1 Thursday, 17th July 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 (In open session)

4 Mr. D (continued)

5 Examined by Ms. McHenry

6 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

7 Can we have the appearances first?

8 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, your Honours. I am Teresa

9 McHenry for the Office of the Prosecutor with my

10 co-counsel Giuliano Turone and our case manager, Ms.

11 Elles van Dusschoten. Thank you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Defence appearances, please.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

14 Honours. I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for

15 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. My co-counsel is my colleague,

16 Eugene O'Sullivan, Professor from Canada.

17 MR. OLUJIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

18 Honours. I am Zejnil Olujic, Defence Counsel for

19 Mr. Zdravko Mucic. My co-counsel is Mr. Michael Greaves,

20 attorney from United Kingdom of Great Britain and

21 Northern Ireland.

22 MR. KARABDIC (in interpretation): Good morning, your

23 Honours. I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from

24 Sarajevo. I am attorney for Mr. Hazim Delic. My

25 co-counsel is Mr. Tom Moran, attorney from Houston Texas.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours. I am John

2 Ackerman, attorney for Esad Landzo. My co-counsel is

3 Cynthia McMurrey from the United States.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, what is the position with

5 your witness before we call him in?

6 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I would just ask to go into

7 private session.

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: With respect to the observation made

9 by Mr. Ackerman yesterday?

10 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour. I'm ready to respond and

11 amplify the remarks I made yesterday, but I would ask

12 that we do so in private session.

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Let's do that before we call in the

14 witness. Let's get into private session.

15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

16 (In closed session)

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7 (In open session)

8 JUDGE JAN: Ms. McHenry, before the witness comes, what is

9 the date of this report?

10 MS. McHENRY: The copy of the report is undated. I believe

11 the witness will indicate that it was at the end of

12 June.

13 JUDGE JAN: Whenever they file the report, I am sure they

14 put on the date on which it has been compiled, or is it

15 unusual?

16 MS. McHENRY: I think it's unusual.

17 JUDGE JAN: I think there as an error in the transcript.

18 I was not talking about Dayton. I was talking about

19 the date on which it has been compiled.

20 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Not Dayton Agreement.

21 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness that he is

22 still under oath.

23 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you that you are

24 still testifying under oath. No. No. I am just

25 reminding you that you are testifying under oath.

1 A. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, Ms. McHenry. You can continue.

3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

4 Good morning, Mr. D?

5 A. Good morning.

6 Q. Sir, you mentioned previously that there were women in

7 the camp. Can you tell us, please, how you know there

8 were women at the camp, and if you know how many there

9 were?

10 A. Yes. I saw on the list -- I think there were five

11 women. I could be almost certain, but the statements

12 of these women I never saw, and the entire time we were

13 there I was interested within the Commission about their

14 status, but nobody was providing any answer. They said

15 that Gordana Cecez had to stay there because there was

16 information from the field that her husband was armed

17 and hiding in the vicinity of Konjic. I don't know

18 about the other women. There was a wife of Rajko

19 Dordic, who was the Commander in Bradina, and I think

20 she was there. After a period of time I think that

21 I suggested that these women be released. If an

22 interview with Gordana Cecez was necessary, it should be

23 conducted and the information gained from it and I think

24 that I even put in information into two reports

25 suggesting the release of these women. I found this

1 information from the files -- from those lists. I

2 don't know when they were released. I don't know when

3 these two women were released, and I think that they

4 probably were released. How many were left there

5 thereafter I also cannot say with certainty. I don't

6 know if this Gordana still remained there. I don't

7 know that exactly.

8 Q. Sir, did I understand you correctly that as part of the

9 analysis and categorisation the Commission sometimes

10 recommended certain prisoners for release and certain

11 people recommended to be kept for further investigation

12 or prosecution?

13 A. You see, when Mr. Zejnil was in the meeting with us I had

14 a duty to put together an analysis as soon as possible,

15 an analysis of all the data that we had gathered thus

16 far, and I did that as soon as I could, based on the

17 statements and other information that the Commission had

18 available, and I compiled a report on behalf of the

19 Commission, which contents are something like this.

20 I'm not going to go at any length into it, but as

21 follows.

22 How these people, those Serbs in the area of

23 Bradina and wider in the area of Konjic were arming

24 themselves; where did the weapons come from; who was

25 giving it to them; what types of weapons; when it was

1 transported to Bradina and other locations around

2 Konjic; how it was distributed; to whom it was

3 distributed; and who were the persons from the Konjic

4 area who took part in this.

5 Perhaps this report contains -- I can't recall now

6 -- some ten persons who were in the camp. Some of the

7 persons in the report were not in the camp, because they

8 had fled to the Borci Lake area before these combat

9 operations, but from it all it could be -- and this is

10 my feeling and the feeling of this Commission -- that

11 criminal charges could be filed against those persons

12 for inciting the armed rebellion pursuant to the laws of

13 the former Yugoslavia. This is all that was incumbent

14 upon us to decide.

15 Q. Do you know if any of the prisoners that were

16 categorised in the lowest categories, meaning the least

17 serious categories, were released during the time you

18 were working at the camp?

19 A. To be honest with you, I don't have information,

20 feed-back who was released from the camp on that

21 basis. Whatever I found out was by accident. I did

22 not perceive any communication between the Commission

23 and anybody else. It would be logical to release

24 people. How many people were released I could only

25 judge, not only myself but the Commission, by certain

1 lists that were revised lists, so that we could see that

2 these people had been released, but at that time another

3 incident took place. They started off with the lower

4 categories and I don't know on whose orders or whose

5 decision this was, were transferred to Konjic, to the

6 premises of the school and sports centre: I'm speaking

7 the truth when I say that I don't know why this happened

8 and who demand this had or requested this. I only

9 heard about that, in fact, since Konjic town was under

10 constant shelling and fire and attacks, that there was

11 shelling and a number of civilians were killed and there

12 were all kinds of horrors, but among others this school

13 centre had been shelled because it was very exposed and

14 ten or more of these prisoners were killed on that

15 occasion. It was a real massacre.

16 Q. Sir, you indicated that when you were working, you could

17 see from your office or the office from which you were

18 working how the prisoners waited for you. Did you ever

19 see any prisoners with their hands tied?

20 A. Yes, I sat in an office, because there were not many

21 such offices where people who were constantly conducting

22 this interview where they were working. Then when

23 I would come in I would see that some were tied.

24 Sometimes I would see it, but I know that, for instance,

25 Zara Mrkajic was brought into this office with his hands

1 tied, and this Zara Mrkajic was very important for the

2 work and for the interviews that this Commission

3 conducted, because, as one of the wealthier people in

4 Bradina, he owned cafes. He organised the supply of

5 arms and transportation of arms to Bradina, and as far

6 as I can recall, this prisoner was brought in by

7 Mr. Hazim Delic and -- you see, a person has to be

8 prepared. He has to be made relaxed so he could talk,

9 so that he could be clear when he talks. This could be

10 seen. I joined in this conversation, this interview,

11 and so we reacted. We said: "Why is he being tied?" ,

12 and very insolently he said it's none of our business.

