Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5438

     1                                          Monday, 4th August 1997.

     2      (10.07 am)

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Morning ladies and gentlemen.   We are

     4          back after a fortnight; no vacation, really.   The fort-

     5          night absence from active duty in the Trial Chamber.

     6          So we are now going to continue from where we

     7          stopped.   Can we have the appearances.

     8      MR. NIEMANN:   For the prosecution.  My name is Mr. Niemann

     9          and I appear with Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Ellis

    10          Van Dusschoten.

    11      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Good morning your Honours, I am Edina

    12          Residovic defence counsel for Zejnil Delalic.  My

    13          colleague is Eugene O'Sullivan.

    14      MR. OLUJIC:   I am Zejnil Olujic for Zdravko Mucic.   My

    15          colleague is Michael Greaves, Attorney from the United

    16          Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    17      MR.. KARABDIC:   Good morning your Honours, I am Salih

    18          Karabdic, Attorney from Sarajevo, Attorney for Hazim

    19          Delic.  With me is Tom Moran, lawyer from Houston,

    20          Texas.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:   Good morning your Honours.  I am John

    22          Ackerman and my co-counsel is Cynthia McMurrey from the

    23          United States.   Thank you.

    24      MR. MORAN:  We are having a little difficulty getting the

    25          transcript on these computers.   If the technical folks

Page 5439

     1          could take a look at it.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   I am sure someone will be able to

     3          check on them.

     4      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Mr. Niemann.

     5      MR. TURONE:   Good morning your Honours, our next witness was

     6          supposed to be protected from the media and the public

     7          but he gave up this protection.   So he will testify in

     8          open court.   We call Mr. Milenko Kuljanin as our next

     9          witness.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, bring the witness in.

    11      MR. O'SULLIVAN:   Your Honours perhaps before the witness

    12          starts to testify we should get the computer transcript

    13          correct.   It is still not done yet.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Kindly ask the witness to wait.

    15      The Trial Chamber will rise for a few minutes and

    16          immediately we know everything is all right we will come

    17          in.

    18      MR. MORAN:  Thank you your Honour

    19                        (The witness enters court).

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Would you kindly put the witness on oath

    21                          (Milenko Kuljanin, sworn).

    22      MR. TURONE:   May I proceed, Your Honours.

    23      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you can.

    24      A.  May I start, Your Honours.

    25      Q.  Could you please state your full name, sir?

Page 5440

     1      A.  Milenko Kuljanin.

     2      Q.  What is your date of birth, Mr.. Kuljanin?

     3      A.  1st February 1968.

     4      Q.  What is your ethnic group?

     5      A.  I am a Serb.

     6      Q.  Where were you born?

     7      A.  Konjic.

     8      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, what education did you receive, I mean what

     9          kind of schools did you attend?

    10      A.  I completed secondary school for catering in Sarajevo.

    11      Q.  What was your profession in 1992?

    12      A.  I was a waiter.

    13      Q.  Where did you live at the beginning of May 1992?

    14      A.  I lived in Bradina.

    15      Q.  Was there a time when Bradina was affected by the armed

    16          conflict in 1992?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Can you say on which date did that happen?

    19      A.  Bradina was attacked on 25th May 1992 by the Muslim and

    20          Croat paramilitary formations.

    21      Q.  Was there a time then when you were arrested?

    22      A.  Yes, I was captured, arrested on 29th or 30th May 1992

    23          by the Muslim, as I described them, paramilitary

    24          formations in the village of Ljuta near Kalinovik.

    25      Q.  Can you say very briefly the circumstances of your

Page 5441

     1          arrest and what happened right after your arrest?

     2      A.  Before I was arrested the village of Bradina was

     3          attacked by the Muslim and Croat paramilitary

     4          formations.   They attacked the virtually unarmed

     5          population that happened to be in Bradina.   They

     6          started setting fire to houses, shooting at the people

     7          that they encountered and killing them and with a couple

     8          of friends I tried to escape from the onslaught of

     9          Muslim and Croat.  I do not know how to call them

    10          myself, and I went -- I sought shelter and finally I was

    11          captured and arrested in the village of Ljuta not far

    12          from Kalinovik.   When we were arrested we were

    13          mistreated in various ways.  We were tortured in the

    14          village of Ljuta itself where we were arrested.   After

    15          that they transferred us to Mount Igman, where they beat

    16          us again and mistreated us.   We were kept there for

    17          some time and then we were transferred to the camp to

    18          the Celebici camp.   In the Celebici camp they beat us

    19          as soon as we arrived.   They lined us up against the

    20          wall.

    21      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, just a moment:  going back to the time of

    22          your arrest, how many were the soldiers who arrested

    23          you, approximately?

    24      A.  There were about 50, 50 soldiers.

    25      Q.  Can you say to which military units did they belong?

Page 5442

     1      A.  They were Muslim paramilitary units.

     2      Q.  Could you observe which uniforms did they wear and any

     3          insignia they might have had?

     4      A.  Yes, they were wearing uniforms with the insignia of the

     5          lillies that they had and still have.

     6      Q.  How many people were arrested together with you?

     7      A.  20 odd people were arrested.

     8      Q.  Were you told why you were being arrested?

     9      A.  We were told because we were Serbs.   That is the one

    10          and only reason that they arrested us, kill us,

    11          mistreated us and tortured us.   In view of the fact

    12          that we had not killed anyone, we did not attack anyone,

    13          we were in our homes where we lived and so on.

    14      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, did you reach Celebici camp with a vehicle,

    15          I suppose; is that correct?

    16      A.  Yes, we arrived in the Celebici camp on board a military

    17          vehicle of FAP make.   On this military vehicle we were

    18          tied up, we were beaten.   During the drive to the

    19          Celebici camp and the guard who was sitting on top fired

    20          at us and on that occasion he killed one of the

    21          prisoners and wounded four.

    22      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, can you say on which day you arrived at

    23          Celebici and approximately at what time in the day?

    24      A.  I cannot say exactly because I do not remember, but

    25          I think it was late in the afternoon.

Page 5443

     1      Q.  What day, of what date?

     2      A.  The 29th, 30th; I cannot recall exactly.

     3      Q.  All right.   Mr. Kuljanin, did you have any weapon

     4          yourself at the time of your arrest?

     5      A.  No, I did not.

     6      Q.  Did you in any way take part in the defence of the

     7          village of Bradina?

     8      A.  Unfortunately I did not.

     9      Q.  Can you approximately say whether there were persons in

    10          Bradina and how many persons in Bradina who were armed

    11          and took part in some defence of the village?

    12      A.  There must have been armed people, if there had been

    13          armed people in Bradina it would not have suffered the

    14          fate it did, which means that they were not armed,

    15          except for perhaps a hunting rifle or would or some

    16          small arms that people might have had like a pistol.   I

    17          am not aware of any other arms.

    18      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, would you now tell us in detail what

    19          happened to you right after your arrival at Celebici?

    20      A.  After we arrived in Celebici we were shut up in tunnel

    21          number nine.   Before we entered this tunnel we had to

    22          stand up against a wall for several hours and while we

    23          were standing there the guards, the soldiers who were

    24          there, they beat us, they hit us, killed us.   After

    25          that we were put in tunnel number nine, where our

Page 5444

     1          suffering continued.   They tortured us in all kinds of

     2          possible ways.   As for the tunnel itself --

     3      Q.  Just a moment, Mr. Kuljanin, you said you were lined up

     4          against a wall together with the other ones, were you

     5          personally beaten in this occasion while being lined up

     6          at the wall?

     7      A.  Yes, I was.   They beat me.

     8      Q.  How long about were you beaten?

     9      A.  They beat me because I had only just been captured.

    10          I did not know any of the guards by name.   So I did not

    11          know who it was at first.   I do not know who beat me

    12          when we had only just arrived.

    13      Q.  But my question was; how long were you beaten in this

    14          occasion.  Did you not hear me?

    15      A.  No.

    16      Q.  For how long were you beaten on that occasion while you

    17          were lined up at the wall?  Do you hear the translation?

    18      A.  I hear now.   I did not hear a moment ago.   I only just

    19          managed to hear.   Thank you.

    20      Q.  So my question was; for how long were you beaten at the

    21          wall in this occasion?

    22      A.  For about three or four hours.

    23      Q.  Did anybody take note of your names right after your

    24          arrival at Celebici?

    25      A.  When we arrived in Celebici and before being lined up

Page 5445

     1          against the wall in the command, when we were tied up

     2          and they took down their names.   That was all.   After

     3          that they started beating us.   This beating went on for

     4          three or four hours after which we were put in the

     5          tunnel.

     6      Q.  All right.   Mr. Kuljanin, you see a model in front of

     7          you in this courtroom.   You can stand up and watch it

     8          and look at it if you wish.   My question is; do you

     9          recognise what does the model represent first of all?

    10      A.  It is the model of the Celebici camp.

    11      Q.  So, could you please indicate, may I ask the usher to

    12          provide the witness with something to point, could you

    13          indicate on the model the places you have been talking

    14          so far.   I mean the entrance of the camp, the wall

    15          where you were lined up and tunnel number nine.   If you

    16          want to turn around the model you can, of course?

    17      A.  The entrance to the camp was here.   The gate was here,

    18          (indicating) there was the command building, the

    19          Infirmary (indicating) tunnel number nine, hangars

    20          number six (indicating).  These were also hangars

    21          (indicating). The manhole was here, (indicating) a

    22          manhole.

    23      Q.  All right, thank you.

    24      A.  And some other buildings over here.

    25      Q.  You can go back to your seat.   Now, Mr. Kuljanin, in

Page 5446

     1          which physical conditions were you when you first

     2          entered tunnel nine?

     3      A.  I was in a poor physical condition because we had been

     4          beaten en route to the camp and at the camp when we

     5          arrived there.   I was in a very poor physical

     6          condition.

     7      Q.  Did you receive any medical care?

     8      A.  No, we did not.

     9      Q.  When you first entered tunnel nine were there any

    10          prisoners already inside the tunnel?

    11      A.  When we entered tunnel number nine there were no

    12          prisoners inside.   It was empty.

    13      Q.  Could you please now describe the physical

    14          characteristics of tunnel nine; give us a description of

    15          tunnel nine?

    16      A.  Tunnel number nine was underground.   It was about 1

    17          metre and 20 centimetres wide in my assessment, and

    18          about 20 metres long.   In fact, as I said it was under

    19          the ground and it was an incline.  I am not sure what

    20          the degrees of the gradient were.

    21      Q.  Thank you.   Was there any electric light inside the

    22          tunnel?

    23      A.  The electric lights were never turned on.   There were

    24          electric lights but they were never turned on during our

    25          stay in the tunnel.

Page 5447

     1      Q.  Was there any natural light?  I mean, was there any

     2          opening through which daylight could enter into the

     3          tunnel?

     4      A.  Yes, at the entrance door, but very little.   From

     5          around half of the tunnel it was pitch dark.   You could

     6          only see halfway towards the door.

     7      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, how long did you stay in tunnel nine?

     8      A.  In tunnel number nine I stayed for about 110 days.

     9      Q.  I understand that when you arrived there you were about

    10          20 people; did the number of prisoners in number nine

    11          change in the period of time you remained there?

    12      A.  Yes, it did.   The number of prisoners kept increasing

    13          in tunnel number nine.   They kept bringing new people

    14          from the neighbouring villages.  They brought or

    15          neighbours.  The number of people in tunnel nine

    16          increased to around 40, if I recall correctly.

    17      Q.  Did you sit in a particular place inside the tunnel?

    18      A.  In tunnel number nine I sat by the door.   I was the

    19          sixth or seventh from the door.

    20      Q.  Could you now tell you how were the conditions of life

    21          in tunnel nine, I mean, food, drinking water, toilet

    22          facilities, where did you sleep, etc?

    23      A.  We slept in the tunnel.   We slept in the tunnel, the

    24          conditions were extremely poor.   It will suffice to

    25          take a look at the tunnel, that is sufficient in

Page 5448

     1          itself.   As regard food and water and all other

     2          conditions, they were very poor.   We only received

     3          every third day a slice of bread.   We would receive a

     4          loaf of bread for 13 or 17 of us depending from

     5          practically day-to-day.   The same goes as far as

     6          water.  As far as relieving ourselves.  We did to do it

     7          in the tunnel and it was horrendous.   The conditions in

     8          fact were abominable, as the tunnel itself shows.

     9      Q.  What about the toilet facility, how did you manage?

    10      A.  We had to relieve ourselves in the tunnel itself.

    11          There was a bucket which was thrown in by the Muslim

    12          guards and we had to use that to relieve ourselves in.

    13          That was our toilet.

    14      Q.  Were you also allowed sometimes to go out to relieve

    15          yourself?

    16      A.  Yes, they would let us out to relieve ourselves

    17          sometimes, but before we relieved ourselves, we had to

    18          stand next to the wall, raise our arms and spread our

    19          legs so that Hazim Delic would hit each of us with a

    20          baseball bat two or three times on the back, on the

    21          kidneys.   It was only then that we were allowed to

    22          relieve ourselves.   After that we would return to the

    23          tunnel.

    24      Q.  May I ask the usher to provide the witness with

    25          production exhibit number 1, which is a set of photos of

Page 5449

     1          the camp.   I would like the witness to see on the ELMO,

     2          please, photo 45 first on page 33, I suppose.   Mr.

     3          Kuljanin, do you recognise anything in this photo?

     4      A.  Yes, I do.   This is tunnel number nine.

     5      Q.  Yes, could you please now look at the following photo,

     6          number 46, please.

     7      A.  Yes.

     8      Q.  That is probably not reentered the right way on the

     9          ELMO.   Yes, that is correct.

    10      A.  This is the interior of the tunnel, tunnel number nine.

    11      Q.  All right.   What about the next photo, number 47?

    12      A.  That is the rear end of tunnel number nine.

    13      Q.  All right.   Production exhibit No. 1, so far we do not

    14          need it now but we will need it again later.   So, Mr.

    15          Kuljanin, after the beating you suffered the very first

    16          day at the wall, were you personally beaten again during

    17          the period of your stay in tunnel nine?

    18      A.  Yes, I was beaten many times.

    19      Q.  So without giving --

    20      A.  By --

    21      Q. -- Giving any detail yet, can you say approximately how

    22          frequently were you personally beaten during your stay

    23          in tunnel nine?

    24      A.  Three to four times personally, not to mention the mass

    25          beatings, when I was beaten with the rest.  I was

Page 5450

     1          personally beaten three or four times.

     2      Q.  Again without giving any detail yet, did you personally

     3          suffer any other physical maltreatment besides beating

     4          during the period of your stay in tunnel nine?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  Did that happen once or more than once?

     7      A.  It happened two times.

     8      Q.  So now, can you help describe in detail every single

     9          major incident.   I mean every major incidents either

    10          beaten or maltreated that you personally suffered while

    11          you were in tunnel nine, please?

    12      A.  Yes, now I would mention the maltreating and the torture

    13          by Landzo, who came to the door and asked me if I was

    14          married read etc. As I said, I was not married.  He told

    15          me what if I take you to watch a cassette, this was a

    16          cassette of a wedding of a relative of mine where I was

    17          a member of the wedding party.   He could not understand

    18          some of those things.   So he took me out with Osman

    19          Dedic, Camdzic and I cannot remember the names of the

    20          others.   He tied me up.   He tied me to a pole and also

    21          gagged me.   He ordered me to kneel, and as I kneeled --

    22          when I kneeled they started to beat me.   They beat me

    23          with rifle butts.  They kicked me with their feet.

    24          They hit me with sticks.   I do not remember all manner

    25          of thing they beat me with.   They were strong blows and

Page 5451

     1          I hurt terribly.   I fell down.  I almost lost

     2          consciousness. When they stopped beating me and

     3          torturing me I was unable to get up.   He then called

     4          the other two guys from tunnel number nine, other two

     5          guys from tunnel nine took me in.

     6      Q.  When you say he called, who do you mean he called?

     7      A.  Landzo, whom I already mentioned.   I told you what he

     8          had asked me.   Then I would also like to mention the

     9          torture I suffered at the hands of Hazim.

    10      Q.  Before you go to another incident, I would like to focus

    11          on this one, Mr. Kuljanin.   By whom exactly were you

    12          tied to the pole?

    13      A.  By Landzo, I was tied to the pole by Landzo.

    14      Q.  Do you remember where in the camp was this pole?

    15      A.  It was above the tunnel number nine.

    16      Q.  May I invite you, Mr. Kuljanin, to look again at the

    17          photos you have on your right-hand side on the ELMO

    18          beside you and look at these photos just to find out, if

    19          you find in these photos the pole which might be the one

    20          that you are talking about.   Can you indicate?

    21      A.  (Indicating).

    22      Q.  Was that the pole that you were tied to?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  All right.

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 5452

     1      Q.  Were you also gagged with something within you were tied

     2          to the pole?

     3      MR. MORAN:  Excuse me, your Honour.

     4      A.  I have already said that I was gagged by Landzo.   He

     5          gagged me and he tied me to the pole.   They ordered me

     6          to kneel, then they started to beat me with rifle butts

     7          and hit me with all sorts of things.

     8      Q.  For the record I will say that the witness indicated

     9          photo number 50 in prosecution exhibit No 1. Thank

    10          you.   So, with what were you beaten while you were tied

    11          to the pole?

    12      A.  As I have already mentioned, I was viciously beaten by

    13          rifle butts, by some sorts of sticks.  I was kicked,

    14          etc.   They beat me until I almost lost consciousness.

    15          Then two came, two men came from tunnel number nine to

    16          bring me back inside, to take me back inside because I

    17          could not do it myself.

    18      Q.  How long did all this last, approximately?

    19      A.  It lasted from half an hour to 45 minutes approximately,

    20          if not more.

    21      Q.  Do you remember approximately when did this happen, at

    22          least in which month?

    23      A.  It happened somewhere in June, some time in June.

    24          I cannot remember the date.

    25      Q.  All right.   So can you help now describe any other

Page 5453

     1          incident you personally suffered during the period you

     2          stayed in tunnel nine.  Pass to next incident please?

     3      A.  I can refer to an incident which where Hazim Delic was

     4          the perpetrator.   He had this electrical gadget which

     5          he used to burn me twice.   He put it to my chest on

     6          two occasions and I received an electric shock.   Then I

     7          would also like to mention the occasions when he beat me

     8          with a baseball bat and kicked me --

     9      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, before going to another incident let us

    10          focus, please, on the one concerning the electrical

    11          device.   Can you please describe in detail this

    12          electrical device?

    13      A.  Delic entered tunnel number nine with this device which

    14          I already mentioned.   Then he put it to my chest twice

    15          and I do not know how it functioned but I received two

    16          electrical shocks.  It was horrible and unpleasant.

    17      Q.  Yes, Mr. Kuljanin, my question is could you please give

    18          us a physical description of this electrical device?

    19          Did how did it look like?  How was it done?

    20      A.  Yes, I can.

    21      Q.  Please do that?

    22      A.  This electrical device had the form of a packet of

    23          cigarettes but it was much larger.   On top it had two

    24          wires.   There was a button on the device approximately,

    25          a connecting button so that the wires would conduct

Page 5454

     1          electricity to the chest so that I would receive a shock

     2          and the shock which I did receive was terribly

     3          unpleasant.   I had convulsion on account of the shock

     4          and I twitched.

     5      Q.  Do you mean Mr. Delic used the electrical device on you

     6          twice in the same day or on different days?

     7      A.  Twice on the same day.

     8      Q.  Did he apply this device on your skin or on your

     9          clothes?

    10      A.  He applied it on my skin.

    11      Q.  Exactly on which part of your body?

    12      A.  The chest, below the neck.

    13      Q.  Did any visible traces remain on your skin after that?

    14      A.  Yes, initially there was a trace and it remained there

    15          for three or four months.   They were spots where the

    16          wires had contacted the skin.   They were tiny scars on

    17          account of the contact with the electricity.

    18      Q.  Did Delic use this device on you inside the tunnel?

    19      A.  He used it inside the tunnel.

    20      Q.  Did he say anything while using this device on you?

    21      A.  Yes, he laughed.   He found it funny.

    22      Q.  Can you say approximately when did this happen, at least

    23          in which month?

