1 Wednesday, 13th August 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
4 Could we have the witness?
5 (Witness entered court)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still
7 under his oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Grubac, may I remind you you are still
9 under oath.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the appearances, please.
11 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann and
12 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and
13 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Appearances for the Defence.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning your Honours, my name is Edina
16 Residovic, and I appear for Mr. Zejnil Delalic along with
17 Professor Eugene O'Sullivan, professor from Canada.
18 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours my name is Olujic and
19 I appear on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, I come from
20 Croatia. My colleague with me in the courtroom is Niko
21 Duric, attorney from Croatia.
22 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih
23 Karabdic and I appear for Mr. Hazim Delic. With me in
24 the team is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney from Houston
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman
2 and I appear along with my co-counsel Cynthia McMurray
3 on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, I think you are still
5 cross-examining. You may proceed with your
7 Dr. Petko Grubac (continued)
8 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)
9 Q. Good morning, your Honours, good morning, Mr. Grubac. We
10 discussed yesterday about your testimony in this Trial
11 Chamber. I would now like to ask you some other
12 questions regarding the facts you have testified to, or
13 which I feel you are aware of as an eyewitness of the
14 events. I think that today we also have to bear in mind
15 the warnings of the court in connection with the
16 translation of the questions and answers.
17 Mr. Grubac, in the course of your direct
18 examination you said that while you were working in
19 building 22 at the beginning, that you wrote down in a
20 notebook, as you had used to do in your professional
21 career, some diagnoses of the patients who were in your
22 infirmary. You also said that you did not write down
23 the real diagnosis, but a mild one. Did I understand
24 you well?
25 A. I am afraid these earphones are not working properly, so
1 I will not be able hear the translation. If somebody
2 would be kind enough to change these earphones for me,
3 please. (Pause) I can hear you. At the beginning we
4 did record the proper diagnoses, but later on we felt
5 that it might not be a good idea to keep such a record
6 of the actual diagnosis because this could have some
7 adverse effects on us, so we stopped doing it, and
8 eventually we stopped keeping any kind of records.
9 Q. You also said, Mr. Grubac, that Pero Mrkajic had died in
10 the infirmary. Is it true, as your colleague said, that
11 at the time you said and recorded in the book that he
12 died from diabetes for the reasons that you have now
13 given us?
14 A. Did (redacted) say that he put this down or that I had put
15 it down?
16 Q. (redacted) said that asked for the cause of death, he said
17 diabetes. My question is, did you put that diagnosis
18 down in the notebook?
19 A. I do not agree at all with (redacted) that Pero
20 Mrkajic died from diabetes. My opinion differs.
21 Q. Maybe there is a misunderstanding. I know what you said
22 regarding the causes of death of Pero Mrkajic, but
23 because of the circumstances you were in and because of
24 the fear you felt you put down a milder diagnosis. Is
25 it possible that in view of all this you put in the
1 notebook as the cause of death of Pero Mrkajic his
3 A. You are saying "put down"? I think that is
4 impersonally -- can I answer whether I wrote down this
5 diagnosis? I think I did not put down that diagnosis,
6 in fact, I think I did not write anything regarding the
7 death of Mrkajic.
8 Q. Since you noted down the milder injuries in the
9 notebook, would it be right to say that without any
10 explanation from you anybody who would look through that
11 notebook would not be aware of all the things that you
12 have been telling us here in this Trial Chamber?
13 A. They would not know for two reasons. First, because
14 after a certain period of time we put down milder
15 diagnoses, and the second reason being that after some
16 time we did not record anything in the book.
17 Q. If I understood you well, in answer to a question from
18 the Prosecution you said that you went to building 6 on
19 several occasions, that sometimes you were escorted by
20 guards and at other times you went on your own when
21 being asked to go there by prisoners. You also said
22 that the treatment Hazim Delic gave you was correct, as
23 well as Pavo Mucic's attitude towards you; whenever you
24 met him he would say hello, ask you how you were and so
25 on. Have I understood and interpreted well this part of
1 your testimony?
2 A. Yes, you have, quite well, quite correctly.
3 Q. Is it true, Mr. Grubac, that during your stay in building
4 22, you were not personally mistreated, physically or in
5 any other way abused? Of course, I know that you were
6 suffering as a man held captive, whose freedom of
7 movement was restricted. My question is: was any kind
8 of force resorted to in treatment towards you?
9 A. Apart from the fact that I was in a camp, that I was
10 hungry, that I did not have water, that I was living
11 under inhumane conditions, no physical force was used
12 against me, that is true.
13 Q. No special stricter or harder sanctions were enforced
14 against you because of something you said or did, apart
15 from what we have already noted?
16 A. I did my best not to say or do anything that could
17 provoke the reaction of those people.
18 Q. Thank you. You also said that you were visited by a
19 team of Television Sarajevo, is that true?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. At the time, you were interviewed by journalists of
22 television Sarajevo, Ms. Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko
23 Maric; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Let us be more precise, you were interviewed by?
1 Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko Maric was the cameraman?
2 A. Possibly, yes.
3 Q. As you stated, before talking to you Zvonko Maric filmed
4 the interior of building 22?
5 A. Yes, he filmed the interior of building 22.
6 Q. After that in front of the entrance to building number
7 22 you and your colleague were interviewed by journalist
8 Jadranka Milosevic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you recall, it was you who were the first to be
12 A. Possibly so.
13 Q. After that, your colleague (redacted) was the one to
14 answer questions?
15 A. Possibly.
16 Q. When the journalist, Ms. Jadranka Milosevic, was about
17 to terminate the interview, you asked if you could say
18 something in addition to what you had already said in
19 answer to her questions?
20 A. I do not remember that.
21 Q. After talking to you, Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko
22 Maric spoke to some of the prisoners, (redacted) and
24 A. Those are prisoners who were not in building 22.
25 Q. Yes, but they were prisoners that you knew were in the
1 prison, and after the interview with you they were also
3 A. I do not know, they may have spoken to them before us or
4 after us. I do not know which building they were in.
5 I just know that they were not in building 22.
6 Q. In that case let me put a direct question to you. Did
7 you watch when, not far from you, in the area in the
8 direction of number 9, the journalists spoke to(redacted)
10 A. I do not recall them being in the vicinity. It is
11 possible, but I really do not recall that. I just know
12 that those men were not in building 22 and I do not
13 remember that they had this interview on the platform in
14 front of the building, but it is possible.
15 Q. In view of this answer, you cannot testify to the
16 contents of the conversation the journalists had with
17 these prisoners?
18 A. I could not.
19 Q. Could you tell us when this interview was conducted?
20 A. You heard that when the Prosecution asked me when it
21 happened, my answer was that it is difficult for me to
22 situate in time that interview and visit of the TV team,
23 but I think it was in August after I was released from
24 the camp, but I am not quite sure about it.
25 Q. I would now suggest that we view this TV story. It is
1 Defence exhibit and it is a fragment of a tape that has
2 been admitted into evidence already, but before that,
3 since a man appears in this feature who has asked for
4 protective measures, that we have a closed session while
5 we view this tape so as not to reveal the identity of
6 that witness. Will you please show us segment 2 from
7 exhibit D42. I apologise, I am being told it may be
8 D45, but I think the technical services have the tape
9 with the interview with the journalists, so if I am
10 wrong in citing the number of the exhibit, I apologise,
11 this can be verified.
12 (Closed session)
13 (Public session)
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Dr. Grubac, having seen this story, may
15 I ask you, is that the interview that you granted to the
16 journalists of TV Sarajevo?
17 A. Yes, it is and I can now confirm that the interview took
18 place in August after we were released from the Celebici
19 camp, something I could not say with certainty before,
20 and now I can say that on the basis of the clothes I was
21 wearing and the actual text of my statement.
22 Q. And you can confirm that at the end of the interview,
23 when the journalist thought it was over, you wanted to
24 make a clarification and you did so.
25 A. Obviously I wanted to say that we, too, were prisoners
1 until only a few days ago and that we had now been
2 released, we were in town and that we come to the camp
3 from town.
4 Q. And because you were saying that then, you said that you
5 were released three weeks ago, so the interview must
6 have been somewhere in the middle of August or the
7 second half of August?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Mr. Grubac, in the course of the examination-in-chief,
10 you said that before this interview you were taken to
11 the command building where you met Mr. Delalic and
12 Mr. Mucic?
13 A. No, after the interview we went to the command
14 building. That is what I said to the Prosecution and
15 that is the truth.
16 Q. So as you stated here, you met Mr. Delalic in front of
17 the building?
18 A. In front of the building and later on in the building
19 after the interview.
20 Q. And you did not see there any other people whom you
22 A. I do not know what you mean when you say other people.
23 Q. Except for the journalists, Mucic, Delalic, yourself and
24 (redacted) no one else you knew was there?
25 A. I do not recall that there were any people that I knew,
1 except for those.
2 Q. Dr. Grubac, if somebody were to claim that before this
3 interview you were in the command building and that you
4 spoke there with others and that there were other
5 acquaintances of yours in there, then that person would
6 not be telling the truth?
7 A. I would not put it that way.
8 MR. TURONE: May I object, please, to this way of putting a
9 question, assuming that other people, without saying
10 whom, is not telling the truth on something. I do not
11 think this is a proper way to ask a question of the
12 witness, your Honour.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Dr. Grubac, are you sure that you did not go
14 to the command building before the interview and sit
15 there and have a drink there? Are you quite sure of
16 that, that you did not go to the command building before
17 the interview?
18 A. I do not remember going. I will give you the same
20 Q. If (redacted) were to say that Mr. Delalic's brother was
21 there, then you would say that that is not correct?
22 A. I would not say that, because I cannot tell with
23 absolutely precision who else was there apart from those
24 people that I have named. There may have been some
25 others, but I do not remember, so I would not say that
1 (redacted) was not telling the truth.
2 Q. Let us go back for a moment to the same question in a
3 different way. Mr. Grubac, you were interrogated by the
4 Prosecution on 12th and 13th December 1995; is that so?
5 A. You mean here in the Tribunal?
6 Q. No, somewhere else, I do not know where.
7 A. Will you please repeat the question for me.
8 Q. Were you interviewed in December 1995 by Mr. Ole Hortemo
9 investigator of the OTP?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it true that you spoke a second time with the
12 investigator of the Tribunal, Ms. Sabine Manke and that
13 you also made a statement on that occasion on
14 12th November 1996?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. When you made your first statement, you signed a
17 certificate, a witness acknowledgment, saying that you
18 had made the interview of your own free will, that you
19 were aware that it may be used in legal proceedings
20 before the International Criminal Tribunal, and that you
21 stated everything to the best of your knowledge and
22 recollection; is that so?
23 A. Possibly.
24 Q. Is it true, Mr. Grubac, that in that statement you made
25 for the investigator over two days, you did not make any
1 mention of this interview, nor of the presence of
2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic at the interview?
3 A. I do not know, one would have to see the statements and
4 then see whether they contain this or not.
5 Q. If I were to show you a copy of that statement to
6 refresh your memory, then you would be able to answer
7 that question precisely.
8 A. I believe you. If it does not say that in the
9 statement, then I did not say it at the time, but that
10 does not mean to say that this did not happen.
11 Q. Is it true then that you referred to this interview for
12 the first time when questioned by Ms. Sabine Manke on
13 12th November 1996?
14 A. I did not compare my statements, so really I cannot tell
15 you whether this happened for the first time on that
16 particular date or some other, I just cannot tell you
18 Q. Is it true that you spoke about this incident and you
19 mentioned Mr. Delalic only because you were put a
20 question to that effect explicitly by Ms. Sabine Manke?
21 A. I do not know how Ms. Sabine could have known that
22 Delalic had spoken with me then or not. It is quite
23 possible that I just recalled the incident and told her
24 about it, without knowing how important all that is.
25 I am neither a judge nor an investigator, so I really do
1 not see why this is so important for the court. Maybe
2 on one occasion I did not mention something and I did on
3 another occasion.
4 Q. So you do not exclude the possibility that you spoke
5 about it because the investigator asked you about it?
6 A. That is not what I said.
7 Q. My question is: but you do not exclude that possibility?
8 A. I do not wish to answer hypothetical questions, but if
9 you want me to answer them hypothetically, I can, though
10 I think I am a witness and my answers should be very
12 Q. In the course of my cross-examination yesterday you
13 explained to me your relationship with Mr. Delalic and
14 you told us also that he did not change his attitude
15 towards you even later, and that you addressed him,
16 having a certain amount of trust in him, with the
17 request that he might assist you. I am referring to
18 September, so that you did not feel any fear of
19 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
20 A. That is not true, that is your assumption. I felt a
21 terrible fear, not only of Zejnil but of the whole
22 situation, and I was afraid of everyone. It would be
23 strange if I had not felt fear in view of all the things
24 that happened to me and it is not true that I thought
25 that his attitude had not changed. That is your
1 interpretation. That is not what I said. I think that
2 everybody's attitude changed, or perhaps this was an
3 attitude they had before and it was I who was wrong, so
4 I could not really tell which is true.
5 Q. I do not wish to engage in any polemics with you. The
6 transcript has registered your answers to my questions,
7 but let us continue.
8 At the time you were giving this interview, you
9 had already been released from prison?
10 A. Yes, I can say that only conditionally because the whole
11 of Konjic and the surrounding villages were a great big
12 camp for all Serbs, so you could see that my release
13 papers said that my freedom of movement was limited.
14 You cannot really call that freedom.
15 Q. You said that part of your answers in the interview were
16 not true because you were afraid of the consequences.
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. However, if Mr. Delalic was there, judging by what he had
19 already done for you up to then, you did not expect any
20 consequences to come from Mr. Delalic; is that not so?
21 A. No, it is not. If you want me to elaborate on this
22 answer, I can.
23 Q. No, it is not necessary. If, Mr. Grubac, the journalists
24 Jadranka Milosevic and Zvonko Maric were to say that
25 Mr. Delalic was not there at all, then they would not be
1 telling the truth according to you?
2 A. They would not be telling the truth and it would not be
3 for the first time. They spoke many untruths on TV
4 Sarajevo. They were well known reporters who told all
5 kinds of stories and that is why I remember their
6 names. Otherwise I would not have remembered them
7 because they are rather insignificant people, but I do
8 remember them precisely because they spoke a lot of
9 untruth and I would not trust them if they were to say
10 that now.
