identity should not be

16 disclosed.

17 Q. Do you understand that you will be known then here today

18 as Mr. D?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to show the witness a piece

21 of paper and, sir, I ask you to look at that and tell --

22 confirm that this is, in fact, your name?

23 A. Yes, that is my name.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, do you understand that if you are

25 asked something and you believe the answer to the

Page 5163

1 question may tend to reveal your identity, you may

2 request the judges to give your answer in private

3 session? Do you understand that?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Sir, are you originally from Konjic?

6 A. Yes, I am from Konjic.

7 Q. What is your ethnic background, sir?

8 A. I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, by nationality

9 a Croat.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Mr.s McHenry, let the witness be more

11 composed so that he wouldn't move about too much, not to

12 get into the problems of being disclosed. Let's get

13 the technical people and tell them to deface, to take

14 off his picture.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Actually what I'm asking is that he doesn't

16 move too much so that the facial distortion should be

17 well done, because if he moves there's a risk of him

18 being seen.

19 MS. McHENRY: I see. Sir, do you understand that it's

20 helpful if you -- you don't have to be as still as a

21 statue, but if in general you don't move back and forth,

22 especially forward and back very much.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Could the permanent defacement of his

24 face be made so that as long as it's within that

25 perimeter it won't affect it, because he is not moving

Page 5164

1 out of that area. That's possible? All they need to

2 do is to deface the photograph.

3 MS. McHENRY: Okay. I would ask that the witness'

4 microphone be turned on and I'll advise your Honours

5 that during my examination-in-chief I'm going to request

6 that we go into private session on two separate

7 occasions, and this is now the first occasion that

8 I would be requesting that we go into private session to

9 ask a few questions about his background.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Inform them to get into private

11 session.

12 (In closed session)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 5165

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (In open session)

12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. We are now back in public

13 session. Sir, can you tell us whether or not you

14 returned to the Konjic area some time in May of 1992?

15 A. I cannot recall the date, but I think it was at the end

16 of May in 1992. The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina had

17 already started and with my wife I decided to transfer

18 her from Mostar to Konjic or, to be more precise, a part

19 of Konjic known as Buturovic Polje, where I was born.

20 Q. Sir, you indicate that you believe it was towards the

21 end of May. Do you know whether or not you returned to

22 Konjic before or after the attack on Bradina?

23 A. I came to Konjic the day the operation in Bradina

24 ended. Actually that was the day I arrived in

25 Ostrozac. That is 14 kms from Konjic and I stopped

Page 5166

1 there to convey to an inhabitant of the place some

2 greetings from some people in Mostar. It was the

3 afternoon and some units or groups of soldiers were

4 already coming from the area where the military

5 operations were being conducted, that is the area of

6 Bradina.

7 Q. Sir, upon returning to Konjic, did you report to any

8 kind of political or military authority?

9 A. In order to get out of Mostar I had to have a special

10 written permit from the by then already formed Croatian

11 Defence Council. Following the instructions that

12 I received when I was given this permit, my task was to

13 report to the Croatian Defence Council in Konjic.

14 Q. Sir, may I confirm that the Croatian Defence Council is

15 commonly known as the HVO?

16 A. Yes, exactly. That is the abbreviation HVO.

17 Q. Can you please tell us exactly what happened when you

18 report reported to the HVO?

19 A. I was also told in Mostar that I had to go back to

20 Mostar, because I was a citizen of Mostar, which I did

21 not deny, of course, but when I arrived in Konjic with

22 this permit, I went to the HVO and I reported to them,

23 and I then said that I had to go back to Mostar.

24 However, if I am unable to get into Mostar because of

25 the constant shelling of the only way in and out of

Page 5167

1 Mostar, I would come back to Konjic again. That was

2 normal. That is for people to be going back and forth

3 several times. So that maybe the second or third day

4 after that I went back in the direction of Mostar, but

5 the road, the Mostar-Goranci road, was under constant

6 artillery fire, so that I did not enter the city and

7 I went back to Konjic. That is what I told the people

8 in the HVO and I said if they felt that I could join in

9 the defence ranks there, that I was ready to do that.