    24      A.  It happened approximately in July, the month of July.

    25      Q.  Did you ever see Mr. Delic using this device on anybody

Page 5455

     1          else besides you?

     2      A.  Yes, I did.   It happened in the tunnel, he applied this

     3          device also to other prisoners who were in the tunnel

     4          with me.

     5      Q.  Can you say approximately how many times and can you say

     6          the names of any of these prisoners who received this

     7          treatment?

     8      A.  I can state some of the names of the people who were

     9          subjected to this form of torture and maltreatment.

    10          They are Desimir Mrkajic, Radovan Dordic, Marko Kuljanin,

    11          Kuljanin Radovan and these I can remember.

    12      Q.  All right, thank you.   Did you ever hear Mr. Delic

    13          saying anything to any of these prisoners while using

    14          the electrical device on them?

    15      A.  With some of them he talked during this and laughed at

    16          them as he was applying the device.   Some of them

    17          begged him as they were in pain and unpleasant pain not

    18          to do that not to torture them, not to maltreat them,

    19          but he even hit some of them when they begged him to

    20          cease torturing them.   He merely laughed.

    21      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin.   Now you were going to talk

    22          about another incident and you mentioned something like

    23          a baseball bat.   Could you go on on this account?

    24      A.  Yes, your Honour I can continue.   Delic that baseball

    25          bat which he used the most, I have personally felt if on

Page 5456

     1          my skin.  I was personally maltreated by Delic with a

     2          baseball bat in the tunnel and in front of the tunnel.

     3          He would enter the tunnel.  He entered the tunnel with a

     4          baseball bat.   I was sitting inside and he started

     5          walking me on the back with it and on the kidneys

     6          specifically.  Then he would take me out in front of the

     7          tunnel and I stood against the wall.  I had to raise my

     8          arms and spread my legs.  They he hit me also with the

     9          baseball bat on the back and on the kidneys.

    10      Q.  Approximately how many times did Delic beat you with

    11          this baseball bat?

    12      A.  He hit me many times, lot of times.

    13      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, did Mr. Delic say anything to you while

    14          beating you with the baseball bat?

    15      A.  He did.   He mentioned Serbian, he mentioned the

    16          Chetniks.   It mainly all boiled down to the fact that

    17          we were Serbs and he said as much.   In fact there

    18          existed no other reason.

    19      Q.  Did you ever see Mr. Delic using this baseball bat on

    20          other prisoners?

    21      A.  Oh, yes, I did.   I saw him using the baseball bat on

    22          all the prisoners who were with me in tunnel number

    23          nine, on all the prisoners he used the baseball bat who

    24          were in tunnel number nine while I was there with all of

    25          them.

Page 5457

     1      Q.  Can you say approximately how many times did that

     2          happen?

     3      A.  It happened virtually every day, almost every day.

     4      Q.  Did you ever hear Mr. Delic say anything while beating

     5          any prisoner with this baseball bat?

     6      A.  Yes, he would always have a reason.   He would refer to

     7          the Chetniks, how the Chetniks were killing people.

     8          What they were doing to the Muslims - this and that.

     9          Those were his main pretext and his main excuses and

    10          reasons.

    11      Q.  Now, Mr. Kuljanin, is there any other major incident that

    12          you probably suffered during the period you stayed in

    13          tunnel nine?

    14      A.  Yes, when I was in tunnel number nine, Delalic and Mucic

    15          took us to the manhole where there was no air.

    16      Q.  Excuse me, you said Delalic; is that correct?

    17      A.  Delic, I said Delic.   Delic and Mucic.

    18      Q.  Yes, what did they do?

    19      A.  They took us to the manhole where there was no air.

    20          Delic came and ordered half of the men outside from

    21          tunnel number nine.   Then they lined us up and we set

    22          out toward the direction.   We were not aware then that

    23          we were heading for the manhole.   Delic and Mucic were

    24          there as well as the guards escorting us, armed guards

    25          escorting us to the manhole without air.  By the

Page 5458

     1          entrance to the manhole there stood Mucic.   Mucic and

     2          Delic stood and we also had to run the gauntlet of

     3          guards before entering the manhole, who hit us in the

     4          manhole itself.   It was very cramped and we were

     5          virtually one upon another.  When we entered the manhole

     6          they closed it after.   After some time there was no

     7          more air left in the manhole and the people inside

     8          started shouting and thumping on the lid to be opened

     9          from outside.   We -- older people especially inside.

    10          Those outside were saying they would throw a bomb at

    11          us.   We asked them to do that because it was

    12          intolerable inside.  After eight hours we went out of

    13          the manhole.   We were again beaten by the guards as we

    14          exited by Mucic Pavo and Delic Hazim.  Mucic Pavo asked

    15          me as I was leaving the manhole about a guy I used to

    16          know, an acquaintance, in fact, and then after that we

    17          were returned to the tunnel, normally attended by

    18          beatings, etc.

    19      Q.  Let us go to some specific question concerning this stay

    20          in the manhole.   When you were called out of the

    21          tunnel, in order to go to the manhole how many other

    22          prisoners were called together with you?

    23      A.  I think around 16 or 17 people.   I think that was the

    24          figure.   I am not quite sure.   There may have been

    25          more or less.

Page 5459

     1      Q.  Can you mention the names at least of some of the other

     2          prisoners?

     3      A.  I can mention some of the names of the prisoners who

     4          were with me in this manhole.   There was Momir Mrkajic,

     5          Adelko Kuljanin, Nikola Mrkajic, Branislav Mrkajic,

     6          Jelenko Kuljanin, Rajko Doroic, Rajko Dordic, those are

     7          the names that I can recall.

     8      Q.  That is enough, thank you.   Did you go to the manhole

     9          which you already indicate in the model walking or with

    10          some vehicle?

    11      A.  On foot, lined up in a line, escorted by armed guards

    12          who beat us as we went along.   They beat us as we

    13          entered the manhole.

    14      Q.  Yes, Mr. Kuljanin, did Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delic walk

    15          together with you to the manhole?

    16      A.  Yes, as I already said they moved with us towards the

    17          manhole and they stood outside the manhole while we

    18          entered and they were there also when we came out eight

    19          hours later, as I have already said.

    20      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, by whom, exactly, were you ordered to enter

    21          the manhole?

    22      A.  The orders were given by Hazim Delic.

    23      Q.  Were all the guards who brought you to the manhole still

    24          present there when you entered the manhole?

    25      A.  Yes, the guards formed a gauntlet that we had to run

Page 5460

     1          through and as we did they beat us with whatever they

     2          could lay hands on up to the very entrance into the

     3          manhole.

     4      Q.  You told us the cover was closed, who closed the cover

     5          of the pit, of the manhole?

     6      A.  One of the guards closed the lid on the pit.

     7      Q.  So may I ask the witness to watch at photos, some photos

     8          in production exhibit No. 1 and precisely first photo

     9          number 38 first.   Do you recognise anything in this

    10          picture.  I think this is not the right picture, you

    11          know.   Yes, this is picture 38.   Do you recognise

    12          anything in this picture?

    13      A.  Yes, I do.   This is the manhole.

    14      Q.  Could you please go to photo number 39, please.

    15      A.  Yes, I can.

    16      Q.  Do you recognise anything?

    17      A.  That is the entrance to the pit.

    18      Q.  Could you please look at picture number 40.   What is

    19          that?

    20      A.  That is the manhole.

    21      Q.  Yes.   Photo number 41, please?

    22      A.  That is the appearance of the manhole inside, the

    23          internal appearance, the internal, an internal view of

    24          the manhole.

    25      Q.  Could you now see photo number 42, please?

Page 5461

     1      A.  It is again a view of the manhole inside.

     2      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, how many prisoners were forced to enter the

     3          manhole?

     4      A.  I already said somewhere around 16 or 17, maybe more.

     5          They were all in this manhole and you see what it looks

     6          like.

     7      Q.  How could they all fit in this manhole?

     8      A.  We were all one on top of another, like sardines in a

     9          box, all one on top of another, virtually thrown one

    10          upon another.

    11      Q.  Can you say where exactly you were inside the manhole, I

    12          mean were you down on the floor or over other prisoners?

    13      A.  I was on the floor, actually and the other prisoners

    14          were standing on my back on top of me.   Some of them

    15          were leaning with their hands against me because, as

    16          I just said, we were all one on top of another.   It was

    17          a small manhole for all these people to fit.   The

    18          actual appearance of the manhole as you can see was such

    19          that there were also pipes around it, so it was

    20          virtually impossible for all of us to fit in, but we

    21          did.

    22      Q.  Could you breathe normally inside there?

    23      A.  No, the manhole was almost automatically closed.   There

    24          was just a pipe that appeared in the surface and some

    25          air could pass through.   After some time, a guards who

Page 5462

     1          was on the outside he shut this pipe to prevent the air

     2          from coming in.   After some time people started to

     3          panic, there was no air is there.   They started begging

     4          the guard to open the lids but he refused.   He even

     5          threatened to throw a grenades into the manhole.  At the

     6          end we begged him to do that because we just could not

     7          go on like that.   There was no air; we could not

     8          breathe.

     9      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, you said you remained inside this manhole

    10          about eight hours.   Did any of the prisoners lose

    11          consciousness during these eight hours?

    12      A.  Yes, two.   They were not quite unconscious but

    13          almost.   When the lid was opened we all started

    14          climbing out an they stayed inside.   Then we shook them

    15          a little.   They came too and then they came out too.

    16      Q.  Do you know whether any of the guards remained outside

    17          of the manhole while you were in all the time?

    18      A.  Yes, a guard who was on the lid all the time throughout

    19          the eight hours that we were in the manhole.  He was

    20          sitting there, and I said we had to beat on the lid,

    21          begging him to let us get some air, but he threatened to

    22          throw a bomb, as I had said, and as we could not stand

    23          it any more we begged him to do that, but eventually the

    24          lids opened and we came out.

    25      Q.  Do you know the name of this guard who remained there

Page 5463

     1          the whole time?

     2      A.  I only know his nickname. He was known as Karavan.

     3      Q.  How many guards did you see there when you could get out

     4          of the manhole?

     5      A.  I cannot tell you the exact number, but there were quite

     6          a number of guards.  Again they made a gauntlet and we

     7          had to pass through it,.   And Delic and Mucic stood

     8          there watching them mistreating us as we came out of the

     9          manhole.

    10      Q.  You say Mr. Mucic told you something at this time; can

    11          you say exactly what did he tell you?

    12      A.  Yes, he did.   Mucic asked me about somebody whom he

    13          probably knew.   He asked me where he was, how he was.

    14          I answered that I did not know, and he said that he

    15          would come soon as well and that he would go to the

    16          manhole again.   He mentioned Snjezan.   This man was

    17          not in the camp but he said he would be joining us soon,

    18          but he did not come, this young man.   That was the

    19          question that he asked me.   That was the whole

    20          conversation that we did at that time.

    21      Q.  Did you then go back to tunnel nine?

    22      A.  Yes, when we came out of the manhole we were returned to

    23          tunnel number nine.   When we went back, the other

    24          prisoners went out and we assumed that they would be

    25          taken to the manhole as well.   The Group that was taken

Page 5464

     1          out after us was taken to the manhole, but among those

     2          who were in the manhole with me was Rajko Djordjic and

     3          he was taken with the second Group again and when he was

     4          told that he would be going there again.  He begged

     5          Mucic and Delic to kill him rather than put him back in

     6          the manhole, but they would not listen and Rajko

     7          Djordjic was back in the manhole with a second Group

     8          that spent even more than eight hours, more time than my

     9          Group had spent in it.

    10      Q.  So when did the prisoners of the second Group come back?

    11      A.  I cannot tell the exact time, but I know that they spent

    12          more time there than the first Group.

    13      Q.  After these prisoners came back did any of them tell you

    14          where they were brought?

    15      A.  Yes, they told us.

    16      Q.  What did they tell you and who?

    17      A.  Rajko Djordjic, as he was sitting next to me as I had

    18          mentioned, he was in the first Group and in the

    19          second.   So he told me that they had spent time in the

    20          manhole and that it was worse than the first time

    21          because they were kept there longer and people were

    22          losing consciousness, even more so than in the first

    23          Group and that the same procedure was followed.   The

    24          gauntlet, the beating, everything.

    25      Q.  All right.   So Mr. Kuljanin, approximately when did all

Page 5465

     1          this happen, the manhole incident, at least in which

     2          month did that happen?

     3      A.  I think it was in July.

     4      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin, is there any other incident that

     5          you personally suffered during the period of your stay

     6          in tunnel nine, I mean any other major incident you have

     7          to describe while you stayed in tunnel nine?

     8      A.  The main incident has to do with the killings that

     9          occurred in tunnel number nine.

    10      Q.  I am asking you about incidents you personally suffered,

    11          maltreatment, you probably suffered while you stayed in

    12          tunnel nine.   Do you have anything else to add to what

    13          you said so far about what you suffered probably while

    14          you were in tunnel nine?

    15      A.  I was mistreated every single day by Landzo, by Delic

    16          and the other guards.   They would take us out daily, me

    17          personally and beat us, together with other prisoners,

    18          in front of the tunnel and inside the tunnel.   This was

    19          more or less every day.

    20      Q.  All right.   Did you receive any medical care in the

    21          whole period you spent in tunnel nine?

    22      A.  Throughout my stay in tunnel number nine and tunnel

    23          number six we did not receive, I did not receive any

    24          kind of medical treatment.

    25      Q.  As far as you know and as far as you might have seen,

Page 5466

     1          did any other prisoner receive any medical care?

     2      A.  Not a single person that was with me in tunnel number

     3          nine was given any kind of medical aid or treatment.

     4          There were people who lost an eye, with broken arms,

     5          with broken legs and no medical treatment whatsoever was

     6          given to them.

     7      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin, you were mentioning something

     8          about killings.   So did you personally observe any

     9          grave mistreatment of any other prisoner while you were

    10          in tunnel nine and in particular do you know anything

    11          because of direct knowledge about the circumstances of

    12          the death of any prisoner inside the camp?

    13      A.  Yes.   If I may mention the mistreatment of other

    14          prisoners Nikola Mrkajic Sukasic and Djordje Djordjic.

    15          They were tortured by Delic and Landzo.

    16      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, this is not in response to the

    17          question.

    18      MR. TURONE:   I would say this is a response, your Honour.

    19          I asked him:  "What did you personally observe of any

    20          other grave mistreatment of any other prisoners while

    21          you were in tunnel nine and, in particular, do you know

    22          anything because of direct knowledge about the

    23          circumstances of the death?"  So I am asking the witness

    24          about mistreatments he might have eyewitnessed, not only

    25          mistreatments ending with the death, but in any case.

Page 5467

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  He said --

     2      MR. TURONE:   He said he, "I personally".

     3      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   He said he understood, not that he

     4          witnessed.

     5      MR. TURONE:   I believe that this witness eyewitnessed a

     6          number of incidents concerning other prisoners.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:  Are you giving the evidence of what he

     8          said? He has already said what he --

     9      MR. TURONE:   I am assuming that the witness has to be

    10          allowed to give the account of what he personally saw

    11          with his eyes.   I suppose he will.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   I am sorry, you were not listening.

    13          If you were listening you would have heard.   He said:

    14          "I understood certain persons were tortured".   That is

    15          what he said.

    16      MR. TURONE:   All right, Mr. Kuljanin.   Please give us the

    17          accounts of what you saw with your eyes concerning

    18          mistreatments suffered by other prisoners while you were

    19          in tunnel nine, please.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Kindly let us hear only what you saw

    21          or what you heard.

    22      A.  I want to tell you what I saw, that is what I have been

    23          saying.   I have been talking only about what I saw, and

    24          I mentioned two people who were mistreated by Delic and

    25          Landzo.   May I do that, may I talk about that?

Page 5468

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, this is what you are expected to talk

     2          about.

     3      MR. TURONE:   Go on, Mr. Kuljanin, please.

     4      A.  As regards Vukasin Mrkajic, he came to tunnel number

     5          nine with broken ribs on both sides of his chest.

     6          Those ribs were fractured by Delic.  In the tunnel

     7          itself Delic would come every day, as he had swellings

     8          on both sides because of these broken ribs Delic would

     9          hit him against those ribs to hurt him.   Then I would

    10          mention the torture of Rajko Djordjic by Delic and

    11          Landzo who tortured, beat him, beat him up with sticks,

    12          with baseball bats, with their boots, who shut him up in

    13          the manholes without water, etc etc.   This could be

    14          testified by all the prisoners who were in number nine

    15          because these mistreatments were repeated almost

    16          daily.   They would take us out to sunbathe,

    17          allegedly.   They would tell us to strip up to our

    18          waist, to line us up against a wall next to tunnel

    19          number nine.  We had to stand apart, raise our arms

    20          behind our heads.  Then Delic would come with a baseball

    21          bat, escorted by guards, who would follow him.   Then he

    22          would hit us, then the guards would hit us until we fell

    23          unconscious.  Then they would shove us back into tunnel

    24          number nine.

    25      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin.   Do you know anything because

Page 5469

     1          of direct knowledge, observation about the circumstances

     2          of the death of any prisoner inside the camp?

     3      A.  I can mention two killings in the camp that I personally

     4          eyewitnessed.   I would first like to mention the

     5          killing of Slavko Susic carried out by Senad Landzo and

     6          Hazim Delic.

     7      Q.  All right.

     8      A.  In the case of Slavko Susic, he was born in Celebici,

     9          the place where the camp itself was situated.   Slavko

    10          Susic was brought to tunnel number nine maybe a month

    11          after us and he was brought to the tunnel by Delic, who

    12          followed him in, who beat him to the very entrance and

    13          inside as well.   Delic beat him with a rubber pole

    14          somewhere halfway into the tunnel.   Slavko was all

    15          covered in blood.   He was swollen.   His eyelids were

    16          swollen.   Delic left him in tunnel number nine.   He

    17          went out and he ordered Zarko Mrkajic to investigate

    18          Slavko Susic in connection with a radio transmitter that

    19          only he knew about, claiming that Slavko Susic had this

    20          radio transmitter, receiver.   Zarko Mrkatic questioned

    21          him, talked to him nicely.   He asked him whether he had

    22          this radio transmitter.   He said that he had no idea

    23          about it, that he did not have one.   However, Delic

    24          came back two or three hours later, I cannot say exactly

    25          after how much time, and he asked Zarko whether he had

Page 5470

     1          confessed to having this radio transmitter.   As he did

     2          not have one he could not confess.   Delic took Zarko

     3          out demanding that he confess about this radio

     4          transmitter.   When this did not help Delic took Slavko

     5          out, beat him and who knows what else he did to him, but

     6          then he came into the tunnel and he said that he had

     7          admitted that he had a radio transmitter and that he was

     8          going with him to his home to bring back this radio

     9          transmitter.   They went and returned without a radio

    10          transmitter because the man did not have one.  Anyway

    11          Delic started hitting him again and said that he was

    12          lying, that he was cheating, that he did have a radio

    13          station but he refused to admit.   This beating went on,

    14          or rather Delic beat him.  Then he shoved him back into

    15          tunnel number nine.   Then Landzo came, Zenga.   He took

    16          him out in front of tunnel number nine.   He pulled his

    17          tongue with pliers.   He wrapped a fuse round his leg

    18          and his waist, setting light to it, forcing the man to

    19          admit something that he could not admit because he

    20          simply did not have such a radio transmitter.  Zenga set

    21          light to the fuse.   The man was burning.   He tortured

    22          him in various ways.   When Zenga stopped with this

    23          torture, Slavko Susic crawled on his -- on all fours

    24          into the tunnel because he simply could no longer

    25          walk.   Slavko Susic stayed there, spent the night.

Page 5471

     1          I think the next day Delic continued torturing him and

     2          beating him and that same day about 4 or 5 the man

     3          succumbed to this torture and passed away.   Slavko

     4          Susic lay there dead.  After he had died the prisoners

     5          who were sitting close to him, they dragged him near the

     6          door and positioned him in the proper position for a

     7          dead man.   He was left there for two nights and a day,

     8          after which Delic and Zenga and the guards came and

     9          accused us that we had killed Slavko Susic, after which

    10          they continued to mistreat and beat us because they had

    11          killed Slavko Susic, but they said that we had killed

    12          him, adding that:  "See what you have done to one of

    13          your own, imagine what you would do to the Muslims."

