Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11188

1 Thursday, 16th April 1998

2 (10.08 a.m.)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies

4 and gentlemen. Can we have the appearances?

5 MR. NIEMANN: Good morning, your Honours. My

6 name is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

7 Ms. McHenry, Mr. Turone and Ms. Udo for the Prosecution.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, your Honours.

9 My name is Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for

10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, along with my colleague, Professor

11 Eugene O'Sullivan from Canada.

12 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, your Honours.

13 I am Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko

14 Mucic. Unfortunately, Mr. Zdravko Mucic is absent

15 today, because he is talking to his investigator from

16 Bosnia in the detention unit and he has not waived his

17 right for the hearing to continue in his absence. At

18 the same time, I wish to inform the court that

19 colleague Michael Greaves, at the request of Mr. Mucic,

20 has gone to the detention unit for further

21 consultations with the investigator.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Olujic, before you

23 sit down, what do you mean by he has not waived his

24 rights to be present? What do you mean by that?

25 Nobody made it uncomfortable for him to be here. He

Page 11189

1 was here, quietly, and everybody allowed him what ever

2 rights he could exercise. He on his own stayed away --

3 I do not know what he thought he was doing by that.

4 Nobody interfered with him exercising a right not to be

5 here, if he so wishes. Now you are telling the Trial

6 Chamber that he has not waived his rights. What do we

7 do when he does not come -- that the Trial Chamber

8 should wait for him?

9 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, I understand your

10 concern, and it is clear to me that the trial has to

11 respect certain rules. It is also clear that his

12 Defence counsel has to be present in the courtroom, but

13 all I am able to do is to convey the instructions of my

14 client.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They are instructions

16 you should keep to yourself and not make yourself look

17 like an extraordinary thing by relating it to anybody.

18 Telling this to anybody makes you look something

19 awkward -- telling the Trial Chamber how your client

20 voluntarily stayed away and telling the Trial Chamber

21 that he had not waived his right to be present. What

22 was he doing when he was staying away? The Trial

23 Chamber takes it that he has waived his right to be

24 present and we accept that waiver as sufficient for the

25 Trial Chamber to continue until he thinks, or by your

Page 11190

1 own wisdom you could make him see reason to attend.

2 Perhaps he has not understood that the Prosecution has

3 closed its case and it is his duty to make his

4 Defence. Until the gravity of what he is doing is

5 appreciated, you know what to tell him. Let us have

6 the appearances.

7 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, your Honours.

8 I am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

9 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Mr. Thomas Moran,

10 attorney from Houston, Texas.

11 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, your Honours.

12 I am Cynthia McMurrey and, along with Ms. Nancy Boler

13 from the United States, we represent Esad Landzo.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the witness

15 so that Ms.. Residovic will continue her

16 examination-in-chief?

17 (The witness entered court)

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please remind the

19 witness he is still on his oath.

20 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

21 are still under oath.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may it please

23 the court.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed

25 SEFKIJA KEVRIC (continued)

Page 11191

1 Examined by MS. RESIDOVIC (continued)

2 Q. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Kevric?

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Did you have a good rest after a very tiring

5 day yesterday?

6 A. Yes, I did, thank you.

7 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Kevric, explaining your role

8 with respect to the supply of food for the army, the

9 refugees and detained persons, you said that this was

10 the most difficult period of your life. Mr. Kevric,

11 could you please tell us what did you dispose of in --

12 what did you have at your disposal in your logistic

13 department to be able to prepare food for all these

14 persons, as you have been explaining to the court?

15 A. The logistic agency at the time was

16 responsible for the supply and preparation of food for

17 all the units of the TO, of the MUP, for a certain

18 number of refugees, the prison, and for the Igman

19 enterprise. We lacked the most essential food products

20 to be able to prepare normal meals. We did not have

21 any meat, fresh vegetables, potatoes, carrots, onions

22 and spices. As the responsible person who was quite

23 versed in these matters, I can say that, with the

24 articles that we had at our disposal, such as noodles,

25 soup and rice, we were not able to prepare food better

Page 11192

1 than we did.

2 The food that we did prepare could not even

3 be delivered to the units, or, rather, to the end

4 users, because we lacked the containers for

5 transporting it. We had five or six thermos containers

6 of 25 to 30 litres capacity each, which were faulty,

7 they could not close properly, so that, in the course

8 of transportation to the end users, the food would lose

9 25 to 30 per cent in quality.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kevric. Tell me, please, may

11 I ask you now what was the situation with respect to

12 flour and bread; did you, at the time, that is, in the

13 spring and summer of 1992, have sufficient quantities

14 of flour to be able to make bread?

15 A. We did have certain quantities of flour, but

16 they were nowhere near sufficient, in view of the large

17 number of people who depended on us for their meals,

18 not to mention the rest of the population and the

19 enormous number of refugees who were in Konjic at the

20 time, or were passing through Konjic to go on to

21 Jablanica in the direction of Croatia.

22 We had to reduce the minimum standard when

23 manufacturing bread, which meant, also, reducing the

24 quantity of bread per person when distributing the

25 bread among the end users. I already said yesterday

Page 11193

1 that we received the first quantity of flour in the

2 middle of August 1992.

3 Q. Mr. Kevric, can you tell me whether there were

4 any problems with the preparation of bread, that is, in

5 view of the constant threat of war and the repeated

6 shelling, did you have problems in baking the bread?

7 A. There were problems with the baking process,

8 because the municipal bakery of Konjic was in the same

9 direction as the post office and the railway station

10 and other buildings, which were of significance for the

11 Konjic municipality, so that the artillery targeting

12 from Borci hit the bakery on a number of occasions. It

13 was hit five or six times so that, in those periods, we

14 were unable to produce bread, nor could the bakery

15 function.

16 To provide the minimum amount of bread, we

17 obtained it from the Jablanica municipality, but these

18 were such small quantities. There were about 13,000

19 refugees in Jablanica, the population, the army, the

20 MUP and the HVO, so that the quantity we received, we

21 sought to distribute first among the hospital and the

22 wounded and the people on the front-lines of defence.

23 I myself, as the assistant commander for

24 logistics, and my staff, would often be left without

25 bread.

Page 11194

1 Q. Mr. Kevric, the food, such as it was and that

2 was prepared within your department, was it the same in

3 quality and quantity regardless of the users, or were

4 there any differences?

5 A. The food was prepared in the same place

6 according to the number of registered users, with the

7 help of lists or by phone, if there was no possibility

8 of delivering those lists, and then these forms were

9 checked, the food was prepared on the basis of

10 standards which were reduced significantly and upon the

11 completion of the preparation of food, all the users

12 were given the same.

13 Q. Thank you. You testified yesterday that, as

14 part of your duties, you visited the Celebici barracks

15 several times, or, rather, the underground depot for

16 the purpose of control and distribution of weapons held

17 there. Mr. Kevric, my question is: during these visits

18 of yours, did you meet any one of the detainees and

19 perhaps did you talk to any one of them?

20 A. When touring or visiting the people working

21 in the Celebici warehouse, I talked to Mr. -- actually

22 he was a prisoner at the time -- my colleague from

23 secondary school, Slavko Saran. On that occasion,

24 Slavko Saran did not tell me anything regarding the

25 conditions in the prison, nor did he mention any kind

Page 11195

1 of mistreatment. We simply spoke about our lives since

2 we had graduated from secondary school.

3 Q. Mr. Kevric, did you, at any point in time in

4 1992, apart from always going along the upper path to

5 the warehouse, did you ever enter the buildings in

6 which the prisoners were detained? Before that, may

7 I ask you whether you know -- whether you could show us

8 on this model where the prisoners were detained -- in

9 which of these hangars. If you know, will you please

10 point it out to us?

11 A. Yes, I do, I will show it to you. (Witness

12 indicates with pointer on model).

13 Q. Tell me, please, whether at any point in time

14 in 1992 you were close to this building, or actually

15 entered the building where the detainees were held?

16 A. May I say at the very outset that I had

17 visited this area before as well, because the road

18 leading to our warehouse is 20 to 30 metres away.

19 However, I cannot recall exactly -- it was in the

20 summer -- whether it was in August or September,

21 I really could not say -- a commission of the OECD came

22 to the TO staff, which was then housed in the 3rd of

23 March elementary school. They were received by the

24 commander and, after talking to the commander, Enver

25 Tahirovic and myself were asked by the commander to

Page 11196

1 take the commission to the Celebici prison.

2 Upon arrival at the Celebici prison,

3 I entered the prison for the first time. The prisoners

4 all got up when we entered, the delegation consisted of

5 four or five people. Heading the delegation was,

6 I think, a dark skinned gentleman -- whether he was

7 American or English, I really do not know -- and they

8 started talking to the prisoners in our presence.

9 The gentleman who headed the delegation asked

10 us whether we would agree to go out so that they could

11 talk to the prisoners. We agreed and we left. They

12 talked to the prisoners. When they came out, they did

13 not tell us anything about their conversations with the

14 prisoners, but, as far as I was able to judge, they

15 were satisfied and they thanked us.

16 After that, I stayed in the Celebici

17 warehouse and Mr. Enver Tahirovic took the members of

18 the commission to the Musala prison. What happened at

19 Musala, I really do not know. That is as much as I can

20 tell you.

21 Q. Mr. Kevric, as you have just told us that that

22 was the first time you entered the building in which

23 the prisoners were detained, tell us whether you

24 noticed on any one of these persons detained there any

25 kind of injuries, any evidence of disease, any visible

Page 11197

1 traces that would distinguish them from other people

2 that you came across in the same period?

3 A. I will tell you truthfully the way it was.

4 First of all, I had never been in a prison, so when

5 I entered the prison, we stopped at the very entrance

6 to the prison so that we did not really have time to

7 look around. Perhaps if we had been present throughout

8 that conversation, I could tell you more. I was really

9 unable to see anything in the short period while we

10 entered, because after a minute or two we left.

11 Q. Mr. Kevric, who actually gave you the order to

12 take this delegation to the prison?

13 A. I received an oral order from my commander,

14 Mr. Esad Ramic.

15 Q. Mr. Kevric, did this delegation ask you or

16 Mr. Enver Tahirovic in your presence any questions with

17 regard to the management and the running of the prison?

18 A. No, this commission indeed did not ask us any

19 questions. We simply went in our vehicle and the

20 commission went in their own vehicle. We came to the

21 prison, we entered it, and that was it. I really

22 cannot say anything else about that.

23 Q. Mr. Kevric, did you arrive in front of this

24 structure at that time, or did you engage in

25 conversation with some other person -- some third

Page 11198

1 persons on that occasion?

2 A. At this time, I really cannot remember and

3 say whether anybody from the administration of the

4 camp, or I should say the prison, was present with us.

5 That, I cannot speak to -- I cannot say anything about

6 it.

7 Q. Were you personally or somebody from your

8 staff -- did you ever receive any written report on the

9 visit of this delegation?

10 A. I never found out, as a member of the staff,

11 anything about the visit of this delegation, and

12 I believe that we would have been told something about

13 it, because we were accompanying this delegation.

14 Q. Thank you. A moment ago, you said that your

15 school friend, Saran, did not complain to you about any

16 abuse are regard to himself or any of his colleagues.

17 Now, let me ask you something else. First, in general,

18 you explained how the food was prepared and how it was

19 delivered to the prisons. Did you receive any

20 complaints from the users as to the quality and

21 quantity of the food delivered to them?

22 A. Yes, there were a number of complaints from

23 all the users starting with refugees, our soldiers on

24 the front-lines, and from the administration, that is,

25 the prison staff. Especially difficult was the

Page 11199

1 situation of the people who were delivering this food

2 to the end users. They are the ones who bore the brunt

3 of these complaints. Frequently, they simply stated

4 they would not transport this food to these places,

5 because they cannot explain to the people what the

6 situation was really like.

7 The fighters who would meet us thought that

8 there was more food available and they were always

9 requesting it, but we did not have more food and, had

10 we had more, we would have obviously given it to them.

11 I can only add that the surrounding areas, that is, the

12 villagers lived a little bit better, because they had

13 their own gardens, they had their own livestock.

14 However, the urban population lived in miserable

15 conditions, so from what we had available, we could not

16 provide them with normal rations, so the entire

17 population of this town -- and I believe the situation

18 was similar in other towns -- did suffer physically

19 during the war. I used to weigh 87 kilograms. In this

20 period, I weighed 72 kilograms.

21 Q. Mr. Kevric, it is well known to this Trial

22 Chamber that the detained persons were from the

23 surrounding villages, so my question to you is: when

24 you came to the barracks on your business, could you

25 ever see, and if you could, when could you do that --

Page 11200

1 did you see members of the families who were coming to

2 visit the inmates?

3 A. I can say here I cannot give you the exact

4 date when this was, but I know that this was during the

5 summer. As I was passing through to the warehouses at

6 Celebici, in front of the barracks there was a sizeable

7 number or amount of people -- 30 to 50 persons -- for

8 the most part women and the elderly -- with shopping

9 bags in their hands. I cannot say what was in those

10 bags, whether that was food, cigarettes, or a change of

11 clothes. They would enter and they would drop them

12 off. I cannot say whether they were able to get in

13 touch with the detainees, but I can say with certainty

14 what I have said.

15 As to the Musala prison, I cannot speak to it

16 at all, because I never entered it until the end of the

17 war when the sports hall underwent renovation.

18 Q. Thank you. Let me take you back to what your

19 school friend Saran said -- in fact, he did not say

20 anything about his position or the position of other

21 detained persons, so, Mr. Kevric, tell me, during 1992,

22 as a member of the staff, did you find in any other way

23 that persons in the prison were abused or mistreated in

24 any other inhumane way?

25 A. Even though I went to the warehouse in

Page 11201

1 Celebici quite often, I never saw it, and I came during

2 the day and during the night time, depending on the

3 needs of the units that were on the front-lines, but,

4 personally, in the barracks compound, I never saw any

5 kind of abuse.

6 Q. Mr. Kevric, do you know whether there were

7 commissions which were supposed to interrogate these

8 detained persons?

9 A. I stated yesterday that Mr. Goran Lokas, my

10 school friend from high school, was appointed the

11 president of this commission. I really did not know

12 the other members of the commission, because it is not

13 within my domain, so I could not speak about anyone

14 else from that commission here.

15 Q. Did you personally ever hear, either from

16 Goran Lokas or from anyone else, that the detainees

17 were mistreated in any way?

18 A. No. When entering the barracks compound,

19 I would enter in a vehicle, I would go straight to the

20 warehouse where the equipment and materiel was.

21 Q. Mr. Kevric, were you personally ever shown or

22 delivered any kind of report by this commission, or did

23 you ever learn that any kind of report of the

24 commission which investigated the detained persons ever

25 reached the TO staff and a report in which complaints

Page 11202

1 from the prisoners were contained?

2 A. As a member of the staff I never learned

3 about any report on mistreatment of prisoners, or bad

4 conditions in the prison while I was a member of the

5 staff. I simply do not know whether this report ever

6 reached the staff.

7 Q. In 1992, did you ever hear that any person

8 died or was killed in the Celebici prison?

9 A. Yes, I again cannot remember the date, but in

10 Konjic I did hear that Keljo was killed attempting to

11 escape. His name is Keljo and he went to the secondary

12 economic school while I went to the high school, and

13 I really do not know of any other cases.

14 Q. Mr. Kevric, did you ever go to the barracks or

15 to the warehouses with Mr. Delalic?

16 A. No, I never entered the Celebici barracks

17 with Mr. Zejnil Delalic. I never saw him in the

18 Celebici barracks, except on 16 August -- I believe it

19 was 16 August when there was a solemn oath ceremony.

20 On that occasion, Mr. Delalic congratulated all present

21 on having taken the solemn oath.

22 Q. Mr. Kevric, as a member of the staff, do you

23 know whether Zejnil Delalic was a person of superior

24 authority over the prison?

25 A. As a member of the staff, I did not know that

Page 11203

1 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was the superior person in the

2 prison.

3 Q. Did he have any authority over the prison?

4 A. Since I do not know whether he was a person

5 of superior authority, I cannot say that he was not,

6 but my understanding is, if a person is not a person in

7 superior authority, then he does not have authority

8 over the prison.

9 Q. Can you please tell me whether you know that

10 your staff ever gave any authority to Zejnil Delalic

11 with respect to the prison?

12 A. As far as I know, as a member of the staff,

13 the staff never gave such authority.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. This concludes my

15 examination-in-chief of this witness.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?

17 MR. OLUJIC: No, your Honours, no questions.

18 MR. MORAN: May it please the court.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

20 Mr. Moran

21 Cross-examined by MR. MORAN

22 Q. Thank you, your Honour.

23 Good morning, Colonel.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. I have just a very, very few questions for

Page 11204

1 you, and I think we may be able to get through with

2 this and get you home fairly early. The first thing

3 I would like to ask you about is, was there an incident

4 some time in the middle of July, maybe 12 or 13 July,

5 where some shelling caused a complete break in the

6 supply of bread, where there was no bread available at

7 all for several days?