11 Q. But this interview with you was recorded fully, was it
13 A. I am not even sure of that.
14 Q. Very well, Mr. Grubac. After this interview, many Serbs
15 criticised you for speaking in quite positive terms
16 about the situation in the camp; is that true?
17 A. It is not. I think that the Serbs at that time were
18 unable to see this interview.
19 Q. Mr. Grubac, you certainly are aware of the fact that
20 Mr. Delalic had a lot of problems in Konjic for trying to
21 help you; do you know that?
22 A. I do not know how he helped me to have so many
23 problems. Coming from whom?
24 Q. From the authorities in Konjic?
25 A. I thought that he held the highest post in this
1 hierarchy of power in Konjic himself.
2 Q. You have testified in court that somewhere in mid
3 September you were in the house of Mr. Delalic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as far as I could understand, that visit was quite
6 friendly, and there was a lot of joking on both sides;
7 is that not so?
8 A. You know how Stalin would assemble his friends in the
10 Q. I do not know.
11 A. I will tell you.
12 Q. As you described to us yesterday, this was a friendly
13 talk, with joking on both sides, did I hear you well
15 A. Yes, there was some gallows humour inter alia.
16 Q. As you stated yesterday, that was the first time that
17 you learnt that Mr. Delalic was the commander of Tactical
18 Group Number 1?
19 A. Is this the full title or is there anything else?
20 Q. Commander of the First Tactical Group of the army of
22 A. Yes, that is true.
23 Q. And then you also learned that he was spending a lot of
24 time in the vicinity of Sarajevo on Igman where his seat
25 actually was?
1 A. What do you mean? How could I have found out that from
2 this one sentence which he addressed to me which was an
3 offer for me to go to the hospital on Igman? Possibly,
4 but how do you think I could have concluded that on that
5 basis? I did not come to that conclusion, but it is
7 Q. Did Mr. Delalic talk to you about what he was doing as
8 the commander of the tactical group in the theatre near
10 A. He did not introduce himself to me as the commander of
11 this tactical group, so I had no idea that was what he
12 was and I did not know what Mr. Zejnil Delalic was doing
13 exactly at the time. I thought, if you want me to tell,
14 he was considered to be a high officer of the Patriotic
16 Q. However, you did know that Zejnil Delalic was not on
17 good terms with the chief of MUP, Jasmin Guska, did you
19 A. I did not know that, but it is possible. Before Jasmin
20 Guska, this position was held by a certain Dr. Sejo
21 Hajduk, who was, so to speak, a much more liberal
22 person, and who was not as committed to the SDA as
23 Jasmin Guska was, so he was replaced, and a much more
24 radical person was installed in his stead, which was
25 Jasmin Guska. Sejo was a friend of Zejnil Delalic's,
1 and possibly on that basis, I do not know what other
2 basis could have been there, I do not know that their
3 relationship was not a correct one.
4 Q. Mr. Grubac, in the conversation you had with the
5 representative of the Prosecution in 1995, you as a man
6 who had lived in Konjic?
7 A. I am sorry, I did not hear the first part of your
9 Q. In your talk about the Prosecutor in December 1995, you
10 as a person who was familiar with the structures and the
11 personages in Konjic, sought to tell or tried to tell
12 the Prosecutor who certain persons were in Konjic at the
13 time. On page 10 of the Serbo-Croat translation of your
14 statement, the following reads, and please be so kind as
15 to confirm whether you indeed said so:
16 "In my opinion, during the conflict in Konjic, the
17 most influential and the most responsible were the
18 following persons: Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, chairman of
19 the SDA and of the war presidency; Jasmin Guska, chief
20 of the MUP and secretary of the SDA; Esad Ramic,
21 commander of the TO; Dinko Zebic, commander of the HVO,
22 Sefko Niksic, commander of police; Zvonko Zovko,
23 commander of a HVO unit; Midhat Pirkic, commander of a
24 Muslim brigade; Jasna Dzumhur, responsible for the
25 exchange of prisoners and the issuance of various
1 permits; Zejnil Delalic, commander of the tactical group
2 of the BH army."
3 Did you communicate in this way what was written
4 in your statement?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. In view of the fact that you were familiar with the
7 circumstances there and these facts, can you confirm
8 that at the time, Ivan Asinovic was the President of the
9 deputy commander of the HVO in Konjic?
10 A. That is correct, if his name is Ivan, I know him as
11 Ivica, but if that is his name, that is correct.
12 Q. And that Dr.agan Peric was the President of the HDZ,
13 President of the government or of the executive council
14 of the commune of Konjic?
15 A. You mean Dragomir Peric.
16 Q. Or Drago?
17 A. Yes, that is correct.
18 Q. That Omer Boric was for a time the commander of the TO
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. That Nedzo Stojanovic, known as Kiso, earlier the holder
22 of offices in the municipality of Konjic and while you
23 were still there, which is to say towards the end of
24 1992 and the beginning of 1993, vice-president of the
25 war presidency of the municipality of Konjic?
1 A. That is not true, or I do not know that that is so.
2 Kiso while I was in Konjic was not the vice-president of
3 the war presidency, or at least I was not aware of that.
4 Q. That Dragan Andric was the assistant commander of the
5 staff of the TO of Konjic?
6 A. Possibly, these are some precise particulars which
7 I could not exactly confirm but it is possible.
8 Q. Do you know what Zeljko Mlikota was?
9 A. Probably the commander of a HVO unit somewhere out
10 there, I am not sure. There were so many armies and so
11 many commanders, it was really hard to tell who belonged
12 to what.
13 Q. You also stated that in October 1995, the MUP arrested
14 you and your wife again?
15 A. Yes, on 4th October they took us to the MUP prison.
16 Q. And you stayed there until 24th December 1992?
17 A. Or 25th , yes, that is so.
18 Q. And you were helped then by Goran Blazovic, who used to
19 be a MUP Inspector before that and at that time he was a
20 member of the HVO; is that not so?
21 A. He then assumed this position of deputy commander,
22 deputy chief of the MUP. It is possible that before
23 that he had been the commander or the head of MUP, or an
24 inspector, sorry, I am not quite sure. It is possible.
25 Q. At that time some guards told you that Jasmin Guska had
1 arrested you because of the possibility of being
2 exchanged for the bodies of the mother and sister of
3 your colleague Sejo Buturovic who had been killed
4 somewhere in the area in the direction of Borci; is that
6 A. That was one of the variants we heard from the guards.
7 I do not know whether they were well informed. No one
8 of the officials talked to us about it, but that is true
9 that we were told that also.
10 Q. During your stay in prison you probably learned that
11 Mr. Delalic had left Konjic and gone abroad.
12 A. Yes, we learned that he had left Konjic but we did not
13 know to where he had returned at that time.
14 Q. In the prison and after you had left it, you probably
15 heard various rumours which were being bandied about in
16 Konjic at the time, claiming that Zejnil Delalic had
17 fled aboard a Chetnik helicopter and he had gone to the
18 Serb side?
19 A. I have not heard this variant, that he had aligned
20 himself with the Serbs. I heard various stories about
21 the actual way in which he had escaped from Konjic.
22 I heard the variant that he had gone across Serb held
23 territory, but not aboard a Chetnik helicopter and I did
24 not know that he was in Serb held territory.
25 Q. You also heard that he was being criticised for having
1 helped the Serbs and that they were saying that he was a
2 collaborator of the KOS?
3 A. I do not know how he helped the Serbs and I would like
4 to hear one single example of how someone helped the
5 Serbs in Konjic. I would be glad to hear that. I have
6 no knowledge of any such examples. You mean
7 Schindler List or something like that?
8 Q. I was not in Konjic myself, Mr. Grubac, I cannot discuss
9 the matter with you. I am asking you and please answer
10 to the best of your knowledge.
11 A. I believe that no one helped the Serbs at that time.
12 They were all seeking to destroy the Serbs in the
13 municipality of Konjic, and they almost succeeded.
14 Q. Do you know, Mr. Grubac, that the first aid of the UNHCI
15 only arrived in Konjic in the first half of August?
16 A. I am not aware of that, but it is of no consequence
17 because the Serbs were not given any assistance, and all
18 the money and the food they did have was looted from
19 them, so this is an immaterial factor, as far as the
20 Serbs were concerned. I did not get any -- I did not
21 know of it, and if I did know, it would have been to no
23 Q. If (redacted) were to confirm in court, before this
24 Tribunal, that a large quantity of flour was given to
25 the Serbs in Donje Selo, you are simply unaware of that
1 fact, is that so?
2 A. I have my opinion about (redacted). Let the court
3 appraise his statements. It is possible he said this
4 flour was distributed. I could not move, I could not go
5 to Donje Selo. My movement was restricted.
6 Q. In connection with the persons that we mentioned before,
7 you know that Djuro Kuljanin was the vice president of
8 the assembly of the municipality of Konjic?
9 A. Yes, I do, that is true.
10 Q. And you are aware of the fact that in the second half of
11 April he went to Borci?
12 A. I heard that. I could not confirm at what time exactly,
13 I know that he went to Borci.
14 Q. If your colleague (redacted) said that people who sought
15 to help the Serbs, of which there were not many, but
16 there were some, were considered to be fifth columnists
17 and suffered various consequences in an overall
18 atmosphere also on the part of the authorities in
19 Konjic, could you agree to such a statement?
20 A. No, I could not agree with such a statement, but I could
21 say that there were some individuals who did help some
22 individual Serbs, and assistance or help is a relative
23 term. I could not agree that this was on a larger scale
24 or any scale which was significant. I do not know of
25 any consequences of anyone having any consequences
1 because there were no associations nor any larger groups
2 helping the Serbs, apart from honourable individuals.
3 Q. And you believe that Mr. Delalic was among these
4 honourable exceptions?
5 A. I would believe that if you were to enumerate ten Serbs
6 or five Serbs whom he had helped. I have not heard that
7 he assisted the Serbs.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Mr. Grubac, I have no
9 further questions.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Mr. Olujic, your
12 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
13 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good morning, Dr. Grubac.
14 A. Good morning.
15 Q. You must be tired after two days of testimony both from
16 the examination-in-chief and the cross-examination, but
17 I hope we will get through this without any major
18 difficulties. Let me tell you straight away that I do
19 not intend to take too long, but I ask you, with regard
20 to the questions I put to you, to bear in mind the
21 technical aspects, so that everybody in the courtroom
22 can follow what we are saying and to avoid the
23 impression that we are conducting a dialogue for our own
24 benefit only.
25 Dr. Grubac, you said in your testimony when
1 questioned by my learned colleague that until the
2 horrors of war you were head of the clinic in Konjic, is
3 that correct, or head of the health centre, rather?
4 A. I was doctor of one of the departments of the health
5 centre, that is true.
6 Q. In view of your specialisation and post graduate
7 studies, did you engage in forensic psychiatry as well?
8 A. The Ministry of Justice of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 did give to me the title of permanent expert witness
10 attached to the courts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Which courts did you testify before as an expert, was
12 that in Sarajevo?
13 A. Most frequently in the court in Konjic and occasionally
14 in Sarajevo as well.
15 Q. Did you provide expert opinions in other courts on the
16 territory of the former state?
17 A. I think I did not, I cannot recall.
18 Q. During the direct examination, you said that you were
19 replaced because of your ethnic background; is that
21 A. It is correct.
22 Q. Do you have any document about it?
23 A. I do not even have an ID card or any other document.
24 I am a man without documents, without property and
25 without a permanent residence.
1 Q. Where are you living now, doctor?
2 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour. There is no reason why
3 the witness should say where he lives now.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not see the problem. Why are you
5 frightened about where he lives?
6 MR. TURONE: There might be a general safety reason for which
7 the witness might not be willing to say where he lives
9 JUDGE JAN: You say this question should not be asked; why
10 do you suggest an answer? That is not on.
11 MR. TURONE: I simply objected so the witness should have the
12 opportunity of choosing.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it because he is a protected
15 MR. TURONE: No, your Honour.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was your reason for this?
17 MR. TURONE: It is the general policy of the Prosecution
18 objecting whenever the question to the witness is going
19 to deal with their real address in public.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution adopts a policy without
21 any regard for the rules of the court.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Might I be able to address the court, your
23 Honour, I might be able to assist?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know how useful your address
25 will be.
1 MR. NIEMANN: May I address, your Honour?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may, but I think it is very
3 awkward and impertinent.
4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, throughout the course of the Tadic
5 hearing, this question was raised a number of times and
6 the court ruled on a number of occasions that the
7 current address of the witness was not to be made public
8 and was not to be divulged. This was based on the fact
9 that the court had accepted the situation that existed
10 in the former Yugoslavia and that if counsel were
11 permitted to probe into current addresses, then when
12 these witnesses returned to the former Yugoslavia or to
13 wherever, because the position could apply anywhere in
14 the world, that these people could be subjected to
15 repercussions as a consequence of giving evidence.
16 The Trial Chamber was satisfied by this and had so
17 ordered. Your Honours, this Tribunal has absolutely no
18 power whatsoever to assist anybody in any part of the
19 world after they have given their evidence, no power.
20 It is because of that the only assistance that can be
21 given is assistance to witnesses when they are here and
22 that certain cautions need to be taken while here in
23 order to protect witnesses, because if it cannot happen
24 here, it cannot happen anywhere.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, I have heard you at length, I am
1 not sure you have any other things to add. You know
2 this court has rules for the protection of witnesses
3 even before they come to give evidence. You know that.
4 JUDGE JAN: But apart from that, the information can be kept
5 away from the public if the question is important
6 enough. He can ask for a closed session if it is
7 important for him.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me get at the root of this,
9 I regard as rudeness on the part of a Prosecution
10 policy, a private policy you made for the guidance of
11 your Prosecution you impose on the Trial Chamber without
12 regard to the rules enabling the Trial Chamber to
13 protect witnesses. All witnesses are entitled to
14 protection, and you give reasons why there should be a
15 greater protection other than that which the rules
17 You are now telling the Trial Chamber that every
18 witness which appears before the Trial Chamber is
19 entitled not to disclose his current address if there is
20 a reason for it.
21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, there exists already,
22 I understand, a ruling from this Chamber that the
23 current addresses of the witnesses need not be given in
24 terms of the handing over of their statements. This is
25 merely an extension of that ruling, in my submission.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For even witnesses who have not sought
3 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, and indeed --
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually those rules are not binding,
5 as far as I am concerned, especially when there is good
6 reason for telling me there is no need to disclose such
7 a residence, and in the first place, as a matter of
8 ordinary judicial ethics, when such questions are asked,
9 the first thing for any counsel is not necessary to
10 object to the question, but to point out that the
11 question might be unfair. Mr. Turone leaps up as if he
12 was being pursued by someone else and behaved as if
13 everything was at stake here. Your witness came before
14 this Trial Chamber without any pretence that he was
15 frightened of anything, and from what he has said, he
16 has no ID card, he has no papers, he has no residence.