10 There was a man there -- I think but I'm not sure

11 that his name was Zovko or something like that -- who

12 told me that if I stayed I would be welcome, and that

13 I should report to Goran Lokas. I asked what was this

14 man doing, this Goran Lokas, but I knew him, because

15 while I was working in the police, he too was head of

16 department. Actually at that time he was known as the

17 secretary of the Municipal Secretariat for Internal

18 Affairs, as it was called then, and I said that I had

19 nothing against reporting to him, thinking that he was

20 working in a body of the Internal Affairs Secretariat.

21 But he added that he was now working in the Military

22 Investigating Commission.

23 I agreed, and the next day I went to Konjic,

24 because in the meantime I had been staying at Buturovic

25 Polje, which is a local community belonging to the

Page 5168

1 municipality of Konjic, an area that I originated from,

2 where I was actually born.

3 The next day -- I can't remember the date exactly,

4 but this was probably the end of day -- I went to the

5 HVO to report to Goran Lokas. They told me that

6 Mr. Goran Lokas had had a traffic accident -- was

7 involved in a traffic accident the day before and that

8 I should come on another day to report to Ivica

9 Azinovic. This was somebody I did not know and I

10 didn't enquire either what his post was, but the next

11 day I was informed through my wife's sister who lives in

12 Donje Selo, or she used to live in Donje Selo -- this is

13 in the immediate vicinity of Konjic -- and she told me

14 that Miroslav Stenek had come to see her looking for me

15 and that I should report to the HVO.

16 Of course, the next day I went to the HVO. They

17 told me I should wait for Mr. Ivica Azinovic. About

18 midday of that day Ivica Azinovic appeared. Actually at

19 the very entrance to the HVO premises a security man

20 told me: "Here is Mr. Ivica Azinovic". When I addressed

21 him, as far as I can recall, without even entering his

22 office, or maybe he was still exchanging a few words

23 with someone else at the time -- I'm not sure -- he

24 turned around and told me to follow him. I did and in

25 the courtyard of the building a vehicle was waiting and

Page 5169

1 a driver, who had actually driven him there. He told

2 me to sit down and that is how we left, without telling

3 me where we were going or what we were going to do.

4 Sitting in the car, I asked him: "And where are we

5 going now?", and he told me that we were going to see

6 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I went to secondary school with

7 Zejnil Delalic. I wasn't aware that he was there at

8 that time, but I didn't find anything wrong with going

9 to see him. So that in the meantime from the HVO

10 premises to the house owned by Mr. Zejnil Delalic it took

11 us a couple of minutes to get there only.

12 We entered a large room in his house. Of course,

13 as I knew Mr. Delalic, there was no need for any

14 introductions by Mr. Azinovic, but when we entered, he

15 said that we had come. There were some other people

16 there, with whom I shook hands, but who I did not know

17 at the time. I think I didn't know any one of them

18 then. I know that Mr. Delalic introduced me. He said:

19 "This is ..."

20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness has spoken his name.

21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, if you will just -- may we go into

22 private session for one minute, your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let's go into private

24 session.

25 (In closed session)

Page 5170

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (In open session)

9 Q. In addition to introducing you to the other people

10 by name, did Mr. Delalic say anything about what your

11 duties were going to be?

12 A. No. I was not offered to sit down but I saw that they

13 were busy with something. He said -- as far as I can

14 recall now the contents of what he said: "This person

15 will continue to work in the Military Investigative

16 Commission in Celebici". I think that he even said --

17 I think that he even told what part of the job I was

18 going to do there.

19 MS. McHENRY: Please continue, sir.

20 A. I don't recall that there were any details spelled out

21 about this. Maybe I asked whether I was going to start

22 doing this the next day or something like that, and he

23 said that Goran Lokas was not around, that he had a car

24 accident, and that it would be desirable if I started on

25 that job the very next day.