13 First a colleague said this. So it was a bit insulting

14 but that's not important really. He would not untie

15 him. We did it subsequently.

16 Q. Was it a loose tie or a tight tie, or can you please

17 just tell us what, if anything, you observed about the

18 manner or the effect that the hands being tied had on

19 Mr. Mrkajic?

20 A. It was a rope. You could see that the blood

21 circulation had been interrupted by this rope.

22 Afterwards his hands shook and he moved them -- his

23 hands about for the blood to start circulating normally

24 again.

25 Q. What happened after this conversation that you had with

1 Mr. Delic about the prisoner's hands being tied?

2 A. After that I can't say that I saw other people tied,

3 with hands tied. Maybe there were others, but

4 I personally did not observe them. Mrkajic was brought

5 in again, another time, and that time his hands were not

6 tied, but while we were -- while we told Zara Mrkajic to

7 sit down on a chair -- I don't know -- I think Mr. Delic

8 was saying things to him. I can't remember exactly

9 what he was saying. Even though Commission members

10 were there and he had other duties, but still he was

11 saying these things to him. I don't know why. I had

12 my back turned towards the door and I was looking

13 towards the window. That was how we were sitting, and

14 I suddenly heard a shot. Now what is that? So I was

15 shocked, I was startled. When I turned around I think

16 the door was open and I saw Hazim. I didn't see him

17 fire the shot, though he always carried a rifle that was

18 on the ready, but I didn't dare ask him, to tell you the

19 truth, but I drew the conclusion that it was him.

20 Sorry. I don't know what the purpose of this was, if

21 it was him or somebody else, and I can't assert that

22 with any certainty, but whoever did it, the aim must

23 have been intimidation, to intimidate us, and we know

24 that the prisoners were intimidated as well.

25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object to this

1 because it calls for all kinds of speculation.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I think it's fairer you do not

3 interrupt free-flowing evidence. At the end you will

4 see where it's going. It's easier to know what is

5 intended.

6 MS. McHENRY: Sir, can you tell me, the shot that was fired,

7 could you tell if it was inside the building, if it was

8 close to the room where you were in or if it was outside

9 the camp, or were you able to ascertain anything about

10 that?

11 A. It was in the corridor of the building in which we were

12 working, and I wish to respond to Defence Counsel that

13 these are not insinuations under any circumstances.

14 I have no reason, because I don't know any of them

15 except Mr. Delalic, with whom I went to school, so that

16 I have no need to make any insinuations. Dear

17 gentlemen, your Honours, I did not come to falsely

18 testify. If I may make this small digression, I have

19 plenty of patience. I feel honoured to report to this

20 honourable Tribunal about all the things that were

21 happening there and the suffering that went on. Thank

22 you.

23 Q. Thank you, sir. Besides what you have already

24 testified, did you ever see anything or receive any

25 information from anyone working in the camp indicating

1 that prisoners were being mistreated?

2 A. Well, you see, I heard many conversations among the

3 members of the Commission. I accepted this job in

4 order to accomplish it honourably. Whatever I was told

5 by Mr. Zejnil Delalic or somebody else, possibly one of

6 the people who was in command, to do something with

7 honour, I would do it, but hearing stories about the

8 mistreatment of prisoners, I started thinking how I

9 could resist, because I saw that we didn't have a

10 Commission leader to whom we could complain.

11 Then I saw something else. One morning when we

12 had started working already -- I can't remember the

13 date, because this wasn't a very long period of time

14 that was involved. There were several men from among

15 the Commission members who were walking around waiting

16 for somebody to be brought in to be interviewed. In

17 the meantime there was some kind of a panic. I didn't

18 know what was happening. I went out into the

19 corridor. I saw people gathering, bringing something

20 then and then I asked "what is it". I can't remember

21 who it was, which member of the Commission, was it

22 Rizvic or Sacir Pajic. I don't know. He said that

23 one of the prisoners had been beaten up and I think in

24 the neighbouring room where we dined -- they dined, he

25 had been brought in. I went back to the office where

1 I was working and there were several more of us there,

2 and we thought that we needed to check which of the

3 prisoners it was, who had done it and why they had done

4 it. In the meantime somebody said -- one could feel

5 that there was an attempt to cover this whole thing up

6 and while we were talking about this a car drove up --

7 I think it was a jeep -- with a driver and Mr. Delalic

8 was there. They passed in front of the window where we

9 were. They parked the vehicle and they entered the

10 building. We went to see that prisoner. We entered

11 the room and I saw that the man was in a very bad

12 condition. He was just moaning. He was in a

13 crouching position and some people were there whom I

14 didn't know, probably the guards. In the meantime a

15 doctor appeared. Who had called him, Delic or Mr. Mucic

16 or somebody else, I don't know. So I went out. The

17 doctor examined him and later I learned that he had been

18 transferred to the hospital, that he had severe injuries

19 of the lung and that his life was at risk. Where

20 Mr. Delalic went at that moment I don't know, which room

21 he entered. I would have liked to have met him,

22 because I could have asked him what had happened.

23 I was free to ask him, but I don't know where he went.

24 Q. Do you know the first or the last or the nickname of

25 this prisoner who had been reportedly beaten?

1 A. Yes. I didn't finish the answer to your first

2 question. I was going to say that. I asked what his

3 name was. Nobody seemed to know. "Is he on the

4 list? Where does he come from?" Nobody seemed to

5 know. Only then the people in the Commission checked

6 and said that it was Zeljko Klimenta, known as Keljo,

7 that he was a man from Konjic, that he had a cafe there

8 near the petrol station at the entrance to Konjic, and

9 nothing else: why he had been captured, why he had been

10 brought in I did not learn.

11 Q. Sir, you indicated that on this day you did not have the

12 opportunity to talk with Mr. Delalic. During the time

13 that you were working at Celebici did you ever attempt

14 to contact Mr. Delalic either personally or over the

15 telephone?

16 A. You see, I remember telephoning. Twice I asked and

17 I was given his number and I called Mr. Zejnil twice and

18 on both occasions a woman answered and said that the

19 Commander was in the field. I just introduced

20 myself. I said who I was and what I was and my

21 intention was to convey some things to him, things

22 I knew, but as I didn't succeed then, why I didn't

23 insist and try more often, I wish to explain.

24 Listening to these stories about the mistreatment of

25 prisoners, one morning or rather on more than one

1 occasion I was met by a typist. I think her name was

2 Ismeta Posder. I am not quite sure about the

3 surname. A skinny woman. She was from Celebici by

4 birth. Maybe she lived there too. As the weather was

5 fine, it was summer time, and I would come quite early

6 to work and she would offer me a cup of coffee, and she

7 was making coffee anyway for us. She complained to me

8 then that they were mistreating prisoners at night, that

9 women were being raped. I was shocked, and when she

10 said that the guards had boasted of having raped

11 somebody last night -- you see, they had raped this

12 Gorza woman, Gordana Cecez and some others, and she was

13 horrified, having heard of these cases. I said to her:

14 "We should tell this to Mr. Delalic" and she said that

15 she knew Delalic and that she would convey this to

16 him. In this connection she referred most often to

17 Mr. Delic. Maybe she knew him from before or better

18 than me, but without specifying exactly what he had done

19 and what other guards may have done.