17 It was very easy for the Trial Chamber to protect him.
18 He has made it clear that he had no residence, so I did
19 not see any reason why somebody should invoke a
20 protection policy which, as far as I am concerned, does
21 not exist, according to our rules. If you need
22 protection for a witness you have to apply for that
23 protection and give reasons for it. If any witness who
24 comes up to the witness chair, and at that stage invokes
25 the protection, let there be no way of determining
1 whether the protection was deserving or not and if that
2 is what any Trial Chamber has decided, the law is very
3 clear as to the bindingness of the rule of one Trial
4 Chamber against the other.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, in addition to those matters,
6 your Honour -- in view of what your Honour has said, we
7 would ask that there be a short adjournment so we can
8 consult the witness on this question alone. No other
9 issue will be raised with the witness and Mr. Turone will
10 not speak to the witness. I will have Ms. McHenry
11 speak to the witness to ascertain whether or not there
12 are security concerns. I then foreshadow, your Honour,
13 that I will file a general motion before the Chamber
14 that current names of addresses of all witnesses that
15 come before the Chamber may not be disclosed unless, of
16 course, special application is made by the Defence in
17 order to demonstrate that for some particular reason on
18 that particular occasion the address is required and
19 then we can deal with it on an individual basis.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not even see the need for the
21 application and I think from the earlier answers given
22 by the witness himself, that question itself is
23 irrelevant. He has no identity, nothing, and he can
24 proceed to any other question which he wanted. If you
25 have any proper reason for making an application, the
1 Trial Chamber will listen to it. Mr. Olujic, carry on
2 with another question.
3 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours.
4 Dr. Grubac, will you please answer my previous
5 question, or do you want me to repeat it?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, I have told you, he has given an
7 earlier answer indicating he has no identity or
8 residence. There is no way you can proceed with that
9 question. That is fairly clear.
10 MR. OLUJIC: Dr. Grubac, in the direct examination you said
11 that Defence had been organised in Bradina, did you not?
12 A. I said that this could be called defence only
13 conditionally, that it would be more correct to say that
14 these were village -- this was village guard duty,
15 protecting the village, the old people, the women and
16 children from the infiltration of any groups.
17 Q. How can you organise defence without military equipment?
18 A. I am not a military expert, I am a psychiatrist.
19 Q. Let us recall the period in 1995. Is it true that some
20 time in 1995 Mr. Zdravko Mucic called you up on the phone
21 and that you spoke to him on the phone?
22 A. It is true that he called me up, it may have been in
24 Q. How long did that conversation last?
25 A. Very brief, it was a very brief conversation.
1 Q. What did you discuss?
2 A. He called me up, I asked him where he was calling from
3 and why he was calling me. We asked each other what we
4 were doing. He told me that he was in Germany, that he
5 was having some problems, that he had been charged by
6 the Muslims and that he thought that the Serbs would
7 bring charges against him as well. That was more or
8 less the conversation. He also asked about (redacted) and
9 asked for his telephone number -- no, I am sorry, I do
10 not know whether he asked for his telephone number. He
11 just asked about him.
12 Q. Did you give him (redacted) telephone number?
13 A. I cannot remember.
14 Q. As a psychiatrist, doctor, after leaving the camp did
15 you assist your former colleague detainees?
16 A. You mean in Konjic or later on?
17 Q. Later on.
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Are you in touch with them now?
20 A. One might say that I am in touch with some of them.
21 Q. Have you listened to their terrible stories at length?
22 A. I know those stories even without them, but I have
23 listened to their stories.
24 Q. Is there some kind of an organised association of former
1 A. Yes, there is, of course.
2 Q. Are you a member of that association?
3 A. I am a member of that association.
4 Q. Are you assisting them in a professional way?
5 A. No, I have no such position because the association is a
6 non-governmental organisation and it is based some
7 distance away from where I am now living and it is not
8 possible anyway to organise any kind of aid of that
10 Q. Where is the organisation based?
11 A. In Belgrade.
12 Q. In the direct examination, doctor, you said that you had
13 lived in Konjic. Can you tell us what the share of
14 Serbs in Konjic was in 1991?
15 A. According to the 1991 census, I think 15 or 16 per cent.
16 Q. And the Croats?
17 A. 27 per cent.
18 Q. And Muslims?
19 A. Muslims, 52 per cent, but that is not all. There were
20 5 per cent Yugoslavs and 1 per cent others.
21 Q. Is it true what you said, talking to the Prosecution,
22 that you were replaced as a doctor; is that right,
23 because that is what it says, because as far as I know,
24 there is no position of a doctor, you need to have a
25 post, the name of the post.
1 A. I intervened and asked this to be corrected. Of course,
2 one cannot be dismissed as a doctor, one can only be
3 dismissed from the post of director and I think this was
4 an error and I think the correction was made.
5 Q. During your testimony you said that you were slapped at
6 the beginning of your detention, that is upon your
7 arrest; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, in the MUP building at Musala in Konjic, that is
10 Q. And after that you were never physically mistreated,
11 were you?
12 A. One might say so, but only relatively speaking.
13 Q. You also mentioned in your direct examination some
14 baseball bats. Do you know how many baseball clubs
15 there were in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992?
16 A. I had never heard of baseball being played in
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina at all. I do not even know how you
18 play the game.
19 Q. Do you know how long and heavy a baseball bat is?
20 A. Probably the prisoners in Celebici who suffered and were
21 in touch with Delic's baseball bat could answer that
22 question better than me. I am afraid I cannot give you
23 a precise answer.
24 Q. In the course of your direct examination you said that
25 Mr. Mucic took prisoners from the 3rd March school out of
1 fear that they should not be hit by enemy shell fire; is
2 that correct?
3 A. He took us from the 3rd March school saying that that
4 was the reason, yes.
5 Q. Do you know what happened to the school afterwards? Was
6 it hit by a shell, or what happened to it after the
8 A. I think the school was never hit because later I lived
9 near the school, less than 100 metres away.
10 Q. I would like to hear your impression regarding Mucic's
11 company; in other words did you feel quite safe in his
12 company? You could not expect him to start beating him
13 out of the blue just like that?
14 A. Of that, I was indeed quite sure.
15 Q. In spite of all the differences we have it is most
16 important that we ascertain the truth, so I am asking
17 you, in view of your detention in the Celebici camp, and
18 I can only but try to understand you, of course I cannot
19 fully sympathise because I have never been through it;
20 can it be said that in the Celebici camp there was a
21 proper sort of military order with the necessary
22 hierarchy and chain of command and everything that
23 implies in the camp?
24 A. I think there was some kind of order and that everything
25 functioned according to pre-agreed rules.
1 Q. Was there any raising of the flag and saluting the
2 flag in the morning in the camp?
3 A. In front of the command building where this would
4 normally take place, there was no such salute, as far as
5 I can recall.
6 Q. Was there an evening roll call?
7 A. I do not know, I was a prisoner. I was not an officer
8 there, so I do not know these things.
9 Q. You described hangar number 22 and who provided the
10 treatment, you and (redacted), among others. Did
11 Dr. Zrinko Brekalo, Dr. Mandic, Dr. Alen, medical
12 technician known as Ante, a medical technician whose
13 surname was Pekic, did they also come to that infirmary?
14 A. Not to the infirmary. I think that one of those doctors
15 did come to the command building once. Some technicians
16 did come to remove the plaster from Mrkajic's leg.
17 Q. Did they bring some medical equipment?
18 A. No, we had no medical equipment.
19 Q. Did they bring some medicines?
20 A. Perhaps somebody did bring some medicines, but not in
21 any significant quantity that I could remember, but
22 certainly they did not bring any equipment because we
23 did not have any.
24 Q. In addition to these people mentioned, did other doctors
25 come, too, like Dr. Stojanovic, medical technician Zivak,
1 medical technician Mihajlo?
2 A. No, I know these people you have mentioned,
3 Dr. Stojanovic, Mihajlo Magazin, they never came to the
4 infirmary while I was there, maybe later.
5 MR. OLUJIC: I think it is time for the break so perhaps we
6 should have our break now your Honour.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will continue after the break at
8 12.00 pm.
9 (11.30 am)
10 (A short break)
11 (12.00 pm)
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr. Olujic.
13 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours. Dr. Grubac, you have
14 come to The Hague together with your wife?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I suppose that you are accomodated together?
17 A. We are accomodated at the same hotel.
18 Q. Tell me, Dr. Grubac, when you were moved from the
19 3rd March school, was there any shelling of Konjic at
20 that time when you were transferred?
21 A. I did not understand your question.
22 Q. After you had been transferred from the 3rd March
23 school, was there any shelling of Konjic?
24 A. I do not know, I was in Celebici after that.
25 Q. And were there any injured people that you had to treat
1 for wounds inflicted by the shelling?
2 A. Yes, they brought two injured people from the sports
3 hall in Musala.
4 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that in
5 addition to the other injured they were also Mr. Miro
6 Golubovic, Jarko Mrkajic, called Zara; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. Tell me doctor, do you know who they were injured by?
9 A. Miro Golubovic or Golub was brought a bit later in
10 relation to the time when we came to the camp, he was in
11 building 22 for a hour or two hours, that was his first
12 visit, then they took him away after ten or fifteen
13 days, they brought him again to number 22 and he told us
14 how he had been tortured and inflicted pain in the camp.
15 Q. And Zara Mrkajic?
16 A. We saw him quite often, Zara, he would come from number
17 9 to take food and to take food back to the prisoners in
18 building number 9.
19 Q. During the examination-in-chief you said that you never
20 informed anyone about the health status of the patients,
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Did you perhaps inform Mr. Mucic about it?
24 A. He never enquired and we never informed him, he was not
25 interested in the health condition of the patients.
1 Q. Did you perhaps inform your Croatian colleagues or the
2 other doctors who came?
3 A. No one came to building number 22 to enquire about the
4 health of the patients.
5 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that until
6 1990 you had been a member of the League of Communists
7 and after 1990, you became a member of the Movement for
8 Yugoslavia, is that so?
9 A. That is not so. I will give you a precise answer. From
10 1990 and in 1991, we tried to form a group of Muslims,
11 Croats and Serbs for this movement, but we did not
12 succeed so we did not register our group nor did we form
13 that movement.
14 Q. How come you did not succeed to do that in a mixed
15 ethnic community?
16 A. People were more interested in the nationalist
17 ethnically based parties than in this sort of a group or
19 Q. You said in your statement that the release papers which
20 you received were signed in your case by Mr. Zejnil
21 Delalic. Do you know of any other releases that took
22 place in August, for instance, two of your
23 brothers-in-law who were also in the camp?
24 A. No, my brothers-in-law were not released at all, they
25 were transferred to the Musala building in Konjic and
1 after a certain period of time one of them was released
2 and the other one was exchanged to Trnovo.
3 Q. Who signed their release papers?
4 A. I do not know what you mean by theirs, because one of
5 them was not released at all. I do not know whether
6 there are any signatures on the other.
7 Q. Was it Mr. Zdravko Mucic that released the prisoners as
8 far as you know?
9 A. I witnessed him releasing Golubovic precisely from
10 building number 22 and taking him away.
11 Q. Where?
12 A. I believe he took him home when he released him from the
13 camp. Possibly he took him elsewhere, but he certainly
14 released him from the camp, I can say that with
16 Q. During the examination-in-chief, you said that when you
17 were asked what you were by nationality, you said that
18 you were a Serb and a Montenegran, is that so?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How can that be? I fail to perceive how you can be
22 A. Montenegrans consider that Montenegrans are Serbs.
23 Until recently I was Yugoslav and I found it much easier
24 now to say I am a Serb Montenegran.
25 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, doctor, I am through. Thank you,
1 your Honours.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
4 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
6 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN
7 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I represent Hazim Delic. I am
10 going to ask you a few questions about some of the
11 things you testified about yesterday and some other
12 things about the camp. If you do not understand one of
13 my questions, will you stop me and ask me to rephrase it
14 or do whatever it takes so you understand what I am
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. You will do that for me, sir?
18 A. I will, sir.
19 Q. And also if you just listen to the question that I ask
20 and just answer the question that is posed to you, this
21 will go a whole lot easier and a whole lot quicker, and
22 we will get you home, wherever home is, a whole lot
23 quicker. Will you do that for me, doctor?
24 A. Thank you, yes.
25 Q. By the way, doctor, just so I am straight in my own
1 mind, in my country it is traditional to call physicians
2 by their title doctor and I notice that some of the
3 lawyers from the former Yugoslavia were calling you Mr.
4 Which is correct and which do you prefer?
5 A. It is all the same to me. Many things do not make much
6 of a difference to me any more.
7 Q. I can understand that doctor. You worked probably a lot
8 harder for your doctor's degree than I did for mine, so
9 why don't I call you doctor? Would that be fair?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The first thing I am going to ask you, and this goes
12 back to your initial arrest and your initial detention,
13 you were taken to the MUP headquarters in Konjic; is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. And it was at the MUP headquarters at Konjic where all
17 your property was taken from you.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As far as you know, there was not anybody from the camp
20 at Celebici that was there involved in the taking of
21 your property, was there?
22 A. That is right.
23 Q. Thank you very much on that, doctor. I wanted to make
24 sure I was clear in my mind on that. I would like to
25 talk to you now a little bit about the conditions in the
1 infirmary in building 22 while you were there, and some
2 of the things I think you may have already talked about
3 and we will go over those in a little bit of detail and
4 some of the other things I do not think anybody has
5 talked about. Let us start off with, like I say, some
6 of the general living conditions there. Let us start
7 off with the food that was served to the patients in
8 building 22 and how it was served. Everybody in
9 building 22 had their own plate and fork, did they not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No? How was the food served to the patients in building
13 A. We would bring the food in a soldier's pot.
14 Q. Were there plates for the individual patients to eat
16 A. No, not all the patients had a plate. In fact we had no
17 plates at all, but we had these vessels of army issue,
18 containers, not one to each patient. We all had five or
19 six of them and we all used these five or six; that is
20 to say not every patient had one of those containers for
22 Q. Were there not a couple of great big large plates of
23 some kind that you used to serve bread on?