8 A. I really cannot say now whether that was

9 12th, 13th or mid July, but I do say that the bakery

10 was shelled and that, during that period, bread could

11 not be baked.

12 Q. And no-one had any bread during that period

13 -- not the soldiers, the refugees, the prisoners?

14 A. The bakery was hit, so you could not work

15 there, so people who were there were exposed to

16 shelling -- shelling was taking place in the morning,

17 in the afternoon, sometimes at night, so the production

18 was not possible.

19 Q. Colonel, I am going to ask you a little bit

20 about the camp itself. You are familiar with the

21 layout of both the Celebici barracks and similar

22 facilities that were run by the former JNA, are you?

23 A. I am completely familiar with the Celebici

24 barracks, because, on 7 January 1993, I became the

25 commander of the logistics base of the 4th Corps, and

Page 11205

1 my base was at the Celebici terminal, so that I do know

2 every single structure there; in other words, I did

3 become familiar with the barracks -- I did become

4 completely acquainted or familiar with the Celebici

5 barracks after 7 January 1993.

6 Q. When the barracks were designed -- and if you

7 do not know, "I do not know" is a fair answer -- do you

8 know how many people it was envisioned would be

9 stationed on the barracks, roughly?

10 A. I already said that the Celebici barracks was

11 envisaged as a terminal for storing fuels. It was not

12 envisaged for housing any personnel, except the

13 personnel which was providing security and

14 administration of the terminal.

15 Q. So you are talking, what, 10, 20, 30 people?

16 A. No, I did not have any information regarding

17 the formation that would be deployed there. I only had

18 plans about the structures that were there.

19 Q. And the structures were designed to feed and

20 house a relatively small number of soldiers?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So, it would have kitchens for a small number

23 of soldiers, toilets for a small number of soldiers,

24 showers -- those kinds of things?

25 A. Yes. There was the administration building

Page 11206

1 of the terminal and for the personnel who was providing

2 security for the facility -- there was a small kitchen,

3 there was a small mess hall for about 15 people, and

4 rooms for accommodation of them. There was one toilet

5 and one bathroom.

6 Q. Some of the other things that go with having

7 a lot of people around -- both in the Celebici barracks

8 itself and in Konjic -- did you have plenty of, for

9 instance, eating utensils, plates and forks and knives

10 that you could hand out and issue to troops or

11 detainees, or refugees, or was there a shortage of

12 those kinds of things?

13 A. I believe that yesterday I said that, when we

14 took over the kitchen at the Igman company, we found

15 only about 100 spoons. We did not find any other

16 flatware -- we were able to provide only about 50

17 plates from the Unevit department store and indeed we

18 had no other utensils. All our soldiers brought

19 utensils from their homes. They even brought with them

20 their blankets, so we were not in a position to provide

21 anything to anyone.

22 Q. That was the next question I was going to

23 ask, Colonel -- blankets -- there was not a warehouse

24 full of blankets some place in Konjic that you could

25 hand out to soldiers and refugees and detainees, was

Page 11207

1 there?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought he had

4 inclusively mentioned things like that when he spoke

5 about soldiers bringing their own blankets.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, your Honour.

7 When you issued food every day to the army

8 units and the refugees and the prison, did you have a

9 requisition form that was filled out every day so that

10 there would be some kind of a paper trail or was it

11 just done off the lists and you just shipped the food

12 out as best you could?

13 A. The quartermaster officer in charge and his

14 deputy were involved in this issue. As far as I know,

15 they issued food and they were supposed to issue food

16 in a way that they had to sign off a requisition form,

17 which was available at our warehouse.

18 Q. Do you recall whether or not on a few

19 occasions there might have been unusual types of things

20 -- food arriving in Konjic, perhaps canned meat might

21 be available on just a few occasions?

22 A. I think I explained yesterday that there were

23 some supplies of sugar in Konjic, so the war presidency

24 swapped some of the supplies of sugar for some canned

25 meat and I believe some canned fish, so we were able to

Page 11208

1 issue soldiers some of that, together with tea so that

2 there would be some variety of food. What I want to

3 say is that, even on that occasion, because we had

4 small quantities of canned meat, especially the 75 gram

5 meat paste cans, they were split three ways.

6 Q. And when those were issued to the soldiers,

7 those supplies of meat were also issued to the

8 detainees at the prison?

9 A. I said that the food was prepared in one

10 location and we had a menu for the day and, whatever

11 was on the menu, that was distributed or issued to

12 everyone. There were occasions when the kitchen was

13 also shelled, and it was located in the Igman factory

14 where ammunition was produced, so those facilities were

15 shelled and sometimes it happened that there was

16 shelling, so we had to issue ready-to-eat food to all

17 our end users on certain occasions.

18 Q. If I were to show you some forms that appear

19 to be requisitions for canned meat or meat pate, could

20 you look at those and tell me if those are the kind of

21 requisition forms that you were used to seeing and the

22 kinds that you used?

23 A. I can look at them and then I will tell you.

24 MR. MORAN: Would the usher help -- I have

25 three different sets of documents -- I have copies for

Page 11209

1 the court and for the Prosecutor, also. (Handed).

2 While the Registrar is preparing the others,

3 those were the kinds of requisitions you used -- you

4 have to say "Yes" or "No", you just cannot nod your

5 head. The court reporter cannot write down a head

6 nod.

7 A. Yes, we used these forms -- the person who

8 received the goods and the person who issued the goods,

9 and these are the forms that we used.

10 MR. MORAN: What were the numbers of those

11 three exhibits?

12 JUDGE JAN: You are marking them for

13 identification?

14 MR. MORAN: Just for identification. I am

15 not going to introduce them at this time.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The bill number 60 is

17 Defence Exhibit D23/3; the bill number 44 is Defence

18 Exhibit D24/3; and the last one is Defence Exhibit

19 D25/3.

20 MR. MORAN: Those are the kinds of

21 requisition forms, all three of those?

22 A. Gentlemen, your Honours, may I make an

23 additional observation?

24 MR. MORAN: Surely.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

Page 11210

1 THE WITNESS: These are forms when we are

2 issuing dry food from the supplementary warehouse, but

3 the cooked meals are not included in this form. Bread,

4 which was in the bakery and not in the kitchen, it was

5 also issued on the basis of these forms. That is all

6 I want to say, to make it clear that we were driving

7 from three different points -- cooked food was in one

8 place, bread in another and dry packed food in a third

9 place.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

11 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Colonel.

12 Those three forms that you just looked at would be for

13 the issue of special supplementary food that would not

14 be in the normal menu?

15 A. Yes, they were used for the issue of cleaning

16 devices -- sugar and other things that were needed in

17 the prison.

18 MR. MORAN: So you issued --

19 MS. McHENRY: Since Mr. Moran is not going to

20 introduce these into evidence, obviously there is no

21 position for me to object. I do want the record to

22 reflect, however, that these documents have not

23 previously been provided to the Prosecution.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I personally saw

25 them for the first time late yesterday afternoon.

Page 11211

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose even with

2 that, you could have this morning indicated to the

3 Prosecution --

4 MR. MORAN: Yes, and my apologies, but one of

5 the reasons I am not tendering them in evidence --

6 I just wanted them marked and identified -- was to give

7 the Prosecutor time to deal with them if the Prosecutor

8 so chose.

9 Colonel, you said that you issued cleaning

10 supplies and such things to the prison. You issued,

11 for instance, soap for cleaning the facilities and soap

12 for washing your body -- those kinds of things were all

13 issued to the prisoners?

14 A. We issued from our warehouse as much as we

15 had, and I cannot assert whether the soap reached the

16 prisoners or not, because that was not within my area

17 of responsibility.

18 MR. MORAN: That is fine. Your Honour, I will

19 pass the witness, thank you very much.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

21 Any other cross-examination?

22 MS. McMURREY: Because of the skilful,

23 detailed and precise examination of my colleagues, we

24 have no further questions. Thank you.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Cross-examination by

Page 11212

1 the Prosecution?

2 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, my name is Teresa

3 McHenry and I am going to ask you some questions. If

4 you do not understand the question, please let me know

5 and I will rephrase it.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. McHENRY

8 Q. Thank you. Sir, you mentioned earlier that,

9 before testifying, you used a notebook that you had to

10 learn certain dates to refresh your memory about

11 certain dates; is that correct?

12 A. It is correct -- when handing over my duty,

13 and after making my statement, I looked through my

14 documentation and I stand by what I said yesterday.

15 Q. Sir, did you bring your notebook with you to

16 The Hague?

17 A. No, it is a working notebook and I did not

18 bring it.

19 Q. Sir, when you return, will you allow a

20 representative from the Office of the Prosecutor to

21 inspect that notebook?

22 A. I can have copied the parts that refer to my

23 testimony.

24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Sir, we would ask for any

25 part of your notebook that dealt in any way with a

Page 11213

1 subject that you testified about.

2 Sir, let me ask that you be shown Defence

3 Exhibit 165. This is the document, Sir, that was shown

4 to you yesterday and in which you stated that all the

5 persons on the various lists were part of the TO staff

6 -- part of the TO. (Handed).

7 Sir, I just want to direct your attention to

8 the page, the attachment of the document that has the

9 heading, "Territorial Defence Headquarters Number

10 05/35-8", dated 28/4/92 -- it is a list of newly

11 enlisted civilians serving in the army?

12 A. No, I explained yesterday that this is a list

13 of persons employed in the municipal staff of Konjic,

14 who were working in the staff before 15 April 1992.

15 Q. Maybe I misunderstood you there. What does

16 it mean when it says, "List of newly enlisted civilians

17 serving in the army" -- were these persons that as of

18 15 April were serving in the TO?

19 A. No, I do not understand the question. I can

20 comment on all these documents again, if you wish. The

21 first document is a list of persons employed in the

22 municipal staff of Konjic up to 15 April 1992.

23 Q. Maybe just to save time, you could explain to

24 me again what this document is, dated 28 April 1992?

25 A. Let me say, once again, it is a list of

Page 11214

1 persons employed in the municipal staff of Konjic

2 working there before the war, because we had a

3 Territorial Defence in the former system, and they were

4 members of the TO staff. I do not know what is

5 unclear.

6 Q. Well, what is unclear to me is when it

7 says "newly enlisted civilians", does that mean that

8 those people had just joined the TO staff?

9 A. I cannot see this "newly enlisted civilians",

10 where it says that. That is why I am trying to explain

11 the whole document. Maybe we will lose less time in

12 that way.

13 Q. It is the list that the first name on it is

14 Ivica Azinovic?

15 A. Yes, that is 0/35-8, dated 28 April 1992 --

16 "newly enlisted civilians". I explained yesterday,

17 because citizens of Serb ethnicity left the staff we

18 needed to fill in the vacancies and these are the

19 people who were enlisted as members of the staff.

20 Q. So let me clarify -- do I understand you to

21 say Ivica Azinovic and Vladislav Andjelic were both

22 members of the TO staff?

23 A. At the time they were members -- they were

24 members of the TO staff and that is what appears on the

25 list.

Page 11215

1 Q. Thank you. Sir, that is all the questions

2 I have for that chart.

3 Sir, am I correct that you had the position

4 of deputy commander of logistics for all of 1992 --

5 sorry, not for all of 1992, once you got the position

6 in April, you had it for the rest of 1992?

7 A. Yes. I said yesterday from 17 April until

8 the end of 1992 I was assistant commander for

9 logistics. Sometimes in the orders it says "for the

10 rear" but it is the same thing, really, for logistics.

11 Q. And you indicated that, from your position,

12 you were able to say that the chart prepared by

13 Mr. Cerovac in 1998 was an accurate reflection of the

14 joint command staff in May and June 1992; correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. Are you able yourself personally to be able

17 to verify and remember all the names that were on

18 Mr. Cerovac's chart, or with respect to some of the

19 positions or some of the names, did you rely on

20 Mr. Cerovac's chart?

21 A. No -- no, I do not understand the question.

22 MS. McHENRY: Sir, you were shown a chart

23 yesterday and it was prepared by someone else,

24 Mr. Midhat Cerovac, in 1998, and you indicated, though,

25 that you could verify that all the names and all the

Page 11216

1 positions on that chart were correct, and my question

2 is: are you yourself able to remember and verify all

3 the names, or with respect to some of them did you have

4 to rely on Mr. Cerovac's chart, because you yourself do

5 not remember or do not know.

6 JUDGE JAN: Why do you not give him the

7 chart?

8 MS. McHENRY: I can give him the chart. I am

9 now trying to find out whether he knows the information

10 without the chart.

11 JUDGE JAN: Unless he has a chart before

12 him, how can he say anything about it?

13 MS. McHENRY: If he does not know, he can ask

14 for the chart.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it is a little

16 awkward, the type of question you are asking. Are you

17 suggesting whether he accepts the positions in respect

18 of which people are put down in that chart as a correct

19 one -- I think this is what you wanted to say.

20 MS. McHENRY: Yes. Let me rephrase it.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put it that way.

22 MS. McHENRY: Are you able to say, with

23 respect to each and every name and position that is on

24 the chart, from your own memory, that that is in fact

25 correct -- that the chart is correct with respect to

Page 11217

1 every person and every name, and if you need to look at

2 the chart, certainly, you can?

3 A. I know very well, because we would sit around

4 a conference table when this organisational chart was

5 made, and the names put in, and then the typist typed

6 it out and it was posted on our board. Now, for me to

7 be able to speak about each individual from number 1 to

8 number 20, it is difficult, but if you give me the

9 document, I will tell you who was where at the time,

10 whether he has left the army now, what duty he is

11 performing, whether somebody has died in the meantime

12 and so on.

13 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry, Sir, are you saying

14 that this organisational chart that you are referring

15 to, that was posted on your board, is this a chart that

16 was made in 1992, or is this the chart that was made in

17 1998?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which chart are you

19 talking about. Let him have the chart?

20 JUDGE JAN: It is unfair to the witness.

21 Show him the chart.

22 MS. McHENRY: With respect to this question,

23 I am only asking because I did not understand his

24 answer.

25 Sir, you just stated that there was a chart,

Page 11218

1 that everyone got around a conference table and put the

2 names in and then it was posted on the board. What

3 chart are you referring to -- a chart that was made in

4 1992?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, if I

6 understand you correctly, you are referring to the

7 chart made by Midhat Cerovac.

8 MS. McHENRY: I think the witness may be

9 referring to another chart. That is what I am trying

10 to clarify.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You started with this

12 particular chart of Mr. Cerovac. This is the chart he

13 is talking about. Let him speak to it.

14 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask the witness be given

15 the chart, 169.

16 Sir, while it is being given to you, let me

17 just ask a separate question. Was there an

18 organisational chart in 1992, in other words, when you

19 were working in the joint command, was there an

20 organisational chart?

21 A. There was a chart, and on the basis of that

22 chart -- so this chart was made in 1998, but on the

23 basis of the chart compiled in 1992 this chart was

24 probably compiled by Mr. Cerovac. I claim that this

25 chart corresponds to the situation as it was in 1992.

Page 11219

1 Q. Do you know whether or not the chart from

2 1992 still exists?

3 A. I do not know. As I abandoned the municipal

4 TO staff on 7 January 1993, I really could not tell.

5 Q. Thank you. Sir, there is a particular

6 position I am interested in. Who was head of security

7 in the joint command staff?

8 A. The staff -- it is rather difficult to say

9 now, because the headquarters changed places from

10 Musala where the municipal staff of Konjic was located

11 before the war, then the war presidency, then Rudar,

12 then the 3rd March primary school, so it is really

13 difficult for me to say who was in charge of security

14 in the TO staff, whether they were soldiers from the

15 headquarters, from the command, were they jointly

16 organised by the TO and HVO -- I could not tell you.

17 MS. McHENRY: I think maybe my question was

18 not clear. Within the staff of the joint command, was

19 there somebody who was in charge of security.

20 JUDGE JAN: Why do you not give him the

21 time frame?

22 MS. McHENRY: In May and June of 1992?

23 A. Of course there was a person in charge of

24 security -- there had to be somebody in charge of the

25 guards, who may have numbered 5, 10 or 15 people.

Page 11220

1 JUDGE JAN: Who was in charge of security in

2 May, as counsel asked you.

3 THE WITNESS: No, I could not say now.

4 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask that you look at the

5 chart, which I think has been provided to you. Am

6 I correct that, according to the chart, although you

7 yourself are not able to confirm it, Mr. Goran Lokas was

8 head of the security organ and Mr. Sacir Pajic was his

9 deputy; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. I did not understand

11 your question. Somebody who is responsible for

12 security and who answers to the security body in the

13 staff, there is a body for security, and this man

14 belongs to the staff, but, for personal security, the

15 security officer may be responsible, so there was a

16 misunderstanding and maybe this answers your question.