    14          Slavko Susic's body lay there for two nights and a day

    15          after which he was taken away.   What happened to him,

    16          he was probably thrown away somewhere.   I have no idea

    17          what happened to his body.

    18      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin, may we have some specific

    19          questions on this incident concerning Slavko Susic?

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Actually, I would rather let us start

    21          with a break and come back at 12, so that we will

    22          continue then.

    23      MR. TURONE:   All right, your Honour

    24                            (Short adjournment).

    25      (12 o'clock).

Page 5472

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Please remind the witness he is still

     2          under his oath.

     3      THE REGISTRAR:  May I remind you that you are still under

     4          oath?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      MR. TURONE:   May I proceed?

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you can.

     8      MR. TURONE:   So Mr. Kuljanin, let us go to some specific

     9          questions concerning the incident having to do with

    10          Slavko Susic.   You say that Mr. Susic first appeared in

    11          the tunnel one day, approximately one month after your

    12          arrival.   Can you say approximately at what time of the

    13          day did he arrive, that very first day you saw him in

    14          the tunnel?

    15      A.  I think that it was in the morning, as far as I

    16          remember.

    17      Q.  You say that Mr. Delic came and invited Zara Mrkajic to

    18          interrogate Mr. Susic; is that correct?

    19      A.  Yes, that is correct.

    20      Q.  Do you remember what did you hear Delic saying too Zara

    21          Mrkajic exactly?

    22      A.  That he was to interrogate him on account of a radio

    23          transmitter and that he had to confess where it was and

    24          that he knew everything that Susic had confessed.

    25          Normally Susic had admitted nothing because he did not

Page 5473

     1          have a radio transmitter.  He did not know of any radio

     2          transmitter so he admitted nothing of the kind.

     3      Q.  You said after that Mr. Delic came back and questioned

     4          Zara Mrkajic about the results of his interrogation; is

     5          that correct?

     6      A.  Yes, and he also beat Zara so as to force him to admit

     7          something that -- to having something he did not have.

     8          When that did not help, I have already said this, I do

     9          not know if I need repeat this, what happened then.

    10      Q.  Yes, but did Delic say anything else and ask anything

    11          else from Zara after this?

    12      A.  He asked whether he had.  The man had confessed and he

    13          beat Zara so that Zara would interrogate him again and

    14          make him confess and admit to having something that he

    15          did not have, as I have already repeated thrice.   Then

    16          Delic came and took him out and he was out with him.

    17          Then he returned to the tunnel and said that he

    18          confessed to having a radio transmitter at home.   So

    19          they went to him, his home.   They went there, stayed

    20          there some time and, of course, they did not find one.

    21          He said he was cheating and lying and that he would

    22          remember that.

    23      Q.  Did this visit to the house of Mr. Susic take place the

    24          same day or the following morning?

    25      A.  It took place on the next day, this visit.

Page 5474

     1      Q.  Do you mean in the morning or in the afternoon?

     2      A.  In the morning, around 9 o'clock.

     3      Q.  So, around 9 o'clock, did Delic come back to the tunnel?

     4      A.  Yes, I think so, with Susic.   He did, he did, after he

     5          had gone to the house with him, allegedly to get the

     6          radio transmitter.  Then he returned with him to the

     7          tunnel and beat him in the tunnel and the other man fell

     8          in the tunnel and he went there without any results.

     9      Q.  When they came back from the house of Susic, do you

    10          remember having heard something which Delic said before

    11          beating Susic in the tunnel?

    12      A.  He kept accusing him because of the radio transmitter

    13          and beating him because of the radio transmitter and the

    14          man had no idea what he was talking about.   After his

    15          death, after Susic had been killed and after he had been

    16          taken away -- I do not know where, I do not know where

    17          they had thrown him -- Delic came back and in front of

    18          all of us who were there incarcerated in tunnel number

    19          nine, he said:

    20                "Let me tell you something, from my private life."

    21                He said that allegedly his grandfather in his

    22          village in the time of the Second World War had killed

    23          several people and that he had taken revenge upon Susic

    24          for that, and Susic ended the way that he had.  That is

    25          all that he said in connection with Susic.

Page 5475

     1      Q.  Going back to this morning when Delic and Susic came

     2          back from the house of Susic, with what did Delic beat

     3          Susic inside the tunnel on this occasion?

     4      A.  He beat him with some sort of a rubber stick.

     5      Q.  For how long did he beat him on this occasion?

     6      A.  He beat him in the tunnel, starting from the door and

     7          then halfway inside the tunnel until he fell.   Then he

     8          left.

     9      Q.  You said that later on Zenga came; can you say at

    10          approximately what time of this day did Zenga come?

    11      A.  Well, as we had a very poor sense of orientation in

    12          terms of time of day and dates, I really cannot remember

    13          exactly the time and the exact hour when this took

    14          place.   I cannot remember.

    15      Q.  All right.   You said something about Zenga using pliers

    16          with the tongue of Mr. Susic; what did Zenga do with the

    17          tongue of Mr. Susic as far as you could see?

    18      A.  He pulled out the tongue, his tongue, with pliers and

    19          twisted it.   Then he used later a slow burning fuse to

    20          torture him with, as I have already described.   I do

    21          not know whether I need repeat that.   Of course, I can

    22          do that.

    23      Q.  I just have some specific questions:  you were talking

    24          about fuse around the leg and around the waist?

    25      A.  Yes.

Page 5476

     1      Q.  Can you describe exactly what did Zenga do with this

     2          fuse or fuses?  How many fuses were there - one or two

     3          different fuses?

     4      A.  There were two fuses which were the same.   He put one

     5          around his leg and one around his belly under the

     6          shirt.  Then he ignited them.   Of course it started

     7          burning the man's skin and he started screaming and

     8          begging him to take them off.   However, the fuse burned

     9          and did the damage it did, burning the man's skin.

    10      Q.  How did Mr. Landzo fix the fuses to the body?  Did he fix

    11          them in some way or simply wrap them?

    12      A.  On the leg he fastened them with some Scotch tape, I

    13          believe, and as regards the one around the belly, he

    14          just wrapped it under his shirt.

    15      Q.  So the fuses were wrapped around the skin, not over the

    16          clothes; is that correct?

    17      A.  Yes, around the skin.

    18      Q.  How did Zenga light the two fuses, with what?

    19      A.  He had a match box and he used a match to ignite the

    20          fuses.   They normally started burning, and affecting

    21          the body.

    22      Q.  Did the fuses around Susic's leg and waist burn entirely

    23          or were they put off?

    24      A.  Yes, they burnt entirely.

    25      Q.  What did Zenga do in the meantime?

Page 5477

     1      A.  In the meantime, while the fuse was burning, he hit the

     2          man.

     3      Q.  With what?

     4      A.  He kicked him and he also hit him with the rifle butt.

     5      Q.  Did Mr. Landzo say anything while beating him during this

     6          treatment?

     7      A.  He asked him about the radio transmitter and kept

     8          insisting that he say where it was, but he obviously

     9          could not; and then he faired as he did.

    10      Q.  Approximately how long did this treatment last?

    11      A.  Certainly over 45 minutes, the burnings, the torture and

    12          the pulling out of the tongue, in my assessment, perhaps

    13          a bit longer.

    14      Q.  Could Mr. Susic move by himself after this treatment?

    15      A.  After Zenga's treatment, Landzo's treatment, that is,

    16          Susic crawled on all-fours towards the place where he

    17          had been sitting before in the rear of the tunnel, and

    18          he crawled back to that place on all-fours.

    19      Q.  How long did Mr. Susic remain at his place after this

    20          treatment?

    21      A.  Mr. Susic, I am not quite sure of the time, but he stayed

    22          there until Delic came, and when he came, he started

    23          beating and maltreating him again and maltreating him

    24          again about the radio transmitter. The man could not

    25          even speak.   He could not seen scream because he was on

Page 5478

     1          the verge of death, as it were.   Then he stopped

     2          after.  They stopped beating him.  He died after a

     3          couple of hours.   The prisoners, when they saw that he

     4          was showing no signs of life, took him to the front end

     5          of the tunnel and there placed him in a position

     6          befitting a dead man.

     7      Q.  Yes, you said this already, Mr. Kuljanin.   Do you mean

     8          Mr. Delic beat Susic inside the tunnel in the place where

     9          Susic was sitting?

    10      A.  Yes.   Let me just go back to the beginning, before

    11          Susic came to the tunnel and before his death and all

    12          this torture he had already been beaten black and blue

    13          and bloody and swollen before he had come to the

    14          tunnel.   This all took place in the tunnel, and in

    15          front of the tunnel, in front of the tunnel Landzo

    16          tortured him and inside the tunnel Delic did.

    17      Q.  I am talking about the last time Delic beat Susic inside

    18          the tunnel?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  Did Delic say anything before beating Susic and during

    21          the beating, I mean, during this last beating?

    22      A.  Yes, he did.   He said that the Chetnik would not

    23          confess to having a radio station and to having guided

    24          shells to Celebici.   In fact, I did not hear of a

    25          single shell landing at Celebici, but allegedly this man

Page 5479

     1          had been guiding them.

     2      Q.  When did you realise that Susic was dead?

     3      A.  I realised that when these people who were sitting near

     4          him said that he was dead, that he was not showing signs

     5          of life any longer.   Then this news was transmitted

     6          from prisoner to prisoner and I could definitively see

     7          he was dead when they brought him to the front end of

     8          the tunnel, where he lay for two days unmoving or,

     9          rather, dead.

    10      Q.  So you mean that the body lay on the floor of the tunnel

    11          right near you; is that correct?

    12      A.  Yes, right in front of me.   My legs were over his body.

    13      Q.  Okay.   So, could you personally observe that Susic did

    14          not have any sign of life any more, was motionless?

    15      A.  Yes, he was rigid.   He was stiff for two days and two

    16          nights.   He was obviously rigid.

    17      Q.  You said the body remained there for a couple of days;

    18          is that correct?

    19      A.  Yes, two days and two nights.   It was completely blue,

    20          as if he had taken an ink bath.

    21      Q.  What injuries were visible on the body, as far as you

    22          could see?

    23      A.  As I have already stated, he was bruised and blue, and

    24          he had a cut on his lips, probably from the pliers with

    25          which his tongue had been pulled out.   In addition to

Page 5480

     1          that, his eyes were totally swollen and shut from the

     2          blows normally.

     3      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, were the burns visible on the leg and on

     4          the waist?

     5      A.  Yes, they were visible, quite conspicuous in fact, the

     6          burns on the leg and on the body elsewhere, and the

     7          shirt which he had been wearing was torn.

     8      Q.  After the body of Susic was finally removed, did you

     9          ever see it again after that or never again?

    10      A.  No, never again did I see that body.

    11      Q.  All right.   So, this is, I would say, the end of the

    12          Susic's incident.

    13                Did you eyewitness any other incident concerning

    14          any other prisoner who died?

    15      A.  I would like to mention the murder, the killing of

    16          Zeljko Milosevic.   I should also like in that

    17          connection to mention some journalists and the camera

    18          crew which came to the prison.   I cannot remember

    19          exactly what country they had come from, but they came

    20          to film the prisoners, that is us.   Delic called Rayko

    21          Dordzic and Zeljko Milosevic to be filmed by the camera

    22          and to tell the journalist and the TV crew and that took

    23          place in front of tunnel number nine, to tell them how

    24          they had tortured Muslim women and raped Muslim women

    25          and tortured and killed children, but Zeljko Milosevic

Page 5481

     1          would not admit anything of the kind and would not make

     2          any such statement on that score and Rajko Dordzic also

     3          could not confess to doing something that he had not

     4          done.   Delic returned them to tunnel number nine, from

     5          which they had come, and when the journalists had left,

     6          he entered the tunnel again and said that they would

     7          remember him well.   Zeljko, however, remained for

     8          another couple of days in the tunnel.   Delic then came

     9          and told him to get ready around 1 pm.   Then Delic came

    10          and called Milosevic.   I cannot say exactly when he

    11          came.   It was night.   It was perhaps midnight or 2

    12          o'clock am.   It was pitch dark.   He took Zeljko out

    13          personally.   He called him to come out and took him

    14          out.   After they had gone out, we heard Zeljko

    15          screaming and moaning and crying out.   In the morning

    16          when they took us out to go to the toilet, Zeljko

    17          Milosevic was behind the door lying there dead.   We saw

    18          him as we passed on our way to the toilet.  But let me

    19          mention in this connection, before they kill him Zeljko

    20          Milosevic had been shut down in a manhole filled with

    21          water with Rajko Djordjic, where he had spent the whole

    22          night.   When he returned from the manhole, he was

    23          soaking wet.   I had a track suit, and as his clothes were

    24          wet, I gave him my track suite as a change of clothes so

    25          that he could put something dry on.

Page 5482

     1                Now to connect this to the murder, when I saw him

     2          he was wearing my track suit, and another, some sort of a

     3          parka, was also draped over his head.   I recognised him

     4          and I could tell that it was Zeljko Milosevic by the

     5          fact that he was wearing that suit.

     6      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin, let me ask some specific

     7          questions on this incident.   Approximately when did

     8          this incident happen, at least in which month?

     9      A.  I spent around 110 days in the tunnel.   All this took

    10          place during this 110 days which I spent there.

    11          Whether it was the beginning or July or the end of June,

    12          I cannot really tell.   I do not orient myself really

    13          quite well, because we really, at least as far as

    14          I myself am concerned, cannot remember these more

    15          important dates because I could not orient myself in the

    16          space of time there.   So I cannot say exactly.

    17          Possibly, it was the end of June or July, but his

    18          killing took place after Slavko Susic's incident.

    19      Q.  After the Slavko Susic's incident?

    20      A.  Yes, after that.

    21      Q.  Where did Zeljko Milosevic sit inside the tunnel?

    22      A.  Zeljko Milosevic sat somewhere in the middle of the

    23          tunnel, halfway down the tunnel in the middle of the

    24          tunnel.

    25      Q.  So you say that the night of his death he was called out

Page 5483

     1          by Mr. Delic in the night and you heard screaming.   For

     2          how long did you hear screaming from outside?

     3      A.  Yes, we heard him screaming for over an hour.   I am not

     4          quite sure how long over an hour, but it was an hour at

     5          least and longer than that.   So he had actually

     6          forewarned him of what was to come and told him to be

     7          ready at 1, and that was what happened.

     8      Q.  You say that in the morning, going to the toilet outside

     9          you saw the body outside of the tunnel entrance.   Did

    10          you see the body, both going to the toilet and coming

    11          back from the toilet?

    12      A.  Yes, it was there on our way and when we were coming

    13          back to the tunnel, both times.

    14      Q.  Can you say approximately how many minutes had passed

    15          between the time you saw the body while going to the

    16          toilet and the time you saw the body while coming back

    17          from the toilet?

    18      A.  All this took place within the space of five or six

    19          minutes.   Our time also was limited when it came to our

    20          going to the toilet.

    21      Q.  Was the body in the same position both times and was it

    22          motionless?

    23      A.  It was motionless and it was in the same position both

    24          times.

    25      Q.  You say that you could recognise Milosevic by the

Page 5484

     1          garment you lent him, yes?

     2      A.  Yes, I recognise the Milosevic by the clothing which I

     3          had lent him and his sneakers which he used to wear when

     4          he was alive and when he stayed in the tunnel with the

     5          rest of us.

     6      Q.  Was the face of Mr. Milosevic covered?

     7      A.  His face was covered up to his forehead.   He was

     8          bald.   He only had some hair on the back of his head

     9          and I also recognised him by that.

    10      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, did you ever have a chance to see again

    11          Zeljko Milosevic or his body after this?

    12      A.  No, no, I did not.

    13      Q.  Thank you very much.   Now, did you personally -- did

    14          you ever see any of the guards coming to tunnel nine

    15          while you were there, beside the occasions you have been

    16          talking about so far?

    17      A.  I did not understand the question; if you would be kind

    18          to repeat it.

    19      Q.  Did you see the guards or any of the guards coming to

    20          tunnel nine while you were there on other occasions

    21          besides the occasions you have been already talking

    22          about until now?

    23      A.  Yes, the guards stood at the door and some soldiers,

    24          some uniformed persons, would come in and beat us.

    25          They were people whom we did not know.  The guards

Page 5485

     1          themselves did not come inside number nine often, but

     2          they did take us out in front of tunnel nine and beat us

     3          there because they did not have enough space inside.

     4      Q.  All right, thank you.  So, Mr. Kuljanin, you said you

     5          stayed in the tunnel for about 100 to 120 days; did

     6          you stay in any other building inside the detention camp

     7          besides tunnel nine?

     8      A.  I stayed in hangar number six.   Let me just mention

     9          one other thing which happened while I was still in

    10          tunnel number nine.   As I have already said, there were

    11          around 30 to 40 of us prisoners in tunnel number nine.

    12          After 90 or 100 days Pavo Mucic came with some kind of a

    13          list and he singled out a number of the prisoners from

    14          tunnel number nine and he had them lined up in front of

    15          the tunnel.   Thereafter, he transferred them to hangar

    16          number six.   I remained in tunnel number nine with

    17          another 17 men and after this Hazim Delic, entered the

    18          tunnel number nine and said to us that we had been left

    19          there for the mine fields and that we would never leave

    20          the tunnel except when we head for the mine fields.

    21          Normally we thought that that would naturally be our

    22          fate, as we could not expect anything better in view of

    23          the treatment that we were receiving and the conditions

    24          that prevailed there.   However, it did happen that we

    25          got out ourselves after 10 or 15 days out of tunnel

Page 5486

     1          number nine and were transferred ourselves to hangars

     2          number six as well.

     3      Q.  So can you say approximately when did you move to

     4          hangar six, at least in what month?

     5      A.  I think it must have been September.

     6      Q.  Who called you out of the tunnel in order to bring you

     7          to hangar six?

     8      A.  Mucic left us in the tunnel and one of the guards came

     9          to take us out from number nine and to transfer us to

    10          hangar number six.   Who gave the orders, I really do

    11          not know, for this transfer to hangar number six, I do

    12          not know.

    13      Q.  How long did you stay inside hangar six, approximately?

    14      A.  I stayed in hangar number six three, three-and-a-half,

    15          maybe four months, I am not quite sure.  After which, I

    16          was transferred to the Musala camp in Konjic.   When we

    17          were transferred to hangar number six, as I said, 17 of

    18          us, 17 prisoners, that same night the guards came, named

    19          Zilic and Camdzic were among them, and they started

    20          calling out names from the list of 17 people from number

    21          nine and to beat us.   They beat us for several nights

    22          running, just those of us who had come from number

    23          nine.   And they said that they were doing so under

    24          orders of the Command.   I did not recognise many of the

    25          guards who were participating in this who were beating

Page 5487

     1          us during those nights, except for Landzo, Dedic and

     2          Camdzic.   I could not recognise the others because it

     3          was nighttime and we had to face the wall against the

     4          hangar, so I could not see them.

     5      Q.  Did you personally suffer any other physical

     6          maltreatment during your stay in hanger six?

     7      A.  I could mention one of those cases of maltreatment in

     8          hanger number six was when we were taken to steal some

     9          goods for Mucic from the neighbouring hangar, next to

    10          hangar number six.   We were taken out of the hangars.