24 A. No, there were no plates of that kind.
25 Q. Okay. Let us talk about some of the other conditions.
1 How about showers? Showers were available for the
2 patients in the infirmary, were they not?
3 A. No.
4 Q. So the patients were not taken to one of the other
5 buildings and given a chance to shower and use the
7 A. No, we used the toilet in the other building, in the
8 command building, and during my stay over a period of
9 two months we only had a chance to take one shower, only
10 on one occasion and that, of course, only referred to
11 the patients who were mobile and the two of us doctors.
12 Q. Let me go on to something else. Let us talk about the
13 death of Pero Mrkajic, okay? You testified, I believe,
14 on direct examination that at the time of his death,
15 Mr. Delic brought his family in to let them see the body
16 and to say goodbye to their relative; do you recall
17 testifying to that?
18 A. Yes, he brought not the whole family but two of his sons
19 who were also imprisoned in the camp, Jarko Mrkajic and
20 Desimir Mrkajic.
21 Q. He did more than that, did he not? For instance, he got
22 some candles, do you recall that?
23 A. I really do not recall that. It is possible.
24 Q. Okay. Let me jump a little bit ahead and I think we may
25 jump back to something also, but while I am thinking
1 about it. After your release from Celebici Mr. Delic
2 took you to your former apartment, did he not?
3 A. I apologise, will you please repeat the question?
4 Q. Sure. After you were released someone else was living
5 in the apartment in Konjic that used to be your
6 apartment, were they not?
7 A. Yes, they were.
8 Q. But all of your property was still in your apartment,
9 all your furniture and your clothing and all of those
10 things will be left there, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did not Mr. Delic after your release take you to your
13 apartment so that you could retrieve some of your
14 property, whatever you wanted?
15 A. Yes, just to get some things.
16 Q. Do you recall whether or not the person that was living
17 in that apartment refused Mr. Delic entry?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that Mr. Delic essentially forced his way in so that
20 you could recover what of your property you wanted to
22 A. That is true.
23 Q. When you were living at your father-in-law's apartment
24 Mr. Delic brought you some flour and oil and detergents
25 and shampoo, and things like that, did he not?
1 A. Yes, my father-in-law, yes, and he did bring me a
2 package with food, that is correct.
3 Q. While he was there you mentioned to him that your
4 children were sick and needed some medication, did you
6 A. It is possible, but I really do not remember.
7 Q. Okay. Perhaps do you recall writing a prescription for
8 some medicine at your father-in-law's house and having
9 Mr. Delic go to the -- go some place to get the
10 medication that you requested?
11 A. That is possible and I believe he would have done it,
12 but I really cannot recall that.
13 Q. In fact, Mr. Delic was the source of most of the
14 medication that you had in the infirmary while you were
15 there; is that not right?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am about set to mention a name,
18 and it is the name of a protected witness that has been
19 mentioned in open court. Do you want to go into private
20 session so I can tell this person what the name is, and
21 use the acronym? How do you want me to proceed, your
22 Honour? Whatever you want.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will maintain the protection if it
24 is a protected witness.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour then perchance we should go into
1 private session so I can identify this person. It will
2 be 30 seconds.
3 (In closed session)
9 (In public session)
10 MR. MORAN: In fact, you got some medicines from what,
11 Caritas, did you not, catholic charities?
12 A. Possibly, I do not know from whence the medicaments
13 came, possibly.
14 Q. If Witness P said that, you would not disagree with him,
15 would you?
16 A. I would agree, I would not deny it.
17 Q. You and the other medical people in the infirmary to get
18 medicines on a regular basis would give a list to
19 Mr. Delic, and then he would go wherever he went to try
20 and get the medicines for you, right?
21 A. Yes, in the beginning that was the way it was, right.
22 Q. You testified, and frankly Witness P testified also,
23 that a lot of the time you did not get everything you
24 asked for, but one of the things that Witness P said,
25 that most of the things you got were analgesics and
1 antibiotics and because there were a lot of elderly
2 people, you got diuretics. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes, that is true.
4 Q. Doctor, are you familiar with the availability of
5 medicines and medical equipment in the Konjic area
6 generally, in the summer of 1992?
7 A. I would separate the medicaments and medical supplies.
8 I am not quite sure what you mean by medical
9 equipment -- I mean by medical equipment apparatus as in
10 such things -- perhaps you mean also bandages. I would
11 like to separate these two.
12 Q. By equipment I mean things that are more permanent
13 things, everything from your stethoscope to a CAT scan
14 machine, things that you do not use up.
15 A. We had no intention and we knew that we would not be
16 able to get such instruments and such equipment. What
17 could be done is for our patients to be taken to a
18 hospital or to a medical establishment and there use
19 such equipment, but that was not done, and we never
20 expected anybody to install a scanner or a X-ray machine
21 in Celebici, but we did expect it would be possible for
22 our patients to go to the health centre in the city and
23 have such examinations performed there, but it did not
25 Q. Doctor, what I was asking you about was the availability
1 of these kinds of things, and whether you are familiar
2 with the availability of medical supplies, medicines,
3 bandages, consumable items and of permanent equipment in
4 the Konjic area in the summer of 1992, and if you are
5 not familiar with it, that is just fine. If you do not
6 know, you do not know.
7 A. I am quite familiar with the situation, I was the
8 manager of this establishment for a while. I know how
9 equipped it was. I know full well what equipment they
10 had. It is quite possible that at the time there was a
11 shortage of some medicaments or of some other material.
12 Q. Do you know how the demands on the hospital in Konjic at
13 the time you were there, whether it was full of sick
14 people and wounded people much more than it was designed
15 for, or whether the patient load was within what would
16 be considered normal? If you do, you do, if you do not,
17 you do not. If you are not familiar with it, that is
19 A. I think that that could not have been the reason for
20 these injured people not to be given the same
21 medicaments and the same material which they needed,
22 like those people who were treated in the health
23 centre. I think they were discriminated against in that
24 respect and that the reason was not the shortage but the
25 absence of a will to do so.
1 Q. That is fine. The question I asked was, are you
2 familiar with the situation. Are you familiar with the
3 situation? Remember, you were in the camp, you may not
4 know what was going on there.
5 A. Although they had told us they would treat us according
6 to the Geneva Convention, we were in no position to
7 communicate with the doctors and other staff in the
8 health centre, so that we had no way to come by such
9 information. We did not go there for medicaments. We
10 did not consult with the physicians there because we
11 were not permitted to do so, so we did not know.
12 Q. Let us talk about this ledger or log book you kept for
13 medical records. I know you do not have access to it
14 any more, and in fact, at some point within a few weeks
15 after you were released you stopped going to Celebici
16 and started go to another facility, the sports hall, is
17 that not right, so you would have lost track of what
18 occurred with this ledger?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If Witness P says that one of the reasons that that book
21 is not available is that the people in the infirmary
22 were given rations of tobacco but no cigarette paper and
23 used that ledger for cigarette rolling paper, you would
24 not disagree with that, would you?
25 A. I would not, although I would not exactly advocate the
1 truthfulness of that claim.
2 Q. If you would like I will read it directly from the
3 transcript to you.
4 A. I do not doubt that he said so, and I say I would not
5 deny it, but I would not exactly subscribe to that claim
7 Q. Simo Jovanovic; he was one of the injured people in the
8 camp, is that not right?
9 A. I am sorry, I did not hear you well.
10 Q. Simo Jovanovic; he was one of the injured people in the
11 camp that you treated.
12 A. Treated conditionally speaking, yes.
13 Q. He had been held by the MUP for three weeks in Konjic,
14 had he not?
15 A. Yes, he had.
16 Q. While he was there he was beaten and mistreated by a man
17 named Jasmin Guska; is that right?
18 A. That is what I was told.
19 Q. That is what you believe to be correct?
20 A. I have no reason not to believe it.
21 Q. Fair enough, doctor. A couple of other things and then
22 I think we will be done. I am not trying to jump
23 around, but I am going to jump around a little bit.
24 I am not trying to confuse you.
25 Let us talk about the village of Bradina for just
1 a couple of seconds. In Bradina, that was a major
2 communications link between Sarajevo and the rest of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was it not?
4 A. Bradina had nothing to do with the blockade of Sarajevo,
5 which was at the time under total blockade. But
6 theoretically, yes, Bradina is along the main
7 communication between Sarajevo and Mostar, but Sarajevo
8 at the time was under blockade for other reasons.
9 Bradina was not of any major significance at the time.
10 Q. The main road between Sarajevo and Mostar and the main
11 railroad go right through the middle of Bradina, do they
13 A. The railroad going from Pluzine to Sarajevo does pass
14 through Bradina, yes.
15 Q. The residents of Bradina, for whatever reason, set up
16 roadblocks inside the city to control who went through
17 the village on that main road, did they not?
18 A. Yes, along the main road, but not the railroad, correct.
19 Q. Okay. Those people that set up those roadblocks were
20 not officials or authorised to do that by the government
21 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they?
22 A. On one side of the tunnel to the south in the direction
23 of Konjic, the Serbs had put up the roadblock, and at
24 the other end it was the Muslims and the Croats who had
25 put up the roadblock. There were two roadblocks, so it
1 was not possible to pass either.
2 Q. Let us talk about the roadblock that was set up by the
3 Serbs. Were they authorised to set up that roadblock by
4 the regularly constituted government of
6 A. I do not know if they were authorised and I do not
7 really know what you mean by a blockade, because you
8 could pass through those checkpoints probably if you had
9 some papers. They were not bunkers or any other kind of
10 barricade, they were just checkpoints at which
11 passengers were checked. The road was not completely
12 blocked, that is what I am saying. They were just
13 checkpoints there.
14 Q. Let me go on to something else, doctor. If the usher
15 could show the witness Prosecution exhibit number 1,
16 which is the photo album. We will go through a couple
17 of things with it. (Handed).
18 Doctor, just so you know what this is, this is an
19 exhibit prepared by the Dutch police at the request of
20 the Office of the Prosecutor and it includes pictures
21 and diagrams of the Celebici camp. As I understand it,
22 these pictures and diagrams were made in October of last
23 year, so there may be some changes, it may not be
24 exactly like you recall it. It was about four years
25 after you left the camp.
1 One of the things you testified to was that in
2 building 22 there were some windows across the back and
3 they were very high and hard to see through; do you
4 recall testifying that? You had to get up on something
5 to see through them.
6 A. I apologise, I have not been able to hear what you said
7 up to now because my earphones have only just come back
8 on again. I am sorry, I do apologise, but I really
9 could not hear you.
10 Q. That is fine, doctor. If you have any problem hearing,
11 just let me know and we will go over it. Sometimes we
12 have technical problems. In this age of computers,
13 sometimes they do not work.
14 This blue book in front of you, and we will go
15 through it in a second, but just so you know what it is,
16 it is a series of pictures and diagrams from the
17 Celebici camp. It was prepared by some representatives
18 of the Dutch police department at the request of the
19 Office of the Prosecutor. These were taken, the
20 pictures and diagrams were done in October of last year,
21 so they may not reflect exactly what you saw whether you
22 were there, but they should be fairly close.
23 One of the things you testified about was the
24 windows in the back of building 22. You said they were
25 relatively high as I recall?
1 A. I am sorry, I am losing the translation again. I can
2 hear it now.
3 Q. Can we try another set of earphones? Those might have a
4 broken wire in them or something.
5 A. I cannot hear the translation into Serbian in my
6 earphones. They are not saying anything so I cannot
7 tell. No, there is no translation. Now it is fine.
8 Q. It is coming through in Serbian now?
9 A. Yes, thank you.
10 Q. You recall yesterday that you said that the windows were
11 very high and you had to get up on something to look
12 through them; do you recall testifying about that?
13 A. Yes, that is so.
14 Q. Maybe you can help me with something and if you look at
15 Prosecution Exhibit 1, pictures 25 and 26, those are
16 pictures of the -- if you put them on the ELMO please --
17 those were pictures taken by the Dutch police and
18 identified as being from the interior of building 22.
19 25 and 26, they are on page 23, I believe. Doctor if
20 you look at those windows in the two pictures you will
21 see the two windows on the end, the ones that open
22 out -- we do not have it up on the screen yet for some
24 A. I can see the pictures. I can see the pictures
25 directly, so I do not have to look at the monitor.
1 I can see the pictures better, the photographs.
2 Q. Good. I would prefer that you look at them directly.
3 It is a lot easier that way.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You will see that the two windows at the ends, the left
6 end and right end, currently have clear glass in them
7 and all the windows in the middle have some kind of
8 frosted glass that you cannot see through. Was it that
9 way when you were there in 1992 or was all that frosted
10 glass that you cannot see through?
11 A. It is possible that it was frosted, so we only looked
12 through one. It is possible, I cannot give you an exact
14 Q. So it is possible that those windows, you would have had
15 to look through the crack in the top when it was open,
16 that would be the only way you could see out?
17 A. And/or through one of the panes. It is possible.
18 Q. The way building 22 is set up, it is set up in kind of a
19 depression in the ground, is it not, where some ground
20 was cut away and there is a hill behind it that comes up
21 fairly high, maybe even to the level of the windows? If
22 you look at the pictures on the previous page, pictures
23 23 and 24, that may help your memory.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you look also at picture 7, it is from a different
1 angle, it is on page 13, I believe, you can see that
2 high hill. Do you see what I am talking about, doctor?
3 A. Yes, I can more or less understand. You are saying that
4 it was not possible to see another building from that
5 window. It could be seen. I did say it was rather high
6 up and we probably had to look through the window at a
7 particular angle, but we could see it regardless of the
9 Q. Doctor, what I am suggesting is that that hill would
10 obstruct your vision of other areas, and also --
11 A. No, we could not see other areas from that window, but
12 we could see number 9, that is true. No other building
13 could we see from that window except number 9.
14 Q. Doctor, yesterday you were asked about, and I do not
15 remember whether it was on direct or on
16 cross-examination, that television interview that we saw
17 this morning. When you were asked about it yesterday
18 you said that during the interview you were truthful
19 about some things and not truthful about others. Do you
20 remember saying that doctor?
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. So if you said that you were truthful about some matters
23 in that interview, that is something that I can rely on
24 and the judges can rely on as being what you think is
25 truthful, right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The reason I say that is, let me read to you what you
3 said, and so that the Prosecution or the court can have
4 it if they want to, it is on the LiveNote from
5 yesterday, it is page 82, line 19 through page 83
6 line 2. That is on the LiveNote, I do not have the
7 final transcript yet. You will have to pull it up on
8 the computer. I am going to read this and I am sure
9 that if I read it wrong, someone from the Prosecution
10 will stop me. I have handwritten it off the computer.