Page 5171

1 If I msy answer a question in private, please?


3 MS. McHENRY: Yes, sir

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We want to get into private session

5 MS. McHENRY: Please hold on and we’ll go into private

6 session

7 (In closed session)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

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Page 5172

1 (redacted)

2 (In open session)

3 Q. Now we are in public session again. Sir, at this time

4 what did you understand Mr. Delalic's position to be?

5 A. At that time my understanding was that Mr. Delalic was

6 either in some kind of headquarters or some kind of

7 commander who is supposed to give this agreement.

8 Q. Okay. What happened after you were told by Mr. Delalic

9 about what kind of work you would be doing? Did you, in

10 fact, then start working at the Celebici camp?

11 A. Yes. The very next day I went to Celebici and joined

12 this group. Among them were Miro Stenek.

13 Q. Sir, I am not going to ask you the names now. I will

14 ask that later in private session. Can you just tell

15 us now, sir, so that the judges will have an overview,

16 can you tell me approximately when it was that you

17 stopped working at Celebici camp and I'm not asking for

18 any details about why you stopped. I just wonder if

19 you can tell us approximately when it was you stopped

20 working at Celebici Camp?

21 A. Yes. I was going to say, without mentioning all the

22 names -- what I wanted to say was that Stenek was there,

23 who was already working there, who was part of that

24 commission, so that with his assistance I received these

25 materials and I started working on them.

Page 5173

1 As far as your other question is concerned,

2 I think it was about a month, maybe even less.

3 Q. Without giving their names at this time, can you tell us

4 how many members of the Commission there were who worked

5 at the camp?

6 A. I think there were seven members of the Commission.

7 Q. Okay. During the time that you were working at the

8 camp how often did you go to the prison?

9 A. In fact, I went there every day. The Military

10 Investigative Commission worked every day from 0800

11 hours until 1800 hours or maybe until 17:00 hours. I

12 don't know. Except for Saturdays and Sundays --

13 sorry. I think except for Sundays, I think.

14 Q. And in addition to the work that you just described

15 briefly in private session, did you also interrogate

16 some prisoners?

17 A. Yes. This was not frequent, but I was present on

18 several occasions to these questionings and I conducted

19 them.

20 Q. Do I understand you, sir, to indicate that you didn't

21 interrogate as many prisoners as the other persons on

22 the Commission, because you were also doing the other

23 work that you've already described?

24 A. Yes. Precisely.

25 Q. During the month or slightly less that you estimate you

Page 5174

1 worked there, are you able to estimate approximately how

2 many prisoners you yourself interrogated?

3 A. I don't know the exact number, but I think that there

4 were about ten, maybe more.

5 Q. Did I also understand you, sir, to indicate that at the

6 time you first went to Celebici some statements had

7 already been taken?

8 A. Yes, that is correct. The statements had already been

9 taken from a number of arrested persons, that is the

10 persons who were brought to the camp. Those were

11 mostly individuals arrested in the area of Donje Selo,

12 Pokojiste and some other villages in the area.

13 Q. Sir, when you started your work, how did you know what

14 to do? Was there a time that someone instructed you as

15 to how the Commission should work?

16 A. You see, when I took over this part of the job, which

17 I was told that I would be doing, as I knew how to do it

18 from before, I started working on it, but very soon --

19 I think it could have been 1st June of 1992 -- with the

20 Commission in the premises in which we worked we had a

21 meeting with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

22 Q. Where did this meeting occur?

23 A. The meeting was announced the day before and it was said

24 it was going to take place, and it did take place at the

25 premises of the building where we worked, and this

Page 5175

1 particular room was used as a dining hall.

2 Q. So do I understand you correctly that the meeting with

3 Mr. Delalic occurred in the dining room of the building

4 where you worked in the camp in Celebici?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And did the building where you worked -- did it have a

7 name? How was the building referred to?

