Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6206

1 Thursday, 14th August 1997

2 (10.00 am)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

4 Can we have the witness now? We will have the

5 appearances first.

6 MR.. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and

7 I appear with my colleagues, Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and

8 Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the appearances for the

10 Defence?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Edina

12 Residovic and I am appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic. My co-counsel is my colleague Eugene

14 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zejnil Olujic,

16 counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Appearing on behalf of

17 Mr. Mucic with me is my colleague Mr. Michael Greaves.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

19 Karabdic from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of Hazim

20 Delic. My co-counsel is Mr. Thomas Moran from Houston

21 Texas.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your honours, my name is John

23 Ackerman and I appear for Esad Landzo along with my

24 co-counsel Cynthia McMurray. I would like to make a

25 note at this point that today, Pakistan is celebrating

Page 6207

1 its 50th anniversary of independence and I wanted to

2 congratulate Judge Jan, and I know my other colleagues

3 will join me in my congratulation.

4 JUDGE JAN: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly tell the witness she is still

6 under oath.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Mrs. Grubac, may I remind you you are still

8 under oath.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, continue with your

10 cross-examination.

11 Gordana Grubac (continued)

12 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

13 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.

14 I hope that you have managed to rest a bit better since

15 we are having a cooler spell, and the warnings that we

16 mutually exchanged yesterday still apply today, so

17 please be so kind to listen to the translation of our

18 words.

19 Mrs. Grubac, as your parents had a family house in

20 Bradina, you probably know well the area of Bradina, is

21 that not a fact?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And you know that the hamlets in Bradina are on the

24 slopes of a mountain, is that not so?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6208

1 Q. And that in the area there are very many isolated

2 houses, family homes, which are isolated on the various

3 hillocks?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you can agree with me that after the fighting in

6 Bradina when the men had mostly been taken away, that it

7 was quite risky under such circumstances for families,

8 especially women and children, to remain in such houses,

9 can you not?

10 A. In the houses in Bradina women could not remain because

11 the houses had been burnt down, most of the houses had

12 been burnt down.

13 Q. Thank you. Probably one of the reasons why -- that is

14 probably one of the reasons why you as well as many

15 other peoples tried to go down to Bradina to stay with

16 relatives?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It is in that sense that I understood that you, together

19 with the bestman at your wedding, Drago Pavlovic, went

20 down to the city of Konjic three days later, and since

21 you were unable to enter your flat you stayed for a

22 month as a house guest, you and your children at the

23 apartment of Mr. Drago Pavlovic, is that so?

24 A. Yes, I was there but other women were unable to leave

25 the school in which they had been locked up.

Page 6209

1 Q. Please, Mrs. Grubac, is it correct that the reason for

2 your staying in the apartment of Drago Pavlovic in

3 addition to the reasons which you have already adduced,

4 was also the fact that he was living in the neighbour

5 hood of Bozo Lokas, who was the uncle of Mr. Goran Lokas?

6 A. That was one of the reasons, one of them.

7 Q. You knew Goran Lokas who, before the war, was the

8 presiding judge of the court and you heard at the time

9 that he was also the chairman of the commission for the

10 interrogation of detainees in Celebici; is that not so?

11 A. I did not know that he was the chairman of that

12 commission. I did know, however, that he had some role

13 in the commission. I was not aware of exactly what role

14 he had. I did not know.

15 Q. Mrs. Grubac, you wanted to establish contact with him as

16 a friend, as well as a man who was influential, had some

17 influence, because it was common knowledge probably at

18 the time that Goran Lokas had helped release a number of

19 prisoners from Celebici; is that correct?

20 A. I knew that Goran was in this commission and that he

21 wanted to help Serbs in Konjic.

22 Q. However, regrettably at that time you were unable to do

23 that because Goran Lokas had been in a traffic accident

24 and was no longer in Konjic; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6210

1 Q. I shall now ask you about some other things to which you

2 have testified in court, namely you have said that you

3 went to visit your husband a day prior to his release

4 and that on your way back from Celebici, you and your

5 sister-in-law missed the train which went between

6 Jablanica and Konjic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I want to ask you, you know that when you got to Konjic

9 a certain time after your arrival somewhere in the

10 beginning of June, this train started -- the traffic of

11 this train between Jablanica and Tarcin was resumed?

12 A. It did run. I do not know when it started running.

13 I know that it ran from Jablanica to Konjic.

14 Q. You went to Celebici aboard that train?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that train was free of charge for all the passengers

17 at the time, was it not?

18 A. Yes, it was.

19 Q. And everyone who so wished, irrespective of ethnic

20 background or any other affiliation, could ride on that

21 train, could they not?

22 A. Yes, they could.

23 Q. And you also know that for the establishment of the

24 operation of that train, Mr. Delalic had a prominent role

25 to play in the reestablishment of the operation of that

Page 6211

1 train and so that train was also dubbed a certain name,

2 was it not?

3 A. I am not aware of any such thing.

4 Q. Yes, thank you. As you missed that train and there was

5 no regular traffic you set out on foot, and as you have

6 testified before this Tribunal, when you were passing by

7 the house of Zejnil Delalic you saw a lot of soldiers

8 there and dogs, and that reminded you that perhaps

9 Zejnil Delalic could be at home. This is what you

10 testified to, is it not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You also said that as you were friends in a certain way

13 and also associated with his brother Sefik, you actually

14 knew that at that time Zejnil Delalic was in Konjic only

15 very seldom.

16 A. Yes, that is so.

17 Q. That is why you opted -- rather it occurred to you to

18 make use of the fact that you knew that he was in Konjic

19 at that time to give him a call?

20 A. I waited for Zejnil to come to Konjic because his

21 brother talked me into it, into calling Zejnil once he

22 came to Konjic and then I made use of that opportunity

23 to do that.

24 Q. Yes, thank you. You have described in detail before

25 this court the telephone conversation which you had

Page 6212

1 conducted with Mr. Delalic and I have no further

2 questions on that score, but I should like to ask you,

3 on the basis of that conversation, did you gather that

4 Zejnil wanted to help you, that he would help you if he

5 could?

6 A. Yes, on the basis of the conversation, I thought that he

7 would help me to the effect that he would be released

8 from prison.

9 Q. Very well, thank you. Mrs. Grubac, so it was somewhere

10 in the beginning of June that you came to Konjic again,

11 and probably it was then when you came that you saw that

12 Konjic, in the period in which you had been absent,

13 which is to say from 7th May to the date of your

14 arrival, had already been damaged from the shelling very

15 much.

16 A. After my arrival from Bradina I could not see that in

17 the part of town in which I was there, there were no

18 visible consequences of shelling and that was the

19 beginning of June, and the section in which I was is the

20 railway station area, and that part of the city is

21 called Trsanica. That part of the city was damaged only

22 very slightly at the time as far as I could see after

23 coming from Bradina. This is at the very entrance to

24 the town from the direction of Bradina, this Trsanica

25 section of the city.

Page 6213

1 Q. Can I ask you what day it was you came?

2 A. It was 28th, I think, of May, three days after visiting

3 Bradina, or perhaps in the beginning of June. In

4 between that period, perhaps, from 28th May to beginning

5 of June, I cannot be sure.

6 Q. However, later while you stayed in Konjic you were also

7 a witness of severe shelling of the city?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And on 4th June, it was precisely that quarter, that

10 section, the department store and the area around there

11 which was subjected to heavy shelling, if you can

12 remember.

13 A. Yes, there were shells landing.

14 Q. In view of that fact and everything which transpired,

15 you could feel an anti-Serb mood gaining foothold in the

16 city among the ordinary people?

17 A. I could feel that before that shelling also, even during

18 the time when I was still working and towards the end of

19 April when I went to work.

20 Q. You could also see for yourself that very many refugees

21 from various parts of eastern Hercegovina, eastern

22 Bosnia, had come to the city and the mix of the

23 population had changed quite a lot?

24 A. Yes, I could see refugees.

25 Q. And you noticed that even some friends of yours were

Page 6214

1 averse to communicating with you?

2 A. Not averse, they did not communicate with me at all.

3 They just would not communicate with me at all.

4 Q. But as you testified yesterday, there were people

5 anyway, there were some individuals who had not changed

6 their attitude towards you as acquaintances or friends.

7 A. Two or three individuals, very few.

8 Q. And you knew that these people, because of that, were

9 subjected to various harassment, to various gossip, even

10 on the part of their own fellow citizens?

11 A. They were with me only very infrequently, and in a very

12 discreet fashion, shall I say. They were not all that

13 conspicuous, you know.

14 Q. But precisely on account of that risk, of the danger

15 because the milieu would then proclaim them to be fifth

16 columnists, that is why?

17 A. Yes, that is the way I perceive it in respect of these

18 particular people and I had no explanation as regards

19 the others and their behaviour.

20 Q. Mrs. Grubac, you have said that after a number of

21 attempts, somewhere around the second half of September,

22 or perhaps if I calculate the days according to what you

23 have said, perhaps after 20th September, you and your

24 husband went to Mr. Delalic for a sitting, as we would

25 put it.

Page 6215

1 A. Yes, that is so.

2 Q. However, it is also true that prior to that date you had

3 also endeavoured to establish this second contact with

4 Mr. Delalic, but at the time he was always somewhere in

5 the war theatre, was he not?

6 A. That is not so. When we decided to pay a visit to

7 Zejnil, that was only a day before that date, not

8 earlier.

9 Q. That evening when you came to Mr. Zejnil Delalic's house,

10 you were received as acquaintances and as friends, is

11 that not so? His attitude towards you was the kind of

12 attitude one has towards acquaintances and friends?

13 A. Yes, it was.

14 Q. Did you stay there and engage in a normal conversation,

15 friendly conversation, which lasted for almost four

16 hours?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You have said before this Tribunal what the topics of

19 your conversation were and what the actual cause for

20 your visit was, so I shall not enquire about that. That

21 is definitely in the transcript. You have also

22 testified that Mr. Delalic immediately told you that it

23 was very difficult, was very unlikely that he would be

24 in a position to help you precisely in terms of what you

25 were asking for, but he did propose first of all to your

Page 6216

1 husband to come with me to Igman or to Tarcin if he was

2 not feeling safe enough where he was; is that a fact?

3 A. He said so, but we did not believe that he was unable to

4 help us. We did not believe him.

5 Q. Very well. You also said that he told you that he could

6 possibly help you in regard to the return of your flat.

7 A. Yes, he did say that, but he did not help us. If I can

8 explain a bit --

9 Q. You have explained to the court several days after that

10 you were arrested and probably you never encountered

11 Mr. Delalic any more after that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Connected to that particular conversation, I still have

14 one question. In the course of that talk, you found out

15 that he had departed from view, to quite an extent, from

16 many people, and you also saw the wanted warrant which

17 he showed you in a newspaper. However, what I would

18 like to know is: at a certain point when you were

19 talking about how he could help you, he also offered you

20 some funds and you said that you did not need it and you

21 thanked him, declining the offer; is that true?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. You have clarified that your husband was again arrested

24 in the beginning of October by the MUP and it is true

25 that in the end of December Goran Blazovic, an officer

Page 6217

1 of the HVO, released you this time from prison?

2 A. He took us out of prison and ipso facto, I believe that

3 he released us.

4 Q. When you left the prison, you probably heard that Zejnil

5 Delalic had left Konjic and then you certainly also

6 heard, and perhaps also watched on television, a

7 programme which was made by Sagolj with Jasmin Guska in

8 which Zejnil was accused of collaborating with the KOS

9 and escaping on a Chetnik helicopter?

10 A. I only know Zejnil left Konjic and he left it while we

11 were still in prison. I heard this from the guards that

12 were watching us. As far as this programme is

13 concerned, I really do not know anything about it.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mrs. Grubac, thank you very much. I believe

15 that you have said in the sincerest of fashions what you

16 knew about -- what you know about the events which are

17 the subject of this hearing.

18 A. Thank you, ma'am.

19 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, please.

21 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

22 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good morning, Mrs. Grubac.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. For several days you have been in The Hague together

25 with your husband, but I hope we will finish this by the

Page 6218

1 end of the day. I am Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko

2 Mucic, I have several questions to put to you and

3 I would like to ask you to bear in mind the previous

4 remarks made regarding the technical matters, that you

5 also wait for my questions to be interpreted before

6 giving your answers so that everyone in the courtroom

7 can follow the proceedings. I hope we understand one

8 another.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Mrs. Grubac, tell me please, in the course of

11 your direct examination you said that before the attacks

12 started and before the unfortunate war occurred in the

13 territory of the former state, that you were working in

14 a bank; is that correct?

15 A. It is.

16 Q. Did you work anywhere else in the course of your career

17 except the bank?

18 A. Yes, in the social accounting service of Konjic.

19 Q. So your career was always linked to banks, social

20 accounting, banks and so on?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you left Konjic and Bradina, now that you have left

23 that area, do you come across people from Bradina

24 nowadays, people who were forced to leave?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 6219

1 Q. Do you meet people from Celebici camp, former detainees?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Do you talk to them about your native area?

4 A. Of course we do. That is what hurts us most.

5 Q. Do you talk to them about the events from the past war?

6 A. Certainly, that is the main topic of our conversations.

7 Q. Is anyone taking care of those people? Is there some

8 kind of an Association of Detainees which concerns

9 itself with the fate of the former detainees?

10 A. There is an association, but I do not know what you mean

11 by caring for them. It does not give them financial

12 aid, it has not found accommodation for them. It is

13 just an association that the detainees collaborate with

14 because of The Hague Tribunal, nothing more.

15 Q. What about the authorities? Do they care for them?

16 A. No one cares for them any more.

17 Q. Can it be said that these people have been betrayed, in

18 a sense?

19 A. I do not know what the word betrayal implies in this

20 case.

21 Q. When no one takes care of them.

22 A. They take care of themselves.

23 Q. Mrs. Grubac, were you a member of the communist party or

24 the League of Communists of Yugoslavia?

25 A. Yes, I was, since the age of 18.

Page 6220

1 Q. In the course of your testimony, you said with reference

2 to Dr Hadzihuseinovic that he benefitted from his

3 manifestation of extremist tendencies.

4 A. I do not know that I said that. I do not know what you

5 mean by "benefit".

6 Q. Did you ever think that he might gain from demonstrating

7 extremist tendencies?

8 A. No, I was surprised why he agreed to lead a nationalist

9 party.

10 Q. He was the mayor, was he not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And who was the mayor before him?

13 A. I cannot recall exactly. I do not know. I know that

14 Tomo Kures played an active role in politics and some

15 other people, but to be frank, I really cannot tell you,

16 I cannot remember that.

17 Q. Mrs. Grubac, could it be said that due to everything that

18 happened quite a number of Serbs lost their posts and

19 property due to the war and the atrocities that occurred

20 there; can that be said?

21 A. The Serbs lost everything with this war, their land ...

22 Q. Could you list a few of the most important people who

23 lost their positions?

24 A. It is not the positions that count, it is human lives.

25 They have lost their dearest ones, which is most

Page 6221

1 important of all, and then after that they have lost

2 everything, their identity -- I am sorry, I am a bit

3 upset. They have lost everything, everything. We are

4 people without a past.

5 Q. You worked in a bank, in the social accounting service,

6 this was a very significant position. You were a member

7 of the communist party. Were you active in society, in

8 politics before the war?

9 A. No, except for being a member of the party, I was not

10 acting in politics at all.

11 Q. You are familiar with Mr. Drago Peric?

12 A. I just knew him because his wife was my teacher.

13 Q. Mrs. Grubac, who had the majority as an ethnic group in

14 Konjic at the time in 1992?

15 A. The Muslims were in the majority. There were more than

16 50 per cent of them. I do not know the exact personal

17 share, but I know they had more than 50 per cent of the

18 population.

19 Q. In your examination-in-chief you said that you were from

20 Bradina, that that is where your parents' house was; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So you know Bradina well?

24 A. I could say that I do know it.

25 Q. You said that all the houses in Bradina were burnt, is

Page 6222

1 that true?