20 Q. Sir, do you know if any prisoners died at the camp?

21 A. I don't know in which buildings those prisoners were and

22 where they had been brought from, but one day I noticed

23 that there were several prisoners in a building just in

24 front of the building where we were working. I think

25 it must have been a break. We were having lunch or

1 something. I can't remember. Anyway, I was in front

2 of the building and some other members of the

3 Commission. Somebody said that the father of Zarko

4 Mrkajic had died in that building. His name did figure

5 on the list but I didn't know that it was his father.

6 I could see from the data on the list that he was an old

7 man. Somebody had opened the door of that building.

8 They were going in and coming out, and I saw somebody

9 kneeling next to him, but I didn't enter. I saw this

10 from afar. Afterwards they told me that it was his

11 other son. So I think I found him on that list too,

12 because there are a lot of people of the same surname,

13 Mrkajic, so you couldn't link them all together, the

14 relationships among them. Logically the Commission

15 should have, with the assistance of a doctor and other

16 experts, established the cause of death, but the

17 Commission was informed by someone that this Mrkajic had

18 died of natural causes, that he suffered from

19 diabetes. He probably didn't receive medicine or

20 something else. I suppose I can assume that, but I

21 don't know.

22 Q. Do you know anything about the normal procedure, whether

23 or not -- what the procedure was if a prisoner died, if

24 there was a medical certificate, or investigations? Do

25 you know how that worked?

1 A. You have put to me a very good question, a question that

2 we kept asking ourselves when we were there. "What are

3 we to do if a prisoner dies of natural or non-natural

4 causes?" People would wink at one another and say:

5 "Don't ask such a question". To tell you the truth,

6 I was horrified, and then I said: "Can we fight against

7 evil by resorting to the same kind of evil? No". Then

8 in the Commission again I said that if we learned of

9 somebody's death we would have to -- we need to find out

10 about the death certificate and that sort of thing, and

11 nobody knew the answers. Then it was not just me but

12 all the other members of the Commission could see this

13 lady. Her name was Jasna Dzumhur. When we saw her in

14 the corridor of the building, of course we said "Hello",

15 as we knew each other. It was wartime. We enquired

16 about family members and so on, which was quite

17 normal. Then I asked her what she was doing there,

18 assuming she knew what I was doing in the Commission.

19 She said that she had come to take over a corpse. Then

20 I said: "Well, Mrs. Jasna, how come the Commission knows

21 nothing about it?" She said: "Why should you know

22 anyway?" She was angry and she just marched off.

23 I hadn't insulted her in any way. "Why don't you kill

24 them?", she said. I conveyed this to the Commission

25 and all the Commission members just shrugged their

1 shoulders. Who had died on that occasion? What kind

2 of certificate had been given? Who had established the

3 causes of death? That was absolutely unknown to me and

4 the Commission members; at least I didn't hear anything

5 from the Commission members, and I know that everyone

6 was astounded. Maybe she came more often. I saw her

7 car sometimes but I didn't see her in person, but they

8 said that she had the authority to take over or to take

9 care of the people who died or who had been killed. I

10 don't know what the name of this position she held was,

11 but later I met her on several occasions, when I had

12 abandoned the Commission, almost every other day when

13 I continued my duties in the military police, and we

14 would exchange a few words often. Afterwards

15 I referred to this and her answer always was that she

16 had informed Mr. Delalic about everything. I do not

17 know whether that was so. It was not up to me to

18 verify this, but I said that that was not correct, and

19 that the Prosecution should be established to do its

20 work properly.

21 Q. Sir, you mentioned -- may I ask you whether or not with

22 respect to any particular detainees, whether or not in

23 addition to any analytical work that may have been done,

24 did you ever have any conversations with anyone in the

25 camp concerning why a particular detainee was being kept

1 in the camp or something like that?

2 A. You see, I had already decided that I had to do

3 something, because I cannot continue this battle that

4 I was waging with my very self to watch these people and

5 to wait for somebody to kill me or not to let me have

6 lunch, as Mr. Hazim Delic wouldn't allow me when it was

7 Bajram, because he told me that I couldn't eat.

8 Probably according to his criteria I hadn't deserved it

9 and thank God that I didn't meet his criteria, though it

10 was an honour for me to sit with my colleagues on the

11 occasion of Bajram.

12 Towards the end, when I had already decided to

13 abandon this job, I think it was Stenek or somebody else

14 who was there too, and he said to me: "Look, will you

15 please have an interview with this man", an elderly man

16 from Konjic. "We feel embarrassed. We know him and

17 he's done nothing". I said: "If you feel awkward about

18 it, I don't know the man. Why shouldn't I do it?" So

19 I went into a neighbouring office. I asked the man his

20 name. I remember he said Stanojevic Vladimir.

21 Stanojevic, I think that was his name. He was an

22 elderly man. We sat down and he talked, why he had

23 been brought in, when. Judging by all he told me there

24 was absolutely no reason. He had a pistol with a

25 permit of the authorities in those days. He had

1 surrendered it voluntarily. That is what he said. He

2 even said that he had a receipt. He was a Serb by

3 nationality. He said that his house had been searched

4 several times afterwards.

5 Then I went to the Commission and told them there

6 was no reason to detain this person in this camp, and

7 the people shrugged their shoulders and said: "We don't

8 know". Though this was not my duty, I went to Mr. Mucic

9 and I asked him: "Do you have any official record or

10 report as to why this man was brought in?" Mr. Mucic

11 must remember this. He said there was nothing.

12 "Well, how are we going to keep him? He should be

13 released. Why is he here?" He didn't say anything.

14 Of course, I went out. I left his office. I went

15 back. I continued my work, saying that there was no

16 need to continue interviewing this man.

17 The next day they said that I had to take a

18 statement from him, that everyone has to make a

19 statement. Whoever is captured has to make some kind of

20 a statement. So I said: "All right. There's no

21 problem. I'll take a statement". The man was brought

22 in. I spoke to him. A typist typed out this report

23 regarding the pistol. I even remember that he said his

24 son-in-law was an officer of the former JNA and that he

25 had stayed in the region of Krajina and he linked this

1 to his own case, thinking that was maybe the reason why

2 he had been captured, but as telephone and other

3 communications had been interrupted, it had nothing to

4 do -- he had no communication with his son-in-law. He

5 didn't even though whether he was alive or dead. I put

6 this down. Then again I went to speak to Mr. Mucic on

7 my own initiative and I asked him, and then he replied

8 with a certain amount of arrogance, and I said that:

9 "Why do we have to detain me (sic)?" He said: "He was

10 a Serb and he was a personnel man in the firm of

11 Igman". I didn't know that but I did know he was a

12 Serb. Still I didn't see any reason why and I don't

13 know when he was released. I think that we left in the

14 meantime.