8 A. I cannot recall what it was referred to as.

9 Q. Can you just describe generally where this building was

10 and what else was present in this building?

11 A. This building was to the left of the main gate. As you

12 came to the camp it would be to the left of the gate.

13 Q. Maybe it would be helpful -- was this building used for

14 administration, sir?

15 A. Probably during the former JNA time it was used for

16 administrative purposes, and in this case it was also

17 used as the administrative building, because this

18 Commission was housed there. The Commander of this

19 camp had an office there. That is how I was told that

20 this title was, the camp commander, Zdravko Mucic; his

21 deputy Hazim Delic, and there were some other rooms

22 there which I wasn't looking at. Maybe they belonged

23 to the persons who were -- who discharged guard duties.

24 Q. Okay. Sir, let's go back then to this meeting that

25 Mr. Delalic had in the administrative building. Can you

Page 5176

1 just please tell us were all the Commission members

2 there and what occurred during this meeting?

3 A. As far as I know, they were all there. Maybe somebody

4 was absent, but it seems to me that they were all

5 there. I know Mr. Mucic, the camp commander, and the

6 other members of the Commission. I don't know the

7 rest.

8 Q. Okay. Please tell us what happened during this

9 meeting, what occurred.

10 A. The meeting didn't last long. I know that at the very

11 beginning Mr. Delalic read out to us some kind of order,

12 which arrived by fax, or maybe some other way. I don't

13 know. He read out the title to whom this order was

14 directed. As far as I recall, the order was directed

15 to all commands and staffs except for the Cetnik ones.

16 That was approximately what it sounded like. I know

17 that he laughed a little bit when he read that. It

18 sounded a bit funny. The text was fairly short,

19 something about combat operations in the wider area and

20 the expectations of some combat operations, something to

21 do with the Cetnik attacks and things like that.

22 Q. Did Mr. Delalic indicate where this order came from, who

23 had issued it?

24 A. He said that he -- that this telegram was signed by --

25 I don't know what rank he read this person, but it said

Page 5177

1 Mate Sarlija, "Daidza".

2 Q. At this time did you know who this person was?

3 A. No. I had heard that for the first time then.

4 Q. Okay. With the usher's assistance I would like to show

5 you a document, sir. This document has previously been

6 shown to Defence Counsel. (Handed.) Am I correct that

7 this would be document 160?


9 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

10 A. I apologise. I need to use my glasses.

11 Q. Sir, I ask that you look at what has been marked for

12 identification purposes as Prosecution Exhibit 160, and

13 I ask if you recognise that document?

14 A. Yes. I think that this is the contents of this message

15 that was read by Mr. Delalic.

16 Q. Thank you. Sir, was there any other -- other than

17 reading this order, what was discussed during this

18 meeting with Mr. Delalic?

19 A. Then he came to what he actually came there for. It

20 was about how we were to proceed.

21 Q. When you say "we", do you mean how the Commission was

22 supposed to proceed?

23 A. Yes. It is about the Commission, because the goal --

24 the aim of this meeting was to -- the work of this

25 Commission, and before this meeting we had received in

Page 5178

1 the Commission a typed text, in fact, the categories

2 according to which all these prisoners were to be

3 distributed. At that time Mr. Delalic was explaining

4 these categories to us. As far as I can recall, he

5 said that he had worked out these categories so that

6 these prisoners could be classified according to the

7 documents that was available. I think that -- it seems

8 to me that there were nine categories.

9 Q. Okay. In addition to explaining the categories to you,

10 was anything else discussed? For instance, was there

11 any discussion about release documents or do you

12 remember anything else that was discussed about the work

13 of the Commission?

