Witnesses: Mr. Milenko Kuljanin & Mr. Wolfgang Navrat

align Page 5577

1   Tuesday, 5th August 1997

2   (10.00 am).

3   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Morning ladies and gentlemen. Can we

4   have the witness? Could you please invite the witness.

5   MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, for the Prosecution, my

6   name is Niemann, and I appear with Mr. Turone and

7   Ms. McHenry, and we are assisted at our table by

8   Ms. Van Dusschoten.

9   (Witness enters court)

10   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances for the

11   Defence, please?

12   MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning your Honour, my name is

13   Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

14   Delalic. My co-counsel is Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,

15   Professor of Law from Canada.

16   MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, my name is Olujic,

17   defence counsel for Mr. Mucic. With me in the team is my

18   colleague Michael Greaves, attorney from the

19   United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

20   MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your honours, my name is Salih

21   Karabdic. With me in the team is Mr. Thomas Moran,

22   lawyer from Houston Texas.

23   MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning your honours, I am John

24   Ackerman. I appear on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo, and

25   with me is my co-counsel, Cynthia McMurray.

Page 5578

1   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly remind the witness you

2   are still under oath.

3   THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Kuljanin, you are still under oath.

4   MILENKO KULJANIN (continued)

5   Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

6   Q. Good morning, Mr. Kuljanin.

7   A. Good morning.

8   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I should now like to go back to some

9   questions that were discussed yesterday in the course of

10   the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination by my

11   colleagues. I think these will be questions that can

12   very easily be answered because you have lived in Konjic

13   for a long time and you are familiar with the conditions

14   there. Have I made myself clear?

15   A. Yes.

16   Q. Yesterday, Mr. Kuljanin, you said that you knew that the

17   house of Mr. Zejnil Delalic was situated on the road

18   leading out of Konjic to Mostar; is that correct?

19   A. Yes.

20   Q. You also stated that in that house there used to be a

21   car wash service or a car maintenance shop as you said;

22   is that correct?

23   A. Yes.

24   Q. You confirmed in this courtroom that you knew that on

25   the ground floor of this house, a modern discotheque had

Page 5579

1   been built and had functioned there before the war, is

2   that so?

3   A. Yes.

4   Q. As far as I can recall, you also said that earlier, you

5   yourself personally had visited the car repair shop and

6   especially the discotheque, is that so?

7   A. Yes.

8   Q. You also said that sometimes in view of your occupation

9   and the discotheque's needs, you had provided beer for

10   the discotheque?

11   A. Maybe you did not understand me, I accompanied my

12   colleague who was supplying the discotheque with beer.

13   Q. Thank you for this clarification, I obviously did not

14   understand you quite well. Now it is quite clear.

15   Since I have now repeated in order to verify whether

16   I understood properly what you said yesterday, I am sure

17   you will agree with me if I say that even before the

18   war, you knew very well where Mr. Delalic's house stood

19   and that you were able to describe it, is that so?

20   A. Yes.

21   Q. Therefore, Mr. Kuljanin, you did not need the war nor to

22   spend time in Celebici to be able to tell anyone who

23   would ask you where that house is and what it contained,

24   is that not so?

25   A. It is.

Page 5580

1   Q. As both of us knows, further details regarding the

2   position of the house, but for the benefit of the court

3   I would like to ask you to clear up a few more details

4   with me.

5   You said that viewing the house from the direction

6   of Sarajevo or Konjic, the main road from Konjic to

7   Mostar passes the house on the right-hand side of the

8   house if you are going from Sarajevo, then the house is

9   on the right. Right of the house is the main road and

10   on the left is the Nerveta river?

11   A. When you are going along the main road from Sarajevo to

12   Mostar the house is on the right-hand side, and next to

13   the house also on the right-hand side is the Nerveta

14   river.

15   Q. On the left side of the house is the main highway?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. Both the house and the road are situated under a steep

18   slope, is that so?

19   A. Yes.

20   Q. You know, Mr. Kuljanin, that particularly in the autumn

21   and in the spring but also in the event of heavy rains

22   in Konjic, there may be a great deal of water, mud and

23   stones coming from that slope; is that so?

24   A. Yes.

25   Q. You also know that if that occurs the traffic gets

Page 5581

1   jammed on this highway because there is no other road

2   leading in or out of Konjic, is that not so?

3   A. It is.

4   Q. You are also aware, Mr. Kuljanin, that in such a

5   situation the public maintenance service in charge of

6   sanitation and hygiene take steps to clear the road of

7   the mud and the pebbles and stones, is that not so?

8   A. Yes, under normal conditions of life that was so.

9   Q. That is what I am asking you. There is debris collects

10   on the road, it also spreads to a part of the garden or

11   front garden of Mr. Delalic, is that not so?

12   A. Yes, it is.

13   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, the situation was rather like that, was it

14   not, when you visited this region as regards the debris,

15   the mud and the stones?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. At that time, there were quite a lot of troops there?

18   A. Yes, in the yard.

19   Q. You were talking also about the arrest of Juka Prazina?

20   A. I had not heard about that.

21   Q. At that time when you visited the house you saw nobody

22   but the troops?

23   A. Only the security guards who were watching the garden,

24   the yard and the house.

25   Q. Thank you, Mr. Kuljanin, we have now clarified the

Page 5582

1   circumstances that you referred to before this Tribunal

2   yesterday. I would now like to go back to Bradina and

3   the period of time you testified about, but to look into

4   some details which have not been cleared up so far,

5   namely you said that the combat operations on

6   May 5th when they broke out, you were in Bradina, is

7   that not so?

8   A. It is.

9   Q. And that a day later or

24   hours later into the combat

10   operations, you decided to retreat in the direction of

11   Jasica?

12   A. Yes, I did flee from the onslaught of Muslim units.

13   Q. Is it true that in Jasica you met Momir Mrkajic, Brano

14   Gligorevic and Milovan Gligorevic?

15   A. Yes.

16   Q. Those are all your neighbours from Bradina or the region

17   of Bradina?

18   A. Yes.

19   Q. Since you decided to cross into areas under the control

20   of the Serb forces with these neighbours of yours, you

21   intended to go to Hadzici by crossing Mount

22   Bjelijasinca?

23   A. We did not have a clear idea of where we wanted to go.

24   Q. But on that day in the hamlet of Jasica, in the house of

25   Mirko Dordic, you met your neighbour Zara Mrkajic 6?

Page 5583

1   A. Yes, at that same spot.

2   Q. You then learned from Zara Mrkajic that Rajko Dordic

3   with another group of people, local people, was also

4   leaving Bradina in the direction of Borci?

5   A. We had heard that they were moving somewhere, but Zara

6   did not tell us in which direction and we did not know

7   in which direction.

8   Q. With this group, which included Rajko Dordic, you met up

9   with this group in the village of Laniste?

10   A. It is not a village, it is a mountain and that is where

11   we met.

12   Q. You met there?

13   A. Yes, but by chance.

14   Q. And then you decided to try and proceed together to try

15   to reach Borci?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. If I am correct, and I may be refreshing your memory

18   when I give you the names of the people, in the group in

19   addition to yourself were the following people, Rajko

20   Dordic, Dragan Vujicic, somebody called Kulas from

21   Tarcin whose name I do not know, then another young man

22   from Tarcin known as Jacor, Zara Mrkajic, Branislav

23   Gligorevic, Milovan Gligorevic, Momir Mrkajic, Rajko

24   Kuljanin, Jelenko Kuljanin, Velimir Kuljanin, Milovan

25   Kuljanin, Snjezan Gligorevic, Mladen Gligorevic, known

Page 5584

1   as Hasko, Aleksa Gligorevic and some others whose name

2   I am not familiar. Have I listed correctly a certain

3   number of people who were with you in the group?

4   A. You enumerated roughly the names of the people that were

5   with us, but some of them joined us at the village of

6   Blace.

7   Q. At the time Mr. Kuljanin, there were about 30 of you?

8   A. Less, I think. There were less than 30.

9   Q. Along the way, you met with a number of TO ambushes

10   which you tried to avoid?

11   A. Yes.

12   Q. And when you met up with this other group in the village

13   of Blace, you decided, all of you, to head for

14   Kalinovik, reckoning that the road leading to Kalinovik

15   was safer?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. However on that road too near the village of Ljuta,

18   somebody fired at you so you scattered and fled towards

19   Nerveta and Zara Mrkajic got lost and separated from the

20   group?

21   A. Yes.

22   Q. That was the time when you captured the TO member whom

23   you referred you?

24   A. The man was captured later when he happened to run into

25   us.

Page 5585

1   Q. And then you took his M48 from him, is that so?

2   A. Yes.

3   Q. That boy promised to take you to Kalinovik?

4   A. Yes.

5   Q. And you led you for 2 or 3 kilometres?

6   A. Yes.

7   Q. And about 3 kilometres before reaching the village of

8   Ljuta you captured 2 more TO members?

9   A. When we captured the young boy we separated into two

10   groups and the second group, which I was not a part of,

11   they were the ones who probably captured those army

12   members, but I am not familiar with that.

13   Q. If I remind you that the young man you captured was

14   called Dzevlan?

15   A. I have no idea what his name was.

16   Q. If I say Karadzic Sucro, does that mean anything to you?

17   A. No, I only know the young man that we captured whom

18   I can remember his face, but I do not recall his name.

19   Q. The first to enter the village of Ljuta was Zara Mrkajic

20   and he was captured there?

21   A. He entered the village.

22   Q. And he called you to come down into the village as well?

23   A. He did.

24   Q. And in the village you met with Mirsad Fisic known as

25   Kolombo, a member of the TO, who also promised to take

Page 5586

1   you to Kalinovik?

2   A. I have no idea what his name was or who he was.

3   Q. But you know that a TO member put you up in the school?

4   A. There was not one member, there were several members.

5   Q. And they treated you correctly?

6   A. Yes, until they locked us up in the school.

7   Q. But Mr. Kuljanin, you can surely confirm that some people

8   from your group were not brought to the school in the

9   village of Ljuta but that in the process of fleeing,

10   they managed to cross over into Serb controlled

11   territory. Let me give you the names, Mitar Kuljanin.

12   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel please, take it more slowly so

13   that the interpreters can get it.

14   MS. RESIDOVIC: I am sorry, I keep warning others but

15   I myself forget often. Mr. Kuljanin, until you were put

16   up in the school, there was no mistreatment, you were

17   given correct treatment?

18   A. Yes, until the school.

19   Q. However, in the course of the night just before dawn

20   some other persons entered the school, not those you had

21   surrendered to, and then your troubles began?

22   A. Yes.

23   Q. Some of them said that Juko Karadzic, a TO member, had

24   been killed?

25   A. I have no idea.

Page 5587

1   Q. But you do know that one of the three captured persons,

2   Juko, Karadzic was killed on that occasion?

3   A. I only know of one person captured. I do not know about

4   the other two, nor am I familiar with the killing of

5   anyone, because the group I was in did not come across

6   those two people, nor did it kill anyone.

7   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I will not ask you about your crossing over

8   Bjeljasinca by truck to Konjic as you have told us about

9   that in detail during the examination-in-chief. Your

10   honours, I apologise. I do not know whether this is an

11   error, but I am being told that the list of names which

12   was confirmed by the witness does not appear in the

13   transcript, so is that a mistake or will the names be

14   added subsequently?

15   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was the period when you were so fast

16   that the interpreter could not get the names

17   accurately. If you still want to return to it, perhaps

18   you might repeat the question and go back to it so that

19   it will be correctly recorded.

20   MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, I will do that. Mr. Kuljanin,

21   I have already asked you but in view of the fact that

22   your answer has not been fully recorded in the

23   transcript, will you please confirm it once again, that

24   the group of about 30 people included the following

25   people, a group that you were in and that was heading

Page 5588

1   for Kalinovik. Mirko Dordic, Dragan Vujcic, Kulas from

2   Tarcin, whose name I do not know, Veko from Tarcin, Zara

3   Mrkajic, Branislav Gligorevic, Milovan Gligorevic, Momir

4   Mrkajic, Jelenko Milosevic, Rajko Kuljanin, Jelenko

5   Kuljanin, Velimir Kuljanin, Mitar Kuljanin, known as

6   Mico, Milorad Kuljanin, Milovan Kuljanin, Snjezan

7   Gligorevic, Mladen Gligorevic, known as Hasko, Radjov

8   Zivak, Aleksa Gligorevic. Will you please confirm, is

9   this part of the group that was moving with you towards

10   Kalinovik?

11   A. It is.

12   Q. Thank you. Since you have confirmed that some persons

13   from the group got separated and whom you did not see

14   later on and who were not brought to the school in

15   Ljuta, will you please confirm whether they are the

16   following persons: Mitar Kuljanin, Mladen Gligorevic,

17   known as Hasko Snjezan Gligorevic, Milorad Kuljanin,

18   Milovan Kuljanin, Zdravko Zuza and Jako from Tarcin; is

19   that correct?

20   A. I think it is.

21   Q. Thank you. I apologise, your Honours, I shall do my

22   best when such important things at least are in question

23   that I speak slowly and clearly so that everyone can

24   follow.

25   Mr. Kuljanin, you did not know the persons who

Page 5589

1   arrested you; is that correct?

2   A. That is correct.

3   Q. You did not know the persons either who took you aboard

4   the vehicle from the place of Ljuta to Bjelasnica and

5   later on to Konjic; is that correct?

6   A. That is correct.

7   Q. These are people that you did not know from Konjic, your

8   native town?

9   A. I did not know those people who took us from Ljuta and

10   from Igman to the Celebici camp, that is correct, I did

11   not.

12   Q. Thank you. Mr. Kuljanin, if everything which I have just

13   asked you and what you have confirmed stands in the

14   statement which you gave to the military investigative

15   commission in Celebici in the way in which you have

16   answered me, then that is correct?

17   A. I did not understand the question.

18   Q. If what I have just now asked you, or rather to put it

19   better your answers to my questions are contained also

20   in the statement which you made in Celebici, then that

21   part of the statement is correct, is that so?

22   A. That is correct, I do not know what stands in the

23   statement, but what you have just read to me now is

24   correct. I have just confirmed that that is correct.

25   Q. I should like to ask now, with the assistance of the

Page 5590

1   usher, for you to be shown the statement of June 8th,

2   which the proposal of my learned colleague Mr. Ackerman

3   was admitted yesterday as evidence, 15 D4. In the

4   Bosnian language, please. (Handed). Mr. Kuljanin,

5   I shall not ask you about the content of the statement.

6   Please take a look at the top of the statement. Is it

7   true that it reads:

8   "Good for co-operation", or "co-operative", on the

9   top of the first page?

10   A. Yes, I can see those words.

11   Q. I would also like to ask you to see whether it is 1K

12   written there?

13   A. Yes, I see there.

14   Q. That could be the mark of the category to which you have

15   been assigned?

16   A. I have no idea what that means.

17   Q. You knew, Mr. Kuljanin, that the first category of

18   prisoners was that category which was considered to be

19   the more difficult category?

20   A. How can this difficult category be prisoners who are

21   co-operative? I fail to see that.

22   Q. I cannot give you an answer to that question. We shall

23   have to ask some of the members of the commission.

24   A. I cannot give you an answer either.

25   MR. ACKERMAN: I think it would be helpful if the witness

Page 5591

1   could be reminded to wait for the translation before he

2   answers. It is starting to all run together. Even

3   though Ms. Residovic is moving slowly, the witness is

4   answering immediately rather than waiting for the

5   translation.

6   MS. RESIDOVIC: So we have the same warning as the one

7   I gave yesterday, so please be so kind as to wait for

8   the translation of my question and to answer me only

9   then.

10   A. Okay, yes.

11   Q. I should like to ask you, Mr. Kuljanin, also to take a

12   look at the top of the first page . There are two

13   signatures; is that correct?

14   A. Yes.

15   Q. Please look at the last page of the statement, also

16   there are two identical signatures; is that so?

17   A. Yes, it is.

18   Q. If I remind you in order to refresh your memory a bit,

19   can you, on the basis of these signatures, remember that

20   your interrogation was conducted by Mr. Sacir Pajic and

21   Mr. Nusret Secibovic?

22   A. I have no idea who interrogated me, nor did I know those

23   people, nor did I know them then.

24   Q. Thank you. This exhibit can be returned.

25   Mr. Kuljanin, after Rajko Dordic called you to come

Page 5592

1   down to Ljuta, members of the TO first ask that one of

2   you should collect the weapons and surrender them to TO

3   members; is that correct?

4   A. No.

5   Q. I did not understand.

6   A. No, that is not correct.

7   Q. Did you, when you came down, surrender those weapons?

8   A. No, I did not.

9   Q. You did not even hand over the rifle that you had taken

10   from the member of the Territorial Defence?

11   A. I had no rifle, so I had nothing to surrender.

12   Q. But before this court, you have said that your group had

13   disarmed a member of the TO and taken his rifle from

14   him?