17 Q. Sir, am I correct that Mr. Goran Lokas had an

18 accident at the end of May and did not return to the TO

19 -- to the joint command staff?

20 A. Whether Mr. Lokas had a traffic accident or

21 not, I really do not know, but he did not come back.

22 Q. And, after he left -- when he left and did

23 not come back, who was then head of the security organ

24 for the joint command?

25 A. I cannot tell you now. Appointments are made

Page 11221

1 by the commander or deputy commander and I really do

2 not know whether it was the officer in the security

3 organ or not.

4 Q. Sir, do you know, was there a Mr. Sacir Pajic

5 who had some sort of position in the joint command?

6 A. Sacir Pajic, as can be seen from this

7 organisational chart, he was in the security

8 organisation and as an officer.

9 Q. Let me be clear, I am not now asking you what

10 is on the chart. If it helps you remember, you can

11 look at it, but I am asking you what you yourself know

12 from your own information, and are you able to confirm

13 or are you just not in a position to know whether or

14 not in fact Mr. Pajic had a position in the joint

15 command in May and June of 1992? If you do not know,

16 that is fine, all you have to say is you do not know?

17 A. I do not know, because that was not within

18 the area of my responsibility or my competence, so

19 I really do not know anything about that.

20 Q. So, am I correct that, with respect to who

21 was in command and what kind of authority they had, you

22 know those persons who were in your area of

23 responsibility or competence, but you do not know about

24 other persons or other positions?

25 A. I know with respect to the areas in which

Page 11222

1 I participated, meetings I attended. If decisions were

2 being taken about appointments or some other tasks or

3 combat operations, I know about the meetings

4 I attended, but the security organ did not know what

5 the logistics organ was doing at a given moment -- it

6 was not possible. Everybody could not know what

7 everybody else was doing. Each one of us had his own

8 area of responsibility, so I did not always have to

9 know where an artillery piece would be positioned at a

10 certain point in time.

11 Q. Sir, you should realise that when I am asking

12 these questions they are not critical in any way --

13 they are just trying to ascertain the facts. So if you

14 can give a simple answer, you should feel free to do

15 so. Unless you feel that the answer is not somehow

16 correct, you really do not need to explain it, because

17 the questions are not meant to be critical.

18 Sir, would you agree with me that the TO

19 commanders in May and June of 1992, Mr. Ramic, Boric and

20 Mr. Ramic again, were appointed by the war presidency,

21 or do you not know?

22 A. No, the war presidency could never appoint a

23 commander of the TO staff. The war presidency could

24 only nominate or propose somebody, but not actually

25 appoint.

Page 11223

1 Q. So, if Mr. Delalic, Ramic and Boric said

2 otherwise, they would be mistaken?

3 A. I do not understand the question -- could you

4 repeat it, please?

5 Q. Sir, let me go on. Sir, did I understand you

6 correctly that the joint command operated in May and

7 June of 1992 and then stopped operating in the end of

8 June; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct -- it was formed on the

10 12th.

11 Q. Sir, if you need to explain to have it be a

12 fair answer, feel free to do so, but often when I am

13 asking these questions, I am just confirming this so

14 that you know where I am going with my next question

15 and you do not need to repeat something that you have

16 already said yesterday, just in the hope we can move

17 this along a little faster.

18 During the time the joint command was

19 functioning, did the TO retain its own command staff,

20 or was the only command staff operating in Konjic the

21 joint command staff?

22 A. The joint command, as I explained yesterday,

23 was the body in charge of combat operations.

24 Q. Did the TO, though, maintain its own separate

25 command staff, just purely within the TO, so that

Page 11224

1 certain persons might have had a position in the TO

2 command staff, but not had a position in the joint

3 command staff?

4 A. I explained yesterday that the commander of

5 HVO units, chief of staff Dinko Zebic and the commander

6 was the commander of the TO units -- the commanding

7 officers belonging to the joint command were appointed

8 by joint signatures, whereas in the units that was not

9 the case -- Commander Zebic appointed his commanding

10 officers in his units with his signature and Mr. Ramic

11 appointed commanding officers of units with his

12 signature, and this applied only to the joint command.

13 Q. So then if I am correct, in May and June of

14 1992, you were deputy commander of logistics for the

15 joint TO and then you were also deputy commander of

16 logistics for the TO for Mr. Ramic or Mr. Boric, as the

17 case may be; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, I was not commander but the logistics

19 organ [sic] -- but regarding the actual activities,

20 because the supplies we had were not the same -- the

21 HVO had separate supplies, so we did not receive our

22 resources from the same warehouses. They received

23 theirs from Grude, and they had to have their own man

24 responsible, so there were parallel activities. In

25 those areas in which agreement was reached, the

Page 11225

1 commanders and deputy commanders and chief of staffs

2 would sign, but where there was no agreement, then

3 either Zebic himself or Ramic himself would sign.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will break

5 and reassemble at 12 noon.

6 (11.33 a.m.)

7 (A short break)

8 (The witness entered court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind the witness he

10 is still on his oath.

11 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

12 are still under oath.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

14 Ms. McHenry.

15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Does the witness still have the chart? I may

17 be asking him a question in a minute about the chart

18 (Handed).

19 We were talking, Sir, about what happened at

20 the joint command and the fact that it ended at the end

21 of June. So, in July then, after the joint command

22 ended, the existing command structure of the TO, which

23 continued to exist, then became the only command

24 structure within the TO -- if you do not understand

25 that question, please feel free to tell me?

Page 11226

1 A. I did not understand the question.

2 Q. Sir, you indicated that, at the end of June,

3 the joint command ceased to function; correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. And you indicated that, on 3 August, Mr. Ramic

6 formally appointed persons such as you to your

7 positions; is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. And, am I correct, though, that in July the

10 TO had a command structure which was different than the

11 joint command structure?

12 A. Yes, the members of the HVO who were in the

13 joint command were no longer present. That means that

14 we had the TO command structure as it was before.

15 Q. Thank you, Sir. When, on 3 August, Mr. Ramic

16 appointed you to that position, you had already been

17 filling that position for a significant period of time;

18 correct?

19 A. I explained earlier that I was in the joint

20 command and since there were parallel structures, there

21 was the HVO staff and the TO staff and then they

22 overlapped, so there was personnel in both these

23 separate staffs, but, obviously, there were certain

24 personnel changes -- some people would be moved or

25 transferred to another duty and so on.

Page 11227

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What counsel said was

2 not really a question. She was really making a

3 statement that you had been continuously there for all

4 the period -- before the joint command and after the

5 joint command, you were still the same deputy chief of

6 logistics. You held the same position all through?

7 A. Yes, I did.

8 MS. McHENRY: Am I correct that nothing

9 changed on 3 August when you received your formal

10 appointment from Mr. Ramic, at least as far as your

11 position went?

12 A. No, nothing changed in terms of my duties.

13 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that, whatever

14 the reality of the situation, if you just look at this

15 chart that you talked about, Defence Exhibit 169, the

16 chart would indicate that Mr. Zebic was subordinate to

17 the TO commander. Would you agree with me that if one

18 were only to look at the chart, that is what the chart

19 would reflect?

20 A. According to the chart, yes, but if the

21 agreement was not reached, then it would not.

22 Q. So, you would agree with me then that the

23 chart does not accurately reflect the reality of the

24 situation as it existed in Konjic at that time?

25 A. I already stated that there were parallel

Page 11228

1 structures. I explained that if there was agreement,

2 then, yes, but if no agreement was reached, then no.

3 Q. And, indeed, that is why both the TO

4 commander and the HVO commander both signed orders; is

5 that correct?

6 A. As we saw, they did sign the documents if the

7 agreement had been reached, so, in the case of the

8 Borci operation, the agreement was not reached and

9 Mr. Zebic did not sign it.

10 Q. You would agree with me that there were great

11 difficulties caused by the need to coordinate between

12 the HVO and the TO?

13 A. There were difficulties with respect to

14 coordination.

15 Q. You would agree with me that there were

16 difficulties caused by the frequent changing of the TO

17 commander?

18 A. It is normal that, whenever a commander

19 changes, there are certain difficulties until the

20 commander becomes familiar with all the aspects of his

21 job, especially if such a change happens suddenly. For

22 instance, if the commander is injured or is taken ill

23 and has to suddenly leave his post.

24 Q. And you would agree with me that there were

25 difficulties caused by the problems in communicating

Page 11229

1 with Sarajevo?

2 A. There were problems in communications with

3 Sarajevo, because the communications did not work.

4 Q. And you would agree with me, Sir, that there

5 were many things that were happening in Konjic that

6 were not in accord with traditional military doctrine?

7 A. If you could, would you make your question

8 more specific, please?

9 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that, in all

10 respects, such as the operation of the joint command,

11 the structure of the army, the way in which orders were

12 given and received, that this all -- all of it was

13 taking place in accordance with standard military

14 procedure?

15 A. In my testimony, I have already said that the

16 HVO did not accept the TO staff as the supreme

17 command. Their superior command was the staff in

18 Grude, so the joint command as a joint command did not

19 exist anywhere in our regulation -- it did not provide

20 for a joint command. It should have been part of the

21 TO Konjic. If that is the answer you are looking for.

22 Q. Your answer is "yes"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You would agree with me that --

25 A. But --

Page 11230

1 Q. -- there were many people --

2 A. Yes, but only on this question that I just

3 mentioned.

4 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that there were

5 many people in Konjic who were not even aware of what

6 the standard military procedure was; in other words,

7 there were people in the TO, for instance, who were not

8 always experienced officers?

9 A. Yes, because it was -- we had a war, so some

10 people who were appointed to certain positions did not

11 possess all the military knowledge necessary.

12 Q. Sir, you would also agree with me that,

13 during this time, there was not always a strict

14 division between civilian and military functions?

15 A. There was a division as of 17 April 1992 --

16 it was clearly defined what the role of the war

17 presidency and the civilian authority was and what was

18 the role of the TO Konjic staff.

19 MS. McHENRY: And it is your testimony, Sir,

20 that starting on 17 April, everyone knew exactly what

21 the law provided and everyone followed it exactly -- is

22 that your testimony.

23 JUDGE JAN: Which law?

24 MS. McHENRY: He has referred to the law as

25 of 17 April 1992. I am referring to his answer, your

Page 11231

1 Honour.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness did not refer to

3 a law but to a date, and so he is talking about the

4 work or activities rather than the regulations and in

5 that respect I think it is not a correct question.

6 MS. McHENRY: Sir, what exactly happened on

7 17 April? You will need to explain it -- was there a

8 new law, was there a new regulation, was there a

9 reorganisation -- I do not need an explanation, but can

10 you clarify what you are referring to?

11 A. I already stated this yesterday -- from 17

12 April on, the commander of the TO staff is not a member

13 of the war presidency as was the case in the previous

14 system in the former Yugoslavia.

15 Q. And on 17 April was the army restructured to

16 change the way that it had been before and the way it

17 was in the future, after 17 April?

18 A. Yes, I explained that yesterday.

19 MS. McHENRY: That is fine. Sir, is it your

20 testimony, Sir, that on 17 April, in Konjic, that all

21 the reorganisation that was set out in the

22 proclamations from Sarajevo were all carried out in

23 full and understood by everyone in Konjic.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you expect him to

25 answer that?

Page 11232

1 MS. McHENRY: I believe he has already stated

2 it, so I am asking him to clarify. I am a little

3 surprised, but that is what he said. I am asking if in

4 fact I have understood him.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is the question of

6 everybody in the military ought to understand -- not

7 necessarily that everybody did -- it is not a thing one

8 can say and I am sure he is not saying everybody

9 actually did.

10 MS. McHENRY: Is His Honour correct that,

11 whether or not everyone should have understood exactly

12 what the reorganisation entailed, that there were some

13 people in the military in fact who did not understand

14 or implement the changes immediately?

15 A. I explained yesterday this, but you are now

16 talking about the 1,000 persons and, in the course of

17 mobilisation, I could not have every single recruit

18 medically examined and know exactly who was who, so

19 I cannot tell you this, but the staff was making all

20 the efforts to prevent perhaps efforts of some

21 individuals in that respect.

22 Q. Thank you. You would agree with me, Sir,

23 that the war presidency continued to have certain

24 responsibilities to support the military in various

25 ways, in particular, for instance, such as logistics?

Page 11233

1 A. I agree, it had a duty and obligation,

2 because there was no other way.

3 Q. And would you agree with me that the military

4 supported non-military structures in some ways, such as

5 providing food for companies and refugees in Konjic?

6 A. We did this in a single location for all,

7 because we were unable to do it otherwise.

8 Q. Sir, I am not being critical. If the answer

9 is "yes", all you have to do is say "yes".

10 Sir, you would agree with me that, in

11 addition to serving as the coordinator with the war

12 presidency, Mr. Delalic worked on the problems between

13 the HVO and the TO?

14 A. I have to give a clarification rather than

15 just an answer "yes". As I stated yesterday, he was

16 present at that meeting, so that he could transmit

17 information -- let us say when we talked about logistic

18 problems, he had to transmit the information to the war

19 presidency where there were also Croatian members.

20 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Delalic also made

21 efforts to smooth out misunderstandings between the HVO

22 and the TO?

23 A. He assisted in solving logistical problems,

24 for instance, in a way that he informed the war

25 presidency.

Page 11234

1 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that previously,

2 in describing Mr. Delalic's role, one of the things you

3 said was that he made efforts to smooth out

4 misunderstandings between the HVO and the TO?

5 A. I think that I was clear, but I will repeat

6 it: the HVO was better equipped, they had their own

7 food stocks, and from the supplies that were provided

8 by the war presidency, that is where he mediated, so

9 certain units were already supplied and that is where

10 these coordinations were in relation to the logistical

11 matters. I do not know if you understood me there.

12 Q. I did understand you, but my question had

13 been different. My question had been specifically:

14 you would agree with me that you previously described

15 Mr. Delalic's role as smoothing out misunderstandings

16 between the HVO and the TO -- you would agree that you

17 said that before?

18 A. I did say that, but on those issues.

19 Q. That is fine. Thank you, Sir. When you were

20 in charge of logistics, did you ever issue written

21 orders to your staff members?

22 A. Written orders are issued only by the

23 commanders, and are signed by them. As an assistant

24 commander, I did not issue orders -- I can prepare it,

25 but I cannot issue it.

Page 11235

1 Q. I assume you periodically received written

2 orders from your superiors; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. McHENRY: I am going to ask that you be

5 shown again a document that you were shown yesterday by

6 the Defence from the binder of the expert, V-D/31.

7 I have extra copies and I think it might be easiest if

8 we just have additional copies marked -- I think

9 Ms. Residovic did that mostly yesterday. (Handed).

10 Sir, this is your appointment order dated

11 3 August, signed by Mr. Ramic, and my question is you

12 will see a number at the very top. It says number

13 01/277-1, although I think it is a translation error --

14 I think if you look at the original it says something

15 like "13". Can you tell us what those numbers mean?

16 In particular, is this supposed to be a unique number

17 and thus there would not be other orders with that same

18 number?

19 A. I did look at it and this number means the

20 main staff of the armed forces, when I was appointed,

21 the date is July 1992, and I am being re-appointed

22 because the joint command had split.

23 Q. Sir, I am not sure I understood you answer,

24 if there potentially have been any interpretation

25 issues. Let me say, in the beginning, immediately

Page 11236

1 above the date, where it says "dated 3 August 1992",

2 there is a number and it says number 01/277-13. This

3 is a number that the Konjic municipal staff put on this

4 order; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. My question is: is this a unique number; in

7 other words, is this the only order that is going to

8 have that exact same number?

9 A. This is the number of the commander of the

10 staff.

11 Q. Sir, are you saying that every single order

12 from the commander of the staff is going to have that

13 exact same number?

14 A. It should, but sometimes errors occur and

15 sometimes another organ, let us say security and

16 intelligence organ can enter their own number, but the

17 number that should be there should be 01, because each

18 of the organs have their own numbers, but sometimes

19 these things happen.

20 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Sir, but with respect to

21 the rest of the number, is it the case that there

22 should not be, from the Konjic municipal staff, any

23 other order with the number on it 01/277-13?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My own copy is

25 different it says "-1".

Page 11237

1 MS. McHENRY: I am using the interpretation

2 that was supplied to us. I think if you look at the

3 original it looks like it says "13", which I pointed

4 out in the beginning, but we can give it to translation

5 later -- I am just using the document that was provided

6 to us.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is your real

8 problem? What are you trying to trace? What is wrong

9 with that?

10 MS. McHENRY: I have a question about what

11 these numbers represent.