14 A. The discussion was about creating the materials for

15 analysis to sum up all the incriminating facts and all

16 the acts and that on the basis of that decisions on the

17 status could be made of these prisoners, and, of course,

18 the measures that were to be taken accordingly. I

19 don't know what else was discussed, but mostly about

20 these issues, that there were a lot of these prisoners,

21 that a lot of these materials were brought from the

22 field, that should the Commission find out that there

23 are weapons hidden in the field that was left behind

24 belonging to these prisoners, that the military police

25 were alerted in a timely fashion so that they could go

Page 5179

1 out there and recover them.

2 Q. Okay. Your Honours, I would ask to go into private

3 session again, because I think the next few questions

4 I may ask might tend to reveal the witness' identity?

5 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay. Let's go to private session.

6 (In closed session)

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Page 5180

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Page 5181

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19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (In open session)

23 Q. Sir, we are now back in public session. Mr. D, can you

24 tell us did you and the other members of the Commission

25 wear uniforms?

Page 5182

1 A. Yes. The Commission wore uniforms, but not always.

2 Q. Did the uniforms have insignia on them?

3 A. No-one at the time among the Commission members had any

4 insignia, as far as I can recall. I didn't have a

5 uniform for a long time, not for a long time, maybe a

6 couple of days, and I know that I took this uniform and

7 signed for it from Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I remember that.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know where the guards were from; in other

9 words, what group or entity they were from?

10 A. I really don't know who the guards belonged to.

11 I never saw any insignia, at least passing through there

12 I never saw any insignia on them, but, to be quite

13 frank, I didn't really look. I noticed only one guard,

14 that when speaking he had an Albanian accent. Then

15 I asked someone: "How come an Albanian is here?"

16 Somebody told me that he had served in the former JNA

17 there and that he had stayed on. He had joined the

18 forces that were placed in the position of defence.

19 Q. Okay. At this time can you just very briefly describe

20 what defence forces there were in Konjic at this time?

21 A. As far as I know, there was the essential. There was

22 the Territorial Defence, the TO, then the HVO.

23 However, at first there was the Patriotic League, the

24 HOS. I don't know. I would see this on the licence

25 plates of vehicles. At that time people would write

Page 5183

1 those plates out themselves and probably, seeing the TO

2 and the HVO, then others would put "HOS". I even saw

3 "MOS", probably the Muslim Armed Forces. I don't

4 know.

5 Q. With respect to the HOS, what did you understand the HOS

6 to stand for and who did you -- did you have any

7 information about where the members of the HOS that were

8 in Konjic, where they were from?

9 A. I don't know. I saw vehicles with this sign a couple

10 of times. I saw some young men who all came from the

11 territory of Konjic. They were all young men.

12 I can't say. I don't know where they had come from,

13 anywhere outside.

14 Q. Sir, going back now to the Celebici camp, what did you

15 understand concerning who the detainees were, and I'm

16 not asking their names; I'm asking if you could tell us

17 your understanding of how they came to be in the camp?

18 A. You see, when I got there, there were a lot of prisoners

19 there already. I saw these lists brought to us in the

20 Commission by Mr. Mucic and the members of the Commission

21 talked to Mr. Mucic, or if Mucic wasn't there, then it

22 was Delic, which people needed to be interviewed in the

23 course of that day, and of whom statements should be

24 taken. So that, looking at those lists -- I can't

25 remember now whether there was one list; I think there

Page 5184

1 were several lists, probably in the order in which they

2 were brought in or maybe from where they were brought

3 in. But they were not only military conscripts.

4 There were civilians there too. I saw some women on

5 the list. So I understood that this must be a prison

6 where persons were being brought in who had been

7 captured in the area of combat operations or in

8 connection with those combat operations.

9 Q. Sir, did you understand whether or not it was people who

10 had been captured because they were part of the combat

11 operations, or did you understand that all men from that

12 area were captured? Can you explain a little bit about

13 what you mean?

14 A. It was one thing what I understood and another what the

15 practice was. The practice was to bring in virtually

16 all males from the area of combat operations, and not

17 only men but women as well, but there were men who were

18 brought in who were outside the area of combat

19 operations.