    11          I was taken out together with four other men during the

    12          night by Sejo -- I do not recall his surname -- and he

    13          took us to the neighbouring hangar where there was

    14          food.  And we had to steal that food and we found

    15          hangar -- we found Mucic there.  He ordered us to load

    16          this food on to his van and he transported those goods

    17          to his home with this van.   We would go home with him

    18          and unload this stuff to his basement or garage.   This

    19          happened twice.   The first night that this took place

    20          we returned just before dawn to the hangars, I think it

    21          was about five o'clock.  The guards came that night

    22          again and the four of us who went were beaten.   Among

    23          the guards were Camdzic and Zilic.   I do not recall the

    24          names of the others.   When we went the second time to

    25          steal or to take, whichever you prefer, these goods,

Page 5488

     1          again it was night time, Sejo came and three others.  I

     2          can give you the names.  I remember Radovan Mr.sic, Relja

     3          Mrkajic and Radovan.

     4      Q.  The doctor?

     5      A.  No, no doctor, no.  It was not the doctor and Radovan

     6          Mrkajic.  That second night we were stealing again and

     7          when we -- the next night Hazim Delic came to the

     8          hangar and said those four who went on a tour the

     9          previous night should come out.   We knew that he meant

    10          us, but we did not go out straight away.   Then he

    11          called us out by name.  When we went out, he ordered us

    12          to face the wall and he started beating us together with

    13          some other guards, whom I did not see.   Those were some

    14          of the incidents I experienced with the exception of

    15          spades, with which Delic beat us, for instance, until we

    16          were virtually unconscious.

    17      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, let me ask you a specific question on these

    18          incident that you have been talking about right now.

    19          You have been talking about two visits to the house of

    20          Mr. Mucic with a van.   Who was driving the van on these

    21          two occasions?

    22      A.  Mucic.

    23      Q.  Who was in the van besides Mucic?

    24      A.  There was us, who went to steal the goods, to take those

    25          goods on his behalf, to steal them on his behalf, and

Page 5489

     1          the guards.

     2      Q.  Now let us talk about what happened after the second

     3          time when you said that the following evening Delic came

     4          and asked for the people who were on tower.   What did

     5          Delic say exactly in this occasion?

     6      A.  When we came out and when he started beating us together

     7          with the guards with him, he said that these blows, some

     8          were for the flowers, some were for the chocolate.  He

     9          kept listing the things we had taken.   I do not even

    10          remember.   In any event, it was food stuffs that he was

    11          referring to, and as far as I could see.

    12      Q.  With what did they beat you?

    13      A.  They beat us with rifle butts, with their boots, with

    14          sticks.

    15      Q.  How long did they beat you?

    16      A.  About half an hour, 40 minutes.   They beat some more,

    17          some less; it depended.

    18      Q.  What about these two occasions you brought food to the

    19          house of Mr. Mucic, were two occasions close to each

    20          other?  How many days, how many...

    21      A.  A couple of days approximately in between.

    22      Q.  And, very approximately, when did all this happen, at

    23          least in which month?

    24      A.  No, I really cannot remember what month it was.

    25      Q.  All right, never mind.   So what else -- did you

Page 5490

     1          personally suffer any other physical maltreatment

     2          besides all this during your stay in hangar six?

     3      A.  Yes, the perpetrator was Hazim Delic.   He beat me with

     4          a shovel with his boots; he kicked me, all kinds of

     5          things; he took me out; he beat me inside; in addition,

     6          when he beat all of us with the shovel, together with

     7          his guards -- and the names I could mention is Camdzic

     8          and Zilic.   This happened very frequently, almost every

     9          other day.

    10      Q.  All right.   Is this all, was there any other incident

    11          you suffered personally while during the period of your

    12          stay in hangar six, is this all?  You have some other

    13          incident to talk about?

    14      A.  To tell you the truth, there were instances almost every

    15          day when Delic with his guards would hit us with

    16          shovels, with the handles of shovels.   This was

    17          happening almost every day that we were staying, that we

    18          stayed in hangars number six in Celebici.

    19      Q.  Was there any other time you were called out of the

    20          hangar?

    21      A.  I could mention also, yes, when we were taken to clean

    22          up in front of Delalic's house.   There were guards,

    23          security people, and a man in civilian clothes came in

    24          and pointed to four or five prisoners.   I was one of

    25          them.   He just pointed and we had to follow him.   We

Page 5491

     1          did not know where we were going.   When we got into the

     2          jeep that took us there, we arrived in Konjic in front

     3          of Delalic's house.  It was raining and there was some

     4          sand and some stones there and we had to clean it up.

     5          With me was Dragan Dordic, Milan Gligorovic, Boran

     6          Mrkajic and Zeljko Kuljanin.   When we arrived in front

     7          of Delalic's house there was very strong security.

     8          There was some close -- with crew cuts, there was some

     9          men with crew cuts and they were -- the men were saying

    10          to us that we would never be released, we would have to

    11          work for Delalic for as long as we lived.   They were

    12          beating us all the time.   We were clearing up there.

    13          They would beat us, kick us, they would say these

    14          things, threatening us that where he would never get

    15          out, that we would have to work for Delalic for as long

    16          as we lived.

    17      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, can you describe the place where they

    18          brought you, this house?

    19      A.  They took us to the town of Konjic, where the house of

    20          the mentioned person was at the entrance to the town,

    21          the beginning of the town.  That's where his house

    22          was.   We had to clean up.   We were mistreated and

    23          threatened and we took these threats very seriously.

    24      Q.  I mean, can you describe this place with more detail?

    25          What was around the house?

Page 5492

     1      A.  The house, near the house is a hotel, across the street,

     2          a petrol station.   Between the hotel and that house

     3          there is a parking lot.   Next to the house is the

     4          Neretva river flowing.   The house is on the main Mostar

     5          to Sarajevo road.   That is the building.

     6      Q.  How do you know this was the house of Mr. Delalic?

     7      A.  Actually, before the war, they there used to be a

     8          mechanics shop.  Then there was a discotechque there

     9          that I used to go to.   And I would drive there together

    10          with a colleague to that discotechque, so I knew it very

    11          well.   I know exactly where it was and what it looked

    12          like.

    13      Q.  Do you know the first name of Mr. Delalic?

    14      A.  Yes, I do:  Zejnil Delalic.

    15      Q.  How long did this cleaning last?

    16      A.  The cleaning lasted about three or four hours, four,

    17          something like that.

    18      Q.  How many guards were around the place there where you

    19          were cleaning up?

    20      A.  Well, roughly about 10 - 10 or so guards, well, armed

    21          guards, very well equipped, around the house and in

    22          front of the house.

    23      Q.  Were they in uniform?

    24      A.  Yes, they were in uniform and well armed.   It was like

    25          a combat equipment that they were wearing.

Page 5493

     1      Q.  Can you say which kind of an uniform did they wear?

     2      A.  They had camouflage uniforms, standard camouflage

     3          uniforms, with the insignia, their insignia with the

     4          lillies.

     5      Q.  How did these guards treat you during the cleaning of

     6          the house?

     7      A.  I have already said that they hit us, that they beat us,

     8          that they threatened us, that they said that we would

     9          spend our life working for Delalic and that everything

    10          depended on him - our future fate depended on him.

    11      Q.  Could you say with what did they beat you?

    12      A.  They kicked us an they beat us with rifles.

    13      Q.  At the end of it, who drove you back to Celebici?

    14      A.  One of the soldiers who was there, they drove us back,

    15          he drove us back.

    16      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin, did you know Mr. Delic from

    17          before the war?

    18      A.  By sight.

    19      Q.  Could you observe what official role did Mr. Delic have

    20          in the Celebici camp?

    21      A.  Delic's role was to stand in for Mucic when he was not

    22          there.   He was the one who had the main say.

    23      Q.  How did you get to know Mr. Delic's name?

    24      A.  I learnt of his name from the prisoners who were in

    25          tunnel number nine.   Some of those prisoners had worked

Page 5494

     1          with Delic for years.   They were colleagues, and that

     2          is how I learnt his name.

     3      Q.  Can you describe physically, Mr. Delic?

     4      A.  I can.  He is tall, bald, strong built, that is it.

     5      Q.  Did you know Mr. Landzo from before the war?

     6      A.  I did not know him from before the war.   I met him at

     7          the camp itself.

     8      Q.  How did you get to know Landzo's name and nickname

     9          "Zenga"?

    10      A.  We heard others calling him by that name, his colleagues

    11          who helped him do the work he was doing.

    12      Q.  Can you describe Mr. Landzo?

    13      A.  I can.

    14      Q.  Yes, please do that.

    15      A.  He was at the time in the camp, he was short, thin, with

    16          short hair, very short hair at the time while he was in

    17          the camp.

    18      Q.  Do you know what was the role of Mr. Mucic inside the

    19          Celebici camp?

    20      A.  His role was, I think he was the commander, the

    21          manager.   I do not know, but anyway his word meant a

    22          lot.   He would make lists for the exchange and things

    23          like that.

    24      Q.  Did you see him --

    25      A.  He would determine the groups.

Page 5495

     1      Q.  Did you see him in the camp besides the two occasions

     2          you just mentioned?

     3      A.  Yes, I saw him quite a number of times.

     4      Q.  Where in the camp did you see him?

     5      A.  Within the camp grounds.   Very often he would drive a

     6          motorbike round the grounds.   I would also see him

     7          coming by car.   He was there very often.   He would go

     8          to the command building.   I would see him with a

     9          camera.

    10      Q.  Do you remember very approximately when you saw Mr. Mucic

    11          for the first time, at least in which month?

    12      A.  I cannot remember.   I cannot.

    13      Q.  Did Mr. Mucic use to wear a uniform?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Could you say which kind of a uniform?

    16      A.  A camouflage uniform like all the others who were in the

    17          camp, including the guards and all the others.

    18      Q.  Did you ever notice any insignia on his uniform?

    19      A.  Insignia, no, I did not see them.

    20      Q.  Did Mr. Mucic ever talk to you besides what you have

    21          already said?

    22      A.  He did not talk to me.   On one occasion he spoke to me

    23          in connection with an exchange.   That was a very brief

    24          conversation and that was all I talked to him about.

    25      Q.  All right, Mr. Kuljanin.   Were you ever interrogated by

Page 5496

     1          military investigators during your stay in Celebici?

     2      A.  At the beginning.

     3      Q.  Where in the camp did that happen?

     4      A.  In the command building.

     5      Q.  How many people did interrogate you?

     6      A.  There were two people who interrogated us and who

     7          escorted us to the office and stood as security while we

     8          were being investigated.   Of course we were tied up.

     9      Q.  Do you remember the names of these two people

    10          interrogating you?

    11      A.  I do not remember their names.

    12      Q.  Were these two people in uniform?

    13      A.  Yes, they were in uniform.

    14      Q.  And was there a long interrogation?

    15      A.  So so, half an hour.

    16      Q.  How were you treated during the interrogation by these

    17          two people?

    18      A.  During the interrogation they were very aggressive and

    19          rude.   They would not accept anything that we said that

    20          did not suit them.

    21      Q.  By the way were you accused of anything specific by

    22          these two people?

    23      A.  I do not know, I have know idea.   Obviously I must have

    24          been accused since I spent so much time there.   They

    25          probably did.   They charged me with my nationality.

Page 5497

     1          They had no other grounds.

     2      Q.  What did they ask you, do you remember some questions

     3          they asked you?

     4      A.  For instance, are you a member of the SDS, are you a

     5          member of this, are you a member of that.   All manner

     6          of things.   I really do not remember the details.

     7      Q.  What did you answer?

     8      A.  Talking about this question whether I was a member of

     9          the SDS. At that time I really was not. So I had no

    10          reason to hide it and I had no reason to say I was if I

    11          was not, but when I said that I was not a member of the

    12          SDS they started yelling and shouting saying "you are

    13          all members.  You are all Chetniks," this and that. So

    14          they had to accept at the time that I was not a member

    15          of the SDS. I am today, I am a member and I am not

    16          concealing the fact.

    17      Q.  Was anybody typing a record during the interrogation?

    18      A.  At the time no, no, there was no one.

    19      Q.  During the interrogation were your hands free or tied?

    20      A.  We were tied.  My hands were tied behind my back during

    21          the first interrogation.

    22      Q.  Well, we will talk about the second occasion later on.

    23          So did anybody untie your hands during this

    24          interrogation?

    25      A.  No, they did not.

Page 5498

     1      Q.  Were your hands tied with a rope or with handcuffs?

     2      A.  Some with wires, some with ropes. My hands were tied

     3          with wire.

     4      Q.  Did you sign any piece of paper after that

     5          interrogation?

     6      A.  A couple of days later I signed a piece of paper. I have

     7          no idea what it says on that paper.

     8      Q.  So what happened a couple of days later?  When did you

     9          go, when did you sign this piece of paper?

    10      A.  I cannot remember exactly how much later this was to the

    11          time when we made this statement, or rather we signed it

    12          without even reading it. I cannot remember how much time

    13          went by. Roughly three or four, maybe five days.

    14      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, my question is: where, in which place did

    15          you put your signature on this paper?

    16      A.  At the bottom of the paper.

    17      Q.  No, no --

    18      A.  In the command building. In the command building where

    19          we made the statement the first time.

    20      Q.  So, were you brought to the command building again with

    21          hands tied behind the back or not?

    22      A.  Yes, we were tied, but this time in front and not with

    23          wire, but with ropes this time.

    24      Q.  Did they untie your hands in order to have you sign the

    25          record?

Page 5499

     1      A.  Our hands were untied for us to sign the paper. Then

     2          they tied us up again until we were taken back to the

     3          tunnel.

     4      Q.  Could you read the record before signing it?

     5      A.  No, I did not.

     6      Q.  Was there any judicial proceedings against you after

     7          that?

     8      A.  Against some there were judicial proceedings, but not

     9          against me.

    10      Q.  All right. So Mr. Kuljanin, did the Red Cross ever visit

    11          the camp while you were in Celebici?

    12      A.  The Red Cross came several times to the Celebici camp.

    13      Q.  What happened before, during and after these visits?

    14      A.  When the Red Cross came for the first time to register

    15          us, to see us, we were so happy, so glad, but when the

    16          Red Cross left, when they departed from the camp, we

    17          were tortured so badly and persecuted that the next time

    18          they came we did not want to even look at them, not to

    19          mention speak to them because we had this terrible

    20          experience from their first visit, but the Red Cross

    21          promised that we would have no problems, that we would

    22          talk without the presence of the guards and the other

    23          staff of the camp, but when they left they continued

    24          beating us, saying that we had said this or that and all

    25          kinds of things. So that the second time we did not

Page 5500

     1          want, nor did we dare to talk to them.

     2      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   I think the Trial Chamber will break

     3          here and we will resume at 2.30 for the afternoon

     4          session.

     5                         (The Luncheon Adjournment).

     6      (2.30 pm).

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Good afternoon, ladies and

     8          gentlemen.   So we continue from where we stopped.

     9      MR. TURONE:   Thank you, your Honour.

    10      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Inform the witness that he is still on

    11          his oath.

    12      THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Kuljanin, may I remind you that you are

    13          still on your oath?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Carry on.

    16      MR. TURONE:   Thank you, your Honour.   Mr. Kuljanin, during

    17          your stay in Celebici did you ever learn Mr. Landzo's

    18          first name?

    19      A.  No, nor was I interested.

    20      Q.  Did you used to call him with a nickname?

    21      A.  No.

    22      Q.  Going back to your arrest, Mr. Kuljanin, did anybody take

    23          your valuables on the occasion of your arrest?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  What did they take from you?

Page 5501

     1      A.  They took a ring and a bracelet from me.

     2      Q.  Did you ever get your property back?

     3      A.  No.

     4      Q.  After your stay in Celebici, can you say when did you

     5          leave Celebici camp?

     6      A.  I can't say exactly -- I cannot say exactly, but I

     7          believe it was the November, beginning of December.

     8      Q.  Of 1992?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  What happened to you when you left Celebici?

    11      A.  I was transferred to the Musala camp at Konjic.

    12      Q.  How long did you stay in the Musala camp?

    13      A.  Until the 3rd November 1993.

    14      Q.  Was that the day when you were released from any kind of

    15          detention?

    16      A.  Yes I alone was released from the Musala camp.

    17      Q.  All right, thank you very much, Mr. Kuljanin?

    18      A.  You are welcome.

    19      Q.  This is the end of my examination-in-chief, your Honour,

    20          thank you very much?

    21      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Any cross-examination and the pattern

    22          in which you are agreed to take.

    23      MR. O'SULLIVAN:   Yes, we will proceeds this way first

    24          counsel for Mr. Delic, second counsel for Mr. Landzo,

    25          third counsel for Mr. Delalic and fourth counsel for

Page 5502

     1          Mr. Mucic

     2          Cross-examination by Mr. Moran.

     3      MR. MORAN:  Your Honour, if I could have a second to get

     4          situated and plugged in.   May it please the Court.

     5      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you can.

     6      Q.  Thank you, your Honour.   Good afternoon, sir.

     7      A.  Good afternoon.

     8      Q.  My name is Tom Moran and I am a defence lawyer here and

     9          I am going to ask you some questions.   Will you listen

    10          to the question that I ask and just answer that

    11          question.   Can you do that for me, sir?

    12      A.  Yes, sir.

    13      Q.  The other thing is, if you do not understand one of my

    14          questions, if I talk too fast or if my questions are

    15          hard to understand or you do not know what I am asking,

    16          will you stop me and ask me to repeat it?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  Okay.   So that you will not have any problems

    19          understanding the question.   So there will not be any

    20          surprises, generally I am going it ask you questions

    21          pretty much in the order of the things that you were

    22          asked by Mr. Turone.   So there will not be any

    23          surprises, but the first thing that I am going to ask

    24          you about is the last thing you talked about.   You said

    25          you were released from Musala on November 3rd 1993,

Page 5503

     1          right?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  That is not quite true, is it?

     4      A.  I did not say that I was released.   I actually

     5          liberated myself from the camp and the torture that I

     6          was being subjected to.   No one released me.

     7      Q.  Yes, in fact you and several other people overpowered

     8          the guards and escaped, did you not?

     9      A.  Yes, we did.

    10      Q.  So if someone would have understood you to say that you

    11          were released, that would be a misunderstanding, would

    12          it not?

    13      A.  Yes, I was not released.

    14      Q.  In fact when you overpowered that guards you took his

    15          weapon, did you not?

    16      A.  Yes, I did I took it.

    17      Q.  You kidnapped him too, did you not?

    18      A.  No, I did not, we did not.   We let him go.   We acted

    19          humanely towards him.   We let him go home.

    20      Q.  Where did you take him from the camp before you let him

    21          go home?

    22      A.  He had truly led us.   It was not us that led him.   He

    23          was the one that had led us to the front line to dig

    24          trenches, but we took our chance, we disarmed him and we

    25          took him with us until we saw that we were safe.  Then

Page 5504

     1          we let him go back to his home.   We said goodbye to him

     2          in a humane fashion.  We told him to tell the real truth

     3          about how we had treated him.   Then we went on our way

     4          and crossed over to Croatian territory.   The Croatian

     5          Army took us in.   They were good to us.  We spent a

     6          couple of hours.   They gave us some food.   Then they

     7          let us go on towards the Serbian territory.

     8      Q.  Okay.  Let us go back to the Battle of Bradina, if we

     9          could, okay.   Can you do that for me?  Did you have any

    10          weapons?

    11      A.  I personally did not have any.

    12      Q.  None at all?

    13      A.  No, none at all.

    14      Q.  Not even a fully automatic 7.62 millimetres rifle?

    15      A.  No.

    16      Q.  The only weapons that were there in the whole city were

    17          a few pistols and hunting rifles.  That is what you

    18          testified to under direct examination, all right?

    19      A.  As far as I know, yes.

    20      Q.  You were pretty familiar with what was going on in

    21          Bradina, were you not?

    22      A.  What was going on, I am sorry?

    23      Q.  You were pretty well familiar with what kind of weapons

    24          people had in Bradina, were you not?

    25      A.  Sorry, I did not understand the question.

Page 5505

     1      Q.  Sure.   If people had weapons in Bradina, you pretty

     2          well knew about it.   You had a pretty good idea about

     3          what various people had?

     4      A.  I knew some people who had personal weapons and I knew

     5          some who went hunting and had hunting weapons.

     6      Q.  But you never saw any military-type weapons anywhere in

     7          the city; is that right?

     8      A.  No.

     9      Q.  So if they would have been around, you would have seen

    10          them, would you not?

    11      A.  Absolutely, I would have.

    12      Q.  Your Honour, there is a series of photographs, I believe

    13          Delic exhibits, the weapons photographs, if those could

    14          be shown to the witness - just the ones that are in

    15          evidence.   I am going to ask you to take a look at some

    16          pictures and see if there were any of these at all in

    17          Bradina, okay?

    18      A.  I can take a look at them.

    19      Q.  By the way, before they come over there, you are

    20          familiar with military weapons because of your service

    21          in the military police; is that not right?