12 JUDGE JAN: This is a question you should be

13 asking from the staff of the commander. You can ask

14 him about the numbers which his staff puts on these

15 documents. How would he know what numbers and how the

16 numbers are? That can only be answered by the staff of

17 the commander which has put the number on it.

18 MS. McHENRY: He stated he was part of the TO

19 command staff and he often received written orders. If

20 he does not know the answer, I think that is fine, but

21 I think it would be a little surprising if he does not

22 know the numbering system of his own command staff.

23 JUDGE JAN: I am not sure.

24 MS. McHENRY: If he does not know the answer,

25 I will certainly accept that?

Page 11238

1 A. I think I have explained it. An order is

2 signed only by the staff commander. I can prepare the

3 document, but it has to be signed by the commander. If

4 the commander signs it, his number is "01" -- sometimes

5 an error may be made, and the person who compiled the

6 document may put his own number, for example "02", if

7 he is the chief of staff or the assistant commander for

8 logistics. There may be an error, but the "01" stands

9 for the commander.

10 Q. Do you know anything about the numbers that

11 appear after the "01" -- 277-1 or "-13" -- I am not

12 asking you -- all I am asking you is, do you know

13 whether or not these are protocol numbers that were

14 unique to each individual order that was issued by the

15 commander -- do you know the answer to that question?

16 A. They should be the protocol numbers. We are

17 still working in the same way -- that is what we do to

18 this day.

19 Q. The protocol numbers are unique to a

20 document, correct, and thus there should not be any

21 other document from the command of Mr. Ramic with the

22 number on it 01/277-13; is that correct?

23 A. No, there should not be any other document

24 with that number.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 11239

1 A. If the document has been written and

2 registered as such, then this number applies to that

3 document only.

4 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Sir -- thank you very

5 much.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You took such a long

7 route to get to merely asking him whether any other

8 letter can have the same number. That is all you

9 needed to ask.

10 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour.

11 Sir, this document -- the 3 August document

12 -- the body of it refers to another document dated 11

13 July from the main staff of the Army of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You would agree with me that

15 Mr. Ramic was head of the TO well before 11 July, would

16 you not?

17 A. Mr. Ramic was from the month of May.

18 Q. Sir, you said you were aware of various

19 orders signed by Mr. Delalic as coordinator, many of

20 which concerned logistics. Would you agree with me

21 that not all the orders signed by Mr. Delalic had

22 strictly to do with logistics, or do you simply not

23 know?

24 A. I know of the documents which reached me and

25 these had to do only with logistics. I cannot claim

Page 11240

1 anything about anything else if I had not seen it.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. But they should not.

4 Q. Sir, can you just tell us what was the

5 relationship between your job and the war presidency,

6 particularly as it relates to logistics?

7 A. The relationship between me personally and

8 the war presidency was such that, at the beginning,

9 until Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed coordinator,

10 I had to have more frequent contacts. As I realised

11 that this was impossible, and the war presidency also

12 realised that it was impossible for several members of

13 the municipal staff of the TO, of the MUP and the HVO

14 to come, then a coordinator was appointed to mediate

15 between the defence forces and the war presidency

16 regarding supplies of food, equipment, and other means.

17 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that the head of

18 the TO and the head of the HVO and the head of the MUP

19 attended meetings of the war presidency, would you not?

20 A. No.

21 Q. They never attended any meetings of the war

22 presidency?

23 A. May I explain?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Because I cannot give you an answer without

Page 11241

1 an explanation. The commander of the TO staff was

2 never a member of the presidency; the head of the MUP

3 is; the commander of the HVO staff is not; the

4 coordinator is not. So, I am telling you as it was.

5 Whether sometimes some people were invited, he may have

6 been invited on the 17th when there was a mobilisation

7 -- 17 April -- then all the commanders of the defence

8 forces and the war presidency had to see how to carry

9 out the mobilisation to protect the city, but they were

10 not members of the war presidency.

11 MS. McHENRY: Yes, I am sorry, Sir, my

12 question did not ask whether or not they were members

13 of the war presidency; my question asked whether or

14 not, on occasion, they attended meetings of the war

15 presidency, if you know?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness has

17 answered that question.

18 THE WITNESS: I am not the staff commander,

19 I did not attend, I was not present and I did not see,

20 so I cannot say.

21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

22 Was Mr. Delalic a member of the TO, if you

23 know?

24 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic was a coordinator.

25 Q. Was he also, Sir, a member of the TO, if you

Page 11242

1 know?

2 A. No, I do not know.

3 Q. Sir, you talked a bit about the take-over of

4 Celebici -- the Celebici barracks, when all the weapons

5 were seized. Let me ask you, where were you during the

6 take-over of the Celebici barracks?

7 A. I was at the farm in Ovcari.

8 Q. Am I correct that Mr. Delalic and another

9 family member own that farm in Ovcari?

10 A. Mr. Zejnil Delalic is not the owner of that

11 farm, but his sister is the owner of that farm.

12 Q. So if Mr. Delalic said he and his sister owned

13 it jointly, he would be mistaken?

14 A. As far as I know, the owner of the farm is

15 his sister. She has a house there and I would not go

16 into that.

17 Q. Thank you. Who else was present in the farm

18 in Ovcari while the Celebici barracks were taken over;

19 in other words, I am not asking you right now who

20 participated in the actual military take-over; I am just

21 asking you who was with you at the farm in Ovcari?

22 A. With me at the farm was Diksa -- his name is

23 Sadik Dzumhur, known as Diksa.

24 Q. You would agree with me that Mr. Delalic led

25 the operation to seize the weapons from the Celebici

Page 11243

1 barracks, would you not?

2 A. No, I would not agree.

3 Q. What was his exact role, if you know?

4 A. His exact role was to transport the weapons

5 found there by a truck, which he provided, and to

6 transport the weapons to Ovcari.

7 Q. And can you remember anything about what kind

8 of weapons were captured?

9 A. Yes, I received the weapons in Ovcari --

10 there were automatic weapons, rifles; there were some

11 mines and explosives, cumulative instant

12 rocket-propelled grenades. I am not quite sure whether

13 there was a mortar launcher of 82 millimetres, but

14 I have a precise list of everything that reached the

15 warehouse.

16 Q. Where is that list?

17 A. The list is in my working notebook. I can

18 copy it and have it sent to you.

19 Q. Thank you. After the list of the arms was

20 made, the arms were handed over to you at the farm in

21 Ovcari; is that correct?

22 A. The weapons were handed over at the farm.

23 Q. Who actually, to your knowledge, led this

24 operation to take over the Celebici barracks?

25 A. I really do not know who led the operation.

Page 11244

1 I was informed by the late Velija Niksic that the

2 commander of the security -- his name was Narcis -- I

3 do not know his surname, that he promised him that he

4 would hand over the barracks without any attack, on

5 condition that all soldiers who had served their

6 military service in the JNA are safely transferred to

7 their homes. I know nothing more about that.

8 Q. Sir, did you participate in the actions in

9 Bradina?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Where were you during the actions in Bradina?

12 A. I was in Konjic. Should the need arise for

13 reinforcements and supplies of food and materiel, I was

14 at my work post.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge -- can you confirm

16 that Mr. Delalic also participated in the actions in

17 Bradina?

18 A. No, I do not know whether Mr. Delalic

19 participated. I said yesterday who was the commander,

20 and I really do not know.

21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Sir. Yesterday you

22 were shown and testified about a document from Sefer

23 Halilovic dated 12 June which concerned the Kralj

24 Tomislav Brigade. It is a Defence document. They

25 showed it yesterday. They did not separately mark it.

Page 11245

1 I have extra copies -- it is V-D/24, but.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Do you want them marked

3 separately?

4 MS. McHENRY: I think it is probably easier

5 to mark it separately.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is giving it a new

7 number for the same document.

8 MS. McHENRY: I think so. That is what we

9 did yesterday with respect to a number of documents.

10 If the court does not want us to continue that

11 practice --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is duplicating the

13 same number for the same document.

14 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I assume the reason the

15 Defence did it, and the reason that I might suggest

16 that we do it this way is because the documents

17 submitted for the expert were submitted for a limited

18 purpose and some of these documents, the ones the

19 witness has identified, both yesterday and I assume

20 today, maybe can be admitted for the truth of their

21 contents. I defer to the court.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When that is the

23 intention and the person is actually tendering it on

24 the strength of his own testimony, then you can do

25 that.

Page 11246

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I wish to note

2 that this document has already been admitted into

3 evidence, so I do not see why it should be tendered

4 once again.

5 MS. McHENRY: Was it admitted yesterday,

6 Ms.. Residovic? Sorry, let me address the court.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think it was admitted

8 during the testimony of General Pasalic or General

9 Divjak, I do not remember exactly, but it was in that

10 period that it was admitted into evidence.

11 MS. McHENRY: In which case I stand

12 corrected, I am sorry.

13 Sir, you talked about -- Ms.. Residovic asked

14 you some questions about this document yesterday. Can

15 you just confirm that you were aware that the Kralj

16 Tomislav brigade was present in Konjic at this time,

17 during June 1992, were you not?

18 A. I heard of the name -- whether the brigade

19 was present or not, I really do not know -- I know that

20 the HVO units were there. I know that the brigade was

21 later called Herceg Stjepan -- the names were changed,

22 certainly; they must have been changed.

23 Q. Were you aware of a Croatian general called

24 Dajdza who was present in Konjic during 1992?

25 A. Yes, I have heard of that man. He was

Page 11247

1 present, he was in Jablanica for a period of time, as

2 far as I know.

3 Q. Sir, I am not asking you your opinion as to

4 its validity or its legal or military effect; I am only

5 asking you whether or not you ever heard any reports

6 that Mr. Delalic had been appointed to a command

7 position by the general called Dajdza?

8 A. No, I had not heard of that.

9 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I will not seek to

10 have this exhibit dated 12 June about the Tomislav

11 Brigade admitted, but the previous document, which was

12 his 3 August appointment document, I would ask that

13 that be admitted -- his own appointment document that

14 he said he received on 3 August. Do we have a number

15 for that?

16 THE REGISTRAR: This document has been

17 marked Prosecutor Exhibit 232.

18 MS. McHENRY: I would tender that into

19 evidence, your Honour.


21 is an exhibit already?

22 MS. McHENRY: That is not one for the truth

23 of its contents. It was an exhibit that was in the

24 expert binder but it was not separately admitted for

25 the truth of its contents. Although Ms.. Residovic

Page 11248

1 showed it to him, she did not tender it yesterday.

2 I ask that it be tendered for the truth of its

3 contents.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this exhibit,

5 under the number 269/1 [sic] was admitted as a Defence

6 exhibit. If that was not the case, the Defence tenders

7 it, too, but I did tender it and I was informed that it

8 had been admitted under this number.

9 MS. McHENRY: I will work this out with the

10 Registrar during the break and then bring it to your

11 attention and Ms.. Residovic, if necessary, your Honour.

12 Let me go to a different area, Sir. You

13 stated previously that, from the beginning of May --

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, the transcript

15 has indicated a different number. I said 169/1 --

16 D169/1.

17 MS. McHENRY: I think that is correct.

18 I believe my information was incorrect so I am no

19 longer tendering it. It is already in evidence.

20 I apologise.

21 Sir, let me show you two documents from May.

22 (Handed).

23 THE REGISTRAR: The special permission

24 document is Prosecutor document 234 and the power of

25 attorney is Prosecutor document 235.

Page 11249

1 MS. McHENRY: Have you seen these documents

2 before?

3 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, are there copies

4 of those documents for the Defence?

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any extra copies?

6 MS. McHENRY: There are extra copies. They

7 are documents we received from the Defence -- they are

8 the 9 May power of attorney from Minister Doko and the

9 2 May special permission signed by the president of the

10 war presidency and head of the TO.

11 Sir, are you familiar with the contents of

12 these documents?

13 A. No --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The

15 witness's microphone is not switched on.

16 THE WITNESS: I have not seen this document

17 before.

18 MS. McHENRY: You have not seen either

19 document before?

20 A. The other one is so illegible that I really

21 cannot read what it says. If there is a better copy,

22 perhaps I could read it.

23 Q. I will ask the Defence during the break,

24 maybe they can supply us a better copy. Sir, am

25 I correct that in the beginning -- you stated yesterday

Page 11250

1 that in the beginning of May, even before he was

2 appointed coordinator, Mr. Delalic had received

3 authorisation to deal in logistics and other matters;

4 is that correct?

5 A. Yes, Mr. Zejnil Delalic offered his services

6 in terms of providing a certain quantity of equipment

7 through his business contacts and he was authorised on

8 that basis to go to Zagreb to procure that materiel and

9 other equipment.

10 Q. When you say he had been authorised, I assume

11 that this is something you had been told but you never

12 saw his authorisation at the time; is that correct?

13 A. I did not see the document, but this kind of

14 power of attorney was not just given to Zejnil Delalic

15 -- there were people in MUP, in the municipality, in

16 the economic staff, whoever was able to procure

17 anything would be given such power of attorney. It was

18 signed by Dr. Rusmir Hadzihuseinovic and the commander

19 Esad Ramic. In those days nobody could leave Konjic

20 until the commander of the TO staff signs a permit, be

21 he a military man or not, because the HVO would not

22 allow passage through Herceg-Bosna to Croatia and on

23 the basis of this kind of authorisation, Mr. Zejnil

24 Delalic would necessarily be given permission by the

25 HVO to go to Croatia and not only Mr. Zejnil Delalic but

Page 11251

1 everyone else as well. I can give you other examples.

2 Q. Sir, that is not necessary. You would state

3 that although you had not seen these documents before,

4 these documents are consistent with other documents

5 that had been given in the past and in fact they are

6 consistent with the facts that you knew, that

7 Mr. Delalic had received authorisation to deal in

8 logistic and related matters; is that correct?

9 A. I said that I had not seen this particular

10 authorisation, but Zejnil Delalic, as I have said,

11 offered, by saying that he could procure certain

12 materiel and equipment and, certainly on that basis, he

13 was given such an authorisation, because no citizen

14 could leave the municipality of Konjic without such an

15 authorisation -- either the commander, the president of

16 the war presidency and the HVO, for the reasons I have

17 already told you about -- he could not reach Croatia

18 without these three authorisations.

19 This applied to any individual. I wanted to

20 give you an example. My wife was in Croatia in Omis

21 and in order to visit her I had to be given such an

22 authorisation for the HVO to issue me a permit to enter

23 the Republic of Croatia.

24 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that this

25 document is consistent with both what you knew about

Page 11252

1 Mr. Delalic's authority and with the kinds of other

2 documents that were being given to people at this time;

3 is that correct? If it is, all you have to do is

4 say "yes"?

5 A. Could you be more precise in your question?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is such authorisation

7 usual in the these circumstances -- such authorisation

8 given to Delalic, in the circumstances, is that usual?

9 THE WITNESS: Such authorisations were usual.

10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we can have a

12 break now and reassemble at 2.30. You can then

13 continue with your cross-examination.

14 (1.00 p.m.)

15 (Luncheon adjournment)











Page 11253

1 (2.30 p.m.)

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies

3 and gentlemen. Before we start, we have just got a

4 motion from the Prosecution requesting for the accused

5 Zdravko Mucic to be brought before the Trial Chamber.

6 This morning I observed he was not here, and I stated

7 my perception of the law on it, except you have a way

8 out of telling the Trial Chamber how to bring in

9 somebody who willingly, voluntarily and without any

10 reasons stays away from the proceedings.

11 JUDGE JAN: Just before you begin, can we

12 use force to bring a person here?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour, we would

14 submit, your Honours, that he can be brought here by

15 force, in the same way as a person can be arrested and

16 brought here at his initial appearance and then the

17 Chamber can determine what happens from that point

18 onwards, and it is no different to any person who is

19 remanded in custody pending trial and during the course

20 of the trial. We would submit, your Honours, that the

21 power is in the court to determine it.

22 What concerns us is this ambiguity about why

23 he is not here. There seems to be some ambiguity in

24 relation to that. The other thing that is of concern

25 to us is -- there is some case law authority which

Page 11254

1 suggests that the Prosecution does have a

2 responsibility in this regard and that if a person is

3 not present before the court and then it subsequently

4 transpires that he should have been there, or he raises

5 it as an appeal point, then the court can look to the

6 Prosecution and say, "What did you do in the

7 circumstances?"

8 We submit, your Honours, that, if he says he

9 does not want to participate, that is something that we

10 would submit is appropriately to be heard from him and

11 for him to explain why he does not wish to be present.