2 A. During the first attack, they were not all burnt down.

3 Very few houses remained.

4 Q. Could you list us the owners of the houses that were

5 burnt down, if you can?

6 A. Bradina is a large village and it is difficult to give

7 you the names of all the owners of the houses. It is

8 impossible. I can manage some names, but Djordjics, the

9 Gligorevics, the Kuljanins.

10 Q. When Bradina was attacked, is it true that there were

11 about 3,000 attackers?

12 A. I heard that later, I do not know the exact number, but

13 they said there were about 3,000 of them. This was the

14 story going round Konjic afterwards.

15 Q. So you do not have direct knowledge, it is only what you

16 heard?

17 A. Yes, it is only what I heard.

18 Q. How many people were defending Bradina?

19 A. There may have been between 200 and 300 people, because

20 there were no more men than that in all.

21 Q. Did the defendants have military equipment?

22 A. No uniforms, but they had some weapons, some rifles and

23 things.

24 Q. In addition to rifles?

25 A. I could not tell you, I know of what I saw in my part of

Page 6223

1 the village.

2 Q. You lived in Konjic before the war; your husband is a

3 psychiatrist, so you were a person moving around in the

4 Konjic society. You are a family that enjoys respect.

5 Can you tell us the name of the JNA commander in Konjic

6 until the JNA left?

7 A. No, I really do not know. I was not active in politics

8 and therefore did not consider it important to know who

9 was the commander, so I really could not tell you.

10 Q. So you do not know who was the commander nor what ethnic

11 group he belonged to?

12 A. No, I do not know at all who was the commander of the

13 JNA.

14 Q. Did you know any officers in the Konjic garrison?

15 A. No, I do not think so.

16 Q. Mrs. Grubac, could you please tell me, you know

17 Mr. Zdravko Mucic, do you not?

18 A. I knew Zdravko Mucic only by sight. We did not even

19 greet each other when we saw each other in the street.

20 That is how much we knew each other.

21 Q. When did you have your first contact with him?

22 A. I contacted him for the first time in the camp.

23 Q. How did he receive you, Mr. Mucic? Was he courteous, was

24 he arrogant, was he ready to help you?

25 A. I can say that he was cordial.

Page 6224

1 Q. In the course of your direct examination, you said that

2 Mr. Mucic said that Jusufbegovic was the one who had sent

3 your husband to the camp; is that so?

4 A. In answer to my husband's question, "have you contacted

5 Mr. Jusufbegovic" and Pavo intervened and said, "do you

6 not know who it was who sent you to prison?" I think he

7 implied Jusufbegovic and Rusmir.

8 Q. From this contact you had with Mr. Mucic in the camp, do

9 you believe that he had the power to release your

10 husband himself, or did that depend on other people?

11 A. I did not think about that at the time, because I knew

12 Pavo too superficially to be able to ask him to do

13 something like that for me.

14 Q. Mrs. Grubac, can it be said that you have nothing bad to

15 say about Mr. Mucic?

16 A. He was in the camp and he should have known that people

17 were killed in the camp and he should have done

18 something to help those people to prevent them being

19 beaten up.

20 Q. But judging from your own contact?

21 A. No, there is nothing bad I can say about those contacts.

22 Q. Thank you. Can it be said, Mrs. Grubac, that Mr. Delalic

23 and Mr. Mucic and later other people who helped you,

24 were, in a sense, ostracised because of this in their

25 own environment?

Page 6225

1 A. Mr. Pavo and Mr. Delalic did not do anything to help us,

2 because Konjic as a whole was a camp for the Serbs. So

3 the only assistance that anyone could give us was to

4 help us get out of the town, and nobody did that.

5 Q. What do you want to say when you say "Konjic was a

6 camp"?

7 A. Let me explain. My husband was under house arrest, even

8 after his release from the camp. He could not move

9 around anywhere. Secondly, whoever wanted to could

10 arrest us, imprison us, give us nothing to eat. Nobody

11 gave anything to the Serbs, and this is obvious from the

12 fact that two days (sic) after my husband was released,

13 we were captured again and held in prison for two months

14 and my children were alone. My son who is 18, his hair

15 is half grey, so I think that the only assistance that

16 we would have wanted was to get out of that town.

17 Q. So there was no great difference between Konjic and the

18 camp at Celebici?

19 A. Nobody beat them, but they were under house arrest.

20 Q. So you feel that Konjic, too, was a camp because of

21 restricted freedom of movement?

22 A. We could not even leave our houses -- not leave town,

23 but we could not get out, could not go out. We were

24 given I think to eat -- there was no institution to give

25 the Serbs flour or food. If we did not have some money,

Page 6226

1 we would have starved to death.

2 Q. Mrs. Grubac, do you know that Mr. Mucic advised your

3 husband to leave Konjic and your husband refused?

4 A. I am not aware of that. This is the first time I hear

5 of it.

6 Q. Mrs. Grubac, can you confirm that the quieter ones that

7 Mr. Mucic belonged to were against violence, and that as

8 a result they were at risk in their own environments?

9 This is similar to a question I have already put to

10 you. What is your own personal impression? If you do

11 not know, say that, please.

12 MS. McHENRY: If I may ask for clarification, I think there

13 may have been a translation issue, and I just do not

14 understand the question. The transcript says:

15 "Can you confirm that the quieter ones that

16 Mr. Mucic belonged to ..."

17 I just would ask --

18 JUDGE JAN: The quarter to which he belonged.

19 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.

20 A. I think that they did not prevent crime, and by not

21 preventing it, my opinion is that they condoned it.

22 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mrs. Grubac, I have no further

23 questions.

24 A. Thank you too.

25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, again it is going to take a second

Page 6227

1 to get me plugged in. May it please the court?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

3 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

4 Q. Your Honour, I would ask to go into private session for

5 a couple of minutes. I want to talk about a subject

6 that is rather delicate.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us go into private session.

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20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (In open session)

25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we have no questions of this

Page 6230

1 witness. Thank you.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any re-examination?

3 Re-examined by MS. McHENRY

4 Q. Just briefly, your Honour and I think it may have been a

5 translation error. I did not know whether it would be

6 better to interrupt or ask. Ma'am, at least the English

7 translation of something you said in cross-examination,

8 I believe to Mr. Olujic, said that two days after your

9 husband was released from Celebici you and he were

10 arrested again. Did I understand that correctly?

11 JUDGE JAN: She said that, but actually it was two months.

12 Her husband was released at the end of July and

13 re-arrested in October. She said two days but meant two

14 months.

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. McHENRY: When you were re-arrested, when your husband

17 was re-arrested and you were arrested, were you brought

18 to Celebici or somewhere else where you then stayed for

19 several months?

20 A. They took us to the MUP in Konjic, the police station in

21 Konjic.

22 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of your questioning.

24 You are discharged. You can go. Thank you very much.

25 A. Thank you.

Page 6231

1 (The witness withdrew)

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is convenient for us to take

3 the motion for protective measures.

4 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: For the witness to come.

6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, with respect to the motion we have

7 filed in this matter, I just wish to make a correction

8 and a clarification if I may in relation to the written

9 motion before I make any oral submissions on the

10 matter. Your Honours, firstly in paragraph 1, there is

11 a reference to documents not being disclosed to the

12 public and media. That is slightly imprecise in the way

13 it is expressed there, your Honour. It should relate to

14 if in the event of any photograph or sketch or some such

15 matter in relation to the witness, should it ever be

16 produced, that it not be released. It is fairly

17 unlikely, I would imagine, that that would occur.

18 Also in relation to paragraph 2 of the relief

19 requested, on page 3 of the motion, your Honours, there

20 is a reference there to image and voice altering

21 devices. In fact, the relief requested is merely for

22 image altering devices. There is no request by the

23 Prosecution for voice altering devices in relation to

24 this witness.

25 Your Honours, I do not think it is necessary for

Page 6232

1 me to ask to go into private session at this stage in

2 relation to the application, but it could do at some

3 stage in the course of it. If that occurs because of

4 some matter that arises, I will seek your Honour's leave

5 to do that, but simply the basis of the application is

6 this, that the witness came to The Hague on the weekend

7 of 10th August, which was last weekend, and soon after

8 he arrived here he sought this measure of protection

9 which is contained in the motion we have filed. The

10 witness is not seeking any other restriction, the

11 transcript -- he is not seeking any restriction in

12 relation to that. He is not seeking any restriction in

13 relation to his name or identity in that sense. It

14 merely is the visual presentation of his face that he is

15 concerned about.

16 Your Honours, he has said that he is in a part of

17 Bosnia at the moment where there is a movement of

18 peoples back into the area, and he has a wife and child

19 and he considers that him giving evidence of the matters

20 that happened to him, circumstances that he was placed

21 in in the Celebici camp may cause him or his wife to be

22 placed in danger.

23 Your Honours, these issues are very hard to

24 assess, but I think it is true there is a great deal of

25 instability in Bosnia-Herzegovina and particularly in

Page 6233

1 certain parts of it at the moment, and the Prosecution

2 certainly has the view that the fear that he has is real

3 fear and is justified in the circumstances, particularly

4 in relation to the part of Bosnia where he is.

5 This witness is an important witness to the

6 Prosecution case. He gives direct eyewitness testimony

7 of matters which go to central parts of the Prosecution

8 case and to specific counts in the indictment. There is

9 no evidence to suggest that the witness is anything but

10 a trustworthy witness; indeed that criteria which was

11 set out in the five criteria in both the Tadic case,

12 which was adopted also in the Blaskic case, is probably

13 not of great relevance, having regard to the fact that

14 this is not an application for anonymity. It is merely

15 an application for the restriction on the level of

16 publication.

17 There is, as I mentioned, I think, yesterday,

18 considerable constraints on the ability of the Tribunal

19 to provide witness protection once they leave this

20 Chamber. I repeat what I said in that respect in this

21 regard, that the most powerful protection that can be

22 awarded to a witness is in the Chamber itself, and once

23 they leave the Chamber it diminishes at a rapid rate

24 until they go back to the place where they came from.

25 If one is to be afforded the maximum protection that one

Page 6234

1 can get, it is in fact during the course of the evidence

2 and while they are here in The Hague.

3 Finally, your Honours, in relation to the

4 criteria, the measure that is sought is the least

5 restrictive measure in relation to publicity that is

6 sought. When I say least restrictive, it does not

7 entail any significant constraints on publication,

8 merely the publication of the face. As was observed,

9 your Honours, in other cases relating to this question,

10 the notion of public hearing and a fair trial must be

11 interpreted, in our submission, in the context of the

12 rather unique object and purpose of this Tribunal,

13 namely that it is operating in an environment where,

14 unlike, for example, the Nuremberg Tribunal, there is no

15 direct control over what can happen in the former

16 Yugoslavia where the witnesses live. Because of that

17 lack of control, which was not the case in relation to

18 Nuremberg, the allied powers had control and could

19 enforce their will. That is certainly not the case

20 here. There is some measure of control, your Honours

21 would no doubt observe with relation to the Dayton

22 Agreement and the UNPROFOR but that, in our submission,

23 is far short of anything that was available during the

24 Nuremberg proceedings, and certainly it is a long, long

25 way short of what happens with respect to courts in

Page 6235

1 national jurisdictions where the court has at its

2 disposal such matters as police forces and the like.

3 In respect of that, your Honours, the measure

4 sought in relation to this witness is, in our

5 submission, the least restrictive that we could seek.

6 It is, in our submission, justified and unless I can

7 help your Honours with any other matter, it is our

8 submission that it is appropriate in these circumstances

9 to grant this measure of relief. As your Honours

10 please.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do the Defence have any views on that?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the only concern that I would

13 like to express is the indications are, and we still do

14 not have the material to prove it yet, but we have been

15 advised that the last witness who requested this

16 identical protection, Mr. Sudar, had, prior to leaving to

17 come here, given a full interview on Belgrade television

18 which was run immediately after his testimony here. If

19 this witness has done a similar thing and done a

20 television interview with Belgrade television or someone

21 else, then it begins to appear that coming here and

22 requesting this kind of protection is a bit gimmicky and

23 may be sort of a way to make themselves feel important,

24 "I went there and I got protection because I was so

25 important". If they are giving television interviews to

Page 6236

1 Belgrade television before they come here, then there is

2 not much need to give them even this level of

3 protection, it would seem to me.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I was just going to present

5 the same argument. I can understand that every witness

6 can refer to special circumstances and this court can

7 provide protective measures, but yesterday Mr. Ackerman

8 raised an important question at a private session, and

9 I think that we must all bear in mind that when a

10 witness goes back home he may be exposed to various

11 risks there.

12 However, in addition to these protective measures

13 transforming this trial into a secret trial, there is

14 also a danger that some witnesses, such as one who asked

15 for protection here, only a day later appeared under his

16 full name on Belgrade television. Thank you.

17 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, with all due respect for my

18 learned colleague on the Prosecution, any comparisons

19 with the Nuremberg trial and everything else, I think

20 that the spirit of the statute and the rules of

21 procedure and evidence require, above all else, that the

22 trial should be public. For the trial to be public it

23 also means that it should be fair. The introduction of

24 this kind of element as to whether a witness will have

25 protection or not, and then later on we learn that in

Page 6237

1 the mass media he is granting interviews, is simply a

2 way of undermining this honourable court. I would even

3 go so far as to say that it shows lack of respect, to

4 ask for protective measures in the courtroom, to engage

5 the technical services to give such protective measures,

6 and then to grant an interview on Belgrade television or

7 anywhere else, could in fact be described as contempt of

8 court, and that is why we are opposed to such a carte

9 blanche approach. Certainly, yes, for protective

10 measures when this is warranted, and, of course, we can

11 check the real need for it, but we would be against it

12 becoming the rule.

13 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honour, the Defence of Hazim Delic cannot

14 accept the reasons given by the Prosecution in their

15 motion. The return of refugees is one of the key

16 provisions of the peace accords, and it is the duty of

17 this Tribunal, too, to work for the maintenance of

18 peace, as it was established by the security council in

19 line with the provisions of Chapter 7 of the Charter.

20 To claim that the implementation of the Dayton Accords,

21 with respect to refugees has some effect especially in

22 view of the very limited number of refugees that are

23 going back, and it is quite obvious that he is living in

24 Republika Srpska, where very few refugees have returned

25 to, and to claim that he is running a risk going there

Page 6238

1 I think is really ridiculing the peace process in

2 itself, which would mean that the peace process, as

3 such, is a source of danger, and I think that such

4 arguments cannot be accepted and should be rejected.

5 MS. McMURREY: Just if I might be heard for one second.

6 There is one question that needs to be determined --

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You do not deserve to be heard after

8 Mr. Ackerman has spoken. You should have asked your lead

9 counsel if you should do that.

10 MS. McMURREY: So I am not going to be allowed to ask the

11 one question?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would prefer it that way.

13 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, your Honour.

14 JUDGE JAN: Did Sudar appear on Belgrade television after

15 appearing before us and seeking protection? This makes

16 the whole claim rather ridiculous.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I have not seen --

18 JUDGE JAN: Although I would say, just because one witness

19 has abused the concession granted to him, it does not

20 mean it should be denied to everyone else. This is a

21 very serious question.

22 MR. NIEMANN: It does, your Honour. I would indeed be very

23 disappointed if that happened, but I find it surprising

24 for it to be suggested by Mr. Olujic that it did happen,

25 considering that we made enquiries of the Victims and

Page 6239

1 Witnesses Unit; we were informed at the time that this

2 matter went to air in Belgrade, the witness was still in

3 The Hague and had not left, so it seems to us, your

4 Honour, that allegations of contempt and others -- if it

5 is correct he was still in The Hague at the time, is a

6 very serious thing to say of the witness, but we are

7 still pursuing our enquiries, because we want to find

8 out what the facts are, rather than rely on innuendo,

9 suggestion and rumour.