15   A. Yes, I stated that he had been disarmed and a rifle had

16   been seized from him. In fact, I said it was taken by

17   the members of the other group.

18   Q. So if a third person were to say that on that occasion

19   you surrendered 24 pieces of automatic and other

20   weapons, that party according to your memory would not

21   be saying the truth?

22   A. Yes, you stated that there were 30 of us in the group,

23   and that

24   of us had surrendered the weapons and now

24   you enumerated a list of the people in the second group,

25   of which there were 15, I believe.

Page 5593

1   Q. So the mistake could be in the number of weapons

2   concerned?

3   A. I have no idea neither regarding the weapons or the

4   person who surrendered the rifle.

5   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, okay, I will not ask you about the weapons

6   any more, you have been asked enough about that subject.

7   You have known Mr. Rajko Dordic from before; is

8   that correct?

9   A. Very slightly.

10   Q. But you did know that he was working for the Territorial

11   Defence headquarters; is that correct?

12   A. No, I only knew that he was working somewhere in Konjic

13   and that --

14   Q. And that he resided in Konjic?

15   A. Yes.

16   Q. But you saw Mr. Rajko Dordic in April and May in Bradina?

17   A. Yes, I did when he came home.

18   Q. The battles in Bradina lasted until May 27th; is that

19   correct?

20   A. I do not know about the combat. I do not know how long

21   the attack lasted. I do not remember.

22   Q. The attack was still going on when you left Bradina; is

23   that correct?

24   A. Yes, the Muslim units were setting fire to houses and

25   killing civilians in the village called Suljina Strana.

Page 5594

1   Before they advanced to the centre we started to pull

2   out from the encirclement that we were in.

3   Q. And when you were taken to Konjic to the Drustveni Dom

4   to the social centre, Zilic ordered that all your things

5   and documents be seized; is that correct?

6   A. As far as I remember, it is.

7   Q. And everything was taken away from you except from the

8   things which you managed to hide?

9   A. Yes, that is correct.

10   Q. Documents, your identity card, your watch was taken away

11   from you?

12   A. Yes, my papers and some other documents, my ID -- I did

13   not have an ID.

14   Q. You have stated before that in Celebici, during the

15   first few weeks, you used to see soldiers with HBO

16   insignia and the military police HBO insignia as well as

17   with lilies insignia?

18   A. I do not recall having stated that.

19   Q. If this were contained in the statement which you gave

20   to the investigator then it would not be correct?

21   A. I have replied to questions regarding the statement

22   which I have signed many times and I do not wish to

23   comment upon what is contained there any more. I do not

24   subscribe to that statement.

25   Q. My learned colleague, Mr. Ackerman, has asked you in

Page 5595

1   connection with that particular statement whether the

2   investigator of the Prosecution had warned you at the

3   time that some of those people had been indicted and you

4   confirmed that you had?

5   A. I have not understood. What have I confirmed as

6   correct?

7   Q. That when making that statement, you had been warned

8   that Mr. Delalic, Mucic, Landzo and Delic had been

9   indicted and you confirmed that; is that correct?

10   A. What did I confirm?

11   Q. That you had been warned of that?

12   A. Oh yes.

13   Q. You gave that statement in October 1995; is that

14   correct?

15   A. I think so, I do not remember.

16   Q. Are you aware of the fact that these persons were

17   indicted only in March 1996?

18   A. I have no idea when.

19   Q. So you claim that the investigator of the Prosecution,

20   if he told you that, gave you false data?

21   A. I do not know. I do not care very much about their

22   indictments so I did not remember the dates which he

23   mentioned.

24   Q. So, Mr. Kuljanin, you were not interested at all whether

25   on the basis of your statement some people could be

Page 5596

1   indicted?

2   A. Not even today am I interested in these indictments.

3   Q. Let me ask you something in connection with your stay in

4   tunnel 9. Please tell me whether it is true that you

5   reach the door of tunnel 9 by a small assent?

6   A. I think that it is.

7   Q. Is it also true that after entering tunnel number 9, it

8   has a slight gradient sloping towards the end of the

9   tunnel?

10   A. Yes, it is.

11   Q. That would mean that the door of the tunnel are at sort

12   of the top of this decline or ascent of this entire

13   space?

14   A. Yes.

15   Q. From the door, the tunnel goes downward?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, is it true that in a space of about a metre

18   from the door of this tunnel, there was some kind of a

19   bucket or container with water or some vessels with

20   water in which you received your food?

21   A. I do not remember.

22   Q. Let me refresh your memory. Please pay attention. Is

23   it true that after this space there sat prisoners in

24   tunnel number 9?

25   A. Yes, they sat there, the prisoners sat there.

Page 5597

1   Q. As it was a narrow tunnel two people could not sit

2   facing each other, they had to sit one next to the other

3   in a row; is that correct?

4   A. Yes.

5   Q. As far as you remember, the first sitting next to this

6   space was Mirko Mrkajic called Bruba?

7   A. Yes, he came several days, I do not remember how many

8   days, after us.

9   Q. Next to him was sitting his son Velimir known as Vele;

10   is that correct?

11   A. I think so.

12   Q. And the third next to him was sitting Desimir Mrkajic

13   about whom you talked yesterday with my colleague

14   Ackerman; is that so?

15   A. Yes.

16   Q. And next to him Velibor Mrkajic was sitting?

17   A. Yes, you already mentioned Velibor.

18   Q. No, that was Velimir, Vele and this one is Velibor?

19   A. I think so.

20   Q. Then Brane Mrkajic?

21   A. Yes.

22   Q. Bradko Kuljanin was the next?

23   A. Yes.

24   Q. And in front of you was Nikola Mrkajic?

25   A. Yes.

Page 5598

1   Q. Then you yourself?

2   A. Yes.

3   Q. And then followed Andelko Kuljanin?

4   A. Yes.

5   Q. And so on. Let me not enumerate all the rest. So my

6   information is correct on the basis of what we have

7   heard so far from the witnesses about the exact sequence

8   of the people seated in the tunnel in the way in which

9   you have just now confirmed; is that correct?

10   A. Yes, it is.

11   Q. So you were the ninth person sitting in this row?

12   A. Yes.

13   Q. If perhaps in the course of the hitherto interrogation

14   you did say something different, that is because it is

15   hard to remember all the facts after the lapse of so

16   much time; is that correct?

17   A. Yes.

18   Q. Thank you very much. Let us now go back to the question

19   of your final departure from Konjic. I shall ask you

20   again whether criminal proceedings had been instituted

21   against you?

22   A. No.

23   Q. Do you know of having been abolished?

24   A. I have no idea.

25   Q. As you told us yesterday, you were neither liberated nor

Page 5599

1   exchanged, but you fled?

2   A. But why would I have to be pardoned or criminally

3   prosecuted? From whom did I need abolition or pardon,

4   why?

5   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, yesterday we discussed in depth this

6   situation. The process is such that I put the questions

7   and you answer my questions. It is not your business to

8   ask me questions. Thank you.

9   A. I was just answering your question.

10   Q. Thank you. Actually, on November 3rd 1994 or 1993,

11   I beg your pardon, yes 1993, of course, with a group of

12   prisoners, you overpowered a TO member, captured his

13   weapon, seized his weapon, and together with him,

14   reached Croatian territory, or rather territory under

15   the control of Croatian forces where you felt you were

16   quite safe?

17   A. We reached the territory halfway between Croat and

18   Muslim territory and then he went back home.

19   Q. But you had known this person?

20   A. I had not, I knew him as one of the guards in the

21   prison.

22   Q. He was Salko Bilanovic, is that not so?

23   A. I think his name was Salko, I do not know his surname.

24   Q. And you know he was killed later?

25   A. Let me make this clear. Salko came with us, as I had

Page 5600

1   already said, until we reached a territory that was

2   halfway between Croat and Muslim territory. Salko

3   treated us correctly in the prison, that is true. It is

4   also true that we did disarm him and seized his rifle,

5   but we spoke as normal people and we said goodbye

6   normally. Of course we did not dare give him back his

7   rifle and Salko left. What happened to him I learnt

8   only much later from other prisoners when they were

9   released from the Musala camp. As far as we were

10   concerned, Salko was released and treated quite

11   normally.

12   Q. Is it true that you said that a doctor had appeared and

13   carried out an examination?

14   A. That is true, I heard that from prisoners in the Musala

15   camp and they said that it was probably his heart or

16   something, that the doctors had established that he had

17   died from his heart attack or heart failure.

18   Q. But it is true that Salko Bilanovic, after your escape,

19   did not return to Konjic alive?

20   A. He did not return, but it is not true that we killed

21   him. I already told you why he did not return.

22   Q. Is it true, Mr. Kuljanin, that you and your group were

23   under suspicion of having killed this person; is that

24   true?

25   A. Yes, we were under suspicion by certain people who know

Page 5601

1   nothing about anything, and then the doctor came and the

2   commander of the camp came and said what had happened.

3   The commander knew him and I was close to him even

4   before the war. He told the other prisoners that we had

5   not killed him, that the truth is so and so, that it was

6   heart failure he had suffered from.

7   Q. So, Mr. Kuljanin, in a rather strange way, you were

8   suspected twice, once of having killed a TO member at

9   the village of Ljuta whom you had disarmed and captured

10   and then again when escaping that you had killed the

11   person who you had overpowered and disarmed, even though

12   that is not true.

13   A. That is not true, this is the first I hear from you that

14   I was a suspect. If I had been suspected, surely

15   criminal proceedings would have been conducted against

16   me in the Musala camp itself, as was the case with some

17   other people who were taken to trial even while I was at

18   the Musala camp.

19   Q. But you know that both Salko Bilanovic and Karadzic --

20   let me just find his name -- that these persons are

21   dead.

22   A. I heard of Bilanovic, for the other person that you

23   mentioned, I do not know whether you mentioned him first

24   or second, anyway in the village of Ljuta I had no idea

25   about him.

Page 5602

1   Q. Suko Karcic. So you have no idea about him? Very well

2   then, thank you. I have only a few more brief questions

3   to put to you. Mr. Kuljanin, you said that before the

4   war you were not a SDS member?

5   A. I was not. I was not a member of the SDS at the time.

6   Q. Fine, but as a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

7   former Yugoslavia, you know that people were highly

8   sensitive to certain insignia from the Second World War

9   which were reminiscent of the crimes committed during

10   that war?

11   A. Yes.

12   Q. You knew that it was very badly seen to carry insignia

13   with the letter U because they represented the Ustashas

14   and the special cockard hats that were a symbol of the

15   Chetniks, did you know that?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. Both these had committed very serious crimes during the

18   Second World War, had they not?

19   A. I did not participate in the Second World War, so I do

20   not know.

21   Q. And you did not study about it in history?

22   A. I was not a very good pupil. If I had studied history,

23   I probably would not have been in the camp.

24   Q. So because you did not study history and because you

25   were not familiar with this, frequently before the war

Page 5603

1   broke out, you wore various signs on your cap?

2   A. Never in my life, madam. I went to the camp and have

3   left the camp and never in my life did I put any kind of

4   signs on my clothes and I would like anyone to come and

5   tell me in my face that they had seen me wearing any

6   kind of signs of this kind. I have no reason to find

7   excuses. If I had worn a cockade, I would admit it

8   before this honourable court, but that, madam, is simply

9   not true.

10   Q. I am asking you, it is up to you to answer.

11   A. I have answered you.

12   Q. Thank you. That is why you were seen in cafes wearing a

13   pistol and also singing Chetnik songs?

14   A. Madam, you are misinformed 100 per cent. If I had sang

15   such songs, I would not conceal the fact. I would like

16   to have a drink and who drinks usually also since.

17   Q. But if you did sing such songs and carry such insignia?

18   A. Madam, I cannot say that. I cannot say that I have

19   never sang a song now and then, but I can say I never

20   sung such songs before the war or during the war, before

21   the camp or after the camp madam.

22   Q. But your behaviour, and even if you drank and sang

23   Chetnik songs, would provoke misunderstanding and cause

24   difficulties with representatives of other ethnic groups

25   and the police?

Page 5604

1   A. Never, never.

2   MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.

3   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I believe you.

4   A. Never, madam, did I wear any kind of insignia or signs

5   and it would appear from what you are saying that all

6   I did was sing, that I never did any work at all.

7   MS. RESIDOVIC: Your honours, my question -- my first

8   question was whether this provoked misunderstanding

9   amongst members of other ethnic groups and the police.

10   A. Never did I have any problems with my neighbours, with

11   members of other ethnic groups, or the police for that

12   sort of thing. I never had any difficulties with the

13   police on account of nationalism and I was very good,

14   I had very good relations with my neighbours from the

15   very first day. What happened later on we have all

16   seen.

17   MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Kuljanin. I have no further

18   questions.

19   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.

20   Cross-examined by MR. GREAVES

21   Q. Mr. Kuljanin, I am just going to be fairly short with you

22   I hope, because I think quite a lot of the ground has

23   already been covered. Can I ask you please to start off

24   and just tell us a little more about the military

25   service you did between 1987 and 1989. You were in the

Page 5605

1   military police. What rank did you end up with please?

2   A. I was a soldier, I had no rank.

3   Q. Apart from being in the military police, did you receive

4   ordinary infantry training, prior to going into the

5   police?

6   A. When I did my military service and when training like

7   any other soldier, the normal training that anybody was

8   given in the military service at the time.

9   Q. Basic training in how to be a soldier, how to be an

10   infantry man, before going on into the military police;

11   is that right?

12   A. All this was happening in the military police.

13   Q. You ceased to be in the military police in 1989.

14   Thereafter, did you remain fit and healthy until the

15   beginning of the war?

16   A. Yes.

17   Q. In 1992, that was just, what, three years after you had

18   completed your military service?

19   A. Yes.

20   Q. All that you had been taught and all you had learnt in

21   the military police, all that was still fresh in your

22   mind at the time, was it?

23   A. I do not know.

24   Q. Your evidence is that you took no part in any fighting

25   of any kind, nor were you recruited to any militia or

Page 5606

1   anything like that, despite the fact that you had recent

2   military service, is that it?

3   A. Yes, that is it, but I did my military service because

4   I had to, and I served in the police not because

5   I wanted to do it but because I had to do it; it was an

6   obligation.

7   Q. Did you carry out any military service after your escape

8   in 1994, Mr. Kuljanin?

9   A. No, not for a single day.

10   Q. I want to turn now to the circumstances in which you

11   made your statement to the Office of the Prosecution.

12   That was in October 1995, Mr. Kuljanin. You have been

13   asked about it, you recall the man who was interviewing

14   you was called Ole Hortemo; is that right?

15   A. Yes.

16   Q. Help us about this: how was it that you came to be

17   interviewed by the office of the Prosecution? How did

18   they get in touch with you?

19   A. I have no idea how they got in touch with me. We spoke

20   on the telephone, we made an appointment. At first

21   I did not know what it was about. When I got there,

22   they told me what it was about. I did not have enough

23   time because I had to rush back to work and that is how

24   we got in touch.

25   Q. What was your work at that time, Mr. Kuljanin, in October

Page 5607

1   1995?

2   A. I was working in a company as a machine operator.

3   Q. But you spent, what, two complete days with Mr. Hortemo?

4   A. Two days, yes, but a few minutes, that is the question.

5   Each day I could spend maybe so many minutes, a certain

6   limited amount of time anyway.

7   Q. And the rush that you have described to us was not

8   personal business, but you just had to get back to work,

9   was that it?

10   A. Yes, I had to go to work. Nobody else could work

11   instead of me. In that sense, it was private.

12   Q. Just help us about this. You have told us yesterday

13   that you recall having had a further visit from some

14   people after 20th and 21st October 1995. Do you

15   remember telling us about that yesterday?

16   A. Yes, there were some other visits but I was not very

17   keen about the whole thing. I had not intended to

18   appear in the Tribunal in this honourable court, so

19   I did not pay very close attention to the whole thing,

20   nor was I prepared to make any detailed statements.

21   Q. You say visits; there was more than one visit, was

22   there?

23   A. As far as I can remember, somebody came twice to put

24   questions to me.

25   Q. Was that somebody from the office of the Prosecution or

Page 5608

1   from some other body?

2   A. Probably from the Prosecution, as far as I can recall.

3   I do not know.

4   Q. Having answered some questions, did you put anything

5   down in writing and sign it?

6   A. Yes, I think that I did sign what I had stated.

7   MR. GREAVES: That being so, I would invite the Prosecution

8   to say whether they have any other statement from this

9   man that they have so far not disclosed concerning this

10   man's evidence.

11   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it now you are asking for that?

12   MR. TURONE: We can say, your Honour, that we have only one

13   statement which was the one which was disclosed

14   actually.

15   MR. GREAVES: Thank you. I am grateful to my learned friend

16   for that information. Mr. Kuljanin, let us move on

17   please if we may. I want to ask you now about the

18   incidents you described to us yesterday concerning the

19   war and your detention and your escape. That took a

20   period of your life of about two and a half years, would

21   that be about right?