    22      A.  Absolutely.

    23      Q.  That service in the military police --

    24      A.  I served with the Yugoslavia People's Army in 1987 and

    25          1988 prior to the war - just to clarify.

Page 5506

     1      Q.  I was going to get to that next.   You served your two

     2          years of compulsory service in the Yugoslav National

     3          Army?

     4      A.  One year.

     5      Q.  You are being shown a group of pictures.   If you go

     6          through those and see if you recollect any of those

     7          weapons as weapons you saw in Bradina before the Battle

     8          of Bradina?

     9      A.  No, this one I saw when I was serving in the Yugoslav

    10          People Army.   This one I've never seen.

    11      Q.  Okay, that's fine.   I believe there is some more

    12          pictures coming.

    13      A.  This one I also saw while I was serving in the army.

    14      Q.  But not in Bradina, prior to the Battle of Bradina?

    15      A.  No.

    16      Q.  How about that one?

    17      A.  That one I also saw while I was serving in the army and

    18          in movies, war movies that had been shown prior to the

    19          war, movies from the Second World War, that is.

    20      Q.  But not in the Battle of Bradina?

    21      A.  No.

    22      Q.  That one?

    23      A.  Yes, I have, also while in the army.

    24      Q.  But not in Bradina?

    25      A.  No.

Page 5507

     1      Q.  That one?

     2      A.  Yes, I have seen this one but not in Bradina.

     3      Q.  Next.   That is it.  Okay.   Were there any roadblocks

     4          put up by the people of Bradina to keep -- to keep

     5          people from going on the main road through the village?

     6      A.  Yes, there were some blocks, but they were not erected

     7          by the villagers of Bradina, but by military formation

     8          Muslim and Croatian formation who blocked both tunnel

     9          through which one could pass through Bradina.   I see no

    10          reason why anyone should erect any barricades after

    11          everything that had happened and why people should be

    12          stopped from passing through Bradina.   I do not know of

    13          any such case, your Honour.

    14      Q.  If somebody said somebody set up blocks through Bradina,

    15          those people would be lying or be wrong; is that

    16          correct?

    17      A.  Absolutely.

    18      Q.  There was absolutely no organised defence of Bradina, is

    19          that what you want the Court to understand your

    20          testimony to be?

    21      A.  Yes.   If you say that there was some sort of an

    22          organised action mounted by soldiers in Bradina, there

    23          wouldn't be 80 dead people in Bradina killed by the unit

    24          which attacked it and numbers lost on their side.   I

    25          believe that the victims tell all.

Page 5508

     1      Q.  So I understand your answer; as I understand it, what

     2          you said was there was no organised defence of the

     3          village of Bradina.   Is my understanding correct, sir?

     4      A.  Yes, there was no organised defence and the victims are

     5          telling enough.

     6      Q.  Okay, fine.   Let us go on to your capture.   You were

     7          captured either on 29th or 30th May 1992; is that right?

     8      A.  Yes, somewhere around that time.

     9      Q.  You were taken where, to a school, right?

    10      A.  Yes, to a school in Ljuta, and from the school we were

    11          taken to Bjeljasinca to the Hotel Famos.

    12      Q.  Let start with the school, you were kicked and beaten

    13          very severely at that school, were you not?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Then you were taken to the hotel?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  Where you were beaten again, right?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  And from the hotel you were put on a truck to head

    20          towards Celebici, right?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  And it was cash --

    23      A.  En route itself members of the Muslim paramilitary

    24          formations were escorting us on the truck shot at us,

    25          prisoners who were sitting on the floor of the truck and

Page 5509

     1          we were tied. On that occasion they killed a prisoner

     2          and wounded four of them.

     3      Q.  I thought we had an agreement that you would listen to

     4          my questions and just answer the questions that I

     5          asked.   If we do not have that agreement can we reach

     6          that agreement, sir?

     7      A.  Okay, absolutely, I am sorry.

     8      Q.  Okay.   Thank you.   In fact Dragan Vudicic was shot on

     9          the way to the camp and several other people were

    10          wounded; is that not right?

    11      A.  Yes, it is.

    12      Q.  Okay, when you arrived at Celebici -- let me back off

    13          just a second.   You mentioned at the end of your direct

    14          examination that at some point after your arrest your

    15          property was taken from you; is that not right?  Do you

    16          remember testifying to that?

    17      A.  Yes, my property was seized in tunnel number nine.

    18      Q.  It was?

    19      A.  In tunnel number nine.

    20      Q.  Okay.   Do you know a man called Zilic?

    21      A.  Zilic.

    22      Q.  Yes.

    23      A.  Yes, I do.

    24      Q.  Are you familiar with a building named -- and I am going

    25          to spell it, I cannot pronounce it, my Serbian is

Page 5510

     1          awfully poor -- D-R-U-S-T-V-E-N-I-D-O-M; are you

     2          familiar with that building, sir?

     3      A.  Yes, I am.

     4      Q.  Where is that building?

     5      A.  It is in the centre of the city.

     6      Q.  Okay, so do you remember making a statement to the

     7          office of the prosecutor over a two-day period in

     8          October 1995?

     9      A.  What did I state -- I do not understand.

    10      Q.  I am just asking you if you remember making a statement,

    11          sir?

    12      A.  Here at that building.

    13      Q.  No, I am asking whether you remember making a statement

    14          to the office of the prosecutor in October 1995 after

    15          your escape?

    16      A.  I do not remember.

    17      Q.  You do not remember making a statement at all?

    18      A.  No.

    19      Q.  If the usher could show him both an English and a

    20          Bosnian copy of this statement.   So I am borrowing the

    21          English copy from Ms. McMurrey, so I have to have it

    22          back.   Sir, if you look at the English version, because

    23          that is the original, does that look like your signature

    24          on it?

    25      A.  Yes, yes, it is.

Page 5511

     1      Q.  Now does that help you remember whether or not you made

     2          a statement to the office of the prosecutor?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  In that statement, when you made that statement an

     5          investigator from the office of the prosecutor asked you

     6          some questions, right?

     7      A.  Right.

     8      Q.  You would answer those questions and someone would write

     9          them down; is that correct?

    10      A.  It is.

    11      Q.  You knew that this was an important thing when you were

    12          making this statement; right?

    13      A.  Yes, I did.

    14      Q.  You wanted to tell the truth in that statement, did you

    15          not?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  In fact you told the truth and the whole truth and

    18          nothing but the truth when you made that statement; is

    19          that not right?

    20      A.  Yes.

    21      Q.  After you got through making the statement it was read

    22          back to you in Serbian; do you remember it now?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  Then you had a chance to make any corrections that you

    25          wanted to make, did you not?

Page 5512

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  Any additions you wanted to make you could have added,

     3          right?

     4      A.  I could have, but I probably did not because I did not

     5          have enough time.

     6      Q.  So the investigator from the office of the prosecutor

     7          rushed you so much that you did not have time to get the

     8          statement correct; is that what you are saying, sir?

     9      A.  No, no, he did not rush me.   I rushed my own self

    10          because I did not have time.

    11      Q.  You were in a hurry, and because you were in a hurry you

    12          just rushed through this statement?

    13      A.  Umm hmm, yes.

    14      Q.  Because you were in a hurry to get about the rest of

    15          your business, right, whatever the rest of your business

    16          was?

    17      A.  I was also in a dilemma facing this honourable court

    18          here or not, so I did not pay that much attention to it.

    19      Q.  So you were in so much of a hurry you did not pay so

    20          much attention to it; is that right?

    21      A.  Absolutely correct, I did not.

    22      Q.  Did you read the "witness acknowledgment" on the page

    23          with your signature on it on the back?  Why do you not

    24          take the Bosnian version right now and read it over, and

    25          I can read it in English and we can see if it says the

Page 5513

     1          same thing.   It is way in the back where your signature

     2          it on the Bosnian version, approximately the last

     3          page.   It says "witness acknowledgment".   See if you

     4          can find that.   Did you find it?

     5      A.  Yes, I found the witness acknowledgment.

     6      Q.  Okay, let us go over it.   Lets see what it says.   I do

     7          not think that he has it.   If someone could help him

     8          find it.   It should be on the last page.   Your Honour,

     9          we have another copy.   We can let him read it off

    10          this.   Sir, we are going to hand you another copy and

    11          we will take some copies back in a minute because you

    12          are getting loaded with paper, where it says "witness

    13          acknowledgment" up there at the top of the page?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  On the page on the left-hand side.

    16      A.  Yes, on the left side, but there is no signature.

    17      Q.  I understand that, sir.  That is a Bosnian translation

    18          from the original English.   Let us go over this and see

    19          if this is what you read and had read to you.   It says:

    20                "This statement has been read over to me in the

    21          Serbian language and is true to the best of my knowledge

    22          and recollection."

    23                Do you remember someone reading that sentence to

    24          you right before you signed?  Do you remember that,

    25          sir? .   Then they went on and said --

Page 5514

     1      A.  Not too well.

     2      Q.  Then went on and said:

     3                "I have given this Statement voluntarily and am

     4          aware that it may be used in legal proceedings before

     5          the International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution

     6          of Persons Responsible for Serious Violations of

     7          International Law Committed in the Territory of the

     8          Former Yugoslavia since 1991, and that I may be called

     9          to give evidence ... before the Tribunal."

    10                Do you remember them saying that to you before you

    11          signed?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  So it was made pretty clear to you, was it not, that

    14          this was and important interview and an important

    15          document, was it not?

    16      A.  Yes.

    17      Q.  This is an important criminal court since World War II,

    18          so that is a pretty big thing in your life?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  But you were rushed when you gave the statement, so you

    21          are not sure whether you were correct or not; is that

    22          what you are telling the judges?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  Let us go over some of the things in that statement.

    25          When you said, you said all your property was taken from

Page 5515

     1          you in tunnel nine.   Now if you look at the Serbian

     2          statement, the translation, does it not say:

     3                "When we arrive at Konjic the convoy stopped in

     4          front of their military command, the building".

     5                The building's name was Drustveni Dom?

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q. "Zilic ordered the soldiers in the truck to search us.

     8          Zilic ordered: 'Search them.' 'Take their ID cards and

     9          bring them to me.'  The soldiers searched us, took all

    10          of our valuables and gave them to Zilic.

    11                "Zilic then said:  'I want everything.  Don't let

    12          me catch you holding anything back from me'."

    13                You said that in your written statement, did you

    14          not?

    15      A.  Yes, but there were some things that were hidden:  for

    16          instance, they took my chain, but I also had a bracelet

    17          and a ring, as I already said, and I hid them.   I gave

    18          those to them in tunnel number nine.   They did not find

    19          it and I gave the gold chain to Zilic.

    20      Q.  So when you said in your statement to the office of the

    21          prosecutors "The soldiers then searched us, took all our

    22          valuables and gave them to Zilic", that was incorrect;

    23          is that what you are saying?  Pardon me, sir.

    24      A.  No, they searched us, that is true, but they could not

    25          find everything because we hid it in our socks, in our

Page 5516

     1          shoes.  Wherever somebody thought of that, they could

     2          put something away.

     3      Q.  So they did not take all or valuables, just all the

     4          valuables that they could find, right?

     5      A.  I thought I would succeed to keep this ring.   It was a

     6          present from my late mother and my bracelet; but I gave

     7          that up too in tunnel number nine.

     8      Q.  Okay, now let us go on a little further in your

     9          testimony on direct.   When you got to Celebici you were

    10          unloaded off the trucks, right?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Then you were lined up against a wall, was that before

    13          or after you were taken to the command building to be

    14          registered in into the camp?

    15      A.  I think it was after we were unloaded, as far as I can

    16          recall.

    17      Q.  You mean after you were unloaded you were taken to the

    18          command building to be registered into the camp or after

    19          you were unloaded you were beaten and then taken into

    20          the command building to be registered into the camp.

    21          Which was it, sir?

    22      A.  It is difficult to remember all the details and all the

    23          facts with precision, because one has to bear in mind

    24          all the things that we went through before we got to

    25          Celebici, so that it was impossible to register and

Page 5517

     1          remember every single detail.   It really is difficult,

     2          particularly now to recall every single detail.

     3      Q.  I understand that it is hard to recall detail several

     4          years later.   After this beating by people, you do not

     5          know who they were, that is what you testified to under

     6          direct, you do not know who beat you up when you got

     7          there?

     8      A.  At first I did not know.

     9      Q.  That beating was about three or four hours long.  Then

    10          at some point you were put into tunnel nine; right?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  You remained in tunnel nine for what, 110 or 120 days,

    13          which was if?

    14      A.  About 110.   Again, I am not quite sure whether it was

    15          110 or 105, but something like that.

    16      Q.  Okay, somewhere over 100 days?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  You got there May 30th, June 1st, thereabouts?

    19      A.  Yes, thereabouts.

    20      Q.  In fact it could be either May 30th or June 1st, would

    21          it not?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  There were no other prisoners in the tunnel when you

    24          were put into it; right?

    25      A.  When we entered the tunnel was empty there were other

Page 5518

     1          prisoners who had been captured and brought to the camp,

     2          whether they had been in number nine before, I do not

     3          know, but it was empty when I entered the tunnel.

     4          There was no one there.

     5      Q.  Okay.   Eventually there were about 40 people in that

     6          tunnel; is that right?

     7      A.  As far as I can remember, yes, maybe a little more or a

     8          little less, but that is roughly the number.   I cannot

     9          give you the exact number.

    10      Q.  Okay.   You were only fed ever third day while you were

    11          in the tunnel, is that not right?  Is that what you said

    12          in direct?

    13      A.  Yes, yes, we would get a slice of bread every third day,

    14          a slice of bread.

    15      Q.  Not any more than that?

    16      A.  No.

    17      Q.  If you take a look at your statement -- you can look at

    18          the Bosnian version -- I am going to read something and

    19          see if that is what you what your statement says.   The

    20          paragraph starts off:

    21                "Because the tunnel was not long enough we did to

    22          sleep diagonally."

    23                See if you can find that in your statement, that

    24          paragraph.

    25      A.  It is not necessary, I do not have to look for it.   I

Page 5519

     1          remember that.

     2      Q.  Did you say in that written statement:

     3                "In the beginning, we received only a very small

     4          piece of bread and half a cup of water once a day"?

     5      A.  I may have said that, but the truth is we got a slice of

     6          bread every third day.

     7      Q.  What you put in your statement to the office of the

     8          prosecutor, it was not the truth, is that what you are

     9          saying?

    10      A.  Maybe I was wrong; I made a mistake.   I cannot recall

    11          now.   Maybe I was not concentrating enough at the time

    12          I was making this statement.   I already said that I was

    13          in a hurry.   Maybe I made some omissions as a result of

    14          that.

    15      Q.  Okay.   One thing I do need to clear up: .   there was a

    16          guard named Osman Dedic, right?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  He is different from Hazim Delic, right?

    19      A.  Osman Dedic.

    20      Q.  Yes.   He and Hazim Delic are two different people;

    21          right?

    22      A.  Yes, yes.

    23      Q.  Now in your direct examination you testified -- I am

    24          looking for it in my notes -- that you were beaten three

    25          or four times personally.   Do you remember testifying

Page 5520

     1          to that?

     2      A.  Yes.

     3      Q.  You also testified that every time you went out to use

     4          the latrine you were lined up against the wall and

     5          beaten with a baseball bat; do you remember testifying

     6          to that?

     7      A.  Yes, yes, that is what I said, but we did not understand

     8          one another well.   That was when I was beaten on my own

     9          as an individual, but we went to the latrine in a

    10          group.   So I was singling out the occasions when I was

    11          singled out to be beaten.  But when I was beaten as a

    12          member of a group, that happened almost daily.

    13      Q.  Okay.   Let us talk about these baseball bat beatings

    14          for a minute; okay?  When you say Mr. Delic hit you with

    15          a baseball bat, he, what, hit you across the back, did

    16          he not?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  He hit you real hard, did he not?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  About how many times would he hit you?

    21      A.  It depended, sometimes more, sometimes less.   I did not

    22          count.   I could not count.

    23      Q.  Would it be fair to say he hit you more than 10 times

    24          with that baseball bat?

    25      A.  I cannot recall.

Page 5521

     1      Q.  Okay.

     2      A.  Because it depended on the strength of the blow and it

     3          depended on pain.   So for us one blow could be equal

     4          100 sometimes and sometimes less.

     5      Q.  Well, okay, you told me he was hitting you real hard

     6          every time he hit you.   Did I misunderstand you on

     7          that, sir?

     8      A.  If he had intended not to hit me hard he probably would

     9          not have hit me at all.   I am sure he did not want to

    10          caress me.

    11      Q.  So he was hitting you about as hard as he could?

    12      A.  Whether he could hit harder, I really don't know.

    13      Q.  He hit you across the kidneys, is that not what you

    14          said?

    15      A.  Yes, yes.

    16      Q.  In fact if you were going to be hit with a baseball bat

    17          you would be hit across the kidneys with that baseball

    18          bat; right?

    19      A.  It depended on the will of the person hitting you.

    20      Q.  Okay.   So you were not always hit across the kidneys.

    21          Do you know where your kidneys are by the way, so that

    22          we understand each other?

    23      A.  I should know, surely.

    24      Q.  They are in the lower part of your back, one on each

    25          side.

Page 5522

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  Below your rib cage; right?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  So that they are not protected by any bones from sharp

     5          blows; right?

     6      A.  As you know yourself.

     7      Q.  Yes, I just wanted to make sure that we were on the same

     8          wave length.   If the usher could show you --

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  -- the baseball bat.

    11      THE REGISTRAR:  D6/3.

    12      A.  Yes, I can see it;  I am familiar with it.   You do not

    13          need to show it to me.

    14      Q.  That looks like the baseball bat that was used; right?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  It was used to hit you real hard?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  It was used to --

    19      A.  Would you please remove it from the table, please?

    20          Can I ask for that?

    21      Q.  Sure, no problem.   Sure.   That looks like the baseball

    22          bat that you say Mr. Delic swung inside the tunnel to hit

    23          people with; right?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Did you testify the tunnel was about 1.2 metres wide;

Page 5523

     1          right?

     2      A.  According to my estimate.  I did not measure it.

     3      Q.  Give or take a little bit, maybe a little more or maybe

     4          a little less?

     5      A.  Yes, roughly.   I really do not know exactly how wide it

     6          was.

     7      Q.  Let us go to the incidents about the manhole.  Let us

     8          talk about that for a second.

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  That is a pretty memorable experience, is it not?

    11      A.  Yes.

    12      Q.  Not the kind of thing that somebody would forget, is it?

    13      A.  No.

    14      Q.  Sir, take the Serbian version of your statement and read

    15          out loud the entire way you recounted that to the office

    16          of the prosecutor?

    17      A.  I do not know if I can find it.

    18      Q.  Sir, I will help you:  you will not find it because it

    19          is not there.  About how big was the bottom of that

    20          manhole in square metres?

    21      A.  It was very small.   I know how we felt inside and how

    22          much space we had.  We know that very well how small it

    23          was.

    24      Q.  At the time you were all put in that manhole, there

    25          were, what, about 40 people in the tunnel?

Page 5524

     1      A.  I said that I really do not know the exact number, 30 to

     2          40 people.   I cannot recall that.   I have already said

     3          that, that I do not know the exact number.

     4      Q.  Well, you gave a list of 41 names in your statement.

     5          Would that be right?

     6      A.  I did provide a list.

     7      Q.  There were 41 names on that list, were not there?

     8      A.  Yes, but people left tunnel number nine before others

     9          and some did not go to the manhole at all.   A couple of

    10          people who were from the same locality as the camp was.

    11      Q.  Sir, maybe I misunderstood your direct examination --

    12          I am going through my notes -- I thought you said that

    13          they took a group of about 16 or 17 and that you were in

    14          that group, and after that they let you out of the

    15          tunnel they took everybody else and put them down in the

    16          manhole?