10 Your Honours, it is possible that this witness

11 gave an interview before he came to The Hague. That is

12 in itself an unfortunate thing, it is not something we,

13 the Prosecution, knew about. It is possible he gave an

14 interview beforehand, which is what Mr. Ackerman has

15 suggested, and that that was published afterwards. We

16 will pursue the matter and we will find out. In

17 relation to it, your Honours, you are quite right; it

18 should not be that because one witness does something

19 like that that all other witnesses should be punished as

20 a consequence of it. Certainly so far as we are

21 concerned, we do all we can to discourage this sort of

22 thing, particularly after the events, because it does

23 fly in the face of the court's order and it is most

24 unfortunate. Of course, as your Honours have realised

25 we have absolutely no control over it. If they do it

Page 6240

1 when they go back there, whether or not it amounts to

2 contempt, I would be very surprised.

3 Your Honours, the issue about secret trials in my

4 submission is really overstating the matter

5 considerably. This is not a question of a secret

6 trial. In most jurisdictions video links to the outside

7 mass media are unheard of, but the court is open, people

8 can come in here, sit in the gallery, listen to the

9 case, listen to the evidence. The only thing they are

10 prevented from seeing is the face. In my submission it

11 is no different to any other public hearing; there is no

12 restriction on the transcript or anything of the sort.

13 To suggest secret trials really is going too far. A

14 secret trial is if we shut the blinds down and nobody

15 could see it and the transcript was restricted. That is

16 not our submission. In my submission, that is a highly

17 exaggerated suggestion. Your Honours, unless I can

18 assist you with anything else.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just very briefly, I think I

20 failed a moment ago by being imprecise. What I was

21 trying to suggest, and apparently failed, was that

22 before the court makes a decision about the matter with

23 regard to this witness, we at least enquire whether or

24 not he has given such an interview prior to coming

25 here. If he has then it does not make any sense to give

Page 6241

1 him this protection. That is what I was trying to

2 suggest, and apparently did not do it well.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I share Mr. John Ackerman's

4 view, and it is a way of safeguarding whether such

5 interviews have been made, so before such applications

6 are brought, there should be an undertaking from any of

7 these witnesses that they have not conducted themselves

8 in that manner. So if they now do, that will amount to

9 a contempt of the Tribunal.

10 But otherwise, I do not think, in the

11 circumstances of this application -- we find that the

12 Prosecution did not know of it before now, it was

13 definitely not possible for them to have circulated the

14 application so that we can provide for these

15 exigencies. In any event, what it is now asking this

16 Trial Chamber to do is just to alter the image of the

17 witness and nothing more. His voice will be heard as it

18 is. Those who can recognise him by his voice will still

19 do so, and his identity will only be obscured to that

20 extent.

21 I do not know how the Trial Chamber can enforce

22 the third condition which you said, not taking his

23 photograph while he is "in the precincts of the

24 International Tribunal", because they would not have

25 known about this order. This order is just being made,

Page 6242

1 and whoever is freelance around here, and does not know

2 about this order, might proceed to do so. That is a

3 fairly difficult one for the Trial Chamber to

4 safeguard.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, and I would imagine that any

6 photographs taken thus far, or sketches drawn thus far,

7 of course, the order does not apply so it would not

8 operate in relation to that, and indeed, I would imagine

9 that if your Honour's order were made in relation to

10 paragraph 3 and was not known, it would be difficult as

11 well, but I am really talking more in the precincts of

12 the public gallery and in the Chamber itself.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Definitely in the Chamber we can

14 prevent that, but outside, "in the precincts of the

15 International Tribunal", that is not just in the

16 Chamber.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I understand, your Honour. In respect of that,

18 we would be content to amend it to say, "in the Chamber

19 of the International Tribunal", instead of the word

20 "precincts", if that makes it more effective in terms

21 of your Honours' powers to enforce.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In my view, it is safer to keep it

23 within paragraph 2 as amended.

24 MR. NIEMANN: That is the main thrust of our request, your

25 Honour, yes.

Page 6243

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the only thing we can do. If

2 we leave it to paragraph 2 then it covers it. If you

3 ask me too, I do not share the view it is a secret

4 trial, because if you can hear his voice clearly

5 everywhere, there is no secrecy about what is

6 happening. Thank you. We will grant the application.

7 JUDGE JAN: Do check up whether he has already made a

8 statement to the television.

9 MR. NIEMANN: I will certainly do that, your Honour. Might

10 I be excused to speak to the witness, your Honour?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please do. The Trial Chamber will now

12 have a break and come back at 11.45.

13 (11.15 am)

14 (A short break)

15 (11.45 am)

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, just two matters, if I may.

18 Firstly, dealing with the question of whether or not the

19 witness for whom I have just made application for

20 protective measures, Hristo Vukalo, has given interviews

21 in the past; he tells me he has not given an interview

22 in the past and he tells me he does not wish to give an

23 interview in the future and he will not do so, about the

24 testimony he is going to give.

25 The second issue your Honours is that we have been

Page 6244

1 investigating the question of whether Branko Sudar, the

2 one that was the previous witness that had protective

3 measures did in fact give an interview to Belgrade

4 television, since it was raised by the Defence to us the

5 other day. Not only did we ascertain as a consequence

6 of our enquiries that he was here at the time and could

7 not have done it then, but what we have now discovered,

8 your Honours, we have been informed by at least one

9 person who was watching Belgrade television, that there

10 was indeed a programme where Branko Sudar appeared, as

11 evidenced. It was in fact a take off the Tribunal's

12 broadcast which went to some British television studio

13 and was then sent to Belgrade that had the face

14 distortion which was applied by the technicians in this

15 Tribunal. So it was nothing more than an extract of his

16 evidence in this court. We are still continuing with

17 our enquiries in relation to that.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Apart from that, apart from Mr. Vukalo's

19 wish not to give any interviews, if you extract an

20 undertaking from him that he would not, that is quite a

21 different thing from his voluntary decision not to.

22 MR. NIEMANN: I did ask him, your Honour, whether he would be

23 prepared to give an undertaking not to do so and he told

24 me that he would.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With the Sudar thing, it is a difficult

Page 6245

1 thing to imagine why they would relay the network from a

2 British television --

3 MR. NIEMANN: It comes from the Tribunal, your Honour, out

4 through the outlets to British television apparently.

5 Then it was transmitted to Belgrade and apparently what

6 appeared on Belgrade television was exactly what

7 appeared here.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His distorted image, not an interview

9 he gave?

10 MR. NIEMANN: No, a reproduction of what appeared in the

11 Chamber.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Let us continue

13 with Mr. Vukalo.

14 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please. I call Mr. Vukalo.

15 Hristo Vukalo (sworn)

16 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can take your seat.

18 A. Thank you.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Would you please state your full name?

20 A. My name is Risto Vukalo.

21 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I should inform you that the court has

22 granted you certain protective measures in relation to

23 the giving of your testimony in these proceedings,

24 insofar as the image of your face by mechanical means

25 has been distorted on the television as it is

Page 6246

1 transmitted from the Tribunal. Do you understand that?

2 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.

3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, could you please give your place of birth?

4 A. I was born in Bjelovcina, in the municipality of Konjic.

5 Q. What is your date of birth?

6 A. I was born on 29th March in 1964.

7 Q. Where did you receive your education?

8 A. I completed four grades of elementary school in the

9 elementary school in Bjelovcina.

10 Q. Did you continue your education after that?

11 A. Yes, I did. Then I completed the rest of the grades, up

12 on the eighth grade of elementary school, in the town of

13 Konjic, in a school which was called is Zuonimir Nono

14 Belsa in Musala, and I completed secondary school also

15 in Konjic, machine technical school.

16 Q. At the machine technical school, were you given special

17 training in any particular profession or trade?

18 A. I became a mechanic to operate machine tools.

19 Q. Mr. Vukalo, did you do your military service with the

20 JNA?

21 A. Yes, I served my military service with the JNA as a

22 person of limited capacity, and this was due to my heart

23 surgery.

24 Q. When did you do your JNA training in the limited

25 capacity? What year, can you recall, approximately?

Page 6247

1 A. Yes, I can. I went to the army in 1984 in the month of

2 November. I do not remember the exact date. I served,

3 I completed my service in 1985 in December. It was a

4 full service term.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, what is your ethnic background?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. Prior to 1992, were you in employment?

8 A. Yes, I was.

9 Q. What was your employment?

10 A. I worked with a firm -- actually in a factory in

11 Slovenia. It was a Serb firm from Vranje. It was

12 called SZP.

13 Q. What was the main product produced by this firm? What

14 did they do?

15 A. I worked as a welder.

16 Q. Prior to 1992 where was your residence? Where did you

17 live?

18 A. Let me just say this, I found employment in 1990 at

19 Igman in Konjic, and I lived in Bjelovcina.

20 Q. Were you still working at Igman just prior to the

21 outbreak of military activity of 1992?

22 A. Yes, I was.

23 Q. Where were you living just prior to the outbreak of

24 military activity in 1992?

25 A. I was living in Bjelovcina.

Page 6248

1 Q. Were you married then?

2 A. Yes, and I have a child.

3 Q. Did you have an any children at that time?

4 A. Yes, it was four years old at the time.

5 Q. Sir, were you yourself engaged in any form of military

6 activity in the months leading up to the commencement of

7 military activity in 1992, in the early part of 1992?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Approximately when did you cease working?

10 A. Somewhere in the beginning of April they told us to go,

11 or perhaps it was in March. I am not quite sure.

12 Actually, we were assigned to the so-called waiting

13 list, saying that we were redundant, that there was no

14 work.

15 Q. This is the waiting list at the firm that you worked

16 for?

17 A. Yes, and not only I myself but many Serbs too.

18 Q. What were you doing between the period when you stopped

19 employment up until the commencement of military

20 activity?

21 A. I stayed at home, I worked the land.

22 Q. Can you remember when it was that the military activity

23 commenced in and around the area where you lived?

24 A. Before my village was attacked some checkpoints had been

25 erected on the approaches to the town of Konjic. They

Page 6249

1 were set up by the Muslim and Croat population.

2 Q. Are you able to give the Chamber an approximate month

3 when these checkpoints were first established in 1992?

4 A. When they were established exactly for the first time

5 I do not know, but I do know that there were checkpoints

6 in April, because I could not go to the town.

7 Q. Can you recall what date it was when Bjelovcina itself

8 was attacked?

9 A. It was attacked on 20th May 1992.

10 Q. Where were you when Bjelovcina was attacked?

11 A. On that day, with my father I was bringing the hay

12 inside the barn, and approximately around 4.00 or 5.00

13 pm, in the afternoon, firing could be heard from the

14 direction of the village of Donje Selo and Cerici, the

15 villages of Donje Selo and Cerici.

16 Q. When you heard this firing commence, what did you do?

17 A. I left whatever I was doing. I entered the house and my

18 father went in the direction of a meadow where we had

19 sheep to drive them back to their barn. I did not know

20 what was happening.

21 Q. Apart from your father, was anyone else with you at this

22 time?

23 A. My wife and my child were in the house, my mother and my

24 brother.

25 Q. As the firing and the military action intensified, did

Page 6250

1 you then seek shelter anywhere?

2 A. No, after some 40 minutes or so, firing started at my

3 hamlet from the five houses -- of the five houses which

4 were the household -- where the households all bear the

5 surnames of Vukalo. We could hear the firing and the

6 shooting at the houses and there was shooting at the

7 houses from the direction of the hill of Lovno, and from

8 the direction of the villages of Hasanovici and Balmis,

9 some 200 to 300 metres away from my hamlet.

10 Q. What happened? What did you do?

11 A. We were frightened, we were surprised. They shot at the

12 yards, at the houses, the children, the women, the

13 elderly and the sick. All were fleeing every which way,

14 actually towards the forest which was some 200 to 300

15 metres away from that place.

16 Q. Did you yourself flee into the forest?

17 A. Of course, with my wife and child and my mother and

18 brother, and the other neighbours, women and children

19 from among these five households.

20 Q. When you went into the forest, did you take any arms

21 with you, weapons?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you have any arms or weapons in the house at the

24 time of the attack?

25 A. No, I did not.

Page 6251

1 Q. How long did you stay in the forest?

2 A. Until the next morning.

3 Q. Then what did you do?

4 A. Early in the morning, I do not recall the exact hour, we

5 returned to our houses.

6 Q. Did that include your wife and child and your mother?

7 A. Yes, all of us.

8 Q. At that stage, did you see or know of anyone who was

9 defending the village against the people that were

10 attacking it?

11 A. My neighbourhood, my hamlet was away from the other

12 houses -- distanced from the other houses some 500 or

13 1,000 metres, up to 1 kilometre. I did not hear any

14 shooting coming from the village.

15 Q. At this stage did you know who it was that was attacking

16 the village?

17 A. When they were shooting at the houses they were

18 shrieking, singing, actually howling. It was clear to

19 me that they were -- I could make out that they were

20 saying some words like "Allah U Akbar".

21 Q. From those words did you deduce who these people were?

22 A. Yes, of course.

23 Q. Who was that?

24 A. They were Muslims and Croats from the nearby villages.

25 Q. Thank you. The village of Bjelovcina, can you tell us

Page 6252

1 what the make-up of the population is in terms of

2 ethnicity; that is your village.

3 A. The village of Bjelovcina had some 50 to 60 households.

4 Of these households, four perhaps were Muslim and six to

5 seven Croat households. It was surrounded by eight or

6 more Muslim and Croat villages.

7 Q. What was the majority ethnic population of Bjelovcina?

8 A. The majority in the village of Bjelovcina were Serbs.

9 Q. Were you able to observe what the village was being

10 attacked with in terms of weapons?

11 A. They shot bursts from automatic weapons.

12 Q. Do you recall whether any mortar or heavy artillery was

13 being fired at the village at the time?

14 A. Yes, rifle grenades were being fired, and on the next

15 day, which is to say on 21st May, I also heard shells,

16 but they were not quite near. They were falling

17 somewhere on the lower section of the village. In fact

18 I heard two of them land.

19 Q. Were you aware of whether or not the JNA or the army of

20 the Republika Srpska was operational in the area?

21 A. Before this began the JNA had military centres in

22 Celebici; actually the military barracks was there, and

23 then in Ljuta and Konjic and Zlatar, they were driven

24 away, and in Celebici, the soldiers of the Yugoslav

25 People's Army were captured. This is what I heard from

Page 6253

1 my neighbours. They were taken, as I heard to Split, so

2 that there was no Yugoslav People's Army there at the

3 time. In the village there was no Serb Army.

4 Q. Was there any other form of organised armed resistance

5 to this attack that you were aware of at that time?

6 A. You cannot talk about some organised resistance, there

7 were 50 or 60 able bodied men there, not more than that,

8 not many.

9 Q. Were they engaged in defending the village?

10 A. On the part of the population of the village of

11 Bjelovcina, I did not hear either then or later that

12 they had put up any resistance.

13 Q. You say that you returned to the village the next day,

14 21st May, after spending the night in the forest. What

15 happened then, can you tell us?

16 A. Yes, when we came to our house it was chaos. The doors

17 were broken down, the windows had been torn down.

18 Everything was upside down in the house and furniture

19 was broken. It looked like a storm had swept through

20 the house.

21 Q. What did you then do?

22 A. We then stayed in the house repairing things and putting

23 things back in their places, somewhere around 9.00 in

24 the morning on 21st May, we saw some 200 to 300 metres

25 from the houses, in the hamlet, across the meadow called

Page 6254

1 Lopata, we saw three or four soldiers running towards

2 our houses.

3 Q. When you saw this happen, did you decide to do

4 something?

5 A. When they came to a distance of perhaps 150 metres away

6 from us, they ran to it, to that point, they opened fire

7 again at this hamlet of mine. Then we fled again in the

8 direction of the forest with the women and children, the

9 elderly, the infirm.

10 Q. Did you reach a time when you actually went down to the

11 soldiers?

12 A. The soldiers kept shooting and calling out. Who in his

13 right mind dare approach them? There was no warning and

14 they shot at you immediately. So I went down,

15 I descended below a large rock, under a rock, and my

16 wife and my child did not manage to get out of that

17 forest. She and the child were taken and taken away.

