1 Thursday, 4th September 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning ladies and gentlemen. Do
4 we have the appearances now?
5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann,
6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone,
7 Mr. Khan and Ms. Van Dusschoten for the Prosecution, if
8 your Honours please.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. May we have the
10 Defence appearances, please?
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. My name is
12 Edina Residovic, I appear on behalf of Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic, together with my co-counsel, Eugene O'Sullivan,
14 professor from Canada.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours. My name is Zeljko
16 Olujic, I appear on behalf of Mr. Pavo Zdravko Mucic,
17 together with my co-counsel, Michael Greaves, attorney
18 from Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
19 Your Honours, allow me, on behalf of my co-counsel
20 and myself, to express our gratitude for not resorting
21 to any disciplinary measures in relation to my client,
22 but in order to clarify the whole situation, my client,
23 after consultation with him, says that his intention was
24 not to communicate with the witness who was appearing in
25 the courtroom, but considering the position he was in,
1 he wanted to give a sign to the translation service when
2 the surnames Mucic, Masic and Music were referred to,
3 which are three quite different surnames. So as to
4 avoid any confusion he resorted to a means which is
5 certainly disruptive and not acceptable in the
6 courtroom, but he would like to express his gratitude to
7 the Trial Chamber for showing understanding, but he
8 wishes again to underline that he had no intention of
9 communicating with the witness, but simply to allow each
10 other to be able to see each other and to draw attention
11 to the translation service.
12 MR. KARABDIC: My name is Salih Karabdic, I appear on behalf
13 of Mr. Hazim Delic. With me is Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney
14 from Houston, Texas.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John
16 Ackerman, I appear here on behalf of Mr. Esad Landzo,
17 along with my co-counsel Ms. Cynthia McMurray.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, Mr. Olujic, for your
19 explanation of what happened yesterday. Nobody has any
20 intention of antagonising either a witness or an accused
21 person. All we want is for everyone involved in this
22 case to understand the gravity of it. It is not a
23 simple matter. It is complicated not only by social
24 implications, but also the very freedom of those
25 involved in it. All we are doing here -- and we expect
1 them to understand that and appreciate that they should
2 deal with everything concerning the trial with
3 sufficient seriousness, to behave in a way, as you
4 rightly said, he did not intend to disrupt, but
5 definitely mere intention is not sufficient if the act
6 itself can constitute a disruption. We appeal to
7 everyone to appreciate that we want this trial to go on
8 smoothly and without further incidents. Thank you very
10 Can we have the witness now, please?
11 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, before we have the witness
12 brought in, may I make a remark, with your indulgence,
13 your Honours. I should like to draw the attention of
14 the Trial Chamber that at the beginning of these
15 proceedings it was stated, and the practice was for us
16 to receive the transcript on the same day about 7.00
17 pm. However, this practice has been changed, so that
18 for example for yesterday's proceedings, we have still
19 not received the transcript. We were told that the rule
20 was for us to receive it about 10.00 am the following
21 day. This makes our work additionally difficult,
22 because we are unable to check in time the transcript
23 and to make any objections, if we have any. This change
24 in the practice of the proceedings affects us in
25 particular today, because in consultation with other
1 colleagues we see that we have certain remarks to make
2 regarding the interpretation of yesterday's testimony of
3 the witness, and the transcript as a whole.
4 The attorneys who speak both English and Bosnian
5 have noticed many errors in the translation which change
6 the meaning. I cannot be more specific straight away,
7 and to point to this and that page or this and that
8 line, because I do not have yesterday's transcript, but
9 I should like to request that we review the tape of
10 yesterday's proceedings and that the whole transcript be
11 retranslated. This could correct some errors, because
12 it is only possible to correct errors in translating the
13 answers, but errors made in translating the questions
14 cannot be corrected, and we should try in the course of
15 the morning to repeat those questions that were
16 incorrectly interpreted and to ask the witness to
17 provide fresh answers to them.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, in view of the fact that this
19 matter has been raised, on behalf of Mr. Delalic's
20 Defence counsel, I should also like to ask the court to
21 help us to follow the proceedings as well as possible
22 and particularly to make sure that everything that is
23 stated in the courtroom should be included in the
24 transcript. Already during the testimony of Mr. Panzer,
25 we noticed that important errors, and we drew attention
1 to the head of the translation service immediately on
2 the same day, that this witness was saying one thing and
3 we have something else in the interpretation into
4 Bosnian. This was not so significant when the questions
5 were put to the witness by my colleague Eugene
6 O'Sullivan in English and the answers were then
7 retranslated into English, but those errors became much
8 more pronounced yesterday when neither was the question
9 put in English translated correctly into Bosnian, so the
10 witness certainly did not understand that he was being
11 asked; and similarly, the answer given on several
12 occasions changed not only the names of people and
13 places but also the very substance of what the witness
14 was saying in answer to the question put to him.
15 In addition, I must note that in this courtroom in
16 the last few months, we have frequently heard the name
17 Delalic used with, in addition, Zejnil, Zail, Emir,
18 Sefik, Zajka and many other names, because I am sure the
19 court already realises that we have large families with
20 the same surname in that region, but we have been able
21 to note that whenever the surname Delalic is mentioned,
22 the first name Zejnil appears in the transcript. We
23 have drawn attention to this and also listened to the
24 tape and asked for the correction to be made, but to
25 this day we have still not received the correction, and
1 that is why we would like to ask the court, in addition
2 to providing us with the opportunity to react in time to
3 any such errors in the transcript, that also any
4 correction that we make we must receive that correction
5 on the relevant page at the latest within 48 hours.
6 MR. OLUJIC: We should like to associate ourselves with what
7 has been said by our colleagues regarding the question
8 of translation, but we would like to note that
9 specifically yesterday, the Music, Macic, Mucic and
10 Fikret Masic were mentioned, whereas the transcript
11 reflected Mucic, so this is a major cause of confusion
12 which may not appear to be so significant for somebody
13 who is not from the region and will not realise that we
14 are talking about four quite different names. That is
15 why I would like to fully support the previous
16 colleagues in their statements. (Pause).
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am sorry we kept you waiting. It is
18 a very serious complaint about misleading
19 interpretations, thereby changing perhaps the nature of
20 either the questions or the answers, so making it fairly
21 difficult for one to determine what was being asked or
22 what has been answered. That is a fairly difficult
23 thing to resolve without inviting the witness again to
24 repeat the whole process, because that is the only way
25 we can correct that, except, of course, I do not know
1 one can spot the mistaken words or names and then put
2 that to the witness who then tells you what you
3 understood by the names.
4 The aspect of receiving the transcript the same
5 day, I think that is the responsibility of the Registry
6 and I think we will bring that to their notice so that
7 they will comply immediately, so that will make it
8 fairly easy for errors of this nature to be spotted
9 immediately so at the next sitting we will know what to
10 do to sort out mistakes.
11 I suppose if the main problem is the
12 interpretation, which is perhaps what I see, the whole
13 picture, it means a more serious examination of who the
14 interpreter is and how efficient that interpreter is,
15 and I know there are quite a number of them. Since you
16 have different levels of interpretation, it depends
17 on -- but this is not a thing the Trial Chamber can
18 itself handle. We can inform the Registry and they will
19 take appropriate action.
20 For the immediate problem, we perhaps will know
21 what to do.
22 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps, your Honour, on behalf of the
23 Prosecution I might say something by way of assistance
24 to the Chamber. I think it is a very difficult job for
25 the Chamber to try and deal with this particular
1 problem, and I think it is brought about by the fact
2 that the interpreters are given an enormously complex
3 task in endeavouring to do the simultaneous translation,
4 as your Honours may be more accustomed to the
5 translation where the witness speaks and then the
6 translator follows, which is another way of doing it.
7 That probably tends to be slightly more accurate but is
8 very much slower and would drag the proceedings down to
9 a snail's pace. We do have the advantages of the
10 simultaneous translation which may perhaps not always be
11 as accurate, but in my experience of appearing in this
12 court is extraordinarily accurate, having regard to the
13 enormous task which these people are confronted with.
14 Your Honours, I think there is a safety net and
15 I think it exists and the safety net is that there is
16 the simultaneous translation -- simultaneous transcript
17 which is appearing on the screen that counsel are free
18 to watch and if an error occurs to immediately draw that
19 to the attention of the court and correct it. I am sure
20 that your Honours would not be too disturbed if counsel
21 did that because I think it is important if it can be
22 corrected at the time. The other thing your Honours is
23 that it is video recorded so the actual oral -- the
24 voice of the witness and the physical image is still
25 retained, so not all is lost.
1 In addition to that, there is this process with
2 the transcript when each day when counsel get the
3 transcript they can go through it and correct it. I do
4 not think it is true to say that whatever is recorded
5 initially the first time when the witness speaks is the
6 end of the matter by any means in terms of transcript.
7 There is an opportunity to correct that.
8 All these things are available and I am not sure
9 it is a case of necessarily being one particular
10 interpreter as opposed to another. I think there are
11 going to be errors from time to time in this enormously
12 complex process we are going through, where
13 interpretation is not translation, it is merely a
14 process of giving in another language what that is
15 believed to have been said in another, and there is
16 always variations, even in the most precise
17 illustrations of it.
18 Your Honours, in my submission, what I can suggest
19 to counsel for the Defence is greater reliance should be
20 put on the facilities that are available to them, such
21 as the television, such as the transcript and such as
22 the video recording.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. My colleague
24 wants to say something.
25 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, this colleague.
2 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: He is referring to me.
3 MR. MORAN: I am sorry, judge. I apologise. Sometimes I do
4 not do real well in English. I do not do well at all in
5 Serbo-Croatian, by sometimes my English is not very
7 JUDGE ODIO BENITO: Thank you. Very briefly I would like to
8 take the opportunity to beg, to remind everyone in this
9 courtroom to speak slowly and clearly, because that
10 helps a lot the work of the interpreters. It is really
11 difficult from time to time to follow, especially some
12 Anglo-Saxon speaking people. I am looking at you,
13 Mr. Niemann. Please remind that, speak clearly and
14 slowly. That really would help the work of the
15 interpreters. Thank you.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just wanted to add a couple of
17 things if I could for just a moment. In the first
18 place, it is impossible for those of us who do not speak
19 Serbo-Croatian, and I think that probably includes
20 Mr. Niemann, to know whether the translation is accurate
21 or not by sitting here and looking at our screens and
22 watching it go by, so some of us are not in a position
23 to do as Mr. Niemann suggests.
24 The other difficulty, which I am sure is not
25 absolutely clear to all the courtroom at this point, is
1 that if the question is misinterpreted to the witness,
2 then the answer may have little relation to what we
3 thought we had asked the witness.
4 Then I must also point out that during the
5 testimony of Mr. Panzer, although I do not speak fluent
6 German by any means, I speak enough German to know that
7 on several occasions, Mr. Panzer's answer in German
8 was, "Ich weiss es nicht", which means "I do not know",
9 and it was frequently interpreted as "I do not
10 remember". With regard to some questions that could be
11 a profound difference. I did not feel comfortable
12 enough with my German to rise and point that out at that
13 point, but it was pointed out to me by some others
14 outside this courtroom at a later time, confirming what
15 I had thought at the time.
16 I do want to point out the difficulty for those of
17 us who do not speak Serbo-Croatian to try to correct
18 this matter while it is ongoing. Perhaps as Mr. Niemann
19 suggests and as Judge Odio Benito has just suggested, we
20 do need to slow down rather profoundly when we are doing
21 Serbo-Croatian interpretations because I understand the
22 burden that is on those people up there in that booth to
23 try to keep up with us and it is very difficult to do.
24 Maybe the only solution is for us to be a little
25 more vigilant, those who do speak Serbo-Croatian and for
1 us all to slow down significantly so that the
2 interpretations have the opportunity to be more
3 accurate. Thank you.
4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I agree with Mr. Ackerman. Let me
5 expand on it for just a bit. In America one of the
6 practices is if the lawyer is talking a little fast, the
7 court reporter will just pipe up and say "slow down,
8 I cannot get it". I am told by the court reporters here
9 that is not the practice in the United Kingdom where
10 they come from, but perchance, because both the
11 interpreters and the court reporters frankly have a very
12 difficult job, I cannot imagine how the interpreters can
13 be listening to English coming out of my mouth and
14 having Serbo-Croatian or French coming out of their
15 mouths a few seconds later. They are thinking in two
16 languages at once. I think they should be encouraged
17 that if one of us, and I am sure I am one of the worst
18 offenders, I will be the first one to admit it, is
19 speaking a little fast or if the court reporters think
20 we are speaking fast or speaking like we have a mouthful
21 of something or other that they have to be encouraged to
22 tell us to slow down, "Say it again", "I did not hear
23 that", because going back and correcting the
24 transcript -- I do not expect the judges to go through
25 what, 6,000 pages of transcript now; I do not expect you
1 to go through 7,000 to 10,000 pages of transcript trying
2 to compare what you heard and what you have taken down
3 in your notes to what the transcript says. That is
4 asking more from judges than the law will allow.
5 All three of the members of the Trial Chamber are
6 going to rely to a great extent in reaching judgment,
7 not just on the words on a cold piece of paper. If we
8 are going to do that, we do not need judges sitting in
9 this courtroom, we could just send the transcript back
10 into chambers every day. It is the demeanour of the
11 witnesses; those kinds of things go into your
12 credibility judging function. Again just changing the
13 transcript, although that may be great for the Appellate
14 Chamber, does not help the Trial Chamber fulfil its
15 function as a fact finder. Again I think that the thing
16 that needs -- the interpreters and the court reporters
17 and all of the staff and frankly the Trial Chamber -- if
18 I am speaking a little fast and one of the judges does
19 not understand what I am saying, for crying out loud,
20 tell me to slow down, tell me to repeat it. That should
21 go for all of us your Honour.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, the complaint we have
23 received this morning mainly is one of accuracy in the
24 translations -- what I would call interpretations,
25 I would call it accuracy, and what appears on the
1 screen. Now, often times here I have remembered counsel
2 has pointed out to some inaccuracies on the screen and
3 we have referred it to the translation booth and it has
4 been corrected as we go. I suppose we can indulge in
5 that a little more, instead of going through the whole
6 thing and returning at a later date. Anybody who is
7 able to pinpoint any errors of interpretation should be
8 able to point it out at that stage so we do not lose
9 sight of such things. I think we all have a
10 responsibility for the accuracy of the record and
11 I think we should take advantage of the opportunities
12 that we have in achieving that accuracy. Thank you very
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I fully endorse what you have
15 said and I do indeed think that none of us have an easy
16 task and that applies to the interpreters as well, and
17 I would like to ask the court to caution me in the
18 interest of accuracy to slow down, so that what I say is
19 entered into the transcript accurately. But I would
20 like to draw attention to one further problem that
21 colleague Niemann has referred to, namely the transcript
22 that we have in front of us, which can help us to react
23 immediately to an error made, is not so perfect, because
24 if a witness is speaking Bosnian Serbian or Croatian, my
25 colleague sitting next to me who sees the English text,
1 he does not know whether that is a correct translation
2 or not, and myself, who speaks French, I am not able to
3 note whether what has been said in Bosnian has been
4 correctly interpreted into English, so the errors that
5 we notice are mostly names and for instance the word
6 sentence spoken by Mr. Panzer, the translation into
7 Bosnian was sentence in the sense of a set of words
8 rather than sentence in the sense of a verdict.
9 I have also observed that the court reporters have
10 a very difficult task, they have certain names that are
11 already precoded and as I have said, as soon as the word
12 Delalic is uttered, Zejnil appears, sometimes we do not
13 notice it, but when we do and when we compare the
14 transcript with the translation service, could we please
15 have that correction within 48 hours, because otherwise
16 we will have a backlog after 5,000 pages no one will be
17 able to recall the objection we made regarding witness
18 Antic and that correction has still not been made in the
19 transcript to this day.
20 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, may I also refer to what my
21 learned friend colleague Mr. Niemann has said regarding
22 our ability to check the transcript. That is true, but
23 it is also true what my colleague Ackerman has said with
24 respect to the monitor. What happens in practice is the
25 following: what is important is what the witness hears
1 himself, he does not have a transcript, so if a name is
2 incorrectly spoken to him through the interpreters he
3 may give an incorrect answer, and how can we verify
4 this? Only subsequently when we get the transcript.
5 Therefore your Honours are quite right in saying that
6 this process must be speeded up so that we receive the
7 transcript as soon as possible to have the opportunity
8 to react to it on time. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think this is
10 all we might be able to say here. You might perhaps as
11 a backup to assist us also to put it in writing for the
12 Registry, because that might make things clearer for
13 everyone; not that they will not know what we have said
14 here, but it will clearly indicate the urgency of it
16 Can we have the witness? Invite the witness,
18 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, while the witness is on his way
19 I just want to thank you for your indulgence, listening
20 to us pour our hearts out to you this morning.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a very important aspect of the
22 trial as a whole. Unless we get accurately what has
23 been said on both sides, the decision will also not be
25 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is important.