12 We do not really know the basis of why he is not here

13 and why he does not want to participate in the

14 proceedings. Because he has a right of appearance,

15 because there are matters going on which arguably could

16 affect his rights at the end of the day, then it is our

17 submission, your Honours, that it is appropriate that

18 he be ordered to attend and to give an explanation. If

19 he still then persists on being absent, it is a matter

20 for your Honours -- and at all stages it is a matter

21 for your Honours, we are not saying anything to the

22 contrary about that and we are not saying what your

23 Honour Judge Karibi-Whyte said this morning is not

24 right in the sense if he has a right to be present and

25 does not want to be present, then that is a matter for

Page 11255

1 him.

2 We do believe the issue needs to be addressed

3 to the accused himself, because it is, I think,

4 somewhat difficult for the position of counsel for the

5 accused in these circumstances. I am sure Mr. Mucic is

6 not acting -- I am speculating, but I am sure he is not

7 acting on the advice of counsel to absent himself. In

8 those circumstances, there is perhaps a possibility

9 that he is acting without legal advice, he has not got

10 -- he may not fully understand his rights, because

11 I could not imagine that counsel would advise him not

12 to be present, and so for those reasons I think it is

13 appropriate for him to be brought before the Chamber.

14 I think your Honours do have the power to issue such an

15 order. Once he comes before us we can hear his

16 explanation. I do believe the Prosecution does have

17 some responsibilities in this regard.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a

19 responsibility which the Trial Chamber itself normally

20 would exercise if it finds that there are justifiable

21 reasons for doing so. When you have a normal accused

22 person who has been attending his trials, who knows his

23 rights and has exercised it before, and he decides to

24 repeat that same exercise again, I think the Trial

25 Chamber is perfectly entitled to say he knows his

Page 11256

1 rights and he is acting within them. We have given him

2 permission to be absent for some time and not

3 appear --

4 MR. NIEMANN: In no circumstances am

5 I suggesting on those occasions where he sought your

6 Honours' leave to be absent is there any question at

7 all. It is this ambiguous position where he says,

8 "I am not present and I do not waive my rights."

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel who represents

10 him knows there are ways for seeking remedies if his

11 client has some difficulties. If there is any matter

12 of a psychiatric condition which is compelling him to

13 behave in a particular way, let us have such a medical

14 report on which we can rely. On the other hand, if

15 there are other arguable reasons in respect of which

16 counsel should make an application and seek the leave

17 of the Trial Chamber for a remedy, let us have that,

18 but when a person absents himself deliberately in order

19 to affect the proceedings of the Trial Chamber, it

20 could come under Rule 80, under the control of

21 proceedings -- even if he is here and he behaves

22 irresponsibly in order to interfere with the

23 proceedings, we can exclude him and carry on.

24 MR. NIEMANN: May I just --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is why I am saying

Page 11257

1 that if he deliberately stays away, it is even better

2 for us to allow him to stay away than stay in here and

3 cause unnecessary confusion and bring the proceedings

4 into the media, for no justifiable reasons.

5 In the first place, my first criticism of

6 your motion is that the Trial Chamber appears to be the

7 respondent of this application. If you were asking the

8 accused to be brought, I suppose it should be directed

9 to him.

10 MR. NIEMANN: There is no way I had intended

11 for the Trial Chamber to be a respondent.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the

13 implication.

14 MR. NIEMANN: It is directed to the

15 accused. May I explain a point? Allow me please to

16 explain it and it will give some understanding why we

17 are doing it.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I see your point.

19 MR. NIEMANN: If I were acting for an

20 accused person and the accused person said to me,

21 "Look, I am not going to go to court. I do not care.

22 I am not waiving my rights, I am not going to court."

23 It is so hard for me as his counsel to come to court

24 and say, "We seek an order compelling him to attend.

25 We ask your Honours to an issue an order that he will,

Page 11258

1 in effect, be brought here by force." As counsel,

2 I cannot do that. This has been rationalised in other

3 cases where this issue has arisen, where the court said

4 it is up to the Prosecution to do something about

5 this. This happens, the Prosecution has a

6 responsibility. They cannot sit there mute and allow

7 this go on and simply say it is a matter for the

8 Defence and has nothing to do with the Prosecution.

9 That is the background by which we have raised this,

10 that if I was acting for him, I would find it very

11 difficult -- I could not come to you and ask on

12 instructions that I want my client arrested.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And to tell the Trial

14 Chamber he is not waiving his rights.

15 MR. NIEMANN: I could only tell you his

16 position; he is not coming and he is not waiving his

17 rights.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What did you intend the

19 Trial Chamber to do?

20 MR. NIEMANN: I am not criticising the Trial

21 Chamber. I say we have a responsibility and I do not

22 believe it is in the best interests for these

23 proceedings for this to go on. It could go on

24 indefinitely. If that were to occur I do not think it

25 would be in the best interests of the proceedings

Page 11259

1 without him at least being compelled to come here and

2 give an explanation. Where we go from there is another

3 issue, but as an initial step it is our submission he

4 should be compelled to come forward himself and give an

5 explanation. I do believe that the Prosecution has a

6 legitimate role in that, if your Honours please.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

8 Actually, your suggestion is very much in order.

9 I agree it is the proper thing is perhaps to find out

10 from him why he has not, but since the accused has,

11 through his counsel, stated he was not waiving his

12 rights, that he had made an application to the Registry

13 for access to an investigator, that because that was

14 not granted he was not coming, I do not see what other

15 avenue you can explore, other than insist that he

16 should come. That is the most you can do.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I agree it is a difficult

18 matter to resolve, but I do believe your Honours do

19 have the control of the proceedings and have the

20 authority to order that he be brought to the court.

21 I do believe that your Honours have that power.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Bound hand and foot?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Until he gets to the

24 courtroom, yes. Once your Honours enter the room, of

25 course not, but until he is brought into the courtroom,

Page 11260

1 yes.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

3 Mr. Olujic, let us hear your views.

4 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, your Honours. First

5 of all, I firmly oppose the motion of the Prosecution

6 -- I think that it is not based in law. I think that

7 this Trial Chamber has already ruled this morning the

8 way it did, and indirectly I have already advised my

9 client of this. I had to be present in the courtroom,

10 but my colleague, Michael Greaves, did transmit him the

11 message and this is the only thing that I have to say

12 with respect to the presence of my client during these

13 proceedings, that is, that this Trial Chamber has

14 already ruled on it and I believe that this request on

15 the part of the Prosecution is completely unfounded.

16 JUDGE JAN: How do you respond to he should

17 be forced to come here if we give a direction?

18 MR. OLUJIC: No, your Honour, when I said

19 that I opposed the motion of the Prosecution in their

20 written motion, this was the suggestion that was spelt

21 out in it. I believe that his basic rights would be

22 violated, that is, it would violate all the provisions

23 of the international law.

24 I am also referring to the decision of the

25 President, who has explained why these proceedings can

Page 11261

1 proceed without the presence of my client. I think

2 that this motion is unacceptable, I think that it would

3 really encroach upon his basic rights, and, therefore,

4 I believe that this motion should be rejected.

5 JUDGE JAN: But if he refuses to come

6 knowing that he has a right to be present, why can we

7 not force him to be here. He can say to the court

8 whatever he wants to himself.

9 MR. OLUJIC: I am sorry, the microphone was

10 not on. Could you maybe repeat it with the microphone

11 on so that I can get my interpretation?

12 JUDGE JAN: Why can we not force him to come

13 here? He is in the custody of the Tribunal, and he can

14 say whatever he likes himself, knowing that he has a

15 right to be present at this trial, yet he is keeping

16 away. Why can we not force him to be here and give a

17 direction to the security staff to bring him here by

18 force?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I will tell you, an

20 additional reason he should be brought by force is

21 because he has declared he is not waiving his right to

22 be absent -- he is not waiving his right to be

23 present. Therefore, he has to come, to be present,

24 forcibly, and if he then comes in here and violates the

25 Rules of the court, then we do have to deal with him.

Page 11262

1 Because you see, he cannot have his cake and

2 eat it. If he wants to stay away, he has to forgo his

3 rights -- he has to waive his rights to be present, and

4 you, as his counsel, can see to him and protect his

5 interests, because if all of you depend on the

6 principle that he still has not waived his right, your

7 staying here is meaningless.

8 JUDGE JAN: The effective position which you

9 take really amounts to this, that he has a right to

10 control the proceedings. The position that you are

11 taking is -- it is tantamount to saying that he has a

12 right to control the proceedings, because a trial

13 cannot go on in his absence. This is a right he does

14 not possess, the control of the proceedings.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Certainly, your Honour, the

16 Trial Chamber is dominus litis in this case. However,

17 what I am taking account of here is the delicate nature

18 of my position. I am his Defence counsel. I cannot do

19 anything that would be side-stepping my client's

20 instructions and this is why I think that it would be

21 in accordance with the Rules and this morning's

22 decision -- the ruling of the Trial Chamber, that is,

23 I believe that the proceedings could go on and every

24 forcible attempt to bring him here would violate his

25 right to be present here, or not be present here.

Page 11263

1 The moment he stated that he did not want to

2 be present here, he did express his desire, his will,

3 and he has a right to that.

4 The proceedings can go on without his

5 presence. I understand that his additional decision

6 not to waive his right to be present here does bring in

7 an element of a dilemma, but I think that we have

8 already proceeded on, yesterday afternoon and this

9 morning, and only now we have received the motion of

10 the Prosecution. So, therefore, I continue to believe

11 that the conditions for him to be brought here forcibly

12 have not been met and, on my part, I will continue to

13 consult with my client, and I will try to find out

14 whether he intends to be present in the courtroom

15 tomorrow.

16 So, at this moment, I cannot give you any

17 promises in that regard. I do not know whether he will

18 or will not come tomorrow, so I have to ask him that.

19 But, at any rate, I believe that the motion of the

20 Prosecution is not well founded in the legal provisions

21 and that the decision of the Trial Chamber should

22 reflect that.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think I will

24 agree with you that the motion of the Prosecution is

25 not well founded -- it is properly -- it is well

Page 11264

1 founded. When an accused person desires to take the

2 law into his own hands, at least it has to be brought

3 forcibly to him that he is standing trial in a criminal

4 court -- he has no choice, especially since he has

5 refused to accept the provisions of the law. If he

6 wanted to waive his right not to be present we might

7 respect that, but since he still wants to keep to his

8 rights and expects us to continue under his own

9 guidance, the way he wants things to go, I think we

10 should make him appreciate he is standing trial in a

11 criminal court, not in a civil court, where only

12 perhaps fines might solve it -- here, he will be forced

13 to show why should he behave in the way he has behaved

14 -- he has to show that. As his counsel, you should

15 have known what to do before now.

16 I would say that the Trial Chamber does not

17 provide charitable advice, but when an accused person

18 had a problem with the Registry, counsel should know

19 how to present his case before the Trial Chamber, even

20 before it gets to this stage, because if his case was

21 properly presented, and we knew what his real grievance

22 was, perhaps you would have waited for a ruling on that

23 grievance before behaving in the way he has behaved.

24 For the time being, I think we accept the contention of

25 the Prosecution that he ought to be here, and then we

Page 11265

1 will now know exactly what to do, if he still refuses

2 to come. As I said from the beginning, this has been

3 prompted because of the impediment that he still is

4 insisting on his right to be present.

5 MR. OLUJIC: With your permission, just an

6 additional clarification, your Honours. With your

7 permission, your Honours --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you start,

9 I will give my ruling -- the ruling of the Trial

10 Chamber. We will ask the security to bring him here by

11 4 o'clock. They have to bring him here today and let

12 us hear from him why he thinks he can flout the

13 authority of the Trial Chamber.

14 Thank you very much, let us get the witness

15 back in.

16 MS. McMURREY: I would like to ask the leave

17 of the court for Ms. Boler to leave the court and attend

18 to some business that we need to attend to quickly.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may.

20 (The witness entered the court)

21 MS. McHENRY: While the witness is being

22 brought in, might I ask the Registrar to get, from the

23 binders from the expert witness, on the third binder,

24 it is Exhibit 9/7, pages 993 to 994.

25 Sir, this is hopefully a more legible copy of

Page 11266

1 the document that I showed you immediately before lunch

2 break, that you indicated it was hard to read. Can you

3 now read that it is an authorisation from the Minister,

4 Mr. Doko, regarding Mr. Delalic, dated 9 May 1992?

5 A. Yes, I have read it. I have never seen this

6 authorisation before. All I know is what I have

7 already said, that, on 17th or 18th, a convoy arrived

8 at the Celebici barracks, when it was reloaded and

9 transferred to Visoko across the mountains. That is

10 all I know.

11 Q. Just before we go to that, Sir, have you ever

12 seen -- were those kinds of authorisations such as

13 before you, were they usual?

14 A. I know that they were issued to any person

15 who could bring in anything from the Republic of

16 Croatia to Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Sir, with respect to Mr. Delalic's trip to

18 Croatia, are you aware that he went to the Dugo Selo

19 barracks -- do you have any information about exactly

20 where he went in Croatia, or where he got his

21 equipment?

22 A. No, I am not aware of that. I just received

23 what Zejnil Delalic brought with two or three trucks to

24 the Celebici barracks.

25 MS. McHENRY: Can I now ask that the witness

Page 11267

1 be shown Defence Exhibit 88/1? I have extra copies for

2 the court. (Handed).

3 Sir, with respect to this document, did you

4 receive this document in 1992?

5 A. Yes, I received the document.

6 Q. In addition to the typed portions, Sir, the

7 document, the original of it has two different portions

8 which are hand-written. Whose handwriting is on the

9 document?

10 A. This handwriting is that of Mr. Zejnil

11 Delalic.

12 Q. And the handwriting that you recognised as

13 Mr. Delalic's, is that the handwriting that

14 says, "I request you to give 10 trunks of 7.62" -- that

15 portion?

16 A. He is asking me to give him 10 boxes for the

17 Mostar Brigade.

18 Q. And, with respect to the other handwriting

19 that is on the right portion of the document, do you

20 know whose handwriting that is?

21 A. I do not recognise this handwriting.

22 I cannot recall -- I simply cannot recognise it.

23 Q. Am I correct that Mostar was not part of the

24 geographic zone for which Tactical Group 1 was

25 responsible?

Page 11268

1 A. You are right, Mostar was not part of the

2 zone of responsibility of Tactical Group 1. Tactical

3 Group 1 was of a provisional nature, and it has units

4 which participate in the combat operations to lift the

5 blockade around Sarajevo.

6 Q. Sir, there is a notation in there that

7 various weapons that may be transferred are to be paid

8 for later. Is it the case that various portions of the

9 army would pay each other for equipment?

10 A. It seems to me that this has to do with

11 compensation, which means when he has the adequate

12 amount of ammunition, he will return it, but as a rule,

13 if I as the logistics body issued this with the

14 approval of the commander, I did not have to return

15 it. So, in the event that we ran short of certain

16 materiel, then we could address ourselves to any other

17 unit within the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina with

18 such a request.

19 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I would ask that

20 this Exhibit 88/1 be tendered into evidence. I believe

21 it had been marked for identification by the Defence

22 previously, but not been admitted into evidence.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can tender it.

24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. May I ask that the

25 witness now be shown Prosecution Exhibit 119?

Page 11269

1 (Handed).

2 Sir, can you confirm that this document also

3 represents the handwriting of Mr. Delalic?

4 A. According to the signature, I would say that

5 it was Zejnil Delalic's signature.

6 JUDGE JAN: He is acquainted with his

7 handwriting?

8 MS. McHENRY: Yes, he just previously stated

9 that he was.

10 JUDGE JAN: He was acquainted with his

11 handwriting?

12 MS. McHENRY: Yes, with respect to the

13 previous document, he said that he recognised it.

14 JUDGE JAN: What is this document, 119?

15 MS. McHENRY: I have extra copies for your

16 Honours, if you would like. I do not have any more

17 questions about it, but I do have extra copies.

18 Sir, you stated, if I understood you

19 correctly, that, in the very beginning, Mr. Rale

20 Musinovic and one of his units was present in the camp

21 and when I say in the very beginning -- in the

22 beginning of the camp's existence. My question is:

23 you are aware that Mr. Musinovic and his unit left in

24 the latter part of May; is that correct -- do you have

25 any information about that?

Page 11270

1 A. May I make a correction first? It was not a

2 camp; it was a prison, and he is called Miralem

3 Musinovic, and I could not tell you the exact date when

4 Miralem Musinovic left the Celebici barracks.

5 Q. Would you agree it was approximately at the

6 end of May, Sir?

7 A. No, I could not tell you, because I am not

8 sure -- I really would not like to say anything.

9 Q. Sir, you testified previously that Mr. Delalic

10 would sometimes be present at meetings with the --

11 between the HVO and the TO. Am I correct that you

12 sometimes were also at these meetings?

13 A. I have already said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic

14 and I explained it, I think it was yesterday, that he

15 attended only with respect to logistics, in order to

16 reduce the time required to convey information from the

17 war presidency. That is how we worked, and I have

18 already explained that. These were meetings prior to

19 the preparation of combat operations regarding logistic

20 support.