18 Q. Who took them away?

19 A. This Muslim army, Muslim soldiers and Croats.

20 Q. Were you then later taken away by the soldiers?

21 A. No, we went down not knowing what to do. We went down

22 to the Muslim village called Kralupi and a relative of

23 mine, when we were about 200 metres from the village of

24 Kralupi, this relative went to see his bestman, Vahid

25 and Amir Dzalilovic, because we did not dare go in with

Page 6255

1 the women and children, fearing that they would shoot at

2 us from the village of Kralupi.

3 Q. What happened then?

4 A. Then Amir came, Amir Dzalilovic and he took us in front

5 of a house where there were a lot of soldiers, Muslims

6 and Croats, some of whom I knew.

7 Q. What happened then?

8 A. Then this Dzalilovic, Arif, took me and my brother, Cedo

9 and Davor, to his home and my mother and the other women

10 and the others, they stayed behind in front of some sort

11 of a small command in Kralupi that they had, near Arif's

12 house. Vahid Macic came and he used to work with me in

13 Igman, he was armed wearing a camouflage uniform, and a

14 young man from the village of Turija, a Croat whom I did

15 not know.

16 Q. Macic, was he with the Muslim army?

17 A. Yes, he was armed, but he was not with the Muslims.

18 There were Muslim soldiers in this village of Kralupi,

19 but somebody had probably reported to some higher level

20 command that we had got there, that we had arrived in

21 Kralupi and he was probably sent to take me there.

22 Q. What happened to you when you went there?

23 A. As soon as he came he cursed me, but he did not hit me.

24 They took us to Vejsil Salilovic's house, me and my

25 brother Branko.

Page 6256

1 Q. At the time when you made Vahid Masic, were you or your

2 brother or anyone in the group that you were with

3 carrying any weapons?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What happened next? What was the next thing to occur?

6 A. All the way, Vahid Masic cursed, but he did not hit me

7 or my brother. When we got to Vejsil Salilovic's house

8 near the elementary school in Bjelovcina we saw a lot of

9 armed men, soldiers, and as soon as they approached one

10 of them hit my brother. I did not know this man. He

11 fell and then they started beating him. They shouted

12 "kill the Chetniks", then they started beating me as

13 well.

14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people that were beating

15 you?

16 A. Yes, while I was on the ground covered in blood, Redzo

17 Balic from the village of Zukici took out a knife and he

18 was shrieking, he wanted to cut my throat and he pressed

19 it against my neck. Then another soldier, I do not know

20 who he was, pulled him away, because he was kneeling on

21 my chest. I did not faint, but I was badly beaten up.

22 My nose was bleeding, there was blood coming out of my

23 mouth. Then they took me, Smajic was there, I do not

24 know his name but I know his nickname, he was known as

25 Duda. They took me to a house 50 metres away, it is 50

Page 6257

1 metres from Vejsil's house to this one. The house was

2 owned by Boza Tomic.

3 Q. Smajic, was he a soldier or one of the people that had

4 been captured?

5 A. He was in uniform, a Muslim with a rifle.

6 Q. What happened to you when you got to Tomic's house?

7 A. They took me upstairs on the first floor of the house

8 into the room where this Duda hit me again and he

9 ordered me to lie down on the floor. He hit me with his

10 rifle butt, he kicked me with his soldier's boots and

11 with a stick made from a cable.

12 Q. What part of his body -- what part of your body was he

13 hitting you on?

14 A. He was hitting me most on my back and all over the body,

15 but most on my back and legs. Then later he found a

16 broom. I was fainting in the meantime. When he found

17 this broom, then he hit me with that too, and he was

18 joined by a blond man, younger than me, I do not know

19 his name. I know he was a Croat, and so the two of them

20 hit me.

21 Q. You say you fainted. Did you faint or lose

22 consciousness just the once or did that happen a number

23 of times?

24 A. I fainted several times, but they poured water over me.

25 Q. When this happened, you were brought back to

Page 6258

1 consciousness?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Apart from you, was anyone else being beaten at this

4 time and at this place?

5 A. There was just me upstairs with these two people, Duda

6 and this other Croat soldier.

7 Q. What happened then?

8 A. They beat me for about an hour in that room, and then

9 they told me to go down to the cellar. I could not

10 walk, because my legs would not hold me, they were so

11 painful. So they pulled me down the steps.

12 Q. When you say "they", do you know who it was that pulled

13 you down the steps?

14 A. These torturers of mine, the people who had beaten me in

15 the room, Duda and this soldier from Turija whose name

16 I do not know.

17 Q. When you got down to the cellar, what happened then?

18 A. They threw me against a wall and I sat down. I saw the

19 owner of the house there, Boza Tomic, who was also

20 covered in blood. My brother was also there, and Vlado

21 Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo. They did not beat me much

22 there. They did slap us, one of the soldiers, I do not

23 know which one.

24 Q. What was the next thing that happened?

25 A. Then they took us in the direction of the village of

Page 6259

1 Pokojiste. I could not walk so this Croat soldier had

2 to help me, and it is with his help that I somehow

3 managed to reach Pokojiste. They took us to Branko

4 Jozic's house, he was also known as Aga. They leant me

5 up against a wall, also in a sitting position. I was

6 leaned up against a wall and I saw many soldiers there,

7 in uniform and armed, and among them I recognised some

8 of my neighbours.

9 Q. Are you able to name some of the neighbours that you

10 saw?

11 A. Yes, I recognised Ivica Kozaric, a Croat from that

12 village; Niko Jozic, a Croat from that village; Branko

13 Jozic, known as Aga, because the command there,

14 I realised then, was situated in his house, this was a

15 higher level command.

16 Q. These people that you have just named, these Croats you

17 just named, were they in uniform at the time?

18 A. Yes, they were in uniform and carrying rifles.

19 Q. Once you arrived at this command centre, where were you

20 then taken?

21 A. They did not hit me there, but two people sat next to me

22 and hit me on the nose. They did curse me, and later a

23 van appeared. They took my shoes off and they took me,

24 my brother, Boza Tomic, Vlado Vukalo, Milenko Vukalo, to

25 the motel in Konjic. I observed that there were very

Page 6260

1 many soldiers there.

2 Q. Was this at the motel where there were many soldiers?

3 A. Yes, the Konjic motel.

4 Q. Were these soldiers also in uniform and armed?

5 A. Yes, of course.

6 Q. Do you know who it was that took you to the motel?

7 A. I do not know the driver, I do not know the two armed

8 soldiers -- I do not know what they were called. I just

9 know they were Muslims.

10 Q. When you got to the motel where did they take you then?

11 A. They took the whole group, Vlado, my brother, Milenko,

12 Boza Tomic and myself upstairs to a room, a room for

13 guests before the war, it was a hotel room. They told

14 us that we should rest there and two armed soldiers

15 guarded us.

16 Q. Approximately what time was this in the day or night?

17 A. It was on 21st in the evening, just before dark fell --

18 no, it was already dark. I do not know what the time

19 was. However, sleeping was out of the question. Every

20 five minutes, these two would come in and hit us, kick

21 us, they would curse at us.

22 Q. When you say these two, do you mean the two soldiers

23 that were guarding you?

24 A. Yes, I am implying those two guards.

25 Q. What happened the next morning?

Page 6261

1 A. In the morning, I do not know what time it was, it was

2 early, it had already dawned, they told us to go down,

3 they would apparently give us some breakfast and

4 coffee. We went down to the hall -- the dining room,

5 actually. However, nothing came of breakfast and

6 coffee. I saw there somebody from Celebici, Masic.

7 I think his surname was Masic. I cannot recall his

8 first name, known as Barba, that was his nickname. He

9 was in uniform, and he took us into the kitchen one by

10 one and beat us there. This fate befell me too.

11 Q. Did they say anything to you when they took you into the

12 kitchen and beat you?

13 A. He would just call out, one by one, "into the kitchen",

14 beat us up there and shove us back and then the next

15 one's turn would come so that Vlado, Milenko, Boza,

16 Branko and myself had the same treatment.

17 Q. What was the next thing to happen?

18 A. After that Duda arrived, the one I have already

19 mentioned, and a boy from Zlaticevo, a soldier, I do not

20 know his first or second name, and they took me alone

21 upstairs, into a room upstairs. Here they started to

22 hit me. They hit me all over my body, and I had already

23 previously been beaten up. I could only just keep

24 conscious, and then someone walked in, I think he was an

25 officer of that Muslim army at the time. Later, I saw

Page 6262

1 him when I was working in the town of Konjic, outside

2 the command building, which was just in front of the

3 Standard, across the way from the Standard. He asked me

4 whether I had a wish. He behaved correctly, I am

5 thinking of the officer, and he said -- and I said that

6 I would like to see my wife and child if possible. For

7 a moment he interrupted the beating and the torturing by

8 my torturers. My wife came, after about 15 or 20

9 minutes. They brought her into the room where I was,

10 bloodstained, lying on the bed.

11 Q. What did your wife do when she came into the room?

12 A. She cried.

13 Q. Did they do anything to your wife when she cried?

14 A. Yes, they said that she would suffer the same fate as I,

15 that she was a Chetnik woman. However, only one of them

16 slapped her, and this officer took her away, and

17 I suppose they took her back to Musala, the sports hall,

18 where my child and father were also imprisoned and some

19 other women and children. That was a prison by then

20 already.

21 Q. After your wife left, was anyone else brought into the

22 room then, any other prisoners brought into the room?

23 A. Yes, after that they brought in Slobodan Babic and

24 Novica Ivkovic from my village.

25 Q. When they brought those two in, what happened then?

Page 6263

1 A. Duda, whom I have already mentioned, and this soldier

2 from Zlaticevo and some others started to hit us. They

3 hit us all over, but mostly on the back. I fell between

4 two beds, I fainted, and then they probably stopped

5 hitting me. When I came to, being busy with the other

6 two, Slobodan Babic and Novica Ivkovic, they were

7 hitting them a lot, I raised myself to the bed --

8 actually, no, I must correct myself. I do not know how

9 I got to the bed from the floor, somebody may have

10 lifted me up. I was lying on the bed, anyway. I came

11 to, and I saw well with my own eyes when Duda cut with

12 his knife. I do not know whether it was his right or

13 left hand, lower hand, below the elbow, he cut off a

14 piece of flesh with a knife to Novica Ivkovic. Then he

15 trampled on Slobodan Babic's chest. He broke his arm

16 because he trampled on his arm too. Others hit him as

17 well, and they took turns coming in and out. I do not

18 even know who they were in the end. They were all

19 wearing uniforms.

20 Then Duda, with a rifle, pushed the barrel into

21 Slobodan Babic's mouth and perforated his palate. He

22 was covered in blood, and he could no longer speak. He

23 was just gargling. This went on, I do not know exactly,

24 I think until about 2.00 in the afternoon and then this

25 officer came whom I had mentioned, saying he was more or

Page 6264

1 less correct with us, because he did not hit us. He

2 interrupted this torture. He was shoving the soldiers

3 out, and he told us to go downstairs.

4 Novica went on his two feet; I was helped by a

5 soldier, whom I do not know, but I somehow managed to

6 get back on my feet. I saw that Slobodan could not

7 stand at all. Then Duda and another soldier dragged him

8 down the stairs, and his head was hitting the steps.

9 They were laughing while they did it, and making jokes

10 about it.

11 Q. When you were in the motel, did anyone offer you or did

12 you receive medical treatment?

13 A. I was going to say that, I forgot. Actually, this

14 officer, when he managed to stop the beatings, asked we

15 would like to see a doctor. Of course we needed a

16 doctor. A lady doctor arrived who had worked in Konjic,

17 in the hospital, before the war, and a male nurse,

18 called Vinko Jozic, whom I knew.

19 Q. Did you know the ethnic background of the doctor?

20 A. Yes, the doctor, she was Muslim, and the male nurse was

21 a Croat. When they came in, the two of them, into the

22 room, the room appeared like a slaughterhouse. There

23 was blood on the walls, on the beds, it looked awful.

24 She said, referring to Slobodan Babic, that he was

25 apparently drunk and that he had fallen and hurt

Page 6265

1 himself, and she was laughing as she said it. She said

2 that we did not need any assistance, though we were all

3 covered in blood. However, I asked this male nurse to

4 bandage my right -- I think it was my right, because

5 I felt nothing in the elbow area, I thought it was

6 broken. He said he dared not from the doctor, and when

7 she walked out for a couple of minutes, she went out for

8 a couple of minutes, she left the room, he did bandage

9 my arm, or rather he tied it round my neck and he did

10 not dare give any treatment to Slobodan.

11 As for Novica where the flesh has been cut off by

12 Duda, he quickly bandaged it before the doctor came back

13 and then both of them left, the doctor and the nurse.

14 Q. Were you taken from the motel to another place?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where were you taken?

17 A. When I got outside in front of the motel I saw Mirko

18 Babic. He was black and blue from blows and there was

19 blood on his head and they loaded me into a car that was

20 parked in front of the motel.

21 Q. When you say they, do you know who it was who loaded you

22 into the car?

23 A. Yes, the soldiers, but I do not know their names or

24 surnames, they were in uniform. They were there in the

25 motel.

Page 6266

1 Q. After you were loaded into the car, were you taken

2 somewhere?

3 A. Yes, I and Mirko Babic were taken to Celebici, and there

4 they put us into number 22 where that camp had been

5 founded. We were there in Celebici.

6 Q. You say number 22, do you mean room number 22?

7 A. Hangar number 22.

8 Q. And Celebici is the former JNA camp?

9 A. Yes, it was the former JNA barracks, a smaller barracks.

10 Q. Were there many people in room 22 when you first arrived

11 there?

12 A. When I entered this hangar number 22, I found there,

13 among those I knew, Veljko Babic from my village, and

14 also the following people I will mention are from my

15 village, Ranko Dordic, Scepo Vukalo, and about six or

16 seven men from the village of Brjdani who had already

17 been there five or ten days before, I do not know how

18 many days before, but they were there when we arrived.

19 So they were the first detainees of the Celebici camp.

20 Q. Can you describe the interior of room 22 when you first

21 arrived at the Celebici camp?

22 A. It was like a warehouse for fire extinguishers. There

23 were quite a number of water hoses there, pumps used for

24 firefighting equipment, there was quite a bit of that

25 equipment there.

Page 6267

1 Q. Was there any bedding in room 22 when you first arrived?

2 A. No, there were no beds.

3 Q. Was there any medical supplies that you could see when

4 you first arrived?

5 A. I do not understand. Could you repeat the question,

6 please?

7 Q. I am sorry. Did you see any medical equipment or

8 medicines or things of that nature in room 22 when you

9 first arrived there?

10 A. I understand now. No, I did not see any of that.

11 Q. You have already mentioned quite a number of people that

12 you saw in room 22. Are you able to estimate

13 approximately how many people were detained there, in

14 room 22?

15 A. When I arrived there, when I was brought in to 22, there

16 were about 12 or 15 men. I do not know the exact

17 number, but I think there were not more than 15, but

18 later, they were brought in in groups. From my village,

19 from the Donje Selo and from the village of Cerici, so

20 that by nightfall, there were many of us there. There

21 were so many that we could hardly stand inside in the

22 hangar.

23 Q. After you arrived at Celebici, did you see Slobodan

24 Babic again?

25 A. Afterwards, after I arrived, maybe two or three hours

Page 6268

1 later, I do not know exactly, they brought in my brother

2 Branko, Vlado, Milenko and Boza Tomic and Novica and

3 Slobodan Babic. They took Slobodan Babic out -- they

4 were carrying him because he could not stand on his feet

5 and they threw him into number 22.

6 Q. How long did Slobodan Babic stay there, in room 22?

7 A. He was there, I do not know for how many days, but not

8 many. I do not know whether it was a day or two,

9 I cannot remember how many days, and then he was taken,

10 apparently to the 3rd March hospital, which was set up a

11 couple of days before that. Actually it was an

12 elementary school, 3rd March elementary school, as it

13 was called in Konjic. Then they brought him back again,

14 he was completely naked.

15 Q. When you say they brought him back, they brought him

16 back to Celebici?

17 A. To number 22 they brought him back.

18 Q. When they brought him back, how long did he stay in

19 number 22?