22   A. Something like that.

23   Q. And in general terms, would you agree with this, that

24   those events were the most significant set of events in

25   your life?

Page 5609

1   A. Most significant? I did not want the war, I did not

2   want the camp, I did not want any of it. It happened.

3   What I experienced is what I had wanted least, so that

4   I do not consider it significant. It cost me my life

5   and my health. I do not see for whom that could be

6   considered significant.

7   Q. Perhaps another word might help you. The most memorable

8   incident of your life, Mr. Kuljanin; would you accept

9   that?

10   A. I do not remember too well and I want to forget

11   everything I experienced and I survived and I am turning

12   to other matters. I want to start another life. I am

13   no longer interested in Bosnia or anything related to

14   that, not even the camp in which I spent so much time.

15   Q. No doubt, Mr. Kuljanin, but just for the moment, for the

16   next

20   minutes or so you are going to be here answering

17   questions and I would like you to help me if you can

18   please. You understand how important it is, the

19   evidence that you are giving, do you?

20   A. It depends for whom.

21   Q. Let us just ask you about this. I want to ask you about

22   the incident where you claim to have been locked up in a

23   manhole, Mr. Kuljanin. Would you agree with this, that

24   that is one of the most serious incidents that occurred

25   to you during your detention?

Page 5610

1   A. It was serious, whether it was the most serious I do not

2   know. It is difficult to measure. There were various

3   incidents and terrible experiences.

4   Q. If your account is right, you and several other people

5   were close to death from asphyxiation, were you not,

6   Mr. Kuljanin?

7   A. No -- yes, I was close to death every day and also in

8   the manhole.

9   Q. Something of which you have a clear memory; is that

10   right?

11   A. I do.

12   Q. Something you are going to remember for the rest of your

13   life?

14   A. I do not know if I will remember it for the rest of my

15   life. It is only now that my memories have been

16   refreshed, since I have been visiting here with the

17   Prosecution and the court, otherwise I do not remember

18   too well and I want to forget it as soon as possible.

19   Q. You see, I suggest to you, Mr. Kuljanin, that it was so

20   serious an incident you could not possibly have

21   forgotten it, even if you were in a hurry or in a

22   dilemma about whether you would give evidence or not; is

23   that right, is it not?

24   A. I have not forgotten it completely, but I am doing my

25   best to get over it.

Page 5611

1   Q. You did not mention it in your statement when you were

2   trying your best to remember things for Mr. Hortemo, did

3   you?

4   A. Maybe I did not remember everything, maybe there are

5   many other things that I should have said but I did not.

6   Q. Let us go through a few of those things, Mr. Kuljanin.

7   The visit of the film crew that you described to us

8   yesterday. Another major incident during the course of

9   your detention, was it not?

10   A. Yes, I suppose so.

11   Q. Why did you not mention that in your statement when you

12   were speaking to Mr. Hortemo?

13   A. I have already said how little time I had with him and

14   I spent 18 months in the camp. How can I be expected to

15   tell him everything within half a hour? Is that

16   possible? That is not possible.

17   Q. For example, the two incidents you describe of stealing

18   food with Mr. Mucic; again not mentioned in your

19   statement, was it, Mr. Kuljanin?

20   A. Absolutely it was not mentioned but I lived through it

21   and I experienced it and participated in it.

22   Q. Tell us a little bit about that incident. Did Mr. Mucic

23   take you off in the vehicle on his own to deliver the

24   food wherever it was going?

25   A. Yes, he drove the van himself to his house, to the

Page 5612

1   destination where we unloaded the food which he provided

2   for his home.

3   Q. And he was on his own on both occasions, was he?

4   A. Yes, he drove the car, we went in that we had loaded.

5   Q. Bearing in mind your escape in 1994, why did you not

6   escape on that occasion if you only had Mr. Mucic to deal

7   with?

8   A. This was in the centre of the town, I escaped from the

9   frontline where it was much easier, much simpler. It

10   was impossible to escape in these other circumstances,

11   even though he was alone and there were four of us.

12   Q. Let us move on to another incident that you did not

13   mention in your statement, the incident where you saw

14   Mr. Mucic making up a list for transfer of prisoners and

15   the actual transfer of those prisoners. You did not

16   mention that in your statement, did you?

17   A. I did not mention it because I did not remember it.

18   Q. And the incident in which you described to us yesterday,

19   your meeting with Mr. Delalic and going to his home and

20   doing some work there; you did not mention that either,

21   did you?

22   A. I did not say I had met with Mr. Delalic, I said

23   something quite different regarding Mr. Delalic.

24   Q. You know the incident to which I am referring, do you

25   not, Mr. Kuljanin?

Page 5613

1   A. The incident that occurred in front of his house, yes.

2   I did not say that I had met Mr. Delalic, I never stated

3   that.

4   Q. I am sorry for having misled you and I apologise for

5   that, but you know which one we are talking about. You

6   did not put that in your statement, did you?

7   A. No, I did not. I have already given the reason why.

8   I had little time at my disposal and one needs much more

9   time to remember everything, and even now I did not

10   mention all the things that may have occurred to me

11   overnight and this morning, even.

12   Q. And your interrogation at the camp, again something you

13   did not mention in your statement, did you?

14   A. No, I did not mention it.

15   Q. The visit of the Red Cross, again something that you did

16   not mention in your statement, did you?

17   A. No, I did not mention it.

18   Q. In fact the only mention that you make concerning

19   Mr. Mucic in your statement was this, that he was the

20   commander for the first ten months in Celebici. Now

21   Mr. Kuljanin, you were not even --

22   A. I do not know for how many months, I just know that he

23   was.

24   Q. That is what you put in your statement, Mr. Kuljanin.

25   You were not even in Celebici for ten months, were you?

Page 5614

1   A. I beg your pardon? I did not understand that.

2   Q. It is a quite simple question, Mr. Kuljanin. You were

3   not in Celebici camp for ten months, were you? It was

4   only a matter of four months.

5   A. Yes, but he was in Musala too, he was in charge of

6   Musala too. I was in Musala.

7   Q. Nor do the Prosecution suggest, as I confirmed with

8   Mr. Turone yesterday, that he was the commander for more

9   than six months, Mr. Kuljanin. I suggest to you that the

10   only fact which you recorded in your statement

11   concerning Mr. Mucic was one that was wholly incorrect,

12   was it not?

13   A. What is incorrect?

14   Q. The one single statement that you made about Mr. Mucic in

15   your witness statement to Mr. Hortemo was one that you

16   got wrong, was it not?

17   A. I still do not understand what is not correct, what is

18   wrong?

19   Q. Mr. Mucic was not commander for ten months, that is what

20   you got wrong, Mr. Kuljanin, is it not?

21   A. I was about -- I do not know exactly how long I was in

22   the camp, but when I was transferred to Musala, Mr. Mucic

23   came there and he formed lists of people and he was

24   carrying a list, what kind of list it was I really do

25   not know.

Page 5615

1   Q. Thank you, Mr. Kuljanin. I am grateful to my learned

2   friend for just reminding me of one point. You say that

3   Mr. Mucic's house was in the centre of Konjic; is that

4   right?

5   A. Not in the centre, in the very centre, but it was in the

6   broader area of the town of Konjic. I was not so

7   specific, I do not have a map to tell you exactly where

8   his house was. Konjic was not such a big city, it was

9   all near, everything was near.

10   Q. How close to the centre of Konjic? Within a kilometre?

11   A. I cannot tell you exactly.

12   Q. Just remind us of the date when you were transferred to

13   Musala camp, please?

14   A. I just do not know the date, I am sorry, I do not

15   remember dates very well.

16   Q. Would you accept December 1992?

17   A. I think so, November/December roughly. I just cannot

18   remember.

19   MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Mr. Kuljanin.

20   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, a housekeeping matter, I do not

21   think anyone moved to introduce the OTP statement

22   yesterday. I provided the Registry with a copy of it

23   and I move to introduce the statement that this witness

24   gave to the Office of the Prosecutor for the limited

25   purpose of impeachment only.

Page 5616

1   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought it was introduced on behalf

2   of the Defence.

3   MR. MORAN: No, your Honour, the other two statements that he

4   gave were. Nobody ever got around to moving the

5   introduction of the OTP statement. That is what I am

6   doing now, again, just for the limited purpose of

7   impeachment.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which statement is that? Let me have a

9   look at it.

10   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I do not know if it has a number,

11   but it is the one with the OTP cover sheet on it, dated

12   20th and 21st October 1995. I believe the only two

13   statements that were provided to the court yesterday

14   were the records of his interrogation by the Army of the

15   Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, also the statement refers to two

17   attachments which I do not have, one of them is a

18   diagram of the way people were seated in the camp and

19   the other is a record of some physical examinations that

20   he says he attached and I do not have.

21   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly help us?

22   MR. TURONE: The Prosecution has no objection to show the

23   extent to which the witness has and has not been

24   impeached. Thank you.

25   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, you cannot directly put it

Page 5617

1   and admit it as such.

2   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we did yesterday and he admitted it

3   was his statement. I would be happy to do it again. It

4   is exhibit number ...

5   THE REGISTRAR: D8/3.

6   MR. MORAN: If the usher would take that to the witness and

7   he could identify his signature.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have it numbered appropriately.

9   THE REGISTRAR: It will be numbered D8/3.

10   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have just been handed one that

11   does apparently have the diagrams on it. It does have a

12   few other markings on it. Would the court like to

13   substitute that? It has a couple of diagrams on it, no

14   medical records. We can substitute that one.

15   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this one which the court has? The

16   one I have has no diagrams on it.

17   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I believe this one is more complete

18   than the one I was provided it.

19   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why do we have two different types?

20   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I do not know, I just got the one

21   out of my file box that had this witness's name on it.

22   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which of them is the OTP statement?

23   MR. MORAN: They are both the OTP statement, your Honour.

24   MR. TURONE: We have a complete copy, if your honours wish,

25   of the English statements with the attachment which were

Page 5618

1   drawn by the witness in front of the investigator and we

2   can provide that.

3   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we move to substitute that one and

4   let him identify the one that is in Mr. Turone's hand.

5   Mr. Kuljanin, if you just look at that piece of paper

6   that the usher is about set to hand you, is that your

7   signature on those documents?

8   MR. GREAVES: There is no translation coming through at the

9   present time.

10   A. Yes.

11   MR. MORAN: And that is a true and correct copy of the

12   statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in

13   October 1995?

14   A. I have already said in connection with this statement

15   that I did not make it exhaustive, I did not remember

16   all the facts when I made that statement. I have

17   repeated this several times. I do not mind, I can go on

18   repeating it.

19   MR. MORAN: No, sir, all we are trying to do is just to

20   guarantee the copy that you are identifying right now is

21   in fact a true and correct copy of whatever you did in

22   October 1995. We are just basically proving that the

23   document is authentic. Your Honour with that, I would

24   move to introduce for the limited purposes of

25   impeachment only.

Page 5619

1   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right. I think the Prosecution

2   wants it admitted.

3   THE REGISTRAR: This will be exhibit D8/3.

4   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you have any re-examination?

5   Re-examined by MR. TURONE

6   Q. Just a clarification coming out from the

7   cross-examination done by Mr. Ackerman yesterday.

8   Mr. Kuljanin, one of the Defence lawyers yesterday,

9   Mr. Ackerman, asked you some questions about your

10   knowledge of Mr. Landzo's first name. He showed you your

11   OTP statement, this one, where you referred to Mr. Landzo

12   with the first name of Senad. You said that in fact you

13   did not know for sure Mr. Landzo's first name, but you

14   said it might be Senad, so in order to clear up any

15   confusion over this matter, I would ask you to look

16   around in this courtroom and see in this courtroom

17   whether the person that you are referring to in your

18   evidence as Landzo is present in this room. Please look

19   around and see if you see Mr. -- the person you name as

20   Mr. Landzo in this room?

21   MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I actually object to that. There

22   is no way he could fail to make that identification. It

23   is of absolutely no relevance whatsoever. It is obvious

24   that there are certain persons sitting in the dock here,

25   I think it is totally inappropriate to make an

Page 5620

1   identification like that, therefore I object.

2   MR. TURONE: May I respond this as a question of

3   re-examination? It comes out from the cross-examination

4   of yesterday. By the way, in yesterday's transcript on

5   page 5541, Mr. Ackerman said exactly: "Your position

6   here today is that as far as you know, the person named

7   Landzo who did the things that you have described, was a

8   person named Senad Landzo; correct?

9   Answer: I repeat, I am not sure about the name,

10   the first name. I am sure about the surname and his

11   face and his physical appearance. That I am sure of."

12   So as your Honour said, quite often the

13   cross-examining party has to bear the consequences of

14   cross-examination. On the other hand, the objection of

15   Mr. Ackerman goes to weight, not admissibility. May

16   I please ask the witness to answer this question?

17   MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, this is a matter of general

18   importance, in my submission. This is a process known

19   in my jurisdiction, and I suspect those of others in the

20   common law system, as what is called a dock

21   identification. In the 1970s, as a result of a number

22   of cases involving identification evidence, the process

23   of dock identification came under scrutiny by the legal

24   system in the United Kingdom. As a result of that, Her

25   Majesty's Attorney General announced that because dock

Page 5621

1   identifications were so inherently and fundamentally

2   unreliable and dangerous, no Prosecutor would be

3   permitted from that day forward to carry out that

4   exercise in a court in the United Kingdom.

5   I respectfully submit that the point made by my learned

6   friend, Mr. Ackerman, is an entirely proper one. It is a

7   dangerous proceeding and one which should not be

8   permitted.

9   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see no danger in it at all. The

10   witness is very familiar with the person he is talking

11   about. If there is any ambiguity, he is entitled to

12   explain.

13   MR. TURONE: May I invite you to --

14   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us hear from the witness.

15   A. Yes, I had said that I was not sure and I still do not

16   know his real first name, but I know his surname and

17   I know the nickname that was used in the camp itself.

18   Yesterday, I said, I do not know whether you heard me,

19   that I could recognise him and that I know him well and

20   it is absolutely no difficulty for me to recognise him

21   among the accused and point a finger at him. As for his

22   name, I again say I am not sure. I think that was his

23   name, I did not know. I could have found out his real

24   name, but I was not interested. As for his physical

25   appearance and his description, I can easily show, point

Page 5622

1   a finger, to Landzo called Zenga, for the benefit of

2   your honours.

3   MR. TURONE: Please do that, point him out.

4   A. Mr. Landzo Zenga (indicates).

5   Q. Do you mean the person sitting on which?

6   A. Between the two policemen (indicates).

7   Q. For the record, may we -- let the record reflect that

8   the witness identified the accused. All right,

9   Mr. Kuljanin, just to make quite clear, is the person

10   that you pointed to now, is this person the one you have

11   been talking about yesterday as the person who beat you

12   and did many other things which you referred to as

13   Landzo, the Landzo who was in Celebici?

14   A. Absolutely so.

15   MR. TURONE: All right. Your Honour, my re-examination is

16   finished. Thank you very much.

17   (The witness withdrew)

18   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the end of this witness's

19   evidence. Thank you very much for your assistance. The

20   Trial Chamber will now rise and I think re-assemble at

21   12.10.

22   (11.40 am)

23   (A short break)

24   (12.15 pm)

25   MR. MORAN: Excuse me, your Honour, before the next witness

Page 5623

1   is called, I have a little housekeeping matter I would

2   like to bring to the court's attention. Back on

3   24th July or thereabouts, I received in my office, and

4   I think the rest of the Defence lawyers received by

5   telecopy a letter from Mr. Niemann setting out who

6   witnesses were going to be and the order in which they

7   were going to be called. This morning we received

8   another list from Mr. Niemann which, although it is

9   similar to the list of July 24th, there are some

10   significant differences in it, and the list we got this

11   morning is substantially longer. I have copies of those

12   for the Tribunal, if you would like to take a look at

13   them. The only thing I would request, I understand that

14   the Prosecution may have problems lining up witnesses

15   and making sure who is going to be where when they are

16   supposed to be there, just as I am sure those of us on

17   the Defence side will have the same problem, but when

18   you are given notice from the Prosecutor that says:

19   "Below please find the witnesses we expect to call

20   during the two week court session, please be advised

21   this proposal is based on our current assessment of

22   availability."

23   You prepare for that, you start beginning

24   preparing for these witnesses, and then when at

25   10 o'clock in the morning you are handed another list

Page 5624

1   that is somewhat different and in fact includes the

2   names of witnesses that the Trial Chamber has not

3   authorised the Prosecution to call, it affects our

4   preparation, and again, we understand that the

5   Prosecution have some problems, but your Honour, we

6   would like to just bring this to the court's attention

7   and ask, if we get something, let us stick to it.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, except my first

9   appeal to counsel on both sides, because this is a

10   matter which need not even come before the Trial

11   Chamber, these are things you could have thrashed out,

12   because you all have identical difficulties in getting

13   witnesses and arranging, prosecution or defence. All

14   you need is to have a joint view as to how this case has

15   to go on. I am sorry this is appearing to affect how

16   you would respond to whoever is called as a witness.