    17      A.  Yes, but as far as I can remember a couple of people did

    18          not go to the manhole.   I am not sure about that.

    19          I think those people who came from the same place as the

    20          camp itself, so I am not quite sure about that.

    21      Q.  Okay, so you are not sure.   You were not sure when you

    22          testified on direct that after your group was put back

    23          in tunnel nine everybody else in tunnel nine got put in

    24          the manhole?

    25      MR. TURONE:   Okay, your Honour.   He did not actually say

Page 5525

     1          "everybody else" but talked about a second group.

     2      MR. MORAN:   Your Honours have heard the testimony.   I am

     3          just going off my memory.   Its's in the transcript

     4          whatever he said.

     5      Q.  Slavko Susic, let's talk about his death.

     6      A.  Yes.

     7      Q.  And Zara Mrkajic's connection with that death, okay?

     8      A.  I do not understand.   There was no Zara.  Zara was not

     9          in tunnel number nine.  Mrkajic?

    10      Q.  Zara Mrkajic.

    11      A.  Yes, Zara was there, yes.

    12      Q.  Are you familiar with a thing called the Republika

    13          Sirpska?

    14      A.  I am.

    15      Q.  Tell the judges what Republika Sirpska is?

    16      A.  A territory under the control of Serbs, the territory

    17          that belonged to the Serbs.

    18      Q.  In fact it has a government, army and a court system;

    19          right?

    20      A.  Probably.   I am not following the news.

    21      Q.  Well, I am just curious whether or not you knew that

    22          Zoran Mrkajic spent eight months in the custody of the

    23          Republika Sirpska while they investigated his connection

    24          with Mr. Susic's death.   I am curious whether you knew

    25          Grozda Cecez was one of the main prosecution witnesses

Page 5526

     1          against you, did you know that?

     2      A.  No, I have no idea about that.

     3      Q.  Okay, that is fine.  Let us talk about the Red Cross now

     4          for a minute; okay?

     5      A.  Yes.

     6      Q.  When the Red Cross came on their very first visit to

     7          register everybody where you in hangar six or tunnel

     8          nine?

     9      A.  In tunnel number nine.

    10      Q.  Okay.  Let us talk a little bit about your

    11          interrogations.   On direct examination, frankly it was

    12          not clear to me -- and I am not criticising anyone -- it

    13          just was not clear to me, you said that there were two

    14          people who interrogate you.   In the same sentence you

    15          said "and who escorted us to the office and stood as

    16          security while we were being interrogated."  Did you

    17          mean there were two people interrogating you and two

    18          people who escorted you to and from the office?

    19      A.  I was thinking of the guards who accompanied us.   Of

    20          course there were another two interrogating us. I do not

    21          know their names.  Nor do I know the names of those who

    22          escorted us to the Command building.

    23      Q.  What I am getting at is it is two groups of two people?

    24      A.  Two people interrogated us and two people brought me to

    25          the Command building and they were waiting like security

Page 5527

     1          until I made some sort of a statement.

     2      Q.  Okay.   About how long after you were brought to the

     3          camp did this interrogation occur - one week, two weeks?

     4      A.  I cannot remember.   I do not remember.

     5      Q.  You do not recall.   Do you recall whether it was a

     6          short time or a long time?

     7      A.  After a short time.  I think it was at the beginning.

     8          I cannot remember exactly how -- after how many days.

     9          That I cannot remember.

    10      Q.  But it was definitely after June 1st; no question about

    11          that, right?

    12      A.  I think not.

    13      Q.  If you arrived at the camp about June 1st you were not

    14          interrogated the first day you were there, were you?

    15      A.  I do not remember because I was in a poor condition.

    16          Maybe some people were interrogated, maybe I was too,

    17          but I do not remember.

    18      Q.  That is fair enough, you were in a poor condition

    19          because of the beating you took at Mount Igman and at

    20          the school and on your way to Celebici; right?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  Did you have any medical treatment for your injuries?

    23      A.  No, never.

    24      Q.  How about after you left the camp?

    25      A.  Me?  I did in Republika Sirpska or, rather, in Serbian,

Page 5528

     1          when I left the camp.

     2      Q.  Do you have copies of those medical records?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  I noticed that you testified on direct that at the time

     5          of the Battle of Bradina you were not a member of the

     6          Serbian Democratic Party, "but I have since become a

     7          member of the Serbian Democratic Party"; is that not

     8          what you testified to?

     9      A.  Yes, yes.

    10      Q.  You now support the SDS and its leaders?

    11      A.  Whether I support them or not, that is my own affair.

    12          Whether I support anyone, whether I support the SDS at

    13          all, that is my personal affair, and my own option,

    14          I suppose.   I am entitled to that.

    15      Q.  That is true:  where I come from some of us are

    16          Democrats and some of us are Republicans and we can

    17          pretty much be what we want to be.

    18                Let me jump back a second.  Do you recall in March

    19          1992 there was a plebisite, an election in Bosnia

    20          Herzegovina?

    21      A.  I know that there were some kind of elections.

    22      Q.  I am not going to ask you whether you voted in it or how

    23          you voted, if you did vote; the only thing I want to

    24          know is, if you wanted to vote, if you had the desire to

    25          go vote in that election, could you have done that?

Page 5529

     1      A.  I do not know.   I cannot tell.

     2      Q.  Well, were you on the Voter Registration Rolls for

     3          Bradina?

     4      A.  I do not know that either.

     5      Q.  Were you on the voter registration?

     6      A.  I was without an ID card for a long time.   I was not

     7          registered in Bradina even.

     8      Q.  You were without an ID cards for a long time.   When did

     9          you lose your ID cards, sir, roughly?

    10      A.  I lost it some time before the war.   I cannot recall

    11          exactly how long before.

    12      Q.  Okay.   So because you did not have an ID card you were

    13          ineligible to vote, is that it?

    14      A.  I probably could not have voted without an ID card,

    15          without some kind of documents.

    16      Q.  Just one more thing -- and I may have asked it poorly a

    17          little bit earlier, but if I have I apologise -- I just

    18          want to make sure we have it clear, then I think we will

    19          be pretty much close to done.   It is your position

    20          based on having been in Bradina prior to the Battle of

    21          Bradina that these people, the residents of Bradina --

    22          okay -- did not have any kind of military force there,

    23          no partisans, no regular army, no militia, no

    24          organisation at all.   That is what you are testifying

    25          to; right?

Page 5530

     1      A.  Yes, that is what I said.   In answer to the gentleman's

     2          question I said "No".

     3      Q.  So there was not anybody there that was a commander or

     4          there was not anybody there that was wearing some kind

     5          of insignia to show that they were in a military unit,

     6          on the Serb side; is that correct?

     7      A.  Yes, I do not know whether there was a single prisoner

     8          who came to the camp in a uniform, except for -- all of

     9          them had civilian clothes and sneakers.  If that is

    10          army, people under arms, I am not familiar that any such

    11          case exists in the world.

    12      Q.  I agree with you wholeheartedly, sir.   Are you familiar

    13          with a man named Radovan Karadzic?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  What is his relationship to the Serbian Democratic

    16          Party?

    17      A.  I have no idea.

    18      Q.  I pass the witness, your Honour

    19                     Cross-examination by Mr. Ackerman.

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Mr. Ackerman, you can proceed.

    21      MR. ACKERMAN:   Thank you very much, your Honour.

    22                Mr. Kuljanin, my name is John Ackerman.

    23          I represent Mr. Landzo in this Court.   How are you this

    24          afternoon.

    25      THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 5531

     1      MR. ACKERMAN:   Did you hear what I said?

     2      A.  Yes, I did.

     3      Q.  When you first came into this Court this morning to

     4          testify you stood and took an oath to tell the truth,

     5          did you not?

     6      A.  Correct.

     7      Q.  Have you ever done that before anywhere else?  Have you

     8          ever taken an oath anywhere else to tell the truth?

     9      A.  Not on occasions like these, no, I have not been in a

    10          situation to take an oath to tell the truth.   I have

    11          not had occasion to be on the witness stand so far.

    12      Q.  So this is your first experience as a witness being

    13          asked questions and giving answers to those questions in

    14          this kind of a setting; is that a fair statement?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  Now, you do have some experience with being asked

    17          questions in a less formal setting about your

    18          experiences during the situation that arose in Bosnia in

    19          1992, do you not?

    20      A.  I really did not understand the question.

    21      Q.  Well, you have been asked questions by a representative

    22          of the office of the prosecutor.   You have been asked

    23          questions by military investigating committees and

    24          Celebici and perhaps in Konjic before about the event in

    25          Bosnia in 1992, have you not?

Page 5532

     1      A.  No, I do not remember.

     2      Q.  I thought we had at least established when Mr. Moran was

     3          up here that you now have a memory of being questioned

     4          by Mr. Hortemo from the office of the prosecutor?

     5      A.  You are referring to the International Tribunal, when I

     6          gave statements for the Tribunal?  Is this what you are

     7          referring to?

     8      Q.  I am referring to every time somebody has sat you down

     9          and asked you questions about your experience in Bosnia

    10          in 1992.  That has happened before, has not it?

    11      A.  Yes, yes.

    12      Q.  Now you have had a chance to look at the statement you

    13          gave to the office of the prosecutor for this Tribunal

    14          in October 1995, have you not?

    15      A.  Yes.

    16      Q.  When was the last time you saw that?

    17      A.  I cannot recall, really.

    18      Q.  You never saw that since you have arrived here at the

    19          Hague until Mr. Moran showed it to you?

    20      A.  No, I did not.

    21      Q.  No one from the office of the prosecutor --

    22      A.  I do not remember.

    23      Q.  -- no one from the office of the prosecutor in talking

    24          to you about the testimony you were going to give here

    25          today showed you that statement and gave you an

Page 5533

     1          opportunity to read it?

     2      A.  No, they gave me something, but I did not read

     3          anything.   I was not very interested in those

     4          statements.

     5      Q.  You mean just in the last few days here in The Hague you

     6          were given something to read by the prosecutor to read

     7          but chose not to because you were not very interested?

     8      A.  Yes.

     9      Q.  Are you interested in being here at all today?

    10      A.  I am interested in recounting my experiences and what I

    11          felt under my own skin.   I have not come here to lie

    12          nor waste my time before this honourable Court.  I

    13          should like to thank the honourable Court to give me

    14          this opportunity to say what I have to say and to say

    15          what I have gone through.   I am not interested in

    16          statements.   I want to tell before the Court what I

    17          have gone through and what I have felt in my own skin,

    18          the statements that can be read by whoever sees fit and

    19          who needs them.

    20      Q.  In fact when you came into this court the first thing

    21          this morning and were sworn, the first thing you said

    22          was to the Court "May I begin?" like you were prepared

    23          to go ahead and make a statement without any questions

    24          being asked of you at all; correct?

    25      A.  No, no, I did not say that.   I actually waited for

Page 5534

     1          someone to put a question because I had no idea.  I also

     2          had some stage fright because standing before this

     3          eminent honourable Court I did not feel all that

     4          pleasant and I was struck with stage fright as well.

     5          I only started talking after questions had been asked of

     6          me.

     7      Q.  Did you have any idea that Mr. Turone was going to ask

     8          you questions today?

     9      A.  No.

    10      Q.  You had no conversation prior to coming here with

    11          Mr. Turone where he told you that he was going to be

    12          asking you questions?

    13      A.  No.

    14      Q.  Did you have any conversation with --

    15      A.  I am not quite sure what gentleman you are referring

    16          to.  The gentleman who just asked me some questions

    17          before?

    18      Q.  Yes, the one right there who keeps raising his hand.

    19          If you look over, he will raise his hand so that you can

    20          see.   That gentleman.

    21      A.  Oh, yes, yes.

    22      Q.  Yes.  What --

    23      A.  Well, he talked to me about how I should behave, that I

    24          should tell the truth and so on.

    25      Q.  Is he the one that gave you your statement to look at

Page 5535

     1          that you decided not to look at?

     2      A.  No, he gave me some papers, but I chose not to look at

     3          any papers because I really know what my own experience

     4          is which I came to tell the honourable Court about.

     5      Q.  Did you know what your experiences had been in October

     6          1995 when you talked to Mr. Hortemo or were you having a

     7          blackout of some kind that day?

     8      A.  I probably could not remember some things then, and

     9          subsequently I supplemented some of the things I said

    10          because I had forgotten them before.

    11      Q.  So your memory is better now than it was a couple of

    12          years ago?

    13      A.  It is not a question of that.   As far as the camp

    14          itself is concerned, I could write novels.   One could

    15          write novels about it and just say something within a

    16          limited space of time because one remembers things that

    17          one has forgotten before and did not recall at a certain

    18          point of time.

    19      Q.  Well, Mr. Moran just asked you a question about your

    20          interrogation when you got to Celebici and you told the

    21          Court that it is very difficult to remember the details

    22          of what happened because it is so long ago.   Now, you

    23          are telling us you have no problem remembering all the

    24          details because it is so clear in your mind.  Which one

    25          of those is it?

Page 5536

     1      A.  Of course I cannot remember all the details.   I did not

     2          tell the gentleman all the details.   I cannot, it is

     3          impossible for one to recall all the details because

     4          there were so many things.

     5      Q.  If you had had an opportunity while you were in Celebici

     6          camp to keep a diary of those experiences, that could be

     7          real helpful to you today to help refresh your memory to

     8          be more accurate, would it not?

     9      A.  Yes, it would.   I have no opportunity to think about my

    10          own life.   I only waited for the day that I would

    11          leave, so I had no opportunity nor the time to think

    12          about keeping any records.   I had no sense of the

    13          time.   I did not know what day it was, what month it

    14          was, let alone keep any records.  It was impossible.

    15      Q.  Please understand, I am not suggesting that you should

    16          have kept a diary.   The other thing I would like to ask

    17          is that you listen carefully to my questions - you tend

    18          to make little speeches at the end of my questions.  If

    19          my question is not real clear to you, let me know and I

    20          will try to make it more clear.  But if you will do

    21          that, we will get out of here a lot quicker today; okay?

    22      A.  How should I know how exactly to answer? .   I answer

    23          the way exactly I think I should answer.

    24      Q.  That is okay so long as your answer has something to do

    25          with the question that I asked; okay?

Page 5537

     1      A.  Okay.

     2      Q.  Now having told us that if you had kept a diary while at

     3          Celebici it would have been helpful in terms of

     4          refreshing your memory about what happened there; I take

     5          it the same would be true if you had made statements

     6          about the time you were in Celebici or thereafter.  It

     7          would certainly be helpful to review those just to see

     8          if there was something there that you might not remember

     9          today that you would like to tell this Tribunal about?

    10      A.  I have already said that I maintain no lists, no records

    11          of any kind.   I do not know.  I do not understand.

    12      Q.  The officers of the prosecutor made a record of your

    13          account of what happened to you there.   That record was

    14          made in October 1995 in the form of a statement that you

    15          gave to the office of the prosecutor.   Now you know

    16          that is true, do you not?

    17      A.  Yes.

    18      Q.  That statement was made over a period of two days.   It

    19          was made during the 20th and 21st October 1995; are you

    20          aware of that?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  You understood that that statement was being taken by a

    23          representative of this Tribunal of the office of the

    24          prosecutor of this Tribunal and that that was an

    25          important matter, did you not?

Page 5538

     1      A.  I have no idea how important it is.

     2      Q.  Well, I guess you think it is important enough that you

     3          are here today?

     4      A.  What is important is for me to tell this honourable

     5          Court about the things that I have gone through.

     6      Q.  And in October 1995 it was important for you to tell a

     7          representative of the office of the prosecutor and this

     8          honourable Court what you had gone through; correct?

     9      A.  Yes, but not as much as here today, because I was in a

    10          dilemma whether to appear before the Tribunal or not.

    11      Q.  So I guess you told Mr. Hortemo that there were a lot of

    12          things that you just were not going to tell him on those

    13          two days, that you spoke with limit because you were

    14          having this dilemma.  Did you tell him that?

    15      A.  I did.   I said that I would only be making a brief

    16          statement because at that time I did not believe that I

    17          would be appearing before the Tribunal.   So I just gave

    18          him a brief description of what did happen.

    19      Q.  So over a period of two days you gave him a brief

    20          statement?

    21      A.  The time was limited by me.  My time was limited.

    22          I only had so much time that I could allot to that.

    23      Q.  You met with him on two different days, on 20th and 21st

    24          October; did not you?

    25      A.  Yes, we met on those two days.

Page 5539

     1      Q.  Do you think Mr. Hortemo would agree with you that you

     2          were only going to give him part of the story?

     3      A.  I did not say to him that I would give him a part of the

     4          story.   I only said that my time was limited and that I

     5          did not have enough time because I had some business to

     6          attend to and I gave him the statement which I did.   If

     7          I did give a statement, it does not mean that I said

     8          everything, that it is exhaustive.

     9      Q.  So you did not did not tell Mr. Hortemo, as, you

    10          indicated earlier, that you were only going to tell him

    11          part of the story.  Is that your testimony now?

    12      A.  No, I did not say that.

    13      Q.  Did you tell him that you were going to tell him

    14          everything that you could remember?

    15      A.  I said that I would tell him everything that I could

    16          remember then.  At the moment in question that is what

    17          I gave him a statement of the thing that I could

    18          remember at the moment in question.   As I was not

    19          concentrating enough, I was not ready, really ready to

    20          make a statement, I said what I said.

    21      Q.  He told you that it was real important that you tell him

    22          everything you could remember, did he not?

    23      A.  Yes, he did.   He told me so.

    24      Q.  He told you at that time that he was there to take your

    25          statement because Mr. Delalic and Mr. Delic and Mr. Landzo

Page 5540

     1          and Mr. Mucic had been indicted by this Tribunal and he

     2          wanted to know if you had any information about any of

     3          those people as a result of your experience.   He told

     4          you that, did he not?

     5      A.  Yes, he did.

     6      Q.  Now a few moments ago when Mr. Turone, the prosecutor,

     7          who asked you questions, was questioning you, he asked

     8          you if you had any opportunity to learn Mr. Landzo's

     9          first name or nickname and you told him, "No" that you

    10          did not have that opportunity.  Is that not what you

    11          said?

    12      A.  I said that I knew him by his nickname and that I knew

    13          his surname.  For his name I was not really

    14          interested.   If I had wanted to know I would have found

    15          out in the camp itself.

    16      Q.  Well, you told --

    17      A.  As far as his first name is concerned.

    18      Q.  You told Mr. Hortemo when you talked to him that his name

    19          was Senad Landzo.  That the person who tortured you was

    20          Senad Landzo?

    21      A.  I said that I thought the first name was Senad.   I was

    22          not sure.   I was sure about his surname and his

    23          nickname.   I wasn't sure about his first name and that

    24          is exactly what I said.

    25      Q.  Why do you think Mr. Hortemo failed to record you

Page 5541

     1          'thought' that was his name and just put it down as you

     2          'said' that was his name.   Why would he have done

     3          that?

     4      A.  I really have no idea.   I do not know, maybe that is

     5          his name.

     6      Q.  Why, when you had a chance to review this statement and

     7          it was read to you, why did you not say.

     8                'Wait a minute, I am not sure that is the name'?

     9      A.  It just did not occur to me.   I was not interested very

    10          much in that person, whether the name is this or that.

    11          I know who they are and what they are, and as far as

    12          I am concerned that is sufficient.

    13      Q.  So your position here today is that, as far as you know,

    14          the person named Landzo who did the things that you have

    15          described was a person named Senad Landzo; correct?

    16      A.  I repeat, I am not sure about the name, the first

    17          name.   I am sure about the surname and his face and his

    18          physical appearance, that I am sure of.   As far as the

    19          first, I am not sure whether it is this or that.   I am

    20          quite sure about his physical appearance, his surname

    21          and his nickname.

    22      Q.  A few moments ago when I was asking you about the

    23          statement that you gave to the office of the prosecutor,

    24          Mr. Hortemo, you responded in a way to make that plural,

    25          like you had given more than one statement to the office

Page 5542

     1          of the prosecutor.  Have you given them more than one

     2          statement?

     3      A.  I don't -- I cannot recall.  I have no idea.

     4      Q.  You do not remember whether you met with a

     5          representative of the office of the prosecutor other

     6          than on 20th and 21st October?