20 A. Not long, I do not know how many days. He was

21 immobile. He was not there for long, I do not know how

22 many days. Then they took him again, I think to the

23 3rd March, but I do not really know where they took

24 him. I later learned that he had died there.

25 Q. Apart from being in room 22 at Celebici when they

Page 6269

1 brought him back naked, did you see him in any other

2 place in the camp?

3 A. I did not see him, except in number 22 in Celebici.

4 While I was in Celebici I only saw him there in number

5 22.

6 Q. When you were in Celebici were you interrogated when you

7 first arrived?

8 A. Yes, I was interrogated, but before that I was beaten by

9 this Smajic Duda that I have already mentioned and some

10 others that I do not know.

11 Q. When you were interrogated, who interrogated you?

12 A. First interrogation was by Mirsad Subasic from the

13 village of Idbar.

14 Q. Had you known him before the war?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know what his occupation was before the war?

17 A. I think that he worked something to do with the army, he

18 was attached to the department for the military.

19 I think he went to some sort of school of that kind, but

20 where he worked exactly I do not know because I did not

21 know him very well. I knew him by sight.

22 Q. When he was interrogating you, what were the sort of

23 questions that he was asking you?

24 A. He asked me how I had got there, whether I knew whether

25 there were any other able bodied men in my village of

Page 6270

1 Bjelovcina, and where they were.

2 Q. Were you beaten during the course of this interrogation?

3 A. Mirsad Subasic treated me correctly. He did not beat

4 me, nor did anyone else beat me while he was

5 interrogating me, but later when they took me back the

6 guards hit me.

7 Q. Do you recognise any of the guards that hit you?

8 A. I think they were the military police, because they had

9 white belts, but I know that there were two of them.

10 I think one was from Dzajici and some were from Idbar.

11 Q. What were you beaten with?

12 A. They beat me with fists, with their legs, with

13 truncheons, and rifle butts.

14 Q. How long were you in room 22?

15 A. In hangar 22 I think I stayed for about 15 days. I do

16 not know exactly, but around 15 days. Then I was

17 transferred to hangar number 6.

18 Q. During the time that you were in room 22, can you

19 estimate approximately how many people were there, how

20 many prisoners were being kept there when the maximum

21 number of prisoners were in room 22?

22 A. At one point I think there were about 100 of us, maybe

23 even more. There was not room to sit down, we were all

24 standing, we could hardly all stand.

25 Q. When you were in room 22 did you on any occasion go to

Page 6271

1 any part of the camp?

2 A. When they started bringing in people in large groups,

3 the population from Bradina, men who were put up in

4 number 6, in the hangar number 6, one day I was carrying

5 some bread there to that hangar, because I was appointed

6 to do that by the guards.

7 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask you what you saw when you went there

8 when we return. Is this a convenient time,

9 your Honours?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think so. We can stop here for

11 lunch and come back at 2.30.

12 (1.00 pm)

13 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6272

1 (2.30 pm)

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he is still on his

3 oath.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Sir, may I remind you you are still on your

5 oath.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Niemann, you may proceed.

8 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honour pleases. Mr. Vukalo, when you

9 were in room 22, you said on one occasion you went over

10 to hangar number 6 to take some bread over. What did

11 you see when you went over to hangar 6 on this occasion?

12 A. Let me just say that I did not enter the hangar, I was

13 in front of the hangar and the door was open and I could

14 see the part that one could see with the door open.

15 Q. What did you see in there, from that point?

16 A. I could see people beaten up, some were bandaged.

17 Practically all of the people I saw were beaten up.

18 Q. You said that you were first interrogated by a person by

19 the name of Subasic. Were you then later interrogated

20 by somebody else when you were in the Celebici camp?

21 A. In Celebici, while I stayed there, there were many

22 interrogations. I was interrogated by Miro Stenek, and

23 there was another one whose name I cannot remember.

24 I think he worked in the court in Konjic, and I think

25 that he was a Croat.

Page 6273

1 Q. Were you beaten or mistreated in any way during the

2 course of those interrogations?

3 A. There were many interrogations, as I said, and at some

4 of those we would also get beaten and when we were

5 interrogated by Miro Stenek we were not beaten when we

6 were being actually interrogated, but we were beaten

7 before and after the interrogation.

8 Q. Were you ever interrogated by personnel who worked in

9 the camp, as opposed to interrogators that came in from

10 outside?

11 A. We were interrogated by the guards. I was also

12 interrogated by Hazim Delic.

13 Q. When were you interrogated by Hazim Delic?

14 A. I do not recall the date exactly. Once I was called

15 out, to get outside. I was in hangar number 6 then, and

16 he interrogated me outside the hangar and I was beaten.

17 Q. Who beat you during this interrogation?

18 A. Hazim Delic did, and Esad Landzo, called Zenga.

19 Q. With what were you beaten?

20 A. Hazim hit me with his favourite thing which he almost

21 always had with him; that is a baseball bat.

22 Q. Can you recall now what part of the body you were hit

23 on?

24 A. Under the arms, the part of my body where the ribs are,

25 on the ribs.

Page 6274

1 Q. Did Hazim Delic ask you any questions during the course

2 of this interview?

3 A. Yes, he did. He asked me about a certain sniper.

4 Q. What did you say to him?

5 A. I had no idea what to reply to him. I did not know what

6 he was talking about. I said there was no sniper, there

7 was not anything of the kind.

8 Q. Did he say anything else to you during the interview?

9 A. He mostly hit me then.

10 Q. Had you known Hazim Delic before you went to Celebici

11 camp?

12 A. No, I had not, not in person, but I had seen him around

13 town, the town of Konjic, and later I knew that it was

14 him, the person I had seen before.

15 Q. Did you know where he came from, what village or town he

16 came from?

17 A. You mean where he was born?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. He was born in the village of Orahovica near Konjic.

20 Q. Do you know what position he occupied when he was in the

21 camp?

22 A. While he was in the camp he was the deputy commander of

23 the camp and later he was the commander himself.

24 Q. During the time you were in Celebici, did you see him in

25 the camp very often or not often? Are you able to give

Page 6275

1 us some idea?

2 A. I saw him quite often while I was in Celebici. He would

3 enter as many as three times a day and for a while he

4 also spent the nights there. He slept in the command

5 building where they had their quarters. He came

6 frequently.

7 Q. Do you think you would recognise him again if you saw

8 him?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. I think you said that participating in the interview or

11 the interrogation that you were subjected to was

12 Mr. Landzo; is that right?

13 A. Landzo also interrogated us on his own with the guards,

14 and he also took part in that particular interrogation

15 when I was being interrogated by Delic.

16 Q. Did you know Landzo by a nickname?

17 A. Already then when I was interrogated by Delic, I knew

18 it.

19 Q. What was it?

20 A. Zenga.

21 Q. Had you seen Landzo before the war?

22 A. No, I did not know him before Celebici.

23 Q. Did you see him in -- how often did you see him in

24 Celebici camp? Was it occasionally, often, rarely?

25 A. Initially Zenga was not a guard at Celebici, but he was

Page 6276

1 there, he was in the Celebici camp. Later he was also a

2 guard. He spent a lot of his time in the camp.

3 Q. Do you think that you would recognise him again if you

4 saw him?

5 A. Of course.

6 Q. Apart from those people that you have mentioned being

7 camp personnel, was there anyone else in the camp that

8 you knew or came to know in terms of the people in

9 authority in the camp?

10 A. I heard, but I did not see, that Zejnil Delalic used to

11 come.

12 Q. Anyone else in the camp that you knew or saw? I am

13 speaking mainly of people that you saw when you were

14 there who were in positions of authority?

15 A. There were the guards, I cannot say what positions

16 people held.

17 Q. Are you able to give the names of any of the guards?

18 A. Something which is etched in my memory, and it is an

19 unpleasant memory, regrettably, in addition to Zenga,

20 Osman Dedic, Salko, I believe that he was from the town

21 of Konjic, and I do not remember his surname.

22 Q. You have given the name of the deputy commander,

23 Mr. Delic. Do you know who the camp commander was when

24 you were there?

25 A. Yes, certainly. The commander of the camp, the

Page 6277

1 administrator there was Mucic, Zdravko Mucic, called

2 Pavo.

3 Q. Pavo was his nickname, was it?

4 A. Yes, that was his nickname.

5 Q. Do you know where he came from, what village or town he

6 came from?

7 A. Pavo, and I will call him by his nickname, if that is

8 all right, was from Konjic. I do not know his exact

9 address. I believe it was Polje Bijela.

10 Q. Do you know whether he worked in Konjic or whether he

11 worked somewhere else, before the war?

12 A. Before I started working at the factory at Igman, he

13 also worked at that same factory. Then he left for

14 Vienna, I believe.

15 Q. Did you see him in the camp occasionally, rarely or

16 often?

17 A. I saw him from time to time.

18 Q. When you saw him in the camp, how was he dressed?

19 A. He wore a uniform.

20 Q. Do you think that you might recognise him again if you

21 saw him?

22 A. Yes, I certainly could.

23 Q. When you were in the camp did you see there a person who

24 was being detained as a prisoner called Pero Mrkajic?

25 A. Yes, when I came to number 6 from number 22, namely

Page 6278

1 after we were transferred from 22 to number 6, I saw

2 Pero Mrkajic in a pitiful state, all beaten up, lying on

3 some boxes.

4 Q. Had you known him before the war, that is Pero Mrkajic?

5 A. Yes, I had.

6 Q. When you saw him lying on these boxes, do you know

7 approximately how long he was kept on the boxes or how

8 long he was lying on the boxes for?

9 A. I could not say, but not for long.

10 Q. Did there come a time when he was taken from there?

11 A. Yes, there did. He was taken to number 22, where there

12 had been established a ward, where I had been before

13 myself.

14 Q. So the use of room 22 had been changed to a medical type

15 place, had it?

16 A. Yes, so they told us.

17 Q. Did you ever see Pero Mrkajic again after he had been

18 taken to this ward, that is room 22?

19 A. No, later, after I do not remember how much time, we

20 found out that he had died; he had succumbed to his

21 injuries.

22 Q. When you were in the camp did you come to know a person

23 by the name of Kuljanin with the nickname Corba?

24 A. Yes, I saw him in number 6 in the hangar number 6 when

25 we from number 22 came there.

Page 6279

1 Q. Did you ever see anything happen to him during the

2 period of time that he was in the camp that comes to

3 mind?

4 A. During the Bairam holiday in 1992, he was taken out, his

5 name was called out, he was taken out of the hangar. He

6 was then beaten.

7 Q. Did you see this beating?

8 A. No, I could hear him screaming.

9 Q. Do you know who took him out?

10 A. Esad Landzo took him out. Then he came inside the

11 hangar and after a short while, I do not remember

12 exactly how long, he called out his name.

13 Q. When you say "he called out his name", who called out

14 his name?

15 A. Esad Landzo did. Then a rifle shot could be heard and

16 later we heard that he was killed, executed.

17 Q. But you did not see this?

18 A. No, I did not see it with my own eyes, but some of the

19 camp inmates had seen it.

20 Q. This person Kuljanin, about what age was he?

21 A. I do not know exactly, perhaps he was several years my

22 senior.

23 Q. If you could just assist us by saying whether it was 30s

24 or 40s or 50s? You do not need to be precise.

25 A. 30 years, perhaps of age.

Page 6280

1 Q. Do you know what his ethnic group was?

2 A. He was a Serb from the village of Bradina.

3 Q. When you were in the camp, did you also see there a

4 person that you knew called Scepo Gotovac?

5 A. Scepo Gotovac came from my village. Of course I knew

6 him. He was brought to number 6. I do not remember the

7 date, I believe that it was on the orders of Hazim

8 Delic, because when he was brought there and placed in

9 number 6, the hangar, Hazim Delic slapped his face and

10 told him that he would take his revenge upon him.

11 Q. Did you hear this?

12 A. Yes, all of us heard it.

13 Q. Did you see it?

14 A. It was by the door. Yes, of course I did see it. It

15 was inside, in the hangar.

16 Q. What happened then?

17 A. He was taken out.

18 Q. Who took him out?

19 A. Zenga called out his name, then we heard a scream. We

20 heard him screaming for 30 or 45 minutes. Then they put

21 him back in the hangar and several hours later his name

22 was called out again.

23 Q. Who called his name out again?

24 A. Zenga did. He was holding something in his hand.

25 Q. Who was holding something in his hand?

Page 6281

1 A. Zenga was. He sort of stuck it into his neck and he

2 pushed Scepo Gotovac outside. Then we heard a scream

3 again, then Zenga came inside after perhaps half an hour

4 or 40 minutes, and he ordered two of the detainees --

5 Q. Who ordered two of the detainees?

6 A. Zenga did -- to bring him, Scepo Gotovac inside. While

7 he was outside for the second time, while he was being

8 beaten outside for the second time, for a time we could

9 hear him moaning and screaming, and at a certain point

10 it stopped. We could no longer hear him screaming. Of

11 the detainees, Novica went out and his brother Toso

12 Brdzani and they brought Scepo Gotovac half dead

13 inside. In the morning I saw that he was dead.

14 Q. How do you know he was dead?

15 A. We went out to go to the toilet and I saw him, he was

16 not far.

17 Q. Are you able to estimate his age, Scepo Gotovac?

18 A. He was an elderly man, perhaps he was born in 1929 or

19 so, I am not sure. 1929 is his year of birth.

20 Q. Do you know what his ethnic background was?

21 A. He was a Serb.

22 Q. While you were in the camp did you come to know a person

23 by the name of Bosko Samoukovic?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where was this man in the camp in relation to you?

Page 6282

1 A. He sat in the direction of the door, next to the wall of

2 the hangar.

3 Q. This was hangar number 6, was it?

4 A. Yes, hangar number 6.

5 Q. While he was in the camp did you see anything happen to

6 him?

7 A. Yes. He was beaten, both inside and outside the

8 hangar. Zenga hit him with his rifle butt. He kicked

9 him and he hit him with a stick.

10 Q. Were you able to see this yourself?

11 A. Inside we were able to see it and, of course, outside

12 I could not see it. After that he was transferred to

13 the so-called infirmary at number 22, and after some

14 time, I do not know how much time elapsed, I cannot

15 remember that, since he had two sons there, Nedeljko and

16 Milan, they were informed that he had died, that he had

17 succumbed.

18 Q. Did you see him again after you had been taken away to

19 room 22 yourself?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Are you able to tell us approximately what age group he

22 was?

23 A. Maybe in his 50s, between 50 and 60.

24 Q. And his ethnic group?

25 A. Serb, from the village of Bradina.

Page 6283

1 Q. Do you know approximately what time during the period of

2 time you were in the Celebici camp that this happened?

3 A. It was before we were registered by the International

4 Red Cross. I think this was sometime in June or the

5 beginning of July. I do not know exactly.

6 Q. Again, while you were in the camp, did you come to know

7 a person that had a nickname, Keljo?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Had you known him before the war or known of him?

10 A. I did not know him before the war, but I knew that he

11 had a cafe in town but I did not know him before the

12 camp.

13 Q. Did you come to know him in the camp?

14 A. Yes, I saw him in the camp.

15 Q. Where did you see him?

16 A. He was brought in later, after I had got to hangar

17 number 6.

18 Q. Was he brought to hangar number 6?

19 A. Yes, to number 6, that is where I met him.

20 Q. How long was he in the camp for?

21 A. I cannot say exactly how long it was, maybe a month or

22 two, I really do not know.

23 Q. Did something happen to him?

24 A. Yes. One evening, a friend of his came, a Muslim. He

25 brought him some cigarettes. We could hear, all of us

Page 6284

1 in the hangar, at least those who were closer to him,

2 Hazim Delic said to this friend of him, Keljo's friend,

3 I mean, "why are you giving him that? He will not see

4 the day tomorrow", and he did not, in fact. In the

5 early morning, he was called out --

6 Q. Who called him out?

7 A. I really could not say. One of the guards.

8 Q. What happened when he was taken out?

9 A. He was shot.

10 Q. Did you hear this?

11 A. Some of the detainees were outside at the time, they

12 were cleaning up. He was killed by Padalovic, as I was

13 informed later, or rather as we in the hangar heard

14 later.