15 Then there was another one. This man can confirm

16 the details if he's alive. There was another case of a

17 Professor, a teacher of philosophy or something like

18 that, or maybe political sciences, from the village of

19 Idbar. I think he wore a beard. He was a youngish

20 man. He was brought in. We didn't see any reasons in

21 writing, nor were any oral reasons conveyed to us.

22 I know the man said that he had left his parents in the

23 village of Idbar, that he had not been a member of any

24 military formations. I don't know when he was released

25 or whether he was released, but those are the two cases

1 I can remember. I can't recall his name.

2 Q. Sir, as time went on, you have indicated that you became

3 more concerned about what was happening in Celebici.

4 What, if anything, did you and any other members of the

5 Commission ultimately do?

6 A. I myself and others, too, were very -- very bitterly

7 complained and said what should be done. We all

8 realised that this was just a facade, this whole

9 Commission, which was supposed to sort of provide some

10 semblance of lawfulness to all this, but it was, in

11 fact, nothing. People had no answer to this. Let me

12 correct myself. Yesterday I said that we also may have

13 worked Saturdays. No, we did not. On Saturday -- one

14 Saturday, because we didn't work, I went looking for

15 Mr. Ivica Azinovic at the HVO, even though, truth be

16 told, that was not simple to go and say that you refused

17 to go and do this job, because I did describe how

18 I started this job. I had decided not to refuse any

19 work that would be in the interest of the defence of the

20 people and of peace.

21 On that Saturday I didn't know what to expect,

22 whether it would be accepted or not. I didn't know

23 what information they may possess. I waited in front

24 of the HVO. It was almost the early afternoon. He

25 never showed up and they never told me where Azinovic

1 was.

2 Q. What was Mr. Azinovic's role, please?

3 A. He was the President of the HVO.

4 Q. Please continue, sir.

5 A. That evening I went to where I lived at that time, but

6 the next morning, on Sunday, I came back. I knew that

7 these institutions were working because of the

8 situation. So I waited for him on Sunday, because

9 I was told that he was coming. Around noon Azinovic

10 showed up and I waited and then he invited me into the

11 office. I came into the office and told him everything

12 I knew, which I am now telling you, your Honours, what

13 was going on in the prison, in this camp, and that

14 I could not listen and watch these things, and least of

15 all do the job that I was assigned to do. As far as

16 I could see, he was surprised and he said that he had no

17 information of that kind. I told him, of course, that

18 it wasn't my duty to come and pass this information to

19 him, but since I've told him this, I told him that

20 I could not continue to work on this any more. I don't

21 know whether he believed me or not, but he said that he

22 had to talk to the other members of the Commission that

23 day, that he had to talk -- may I say this in private

24 session in continuation of this question?

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I would ask that we go into

1 private session.

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes. It is only one type of evidence,

3 but let's go into it.

4 (In closed session).

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (In open session)

18 MS. McHENRY: Sir, we are now in public session. You may

19 continue.

20 A. (No translation).

21 MS. McHENRY: Sir, I am going to ask that you hold on

22 because we are having some problems with interpretation.

23 A. Then the three of us waited and then they called other

24 people. There was Dinko Zebic. I didn't know him at

25 that time. I only met him later.

1 Q. What was Mr. Dinko Zebic's position?

2 A. I think he was the military commander.

3 Q. Of what unit or what entity?

4 A. The military units of the HVO.

5 Q. Thank you, sir. Please continue.

6 A. There were some other members of the HVO and then again

7 I said what I had told him privately, and the other two

8 who were present there confirmed this, and further

9 elaborated with additional details, which I did not

10 know. Azinovic said only one thing: "If this is the

11 situation, you must leave there and not work there any

12 more". I said: "Yes, I accept that. I agree with

13 that", but I proposed not to just leave there, because

14 it is not just us who are members of the Commission.

15 There are four additional members of this Commission who

16 also respond in the same way. Then he said: "So what

17 are you suggesting?" I said: "I'm suggesting that we

18 put it down in writing, the reasons for which we do not

19 wish to continue working there", and I vouched that all

20 members of the Commission are going to sign this.

21 The next day -- this was a Monday -- they agreed

22 to this, the people at the HVO, Azinovic and the rest,

23 and this report was drawn -- drafted. We did not say

24 that it had to be done the very next day, but the next

25 day -- I remember it was a Monday -- this report was

1 drafted. That Monday I had already planned before some

2 other business that I had to tend to, so I did not get

3 there in time. I think I arrived in Celebici on

4 Tuesday and I didn't find any members of the Commission

5 there. Then I realised that what we had agreed on was

6 done and I went to the HVO to report there. I think

7 I found there...

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness mentioned a name.

9 A. ... and other members of the Commission, and we talked

10 about all the irregularities we had observed, that the

11 Commander of the TO, the President of the HVO, the

12 co-ordinator of the combat operations, the tactical

13 group, which is the post that Mr. Delalic occupied, and

14 that there was a copy of this in the archives of the

15 HVO. I saw this. I picked up the copy to see whether

16 everything that we had mentioned, all the irregularities

17 had been recorded. Then I said I agreed about all the

18 details. However, had I been present at the drafting

19 there, I would have been more specific. I would have

20 added more details and I would not have wanted to see

21 just those general things that were stated.

22 Q. Okay, sir. Let me go back and make sure that

23 everything was understood correctly. Am I correct that

24 when you came back to Celebici and found no-one there

25 you then went to the HVO headquarters and learned that

1 the report had been written; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, correct.

3 Q. And you mentioned the names -- do you know. You

4 mentioned some names, but can I just clarify: to whom

5 was this report sent?

6 A. The report was sent -- this is what we had agreed and

7 this is what was said, who would be informed: the

8 Commander of the Territorial Defence in Konjic, the TO

9 Commander; the President of the HVO in Konjic; the

10 co-ordinator of the combat operations, Sarajevo

11 district. I don't know what area this comprised of.

12 That was Mr. Delalic. The TO Commander, I think it was

13 Ramic. The President of the HVO was Ivica Azinovic.

14 I don't know if it was sent to anyone else. I cannot

15 recall that.

16 Q. Okay. With the usher's assistance ...

17 A. Can I ask for some patience that I am able to read this

18 through? (Pause). Yes, this is the document.

19 Q. I believe, sir, what you have been shown has been marked

20 for identification purposes as Prosecution Exhibit

21 162. Sir, did I understand you correctly that this is

22 a copy of the report that you were just testifying

23 about?

24 A. Yes, this is a copy of that report.

25 Q. Okay. At the time that you went and got the copy from

1 the archives, did you review it and was it -- can you

2 just tell me whether the things mentioned in the report

3 were accurate and either observed by you or told to you

4 by one of the other Commission members?

5 A. Some -- a part of it is what the members of the

6 Commission saw and told and some I observed myself, and

7 when I took it from the archives I read it and I signed

8 it. I was one of the last to put a signature on it.

9 Q. Am I correct, sir, that in terms of the official report,

10 it had already been signed and forwarded before you had

11 an opportunity to sign it, because you were out of town;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that is correct, and some other members, I think,

14 were not there at the time, but the report was forwarded

15 to that, and I later verified that this report had been

16 forwarded.