11 Let me read this and see if you agree this is what you
12 testified to. According to this transcript, you said:
13 "I answered truthfully when I said that the
14 injured were there, who had been injured and beaten in
15 the camp and in the sports hall in Konjic. As for other
16 questions, whether we had the medicines, how we felt,
17 what the situation was like, that I did not answer
19 Do you remember saying that?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 MR. MORAN: Pass the witness, your Honour. Thank you very
22 much, doctor.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: May I proceed, your Honour?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
25 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
1 Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Grubac.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. My name is John Ackerman, I represent Esad Landzo in
4 this case.
5 A. I understand that.
6 Q. I want to begin my questions of you by directing your
7 attention to that period of time in Konjic when the
8 problems were just beginning, before April 1992, okay?
9 Do you know the period of time I am referring to?
10 A. Fine.
11 Q. Can you hear me?
12 A. Yes, I hear you well.
13 Q. What you had told the Office of the Prosecutor on one of
14 the occasions you talked with them was that prior to
15 that time, there were three political parties
16 representing the three nationalities, the ethnic
17 nationalities, the parties being the SDS, the SDA and
18 the HDZ that were all active in the Konjic area,
20 A. Yes, but that is not quite precise enough because there
21 were some other parties as well, but it is true that
22 those three did exist.
23 Q. The thing that started causing some alarm at least in
24 your mind and certainly that of many others was that as
25 you told the Office of the Prosecutor, each of those
1 parties, the three that I mentioned, had started to arm
2 their members.
3 A. I do not recall stating that exactly in my answer.
4 Q. I would like to have you take a look at the Serbo-Croat
5 version of your statement, which I will hand to you,
6 with the usher's assistance. (Handed).
7 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D20/4.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I think you should find on the first page,
9 beginning with the statement about where you were born
10 as you move down into the second, third and
11 fourth paragraphs, your statement is about the
12 establishment of the SDA, the HDZ and the SDS and how
13 you tell the Office of the Prosecutor, or at least you
14 say in this statement at one point, and here is the
15 language I am trying to direct you to:
16 "At that time the majority of the Serbs had left
17 the town of Konjic, they had fled to the surrounding
18 villages or to Serb held territory. All three parties
19 had started to arm their members."
20 Do you find that language?
21 A. No, I have not found it -- oh yes, I have found it now.
22 Yes, I see it.
23 Q. At least that was your statement on the day that you
24 made that statement, that was your memory of what had
25 happened during that time in Konjic?
1 A. Yes. I still think it is correct, but I could not say
2 with any certainty how it was done because I never was
3 present when such arms were procured. So someone might
4 be able to say that it is unreliable because I was not a
5 witness, but I still think that that was so, though
6 I could not indicate how and when this was done.
7 I could not testify to the arming of any party, but I do
8 think that that was so.
9 Q. You certainly know there came a time when there were
10 lots of guns around in the hands of lots of different
11 people; that you know for sure?
12 A. Yes, that is true.
13 Q. One can easily conclude from that that somebody armed a
14 lot of people from each of these three groups at some
16 A. That is true.
17 Q. From what you told us at the very beginning of your
18 testimony yesterday, I gained an impression about you
19 that I would like you to either confirm or deny for me.
20 It is my impression that prior to the problems that
21 began to develop throughout Yugoslavia in the late 1980s
22 and early 1990s that you were a person who considered
23 yourself a citizen of Yugoslavia, that you were
24 committed to that federalist notion of multi ethnicity,
25 and that the development and growth of the nationalist
1 parties and the nationalist agenda were alarming to you,
2 and something you thought was inappropriate and
3 improper; is that a fair statement?
4 A. It is.
5 Q. I do not want to engage in any kind of a political
6 debate with you, so please understand that is not the
7 force of this next question. The force of the next
8 question is really this: you would have been opposed and
9 you were opposed to any parties, any representatives of
10 any of those nationalist parties that were seeking by
11 whatever means, propaganda or otherwise, to stir up
12 those nationalist feelings to the detriment of the
13 Yugoslav Federation; that is also a fair statement, is
14 it not?
15 A. It is.
16 Q. I want to move just a moment to a few questions about
17 yesterday. After you completed your testimony
18 yesterday, between then and the time you arrived here to
19 give your testimony this morning, could you tell us the
20 names of all the persons with whom you discussed your
21 experiences here yesterday, the kinds of questions you
22 were asked, the kind of responses you gave, things of
23 that nature. Who did you talk to about your testimony
24 over the course of the evening?
25 A. I may have spoken to some people regarding simple
1 technical matters. I did not discuss the substance of
2 the trial with anyone.
3 Q. Who would you have talked to regarding simple technical
4 matters and what do you mean by simple technical
6 A. If one of the witnesses asked me "when will you be
7 going, tomorrow? Am I going to appear tomorrow?" That
8 sort of thing.
9 Q. So you are in communication with other people that are
10 waiting to come and testify here?
11 A. I see them at the hotel.
12 Q. Did you have any communication with persons outside
13 The Hague by telephone or by any other means of
14 communication yesterday evening?
15 A. No. Since I arrived in The Hague I have not called
16 anyone up on the telephone, not even my relatives, my
18 Q. Did you have any conversations with representatives of
19 the Office of the Prosecutor, either the attorneys or
20 any of the investigators regarding your testimony
21 yesterday or in preparation for your testimony today?
22 A. No, I did not.
23 Q. During the cross-examination of you by Ms. Residovic,
24 she went into some detail with you and you responded
25 about a command structure in Konjic during the time of
1 the conflict, during the time that you were detained in
2 Celebici and during that period of time after when you
3 were still living in the Konjic area. You named a
4 number of people: Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, Jasmin Guska,
5 Esad Ramic, Dinko Zebic, Selko Niksic, Zvonko Zovko,
6 Midhat Pirkic, Jasna Dzumhur, Zejnil Delalic, Zdravko
7 Mucic, Hazim Delic. That was a list, as a matter of
8 fact, that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor when
9 you originally gave your statement to them; you are
10 familiar with those people?
11 A. Yes, I am.
12 Q. Those were for the most part people who you had known
13 prior to the conflict erupted in the Konjic area?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What I would like to ask you to do for us now is to give
16 us pretty much the same kind of list of the persons who
17 were the leaders and held leadership, positions in the
18 SDS at the time of the outbreak of hostilities in the
19 Konjic area or immediately prior thereto. Who were
20 those leaders?
21 A. First those names are not names of people from the SDA
22 or the HDZ, so I do not know why you are comparing that
23 list with people belonging to the SDS. These are not
24 people from a single party at all. These are people
25 from different political parties.
1 Q. I probably inartfully asked my question. Who among that
2 group that you listed, the eleven persons that you
3 listed, would you identify as members of the SDS?
4 A. I do not know what parties those people belong to,
5 I just said that those people were members of certain
6 municipal social bodies. I did not refer to them as
7 members of different parties -- I do not know which
8 parties those people belong to.
9 Q. When we first started this process, the first thing you
10 and I talked about was the existence of those three
11 parties, the specific three parties in the Konjic area,
12 the SDA, the SDS and the HDZ. The other thing you and
13 I agreed to was that there was the arming of members of
14 those parties, at least that was apparent at some point
15 as the conflict moved along. What I am trying to find
16 out from you now is, with your broad knowledge of who
17 was involved in what in the Konjic area, your knowledge
18 of everybody there and everybody's knowledge of you and
19 your prominence in the community, what I am trying to
20 get from you now is who were the people who were in
21 leadership positions with regard to the SDS, just
22 individuals, who are they?
23 A. I think that the President of the SDS was Kuljanin,
24 I cannot remember his first name and I do not know
25 anyone else belonging to that party.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: I think maybe we should break, your Honour.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think so. We wish to have a break
3 and then return at 2.30.
4 (1.00 pm)
5 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, I think you may proceed.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. Before I proceed,
4 there is a matter I want to make a part of the record in
5 case anything comes up in the future about it. During
6 our lunch break I was asked by defendant Mucic to visit
7 with him for a moment. That conversation had to do with
8 his concern about the health of Mr. Greaves, which
9 I happen to know something about. I made it clear that
10 I could not do that without the permission of his
11 counsel Mr. Olujic. I secured that permission and only
12 spoke with him with permission from his counsel. I have
13 been criticised for having done that and been told I am
14 not permitted to do that. I think that is not the
15 case. I think any of us can give any of the others
16 permission to talk to our clients if we wish to do so.
17 I just want Mr. Olujic to confirm for the record that
18 I did not speak to his client without his permission.
19 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, yes, it is all right. My
20 colleague acted legatus and it is all right.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you for permitting me to put that on the
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a difference in ethics,
24 I suppose, in the understanding of each counsel can be
25 of assistance to the other.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would like to go into private
2 session for a moment for the next few questions I want
3 to ask this witness.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We can go into private session.
5 (In closed session)
13 pages 6144 to 6156 in closed session
11 (In open session)
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Grubac, we have gone back into public
13 session now. Let me ask you this, if I ask you any more
14 questions that you would feel more comfortable answering
15 in private session, you just let me know.
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. Some time in April, and I have failed to make a note of
18 the date here, so you can remind me, but some time in
19 April 1992 you moved your children to Bradina?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. About when was that?
22 A. Mid April.
23 Q. The reason you moved your children to Bradina was you
24 were concerned for your safety living in Konjic?
25 A. The building I was living in virtually everyone had
1 left, only one of my colleagues stayed behind, and we
2 thought perhaps it would be better to take them away
3 some place. The only place we had was my in-laws' house
4 and that is where we took them.
5 Q. But you knew that Serbs were leaving Konjic in large
6 numbers and going to other locations, many to Bradina;
7 you know that, did you not?
8 A. Not just Serbs, everybody was leaving Konjic, going in
9 various directions, Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro.
10 Q. That was because everybody expected that things were
11 going to turn hot in terms of war rather soon?
12 A. That is just it.
13 Q. And no one would want to stay in a place that might
14 likely be a battlefield in the very near future?
15 A. Most probably people who did not wish to take part in
16 any of that wanted to go and did go, if they had
17 anywhere to go to.
18 Q. We know, for instance, that the population of Bradina at
19 least doubled, if not more than doubled, during those
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Before you yourself left Konjic for the last time, and
23 now I am talking about those days you talked about
24 6th or 7th May, in fact there was some shelling that
25 went on in the village of Konjic, the city of Konjic,
2 A. I was told that the day before or that day in the
3 afternoon, it was a holiday, Saint George's day or
4 something, that two or three shells did hit Konjic and
5 after that, I could not go to Konjic again.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Grubac, I would like to take the
7 opportunity now for you to look at a segment of video.
8 Your Honours, I have informed the Prosecutors of what
9 these segments I want to show him are. They are
10 segments that are filmed in Konjic during these early
11 days in May that he is talking about and I want to ask
12 him if he can recognise things depicted in these films
13 and buildings and things of that nature. I have a copy
14 for the Registry to enter as an exhibit which I would
15 present to the Registry now. The technical people have
16 a copy to play. I think the appropriate thing to do,
17 Mr. Grubac, is for you to simply look at all three of
18 these segments at once. The questions I am going to be
19 interested in asking you about these segments primarily
20 deal with what it is you might be able to recognise,
21 whether you see things in these segments that are
22 familiar to you, whether you see the area where the
23 3rd March school was located, and with that specific
24 issue, as you are watching it, try to make a note of
25 about where it was, because we might want to go back to
1 it. Okay?
2 A. Yes, fine.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Could I ask what the tape has been marked.
4 THE REGISTRAR: It is marked as D21/4.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: I would offer that into evidence at this
7 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, if we could see the video before
8 that, please?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: That would be fine. I have no problem with
10 just having it played. I will just ask the technical
11 people now to go ahead and play it.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose after our viewing it, we will
13 see whether there is any objection.
14 (Video tape played)
15 A. May I ask, what is it, an aerial film or what is it?
16 What kind of a tape is this?
17 Q. This tape is done with a home video camera, the first
18 part you saw was obviously a cemetery. This appears to
19 be someone's home. The next two segments you see will
20 be from TV Konjic. This second segment is coming now
21 and that would be a piece of film from TV Konjic.
22 (Video played).
23 This segment was filmed on May 7th, which may have
24 been the day you left or the day after. I am not sure
25 and I do not think you are.
1 (Video tape stopped)
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Now I think you have seen them all. The first
3 question I want to ask you is; you recognise those
4 pictures as coming from Konjic, do you not?
5 A. No, truly, it is not easy to recognise this as being
6 Konjic, except for one single segment passing true Tito
7 Street, when you can see the street and the municipal
8 building, I think this was in the second segment. The
9 other shots are close-ups, details by which it is really
10 not possible to tell what town is in question, but in
11 the second part of the film I did recognise Tito Street
12 because I saw the assembly building and that part of the
13 town. As for the rest, it is not possible to recognise
14 anything. The first part you can see it is a cemetery,
15 but I cannot recognise that it is the Konjic cemetery.
16 And in the second segment only the sequence showing Tito
17 Street and the assembly building and part of a cafe
18 called Prenj and the rest are just close-ups by which it
19 is not possible to conclude what town is involved. Too
20 many close-ups. There are no broad pictures, you just
21 see roofs, staircases, windows, by which it is not
22 possible -- after all, Konjic is not such a small town
23 for one to be able to recognise a roof or a staircase.
24 There are no symbols of Konjic, there are no bridges.
25 There is no city cafe. There is no river Nerveta, so it
1 is difficult for me to recognise. Perhaps if you could
2 indicate a particular detail, except for this second
3 segment, as I said, where you can see the Prenj Cafe and
4 the Tito Road.
5 Q. You have no reason to believe it is other than that
6 I have represented, do you? You have no reason to
7 believe it is anywhere besides Konjic?
8 A. All I can say is that you yourself said it may have been
9 taken on May 7th and I thinks the last day I was in
10 Konjic was 6th May. This may have been filmed later,
11 but on May 6th Konjic did not look like this. I am
12 quite sure of that. Anyone who was there at the time
13 can confirm this. On May 7th, it is possible, but by
14 then I was no longer in Konjic.
15 Q. I think you have already told us that you were not aware
16 that the JNA airforce had attacked Konjic on 7th May?
17 A. I do not know when I said that the JNA airforce had
18 attacked Konjic. I know that there were some planes
19 flying over, but that was not in May, that must have
20 been in April, but I am not aware that the airforce
21 attacked Konjic at all.