     7      A.  It seems to me that some people did come after that date

     8          also, but I was not really interested.   I do not know.

     9      Q.  Do you remember giving any other statements to anyone

    10          regarding the event in and around Bradina in 1992?

    11      A.  I do not remember.

    12      Q.  You certainly remember giving a statement to the

    13          military investigating committee at Celebici when you

    14          were taken into the Command centre there.   You have

    15          described that and you gave a statement there, did you

    16          not?

    17      A.  I did.   I gave some statements, as I have already said.

    18      Q.  And that statement was given on June 8th 1992, the one

    19          at Celebici, was it not?

    20      A.  It might have been.

    21      Q.  And in that statement you told the members of that

    22          Committee that you had been a member of the SDS since

    23          the SDS was formed, did you not?

    24      A.  That is what is written there.  Whether I said it is a

    25          question, I know for a fact I did not say that I was a

Page 5543

     1          member of the SDS.   I said that I was not.  The fact is

     2          that I was not a member and they wrote that I was.   He

     3          cursed my Chetnik mother and he said we were all the

     4          same and that we were all members.   I do not know what

     5          else they wrote there, but this is the way it was.

     6      Q.  You told that Committee that you knew there was four

     7          mortars located in the village of Bradina.  One mortar

     8          of 82 millimetres was placed in the village of

     9          Barakusa.  Damjan Gligorevic was an aiming gunner, while

    10          Goran Gligorevic was his assistant.  The other mortar of

    11          82 millimetres was placed at the Bara place above the

    12          house of Mrkajics and was operated by Zoran Kuljanin as

    13          an aiming gunner and Zeljko Makajic as his assistant the

    14          anti-aircraft mortar was placed at the Podgaj place

    15          above the house of Mrkajics, and I know that Zdravko

    16          Dordic, Zoran Dordic and Dragan Dordic were responsible

    17          for it. The radio station PCR-320 was placed next to the

    18          meteorological station at Bradina. , you told them all

    19          that, did you not?

    20      A.  Its people who are referred to in here, there, are

    21          people I do not even know.   I never said these things

    22          nor did I see any of those things.

    23      Q.  How do you know what is in this statement, this

    24          statement of June 8th, 1992? How do you know what it

    25          says?

Page 5544

     1      A.  You just read out parts of it to me.

     2      Q.  I started reading out the part about you being a member

     3          of the SDS party.   You said:

     4                "They put that in there, but I did not say that."

     5                How do you know they said that?

     6      A.  Sorry?

     7      Q.  How do you know they put in there, that you were a

     8          member of the SDS party?  You just told us they put it

     9          in there and it was not true; how do you know that?

    10      A.  I know they asked me about it and I know what they put

    11          in after they asked me.   They probably put it in there

    12          which does not mean anything to me.

    13      Q.  During the round-up in Bradina, you were a squadron

    14          commander, were you not?

    15      A.  Me?  No.  No, I was not.

    16      Q.  In your squad were people named Relja Gligorevic, Stevan

    17          Kuljanin, Nedo Kuljanin, Slavko Miljanic, Jelenko

    18          Kuljanin, Mitar Kuljanin, Milan Draganic.  Those were

    19          the men in your squad, were they not?

    20      A.  No.   I do not know two of the people you enumerated.

    21          I do not know them at all.   I was not a squadron

    22          commander nor was I in charge of any people, of any men.

    23      Q.  After you left Bradina trying to escape in a canyon up

    24          near Ljuta, you ran into a member of the territorial

    25          defence and captured him, did you not?

Page 5545

     1      A.  Yes.

     2      Q.  Disarm him?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  And later you captured an additional two members of the

     5          territorial defence and disarmed both of them; correct?

     6      A.  I was not in this group which disarmed the next two men

     7          because we had parted and this man who was armed with

     8          this rifle went with us escorting us to show us the way

     9          towards Serb controlled territory.   I was not in that

    10          other group, and the other group captured the other two

    11          people that you are referring to.

    12      Q.  Were you in the group at that that Zara Mrkajic talked

    13          into surrendering because you were surounded?

    14      A.  Zara Mrkajic remained behind my group and he came to the

    15          village.   He was not with me when we were captured.  He

    16          was not there at all.   He stayed behind and he went to

    17          the village and he was captured in Ljuta and disarmed,

    18          etc.

    19      Q.  Do you know a gentleman by the name of Vukasin Mrkajic?

    20      A.  I do.

    21      Q.  That is the person who was responsible forearming the

    22          citizens of Bradina, was it not?

    23      A.  I really have know idea what his function was and what

    24          he had.   I really do not know.

    25      Q.  Did he not at one point give you an anti-aircraft gun

Page 5546

     1          and 80 bullets?

     2      A.  No, not to me.

     3      Q.  Then later did you not exchange that with Mr. Dragan

     4          Vujicic for a 762 millimetres weapon?

     5      A.  To make things clear I never exchanged anything of the

     6          kind, nor did I get any kind of armaments from Vukasin

     7          Mrkajic.

     8      Q.  So if you said all that in a statement that you signed,

     9          those things were not true?

    10      A.  First of all, there is another Milenko in Bradina and he

    11          has the same surname.   Perhaps some things might have

    12          been confused, because of that he has the same surname

    13          and the same name, possibly another man is involved.

    14      Q.  Is your father Stevan?

    15      A.  Yes, he is.

    16      Q.  Is your mother Bosiljka?

    17      A.  Yes, she was Bosiljka.

    18      Q.  So if this statement refers to a Milenko Kuljanin, son

    19          of Stevan and Bosiljka Kuljanin, that would be you,

    20          would it not?

    21      A.  You have proper information but can I ask you a

    22          question, sir?

    23      Q.  Go ahead.  I'll let you do that.

    24      A.  You have the data, particulars of my parents, can I ask

    25          you whether you have any details about who killed my

Page 5547

     1          mother in the village of Bradina, whether you have it in

     2          any of your documents which are so extensive and so

     3          full?  Perhaps it is written who killed my mother in one

     4          of those.

     5      Q.  I don't, but you might ask Mr. Turone that.   The

     6          prosecutors have a lot more documents than we do.

     7      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   We will now see the dangers of getting

     8          into the dialogue.

     9      MR. ACKERMAN:   I was trying to be a good guy and let him ask

    10          me a question, and that was a mistake.

    11      A.  I apologise.

    12      Q.  That is all right.   That was my fault.   I would like

    13          to ask the usher to just show you the statement that I

    14          have been referring to and maybe get it marked and just

    15          have you let me know if that is your signature that is

    16          on that statement.  (Handed)

    17      A.  Yes, it is.

    18      Q.  Okay.   Your Honour, I am getting ready to go into a

    19          second statement now, do you want to take the break now?

    20      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, we will come back at 4.30.   The

    21          Trial Chamber will resume at 4.30.

    22                            (Short adjournment).

    23      (4.30 pm)

    24      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you may proceed.

    25      MR. ACKERMAN:   Thank you very much your Honour.

Page 5548

     1      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Remind him he is still on his oath.

     2      THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Kuljanin, may I remind you that you are

     3          still under oath?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:   Your Honour, with the assistance of the

     6          usher, I will ask that another statement be shown to

     7          this witness and see if he can identify this one.

     8      MR. TURONE:  May I ask to see this second statement?

     9      MR. ACKERMAN:   It is my understanding that both of these

    10          were furnished to the office of the prosecutor months

    11          ago.   Of course I was not here months ago.

    12      MR. TURONE:   No, there was not given to the prosecution, so

    13          we would like please to serve it in English translation,

    14          too, please, if it is possible up.

    15      MR. ACKERMAN:   Let me give this to Mr. Turone (Handed).   Mr.

    16          Kuljanin, you have been handed a statement in

    17          Serbo-Croatian, I believe.   I would like the registry

    18          to tell us how it is marked.

    19      THE REGISTRAR:  Registrar D16/4.

    20      MR. ACKERMAN:   D16/4, do you recognise that document?

    21      A.  I do.

    22      Q.  That is your signature that appears at the end of that;

    23          correct?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  That is a statement that you gave to the Military

Page 5549

     1          Investigating Commission of the Fourth Corps on January

     2          11th, 1993; is it not?

     3      A.  That was when I just went there to sign a document.   I

     4          was not aware of what kind of statement was at stake.

     5      Q.  Well, if you look at the last sentence in that

     6          statement, it says:

     7                "I gave the statement voluntarily and I accept

     8          and sign it as such."

     9                Is that not what it says there?

    10      A.  I already said that we went there just to sign the

    11          statement and I only now see what it is that I signed.

    12      Q.  Well, your signature to that statement, among other

    13          things, was an agreement that you accepted it and signed

    14          it voluntarily.   Then it was witnessed by five people,

    15          was it not?

    16      A.  The truth is that I just signed it.   I do not know how

    17          many witnesses there were, nor whether there were any

    18          witnesses.   I put that signature in SUP in Musala.  It

    19          was not just me.   There were several of us and I now

    20          see what I have signed.

    21      Q.  Is this the first time you have seen it since the day

    22          that you signed it?

    23      A.  It is the first time I see this statement.

    24      Q.  There are a number of things in it that you would

    25          concede are absolutely true are not there?

Page 5550

     1      A.  I did not see it, so I do not know what it says.   I do

     2          not know what part of it I can confirm and what not.

     3      Q.  Well, you can certainly confirm that during your

     4          attempted escape from Bradina you came across a

     5          TO member armed with a rifle.  You disarmed him and he

     6          agreed to show you the way to Kalinovik.  You would

     7          agree with that, would you not?

     8      A.  No, he happened to come across us.   He suddenly found

     9          himself amidst us and he did not really have time to use

    10          his rifle.   So, it was just carelessness.   We had no

    11          problems with him, nor did he have any problems with

    12          us.  We just asked the boy to lead us to the way to

    13          Kalinovik.

    14      Q.  But you wound up disarming him?  You took his weapon.

    15          Somebody in your group took his weapon?

    16      A.  Yes, somebody did take his rifle from him.

    17      Q.  And he failed to survive that experience also, did he

    18          not?

    19      A.  What do you mean, he did not survive.

    20      Q.  He was killed, was he not?

    21      A.  No, no, that is not true that he was killed.

    22      Q.  Is it not also true that, during your escape, this guard

    23          that you kidnapped and used in the escape that you told

    24          us in a very humanitarian way that you let go and let go

    25          home was also killed, not let go home, by you guys, did

Page 5551

     1          not you guys kill him too?

     2      A.  That is not true.   That is not correct.   There is

     3          evidence.   There are doctors who established the cause

     4          of his death and the place of his death, and as for us

     5          we treated him in a very humanitarian manner, if we are

     6          talking about the guards when we escaped from the camp.

     7      Q.  Did you kill anyone else during the process of that

     8          escape?

     9      A.  No, my group, the group I was in at Ljuta did not.   As

    10          for the other group that split from us, I am not sure.

    11          I was not there, so I cannot say.   They may have.   I

    12          cannot confirm that.

    13      Q.  There is no question about whether that guard that was

    14          with you during your escape wound up dead.  You agree

    15          with that; correct?

    16      A.  That is what I heard.   They found him, a commission

    17          came on the spot.   The doctors came.   They established

    18          the cause of death.   He was not killed.   He was not

    19          tortured.   We treated him like human beings and he

    20          treated us correctly.

    21      Q.  Now in this statement you say that Rajko Djordjic came

    22          to Bradina in March 1992 and took command of the

    23          village; correct?

    24      A.  I have no idea about Rajko Djordjic, nor do I know the

    25          man well.   I just know him by sight.  He was working in

Page 5552

     1          Konjic.  I was in Bradina, so that I do not know much

     2          about Rajko or when he came from Konjic.   I just knew

     3          through a relative of his that he was working in a

     4          company in Konjic.  I do not even know which.   So

     5          I cannot say much about him.

     6      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, I am not asking you that question.   That

     7          was an interesting answer, but I want you to look at the

     8          statement.   You have got it there, please look at it.

     9          My question is, does it not say there that in March 1992

    10          Rajko Djordjic came to Bradina and immediately took

    11          command in the village, yes or no, does it say that?

    12      A.  It does, as you say, but I already said that I signed a

    13          document without knowing what was in it.

    14      Q.  I understand that you want to sit here and deny the

    15          truth of the things that are in the statement that you

    16          signed, but I am going to insist on asking you the

    17          questions as to what is in that statement and insist you

    18          tell me whether it is there or not.  Can you tell me?

    19      A.  Yes.

    20      Q.  Okay.   That statement also says there were four mortars

    21          located in Bradina, does it not?

    22      A.  Yes.

    23      Q.  That statement also said that there was a radio

    24          transmitter RC-320 near the meteorological station, does

    25          it not?

Page 5553

     1      A.  Whatever you ... I do not know.

     2      Q.  It is in front of you.   Please look at it.

     3      A.  I have already said that I signed a document without

     4          knowing what was in it.   I can read the document and

     5          then tell you what it says, but whatever it says there,

     6          I really do not know Rajko Djordjic nor do I remember

     7          any radio station nor what position Rajko Djordjic had.

     8      Q.  It says in the statement, does it not, that you were a

     9          squad leader and names the people what were in your

    10          squad, does it not?

    11      A.  I heard that from the defence and I have already said

    12          that I was not a squad leader and that I do not even

    13          know some of the names that you read out, that are

    14          mentioned in this list and whose commanders I allegedly

    15          was.

    16      Q.  Do you understand that I am just asking you what the

    17          statement says.   I am only asking, does it not say that

    18          in the statement? .   I wanted to confirm that is what

    19          it says in the statement.   Now the answer to that

    20          question must be yes, that it says that you were a squad

    21          leader and names some people.   That is true.  It says

    22          that in the statement, does it not?

    23      A.  Yes, it says that in the statement, but I was not a

    24          leader of those men, nor do I know some of the names or

    25          some of the people whose names are on that list.

Page 5554

     1      Q.  Now, I want to go back for a moment to the statement

     2          that you gave to Mr. Hortemo of the office of the

     3          prosecutor in October 1995.   If for some reason today

     4          you decided you wanted to deny the contents of that

     5          statement, you could simply say to this Tribunal 'I did

     6          not get a chance to read it.   I have no idea what the

     7          in it.'  You could say that about this statement too,

     8          could not you?

     9      A.  No, no.   I can only say what I know.   I cannot say I

    10          was a commander and that I led some people that I did

    11          not lead and some of which I did not even know.   How

    12          can I confirm that?  How can I say that?

    13      Q.  According to this piece of paper that you have there in

    14          front of you, that is what you told five members of the

    15          Military Investigating Commission on January 11th

    16          1993.   That is what this paper indicates, does it not?

    17      A.  Yes, yes, that is what it says in the paper, but the

    18          circumstances were such that one had to sign whatever

    19          was put on the table.  You just had to sign it.   It was

    20          not a normal prison.   It was not a normal

    21          investigation.   It was a camp, a concentration camp in

    22          which people were tortured and killed.   When one

    23          brother hit another brother and did all kind of other

    24          things that I would rather not talk about.

    25      Q.  But on January 11th, 1993, you were not at Celebici, you

Page 5555

     1          had already left there; right?

     2      A.  Yes, but I was in the Musala camp.   It was not a hotel;

     3          that too was a camp.

     4      Q.  So the position you want to take here today is that in

     5          both of these statements that I have shown you, the one

     6          from Celebici camp, the one from Musala, that the things

     7          you said there were not true, largely?

     8      A.  I did not make this such statements, especially for this

     9          latter one.  I do not remember stating anything.   I

    10          just know we went to the military command in SUP to sign

    11          some documents and at certain point we were even told we

    12          were signing discharge papers and that we would be

    13          released.

    14      Q.  Either of these statements, at least on the face of

    15          them, indicated that you signed them voluntarily and

    16          that you -- that they were true to the best of your

    17          knowledge.   Both of those statements that we have been

    18          talking about here for the last few minutes, say that do

    19          you they not?

    20      A.  I was not in a position to quarrel with them or to have

    21          a fight with them.   Of course it had to be voluntary.

    22          How else do you think?

    23      Q.  The same is true of the statement that you gave to the

    24          office of the prosecutor.  You signed a statement at the

    25          end of that acknowledging that it was voluntary and true

Page 5556

     1          to the best of your knowledge?

     2      A.  You are talking about the prosecution of the Tribunal.

     3      Q.  Yes?

     4      A.  Yes.

     5      Q.  And for this --

     6      A.  Something different.

     7      Q.  And for this Tribunal to try to figure out which of

     8          these statements you were telling the truth in, the only

     9          thing we have is your word saying 'I did not mean that

    10          one but I meant that one'; correct?

    11      MR. TURONE:   Objection, your Honour.   Asked and answered

    12          several times by the witness.   He explained how come he

    13          had to sign the two statements in 1992 and 1993.   He

    14          explained something quite different about the statement

    15          given to the office of the prosecution.

    16      MR. ACKERMAN:   Well, your Honour, I can just respond to that

    17          that just before we left here for a fortnight break, the

    18          prosecutor put on a witness from the Commission saying

    19          that these people were not forced to make statements.

    20          The statements were given absolutely voluntarily and so

    21          there is a conflict between the witness they put on two

    22          weeks ago and this one, apparently as to whether these

    23          statement are voluntary or not.   I will leave that up

    24          to the Court do wrestle with.

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   I would say the

Page 5557

     1          same thing, because if we are equating it to the

     2          Commission, the Commission and the prosecutors, the

     3          investigating officers might think otherwise.

     4      MR. ACKERMAN:   I want to go to something else now.

     5      MR. TURONE:   Your Honour, may I ask, please, that the two

     6          statements of 1992 and 1993 be admitted in evidence

     7          because the fact that they are in many parts almost

     8          identical, even in the wording, supports the witness's

     9          testimony of today that the statement were written by

    10          others and only signed by him.

    11      MR. ACKERMAN:   Your Honour, I totally agree with that.  I

    12          want them admitted and I was going to do that later on

    13          in this process.   I do not think we have an English

    14          version of that marked yet, and that probably should be

    15          done, but the two Serbo-Croatian versions I know are

    16          marked.

    17                JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: :  The application appears to

    18          be unanimous, the defence and the prosecution.

    19      MR. ACKERMAN:   Now, the part of that that I don't accept is

    20          Mr. Turone's testimony that he made in terms of his

    21          offer.   That is for the Court to decide and not for him

    22          to give testimony about.   Here is an English version of

    23          that one and they are admitted, I guess, is that

    24          correct, your Honour?

    25      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Well, they are.

Page 5558

     1      THE REGISTRAR:  The first statement will be D 15/4 and

     2          D16/4.  I would need a translation of the first

     3          statement.

     4      JUDGE JAN:  Can I have the statement?

     5      MR. ACKERMAN:   That is the one I just handed you.   Here are

     6          three more that we can give to the judges.   This is the

     7          first one.   You should have already the translation of

     8          the second one, do you not, or did we just give that to

     9          the prosecution?

    10      THE REGISTRAR:  You just gave it to the prosecution.

    11      MR. ACKERMAN:   I have one marked up.  Here we go.   All

    12          right.   Are you familiar with a gentleman by the name

    13          of Desimir Mrkajic?

    14      A.  Yes.

    15      Q.  Mr. Mrkajic was in that group of you who escaped from

    16          Bradina in May 1992 during the attack on Bradina;

    17          correct?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  Is Bradina a very, very big city?

    20      A.  It is not a city; it's a village, a rather large

    21          village.

    22      Q.  Is it a village that is so large that people on one side

    23          of town have no idea what is going on on the other side

    24          of town?

    25      A.  Yes, because it is scattered; it is a large village.

Page 5559

     1      Q.  So someone who was there could say that everybody in

     2          Bradina was armed and defended the city and somebody

     3          else there could say nobody there was armed and we did

     4          not defend the city, and those would not be inconsistent

     5          statements, because it is so big; is that true?

     6      A.  I apologise.   I did not understand you at all.

     7          I thought you were not asking me anything.

     8      Q.  I am asking you this.   One of the dilemmas that I have

     9          is between the testimony you gave here today, for

    10          instance, that to your knowledge nobody in Bradina was

    11          armed, and other witnesses that we have heard here from

    12          Bradina who said basically everybody there was armed.

    13          I am just curious as to how two different people could

    14          have two different views of that?