21 Q. Sir, I think there is some sort of problem

22 and I would ask that you listen very carefully to my

23 question. The question was not why did Mr. Delalic

24 attend meetings between the HVO and the TO. My

25 question was, did you also yourself attend some of

Page 11271

1 these meetings between the HVO and the TO and

2 Mr. Delalic?

3 A. I attended when these questions came up, as

4 I have just said, and this was only in those

5 situations.

6 Q. Sir, were you present at the meeting between

7 Mr. Delalic and members of the TO and other people where

8 Mr. Delalic propounded Mr. Mucic to be camp commander?

9 A. No, I never even heard about it, nor did

10 I attend such a meeting.

11 Q. Sir, who was the camp commander at Celebici

12 -- the commander of the prison?

13 A. I really do not know who was the commander or

14 warden of the prison at Celebici. I never saw any

15 appointment of that kind, so I cannot tell you that it

16 was so-and-so when I do not know.

17 MS. McHENRY: Sir, when you were in Konjic at

18 the time, even if you yourself did not see the actual

19 appointment, who did you understand to be warden or

20 commander of the prison?

21 MR. OLUJIC: Objection, your Honours. The

22 witness has answered this question by saying that he

23 does not know.

24 JUDGE JAN: He can answer the question, he

25 used to visit the camp -- not the detention camp but

Page 11272

1 the facility -- and by passing through the gate, which

2 of course was guarded, he must be knowing who is

3 running the camp.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honours,

5 please.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His answer was with

7 respect to appointment, not that he never knew somebody

8 was -- somebody might be looking after the place. How

9 the person was appointed, perhaps he does not know. If

10 he does not know, he can still say so.

11 JUDGE JAN: You can repeat your question.

12 MS. McHENRY: Even if you did not see an

13 actual appointment order, who did you understand to be

14 in charge of the Celebici prison?

15 A. I do not know who was responsible for the

16 Celebici prison, because there were many people in the

17 prison. I explained to you nicely yesterday that the

18 TO did not have a military police. The rounding up of

19 prisoners was done by the MUP and the HVO police. Who

20 made the decision to form the prison and who was

21 appointed warden of the prison, I do not know.

22 Q. Sir, how did your unit receive -- from whom

23 did your unit receive information about how many

24 prisoners were in Celebici, such that you would know

25 how much food was to be supplied?

Page 11273

1 A. Let me repeat, even though I have already

2 explained, before bringing the prisoners to the

3 Celebici prison, there was a MUP unit, which would

4 report the number of prisoners, and this number would

5 increase. I never received any order from anyone which

6 would say, "Send to the Celebici barracks instructions

7 as to how they would report the numbers." The way the

8 units did it, either in writing or by telephone, that

9 is how -- the same procedure was applied later.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps let us get this

11 right. Counsel wants to know who you deal with in

12 matters relating to the Celebici prison -- who do you

13 deal with?

14 JUDGE JAN: To supply your food.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who do you deal with?

16 It is a place which people occupy and other people

17 stayed, so you must be dealing with someone.

18 THE WITNESS: The head of the quartermaster

19 service, the officer -- the quartermaster and his

20 deputy were responsible for this. I have explained the

21 method in which we established the numbers, and on that

22 basis also how the food was delivered to the prison.

23 MS. McHENRY: I am sorry. Sir, is it your

24 testimony that from May until December of 1992 it was

25 the MUP who would tell you how many people were in

Page 11274

1 Celebici prison?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Well, who was it who would tell your unit by

4 phone or in writing how many prisoners were in

5 Celebici?

6 A. I have already said there was a MUP unit and,

7 when a change occurred, because changes occurred

8 frequently among the guards, whether it was in May,

9 June or August, I really cannot tell you -- the

10 administration that was in the Celebici prison would

11 report to us the numbers.

12 Q. Who was in the administration in the Celebici

13 prison -- that is my question, Sir?

14 A. People who were there -- you can see it on

15 the certificates who received the food and who signed

16 those certificates -- whether it was Hazim Delic or

17 Pavo Mucic or somebody else, I really cannot tell you

18 now, because I had a very wide area of responsibility,

19 and I could not look up daily all the signatures coming

20 from 30 different places. That was not my job.

21 Q. Thank you, Sir. Sir, you stated that you

22 were aware that a military investigation committee was

23 set up in the beginning part of the camp's existence.

24 Are you aware that Mr. Delalic worked along with that

25 committee -- do you have any information about that?

Page 11275

1 A. I did not say that. I said that the

2 president of the commission was Goran Lokas and I said

3 I did not know the other members of the commission.

4 I do not know at all, nor was I ever informed that that

5 commission worked with Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

6 Q. You previously identified a document

7 yesterday dealing with an order about blankets in the

8 camp. Sir, while we try to locate that document -- if

9 you need the document to answer this question, feel

10 free and then I will go on to something else, but I do

11 not believe you will need it. If I understood you

12 correctly, you did not consider this a valid order from

13 the war presidency; is that correct?

14 A. It is correct. The only valid order for me

15 is the one issued by the commander of the TO staff.

16 MS. McHENRY: You agreed with me previously

17 that in this time there was some confusion about who

18 had authority to do certain things, and I assume you

19 would also agree with me that this order may have been

20 a result of that confusion.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, your Honour. The

22 witness never spoke about any kind of confusion with

23 respect to the execution of tasks and assignments.

24 MS. McHENRY: Let me rephrase my question.

25 Sir, do you think this order from the war

Page 11276

1 presidency reflected some confusion about the proper

2 authorities of the war presidency?

3 A. I am saying again that it was not confusion

4 -- whether it is an error that it says "order" instead

5 of "decision", so I could only take note of a decision,

6 because the economic staff had the duty to provide

7 blankets, to hand them over to the municipal staff, and

8 then, on the basis of the commander's order, could I go

9 on with the distribution. So, I do not think that that

10 is confusion -- I do not think that one can infer from

11 this that there was confusion.

12 MS. McHENRY: Sir, would the document have

13 been -- let me just move on.

14 You would agree with me, Sir, that the TO had

15 some role in maintaining the camp, for instance,

16 including your duty to feed the prisoners.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not think there is

18 a dispute there. That is his evidence.

19 MS. McHENRY: That is right.

20 Sir, if you had a duty to provide logistical

21 support in terms of feeding the prisoners, it is

22 logical, would you not agree, that you may have also

23 had a duty to support them logistically with respect to

24 supplying certain things, such as blankets?

25 A. I have already said that we did not have a

Page 11277

1 single blanket, that our soldiers carried blankets from

2 their homes, they wore jeans to the defence lines,

3 because they did not have any uniforms. I think that

4 is a sufficient answer -- we did not have any. If we

5 had, we would have given them, certainly. Whatever we

6 had, we gave.

7 Q. When you received this order from the war

8 presidency, which should have been called the

9 "decision", what exactly did you do with it? What

10 actions, if any, did you take after receiving this

11 order?

12 A. We waited for the economic staff, that is,

13 the war presidency, to provide the blankets and, when

14 they were available, they were given to the Celebici

15 prison.

16 Q. And when is it that those blankets were

17 available, Sir?

18 A. I cannot tell you that. After four or five

19 years of war, I cannot remember every date. I really

20 cannot. I just do not know. If I did know, I would

21 tell you.

22 Q. Am I correct, Sir, that you talked to your

23 superior about the fact that there was this need for

24 blankets in Celebici?

25 A. Could you please repeat the question, I did

Page 11278

1 not quite understand you?

2 Q. When you received this order from the war

3 presidency indicating that there was an urgent need for

4 blankets in Celebici, did you go talk to your superior

5 about the problem?

6 A. All the documents that reached the staff are

7 seen by the commander and initialled and then he will

8 pass on the documents relating to logistics, to the

9 logistic department; the security, to the security

10 department. Therefore, he is familiar with these

11 things before I am.

12 MS. McHENRY: So, is it correct, Sir, that you

13 received this order from your superior, the head of the

14 TO, and then you did nothing about it? Let me go back

15 for a minute. Certainly, you would have talked to the

16 coordinator about this, since if I understood your

17 testimony, this is exactly the kind of problem that

18 fell within the coordinator's responsibility.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. The witness never

20 said anything like that, so I would like to request

21 that incorrect questions not be put to the witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is merely asking

23 for the action he took. That is all the question is.

24 If he did not take an action, that is well and good.

25 If he took an action, he should say what action he

Page 11279

1 took.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: The Prosecutor said he said

3 he had discussed this with the coordinator and the

4 witness did not say that. That is why I am objecting.

5 MS. McHENRY: I think there may have been

6 some interpretation issue.

7 Let me go back. You would agree that the

8 provision of blankets, the logistical issues, including

9 with respect to orders from the war presidency, would

10 have been something that fell within the coordinator's

11 responsibility, would you not agree with that?

12 A. Everything that needed to be obtained or

13 provided need not have reached the coordinator. It was

14 not necessary to inform the coordinator about 50

15 spoons, shall we say, or 100 cans. I really do not

16 understand the question.

17 Q. Sir, did I understand you correctly that the

18 war presidency issued you an order to supply, on an

19 urgent basis, blankets to Celebici and you were unable

20 to comply with that order, because you did not have any

21 blankets? Surely, Sir, you would agree with me that

22 this is the kind of problem that fell within the

23 coordinator's responsibilities?

24 A. Since the war presidency issued the order --

25 and we have already said that it should have been a

Page 11280

1 decision, not an order -- and in this order it states

2 that the economic staff and the civilian protection

3 needed to do this together with the logistic staff. It

4 was only then that the TO staff could issue an order

5 for the blankets in Celebici.

6 Q. I am sorry, did I understand that the

7 logistics body was supposed to coordinate with the

8 economic staff of the war presidency; is that what you

9 just stated?

10 A. No, I thought that I was clear. In this

11 order, it is stated that the economic staff is tasked

12 and also the civilian protection -- the document is not

13 here but I remember it very well -- together with the

14 municipal staff, so when I got the blankets, I was

15 supposed to take them to Celebici. But the economic

16 staff and the civilian protection office were tasked

17 with this, clearly, and they were in charge of it, and

18 then we, with the authorisation of the TO staff, are

19 giving the blankets to Celebici.

20 Q. And, in fact, as far as you know, Sir, the TO

21 staff never did give any blankets; is that correct?

22 A. I cannot say whether the staff gave them or

23 not, but the blankets were in Celebici when I entered

24 the prison in Celebici.

25 Q. Sir, you discussed the food for the prisoners

Page 11281

1 and, if I understood you correctly, you would agree

2 that the detainees were badly fed?

3 A. The prisoners received the same food as the

4 soldiers on the front-lines and the same food that I ate

5 in the brewery where I was located.

6 Q. Sir, did you indicate this morning that there

7 were some situations when the soldiers at the front-line

8 would get bread on a priority basis and the prisoners

9 would not?

10 A. That is not what I said. I said that a part

11 of the soldiers who were the most threatened on the

12 front-lines and the sick ones did, but I myself, as in

13 charge of the logistics did not and I think that is

14 what I said and that is what is true.

15 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you

16 yourself were not in a position to see in fact the

17 quantity of food that the prisoners received in

18 Celebici?

19 A. I was talking about the quality of food, what

20 it was like, how it was prepared and how it was

21 distributed. I cannot assert whether the food reached

22 the prisoners, because that was not in my competence.

23 I am not -- the prison staff was not responsible for

24 the preparation and delivery of food, but they were

25 responsible for the distribution of food and not my

Page 11282

1 unit or my staff.

2 Q. Did I understand you correctly this morning

3 that sometimes the persons delivering food refused to

4 deliver it, because of the negative reaction that they

5 would receive from persons who thought that it was

6 insufficient?

7 A. Yes, they complained that there were

8 complaints about insufficient amounts of food -- this

9 is the complaints that they received all the time,

10 because if day after day for a month you just eat soup,

11 you can imagine how it would be.

12 Q. Did I understand you correctly that, because

13 of these complaints, sometimes the persons delivering

14 food refused actually to deliver it?

15 A. No, I did not say that they refused; they

16 complained -- they thought that it was embarrassing for

17 them to deliver food to these end users, because they

18 were the target of criticism then, because they were

19 the ones who were delivering it.

20 Q. Sir, are you in a position to know if there

21 was a cook in Celebici who prepared different food for

22 the guards there?

23 A. No, I do not know the administration

24 building, because I did not enter there.

25 Q. Sir, when you realised that the food was

Page 11283

1 inadequate for the prisoners, did you raise this issue

2 with your superior or with the coordinator?

3 A. I repeat again that the food was the same, so

4 the superiors knew of that. We had no more food to

5 give out; we could not prepare anything else and the

6 food was the same for all.

7 MS. McHENRY: Was there ever a discussion

8 about whether or not the TO could keep persons

9 imprisoned, even though they could not feed them?

10 JUDGE JAN: Is the question that the TO

11 could keep them? Would you repeat your question?

12 MS. McHENRY: Was there a question about

13 whether or not the Bosnian armed forces could keep

14 persons in prison, even in situations where they could

15 not feed them?

16 A. I only know that it had been requested that

17 the prisoners be moved to Zenica and that is it. On

18 objective grounds they could not be transferred and

19 that is all.

20 Q. Do I understand you that you never initiated

21 a discussion and you are not aware of any discussions

22 about whether or not these prisoners could be kept,

23 even though they could not be fed?

24 A. I already said if the prisoners were in the

25 same situation as I was -- we all had to live in the

Page 11284

1 same way -- the refugees were in the same situation.

2 There were 30,000 of them from eastern Bosnia, so they

3 were in the same position, they ate whatever was

4 available. So, the prisoners could not eat anything

5 else than what our refugees were getting, or what our

6 fighters were getting.

7 Q. Sir, are you aware that there were times when

8 the detainees did not get food for several days at a

9 time?

10 A. No, I do not know that.

11 Q. So, if there has been testimony that Mr. Mucic

12 called you specifically to complain about the fact that

13 the detainees had not had food for several days, that

14 would be incorrect?

15 A. No, I do not remember a conversation with

16 Pavo Mucic on that issue. I am not saying that he may

17 not have called me, but I really do not remember it.

18 Q. Sir, was it the logistics body that was also

19 responsible for ensuring that the detainees had

20 adequate medical treatment or supplies?

21 A. No, I was never consulted on that issue.

22 I know that there were two doctors in Celebici(redacted)

23 (redacted), and someone else

24 called Petko -- I do not know his last name and that

25 they were treating prisoners. After they were released

Page 11285

1 from prison, they were going back there to provide

2 medical care there.

3 Q. Sir, you know, do you not, that it was

4 Mr. Delalic (redacted), do

5 you not?

6 A. No, I am not familiar with that and I really

7 do not know anything about it.

8 Q. So, do I understand you that you have no

9 information whatsoever about where Celebici got any

10 medical supplies, but it certainly was not through the

11 logistics body of the TO; is that a correct statement?

12 A. No. I believe that these doctors who were

13 there, (redacted) Petko, received medication through

14 the hospital in Konjic, because, at that time, we did

15 not have our own dispensary.

16 Q. Who was doctor Amir Jusufbegovic?

17 A. Dr. Jusufbegovic was the director of the

18 hospital in the Konjic municipality.

19 Q. You indicated that you knew that the

20 prisoners -- that the TO wanted the prisoners moved so

21 the barracks could be used for other things; is that

22 correct?

23 A. No, I know of it -- I have not seen the

24 document, but I know of it, that the prisoners should

25 have been transferred to Zenica because of

Page 11286

1 unavailability of court space in Konjic. It was only

2 -- that was only made available in 1993, but

3 personally I did not see this document. It was not in

4 my domain.

5 Q. But you know these things, Sir, because even

6 after the joint command ended, there were still

7 meetings between the TO and HVO, where issues such as

8 this were discussed; is that correct?

9 A. I do not know -- I was not present at such

10 meetings, because I was separate -- I was not part of

11 the other staff members.

12 Q. Sir, is it your testimony that in August 1992

13 you were never present at any meetings where Celebici

14 was discussed?

15 A. I did not attend a single meeting in which

16 the Celebici prison was discussed.

17 Q. Who was it who told you that the TO wanted

18 the prisoners moved out of Celebici to Zenica?

19 A. I was told this by my commander, Esad Ramic,

20 that he would request that they be transferred to

21 Zenica, but this was not discussed at the meeting.

22 Q. Sir, do you have any information about

23 Mr. Delalic ordering the TO commander and then Mr. Mucic

24 to undertake certain actions regarding Celebici in

25 August 1992?

Page 11287

1 A. No, I do not know anything about that.

2 Q. Sir, you talked about a visit from the OSCE

3 -- before we get to that, let me ask you, do you know

4 who arranged the Red Cross visits to the Celebici camp?