17 Q. Okay. How can you verify that, in fact, the report had

18 been forwarded?

19 A. You see, I verified this in the HVO. I did not verify

20 it either at the TO or with Delalic directly, but in

21 contact with other people, for instance, Mrs. Jasna was

22 either a member of the War Presidency or something, and

23 when we would meet, among other things, she would

24 mention the issue of resolving the problems about the

25 camp, and this was not my problem any more, but on a

1 private basis I warned her. I said: "You have

2 international institutions present here on the territory

3 of Konjic. There's the Red Cross, other humanitarian

4 organisations. Something needs to be done. Is this

5 something that can go on in a civilised society, that in

6 this defence that we -- that blemishes the defence and

7 the position that we found ourselves in?" While I was in

8 this Investigative Commission we tried to do something,

9 but we could not do something, so we wrote the report.

10 You have to clear the matters in this camp".

11 I objected to her taking over these dead bodies

12 without authorisation. I don't know how she got

13 authorisation to do that. She told me that she

14 informed commander Zejnil of everything. My assumption

15 is that she knew. She didn't ask: "Why did you write

16 this report?", but my understanding was it is obvious

17 that she knew about this. She must have been

18 informed.

19 Then, further, I felt sorry for these people for

20 what was done, and a lot were not involved. These

21 people were left at the mercy, but later, as I continued

22 working in Konjic, everybody knew that something ugly

23 was going on there, that the Commission was not going

24 there, so these were rumours going around. I think

25 that I had already left. I don't know what period this

1 was. Mr. Zejnil can remember this. I was sitting in a

2 cafe near the gas station in Konjic. There were a lot

3 of people that I knew from Konjic, especially from the

4 MUP. I complained to these people from the MUP, that

5 is I asked -- I was asking for help in a sense that if

6 somebody manages to get from Sarajevo, which was under

7 siege, to come to Konjic, to check for me whether a

8 relative of mine, who was a member of the Ministry of

9 the Interior at Sarajevo, whether he was alive or not.

10 One of the members of the MUP told me, when

11 I enquired about this -- he said: "Bakir Alispahic

12 came. He is in Konjic. If you see him, look him

13 up. He is with Zejnil. Ask him to check this for

14 you". I asked these people who knew Bakir whether they

15 saw him. This was now towards the evening, and he --

16 I was told that he went to Orahovica with Zejnil. Now

17 Orahovica may be just a few hundred metres from

18 Konjic. They pointed to the house. It was just off

19 the main road. I sat in my car and went to this

20 house. Indeed, I found Mr. Zejnil there with another

21 group of people -- I don't know -- his friends or his

22 business partners. He introduced me to some of them --

23 in fact, to all of them. He would introduce some of

24 them to me. He said: "This man is from Sarajevo

25 Television". Some of these faces I knew from public --

1 as public personalities. I told him why I came to see

2 him. He apologised. He said he didn't have time to

3 sit down with me but if I had anything, to give him --

4 to do so. I wrote down a message for Bakir to check

5 for me whether this person was alive and Zejnil took it

6 and said he would pass it on to this person and if he

7 found out anything, that this person would pass it on

8 back to Zejnil. He'll tell me. At that time -- in

9 fact, this was the only time that I met with Zejnil

10 Delalic. He never asked me about the report: "Why did

11 you write it?", whether it was true or not. Had he

12 thought that it was necessary for us to talk about it --

13 I don't know if he considered it necessary to talk about

14 it, but if it was the talk of the town, as they say in

15 our parts, then maybe he could have discussed this with

16 me. I don't know.

17 Q. Sir, after the report, did you work any more in

18 Celebici?

19 A. No. I absolutely stopped working there. The moment

20 I was told that I should put some distance between

21 myself and this, and I needed this kind of approval,

22 because I couldn't just leave on my own. It would have

23 even been risky to have just left. That would be sort

24 of dereliction of duty.

25 Q. Your Honours, I move into evidence Prosecution Exhibit

1 162 and that will conclude my examination-in-chief?

2 JUDGE JAN: You have not sorted out the date of this

3 report.

4 MS. McHENRY: You are right. I am sorry, your Honour.

5 When was it that this report was written and

6 forwarded to the addressees?

7 A. You see, that's a mistake. That is really a mistake.

8 That's an omission that the date was not written, but

9 this was between 20th and 30th June. Now I don't know

10 where exactly in that period this was, but really this

11 was a mistake, that the date was not put down.

12 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, at this time I move

13 162 into evidence and I have no questions -- additional

14 questions.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: The Defence has seen it.

16 MS. McHENRY: I'm sorry, your Honour. The Defence received

17 this months ago.

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is admitted in evidence.

19 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Your Honours, as I said, this

20 finishes our examination-in-chief. It may be that,

21 like the last witness, there will be no

22 cross-examination, but if for some reason there is some

23 cross-examination, I would just, with your Honours'

24 permission, like to remind Defence Counsel that this

25 witness is particularly sensitive, and so if there's any

1 doubt about a question, the Prosecution at least would

2 request that we go into private session. Thank you.

3 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: It is 11.30 now. We will break and

4 come back at 12.00 for possible cross-examination.

5 (11.30 am)

6 (Short break)

7 (12.00)

8 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Have you now decided the order of

9 cross-examination?

10 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, we have, your Honour. We will proceed

11 in this way: first, counsel for Mr. Delalic; second,

12 counsel for Mr. Mucic; third, counsel for Mr. Delic; and,

13 last, counsel for Mr. Landzo. Thank you.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic

15 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): I beg your indulgence,

16 your Honours, until I organise myself. May it please

17 the court?

18 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Yes, you can take the witness.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Good day,

20 Mr. D. My name is Edina Residovic. I am Defence

21 Counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Mr. D, we may know each

22 other from before, but I am sure that, as a witness

23 under oath --

24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, excuse me. We are having some

25 motions from the booth and I don't know what it is

1 about. I think maybe something is wrong with the

2 headsets or something.

3 MS. McHENRY: The witness' microphone is not on.

4 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Okay.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you.

6 MR. GREAVES: In fact, I can see without him touching it

7 there is a loose connection. Maybe there is an

8 intermittent fault which ought to be cured before we go

9 further.

10 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Kindly check them. Look at it.

11 Make sure it doesn't go off again. Yes, you can

12 continue.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you. Mr. D, our

14 greetings were not heard, because of your microphone,

15 but I think we understood one another. Good day,

16 Mr. D.

17 A. Good day.

18 Q. You know that I am Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil

19 Delalic?

20 A. Yes, I do know that you are the Defence counsel for

21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

22 Q. Mr. D, I would not like to warn you, but to draw your

23 attention to a fact of which you may not be conscious,

24 and it is something that I too often forget. It is

25 very important that what we are saying should be heard

1 by the Trial Chamber and all others here present in this

2 courtroom, and since we speak a language that we

3 understand, we tend to put questions and answer them at

4 great speed. So I would like to ask you, when you hear

5 my question, to wait for the interpretation by our

6 interpreters and I, too, will do my best to wait while

7 I hear the interpretation of what you have said. This

8 will slow down our conversation but I think it would be

9 more useful for all round. Have we understood one

10 another?