17   Obviously that has to be, but I think Mr. Niemann might

18   have some explanation to this, because it is a little

19   difficult on the Defence.

20   MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. It seems to me that it is

21   unfortunate that counsel could not discuss it with us

22   first. Difficulties like that can sometimes be resolved

23   rather than making it a matter for your honours to have

24   to deal with. If that is the way it is to be, that is

25   the way it is to be.

Page 5625

1   Your Honour, the situation is that we are

2   unfortunately in a very flexible and liquid situation

3   where it is not easy to -- fluid situation where it is

4   not easy for us to be as definite as one would be in a

5   national jurisdiction where we have powers of ensuring

6   that people can be brought before the court under pain

7   of penalty. Regrettably we are not in that position and

8   we do not have that luxury. People do decide at the

9   last moment either not to come forward or whatever.

10   Indeed, it reaches situations where people simply say

11   "I am not coming this week because I am attending some

12   function and too bad". When confronted with those sorts

13   of problems, it makes it very hard for us to apply rigid

14   procedures which would obviously make the Defence work

15   easier, and no doubt they will experience a similar

16   thing, but hopefully when they are confronted with a

17   similar problem they can raise it with us and we will

18   endeavour to try and co-operate with the problems that

19   they are going to face in the same way as we have faced

20   them.

21   Insofar as unauthorised lists are concerned,

22   unauthorised witnesses, that may be the case, your

23   Honour, but the situation is that we are giving the

24   Defence notice. If your honours decide they are not to

25   be called, obviously those witnesses will fall off the

Page 5626

1   list, but the Defence cannot be heard then to complain

2   that they were not given the list of witnesses that we

3   anticipated to call in anticipation of your Honour's

4   decision.

5   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually what is being complained about

6   here is perhaps the precipitation by which this change

7   was caused. If they are given some time they will know

8   how to adjust or discuss it with you. Whether it has

9   been authorised or not authorised, you know how to meet

10   the situation.

11   MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. That is the reason why we

12   gave the list, including unauthorised witnesses so they

13   are on notice. I wish I could say here now that the

14   list will not change. Sadly, that is not the luxury of

15   this jurisdiction, your Honour. It is a very fluid and

16   changeable situation and we unfortunately, all of us,

17   suffer from that.

18   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just so the record is clear,

19   although this Trial Chamber issued an order yesterday

20   having to do with some of the witnesses, the court will

21   recall that at least on behalf of Mr. Delic, we had no

22   objection to the prosecution calling whoever they wanted

23   to call. We had no objection to them adding to their

24   witness list.

25   MS. RESIDOVIC: Your honours, I should like to subscribe to

Page 5627

1   the argumentation stated by my learned colleague, but

2   I do have to emphasise that the list which we got this

3   morning contains 21 names, of which a significant number

4   differs from the list which we received seven days ago.

5   I believe that that, despite the problems, the

6   Prosecutor's side would have to have, for the Defence, a

7   number of witnesses, a list of the number of witnesses

8   which will be invited so that we can prepare ourselves

9   in advance, because on the basis of the list that we

10   received on 24th July, we prepared ourselves

11   unnecessarily for some of them.

12   Also, there are nine persons on the list which we

13   received this morning which were never on the

14   Prosecutor's list, and on the basis of the decision of

15   yesterday, which we received yesterday, it has not been

16   yet decided whether they will feature on the list at

17   all. Now we do not know whether the court will at all

18   admit these people being summoned as witnesses, but we

19   have to exert maximum efforts on our side to prepare

20   ourselves for the witnesses so that we have to know,

21   I comprehend the problems which occurred in the month of

22   May, but four months after this time, I believe that the

23   court should ask the Prosecution side to give us a total

24   list, because the Defence, in view of the needs of its

25   investigators in the field and in view of its necessary

Page 5628

1   preparations, should have to be informed on time. Thank

2   you.

3   MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I hate to continue this

4   discussion, but I do want to rise to say that

5   I subscribe to everything Mr. Niemann has told you in

6   terms of the problems they are having and agree that we

7   are probably going to have the same kinds of problems.

8   I suppose that if anything, what we are all trying to

9   say to the court and probably could have been said just

10   as easily to Mr. Niemann directly, is that the fear that

11   we have is that all of a sudden a witness is going to

12   pop into the courtroom without us having adequate notice

13   and time to prepare cross-examination. I would think

14   that at least 48 hours would be a reasonable time to

15   have notice and perhaps even more than that, depending

16   upon whether it is a witness we have known about for a

17   long time or not. I think that is the concern that is

18   being expressed. I do not think it is a technical

19   matter about lists and that sort of thing.

20   MR. OLUJIC: Your honours, I fully subscribe to what my

21   distinguished and learned colleagues have just said, but

22   perhaps I should also like to draw the attention of the

23   distinguished prosecution to the fact that in May and

24   June, during this process, the prosecution should

25   know -- we are in the fifth or sixth month of this

Page 5629

1   process and the prosecution should know what its

2   complete list should be. We want to have a complete

3   list. We are completely aware that we have a lot of

4   work to do and that we will have a lot of work to do in

5   connection with some witnesses which will perhaps not be

6   heard in this court in view of all the objective

7   circumstances which my learned colleague Niemann has

8   already mentioned, but we want to have a systematic

9   preparation of our Defence possible, so I should like to

10   appeal on our distinguished colleagues on the opposite

11   side to provide us with a complete list, with the risk

12   being involved that perhaps not all those witnesses will

13   also be present at this court.

14   In that case, we shall be able to proceed in a

15   normal way without this nervousness. Thank you.

16   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. You now see that

17   counsel can start from now to talk about whether a whole

18   list can be given to you or the period within which a

19   change could be made be communicated to you so that

20   things will be much easier for both sides.

21   Might I just make a short announcement for some

22   reasons of confidence? This Trial Chamber will sit at

23   2.30 pm tomorrow, after today's sitting, so we will not

24   have a morning sitting. That might give some

25   opportunity to discuss a few things

Page 5620

1   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I want to thank you very much for

2   that extra time.

3   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Could we have

4   your next witness.

5   MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Wolfgang

6   Navrat.

7   WOLFGANG NAVRAT (sworn)

8   Interpreter, sworn

9   Examined by MR. NIEMANN

10   Q. Mr. Navrat, would you please state your full name?

11   A. Wolfgang Navrat.

12   Q. Perhaps you might just leave that turned on, I think,

13   Mr. Navrat. What is your date of birth?

14   A. 6th November 1960.

15   Q. What is your country of citizenship?

16   A. I am an Austrian citizen.

17   Q. What is your occupation?

18   A. I am a senior detective with the Vienna police

19   department.

20   Q. Can you describe the position that you occupy with the

21   Vienna police department?

22   A. At present I am in charge of

25   officers who work in the

23   area of national security.

24   Q. What position did you hold in March 1996?

25   A. I was in charge of 24 officers who were involved -- not

Page 5631

1   only national security but also in the protection of

2   individuals and of property.

3   Q. In what year did you first obtain that position that you

4   held in March 1996?

5   A. On 1st May 1995.

6   Q. You have mentioned briefly the position that you had in

7   the Vienna police. Can you tell us what is involved in

8   terms of the investigation work that you traditionally

9   were engaged in, especially in March 1996?

10   A. I myself basically do not carry out any investigations

11   any longer. I am in charge of the officers, in terms of

12   supervising their work.

13   Q. Mr. Navrat, have you had occasion to give evidence in

14   court before in relation to your duties as a police

15   officer?

16   A. Once I testified as a witness before a Vienna court.

17   Q. Mr. Navrat, I would now like to take you back, if I may,

18   to March 1996 in relation to your involvement in the

19   matters pertaining to this case. Can you tell the court

20   what your role in the investigation relevant to these

21   proceedings were, and how you first became involved in

22   the matter?

23   A. On 18th March 1996, I became acquainted for the first

24   time with this case, and on that day, I was to carry out

25   a search at the INDA-Bau company.

Page 5632

1   Q. Who informed you that you had to carry out this search?

2   A. That was Vic Schilt, who is in charge of the department

3   of my officer Gschwendt, those two gentleman also being

4   involved in the case.

5   Q. Were you performing other duties at the start of that

6   day, 18th March 1996?

7   A. I take it that in the course of the morning I was

8   involved in other activities.

9   Q. What instructions were you given in relation to this

10   matter?

11   A. I was briefly informed about the case. Allegedly there

12   was a certain Mr. Delalic who had been arrested in Munich

13   and that was why in Vienna the search had to be moved

14   up. I happened to be available and that is why I was

15   given this assignment.

16   Q. In addition to being given instructions about the

17   matter, were you provided with any form of

18   documentation?

19   A. With a view to carrying out this search, I was provided

20   with a search warrant and a prefilled document, a search

21   record that is required under Austrian law for searches

22   of this kind.

23   Q. When you say prefilled, what do you mean by that?

24   A. It had been filled out in part, and certain entries had

25   been typed in there; in other words the reference number

Page 5633

1   of the search warrant, the address of the INDA-Bau

2   company was on there, the name of the individual

3   involved.

4   Q. Turning back to the search warrant if I may, did you

5   happen to notice whether or not this warrant had been

6   signed when it was handed to you?

7   A. I assume that the search warrant bore the name of

8   Dr Seda as the warrant was from the Vienna court.

9   Q. But at this stage you cannot recall precisely whether or

10   not you observed that.

11   A. I merely assume that, because I take it that Dr Seda was

12   in charge of this matter.

13   Q. When you received this search warrant, what did you do

14   with it?

15   A. I read it, had a look at the grounds for the search, and

16   it was planned that two officers would be carrying out

17   this search together with me.

18   Q. I will ask you to look at the document you are now

19   shown. For the assistance of the Defence, your honours,

20   this is a document that they have had marked for

21   identification D3 774, which I think is also an annexure

22   to a motion that is indeed the search warrant of

23   15th March 1996. Might the witness be shown the

24   document, and perhaps Mr. Usher, you would just pass it

25   to the Defence so they can look at it briefly before it

Page 5634

1   is given to the witness. Thank you. (Handed). There

2   are copies of this in the English language which might

3   also be shown to the Defence, too. Might it be marked

4   for identification with the next prosecution exhibit

5   number? Might the English version of the document be

6   marked with the same prosecution number, but be given

7   the letter A, to indicate the English version?

8   THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked as number 163, and the

9   English translation 163A.

10   MR. NIEMANN: I am grateful to the Registrar.

11   Mr. Navrat, would you please examine this document

12   fully? Once you have fully examined it let me know and

13   I will ask you some questions about it if I may.

14   (Pause).

15   A. I have had a look at the document.

16   Q. What is the document?

17   A. This is a search warrant against Zdravko Mucic.

18   Q. Do you recognise this document?

19   A. This is not the document that I received in respect of

20   the INDA-Bau company.

21   Q. Perhaps I might have another document, and I apologise

22   to your honours. Perhaps you might have a look at this

23   document for me, please. I am sorry about that, your

24   honours. (Handed). There is also an English

25   translation of that document. (Handed).

Page 5635

1   Would you have a look at that document for me,

2   please?

3   A. This is the search warrant which I was given in

4   connection with the search in question.

5   Q. When you were given that search warrant, did this

6   accompany you to the premises that are referred to in

7   the warrant?

8   A. That is right.

9   MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, your Honour. Might it be given

10   the next prosecution number in order? There is an

11   English version of it if that could be marked with the

12   letter A.

13   THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as number 164.

14   MR. NIEMANN: I am grateful to the Registrar. Mr. Navrat,

15   when you received this document, you went to the

16   premises, did you not, that are referred to there, in

17   Exhibit 164?

18   A. I did not go directly to that locality; rather I went to

19   the 16th District Police Station in Vienna, and I took

20   along two officers, they are the two officers who were

21   to carry out the search together with me.

22   Q. These two officers which you collected at the

23   16th District Police Station, had they been previously

24   involved in this matter prior to that time when you went

25   there to collect them?

Page 5636

1   A. No.

2   Q. Did you then proceed to brief them on what it was that

3   you were about to do?

4   A. I told them as much as I knew, and there upon we went to

5   the company at the address indicated.

6   Q. Who was the senior police officer in charge of this

7   group of three, when you went to the premises?

8   A. I was the one in charge of this search.

9   Q. Who was responsible for determining what would be

10   gathered or collected at the premises and searched for?

11   A. That was my task.

12   Q. In order to determine what it was that you were going to

13   search for, and if necessary seize at the premises, what

14   did you rely on in order to determine this?

15   A. I worked on the basis of the search warrant. Where

16   there is a reference to documents about war crimes and

17   Bosnia-Herzegovina, in particular video recordings about

18   the torture of prisoners.

19   Q. I think you are actually reading from Exhibit 164 at the

20   moment, are you?

21   A. That is right, yes.

22   Q. When you arrived at the INDA-Bau premises, was the

23   premises occupied by anyone, or was there nobody there?

24   A. There were two people present at the INDA-Bau premises.

25   Q. Did you know who these people were?

Page 5637

1   A. In the course of the search we found out that there was

2   a Mr. Kosanovic and then there was a girl there whose

3   name was Delalic.

4   Q. Were these persons present at the premises of INDA-Bau

5   throughout the whole period that you carried out your

6   search?

7   A. Both of these persons were there throughout the search

8   and were involved in it, so to speak.

9   Q. Can you describe, for the benefit of their honours, the

10   approximate layout of the INDA-Bau premises that you

11   went into?

12   A. With regard to the company premises there was a small

13   entrance hall. Then there were two larger rooms, two

14   toilets, and a tiny room that was apparently used as a

15   kitchen.

16   Q. In what rooms of the premises did you primarily conduct

17   your search?

18   A. Basically all of the rooms were searched, but the main

19   focus, for various reasons, was on the largest room on

20   the INDA-Bau company's premises. That room gave on to

21   the street.

22   Q. What was it that was in this room that attracted your

23   attention such as to cause you to concentrate your

24   search in this room?

25   A. In that room, amongst other things there was a TV set,

Page 5638

1   and there were video tapes there, and there were

2   documents in that room as well, which were subsequently

3   seized on a temporary basis.

4   Q. Apart from the video and television which you have

5   described, what other furniture was in this room, if you

6   can recall?

7   A. Apparently it was meant to give people a possibility to

8   sit down, there was also an office there and then the TV

9   set was on a piece of furniture and then along one of

10   the walls there was a set of shelves, a piece of

11   furniture there as well.

12   Q. You mentioned the fact that you saw some videos that

13   attracted your attention in this room. Are you able to

14   recall where it was approximately in the room where you

15   found these videos?

16   A. Some of the video tapes were near the TV, and there were

17   other video tapes that were to the left of the TV, and

18   the piece of furniture there, as far as I can recall.

19   Q. Can you tell their honours what observations you made in

20   relation to these video tapes in terms of identifying

21   them?

22   A. Now, the fellow officers and myself put one of the video

23   tapes into the VCR that was there in the room and had a

24   brief look at it soldiers could be seen on that video

25   tape.

Page 5639

1   Q. As a result of what you saw what did you then do?

2   A. Thereafter, various video tapes were seized on a

3   temporary basis and were placed in a cardboard box.

4   Q. You mention the words "temporary basis". What do you

5   mean by that?

6   A. In Austria items are seized on a temporary basis; that

7   is to say they are considered to be on a temporary basis

8   until the judge or the court rules.

9   Q. Perhaps you might elaborate just a little for us on

10   that. When you say "the judge rules", which judge are

11   you referring to?

12   A. Items are seized on a temporary basis, and subsequently

13   there is an analysis carried out at the police station

14   and different matters that are not relevant, or items

15   that are not relevant to the court, are given back to

16   the individuals concerned. The court receives only the

17   items that it feels are relevant to the case.

18   Q. Is there any order made by the court in relation to

19   items that the police do not consider relevant?

20   A. The court is kept informed, and an official note or a

21   transfer document, the non-relevant items are mentioned,

22   that is to say the items that are given back to the

23   individual, that is to say one should find a reference

24   to such items in the said document.

25   Q. Going back if I may to the videos that you examined and

Page 5640

1   seized at the INDA-Bau premises, how many of these

2   videos did you seize?

3   A. According to the record, 51 video tapes.

4   Q. These 51 that you referred to, who decided that they

5   should be taken back to the police station?

6   A. I decided that.

7   Q. At that moment that you seized them, did you mark them

8   or in any way place any form of police identification on

9   the videos that you had received?

10   A. I did not put any markings or identification numbers on

11   them. That was done subsequently at the police station

12   by the relevant department.

13   Q. When you were in the INDA-Bau premises and you seized

14   these videos, where did you put them the moment you

15   seized them?

16   A. The video tapes were placed in a cardboard box.

17   Q. Thank you. I think that you mentioned earlier in your

18   evidence that in addition to the search warrant that you

19   had, you also had in your possession when you went to

20   these premises a partially completed document; is that

21   right?