2 MR. MORAN: And the whole reason we are all here is to get --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The truth and justice of it all.
4 (Witness entered court)
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind him he is still on his oath.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The witness is reminded that he is still
7 under oath.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has not heard it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: The witness is reminded that he is still
10 under oath.
11 A. Yes.
12 WITNESS T (continued).
13 MR. MORAN: May it please the court?
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
15 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN (continued)
16 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good morning, sir?
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. Sir, while you were sitting out in the witness room in
19 the last few minutes, I will be up front with you,
20 I will tell you what was going on in the courtroom, we
21 think there may have been some problems yesterday when I
22 was talking to you in interpretation from my English to
23 your Serbo-Croatian and then back again to English when
24 you had answered, so I may ask you a couple of questions
25 that are going to be similar to what I asked you
1 yesterday and the only reason is just to clear up what
2 some of my colleagues who speak Bosnian think may have
3 been where you and I did not communicate. Is that fair
5 A. Yes, I agree.
6 Q. Okay, good. One of the things that was pointed out to
7 me was that yesterday I asked you about food
8 availability in Konjic amongst civilians, and I am told
9 that your answer in Bosnian or Croatian was that there
10 was a shortage of food and as I recall, the English
11 translation was that food was fairly available. Which
12 is it, sir?
13 A. I said that there was food in sufficient quantities and
14 that the population was not short of food like in some
15 other places in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 Q. That is fair. I just wanted to make sure we were clear
17 on that, sir.
18 Going on to another subject, Grozdana Cecez.
19 Regardless of what she said you did, set that aside for
20 a second, what was your relation with her otherwise in
21 the camp? Did you see her often, did you talk to her
22 often, did you perhaps have coffee with her or share
23 cigarettes with her, that kind of thing?
24 A. The relationship was quite good and our relationship was
25 the same as with anyone else, especially an elderly
1 woman, a woman whose age was the same as my mother's,
2 I respected her. Very often I gave her a cigarette.
3 Q. So --
4 A. It was a good relationship.
5 Q. So in March or April 1997, there would be no way that
6 she could mistake someone else for you or you for
7 someone else if she was using your name, would there?
8 MS. McHENRY: I would object to that. This witness is
9 unable to say what another witness does. I think he has
10 brought out the facts but I think it is impossible for
11 him to say. An improper question to ask: could she or
12 could she not be mistaken about something like that.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think so. It is a question he
14 can answer. If somebody should not mistake you because
15 of your relationship to them; you have met her
16 frequently, you have known her, you meet often, she
17 ought not to mistake you for someone. This is what he
18 wants to find out. That is an opinion anybody can
20 MR. MORAN: Mr. T, you can answer the question.
21 A. There was probably a mistake, because it was maybe one
22 of the other guards who used my name when he was doing
24 Q. Mr. T, she knew your true name when you were in camp, did
25 she not?
1 A. Yes, I said maybe somebody else, another guard used my
2 name to deceive, to cover up the trace.
3 Q. So she might have thought there were two guards in the
4 camp with your name, is that what you are saying, sir?
5 A. No, I did not say that there were two guards. I said
6 one of the guards used my name to deceive her so that
7 she did not know who did it.
8 Q. So she would have thought there were two people with
9 your name; someone would have made her think there were
10 two people in the camp with your name?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think so, it does not imply
12 that. If somebody uses somebody's name, it does not
13 mean there are two people of the same name.
14 MR. MORAN: No, your Honour, I was suggesting that she might
15 have -- he is suggesting she might have thought that
16 there were two people with his name.
17 Sir, let me go on to something else. In the
18 early -- the beginning of the camp, when you were first
19 assigned there as part of the HVO military police, back
20 in May 1992, did not your duties include taking the list
21 of names of prisoners being brought into the camp and
22 taking down information about whether they had weapons
23 or things like that?
24 A. I am sorry, I did not understand this question.
25 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you very much, if you do not understand
1 the question, for stopping me. I will rephrase it and
2 we will work at it until you understand it. Back when
3 the camp -- when you were initially assigned to Celebici
4 in probably May 1992, that is the time I am looking at,
5 did not your duties include things like writing down the
6 names of the prisoners who were being brought to the
7 camp and keeping track of who was in the camp, before
8 you became the driver?
9 A. No, that was not my duty.
10 Q. So your only duty was to take people to interrogations?
11 A. Yes, and later when the interrogation would be over,
12 I was on duty by the telephone.
13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, in the interests of caution I think
14 we may have to go into private session for just a few
15 seconds, for one question.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will go into private session.
17 (In closed session)
5 (In open session)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can continue.
7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour. Sir, is it not
8 true that with that woman Mira that she was in the camp
9 for several days and that during that period of time you
10 forced her to be a prostitute in the camp; is that not
12 A. No, as I said yesterday on one occasion I drove her to
13 the camp because her brother was imprisoned there and
14 later I went to sleep and one of the guards took her to
15 the place where her brother was imprisoned, I do not
16 remember exactly which hangar or tunnel it was and what
17 happened later to her, and the next morning at the gate
18 there was screaming and I could see Hazim hitting her
19 with the bat and trying to drive her away.
20 Q. So that is -- do you know a man named Skivo? You know
21 him, do you not? He is the guy who had all the sheep on
22 the barracks.
23 A. That man's name was Smail, not Skivo.
24 Q. It was Smail Kovacevic, was it not?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. But his nickname was Skivo?
2 A. No, his nickname was not Skivo. His nickname was
4 Q. How was it that you came to finally leave the barracks
5 at Celebici?
6 A. I simply left because since there were already some
7 conflicts happening between the Muslim and the Croat
8 forces and I did not feel safe any longer, and I just
10 Q. Sir, that would not be that you were ordered out of the
11 camp after the incident with Mira because the camp
12 authorities thought that you were engaging in improper
13 conduct; that would not be it, would it?
14 A. No, that was not the reason.
15 Q. In fact, back in about August or September 1992 Mr. Delic
16 did not come to you and demand your keys to the van and
17 tell you to get off the post and never come back, did
19 A. No, because he could not have ordered that because he
20 was not the prison commander. That could have been
21 ordered only by Zdravko Mucic whether I should leave or
23 Q. Okay. So you were not ordered off of the installation
24 and told never to come back because of your activities
25 involving Mira; that is what you are saying, right?
1 A. No, that is not true.
2 Q. That is not what you are saying or that is not true,
3 which is it? You are not saying ...
4 A. I said it was not true, I did not do anything with Mira
5 and that was no reason for anybody to order me to leave
6 the prison.
7 Q. Okay. By the way, did you ever steal any binoculars
8 that were property of the Bosnian army and sell them to
9 the shepherd Mr. Kovacevic?
10 A. I do not remember.
11 Q. You do not remember whether you stole property of the
12 army and sold it to someone else?
13 A. No, I cannot remember doing that.
14 Q. That is fine, sir, okay. Sir, early on when you were
15 first assigned to the camp, what was the name of the
17 A. I do not know exactly what his name was, but he was
18 appointed by the forces of the Ministry of the Internal.
19 Q. Ministry of Internal Affairs, MUP?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Sir, do you recall an incident -- do you remember taking
22 a man, one of the prisoners, into the room where you and
23 the other guards slept? The man was an ex-policeman in
24 Konjic and I understand your father had some problems
25 with him.
1 A. My father had never had problems with police in his life
2 was he was a very quiet man. That is just not true.
3 Q. Okay. Sir, is it true that you brought a man named
4 Georgi Sipovac into the room where you and the other
5 guards slept and gave that man some hand cream and had
6 him put it on your legs and on your sexual organs and
7 then perform a sex act? Is it not further true that
8 while you were doing that you were laughing and when he
9 was finished you had him sing a song, the words
10 including "below the green mountain"?
11 A. No, sir, I am not a sick man to be able to do something
12 like that.
13 Q. Sir, is it not also true that after that incident you
14 went out into a corridor with your automatic rifle,
15 removed the firing pin so that it would not fire, then
16 walked back into the barracks area, chambered a round,
17 handed the weapon to this man and told him to commit
18 suicide with it, and then watched while he pulled the
19 trigger and heard the hammer fall and click?
20 A. No, that is not true.
21 Q. It never happened?
22 A. No, not to me. I do not know about others.
23 Q. Sir, have you ever been convicted of a felony?
24 A. No, I have not.
25 Q. You have never been convicted of a crime?
1 A. No, I have not.
2 Q. Sir, yesterday you testified that after you took all of
3 this property from these prisoners when you and the
4 others passed the helmet and were forced to give it
5 back, everything except some insignificant things were
6 given back and I think you said some watches and gold
7 rings. Do you recall saying that, sir? Do you recall
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Were those gold rings like the one on my hand? Can you
11 see that sir? If not, I will take it off and have it
12 shown to you. Wedding rings, are those the kind of
13 rings you are talking about?
14 A. No, I said those were mainly old watches, things of very
15 little value, things of no great value, no considerable
17 Q. Did I not recall you saying also that some gold rings
18 were sold and not returned?
19 A. Yes, I did, that some things were sold, but a very small
20 amount. What was sold again was used to buy cigarettes
21 and it was -- some of that was also given to the Serb
22 prisoners as well and I believe that many of them would
23 be able to confirm that.
24 Q. Again, if you would answer my question with the rings
25 that were sold and not returned; did they look like my
1 wedding ring?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought he had answered that. He did
3 not think it looked like a wedding ring.
4 MR. MORAN: Sir, do you have any possessions anywhere in the
5 world that have what we would call a sentimental value,
6 where the value to you is much more than the cash value
7 of the item? If you like, I will give you an example.
8 A. Yes, those are personal items such as rings, watches.
9 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, may I have just a second? (Pause).
10 Sir, yesterday you were testifying about the hygiene for
11 the people that were confined in the camp, the
12 prisoners, and I remember you said they had improvised
13 toilets; do you remember that?
14 A. Yes, I do remember.
15 Q. Thinking back to your own training in the JNA, would
16 those be similar to latrines that soldiers would dig
17 when they are out in the field, away from facilities?
18 A. Something like that, yes.
19 Q. When you were in the JNA you were stationed in a fairly
20 large installation, were you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It was a place that was designed to keep lots of --
23 where lots of people were to be stationed and to live
24 and to work, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And because there were a lot of people that were going
2 to live there, when the installation was designed it
3 included a lot of facilities for cooking and for
4 sleeping and for showers and toilet facilities and
5 recreation facilities, and all those kinds of things
6 that a large number of people need to live on, right?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. The Celebici barracks were not designed to have hundreds
9 of people live there, were they?
10 A. Yes, that is right.
11 Q. In fact, it was designed mainly as a place to keep
12 supplies and store houses and warehouses and things like
13 that, right?
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. It was designed only to have a few soldiers live and
16 work on the post, relatively few.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. About 30 or 40?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And there were showers and kitchens and toilets and
21 recreation facilities for those 30 or 40 people, right?
22 A. Yes, that is right.
23 Q. But there were not sufficient facilities for 200 or 300
24 or 400 people, right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So the people that were in charge of the camp and the
2 people that were working in the camp, you and all the
3 other people in the camp had to improvise; is that not
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So, for instance, there would be no way to have
7 sufficient flush toilets for all of the prisoners?
8 A. No, there were not.
9 Q. Or showers?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And there were not beds available for everyone, were
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. There just were not any?
15 A. No, there were not.
16 Q. By the way -- your Honour at this point we will pass the
17 witness and I will thank the court for its indulgence
18 for letting me go over a little bit of what I went over
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, yesterday when the order was
23 announced, it was announced that Ms. Residovic would go
24 second and I would go last. With the court's
25 permission, Ms. Residovic and I would like to change
1 places so I go second and Ms. Residovic goes last.
2 With the court's permission, that is the way we would
3 like to do it.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is your decision.
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. May I proceed, your
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
8 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. T.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. My name is John Ackerman and I will have a few questions
12 that I would like to ask you. If you do not understand
13 the question that I ask, could you please let me know
14 that you do not fully understand it and ask me to
15 rephrase it or repeat it in a way that you are certain
16 you understand what it is I am asking you before you
17 give me an answer.
18 There was a time, was there not, in the earlier
19 part of this year in the country where you are now
20 living, that you gave at least two statements regarding
21 experiences that you had at Celebici camp.
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. One of those statements was to the Federal Police in
24 that country?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. One of those statements was made in the presence of a
2 member of the Office of the Prosecutor from this
3 Tribunal, correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Did you make any other statements to anyone at any time
6 prior to your arrival here in The Hague regarding your
7 experiences in Celebici?
8 A. Yes, I made a statement on Monday and Tuesday -- on
9 Sunday and Monday.
10 Q. That being here in The Hague?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But prior to your arrival here, did you make any
13 statements beyond the two that I have brought to your
14 attention this morning?
15 A. No, I did not. No, I did not make any statements.
16 Q. Since arriving here at The Hague, and now I want to
17 specifically refer to the two statements that were made
18 in the country where you now live, since arriving here
19 at The Hague, have you had an opportunity to review
20 those statements?
21 A. No, I have not.
22 Q. So at no time while you have been here in The Hague have
23 you seen and been shown the two statements you made to
24 the Federal Police and the representative of the OTP in
25 your home country?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Mr. T, the questions that I am going to ask you over the
3 next several moments are questions that require your
4 familiarity with these two statements, and so I think it
5 is important, before I proceed further, that you do have
6 an opportunity to look at them and to read them and to
7 have some knowledge about what it was that you said on
8 those two occasions, to have some significant knowledge
9 about it, so then the question that I must ask you is;
10 if they were given to you in the English language would
11 you be able to read and understand them?
12 A. No, I would not.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I wonder if the Office of the
14 Prosecutor has translations of these two statements in
16 MS. McHENRY: No, it does not.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I then must request -- wait a
18 minute, I think maybe we do have them here. Your
19 Honour, I do have two translations in Serbo-Croatian.
20 I know it is 20 minutes early, but I would ask the
21 indulgence of the court at this point to rise and after
22 I present these -- after I present these to the witness
23 and for the witness to have an opportunity to go through
24 them in detail before I continue my questioning, because
25 it is very important in terms of the questioning I want
1 to ask that he has reviewed the entire content of these
2 two transcripts and be familiar with all of the things
3 that he said in those two statements (redacetd)
4 (redacted) I think it just makes more sense that he do
5 this while we are not sitting in here waiting for him to
6 complete it, that he have some time outside the presence
7 of the Chamber to go through them in detail. That would
8 be my request. Perhaps we could take the morning break
9 now instead of 11.30 and accomplish it that way.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think it will
11 be convenient. We will break now and assemble at
12 11.45. I had heard there was a mistaken mention of the
13 home country. I did not hear it, but it is here on the
15 MR. ACKERMAN: I do not think I said it, your Honour. If
16 I did, I certainly apologise.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not hear that, but it is on the
19 JUDGE JAN: This is exactly the complaint was, the
20 translation that is coming on that is not what he said.
21 I do not think he said the name of his present home
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if I might ask the assistance of
24 the usher in presenting him with these statements before
25 we rise, and Mr. T, understand that what we are asking
1 you to do is during this break, very carefully read
2 through these so that when you come back you will be
3 familiar with everything that was said in these
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can be allowed counsel to present
6 his case.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Thank you very much, your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any confusion?
9 MS. McHENRY: Certainly at some time the Prosecution will
10 ask that they be marked, but Prosecution does not care
11 if that be done before or after the break.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I agree. They need to be marked at some
13 point, your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When we reassemble, I think it will be
15 the first thing to do to mark them.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I missed the time you said we would
18 JUDGE JAN: 11.45.
19 (11.15 am)
20 (A short break)
21 (11.45 am)
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. I need the Trial
24 Chamber to understand that it is somewhat painful for me
25 to raise another problem, because we have had plenty.
1 Yet I am compelled to do so. It is my understanding
2 that for some reason, the things that we all say to each
3 other along this bench privately somehow make their way
4 into the sound system and can at least be heard very
5 clearly by the members of the audience. We do not
6 notice in our own earphones, I do not know if the court
7 can hear it in their earphones or if the Prosecution can
8 hear it, but in the audience, I am told every time we
9 have a private conversation here it comes over the
10 earphones out in the audience, like the other day when
11 Ms. Residovic and Mr. O'Sullivan asked leave to have a
12 little conference here about some questioning, everyone
13 out there heard their whole conversation. If they
14 understood French, they knew everything they said.
15 I understand just a moment ago when I had a little
16 conversation with Ms McMurrey that it was heard clearly
17 in the audience. I do not know what the solution to
18 that is, whether it is to work on the sound system a
19 bit, or for us to be very careful about what we say.
20 I just need to bring that to the court's attention,
21 because it is a serious problem.