20 Q. Sir, you mentioned previously the categories. Can you

21 please explain to us what you remember about the various

22 categories and how that worked?

23 A. You see, a lot of time has gone by. I can't remember

24 quite clearly the contents of all the categories, but

25 I think that the first category were men who had

Page 5185

1 participated in the combat operations under arms and if

2 there are documents to prove that they were armed in

3 those operations and that they had killed somebody in

4 those operations, that was the worst category.

5 The second category would be somewhat milder

6 cases, again armed men, captured in the area of combat

7 operations but for whom it had not been established that

8 they had killed anyone, which doesn't mean to say that

9 they indeed hadn't.

10 A third category was again something like that but

11 the difference I think was that they had given

12 themselves up, because these others hadn't surrendered,

13 according to the documentation at least, but that they

14 were forced to surrender.

15 Then came the other categories. They were milder

16 and, to tell you the truth, it was difficult to

17 differentiate because you didn't know how to classify

18 them into the sixth, fifth, seventh, and I didn't really

19 agree with those categories, but that was how it was.

20 Q. Can you then, sir, please explain how the categorisation

21 process worked. Who decided what category to put

22 someone in and what was the impact of somebody being in

23 a particular category?

24 A. Having read these things, and we would get together, the

25 Commission would get together from time to time, and

Page 5186

1 when I read the documents referring to a particular

2 person then I would read out the indications for each of

3 the categories and evaluate which category that person

4 belonged to. That was the duty of each member of the

5 Commission. When dealing with a case each one of us

6 had this list with the categories indicated to put down

7 on the file and each prisoner had a kind of file, where

8 everything related to that prisoner was placed. Then

9 on the file, on the outside, we would put "1st

10 category", "2nd" or "3rd", and I think that we even made

11 lists on the basis of those filed after they had been

12 classified.

13 Q. Then, sir, what, if anything, did you understand was

14 supposed to be the result, the import of someone being

15 put in the first category versus the seventh category,

16 for instance?

17 A. We understood this classification as meaning that

18 somebody who was deciding on the release of those

19 prisoners, and it was not up to us in the Commission to

20 decide on that, to group those files and thus provide

21 easier access to the documents and easier decision on

22 release, so that in my view, and probably in the view of

23 the others too -- at least that is what they said --

24 after the third or fourth category, if the persons were

25 already in the camp and after they had been

Page 5187

1 interrogated, they should have been released.

2 Q. Sir, you described these files that were created and

3 then the categorisation. What happened with these

4 documents in the files that were created?

5 A. I don't know what happened when we left, but while we

6 were there and when we said that the prisoners had been

7 categorised, I know that Mr. Mucic, when he came for the

8 lists, would say that the decision on who would be

9 released would be taken by commander Zejnil. That's

10 what he said, which is something we, of course, didn't

11 interfere with.

12 Q. Were any of these -- during the time you were working

13 there, were these documents or files -- were they ever

14 taken out of the Celebici Camp after you finished with

15 one, for example?

16 A. I didn't see that, nor was I able to see, but we

17 prepared them and grouped them together so that --

18 according to category, so that they could be carried out

19 because, as I said, we made a list, for example, of the

20 sixth group or the fourth group category and attached to

21 the list would be the appropriate files, so that the

22 person who was deciding could be able to give his

23 approval.

24 Q. Besides the Commission members who were creating these

25 files did you ever see anyone else in possession of

Page 5188

1 these files?

2 A. I did not see, nor was it -- were they accessible to

3 anyone else except Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delic. I don't know

4 any others. Whether Mucic, or at least that was how he

5 behaved in front of us, whether he took them to

6 Mr. Delalic, Zejnil Delalic, I didn't see him do that,

7 but if he said that the decision would be taken by

8 Mr. Delalic, then he probably took them to him, but

9 I cannot expressly assert that.

10 Q. Okay. Can you tell us how frequently you would see

11 Mr. Mucic in the camp when you were doing your work

12 there?