11 A. We have quite, madam attorney.

12 Q. Thank you. Since I will be asking certain questions

13 which might indicate the identity of the witness,

14 I would request that we go into private session.

15 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We can go into private session.

16 I think we might keep it so throughout the

17 cross-examination.

18 (In closed session)

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4 (redacted)

5 (In open session)

6 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. D, before going on to

7 the next group of questions, I should like to ask you to

8 confirm whether I understood well your answer to a

9 question from the Prosecution that you had worked in the

10 military investigating commission for about one month;

11 is that right?

12 A. Yes. I cannot remember whether it was less. It's more

13 probably less, but roughly that.

14 Q. When you left for Konjic from the Mostar HVO, you were

15 given a letter and a permit indicating that you should

16 report to the Konjic HVO; is that right?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. Actually there was no other way for you to leave Mostar,

19 because the regulations of the Croatian community of

20 Herceg-Bosna at that time required that all military

21 conscripts had to have permission to leave their place

22 of residence. Isn't that so?

23 A. Yes, because it was impossible to pass through the

24 checkpoint without that.

25 Q. When you reached Konjic, you reported to the Konjic HVO?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. However, Mr. D, in view of the time that has elapsed

3 since those events, let us repeat and try to specify the

4 time that you have indicated in your testimony in the

5 Trial Chamber. Is it true that on that day you first

6 dropped in the place of Ostrozac, which for those who do

7 not know is a place called Ostrozac south of Konjic and

8 Celebici towards Mostar, and which belongs to the

9 municipality of Jablanica. Is that what you said?

10 A. That is what I said and explained. May I clarify a

11 little, if I may, briefly?

12 Q. Very briefly. You have answered my question, but I

13 can.

14 A. You see, from Ostrozac you have to go across a hanging

15 bridge to Butrovic Polje and that is where I was

16 going. If you are interested, I can tell you whose

17 greetings I was conveying.

18 Q. That will not be necessary. Thank you. You explained

19 that that was the day when combat operations in Bradina

20 ended and you explained why you remember that particular

21 day.

22 A. Maybe that's what I said, but there were groups of

23 soldiers coming back and there was firing, and without

24 knowing what was happening, I asked what it was, and

25 they said there had been combat operations in the

1 territory of Bradina.

2 Q. Therefore, Mr. D, if the battles in Bradina ended on 27th

3 or 28th May, then you reached Ostrozac roughly on that

4 date; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, it is.

6 Q. From Ostrozac, Mr. D, you went on to your family house in

7 Butrovic Polje, and the following day you went to Konjic

8 and reported to the HVO. Did I understand your

9 testimony well?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Therefore, your first arrival in Konjic could have been

12 somewhere around 28th May or 29th?

13 A. I do not remember the date, but I said the end of May.

14 Q. Is it correct and can you confirm that two or three days

15 after that and after all the discussions you had in the

16 HVO, you tried to go back to Mostar, but because of the

17 shelling of the road we have referred to, you were

18 unable to enter Mostar; is that correct?

19 A. Was that the same day I was -- after having reported to

20 the HVO I said I would go to Mostar, and I went back.

21 That may have been the same day. I can't tell each

22 individual day. It could have been that very same day

23 or the next day. I don't know.

24 Q. Therefore, if, Mr. D, you testified in this courtroom

25 that after the talk you had in the HVO you headed for

1 Mostar two or three days later and then came back again,

2 because you couldn't enter due to shelling, that is not

3 absolutely true?

4 A. Those were the days I was in the HVO, but so much time

5 has gone by since I can't remember what day it was, but

6 it is true that I went there and I came back, because

7 I had to.

8 Q. Mr. D, didn't you testify that after coming back from

9 Mostar, or rather after failing to enter Mostar, you

10 reported the next day again to the HVO, and came across

11 somebody called Zovko, who told you that you should

12 report to Goran Lokas? Is that right? Is that what you

13 said?

14 A. Yes. That was the same day I was coming from Mostar and

15 I continued to Konjic and reported to the HVO

16 immediately.

17 Q. Therefore, Mr. D, if you said in your testimony and your

18 previous statement that you did that the following day,

19 then that is not quite correct?

20 A. Whether that was the next day or not, I told you that

21 I went to Mostar. I couldn't enter. I came back and

22 went on to Konjic, and told the HVO I couldn't enter

23 Mostar. "If you have any duties for me, I can work here

24 too. There'll be no problems".

25 Q. I just wanted to check that if you said -- asserted that

1 you had done this the next day, you are now saying that

2 you are not quite sure of that?

3 A. I can't say with precision that it was the next day, but

4 I know where I went and why I went, but the exact time,

5 I don't think there's any dispute between us. It's

6 normal for you to ask me these things.

7 Q. Thank you, Mr. D: I know that you are a witness who has

8 come here to tell the truth and who is speaking under

9 oath, and I know my duties too, so will you please tell

10 me, is it true that you also stated before this Trial

11 Chamber that on that day you didn't find Goran Lokas,

12 because you learned that he had had an accident, and

13 according to your testimony this could have been

14 somewhere around 1st or 2nd June?

15 A. I didn't say that it was 1st or 2nd June. . Your

16 Honour, I know to came to Konjic to the HVO. Whether

17 those combat operations were still going on in Bradina

18 or not, I wasn't informed about that at all, and how

19 long those operations lasted I didn't know at the

20 time. I didn't know. The day when I found Zovko,

21 whether it was Zovko or somebody else, and when he said

22 that Lokas was not there ...

23 Q. When you didn't find Goran Lokas, Mr. D, you went back to

24 Butrovic Polje, and the following day from your

25 sister-in-law you learned that Miroslav Stenek had been

1 looking for you and that he had left a message that you

2 should report to the HVO; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I received that message. Stenek may have looked

4 for me that same day that I was looking for Lokas. I

5 don't know. I can't tell for sure, because we didn't

6 see one another, but anyway, when I returned from Konjic

7 I got this message, because it's not so easy to pass on

8 the message. Whether he had looked for me that day or

9 the day before, I can't tell.

10 Q. But, Mr. D, the next day, after you went looking for

11 Mr. Lokas, you found out from your sister-in-law that you

12 were looked for by Mr. Miroslav Stenek?

13 A. Yes, after I had gone over to them she said he was

14 coming but when he was coming I don't know.

15 Q. Now, Mr. D, you claim that you visited your sister-in-law

16 on the day when you were returning from Konjic?

17 A. No. I think I even went -- well, on both sides, when

18 going there and when coming back.

19 Q. So, Mr. D, if yesterday before this Trial Chamber you

20 testified that the next day, the day after you were

21 informed -- when you were asked to look for Goran Lokas,

22 you found out from your sister-in-law that Miro Stenek

23 was looking for you, then what you testified to

24 yesterday is not correct?