22 JUDGE JAN: Keep your microphone off while you are talking.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Apparently that is what we are going to have
24 to do.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think that might be the real
2 JUDGE JAN: I never hear what you say to your co-counsel.
3 Maybe there is some special microphone.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We need to examine the wiring system to
5 see whether there is a communication between that side
6 and those outside. We will look into it.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Maybe it can be solved and we will have to be
8 very careful about --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The two, a combination of it.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I am ready to proceed, with your Honour's
12 Mr. T, during the break, you were asked to
13 carefully review the two statements that we were talking
14 about. Have you had an opportunity to do that?
15 THE INTERPRETER: We did not hear the witness, I am sorry.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: During the break I asked you to carefully
17 review the two statements you had made in your home
18 country. My question now is: have you had an
19 opportunity to carefully review both of them?
20 A. I did not have enough time.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, that is a matter which has to
22 be -- I cannot proceed with questioning until the
23 witness has had time to review very carefully these two
24 statements. It is very important. I represent to you
25 as an officer of this court that it is very important
1 that that be done before I ask any further questions.
2 I do not know how your Honour wants to solve that.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did he really understand the question?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me make certain that you understood my
5 question. My question was: did you have sufficient time
6 during this break to carefully review both of those
8 A. I said I did not have enough time, and I do not really
9 need to look at this.
10 Q. When you say you do not really need to look at it, are
11 you telling me you are completely familiar with
12 everything that is contained in those two statements?
13 A. Not completely, I cannot recall having said some of the
14 things that I read here, or maybe the translation is not
15 a good one.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honours, I continue to take the position
17 that it is very important to where I am going next that
18 he have an opportunity to completely review them.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But he is not saying he could not take
20 questions concerning those things. He is not saying
22 MR. ACKERMAN: You have told us, Mr. T, yesterday that you
23 have -- I think you characterised it as a very poor
24 memory; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In the time that you had during the break to look at
2 those two statements, you have also told us that you
3 noticed things there that you did not remember saying in
4 those two statements, correct?
5 A. I said also that maybe the translation is not good. It
6 is not the same as the tapes I listened to which
7 I received in the country where I am living. I cannot
8 exactly remember all that is stated here.
9 Q. When did you last have an opportunity to listen to those
11 A. This was just once.
12 Q. How long ago?
13 A. A month ago, almost immediately after the interview,
14 maybe a month after the interview.
15 Q. Let me ask you this question, then, and preface it with
16 this. Yesterday, in questioning by Ms. McHenry you
17 indicated to this Trial Chamber that you had been
18 untruthful in your statements in your home country with
19 regard to whether or not there had been videotaping at
20 Celebici. You told us yesterday that you had not told
21 the truth about that matter, correct?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. I wonder if, with the opportunity you have had now to
24 look at these statements, you could tell us the other
25 places in those statements where you were also
1 untruthful, or do you need more time to review them to
2 tell us the other places where you were also untruthful?
3 A. I said that I was untruthful with regard to one point
4 only and that is the video cassettes.
5 Q. So in the balance of the questioning that I have of you
6 this morning, can I rely on those statements that you
7 made in your home country as being truthful statements,
8 other than the videotaping part of them?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You can say that without having an opportunity to
11 completely review them; you are satisfied that
12 everything else that you said during the taking of those
13 statements was the truth.
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. All right. You told me a moment ago, before we broke,
16 when I was asking about other statements you made, that
17 you had made a statement here in The Hague on Sunday and
18 Monday, correct?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. Was that a statement that was reduced to writing like
21 the ones that are sitting in front of you?
22 A. I do not know.
23 Q. Do you know whether or not there was any kind of
24 recording device used to record the statements you were
25 making here on Sunday and Monday?
1 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, he corrected himself. Monday and
2 Tuesday. Not Sunday and Monday, Monday and Tuesday. He
3 corrected himself.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: I thought it was the other way round, your
5 Honour, that he had initially said Monday and Tuesday
6 and then corrected it to Sunday and Monday.
7 JUDGE JAN: Sunday and Monday to Monday and Tuesday.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. T, which days was it those statements were
9 made? Was it Sunday and Monday or Monday and Tuesday?
10 A. It was Sunday and Monday.
11 Q. My question is: was there any kind of a recording device
12 used while you made those statements, a tape recorder, a
13 video recorder, anything like that?
14 A. As far as I saw, there were not any devices. Whether
15 there were any hidden cameras or hidden recording
16 devices, I do not know.
17 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution will represent there were no
18 hidden recording devices.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Will the Prosecution also represent that there
20 was no record of any kind made in the nature of a
21 statement that should be furnished to us.
22 MS. McHENRY: That is exactly correct.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, I accept that.
24 Mr. T, I want to ask you some questions about the
25 time when you first arrived at the camp at Celebici,
1 just to let you know what it is I am going to be asking
2 you about, okay?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Yesterday, you told us all here in this Trial Chamber
5 that you believed that you were in the camp from
6 approximately May through approximately November, that
7 that was basically correct; is that what you told us
9 A. Yes, in that period.
10 Q. That would be a period of roughly seven months, would it
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The other thing you told us yesterday was that you
14 volunteered for the military, that you went into the
15 military at the time the war started in the Konjic area;
16 that is also a correct statement, is it not?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. If it has been established in this case that the war
19 started in the Konjic area in April, then it would have
20 been in April that you first went in to the military.
21 A. I cannot remember exactly when the war started, but
22 I did join at the very beginning of the war. What date
23 it was, I cannot remember.
24 Q. If that was in April, then that would have been when you
25 joined the military?
1 A. Yes, if it was April, yes.
2 Q. In your statement to the OTP investigator in your home
3 country, and I am referring to a BATES stamp page number
4 of 4657, what you told the OTP investigator about that
5 issue was that you had first reported to the military
6 police of the Croatian Defence counsel and that you were
7 there for three months, and after that you went to the
8 army barracks in Celebici. That is what it reflects
9 that you told the interviewer from the Office of the
10 Prosecutor. Did you see that in the statement when you
11 were reviewing it?
12 A. Yes, I noticed that I made a small mistake, but I do not
13 think that it is a significant mistake. First I went to
14 the Territorial Defence and then I went to the HVO
16 Q. So you now want to take the position, I take it, that
17 what you told us here yesterday, that first you went to
18 the Territorial Defence, is the truth of the matter,
19 rather than what you told the OTP investigator a few
20 months ago in your home country?
21 A. As I said, I had made a mistake and I said that I went
22 to HVO police first, but actually I was in the
23 Territorial Defence first and I really see no reason why
24 I should be lying about that. I just said without any
25 reason to lie, I just forgot.
1 Q. Nor do I, and a moment ago you will recall that I asked
2 you, other than the videotaping, was there anything
3 contained in your statements that you were untruthful
4 about and you told me there was nothing else contained
5 in those statements that you were untruthful about.
6 MS. McHENRY: Objection, your Honour. Forgetting something
7 or making a mistake does not constitute being
8 untruthful. I object to that question.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has already answered the question
10 before your comment on its being truthful or not. He
11 said he made a mistake.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so, your Honour.
13 The rest of that statement, leaving aside the
14 issue of whether you went into the TO first, that you
15 served in the military for about three months before you
16 went to Celebici, that part of your statement then would
17 be true.
18 A. I cannot remember exactly for how long I was there.
19 I said roughly three months, was it three or two or one,
20 I do not know. I really see no reason why I should be
21 lying and why that is important.
22 Q. The statement says:
23 "At first I reported to military police of the
24 Croatian Defence counsel and I was there for three
25 months and after that, I went to the army barracks in
2 It does not say "approximately" or "roughly", it
3 says "I was there for three months". Was that a correct
4 statement you made to the Office of the Prosecutor
5 investigator on that date or not?
6 MS. McHENRY: Objection, asked and answered.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, his answer was that he had said
8 roughly and I am pointing out that he did not say
9 roughly, that he was precise in that statement.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he can answer that.
11 A. I could not remember when the question was asked when
12 I was interviewed in my country of residence, I could
13 not remember within five seconds exactly when I was
14 there, for how long was I in the Territorial Defence,
15 when I went to HVO. I simply could not remember certain
16 dates that happened five or six years ago.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: You understand, do you not, that I am not
18 asking you about seconds, I am asking you about months?
19 A. The time I had to answer the question in my country of
20 residence was a few seconds. I did not have too much
21 time to think, to remember when I was there, when I left
23 Q. Before you talked to the representative of the Office of
24 the Prosecutor, on March 24th 1997, you had given a
25 statement about this matter to a representative of the
1 Federal Police, had you not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then after that statement, you were then asked to give
4 an additional statement, and that was on April
5 28th 1997, correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. That statement went on for a significant period of time,
8 over three hours, that you were being questioned by
9 representatives of the office of the Prosecutor,
11 A. Yes, that is correct. Maybe it was three hours, but
12 there were 100 questions.
13 Q. When you said at that time that you were in the military
14 three months before going to Celebici camp, that was
15 certainly your best recollection at that time, was it
17 A. Something like that, yes.
18 Q. You were asked about it even a second time during that
19 interview, after you had had an opportunity to reflect
20 on your answer, you were asked again about how much time
21 you were a military police officer before you went to
22 Celebici, and your answer was:
23 "I could not say exactly, two or three months."
24 So twice on that occasion you used the figure
25 three months, did you not?
1 A. I see no reason why this is so important exactly when
2 I left, and for how long I stayed in an army.
3 Q. Please understand that I am not asking you to determine
4 whether or not my questions are important. That would
5 be up to the Trial Chamber. I am asking you questions
6 that I deserve to have answered. You said it on two
7 occasions at that time, did you not, that it was three
8 months and then another time two or three months?
9 MS. McHENRY: If I just may correct the record, he said
10 approximately two or three months and he estimated he
11 started some time in February or March and said I cannot
12 be sure. I would object to any further questioning on
13 this line as both asked and answered and irrelevant.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would ask that Ms McHenry point
15 out to me where in these statements he used the words
16 "approximately two or three months". It is not in
17 either place I have referred to.
18 MS. McHENRY: On page 6, the question was:
19 "I think you said three months?
20 Answer: I could not say exactly, two or three
22 Question: Well approximately.
23 Answer: Yes."
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, that is correct, that is
25 what it says.
1 So the answer is approximately two or three
2 months, is that a fair statement?
3 A. As I said, I did say three months. I cannot remember
4 exactly now, maybe I could make a mistake again in a
5 month. I cannot remember exactly.
6 Q. If you went into the military in April and you were
7 there three months before you went to Celebici, then it
8 could have been as late as July before you actually took
9 up your duties at Celebici. That could have been the
10 case, correct?
11 A. I think it was before July, before July.
12 Q. If I may see if I can help you a bit more in trying to
13 help you pin down this date and help refresh your memory
14 about that; may I do that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In that same interview with the office of the
17 Prosecutor, you were asked about medical care at
18 Celebici; do you remember being asked about that?
19 A. Yes, correct.
20 Q. During our last break did you have an opportunity to
21 review that portion of the statements you made to the
22 OTP at that time?
23 A. Yes, I saw it, but I was not paying all that much
25 Q. I want to take you back again to one of my initial
1 questions, and give you an opportunity to answer it
2 differently if you would like to. That is: is there
3 anything in these two statements that you noticed as you
4 were going through them or that you heard when you were
5 listening to the recordings that is untrue besides the
6 issue with regard to videotaping, because if there is
7 I need you to point that out to me now.
8 A. No, there is not.
9 Q. All right. It is true, is it not, that at the time of
10 that interview with the OTP, you were asked if there
11 were any medical staff available at Celebici. You
12 answered that doctors would come from the city to check
13 up on the prisoners. You were then asked:
14 "So there was no medical staff actually in the
15 prison, but medical staff from outside that would come
16 and check?
17 Answer: Yes."
18 Those are true statements, correct?
19 A. Two Serb doctors who were imprisoned for a while, they
20 were performing examinations of prisoners, but later,
21 after they had been released, I went to pick them up,
22 I cannot remember how many times a week, and I brought
23 them there. They would spend the day in the camp and
24 later I would take them back home. Mainly that was it
25 for medical staff.
1 Q. What you told the investigator from the Office of the
2 Prosecutor was that there was no medical staff actually
3 in the prison, but there were medical staff from outside
4 that would come and check; that was what you said, is
5 that not true?
6 A. Maybe I forgot to say that they were there, they worked
7 there while they had been imprisoned, that they were
8 performing their medical duties. I simply forgot to say
10 Q. So is that then another thing in your statements to the
11 OTP that was not accurate?
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think it would be easier if
13 you note those inaccuracies, put them to him, instead of
14 asking him to remember what he read some time ago, which
15 he has still not read properly now.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour. If your statements to
17 the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor were
18 correct and it was your position that there were no
19 medical staff in Celebici and if it has been established
20 in this case that the two Serb doctors you were talking
21 about were released on July 22nd, then the three months
22 that you have talked about of being in the military
23 before you went to Celebici would put you there in July
24 and after July 22nd when the two doctors had left, when
25 they were coming from town and not resident there. That
1 is a fair statement, is it not?
2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I object to this. First of all,
3 this witness has already indicated that he was there
4 before July and when counsel refers to him saying three
5 months, he said approximately two or three months. He
6 thought he started in February or more, which would have
7 put him in the camp in May or June and in addition
8 whether or not two Serb doctors imprisoned in the camp
9 would constitute medical staff is certainly arguable and
10 I object to any additional questions on this line of
11 questioning as irrelevant, time consuming and asked and
12 answered, and I would also note that I support the
13 presiding judge's comments on the proper way to try to
14 impeach this witness.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Ms McHenry is now offering
16 testimony to the Trial Chamber, which I think is
17 interesting. I would prefer to get it from the witness,
18 if I may.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put that to him.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I will, thank you.
21 If what you are telling us today is correct, then
22 I guess the position you are taking is that you were in
23 the Celebici camp for a seven or eight months period
24 from April or May, or somewhere in that neighbourhood,
25 all the way through until October or November?
1 A. Something like that. Perhaps I arrived in April, maybe
2 in March; I cannot remember exactly.
3 Q. We know, do we not, for certain, one thing we can be
4 certain about is that you were working at Celebici camp
5 on September 3rd 1982 because you have told us that you
6 were at that party that we saw on the video here
8 A. Yes, I was there on 3rd September.
9 Q. So the 3rd September 1992, if I mis-spoke myself, we can
10 be certain you were there on that date, correct, because
11 of the videotape and your representation that you were
12 there at that time?
13 A. If the date on the videotape is that, 3rd September, yes
14 I was there.
15 Q. In addition you told the representatives of the Federal
16 Police from your home country, in answer to a question,
17 "how long did you perform duties at the camp?", your
18 answer was "three or four months".
19 A. Again I made a mistake, due to my lack of memory. It
20 was not deliberate.
21 Q. Yes. During that statement, I think we have now
22 discovered that in your statements to the Federal Police
23 and in your statements to the Office of the Prosecutor,
24 you made several mistakes due to your lack of memory; is
25 that a fair statement of what you are telling us now?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You, of course, still suffer from that memory problem
3 that you have described to us as you sit here and
4 testify before this Tribunal today.
5 A. Yes, problem remembering dates and times, exactly when
6 things happened.
7 Q. Yes, and so we must take the things you are telling us
8 here with the understanding that you may be making
9 several mistakes with regard to what you are telling us
10 here, because of your lack of memory.
11 A. As I said, in cases of dates and times when I was there.
12 Q. You certainly will agree with me that there is a vast
13 difference between telling us here that you were there
14 seven months and telling the Federal Police that you
15 were there three or four months. There is a difference
16 between those, is there not?
17 JUDGE JAN: What is the objection?
18 MS. McHENRY: The objection is both asked and answered. He
19 did not say he was there seven months. He said it could
20 have been seven months, something like that, he is not
21 sure of dates and times, so I object on both grounds.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me a moment, your Honour, I am looking
23 for something. I know it is here. (Pause).
24 Your Honours, in yesterday's transcript, during the
25 direct examination on page 7, lines 17 through 24, that
1 is the LiveNote version of the transcript, the question
2 by Ms McHenry was:
3 "Just for an overview, how long in all did you
4 remain working in Celebici?
5 Answer: I remained about six or seven months,
6 maybe a little longer."
7 So that was the testimony from yesterday that I am
8 talking about today. He said seven or eight months,
9 maybe a little longer.
10 You will agree, Mr. Witness, will you not, that
11 there is a significant difference between seven or eight
12 months and three or four months?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If in fact you were only there for, let us say, three
15 months, and we know that you were there on September
16 3rd, then you may have been there from September
17 3rd until December 3rd or from June 3rd until September
18 3rd or somewhere within three months of that date of
19 September 3rd, if your statement of three months is
21 A. I was between the February or March until October,
22 something like that.
23 Q. I want to go back and ask you some more about these two
24 statements that you gave in your home country. Both of
25 those statements, of course, concerned the things that
1 you observed and were aware of regarding your
2 experiences in Celebici; is that correct?
3 A. I do not know what you mean.
4 Q. The things that the investigators who interviewed you
5 were interested in were your experiences at the time you
6 were in Celebici camp. Those were the things they were
7 asking you about, that is what they were interested in,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. They were interested in the things you knew about that
11 went on in Celebici camp, the things you saw in Celebici
12 camp, correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. The names of persons who were in charge at various times
15 in Celebici camp, the names of guards who were stationed
16 in Celebici camp, yes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You had an interview with the Federal Police that lasted
19 about an hour, and then later an interview with the OTP
20 investigator that lasted in excess of three hours,
22 A. Something like that.
23 Q. During that roughly four hours of relating your
24 experiences at Celebici camp, you never once mentioned
25 the name Landzo or Zenga during either of those
1 interviews, did you?
2 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.
3 Q. Would you take my word for it in reading through these
4 statements that you never once in these statements
5 mentioned the name Landzo or the name Zenga, or do you
6 want me to give you an opportunity to read through all
7 of them again?
8 A. I believe.
9 Q. Okay. Then you did not give any more interviews
10 regarding this matter until you came here to The Hague,
11 when you were interviewed by Ms McHenry on Sunday and
12 Monday; is that correct?
13 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question quite
15 Q. You gave no other interviews after the two in your own
16 country until you came here to The Hague and you were
17 interviewed by Ms McHenry on Sunday and Monday; is that
19 A. No, I have not, nothing.
20 Q. Okay. So the next time you were asked about your
21 experiences at Celebici after the two interviews in your
22 home country was here in The Hague when you were
23 interviewed by Ms McHenry; is that a fair statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were first interviewed by her on Sunday?
1 A. Yes, correct.
2 Q. Who was with her during that interview?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise to my colleagues, but again the
4 translation here, the colleague said, and it says in the
5 transcript, as far as I can understand, that he had
6 spoken in The Hague for the first time, but in the
7 English text which we did not get as the translation,
8 there are also words "when you were interviewed by
9 Ms McHenry, is that right" so half the sentence was for
10 us with no translation. Thank you. Excuse me, but this
11 was without the translation for the witness as well.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are referring to the translation
13 which is not an accurate reflection of the English
14 version, yes? Is that what you are saying, that they
15 are not the same?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Exactly what I want to say. What was
17 translated was up to "the next interview, you gave it in
18 The Hague", that is what the witness heard as well as
19 the rest of us who speak Bosnian. My colleague said
20 another part of the sentence after the comma, which was
21 "when Ms McHenry interviewed you". That part was not
22 translated, nor did we hear it.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think that
24 should be included in the Bosnian version.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I will repeat the question so
1 there is no question about whether the witness
2 understood my question or not.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, in the next sentence.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Mr. T, the question that I asked you which
5 apparently was not completely translated; after the
6 interviews in your home country, the next time you gave
7 any statements about your experiences in Celebici were
8 on Sunday, last Sunday, here in The Hague?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. When you were interviewed by Ms McHenry.
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you got it right now?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I think my next question then was: who was
15 with Ms McHenry during that interview on Sunday?
16 A. There was an interpreter and two other men whose names
17 I cannot remember.
18 Q. Were the names of those two other men ever told to you
19 during the course of that interview?
20 A. Yes, but I forgot them.
21 Q. Were they introduced to you as lawyers from this
22 Tribunal, or as investigators from the Office of the
23 Prosecutor, or how were they introduced to you? What
24 was the role they claimed to be playing?
25 A. As investigators working for this court.
1 Q. Was either one of them Mr. Milner who you had met with
3 A. No, he only came during lunch. We did not talk about
4 anything. He was not carrying out the investigation in
5 The Hague.
6 Q. Did either of those investigators ask you any questions
7 or was it just Ms McHenry that was asking you questions?
8 A. The main examination was done by Ms McHenry, only a
9 question or two, insignificant questions, were put to me
10 by the other two gentlemen.
11 Q. On that Sunday meeting, how long did that meeting last?
12 What is your best estimate of the length of that
14 A. It was about -- from 10.00 in the morning until 4.00 or
15 5.00 in the afternoon.
16 Q. So that meeting lasted for six or seven hours.
17 A. Something like that, there were several breaks.
18 Q. Then you met again on Monday with Ms McHenry, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were the same two investigators with her at that time?
21 A. Yes, the same two, plus another one who was a technician
22 in charge of video recording, something like that.
23 Q. Was that the time then you reviewed some of the videos
24 that we saw here in court yesterday?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let me ask you again: did either one of the
2 investigators during that meeting on Monday ask you any
4 A. A couple, but not very important questions. It was
5 mostly Ms McHenry that was doing the questioning.
6 Q. Some time during the questioning -- I want to ask you
7 this: how long then was that meeting on Monday?
8 A. Roughly the same as on Sunday.
9 Q. So another six or seven hours?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So prior to appearing in this Chamber to testify, you
12 had spent somewhere between 12 and 14 hours with breaks
13 in the middle of it, with Ms McHenry and these two or
14 three investigators.
15 A. Something like that.
16 Q. At some time during the Sunday or Monday when you were
17 having these meetings, the name Landzo or Zenga must
18 have come up during those meetings, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you tell me who it was that first mentioned that
21 name during those meetings?
22 A. I was the first to mention the name.
23 Q. Did Ms McHenry or any of the investigators that were
24 present during those 12 to 14 hours of meetings use any
25 particular kinds of techniques to help you with your
1 memory problem, to help you remember things that you
2 were having trouble remembering?
3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to object to any
4 further line of questioning. I think Defence counsel
5 has been given wide latitude. This entire line of
6 questioning has been found irrelevant and in another
7 Trial Chamber recently, in the Blaskic case -- I have
8 not objected because I do not want it to seem like the
9 Prosecution has anything to hide, but I am going to
10 object to any further line of questioning, particularly
11 when it talks about technique, I do not know what
12 Defence counsel and I do not think the witness can be
13 expected to know what is technique. I will represent we
14 did not hypnotise him, if that is what Defence counsel
15 is asking.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: She has correctly anticipated my next
17 question, that is the next place I was going, because
18 hypnotic enhanced memory is a major controversy in some
19 jurisdictions around this world, and in most of those
20 jurisdictions, the courts have taken the position that a
21 witness may not testify if his memory has been
22 hypnotically enhanced. That was where I was going, that
23 was what I was trying to determine.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually after he had answered your
25 question, that he was not aided in remembering the names
1 of Landzo, I do not think there was any need to adopt
2 that line of questioning, because he did it unaided.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I accept Ms McHenry's
4 representation that no hypnotic enhancement was used and
5 I think that would end that enquiry.
6 Your Honour, I want to go into private session
7 just for perhaps one or two questions just to clarify a
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please let us go into private session.
10 (In closed session)
23 (In open session)
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to go back to an issue we have
25 discussed a little bit this morning, Mr. T, and that is
1 your statement to the OTP investigator in which you
2 denied the videotaping at Celebici and your testimony
3 yesterday that you were not truthful with the OTP
4 investigator about that. That is what I want to talk to
5 you about, okay?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You told us yesterday that you were untruthful about
8 that because you were afraid, I think those were your
9 words, correct?
10 A. Yes, that is it.
11 Q. In fact your exact words were:
12 "I guess because I was afraid of saying that I had
13 taped it."
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us what it was or what it was that you
16 are afraid of?
17 A. I was afraid to show the commander this tape. I thought
18 he might shout at me for having filmed it.
19 Q. I think perhaps you have misunderstood me. Maybe not.
20 My question is this: you told this Chamber yesterday
21 that you told the investigator a lie, basically, that
22 you were untruthful with the investigator because you
23 were afraid, afraid to tell the truth for some reason.
24 Why were you afraid to tell the truth to the
25 investigator of the OTP about videotaping, that is the
1 question I want to know.
2 A. The reason is that I was afraid to say that. I thought
3 that they would scream at me, that -- I do not know.
4 I simply did not say it.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are still misunderstanding
6 the question. Why did you not tell the OTP investigator
7 the truth? That is what he is saying.
8 A. I see. I was afraid because there were things on the
9 tape where you could see that the prisoners were being
10 mistreated, and I was afraid that if they were heard by
11 the public, that I had made those tapes, that some of my
12 relatives and family would have consequences, they would
13 suffer as part of any kind of revenge. Something like
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Would it be fair to suggest that you were
16 afraid that admitting that would expose -- would perhaps
17 expose you to some kind of accusations with regard to
18 your role at Celebici?
19 A. I was not afraid for myself, I was afraid, as I said,
20 for my family, my parents, if one day this was leaked to
21 the public, what was happening over there, down there.
22 Q. I take it then that that same kind of fear would affect
23 you with regard to other questions that might cause you
24 to have some concern that they might be exposed to your
25 family or to the public, correct?
1 A. I did not quite understand your question.
2 Q. The factor motivating whether or not you were willing to
3 be truthful with the OTP investigator was whether or not
4 you were afraid that what you said might be exposed in
5 some way and come to the attention of your family or
6 other persons and bring discredit on them or upon you.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Clearly, that same kind of motivation would make it
9 necessary for you to also be untruthful about more
10 serious issues like whether or not you had committed any
11 rapes or murders, would it not?
12 A. No, that would not influence me.
13 Q. So what you are telling us today is that you would be
14 willing to be untruthful with the investigators about
15 whether or not you did some videotaping at Celebici
16 camp, but you would be willing to, if in fact you had
17 been guilty of murders or rapes, you would have been
18 perfectly willing to admit that to the investigators
19 during that time?
20 A. I admitted the lie I told in connection with the
21 camera. I admitted that, and if I had lied about
22 anything else I would have admitted that too. As far as
23 the video camera is concerned, I said that I had told a
24 lie and I am now telling the truth.
25 Q. I am going to go on to another subject. After a very
1 short time in your duties at Celebici, your job was
2 driver, correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Once you became the driver, you had no other duties,
5 that was your full time job at Celebici, correct?
6 A. Sometimes I was on duty next to the telephone, as I said
8 Q. So either you were on duty as a driver or at the
9 telephone ready to become the driver if anyone needed
10 you, basically.
11 A. No, while I was a driver I did those duties, and when
12 I had no duties in terms of driving, then in the evening
13 or during the day I would sit in the office where there
14 was a telephone and answer it.
15 Q. When you say "sit in the office", you are talking about
16 the -- what we have called here the command building,
17 the building where the offices were and some barracks
18 and showers and things of that nature, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you have any kind of regular working hours? Was
21 there a time of the day when you started work and a time
22 of the day when you finished work?
23 A. Not really. There were no precise working hours. When
24 necessary I would have to do what I was told. There
25 were no strict working hours.
1 Q. Did you work seven days a week, six days a week, five
2 days a week? Did you have days off that you could count
3 on being days off?
4 A. I could sometimes take a day off, Saturdays or Sundays
5 or some other day, but not very many, not very often.
6 Q. Would you say that during that time that you spent a
7 significant portion of each day you were working
8 actually driving?
9 A. Yes, not every day, sometimes it would be the whole day
10 and sometimes no, but it depended on the day.
11 Q. If you were not called upon to drive at the time you
12 were supposed to be driving, then I assume you were
13 waiting for someone to let you know that you were then
14 going to be called upon to drive?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On your driving duties mostly what you were doing was
17 driving prisoners who were released to their villages,
18 mostly to Donje Selo because that is where most of them
19 were going; is that a fair statement?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. That would happen as many as four or five times a week
22 that you would be driving prisoners who had been
23 released to their villages, correct?
24 A. I do not know exactly how many times. I cannot remember
1 Q. When you gave your statement to the office of the OTP in
2 your home country, do you recall telling them that it
3 was four or five times a week you would take them to
4 where they lived; do you recall telling them that?
5 A. Yes, in the period of release sometimes more of them
6 were released, sometimes less, so it depended.
7 Sometimes I had to drive them four or five times,
8 sometimes twice.
9 Q. So there were times when four or five times a week you
10 would be driving prisoners to their homes who had been
12 A. Maybe not four or five, but not -- that does not mean
13 literally four or five times.
14 Q. So when you told the investigator from the office of the
15 Tribunal that it was four or five times a week, you did
16 not mean that literally when you said that, that was
17 just something you made up figuratively?
18 A. I said literally, but not exactly. I could not know
19 exactly. I could not recall exactly how often it was.
20 Q. I think you told us yesterday, and I just want to make
21 certain that I understood you correctly, that these
22 releases of prisoners were primarily due to the efforts
23 of Mr. Mucic, Mr. Pavo Mucic, who was constantly agitating
24 for the old or the young or the innocent to be released
25 from Celebici; that is correct, is it not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Mucic helped the Serbs as much as he could, did he
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. T, you described for us yesterday, and I am changing
6 now to another subject, you described for us yesterday
7 an incident where --
8 MS. McHENRY: If I may, may I just interrupt for one
9 second, I am sorry counsel for interrupting. I just
10 want the record to be clear. I just found the section
11 where the witness was asked how long he drove prisoners
12 home and I would just like the record to reflect in its
13 entirety the full sentence the witness said.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no problem with
15 Ms McMurray doing a re-exam if she wants to --
16 Ms McHenry doing a re-exam if she wants to correct
17 something. I think it is inappropriate for her to
18 interrupt my cross-examination for that purpose.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Wait until you can correct this.
20 MS. McHENRY: Okay. Just let the record note that the
21 representation of what was said was not accurate. Thank
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can correct it later.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me go to that part of the record that
25 Ms McHenry is talking about, just to make sure we are
1 all being fair here. If you will recall, you were asked
2 the question:
3 "How often would that be, do you think", talking
4 about you taking prisoners home, "once a week, twice a
6 Answer: In the beginning it was not that often
7 but later on as the food was expensive and we could not
8 hold prisoners, could not feed them, so it was four or
9 five times a week that we would take them to wherever
10 they lived, to their villages and he would be with me
11 most often", he referring to Pavo Mucic.
12 Is that a fair statement?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay.
15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: To go on to the next subject that I wanted to
17 raise with you, you described for us in your testimony
18 yesterday an incident where a prisoner at Celebici by
19 the name of Zara Mrkajic was "tied to a pillar, the
20 electricity pile, the handcuffs, he was beaten before
21 that and later he was tied to a pole and he was left
22 there about four or five hours. They beat him while he
23 was there."
24 Do you recall that testimony?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. You also told us that this was done by people from
2 outside the prison, correct?
3 A. I said that as far as I remembered, it was done by
4 people from outside the prison.
5 Q. After you had given that testimony, some time later, we
6 all sat here in the courtroom and watched some
7 videotapes, and one of those videotapes was of a party
8 that was going on at Celebici where people were singing
9 and drinking beer and that sort of thing. You remember
10 viewing that party, do you not?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. You identified one of the persons partying in that party
13 as Zara Mrkajic, did you not?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. That must be a different Zara Mrkajic than you were
16 talking about being tied to the pole.
17 A. No, it is the same Zara Mrkajic.
18 Q. Did you see any evidence in the pictures that we saw
19 yesterday that this person had been tied to a pole and
20 severely beaten? Did you see wounds on his body, did he
21 look like someone who had been tortured in those
22 pictures that we saw yesterday?
23 A. No, because those shots were made later, I do not
24 remember how much later.
25 Q. So the videos were taken significantly after the
1 incident you described about his being beaten?
2 A. I do not know how much later, I could not say exactly.
3 Q. Zara Mrkajic was a prisoner there at Celebici for quite
4 a long time, was he not?
5 A. I do not know for how long.
6 Q. Was he there when you first went there?
7 A. Not sure, but I think that he came later.
8 Q. All right. But by the time of September 3rd in that
9 party we were discussing yesterday, any evidence that he
10 had been tied to a pole and beaten had apparently
11 disappeared, because it was not visible, at least in
12 those pictures; correct?
13 A. Yes, no traces of the beating could be seen. As far as
14 I know, I did not see anyone else beating him after
16 Q. Okay. I want to talk to you now about your testimony
17 yesterday with regard to the food that was provided to
18 the prisoners at Celebici. You told us, I believe,
19 yesterday, that the prisoners did not get enough food
20 and the food was of poor quality.
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. I take it when you mean that the prisoners did not get
23 enough food, what you mean is they were being slowly
24 starved, they were not getting enough food to sustain
25 their existence over a long period of time.
1 A. As I said, they were given food once, twice, sometimes
2 three times, it depended on the situation. The food was
3 poor. Mostly they were not exactly starving, it was not
4 really starvation, but they were not fed either.
5 Q. Would you say that they were getting enough food to
6 maintain themselves at roughly the same weight and
7 health that they were in when they came to Celebici, or
8 were they all rapidly losing weight?
9 A. I think that 90 per cent of them lost weight,
10 90 per cent of the prisoners lost weight.
11 Q. I take you back again to the video that we saw yesterday
12 when we saw the prisoner Zara Mrkajic, Mr. Mrkajic looked
13 pretty well fed in that video of September 1992, did he
15 A. Yes, because before that he was rather a big man and he
16 had certain privileges in the prison so that he did not
17 go short of food.
18 Q. So a man you have described as having been tied to a
19 post and beaten severely had privileges?
20 A. Yes, he acquired them later.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I wonder if this might not be an
22 appropriate time for the lunch break.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are still continuing with your
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I believe so. I have another area here that
1 I will probably cover.
2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, if I may briefly make a request
3 for your Honours' consideration. The Prosecution would
4 request that all efforts be made to finish this
5 witness's testimony today, so I do not know if
6 your Honours would consider coming back 15 minutes or a
7 half hour early for lunch and then if necessary going
8 later this evening. I wanted to bring that to the
9 court's attention, because there are some reasons.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We might consider the end of the
11 working day, there can be some extension.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I may, since my colleague
13 suggested an adjournment, I took my headphones off and
14 I did not understand the proposal of my distinguished
15 colleague so if it is possible, I would like to ask her
16 to repeat her request.
17 JUDGE JAN: What she has said is that cross-examination if
18 possible be finished today and for that purpose we might
19 cut down the luncheon break --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: By 15 minutes. If then you heard my
21 reaction, that was that we could continue, have a normal
22 lunch break, come back and at the end of the working
23 day, we might see how to extend and cover the rest of
24 the cross-examination. Perhaps it depends on how the
25 cross-examination goes.
1 (1.05 pm)
2 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)
1 (2.30 pm)
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, if I may?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, but I thought you were continuing
4 with the cross-examination, but you may bring up
5 anything important.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, I do apologise to you and to my
7 colleague. However, the Registrar informed me that you
8 have received our request; therefore to be allowed early
9 next week to present our final argument regarding our
10 request for removing all the evidence seized in Vienna,
11 since today is the last day of the week I would like to
12 ask you to decide on that. We have given our arguments
13 in writing briefly and I think that I have repeated them
14 on several occasions. We are given this right by the
15 letter of the Prosecutor who, following the presentation
16 of evidence with several witnesses from Vienna, informed
17 us that Mr. Panzer would be the last witness that the
18 Prosecutor would be inviting, therefore we would just
19 like to ask the court to inform us and to reach such a
20 decision that the final arguments may be offered early
21 next week.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that will be convenient. We
23 will take it early next week when we come back, I think
24 on Tuesday, it is. On Tuesday we should be able to take
25 it, about 11.00 on Tuesday.
1 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, might I say something about the
2 timing? Your Honours, it looks as though this witness
3 will consume the rest of today. We have one witness --
4 there is two witnesses who have been here all this week
5 and in fact one of them has been here since Thursday of
6 last week waiting to give his testimony. He is going to
7 be held over until Tuesday here in The Hague and we are
8 anxious at least to have those two witnesses give their
9 evidence as soon as possible, so that they need not be
10 delayed any longer than is necessary. These issues --
11 these legal arguments, your Honours, are matters which
12 in our submission are not so pressing as the concerns of
13 witnesses who have been held here -- it will then be
14 almost two weeks.
15 In my submission, your Honours, after the
16 conclusion of their evidence, if that is a convenient
17 time for the Chamber, then by all means we can proceed
18 with the matter then. I hasten to add that I do not
19 anticipate that either of the two witnesses will testify
20 as to anything that will touch upon the matters which
21 could be concerned with this particular application.
22 I do not foresee that at this stage, so it would be our
23 submission that those two witnesses be permitted to
24 testify so they can go home rather than having to wait
25 pending what may be lengthy legal argument on these
2 Finally, your Honour, I might say that nothing
3 I might write in a letter to the Defence gives anybody
4 rights. That is a matter for the Chamber, not for the
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will consider it, which
7 means you are likely to bring those witnesses on Tuesday
8 the 9th?
9 MR. NIEMANN: Tuesday and Wednesday, I would think. It will
10 take two days for both of them to complete their
11 evidence. They are here now ready to give evidence as
12 the next two witnesses and have been here -- because the
13 evidence has gone a little slower than we anticipated.
14 Last time it went faster, so unfortunately it is not a
15 precise business.
16 JUDGE JAN: You took the whole of yesterday examining this
17 witness. The Defence is at least entitled to that much
19 MR. NIEMANN: I am not criticising anybody, your Honour.
20 I am just saying the whole process is imprecise.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr.s Residovic, are you agreeable to the
22 arrangements so that after taking these other witnesses,
23 we can now be free to take arguments at length,
24 whichever way you want it. Are these other witnesses
25 really related to anything concerning this argument?
1 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, they are not. They are
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, we agree for witnesses to be
4 heard, but in any case, we insist that during next week,
5 if the court can provide us with that possibility to
6 offer our final arguments regarding our request,
7 therefore this may be Wednesday or Thursday. Thank
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that depends on the length of
10 your cross-examination of these other witnesses, for you
11 to consider Wednesday or Thursday. We should be able to
12 guarantee that. You may now proceed with your
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, your Honour.
15 Mr. T, yesterday when you testified in this court,
16 you were asked the following question by Mr. Moran. It
17 is at page 130, lines 18 through 20 of the LiveNote
19 "You were at the camp essentially continually
20 from, what, May 1992 through November 1992,
21 October/November 1992?
22 Answer: Yes, that is correct."
23 Do you still abide by that or do you want to
24 change that?
25 THE INTERPRETER: May we have the microphone on for the
1 witness, please?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The witness's microphone should be on.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is on.
4 A. As I said, I really cannot remember exactly a month or
5 two, a month here or there, but something like that,
6 around that time.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Is it your position that you could have been
8 there through the month of November?
9 A. I think I was not there throughout November.
10 Q. You think you left some time perhaps in the month of
12 A. Perhaps, I am not certain.
13 Q. All right. We do know for certain, do we not, that you
14 were there on August 12th when the Red Cross made a
15 visit to the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So if what you told the investigators in your home
18 country, that you were there for three or four months,
19 is true, and if in fact you were there until some time
20 in November, then August through November would
21 encompass that three or four month period, would it not?
22 A. I cannot give a precise answer to that question.
23 Q. That is all right, thank you. I have one final matter.
24 At the time you were being questioned by the OTP
25 investigator in your home country, you were, of course,
1 asked questions with regard to the allegation that you
2 had committed a rape while you were at Celebici. You
3 were questioned to some extent about that by the OTP
4 investigator on the day that statement was made,
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. One of the answers that you gave to that investigator
8 regarding that matter was that:
9 "And if I were to rape anyone, I would rape a 24
10 year old girl, not a woman of 60."
11 You said that, did you not?
12 A. Yes, I did say that.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: That is all the questions I have,
14 your Honours. I would request that for the record,
15 Ms McHenry identify for the record the two
16 investigators, the names of whom this witness could not
17 remember that were present during the 12 or 14 hours of
18 interviews that went on here Sunday and Monday, for
19 purposes of the rule regarding no contact between
21 MS. McHENRY: Certainly we are happy to answer. The
22 persons present, depending on the exact time, were
23 either Mr. Bart D'Hooge, Mr. Alistair McLeod with respect
24 to the videos and Mr. Dan Sackson, who is a lawyer.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Does that satisfy your
3 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, your Honour. That is what I asked for
4 and I appreciate it very much. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other cross-examination?
6 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC
7 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Let me just prepare myself a
9 Good afternoon, Mr. T.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I hope that due to this long examination you are not
12 tired, you can go on.
13 A. Yes, thank you.
14 Q. Regarding my conversation with you, I will hope to be as
15 brief as possible so we can finish our work and return
16 home happily.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. T, during the previous day, actually the day before
19 yesterday, I asked to establish contact with you and to
20 speak with you. Have you been informed about that, that
21 I as Defence counsel, to introduce myself, my name is
22 Zeljko Olujic, attorney from Zagreb, defending Zdravko
23 Mucic, I said that I would like to have personal contact
24 with you, have you been informed about that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. May I hear the reason we have not met and why we have
2 not spoken?
3 A. I had a headache and I was tired.
4 Q. Was that what you wanted or somebody suggested?
5 A. That is what I wanted.
6 Q. Thank you. Mr. T, during the examination-in-chief when
7 you were interviewed by the Prosecution representatives
8 that following your arrival to Celebici, the camp
9 commander was somebody from the MUP; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you, Mr. T, know what the gentleman's name was?
12 A. No, I am sorry.
13 Q. I would like to ask you something else that I forgot to
14 mention at the very beginning, and that is that during
15 our conversation we both speak in the Croatian language,
16 but all this is being translated to the official
17 languages of the court, i.e. English and French.
18 Therefore, I would like to ask you, when I am asking the
19 question I would like to ask you to wait for the
20 answer. You will hear the translation and then you
21 should wait for the end of the translation, once you
22 hear that you can give your answer to me and please try
23 to be as slow as possible in your answers so that the
24 interpreters can give us a precise interpretation.
25 During your examination-in-chief, on one occasion
1 you said that when Mr. Mucic was the commander, that he
2 spent an hour or two in the camp and literally, I quote:
3 "He was away rather than there."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. T, please tell us, did Mr. Mucic ever stay in the camp
7 overnight, as far as you know, or he slept outside the
9 A. I remember that he stayed overnight once.
10 Q. Only once?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Also during the examination-in-chief, you
13 said that there were no instructions for the guards in
14 the camp, there were no meetings held, nor anything like
15 that regarding the organisation of the camp; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. T, you also mentioned a Mr. Bato Kuljanin and you said
19 that he was physically mistreated, but by people from
20 outside the camp, and you said precisely that those
21 people were members of the MUP; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So Mr. Bato Kuljanin was not mistreated by the camp
25 A. No, he was not.
1 Q. Mr. T, tell us if those gentlemen from the MUP were
2 armed. Did they have weapons?
3 A. Probably yes, I cannot remember.
4 Q. Could Mr. Mucic have disarmed them?
5 A. I do not know if he was there at the time.
6 Q. But when that was the situation, was Mr. Mucic able to
7 disarm, so to speak, the men from the MUP?
8 A. No, same as I was not able to prevent them from coming
10 Q. And why was he not able to do that?
11 A. Because those were people who had been on frontlines,
12 those were the ones who had captured the prisoners, so
13 they used to come down to take their revenge.
14 Q. How did those people come to the camp to start with?
15 A. Through the gate.
16 Q. Which gate?
17 A. At the entrance.
18 Q. The main entrance?
19 A. Yes, the main entrance.
20 Q. Mr. T, in view of everything that my predecessors have
21 asked you, I do understand that it has been quite a
22 while and you cannot remember everything, it has been
23 five years and people wish to forget things, but can we
24 state that you actually cannot precisely remember,
25 cannot precisely decide on certain times and dates
1 regarding things that had happened during the war that
2 happened in that part of the world.
3 A. Yes, I do have problems remembering the exact times of
4 certain events.
5 Q. Mr. T, have you ever committed a criminal offence, a
6 criminal offence as defined by the Criminal Code of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina or the country where you are now?
8 A. Yes, I was charged with a murder in Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 that I had not committed.
10 Q. How were you charged and tried? Were you present or was
11 it an in absentia trial?
12 A. That trial was by force, under coercion.
13 Q. Did you hold any rank?
14 During both examination-in-chief and
15 cross-examination, you told us that you had been
16 interrogated in the country of your present residence by
17 the federal officers and second by the representatives
18 of the OTP.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. My question is: if you had known that you could be on
21 trial or you could be charged with rape, that there were
22 such charges against you, would you have requested
23 presence of Defence counsel on the spot?
24 A. I am sorry, I did not understand.
25 Q. Hypothetically, if you had known that you were being
1 charged with rape, that somebody -- if somebody had
2 informed you about that, would you have requested
3 immediate presence of Defence counsel, so if there is
4 justified suspicion against someone, would you have
5 requested presence of Defence counsel?
6 MS. McHENRY: I think it is improper and unfair to ask this
7 witness to answer hypothetical questions.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can put your question to him. Ask
10 MR. OLUJIC: When you were interrogated by representatives of
11 your present country of residence, you were told that
12 there are charges brought against you for rape.
13 A. No, I was not told that, I was just told that somebody
14 had accused me of rape.
15 Q. But why did you not ask for your Defence counsel to be
17 A. I did not do it, therefore there was no need.
18 Q. So you feel totally innocent?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please tell us, since 1992, when you left the
21 area of Konjic, has any organisation or anyone else ever
22 told you what you should say or what you should testify
23 to if you are invited to the International Tribunal?
24 A. No.
25 Q. What do you think, why, when you were interrogated, why
1 did the investigator tell you at the very end when he
2 asked you about what you had known about Mr. Mucic and he
3 said that certain people were blaming you for rape, why
4 did he not tell you so at the beginning?
5 A. I have no idea.
6 Q. Are you married?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where is your wife? You do not have to tell me
9 directly. Is she living with you? Is your wife living
10 with you in the country where you are coming from?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you married when you were in Celebici?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You said that you had been a driver. You did serve your
15 duty in the JNA. When you were with JNA, were you a
16 driver as well?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you asked the investigator, the representative of
19 OTP to give you an answer regarding your loss of income
20 during your stay here, were you satisfied with the
21 answer you received regarding the compensation?
22 A. Yes, but now I am being told that not everything can be
24 Q. You said during examination-in-chief that you knew
25 Mr. Mucic. Has Mr. Mucic ever proposed to you anything
1 that could be illegal such as black marketeering,
2 soliciting, blackmail, et cetera?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did Mr. Mucic hold any military rank?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did Mr. Mucic ever order you to do anything that could be
7 considered illegal?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Has Mr. Mucic ever told you that he had seen a person
10 being raped?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Has Mr. Mucic ever told you that he knew or had known
13 about any beatings?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Just what you know.
16 A. He never told me he had seen any beatings, but since --
17 he used to receive reports from Hazim, I do not know if
18 he had told him.
19 Q. No, I am asking about your experiences?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Has he ever told you about knowing about killings?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Has he ever told you that he had seen torture?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was Mr. Mucic ever harsh with the prisoners?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Mr. T, before the war had you ever seen a camouflage
4 A. In films.
5 Q. But not in Konjic?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Were you able to tell the difference between JNA
8 camouflage uniforms, those of the Territorial Defence,
9 HVO and others?
10 A. No, they were all more or less the same uniforms with
11 some different insignia.
12 Q. You mentioned that members of the MUP had come inside
13 the prison. Was reserve police force ever going through
14 the prison as well, the reservists? Did you see them
16 A. I do not know, I did not understand, who are reservists?
17 Q. With regular police, there was also the reserve police
18 force, the reserve police forces, those who were not
19 regular policemen with salaries, but those who worked as
20 reserve policemen, exactly that.
21 A. Perhaps, but I cannot remember exactly.
22 Q. Did you see other uniforms in the camp, in the prison?
23 You described the MUP. Did you see people wearing other
25 A. There were members of Mitke Pirkic, then sometimes
1 Rale's soldiers would come and maybe some others, but
2 I cannot remember.
3 Q. Tell me, how did you feel when you heard that the
4 investigator, when you were being interviewed in your
5 home country, and when you were told that Mr.s Grozdana
6 Cecez claimed that you raped her?
7 A. I felt awful.
8 Q. Did you feel blackmailed as a result?
9 A. I do not understand. What do you mean blackmailed?
10 Q. You said you felt awful. Could you explain that a
11 little? Were you empty, were you emotionally distressed
12 as a result?
13 A. I was very upset, I could never imagine that anyone
14 could tell such a lie about me, especially someone I had
15 helped. So I was literally flabbergasted.
16 Q. Mr. T, please tell us how you felt at the beginning of
17 the interview, when the investigator said that he would
18 question you on the basis of the requests from the
19 Yugoslav Tribunal for war crimes in The Hague.
20 A. Could you clarify that please?
21 Q. From the translation that you received today and read,
22 you saw that the interrogator said that he would be
23 questioning you on the basis of a request from the
24 Yugoslav Tribunal for war crimes in The Hague. How did
25 you feel then? Did you feel afraid that some one from
1 Yugoslavia wanted to question you?
2 A. No, I did not.
3 Q. You said that when you arrived at the Celebici prison
4 there were some civilians there, but that the majority
5 were those captured around Bradina and Donje Selo; is
6 that correct?
7 A. No, I said that they were prisoners from Donje Selo.
8 Q. And were there people from Bradina too?
9 A. They came later.
10 Q. Do you know whether there was any fighting there, or did
11 the Croatian and Muslim forces enter those places
12 without any resistance?
13 A. No, some places there was. In Donje Selo there was not
14 much resistance, but in Bradina and Brdjani there was
15 some fighting.
16 Q. Who put the resistance?
17 A. The Serb population, the Serb inhabitants.
18 Q. Were they armed?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were they organised?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did they have their commanders?
23 A. I do not know exactly whether they had commanders.
24 There were some locals there, they may have been in
25 charge. Yes, I just remembered, there was Vlado Cecez,
1 he was in Donje Selo and I think Mica, I cannot remember
2 his surname, he was from Bradina.
3 Q. Tell me, Mr. T, let us go back a little to the situation
4 in the prison itself, while you were there, of course,
5 because I am asking you only what you know from personal
6 knowledge. Did the prisoners have a morning salute with
7 the playing of a hymn and saluting the flag?
8 A. The prisoners? No.
9 Q. Did any such event occur for the soldiers or the guards?
10 A. Very rarely were there any such events, but without a
11 flag .
12 Q. So you exclude the possibility of this having been a
13 regular affair?
14 A. No, it was not regular.
15 Q. What was the discipline like in the camp?
16 A. It was quite good while Pavo was there. When he left,
17 then it was quite a different story.
18 Q. Were there any conflicts among the guards when Mr. Mucic
19 was not there, amongst themselves?
20 A. I do not know, perhaps yes, perhaps no, I do not
22 Q. I should now like to ask you something, of course if you
23 can remember, whether somewhere in the autumn you ever
24 crossed into Serb held territory together with
25 Mr. Zdravko Mucic?
1 A. To Donje Selo?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. Yes, we took the prisoners to Donje Selo.
4 Q. So that was the competence of the Serb forces, was it
6 A. No, it was free.
7 Q. But can you remember ever crossing into Serb held
8 territory with him?
9 A. On one occasion, we went to a -- what is its name,
10 somewhere near Kresevo.
11 Q. Fine. How did you go there?
12 A. With his car.
13 Q. Was this under Serb authority? How did they receive you
14 when you got there?
15 A. No, I did not see anyone. I stayed at the checkpoint,
16 I could not go any further. I do not know what
18 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Mr. T, thank you, your Honours.
19 I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I start?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
23 Cross-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC
24 Q. Thank you, your Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. T.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I am Defence counsel for
2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I know that you are rather tired.
3 I shall try to make my questions brief and clear and
4 I ask you if you do not understand any question to tell
5 me immediately so that I can repeat myself and make
6 myself clear.
7 A. Fine.
8 Q. Will you please answer my questions also briefly and
9 precisely, of course if that is possible?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the warning made a moment ago by my colleague
12 Olujic, please bear that in mind, because the two of us
13 speak a language we understand very well, and you can
14 answer my question very quickly. However, what is most
15 important is that everything we are saying should be
16 understood by the Trial Chamber and the other colleagues
17 in the courtroom, so that please when I put a question
18 to you wait for the interpretation in the headphones and
19 answer my question then, so that there will be no
20 problems with the interpretation of our conversation.
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. Mr. T, you were born and grew up in Konjic, is that not
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At the beginning of 1992, you were in Konjic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were in Konjic when the aggression against
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina occurred at the beginning of April
4 1992, is that not so?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mr. T, you were aware that all the citizens of Bosnia and
7 Herzegovina and particularly members of the Croatian
8 nation were following closely what had been happening
9 the previous year in Croatia, is that not correct?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. You are also aware that in Konjic the Croatian people
12 started to prepare for the possible untoward events that
13 actually occurred later.
14 A. I think that everyone was preparing, both the Croatian
15 and the Muslim people started to arm. I do not think
16 that some people started early and some later.
17 Q. Yesterday you said in your testimony, Mr. T, that you as
18 a soldier were assigned to the Celebici prison by your
19 commander, Zeljko Brekalo?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Zeljko Brekalo was a commander of the military police of
22 the Croatian Defence council, was he not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell me, Mr. T, do you know what position in the
25 HVO military police Ivo --
1 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, we did not get the surname.
2 Could counsel please repeat?
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will you kindly repeat the question?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can you please tell us what position in the
5 HVO military police was held by Ivo Vujicevic?
6 A. I know he was the main boss for the Croatian police, for
7 the operations in Donje Selo. I do not know what rank
8 he had. I think he did not have any rank. What
9 happened with him later I do not know.
10 Q. So at that time, the time we are talking about, that is
11 April/May, the period you are testifying about, Ivo
12 Vujicevic was commander of the HVO military police of
14 A. No, he was not the commander, he was some kind of a
15 special fighter. He volunteered, he came from abroad.
16 He was head of the operations in Donje Selo on behalf of
17 the Croatian police of the HVO.
18 Q. Thank you. Mr. T, you also said yesterday that there was
19 a short interruption in your stay in the Celebici
20 prison, and among other things you said the reason was
21 that at that time, what you described as the Muslim
22 police, had been formed. My question is: are you
23 implying that at that time the military police of the
24 Territorial Defence of Konjic was being formed, is that
25 its official name?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From the beginning of the aggression, Mr. T, is it true
3 to say that in the HVO military police to which you
4 belonged as well, there were quite a number of Muslims?
5 A. It is correct.
6 Q. The formation of the military police of the Territorial
7 Defence occurred much later, somewhere around the
8 beginning of July; do you remember that?
9 A. I do not know exactly when it was formed, but it was
10 later, after the formation of the Croatian police.
11 Q. And only then a part of the Muslims from the HVO
12 military police switched over to the military police of
13 the Territorial Defence?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also said, Mr. T, that certain clashes occurred
16 between the commands of the HVO and the TO, do you
17 remember that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you recall that somewhere at the end of June and
20 throughout July there were battles near Borci and
21 Glavaticevo in which the Croatian Defence counsel forces
22 did not participate; do you know that?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Do you also know that that was the initial cause of the
25 mentioned conflicts between the HVO and the TO in Konjic
1 at the time?
2 A. I do not know. This is the first time I am hearing of
3 that reason. I have not heard it before.
4 Q. So that when yesterday you were saying that members of
5 the HVO police had withdrawn from the Celebici prison,
6 this occurred at the time when the military police of
7 the TO was being formed and when you yourself were
8 absent for two or three days.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. As a citizen of Konjic, you joined the war
11 at a very early age, did you not?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. Is that the reason, Mr. T, why yesterday in answer to one
14 of the questions put to you, you responded spontaneously
15 "gentlemen, there was a war, you understand it was a
16 war". Do you remember this response on your part?
17 A. I do not.
18 Q. But you can remember that for you as a young man, war
19 and the horrors that started to happen in Konjic were a
20 terrible experience, were they not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you confirm in this court that the shelling of
23 Konjic started on 4th May and that after that there were
24 dozens and hundreds of shells falling on Konjic?
25 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, could the witness repeat his
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please let the witness answer your last
3 question. Kindly repeat it so he can answer, because he
4 did not answer it.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. T, can you confirm that from May 4th
6 heavy shelling of Konjic continued on a daily basis and
7 that there were dozens and hundreds of shells dropping
8 on the town?
9 A. That is true, they were coming from planes and from Serb
10 held territory in Borci.
11 Q. Those shells hit people in the street, people in their
12 apartments, schools, hospitals, the hospital, industrial
13 and other facilities, is that not so?
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Since we were cautioned a moment ago, my question is
16 much longer than your answer, so before you answer it
17 please wait for the interpretation into English so there
18 will be no confusion.
19 A. I am listening to the Croatian interpretation.
20 Q. Yes, but on these other earphones on the table you can
21 hear the English interpretation and when that is over
22 please answer the question. Thank you.
23 Can you tell me, Mr. T, whether it is true that
24 Celebici is about 10 kilometres south of Konjic in the
25 direction of Jablanica?
1 A. Yes, something like that, 10 or 15 kilometres -- 10,
2 yes, that is right.
3 Q. And that is an area that was not subject to daily
4 shelling, as was the case with the centre of the town of
6 A. Yes, that is true, maybe some shells fell on Celebici
7 only two or three times in all.
8 Q. Therefore from the standpoint of shelling, the Celebici
9 area was safer than the area of the city centre; is that
11 A. Yes, it was safer, that is correct.
12 Q. Mr. T, can you tell me whether it is true that after the
13 liberation of Bradina, several thousand refugees came
14 from Eastern Herzegovina and Eastern Bosnia who had
15 previously found shelter on the slopes of Bjelasnica and
17 A. I do not know which refugees you are referring to.
18 Q. The Muslim and the Croat.
19 A. I do not know, I am not aware of that. I cannot
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. There were quite a number of people from Eastern Bosnia,
23 from Zepca, Srebrenica.
24 Q. In the town at the time there were several thousand new
25 refugees, were there not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All this caused a great deal of difficulty in terms of
3 accommodation and food for these people?
4 A. Yes, it is true.
5 Q. You said that in the former JNA, you had served in the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These shellings of Konjic after May 4th were artillery
9 shellings using heavy weapons.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And they came from the eastern side, from Borci, that is
12 from positions held only by Serb forces; is that not so?
13 A. Yes, it is.
14 Q. The town was shelled from those positions until June
15 1993, when you left Konjic; is that not so?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. T, you said in this courtroom that there was a
18 commission in Celebici which interrogated the people
19 detained in Celebici. Are you aware that the first
20 President and head of the investigating commission was
21 the former judge Goran Lokas?
22 A. I cannot remember, I am sorry.
23 Q. If I were to remind you -- let me first ask you whether
24 you know Goran Lokas.
25 A. I cannot remember.
1 Q. Let me ask you; do you know Ljerko Kostic?
2 A. The name sounds familiar, but I cannot remember his
4 Q. If I were to remind you and ask you whether it is true
5 that he later on became head of the investigators who
6 were questioning the prisoners, would you recall him
8 A. I cannot, I am sorry. I remember somebody called Kuhar
9 and another one who was also quite an elderly man, he
10 was also working in the Ministry of the Interior, but
11 I cannot remember them exactly.
12 Q. Were you aware, Mr. T, that the commission for
13 investigating prisoners also determined the categories
14 to which those prisoners belonged?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Do you also know that at the very beginning the
17 commission released about 50 detainees who did not have
18 any weapons nor were in any way linked with the
19 blockages in the town?
20 A. As far as I can remember there were two minor children
21 who had been released and there were elderly people
22 released, but number I cannot remember.
23 Q. And you know that that was done by the commission which
24 was questioning those persons?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. T, you said yesterday, and I will quote
2 from the transcript, about the stories in town and the
3 things you heard from the guards regarding Zejnil
4 Delalic. You heard that he had been in charge of Prozor
5 and Konjic; is that what you said?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you also hear from Mr. Mucic that Zejnil Delalic was
8 later the commander of the Tactical Group 1, also from
9 these other people?
10 A. I heard from other people, I do not know if I heard from
11 Zdravko Mucic. I cannot remember.
12 Q. However, you probably heard from Zdravko Mucic that he
13 knew Zejnil Delalic quite well because before the war
14 they had both worked in Austria; is that so?
15 A. Yes, that is so.
16 Q. On the occasion when you spoke with Mr. Mucic, Mucic was
17 actually telling you about how he could address
18 Mr. Delalic freely, that he was closer to him than to
19 others and that he believed that Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
20 willing to help him if he was able to do so; is that
22 A. Excuse me, can you repeat the question, please?
23 Q. Did you also in conversations with Mr. Mucic hear that he
24 was for certain things free to address Mr. Delalic and
25 that he was certain that if Mr. Delalic was able to do
1 something to help, that he was certainly going to do
2 that; is that the way Mr. Mucic told you about this?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Mr. T, in this courtroom, you said that you saw
5 Mr. Delalic in Celebici twice, once at a party and once
6 when he was in Mr. Mucic's office. Please tell me, were
7 you present in the office where Mr. Mucic and Mr. Delalic
9 A. No, I was not.
10 Q. So you were never present in their alleged conversations
11 and meetings?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is it true that you said that you saw Mr. Delalic for the
14 second time at a party, so I am asking you now: was that
15 a party in the second half of August where a solemn oath
16 was declared by members of the Territorial Defence? Is
17 that the celebration we are talking about?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it true that at the time the soldiers of the
20 Territorial Defence of Konjic, they were giving their
21 solemn declaration before their commander Salem Ramic?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. Is it true that during this celebration, Mr. Delalic came
24 from Igman and greeted the soldiers who were present?
25 A. I do not know if he had arrived from Igman. I cannot
1 remember that.
2 Q. But that is the second time when you saw Mr. Delalic, is
3 that so?
4 A. Yes, that is so.
5 Q. Mr. T, in the statement you gave to the investigator in
6 your country of residence, you said that the Celebici
7 barracks was a huge facility where up to 10,000 soldiers
8 could be accommodated; is that correct?
9 A. No, I said that up to 10,000 people could be
10 accommodated there, detainees.
11 Q. In this courtroom, you said that as far as you could
12 recollect, in the Celebici prison there was a total of
13 120 to 150 prisoners and that they were accommodated
14 only in three buildings; did you say that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell us if it is true when I say that the space
17 where these prisoners were was smaller than -- was less
18 than 5 per cent of the entire territory of the barracks?
19 A. I do not know precisely.
20 Q. Can I ask you, is it less than 5 per cent, the small
21 space that you talked about, is it less than 5 per cent
22 compared to the space where you said 10,000 people could
23 be accommodated?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. T, you also told the investigator that in
1 this huge barracks, there were many other facilities, is
2 that true?
3 A. I do not understand. What facilities?
4 Q. Warehouses for the Territorial Defence, the tactical
5 group, there were soldiers accommodated, weapons were
6 repaired; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In this courtroom you also said that there were many
9 people coming and going to and from the barracks for
10 different reasons, is that so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. T, I would just like to go back a little to the
13 statements you had given earlier to the police from the
14 country of your residence and later to the investigator
15 from the OTP. Is it correct, Mr. T, that the
16 representative of the Federal Prosecution informed you
17 that the interview with you was being conducted on
18 behalf of this International Tribunal?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. T, when he informed you that
21 there were certain accusations against you for the
22 murder of Zeljko Milosevic, that at the time, at the
23 same time, he said, and I quote:
24 "Evidence the Tribunal has at the moment indicates
25 that that is not true."
1 A. Yes, that is what he said.
2 Q. Is it true that after that, you were still willing to
3 speak about certain things?
4 A. I was the same as before, same as I had spoken earlier.
5 Q. I would just like to check some things with you, namely:
6 before the investigators of the Tribunal at the time,
7 you said that you had first registered with the military
8 police of the Croatian Defence Council, that you had
9 spent three months there and in this courtroom you said
10 you were first with the Territorial Defence; is that
12 A. Yes, because I had made a mistake. I was first with the
13 TO and later I went to the HVO police.
14 Q. Is it correct, Mr. T, that immediately after that reply,
15 when asked by the investigator when you applied to the
16 military police, was that a form of mobilisation, or was
17 that your choice to go there and register with the
18 military police, you said "that was my choice"?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. Is it also correct that you answered that at the time
21 the military police was known by the name HVO?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it correct that you also presented reasons why you
24 registered with the military police, and reasons which
25 you repeated in this courtroom as well?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. Is it correct that at the time you said that you needed
3 to know people to have connections in order to
4 facilitate your registration with the military police?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is it correct that you quoted your unfortunately
7 deceased friend, Mladen Pehar, as the person who helped
8 you with registration?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it also true that you said that you were at the time
11 officially issued an automatic rifle?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that you had a piece of cloth which indicated HVO on
14 your uniform?
15 A. No, when I went to HVO police I got the insignia. Until
16 then I had been with the TO.
17 Q. Is it true that at the time, same as today, you said
18 that you were sent to Celebici by your HVO police
19 commander Zeljko Brekalo?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Mr. T, were you wrong about all these things?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So, Mr. T, you went to Celebici as a member of the HVO
24 military police; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
1 Q. So at the beginning of the war, you were not a member of
2 the Territorial Defence?
3 A. I said first I was TO, then I went to the HVO police,
4 because at the time HVO police was providing guards to
5 Celebici, so I was a member of HVO.
6 Q. Mr. T, I do not want to confuse you with months.
7 A. No, you did not confuse me, I gave an excellent
8 answer -- a truthful answer.
9 Q. Mobilisation to Territorial Defence?
10 A. Then I moved to HVO police and then I was transferred to
11 Celebici to the prison as a member of HVO.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: The war in Bosnia started on April 6th.
13 That is when Bosnia was declared independent, and on
14 9th April Bosnia-Herzegovina declared mobilisation.
15 I believe the transcript contains all your statements
16 and your answers. I think we will be able to see
17 whether you were saying the truth or not. Thank you.
18 A. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you passing the witness?
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: I thanked and I am finished with my
21 cross-examination. Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any
24 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, the Prosecution does not have
25 any re-examination. I would ask that the statements of
1 the witness to the Office of the Prosecutor
2 representative and to the Federal Police be admitted for
3 the purpose of showing the extent to which this witness
4 has and has not been impeached, not for the truth of
5 it -- for that purpose.
6 JUDGE JAN: I can understand has been impeached, but I do
7 not understand has not been impeached.
8 MS. McHENRY: For instance, your Honour, it is the case
9 that at various points, even though the witness might
10 have said three or four months, when asked when he left
11 the camp, he would at other points have said, "I do not
12 know exactly, it was somewhere between September,
13 October, November", and those kinds of things -- for
14 instance, there was another: Defence counsel for
15 Mr. Landzo indicated that he had never talked about
16 Mr. Landzo before. When you look at the statement you
17 see he was never asked to give the names of any guards
18 or the names of anyone he saw mistreating anyone.
19 I think those are relevant to the cross-examination and
20 so we are not asking them for the truth, but to the
21 extent Defence -- every single Defence counsel has used
22 that statement to attempt to impeach him, I believe it
23 is proper and I believe this court has previously found
24 in such circumstances, it is entirely proper for either
25 party to ask that the statement be introduced.
1 JUDGE JAN: When you say has not been impeached, you mean
2 you want to corroborate his statement to the court, that
4 MS. McHENRY: I do not know corroborate, but one with
5 respect to Mr. Ackerman's question, I believe the
6 Prosecution is entitled to show what he was and was not
7 asked, and with respect to other Defence counsel, who
8 took out certain parts of what he said. When you look
9 at other parts they clarify or amplify what was asked of
10 him, so I think it is directly relevant to the extent to
11 which he has been impeached. Again, I would not say it
12 is for corroboration, but it is for to the extent that
13 on various issues, the Defence counsel has attempted to
14 impeach him, and has in fact -- the witness has often
15 correctly stated, "Well I did say X". In another point,
16 he may have clarified it, and I think it is important,
17 and only fair, for your Honours to have both portions in
18 front of you. We are not trying to seek it for the
19 truth of anything that has been admitted.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you appreciate that at the time the
21 statement was introduced, it was your obligation to have
22 asked why it was introduced at all and if it was for the
23 purpose of impeachment then they should have brought it
24 in. That is what should have happened, but now if all
25 you are doing is suggesting that it should now be
1 tendered in evidence then you should say why it should
2 be so tendered.
3 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe even Defence counsel
4 will concede that they showed him and referred in detail
5 to his statement for purposes of impeachment, because
6 I believed that -- I was not aware that I specifically
7 had to ask for what purpose they were doing it, but
8 since I believe that even Defence counsel would have to
9 concede that it was for purposes of impeachment, rather
10 than interrupt the flow of their cross-examination, as
11 we have in past occasions, I thought it most efficient
12 and most courteous to wait until the end and just ask
13 that the statement be admitted.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any objection to the statement
15 being tendered at this stage? It has all been
16 effectively and efficiently used in cross-examining
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I first have an objection to the
19 continued practice of Ms McHenry to testify as to the
20 contents of documents and things of that nature. In the
21 process of offering this she has now represented what
22 much of the contents of it are to this court. I think
23 it is improper. She repeatedly is suggesting in the
24 course of speaking objections, the witness hears what
25 she would hope his response would be to the question
1 that has been asked and now she has told you what she
2 thinks the statement contains, that you should be
3 interested in.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me interrupt you. If you remember,
5 when you were proceeding with your cross-examination,
6 asking him to deny certain things in the statement he
7 made, I asked you to put those things to him, which you
8 think he now would deny or admit. It was at that stage
9 I thought perhaps that foundation for impeaching him
10 might be laid, and then the prosecution would have a
11 purpose for witness statements being used, but since
12 everything has transpired, it showed that that statement
13 was a background for your cross-examination, it is
14 deserving that it should be tendered in evidence.
15 JUDGE JAN: We should have that statement to which you have
16 been referring for the purposes of impeachment.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the next thing I wanted to say
18 was, on behalf of Mr. Landzo, i have not objection to you
19 seeing the statement, because you will find when you
20 look at it that he was indeed asked about the names of
21 guards, and said he could not remember, he was sorry, it
22 was too long ago.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: From the transcript we have these
24 things will now be obvious, whether this statement is
25 what he remembers or does not remember.
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would have no objection to it,
2 except to the extent that to admit it to show the
3 purpose for which he was not impeached? If I choose not
4 to ask him about some inconsistent statement, does
5 that --
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is a fairly difficult way
7 of putting the reason why it is being admitted.
8 MR. MORAN: I think it is perfectly fair under the rules of
9 this Tribunal for the Tribunal to have the statement in
10 front of them -- not for the truth of the statements in
11 there, just to show how -- just to judge his veracity,
12 and for that limited purpose we would have no objection,
13 your Honour.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the only reason for which it
15 could even be --
16 MR. MORAN: I understand, your Honour, but terms of
17 Ms McHenry's tender made it seem a little wider than
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think she thought of anything
20 else. Yes, do you want to say anything?
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I wish to support my
22 colleagues that the motion to adopt is in a very limited
23 form. We have already discussed this one. Statements
24 do contain facts that have been included neither in the
25 examination-in-chief nor was there any discussion in
1 this courtroom. Therefore, we do not speak of those
2 statements as evidence proving the truth of the facts.
3 I asked for a redaction and I know the court did not
4 accept, but if these situations are to be repeated in
5 the future, perhaps we could consider that a part of
6 those statements are adjusted to the purpose for which
7 they are tendered. Thank you.
8 MR. OLUJIC: We have nothing new, we join in what our
9 colleagues have said previously. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think we will
11 admit the statements tendered to be admitted.
12 JUDGE JAN: They are not substantive evidence.
13 MS. McHENRY: That is correct, your Honour. The
14 Prosecution is not offering them as substantive
15 evidence, only that they relate to the credibility of
16 this witness with respect to what he has stated on this
17 stand. I believe the Registrar already has the
18 Serbo-Croatian versions and here are the English
19 versions which I will offer. Thank you, your Honours.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Without the statements in, his evidence
21 might be lopsided. It would not be complete.
22 MS. McHENRY: If I just may also briefly respond, the
23 Prosecution, me in particular, does not want to give
24 evidence but when I am asked a question, sometimes
25 I believe it to be appropriate to give a proffer,
1 particularly when asked about it. I do not wish to give
3 JUDGE JAN: We understand your position.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What was being contested was referring
5 to the content of the document itself in answer to
6 whatever question that was asked.
7 MS. McHENRY: It is the case that sometimes your Honours
8 ask a question and in making a proffer of the relevance
9 or the reason, it is entirely appropriate and proper for
10 counsel to give the -- for the Prosecution attorney or
11 the Defence attorney in fact, as Mr. Ackerman just did,
12 to give a proffer of why it would be relevant and
13 appropriate for the court to have this document. Thank
15 MR. GREAVES: Just before the break, just to offer an aside,
16 if I may. It is always said in the English courts that
17 evidence comes from the witness box, not from counsel.
18 I suspect that is the case in every jurisdiction which
19 we represent in this court. That is the first thing.
20 The second thing is this: my learned friend
21 Ms McHenry has advanced her own courtesy. Can I just
22 say this by way of compliment I hope to her, that she is
23 always unfailingly courteous and that is something we
24 appreciate. I may disagree violently with what she
25 says, but she always says it courteously. That should
1 be a lesson to us all.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I think that is
3 the end of this witness's testimony. He is discharged.
4 That is all we have to do for the time being. Is there
5 anything more for today?
6 MR. TURONE: We have another witness. I am not sure whether
7 he is on his way or already here, but anyway we have
8 another witness.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: All right, we will take him at 4.30.
10 (4.00 pm)
11 (A short break)
12 (4.30 pm)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Turone, I think you are in charge
15 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour. We call Mr. Rajko Draganic as
16 our next witness
17 (Witness entered court)
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the witness. Let him
20 RAJKO DRAGANIC (sworn).
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down, please.
22 MR. TURONE: May I proceed, your Honour?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.
24 Examined by MR. TURONE
25 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, sir.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. Would you please state your full name?
3 A. Rajko Draganic.
4 Q. What is your date of birth?
5 A. 28th September 1952 in Brdjani, Konjic.
6 Q. What is your ethnic group, please?
7 A. I am a Serb.
8 Q. Mr. Draganic, what education did you receive? I mean,
9 what kind of schools did you attend?
10 A. I completed secondary school for the drafts. I am a
11 woodworker and I operated construction machinery.
12 Q. Can you say exactly what was your profession at the
13 beginning of 1992?
14 A. I was working in Libya, in construction.
15 Q. Yes. Was there a time when you went back to Brdjani?
16 A. I returned to Brdjani on 28th April 1992.
17 Q. Mr. Draganic, was Brdjani a village with Serbian
18 majority? Can you say what was the ethnic composition
19 of Brdjani?
20 A. There were 70 per cent Serbs and 30 per cent Muslims.
21 Q. Thank you. What did you find to be the relationship
22 between Serbs and Muslims in the village of Brdjani when
23 you arrived there at the end of April 1992?
24 A. One could already feel that war was in the offing. Some
25 had good relations, some did not. We were each afraid
1 of the other and then the worst happened that should not
2 have happened, but up to the war, relations were good.
3 Q. Were there any negotiations between Serbs and Muslims in
4 your village at that time?
5 A. On 10th May, I was at home. We had agreed to meet at
6 the house of Mehmed Bukvic. We made a minutes of the
7 meeting that we would not touch each other, that
8 everything would be fine, but when I got home the
9 shooting started and that was when we retreated to
10 Bradina and that was when war broke out.
11 Q. What did you do with the minutes of this negotiation?
12 A. Believe me, I do not know what happened to the minutes.
13 I did not sign it, so I could not tell you anything
14 about it.
15 Q. What happened then? What happened after May 10th?
16 A. We, with our women and children, went to Bradina,
17 because Bradina was predominantly Serb populated, so we
18 thought we would be safer and then on the 25th, Bradina
19 was attacked. It fell on the 26th, immediately and, of
20 course, normally we retreated. I went to Brdjani to my
21 house, we handed in our weapons. The Muslims told us to
22 hand in our weapons and they would not hurt us, so that
23 is what we did. We went to the village, we surrendered
24 our weapons, we signed and we went back home. We were
25 home for 10 or 15 days, nobody bothered us until
1 15th June, when they came and said that we had to go to
2 Podorasac to the playground to make statements; or
3 rather that is when they took a list of us, they put us
4 in a truck and took us to Celebici.
5 Q. Going back about the time you were in Bradina and you
6 were telling us about a weapon, you had a weapon then at
7 that time; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Which kind of weapon did you have?
10 A. I had a M48 rifle.
11 Q. Can you tell the court who gave this weapon to you?
12 A. I was given by Zivak Strahinja, this weapon.
13 Q. Did other people receive weapons on that occasion?
14 A. Everybody had some already.
15 Q. Can you say briefly what was the reason for this
16 distribution of weapons?
17 A. Everybody feared that the worst would happen and people
18 were saying "you watch over your house if anyone attacks
19 it" and that is what happened, unfortunately. It
20 happened to me, just like that, so I had a terrible
21 tragedy. It should not have happened, but it happened.
22 Q. Sure. Mr. Draganic, you said you surrendered your
23 weapon. To whom did you surrender your weapon?
24 A. My neighbour, Agan Ramic and somebody called Dzibe was
25 there, I do not know his full name. Agan Ramic was my
1 neighbour and we worked together in the same company.
2 Q. After that you went back to Brdjani; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. So you were saying a while ago that on June 15th, you
5 were arrested and taken to Celebici. Can you briefly
6 explain the circumstances of your arrest on June 15th?
7 A. Let me tell you. On 14th June, my father came to my
8 house saying that Agan had said that I should send the
9 keys of my car for the needs of the TO, the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina --
11 Q. Please, Mr. Draganic, slow down a little when you give us
12 your account. Thank you very much.
13 A. Yes, I can. My father came to my house on 14th June in
14 the evening, and he said that I should give my car keys
15 because Agan wanted them. In the meantime a friend of
16 mine, a Muslim Sefik Piria, we had worked together in
17 Libya and he said to me "Rajko, give me your case,
18 I look after your car". So I told my father, my father
19 left to go to the village because my house was rather
20 isolated, then he came back and said "give me the keys",
21 so I sent my older son to Podorasac to find Sefik,
22 because he had already left. Then Sefik Piria came in a
23 car and two other people in uniform, I do not know
24 them. Then I went to the village and we gave the keys
25 to Agan and Asko Sultan and some others whom I do not
2 I gave the keys up and he said, "you are
3 mistreating us and we are expecting the Chetniks to kill
4 us any moment". I said, "there are no Chetniks here"
5 and then Agan said "tomorrow you are going to Celebici"
6 and in fact on June 15th, I was at home, I was on my way
7 to the cafe to meet Piria Sefik in Podorasac and my
8 older son came after me and said, "daddy, Agan said that
9 you had to report to the playground in Podorasac to make
10 a statement" and I went there to the sports ground.
11 I saw that there were already quite a number of people
12 who had got there from the village and Spago came and he
13 said that I had to make a statement about the car, that
14 the car was for their needs and, of course, I signed
15 that. Then he said "you go over there to that truck",
16 there were other people from my village there, and then
17 as they registered us, so we climbed into the truck and
18 when we had all got on, they drove us off to Celebici.
19 Q. Can you say approximately how many people were in this
20 truck who went to Celebici?
21 A. I think 60, 64.
22 Q. Were you told why you were being arrested?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Approximately at what time did you arrive at Celebici
25 that 15th June?
1 A. We arrived maybe about 11.30 or 12.00, somewhere around
3 Q. You mean 11.30 am or pm?
4 A. Am, in the morning.
5 Q. Did the truck stop inside the camp or at the entrance of
6 the camp?
7 A. Inside the camp, in front of the command.
8 Q. Would you now tell the court in detail what happened to
9 you right after your arrival in Celebici?
10 A. When we got there the truck stopped. They took off the
11 canvass, we came out and as we came out, we were ordered
12 to raise our hands behind our heads and to line up
13 against the wall. They fired over our heads with bursts
14 of fire, and we stood there for a time, and then they
15 said we should take two steps backwards. We did, and
16 then we were supposed to empty our pockets, whatever we
17 had. Some people had driving licences, IDs, some had
18 money, our shoe laces, our belts and then again the
19 orders came that we had to line up against the wall
20 again, so we did.
21 Then the order was "the first seven should follow
22 me". I was in that group, and then they took us to some
23 manholes. They opened a manhole --
24 Q. Wait just a moment please, Mr. Draganic. Before going to
25 this other part of the camp, let us focus on this lining
1 up against the wall. Was that the wall near the
2 entrance, near the command building?
3 A. Yes, there was a concrete wall about three metres high
4 between the command building and in the direction of the
6 Q. Did you have to line up against the wall facing the
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You mean all 60 or 64 of you?
10 A. Yes, all of us.
11 Q. You were talking about shots being fired above your
12 heads; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Were these shots fired against the wall?
15 A. No, not at the wall, higher up. There was earth or sand
16 or whatever there was above us.
17 Q. So the shots reached the grass or sand over the wall.
18 How could you realise that?
19 A. I do not know what to say. It was terrible.
20 Q. I mean, how do you know that the shots were fired
21 against the grass and the sand over the wall?
22 A. Because the earth and the sand would fall on our heads.
23 Q. Could you see or in any way realise who were the people
24 who were shooting over your heads?
25 A. Believe me, I could not see that, nor do I know, nor did
1 I dare turn around.
2 Q. So you do not have any idea how many people were there?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did these people shooting say anything while doing that?
5 A. They were saying something, but believe me, I cannot
6 remember exactly what they were saying. I do not know,
7 they were saying something, but what they were saying,
8 I do not know.
9 Q. Could you say approximately how many shots were fired on
10 this occasion over your head?
11 A. I do not know, several bursts, there were bursts of
13 Q. Mr. Draganic, how long did you remain lined up against
14 the wall?
15 A. Maybe half an hour, an hour, I do not know. It seemed
16 to me to be a long time. How long it was exactly I do
17 not know.
18 Q. You said somebody took your valuables and documents from
19 you. Did you ever get your property back after that?
20 A. No, I did not. I do not know about the others, but
21 I did not.
22 Q. Right. Now you can go ahead in your account, if you
23 can, what happened to you right after that.
24 A. After that, they took us to the manholes and the seven
25 of us, we entered this manhole. It was about 4.5 metres
1 deep, maybe it was 1 metre something wide. There was a
2 large valve and tubes at the bottom and we spent the day
3 there until 7.00 at night. Then there was somebody
4 called Danilo Zelenovic and Mirko Zivak, they were
5 elderly men and they were suffering from asthma and they
6 were crying out. Then one of the guards said, I do not
7 know who he was, he said "I would let you go but I dare
8 not". Then eventually they did release Danilo Zelenovic
9 and Mirko and they were outside and we spent time there
10 until 7.00 at night. Then we were ordered out of the
11 manholes --
12 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draganic. Would you please slow down when
13 you give us your account and let us stop for a moment to
14 this incident of this manhole. Can you describe in more
15 detail the manhole where you were put in?
16 A. I just said that the manhole was about 4 to 4.5 metres
17 deep and maybe 1 metre and something wide. At the
18 bottom of it there were large pipes and a valve with a
19 wheel to turn it. We spent the time from 12.00 or 1.00
20 until 7.00 at night. There were steps also, iron steps
21 and there was an iron lid on top.
22 Q. How was this lid? Was that a round lid or a square lid,
23 a metal lid or what?
24 A. It was a metal square lid.
25 MR. TURONE: You remember that when you were interviewed by
1 an OTP investigator you made a drawing of this manhole.
2 May I ask this drawing be marked for identification,
3 I think the number is 170, Exhibit 170 for the
4 Prosecution. May I ask this exhibit be marked and shown
5 to the witness for identification? We have copies for
6 your Honours, Defence lawyers. Defence lawyers have
7 this document already.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be 170 and 171 were the
9 documents admitted just before the break, so this is
11 MR. TURONE: I am sorry. Would you please put the drawing on
12 the ELMO so it might be seen by everybody? Thank you
13 very much. Mr. Draganic, could you please look at this
14 drawing. Do you recognise it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What is that?
17 A. It is the shaft or the manhole, the one I was telling
18 you about.
19 Q. How many prisoners with you were put in this manhole?
20 A. Me and another six.
21 Q. Which position could you all maintain inside the
22 manhole? Were you put one above the other or all
23 together at the bottom?
24 A. We were at the bottom and one of us was sitting on the
1 Q. How could you all fit in this manhole?
2 A. Just like that, we were forced to, we had no choice.
3 MR. TURONE: First of all I would like to tender this
4 Exhibit 172 for admission, your Honour.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any objection?
6 MS. McMURREY: We have no objections to its admission, your
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The sketch of the manhole is admitted
9 as Exhibit 172.
10 MR. TURONE: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Draganic, was the
11 lid of the manhole closed over you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you breathe normally inside the manhole?
14 A. We managed because the lid did not fit too well, there
15 was some opening, it did not fit tight, so we did have
17 Q. Could you hear voices coming from outside during the
18 time you remained in the manhole?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Can you give us some detail of the voices you heard on
21 that occasion?
22 A. I heard Zelenovic Slobodan and his father was in another
23 manhole and Zeljko Zivak, they were calling for help,
24 saying their fathers were choking, they had heart
25 problems and they had asthma and they were crying for
1 help, and later on they took them out of the manhole.
2 Q. Do you mean it was another manhole right in the nearby,
3 close to yours?
4 A. I think there were two or three other manholes. I do
5 not know exactly, but there were several and they were
6 in the manholes because we could hear them. When we
7 came out, when we were ordered to come out, we all came
8 out and we saw the others nearby.
9 Q. When you were put into the manhole, did you see whether
10 there were other manholes in the same area?
11 A. As far as I can recall, I did see two and the third one
12 was the one I was in. I do not know for certain because
13 I did not dare look, maybe there were more.
14 Q. As far as I could observe, did all the manholes in that
15 area have the same characteristics as yours?
16 MR. MORAN: Judge, I will object to that question.
17 A. I do not know, maybe they were larger manholes. They
18 were probably larger because there were more people in
19 them. They were probably larger. Whether they were
20 used for the same purpose, I do not know. That I cannot
22 MR. TURONE: All right, thank you. Mr. Draganic, when you got
23 out from your manhole could you recognise any of the
24 guards being there, if any?
25 A. Then I saw Mr. Delic, him only. I did not really work
1 there and I did not know the people there. That was the
2 first time I saw that. I did not really know until
3 then, and the others I did not know.
4 Q. You say Mr. Delic, do you know also the first name of
6 A. Hazim Delic.
7 Q. What happened to you right after that?
8 A. After I left the manhole we were lined up one after the
9 other with our hands above our heads and they took us to
10 hangar number 6 and we were leaning against the hangar,
11 and then groups of five were taken inside the hangar and
12 we were told where to sit and then we went into the
13 hangar. I was sitting on concrete, we did not have
14 anything else. We were sitting on concrete --
15 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draganic. Who told you where to sit?
16 A. Delic, Mr. Delic.
17 Q. How did you know that his name was Hazim Delic?
18 A. I heard it.
19 Q. Mr. Draganic, I would like you to give a look to the
20 model you see in front of you. You can stand up if you
21 wish to look at that better, and just tell us if you
22 recognise this model.
23 A. Yes, I do recognise it. I recognise it.
24 Q. If I may ask the usher to provide the witness with
25 something to point at details. I would like you to
1 point at some details you can specifically recognise,
2 the entrance, the wall, whatever you have been talking
3 about. If you are comfortable, you can turn around the
4 model to see better the model.
5 A. This is the entrance to the camp, the gate. This is the
6 command, this was the infirmary, number 22, that is what
7 they called it and this is number 6, this is where we
9 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, the witness is far from the
10 microphone, the interpreter can hardly hear him.
11 MR. TURONE: Mr. Draganic, could you please stand maybe at the
12 side of the model with the microphone directed in your
13 direction, so that everybody can hear you better. Could
14 you tell us the position of the wall you have been
15 talking about?
16 A. It is this wall (indicates), this wall.
17 Q. Could you find in the model the position of the manhole
18 and the manholes you have been talking about?
19 A. I think that the manholes are these things here, if
20 these are the manholes, those are the ones (indicates).
21 Q. All right, thank you. I think you can sit down. Thank
22 you very much.
23 A. You are welcome.
24 Q. Approximately how many prisoners did you observe being
25 in hangar 6 when you first arrived in the hangar?
1 A. There were -- I do not really know how many, perhaps
2 over 200, 250, I really do not know for sure. I do not
3 know how many.
4 Q. Did the number of prisoners in hangar 6 have any
5 variation during your stay there?
6 A. I was there for a short time, I was there for two and
7 a half months, and during that time, there was almost
8 always full. Later they moved some to the sports hall
9 in Konjic and later I left, I was released to go home
10 and I do not know how many were left at the time, and
11 how many were there later after I left.
12 Q. Can you please describe this hangar number 6, describe
13 its physical characteristics, how it was done?
14 A. The hangar number 6 was a military facility, garages of
15 a kind. We sat in the hangar in four lines, and on the
16 sides as well. I was in the third line from the door
17 and I was the first one in the line, and at the entrance
18 to hangar number 6, there was a bar along the hangar,
19 I think it was used for water, for sewerage.
20 Q. May I ask that the witness be provided with the
21 photocopy of Prosecution exhibit number 1, page 7, which
22 is a map? Can that be placed on the ELMO, please? If
23 that might be also marked for identification, please.
24 We have copies here available for this. Reason.
25 (Handed). Thank you very much. Mr. Draganic, do you
1 recognise this map?
2 A. Well that is --
3 Q. What is it?
4 A. That is the map of the hangar.
5 Q. Did every prisoner have a given position inside hangar
6 6; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you indicate the door of the hangar on the map?
9 A. This is the door (indicates).
10 Q. Using this map, can you please show to the court where
11 the prisoners were distributed in hangar 6; how were
12 their positions organised inside the hangar?
13 A. The --
14 Q. Please use the map on your right, and indicate on the
15 map on your right?
16 A. This is the door, the entrance and along here. That was
17 the first row, the prisoners were sitting here, the
18 second row was from here, the third row also here and
19 this was the fourth row along the wall, and there was
20 also a row here and from here to here (indicates) and
21 between the rows there was a passage.
22 Q. You were talking about something with water. Could you
23 indicate the position of this?
24 A. It was about here all along, there was a canal, a ditch
25 with bars.
1 Q. Did you personally maintain the same position during the
2 whole period you spent in hangar 6?
3 A. My place was later changed by Delic, the first row, when
4 the other people went to the sports hall about ten days
5 before I was released to go home. Before that I had
6 been in the same place throughout.
7 Q. May I ask the usher to provide the witness with a pen or
8 pencil in order to mark his positions, the witness's
9 positions inside the hangar on this map, please? So,
10 Mr. Draganic, I would like you to mark with an X your
11 first position inside the hangar with the pen.
12 A. (Witness marks map).
13 Q. That was the position you maintained until ten days
14 before leaving?
15 A. That is where I was when I arrived, yes.
16 Q. Your second position, can you also mark your second
18 A. (Witness marks map).
19 Q. Could you put number 1 near the first mark and number 2
20 near the second mark, please?
21 A. (Witness marks map).
22 MR. TURONE: Thank you. Your Honour, may I ask the witness
23 to keep this map in front of him, because we might have
24 other marks to add to this same exhibit during the
1 How long did you stay in hangar 6 in all?
2 A. From 15th June until 30th August 1992.
3 Q. How were the conditions of life in hangar number 6?
4 A. The conditions were terrible, there were no conditions.
5 We could not bathe for about a month, there was a lot of
6 dust, it was very hot. The hangar was made of tin and
7 there were -- you could not call those conditions.
8 Q. How was the food supply?
9 A. Very poor. At first, we used to receive 100 gramme pate
10 for nine people and one loaf of bread per 13 people, and
11 later we were allowed to receive food brought by our
12 families, after about a month, so that was a bit better.
13 Q. Were there any occasions when you remained without food
14 for the entire day?
15 A. Yes, there were.
16 Q. One occasion or more than one?
17 A. There were several occasions.
18 Q. How was the drinking water supply?
19 A. Sometimes we had it, sometimes we did not, but we mainly
20 had it.
21 Q. Can you describe the toilet facilities, if any? How
22 could you relieve yourself?
23 A. There was a hole dug behind the hangar and there were
24 planks put over it and that is where we could relieve
25 ourselves and we had nothing else.
1 Q. Could you describe the sleeping facilities? How did you
3 A. We slept on whatever we had, a blouse, some people later
4 received blankets from their homes, sweaters, but we
5 mainly slept on the concrete. We did not have beds.
6 Q. So you said that you were put in hangar 6 the same day
7 of your arrival, June 15th. It was after getting out of
8 the manhole, about what time?
9 A. 7.00 in the evening.
10 Q. Can you say what happened in the next few hours and in
11 the next day?
12 A. In the next few hours after we were brought to the
13 hangar, it was quiet that night, nothing happened, and
14 the next day, on 16th June, they brought Scepo Gotovac.
15 I think Mr. Delic asked, he was carrying a paper, he
16 asked, "do you know such and such", it was two people
17 and he said he did know them and he said "do you
18 remember, you killed them here in 1942", I do not know
19 which year and he said he did not. Then they started
20 beating him --
21 Q. Excuse me. When you say they started beating, who do
22 you mean they?
23 A. I think it was Mr. Delic and Zenga. They were beating
24 him and there were another two, but them I did not know,
25 I did not know their names.
1 Q. Can you say at about what time of the day did this
3 A. It happened on 16th June, perhaps around 1.30, 2.00 in
4 the afternoon.
5 Q. Did this beating take place inside the hangar?
6 A. Yes, they were beating him inside and then they took him
7 outdoors and later, he was unable -- I mean he had been
8 beaten and then Delic said, or Zenga, I do not know
9 exactly, he said that two people should come and carry
10 him inside and they carried him into the hangar and then
11 Zenga put an SDS badge on his forehead. He was there
12 and in the evening they came back again. They took him
13 outside and that was when he was beaten outside. Before
14 that, Zenga came before the evening, he took off the SDS
15 badge from his forehead and he asked us, "do you know
16 what this is, what kind of a sign this is?" We kept
17 quiet, we did not say anything --
18 Q. Excuse me for a moment, Mr. Draganic. In which position
19 was Gotovac sitting inside the hangar?
20 A. Gotovac was sitting in front of me when he came that
21 day. He was sitting in front of me.
22 Q. Right close to you then?
23 A. Right in front of me, he sat here in front of me
25 Q. You were telling us about Zenga. Who is Zenga?
1 A. Zenga, I know his last name is Landzo. I had not known
2 him before, before then.
3 Q. Which role did he have, if any?
4 A. I do not know what role he had.
5 Q. You said that Gotovac, after being beaten inside the
6 hangar, was brought outside. What did you hear when he
7 was outside?
8 A. We heard blows, we heard that he cried, shouted, moaned.
9 Q. How long did that last?
10 A. It lasted a while, ten, fifteen minutes, an eternity
11 when a man is expecting something, it always takes a
12 very long time. I really do not know exactly how many
13 minutes it was.
14 Q. Do you remember who returned Gotovac into the hangar?
15 A. He was brought in by Todor Zelenovic and Novak
16 Zelenovic, those who were sitting next to the door in
17 the first row. They brought him back in.
18 Q. Did anybody call these two prisoners in order to let
19 them bring back Mr. Gotovac?
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to object, that is
21 asked and answered. He said a while ago he did not know
22 if it was Delic or Zenga.
23 MR. TURONE: I am sorry, maybe I made a mistake.
24 Did Gotovac return to his place close to you?
25 A. On that occasion when he came back, he sat here, in this
1 part (indicates). That is where he sat, next to this
3 Q. You mean when he returned back, he sat --
4 A. He was laying down.
5 Q. What distance from you?
6 A. It was about two or three metres from me.
7 Q. Can you describe his conditions when he came back?
8 A. He was beaten, he could not sit. He was lying down, he
9 was asking for water. We did not have water to give
10 him. There was none.
11 Q. Was that the time when he had something in his forehead?
12 A. Yes, that was at the beginning.
13 Q. Who pinned this badge on his forehead?
14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, that has been asked and
16 A. Zenga.
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour?
18 MR. TURONE: I wanted to be precise with what was that pinned
19 to the forehead.
20 A. It was a badge, a safety pin, I do not know how to call
21 it. Perhaps there is a drawing, I made a sketch of it,
22 I described it.
23 Q. Yes, I am going to show the drawing you made, but can
24 you, before that, describe the badge to the court,
1 A. The badge was round, red, blue and white colour and SDS,
2 there were two Ss and a D in the middle.
3 MR. TURONE: May I ask this drawing be marked for
4 identification and then shown to the witness?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Tell me, what is this supposed to
6 demonstrate? Is it that it is the like of a thing that
7 was placed on his forehead, or what is it really meant
8 to demonstrate?
9 MR. TURONE: That the witness was close enough to describe
10 the object who was pinned at the forehead.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This is document 173.
12 MR. TURONE: Mr. Draganic, could you look at this drawing? Do
13 you recognise it?
14 A. I do recognise it.
15 Q. What is that?
16 A. It is the SDS badge.
17 MR. TURONE: I tender this drawing, this document for
18 admission, your Honour.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is 123, is it, for identification?
20 MR. TURONE: 173. You said that at a given point Zenga took
21 this badge off. Before that did anybody, any prisoner
22 try to take the badge off from Gotovac's forehead?
23 A. No, nobody tried because nobody dared.
24 Q. Did Mr. Gotovac this time have any blood, specific
25 bruises on his face or head?
1 A. That we did not see. He had a suit on him, he was
2 beaten up, I know, but I did not see any of that.
3 Q. Can you say approximately at what time of the day did
4 Mr. Landzo take the badge off?
5 A. Perhaps 5.00 or 6.00.
6 Q. Did anything else happen to Mr. Gotovac after that?
7 A. After that, in the evening, they took him outside. They
8 took him out and that is where they beat him up.
9 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draganic, can you say who took him
11 A. I think it was the same two, Todor and Novak, because he
12 was unable to go outside himself, and they beat him up
13 and they shoved him back into the hangar and that is
14 where he lay down --
15 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Draganic, why did these two prisoners
16 bring Mr. Gotovac outside? Did anybody tell them to do
18 A. Gotovac was called to go outside and he was unable to go
19 outside himself and I think Zenga or Delic, I do not
20 know which one, he said "the two closest to the door
21 should carry him outside" and since they were in the
22 first row next to the door, they picked him up and
23 carried him outside.
24 MR. TURONE: Just for the record, your Honour, is Exhibit 173
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, it is.
2 MR. TURONE: Thank you very much.
3 When Gotovac was called out and brought out for
4 the second time that day, that was in the evening, do
5 you remember approximately at what time of that evening?
6 A. It was perhaps 9.00, 8.30 in the evening, I do not
7 know. It was dusk, it was not really nighttime. They
8 called him up, again they carried him out. He was
9 unable to go out himself, they beat him up over there
10 and naturally when it was finished he shouted, but then
11 he went silent. He was carried inside again, that is
12 into the hangar and that is where he died.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we can stop here.
14 MR. TURONE: Yes, your Honour.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will continue on Tuesday
16 morning at 11.00 am.
17 (5.30 pm)
18 (Court adjourned until 11.00 am
19 on Tuesday, 9th September 1997)