22 Q. You misunderstood my question. My question was: I think
23 you have already told us you were not aware that Konjic
24 was attacked on May 7th by the JNA; you did not know
1 A. On May 7th I probably was not in Konjic. I was probably
2 in Konjic on May 6th, so if anybody did bomb Konjic on
3 7th May, then I was not aware of it because it means
4 that I was there on 6th May, but if I was there on
5 7th May, then it was not bombed on 7th May.
6 Q. And if it was bombed on 7th May, you were not there,
8 A. Yes, I was not there.
9 Q. That second part that you have talked about and you
10 recognise the Tito Street part of it, that is pretty
11 close to the 3rd March school, is it not?
12 A. No, it is quite at the other end of town.
13 Q. Did you see any part of the tape that you recognised as
14 being near that 3rd March school?
15 A. No, I was not able to recognise anything. If you wish,
16 you can play it again, but I could not recognise a
17 single detail that would lead me to believe that it was
18 March 3rd. All schools are rather similar, you know, in
19 Konjic, but there was nothing to indicate that any one
20 of those buildings was a school. They were close-ups,
21 as I said, so it was difficult to tell what it was.
22 Q. I take it that you did see in all three of those
23 segments evidence of shelling, bomb damage, artillery
24 damage, whatever it is, you saw evidence that that had
25 gone on?
1 A. That is evident.
2 Q. In the first part did you see the name Dzumhur on one of
3 the headstones? Did you notice that?
4 A. It went fast, but I think you are right, it did say
6 Q. That is a name you know in Konjic, is it not?
7 A. Yes, Dzumhur is an old family of Konjic.
8 Q. That kind of damage and destruction that we saw in that
9 film is exactly the kind of thing you were trying to get
10 your children away from.
11 A. Of course. Nobody would want to attend this kind of
13 Q. I take it you know, because of your experience and
14 training, that living in that kind of an environment
15 where shells are falling out of the sky, people are
16 being killed, buildings are being blown up, not only is
17 a threat to one's likelihood, physical well-being, but
18 also can have profound mental effects on people.
19 A. Of course. I know that as a human being and also as a
20 doctor, a psychiatrist.
21 Q. You know that sometimes people even develop what in
22 World War II we called shell-shock and what I think we
23 now call post-traumatic stress disorder from being
24 subjected to repeated attacks on their life, shelling or
1 A. Yes, post-traumatic stress. These are stresses which
2 have a certain symptomology and which last for a certain
3 period of time.
4 Q. I take it in, during and since the war there in the
5 former Yugoslavia, you have seen a number of people who
6 were suffering from that kind of a problem?
7 A. Yes, I have seen quite a number of people with
8 post-traumatic stress disorder, not just adults but
9 children as well.
10 Q. At this point, now that we have seen the film, I do not
11 want to ask any more questions about it, your Honours,
12 I would like to offer it in evidence.
13 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we have no objection that the
14 segment the witness actually recognised be introduced in
15 evidence, but we would just ask for clarification of
16 whether the witness recognises shellings and damages and
17 if so the date on which he might have seen all this.
18 Thank you very much.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: If I understand the objection, your Honour,
20 I am willing to have the technical people remake that
21 tape so that it contains only the second segment which
22 the witness said he could recognise Konjic in, and the
23 date of that segment is May 5th, I think, or 6th. It is
24 May 6th, 1992 and it came from TV Konjic. With that
25 change, I will withdraw what I have given to the
1 Registrar right now, with the understanding that I will
2 bring back a tape that has had the --
3 A. May I say something, your Honours? May I be allowed to
5 MR. ACKERMAN: The last time I said okay, your Honour, it was
6 a mistake. I think this witness is not one who is here
7 to make a political speech, but probably has something
8 to add to the issue of what is on the tape.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can say what you wish to.
10 A. I just wanted to say that I claim that on May 6th,
11 Konjic did not look like it is shown on these segments.
12 After that, I do not know, because until May 6th I was
13 in Konjic and Konjic did not look like it appears to be
14 on this film, regardless of the date on the film.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I understand you. You have a better
16 knowledge of Konjic and which part of Konjic is being
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the dates on the film, of course,
19 were recorded electronically. We could not have put
20 them on today or yesterday or any other time. They were
21 there at the time they were filmed. They were filmed by
22 the television station in Konjic. I am sure the date is
23 right, the films were taken on 5th, 6th and 7th May, and
24 the one that he recognised was the one taken on May
25 6th. That one does not show nearly as profound the
1 damage as the third segment on the 7th, which was after
2 the air attack on Konjic, which did a significant amount
3 of damage. The second segment does show damage which
4 clearly came from shelling, but not from the air
5 attacks, so I think the second one is probably
6 relatively consistent with the witness's testimony. It
7 is the one he recognises. He does remember seeing the
8 name Dzumhur on the gravestones in the cemetery, and
9 that that is a long time Konjic family, so I think what
10 I would offer is segments 1 and 2, and I will have
11 segment 3 removed from the tape and re-submitted with
12 that change, and that would be my offer.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any objection on the offer of
14 the two segments 1 and 2?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I be of assistance?
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Delalic's Defence would have shown this
18 second segment to one of the witnesses. I am not sure
19 it was compiled in the same way as my colleague has
20 done, and the witness recognised the old part of town
21 which are can on this segment, so I think that part of
22 the film which is already in evidence can help to take a
23 decision on the admission of the whole segment if it is
24 combined with the recognition given by this witness.
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if I could add something also? This
1 witness has seen this and said that this is the reason
2 he left Konjic, so that his family would not see this.
3 So this goes to explain his motives for leaving Konjic
4 and moving to Bradina.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is a good interpretation.
6 A. It is not true, that is not what I said.
7 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we believe that with the
8 clarification given by the witness, and keeping in mind
9 the clarification given by the witness, we have no
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right, thank you. That is no
12 objection in admitting segments 1 and 2 because the
13 witness limits it to the date 6th May.
14 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour, and as I say, on the basis of
15 the clarification given by the witness.
16 JUDGE JAN: You left Konjic on 6th May. What time did you
18 A. Around 1 pm.
19 JUDGE JAN: So it could have been in the afternoon?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: You know, do you not, that after you left
22 Konjic, for a significant period of time Konjic was
23 subject to some rather heavy bombardment?
24 A. Until 28th May I had no contact with Konjic, nor did we
25 receive any information as to what was happening in
2 Q. After that, you were released from Celebici, you went to
3 live in an apartment in Konjic, you were in Konjic every
4 day for a significant period of time before you actually
5 finally fled the area, and you saw the damage at that
6 time that had been done and was being done in the Konjic
7 area, so as you sit here today you know that over a
8 period of time significant shelling was done of the
9 Konjic area and significant damage done to the city.
10 You know that, do you not?
11 A. That is correct, that is correct.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. But you are asking me for the dates 5th and 6th May.
14 Konjic was not shelled on those dates.
15 Q. I have obviously confused you by not being clear. My
16 last questions were into much later times, you know that
17 over the entire period of the conflict that Konjic was
18 shelled severely, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. At no time that you were at Celebici did Celebici become
21 a victim of the shelling?
22 A. Celebici was not shelled.
23 Q. In terms of an area that was being fairly heavily
24 shelled, Celebici was a relatively safe place, was it
1 A. One might put it that way.
2 Q. You would certainly agree that in terms of shelling, and
3 I am only talking about shelling, that Celebici was a
4 much safer place than 3rd March school, which sat in the
5 middle of a zone that was being frequently shelled,
6 whether it was hit itself or not; correct?
7 A. Theoretically that is correct, but it does not mean to
8 say that somebody who can shell the 3rd March school
9 could not also have shelled Celebici, but it is a fact
10 that Celebici was not shelled.
11 Q. If you know where the artillery was located, and I do
12 not know whether you do or not, but if you do, you know
13 it was located in a position where they could not hit
14 Celebici from where they were, but could only hit
15 Konjic; do you know that?
16 A. I could only know if there was artillery in Konjic. How
17 could I know where anybody's artillery was outside
18 Konjic? I am not an artillery man, I am just a doctor.
19 Q. I am thinking perhaps you could have learned afterwards
20 rather than at the time. You might have learned
21 afterwards where the Serb artillery especially
22 placements were up toward Borci, known exactly where
23 they were shelling from. Do you know that now?
24 A. No, I did not learn that. My orientation was more to
25 examine why the war had occurred among men, whether men
1 had provoked it, what was the reason that prompted them
2 to use artillery at all.
3 Q. You moved your children out of Konjic to a place that
4 you believed would be safe from that kind of shelling,
5 and that was a wise move, I take it, on your part, to
6 get them away from where the shelling was going on at
7 the time?
8 A. It is not quite correct, because Bradina was shelled on
9 25th and 26th May.
10 Q. I understand, but at the time you made that move that
11 seemed to be the safe alternative for your children?
12 A. It did not when I took my children to Bradina there was
13 no shelling. Maybe it was an instinct that I was led
14 by, because everyone was taking their children away.
15 I really did not think about shelling. This was mid
17 Q. You certainly were not moving them to a place you
18 thought would be more dangerous than where they were?
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought he gave us his reasons for
20 taking them to Bradina. That was where he had his
21 wife's parents. That is what he said. It was the only
22 place he had suitable accommodation.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Is that true, that you had no other choice, it
24 was either Bradina or Konjic?
25 A. At the time I did not have any choice and I did not wish
1 to leave the territory of Konjic because I thought there
2 was no need for me to leave. I do have a family home in
3 Montenegro where I was born, but I did not think it
4 necessary to go there at the time.
5 Q. Do you have a house in Ostrozac?
6 A. I do, I have a weekend home. It is the municipality of
7 Jablanica, but it is closer to Konjic than the town of
8 Jablanica. To be more precise, I had a country home
10 Q. I think you told us earlier today that after you left
11 Celebici you lived in the apartment of your wife's
12 parents, I believe, in Konjic, and that apartment was
13 quite near the 3rd March elementary school; is that
15 A. It is true.
16 Q. Had you become sufficiently familiar with Mr. Landzo by
17 that time that you would have recognised him outside
19 A. I think I would not recognise Landzo even now, and also
20 I could not recognise him then.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. Grubac, I have enjoyed meeting you and
22 I want to thank you for being here. I hope everything
23 goes well for you in the future. I have no more
24 questions. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
1 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, no further questions in
2 re-examination. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much, Dr. Grubac.
4 I think that is all for you. You are discharged.
5 A. Thank you.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next witness?
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am sorry, if I might just
9 address one issue quickly before the next witness is
10 brought in? We have discussed it with the Prosecution,
11 and everybody on the Defence team and the Prosecution is
12 aware that there is a rumour, and we do not have fact of
13 this, that one witness may have spoken and given another
14 interview on Belgrade television last night, and just as
15 a precaution and just to make sure that maybe they had
16 the warning ahead of time, I spoke to the Victim and
17 Witnesses Unit today.
18 They are not giving our witnesses the same Rule
19 90(d) warning that was given in the Tadic case. I have
20 spoken to the Prosecution about this warning. They have
21 no objections if this court orders that all witnesses,
22 before testifying in this case, are also given the same
23 warning that the Tadic case gave to prevent
24 contamination of witness testimony.
25 I have only one copy from the Victim and Witnesses
1 Unit here to offer the court. I would like to ask
2 that -- the Victim and Witness Unit never gave it to our
3 witnesses because they thought it had to be an order
4 from this court, so we are asking now that this court
5 consider this warning, so we do not have any -- or maybe
6 can suppress some of the problems we have had with
7 possible witness tampering that it might be helpful in
8 this case also to have this Rule 90(d) warning given to
9 all the witnesses before they testify in this case.
10 If I might have the usher offer the one copy that
11 we have from the Victim and Witness Unit, which the
12 Prosecution has already seen, we would like to ask this
13 court to consider rendering an order that all witnesses
14 be provided with this ahead of time.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This matter has been raised here
16 before. This is not the first time.
17 MS. McMURREY: Yes, your Honour, it has.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When it was raised I made it very clear
19 that when there is a decision of a court about matters
20 coming before it, it is applicable in all cases. If you
21 start applying in a symptomatic way, that the Tadic
22 Trial Chamber has decided and therefore it applies only
23 to witnesses at the Tadic trial, then it means the same
24 decision will be made. No legal system operates that
25 way. If there is a ruling that applies to witnesses
1 before the court, it applies to all witnesses. It is
2 unnecessary to tell us again to make such a ruling,
3 because it is a ruling of the Tribunal. That should
4 follow for each case.
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the Victim and Witness Unit did
6 not understand that to be so. Just for clarification
7 for the Victim and Witness Unit, they say they are not
8 giving the witnesses that warning because they thought
9 it had to be an order from this court. So for
10 clarification purposes, not for me, and we have
11 addressed this before -- I am only doing this for the
12 Victim and Witness Unit to make sure the witnesses are
13 given this order.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This Tribunal cannot be acting because
15 of the ignorance of the Victims and Witnesses Unit. It
16 is a decision of the Tribunal. When it is set aside, it
17 follows wherever a witness is involved.
18 MS. McMURREY: So then the oral order of this court is that
19 whatever the decisions --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This court is not making any additional
21 order to what is already there.
22 MS. McMURREY: Just for clarification, is it the
23 presumption of this court --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you making the same mistakes too,
25 that another order is required, whenever another case is
1 before the Trial Chamber? It means each time a case is
2 before the Trial Chamber, the ICT ruling must remain,
3 that is what you are assuming.
4 MS. McMURREY: I am just trying to see whether a 90(d)
5 warning is given to all witnesses that come before this
6 tribunal. Is that what this court is saying they should
7 be given?
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, I think I need not say more.
9 If the Victims and Witnesses Unit are in doubt, they
10 should know where to go to for clarification.
11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, when we discussed this some time
12 ago, it was on my motion. As I understood the court --
13 everybody agreed with what the court just said, that it
14 applied and it should have been given, and that there
15 was no reason for this Trial Chamber to do anything
16 else. The problem, I think, has arisen when it has not
18 I think the Trial Chamber and I and the
19 Prosecution and everybody thought that the Victim and
20 Witness Unit was sending this notice out along with the
21 summons in this case, just like it had done in the
22 earlier case, and that all the witnesses in this case
23 would be treated exactly the way the witnesses were in
24 the Tadic case. That kind of thing has not occurred.
25 It just did not happen.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know, I think I have told you
2 what the position is -- let me repeat it again. Let us
3 not the ignorance of a group make me follow their
4 mistakes. I do not think I should do that. It is a
5 decision of this court that all witnesses should be
6 served with that notice, and I think it follows.
7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I thought that was the ruling of the
8 court also. I have had no problem with that being the
9 ruling of the court. I think it is a proper ruling and
10 should have been abided by.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose we will ask the legal officer
12 to know how to put it across to them. He meets them
13 quite often and should be able to tell them what they
14 should do in subsequent cases.
15 Mr. Niemann, I think we are expecting your next
17 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honours. Your Honour, the
18 Prosecution calls Mrs. Grubac. Your Honour, while the
19 usher is getting the witness, if I could just bring a
20 small technical matter to the court's attention. When
21 the journalist testified earlier this week, some
22 translations were submitted by the Prosecution office
23 that had attached to it a separate page with some
24 corrections to the translation that we had been given
25 immediately before the witness testified by the
1 translation section. Those corrections have now been
2 incorporated into a corrected translation which I have
3 one copy for the Registrar and extra copies for the
4 court. The Defence have been given these and indicated
5 that they have no objection. It is just for the court's
6 convenience. It is 167A and 168A, just corrected
7 translations. Thank you, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, I wonder if this might be a
10 convenient time to raise one other small matter with
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As long as we are not extending into
13 the witness's time.
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Given that we have a break at 4.00, it will
15 take two or three minutes at most. It has to do with
16 the transcript from Monday, August 11th, during the
17 testimony of Branko Sudar. I have discussed this with
18 the Prosecution and the interpretation department, and
19 on page 5913, there was a mistranslation -- some words
20 were left out of what Mr. Sudar said in his language to
21 the English language. We are requesting that at line 6,
22 the sentence ends "hit the man"; it should read "hit the
23 man in the thigh", adding the words "in the thigh".
24 I have discussed this Mr. Hocking as well and with the
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, do you mind if we rise
2 now instead of kicking off now?
3 MS. McHENRY: No, your Honour, I think that makes sense.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will now rise and
6 reassemble at 4.30.
7 (4.00 pm)
8 (A short break)
9 (4.30 pm)
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I need to ask the court for a
12 clarification of what has apparently turned into
13 something of a major concern. I suggested to the court
14 that I had spoken with Mr. Mucic for a few minutes about
15 the health of Mr. Greaves. The security people now need
16 to know whether that is okay with the court if we talk
17 with -- counsel for one defendant talks with counsel for
18 another defendant, as long as we have permission of
19 their counsel. Where I am from, it is perfectly okay as
20 long as you have that permission, otherwise it is
21 unethical. Apparently they want this court to pronounce
22 on that so they will know what to do in the future.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know, this is strange to me.
24 It is hardly a contentious matter between parties that
25 comes before a Trial Chamber of any court. I do not see
1 how we can pronounce on complaints by somebody outside
2 the issue. They are not parties to any of this, so how
3 can they invoke the jurisdiction of the court for
4 matters which strictly speaking do not concern them? If
5 both counsel have agreed as to how to conduct the
6 affairs of their case, I do not see anybody coming into
8 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that clarifies it, your Honour.
9 I might just add that in the situation we find ourselves
10 in, our co-defendants in this case could very well be
11 witnesses for our side, and I might very well want to
12 talk with one of the other defendants about the
13 possibility of him being a witness for my client.
14 I should be permitted to do that, as long as I have the
15 permission of their counsel, so I think it would be
16 inappropriate to restrict that in any way, as long as we
17 are doing it ethically and with permission from their
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, what is the position?
20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution calls
21 Mr.s Grubac.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually I thought you were starting
23 with the application for protective measures.
24 MR. NIEMANN: We can do that.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness is already here, we do not
1 have to. We can take that later.
2 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, your Honour, if I misunderstood.
3 Mrs. Grubac (sworn)
4 Examined by MS. McHENRY
5 Q. May I proceed, your Honour?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
7 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Ma'am, would you please state
8 your full name?
9 A. My name is Gordana Grubac.
10 Q. How old are you at the present time?
11 A. I am 42 years old.
12 Q. Maybe just for the help of the interpreters, ma'am, if
13 I could ask you to move your chair a little closer to
14 the desk so you can be closer to the microphone.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. Where were you living in the beginning of 1992,
17 Mrs Grubac?
18 A. I lived in Konjic.
19 Q. Is that the town of Konjic?
20 A. Yes, the town of Konjic.
21 Q. How were you employed at that time?
22 A. I was employed with a bank.
23 Q. Are you married, ma'am?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. Is there a problem with the interpretation?
1 A. It is a bit too loud.
2 Q. What is the name of your husband, ma'am?
3 A. The name of my husband is Petko.
4 Q. What is your ethnic background, ma'am?
5 A. I am a Serb.
6 Q. Did there come a time in 1992 when you left Konjic town,
7 Mrs. Grubac?
8 A. Yes, there did.
9 Q. When was this approximately that you left Konjic?
10 A. The last time I was in Konjic was on May 7th, 1992.
11 Q. Where did you go when you left Konjic?
12 A. I went to Bradina.
13 Q. Why did you leave Konjic?
14 A. I left Konjic because on 7th May I could no longer get
15 into my flat, it was already occupied. 1st May is a
16 holiday celebrated in Yugoslavia and we had not worked
17 for a couple of days, three or four days, and we had
18 left for Bradina where our children already were with my
19 parents. We went to visit them. On 5th May I returned,
20 I went to work and I came back again on 7th May. When
21 I came on 7th May, somebody had already moved into my
22 flat so we could not get inside.
23 Q. Did there come a time when there was military action in
25 A. Not then, not on 7th May in Bradina.
1 Q. Sorry, at any time in May, ma'am, was there military
2 action in Bradina?
3 A. In the course of the month of May, yes, perhaps on the
4 13th or 14th there was some firing, but after 25th May
5 there was an attack on Bradina.
6 Q. At any time during the time that you were in Bradina,
7 were either you or your husband involved in the defence
8 of the village, including the time prior to the attack
9 and during the attack?
10 A. No, we were not.
11 Q. Can you just very briefly describe what you and your
12 husband did when the attack started?
13 A. We were with our children accomodated in the house of my
14 parents, we were staying with my parents. We actually
15 waited to see what would happen, there was an attack,
16 there was shooting. At a certain point, we saw that the
17 lower section of Bradina, which is called Lower Bradina,
18 was on fire, and the outcome of this was our fleeing to
19 the forest, and we stayed in the woods with our children
20 for two or three days waiting to see what would happen
21 next. The night before we surrendered to the Muslim
22 soldiers, the Muslim soldiers came to the house of my
23 parents and they shot at those houses. We could see
24 that from the forest. The next morning they went away
25 and we had already surrendered by then. Then they set
1 that part of Bradina on fire as well. Me and my
2 husband, then another three men, surrendered, as well as
3 some 30 women and children surrendered to the Muslim
5 Q. Please just briefly describe what happened after you
6 surrendered to the soldiers.
7 A. After we had surrendered to the soldiers the Muslim army
8 came and took my husband and these three men away, put
9 them in a car and drove them off towards Konjic. They
10 shut up the women and the children in Konjic in the
12 Q. How long did you stay in this school in Konjic?
13 A. In a school in Bradina, I stayed there for three days.
14 In the meantime, the best man at my wedding came and
15 took me and my children away and the other women and the
16 other children remained in the school.
17 Q. After the three days when this person came, did you
18 return to your apartment in Konjic, to the house in
19 Bradina, or somewhere else?
20 A. I could not return to my flat in Konjic because as
21 I have already said somebody else had already moved into
22 it. We could not go to Bradina either because all the
23 houses had been burnt down, so I stayed with this
24 person, the best man at my wedding, and we stayed there,
25 me and my children, at his place for a month and then we
1 moved to the flat of my parents, because my parents had
2 a flat in Konjic and also had a house in Bradina.
3 Q. Did you learn where your husband had been taken?
4 A. Yes, I did. Policemen, or rather soldiers told me that
5 he had been taken to Konjic for some sort of a hearing,
6 but I thought that my husband would be released on the
7 same day. However, I was wrong. When I came they told
8 me he had been taken to prison.
9 Q. Did you learn whether or not the prison he had been
10 taken to was Celebici?
11 A. At first he was not in Celebici, he was locked up in the
12 elementary school called 3rd March, I went to visit him
13 once in that school. I believe they spent seven days
14 there. I only saw him for a short while, and after that
15 I did not see him again for almost two months -- a month
16 and a half.
17 Q. Was there a time when you learned that your husband was
18 being detained in Celebici?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were any other of your immediate family members also
21 detained in Celebici?
22 A. Yes, my father was detained who was 68 years old at the
23 time, and my brother who is older than me, he was 40 at
24 the time, and my younger brother who was 36 at the time.
25 Q. During the time your husband and other family members
1 were in Celebici, did you ever have any communication
2 from them?
3 A. Yes, on one occasion my husband sent me a note saying
4 that I was not to come, I nor my sister-in-law were to
5 come to the camp because some horrible things were
6 happening to women there. He did not say specifically
7 what, but he said we were not to come.
8 Q. Nonetheless, did you at some point visit your husband in
10 A. Yes, I did, on one occasion a friend of mine, who is a
11 Croat, came and said that the prisoners had not been
12 given food for three days and they were in terrible
13 shape and they were fainting and that we should go and
14 take some food to them and that if I did not want to do
15 that, she would. So I decided to go there with my
16 sister-in-law and to take some food to them, and I did
17 go on that same day.
18 Q. Would you please tell us exactly what happened when you
19 went to Celebici?
20 A. I did not understand the question. What do you mean,
21 exactly, "when I went to Celebici".
22 Q. Sorry. If I understood you correctly you indicated that
23 you decided and did in fact go to Celebici to visit your
24 husband. I am just asking that you tell us exactly what
25 happened when you got to the camp?
1 A. When I arrived at the camp, I see. That day I came
2 there and I saw at that moment a horrendous picture,
3 women in a row standing in the sun who were not
4 permitted to say a single word. They were just standing
5 in a row, one behind another, holding some bags in their
6 hands in which they had brought some food for their
7 people in the camp, and I also stood in that queue. In
8 the meantime, a guard saw me whom I had met a few days
9 before the outbreak of the war in the bank and he
10 recognised me. He walked up to me and he said "it is
11 good that you have come. The doctor is fine, I have
12 seen him". However, he then left and after some five or
13 ten minutes he returned. He went into the camp and some
14 five or ten minutes later he returned and he beckoned to
15 me from the gate and told me --
16 Q. If I can just stop you and ask you to go a little
17 slower. Do you know the name of this guard?
18 A. I do not know his first name, but I do know that his
19 surname is Hondo.
20 Q. After five or ten minutes -- please go on with what
21 happened and please go slowly.
22 A. Okay. So he called my and told me that the commander,
23 Pavo, was calling me. He said that I could go and see
24 my husband and I went with him and entered a sort of
25 shed. He took me into an office which was to the
1 right-hand side, and in that office there was a girl
2 whom I only know by surname, it is Pozder, and Pavo was
3 also there. The two of them were there in the office
4 when I got there.
5 Q. Can you describe approximately where this building was
6 within the camp?
7 A. I really at that time did not dare look around, I was
8 scared, I just went. I know that I did not go very far
9 from the gate. We took the direction left from the
10 gate. We passed by a small house, a small shed, at
11 least that is the way it seemed to me, and then we
12 entered this shed and inside this other building. The
13 office to which I came was on the right-hand side.
14 Q. What happened after you and Mr. Hondo went into the room
15 where the commander Pavo and the other woman were? What
16 happened next, please?
17 A. Pavo sent Hondo to get my husband, and in the meantime
18 I asked him to let my sister-in-law also inside the prison
19 to see my brother, which is to say her husband and he
20 did. Also he let my sister-in-law in and brought my
22 Q. After Pavo sent the guard to go get your husband, could
23 you please tell us exactly what happened next?
24 A. When my husband arrived, is that what you are asking?
25 Q. I am just asking you to please continue with what
2 A. Yes. Then Hondo brought my husband and in the
3 meanwhile, my sister-in-law had also arrived and my
4 brother. These were really moving scenes. My husband
5 had visibly lost weight. He was white as a sheet, he
6 was deprived, tears streamed down his cheeks. My
7 brother had also lost quite a lot of weight. Before
8 that he used to have a bit more. His nose was deformed,
9 his teeth had been knocked out. He asked Pavo to let
10 him sit down because he could not stand on his two feet
11 and Pavo let him sit.
12 In the meantime, my husband asked me whether I had
13 addressed Ahmed Jusufbegovic who was the best man at our
14 wedding who we thought influential enough and could help
15 us if he wanted to. I said I had not contacted him.
16 Pavo shouted at my husband and said that he really did
17 not understand a thing, that he did not know on account
18 of whom he was in prison and there was no point in his
19 asking Ahmed to help him. Then when my husband asked
20 why he was locked up and Pavo answered because he was
21 superior to them, he was above them. Those were his
22 words and then we sat there for some ten or fifteen
23 minutes more and then we left, me and my sister-in-law
24 and they returned to the prison.
25 Q. Did you have occasion to see any of your other family
1 members besides your brother and your husband?
2 A. No, I had no occasion -- I could not see my father and
3 my younger brother.
4 Q. Did you ask to see them or did you not ask?
5 A. I cannot recall exactly. I believe I did ask to see at
6 least one of them and he only allowed us to see my
7 brother on account of my sister-in-law.
8 Q. What did you do after this visit -- approximately how
9 long did your visit in the camp last? How long did you
10 see your husband for?
11 A. Ten to fifteen minutes, not more. Pavo said that we
12 were to leave -- he actually was joking, said "it is
13 better that you leave on your own than me having to
14 force you out", so we stayed there for ten or fifteen
15 minutes and then left.
16 Q. What, if anything, did you do after your visit to see
17 your husband, ma'am?
18 A. After our visit to the prison, in the meantime the train
19 between Jablanica and Konjic had already gone, we had to
20 go back on foot, so on our way back we passed by
21 Zejnil's house and saw plenty of soldiers there,
22 everybody was there, so I assumed that Zejnil was also
23 there, and then I call him on the phone on that same
25 Q. Can you please tell the court exactly why it was that
1 you decided to call Zejnil?
2 A. I had to find a way to at least try to save my husband
3 and my father and my brothers, and I sought a way and
4 I enquired around and quite by accident it was in fact
5 that I found out -- in fact I often had occasion to be
6 in the company of Zejnil's brother and it was he who
7 told me to try and call Zejnil. He practically
8 insisted, he said "call Zejnil when he is here, call
9 Zejnil", which I eventually did.
10 Q. What is the last name of Zejnil?
11 A. Delalic, Zejnil.
12 Q. What is the name of the brother who told you to call
14 A. Sefik Delalic.
15 Q. Did you have any other information that led you to
16 contact Zejnil to try and get your husband out of the
18 A. We were not very -- we were not able, we were in no
19 position to establish much contact with people, to
20 communicate with people much. We could not go out, we
21 could not move around, so there were very few people we
22 could talk to. These were more or less Sefik's friends
23 who happened to be there when I was there and it was all
24 of them who told me to try and ask Zejnil, or rather
25 they insisted that I do that.
1 Q. Were any of these people, these friends of Sefik who
2 also told you you should call Zejnil, do you know
3 whether or not any of them had any connection to the
4 Celebici camp?
5 A. One of them I think was a guard at the Celebici camp,
6 but I do not know what his name is. It was a young lad,
7 but I did not know him before that.
8 Q. Besides what you were told or what was suggested to you
9 by his brother and by this young guard, what did you
10 know of Mr. Delalic's position at this time?
11 A. More from this story of Sefik's, people would say in his
12 company, "Zejnil is at Igman", or he was having a
13 meeting with some functionaries, or that he was
14 attending a meeting or that someone had come to see him
15 for a meeting. So this was the kind of story I heard.
16 On the basis of such accounts, I understood that Zejnil
17 was holding some sort of a function, that he was able to
18 help me.
19 Q. Did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic from before the war?
20 A. Yes, I did. I knew Zejnil. We were friends.
21 Q. You indicate that after you then decided that you would
22 call Mr. Delalic. Could you tell us exactly what happened
23 when you first tried to call Zejnil Delalic?
24 A. I called Zejnil on the phone at home. His secretary
25 answered, and when I introduced myself she said that
1 Zejnil had a meeting and that I should call him again
2 about 7.00 in the evening, which I did. When I called
3 him at 7.00 --
4 Q. Let me just interrupt. Do you know the name of the
5 secretary with whom you talked?
6 A. I do, Mirjana Buselic.
7 Q. Did you also know her from before the war?
8 A. Only by sight. We did not say hello to one another, but
9 I knew her name.
10 Q. Please continue with what happened when you called back
11 at 7.00.
12 A. When I called back at 7.00 Zejnil answered, the
13 secretary did not answer the phone, but it was Zejnil
14 himself. He was probably expecting my call. At first
15 Zejnil was cordial and he asked me how I was, how my
16 children were, and then I started crying and asked him,
17 "Zejnil, why is my Petko in prison for two months?"
18 I told him I had been to the prison that day and that
19 I had seen him and that he was in a very bad condition
20 and that he would die there. Then he said to me,
21 "Gordana, I do not understand anything any more. When
22 Bradina fell, I called Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic and told
23 him that(redacted) and Dr. Grubac should return to
24 the health centre and work there, and Doctor
25 Jusufbegovic said that colleagues would not accept
1 (redacted)that Dr. Grubac had stated he wanted to
2 treat the Chetniks in Celebici".
3 Then I said, "how could anybody normal agree to be
4 there to treat those people? If he needs to treat them,
5 he can do that going there from his own home". Then he
6 said he would talk to my husband and that he would call
7 me up after he had spoken to him.
8 Q. Please continue with what happened next.
9 A. Yes. That evening, Zejnil did not call. I was
10 disappointed. I thought that he would not help me, and
11 then I realised that I had to insist, and the next day
12 I called him up again and his secretary told me that
13 Zejnil had an important meeting that evening, that some
14 people had come and that he was unable to go and visit
15 my husband, but that he would do that in the course of
16 the day, and that I should call up again somewhere
17 towards evening, and that she would be able to tell me
18 more. So I waited.
19 Q. Did she tell you anything else about whether or not she
20 had been given any instructions relating to your
22 A. Afterwards when I called up again to see what was
23 happening, she said, "Zejnil has just left to visit your
24 husband in the camp", and that he had told her to
25 prepare the release papers, and that he would be
1 released, (redacted), perhaps in a
2 day or two.
3 Q. Was your husband released?
4 A. He was released that same evening.
5 Q. After your husband's release, did you ever have occasion
6 to see Mr. Zejnil Delalic again?
7 A. Yes. We insisted, and then one evening Zejnil invited
8 us to come and visit him. It was upon our request, we
9 had asked to be received. The reason for the visit was
10 to ask Zejnil to help my husband, my children and me to
11 leave the town.
12 Q. Please continue, ma'am?
13 A. Then we were guests at Zejnil's. There was no one else
14 present except Zejnil, my husband and me. We spent
15 several hours there talking to him. We told Zejnil the
16 reason for our visit, and he said that he could not do
17 us that service. He could exchange my husband because
18 he had been in the prison, but as I and the children had
19 not been in prison he could not arrange for us to leave
20 the town, but he offered my husband to work in the
21 hospital in Igman and the hospital in Tarcin and my
22 husband would not agree to that.
23 Since we saw that we had little chance of getting
24 out of the town, then Zejnil offered as a first step to
25 have our apartment vacated. When we left we were to see
1 what would happen, whether he should go back to work or
2 not, but he could not do us this service of arranging
3 for us to leave the town; that is what he said.
4 Q. During your time at Mr. Delalic's house that evening, was
5 there any discussion of Mr. Delalic's position at that
7 A. He spoke about some exchange of letters with Serbs from
8 the Boracko Lake. He was telling us about a fax.
9 I think the essence of it was that they had threatened
10 one another, the Serbs from Lake Borci had threatened
11 them and they had threatened the Serbs and he showed us
12 this piece of paper on the top of which it said "Zejnil
13 Delalic, commander of the tactical group". He also
14 showed us newspapers where Croats, I think, had issued a
15 warrant for Mr. Delalic, and there the big heading in
16 capital letters said "Zejnil Delalic, commander of
17 Tactical Group 1" and that is how we saw the post that
18 Zejnil held.
19 Q. I am sorry, you may have said this before. If you know,
20 can you tell us approximately when this meeting with
21 Mr. Delalic was?
22 A. I think it was at the end of September roughly. I know
23 it was maybe seven or ten days before they came and
24 arrested my husband, and they arrested us on 4th October
1 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have no further questions for
2 this witness. Thank you.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?
4 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honours. We will proceed in this
5 way. First counsel for Mr. Delalic, second counsel for
6 Mr. Mucic, third counsel for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel
7 for Mr. Landzo.
8 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr.s Grubac. I am Edina Residovic,
10 Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
11 In answer to a question from the Prosecution, you
12 said that before the war you had worked as a bank
13 employee in Konjic; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So by occupation you are an economics technician. Your
16 family name is Djordjic, is it not, your maiden name?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Djordjic is a family that is quite widespread in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But all the Djordjics are not closely related to you?
22 A. No.
23 Q. As a member of a prestigious family in Konjic, you
24 probably knew many people in Konjic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You certainly knew, just before the war, the acting
2 director of the health centre, Mr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Jusufbegovic was your best man, was he not?
5 A. He was.
6 Q. You have just told us that your children and your
7 parents, who also had an apartment in Konjic, were taken
8 to the family home of your parents in Bradina?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the time, Mr.s Grubac, some HOS units appeared who
11 were accomodated at the motel in Konjic; is that not
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. That was one of the reasons that you felt that it would
15 be better to find shelter for your children, because you
16 were expecting some adverse developments.
17 A. Yes, one of the reasons.
18 Q. However, you were aware that because of these and other
19 reasons, many Serbs from Konjic were retreating towards
20 Borci and Bradina.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Actually, one might say that at that time there was a
23 massive exodus of the Serb population from the town of
25 A. Not only of the Serb population but also the Muslim and
1 Croatian population who went in the direction of
2 Croatia; in other words everybody was fleeing from
4 Q. Actually, after the events in Sarajevo people felt the
5 imminent danger of war and people were looking for safer
6 places to stay?
7 A. Probably.
8 Q. I do not know whether you as a woman know that in mid
9 April a general mobilisation was proclaimed in Konjic,
10 but you probably know that the authorities would not
11 allow able bodied men to leave Konjic.
12 A. No, I do not know anything about that.
13 Q. But you probably do know that MUP controlled exits from
14 the town?
15 A. I do not know that. I know that already in March or the
16 end of March on the way out of the town in the direction
17 of Mostar, there was a roadblock but it was not manned
18 by MUP. That roadblock was controlled by Miralem
19 Duracic, who was not employed in the MUP.
20 Q. However, you know that at the time, a reserve police
21 force was being formed, so perhaps some of those people
22 belonged to the reserve force?
23 A. I do not know whether a man such a Miralem Duracic could
24 have been a member of the reserve police force.
25 Q. Very well, Mrs. Grubac. Let me not ask you questions you
1 do not know the answers to. We will leave them out.
2 A. Very well.
3 Q. Since in April 1992 you were still in Konjic and you
4 were able to listen to the news and as far as I know you
5 are a family that was interested in developments around
6 you, you must have heard that in April 1992, at Lake
7 Borci, Serb groups or forces had arrested the President
8 of the municipality, Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic, and the
9 President of the SDA, Mr. Drago Peric?
10 A. I had heard that, but I heard that the reason for the
11 arrest was that the Muslims and Croats had already put
12 up roadblocks in the direction of Lake Borci and they
13 would not allow Serbs to exit the town in that
14 direction. I heard that as soon as they removed the
15 roadblocks they released Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic.
16 That was the story I heard.
17 Q. Since you answered my question at greater length, you
18 have also answered the next question I was going to put
19 to you, that is the reason of the arrest. The Serb
20 authorities gave as the reason the formation of
21 roadblocks and checkpoints preventing able bodied men
22 from leaving the town in the direction of Lake Borci?
23 A. Not just able bodied men but all Serbs were not allowed
24 to leave Konjic. They would not let women or children
25 go out either.
1 Q. After this, the Serbs could go where they wanted.
2 A. In the direction of Lake Borci and Bradina, yes.
3 Q. But I am going back to my previous question. Does this
4 remind you now, Mrs. Grubac, of the fact that there was a
5 decision in view of the immediate threat of war and the
6 proclamation of a general mobilisation, to prohibit
7 anybody leaving the town?
8 A. No, I cannot recall that.
9 Q. You only remember this.
10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am sorry for interrupting, but
11 if I could just respectfully request you ask the witness
12 to pause before answering my learned colleague, because
13 I am having a hard time following between the questions
14 and answers.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you tell the witness to wait until
16 her answer has been interpreted before she speaks
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mrs. Grubac, I have to warn you, I usually
19 do that before I start my cross-examination, so
20 I apologise for not doing that this time; namely we
21 understand one another very well, so it seems normal to
22 you to answer my question immediately and vice versa.
23 However, both my question and your answer have to be
24 interpreted for everybody in the courtroom to be able to
25 follow what is happening, so I ask you, you have
1 earphones on which you can hear the English
2 interpretation so that when I finish my question, will
3 you wait to hear the end of the interpretation before
4 answering it and this will facilitate our work in the
6 Let me continue. So after that time, many Serbs
7 from the town of Konjic went to Borci and Bradina, and
8 they stayed there on their own, only Serbs were there.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The inhabitants of other ethnic groups from the broader
11 area of Borci, you may not know this, but from the area
12 of Bradina also retreated either to Konjic or somewhere
14 A. In Bradina, there may have been only one family that was
15 Muslim, I think that was it. There were only two or
16 three Croatian households and they stayed on in Bradina
17 throughout. They did not retreat, they were there. As
18 for Lake Borci, I do not know.
19 Q. In your statement given to the investigator of the
20 office of the Prosecution -- let me check the date -- on
21 21st February 1996, you stated that at the beginning of
22 May Konjic had been shelled from the direction of
24 A. I said that I went to work on that day and that my
25 colleagues at work told me that three shells had fallen
1 from Borci, one fell into Neretva and two into the hill
2 above the catholic church. That is what I was told by
3 my colleagues.
4 Q. If I have understood you well, Mrs. Grubac. You said
5 that after the May day holidays you went to work for the
6 first time on May 5th?
7 A. And the last time I went to work was May 7th and that is
8 when they told me that these shells had fallen, the day
9 before, I think.
10 Q. Very well. In connection with your acquaintance with
11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, allow me to ask a few questions now,
12 because we will probably have to continue the
13 cross-examination tomorrow. Actually, you testified
14 before this Trial Chamber that you knew his brother
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you confirm that his brother was a patient of your
19 A. I do not think that this brother was. I knew of the
20 younger brother, Sefik.
21 Q. Yes, but you can confirm that you knew Mr. Delalic also
22 because your husband as a doctor had treated members of
23 his family, his employer and his brother.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You can also confirm that Zejnil Delalic was a great
1 friend of your best man, Dr. Ahmed Jusufbegovic?
2 A. I cannot say that he was a very close friend, but I know
3 that they knew each other.
4 Q. You can also confirm that you too and your husband and
5 Dr. Jusufbegovic and Mr. Delalic would meet when
6 Mr. Delalic came to Konjic from abroad.
7 A. We were never together with our best man in the company
8 of Mr. Zejnil Delalic. We would visit Zejnil with some
9 common friends, Sejo Hajduk, but not with Ahmed
11 Q. Very well, but in any event you know that
12 Dr. Jusufbegovic was a friend of your husband's and also
13 a friend of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that on May you were unable to enter your
16 apartment because another family had moved in. If
17 I tell you that a family from the village of Gakici had
18 moved into your apartment; is that correct?
19 A. I do not know which village that family came from.
20 I just know their name, because when I went there for
21 the last time I saw written on the door of my apartment
22 in ink "army of BH Bajro Dzajic".
23 Q. Dzajic Bajro was not somebody you had known from before
24 from Konjic?
25 A. No.
1 Q. If I were to tell you that it was a family that was a
2 refugee and who came to Konjic as a refugee, would that
3 mean anything to you; is that correct?
4 A. I do not know.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, as I have a large group of
6 questions to address to the witness, perhaps it would be
7 best, if that is convenient for you, that we break now
8 and I resume the questions tomorrow morning.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think it is almost 5.30 pm. It
10 is convenient to stop at this stage. We will continue
11 tomorrow morning. Thank you.
12 (5.30 pm)
13 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)