15 Q. After he had been shot did you have to do anything in

16 relation to him?

17 A. Yes. After maybe an hour I was called out by Esad

18 Landzo, known as Zenga, and he took me behind the hangar

19 holding in his hand a grenade. He said to me that I had

20 to remove the ring from Keljo's hand. How come he had

21 that ring, I do not know myself. I was terrified, and

22 he said that if I did not do it he would kill me with

23 this grenade. I approached the body. I really do not

24 know now how I managed to take off that ring. In that

25 fear I somehow did, but before that I was having a hard

Page 6285

1 time doing it and he said if I did not succeed I would

2 have to cut off his finger. I gave him that ring as

3 I did manage to take it off, and he said to me that

4 I must not tell anyone because he would kill me.

5 Q. When you were taking the ring off Keljo's finger did he

6 appear to you to be dead or alive?

7 A. Dead.

8 Q. Again while you were in the camp did you see there a

9 person that you knew by the name of Zeljko Cecez?

10 A. I knew Zeljko before I came to the camp. He was from

11 Donje Selo.

12 Q. Did he have a nickname?

13 A. Yes. Before the war, his nickname was Spanac, or "the

14 Spaniard". That is how his neighbours called him, in

15 the 1980s and in the 1970s. How he came to the

16 nicknamed thus I do not know.

17 Q. Can you tell us what approximate age he was or what age

18 group?

19 A. Zeljko may have been about 28. I think he was born in

20 1961 or 1962.

21 Q. Do you know what his ethnic background was?

22 A. A Serb.

23 Q. Where was he located in the camp while you were there,

24 in what place?

25 A. He sat behind my back in number 6, the row behind my

Page 6286

1 back.

2 Q. During the time that you were in the Celebici camp in

3 hangar number 6, did you see something happen to Zeljko?

4 A. Yes. Also during that holiday, ^ Kurban Bairam, the

5 first or second night, I think it was the second or the

6 first, I am not sure. He was called out by Zenga. One

7 could hear moans outside, this was in the evening. The

8 cries could be heard, I do not know for how long. Then

9 the doors of the hangar opened and he fell inside like a

10 sack. Zenga was still hitting him.

11 Q. What was he hitting him with?

12 A. He was kicking him, and I do not know exactly, I think

13 he had a plank. He was crawling, he was going on all

14 fours to reach his position. However, his strength

15 caved in and he fell. We did not dare move any one of

16 us to help him reach his place. When Zenga went out and

17 when the door was closed behind him, I do not know

18 exactly who it was who got up and dragged him to his

19 place. In the morning, he was dead. He was lying there

20 dead.

21 Q. Did you see him in the morning, see his body in the

22 morning?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What was it about what you saw of his body that made you

25 think he was dead?

Page 6287

1 A. The people who were sitting right next to him on his

2 left and his right gave us the sign that it was all over

3 for him, that he had died and one could see by his face,

4 though it was all beaten up, it was yellow.

5 Q. Again while in the camp, did you come to know a person

6 with the name Milosevic?

7 A. Milosevic is someone I did not know before the camp.

8 I only know that he came from the village of Dzepi and

9 I learned that in the camp. That is where I met him.

10 Q. Did you ever see anything or hear anything happening to

11 him?

12 A. As far as I know Milosevic was beaten very badly, both

13 inside and out. He was beaten by Delic also, and he

14 died from the beatings, but I cannot describe that in

15 any detail.

16 Q. Again during the period of time that you were in hangar

17 number 6, do you recall an incident where some prisoners

18 were playing cards?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When did this incident happen, approximately?

21 A. I cannot say exactly, but I think it was towards the end

22 of August or perhaps in September.

23 Q. Some detainees had made some cardboard cards so as to

24 while away the time somehow. However, no one asked the

25 deputy commander of the camp, Delic, but one of the

Page 6288

1 guards saw this and informed Delic. Delic came shortly

2 after that and he beat us up en masse.

3 A. When you say "beat us up", just the people playing cards

4 or other people as well?

5 A. Those who were playing and those who had made them.

6 Q. Were you in this group?

7 A. Yes, because I was playing.

8 Q. How long did this beating go on for?

9 A. Maybe an hour.

10 Q. Was it only Delic that beat you, Hazim Delic, or was

11 there somebody else there beating?

12 A. There were other guards too, but mostly Hazim was the

13 one who hit us.

14 Q. Did he say anything to you while he was beating you?

15 A. No, he just said "turn around to face the wall of the

16 hangar" and then he would beat us, and then he would go

17 on to the next one.

18 Q. Do you recall what it was that you were being beaten

19 with?

20 A. On that occasion when we had been playing those cards

21 which we had made, he hit us with a spade, so that we

22 had to spread our legs apart and our arms apart, and

23 stand there facing the wall of the hangar.

24 Q. On what part of your body were you hit, can you

25 remember?

Page 6289

1 A. From our knees upwards, on our thighs.

2 Q. Did you ever see an incident when you were in hangar

3 number 6 where people were burnt with hot knives?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where were you when you saw this happen?

6 A. I saw (redacted) when he was first called out, and

7 then after some time he was brought back in. He had a

8 terrible expression on his face. One could see that he

9 was in terrible pain and he showed us his hands, and one

10 could see the markings of a knife. The skin was all

11 burnt, and then he told us both he and the other people

12 who were taken out on that occasion, that Zenga had

13 heated a knife until it was red hot, and then they had

14 to hold it in their hands, and this, of course, would

15 burn their skin on their palms. This was on their

16 palms.

17 Q. You mentioned one occasion when a group of prisoners

18 were beaten when playing cards. Were there other

19 occasions when a whole group of people were beaten?

20 A. Yes. There were several such massive beatings, beatings

21 of large groups, and there were occasions when each and

22 every detainee was beaten. We called these "massive

23 beatings".

24 Q. Where did these take place?

25 A. In number 6.

Page 6290

1 Q. Who participated in these beatings? Who was the one

2 that was carrying out the beatings? Can you name some

3 of them?

4 A. I remember when the International Red Cross had

5 registered us and some of the detainees tried to tell

6 them of the situation we were in. However, afterwards,

7 while the International Red Cross had still not even

8 left, certainly they had not left Celebici, I do not

9 know whether they had left the camp itself, Delic walked

10 in with about 12 or 13 guards. He ordered us all to put

11 our hands behind our heads and then they went round

12 kicking us in the ribs.

13 Q. Apart from kicking you in the ribs did they hit you with

14 anything?

15 A. Now and then one of them would hit us with a rifle

16 butt. I also remember another such mass beating when

17 some Muslim soldiers fell into an ambush made by their

18 own people between Bradina and Repovci, so they all got

19 killed in that ambush. Delic together with some other

20 guards beat us, virtually all the detainees, and

21 especially those from the village of Bradina. He beat

22 us with his fists, with his boots. Sometimes he would

23 give us a karate blow. This was the case with Ranko

24 Gligorevic, known as Buco.

25 Q. Do you recall an incident were you were burnt with a

Page 6291

1 fuse?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Can you tell us when that happened?

4 A. I cannot recall exactly the date when this happened.

5 Zenga, on that day, had done this to someone else before

6 me. He tied the slow burning fuse, we call it the cord,

7 round the naked bodies of detainees.

8 Q. Did you see this happen yourself, did you see this

9 happen to these other men?

10 A. It was done to me, too.

11 Q. I am asking you, did you see it happen to the other men

12 ahead of you?

13 A. Yes, it was inside, in the hangar. I was called out

14 also by name. I was told to get up. He tied this fuse

15 between my legs, on my naked skin, and I had to take off

16 my pants and my sweat suit that I had on, up to my

17 knees. One end was inside, and then on top of that

18 I would put on my pants and my jogging suit and the

19 other end was free, outside. He would tie my hands

20 behind my back, and then he would set light to it.

21 Q. When you say you had to strip down, did you have to

22 strip down to your naked body?

23 A. From my waist to my knees I was naked.

24 Q. Was the fuse wrapped around your body or just -- perhaps

25 you could describe. Where was the fuse wrapped?

Page 6292

1 A. The fuse was wrapped between my legs and then one end

2 would stay in my pants, in my particular case it was

3 right next to the body below my underwear and the other

4 end was outside, free.

5 Q. Once the fuse had been put next to your naked skin, did

6 you then have to pull up your underwear?

7 A. Yes, and then he would tie my hands behind my back.

8 Q. Is this what you saw happen to the other prisoners?

9 A. Yes, before me it was done to Vukasin Mrkajic, I think

10 Veseljko Djordjic or his brother and some others.

11 Q. What happened to them that you could see before

12 something happened to you?

13 A. When he did all this, when he wrapped the fuse like this

14 and when they put on their pants and underwear and tie

15 their hands behind their back and set light to it, then

16 people were in great pain. They were almost jumping

17 around half a metre high, making leaps into the air from

18 the pain when the fuse started burning right next to the

19 skin. They would roll over on the concrete floor until

20 somehow they would manage to put it out with their own

21 body. They would extinguish it rolling around like

22 that.

23 Q. Was Zenga on his own when he was doing this or was he

24 with other guards?

25 A. Osman Dedic was with him most times.

Page 6293

1 Q. Would he say anything or do anything while this was

2 happening?

3 A. He would laugh, he would laugh. To him, it seemed very

4 funny.

5 Q. What happened to you?

6 A. Then he called me by name and told me to get up. He

7 ordered me to take off my sweat suit up to my knees and

8 my underwear, then he also tied this fuse round my body

9 and ordered me to put back on my underwear and my sweat

10 suit, to put my hands behind my back. The end of the

11 fuse, which was uncovered, it was about 10 centimetres

12 long, this uncovered end, and when he set light to it,

13 because I had seen this happen to others before me,

14 I saw that the best thing to do was to lie down as soon

15 as possible and roll around to put the fire out, and

16 I managed, before it reached my skin, to extinguish the

17 fuse, but he did not like that.

18 Q. When you say "he did not like it", who did not like it?

19 A. Zenga. He hit me with his rifle, with the butt of his

20 rifle. He sent me back to my place.

21 Q. Was there another incident when a bullet was shown to

22 you?

23 A. Yes, there was.

24 Q. When did that happen?

25 A. I cannot precisely recall the exact time, the date.

Page 6294

1 There were many beatings, very many unpleasant incidents

2 and situations, but I think that it was some time around

3 August, in August.

4 Q. Can you describe this incident for us, please?

5 A. Yes. He called me out --

6 Q. Who called you out?

7 A. Zenga did. He told me to go out and he himself was out,

8 outside.

9 Q. When you say "out", that is outside the hangar, is it?

10 A. Yes. What I am about to describe, he did, before he did

11 it to me, to Vukasin Mrkajic, Bosko Samoukovic, Spaso

12 Miljevic, as well as to some others, and when Vukasin

13 Mrkajic was the object of this and he did the same thing

14 as I am about to tell you he did to me, when he was

15 doing that to him, what he was to do to me later, he

16 told Vukasin Mrkajic to call me out.

17 Q. But you did not see what happened to the other men?

18 A. No, I later heard.

19 Q. Just tell us what happened to you.

20 A. Yes. I went out, I walked up to him, to a distance of

21 some five metres from him.

22 Q. This is as you walked up to Zenga?

23 A. Yes, I mean Zenga. He told me to kneel. He ordered me

24 to kneel, and I did. He showed me this bullet. He

25 asked me, "what is this?", and I said, "it is a

Page 6295

1 bullet". Then he showed me his rifle and he asked me

2 what that was, and I said "rifle". I saw with my own

3 eyes him put a bullet into the rifle barrel and cock.

4 He told me to open my mouth wide. He approached me.

5 I opened my mouth wide. I thought that my pain would be

6 over and that would be the end. He shot. I did not

7 know whether I was dead or alive. I could only feel

8 some sort of a fire burning inside my mouth. It took me

9 a minute to come to and to realise, to see whether I was

10 alive at all. He was laughing and then he sent me back

11 to the hangar.

12 Q. What do you think actually happened?

13 A. Later we found out from the other guards there that he

14 actually took out the powder, somehow had emptied the

15 powder, the charge from the bullet, so that actually the

16 bullet could not be activated when it was being shot.

17 It would just burn you inside, singe the inside of your

18 mouth.

19 Q. Do you recall another incident that happened in the

20 canal where the prisoners used to urinate?

21 A. Yes, this appeared, as I mentioned before that they were

22 ambushed by their own Muslim soldiers, so they fell into

23 this ambush which had been staged by their own people.

24 Q. You do not need to repeat that. Just tell us the

25 incident, if you would.

Page 6296

1 A. Yes. In the morning as we were going out to urinate, we

2 would go in groups of about 20.

3 Q. Was this the sort of standard procedure, to go out each

4 morning to urinate?

5 A. Yes, at the time it was.

6 Q. Where would you urinate?

7 A. Just to the left-hand side of the door, there was this

8 sort of a ditch, canal, which was some 10 or 15 metres

9 away from hangar number 6.

10 Q. On this particular occasion what happened?

11 A. Before the door was opened we heard some sort of a

12 racket in front of the hangar, and as soon as the door

13 was opened Zenga started hitting some people and was

14 telling them to approach him, and I later heard that

15 after this first group had -- that is what I heard after

16 this first group had returned from the urination. We

17 were scared, we did not know what was going on. We did

18 not know what was happening.

19 So when this group, in which I also was, this

20 group of 10 people went out to urinate, Zenga called me,

21 told me to come to him, and I walked up to him and he

22 hit me two or three times, and at a point which was some

23 2 metres from the last man on the right side in the

24 line of men who were urinating, he ordered me to drink

25 urine.

Page 6297

1 Q. From where were you to drink this urine?

2 A. From the canal into which the others were urinating at

3 the same time.

4 Q. The men were urinating at that time?

5 A. Yes, this group with which I had gone out to urinate,

6 and he also pressed my head and he pushed my head down.

7 He hit me very strongly with his rifle butt on the back,

8 and he pushed my head down into the canal so that the

9 urine was in my mouth and I actually drank it. He held

10 me in that position until I could no longer endure it.

11 Q. Were you lying down with your head in the canal or were

12 you kneeling down?

13 A. I was kneeling.

14 Q. How was he holding your head down into the canal?

15 A. He actually pressed the back of my head, the rifle butt

16 against the back of my head.

17 Q. Did the urine cover your face?

18 A. Yes, my head was immersed in the urine; my head, my

19 face, my mouth, my nose.

20 Q. Did you actually take the urine into your body?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Do you recall another incident when prisoners were

23 forced to eat grass?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Can you describe what happened on that occasion?

Page 6298

1 A. I will describe what happened to me.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Zenga called me out. There were some other guards

4 there, I believe that Zeba Cosic from the Muslim village

5 of Idbar was also there. There they started to hit me

6 and they ordered me to eat grass, to pluck the grass, so

7 I grazed and I swallowed. I was subjected to the same

8 treatment later by this guard from Idbar several times,

9 on several occasions and Zenga did not force me to graze

10 again.

11 Q. So what you are saying is, it was only one occasion when

12 Zenga forced you to eat the grass?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall an incident seeing something happen when a

15 prisoner was forced to drink large quantities of

16 alcohol?

17 A. Yes, I do. This was Vukasin Mrkajic. We would be taken

18 out and this was done by Hazim Delic. He would order us

19 out in front of hangar number 6, and we had to sit on

20 the concrete in rows. We would have to strip naked to

21 the waist, and then on one occasion after having taken

22 us out and ordered us to sit thus, he brought for

23 Vukasin Mrkajic a bottle, a cognac bottle, and told him

24 to gulp it down over a very short period.

25 Q. Who told him to do this?

Page 6299

1 A. Delic did. Then Vukasin Mrkajic had to. Then he had to

2 imitate the driving of a car, a car riding in terms of

3 sounds that a car made and also to present the picture

4 of a car being driven around. The guards and Delic

5 found this very amusing and funny and they laughed.