22   A. Yes, that is right. That is the search record.

23   Q. In relation to this document, did you do anything when

24   you were at the INDA-Bau premises?

25   A. The document was filled in, I did that, that is to say

Page 5641

1   the service numbers of the officers involved were

2   indicated, the names of those persons present on the

3   INDA-Bau premises were entered as witnesses, and the

4   items which I seized were indicated on that, and then

5   that document bore the signatures of the persons present

6   at the search.

7   MR. NIEMANN: I would like you to look, if you would for me

8   please, at the document you are now shown. For the

9   assistance of the Defence, your honours, this is the

10   Niederschrift document which they themselves have had

11   marked for identification D341. There is also another

12   document which has been described as D25/1. It is both

13   in English and in German, as I understand it, your

14   Honour. Perhaps once that is marked -- I ask that the

15   document I have given to be marked with the next

16   prosecution number, and the English version be given the

17   letter A.

18   THE REGISTRAR: This will be marked as number 165 and the

19   English translation 165A.

20   MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps, Mr. Usher, you would be so kind to show

21   it to the Defence before you give it to the witness.

22   (Handed). Thank you, Mr. Usher. If you could give that

23   to Mr. Navrat and perhaps you might retrieve the

24   documents that are presently in front of him, in case he

25   be confused with those.

Page 5642

1   Mr. Navrat, please look at the document you have

2   now been handed. Tell me, do you recognise that

3   document.

4   A. This is the document that --

5   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is convenient for us to stop

6   here and go for lunch so that you can have a freer go at

7   it.

8   MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Navrat, I will ask you to examine that for

9   me and I will ask you some questions after the

10   adjournment.

11   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Trial Chamber will now rise and

12   re-assemble at 2.30 pm.

13   (1.00 pm)

14   (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

Page 5643

1   (2.30 pm)

2   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Two of you are starting.

3   MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, there is a matter I would like to

4   raise, a matter before my learned friend resumes his

5   examination-in-chief, with your Honour's indulgence.

6   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can hear you.

7   MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, some weeks ago, the Prosecution

8   revealed during the course of some discussions in court

9   that the witness, Sabina Manke, had been part of the

10   process of transporting documents from Vienna to

11   The Hague. Shortly after that, your honours will recall

12   that she came into the public gallery whilst Officer

13   Moerbaur was giving evidence, and that was a matter that

14   I raised with the Tribunal and she knew immediately that

15   she should not be in the public gallery, and left.

16   Having made that complaint, that should have been

17   sufficient reminder to the Prosecution to exercise

18   proper control over its witnesses acting in a proper

19   manner. This lunchtime, I observed that Sabina Manke

20   came back from lunch deep in conversation with this

21   witness, who is, of course, in the middle of giving his

22   evidence. It may well be that they were discussing

23   matters that were wholly innocuous, however it gives the

24   appearance of impropriety that someone who is both

25   employed by the Prosecution's office and who is, and

Page 5644

1   remains, a potential witness in this case should be

2   speaking to this witness whilst he is giving his

3   evidence.

4   I would simply ask this, that the Prosecution

5   exercise proper control over their witnesses to ensure

6   that there is, at the very least, no appearance of

7   impropriety in the way in which their witnesses behave.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on.

9   MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I know nothing of the matter and

10   I will make some enquiries.

11   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on with your witness.

12   MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Navrat, just before

13   the luncheon adjournment I had shown you a document

14   which I think you still have before you; is that right?

15   A. Yes, the document is right here on the table.

16   Q. And I think that I had just begun to ask you some

17   questions about that document, and I would ask if you

18   can tell me, do you recognise the document?

19   A. Yes, I do recognise the document.

20   Q. What is it?

21   A. This is the record of the search, and on the rear side

22   you can see the list of the items seized.

23   Q. Perhaps you might just quickly read for us the items

24   there that you are referring to, if you would.

25   A. The list of items provisionally confiscated, 51 video

Page 5645

1   tapes, two folders with newspaper articles, two folders

2   relating to Mucic and 8 folders relating to Delalic.

3   Q. That list you have just read out, in whose writing is

4   that?

5   A. That is my handwriting.

6   Q. Does your handwriting appear in any other place on this

7   particular document?

8   A. On the front side of the sheet.

9   Q. Can you just tell us briefly what is your handwriting?

10   A. First page here, the service numbers of the officers

11   involved in the search were written down there by me.

12   Then the names of the witnesses present were written

13   down by me, none other than myself. And on the back

14   side, the list of items provisionally seized.

15   MR. NIEMANN: That you have just referred to. I tender that,

16   your Honour.

17   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It already has a number.

18   MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I understand, your Honour, it is 165.

19   There is an English translation, 165A.

20   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is an exhibit. It is admitted as an

21   exhibit.

22   MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases. Just in relation to

23   that document that has now been admitted as 165,

24   Mr. Navrat, there is a date that appears on the top of

25   that document which has been typewritten, after the word

Page 5646

1   "Vienna", three lines from the top of the document. Do

2   you see that date?

3   A. Yes, I do see the date.

4   Q. What date does that represent?

5   A. That is 19th March 1996.

6   Q. What is it put there for? What is the purpose of

7   putting that date there?

8   A. That was meant to be the date on which the search took

9   place.

10   Q. Just to assist us again, the date shown there is

11   19th March. What date did the search take place?

12   A. The search took place on 18th March 1996.

13   Q. So far as you are concerned, does that appear to be an

14   error?

15   A. Yes, apparently an error was made, as it had been

16   planned that the search would take place the following

17   day, but the search had to be moved up.

18   Q. Thank you. Mr. Navrat, apart from the videos that you

19   referred to previously in your evidence, what other

20   materials were seized at the INDA-Bau premises on

21   18th March 1996?

22   A. Alongside the video tapes altogether 12 folders were

23   seized containing a fairly large number of documents.

24   Q. Can you describe the way that you -- withdraw that, your

25   Honour.

Page 5647

1   Can you describe how you found these documents,

2   where you found them?

3   A. These documents were in these folders and these folders

4   were in the large room that gives on the street in the

5   INDA-Bau premises.

6   Q. Were the documents contained inside the folders when you

7   seized them?

8   A. Yes, that is right.

9   Q. I think you said that the list that appeared on the back

10   of Exhibit 165 was the material that was seized. Does

11   that list there refer to the folders that you have just

12   referred to?

13   A. These documents were in these folders or binders

14   referred to in the list of items seized.

15   Q. And the eight plus two plus two, does that represent the

16   twelve folders?

17   A. Yes, it does.

18   Q. Who sorted them into those categories?

19   A. I did.

20   MR. NIEMANN: Would you look now please at the folders that

21   I now show you? Perhaps I might explain, your Honour,

22   because I apprehend the Defence may not have copies of

23   these, that this is merely to establish the chain of the

24   evidence. We are not seeking to tender them for their

25   contents or any other reason other than just establish

Page 5648

1   the chain, but perhaps the Defence might have a look at

2   them before they are shown to the witness. Perhaps they

3   may be given just one composite -- it may be easier to

4   give them one composite exhibit number rather than

5   individually number them.

6   Your honours may recall that in the evidence of

7   Mr. Moerbaur, he referred to folders from which documents

8   were taken. These are those very folders. We are not

9   interested in what is in them for the purposes of these

10   proceedings, we are merely producing them to show that

11   these were the folders from which the exhibits were

12   taken that Mr. Moerbaur referred to.

13   JUDGE JAN: Before you ask that, please ask him whether he

14   put some mark of identification in his own handwriting

15   on these folders, to make sure these are the folders

16   actually recovered from the larger room.

17   MR. NIEMANN: I have to do that through two witnesses, your

18   Honour.

19   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your honours, it appears there have been

20   some stickers added to these documents which may or may

21   not be identifiable. We do not know where the stickers

22   came from. Yellow tags like this, labels.

23   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They were already there? Perhaps he

24   will be able to tell us.

25   JUDGE JAN: Perhaps Mr. Niemann will tell us who placed the

Page 5649

1   stickers. (Handed).

2   MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Navrat, would you please look at these

3   documents that have just been shown to you, go through

4   them one by one, and I will ask you some questions about

5   them. You do not need to open them at this stage, if

6   you can tell me what they are just by looking at the

7   outside. Could you tell me what they are? Do you

8   recognise what those documents are?

9   A. I take it that these twelve folders are those that

10   I provisionally seized.

11   Q. In order to satisfy yourself that they are the documents

12   that you seized, would you care to inspect them in

13   greater detail? You may look inside if that assists

14   you.

15   A. I think that it might be helpful for me to have a closer

16   look -- if I could have a closer look, that might help.

17   Q. Please have a closer look. While you are doing that, if

18   it is at all possible to do both the tasks together,

19   could you attempt to sort them in the same order as you

20   have set them out in the record of the search document,

21   the Niederschrift, Exhibit 136, which I think is before

22   you -- 165, sorry. (Pause). Now that you have had a

23   chance to look at them, do you recognise those

24   documents, Mr. Navrat?

25   A. Yes, I do recognise them. I have striven to break them

Page 5650

1   down according to what I put in the search record.

2   Q. I think you have set them out in three separate piles on

3   the desk, is that right, in front of you?

4   A. Yes, that is right.

5   Q. I take it -- is the large pile the one relating to the

6   eight?

7   A. Yes, that is right.

8   Q. Which one relates to the two Mucic documents? Can you

9   just point to it with your finger?

10   A. These two to my right (indicates).

11   Q. And the other two documents -- and the other two, are

12   these two which I referred to as containing newspaper

13   articles (indicates). Mr. Navrat, do you see on those

14   folders that you have been looking at stickers, both

15   yellow and white stickers?

16   A. Yes, I do see them.

17   Q. Dealing first with the yellow stickers, did you put

18   those yellow stickers on those documents?

19   A. No.

20   Q. Do you know who did?

21   A. No, I do not.

22   Q. Do you see also on each of the documents white stickers?

23   A. Yes.

24   Q. Did you put those white stickers on the documents?

25   A. No.

Page 5651

1   Q. Do you know who did?

2   A. No, I cannot say.

3   Q. When you seized those folders at the premises of

4   INDA-Bau, what did you then do with them?

5   A. I put these folders in a plastic bag and we put all the

6   seized items together, that is to say I took these and

7   the video tapes to the police station.

8   Q. When you say police station, which police station is

9   that?

10   A. That is my department, that is in Vienna, in the

11   1st district, Schotenring 729, 3rd floor.

12   Q. Where did you go in the building on the 3rd floor?

13   A. In the department concerned I believe it is room 326.

14   Q. When you went into room 326, what did you do then?

15   A. I handed over the box with the videos and the bag with

16   the folders. I put those on Mr. Panzer's desk and I told

17   him I was done with the search and then he took over

18   these items for further processing.

19   Q. That is Mr. Panzer, is it?

20   A. Yes, that was Mr. Panzer.

21   Q. What position does Mr. Panzer hold in the Vienna police?

22   A. He is a team leader in that department, or shall we say

23   of the group, dealing with operations relating to the

24   former Yugoslavia.

25   Q. Do you know whether or not he was involved in this

Page 5652

1   particular investigation?

2   A. He was involved in it, yes.

3   Q. At the time that you handed these folders that are in

4   front of you to Mr. Panzer, was there anyone else in the

5   room at the time that you can remember?

6   A. I cannot really remember. Perhaps Mr. Moerbaur was

7   really present at that time.

8   Q. The room that you went into where you handed these

9   folders to Mr. Panzer, was that his room where he

10   ordinarily worked?

11   A. That was the room where that team worked.

12   Q. When you say that team, do you know who the members of

13   that team were, or some of the members perhaps?

14   A. I know all the team members, yes.

15   Q. Can you name them, the team members, or at least some of

16   them?

17   A. Mr. Panzer, Mr. Moerbaur, Mr. Bycek, Mr. Grensch.

18   Q. Did these gentlemen ordinarily work in this room, all

19   these gentlemen ordinarily worked in this room?

20   A. That is right, yes, they do.

21   Q. I wonder if you might do something for me. I will hand

22   to you some yellow stickers and a pen. I was wondering

23   if you would be kind enough to mark the newspaper items

24   with the letter N, two folders with the letter N for the

25   newspapers, and put the sticker on the folder. In

Page 5653

1   relation to the folders that you say relate to Mr. Mucic,

2   would you put the letter M on those? In relation to the

3   folders that you classified as relating to Mr. Delalic,

4   would you please put a sticker with a letter D on them,

5   please. (Pause).

6   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I would like to object and

7   perhaps my learned friend can clarify what the point of

8   all this is, putting these yellow stickers on at this

9   time, what the purpose of all this is.

10   MR. NIEMANN: I am happy to explain, your Honour. Your

11   Honour, as I say, the Prosecution has been put to strict

12   proof on these documents in terms of the chain, and

13   these folders contained the original documents that were

14   referred to in the evidence of Mr. Moerbaur and are

15   indeed the folders that Mr. Moerbaur referred to when he

16   spoke of taking documents from the folders. The folders

17   were classified by this witness at the time that he

18   searched the premises and he classified them into three

19   different categories, the first category being newspaper

20   articles, the second being documents that he classified

21   as relating to Mr. Mucic, and documents that he

22   classified as relating to Mr. Delalic. There is nothing

23   on the covers of these documents to reflect the

24   classification that this witness carried out at the time

25   of the search. The purpose of putting the stickers with

Page 5654

1   the letters N and M on the outside of the folders is so

2   it can be ascertained which folders he had classified

3   according to the classification that appears in the

4   record of the search which has been tendered in these

5   proceedings.

6   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I want to make sure I have

7   understood my learned friend correctly. Is it his

8   contention that for the first time this witness is being

9   asked to put his mark on these twelve folders? I want

10   to make sure I have understood that correctly.

11   MR. NIEMANN: Yes, the first time he has put his mark on

12   them. It is the first time he has marked them according

13   to the classification. He is reconstructing the

14   classification that he carried out on the day of the

15   search.

16   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What you have just explained is your

17   explanation and not what you have from his evidence.

18   All he did here was to have separated those documents in

19   the order in which he thought he moved them, but this

20   question of identifying them with these stickers are

21   your own.

22   MR. NIEMANN: That is the next witness, your Honour. It is a

23   chain.

24   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is you who suggested the stickers,

25   because he had not identified material for any of those

Page 5655

1   things.

2   MR. NIEMANN: The witness from his evidence was able to

3   identify the folders, indeed. He said yes, he

4   recognised these as the folders that he seized. The

5   only thing we are doing by this exercise is merely

6   reorganising the folders according to the classification

7   that the witness applied when he drew up his record of

8   search. That is all that is being done.

9   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is your doing. You are not the

10   one giving evidence.

11   MR. NIEMANN: I am asking the witness to do it, your Honour.

12   JUDGE JAN: These are common folders easily available. He

13   has not put any mark of identification when he sees

14   them. What the evidence comes to is he sees folders of

15   this type from INDA-Bau, nothing more.

16   MR. NIEMANN: And he classifies them.

17   JUDGE JAN: He does classify them, but they are common

18   folders.

19   MR. NIEMANN: Maybe so, your Honour, but the witness was

20   asked to look at them and tell me whether he recognised

21   them, and he did.

22   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But similar folders to this could

23   present the same thing.

24   MR. NIEMANN: Forgeries could, your Honour.

25   JUDGE JAN: Not forgeries, folders like that.

Page 5656

1   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He could still say the same thing.

2   MR. NIEMANN: He could tell lies if he did not recognise

3   them.

4   JUDGE JAN: Why should he tell lies? Look at his answer

5   that he gave. "I take it that these are the folders

6   which I recovered".

7   MR. NIEMANN: That is why I asked him to have a closer look

8   and at the contents.

9   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought it was even too fast for him

10   within such a short space of time to be able to identify

11   all these folders and the documents in them. If he had

12   seen them some few hours before now, one might suggest

13   he knew what he was coming to see.

14   JUDGE JAN: You should pay attention to the words he used.

15   "I take it these are the folders I recovered". Carry

16   on.

17   MR. NIEMANN: Your honours, these documents are not designed

18   to prove anything other than the chain of the evidence.

19   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You should have stopped there.

20   MR. NIEMANN: That is all I sought to do.

21   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is sufficient he said he collected

22   these documents, these are the type of documents which

23   he collected. How can he go forward to identify them

24   without examining the documents which he puts into those

25   folders? I find that fairly difficult to accept.

Page 5657

1   MR. NIEMANN: I can only rely on the answer the witness gives

2   me, your Honour.

3   Might those folders collectively now be marked for

4   identification as MFI16.

5   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I object. They have not been

6   identified by this witness.

7   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has.

8   MR. O'SULLIVAN: He said they appeared to be, they might be,

9   he does not know and he put three stickers on them. How

10   is that identification, your Honour?

11   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not put any stickers on them.

12   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just now, he did.

13   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After certain explanations by the

14   Prosecutor, but when he was shown the folders he took

15   them to be the ones which he collected.

16   MR. O'SULLIVAN: But he was not sure they are the ones. He

17   says they may be.

18   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is why you have to accept them for

19   identification before anybody really might have dealt

20   with them. He should be able to tell.

21   MR. NIEMANN: I have specifically marked them for

22   identification. I thought that was clear, your Honour.

23   Mr. Navrat, during the course of the search that

24   you conducted, did anybody assist you in -- did any of

25   the witnesses that were there assist you in pointing

Page 5658

1   objects out to you?

2   A. The witness Kovanovic at the outset of the search was

3   asked whether there were any items in the INDA-Bau firm

4   that might relate to war crimes in the former

5   Yugoslavia, but he did not know of anything, so the

6   items that were seized were seized on the basis of the

7   decisions by myself and my colleagues.

8   Q. When you were seizing objects and items at the premises,

9   did anyone raise any objection to you seizing any

10   particular material?

11   A. No.

12   Q. When you seized these materials, both the videos and the

13   twelve folders, were they in your possession at all

14   times up until you handed them over to Mr. Panzer?

15   A. Until I handed them over to Mr. Panzer, that is right,

16   they were in my possession until that point in time.

17   Q. Have you seen the materials from the time that you

18   seized -- the materials you seized from the time that

19   you handed them to Mr. Panzer until now when you gave

20   evidence?

21   A. Yes.

22   Q. When did you see them?

23   A. On Friday 1st August 1997.

24   Q. That was here in The Hague, was it?

25   A. That is right, yes.

Page 5659

1   MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

2   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

3   Cross-examined by MR. O'SULLIVAN

4   Q. Yes, there is, your honours. We will proceed in this

5   order. First counsel for Mr. Delalic, second counsel for

6   Mr. Mucic, third counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel

7   for Mr. Landzo.

8   Good afternoon, your honours. Sir, I have some

9   questions for you regarding this matter. You are a

10   member of Division 1 that reports to the Vienna police

11   department; is that correct?

12   A. That is right, yes.

13   Q. You said you hold the rank of senior detective, you held

14   that position in March 1996?

15   A. That is right.

16   Q. And your colleagues in that division are Mr. Moerbaur,

17   Gschwendt and Panzer; is that right?

18   A. That is right.

19   Q. You know that Mr. Moerbaur and Gschwendt have testified

20   before this Tribunal in connection with this matter?

21   A. Yes, I heard of that.

22   Q. You know that Mr. Panzer is to follow?

23   A. Yes, that is right.

24   Q. I would like to know a little bit about the rank of each

25   one of your colleagues back in March 1996. First

Page 5660

1   Mr. Moerbaur, what rank did he hold?

2   A. He was in the group that reported to Mr. Panzer.

3   Q. What about Mr. Gschwendt?

4   A. He was the leader of that group.

5   Q. And Mr. Panzer?

6   A. He was the group leader.

7   Q. Perhaps you could help me out a little bit here. I am

8   not familiar with the hierarchy. Which of those three

9   men was the superior.

10   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You want to know the team leader?

11   MR. O'SULLIVAN: What I have understood is group leader,

12   leader of the group?

13   A. Mr. Panzer was leader of the group, Mr. Gschwendt is the

14   senior police officer in that group; that is to say that

15   the other officers report to him.

16   Q. So Gschwendt is the highest ranking officer?

17   A. That is right.

18   Q. Moerbaur and Panzer report to him?

19   A. That is right, they reported to him.

20   Q. In March 1996. And Moerbaur and Panzer were at the same

21   level in rank?

22   A. Mr. Moerbaur is subordinate in certain ways to

23   Mr. Panzer. Mr. Panzer is a group leader and Mr. Moerbaur

24   is a case manager, as it were, in that connection.

25   Q. Did you work with these three gentlemen in preparing any

Page 5661

1   of the background in connection with the arrest of

2   Mr. Mucic and the searches and seizures that followed?

3   A. No, actually my only involvement was as part of the

4   search, in carrying out the search. I did not have

5   anything to do with it prior to that or after that.

6   Q. Is it correct to say that you are not familiar with many

7   of the documents on file?

8   A. I certainly could not recognise each and every one of

9   them.

10   Q. Division 1, I would like to talk about that for a

11   minute. I believe you said that Division 1 is

12   responsible for the protection of the state, of

13   individuals and of property.

14   A. Division 1 is responsible for the protection, as you

15   said, of state, individuals and property.

16   Q. My understanding is that your division deals primarily

17   with offences which are in the Criminal Code which are

18   considered to be political in nature.

19   A. Yes, you could put it that way.

20   Q. For example, that would include offences like a threat

21   to the neutrality of Austria?

22   A. Yes, that would probably fall within the sphere of our

23   department.

24   Q. As well you provide protection during official visits

25   and also in connection with international organisations,

Page 5662

1   do you not?

2   A. Yes, that is right.

3   Q. So we can consider Division 1 to be an elite unit within

4   the Austrian police force; is that right?

5   A. No, I would not put it that way. It does not relate to

6   Austria as a whole, this concerns just the city of

7   Vienna. I would not necessarily characterise it as an

8   elite group.

9   Q. How long have you been a police officer?

10   A. Could you be more specific in the question? Do you mean

11   detective or police officer? What do you have in mind?

12   Q. In total, for both.

13   A. I joined in August 1979. That is when I went to the

14   police academy and then in 1984 I took a course to

15   become a detective.

16   Q. So since 1979 you have been in the police force --

17   police training and thereafter became a policeman, then

18   a detective?

19   A. That is right.

20   Q. So about 18 years?

21   A. Yes.

22   Q. Time flies. I am assuming that you have had a number of

23   years of training, both practical and theoretical, as

24   you worked your way up through the ranks.

25   A. That is right.

Page 5663

1   Q. Part of your training must have included the handling of

2   physical evidence; is that right?

3   A. Yes.

4   Q. And in fact this is part of the training of all police

5   officers in Vienna, is it not?

6   A. As part of their training, yes.

7   Q. And during your many years of experience, you have had

8   occasion to seize evidence pursuant to search warrants,

9   have you not?

10   A. Not all that much, to tell you the truth.

11   Q. But when a search and seizure is carried out pursuant to

12   a search warrant, the procedures that you must follow

13   are governed by Austrian law; is that right?

14   A. That is right.

15   Q. You have been trained in these aspects of Austrian law?

16   A. That is right.

17   Q. Very briefly, could you tell us what this training

18   involved?

19   A. What training are you referring to? As a police officer

20   or as a detective?

21   Q. I am wondering how extensive your training on handling

22   physical evidence, searches and seizures over the

23   years. It is extensive, is it?

24   A. This is something that is taught as part of training,

25   yes.

Page 5664

1   Q. So in this regard, you are familiar with the code of

2   Austrian law which embodies these procedures for search

3   and seizure?

4   A. It is not in the Criminal Code, it is in the code of

5   criminal procedure rather.

6   Q. You are familiar with that code?

7   A. I know those rules and regulations in it, yes.

8   Q. It is on the basis of this code that the alleged search

9   and seizure was conducted at INDA-Bau; is that right?

10   A. That is right.

11   Q. Is this a copy of the code? (indicates)

12   A. Yes, it is.

13   Q. I would like to look at a few sections of the code with

14   you, with the help of the usher.

15   This, your honours, is a copy of the code with the

16   relevant pages photocopied with translations. There is

17   a translation for each one of you.

18   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you intend to do with it?

19   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Just to briefly go over the procedures to

20   better understand what the procedures were pursuant to

21   this code when he performed the alleged search and

22   seizure. I will be brief.

23   MR. NIEMANN: Might the Prosecution be favoured with a copy?

24   (Handed).

25   THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked as 155/1 -- 55/1.

Page 5665

1   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Perhaps I can refer you first to

2   Article 139. Article 139, paragraph 1, are you familiar

3   with that section? That is the basis for a house

4   search, is it not?

5   A. Yes, that is right.

6   Q. And certain conditions must be fulfilled for the search

7   to be legal under Austrian law; is that correct?

8   A. Yes, that is right.

9   Q. One of those conditions is there must be a well-founded

10   suspicion that the person you are looking for is inside

11   the house.

12   JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Is it really relevant? This is

13   a search by the police on its own. Here he was carrying

14   out a search in pursuance of a warrant which had been

15   issued. Why do you refer to this section? Come to a

16   more relevant section.

17   MR. O'SULLIVAN: This section is mentioned in the --

18   JUDGE JAN: I know that. Here he was carrying out an order

19   of the investigating judge, carrying out a search. How

20   will this be relevant?

21   MR. O'SULLIVAN: This, your Honour, is the basis for the

22   warrant and it is mentioned in the warrant.

23   JUDGE JAN: He is a police officer. He was charged to

24   execute a particular warrant. That was what he was

25   doing. Perhaps you can refer to the grantees, to the

Page 5666

1   rights of the person whose premises are to be searched,

2   whether those rights were respected or not. That would

3   be more relevant.

4   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.

5   Let us look at Article 142, paragraph 2. That

6   makes reference to the persons who are present during

7   the search, or should be present during the search; is

8   that right?

9   A. That is right.

10   Q. And there are three possibilities under Article 142,

11   paragraph 2. The first one is the owner of the premises

12   must be asked to be present, correct?

13   A. That is right.

14   Q. And if the owner is not available an adult member of his

15   family must be asked to be present during the search and

16   seizure?

17   A. Or someone else -- if someone else is involved, which

18   was the case in the search in question.

19   Q. I am just asking you generally. You would agree with me

20   that if it is not the owner, it is an adult member of

21   the family?

22   A. That is right.

23   Q. The third possibility, if the family member is not

24   available, a fellow lodger or a neighbour must be asked

25   to be present.

Page 5667

1   A. That is right.

2   Q. In the case of this third category, this person must be

3   an adult as well, right?

4   A. That is right.

5   Q. If you look at Article 143, paragraph 1 --

6   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have not exhausted that.

7   MR. O'SULLIVAN: No, I have not, your Honour.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A fellow lodger or a neighbour.

9   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Quite correct, your Honour, pardon me. It

10   is a fellow lodger or a neighbour who must be present

11   under paragraph 2, Article 142.

12   A. Yes, it is written here.

13   Q. Before I go to 143, Article 142, paragraph 4, says that

14   there must be a record made of the search; is that

15   correct?

16   A. That is right.

17   Q. That is the record you have been referring to?

18   A. That is the record.

19   Q. Under Article 143, paragraph 1, there must be a list, an

20   inventory of the alleged items that are seized, correct?

21   A. That is right, the items seized have to be listed and

22   that list then is submitted to the relevant court.

23   Q. Right. The seized items must be handed over and

24   protected by the court; is that correct?

25   A. The seized items are listed and the items that appear to

Page 5668

1   be significant to the case are handed over to the court

2   along with a list thereof.

3   Q. For the whole time they are in the care and control of

4   the police, who hand it over to the court?

5   A. That is right.

6   Q. Article 144 relates to items which are seized which are

7   not a part of the warrant, and if that is the case, a

8   special record must be completed; is that correct?

9   A. If the items are not related to this case, but if they

10   do relate perhaps to some other criminal proceedings,

11   then one does have to draw up a separate record.

12   Q. And the Prosecutor must be informed immediately if that

13   is the case?

14   A. Yes, that should be the case.

15   Q. If the Prosecutor decides not to press charges, those

16   items must be given back immediately, that is in 144(2),

17   is it not?

18   A. That is the common practice.

19   Q. I just want to look at one more article with you, then

20   we are finished with the code. Article 145,

21   paragraph 1. It says there:

22   "During a search of documents, one must ensure

23   that their content is not made available to unauthorised

24   persons."

25   Is that correct?

Page 5669

1   A. Yes.

2   Q. In paragraph 2 of Article 145, it says:

3   "If the owner does not allow the search of

4   documents, they must be sealed and deposited with a

5   court."

6   Is that correct?

7   A. If requested to do so, yes.

8   Q. And under paragraph 3 of Article 145, it says:

9   "Documents which cannot be properly recorded must

10   be put in an envelope and sealed with an official seal."

11   Is that correct?

12   A. That is what it says here, yes.

13   Q. Then there are procedures in that paragraph 3 for

14   allowing the owner to perhaps put his seal on the

15   envelope, and then there are procedures for breaking the

16   seal thereafter; is that correct?

17   A. That is right.

18   Q. That is all the questions I have on the code. Could

19   I ask for the witness to be shown the search warrant

20   which was D164, please? (Handed). I just have one

21   question based on the warrant for you. It says:

22   "The search warrant is to be served to those

23   concerned immediately or at least 24 hours after the

24   search."

25   That is pursuant to Article 140, paragraph 3 of

Page 5670

1   this code we just looked at; is that correct?

2   A. No, it says here that within 24 hours, the person

3   involved is to receive the search warrant.

4   Q. As far as you know, Mr. Delalic was never served with

5   this warrant, was he?

6   A. That was not required either, because this case was

7   against Zdravko Mucic. Subsequent to our search, he was

8   at the police station and he did receive a copy and in

9   fact signed it as indicated.

10   Q. I would like to talk to you a little bit now about the

11   paperwork that accompanies a search and seizure, some of

12   which we have looked at here. I would like to talk a

13   bit about the record, the German word is Niederschrift.

14   Just so we understand each other or use the same

15   language, I will refer to that as the record. When

16   I say record I am referring to Niederschrift, just to

17   make sure we understand each other.

18   My understanding is that the record is prepared on

19   the spot during the search and seizure of property.

20   A. Normally yes, to make things easier we fill in parts of

21   it in advance and in the code of criminal procedure, it

22   does say that a search is to be carried out in such a

23   manner as to cause as little annoyance or trouble to the

24   persons involved as possible.

25   Q. And the record is the only record of the search and

Page 5671

1   seizure which is prepared on the spot, is it not?

2   A. That is the only record that is drawn up on the spot and

3   a copy of that document is handed over to the persons

4   present at the search.

5   Q. It is fair to say that the record is made to show that

6   proper procedures have been followed; is that correct?

7   A. That is possible, yes.

8   Q. Is that not the reason you fill it out, to show that

9   proper procedures are followed?

10   A. No, it is indicated here what the legal basis is and

11   what was seized.

12   Q. So it is to show that the search and seizure are legal

13   then; is that correct?

14   A. That is right, there is a court ordered search warrant

15   that was the basis for this search, and subsequently on

16   this basis the material was confiscated.

17   Q. For now I would like to just talk about the record in

18   general, not this specific one for this case, all

19   right? Just so we all understand what the record is.

20   To show that the search and seizure are legal, the

21   record is preserved, is it not, as evidence?

22   A. Yes, for one, and then secondly the witnesses confirmed

23   that that was the case.

24   Q. That is why the record contains the date of the search,

25   right, so we know when it occurred?

Page 5672

1   A. Yes.

2   Q. That is why it indicates the time at which the search

3   occurred?

4   A. Yes, but there is also a specific report addressing the

5   matter.

6   Q. For now let us just discuss the record, if you do not

7   mind. So date, time, location of the search is in the

8   record?

9   A. The date is on there, usually we do not write in the

10   time, that is reported in the report.

11   Q. You are telling me that the time is not normally

12   recorded in the record; is that correct?

13   A. At all events, I did not refer to it here in this

14   record.

15   Q. Again, sir, I would like to talk generally about the

16   record, not this specific record of this alleged search

17   and seizure. I am asking just general questions about a

18   record. The time should be indicated in the record, is

19   that correct? There is a line for that.

20   A. The end of -- at the end of the search normally a copy

21   is handed over to those present with the time.

22   Q. And the record, generally speaking, makes a note of the

23   location where the search took place?

24   A. That is right.

25   Q. It identifies who conducted the search, does it not?

Page 5673

1   A. That is right.

2   Q. It states the grounds for the search?

3   A. The basis on which the search was conducted, yes, that

4   is indicated.

5   Q. As you have already told us, it will list the objects

6   allegedly seized.

7   A. Provisionally seized objects are indicated, yes.

8   Q. It indicates the persons present, the owner of the

9   property or his representative; is that correct?

10   A. The persons present are indicated, yes.

11   Q. The record is signed on the spot, on the premises, by

12   the police officers who conducted the search and

13   seizure?

14   A. The record is signed by the officers as well as by the

15   persons present on the spot.

16   Q. You are talking there aside from the police officers,

17   the property owner or his representative signs it on the

18   spot?

19   A. The persons who were present at the search sign. The

20   person concerned need not sign this -- he may not be

21   there, he may be abroad or somewhere else.

22   Q. Yes, we understand that. The person who signs the

23   record is allowed to look at the record before it is

24   signed; is that correct?

25   A. That is right, the persons signing here, the witnesses

Page 5674

1   as well as possibly the person concerned, they not only

2   have a chance to see it but they also, in fact, get a

3   copy of it.

4   Q. And before they sign it they are allowed to verify the

5   accuracy of the contents of that record, are they not?

6   A. They can read it and check it, yes.

7   Q. They can also check it against the allegedly seized

8   items, can they not?

9   A. Yes, that is right.

10   Q. As you said, the owner or his representatives receives a

11   fully completed and signed copy of the record as proof

12   of the search and seizure, on the premises he receives

13   that?

14   A. A copy is left on the premises should the person

15   involved or one of his representatives be able to take

16   hold of it at some point in time.

17   Q. Thereafter, this record serves as the basis for other

18   documents prepared by the police relating to that

19   particular search and seizure; is that correct?

20   A. Could you please be a little more specific about that?

21   Q. There are documents other than the record which are

22   prepared following a search and seizure and my question

23   is this: the record serves as the basis in the

24   preparation of the other documents.

25   A. That is right, subsequently, the seized items are

Page 5675

1   analysed and thereafter there is a list drawn up and

2   that list is made available to the court.

3   Q. Another use the record is put to is this: it serves as

4   proof before the courts to show how a particular search

5   was carried out; is that not correct?

6   A. It is proof that the search took place and it indicates

7   what items were seized.

8   Q. As we have seen, sir, the record is a very short concise

9   document.

10   A. Yes.

11   Q. I am sure you would agree with me that it is fair to say

12   that the most important factors found in the record are

13   the date, the persons present at the search, and the

14   items seized; is that not correct?

15   A. They are in the record, yes.

16   Q. And they are the three most important factors in that

17   record, are they not?

18   A. As said, all persons present, the officers who conducted

19   the search and the objects seized. As I see it, those

20   are the most important entries.

21   Q. Inaccuracies on those points make the record unreliable,

22   do they not?

23   A. I would not necessarily agree with that. It depends on

24   the errors that were made.

25   Q. The preparation of the record, as you have already said

Page 5676

1   and as we have already seen, is required by law, is it

2   not?

3   A. The record is not laid down by the law, this is drawn up

4   by us. What has to be provided to the court is a list,

5   an inventory of the objects seized.

6   Q. But the law requires you to prepare the record, does it

7   not?

8   A. The law requires that the objects seized be listed in an

9   inventory, as it were.

10   Q. That is done through the record?

11   A. The inventory that goes to the court is not based on

12   this record, rather it is drawn up subsequently.

13   Q. If you move to this particular case, you will see that

14   the record was used before this court, so it is an

15   important document, would you not agree?

16   MR. NIEMANN: I object to that question, your Honour. It is

17   not fair to put that to this witness. The witness has

18   already said the document was drawn up for the purposes

19   of his own proceedings. If there is some subsequent

20   proceedings somewhere else in the world that takes

21   place, surely this witness cannot be expected to

22   contemplate the possibility that that document is then

23   going to turn up here and then have to give explanations

24   for inaccuracies in whatever may appear in it. I object

25   to that question, your Honour.

Page 5677

1   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Let us try it this way then. You have

2   mentioned that there are documents made subsequently to

3   the record which are required by law.

4   A. The inventory is referred to in the code of criminal

5   procedure.

6   Q. When I asked you whether the record served as a basis

7   for the preparation of those documents, you answered

8   yes, did you not?

9   A. That is right.

10   Q. I would like to talk about a second set of documents,

11   the German word is Bericht, but I will be using the word

12   report, if that is all right with you, just so we know

13   we are communicating and for your honours as well.

14   I will be referring to the report when I mean Bericht.

15   Subsequent to the record, one or more reports may

16   be prepared, is that correct, following a search and

17   seizure?

18   A. A report is drawn up about the search.

19   Q. There can be more than one report prepared, depending on

20   whether or not items are seized during a search; is that

21   not correct?

22   A. There will be perhaps several reports depending on the

23   outcome of the search and then there is also the

24   inventory which will go to the court. There is more

25   information about the items referred to on the record,

Page 5678

1   that is to say the seized items.

2   Q. Am I correct to say that whether or not items are sized

3   during a search, a record called the house search is

4   prepared?

5   A. I only drew up a report about the search, but there

6   would be further reports about the analysis of the items

7   seized.

8   Q. Again, I am trying to speak just generally about

9   reports, but the one you drew up, the one you have just

10   referred to, can we call that the report of the house

11   search?

12   A. That is right.

13   Q. That type of report, the house search, is drawn up

14   whether or not items are seized during the house search?

15   A. That is right.

16   Q. And this is usually done shortly after the record is

17   made?

18   A. It is when you get back to the police station that you

19   draw up the report.

20   Q. Okay. This report, the house search, is prepared in

21   part on the basis of the record, is that correct?

22   A. That is right.

23   Q. In preparing the record, the house search, this first --

24   the report -- I will start again.

25   In preparing this report of the house search, are

Page 5679

1   the allegedly confiscated items also examined by the

2   person who prepares this report?

3   A. I just can refer to this case, it depends whether you

4   are going to go on working on the case in question or

5   not. Here that was not the case so all I could do was

6   draw up a report about the search and no further reports

7   about the items seized, that is I had handed the seized

8   items over.

9   Q. Let me be more specific. In preparing this report, does

10   a police officer look both at the record and at the

11   confiscated material, or just the record?

12   A. In this one report, it is not the seized items that are

13   referred to, it indicates how the search went, when it

14   was conducted, who was there, but it does not relate to

15   the objects seized.

16   Q. So when the initial report is made the police officer

17   never looks at the seized items; is that correct?

18   A. As a rule, he does, but in this specific case the

19   situation was somewhat different.

20   Q. In the case, generally speaking, where there is nothing

21   seized during a search and seizure, this first report is

22   the end of the documentation; is that correct?

23   A. No, there would be a report about the search all the

24   same.

25   Q. In the case where something is seized during a search,

Page 5680

1   there are, as you have already indicated, other reports

2   prepared concerning the items allegedly seized?

3   A. That is right, and this is what is laid down by law.

4   This is the document that is put together that has been

5   referred to as an inventory and that has to go to the

6   court.

7   Q. I would like to refer to two specific types of reports.

8   You have just mentioned one, a report called an

9   inventory or an evaluation -- sorry, an estimation, and

10   the second one being a report which is an evaluation.

11   You have heard of those two types of reports?

12   A. If something is seized there would be at least two

13   different ones, yes.

14   Q. These are the two that would be prepared?

15   A. Not necessarily. In this instance, it was not me.

16   I drew up the report about the search, and the seized

17   items were handed over to the relevant departments so

18   that the latter could proceed with the appropriate

19   analysis.

20   Q. Okay. This report, the inventory, is a relatively short

21   report which lists the allegedly seized items; is that

22   correct?

23   A. The list should contain the seized items along with a

24   bit more elaborate description thereof.

25   Q. It is a little bit more elaborate than the first report

Page 5681

1   which we call the house search, but it is still a

2   relatively short document?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. And the second report which we are calling the

5   evaluation is a much longer, much more detailed report?

6   A. That could end up being a rather lengthy document, yes.

7   Q. I think you have already said that these two last

8   reports, the inventory and the evaluation, are not

9   necessarily prepared by the police officer who conducted

10   the search and seizure?

11   A. That can be the case, yes.

12   Q. And in fact these two reports may be prepared by a

13   police officer who did not prepare the record or the

14   first report?

15   A. That is right, and that is what happened here.

16   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will rise now and come back

17   at 4.30.

18   (4.00 pm)

19   (A short break)

20   (4.30 pm)

21   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still

22   on his oath.

23   THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Navrat, may I remind you you are still

24   under oath.

25   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. O'Sullivan.

Page 5682

1   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, your Honour. Before the break,

2   we were talking about some of the documentation that is

3   prepared in connection with a search and seizure. The

4   purpose at this point is to become familiar with some of

5   this paperwork, because most of us in this courtroom are

6   not familiar with Austrian police procedures, so I am

7   not necessarily talking specifically about the matter

8   you are here to testify about, I would like to speak for

9   the next couple of minutes about the documents

10   generally.

11   So far, we have seen that there is a document

12   called the record, and so far we have looked at three

13   types of reports, the house search report we have gone

14   over, the report we have called the inventory, and the

15   report we have called the evaluation. Just before we

16   broke off we were talking about the two last reports,

17   the inventory and the evaluation. I believe my last

18   question was that these last two reports, the inventory

19   and the evaluation, are prepared in part on the basis of

20   the record and of the report called the house search; is

21   that correct?

22   A. That is right.

23   Q. As well in preparing these last two reports, police

24   officers examine the allegedly seized items; is that

25   correct?

Page 5683

1   A. That is right, yes.

2   Q. In regards to all three reports, the property owner or

3   his representative is not present when those reports are

4   prepared?

5   A. That is right.

6   Q. So this person does not sign the reports?

7   A. That is right.

8   Q. And he does not receive a copy of the reports?

9   A. That is right, too.

10   Q. Just to confirm what you said earlier, these reports are

11   used as proof before the courts to show how a particular

12   search and seizure was carried out and how seized

13   property was controlled while in police custody?

14   A. Yes.

15   Q. In short, it is to see whether the search and seizures

16   are legal, is that fair?

17   A. That can probably already be gleaned from the record

18   because the reference to the legal basis in it.

19   Q. These reports are also prepared to show whether the

20   evidence is reliable; is that not correct?

21   A. Well, the further analysis serves to indicate to the

22   court which objects are relevant to the case and to

23   provide the court with those objects.

24   Q. Aside from being relevant, it shows how reliable the

25   evidence is, whether it came from where we said it came,

Page 5684

1   things like that?

2   A. Could you please be more specific?

3   Q. The paper trail is supposed to start at the premises and

4   end in the courtroom to show that there is some sort of

5   reliability regarding where the evidence came from and

6   how much faith we can put in it?

7   A. Yes, I would take it that is the case.

8   Q. My last question on the Bericht, they, as you said, are

9   all required by law, the preparation of the reports are

10   all required by law?

11   A. No, that is not right. What is provided for in the law

12   is listing the objects seized in the inventory, and also

13   to provide the person concerned with a document about

14   the search.

15   Q. All right. I would like to move on to another set of

16   questions. Aside from the alleged search and seizure at

17   INDA-Bau, you know there was also searches and seizures

18   carried out at Taubergasse 15 in relation to this

19   matter.

20   A. At about this same time there were other searches that

21   were being carried out, but with regard to the specific

22   addresses I am afraid I cannot help you there.

23   Q. You have already indicated, and we have already seen

24   that your signature appears on the record prepared in

25   connection with INDA-Bau.

Page 5685

1   A. I did put a sort of signature on it, yes.

2   Q. And your signature also appears on the report, the house

3   search, which is prepared in connection with INDA-Bau?

4   A. That is right.

5   Q. I believe you said that you were not a part of the

6   planning of this operation; is that correct?

7   A. That is right.

8   Q. But you would agree with me that this was a well manned

9   and well planned operation.

10   A. Well, I cannot really judge that, because I had to go to

11   carry out this search on short notice, and I am not at

12   all aware as to how the search, the operation was

13   planned.

14   Q. But you were well manned?

15   A. For this search I did have staff along, as said,

16   officers from the 16th District of Vienna.

17   Q. So you had enough competent men with you to do this

18   search properly; is that right?

19   A. Yes, that is right.

20   Q. I assume things went smoothly and there was no pressure

21   on you to hurry operations, was there?

22   A. There were no incidents in the course of the search and

23   there were no consequent complaints tendered to the

24   police concerning it.

25   Q. Let us go back to INDA-Bau for a second. I have a few

Page 5686

1   questions about the allegedly seized items. You say

2   that some documents were seized at INDA-Bau, correct?

3   A. A large number of documents were seized that were to be

4   found in these folders.

5   Q. It is clear from what you said on direct that these

6   documents were not marked before being taken away from

7   the premises?

8   A. That is correct.

9   Q. You do not know how many documents there were in total?

10   A. That is right.

11   Q. So you certainly have no idea how many pages there were?

12   A. That is right.

13   Q. I thought I heard you say that allegedly, there were

14   videos seized at INDA-Bau?

15   A. That is right.

16   Q. And the videos were not marked before you left the

17   premises?

18   A. They were not marked either, no.

19   Q. You say these items were brought back to police

20   headquarters?

21   A. These objects were taken to the office where Mr. Panzer

22   is stationed.

23   Q. You brought these items back in a cardboard box; is that

24   right?

25   A. The video tapes were in a cardboard box and the folders

Page 5687

1   were in a plastic bag.

2   Q. So there was one bag and one box; is that right?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. What were the dimensions of that box?

5   A. I am afraid I cannot tell you that at present.

6   Q. You do not recall?

7   JUDGE JAN: That must be a standard cardboard box for the

8   police.

9   A. It was a standard cardboard box, there is all different

10   kinds of sizes. I am afraid today I can no longer tell

11   you exactly what size it was. At all events, it was big

12   enough for the video tapes to fit in it.

13   MR. O'SULLIVAN: So it was just an average size box.

14   A. Yes, you could put it that way.

15   Q. This cardboard box was not marked before leaving

16   INDA-Bau, was it?

17   A. It was not marked either, no.

18   Q. This cardboard box was not sealed in any way before

19   leaving INDA-Bau, was it?

20   A. It was not sealed, nor was there any insistence that it

21   be sealed.

22   Q. My understanding is that the flaps were intertwined on

23   the box?

24   A. I cannot tell you whether that is the case or not.

25   Q. So the box may have been wide open?

Page 5688

1   A. It could have been open as well, and the plastic bag

2   might have been on top of it with the folders in it.

3   Q. And the plastic bag was not marked in any way, was it?

4   A. It was not marked either, no.

5   Q. And it was not sealed?

6   A. It was not sealed.

7   Q. So nothing prevented anyone from easily opening the bag

8   or the box to have access to the contents; is that

9   right?

10   A. That is not right.

11   Q. If you have a wide open box or intertwined flaps and a

12   plastic bag that is not sealed, there is not much

13   between the contents and the outside world, is there?

14   A. These objects, the objects that I seized, were in

15   custody from the moment I took them until they were

16   brought and delivered to the police station. They were

17   in my custody.

18   Q. That was not my question. My question was that both the

19   bag and the box could be easily opened. He did not

20   answer that question.

21   MR. NIEMANN: That was not the question, your Honour.

22   JUDGE JAN: That is an inference, it could be opened. What

23   do you want to ask the witness?

24   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Very well. I would like to talk

25   specifically about the trip from INDA-Bau to police

Page 5689

1   headquarters. Did you and your colleagues return to

2   police headquarters?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. Along with you came the allegedly seized items from

5   INDA-Bau; is that right?

6   A. They were in the vehicle.

7   Q. Who had care and control of these items during this trip

8   from INDA-Bau to police headquarters?

9   A. The objects were under my control.

10   Q. At what time did you arrive at police headquarters?

11   A. I can no longer tell you precisely. At all events, it

12   must have been before 4.45 pm, I would assume.

13   Q. So you would say between 4.30 and 4.45, is that fair?

14   A. I take it, as I can recall, the search was over by 4 pm,

15   so it takes some 15 or 20 minutes to get back to police

16   headquarters.

17   Q. At what time did you leave police headquarters that day?

18   A. I assume that it would be between 1 and 2 pm that day.

19   Q. So 1 o'clock on the morning of the next day; is that

20   correct? Did I understand you correctly?

21   A. I do not recall the time.

22   Q. There may have been a problem in translation, so I will

23   ask the question to you one more time. You arrived at

24   police headquarters between 4.30 and 4.45.

25   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us narrow down the question; 4.30

Page 5690

1   or 4.45 pm, is it? So he will know from where to take

2   off.

3   MR. O'SULLIVAN: We will say you arrived at 4.45 pm at police

4   headquarters. What time did you leave police

5   headquarters that day?

6   A. I must have reached police headquarters by 4.45 at the

7   latest. As to when I left police headquarters, I am

8   afraid I no longer remember.

9   Q. Was it before midnight?

10   A. I assume so.

11   Q. Were you there for one hour, two hours, four hours?

12   A. I cannot really say, I am afraid. I do not remember.

13   Q. It would be more than a hour?

14   A. I believe so, yes.

15   Q. But it could have been more?

16   A. It could have been more, yes.

17   Q. You say that you brought these items allegedly seized

18   from INDA-Bau to room 326?

19   A. The objects which I seized were brought to the office

20   where Mr. Panzer and his group were stationed.

21   Q. That is the office of Moerbaur, Bycek and Panzer?

22   A. Moerbaur, Bycek and Panzer.

23   Q. At what time did you go to that room?

24   A. As I said, it had to be before 4.45 in the afternoon.

25   Q. So you went immediately to that room?

Page 5691

1   A. Yes, that is right.

2   Q. You handed the objects over to Panzer; is that correct?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. When Mr. Moerbaur was here testifying he said you gave

5   the objects to him?

6   A. I placed these objects on Mr. Panzer's desk and I told

7   him that I was done with the search and he took over

8   these objects.

9   Q. Mr. Moerbaur says you gave him those objects in room

10   331.

11   A. I do not know where room 331 is. I brought these

12   objects to the office where Mr. Panzer and his colleagues

13   were housed and I cannot really tell you whether it was

14   326 or 327, but at all events, it is the room where

15   Panzer and his group were lodged.

16   Q. Mr. Moerbaur describes room 331 as the office he shares

17   with his colleagues. Does that sound right?

18   A. If that is the room then it might well be room 331, yes.

19   Q. Is that the room where allegedly seized items from the

20   other locations were brought?

21   A. I assume so.

22   Q. What are the dimensions of that room approximately?

23   A. I take it it is about between

20   to 30 square metres.

24   Q. Is there furniture in that room?

25   A. There are cabinets and a number of desks there.

Page 5692

1   Q. The room into which you brought your allegedly seized

2   items, there were also many other people there that

3   evening, were there not?

4   A. Mr. Bycek and Mr. Moerbaur might already perhaps have been

5   there, but I can no longer tell you that precisely.

6   Q. Did other people arrive in that room that evening?

7   A. I cannot comment on that either, because after I handed

8   over the objects I had seized to Mr. Panzer I went to my

9   office to draw up the report.

10   Q. So you are saying you just dropped off the objects and

11   left the room; is that right?

12   A. You could put it that way, yes.

13   Q. Then you went off to prepare the report.

14   A. That is right.

15   Q. So you have no idea whether they were objects brought in

16   from the other locations in relation to other seizures

17   in this matter; you do not know whether they came that

18   night or not, is that what you are saying?

19   A. I cannot comment on that.

20   Q. You do not know whether the police officers who

21   allegedly performed those other searches and seizures

22   showed up that evening? You never saw them either?

23   A. I can no longer remember.

24   Q. Did you see Mr. Zdravko Mucic that evening?

25   A. I am aware that he was taken to police headquarters, but

Page 5693

1   I did not see Mr. Mucic.

2   Q. How long after -- I will come back to that in a second.

3   Let us talk about the documents specifically that

4   you prepared in connection with the alleged search and

5   seizure at INDA-Bau. Aside from the record you prepared

6   or signed, and the report, the house search, which you

7   prepared and signed, you know that there were two other

8   reports prepared as well. Let me help you. One of them

9   was prepared, the inventory, by Bycek and Panzer on

10   April 22nd 1996, and the other report, the evaluation

11   was prepared by Bycek and Panzer again on April

12   22nd 1996.

13   A. I only know of my record and my report. With regard to

14   the inventory and the analysis report, I cannot tell you

15   anything about it, because I had no further dealings

16   with this case.

17   Q. So you have never seen those documents?

18   A. I saw these documents when looking through things at the

19   company premises. I have never seen these other two

20   reports.

21   Q. You said earlier, I believe, that the alleged search and

22   seizure took place on 18th March; is that correct?

23   A. This search took place on 18th March 1996.

24   Q. With the assistance of the usher, could we have the

25   record, Prosecution Exhibit 165 and 165A, shown to the

Page 5694

1   witness, please? (Handed). I also have copies for the

2   three judges.

3   MR. NIEMANN: I must confess, your Honour, I am confused as

4   to what these documents are. I thought the usher was

5   asked to show the witness the Prosecution exhibit.

6   Unless my friend has copied the Prosecution exhibit,

7   I do not know what he is now showing your honours.

8   MR. O'SULLIVAN: I do not know if we can have it marked as a

9   Delalic exhibit as well.

10   MR. NIEMANN: I certainly have no problem with the witness

11   being shown a Prosecution exhibit, I just do not know

12   what this document is.

13   JUDGE JAN: An exhibit is an exhibit, part of the record.

14   If a document is already part of the record, you can

15   take advantage of it. Why have it twice exhibited, once

16   as a Prosecution exhibit and again as a Defence

17   exhibit?

18   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is already in the list of exhibits.

19   There is no point, except if there is a difference

20   between the two, and you intend to emphasise the

21   difference, that one can understand, but as long as it

22   is the same document.

23   MR. O'SULLIVAN: It is, your honours. You have the record in

24   front of you, sir.

25   A. Yes.

Page 5695

1   Q. I am looking at the first page. I would like to go over

2   this a little bit with you. Up in the top right of the

3   record we see the date, 19th March 1996, typed in; is

4   that correct?

5   A. That is right.

6   Q. If we go to the bottom of that first page on the last

7   line, the blank space over the word "date" is not filled

8   in, is it?

9   A. That is right.

10   Q. So on the face of this document, it shows that the

11   search of INDA-Bau took place on 19th March 1996?

12   A. No, that is not what it means. The search was carried

13   out on 18th March.

14   Q. That is what you told me earlier, but you also told me

15   earlier that this document is prepared on the spot,

16   during the search. So on the face of it, it shows

17   19th March 1996, does it not?

18   A. I already indicated today that this record was handed to

19   me already partly filled out. Apparently, the officers

20   who filled it out expected the search to take place on

21   19th March and so that is how they gave it to me and

22   I did not check this document.

23   Q. But on the bottom line, there is this place for the date

24   which is blank. You could have written in the date,

25   right?

Page 5696

1   A. That is right.

2   Q. Are you sure it took place on the date that you said it

3   took place, this search and seizure?

4   A. Yes, I am quite sure about that, because I drew up my

5   report about the search and I indicated then what the

6   date was and Mr. Kovanovic, who was present in the

7   premises, was provided with a copy.

8   Q. But all we have is your word against this document, is

9   that correct, on the date when the alleged search and

10   seizure take place?

11   A. The search took place on 18th March 1996.

12   Q. Are you telling me there were two searches; one on the

13   18th, one on the 19th?

14   JUDGE JAN: He has already explained it.

15   A. There was only one search, and it took place on

16   18th March.

17   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any good reason why you think

18   you need to emphasise the difference in the dates?

19   MR. O'SULLIVAN: On the front page again at the bottom on the

20   last line in the blank space over the word "time", which

21   is right next to the blank space over the word "date".

22   It is not filled in, is it?

23   A. There is nothing written in there either, no, that is

24   right.

25   Q. Again, on the face of the document, we do not know at

Page 5697

1   what time the alleged search and seizure took place?

2   A. With regard to the time, you can find that in my report

3   about the search, when it started and when it was over.

4   Q. Again on the front page, moving up to the top line, we

5   see three numbers, 1021, 1874 and 1707. That is where

6   the police officers should be identified, correct?

7   A. 1021, 1874 and 1707, those are the service numbers

8   assigned by the Vienna police department to the officers

9   in question and those officers were involved in the

10   search.

11   Q. But nowhere in this document is there a name linked to

12   these numbers, is there?

13   A. That is right.

14   Q. So again on the face of the document we do not know who

15   conducted the search, do we?

16   A. On the face of the document, no, there is no reference

17   to the names.

18   Q. Turning to the second page of your record, I am looking

19   at where you filled in the allegedly seized items. You

20   see there are 51 unmarked cassettes, video cassettes,

21   correct?

22   A. That is right.

23   Q. And there is a total of 12 unmarked folders or binders;

24   is that correct?

25   A. That is right as well.

Page 5698

1   Q. We have seen so far a number of errors in this record

2   that you signed. Did you read it before you signed it?

3   A. The record was drawn up by me, and filled in in part by

4   me.

5   Q. So you did read it before you signed it?

6   A. What I added I certainly reread.

7   Q. So you are saying you did not read it in its entirety

8   before you signed it?

9   A. If I had read it in its entirety, then certainly there

10   would be a different date indicated on the front page.

11   I checked to see whether the references were

12   appropriate, to see in connection with whom it was

13   issued and to see for what address it was issued.

14   Q. Let us move along to the second document on which your

15   signature appears, the report, the house search, which

16   is dated 18th March 1996. Where was the report, the

17   house search, prepared?

18   A. The search report was drawn up by me in my office, that

19   is office 322.

20   Q. At what time did you prepare that report?

21   A. That was subsequent to the search, that is to say

22   subsequent to the delivery of the seized items to

23   Mr. Panzer.

24   Q. Do you know what time that was, approximately?

25   A. I assume that it was after 4.30 pm, or towards 4.30,

Page 5699

1   that I began.

2   Q. So soon after you arrived at police headquarters?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. Did you prepare this report on the basis of the record?

5   A. On the basis of the record, but also on the basis of my

6   own notes.

7   Q. Did you also inspect the allegedly seized items when you

8   prepared this report?

9   A. No, I did not have any further look at them.

10   Q. With the assistance of the usher I would like to show a

11   copy of this report to the witness, marked for

12   identification. (Handed).

13   THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as D56/1.

14   MR. O'SULLIVAN: You are looking at the English translation

15   on the first page, and the last two pages are in the

16   German language. Do you recognise this document?

17   A. The second and third pages, yes, I recognise them.

18   Q. Those are the ones dated March 18th, 1996?

19   A. That is right.

20   Q. That is your signature at the end?

21   A. That is my signature.

22   Q. This is the report, the house search, you prepared in

23   connection with the search and seizure at INDA-Bau?

24   A. That is right.

25   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your honours, I move to have this document

Page 5700

1   admitted into evidence.

2   MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

3   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.

4   MR. O'SULLIVAN: In this document you claim that the alleged

5   search and seizure of INDA-Bau took place on March 18th,

6   contrary to what is indicated in the record; is that

7   correct?

8   A. That is right.

9   Q. You make reference to video tapes in this report. They

10   had not been marked at this point, had they?

11   A. I take it that at the time this report was drawn up the

12   video tapes had not yet been marked.

13   Q. So you note 51 unmarked videos, the same number as in

14   the record; is that correct?

15   A. That is right.

16   Q. The documents, the folders and files to which you make

17   reference, they had not been marked at this point; is

18   that correct?

19   A. That is right.

20   Q. So there you note a total of 12 unmarked folders, the

21   same number of folders as appears in the record?

22   A. It is the same figure, if you add them up.

23   Q. A moment ago I made reference to the report, the

24   inventory prepared by Panzer and Bycek on April 22nd,

25   1996. That record was prepared in connection with the

Page 5701

1   alleged search of INDA-Bau. With the assistance of the

2   usher, I would like to show that document to the

3   witness, please.

4   THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as D57/1.

5   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Have you ever seen the last two pages of

6   that document, the ones signed by Bycek and Panzer?

7   A. No, I do not recognise these pages.

8   Q. You would agree with me, though, that it is the report

9   prepared by those two gentlemen in connection with the

10   alleged search and seizure at INDA-Bau?

11   A. I take it that Messrs Bycek and Panzer were referring to

12   that search, i.e. the search at INDA-Bau.

13   Q. You notice if you look at it, it is rather short, that

14   this document does not state on what date the alleged

15   search and seizure at INDA-Bau took place; is that

16   correct?

17   A. That is right.

18   Q. I suppose in fairness to your colleagues, based on your

19   documents, they could not be sure of the date, could

20   they?

21   A. I take it that the colleagues knew when the search

22   occurred because at the same time, they were carrying

23   out a search as well.

24   Q. This report makes reference to items that were allegedly

25   seized from INDA-Bau, does it not?

Page 5702

1   A. That is right.

2   Q. And this report makes reference to 12 files which for

3   the first time in any document associated with INDA-Bau

4   indicates that they have been identified as I/1 to I/12;

5   is that correct?

6   A. I cannot comment on that, because I do not know more

7   about the case.

8   Q. You would agree it is the first document we have seen

9   together today that makes any type of identification of

10   the files; is that correct?

11   A. That is possible, but I cannot judge the matter because

12   I do not know more about the case.

13   Q. This report makes reference to 54 not 51 videos as your

14   previous documents state; is that not correct?

15   A. That is right.

16   Q. Based on documents you and I have looked at, for the

17   first time, those videos are given an identification,

18   I/13 to I/66; is that correct?

19   A. I cannot comment on that because I do not know more

20   about it, but I see that they have been numbered and

21   perhaps also marked.

22   Q. Contrary to what your documentation showed?

23   A. That is right.

24   Q. So let us back up for a second and have a look at what

25   you have said about INDA-Bau. You have told us that the

Page 5703

1   allegedly seized items left the premises unmarked,

2   correct?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. Certain things were put into a cardboard box that was

5   not marked?

6   A. That is right.

7   Q. The cardboard box was not sealed?

8   A. That is right.

9   Q. The flaps on top of the box may or may not have been

10   shut; is that correct?

11   MR. NIEMANN: Your honours, do we have to go through all of

12   this again?

13   MR. O'SULLIVAN: I am just summarising, your honours. I am

14   almost through.

15   MR. NIEMANN: I am sure such a summary can be left for final

16   addresses or at some time when the documents are sought

17   to be admitted, your honours, but is it necessary to

18   summarise it again through the witness?

19   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have about five minutes, any way

20   you wish to present your case.

21   MR. O'SULLIVAN: We have also seen the date on the record

22   does not correspond to the date you say the search at

23   INDA-Bau took place, correct?

24   A. That is right.

25   Q. The time is not indicated in the record?

Page 5704

1   A. The time was not indicated in the record, no.

2   Q. Based on the record, we do not know the identity of the

3   police officers who allegedly did the search and

4   seizure?

5   MR. NIEMANN: I object to that, your Honour, because it is

6   not strictly correct. The witness has attested to the

7   fact that the identification numbers of the police

8   officers were put on to the report and has taken us to

9   them. That is a means by which identification can be

10   made of the officers and I object to this question, it

11   is not correctly put to the witness.

12   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a question the witness can answer

13   from his own knowledge.

14   MR. O'SULLIVAN: The question was; based on the record, you

15   had no way of knowing the identity of the police

16   officers who allegedly conducted the search and seizure

17   alter INDA-Bau?

18   A. That is not true, because the service numbers are there

19   in the record and you can see who is behind, as it were,

20   those numbers.

21   Q. In looking at these three documents we have just gone

22   through, the record and the two reports, the allegedly

23   seized items from INDA-Bau may not be the ones that

24   showed up at police headquarters that day; is that

25   right?

Page 5705

1   A. That is not true.

2   Q. We have gone from 51 to 54 videos, correct?

3   A. That is right.

4   Q. That is a discrepancy of three, correct?

5   A. That is right.

6   Q. One possibility is that three new videos were added to

7   the original 51; you would accept that possibility,

8   would you not?

9   A. Everything is possible, but I have a tough time

10   imagining that.

11   Q. Another possibility is that we are dealing with 54

12   different videos from the ones that came from INDA-Bau.

13   A. That is not right.

14   Q. They were not marked, the container was not marked. It

15   was not sealed. You accept that possibility, do you

16   not?

17   A. I can rule out that possibility.

18   Q. In fact, the cardboard box which left INDA-Bau may not

19   be the same one that arrived at police headquarters,

20   because it was not marked either?

21   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did say it was in his custody until

22   he brought it to police headquarters.

23   MR. O'SULLIVAN: We know for sure that the number of videos

24   inside the box changed, do we not, between the time --

25   A. That is right.

Page 5706

1   Q. Maybe your colleagues were looking through a different

2   cardboard box.

3   A. I have a tough time imagining that.

4   Q. If the video tapes changed, perhaps the documents

5   changed, too, between the time you brought it and the

6   time your colleagues examined it?

7   JUDGE JAN: Why do you not leave that for the argument stage

8   instead of putting it to the witness.

9   MR. O'SULLIVAN: One final question on this point. Earlier

10   we looked at Article 145 of the code together. That

11   article clearly states that items should be sealed

12   before leaving the premises and that was not done here,

13   was it?

14   A. These objects are sealed at the request of the person

15   concerned, but no such request had been made.

16   Q. I am referring to paragraph 3 of Article 145, which says

17   if a proper inventory cannot be done, it should be

18   sealed, correct?

19   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not do that because it was not

20   requested. That is what he just told us.

21   MR. O'SULLIVAN: I have one final question for today, your

22   Honour. You say you saw the folders in front of you

23   that you looked through earlier on 1st August 1997. You

24   saw them on 1st August 1997?

25   A. That is right.

Page 5707

1   Q. Is that when you practiced putting them in the three

2   neat piles?

3   A. No.

4   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Shall we stop there for today, perhaps?

5   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you wish to continue tomorrow

6   afternoon your cross-examination?

7   MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

8   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

9   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, before we leave I have a request on

10   behalf of my client. As the court is well aware,

11   Mr. Delic has a bad back and he is hurting quite a bit

12   today. Since it does not appear he is going to be

13   directly affected by the continued testimony of this

14   witness and the next witness, he would ask the Trial

15   Chamber's permission to be excused for coming tomorrow

16   and Thursday.

17   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he could be excused, since you

18   are still here representing him.

19   MR. MORAN: Your Honour, on behalf of my client, thank you

20   very much.

21   MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think Mr. Landzo is in the same

22   position other than the back pain. It does not affect

23   him and he has other work he would like to be able to

24   do, if that is all right.

25   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can be excused. He is in very good

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1   company.

2   MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you very much.

3   JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise until

4   tomorrow at 2.30 pm.

5   (5.30 pm)

6   (Court adjourned until 2.30 pm the following day)