    15      A.  But how is it possible for somebody who lived in

    16          Bradina, and there were no Muslims, it was virtually a

    17          pure Serb village, to force somebody to tell newspaper

    18          reporters that he had raped Muslim women and tortured

    19          Muslim children?  Why is that possible?  It is not

    20          possible at the same time for somebody to say that there

    21          were military formation.  There were tanks.  There were

    22          planes, and who knows what else and besides which they

    23          beat us and killed us.

    24      Q.  I am not talking about that; I am talking about someone

    25          who was a Serbian resident of Bradina who has been here

Page 5560

     1          as a witness, someone who you probably know.   What I do

     2          not understand is how --

     3      A.  I am not interested what other people said.   I am not

     4          interested in other people's statements.   I came here

     5          to make a statement of my own and to tell the honourable

     6          Court the truth, to tell them what I know and what I

     7          lived through and what some other people said.  To whom

     8          they said it, when they said it, I am simply not

     9          interested.

    10      Q.  Do you think Desimir Mrkajic "who I know" would make a

    11          false statement in Bradina at that time?

    12      A.  I really do not know what his character is.   I do not

    13          know what he would say and what he would say about other

    14          people and to whom he would say it.  I really do not

    15          know.

    16      Q.  If someone were to describe you as a "defender from

    17          Bradina", you would quarrel with that description, would

    18          you not?  You would say that was not true.

    19      A.  Whoever knows me can describe me and why could not he

    20          describe me?  It is not impossible.

    21      Q.  If someone said you were a defender of Bradina in the

    22          context of a military operation, that would not be true,

    23          would it?

    24      A.  Let me tell you something, I was not in a position to

    25          defend the village, my house, Bradina.   If there were

Page 5561

     1          military formations, if we had weapons and if we had the

     2          strength, we certainly would have defended it and

     3          succeeded in defending it.   I do not know what you

     4          expect me to say.   Am I here put on trial?  Am I being

     5          accused for being at home, for being captured for having

     6          spent time in the camp.   I simply do not understand

     7          this.

     8      Q.  What is being done is you are being asked questions on

     9          cross-examination.   I am not accusing you of anything,

    10          do you understand that?

    11      A.  No.   That is how I feel.

    12      Q.  My job is to ask you questions and your job is to answer

    13          them.   I am not accusing you of anything.   I am trying

    14          to find out what you are going to say when I ask these

    15          questions.   That is what cross-examination is.

    16      A.  I am doing my best to answer the gentleman as clearly as

    17          possible and with as many details so as to make myself

    18          clear.  Maybe I am not literate enough to explain things

    19          as I would like them to be explained.

    20      Q.  I think you are doing fine, okay.

    21                I want to go to Celebici now, and I want to take

    22          you to the time that you were confined in tunnel nine

    23          during that first 110 days, okay?

    24      A.  Yes.

    25      Q.  Now, the first thing I want to ask you about is the way

Page 5562

     1          you were seated there in tunnel nine.   It is true, is

     2          it not, that the person seated right close to the door,

     3          the first position in the tunnel was Desimir Mrkajic?

     4      A.  As far as I can remember, yes.

     5      Q.  Then as you come further into the tunnel there is he

     6          will bother Mrkajic, Brane Mrkajic, Ratko Kuljanin,

     7          Momir Mrkajic Nikola Mrkajic and then you.   You were

     8          number 7, right?

     9      A.  I think so.

    10      Q.  And then number eight was Andelko Kuljanin, then number

    11          nine, further into the tunnel, was a person named Sreten

    12          Zelenovic; correct?

    13      A.  I think so.

    14      Q.  Now anything that happened near or right outside that

    15          front door, I think you would agree with me that the

    16          person who had the best opportunity to observe what was

    17          happening would have been Desimir Mrkajic, since he was

    18          sitting right at the front door.  Do you agree with

    19          that?

    20      A.  I do.   I agree.

    21      Q.  You have described for this Court a beating of Slavko

    22          Susic just outside that door; correct?

    23      A.  Yes, when he was tortured by Zenga in front of the door.

    24      Q.  Your claim to this Court is that one of the persons who

    25          was beating him was Zenga, Senad Landzo; correct?

Page 5563

     1      A.  Yes, that is what I said and I am repeating it now, one

     2          of them.

     3      Q.  Yes, one of them.   There was also Osman Dedic, Focak,

     4          Nervin Zilic; right?

     5      A.  I did not mention Osman Dedic and the other man in the

     6          context of Susic, I only mentioned Landzo and Delic

     7          because I saw that it was them who tortured him.   These

     8          other people may have tortured him in front of the

     9          Command building, but I did not see that.   I am talking

    10          about people I saw torturing him.

    11      Q.  You deny then that you told Mr. Hortemo in the statement

    12          that you gave Mr. Hortemo that:

    13                "I watched Azim Delic; Senad Landzo, nicknamed

    14           'Zenga'; Osman Dedic; someone called Focak and Nervin

    15          Zilic beat him."

    16                Are you saying you did not tell that to

    17          Mr. Hortemo?

    18      A.  As far as I remember, I did not say that about Dedic and

    19          the other people that you listed.   I did say about

    20          Osman when I was being beaten that he was there, and as

    21          regards Susic, I only mentioned Delic and Landzo.

    22      Q.  So this is another one of those statements that you want

    23          to say in spite of your signature on it that what you

    24          said in that statement was also not true?

    25      A.  No, I really do not recall having stated that.   Perhaps

Page 5564

     1          I did, perhaps I did something else in mind, but

     2          I really cannot say that they participated in it because

     3          they did not.

     4      Q.  Of course it is your contention before this Tribunal

     5          that when that beating of Slavko Susic was going on

     6          outside the door of tunnel number nine, the door was

     7          open so that you could see what was happening, that is

     8          your position, is it not?

     9      A.  Yes.   Yes.

    10      Q.  Do you have any idea why it would be that your

    11          acquaintance Desimir Mrkajic would say that the door was

    12          closed and that he could only hear what was going on

    13          outside?

    14      A.  That is not true.   I do not know what he stated and

    15          when he stated what he had state.   I really have no

    16          idea, but I know full well and I saw it with my own eyes

    17          because the door was open, that Landzo was torturing

    18          him.  I saw Landzo torture him in front of the door and

    19          I saw what he was doing to him.  It was not only me.

    20          There was other prisoners who saw this with their own

    21          eyes.   If only Desimir Mrkajic is to be believed, that

    22          is not that.

    23      Q.  Okay, is that all you want to say about that?  I take it

    24          your position is --

    25      A.  I said everything regarding Susic, everything that I had

Page 5565

     1          seen and everything that I lived through.

     2      Q.  Is your position that if Desimir Mrkajic was to have

     3          told someone that, that he is wrong; correct?

     4      A.  There was some other people there apart from Desimir

     5          Mrkajic who saw what happened and other people should be

     6          asked what happened.

     7      Q.  That was not my question.   The question was if Desimir

     8          Mrkajic told that, that would be wrong, that would be

     9          your position, would it not?

    10      A.  Yes, absolutely.

    11      Q.  I would like the usher to show you a photograph now.

    12          This is a photograph from I think Prosecution Exhibit

    13          1.   I believe it is photograph number 50.   It is this

    14          one right in the very back of the book (indicating).

    15          I think during direct examination you described that

    16          photograph as showing a pole that you were tied to

    17          during a time you were beaten by various persons.

    18          Could you show us again which of those poles it was you

    19          claimed to have been tied to.   Point to it, not on the

    20          screen but on the ELMO, please.

    21      A.  Just let me say this, then I will show you.   I do not

    22          have a sufficiently clear photograph as regards the

    23          poles themselves.  They are original and that is the

    24          kind of poles that I was tied to.  I believe that they

    25          are quite near tunnel number nine, quite near the

Page 5566

     1          tunnel.   The photograph is not quite clear, but I

     2          believe that these are the poles in front of tunnel

     3          number nine, right adjacent to it in fact.

     4      Q.  Look at the photograph sitting on the ELMO.   Turn round

     5          and look at it directly.   It is a much clearer

     6          photograph and it may help if you see it over there.

     7          Do not look on the screen, look at the actual

     8          photograph.

     9      A.  As regards the poles, they are familiar and the image is

    10          clear.   They are those poles and I believe that they

    11          are right next to the tunnel, right on the tunnel.

    12      Q.  Were you tied to more than one of those poles by your

    13          statement, or not?

    14      A.  I was tied to one of them, as I only have two hands.

    15      Q.  Can you tell us which one?

    16      A.  I cannot tell you exactly which one.   One of these two

    17          poles it was.

    18      Q.  Would it be one of the thicker ones or one of the

    19          narrower ones; do you know that?

    20      A.  I do not know that either.   I do not know.   I was in

    21          no situation to really register precisely the type of

    22          pole I was tied to because I had been beaten and I was

    23          being beaten.   I was really shocked when I saw them

    24          bringing a rope to tie me with.   In fact I thought at

    25          the moment I would be hanged.

Page 5567

     1      Q.  Were you tied to that pole with your back to the pole

     2          with your hands behind you round the pole; is that the

     3          way you were tied to the pole?

     4      A.  My hands were around the pole and I was facing the pole.

     5      Q.  Were you tied loosely to the pole or tightly to the

     6          pole?

     7      A.  I was tied tightly to it.   My hands were tied tightly

     8          and I was also gagged with some sort of a rag.

     9      Q.  The people who you have told us were involved in this

    10          incident were Senad Landzo, Camdzic and Zilic; is that

    11          correct?

    12      A.  Landzo was there, he tied me to the pole, and Osman

    13          Dedic, Camdzic and I do not know.  There was another

    14          one.   I do not know who it was.

    15      Q.  If you told Mr. Hortemo of the office of the prosecutor

    16          that it was a person name Zilic, or something like that,

    17          does that refresh your memory?

    18      A.  It could have been him.   I really did not remember

    19          well, cannot remember well the names of the guard.   I

    20          remember their faces better.

    21      Q.  You were beaten for approximately 45 minutes while tied

    22          around that pole; correct?

    23      A.  All I can say exactly to a minute or 10 minutes.   It

    24          lasted about half an hour, perhaps 45 minutes.  I cannot

    25          say precisely.

Page 5568

     1      Q.  And you were beaten by, beaten on the back and beaten in

     2          the kidney area, that sort of thing?

     3      A.  Yes, and in the head after having been ordered to kneel,

     4          and I kneeled there as they hit me.  When they stopped I

     5          could not walk.

     6      Q.  Can you tell me approximately how many times you were

     7          hit while you were in that position?

     8      A.  Not only if I had someone in charge to count the blows

     9          and tell me afterwards I could do that.   I really have

    10          no idea how many times I have been hit.   I only know

    11          how I ended and how I felt afterwards.

    12      Q.  So prior to being tied to that pole you had already been

    13          beaten prior to that so you were in pretty bad shape

    14          before that beating even began, was that your position?

    15      A.  Certainly I was beaten before and beaten severely.

    16      Q.  So you are tied to this pole with your head up against

    17          the pole and four people standing behind you beating

    18          you, I take it you cannot tell us who it was that hit

    19          you with each of those blows.   You were not able to see

    20          who it was that was hitting you; is that correct?

    21      A.  Yes, I saw these persons when I left the tunnel number

    22          nine when Zenga placed a rifle barrel to my head.   Then

    23          he also brandished this rope.  He had this rope with

    24          which he tied me to the pole.   First he said they would

    25          hang me, but they did not.   They tied me up to the pole

Page 5569

     1          and they beat me and Dedic, as I already said, Osman and

     2          Camdzic were with Zenga on that occasion and another man

     3          whose name I cannot recall.

     4      Q.  Yes, I understand all that, but that was not my

     5          question.   It is probably that I asked it wrong.  Let

     6          me try is it again.   At the time the blows were being

     7          struck, you are not able to tell this Tribunal who it

     8          was that struck each of those blows, which one of those

     9          four.  You just know that someone among those four

    10          people was beating you?

    11      A.  All of them were beating me, certainly all them hit me.

    12      Q.  That is just an assumption on your part because you

    13          could not see who was hitting you because you were

    14          lashed to a pole and could not swivel your head round

    15          backwards and watch, could you?

    16      A.  No, I could not turn my head and watch them beating me.

    17      Q.  All right.   Now it is true -- excuse me just a second,

    18          your Honour.   You were at Celebici when the

    19          International Committee of the Red Cross came the first

    20          time; correct?

    21      A.  Yes.

    22      Q.  And you know that by that time Mr. Landzo had already

    23          left Celebici and was there no longer?

    24      A.  That is not true.

    25      Q.  Do you know of an organisation by the name of the

Page 5570

     1          Association of Detainees?

     2      A.  No.

     3      Q.  Are you a member of any organisation called the

     4          Association of Detainees in Belgrade?

     5      A.  No, I am not.

     6      Q.  You have never been to their offices?

     7      A.  No, I have not.

     8      Q.  Never talked to anyone there?

     9      A.  I have never talked to anyone from such an

    10          association.   I do not know of any such association.

    11          I do not know what their function or their task is.

    12      Q.  Prior to your coming here to give your testimony, aside

    13          from the three statements that we have talked about,

    14          have you talked with anyone outside The Hague with any

    15          kind of an observation or association about your

    16          experiences and given them any kind of statements?

    17      A.  No, I know of no association.   I have not talked to

    18          anyone apart from this here final.

    19      Q.  How about the Serbian Council Information Centre; does

    20          that ring any bells with you?

    21      A.  No, it does not.

    22      Q.  Do you know a gentleman by the name of Petar Fjodovan?

    23      A.  It is the first time I heard of it.

    24      Q.  Branka Jovanovic?

    25      A.  No.

Page 5571

     1      Q.  Can you remind me of the date that you claimed to have

     2          escaped from Musala?

     3      A.  I believe that it was 3rd November 1993.

     4      Q.  And Relja Mrkajic that was with you was not the Dr Relja

     5          Mrkajic, was it?

     6      A.  No, it was not.

     7      Q.  That is all the questions I have, thank you.

     8      A.  You are welcome.

     9      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Thank you very much.   Any other

    10          cross-examination?

    11                    Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic.

    12      Q.  Good afternoon, Your Honours, it is my turn for the

    13          cross-examination now.

    14      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you may proceed.

    15      Q.  May I proceed?

    16      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   Yes, you may.

    17      Q.  Thank you.   Mr. Kuljanin, you must be tired after this

    18          whole day of questioning, but before I start with my

    19          questions I should like to tell you something that you

    20          probably know.   I am defendant's counsel for Mr. Zejnil

    21          Delalic and since I am the first person to be putting

    22          questions to you who speaks and understands your

    23          language and you understand mine, I would like by

    24          warning you to warn myself too that we bear in mind that

    25          what I am asking and what you are answering is being

Page 5572

     1          translated, so that in order to make it possible for

     2          their Honours and everyone else here in the courtroom to

     3          be able to follow, I ask you to wait for my question to

     4          be translated, to give your answer and I will wait for

     5          the translation of your answer.   It may seem to us to

     6          be rather slow, this process of question and answer, but

     7          that is the only possible procedure.   Have you

     8          understood what I am saying.  Yes, thank you thank

     9          you.

    10                Mr. Kuljanin, in the course of the examination in

    11          chief by the prosecution you gave some information

    12          regarding your work, what you did and where you

    13          worked.   I would just like to ask whether as a caterer

    14          or rather as a waiter, were you working at Stojcevac

    15          until the beginning of the war, that is in the Hotels

    16          Igman, the work organisation of the winter Olympic

    17          games; is that correct?

    18      A.  In 1985 I completed the catering school in Sarajevo and

    19          in 1986 I think it was, that the first time that I went

    20          to Bjeljasinca mountain where you worked in the Hotel

    21          Smok.   Afterwards, as necessary, I was transferred to

    22          Hotel Igman, as all those hotels belonged to a single

    23          company, Stojcevac, Igman and Bjeljasinca.   I would be

    24          sent where I was needed.   So I cannot tell you exactly

    25          where I worked at what time as regards those three

Page 5573

     1          hotels.

     2      Q.  But in any event until the beginning of the war you

     3          worked in the various facilities belonging to this

     4          organisation as a waiter?

     5      A.  Yes, but more recently towards the end I was on

     6          holiday.   I had some days off, but in any event all my

     7          documents were left there in the company in Sarajevo.

     8          Whether any of that was recovered, I do not know.

     9      Q.  Mr. Kuljanin, since we have only just started the

    10          cross-examination let me repeat again the warning

    11          I made.   You understand me and you are answering me

    12          immediately but you can hear the English translation and

    13          only when you hear the end of the translation will you

    14          then answer.

    15      A.  No, I really do not listen to the translation.

    16      Q.  I can already see that the questions and answers are

    17          getting blended together.

    18      A.  I can only hear you.

    19      Q.  Will you please pay attention because on these other

    20          earphones you will be able to hear the English

    21          translation of my question.   When that translation

    22          comes to an end will you answer me then and I will

    23          continue with my questions?  In view of the fact that

    24          you said that you had worked in several facilities

    25          belonging to the same company, the winter Olympic games,

Page 5574

     1          as it was called, can you tell the court that these

     2          facilities, Stojcevac, Igman were facilities close to

     3          the city of Sarajevo, or rather on the territory of the

     4          municipalities belonging to the city of Sarajevo; is

     5          that correct?

     6      A.  Yes, that is correct.

     7      Q.  And for the last five or six years you were mostly

     8          living in those same facilities in which you worked, you

     9          were temporarily accommodated there, whereas on weekends

    10          and on your free days you went home to Bradina; is that

    11          so?

    12      A.  Yes.

    13      Q.  You went to work for the last time somewhere in April

    14          1992; is that so?

    15      A.  I think so.   I think that is so.

    16      Q.  And then you returned from your work safely to Bradina,

    17          where you stayed until the combat operations that you

    18          have been testifying about all day today?

    19      A.  Yes, I was in Bradina.

    20      Q.  From your place of work in Stojcevac or Mount Igman you

    21          went to Bradina and reached Bradina safely without any

    22          problems; is that so?

    23      A.  Yes.

    24      Q.  At that time as a citizen of both Sarajevo and Bradina

    25          you knew that the situation in the city of Sarajevo was

Page 5575

     1          very difficult after the events of April 6th; is that

     2          so?

     3      A.  May I just say that I was in Bradina before April 6th.

     4          I reached Bradina, I cannot recall the exact date, but

     5          it was before April 6th.

     6      Q.  As a citizen of Bradina you were monitoring what was

     7          happening in Sarajevo after the proclaimation of Bosnia

     8          Herzegovina?

     9      A.  Yes.

    10      Q.  And as a citizen of Konjic and Bosnia Herzegovina you

    11          knew that because of those events a state of immediate

    12          threat of war had been introduced in Bosnia Herzegovina?

    13      A.  Yes.

    14      Q.  And you know as a military conscript that that state

    15          means that a work obligation is being introduced on a

    16          footing of equality with a military obligation and that

    17          employed people were duty bound to go to work?

    18      A.  Yes.

    19      Q.  In spite of that, Mr. Kuljanin, you did not go to work,

    20          nor did you report to your work organisation or company

    21          to receive other military assignment; is that so?

    22      A.  It is.

    23      Q.  As you were born in Konjic and that is your permanent

    24          residence, you were also aware that after this

    25          proclaimation of general mobilisation you should have

Page 5576

     1          reported to the military department of the municipal

     2          community of Konjic?

     3      A.  Yes.

     4      Q.  You stayed in Bradina.  You did not report to the

     5          territorial defence of the Konjic municipality?

     6      A.  Yes, that is so.

     7      Q.  Since under your military obligations you may also be

     8          appointed to the reserve police force you did not report

     9          to the MUP of the city of Konjic, did you?

    10      A.  I did not.

    11      Q.  Your Honours.

    12      JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE:   You are quite correct, this is a

    13          convenient time to break.   Quite right.   We will

    14          continue tomorrow morning.

    15      MS. RESIDOVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.

    16                           (The court adjourned)