6 Q. While you were in the camp did you know of two brothers

7 who were prisoners there by the name Dordic?

8 A. Yes, I did, in the camp. I had not known them before

9 I came to the camp.

10 Q. Where were they in the camp so that you came to know

11 them?

12 A. They were brought later. They were brought later than

13 the day to when I was brought to hangar number 6.

14 I believe they were brought when this incident took

15 place, the one involving Muslim soldiers who were

16 ambushed by their own people and who were killed on that

17 occasion. I believe it was on that day, but I am not

18 quite sure. They were brought and they were put on the

19 right side from the door, inside, in the camp --

20 Q. In the same hangar as you?

21 A. Yes, in 6, in number 6.

22 Q. Did you see something happen to these people, these two

23 men?

24 A. I did. I saw them being hit frequently, hit hard. On

25 one occasion, Zenga ordered one of the two -- actually

Page 6300

1 forced one of the two to perform oral sex, fellatio. He

2 ordered one of them to strip bare, down to his knees,

3 and the other one had to hold his genitals in the mouth

4 to perform fellatio.

5 Q. Were you able to see this from where you were?

6 A. Of course.

7 Q. Did he actually take the other man's genitals into his

8 mouth from what you could see?

9 A. One of the brothers had to put the other brother's

10 member in his mouth, because Zenga threatened that he

11 would kill them both unless he did it.

12 Q. Had Zenga beaten them prior to forcing them to do this?

13 A. Yes, of course, very much so.

14 Q. Apart from Zenga, were any of the other guards there at

15 the time?

16 A. Osman Dedic, of those that were inside. I do not know

17 who was outside. They laughed at the scene and we could

18 hear voices coming from outside as well, from in front

19 of the door. We could hear laughter actually.

20 Q. Apart from these incidents, were prisoners ever forced

21 to sing songs or say prayers? Did incidents like that

22 occur?

23 A. I did not sing, but I heard from the detainees that some

24 did sing. On one occasion Delic took us out in front of

25 number 6 and ordered us to sit down on the concrete.

Page 6301

1 From the town of Konjic then came a wealthy man by the

2 name of Smajic, whose nickname was Kurecen, and Delic

3 ordered us to utter, to say "Allah U Akbar". He would

4 ask, he would say, Delic, "who is the greatest?" We

5 would say "Allah" once, and the other time Kurecen.

6 Q. How long did this go on for?

7 A. This went on for some 20 minutes or half an hour,

8 perhaps.

9 Q. Did it only happen on the one occasion, so far as you

10 are concerned, or did it happen more than once?

11 A. It only happened once, at least as far as I myself am

12 concerned.

13 Q. Do you recall an occasion when the International

14 Committee of the Red Cross visited the Celebici camp?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. When did they come to the camp?

17 A. They came, we had been registered. We were registered

18 on 12th August 1992. This was the first time when they

19 came to visit the camp in Celebici. There was

20 Mr. Michel, I believe he was French. He was the head of

21 this team that visited Celebici.

22 Q. Apart from registering the prisoners, did they do

23 anything else while they were there that you could see?

24 A. Yes, they did. During one visit of theirs, when they

25 came as we were going out to urinate, Mr. Michel had a

Page 6302

1 stopwatch in his hand and he stood by the door and he

2 measured the time during which we were to perform it

3 all. I believe that the time was around two minutes per

4 group of 20 inmates. I know that he waved his head, but

5 nothing changed for the better after that.

6 Q. Did the Red Cross come back again after the initial

7 visits?

8 A. They were there then, and after they had registered us,

9 they left -- he left. They came later again after a

10 certain period of time. I do not know after how long,

11 but two months must have elapsed.

12 Q. I am going to ask you, if you would, to describe for the

13 court some of the conditions that prevailed in the camp

14 during the period of time you were there. Firstly, can

15 you tell their Honours the toilet facilities that were

16 available to the inmates in the camp during that time?

17 You have given some description, I think, in your

18 evidence of the place where you had to urinate, but can

19 you give the Chamber some more details of what

20 facilities were provided for you in relation to toilets?

21 A. Yes, I will describe these conditions for you. While

22 I was in number 22 we would go out to go to the toilet,

23 which was outside. This was the procedure; we had to

24 put caps, pull down caps on our heads and then we would

25 go to the toilet thus, and on our way to the toilet and

Page 6303

1 on our way back they would hit us. They gave this sort

2 of a cap, the guards gave us a cap. Where they got it

3 from I do not know.

4 Each one of us had to put this cap on his head so

5 that they would not be recognised, that we would not be

6 recognised when we were being beaten. After some time,

7 we did not use this cap any longer. The conditions in

8 number 6 were horrendous. We lay in hangar number 6 on

9 the concrete floor, and I slept on the bare concrete

10 floor for some two or three months. There were no baths

11 in the beginning at all. We were not allowed any

12 visits. No one could come to bring us a fresh change of

13 underwear.

14 For a toilet, we used some kind of a bucket which

15 was inside the hangar, it stood by the door.

16 Q. Was there any privacy provided for the toilet?

17 A. I do not understand.

18 Q. Did the toilet have any sort of screen around it so you

19 could have some privacy when you were going to the

20 toilet?

21 A. No, none at all, just a metre or two from this bucket

22 were the other inmates, the other detainees who were

23 accommodated to the right from the door. Also to the

24 left from the door there were also detainees. We used

25 this bucket most often at night when we would be shut

Page 6304

1 up, locked up. In the day, we did not dare be found

2 there by any of the guards; that is to say when the

3 guards came in or when Delic came in. We had to sit in

4 our respective places.

5 There was a foul stench and we also had our meals

6 in that same place. It was very dusty, filthy. The

7 people were infested with lice and I myself also had

8 lice. The conditions were appalling.

9 Q. Where you sat in your place, did they give you anything

10 at all to sit on, or did you sit straight on to the

11 concrete?

12 A. During the first two months I sit on the bare concrete.

13 Later we were allowed to have a blanket each; we were

14 allowed that our people could bring us a blanket each

15 from our home, so I got a blanket and later I sat on it.

16 Q. Were you at any stage offered medical treatment while

17 you were in the camp?

18 A. While I was in the camp, in number 6?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I was beaten many times and never was any medical

21 assistance extended to me.

22 Q. What was the food and water supplied to you like? Can

23 you describe that?

24 A. The food was horrible. For a time, we only received a

25 loaf of bread for 17 detainees. One loaf had to be

Page 6305

1 shared between 17 detainees, without any vegetables.

2 Then later we would get some cooked food, some

3 vegetables. We went to eat in groups of five, right

4 there next to the door where the bucket which

5 I described was. That bucket would be taken out during

6 the day. One detainee could have four or five spoonfuls

7 of rice, mostly it was rice, sometimes it was too salty,

8 sometimes it was not salty enough, but the main thing is

9 it was never sufficient. It was not enough in terms of

10 quantity, and we all used five spoons, and we ate in

11 groups of five.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mr. Niemann. I think we will break

14 now and come back at 4.30.

15 (4.00 pm)

16 (A short break)

17 (4.30 pm)

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

19 You may proceed, Mr. Niemann.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, when you were in

21 the Celebici camp, did you know a person who was also a

22 prisoner in the camp by the name of Damir Gotovac?

23 A. Damir Gotovac? Yes, I did know him before the war

24 because he is from my village of Bjelovcina, but he

25 lived in Celebici for a time and he was born in

Page 6306

1 Bjelovcina.

2 Q. When he was in the camp, was he kept in the same hangar

3 as yourself?

4 A. Yes, he was in hangar number 6.

5 Q. Do you recall an incident which involved both you and

6 Damir Gotovac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What happened?

9 A. On one occasion he was taken out, his name was called

10 out.

11 Q. Who called him out, do you know?

12 A. Zenga. One heard a cry, and maybe about ten minutes

13 later one of the guards, I do not now recall which,

14 called me out as well. I saw Damir there, Zenga was

15 hitting him and he fainted and fell to the ground. Then

16 Zenga told me to kill him, I mean to beat him to death.

17 I said I could not do that. Let him kill me. Then they

18 started hitting me, Zenga was there, and I think Osman

19 Dedic as well. They started hitting me and then they

20 ordered Damir to kill me. He refused, he said he could

21 not do it. Then they beat both of us. I do not know

22 how long this lasted. It was not for long, maybe half a

23 hour, and then they sent us back into the hangar.

24 Q. When you saw Damir when you went out there and he had

25 been beaten, was he wearing anything that you can recall

Page 6307

1 on his head?

2 A. Yes, he had a protective mask, military mask.

3 Q. Did that cover his face?

4 A. Yes, this mask was on his head. It was a gas mask.

5 Q. You mentioned earlier in your evidence that you saw the

6 camp commander, Mr. Mucic, come to the camp on a number

7 of occasions.

8 A. Mr. Zdravko Mucic is somebody I did not know from before,

9 but the first night I spent in Celebici in the camp in

10 number 22, Pavo came with, I think, Pero Serbia, as he

11 was called, came with him. I learnt that later from the

12 other detainees. He came through the door of room 22,

13 and he said that he was the camp commander or head of

14 the camp. I was standing near the door and the man who

15 was with him was pushing us. Pavo said that we stank,

16 that we smelled bad. He looked us over. I do not

17 remember whether he spoke to anyone, but he left soon

18 afterwards.

19 Q. You have also said in your evidence that when you first

20 arrived at the Celebici camp you were in room number 22

21 and you then went to hangar number 6. Did you stay in

22 hangar number 6 for the entire period or the balance of

23 the period that you were in Celebici, or did you go

24 somewhere else?

25 A. No, from hangar number 6 when a large number of

Page 6308

1 detainees were transferred to the sports hall in Musala,

2 there were 32 of us left, 32 detainees, who were

3 transferred to room 22 where I had been before.

4 Q. When did you ultimately leave the camp?

5 A. On 9th December we were transferred to the sports hall

6 in Konjic.

7 Q. Did Mr. Landzo stay at the camp for the whole time that

8 you were there, or did he leave?

9 A. For a period of time, I do not know exactly from which

10 date until which date, he was not at the camp in

11 Celebici, but this was a short period of time.

12 Q. Do you know anything about the circumstances of how it

13 is that he came to leave the camp?

14 A. I do not know exactly, but I heard that --

15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object as to his

16 personal knowledge. We do not know where he heard this

17 from. I know my learned colleague Mr. Niemann knows he

18 needs to lay the proper basis.

19 MR. NIEMANN: I will not press it. Just tell us what you

20 yourself know.

21 Was Mr. Mucic at the camp for the whole period of

22 time you were there, that is the Celebici camp, or did

23 he leave at some stage?

24 A. Zdravko Mucic, known as Pavo, would come by

25 occasionally. Sometimes he would not be there for as

Page 6309

1 long as ten days.

2 Q. After you left Celebici camp, where were you taken then?

3 A. From Celebici, you mean?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I was taken to the sports hall at the Musala prison in

6 Konjic, with the 32 detainees, the last remaining group

7 of detainees.

8 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the Musala facility?

9 A. When I arrived at Musala, at that time I am not quite

10 sure, but I think somebody called Broceta, but I do not

11 know his first name.

12 Q. Did he remain the commander of that camp or facility, or

13 did the command change?

14 A. During our stay at the sports hall in Konjic quite a

15 number of the prison administrators changed.

16 Q. Among the prison population in Musala, I mean the people

17 who were being detained, I should say, were any of the

18 former guards from Celebici there being detained along

19 with the other people?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. Can you tell us who they were?

22 A. A guard who was in Celebici, Kemo -- I think his name

23 was Mrndzic, for a time he was in charge of the camp in

24 Konjic. In Celebici, he beat us, but in Konjic, he was

25 a good commander.

Page 6310

1 Q. Anyone else that you can think of that was also being

2 detained in Musala?

3 A. I do not understand. What do you mean, detained?

4 Q. Imprisoned there, kept there as a prisoner. Any of the

5 former personnel from Celebici?

6 A. Yes, I understand now. For a time Esad Landzo was

7 imprisoned there, Hazim Delic, who had been at Celebici,

8 and they were also prisoners in Konjic at Musala.

9 Q. When Hazim Delic was also being detained as a prisoner

10 in Musala, did you have a conversation with him?

11 A. At that time we were upstairs in a part of the building

12 that was known as the gym. He could come up whenever he

13 wanted. He came during the daytime. He did not talk to

14 me but he spoke to some other detainees.

15 Q. Did you hear the conversation?

16 A. He would come in and once --

17 Q. I only want you to tell us if you actually heard him

18 speak yourself.

19 A. On one occasion, I cannot recall exactly who he was

20 talking to, one of the detainees, he said that the data

21 about all the victims from Celebici, when they were

22 born, what village they came from, even how old they

23 were -- I can say that much, nothing more.

24 Q. During the period of time that you were detained in

25 Musala camp, was there any mistreatment to the prisoners

Page 6311

1 occurring that you could observe?

2 A. Yes, for a time when Edo Zilic was in charge of the

3 camp, or the prison rather, ten of us, and I was one of

4 them, were told to go do some labour --

5 Q. I will not ask you to go into details, I just wanted you

6 to say yes or no, whether it occurred -- whether there

7 was any mistreatment while you were in the Musala camp,

8 but I will not ask you to give details of that.

9 A. There was less, but there was some. Less, much less.

10 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The order in which you have agreed to

12 take the cross-examination?

13 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Yes, your Honour. First counsel for

14 Mr. Delalic, second counsel for Mr. Mucic, third counsel

15 for Mr. Delic and fourth counsel for Mr. Landzo.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms. Residovic.

17 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

18 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. Vukalo.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for

21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I would like to ask you, Mr. Vukalo,

22 to wait to hear the interpretation of my question, the

23 interpretation into English, and when the interpretation

24 is over to answer my question, because in that way

25 everyone can follow what we are saying. Have I made

Page 6312

1 myself clear?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vukalo, in the course of your

4 examination-in-chief by the Prosecutor you provided the

5 basic data about yourself. We know that you came from

6 Konjic, that before the war you were working at the

7 Igman factory until you were laid off just before the

8 war.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Vukalo, I would like to know whether you became a

11 member of the SDS immediately after it was founded in

12 the municipality of Konjic?

13 A. After the SDS party was founded, and the SDA party, the

14 HDZ party, I did not immediately join, but on one

15 occasion a man from the village of Bjelovcina who was a

16 drunkard, actually, I do not know how that came about,

17 but he joined the party and he picked up some membership

18 cards. Then he distributed those cards in the village.

19 Of course, he asked for some money for these cards, and

20 that is how in my village, people joined that party, so

21 that it was really not very serious.

22 Q. Therefore in 1992, before the outbreak of the conflict

23 in the territory of the Konjic municipality, Mr. Vukalo,

24 you became a member of the SDS in that way, did you not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6313

1 Q. Can you tell me, what is the name of the man who

2 distributed these membership cards?

3 A. I can, his name was Bozo Bendzo.

4 Q. Thank you. Were you aware that the SDS of Konjic was

5 preparing and then in March 1992 actually adopted a

6 decision on the formation of the Serb municipality of

7 Konjic to which your village of Bjelovcina was to

8 belong?

9 A. I knew very little about these things. I hardly knew

10 anything, in fact.

11 Q. Is it true, judging from the little that you did know,

12 that other citizens of Konjic who were not Serbs, knew

13 about this and who were severely opposed to such

14 activities, believing that this would break up the

15 municipality and that it was an anti-constitutional act?

16 A. My village was quite far removed from the town of

17 Konjic, and I did not know anything about this, who was

18 against and who was for this, and I was in the village

19 at the time.

20 Q. However, as you have already testified, at that time you

21 were working at the Igman factory in Konjic, which is

22 the most powerful, the most important factory in the

23 municipality. It is mostly engaged in military

24 production but you were working in the civilian

25 department. I want to know whether you noticed among

Page 6314

1 your colleagues from different ethnic groups, whether

2 they were disturbed by these activities?