13 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know whether he was there

14 all day, but while I was working there, I think I saw

15 him every day, once or twice. I only know that on one

16 occasion somebody -- I don't know who -- was looking for

17 him and somebody said that he was busy in the field and

18 that he had stayed behind to have a good sleep, and that

19 he would come later, but I didn't notice his absence,

20 that he was absent.

21 Q. You mentioned briefly that Mr. Mucic had an office. Did

22 you yourself ever have occasion to go into his office

23 and on any of these occasions was he ever present in the

24 office?

25 A. I entered his office without knowing that it was his at

Page 5189

1 the very beginning of my work there. I asked for the

2 written documentation that had been brought in from the

3 field and which the Commission needed to study and

4 investigate further. Then they told me -- I think

5 somebody was with me then -- that this was to be found

6 in Mucic's office, and that was the room where we were

7 working -- in relation to the room in which we were

8 working, the third room from us. I think so, in a

9 series -- in a row of rooms. So then I found some

10 papers in a sack and Mr. Mucic was there too, and he told

11 me: "Here you are. This is it". I would take the

12 papers from there and we would examine the papers, see

13 what we needed for our further work.

14 Q. Sir, how was it that prisoners were brought to the

15 administration building for interrogation and who

16 decided they should be interrogated; in other words,

17 would the Commission members decide themselves and then

18 go out and ask for certain prisoners, or how did that --

19 can you explain how that worked?

20 A. I said at the beginning that we received the lists from

21 Mr. Mucic and then the Commission would write out the

22 names of people they needed to interview, indicating the

23 names of the prisoners that needed to be brought in for

24 an interview. This list would be given to Mr. Mucic or

25 his deputy, Delic, and as far as I know it was mostly

Page 5190

1 Delic who did this, and I think Mucic said something to

2 that effect, that a list needed to be made of who we

3 needed and we should give that list to Mr. Delic and he

4 would proceed further. Since there were several

5 Commission members, several prisoners would be brought

6 in. I think about ten people at a time were being

7 prepared, were ready for this interview. None of the

8 commissions -- at least I didn't see them -- nor did

9 I ever go any further than that building. I saw --

10 there was frequent shooting there in that camp and when

11 we were working through the window, through the glass

12 panes, one could see that part of the camp from where

13 the prisoners were being brought, and on a couple of

14 occasions I saw several people lined up against the

15 concrete supporting wall. They were facing the wall

16 with their hands raised against the wall. I saw Delic

17 there. He always carried a rifle with him on the

18 ready, so to speak. They would fire above the heads of

19 those people bursts of fire. Everybody could see

20 this. All the members of the Commission could see

21 this.

22 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think we will have a break now and

23 come back at 4.30.

24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.

25 (4.00 pm)

Page 5191

1 (Short break)

2 (4.30 pm)

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. I see you are standing.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would like to raise a matter

5 before we continue, if I could have the indulgence of

6 the court to do that?

7 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. What is the matter about?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: It has to do -- I think this witness has

9 either little or nothing to do with regard to my client,

10 but I have been listening and have become concerned with

11 a matter which may be better taken up with the witness

12 not here. I'll leave that to the discretion of your

13 Honours, but I think it might be better for the witness

14 to withdraw for a moment while I raise this issue. I'm

15 doing it more in the nature of amicus curiae than as an

16 advocate in this case. I think it's something that

17 should be brought to the court's attention and the

18 attention of the Prosecutor but I am concerned that it

19 maybe ought not to be done in the presence of the

20 witness.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: You can lead him into the witness room

22 for a few minutes:

23 (Witness withdraws from court).

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Conditionally it might be better if we are in

25 closed session, private session.

Page 5192

1 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, I think so. Private session.

2 Inform the technicians

3 (In closed session).

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(Hearing adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning)