The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Case No.IT-96-21

  1. 1 Thursday, 16th October 1997

    2 (11.00 am)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

    4 Can we have the appearances, please?

    5 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, my name is Niemann and

    6 I appear with my colleagues Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and

    7 Mr. Khan for the Prosecution.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the appearances for the

    9 Defence, please?

    10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours. I am Edina

    11 Residovic, appearing on behalf of Mr. Zejnil Delalic,

    12 together with my colleague Eugene O'Sullivan, professor

    13 from Canada.

    14 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Zeljko Olujic,

    15 appearing on behalf of Mr. Zdravko Mucic, together with

    16 my colleague, my Michael Greaves, attorney from the

    17 United Kingdom.

    18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours, I am Salih

    19 Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, appearing on behalf of

    20 Mr. Hazim Delic, together with Mr. Thomas Moran, attorney

    21 from Houston, Texas.

    22 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, your Honours, I am John Ackerman

    23 and I appear with Cynthia McMurrey for Mr. Esad Landzo.

    24 Thank you.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Kindly bring the

  2. 1 witness in.

    2 (Witness entered court)

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the witness he is still

    4 on his oath.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: I should like to remind you, sir, that you

    6 are still under oath.

    7 A. Yes.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Ackerman, you can proceed.

    9 WITNESS R (continued)

    10 Cross-examined by MR. ACKERMAN (continued)

    11 Q. Thank you very much, your Honour. Good morning, Mr. R.

    12 A. Good morning.

    13 Q. I trust you had a quiet and restful evening and that you

    14 are refreshed and ready to go forward.

    15 A. Yes, having seen Kusterica's film on the disintegration

    16 of a country, "There once was a country".

    17 Q. So you watched a film last night about Yugoslavia?

    18 A. About the dissolution of Yugoslavia from the standpoint

    19 of the film director Kusterica, as he saw it.

    20 Q. Could I ask the usher to return the exhibit we were

    21 using at the close of testimony yesterday back to the

    22 ELMO, please. Mr. R, I would like you to just look at

    23 the document that has been placed on the ELMO and verify

    24 for the record that it was the same drawing we were

    25 discussing at the close of your testimony yesterday.

  3. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Let me go back a bit and do a bit of clarification with

    3 regard to --

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can continue.

    5 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you. I want to go back a bit and do a

    6 little clarification with regard to this drawing. You

    7 drew this yourself, did you not?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. On 19th October 1995, you had a meeting with Mr. Regis

    10 Abribat, an investigator from the OTP, is that correct?

    11 A. Yes. I do not know the exact date, but I said it was

    12 either October or November 1995, I do not know the exact

    13 date.

    14 Q. Whatever that date was, it was on that date that you

    15 gave him this drawing that you had made of the Celebici

    16 camp, correct?

    17 A. Yes, after I made the statement, the investigator asked

    18 if I could make a drawing of Celebici itself, and on the

    19 basis of my recollection, I made the drawing. Of course

    20 some things differ from reality and from the model, but

    21 that is how it is.

    22 Q. Did you at that time set out to deliberately make that

    23 drawing inaccurate, to try to fool Mr. Abribat or

    24 anything?

    25 A. No, certainly not.

  4. 1 Q. Therefore I take it that you did not tell Mr. Abribat at

    2 that time that you had not done a good job and that this

    3 was an inaccurate drawing and that he should not rely on

    4 it; you did not tell him anything like that, did you?

    5 A. I did not tell him, but let me repeat, the statement

    6 made under -- those circumstances differ considerably

    7 from the circumstances we are talking under today, when

    8 Mr. Abribat asked me about the manholes where people were

    9 put and suffocated and put in water. I roughly

    10 indicated it, but, as I have already said, throughout my

    11 stay in the Celebici camp I was never taken to those

    12 manholes, nor did I pass by them, so I did not go to

    13 that spot where the pump station was, the petrol station

    14 was.

    15 Q. As far as you were concerned, you intended that

    16 Mr. Abribat leave that meeting understanding and

    17 believing that you had made as accurate a drawing as

    18 your memory would permit at that point; is that not

    19 fair?

    20 A. I knew that the court would take measures and find ways

    21 to make a true model. What I drew differs from the

    22 model, so this should be attributed to my own bad

    23 recollection.

    24 Q. I am going to ask you the question again and ask you to

    25 listen very carefully and see if you can answer the

  5. 1 question that I ask. You intended for Mr. Abribat to

    2 leave that meeting believing that you had given him as

    3 accurate a drawing as your memory at that time would

    4 permit; is that a fair statement?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Going back to this drawing, I would like you to look

    7 where on the drawing you have placed building number

    8 22. Do you see that?

    9 A. I do.

    10 Q. Would you say that the model sitting in front of you is

    11 inaccurate with the place where it places building 22?

    12 A. No, the model is quite accurate. It is the drawing that

    13 is inaccurate.

    14 Q. Let me ask you again about the gas station, and

    15 understand that I am asking you about the gas station,

    16 not about any manholes. I have not asked you any

    17 questions about manholes and do not intend to. You told

    18 us yesterday that the gas station is improperly placed

    19 on your drawing because you really did not have any

    20 opportunity to see that gas station, that you just

    21 basically heard about it from others; is that a fair

    22 statement?

    23 A. Yes, that is so.

    24 Q. You also told us yesterday that when you were in hangar

    25 number 6 that you were frequently taken out or allowed

  6. 1 to go out to a latrine behind hangar number 6, early in

    2 your experience with four or five other people and then

    3 in the larger groups at a later time. That is true, is

    4 it not?

    5 A. I think that that was a misinterpretation because I did

    6 not say I went out frequently, but very rarely. If

    7 I spent 99 days in the camp and mentioned two or three

    8 times going out, I do not think one can describe it as

    9 being frequent.

    10 Q. I thought you had told us that there was a daily routine

    11 where groups of you were taken out and given a certain

    12 amount of time to use the latrine and then brought back

    13 in?

    14 A. Yes, as far as the groups are concerned. I said it

    15 happened twice a day, in the morning about 7, 8 or 9,

    16 depending on when Mr. Delic arrived, and in the

    17 afternoon; twice during the day, 40 seconds each time.

    18 I do not know whether that is frequent or infrequent,

    19 twice a day, 40 seconds each time.

    20 Q. But before those larger groups, you went out in smaller

    21 groups and had more time to spend at the latrine,

    22 correct?

    23 A. That was at the beginning, as I said, maybe in the month

    24 of June. Later on, all that was prohibited.

    25 Q. Can you tell us how many days it was that you were in

  7. 1 hangar number 6?

    2 A. I spent somewhere from the beginning of June, as I said

    3 yesterday, that was one week after my arrest, and that

    4 was on 26th May, so that could have been the beginning

    5 of June, until 31st August 1992.

    6 Q. So roughly three months, yes?

    7 A. Yes, June, July and August.

    8 Q. That is roughly 90 days, give or take a few days.

    9 A. Plus the time spent in the tunnel.

    10 Q. I am only talking about hangar 6 now. My question is

    11 directed to the time you were there, and it was roughly

    12 90 days then that you were confined in hangar number 6?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. If you went out to that latrine two times a day, then

    15 over a 90 day period you would have been out at that

    16 latrine perhaps 180 times.

    17 A. What do you mean when you say "there"? What area are

    18 you referring to when you say "there"?

    19 Q. I was talking about the latrine area behind hangar

    20 number 6. If you went out there twice a day for 90

    21 days, that would mean you went to that latrine at least

    22 180 times.

    23 A. Let me repeat again what I have already said. If

    24 necessary, I can show you on the model where we went to

    25 relieve ourselves. As I said yesterday, according to a

  8. 1 procedure that was established and invented by Mr. Delic,

    2 there would be 50 of us standing in line to urinate and

    3 Mr. Delic was walking behind us all the time, flourishing

    4 a baseball bat, and we were waiting to get a blow rather

    5 than to do our business. I do not know how I could look

    6 around to see where is the pump, where is the hangar

    7 where the other people are, all this in 40 seconds.

    8 Q. I will ask you the question again. I thought we had

    9 made an agreement yesterday that you would listen to my

    10 question and attempt to answer it. The only question

    11 that I asked you was, if you were in that hangar 90 days

    12 and went out to the latrine twice a day, you probably

    13 went out to that latrine about 180 times; do you agree

    14 with that or not?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. How is it that in 180 times standing out there at that

    17 latrine you failed to notice that rather large gas

    18 station right across the street?

    19 A. Do you think we were free to look around to see where

    20 things where, where people were? As I said, we were in

    21 line with our heads bowed, without the right to turn

    22 around. There was Mr. Delic behind us, who was always

    23 there with a baseball bat in his hand.

    24 Q. If you were never free to look around and get any idea

    25 of what the camp looked like, why did you make a drawing

  9. 1 for Mr. Abribat of what the camp looked like? Why did

    2 you not just tell Mr. Abribat you had no idea because you

    3 could not ever look around?

    4 A. Because I tried as far as was possible in answer to the

    5 gentleman's question, I do not remember his name, the

    6 investigator's question, to give some kind of a rough

    7 outline of the camp where we were detained. As you see

    8 from the drawing itself, the position of building number

    9 6 and the machine-gun nests were accurately drawn. Those

    10 were the things that I could see.

    11 Q. If you will look at that drawing, you will notice that a

    12 number of notations on there are written in English. Is

    13 that your writing or someone else's?

    14 A. It is my handwriting.

    15 Q. Do you read and write English?

    16 A. Is that important for the investigation in this moment?

    17 Q. The way it works here is I ask the questions and you

    18 give the answers. My question is: do you read and write

    19 English?

    20 A. At this point in time, yes; until the beginning of the

    21 war, no.

    22 Q. Again, if you will look at your drawing, on the

    23 right-hand side, near what would be the entrance to the

    24 camp, you have drawn a couple of buildings up above the

    25 road; do you see the buildings I am referring to?

  10. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Did the person who made this model in front of you fail

    3 to include those buildings in the model?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Having told us that this drawing was your best

    6 recollection at the time of the layout of the camp, how

    7 is it you are able today to tell us that the model

    8 sitting in front of you is accurate? How do you know

    9 that it is accurate?

    10 A. Because the model is in three dimensions and it gives a

    11 much better portrayal of the real situation than an

    12 ordinary drawing. This three dimensional model somehow

    13 refreshes one's memory regarding details forgotten.

    14 Q. So it is your position that when you saw the model it

    15 refreshed your memory and you remembered that the model

    16 is correct and your drawing is wrong?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did anybody tell you that this model was accurate?

    19 A. No, I saw the model for the first time when I sat at

    20 this table.

    21 Q. I guess what I am wondering is if your best memory of

    22 Celebici camp is what was reflected in your drawing, how

    23 on earth can you tell us with that same memory that the

    24 model in front of you is accurate?

    25 MR. TURONE: May I object to Defence lawyer's continuing on

  11. 1 this line of questions. The question was asked and

    2 answered already. The witness said already that the

    3 drawing he did on request of the OTP was imprecise and

    4 I think there is nothing else he might answer on this

    5 line of questions. I think going on in this line of

    6 questions might turn out to be harassment of the

    7 witness, your Honour.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you were merely asking his

    9 opinion, you are asking the opinion of the witness. If

    10 he gives you his opinion you might accept it.

    11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, your Honour, that is correct.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, ask him.

    13 MR. ACKERMAN: Do you remember the question I asked you or

    14 would you like to hear it again?

    15 A. Please ask it again, sir.

    16 Q. I am not going to be able to give you the same words,

    17 but I will do the best I can.

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Back in October 1995 when you drew this map for

    20 Mr. Abribat, it was your best memory of the way the camp

    21 looked, was it not?

    22 A. Yes, but the statement itself was given within a short

    23 period of time. The gentleman did not have much time at

    24 his disposal, nor did I , for that matter, because I was

    25 working. It was all done in haste without giving it any

  12. 1 detailed thought, it was done the way it was and it was

    2 done inaccurately, so let me repeat for the fifth time

    3 that the model is accurate, that the drawing is

    4 inaccurate.

    5 Q. Let me put it this way. If Mr. Abribat had returned to

    6 The Hague and built a nice three dimensional model like

    7 the one you see in front of you based upon the drawing

    8 you gave him, then I suspect when you saw it you would

    9 have told us that was an accurate model; is that a fair

    10 statement?

    11 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object to these hypothetical

    12 questions.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has told you that --

    14 MR. ACKERMAN: I am going to withdraw the question, your

    15 Honour. It is not necessary.

    16 You see some writing up in the left-hand corner of

    17 your drawing; do you see that?

    18 A. Yes, though the photocopy is not very clear, so I cannot

    19 exactly see what it says.

    20 Q. Is that your writing?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Can you read it?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Would you do that for me?

    25 A. The word is probably, "handed in to Regis Abribat,

  13. 1 investigator of the International Tribunal in The Hague

    2 for war criminals committed in the territory of the

    3 former Yugoslavia".

    4 Q. Then that would be your signature?

    5 A. Yes. Just a moment, please, sir. Where do you see my

    6 signature?

    7 Q. I am not sure I do.

    8 MR. TURONE: There is no signature, otherwise we would not

    9 allow it to be put on the ELMO.

    10 MR. ACKERMAN: It says "Yugoslavia", what I thought was your

    11 signature is apparently "Yugoslavia".

    12 I want to talk to you about something else now.

    13 A. I am at your disposal.

    14 Q. You were telling us yesterday about the food that you

    15 received in hangar number 6, correct?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You told us that among the foods that you received, you

    18 got soup.

    19 A. I said that occasionally, very rarely, we did get soup

    20 as well.

    21 Q. What you told us about that soup was that when you got

    22 it, it was two or three days old.

    23 A. Yes, mostly.

    24 Q. What special skills or powers do you have that enable

    25 you to judge the age of soup?

  14. 1 A. It is a very simple power; if you ate that soup and it

    2 was a little sour we would get diarrhoea and we could

    3 not go out, because Mr. Delic and the other guards would

    4 not let us go out, so that is a very simple method to

    5 conclude how the soup is old. It is a very simple

    6 method.

    7 Q. How does that method get you to the precision of two or

    8 three days? Why could it not be a week or one day?

    9 A. It could have been a week, why not. In any case, it was

    10 not soup that was fit for eating. For soup that

    11 produces diarrhoea, does it matter whether it is two

    12 days old or a week old, especially if you are not given

    13 any medical treatment afterwards.

    14 Q. No, it really does not matter, except when you tell this

    15 court, this Tribunal, that the soup was two or three

    16 days old yesterday and then tell us today that it could

    17 have been a week old, what that indicates to this

    18 Tribunal is you are just guessing about that.

    19 A. I do not know, you asked me what my visionary abilities

    20 were to tell how old the soup was. I am not a

    21 visionary. If I had been a visionary, I would not have

    22 ended up in the camp, I would have been somewhere else

    23 if I had known what was going to happen.

    24 Q. I think you also told us yesterday that, as a general

    25 rule, the only food that you would get beyond some

  15. 1 occasional soup was five grammes of bread a day.

    2 A. I never mentioned five grammes, I just, as far as

    3 I remember -- again, to use the same sentence that you

    4 used, I will not be able to repeat what I said in the

    5 same words -- I said that the bread was made from mouldy

    6 flour, so it had a very unpleasant taste.

    7 Q. Excuse me. You remember the question that I just asked

    8 you?

    9 A. You asked me whether I remembered that I said we were

    10 given five grammes of bread. I did not say five

    11 grammes, so allow me to repeat what I said. It was made

    12 from very -- please allow me to finish the answer to

    13 your question. Be kind enough to hear me out.

    14 Q. When was it that I asked you what the bread was made out

    15 of?

    16 A. You did not ask me that, but you asked me whether it was

    17 correct that I had said that we received five grammes of

    18 bread, and I never mentioned yesterday five grammes.

    19 I just said that the loaf was divided up into 14, 15,

    20 16, 18 pieces. I never mentioned five grammes.

    21 Q. But you did tell us yesterday about the quality of that

    22 bread, did you not?

    23 A. I did yesterday, I started again today and you

    24 interrupted me, so I do not know whether you are asking

    25 me questions and not allowing me to answer them.

  16. 1 Q. Did you feel a need to repeat the quality of that bread

    2 today even though not asked about it because you believe

    3 that those of us sitting here in the courtroom are not

    4 capable of hearing what you are saying and understanding

    5 it and that you need to say it over and over?

    6 MR. TURONE: I object to this arguing between the Defence

    7 lawyer and the witness, your Honour.

    8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is cross-examination, this

    9 is not arguing. One judge once told me on

    10 cross-examination you are supposed to argue with the

    11 witness. I think it was an appropriate question.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the argument is in the nature of a

    13 question, then it is acceptable.

    14 MR. ACKERMAN: And it was.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So he can answer it.

    16 A. Please repeat your question, sir.

    17 MR. ACKERMAN: My question was: do you think those of us here

    18 are incapable of hearing and understanding what you are

    19 saying so that you have to repeat it over and over, even

    20 if not asked?

    21 A. No, not at all, sir.

    22 Q. Thank you. Since you arrived here in The Hague for the

    23 purpose of appearing before this Tribunal, could you

    24 tell us with whom you have discussed your memory of what

    25 happened at Celebici?

  17. 1 A. I discussed it with Mr. Prosecutor.

    2 Q. That would be Mr. Turone?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. How much time did you spend discussing it with

    5 Mr. Turone?

    6 A. I think it was four and a half to five hours.

    7 Q. What day would that have been?

    8 A. I think this was last Sunday.

    9 Q. Have you had any further discussions with Mr. Turone

    10 about these matters since that date?

    11 A. Yes, I think we continued the following day on Monday,

    12 but I am not sure for how long. It was short.

    13 Q. How about yesterday evening, did you have any

    14 discussions with Mr. Turone yesterday evening about your

    15 testimony?

    16 A. Yesterday evening?

    17 Q. Yes.

    18 A. No, not only did I not discuss it with Mr. Turone, but

    19 with no one. I just told you how I spent my evening.

    20 Q. How about this morning? Did you have any discussion

    21 with Mr. Turone this morning about these matters?

    22 A. No, I see Mr. Turone for the first time now as I sat down

    23 here.

    24 Q. How about with Witness J? Did you have discussions with

    25 Witness J about your experiences in Celebici since you

  18. 1 have been here in The Hague?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. How is it that you know who Witness J is if you had not

    4 had a discussion with him about his testimony in this

    5 case?

    6 A. Because I know that there was only one other person who

    7 was here during my stay, and I know his identity, I know

    8 who he is.

    9 Q. Please do not say who he is, okay?

    10 A. No, I am not going to.

    11 Q. You certainly had meetings with Witness J during the

    12 time he was here in The Hague and you were here in

    13 The Hague, did you not?

    14 A. Yes, we went to dinner together. However, the ladies,

    15 that is the staff that is taking care of the security

    16 arrangements here, they prevented us from discussing

    17 anything relating to the trial and what we discussed was

    18 potential business, so our discussions did not relate to

    19 the testimony or The Hague. And I have to add that the

    20 staff would always stop conversation, saying that this

    21 could harm the whole procedure or the whole trial.

    22 Q. So if they had to stop conversation, it means there was

    23 some going on for them to stop, does it not?

    24 A. We would not start, but we would have -- they did it as

    25 an introductory remark, not to discuss issues relating

  19. 1 to the trial, things that were going on in the

    2 courtroom, so this was a warning of sorts, or a caution.

    3 Q. I think we might all be somewhat baffled by your

    4 statement that they would stop you and say you should

    5 not be discussing these matters and then tell us you

    6 were not discussing these matters. There would be no

    7 occasion for them to stop you if you never had such

    8 discussion, would there?

    9 A. I think that the way you phrase your question is

    10 contradictory in itself. As I said, when we sat down to

    11 dinner, we would be told, "please do not discuss matters

    12 that transpired in the courtroom today", so we did not.

    13 Q. I guess you are telling us they were with you at dinner?

    14 A. Yes, the whole time.

    15 Q. Were they with you at breakfast yesterday morning?

    16 A. Yes, at breakfast, lunch and dinner, if I need to say

    17 that, and the entire way from the hotel room to the,

    18 whatever I should call it, the dining area or the

    19 restaurant.

    20 Q. Any time you had occasion to be with Witness J then

    21 these persons were present?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Okay. I take it that you take very seriously this

    24 appearance before the International Tribunal and your

    25 testimony here, do you not?

  20. 1 A. How to answer this question? I do not know how you want

    2 me to answer it.

    3 Q. You do not see it as a situation of great fun and

    4 merriment and a situation in which it is irrelevant

    5 whether your testimony is accurate or not, do you?

    6 A. I am also not sure about this question. Can you clarify

    7 it for me, please? Can you simplify it?

    8 Q. Sure. You want your testimony before this International

    9 Tribunal to be as accurate as you can make it, correct?

    10 A. By all means.

    11 Q. You agreed with me yesterday that your memory of the

    12 events of Celebici was better as one goes back in time,

    13 so that fairly immediately after it your memory would

    14 have been better than it would be now, five years later,

    15 correct?

    16 A. I said that that is a normal process, that people

    17 forget, but I also said that some events like deaths and

    18 beatings, the mistreatments that we were subjected to,

    19 have a strong impact, they are significant and those

    20 images of death remain there forever.

    21 Q. There have been occasions in the past, have there not,

    22 when your memory of events was committed to writing?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Being both an intelligent man and a man who is

    25 interested in giving accurate testimony before this

  21. 1 Tribunal, you carefully reviewed all those prior written

    2 representations of your memory of Celebici?

    3 A. As far as the first part of your statement is, regarding

    4 my intelligence, I would not like to comment on that,

    5 but as far as the second part, my answer is yes, with

    6 the solemn declaration in front of me, and as far as the

    7 third part, I did give written statements. I just want

    8 to add regarding this third part and you said that

    9 yourself, you cannot repeat the same phrase the same

    10 way. If I were able to do that, I would be a computer,

    11 not a human being.

    12 Q. I think my question was probably hopelessly confusing,

    13 let me try it again.

    14 A. I gave you a three part answer, so if you want to

    15 simplify the question, please go ahead.

    16 Q. That is my intent. The major issue I am interested in

    17 is, you carefully reviewed all these prior written

    18 representations of your memory so that you could be as

    19 accurate as possible in front of this Tribunal, correct?

    20 A. Here in The Hague, this was fairly superficial, it took

    21 about ten minutes. However, I have given multiple

    22 statements and maybe they differ based on what the

    23 investigators or the people who were asking questions

    24 were emphasising, what they wanted to focus on. So it

    25 depends on the occasion, whether it was literary or

  22. 1 investigative, or whether it was depending on what

    2 methods were used for torture or things like that.

    3 Q. So is it your position that you have not carefully

    4 reviewed prior written statements?

    5 A. Not carefully, I said that.

    6 Q. Understanding that your prior memory may have been more

    7 accurate, you did not think it was important to refresh

    8 today's memory with that more accurate memory of the

    9 past?

    10 A. I think that the question is a bit equivocal. Can you

    11 phrase it in simpler terms?

    12 Q. First you have told us that your memory was better as we

    13 go back in time, and that that memory has been recorded

    14 in statements, and then you have told us that in

    15 preparation to give accurate testimony to this Tribunal,

    16 you did not bother to carefully review those

    17 statements. I believe that is your position; am

    18 I correct?

    19 A. Yes, as I said, the majority of these statements, with

    20 the exception of one that I have given to Mr. Regis, were

    21 not given for The Hague Tribunal, they were given on

    22 different occasions, and at different times, and it is

    23 possible that in some parts, they differ from one

    24 another. It is probable and it is normal that they

    25 should differ, and it is dependent on the purpose of it

  23. 1 being given.

    2 Q. So did you deliberately put inaccuracies in those

    3 statements prior to the one you gave the OTP?

    4 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.

    5 MR. ACKERMAN: Never been asked, your Honour.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: About statements, is it?

    7 MR. ACKERMAN: I am sorry?

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has never answered, that I hear,

    9 deliberately giving wrong answers.

    10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have never asked it and he has never

    11 answered it.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can answer it. Did you

    13 deliberately give wrong answers?

    14 A. Go ahead, sir, restate your question, please.

    15 MR. ACKERMAN: In the statements you did prior to the OTP

    16 statement, did you deliberately give wrong information

    17 in those statements?

    18 A. No. Could I please ask how you qualify this deliberate

    19 wrong testimony, because they were never testimonies,

    20 they were not statements given in court, they were given

    21 to different either committees or bodies that were

    22 collecting evidence or documentation on Celebici and, as

    23 I said, it is impossible to give the same exact

    24 statement twice. Then we would be machines who repeat

    25 the same thing. Then you could just make one recording

  24. 1 of it and replay it, you need not have witnesses

    2 testifying then.

    3 Q. You just told us you had never given a statement to a

    4 court before, is that true?

    5 A. That is correct, this is my first testimony before a

    6 Tribunal, any Tribunal in any country at any time,

    7 because my whole life in fact I tried not to be involved

    8 in anything that would bring me in conflict with law.

    9 Q. Did you not on 2nd March 1994 give a statement to an

    10 investigating judge of the District Court in Belgrade?

    11 A. That is right, but that was not a trial, this was

    12 questioning for their own needs so this was just a

    13 meeting with a judge and conversation, similar to what

    14 occurred with Mr. Regis.

    15 Q. So because this was --

    16 A. In other words, this was not a trial, it was gathering

    17 of information, and if you consider the statement I gave

    18 to Mr. Regis part of a trial, then that other statement

    19 was that too.

    20 Q. So since this statement to the District Court in

    21 Belgrade was not a trial, you did not feel any necessity

    22 of making your statement accurate, is that what you are

    23 trying to tell us?

    24 A. What I want to say is not only was it -- it was not a

    25 trial, this was gathering of information, collection of

  25. 1 evidence. If what I had given to Mr. Regis was a trial,

    2 then that too was a trial; in other words there was a

    3 judge who was gathering evidence, and as I said, I have

    4 given different statements at different times for

    5 different purposes.

    6 Q. Okay. You have not answered the question so let me ask

    7 it again. Because the statement you made to the

    8 District Court in Belgrade was not a trial, did you feel

    9 that you had no obligation to tell the truth or to be

    10 accurate in your testimony?

    11 A. I absolutely said the truth and I was accurate as much

    12 as I could be and I was answering the questions asked of

    13 me by the judge, which considered legal matters from his

    14 point of view on what happened in Celebici.

    15 Q. So you were answering those questions to the best of

    16 your memory at that time, correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I am sure you will agree with me that when we write down

    19 things we want to remember it is very helpful to go back

    20 and review them, to refresh our memory?

    21 A. Of course.

    22 Q. How many written statements have you given regarding

    23 your experiences in Celebici? How many times have

    24 accounts that you have given been reduced to writing?

    25 A. I could not tell exactly, but I think you may have all

  26. 1 these statements in front of you and you can compare

    2 them. I do not know how many times. There were various

    3 occasions at different times, different people.

    4 Q. Let me just do that then. I have in my possession a

    5 statement dated 18th February 1993, given to the Serbian

    6 Counsel Information Centre; do you remember that one?

    7 A. As I stated, I remember some of the statements, that is

    8 most of the places and most of the statements. Now what

    9 is contained within each individual statement is

    10 dependent on what people were interested in, the

    11 political aspects, the number of victims, the number of

    12 murders, even literary aspects.

    13 Q. You must think that we are incapable of hearing and

    14 understanding your answers because you keep giving the

    15 same ones over and over. Let me ask the question

    16 again. On 18th February 1993 -- I have a statement that

    17 you gave to the Serbian Counsel Information Centre; do

    18 you remember giving that statement?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Was that the first statement that you recall giving

    21 regarding your experiences in Celebici?

    22 A. I do not know if it was the first but since you have all

    23 the statements, you can compare them and see if it was

    24 the first. I really do not know if it was the first.

    25 Q. Why did you make that statement?

  27. 1 A. I do not understand the question, "why did I make the

    2 statement". How do you mean, "why did I give the

    3 statement"?

    4 Q. Did someone ask you to do it?

    5 A. Yes, it was asked and I accepted it gladly.

    6 Q. Do you remember who it was that asked you to do that?

    7 A. I do not recall.

    8 Q. Where were you, did somebody call you or did somebody

    9 come to where you were? How did it happen that you were

    10 called upon to make that statement?

    11 A. I do not remember the circumstances prior to the giving

    12 of the statement.

    13 Q. So your memory of what happened four years ago is rather

    14 poor, correct?

    15 A. I did not consider the giving of the statement very

    16 significant and so I did not consider it a very

    17 important thing and so my memory of it is not very

    18 strong.

    19 Q. Let me ask you if you have given so many statements you

    20 cannot remember today how many you have given?

    21 A. It was not that many statements, but there were multiple

    22 statements.

    23 Q. How many?

    24 A. I do not know, you have them in front of you.

    25 Q. Do you believe that I have all of them?

  28. 1 A. I believe you do have, why not? They are no secret,

    2 they were made publicly.

    3 Q. You believe you made more than five statements?

    4 A. I could not answer that question, I do not know.

    5 Q. Do you believe you made more than four?

    6 A. You are repeating the same, five, four, three, six.

    7 Q. So as you sit there now, you just cannot remember how

    8 many statements you have given, is that a fair

    9 statement?

    10 MR. TURONE: Objection, asked and answered many times

    11 already, thank you.

    12 MR. ACKERMAN: I believe it has been.

    13 If I were to tell you that I have in front of me

    14 six statements, would you then agree that you have given

    15 six statements?

    16 A. I think that this question was already answered and that

    17 I answered it. I do not know the exact number of

    18 answers, I would have to sit down and take a piece of

    19 paper and try to figure out when I have given all the

    20 statements. That would take a lot of time.

    21 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, I object also to this way of

    22 questioning about the number of statements Mr. Ackerman

    23 might have in front of him.

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: You gave a statement to the District Court in

    25 Belgrade on 2nd March 1994; you remember that one?

  29. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Why did you give that statement?

    3 A. I gave that statement because at that time there was

    4 talk that sooner or later there will be a trial for the

    5 murders in Celebici, either at national level or another

    6 one, and then I was invited to give a statement to the

    7 judge. I do not know his name, but I think you have it

    8 in front of you. This was also as gathering of

    9 material, not in the form of a trial.

    10 Q. Who requested that you make that statement?

    11 A. It was requested of me by that court.

    12 Q. So the court contacted you and asked you to come and

    13 give a statement?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. I want to go back for just a moment to your statement to

    16 the Serbian Counsel Information Centre on 18th February

    17 1993. Where did you go to make that statement, do you

    18 remember?

    19 A. I do not remember.

    20 Q. Can you tell us what the Serbian Counsel Information

    21 Centre is?

    22 A. I do not know what it is.

    23 Q. At the time you went there to make the statement, were

    24 there other detainees there who had also been asked to

    25 come and make statements?

  30. 1 A. There were detainees from other camps, from -- not from

    2 Celebici. There were detainees from Mostar and I think

    3 from somewhere in Posavina.

    4 Q. So there were no other Celebici detainees at the time

    5 you made that statement?

    6 A. At that time, no, perhaps during the day or the previous

    7 days or the following days, I do not know about that.

    8 Q. You did not see anyone there that had been a Celebici

    9 detainee?

    10 A. When I was giving my statement, no.

    11 Q. During the time you were at the Serbian Counsel

    12 Information Centre, any time, the day you were there to

    13 give your statement?

    14 MR. TURONE: Objection, asked and answered.

    15 MR. ACKERMAN: Not precisely yet, your Honour. During any of

    16 the time that you were there giving your statement did

    17 you see any other Celebici detainee or talk with any

    18 other Celebici detainee?

    19 A. I did not talk to anyone. Whether any one of the

    20 detainees may have come in and passed by, I do not

    21 know. I do not remember seeing anyone there.

    22 Q. Do you remember seeing Witness J there?

    23 A. Let us make sure who Witness J is so as to avoid any

    24 confusion.

    25 Q. Please do not say the name. A little while ago when

  31. 1 I was talking to you about the person you were having

    2 dinner and breakfast with you here, you knew that was

    3 Witness J; that is the person we are referring to. Was

    4 he there the same day you were to give a statement to

    5 the Serbian Counsel Information Centre?

    6 A. It may have been that same day, but at that moment,

    7 I was the only one making a statement and no one else.

    8 Q. The day you went to the District Court in Belgrade, on

    9 2nd March 1994, were there other Celebici detainees

    10 there at that time to also give statements that day?

    11 A. I think not.

    12 Q. You also gave a statement that we have discussed a

    13 little bit to Mr. Regis Abribat of the Office of the

    14 Prosecutor on 19th October 1995; that is correct, is it

    15 not?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. How was it you happened to give that statement?

    18 A. Certain people called me up by phone, saying that two

    19 gentlemen would be coming to that town, gentlemen who

    20 were collecting evidence for the trial in The Hague, and

    21 that I should come and make a statement as one of the

    22 detainees of the Celebici camp.

    23 Q. So that is how it came about and you did in fact give

    24 Mr. Regis Abribat a statement; correct?

    25 A. Yes.

  32. 1 Q. Mr. Abribat was careful to make certain that that

    2 statement was translated to you in Serbo-Croatian so

    3 there was no question about whether you understood what

    4 you were saying and believed what you were saying?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Let me go back to kind of where we began. In your

    7 review of -- I want to ask you a different question.

    8 I have now talked with you about three

    9 statements. Do you, as you sit here today, remember any

    10 other statements that you have given with regard to your

    11 Celebici experiences?

    12 A. I do remember some statements.

    13 Q. Can you tell us what those statements were and to whom

    14 they were given?

    15 A. Those statements were given on different occasions and

    16 to different commissions that were collecting different

    17 data; in the case of The Hague Tribunal, to Mr. Regis.

    18 Q. You may have misunderstood my question. My question is:

    19 other than the three statements that I have discussed

    20 with you, where else did you make statements regarding

    21 your experiences in Celebici?

    22 A. As I was saying, I cannot exactly recall the names of

    23 those organisations, because there were quite a number

    24 of them. Some were private, some were state and

    25 non-governmental that wanted to learn the truth or at

  33. 1 least some of the facts regarding what had happened at

    2 the Celebici camp.

    3 Q. Let us see if you can remember one of them. Just tell

    4 me one.

    5 A. Yes, I remember a statement I made to the Serbian

    6 Information Centre or the Information Centre of the

    7 Serbian Assembly or SABOR. I do not recall the exact

    8 name of the institution.

    9 Q. That would be different from the one we have already

    10 talked about of 18th February 1993?

    11 A. I think it is not.

    12 Q. Okay, let us try again. Tell me the name of one

    13 statement that you have given that we have not talked

    14 about today.

    15 A. I have already told you.

    16 Q. Beyond the three that we have discussed today, can you

    17 tell me one time that you gave a statement to someone

    18 else and who that was. That is what I am trying to find

    19 out.

    20 A. I cannot remember, I cannot tell you.

    21 Q. You suggested in some of your prior answers that you may

    22 have given some statements for literary purposes. Does

    23 that help you remember?

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is better to put the

    25 question straight to him, what you want him to answer.

  34. 1 This type of roving question does not get one anywhere.

    2 MR. ACKERMAN: Did you give any statements to anyone for

    3 literary purposes?

    4 A. I do not know how to explain that, "for literary

    5 purposes". Could you clarify that a little bit? What

    6 do you mean when you say "a statement for literary

    7 purposes"? Could you simplify the question a little?

    8 Q. I am basically quoting an answer you gave to an earlier

    9 question about the accuracy of your statements. You

    10 said they were given for different purposes, some of

    11 them literary. Let me ask you what you meant when you

    12 said that.

    13 A. Those were not statements, in the sense of any written

    14 texts. Those were rather conversations with people,

    15 literary people, men of letters, who wanted to hear

    16 about those experiences, and to have them in mind.

    17 Q. Tell us the name, please, of one of those persons?

    18 A. I do not know, I cannot remember.

    19 Q. Not even one?

    20 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.

    21 MR. ACKERMAN: Can you even tell us the name of one of those

    22 people that you talked to, even one?

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he does not remember.

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: All right. Do you know if any of those people

    25 have written any papers or books or anything that

  35. 1 contained things that you told them?

    2 A. I do not know, I could not tell you anything definite

    3 about that.

    4 Q. Do you recall seeing any written or published works or

    5 anything like that that contained your name, your

    6 accounts of what went on in Celebici, any such thing?

    7 A. I am unable to recall just now of anything like that.

    8 Q. You talked about an organisation you gave a statement to

    9 that you referred to as "SABOR"; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, something like that. Whether it is the Serbian

    11 SABOR's Information Centre or the other way, I am not

    12 quite sure of the title of that institution.

    13 Q. That institution is not located in Serbia, is it?

    14 A. It is in Serbia.

    15 Q. Does the name Strahinja Zivak mean anything to you?

    16 A. That man, before the war in Konjic, was either director

    17 or one of the executives of the post in Konjic, and

    18 I know that just before the war he was wounding in an

    19 accident, driven to Sarajevo, then the war broke out and

    20 Celebici occurred and what happened that Strahinja

    21 Zivak, I do not know, whether he survived or not, I do

    22 not know.

    23 Q. When you had your meetings with Mr. Turone with regard to

    24 your testimony before this Tribunal, he showed you and

    25 gave you an opportunity to review the three statements

  36. 1 that we have talked about, the Serbian Counsel

    2 Information Centre, District Court Belgrade and OTP;

    3 correct?

    4 A. I said very superficially, and without entering into the

    5 details. When I asked whether I could use them to

    6 refresh my memory or to read them more carefully, but

    7 Mr. Turone said that was not necessary, that it is

    8 sufficient to present what one remembers and that that

    9 would be quite sufficient considering everything that

    10 had happened in Celebici.

    11 Q. Were you ever a member of the SDS?

    12 A. Yes, for a short time, just before the outbreak of the

    13 war.

    14 Q. Did you hold any positions of authority with the SDS?

    15 A. No, none.

    16 Q. Prior to mid May 1992, you, of course, were aware of the

    17 events that were going on around you in Bosnia and

    18 Croatia, were you not?

    19 A. One might say yes and no. I was aware and I was not

    20 aware. If I had been fully aware, I would not have got

    21 to Celebici, but I would have been in a territory far

    22 beyond the one where all this happened.

    23 Q. You knew that there were attacks by Serbian forces on a

    24 number of villages in Bosnia prior to May 1992; you knew

    25 that, did you not?

  37. 1 A. As far as one could learn from the media, television and

    2 radio.

    3 Q. The television and radio was what? Did you get

    4 television from Belgrade or television from Sarajevo?

    5 Where were you getting television from?

    6 A. Both, we were able to watch several programmes, and a

    7 third.

    8 Q. You watched the station from Belgrade, that was during

    9 that time under the control of Slobodan Milosevic?

    10 A. I do not know under whose control Television Belgrade

    11 was; nor do I know under whose control the various

    12 television stations are today, but we watch reports from

    13 both sides.

    14 Q. Did you ever get the impression, as you were watching

    15 the television from Belgrade, that you were being

    16 subjected to propaganda?

    17 A. No, I remember the shots from Kupres, beheaded people,

    18 bodies torn apart. Why is that propaganda if people

    19 were killed, if people were murdered, unless you think

    20 that one type of people should get killed and another

    21 sort should not. I do not see why one could describe as

    22 propaganda the shots of dismembered human bodies. If it

    23 is a human body then whoever did it is a criminal,

    24 whatever side he belongs to, whatever race and whatever

    25 religion.

  38. 1 Q. Do you have any notion as you sit there today how many

    2 Muslims were slaughtered by the Serbian forces during

    3 the war in Bosnia?

    4 MR. TURONE: I object to the relevancy, your Honour.

    5 A. I do not know and I do not think the majority of us here

    6 can know that.

    7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

    8 MR. ACKERMAN: At the time in early 1992, were you in

    9 agreement with Mr. Milosevic's plan for a greater Serbia?

    10 A. I did not know anything about that plan, nor did I agree

    11 with it, nor do I agree with any forcible reshaping of

    12 anything that already existed, if it can done by

    13 agreement. I was naive enough to believe that this

    14 could be done by peaceful means, and naive enough to be

    15 arrested and taken to the Celebici camp.

    16 Q. So I take it from that answer that you think ethnic

    17 cleansing is not a good idea?

    18 A. Of course it is not a good idea, and any problems that

    19 exist can be resolved at a negotiating table by

    20 agreement, if there is goodwill.

    21 Q. When you acquired your M48 weapon in Bradina, did you

    22 know at that time that the possession of such a weapon

    23 was against the law?

    24 A. Yes, I did, but already on 12th May there was an attack

    25 on Bradina, so Bradina was not attacking anyone at the

  39. 1 time. It would be stupid for Bradina to try to attack

    2 at least 40 Muslim villages in the surroundings which

    3 had at least as many inhabitants as Bradina each, so

    4 this was a mere attempt to protect what one might call

    5 one's very life and property.

    6 Q. You knew at that time in May, talking basically mid May

    7 1992, you knew at that time, did you not, that Sarajevo

    8 was being shelled and was under siege?

    9 A. You are asking for mid May?

    10 Q. Yes.

    11 A. I did not know that, because the electricity and the

    12 telephone lines were down already in Bradina.

    13 Q. You knew prior to that time the shelling had started in

    14 Sarajevo and Sarajevo had been placed under siege. It

    15 was a fact that was known to you by mid May 1992, was it

    16 not?

    17 A. Yes, I know there were roadblocks in April, but what

    18 happened later in May, we were cut off from the world in

    19 every respect.

    20 Q. You also know that the main road, the main

    21 transportation artery from Sarajevo to Mostar and the

    22 Adriatic passed through Bradina; correct?

    23 A. Yes, probably. I knew that.

    24 Q. Including the railroad, correct?

    25 A. Yes.

  40. 1 Q. It would have been of great assistance to the Serb

    2 forces who had Sarajevo under siege to be able to block

    3 that road and cut it off so that supplies could not

    4 reach Sarajevo; strategically that would have been a

    5 good idea militarily, would it not?

    6 MR. TURONE: I object to this question. The witness is not a

    7 military expert.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is easy for him to say that he does

    9 not know, it is very easy. He can answer that question,

    10 I do not see -- you can answer that question.

    11 A. I do not know what to answer. What do I have to

    12 answer?

    13 MR. ACKERMAN: You knew that Bradina being on that main

    14 thoroughfare between Sarajevo and the Adriatic, it would

    15 be a good place because of its tunnels to shut off

    16 access to Sarajevo and assist in the siege of Sarajevo,

    17 assist the Serbian forces in the siege of Sarajevo; you

    18 knew that, did you not?

    19 A. From the strategic point of view, that would be normal,

    20 but if we are talking about blowing up the tunnel, I can

    21 tell you who did it and when, if you are interested in

    22 that. It was an interruption, a breaking off of

    23 communication between Bradina and the rest of the

    24 world. We would not mine ourselves and shut ourselves

    25 to the world. There were forces other than us who did

  41. 1 that.

    2 Q. Let me ask you this: were you present so that you could

    3 observe the blowing up of the tunnels at Bradina? Were

    4 you there?

    5 A. I was in Bradina when a gentleman came for some kind of

    6 pretended negotiations, Mr. Musinovic Miralem. He was

    7 sitting in Pero Mrkajic's cafe with some kind of

    8 representatives of the village. I was not with them at

    9 the table but I was in the cafe when they were

    10 discussing the possibility of a joint solution.

    11 Q. My question is: were you at the tunnels when they were

    12 blown up?

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You see when you tease, you have

    14 problems. Your questions are teasing.

    15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my only question was, was he was

    16 at the tunnels when they were blown up, that is the

    17 question I asked.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is telling you how he got to know

    19 about it.

    20 MR. ACKERMAN: He is telling me how to make a watch, and I

    21 asked him what time it was.

    22 A. And where it was.

    23 MR. ACKERMAN: Let me ask you again, were you at the tunnels

    24 in Bradina when they were blown up?

    25 A. I was not at the tunnels, but I was at the cafe. But

  42. 1 the explosion was so strong that the house on the

    2 Bradina side of the tunnel, Dordic's house, was left

    3 roofless and many other houses in Zukici, their roofs or

    4 windows were blown up.

    5 Q. It makes sense in view of what we have been discussing

    6 that it would have been important to the government of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time to relieve the siege of

    8 Sarajevo, to keep that road from Sarajevo to the

    9 Adriatic open; would it not?

    10 A. I do not know, sir, what the government in Sarajevo

    11 wanted. I was not a member of any government in

    12 Sarajevo or outside it, and I do not know what which

    13 government wanted. I know what happened to me in

    14 Celebici and that is what I am talking about and not

    15 about any assumptions of a political or any other

    16 nature.

    17 Q. During the battle for Bradina, I think you have told us

    18 that you were located at the railway station; correct?

    19 A. Yes, in the direction of the railway station.

    20 Q. What you told us yesterday was that in the area you were

    21 in, there was no exchange of gunfire.

    22 A. Virtually, no. Behind was the village of Zukici, and

    23 from that side, there was hardly any exchange of fire.

    24 Q. There was exchange of gunfire in -- to some extent there

    25 and to a larger extent in other places, correct?

  43. 1 A. I do not know, what do you mean an exchange of fire to

    2 some extent; could you clarify that, please?

    3 Q. I think you said just before I asked you that question

    4 that around Zukici there was very little exchange of

    5 gunfire; almost non-existent, I think may have been your

    6 words.

    7 A. Yes, I still stand by that statement.

    8 Q. That means there was some exchange of gunfire there and

    9 the other question that I want you to answer is; are you

    10 suggesting by that there was a greater exchange of

    11 gunfire in other parts of Bradina?

    12 A. Yes, from the direction of Repovci there was far more

    13 shooting, and also Bradina was shelled from Repovci with

    14 various shells and grenades which fell all over the

    15 village, especially the centre of the village where the

    16 cafes are, the school, the butcher's shop, the

    17 infirmary.

    18 Q. During that time, you were not a member of any organised

    19 military group, were you?

    20 A. No, no organised military group. What do you mean, do

    21 you mean an army? What is an "organised military

    22 group", so that I can answer your question with

    23 precision?

    24 Q. Were you in an organisation that had commanders that

    25 were giving you orders? Did you have uniforms, things

  44. 1 of that nature?

    2 A. None of us had any uniforms, nor did we belong to any

    3 army. These were just village guards that existed

    4 virtually everywhere for the security and the protection

    5 of the inhabitants, so we did not have uniforms. None

    6 of us had uniforms of any kind.

    7 Q. I now want to take you to that period of time

    8 immediately after you surrendered and were taken into

    9 custody in Bradina, and the first question I want to ask

    10 you about that is: fairly soon following that surrender,

    11 you were beaten by the soldiers who took you into

    12 custody, were you not?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I think what you have told us is that in the process of

    15 loading you on to a truck there was a gauntlet that you

    16 had to go through, soldiers on both sides, beating you

    17 with chains, boards, weapons and other things?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. You were beaten pretty severely at that time?

    20 A. I do not know what is "severely" according to your

    21 judgement, so it is rather difficult to answer when you

    22 talk about severe beatings, or a serious beating.

    23 I cannot see that any beating is not serious.

    24 Q. I am willing to accept whatever definition you had in

    25 mind of a severe beating when you spoke to us yesterday

  45. 1 about severe beatings. At that occasion, when you were

    2 being loaded on to the truck, in the context of your

    3 definition of the term "severe", you were beaten

    4 severely, were you not?

    5 A. Yes. If one faints from the blows, I assume then one

    6 can only call it a severe beating.

    7 Q. You were bleeding?

    8 A. In Bradina, no. In Celebici, yes.

    9 Q. You said in one of the statements that in the process of

    10 going through that gauntlet you were hit on the head and

    11 that you were bleeding from the head and you still have

    12 a mark on your head from that beating. Was that

    13 inaccurate, when you said that in one of your

    14 statements?

    15 A. I said yesterday that the beating that provoked the

    16 injury under which I have a scar was in Celebici at the

    17 entrance in front of the tunnel.

    18 Q. Yes, I understand that that is what you said yesterday.

    19 I am not asking you what you said yesterday, I am asking

    20 you if you said in one of your statements that at the

    21 time you were being loaded on the truck you were hit in

    22 the head and you were bleeding and that you still have a

    23 mark on your head from that blow. If you said that

    24 happened in one of your statements at the truck in

    25 Bradina, is it your position now that that was an

  46. 1 inaccuracy in your statement?

    2 A. I do not know what was written down in this statement.

    3 We all passed through the gauntlet, we all got beaten,

    4 behind our heads, we all got beaten and they said, "do

    5 not look around, do not mention names", and we were

    6 beaten with anything that could bring about an injury.

    7 Q. You do not know what is written down in the statement

    8 because you were not given a full and fair opportunity

    9 to review your statements; is that a fair statement?

    10 MR. TURONE: May I object to this way of questioning? If the

    11 Defence lawyer has some particular point of the

    12 statement which he considers in contradiction, he should

    13 more clearly formulate his question, please.

    14 MR. ACKERMAN: The objection seems to be unrelated to my

    15 question. My question, your Honour, was: the reason you

    16 do not recall what you said in your statement was

    17 because you were not given a full and fair opportunity

    18 to review your statement, is that correct? I am not

    19 referring to any particular part of the statement, I am

    20 referring generally to his statements. That is my

    21 question.

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You are asking him whether he could not

    23 recall it because he did not review his statement?

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think that is a fair question

  47. 1 to anybody, "because you did not review the statement

    2 you cannot recall it".

    3 MR. ACKERMAN: The testimony he has given us up to this

    4 point, your Honour, is that he was not given an

    5 opportunity to fully review his statements by Mr. Turone,

    6 that he was told by Mr. Turone that that was not

    7 important, so I believe that is a fair question based

    8 upon his prior testimony in that regard.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If there is any problem about his

    10 statements you want to confront him with, ask him.

    11 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay, I will do that. Throughout your journey

    12 to Celebici in that truck, you were beaten throughout

    13 that journey also, were you not?

    14 A. Yes, throughout the drive to Celebici, but it was not on

    15 the road, it was on the truck.

    16 Q. Those beatings were administered by the soldiers who had

    17 taken you into custody at Bradina?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. One of the instruments that was used to beat you during

    20 that journey was what I believe you have described as a

    21 "thick iron bar", correct?

    22 A. Yes, it was a metal bar, I do not know if it was made of

    23 aluminium or steel, that I do not know, but it was a

    24 metal bar.

    25 Q. Would you suggest -- let me just ask you this: would you

  48. 1 agree with me that you said in your statement to the

    2 Serbian Counsel Information Centre that that bar was a

    3 thick iron bar? Could you have said that?

    4 A. I do not know whether I said it was iron or metal but it

    5 was made of metal. Iron is also metal, based on my

    6 knowledge from the chemistry classes from school, so

    7 iron is also metal.

    8 Q. Let me read to you from your statement to the Serbian

    9 Counsel Information Centre, page 1:

    10 "One of the guards in the truck had a thick iron

    11 bar with which he beat us as we lay on the floor of the

    12 truck, one on top of the other. It was night-time and we

    13 did not know where they were taking us."

    14 That is the truth, is it not?

    15 A. Yes, correct.

    16 Q. Thank you. When you finally arrived in Celebici, as you

    17 were getting out of the truck, you were knocked

    18 unconscious, were you not?

    19 A. Yes, at that point, two guards were taking one person

    20 after another and would hit each person in the back of

    21 the head, so when I fell down on this asphalt, I just

    22 heard something and I was semiconscious. If you had

    23 received a blow in the back of your head, you are dazed,

    24 semiconscious.

    25 Q. Then you were all lined up against the wall?

  49. 1 A. As I said, we had to take off our clothes except for our

    2 underwear, so if you had pants or jackets on or shoes,

    3 they paid special attention to the laces and belts and

    4 so all this was thrown on a heap in front of the

    5 tunnel. Then the beating against the wall ensued.

    6 Q. After you were lined up against the wall, you were

    7 beaten for some time by the soldiers then, were you not?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. These were the same soldiers who had brought you there

    10 in the truck?

    11 A. I cannot say if it were the same soldiers who had

    12 brought us in the truck or the soldiers who were waiting

    13 for us. As I said, I was semiconscious, my hands were

    14 behind my head and they were giving orders, "do not look

    15 around, do not mention any names".

    16 Just one correction, we were not lined up all

    17 against the wall. One would be thrown off the truck and

    18 then beaten and then taken into the tunnel, not all of

    19 us lined up one next to another.

    20 Q. All right. So for you personally, I know you have told

    21 us that and said that those beatings along that wall

    22 lasted for five or six hours that night, you personally,

    23 when you were put against that wall, for how long a

    24 period were you beaten there by the soldiers?

    25 A. As a personal or subjective perception, if you are

  50. 1 standing against a wall half naked and people around you

    2 are kicking you with their boots, with all kinds of

    3 objects, your estimation of time is very subjective

    4 category.

    5 Q. I will accept that. By the time you were finally put

    6 into tunnel number 9, you had had several ribs broken?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. You had a cut on top of your head?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. You had a broken nose?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. You had lost consciousness many times?

    13 A. Yes, several times.

    14 Q. After you were put in tunnel 9 and throughout the period

    15 of time you were in tunnel 9, you were not beaten during

    16 that period of time before being moved to hangar 6, is

    17 that true?

    18 A. No, personally I was not.

    19 Q. After you got to hangar number 6 and during the whole

    20 period of time you were in hangar number 6, you were

    21 only beaten two or three times, is that true?

    22 A. That is correct, twice personally before the last time

    23 after the visit of the Red Cross, so altogether three

    24 times.

    25 Q. Do you know of an organisation called the Association of

  51. 1 Detainees?

    2 A. No, I do not.

    3 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Mr. R. That is all I have.

    4 I appreciate it.

    5 A. Thank you too, sir.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any other

    7 cross-examination?

    8 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, your Honours, it is my

    9 turn now.

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.

    11 Cross-examined by MR. OLUJIC

    12 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. R.

    13 A. Good afternoon, sir.

    14 Q. Are you tired already?

    15 A. Yes, quite a bit, because if I can say, to keep in mind

    16 all this information and all those ugly details, it is

    17 exhausting.

    18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, I think we will have a

    19 respite and break for now and come back after lunch at

    20 2.30.

    21 (12.45 pm)

    22 (Adjourned until 2.30 pm)




  52. 1

    2 (2.30 pm)

    3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the Registry has informed me that

    4 the exhibit that I used during the long first part of my

    5 cross-examination was not tendered by me and I would

    6 like to do that now, the drawing of Celebici camp that

    7 was done by Witness R, and so I would therefore like to

    8 tender it.

    9 MR. TURONE: No objection, your Honour.

    10 (Witness entered court)

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still

    12 under oath.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you are still under

    14 oath.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you are refreshed now.

    16 A. Yes. Mr. Olujic, you may continue with your

    17 cross-examination.

    18 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours.

    19 Good afternoon, Mr. R, once again, my name is

    20 Zeljko Olujic, I represent Mr. Zdravko Mucic. Before

    21 I put a number of questions to you, I should like to say

    22 something that my learned colleague who questioned you

    23 before me did not mention --

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, we have a technical problem here,

    25 Ms McMurrey is not getting any translation, for some

  53. 1 reason.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly get the technicians to see to

    3 it.

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English booth? Can the

    5 counsel hear now? Thank you.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue now. I think

    7 everything is all right.

    8 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours. Mr. R, I wanted to

    9 point out that my learned colleague, who talked to you a

    10 moment ago, was speaking in English, and there was time

    11 for you, until the translation was completed, for you to

    12 think and to answer the question, but there was no real

    13 opportunity for a proper dialogue, and such a risk does

    14 exist between you and me because I am speaking Croatian

    15 and you are speaking Serbian. It is a language that we

    16 can both understand so that to avoid a dialogue between

    17 us we have to wait for my question to be translated, so

    18 that I shall slow down, and I would also like you to

    19 wait for my question to be translated before you give

    20 your answer. Have we understood each other?

    21 A. Yes, certainly.

    22 Q. Thank you. Mr. R, as an intellectual, you were able to

    23 fully gain insight into the events that developed in the

    24 spring of 1992, is that correct?

    25 A. I can give --

  54. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me remind the witness, wait for the

    2 interpretation to be concluded before you answer,

    3 because we too are following. We do not understand two

    4 of you.

    5 A. Thank you.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may continue, please.

    7 MR. OLUJIC: Please continue, Mr. R.

    8 A. My answer may be ambiguous, both yes and no, in the

    9 sense that the country had already been swept by the

    10 flame of the war and on the other hand no, because if

    11 I had been wise enough, I would not have got to the camp

    12 in Celebici.

    13 Q. Tell me, have you served in the JNA?

    14 A. Yes, certainly, I did my military service in the JNA; if

    15 you need the year I can tell you.

    16 Q. No, thank you, that is all I needed to know. Mr. R, did

    17 you acquire any rank?

    18 A. I had the rank of a leader of a group, like any other

    19 soldier, squad leader.

    20 Q. So you did acquire rank, the lowest rank, but it is a

    21 rank?

    22 A. It is the rank of a soldier, not an officer rank. It is

    23 the lowest rank.

    24 Q. During your military service, did you receive an Award

    25 of Merit?

  55. 1 A. Yes, I did. It was an honour in 1978/79: it also meant

    2 15 days less of service, as you are well aware.

    3 Q. If I were to tell you that I did not do my military

    4 service --

    5 A. I am sorry.

    6 Q. Which branch of the military did you serve?

    7 A. In the artillery.

    8 Q. Since you were an exemplary soldier with the lowest

    9 rank, which is not an officer rank, in the camp in

    10 Celebici, did the behaviour of the guards there remind

    11 you of the behaviour of troops, of military men?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Tell me, in the morning, you the prisoners, the

    14 detainees, were you expected to appear at a review?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Did the guards have a review of troops?

    17 A. I do not know whether they did in the command building,

    18 that was beyond my vision.

    19 Q. As far as you know?

    20 A. I do not know. They may have had it in the command

    21 building.

    22 Q. Was there a review of troops at dusk?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Was the military music played at night?

    25 A. No.

  56. 1 Q. Were people in the camp wearing one uniform or several

    2 uniforms; in other words, were there different units

    3 present?

    4 A. I think that at the beginning there were different

    5 uniforms, but later on those uniforms became the same.

    6 Q. Were there any members of the so-called MUP?

    7 A. I do not know who the MUP people were, nor what was the

    8 difference between the MUP members, the Green Berets, or

    9 whatever they were called, at the beginning.

    10 Q. But there were some at the beginning, as far as you

    11 know, of course?

    12 A. I did not say that, I do not know.

    13 Q. While you were in the camp, did the guards sometimes

    14 waste ammunition for no purpose?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Tell me, if you know, of course, whether you ever heard

    17 any one of the guards being called to task?

    18 A. I did not, I just know, as I mentioned yesterday,

    19 Mr. Murici, who was an Albanian and who treated us quite

    20 humanely for a couple of days, he was removed very soon

    21 and this applied to other guards who showed any

    22 understanding for the detainees or any compassion. They

    23 would be very shortly after that removed.

    24 Q. While you were in the camp, Mr. R, did you ever witness

    25 any refusal by the guards to carry out orders?

  57. 1 A. May I have a moment to think? Yes, I remember once

    2 there was such a case in the hangar itself. I only know

    3 what I saw with my own eyes within the hangar.

    4 Q. Of course. Again, I am asking you to answer to the best

    5 of your knowledge; were there any conflicts among the

    6 guards at any time?

    7 A. I am not aware of that in Celebici. There were other

    8 conflicts in Konjic, but we are not talking about those

    9 now.

    10 Q. Can you tell me please, you are a protected witness, but

    11 my question does not affect your protection, it is a

    12 general question which I consider to be important. Do

    13 you have any permanent source of income?

    14 A. Just now, you mean? I do.

    15 Q. So your family is taken care of?

    16 A. Relatively speaking, yes, considering my condition of

    17 health and the general circumstances I am living in, but

    18 generally speaking, yes.

    19 Q. Mr. R, do you meet in premises or clubs together with

    20 former detainees, wherever you are now?

    21 A. You mean detainees from Celebici or other camps? I meet

    22 only with one person who was in Celebici, because he

    23 happens to be in the same town as me, and with other

    24 people, mostly people who spent two and more years in

    25 Zenica, because I have no other neighbours.

  58. 1 Q. During those meetings, do you recount the horrors that

    2 you lived through in the camp?

    3 A. Sometimes we do, sometimes we do not, it depends on what

    4 the subject of the conversation is.

    5 Q. What subjects do you talk about? What do they say?

    6 A. What do you mean when you say "they"?

    7 Q. The people you have contact with who were former

    8 detainees.

    9 A. They talk about the conditions under which they lived,

    10 whether they were beaten, what the food was like,

    11 whether they had beds or did not have beds, things like

    12 that.

    13 Q. After you left the camp, and when you reached where you

    14 are living now, did the authorities give you medical

    15 aid?

    16 A. The authorities did not, but I had to look for it

    17 myself, because of the disease that was developing at

    18 the time.

    19 Q. Mr. R, to judge from your testimony, you suffered very

    20 heavy blows on your head, you had a broken rib; have you

    21 managed to have all that treated? Have you recovered?

    22 A. To some extent, yes, as far as my broken nose and my

    23 head. But I still have consequences due to my broken

    24 ribs and spinal injuries and very low blood pressure,

    25 and also I have problems with my spine that I referred

  59. 1 to yesterday. I have had to see a chiropractor

    2 continuously because there are no other ways of fixing

    3 the vertebrae except manually.

    4 Q. Do you have any medical reports to confirm this?

    5 A. Not on me, I did not know that was necessary, but

    6 I could have brought the reports from two chiropractors.

    7 Q. Are they private medical people with their own

    8 surgeries?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. R, and also during

    11 the cross-examination by my learned colleague that

    12 preceded me, you said that you were questioned by the

    13 representative of the OTP office, is that true?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. On that occasion, when you were questioned by the

    16 investigators of The Hague Tribunal, did they ask you

    17 any additional questions in addition to the statement

    18 you were making?

    19 A. Are you referring to the statement I made or to any

    20 questions immediately prior to the trial?

    21 Q. I am not aware that you spoke to the investigators

    22 immediately before your testimony.

    23 A. I said that two or three hours ago.

    24 MR. TURONE: Sorry to interrupt, but I think the answers and

    25 questions are going too close to each other. I ask your

  60. 1 Honour to remind the witness --

    2 A. I apologise.

    3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, when I think we tell the witness

    4 he must wait for the translation, he has no idea how to

    5 do that, because he does not know where to hear the

    6 translation. It needs to be explained to him he can

    7 hear the translation through the other set of

    8 earphones. If they are on the right channel and turned

    9 up high enough, he will be able to hear when the English

    10 translation finishes. Without doing that, instructions

    11 to him to listen to the translation are not particularly

    12 useful. Thank you.

    13 A. Thank you, sir. I did not know, as you said, because

    14 I am only listening to one channel.

    15 MR. OLUJIC: Mr. R, when you were examined by the investigator

    16 of The Hague Tribunal, did the investigators ask you

    17 questions?

    18 A. Probably, yes.

    19 Q. Let me make myself clear: you said everything that you

    20 considered important, and did they after that ask you

    21 additional questions about certain things?

    22 A. (Not interpreted).

    23 Q. When you said probably yes, do you recall what those

    24 questions were?

    25 A. Those could only have been questions to make my

  61. 1 statement more precise. If I said there was a killing

    2 or a beating, then the question would be, "from what

    3 distance could you observe that? Did you personally

    4 eyewitness that? Did you personally hear that? How

    5 long did the beating last?" The questions were of that

    6 nature, there was no additional initiation of new

    7 subjects, it was merely to make my comments more

    8 precise.

    9 Q. Let us focus on that investigation. After the

    10 conversation was completed, did you receive a copy of

    11 your statement?

    12 A. No, because the gentleman who was taking the statement

    13 was in a hurry, so that I did not see a copy.

    14 Q. Did you receive it subsequently?

    15 A. No, perhaps also because I changed my residence in the

    16 meantime.

    17 Q. Mr. R, you said you had a rifle, you described it to us.

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. My question is: did you have that rifle before

    20 13th April 1992, before the outbreak of the conflict in

    21 Sarajevo?

    22 A. Not before 13th April, no.

    23 Q. Did you have that rifle in your house?

    24 A. I got the rifle in the period between the first and

    25 second attack on Bradina, that is between 12th and

  62. 1 25th May, and of course it was at home.

    2 Q. Where at home did you keep it?

    3 A. How can I explain? I have no idea, I do not know.

    4 Q. Was it hidden?

    5 A. If it was at home, of course it was hidden.

    6 Q. It may not mean that, it may be readily visible to

    7 anyone who enters the house. I am asking you the

    8 question: was the rifle concealed?

    9 A. In the sense that it was not at the door or at the

    10 window, yes.

    11 Q. Where was it?

    12 A. I think it was in the bedroom, shall we call it that.

    13 Q. Were there any other weapons in the house?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Was there any ammunition?

    16 A. As far as I recall, there were 20 or so bullets.

    17 Q. During the examination-in-chief, Mr. R, you said that

    18 Bradina was attacked by Croats and Muslims; is that

    19 correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Will you be so kind as to tell us how you know they were

    22 Croats and Muslims?

    23 A. I know because from the direction of the west, from

    24 Repovci, were attacks by Croatian forces and most of the

    25 shelling came from that direction, because the Croats

  63. 1 were far better armed than the Muslims were at that

    2 time, and the attacks from all the other sides came from

    3 the Muslims, because they were more numerous.

    4 Q. But how do you know that Muslims came from one side and

    5 Croats from the other, as you have indicated?

    6 A. Because I was pushed back from the railway station, or

    7 rather I retreated to the centre of town, when I saw

    8 this army or men in uniform coming in from Repovci and

    9 setting light to everything in front of them. The

    10 people who fled at that moment from that part, this

    11 hamlet which is known as Sunjina Strana, said that they

    12 were Croats and that they even recognised some of them.

    13 Also there was probably troops of the regular army of

    14 the Republic of Croatia, because they reached Konjic

    15 already in April, and were put up in the motel there.

    16 Q. How do you know that? You said probably. Are you

    17 assuming or do you know?

    18 A. I had heard about those reports, I was still working in

    19 Konjic, and I heard that a Split company had come and

    20 was accommodated at the motel in Konjic and the people

    21 were terrified what would happen next.

    22 Q. A Split company, a company from Split, how did you know?

    23 A. That was the rumour in Konjic.

    24 Q. So you heard from others?

    25 A. Yes.

  64. 1 Q. You described during the examination-in-chief that at

    2 the moment of the attack on Bradina, you were digging

    3 your potato patch, is that right?

    4 A. Yes, and let me add, I was captured in the rubber boots

    5 I was wearing in the garden and blue overalls and a

    6 sweater that I was wearing at the time. Rubber boots.

    7 Q. Where was your family at the time?

    8 A. My family, when the attack started, when the shelling

    9 started, were in my apartment, but they later sought

    10 shelter in the infirmary in Bradina, or maybe even in

    11 the cellar of the cafe owned by Pero Mrkajic, I do not

    12 know because I had no contact with them afterwards.

    13 Q. What is the distance between the place you were arrested

    14 and that cafe?

    15 A. The distance is about ten metres, but the cellar is one

    16 thing, the army another and the shooting something

    17 else. I could not enter the cellar myself. I saw my

    18 family for the last time on 25th May, and the next time

    19 I met up with them was in April 1994, that is almost a

    20 year later, when the Muslim-Croat conflicts started in

    21 the territory of the municipality of Konjic.

    22 Q. If I understood you well, that actually means that you

    23 men, 18 of you, as you had said, were separated and the

    24 women and children were separate?

    25 A. Certainly, yes.

  65. 1 Q. So that is correct, is it not?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. When you were taken prisoner, together with 17 of your

    4 comrades, did they have weapons?

    5 A. Everybody in that group had some sort of weapons.

    6 Q. What weapons did they have?

    7 A. Those were different kinds of rifles from hunting rifles

    8 that some had, with permits, to semi-automatic rifles,

    9 maybe some even had automatic rifles, I do not know

    10 exactly what everybody had.

    11 Q. Mr. R, you said that during the attack on Bradina, 60

    12 Serbs were killed, is that correct?

    13 A. I think that this is an approximate number, and let me

    14 elaborate. I was never a witness or was ever taken to

    15 identify the killed people in front of the church in

    16 Bradina or those who were then buried in a common grave

    17 there. However, there was a prisoner, his name is

    18 Veseljko Milanic, who was taken to Bradina to identify

    19 those massacred bodies in a church in Bradina and he

    20 said that maybe 40 to 45 people were put in that common

    21 grave and that new bodies were daily found in the woods

    22 and houses and they were being buried there or in other

    23 places. However, that common grave was so badly -- it

    24 was not covered properly so there were limbs that were

    25 sticking out.

  66. 1 Q. Mr. R, you showed a remarkable memory in certain aspects

    2 and you mentioned 60 people who were killed during the

    3 attack on Bradina.

    4 A. I think that this information can be obtained from other

    5 people from Bradina. I only worked in Bradina, I was

    6 not from Bradina and I did not know many people there.

    7 However, I could name some people.

    8 Q. My question to you now is if you do not know which 60

    9 Serbs these people were, do you assume or do you base

    10 that on what you were told by others or on your own

    11 experience? We have time, so take your time, please.

    12 A. I already said in what way I heard about this number.

    13 Also after my release from the prison, I met a number of

    14 women who were actually handling those bodies, whether

    15 they were their husbands or sons and were burying them.

    16 I could not have been a witness because I was already in

    17 Celebici at the time or on the truck.

    18 Q. Exactly, Mr. R. However, based on your statements, it

    19 appears as your direct testimony, so this is what

    20 I wanted to clarify.

    21 A. The statements that I had given earlier were not given

    22 as testimony like the one I am giving today, to give

    23 very precise information. This was more general

    24 statement on different occasions. If necessary, I could

    25 name a certain number of people.

  67. 1 Q. That would not be necessary. I understood what you said

    2 and it is satisfactory to me, thank you.

    3 Mr. R, during the examination-in-chief, when you

    4 were examined by my esteemed colleague Mr. Turone, you

    5 said that during your arrest in Bradina, you had to run

    6 a gauntlet to get on the truck, is that correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. On that occasion, were the soldiers on both sides of

    9 this gauntlet?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Were the soldiers lined up very densely?

    12 A. Yes, right one next to another.

    13 Q. Were they all beating you?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Were they beating every prisoner?

    16 A. Yes, every prisoner who went through the gauntlet.

    17 Q. Were you beaten?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. How long was this cordon or gauntlet?

    20 A. I do not know, it could have been about 15 metres long,

    21 I already explained the position that we had to assume

    22 to pass through this cordon, we had to put our hands

    23 like this (indicates), we had to restrict our vision by

    24 our elbows and then the blows would follow on these

    25 exposed and unprotected areas which were very sensitive.

  68. 1 Q. So densely lined up soldiers, 15 metres to the truck?

    2 A. I cannot say that those were the exact measurements,

    3 that is approximate. Densely lined up soldiers, but

    4 whether it was 12, 15, 17 metres long, I do not know.

    5 Q. But as you say, 12 or 15 or 17, as you put it?

    6 A. Most probably.

    7 Q. Mr. R, when you gave your statement to the investigators

    8 of The Hague Tribunal, why did you mention a 300 long

    9 cordon, whereas you said to the judge in Belgrade that

    10 it was 70 metres long, and now you are telling us today

    11 that it was 12 or 15 or 17, so you are saying 12 to 17

    12 metres today.

    13 A. First, I am sure that I never said that it was 300

    14 metres long, the cordon. If you have that, please show

    15 it to me. I am also convinced that in the statement in

    16 Belgrade, I also did not say that the cordon was 70

    17 metres long, I would also like to see that part of the

    18 statement, if you have it on you. I said pretty much

    19 what I said today, so I never mentioned 300 metres.

    20 Q. Mr. R, you exclude the possibility that the cordon was in

    21 your different statements described as 300 metres, 70

    22 metres long and 12, 15 or 17 metres and you say that the

    23 truth is what you said today, that is that it was 12, 15

    24 or 17 metres long; do I have you correctly?

    25 A. In any event, I never said 300 metres, unless this was

  69. 1 put into my statement later without my knowledge, and

    2 I abide by the statement that I have made today.

    3 I think that you do not have such a document where it

    4 states 300 metres, unless it was put in it later without

    5 my knowledge.

    6 Q. Mr. R, on 2nd March 1994 -- before the investigating

    7 judge, so this is not a casual occasion -- before Judge

    8 Ilija Simic and pursuant to Article 141 of the Criminal

    9 Code of Yugoslavia stated that exactly, and you also

    10 signed every single page of the statement that you gave

    11 to the investigating judge and my colleague, the

    12 investigating judge in Belgrade, did forewarn you that

    13 you had to -- you were under an obligation to speak the

    14 truth, that you were not to omit anything and he also

    15 warned you of the consequences of perjury, and he also

    16 advised you that you did not have to answer certain

    17 questions and, as every practising judge, he said that

    18 you would be facing severe consequences of imprisonment

    19 should you be telling lies.

    20 So you signed this statement given to the Judge

    21 Simic and you signed not only once but you signed every

    22 single page, which was the usual practice and as is

    23 usual in all criminal systems in all of the issuing

    24 states in the area, you signed every single page of this

    25 record and in it it states that the cordon was 300

  70. 1 metres long?

    2 A. In no investigation or anywhere else did I say it was

    3 300 metres long.

    4 Q. I am sorry, Mr. R, when you were questioned by the

    5 investigators of the International Criminal Tribunal for

    6 War Crimes, you stated that this cordon was 70 metres

    7 long -- I apologise, you stated to the investigator 300

    8 metres and to the investigating judge 70 metres. What

    9 I say to you now is based on the record of the statement

    10 that you yourself have given and signed. How is it

    11 possible that we have such a discrepancy? It is not the

    12 same thing that if you were beaten along the 300 metre

    13 long cordon or 12 to 15 metre long cordon?

    14 A. What is your question?

    15 Q. How do you explain this?

    16 A. As I said, I know that I never said that this cordon was

    17 300 metres long. I do not recall that I said that it

    18 was 70 metres long. I may have said 17. I do not know

    19 what was typed up and I do not know what you have in

    20 front of you, but I never said that the cordon was 300

    21 metres long.

    22 Q. Mr. R, I am going to show you the record of the interview

    23 that you gave on 2nd March 1994, and I would like to ask

    24 the usher's assistance to -- I am afraid we only have a

    25 Serbian version of it, there is no translation, so

  71. 1 I would like the usher to please show you the record

    2 that you have signed. I also have an English

    3 translation, even though --

    4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D8/2.

    5 A. May I comment on this, sir?

    6 MR. OLUJIC: Please do not comment on it, just review it with

    7 respect to what we have talked about, whether it states

    8 300 metres long.

    9 A. It states:

    10 "As soon as we turned in the weapons, they brought

    11 in a truck with canvas" --

    12 Q. Excuse me, sir.

    13 A. It does not say that the cordon was 70 metres long, it

    14 says we had to cover 70 metres to get to the truck. 300

    15 metres is never mentioned anywhere.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D9/2.

    17 A. Please allow me to review the document.

    18 MR. OLUJIC: Go ahead, please. (Pause).

    19 A. I assume that this is the document given to Mr. Regis?

    20 Q. Correct, Mr. R.

    21 A. I already mentioned that because of a very short time

    22 during which the statement was given to Mr. Regis, it was

    23 never authorised. I never signed it and I never

    24 received any confirmation later on with respect to this

    25 document.

  72. 1 Q. So what is stated there is not correct?

    2 A. No, it is not correct. Three hundred metres is not

    3 correct.

    4 Q. Why would Mr. Abribat --

    5 MR. TURONE: I object to a question about why another person

    6 might have written something.

    7 MR. OLUJIC: I do not know, I am just asking, maybe he did

    8 tell him why.

    9 A. I do not know. I cannot answer that question.

    10 Q. Mr. R, do you claim that you did not sign the statement

    11 given to Mr. Abribat?

    12 A. I only know that it was very pressing when I gave this

    13 statement and he said he was going to send it to me, but

    14 this is the first time I see it in Serbo-Croatian.

    15 Q. You have an excellent memory, could you please answer

    16 what you know. When you were giving the statement to

    17 Mr. Abribat, did you sign that statement?

    18 A. I am not sure, I cannot answer that question, because

    19 I know that he kept putting off his flight a couple of

    20 times, he left the room to delay his flight.

    21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Would it not be on the statement itself

    22 if it was signed?

    23 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, your Honour, he did sign, and the signature

    24 does exist.

    25 A. Then there is no need to ask a round about question. It

  73. 1 either exists or it does not exist. I just mentioned

    2 the circumstances and the manner in which the statement

    3 was given.

    4 Q. Mr. R, I am going to show you the statement you gave to

    5 the investigating judge in Belgrade and I am going to

    6 read you the whole paragraph from that statement, and

    7 this is what you said and I quote:

    8 "On 26th May 1992, Croatian troops, which was the

    9 Split company with the Muslim troops, surrounded Bradina

    10 and we had to surrender. Near the railway station, 18

    11 of us surrendered because we were promised that nothing

    12 would happen to us. However, as soon as we surrendered

    13 our weapons, they brought a truck with covered" --

    14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly slow down your speed so that

    15 they can interpret it.

    16 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, I apologise:

    17 "... a canvas-covered truck and we had to pass

    18 the distance of about 70 metres to this truck through a

    19 cordon of soldiers who, as we were passing through, beat

    20 us."

    21 Did you say that to the investigating judge in

    22 Belgrade?

    23 A. Yes, but an explanation here --

    24 Q. I just want you to answer the question.

    25 A. I cannot just say simply yes or no. First you said that

  74. 1 you speak Croatian and I speak Serbian. In fact I speak

    2 Herzegovinan if you really want, and I did not say

    3 "doterati", but "dotjerati", which is Herzegovinan

    4 dialect and I think that the sentence can stand just as

    5 I put it. As soon as we surrendered the weapons, we had

    6 to cover a distance of 70 metres to the truck. That

    7 does not imply that the cordon was 70 metres long, that

    8 the distance was 70 metres long between where we put

    9 down our weapons and the truck.

    10 Q. Yes, however, since you say that the judge was putting

    11 in wrong words, it is not your speech, does that mean

    12 that the judge also made factual errors in what he was

    13 putting down?

    14 A. I do not know if the word "doterati" and "dotjerati"

    15 mean the same thing or not, I do not know if that is a

    16 right assumption or not.

    17 Q. Did the investigating judge wrongly write down this 70

    18 metres that you had to cover? Did he misunderstand you

    19 or you just simply did not say that and he wrote it

    20 down?

    21 MR. TURONE: Objection, it is asked and answered. He already

    22 explained that the distance was 70 metres, but that did

    23 not meant that even the gauntlet should be 70 metres.

    24 A. That is exactly it.

    25 MR. OLUJIC: I thank you, my learned colleague Turone, in

  75. 1 this way, but that is not the question that I asked. My

    2 question was whether the judge misunderstood the witness

    3 or just simply wrongly put down what the witness told

    4 him.

    5 MR. TURONE: Objection, he cannot --

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which do you think is more consistent

    7 with the facts? You can see from the explanation what

    8 is more realistic. Why do you push the issue?

    9 MR. OLUJIC: I do not insist on it, I just wanted additional

    10 clarification, but I am satisfied with the answer.

    11 A. Thank you, sir.

    12 MR. OLUJIC: Mr. R, is it true that when you were driven from

    13 Bradina to Celebici that you were beaten on the truck?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Were all the detainees beaten in the truck?

    16 A. Not all of them, because we were crammed in, depending

    17 on who jumped first, so that those people who were

    18 further forward were not beaten, only those who came

    19 last were beaten. I remember that in the case of Simo

    20 Mrkajic, a guard kicked him in the jaw and that his

    21 teeth were knocked out. The teeth were on the floor of

    22 the truck. So that everyone was not beaten, the beating

    23 continued so people tried to escape it by moving further

    24 forward, so that those who were right next to the

    25 driver's cabin probably were not beaten. So the

  76. 1 position that we held was that we had our hands behind

    2 our heads, that no names were to be used, that we had to

    3 look down, I have already described this several times.

    4 Q. It emerged from your examination-in-chief that you were

    5 more or less all of you very severely beaten upon your

    6 capture and while being driven to Celebici?

    7 A. Yes, in the gauntlet and also in the truck, as I have

    8 already said, those who were closer to the driver got

    9 less, those behind got more. It is very simple.

    10 Q. Can it be said, Mr. R, that the subsequent prisoners who

    11 were brought to Celebici were also beaten upon detention

    12 or immediately upon arriving in Celebici?

    13 A. Yes, because our truck was the first to reach the

    14 Celebici camp and the tunnel, and after they had done

    15 with us, other trucks and other prisoners arrived and

    16 all of them were beaten in the same way and thrown into

    17 the tunnel in the same way. I also know that in the

    18 case of some people like Dr. Relja Mrkajic, his glasses

    19 were intentionally broken so that he could not see.

    20 That is just an example.

    21 Q. Mr. R, during the examination-in-chief, you said that

    22 Mr. Zdravko Mucic was never present when somebody was

    23 beaten as far as you saw; is that correct?

    24 A. He was never present when someone was beaten? I said

    25 very clearly and precisely that I saw Mr. Zdravko Mucic,

  77. 1 Pavo, for the first time when I left tunnel number 9,

    2 that he came to hangar number 6 twice and I also can

    3 assert that I personally was not present when somebody

    4 was being beaten and Mr. Mucic was present.

    5 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. R, as an exemplary soldier, a

    6 squad leader who was awarded during your military

    7 service, do you know that according to the constitution

    8 of the former state, who is entitled to sign a

    9 surrender? Did anyone have that authority?

    10 A. Nobody, probably Tito did because he was omnipotent in

    11 his day.

    12 Q. Do you know that the death penalty was envisaged for

    13 capitulation if anyone were to sign it?

    14 A. I do.

    15 Q. Then according to that law, how should somebody behave

    16 when he finds himself in enemy captivity? May he

    17 co-operate with the enemy?

    18 A. Could you elaborate on that question a little? What do

    19 you mean by not being allowed to co-operate with the

    20 enemy and the right to capitulation? I do not

    21 understand the connection.

    22 Q. Let me explain. Is it the duty of a loyal citizen of

    23 SFRY, the former state, when in captivity to do

    24 everything he can to escape, according to the laws that

    25 were valid in the former state?

  78. 1 A. But no one respected the laws at that point in time,

    2 that had no relevance at the time at all. Secondly,

    3 since our families were also detained at the school in

    4 Bradina, any attempt to escape or to do anything would

    5 certainly have terrible reprisals.

    6 Q. Mr. R, tell me, why did you not tell The Hague

    7 investigators that when you were arrested in Bradina,

    8 you had a rifle?

    9 A. I said yesterday already that I did have.

    10 Q. Yes, during the examination-in-chief, when my learned

    11 colleague Turone asked you.

    12 A. I am here under oath and I am telling the truth.

    13 Q. So that is the reason, the reason that you were not

    14 under oath, that you did not tell the investigator the

    15 same thing when he examined you?

    16 A. Just a moment, please. (Pause). Does it say anywhere

    17 in this statement that I said that I did not have a

    18 rifle?

    19 Q. No, it does not, but no mention of a rifle is

    20 mentioned.

    21 A. But I was not asked about that, I was asked how I was

    22 captured, here it does not say anywhere I did have a

    23 rifle or I did not have a rifle.

    24 Q. Mr. R, but when you were making that statement with the

    25 investigating judge in Belgrade, you said that you had a

  79. 1 rifle -- just a moment, please. Let us just wait for

    2 the interpretation. And now, or rather when examined by

    3 the investigator, you did not mention the rifle, so my

    4 question now is: did the investigators ask you

    5 additionally whether you were armed when you were

    6 captured, as far as you can remember?

    7 A. Are you referring to Belgrade?

    8 Q. No, I am referring to the investigators of The Hague

    9 Tribunal.

    10 A. They never put that question to me, I was just asked to

    11 explain where and how I was captured. As for the

    12 statement itself, the statement as it stands was more

    13 detailed than this, but because of the shortness of time

    14 and the translation, probably that is the reason why it

    15 appears in a shorter version, so anyway, no one asked me

    16 whether I was armed or not.

    17 Q. Thank you.

    18 A. You are welcome.

    19 Q. Sir, at your first examination, and I am referring to

    20 the statement you made for the investigating judge in

    21 Belgrade, why did you not say that while you were being

    22 transported from Bradina to Celebici in a truck that you

    23 were beaten with metal poles, to explain, whereas when

    24 speaking to the investigator of the International

    25 Tribunal, you did refer to metal poles?

  80. 1 A. I already said early on today that these statements were

    2 given on different occasions, and I hope that you too

    3 appreciate that, that two statements can never be

    4 identical. One statement contains a certain set of

    5 details, another, because if I were able to

    6 repeat the same statement, I would be a robot or a

    7 computer, but I still hope I am a human being.

    8 Q. So you do not know why you did not mention the metal

    9 poles during the first examination?

    10 A. I think I said that, but the statement was probably

    11 shortened for various reasons. But now here we are, we

    12 have the opportunity to make any corrections if

    13 necessary.

    14 Q. Sir, during your first examination by the investigating

    15 magistrate in Belgrade, why did you say on that occasion

    16 that several of your ribs were broken and later on, when

    17 you were examined by The Hague investigator, you said

    18 that only one rib had been broken?

    19 A. As to whether it was one or several ribs, even now, if

    20 anyone wants to see and feel with their fingers, they

    21 may do so. I know that one rib is broken and several

    22 others were cracked, so there is a slight imprecision in

    23 the wording that you are now pinpointing.

    24 Q. Will you please answer my question? Why did you say at

    25 the first investigation several ribs and then only one

  81. 1 rib when speaking to The Hague investigator?

    2 MR. TURONE: Objection, your Honour, asked and answered.

    3 MR. OLUJIC: I withdraw that question, thank you.

    4 When you were speaking to the investigating

    5 magistrate in Belgrade, why did you not tell that

    6 magistrate the way in which Zdravko Mucic lined you up

    7 in front of the guards and what he told you about

    8 greater Serbia as you told us here during the

    9 examination-in-chief?

    10 A. Because no one asked me about that. Here the emphasis

    11 was on individual instances of death, beatings and

    12 torture, and probably at that moment the judge did not

    13 consider it important, so he did not put it down in the

    14 minutes.

    15 Q. Mr. R, have you read Dante?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, I have no further questions.

    18 A. You mean, "you who enter leave all hope behind"?

    19 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, it is going to take us a few

    20 minutes because of the electrical problems here. Would

    21 the court like to take the break now?

    22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have difficulties of your

    23 continuing immediately.

    24 MR. MORAN: There is no problem, your Honour, just whatever

    25 pleases the court pleases me.

  82. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can carry on.

    2 MS. McMURREY: I would just like to remind the court that

    3 my audio output is dead and that was what Mr. Moran was

    4 implying. I normally split with him. Maybe I can move

    5 to his place.

    6 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that may be the appropriate way to

    7 solve our electrical problem, while I get wired.

    8 (Pause). May it please the court.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

    10 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

    11 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Good afternoon, sir.

    12 A. Good afternoon, sir.

    13 Q. My name is Tom Moran and I am going to be asking you

    14 some questions. I would like to see if we can set a few

    15 ground rules before I start. The first thing is

    16 sometimes the questions I ask frankly are not as precise

    17 as they ought to be, and if I ask you a question that

    18 confuses you, that you do not understand, will you stop

    19 me and I will work with you if it takes all day so you

    20 understand it, fair enough?

    21 That was the next thing I was going to ask you.

    22 You just nodded your head. You will see there are two

    23 ladies over here with funny machines, one in front of

    24 you, and one over there. They are stenographers and

    25 they have to take down every word we say and they cannot

  83. 1 take down a nod. Instead of nodding yes or no like we

    2 would in a conversation, if you would say yes or no,

    3 I would appreciate that and I think they would also.

    4 Can you do that for me, sir?

    5 A. Yes, fine.

    6 Q. One other thing, and I think it will get us done quicker

    7 and get us all out of here and you home quicker, if you

    8 will listen to the question I ask and just answer the

    9 question I ask, I think we can all be done with this in

    10 as painless a way as possible; fair enough, sir?

    11 A. Okay.

    12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is not what a nod means.

    13 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour. Let us start off, I will not

    14 try any surprises on you, I will tell you when I am

    15 going to change subjects, so there is no confusion to

    16 anybody.

    17 You were born in the Konjic municipality?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Except for your years in Konjic you have essentially

    20 lived in Konjic municipality your entire life?

    21 A. I lived in the municipality of Konjic up to the

    22 completion of elementary school, I completed my

    23 secondary school in Mostar and the university in

    24 Sarajevo. After that, I lived within the territory of

    25 the municipality of Konjic, where I worked.

  84. 1 Q. You are a person from Konjic, basically?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Back, what, in March 1992, there was a referendum in

    4 Bosnia on independence, you recall that referendum?

    5 A. I know that there was a referendum, but I do not know

    6 any details about it.

    7 Q. That is fine, sir, the only question I am going to ask

    8 is this -- I do not care if you voted or, if you did

    9 vote, how you voted, because that is your business, it

    10 is none of my business. All I want to know is, if you

    11 had desired to vote, could you have voted in that

    12 referendum?

    13 A. I cannot give you a definitive answer, possibly I could

    14 have, but I really do not know when it was held, exactly

    15 where, and I did not participate. Probably I could have

    16 if I had wanted to.

    17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the answer, I think. That is

    18 the answer you wanted.

    19 MR. MORAN: He gave me exactly the answer and I want to thank

    20 him for that. Another thing, let us jump ahead to the

    21 defence of Bradina. We are both old artillery men and

    22 you know what a chain of command is, in the military?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. There was no military organisation in Bradina with a

    25 chain of command, was there?

  85. 1 A. No.

    2 Q. There were no commanders or subcommanders or anything

    3 like that, were there?

    4 A. All I can say is that there were some kind of

    5 commanders. My immediate commander was Vaso Vujicic,

    6 I got the rifle from him and the orders to go towards

    7 the railway station when the attack started.

    8 Q. As I recall you testified earlier, none of you had any

    9 uniforms?

    10 A. No, no one had uniforms.

    11 Q. You were not wearing kind of badges or insignia or arm

    12 bands, or anything to identify yourself as part of the

    13 defence force, were you?

    14 A. No. I already explained what my clothes were, what

    15 I was wearing rather when I was captured and how I was

    16 taken to Celebici, in rubber boots, blue overalls and a

    17 green sweater.

    18 Q. Really you were not even taking part in the defence when

    19 you were captured, you were just digging your potatoes?

    20 A. I said at the moment Bradina was attacked, I was in my

    21 garden digging potatoes, that Vaso Vujicic ran up and

    22 said that Bradina had been attacked from all sides and

    23 that I should go towards the railway station.

    24 Q. That is fair. My memory was not as good as yours. Let

    25 us talk about memories for a second, let us change

  86. 1 subjects again. Sometimes I have a hard time

    2 remembering what I had for lunch yesterday and I am sure

    3 you may very well be the same way. The further back in

    4 time an event is, the less well I remember the details.

    5 I think we all agree that is true for most people; is

    6 that fair?

    7 A. It happens to everyone. As far as your memory is

    8 concerned, it must be better than mine, because your

    9 legal training gives you this greater ability to

    10 remember details, but as you say, it is the normal human

    11 process of forgetting.

    12 Q. Oh but it was true that my memory was that good, sir.

    13 I think you talked to Mr. Ackerman about those three

    14 statements that you made, the one to the Serbian Counsel

    15 Information Centre back in 1993 at some point, and then

    16 the interview you gave in the District Court of Belgrade

    17 in March 1994, and finally the statement that you gave

    18 to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor

    19 back in October 1995.

    20 As I recall your testimony, stop me if I am wrong,

    21 it is that when you were giving those statements you

    22 were giving them to the best of your memory, answering

    23 questions as truthfully as you could; if somebody did

    24 not ask a question you did not answer it, but it

    25 reflects the best memory that you had at that time; is

  87. 1 that a fair statement?

    2 A. Yes, I think so. It can be said like that.

    3 Q. Last week when you were meeting with Mr. Turone, you had

    4 a chance at least to quickly review those statements,

    5 all three of them, is that right?

    6 A. No, I have already said how it happened. I asked

    7 Mr. Turone whether I could carefully read those

    8 statements, and he answered the way I have already said,

    9 he said, "all you have in your memory is sufficient,

    10 there is no need for any additional reading". I asked

    11 for a careful review.

    12 Q. That might have refreshed your memory, is that right?

    13 A. Certainly.

    14 Q. I can understand that those kinds of things could occur,

    15 that that would help refresh your memory. I understand

    16 that sometimes there is going to be details in these

    17 statements that are not there, your testimony may be

    18 lacking in details; for instance, what was it Mr. Abribat

    19 did not ask you, if you had a weapon; do you recall

    20 testifying to that?

    21 A. I think the interpretation is not quite correct. Could

    22 you please give me a sentence that I can answer with yes

    23 or no as regards Mr. Abribat?

    24 Q. Sure. Your statement to Mr. Abribat does not mention one

    25 way or the other whether you had a weapon in Bradina and

  88. 1 as I recall your testimony --

    2 A. No mention is made.

    3 Q. As I recall your testimony, the reason that that is not

    4 there is because he never asked?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. So that is an example of what I am talking about, that

    7 sometimes the details between the statements will be

    8 different, but basically --

    9 A. Yes, of course.

    10 Q. But basically each one of the statements reflected the

    11 best memory you had about what you were talking about at

    12 the time you made the statement; is that about right?

    13 A. Yes, absolutely right.

    14 Q. Good. That is what I have been dancing around to get.

    15 I may not have been as artful about it as I could have

    16 been, but I appreciate you struggling through this with

    17 me.

    18 The day you were captured was what, January

    19 26th 1992 or was it the 25th?

    20 A. January?

    21 Q. May, I am sorry, May 25th 1992. Was that not the day

    22 you were arrested?

    23 A. I think it was 26th May in the evening. I know it was

    24 the evening. I think it was 26th.

    25 Q. Okay, and you were taken immediately to the Celebici

  89. 1 camp?

    2 A. Yes, that truck went directly to the Celebici camp. The

    3 one in front of us went to Musala for beatings. Our

    4 truck did not visit Konjic, it drove directly to

    5 Celebici and then what happened was what I have been

    6 telling you about this past two days.

    7 Q. Sure. The first day you were there, which would have

    8 been the 25th or 26th May, the first day you were there

    9 was the day that there were these beatings?

    10 A. That evening.

    11 Q. As I recall, you testified that a man named Hazim Delic

    12 was there at those beatings, is that right?

    13 A. As far as the night of the beatings, I did not indicate

    14 who was there on the first night of the beatings because

    15 I described the position, manner the whole procedure,

    16 but somebody from the immediate vicinity issued the

    17 commands, saying, "that is enough".

    18 Q. Do you know whether that was Hazim Delic? One way or

    19 the other. If you do not know, you do not know.

    20 A. I do not know. I did not even mention him in that

    21 context, I did mention him in other contexts.

    22 Q. Okay. After those beatings, you were all stripped to

    23 your underwear and put into tunnel number 9?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You were locked in tunnel number 9 for some period of

  90. 1 time, about a week, and during that period --

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. And during that period, the only water you got was,

    4 what, this industrial water you talked about, it was

    5 pretty filthy stuff?

    6 A. Yes, the first day we got the proper drinking water from

    7 the command building and later that stopped. In number

    8 6, even that kind of poor quality water was reduced to a

    9 minimum.

    10 Q. My notes from yesterday indicate that the time you were

    11 in tunnel 9 and you were getting this industrial water,

    12 it was so filthy that there were pieces of faeces in it;

    13 do you recall testifying to that?

    14 A. I do, and that is the truth. I also said that for a

    15 long time after leaving the camp, I had problems with my

    16 liver.

    17 Q. Yes, sir. I thought we would have a deal you would

    18 listen to my question and answer it. Like I say, that

    19 will get us out of here a little quicker.

    20 A. I apologise.

    21 Q. That is fine, thank you. You also as I recall testified

    22 that there was urine and excrement all over tunnel 9 and

    23 the level of that stuff started rising in the tunnel

    24 because the tunnel sloped downward; do you remember

    25 testifying to that?

  91. 1 A. Yes, I do not know what the exact precise statement you

    2 are referring to, the tunnel was sloping downwards and

    3 this last part was flat, so that as it filled up with

    4 urine and faeces, the level rose and flooded part of the

    5 tunnel where we were lying, so it was occupying more

    6 space so that there was less left for us to sit and lie

    7 on.

    8 Q. There were about 70 people jammed in there that week,

    9 were there not?

    10 A. I said on the first night, I think I said 77 on the

    11 first night, but the number varied immediately during

    12 that first week. Some were transferred to number 6,

    13 I mentioned just my own case when I was transferred,

    14 I know that some people were directly moved from there

    15 to the sports hall in Konjic.

    16 Q. How many people that were in there came down with

    17 cholera?

    18 A. I do not know that anyone got cholera, but I know that

    19 everyone had a diarrhoea.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we will take the

    21 break now.

    22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, can I take two more minutes and then

    23 that will be a perfect time to break, a change of

    24 subject?


  92. 1 MR. MORAN: Did many people get typhus?

    2 A. I do not know that anyone contracted typhus. All

    3 I know, I repeat, was terrible cases of diarrhoea and

    4 loss of body weight. I weighed about 88 kilograms when

    5 I was captured and when I left, I weighed 57.

    6 MR. MORAN: So no one had typhus, no one had cholera. Your

    7 Honour, I think this would be a good time for a break.

    8 A. I am not aware of any such cases.

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A break for a conclusion?

    10 MR. MORAN: Only a break, not a conclusion, but I thank your

    11 Honour's indulgence for letting me finish off the

    12 subject.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will break now and come back at

    14 4.30.

    15 (4.00 pm)

    16 (A short break)

    17 (4.30 pm)

    18 (Witness entered court)

    19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the witness he is still

    20 on his oath.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: I am reminding you, sir, that you are still

    22 testifying under oath.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.

  93. 1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am about set to mention a name and

    2 I would like to mention it in private session, if

    3 I may.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we go into closed session now?

    5 (In closed session)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (In open session)

    22 MR. MORAN: Okay, sir, we are back in public session, and

    23 everyone out in the audience can hear us, if they are

    24 there. Remember on direct you testified about a couple

    25 of days after you were thrown into tunnel number 9 and

  94. 1 some guards came in and passed a helmet and told you to

    2 put all of your valuables in it?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. That name I mentioned, that man, was he one of the

    5 people that did that? If you do not know, you do not

    6 know?

    7 A. I do not know if it was at night and at the beginning,

    8 I did not know the majority of people in there.

    9 Q. Do you know that man whose name I mentioned in private

    10 session?

    11 A. I do not know him personally, but I know that he was in

    12 Celebici at one point.

    13 Q. Okay. You do not recall whether he was one of the

    14 people that passed the helmet or not?

    15 A. I do not recall. In fact, nobody did pass it around,

    16 the helmet was passed in at the entrance and then people

    17 were passing it on among themselves to put things

    18 inside. Nobody walked inside. The practice was for the

    19 guards not to enter during the night. Maybe Mr. Delic

    20 did come in, but only much later in August. He would

    21 come into number 6.

    22 Q. Okay, sir. Let us change subjects again. Let me follow

    23 something up you just said, but it does not have to do

    24 with that man. Did I understand your testimony was that

    25 it was a rare occasion for a guard to go either into

  95. 1 tunnel 9 or hangar 6 at night until August? Did

    2 I understand you to say that?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. I think again we agree that it was a rare thing for that

    5 to happen at night?

    6 A. Yes, all the way until August, until Mr. Delic came in

    7 several times. Up until then, the guards would call out

    8 from the doorstep, they would call the prisoners out by

    9 their names and then bring them out, beat them.

    10 Q. That is fine. Sir, let us change subjects again for a

    11 second, okay? You testified yesterday about the death

    12 of Miroslav Vujcic, do you remember that?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. As I recall your testimony, you testified that Mr. Delic

    15 had been involved in that shooting; is that correct?

    16 A. I said that I was in the tunnel at that time and that we

    17 only heard beatings and cries, and later, excuse me,

    18 after the burst of fire, you could hear the voice, "he

    19 fled, God damn it" and then we saw his brother Radoslav

    20 and he said, "Delic killed Miroslav".

    21 Q. So the source of your information that it was Mr. Delic

    22 who killed him was Mr. Vujcic's brother Radoslav, is that

    23 correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You have absolutely no personal knowledge one way or the

  96. 1 other except what Radoslav Vujcic told you; is that

    2 correct?

    3 A. This personal experience, partial or whatever, is such

    4 that we could hear the voice of Miroslav, in fact

    5 I heard Miroslav's voice, because I knew him for at

    6 least ten years before the war.

    7 Q. Yes, sir, but the question I had for you was that the

    8 source of your information for Mr. Delic's involvement in

    9 this shooting is Radoslav Vujcic; that is what you

    10 testified to today and that is what you testified to

    11 yesterday, is that not right?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, with the help of the usher? Here

    14 are copies for the court, the Registry and one for the

    15 Prosecutor. Your Honour, I move to introduce under

    16 whatever the next number is a portion of Radoslav

    17 Vujcic's statement to the Office of the Prosecutor. So

    18 I could narrow it down, it is the cover page that has a

    19 Bates number of 00385415, the signature page, which has

    20 a Bates number of 00385419, and one paragraph of the

    21 first page, which has a Bates number of 00385416. That

    22 paragraph starts as the fifth paragraph from the top,

    23 starts off "when we arrived in Celebici"; specifically,

    24 your Honour, I am introducing it for the limited purpose

    25 of impeaching the declarant to that statement, which

  97. 1 would be Mr. Radoslav Vujcic.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is the declarant here?

    3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the witness testified that the

    4 declarant for the statement that Mr. Delic was involved

    5 in the shooting was Radoslav Vujicic. This is

    6 Mr. Vujcic's statement about that. Like I say, I am just

    7 limiting the offer. I have given the court and the

    8 Registry clean copies, but all I am offering is the

    9 front page, the signature page and the one

    10 paragraph that I identified, which is on the second

    11 page.

    12 JUDGE JAN: What is the number of the page?

    13 MR. MORAN: The first page says "witness statement" at the

    14 top, the last number, the Bates number at the bottom --

    15 JUDGE JAN: Which paragraph is it?

    16 MR. MORAN: The fifth paragraph, starts off "when we arrived

    17 in Celebici".

    18 JUDGE JAN: He states he does not know who killed his

    19 brother.

    20 MR. MORAN: That is correct, your Honour. Like I say, it is

    21 not to impeach this witness, it is to impeach

    22 Mr. Vujcic's statement to this witness, that is what the

    23 offer is for.

    24 JUDGE JAN: You can impeach him only with reference to his

    25 statement. How can you impeach him with reference to

  98. 1 someone else's statement?

    2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am not impeaching this witness.

    3 I am not saying that Mr. Vujcic did not tell him that.

    4 My position is that what he told Mr. R is different from

    5 what he said to the Prosecutor, so the declarant,

    6 Mr. Vujcic, is impeached.

    7 JUDGE JAN: Maybe Radoslav made a false statement to him.

    8 MR. MORAN: That is possible, your Honour, that is my

    9 position, it is conceivably possible. I am not impugning

    10 this man at all. If the court would like, I can deliver

    11 another copy of this statement that has everything else

    12 blacked out and just including the one paragraph of the

    13 offer, plus the front page and the signature page;

    14 whatever makes the court happy makes me happy.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is not a question of happiness

    16 here. We are talking about irregularities, not about

    17 happiness.

    18 JUDGE JAN: Are you producing Radoslav as a witness?

    19 MR. TURONE: We are not calling Radoslav Vujicic as a

    20 witness.

    21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, Mr. Greaves just pointed out to me

    22 that this goes to the trustworthiness under Tadic of the

    23 statement from Radoslav Vujicic to this witness.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree, but how does it get in?

    25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it gets in to (i) show the

  99. 1 untrustworthiness of the statement given by Mr. Vujicic

    2 to this witness here, and (ii) it shows that the person

    3 who actually made the statement that is in front of the

    4 court, that Mr. Delic was involved in the shooting, has

    5 made two different statements.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It will not be sufficient to say that

    7 the witness was not told something.

    8 MR. MORAN: I am not saying the witness -- my position is --

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if you look at the dates when he

    10 told him this, gave him this information, it was much

    11 earlier than this.

    12 MR. MORAN: Let me clear that up with one quick question,

    13 your Honour.

    14 Sir, when Mr. Vujcic, Radoslav, gave you this

    15 information about his brother's death, that was while

    16 you were in the camp, was it not?

    17 A. Yes, immediately upon entering the hangar 6. Radoslav

    18 was in very bad shape, his hands were broken.

    19 MR. MORAN: Sir, that is fine, thank you. Your Honour,

    20 again, the statement that Radoslav made ... Judge Jan,

    21 your microphone is on and I can hear you fairly well.

    22 JUDGE JAN: As a judge, I do not talk about some thing which

    23 I do not want other people to know.

    24 MR. MORAN: I promised Mr. Hocking some months ago that if

    25 this occurred I would warn you.

  100. 1 JUDGE JAN: It is in open court, it does not matter.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Inaudible).

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, your microphone is not on.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is it a potentially exculpatory matter

    5 should be filed in these proceedings? I do not see how

    6 you can, through this witness, who was told a thing on

    7 the day it happened, which is usually the best evidence

    8 there is, but on this, which is considerably later --

    9 but for such a serious matter to have escaped -- as I

    10 was saying, it was long time ago.

    11 MR. MORAN: I have just been informed first by Mr. Greaves --

    12 and I know the Tribunal is not bound by the national

    13 rules of evidence and I am not asking you to adopt them,

    14 but Mr. Greaves has told me that he has seen, in the

    15 United Kingdom, cases where what we would call

    16 hearsay -- one time, he says -- what we would call

    17 hearsay, where an inconsistent prior statement by the

    18 declarant was admitted, and I can tell you that under

    19 the American Federal Rules of Evidence, specifically

    20 I think it is Rule 805 -- is that correct? It is either

    21 805 or 806. It is specifically provided for in the

    22 American national rules, and I think the reason for it

    23 is this: if a Tribunal of any type is going to consider

    24 statements made by other people out of court, you have

    25 to be able to look at the reliability of that

  101. 1 statement.

    2 An example that comes to mind is out of Judge

    3 Cassese's book with Judge Roling on the Tokyo Tribunal,

    4 where a statement on Foreign Minister Ribbentrop in

    5 Germany that he made just a few days before he was

    6 executed came in and the way Judge Roling, who was the

    7 judge on the Tokyo Tribunal, analysed it was there was

    8 two things you had to look at: one, did Mr. Ribbentrop

    9 make this statement, and I am not disputing the fact

    10 that Radoslav Vujicic made the statement to this

    11 witness, and then the second thing the court should look

    12 at is, is the statement true. His own statement goes to

    13 the truth of that, it goes to the weight this court

    14 ought to give what Mr. Vujicic told this witness.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How does it become a part of the

    16 proceedings, this is what I am trying --

    17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it comes in for the very limited

    18 purpose, not of substantive evidence, not to show that

    19 Mr. Delic did or did not do anything --

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But to show that there is an

    21 inconsistent statement about the matter.

    22 MR. MORAN: By the person who has made the statement that has

    23 been introduced to the Tribunal, that is correct, your

    24 Honour, and that is all I am offering it for. Again, it

    25 does not go to show whether Mr. Vujicic made the

  102. 1 statement, but whether what he told this person is a

    2 true fact.

    3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see your point, I agree, there are

    4 two statements which are inconsistent about the same

    5 matter, credited to the same person. How do we get his

    6 second statement into evidence, that is what I am

    7 saying?

    8 MR. ACKERMAN: May I try to shed --

    9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not part of the --

    10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

    11 JUDGE JAN: And it is not reliable, that portion.

    12 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour, it goes to the weight the court

    13 ought to give the hearsay evidence that was admitted.

    14 JUDGE JAN: Yes, you exclude that, saying it was not

    15 reliable, because the evidence is only admissible if it

    16 is reliable and has probative value.

    17 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I do not want to sound like

    18 Mr. Niemann on this, but we have trained judges here and

    19 it helps me.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you reject one, you must have

    21 the two to compare. How do we get this into evidence?

    22 That is the point. I suppose Mr. Ackerman is anxious to

    23 assist, so let us hear him.

    24 MR. ACKERMAN: I do not know if I can be of any assistance at

    25 all, but it seems to me that in a situation where the

  103. 1 Trial Chamber, based upon the Tadic decision, on

    2 occasion lets in evidence that would be excluded as

    3 hearsay where I come from, for instance, what is always

    4 at issue then is the reliability of that out of court

    5 statement. Did that out of court statement that you

    6 have heard, in this case what Radoslav Vujicic said to

    7 this witness, is that a reliable statement?

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it is made, that is the second

    9 point.

    10 MR. ACKERMAN: And was it reliable, because if it is not

    11 reliable it should not come in. It seems to me there

    12 are two possibilities. Number one, this court could

    13 say, based upon the document presented to it, it can now

    14 retroactively determine that that statement was not

    15 reliable and exclude it from the evidence and exclude it

    16 from your consideration; or secondly, you can go ahead

    17 and admit this document as evidence of the reliability

    18 of the statement that has been admitted and consider the

    19 weight that it might have in showing that and therefore

    20 in your deliberations weigh the reliability of the

    21 statement that has been admitted through this witness.

    22 There are two ways to go.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The first consideration I have pointed

    24 out has still not been answered, how do we get it into

    25 the proceedings, because it is exculpatory and should be

  104. 1 in the proceedings. You cannot get it into proceedings

    2 through this witness.

    3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is a statement which shows on

    4 its face that it was taken by the Office of the

    5 Prosecutor and was provided to us in discovery, and I do

    6 not think that anyone from over there will dispute that

    7 that is in fact what occurred. I have no reason to

    8 believe that that statement is anything other than what

    9 it purports to be, a statement taken by an investigator

    10 for the Office of the Prosecutor on February 21st 1996,

    11 properly interpreted by the -- just the way every other

    12 statement is.

    13 So the authentication, unless the Prosecution

    14 wants to take the position, and I do not think they

    15 will, that it is not what it purports to be, in fact

    16 I bet they are willing to stipulate that it is what it

    17 purports to be, that it is a document provided to us in

    18 discovery that is a statement of this witness.

    19 MR. TURONE: Of course it was a statement provided to the

    20 Defence lawyers by the Prosecution, your Honour.

    21 Certainly.

    22 JUDGE JAN: There is no dispute about the genuineness of

    23 this statement, because it was recorded by your office.

    24 There are two ways open: we have it tendered in before

    25 us or strike off that portion in which he refers to how

  105. 1 the death of this particular person occurred as

    2 unreliable hearsay.

    3 MR. TURONE: We have no objection to the tendering of this

    4 document, your Honour, provided this is done not to

    5 impeach this witness.

    6 JUDGE JAN: (inaudible) that person would be telling a lie.

    7 MR. TURONE: We have no objection, your Honour.

    8 MR. MORAN: Pardon me, your Honour, it is admitted?

    9 JUDGE JAN: I said we can take it into evidence as an

    10 admitted document.

    11 MR. MORAN: Again, I am just offering the one

    12 paragraph plus --

    13 JUDGE JAN: It does not matter.

    14 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, your Honour.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us follow your background for

    16 tendering it. You lay the foundation for tendering it

    17 by asking the question, then you point out to him that

    18 this is the statement from this gentleman, it states to

    19 the contrary, then you can put it in.

    20 MR. MORAN: Sir, did someone deliver a copy of that statement

    21 to you, Mr. R? You said that you read some English; is

    22 your English good enough to read that document?

    23 I notice you were flipping through it, especially that

    24 one paragraph.

    25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The first page.

  106. 1 A. Yes.

    2 JUDGE JAN: I am sure he can. He has read Dante's

    3 "Inferno".

    4 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, if he has read Dante's Inferno, he

    5 has read a lot more than I have.

    6 JUDGE JAN: He quoted a passage from the book?

    7 A. I apologise, Dante is in Italian, but I shall do my best

    8 to read this too. The sentence roughly says that

    9 soldiers cried out, "a Chetnik has escaped", and that a

    10 soldier shot at him. When he fell, another soldier shot

    11 him in the back, or the back of his head, with three

    12 bullets, et cetera.

    13 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir, if you could stop here just for a

    14 second.

    15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is the last sentence, "I could not

    16 see the soldiers who shot at my brother". This is

    17 really --

    18 MR. MORAN: That is the relevant thing.

    19 A. Yes, I was facing the wall and I could not see over my

    20 shoulder.

    21 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. So what it says here is different from

    22 what Radoslav told you?

    23 A. I told you what he told me, and I am not competent for

    24 what is stated in this document. I know that this

    25 happened very shortly after we were transferred from the

  107. 1 tunnel to number 6.

    2 Q. All I am asking, and I am asking really because of our

    3 rules of evidence here, just asking for you to confirm

    4 for us that what Mr. Vujicic said in that statement is

    5 different from what he told you at Celebici; and that is

    6 just a yes or no?

    7 A. Obviously it is different.

    8 MR. MORAN: That is fine, sir, that is all I was asking.

    9 Your Honour, I again move to admit that one

    10 paragraph plus the cover sheet and the signature page.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you given a copy to the Registry?

    12 MR. MORAN: I believe it is on the witness stand, your

    13 Honour. I guess the Registrar can retrieve it.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D12/3.

    15 MR. MORAN: Okay sir, let us go to a different subject here

    16 and let us see if we can get you out of here and home

    17 today.

    18 JUDGE JAN: With apologies to Madam Residovic. She has yet

    19 to take her turn.

    20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the look I just got ...

    21 Again, changing our subjects, in some of your

    22 statements, I think at least two and maybe three of your

    23 statements, you recounted an incident where some Arab

    24 journalists came through; do you remember the Arab

    25 journalists coming through?

  108. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. I will be right up front with you. Some of the

    3 witnesses here have testified that the Arab journalists

    4 actually filmed people being beaten in hangar 6 or at

    5 least in the camp and, as I recall, others testified

    6 that these Arab journalists actually took part in some

    7 of the beatings. Which one is it, sir, do you recall?

    8 A. They did not participate in the beatings, they did

    9 participate in the filming.

    10 Q. So they just filmed the beatings, they did not join in,

    11 is that right?

    12 A. They did not participate in the beatings, they just

    13 filmed the beatings.

    14 Q. That is because other people have testified, I am trying

    15 to help clear that up, and I thank you very much for

    16 that, sir.

    17 Now I want to jump back again to a different

    18 subject. In your statement, the statement that you made

    19 to the District Court in Belgrade, you mentioned a woman

    20 named Grozdana Cecez; do you remember just generally

    21 about that?

    22 A. Do you mean do I remember the woman called Grozdana

    23 Cecez, or do I remember making that statement?

    24 Q. Either one. Let us start off with: do you remember

    25 making the statement?

  109. 1 A. Yes, certainly I made the statement, that was what we

    2 were talking about all afternoon.

    3 Q. Yes, sir. Do you remember including in the statement,

    4 your statement, about Ms. Cecez?

    5 A. I do not remember. I do not know exactly what I said in

    6 that statement.

    7 Q. Okay. What I want you to do is help clear something up

    8 for me and it is this: in your statement made to the

    9 Belgrade Prosecutor you said that you heard Ms. Cecez

    10 being interviewed on a television programme. Do you

    11 remember seeing her on a television programme?

    12 A. I do not know what I stated, but I know that I did watch

    13 that interview. I do not know what the exact wording of

    14 that sentence is.

    15 Q. I would read it to you, but I wanted it in general

    16 terms. It is:

    17 "I heard from Grozdana herself when I saw her

    18 interviewed on Novica TV."

    19 Do you remember seeing her on television?

    20 A. I do remember seeing her speaking on television. The

    21 sentence is not very precise, not the moment when she

    22 was giving the interview but when the interview was

    23 being broadcast on television; not the moment of the

    24 interview, but the moment when it was shown on

    25 television.

  110. 1 Q. You just answered my next question, which was going to

    2 be, were you present when she was interviewed or did you

    3 just see it with everybody else in the world and you

    4 have just answered that.

    5 A. I was not present, I saw it on television. That is why

    6 I was saying the sentence is not precise.

    7 Q. I understand that, sir, and that is why I ask you about

    8 it.

    9 You also said in your statement to the

    10 Prosecutor -- excuse me, to the court in Belgrade, same

    11 paragraph:

    12 "During the whole time" -- presumably that is the

    13 whole time that you were in Celebici -- "there were two

    14 women imprisoned in Celebici, but in another building.

    15 They were Grozdana Cecez from Donje Selo near Konjic and

    16 Milojka Antic from the village of Ibar, Konjic

    17 municipality."

    18 Do you remember making that statement, sir?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Maybe you can help me with this, the year before on

    21 18th February 1993 in Belgrade, where you gave a

    22 statement to a group called the Serbian Counsel

    23 Information Centre, you said in your statement:

    24 "There were no women in the camp at Celebici."

    25 Those are inconsistent statements, are they not,

  111. 1 sir?

    2 A. Yes, the statements are inconsistent, they do not

    3 coincide, but please allow me to clear this up. May

    4 I be allowed to finish my sentence?

    5 MR. MORAN: If the Prosecutor wants to clear that up?

    6 MR. TURONE: I will ask, your Honour, to allow the witness to

    7 finish.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He might be able to tell you why.

    9 MR. MORAN: Can you clear up the inconsistencies between

    10 those two statements?

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These are facts which are available to

    12 the Trial Chamber, even without his clearing it, so let

    13 us hear him.

    14 MR. MORAN: Thank you, your Honour. Go ahead, sir.

    15 A. I would be glad to and it is very simple to clear up.

    16 When I was asked whether women were imprisoned in

    17 Celebici, in the sense of large-scale imprisonment,

    18 similar to the imprisoning of men, hundreds and tens,

    19 I said then there were not any women because women were

    20 not imprisoned with us, either in the tunnel or in

    21 number 6. That was the sense in which I meant that

    22 there were no women, there was no massive incarceration

    23 of women at the Celebici camp. That is the

    24 inconsistency.

    25 Q. So when you said there were no women, what you meant

  112. 1 were there were only two women, is that right?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. So "no" means "a few"? Sir, let us go on to another

    4 subject.

    5 During the break, one of my co-counsels pointed

    6 something out to me that may not have been clear to them

    7 and they asked me to put this question to you so I will

    8 ask you this question: in Bradina, when you were

    9 arrested, the people that took you into custody were

    10 members of the army and not the guards at the camp, is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. The people who arrested us and forced us to climb the

    13 truck were men in uniform, but the system and the way in

    14 which we were loaded on to the truck with our hands

    15 behind our heads, looking down, without looking left or

    16 right, anyone who did got additional blows, so I cannot

    17 claim with any certainty that there may not have been

    18 guards in Bradina who were later guards at Celebici.

    19 Q. But it was not the guard force from Celebici that

    20 arrested you, it was the army that then transported you

    21 to Celebici, is that correct?

    22 A. I said, I cannot answer that question with precision

    23 because the guards were wearing exactly the same uniform

    24 as the army.

    25 Q. Another thing, sir, is that in your evidence-in-chief,

  113. 1 when Mr. Turone was asking you questions, you testified

    2 that Mr. Mucic was the commander at Musala; do you

    3 remember testifying to that?

    4 A. Yes, I do.

    5 Q. Did you not say in your statements to the Serbian

    6 Information Centre, the one in February 1993, that a man

    7 named Ismet, I believe it is Hebibovic, was the

    8 commander at Musala?

    9 A. Hebibovic.

    10 Q. Did you testify he was the Musala commander?

    11 A. I do not know how exactly it is stated. He was in

    12 Musala what Delic was in Konjic, but the commander of

    13 both camps together with Mr. Mucic.

    14 Q. Did you not tell the Belgrade District Court in February

    15 or March 1994 that this same person was the commander at

    16 Musala?

    17 A. Yes, the commander in the sense of everyday life,

    18 everyday organisation and checking of presence and being

    19 together with the guards, in the sense that Delic was

    20 the daily organiser of everything happening in Celebici.

    21 Q. Sir, you are not familiar with the organisation charts

    22 for either one of those camps, are you? They did not

    23 share that with you, did they?

    24 A. No, they did not share it with us, but everybody knew.

    25 Q. So everybody was just assuming, right?

  114. 1 A. No, we were not assuming, it was not an assumption, we

    2 knew.

    3 Q. Because you had access to the Bosnian army orders

    4 assigning these people to things?

    5 A. No, certainly not.

    6 Q. One last thing, sir, and I believe this will finish us

    7 up and maybe get you out of here today, is --

    8 A. I hope so too.

    9 Q. I hope so too and I know you want to go back to your

    10 family and I appreciate that. Mr. Mucic accompanied you

    11 on the walk from tunnel number 9 to hangar number 6; do

    12 you remember testifying to that on direct?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. You did not mention that in either one of your

    15 statements to either the Serbian Information Centre in

    16 Belgrade or the Serbian District Court, did you?

    17 A. I did not say that, because I repeat again that all the

    18 data that were collected were intended to collect the

    19 names of the people who were killed, who were beaten,

    20 and not to gather information on such details as to who

    21 accompanied us from the tunnel to number 6. Most of the

    22 people who were collecting that information felt that

    23 this was an insignificant detail, the simple transfer

    24 from one structure to another within the camp compound.

    25 Q. Sir, not wanting to argue with you, but I would just

  115. 1 suggest to you that firstly the investigation before the

    2 District Court of Belgrade was a criminal investigation

    3 to find people to charge with offences, was it not?

    4 A. I do not know, I do not know whether it was criminal

    5 proceedings, I thought it was collecting information, so

    6 I am not familiar with the legal terms.

    7 Q. Well sir, I come from a very different legal system and

    8 I can be very wrong about that legal system too, but it

    9 seems that is what it says on the front. Would it

    10 surprise you, sir, that in that statement you have

    11 listed, in the English translation at least, almost two

    12 pages of people, a little less than two pages of people

    13 that you say were perpetrators of things? You list

    14 names like Osman Dedic, Padalovic, Kemo, Plosko,

    15 Turkovic. All those people were guards, were they not,

    16 at various places you were held custody?

    17 A. In the course of my testimony yesterday, I described in

    18 detail and with precision what I saw. As for the things

    19 that I did not personally observe, I did not mention

    20 them. Only what I saw or heard myself.

    21 MR. MORAN: Yes, sir. Your Honour, if I can go through my

    22 notes rather quickly, I think -- Scepo Gotovac, you

    23 testified about his death; you remember that?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you remember saying in your statements, at least in

  116. 1 your statement to the District Court of Belgrade, that a

    2 15 centimetre nail had been hammered into his forehead?

    3 A. I remember stating that on the basis of the testimony of

    4 people who were right next to him. I said very clearly

    5 and with precision yesterday where I was and where he

    6 was and how much I could see from the position I held in

    7 the direction of the body of Scepo Gotovac as it lay

    8 there.

    9 MR. MORAN: Sir, I am from the United States and we are,

    10 I think, the last country in the world to still use feet

    11 and inches and miles and crazy things like that, so I am

    12 probably not as familiar with centimetres as I ought to

    13 me, but it seems to me 15 centimetres seems to be about

    14 that long (indicates).

    15 Your Honour, my daughter is much better at it, she

    16 is learning it at school.

    17 Sir, I thank you very much and I pass the witness,

    18 your Honour.

    19 A. Thank you too.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Do you not think

    21 we should wait until tomorrow morning because we have

    22 now only five minutes left?

    23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it may be sufficient.

    24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, wonderful.

    25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good evening, Mr. R.

  117. 1 A. Good evening, Madam -- Ms., I apologise.

    2 Q. My name is Edina Residovic, I represent Mr. Zejnil

    3 Delalic, so that is sufficient for you to know during

    4 this evening, during our conversation.

    5 A. Fine, Madam.

    6 Q. Mr. R, I assume you must be very tired after very

    7 exhaustive examination and cross-examination?

    8 A. Yes, rather.

    9 Q. I thank you, Mr. R, for having made so many statements

    10 before today's testimony and you were also spoke very

    11 extensively during the examination-in-chief and

    12 cross-examination, so that you even answered some

    13 questions several times, so that I, as the Defence

    14 counsel of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, have no questions for

    15 you.

    16 A. I never mentioned Mr. Delalic, as I know nothing about

    17 him, nor did I know him before the war, nor did I meet

    18 him anywhere during the war. Thank you too.

    19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, goodbye.

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. Any

    21 re-examination?

    22 MR. TURONE: Your Honour, we have no further questions for

    23 re-examination, but should I ask that the two previous

    24 statements to the investigating judge in Belgrade and to

    25 the OTP, be entered just to show the extent to which

  118. 1 this witness has not been impeached through these two

    2 previous statements? Thank you.

    3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us know your reason for wanting to

    5 have it in. Let us have your argument.

    6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I would have no objection if it

    7 also includes the other statement we spent a long time

    8 talking about today, and that is the Serbian Counsel

    9 Information Centre. They have only offered two and all

    10 three should come.

    11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I agree. Definitely we will be finding

    12 a way of bringing in a particular statement. If the

    13 statement has any relevance at all, then they should all

    14 come in.

    15 MR. TURONE: All right, your Honour. No objection.

    16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us have the statements. Have you

    17 any other questions, other than tendering those

    18 statements?

    19 MR. OLUJIC: Nothing else, you have already ruled,

    20 your Honours. Thank you.

    21 MR. TURONE: The two statements were tendered and marked by

    22 Mr. Olujic.

    23 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we will find a clean copy of the

    24 third statement and deliver it to the Registry to be

    25 given whatever number it should be given by whoever it

  119. 1 is given by.

    2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The last statement or all of them?

    3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think there is a total of four

    4 statements involved in this, the one he gave to the

    5 Serbian Information Counsel, the one to the Serbian

    6 court, the one to the OTP and then Radoslav's

    7 statement. I have just been handed a clean copy of the

    8 last statement, I think we have got it solved, judge.

    9 If the usher can deliver this?

    10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Also mark this one so that we can know

    11 what its number is.

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked D13/3.

    13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is the end of today's

    14 proceedings. Thank you, Mr. R. You have done very

    15 well.

    16 A. May I be permitted to ask a question, if it is not out

    17 of order? I have a question to Mr. Olujic. I should

    18 like to see the document where it says that the cordon

    19 was 300 metres. Could I just see that line?

    20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: These proceedings are over. I was only

    21 trying to thank you very much --

    22 A. Thank you and I apologise.

    23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- and wish you very well on your

    24 voyage home. Thank you very much.

    25 A. Thank you.

  120. 1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have no proceedings tomorrow, and we

    2 are not likely to sit on Monday, because we have a

    3 plenary to attend.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: As your Honours please. There are no further

    5 witnesses available this week.

    6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then we will keep our fingers crossed.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: For next week.

    8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. As I said, we will not sit on

    9 Monday. We will meet on Tuesday.

    10 (5.35 pm)

    11 (Court adjourned until 10.00 am

    12 on Tuesday, 21st October 1997)