3 A. I have already said that I was sent home to wait, and

4 I was at home.

5 Q. Will you tell me, please, Mr. Vukalo, is it true that

6 with that aim in mind, which you said you knew very

7 little about, the illegal arming of the Serb population

8 started by the JNA through the SDS?

9 A. As far as the arming is concerned, I was living in this

10 hamlet, Vukalo, which was about a kilometre away from

11 the closest hamlet, and I do not know exactly what was

12 happening.

13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you know where Borci, Bjela and these places

14 are in the eastern part of the Konjic municipality in

15 the direction of Mount Prenj, on Mount Prenj actually?

16 A. Yes, of course, I do from before the war.

17 Q. And you probably know, Mr. Vukalo, that already in April

18 a part of the Serb population from the city was moving

19 in the direction of the Borci Lake?

20 A. As far as I know, I do not think anyone went from my

21 village. As for other villages and the town, maybe they

22 did, I do not know.

23 Q. But you probably know that Kister and Borci were already

24 under the control of the Serb forces already by then?

25 A. I am not aware of any Serb Army being there, nor do

Page 6315

1 I know anything about this.

2 Q. Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, that the other villages in which

3 the Serbs constituted a majority were also being armed

4 and that they had formed village guards on the main

5 roads, interrupted traffic, allegedly defending

6 themselves from attack?

7 A. My village, as I said, was surrounded by seven or eight

8 and more, perhaps, Muslim villages. In the direction of

9 the town there was the Croatian village of Pokojiste,

10 and the majority Serb population was in the village of

11 Bradina, so I do not know at all how this happened or

12 what happened.

13 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you were working in a military factory,

14 Igman, and you must know that the arming of the

15 Territorial Defence of the municipalities of Jablanica,

16 Konjic and Borci were housed in the Ljuta area in

17 Konjic?

18 A. I was working in the civilian section of the Igman

19 factory and never in my life did I go into the military

20 section of the factory. What there was there, I do not

21 know.

22 Q. Mr. Vukalo, before your testimony here today, and before

23 you spoke to the authorised representative of the

24 Prosecutor of this Tribunal, did you also make a

25 statement before the district court of Belgrade in

Page 6316

1 October 1995?

2 A. I gave a statement, I made a statement in Belgrade to

3 this committee for the investigation of war crimes.

4 I do not remember the person before whom I made this

5 statement, and I also made a statement in the office of

6 The Hague Tribunal in Belgrade, and that is all.

7 Q. Mr. Vukalo, are you son of Spaso?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you were born on 29th March 1964?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You say now, and you are aware of the fact that you are

12 speaking under oath, are you not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now you say that in October 1995 you did not make a

15 statement to the district court in Belgrade on

16 22nd October 1995?

17 A. I gave a statement to a man from this committee. That

18 is how he introduced himself, from the committee, from

19 Belgrade, as a court for the investigation of war

20 crimes.

21 Q. Did this man who examined you introduce himself as

22 Paunovic Miodrag, investigative judge?

23 A. I believe that he did -- yes, he did.

24 Q. Did this judge, Mr. Vukalo, warn you that it was your

25 duty to tell the truth and that you were not to withhold

Page 6317

1 anything and that you were also warned of the

2 consequences of perjury and that you had the duty to

3 answer the questions put to you and that you were only

4 not to answer those questions, in respect of yourself or

5 a close relative of yours, which would inflict serious

6 outrage upon you or a relative of yours, or entail

7 material damage or a material prosecution for them; did

8 the judge warn you of this?

9 A. He asked me -- normally he asked me questions, and he

10 asked me to tell him -- of course, he asked me to tell

11 him the truth and I told him the truth.

12 Q. And you signed every single page of what you had stated

13 before that judge?

14 A. I did sign something, probably that.

15 Q. Counsel, if I read a part of this statement, please be

16 so kind as to tell me whether you had indeed stated this

17 to the judge. On page 2:

18 "In our quarters we Serbs are in the minority, but

19 we relied upon the JNA and believed they would protect

20 us. This belief was based on promises which the

21 military commanders gave to Rajko Djordjic and other

22 prominent Serbs in the area. The JNA, as far as I can

23 recall, in April 1992, the JNA, as an armed force,

24 withdrew from the region of Konjic, and Muslim forces

25 took over the military facilities."

Page 6318

1 Did you state this, Mr. Vukalo?

2 A. That is the way it was formulated. Could you please be

3 so kind, I apologise, as to repeat it once again.

4 Q. "In this area, we Serbs are in the minority, but we

5 relied on the JNA and we believed they would protect

6 us. This belief was based on the promises made by the

7 military commanders to Rajko Djordjic and other

8 prominent Serbs in the area. As far as I can remember

9 in April 1992 the JNA withdrew from the area of Konjic

10 as an armed force."

11 A. This knowledge, only when I went out from the camp to be

12 exchanged, actually I only heard then that some promises

13 of that kind were being given to Rajko, but I do not

14 know of it myself, whether that was actually the case,

15 but when I left, when I left the camp, I heard that from

16 some people down there in Ilidza.

17 Q. Mr. Vukalo, please, on the basis of these facts which you

18 presented to the judge as your own knowledge, do you

19 know that the JNA as an armed force gave armaments

20 through the SDS to the Serb population in the area of

21 the municipality of Konjic?

22 A. That it gave arms to the Serb population, that the JNA

23 gave arms to the Serb population is something I do not

24 know.

25 Q. You have said before this Tribunal that in your village,

Page 6319

1 there was no defence at all, there had been no

2 preparations for a defence and that you had no arms; is

3 that so?

4 A. I said that I lived in my hamlet, in this hamlet where

5 there were five or six households, all by the surname of

6 Vukalo, and that as far as I knew there were very few

7 men in the entire village, able bodied men, that is, and

8 the village was surrounded by seven to eight Muslim

9 villages, and the Croat village of Pokojiste was also in

10 the surrounding belt and I was not aware of any

11 organising actions for defence.

12 Q. Mr. Vukalo, in that statement when you were warned that

13 it was your duty to tell the truth, just to remind you,

14 I shall read a statement and please tell me whether it

15 is true you stated this to the judge in Belgrade.

16 Page 2, paragraph 2:

17 "In order to protect ourselves and to preserve our

18 lives, the lives of the members of our families and our

19 property, we organised ourselves to defend ourselves

20 with the few arms that we had. We maintained guard duty

21 in order not to be suddenly attacked."

22 Are these the words that you said under oath to

23 the judge in Belgrade?

24 A. I arrived in Belgrade from the Serb republic, Republika

25 Srpska, then I was tired. I had used all sorts of

Page 6320

1 means of transportation to get there. Normally there

2 was some hunting weapons in the village, some hunting

3 rifles, and some people did have pistols, perhaps, but

4 I do not know of it. I do not know who. There may have

5 been some weapons, that is to say, I do not know how

6 many. The people in the various hamlets which composed

7 the village, we have these hamlets with five or ten

8 households in each, with 500 metres or a kilometre

9 dividing one from another.

10 Q. Thank you. But after you have explained this to us, now

11 this means, Mr. Vukalo, that this morning when answering

12 the questions of my distinguished colleague, the

13 Prosecutor, in connection with whether there had been

14 any defence and weapons and you replied in the negative,

15 you were not exactly giving wholly the exact facts that

16 you are aware of; is that not so?

17 A. I said that in my hamlet there was no defence mounted at

18 all, nor anything of the kind. That is what I said.

19 Q. Mr. Vukalo, if, before the investigating judge of the

20 district court in Belgrade, before whom you also gave an

21 account under oath, if then you said, "We did put up a

22 resistance and the combat lasted for about an hour, but

23 as we were outnumbered, we were defeated and we had to

24 retreat and we moved in the surrounding forest until we

25 were caught in the days after that together with the

Page 6321

1 women and children", that certainly differs from what

2 you have stated before this court?

3 A. When my village was attacked, when my hamlet was

4 attacked, not a single bullet -- I did not hear a single

5 bullet being fired from the direction of the houses in

6 the hamlet in which I lived; nor did I hear any bullet

7 fired from the village.

8 Later, after I had already been locked up in

9 Celebici, I found out that no one had been killed by the

10 Croat or Muslim army.

11 Q. But I am asking you, Mr. Vukalo, I only read your words,

12 the words you said in front of the investigative judge

13 in Belgrade. I am not discussing the fact whether they

14 are truthful or not, I just want to submit it to you

15 that in this record which you have signed, you have said

16 "we put up a resistance and the fight lasted for about

17 an hour" and so on and so forth. Did you state this

18 before that judge?

19 A. Maybe it was formulated thus, but that is not what

20 I said, that is for sure.

21 Q. So the judge wrote this down although you did not say it

22 in that way?

23 A. It may have been formulated thus, but that is certainly

24 not what I stated. There was no resistance, and later

25 I also found out in Celebici that no one had put up any

Page 6322

1 resistance, even the people that did have the hunting

2 rifles did not use them.

3 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you have just now said that you were admitted

4 to the SDS by Bendzo Dusko?

5 A. No, Bosko.

6 Q. I apologise, thank you. Do you know Dusko Bendzo?

7 A. He lives at the far end, at the beginning, so to speak,

8 of the village of Bjelovcina, and I am in the upper

9 section, on the other end, but I do know him.

10 Q. Bjelovcina is not a very large village. How many

11 inhabitants does it have?

12 A. Not too many, but the distances are great from hamlet to

13 hamlet.

14 Q. Do you know Strahinja Zivak, known as Strajo, from

15 Brdjani?

16 A. That is the man whose sons were executed in Bradina.

17 Two of his sons were shot in Bradina, that is what

18 I heard. Do you mean that man?

19 Q. I do not know, I am asking you whether you know this

20 person. Do you know Strahinja Zivak who was the

21 vice-president of the SDS in the municipality of Konjic?

22 A. I have heard that two of his sons were executed down

23 there in Bradina, and I may have seen him, but I cannot

24 exactly say that I know him well.

25 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that Dusko Bendzo was entrusted,

Page 6323

1 together with Strahinja Zivak, with arming the Serb

2 population in the area of your village?

3 A. I do not know of that.

4 Q. Mr. Vukalo, is it true that the deputy of Dusko Bendzo

5 was Slavoljub Bendzo, do you know him?

6 A. I know Slavoljub Bendzo. I do not believe he engaged in

7 any activities of that kind.

8 Q. Do you know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, Mr. Vukalo?

9 A. Of course I know Miro Djurdjic and Mirco Babic, of

10 course. They are from my village but from another

11 hamlet.

12 Q. Do you know that they had been charged with the task in

13 the SDS, of which you just happened to be a member, to

14 maintain contact, liaise with Strahinja Zivak?

15 A. Possibly. I cannot claim anything to that effect.

16 Q. Did you, Mr. Vukalo, somewhere around the end of January,

17 receive a call for the Reserve Corps of the JNA and

18 towards the end of that year actually join the reserve

19 corps in Mostar?

20 A. I hardly managed to serve the regular service in the

21 JNA, because of cardiac surgery, which, of course,

22 I have evidence of. I was operated on by Professor

23 Isidor Papo, so that I was not capable -- I was not

24 exactly militarily capable.

25 Q. Yes, I have heard that, Mr. Vukalo. You said so in

Page 6324

1 connection with your service in the army of which you

2 served the whole term, in fact. What I want to know is,

3 did you respond to this call for entering the Reserve

4 Corps in February in Mostar and then stay there perhaps

5 for a couple of days, for the same reasons as you

6 adduced here returned home; is that correct?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Mr. Vukalo, you have stated before this Tribunal that you

9 did not have a rifle, that you were not armed, is that

10 so?

11 A. No, I did not have a rifle of my own, no, I did not have

12 a rifle.

13 Q. Is it nevertheless true, Mr. Vukalo, that you were issued

14 a machine gun?

15 A. Perhaps someone who did that also wrote that, but I am

16 not aware of any such fact myself. How these were

17 issued, I am not aware that they were issued at all.

18 I do not know.

19 Q. Do you know, Mr. Vukalo, Amir Dzelilovic?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. He is from Kralupi?

22 A. Yes, he is from Kralupi.

23 Q. Is it true, Mr. Vukalo, that you and your relative handed

24 over, in Kralupi, machine guns to Amir Dzelilovic?

25 A. When I came to Kralupi, some 100 metres away from the

Page 6325

1 village, I was taking my mother, an old and sick woman,

2 and my brother and a group with women and children from

3 the hamlet, they were following us. We were not exactly

4 all in one single group. I did not have any kind of

5 weapon with me, on me.

6 Q. You have said, Mr. Vukalo, that prior to this hearing you

7 had been heard by the representative of the Prosecutor

8 of the International Tribunal; is that so?

9 A. I did not understand you exactly. Can you please

10 repeat?

11 Q. In 1996, on 13th November, were you heard by a

12 representative of the Prosecutor's office of the

13 International Tribunal in The Hague?

14 A. In Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal, of The Hague

15 Tribunal, I gave a statement, yes. I do not remember

16 the date. I expect it is written there.

17 Q. Is it true that you told the truth to the best of your

18 knowledge to that investigator?

19 A. I do not recall exactly what I said to him. You can ask

20 me.

21 Q. Did you, at that time, Mr. Vukalo, sign a certificate

22 after the statement had been translated to you, in which

23 you said that you had given the statement of your own

24 volition, that you were aware that it could be used in a

25 procedure before this Tribunal, and that it was true and

Page 6326

1 faithful to your recollection; do you remember that?

2 A. I do not recall having said exactly that, but I did sign

3 something.

4 Q. In order to refresh your memory in respect of what you

5 told the investigator, I will read the following text,

6 which is also contained in the statement:

7 "I decided to try to surrender to the friends of

8 my relative Vlado from Kralupi to Amir Dzelilovic,

9 because the soldiers were shooting at random. Vlado,

10 I went to seek him. Around 100 metres from Kralupi we

11 surrendered to Amir and we also gave up the two rifles

12 that we had kept to protect ourselves. In total, there

13 were 20 of us who surrendered, including my mother."

14 Did you say that to the investigator?

15 A. The very expression as regards the expression

16 "surrender", I have a problem with it. I was not

17 fleeing with anyone. I approached Kralupi together with

18 the women, children, the elderly, the sick, the infirm.

19 We were scared because of the shooting and we tried to

20 get away from it, in a way, and we approached our

21 neighbours and wanted to approach our neighbours in the

22 village of Kralupi to protect us, to give us shelter.

23 We were beside ourselves with fear, we were surprised.

24 Q. Kralupi?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6327

1 Q. Is it true that you and Vlado handed over, surrendered

2 to Amir, his friend, two light machine guns?

3 A. I said that I was leading, taking my mother, old and

4 infirm and sick, with my brother and that there was this

5 staggered group of 20 of us, we were not all in a single

6 group, and I gave him no weapons. I had none. In fact,

7 I and my brother had to carry my mother.

8 Q. So if these words which I have just read to you are

9 written down as your words, then the investigator wrote

10 down something which you, in fact, did not say?

11 A. Maybe they did not understand, I do not know.

12 Q. Did you have occasion to hear a translation of

13 everything that you had said to them?

14 A. When I spoke, I was having a very hard time, I was very

15 embarrassed. At a certain point I really did not know

16 exactly what I was saying. It is a very unpleasant

17 memory for one to recall. I am trying to put it all

18 behind, to forget it all, if that is at all a feasible

19 proposition. I know that I had to stop every now and

20 then because I could not endure it, to keep remembering

21 those things.

22 Q. But you do confirm that there is a difference between

23 what I have read to you and that which you said in court

24 here today; is that true?

25 A. What I said here today and what you are reading, it may

Page 6328

1 be formulated the way you read it, but I repeat that

2 I had no weapons at all. Someone may have written that

3 down the way it is written, but I do not know. I know

4 that in Belgrade, in the office of the Tribunal of

5 The Hague, I was shaken. I stopped, I interrupted my

6 statement every now and then. I really had a hard time

7 giving it.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: It would be time, your Honour, to adjourn

9 today, for me to finish my cross-examination for today.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We will continue

11 tomorrow at 10.00 the cross-examination of this

12 witness.

13 (5.30 pm)

14 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)

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