5 A. I do not know who organised the visit of the

6 OSCE, but I know who tasked me to take this delegation

7 to the Celebici prison. I was tasked that orally by my

8 commander, Esad Ramic.

9 Q. Sir, do you have any information whatsoever

10 about the Red Cross visits to Celebici camp?

11 A. I am not sure about that. I heard about it,

12 but whether they actually came, I do not know.

13 Q. Did you ever receive any instructions, after

14 visits from any international organisation, be it the

15 Red Cross or the OSCE, about various logistic supplies

16 that needed to be provided to Celebici?

17 A. No. Personally, as a logistics organ,

18 I never did.

19 MS. McHENRY: With respect to the OSCE visit,

20 Sir, let me ask you -- and see if this refreshes your

21 memory -- if the person in charge of the delegation was

22 a black American named Mr. Blackwell? Does that refresh

23 your recollection as to who it was who was in charge of

24 the delegation.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you not think it

Page 11288

1 would be better if you ask him the question? It makes

2 life easier for both of you.

3 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you remember whether or

4 not the name of the person who was in charge of the

5 delegation was a Mr. Blackwell.

6 JUDGE JAN: He said he was an

7 African-American -- that is what he said this morning.

8 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Sir.

9 JUDGE JAN: Ask him does he know the name.

10 MS. McHENRY: Sir, do you know the name of

11 the African-American who was in charge of this

12 delegation?

13 A. No, this morning I said what I knew -- if

14 I did know, I would have said the name.

15 Q. Was there a third person who went with you to

16 Celebici besides Mr. Tahirovic?

17 A. The third person was my driver, who drove us

18 -- he parked and stayed in the vehicle waiting for us.

19 Q. What is your driver's name?

20 A. The driver's name is Esad Alijic.

21 MS. McHENRY: You would agree that, on this

22 visit, the delegation saw the cement wall at the front

23 of the camp, which had bullet marks on it.

24 MR. MORAN: I object. I think that is a

25 misstatement of what the report said. The report said

Page 11289

1 what "wooden" wall, not a "concrete" wall, is what

2 I believe the OSCE report says.

3 JUDGE JAN: No bullet marks.

4 MS. McHENRY: I did not ask him anything

5 about what the report said, since he said he did not

6 see it. I asked him if they saw the cement wall at the

7 entrance to the prison with bullet holes in it.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he knows, he would

9 answer it.

10 MS. McHENRY: Is it correct that, Sir, the

11 delegation saw the cement wall, that is, right after

12 you come into the camp, and that this wall has bullet

13 holes in it?

14 A. I do not know about the concrete wall. I can

15 explain where the concrete wall is on this model here.

16 I did not notice this -- I really do not know what you

17 are referring to, because the entire compound has a

18 concrete wall.

19 Q. Okay. Sir, you indicated that -- let me just

20 ask you -- the members of the delegation went and

21 visited the infirmary, the makeshift infirmary in the

22 Celebici camp, did they not?

23 A. Yes, they did visit it.

24 Q. And there were injured people in the

25 infirmary, were there not?

Page 11290

1 A. I already stated that we did not enter, in

2 order for the delegation to be able to talk to the

3 prisoners.

4 Q. I am sorry, Sir, you indicated, if

5 I understood you correctly this morning, that you

6 visited the hangar where you noticed -- where you

7 entered and left. Did you also enter the infirmary at

8 all?

9 A. No, I did not enter the infirmary and that is

10 what I said, that the delegation visited the prisoners

11 and the infirmary, but I myself did not enter the

12 infirmary.

13 Q. Sir, around the time of this visit, or at any

14 other time, to your knowledge, was there anyone in

15 Konjic associated with the military or with Celebici

16 whose name was Mr. Belalic?

17 A. I have never heard of him, nor do I know who

18 this is.

19 Q. You indicated this morning that, as far as

20 you were concerned, the OSCE delegation was satisfied

21 with the conditions in Celebici. You would agree with

22 me that the members of the commission never told you

23 that they were satisfied, did they?

24 A. No, this morning I said that, when they left,

25 they thanked us, they were smiling and they did not say

Page 11291

1 anything to us about that.

2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have finished my

3 questions. I want to check one exhibit to see if it is

4 already in evidence or not. Maybe the Registrar can

5 tell me, is Exhibit D129, which is the order from the

6 war presidency about the blankets, whether or not that

7 has been admitted. If not, I would ask that it be

8 admitted.

9 JUDGE JAN: As far as I can see, this order

10 is not addressed to any particular person. Copies have

11 been sent to a number of authorities -- the command,

12 the logistic body, the presidency and AA, but it is not

13 addressed to any particular authority.

14 MS. McHENRY: It is not addressed, but my

15 translation has as the first sentence, "We order

16 herewith to the Konjic municipality Defence Force

17 Logistics Body".

18 This has not been admitted into evidence, it

19 is a Defence exhibit. I would ask that it be admitted

20 into evidence.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you think it has

22 much substance?

23 JUDGE JAN: The concern of the municipality

24 about the blankets in Celebici might indicate the

25 connection between the camp and the presidency.

Page 11292

1 MS. McHENRY: Yes, your Honour, it may, but

2 we believe that it is relevant and useful. We will

3 argue at a later point its relevance and how it, with

4 all the other evidence, indicates the coordinator's

5 role in this.

6 JUDGE JAN: One of the important questions

7 here would be who set up the camp, the detention

8 centre. In June the war presidency is bothered about

9 the condition of the prisoners with regard to weather

10 because it is asking them to supply blankets.

11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, there is an amount

12 of material seized in Vienna that goes directly to the

13 issue of who set up the camp and we will certainly

14 argue that at a later point, as well as all the related

15 and corroborating documents such as this order of the

16 blankets.


18 MS. RESIDOVIC: We do not oppose it being

19 admitted into evidence, and obviously the Defence will

20 offer its own evidence to counter the evidence

21 presented by the Prosecution.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any

23 re-examination?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will not have many

25 questions, your Honours, but I would prefer if I could

Page 11293

1 ask them after the recess, please.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will soon rise.

3 Before we do, I just received a note from the Registrar

4 here, and I read it in the words of the note:

5 "Mr. Mucic will not come. He claims a doctor

6 and says he is not in condition to come. Deputy

7 Registrar will come to see you during the break with

8 more information."

9 This is what I have just got. The Trial

10 Chamber will now rise and reassemble at 4.30.

11 (4.00 p.m.)

12 (A short break)

13 (4.40 p.m.)

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Greaves, we are

15 happy to find you here now.

16 MR. GREAVES: I am most grateful for your

17 kind thought, your Honour.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We have been in some

19 difficulty with your client. What do you think his

20 position is?

21 MR. GREAVES: There is a difficulty which has

22 been raised. Representations are being made through

23 the usual channels, if I may describe them as such,

24 concerning his ability to have access to an

25 investigator, who has been employed upon his behalf

Page 11294

1 working in the Konjic area.

2 He has been faced, if I may put it very

3 shortly, with a decision thus: because of the

4 logistics of allowing the investigator into the prison

5 whilst we are in trial, which can only happen at

6 weekends, he has been faced with a choice of seeing her

7 and taking her report during the court day, or not

8 seeing her at all. So, he has decided that he is going

9 to remain at the prison, receiving the information that

10 she has, rather than attending court. In that sense,

11 he does not consider that he has been presented with a

12 voluntary choice about waiver of his right to attend

13 court, which he plainly has. He does not consider he

14 has been voluntarily placed in a position where he can

15 take a voluntary decision and, therefore, is not

16 attending court for that reason.

17 This morning I was asked to go to the prison

18 to see him and to take instructions from him, which

19 I have done. When I visited him there, he was plainly

20 engaged in lengthy conversation and a huge pile of

21 files, with that investigator. So it is not a question

22 of him simply sitting idly in the prison being

23 discourteous to your Honours. I am sure that he does

24 not intend any discourtesy by what he has done, but

25 this, of course, is a crucial period for him, as any

Page 11295

1 defendant would experience during the Defence case, and

2 his Defence is the next one to arise, some time during

3 the course of the early part of this summer.

4 He feels that he must concentrate on dealing

5 with his investigator. At the moment, the security

6 rule is that she cannot come into our part of the

7 Defence area at all and is therefore being prevented

8 from seeing him during the day in any way at all.

9 That, of course, is very different from the situation

10 which obtains for the Prosecution, who have unfettered

11 rights to see their investigator during the course of a

12 day, so there is plainly an equality of arms

13 consideration to be considered by your Honours, if

14 necessary.

15 I say "if necessary", because I am anxious

16 that these sort of matters can be resolved by

17 diplomacy, through the usual channels which I

18 described. I know that other counsel in this case are

19 most concerned at the restrictions that are being

20 placed on their investigators having contact during the

21 trial with their clients.

22 There is an importance here, because an

23 investigator may have information which he or she

24 wishes to discuss with the defendant, which has a

25 bearing upon evidence actually being given in court at

Page 11296

1 the time. If access is being prevented between an

2 investigator and a defendant whilst someone is giving

3 evidence about him in court, an injustice may occur,

4 because that information may not get through to the

5 defendant, who may not realise its significance, and it

6 may not then get passed on to counsel who are given the

7 task of cross-examining that witness.

8 These are difficulties which have arisen

9 because, as I understand it, of a security concern. It

10 is right that security be a matter of concern to us

11 all. Defence counsel are worried about who comes into

12 the Defence area. Only just recently, a member of the

13 Office of the Prosecution was found trying to interview

14 a defendant in the Defence area -- something about

15 which we felt the need to complain.

16 Your Honours, as I say, we would prefer to

17 deal with this by the usual channels, but it appears

18 that the matter has been somewhat forced upon us by

19 your Honours' enquiries as to why it was that Mr. Mucic

20 was not here.

21 I have been reading, because I was out of

22 court preparing a document in connection with this

23 matter to be transmitted to the Registry, the exchanges

24 and the motion, indeed, that has been made by the

25 Prosecution. My learned friend, of course, is an

Page 11297

1 experienced lawyer and I respect him enormously.

2 I cannot think that an invitation to bring a man here

3 by force at this stage was perhaps the most politic

4 thing to do. It might be sensible if he rethought the

5 wisdom of that motion, which of course will have to be

6 transmitted to the defendant. It may prove to be more

7 inflammatory and, therefore, rather unhelpful as far as

8 the defendant is concerned if he knows that the

9 Prosecution wants to have him forcibly brought here

10 because of this matter. I would invite him -- politely,

11 I hope, and I hope he will take it in that regard -- to

12 consider whether he should withdraw that motion at this

13 stage.

14 Your Honours, I hope I have explained the

15 problem as concisely as I may.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear you. I think

17 I have listened to you patiently.

18 MR. GREAVES: If I can assist you any further

19 in any way, I will do so.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you could, there are

21 a few problems which might have been cleared up even

22 before this whole incident started. It does appear

23 that Mr. Mucic took his position without letting the

24 Trial Chamber know his difficulties and, taking his

25 position voluntarily, with what he considered his own

Page 11298

1 private pressures, and then assuming that he was still

2 retaining his rights and now he appears to be eating

3 his cake and having it at the same time. If he was in

4 court, if there were any difficulties which were

5 upsetting him, then there are so many channels to make

6 an application to the Trial Chamber and then the Trial

7 Chamber would look at doing something about it, but for

8 him to stay away on his own and tying the hands of the

9 Trial Chamber, because he thinks that is the best

10 course for him to take, that is perhaps assuming that

11 we are not holding a criminal trial.

12 I think, because of a lot of the human rights

13 provisions, many people assume that this is nothing

14 like a criminal trial. He is forcibly here and he

15 should be made to face his trial. If there are reasons

16 why he should be allowed to stay away, obviously the

17 Trial Chamber will consider it and perhaps, in this

18 trial, he has been the most offending person of the

19 four accused persons. We have had several reasons from

20 the beginning in which there has been cause to deal

21 with him properly, but, in the interests of fairness

22 and everything, we ignored a few things and allowed

23 things to carry on.

24 There is no reason whatsoever why he could

25 just stay away and, at the same time, tell us that he

Page 11299

1 was reserving his right to be present. He cannot do

2 the two things at the same time. Perhaps people are

3 thinking beyond this period. Even if we do, there are

4 always legal arguments with a particular situation.

5 When you on your own decide to take the law into your

6 own hands, which he knew -- this is not the first time

7 we have dealt with a situation like this -- there have

8 been occasions where Mr. Mucic himself indicated he

9 would be away and there are rights not to be present --

10 he was waiving his right -- and we granted it. If

11 there are good reasons for him to do so this time, why

12 did he not make the same application, instead of

13 deliberately trying to disrupt the proceedings? This

14 is all he was doing and ignoring the other accused

15 persons charged with him. There are certain things

16 which, as counsel, perhaps are expected -- even if one

17 is advising him, you tell him exactly what the position

18 is and we would not ignore it merely because of the

19 insinuations behind what is likely to be the

20 consequence of carrying on without him. I believe he

21 has deliberately stayed away, knowing the full

22 consequences of staying away, and knowing that he had

23 waived his rights by doing so without even speaking to

24 anyone -- it is a different thing if he discussed it

25 with anybody.

Page 11300

1 So he knew his rights, and I think the

2 Trial Chamber will carry on as long as he decides to

3 stay away.

4 MR. GREAVES: Of course, your Honour, I am in

5 the position that I merely transmit to your Honours

6 those instructions that I have.


8 MR. GREAVES: In response to what your Honour

9 has said, can I say this? My understanding is that

10 representations have been made in the past about this

11 particular problem and they have not come to any

12 resolution.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not to this Trial

14 Chamber.

15 MR. GREAVES: We are told, quite firmly, that

16 these are matters with which the Registry is concerned,

17 not your Honours, and therefore we make representations

18 to the people we are told to make representations to

19 and those representations have been made.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: At least, as counsel,

21 you know you could have come under Rule (inaudible) 54

22 to ask for anything which you think the Trial Chamber

23 could do in the interests of the proceedings.

24 MR. GREAVES: Of course. I was not here

25 yesterday afternoon when he decided not to attend.

Page 11301

1 Your Honour, he has been given advice, he has been told

2 what his position is and what his rights are. I am not

3 going to tell your Honours, as I am not allowed to do

4 so, what that advice is. I hope your Honours will

5 expect that it is sensible advice.

6 Your Honour, can I reiterate this: his

7 decision is based on this factor, that he does not

8 consider that he has been given a fair choice between

9 seeing his investigator and waiving his rights to

10 attend. That is the position that he takes.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was a position taken

12 unilaterally.

13 MR. GREAVES: Of course, and he has made that

14 decision. He does not consider the choice with which

15 he has been faced is one which effectively allowed him

16 to make a voluntary waiver of his right to attend.

17 My third point -- and these are instructions

18 I can properly convey to your Honours -- is that he

19 does not wish to be absent, it is not his wish to be

20 absent from these proceedings, but he feels that he has

21 to make a choice and balance the appropriateness of

22 being present in these proceedings and his need to

23 receive a report from his investigator and discuss the

24 consequences of that information.

25 That is his position and I advance it to your

Page 11302

1 Honours. I am, of course, as concerned as anybody that

2 he may not be doing himself any good by acting in this

3 way, but I advance those matters to your Honour,

4 because that is his position and that is where, I am

5 afraid, I can go no further in assisting your Honours,

6 I suspect.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

8 I am sure you appreciate that, after tomorrow, the

9 Trial Chamber is likely to break until about 18 May.

10 So, he has sufficient time within which to deal with

11 these matters.

12 MR. GREAVES: Of course.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The programme is very

14 clear and open for him, if he really meant that that

15 was what was his motivating factor. I still believe

16 there are other reasons for his behaviour, and this is

17 why the Trial Chamber cannot bend towards that type of

18 behaviour. When somebody uses his private motives to

19 suggest that this is the thing which is breaking down

20 his will, it is his own creation. It has nothing to do

21 with us.

22 JUDGE JAN: He had four days -- Friday,

23 Saturday, Sunday and Monday -- to contact his

24 investigator.

25 MR. GREAVES: There is a slight problem with

Page 11303

1 that, your Honour. The Registry does not consider that

2 the telephonic communications between an investigator

3 and a defendant at the detention unit are subject to

4 privilege and, therefore, they monitor those

5 conversations. I respectfully do not agree with their

6 interpretation of the nature of lawyer/client

7 privilege. For those reasons, no sane investigator

8 would have a telephone conversation into which others,

9 who may not have the same interests at heart, can

10 listen.

11 JUDGE JAN: When did the investigator come

12 to The Hague?

13 MR. GREAVES: That, I do not know. My

14 learned friend Mr. Olujic I think can tell me -- I think

15 it was yesterday -- it was yesterday, yes.