25 A. One thing is correct. I cannot really differentiate

1 these days. All this took place within a day or two,

2 and I cannot say now. Maybe I would have to be

3 especially reminded. In fact, I wasn't even interested

4 in these things. I reported to where I was told to

5 report. Whether this was a couple of days before the

6 1st or it was on the 1st, but this is how it was.

7 Q. So, Mr. D, you now claim that all this happened within a

8 day or two in the period of when you first arrived in

9 Konjic?

10 A. Yes. Maybe it was even three.

11 Q. So, Mr. D, if yesterday during questioning by the

12 Prosecution you testified before this Trial Chamber that

13 certain things happened within two or three days or the

14 next day, and you said that all this lasted eight or

15 nine days, then what you said was not entirely true; is

16 that correct?

17 A. I'm sorry. I apologise. I don't know what I said

18 that took eight or nine days, what was happening over a

19 period of eight or nine days.

20 Q. In order for you to better understand my questions, you

21 said that you came to Konjic, that this was the day when

22 the fighting in Bradina stopped, which was 27th May.

23 Then you said that on the next day you went to the HVO

24 in Konjic. That would be then 29th May. Then before

25 this Trial Chamber you said that within two or three

1 days you went to and tried to go back to Mostar. That

2 would be an additional two or three days. Then you

3 testified that you came back and the next day you went

4 to try to establish contact with Zovko, whose first name

5 you didn't know. That would be another day, day number

6 five. Then you testified that you tried to find Goran

7 Lokas and you couldn't find him, but then -- and then

8 you testified that your sister-in-law the next day told

9 you that Miro Stenek was looking for you, and then you

10 testified that the day after that, after this

11 information, you again went to the HVO. That would

12 make a total of eight to nine days, Mr. D.

13 If this is what you stated, Mr. D, then you did not

14 tell the truth before this Trial Chamber; is that

15 correct?

16 MS. McHENRY: Objection, your Honour. She can ask him if

17 he made a mistake. She can ask him to clarify. She

18 can ask him if there was some confusion, but to say

19 whether or not he told the truth, given that he has

20 already explained what happened, I think is unfair to

21 the witness.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Mr. D, are there big

23 discrepancies between what you have testified to before

24 this Trial Chamber and what you are saying now, that all

25 this only took two or three days? My question is: do

1 you see a big difference between these two statements?

2 A. This is not the kind of analysis that I made, but I said

3 in brief when I arrived in Ostrozac I was told that the

4 shooting was all coming from soldiers who were in

5 Bradina involved in the combat operations. You are

6 mentioning the 27th. 27th May means nothing to me.

7 It was confusion in those days. I can only speak to

8 the days which are in some documents.

9 Q. Mr. D, I would just like to go back to the questions

10 I would ask of you. Could you say not the dates, but

11 the period of two or three days and of eight or nine

12 days are two different periods?

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I thought you had made your own

14 observation of the effect of that. Go on to other

15 questions. You made your own evaluation on that. He

16 might be lying.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

18 Honours. Mr. D, you met at the HVO with a person named

19 Zovko, whom at that time you did not know. Did you

20 later find out who this person Zovko was? Was this

21 Zvonko Zovko?

22 A. That was not Zvonko Zovko. I said that I was not sure

23 that his name was Zovko. He was blond, medium height,

24 in his 40s. I also saw him later, but I cannot recall

25 the name now. I mentioned him. Maybe the President

1 of the HVO was not around so I was received in his

2 office.

3 Q. Mr. D, you reported to the HVO and, as you said, you

4 there stated that if you were not able to go back to

5 Mostar that you were prepared to take on some duties in

6 Konjic; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that I was at their disposal.

8 Q. On the same day you did not go to the MUP, the service

9 from which you retired?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. On that day, Mr. D, you didn't go either to the -- you

12 also did not go to the Territorial Defence headquarters

13 in Konjic; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were aware that at that time, pursuant to

16 regulations of Bosnia and Herzegovina concerning

17 mobilisation, the HVO was the organisation that would

18 appoint members of the Croatian community to such duties

19 and posts?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you were referred to Mr. Goran Lokas at the HVO in

22 Konjic, you knew at that time that he was in charge of

23 the security affairs at the HVO; is that correct?

24 A. No. I did not know that he was in charge of the

25 security affairs. I was told that Goran Lokas works

1 for -- in the military investigative commission. I

2 didn't know -- I didn't ask what this Commission was,

3 where it was working, what the duties were, but from the

4 name itself I understood that it was a commission that

5 dealt with military affairs in connection with this war.

6 Q. Mr. D, it was not strange to you that Mr. Miroslav Stenek

7 was looking for you at your sister-in-law's, because

8 you, in fact, knew Mr. Miroslav Stenek personally?

9 A. That's right. I don't know why it should have been

10 strange.

11 Q. And Miroslav Stenek was also an official with the

12 Ministry of Internal Affairs, just like you were?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You knew in the same way Goran Lokas, who worked in the

15 internal -- Ministry for the Interior at the same time

16 as you did and then later became a judge with the court

17 for misdemeanours?

18 A. I think that he was first the judge with the court for

19 misdemeanours and then was the secretary.

20 Q. Mr. D, you said that just in front of the HVO -- in the

21 hallway you met Mr. Azinovic, whom you had not known

22 before, and who had just arrived with his driver?

23 A. That's true.

24 Q. You also stated that immediately you went with him to

25 Mr. Delalic's house?

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. You also stated that you personally know Mr. Delalic; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Of course. Of course.

5 Q. You not only went to the same school with him, but in

6 the same classroom; is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. When you entered Mr. Delalic's apartment, this was the

9 only person in the apartment whom you knew personally;

10 is that correct?

11 A. The only person I knew at that time.

12 Q. And for that reason it seemed obvious to you that he

13 would be the only one to greet you and then introduce

14 you to other persons?

15 A. Probably.

16 Q. Since you already knew the name of Mr. Ivica Azinovic,

17 can you also tell us what other persons were present in

18 Mr. Delalic's apartment and whose names you learned after

19 you were introduced to them after Mr. Delalic?

20 A. The only -- I shook hands with this man, but only later

21 did I find out that Dinko Zebic -- until that time I had

22 never seen the man or known him, or knew about what his

23 position was either in the HVO or any other place, and

24 I wasn't even interested in that, but the two of them --

25 in fact, Mr. Zejnil had some papers in his hand, some

1 kind of chart or some kind of a sketch drawn by hand,

2 and the same thing also had Dinko Zebic in his hand.

3 Q. Dinko Zebic wore a military uniform; is that correct?

4 A. I cannot recall. There were men in uniforms there and

5 some who did not have uniforms. I cannot recall, but

6 it is possible.

7 Q. At that time Mr. Delalic introduced Dinko Zebic, the head

8 of the HVO?

9 A. No, Mr. Zejnil Delalic did not introduce me to any people

10 in particular. There are several of them there.

11 I did shake hands of them, the ones who were standing

12 up. Those who were sitting down at a small coffee

13 table I did not. As we were standing and shaking hands

14 he was introducing me but he wasn't introducing anybody

15 back to me.

16 Q. Mr. D, this is the first time that you saw Mr. Dinko

17 Zebic?

18 A. Yes, the first time.

19 Q. In other words, Mr. D, if today during your testimony and

20 when asked by the Prosecutor you claim that you saw

21 Dinko Zebic for the first time when you came to describe

22 the conditions in Celebici, together with your

23 colleagues from the Commission, with your colleague

24 Zovko, that would not be true?

25 A. That is not what I said. It was that -- that it was on

1 that occasion that I met Dinko Zebic, because on that

2 occasion, when I met him in the room with Mr. Zejnil

3 Delalic, I also met him in passing several times, and

4 I obviously asked who the Commander of the HVO was, and

5 I found out. So I'm sorry. I did not state that.

6 It is either a mistake in interpreting or you

7 heard-mistakenly, but until that time I had never been

8 with him, that is true, nor had I any need to be with

9 him.

10 Q. So at the time when you visited Mr. Delalic's house you

11 had no personal knowledge about what Mr. Delalic was

12 doing or what his duties and what his authorities were?

13 A. Until that moment absolutely no information. I could

14 make assumptions, but nobody told me, but inferences --

15 Q. Thank you. I wasn't really asking you about

16 inferences, only what you knew. Mr. D, you said that

17 the next day you joined in the work of the military

18 investigative commission in Celebici; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. So if -- how you explained your -- the process by which

21 you arrived at working in this Commission, that could

22 have taken place only on 3rd or 4th June, but since

23 you've clarified this, I'm just pointing to the

24 discrepancy which showed up in your statement?

25 A. I really cannot speak to the dates precisely.

1 Q. That is why I'm not asking you that. Several days

2 after the start of your work is it true that a meeting

3 took place with Mr. Delalic?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Could you be more precise, since this is a short period

6 of time, the period of time that you worked in this

7 Commission, about 30 days? How many days could it have

8 been from the day when you started working for the

9 Commission and the day which took place, as you said,

10 where Mr. Delalic was also present? Could you be more

11 precise about what this "several days" means? Is it

12 two, three, four?

13 A. If I were able to talk about dates, I would gladly do

14 so. Two days, three days. I say short period of

15 time, and I didn't say that I worked for 30 days.

16 I never stated an exact number of days.

17 Q. I apologise. I month?

18 A. I didn't even say a month. I said up to a month, and

19 it is possible that this was 20 plus days.

20 Q. I apologise if I misquote you some time, but it has all

21 been taken down in transcript very precisely, so there's

22 no controversy there. So my question to you is: the

23 day you went to work in this Commission up until the day

24 when this meeting took place, could you tell us, at

25 least approximately, how many days would that be? More

1 than two days and less than seven days?

2 A. I really cannot even talk about that within that

3 framework. I only know that several days went by.

4 Q. Is it true that before this Trial Chamber you testified

5 that after this meeting Mr. Delalic gave you a piece of

6 paper, as you said, sort of a certificate for you to be

7 able to -- a permit for you to be able to leave Konjic?

8 A. If I misspoke, what -- I can't recall now, but at first

9 I asked for this piece of paper so that I would be able

10 to go to Mostar, because I was not able to do that, but

11 if I said that, I misspoke, if I said that this happened

12 then, in this meeting. I know that I asked him and

13 I told him that I had to go. Now how this happened

14 that he wrote this for me, whether I asked through

15 somebody else and then he had it delivered to me, to be

16 honest, it didn't matter to me. I just needed this

17 permit.

18 Q. Mr. D, when asked very precisely by the Prosecutor

19 whether on that day you also had a personal piece of

20 business that you did with Mr. Delalic, you then said

21 that Mr. Delalic gave you this permit, which you

22 identified before all of us. Is it correct that this

23 is how you had stated it?

24 A. Yes. Until this meeting, until this meeting took place,

25 I had not gone. I was talking about my need to go, and

1 when I asked this permit, I told him -- I said: "I don't

2 know when I will go". Then indeed, as a colleague and a

3 gentleman, he said: "Fine", and gave it to me.

4 Q. On the day when you talked, is it on that day that he

5 gave you this permit?

6 A. If I said that it was then, then it was my mistake.

7 I misspoke. He didn't give me that piece of paper

8 then, but at that time we did discuss my departure. We

9 talked about it. I should have gone. Maybe I said --

10 I may have heard the news that the shelling was very bad

11 and I couldn't go, but there was discussion of that --

12 about that.

13 Q. When asked by me and before that, before this Trial

14 Chamber, that the HVO issued permits for the militarily

15 able persons to leave the city; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You knew that Mr. Delalic had no duty with the HVO?

18 A. At that time -- I don't know. At that time I didn't

19 know anything. I only saw Mr. Delalic in some kind of

20 command position when I got there. I didn't know

21 anything else and I wasn't interested in anything else.

22 Q. Mr. D, to go back to your joining the Commission, on the

23 day when you were in Mr. Delalic's house with

24 Mr. Azinovic, between then and the meeting you held, you

25 never saw Mr. Delalic; is that correct?

1 A. I said that I even signed up on a uniform in

2 Mr. Delalic's house, but whether this was before the

3 meeting or after the meeting I don't know.

4 Q. And, Mr. D, Mr. Delalic had authority to issue you a

5 uniform; is that correct? You noticed that?

6 A. I don't know if he had authority, but the first time --

7 the first day when I talked to him, I told him that

8 I would need a uniform, and I think that at that time he

9 said that there was no problem for me to come and pick

10 up a uniform, and somebody issued this uniform to me,

11 and I signed off on it.

12 Q. Perhaps --

13 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: I saw you look up. I thought you

14 were watching the clock. The Trial Chamber will go

15 into a break. We will come back at 2.30.

16 (1.00 pm)

17 (Luncheon adjournment)

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1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: We can continue, Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Thank you, your

4 Honours.

5 Mr. D, I should like to go back a little bit to

6 discuss the meeting which you said was held on June 1st

7 and which was attended by Mr. Delalic.

8 A. (No translation) I did not say it was held on June 1st.

9 Q. Mr. D, on page 5180 of the English text you were shown a

10 document. Before I go on to that question, I should

11 like to ask you whether you can confirm what is stated

12 in the transcript on page 5180, namely that on that day

13 at a meeting of the Commission -- the meeting of the

14 Commission was attended, as stated in lines 13-18, which

15 members of the Commission, Mladen Zovko, Munib

16 Halilovic, Mehmedalija Rizvic --

17 MS. McHENRY: May I just ask that the members of the

18 Commission not all be said in public session?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC (in interpretation): Your Honours, I propose

20 we have a private session until the end of my

21 cross-examination, because I don't know which of the

22 names I am mentioning may be protected witnesses and

23 I think this would facilitate the proceedings for all of

24 us.

25 JUDGE KARIBI WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think it's a

1 surer way of allowing you to cross-examine without

2 difficulty. So let's all go into private session.

3 I suppose we will not have these problems again. Thank

4 you.

5 (In closed session) (F)

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