16 JUDGE JAN: He will have a number of days to

17 talk to the investigator and, if necessary, if he wants

18 any witness to be recalled, they can be recalled. He

19 can come here and, if necessary, the witness can be

20 recalled. That is no excuse for staying away from the

21 Trial Chamber, because that means that any accused can

22 delay the trial just by staying away and saying, "I am

23 not coming." It means he is really in control of the

24 proceedings, not this Chamber. He did not make any

25 request of this court that he should be given time to

Page 11304

1 talk to his investigator so that he can properly

2 cross-examine the witnesses. He has not said that. He

3 is just staying away. That is --

4 MR. GREAVES: There is no specific example to

5 which I can advert where matters would have been

6 changed by information being given. I merely give an

7 example as to what might happen if he is prevented from

8 having proper access to a member of the Defence team.

9 That is the sort of danger --

10 JUDGE JAN: He should have come and told us

11 that this is the difficulty; he wants to talk to the

12 investigator. We might have found a way so that these

13 proceedings could go on and he could stay away, but he

14 has not done that. He has just chosen to stay away

15 without informing us. We only learnt from the Deputy

16 Registrar that Mr. Mucic refuses to come. That is no

17 way to behave towards a court that is trying him on a

18 criminal charge.

19 MR. GREAVES: Ultimately, he is an adult and

20 has to decide what he wants to do.

21 JUDGE JAN: That is why I said that he is

22 responsible for his own conduct.

23 MR. GREAVES: I adverted to the sort of

24 advice that one might give to a defendant in these

25 circumstances --

Page 11305

1 JUDGE JAN: I am sure you must have given

2 him very clear legal advice -- there is no doubt it.

3 We are talking about the conduct of Mr. Mucic.

4 MR. GREAVES: If he declines to accept that

5 advice, there is not a great deal I can do about it.

6 JUDGE JAN: He will have a number of days

7 after tomorrow to talk to the investigator to his

8 heart's content. If he thinks there is some material

9 he wants to elicit from the witness, if necessary, they

10 can be recalled. Why hold up these proceedings by just

11 staying away?

12 MR. GREAVES: I think I have said all that

13 I can properly say within the confines of my

14 professional duty. Perhaps I have even slightly

15 exceeded it.

16 JUDGE JAN: Have you told him he has a right

17 to be present at his trial and he can always waive that

18 right? In the past he has asked for permission to stay

19 away for some reason or another and that has been

20 granted.

21 MR. GREAVES: I have explained to him in as

22 clear a detail as I can what his rights are and not in

23 relation to his attendance at this trial. I have given

24 him advice about whether I consider his action to be

25 right or not or sensible or not --

Page 11306

1 JUDGE JAN: I cannot ask what advice you

2 have given to him because that is privileged. I am

3 sure you must have told him, "You have a right to be

4 present, but you can always waive that right" -- by

5 conduct even.

6 MR. GREAVES: It does not require a

7 mastermind, I suspect, to imagine the nature of advice

8 that one gives to a defendant in these circumstances,

9 and I have been at this game long enough to give sound

10 advice, I hope along the lines which your Honour is

11 thinking. But, ultimately, he is entitled to reject my

12 advice, and he does not have to accept it and, if he

13 has chosen to reject my advice, then that is ultimately

14 a matter for him, but he did ask me to make it plain to

15 your Honours that he was trying not to be discourteous

16 to you. I hope that your Honours will accept that in

17 the spirit in which he gave it to me.

18 I think I have said all I can say. My

19 instructions are that he is unlikely to attend

20 tomorrow.

21 JUDGE JAN: Do we have a right to ask a

22 person to be present forcibly? You say no -- he is in

23 our custody.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 JUDGE JAN: He can make any statement before

Page 11307

1 us and then we will decide what to do.

2 MR. GREAVES: I suspect that ultimately you

3 can insist on someone being brought, for example, for

4 the purposes of sentence -- although I am just trying

5 to think of my experiences in England in the past --

6 there have been instances where defendants have said,

7 "Terribly sorry, your Honour, I am not coming back to

8 listen to any more of this trial" and that defendant

9 has remained in the cells downstairs throughout the

10 trial, including sentence. So, although he is brought

11 to court, that is mainly to avail him of the

12 opportunity to come upstairs if he wishes to do so.

13 I do not think I have ever seen anybody

14 forcibly brought into court against his will. It might

15 be an assault -- I do not know. I would want to think

16 a bit more clearly about that -- I know that is the

17 matter that my learned friend raised earlier.

18 JUDGE JAN: He can be brought to the cell,

19 he cannot be brought to the court in England?

20 MR. GREAVES: I do not think he can be forced

21 physically to come into the court --

22 JUDGE JAN: Not the court, the cell down

23 below the court.

24 MR. GREAVES: He is brought to the cells in

25 order that if he chooses to come upstairs, he can do

Page 11308

1 so. I have known of instances where the defendant has

2 insisted on remaining at the remand prison and not

3 physically coming to the building. In those

4 circumstances, appropriate enquires are made, and if

5 the learned judge who is trying the case is satisfied

6 that it is a voluntary decision, then stay at the

7 prison or stay in the cells, he will. It is not thought

8 hands can be laid on him and he can be forced in a

9 vehicle to bring him to the prison. Of course, he can

10 be retained in the prison as a result of an order of

11 the court, either by way of sentence or by way of

12 removing his bail, but that is a matter of statute and

13 practice rather than anything else.

14 JUDGE JAN: There is no violation of

15 humanitarian law if he is brought to the cell but not

16 to the court?

17 MR. GREAVES: It is slightly more

18 complicated. In England and Wales, we do not as yet

19 have in force the European Convention of Human Rights

20 as part of English law. So, the question of fair trial

21 provisions being embodied in a document does not at the

22 present time have --

23 THE INTERPRETER: May the counsel slow down

24 for the benefit of the --

25 MR. GREAVES: -- to import into English law

Page 11309

1 the provisions of the European Convention.

2 JUDGE JAN: What does the European

3 Convention say where the accused deliberately stays

4 away?

5 MR. GREAVES: I am grateful that your Honour

6 asked me that question. I do not know the answer.

7 I am perfectly prepared --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is a choice.

9 MR. GREAVES: I will find out.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, refusing to

11 attend is a matter of choice -- a conscious choice.

12 MR. GREAVES: My instinctive reaction is it

13 would be very difficult to find persuasive legal

14 authority which says that your Honours can have hands

15 laid on him and he be dragged into court. It would be,

16 of course, most undignified as well, and may well lead

17 to further problems, which one need not go into at this

18 stage.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has made his choice

20 and I suppose the Trial Chamber is entitled to carry on

21 with whatever procedural provisions it has to conclude

22 this trial. Personally, I do not think I care -- if he

23 says he is not interested in defending the allegations

24 against him, he should lie on the bed he makes.

25 MR. GREAVES: I do not know whether any of my

Page 11310

1 learned friends who act for other defendants wish to

2 say anything about the general proposition concerning

3 investigators. It may be that some would wish to say

4 something. I invite your Honours to hear anything they

5 may wish to say.

6 MS. McMURREY: If we might be heard for one

7 moment, the Defence for Esad Landzo has a letter to the

8 Registry on file. We, of course, do not condone

9 Mr. Mucic's method of protest, but the premise that he

10 is putting before this court is something that is of

11 great concern to us right now. Although the court has

12 a solution to it right now, which is meet with the

13 investigator after tomorrow when court has adjourned,

14 the rumour is that, starting 18 May, we will be going

15 straight through. We have expert witnesses, we have

16 investigators that need to have access to the defendant

17 in order to consult with them, to prepare for the

18 Defence. Right now, only attorneys are allowed at the

19 prison after hours, and no experts and no investigators

20 are allowed back here. The defendants have 30 minutes

21 in the morning, they have an hour and a half at

22 lunch-time, they have 30 minutes --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could Defence counsel

24 please slow down?

25 MS. McMURREY: That is wasted time that could

Page 11311

1 be utilised for consultation, and so we perceive that

2 there is going to be a major problem when we are faced

3 with preparing the Defence after 18 May and not having

4 access to the defendant at that time. So, I ask the

5 court, even though I think the proper way is first to

6 consult the Registry, that this is a problem that needs

7 to be solved now before we are faced with more dilemmas

8 with more defendants starting 18 May.

9 I am going on the rumour that we are going

10 straight through from then. We will have a real

11 problem starting that date.

12 JUDGE JAN: Take it up with the Registry

13 first. If you have any problems, you can bring it to

14 our notice.

15 MS. McMURREY: I have a letter on file with

16 the Registry dealing with that issue.

17 JUDGE JAN: It is quite usual in such

18 circumstances to see the judges in Chambers with any

19 difficulty.

20 MS. McMURREY: If we cannot get it resolved

21 in a normal way, we will file a motion in writing with

22 the court.

23 JUDGE JAN: We would not like a situation

24 where you are in an impossible position.

25 MS. McMURREY: Thank you for your

Page 11312

1 consideration. I wanted you to realise there could be

2 a problem if it is not resolved soon.

3 JUDGE JAN: What happens in the States when

4 an accused refuses to enter the courtroom?

5 MS. McMURREY: I think he can be brought

6 against his will into the courtroom in the US. I have

7 never had that opportunity. If Mr. Moran has more

8 experience with that, then I certainly will defer to

9 his experience in that area.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as far as I know,

11 the cases are not exactly like this. The Supreme Court

12 of the United States has ruled that, once you have been

13 arraigned and pled the indictment, if you escape, jump

14 bond, or otherwise decide not to come back, the trial

15 can continue. The court has also held, in disruptive

16 defendant cases, that the trial judge has several

17 options, one of which is to gag and bind the defendant

18 in front of the jury -- which, I might add, does not

19 help the presumption of innocence much.

20 JUDGE JAN: No, but that will be against

21 humanitarian law, the gagging of an accused.

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I hate to -- well,

23 given what the State of Virginia did --

24 JUDGE JAN: I do not want to criticise the

25 American judges, but I wondered.

Page 11313

1 MR. MORAN: Given what the State of Virginia

2 did a couple of days ago in violation of an order from

3 the ICJ, I do not know that I want particularly to

4 defend --

5 JUDGE JAN: They executed a man from

6 Paraguay.

7 MR. MORAN: Yes. I have seen, although

8 I have not been involved in cases, where defendants

9 have been bound and gagged in the courtroom. I have

10 seen very large deputy sheriffs help defendants from

11 holding cells into the courtroom.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We do not intend to go

13 that way. We do not want to appear in the media for

14 such funny approaches to criminal trials.

15 JUDGE JAN: What happens in Italy when the

16 accused refuses to come?

17 MR. TURONE: If it is a matter of health, the

18 judges will send a doctor of course, and if there is no

19 real reason to be absent, the accused can be forcibly

20 brought to court.

21 JUDGE JAN: I believe that, in Australia,

22 they follow the English example?

23 MR. NIEMANN: No, not quite. I am not

24 familiar with the English position. In Australia, you

25 can be forced -- brought to the court by force, because

Page 11314

1 once you have been arraigned, you are in the charge of

2 the court and the court can order it. More often, it

3 happens the other way, where you have an accused who is

4 disruptive and the court wants him removed. That

5 creates --

6 JUDGE JAN: That is a different situation.

7 MR. NIEMANN: That is a more complicated

8 problem. There is no question about being brought

9 before the court.

10 JUDGE JAN: What happens in Bosnia -- you

11 were a public prosecutor there?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, as a prosecutor, but

13 I was never present in a courtroom where somebody was

14 brought in by force. But, according to our rules, the

15 accused can be brought outside the courtroom,

16 handcuffed, and, after that, the handcuffs are removed

17 and he is brought in. There are some exceptions. If

18 he is disruptive in the courtroom or tries to escape,

19 then he can be handcuffed and he can stay in court

20 handcuffed. Since our rules also envisage the

21 possibility of the accused being brought by force in

22 front of the courtroom, then my question is how, if he

23 refuses to enter the courtroom itself, how then could

24 the court make him come in without violating the

25 Rules?

Page 11315

1 Your Honours, though I do not think that this

2 is a question of such importance that we should

3 interrupt the proceedings, as all the colleagues have

4 drawn attention to the problem of the investigator, and

5 we, as the Delalic Defence are presenting our case just

6 now, there is another problem, that is, the limited

7 number of hours given to the Defence investigators,

8 which is not the case for the Prosecution

9 investigators.

10 For this reason, we personally had problems.

11 We have used 96 hours, and now that we have speeded up

12 the investigation prior to the beginning of the Defence

13 case, I must say that the Registry gave us a privileged

14 right, but I think that this should be generally

15 applied to Defence, that it may have as much time as it

16 needs for the investigation to prepare its Defence case

17 properly. It happened that we produced the document at

18 the last moment, because we had to concentrate our

19 efforts only a month or two before the beginning of our

20 case.

21 One further point: an investigator cannot

22 talk to the client without our presence in the

23 detention unit and I think that this makes the problem

24 even more difficult and, if the court would like to

25 rule about this, proceeding from the right of the

Page 11316

1 Defence to prepare its case, then I think the Registry

2 should be advised how to deal with this problem and to

3 ensure the possibility for the Defence to properly

4 prepare its case.

5 MR. GREAVES: I think the Australians, as

6 might be expected, take a more robust view than the

7 English about these matters.


9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, your Honour.

10 JUDGE JAN: He can talk to the accused in the

11 two or three weeks when we do not meet. If necessary,

12 the witness can be recalled for further

13 cross-examination.

14 MR. GREAVES: I know that as well as you do,

15 your Honours. Those are matters that one has

16 canvassed. I have conveyed to your Honours his

17 decision for the present time. It is hoped that in the

18 intervening period some resolution can be effected with

19 the Registry that resolves matters. If not, it may be

20 that recourse has to be had to a motion for your

21 Honours to deal with the matter, as it would plainly

22 pertain to the conduct of the trial.

23 Of course, if those rights need to be

24 exercised, they will be. But, as I said earlier, one

25 does not like to have to deal with them in open court,

Page 11317

1 if at all possible. These are matters which are

2 generally much better dealt with through the usual

3 channels, but if the usual channels do not produce the

4 result the defendants want, then of course they are

5 entitled to instruct their lawyers to present motions

6 to the Tribunal and ask for a definitive ruling on the

7 law from your Honours. As I say, that may yet be

8 necessary, but one hopes not.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

10 Mr. Greaves. I think our preoccupation now is to ensure

11 that this case goes on, irrespective of what an accused

12 person thinks. The most important thing for an accused

13 person is to ensure that he stays and hears the case

14 against him. If he has any reason why he should not,

15 then he would inform the Trial Chamber and then we will

16 know why he has not been able to stay to hear the case

17 against him.

18 I suppose the best method is what Mr. Greaves

19 has suggested and that is diplomacy and actual

20 consultation with the Registry and all those concerned

21 with the administrative structure and, where that

22 fails, then perhaps you can seek a definition of what

23 the law is. I think it has not gone that far here.

24 I agree there might be times when one might be

25 frustrated, but you do not take your frustration out on

Page 11318

1 the whole system and let it crumble, because you think

2 you want your own way. That might be what I would

3 regard as too negative for the purposes of one's

4 argument.

5 In these circumstances, I think we might not

6 push it as far as perhaps what is possible, but I think

7 the accused should appear and defend himself, but if he

8 does not appear and deliberately stays away, I think

9 I regard him as having taken a conscious choice to stay

10 away. Because he is very familiar with the consequences

11 of absence and we will take him as having waived his

12 rights to be present. I have tried to avoid the

13 incidence of any negative publicity. I am not familiar

14 with that type of practice.

15 I might say that I have been a common law

16 judge for the past 22 years and I have never seen this

17 type of impudence. If an accused person has any reason

18 why he should not be in the court, he should have the

19 common courtesy to tell the court. Being an accused

20 person does not mean you are a common criminal. You

21 should have your common-sense and you should know what

22 is good for the system as a whole. To stay away and

23 expect everybody to crawl because you think you have an

24 argument is perhaps the worst thing anybody could

25 accept.

Page 11319

1 As I stated at the beginning, this is a

2 criminal trial and it has all the force of the law in

3 support of bringing the accused -- it might look funny,

4 but we do not think in the circumstances that we need

5 to exert that force, because we have enough to do

6 that. The accused person is well -- if it is on health

7 grounds, then we would know. We would not disobey the

8 doctor's certificate -- and we have obeyed it several

9 times, even without hearing from the doctor, we have

10 obeyed the request to see doctors. There are certain

11 things that one does not accept, so that we would not

12 create that precedence. Any time such an accused wants

13 certain things done, he goes about it in that way and

14 laughs at the system of justice, as if it is a fool --

15 it is not that foolish. Justice is not that foolish,

16 as most criminals think it is.

17 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, one matter

18 I omitted to tell your Honours and I should do so.

19 I understand that, during the latter part of the

20 afternoon sitting your Honours had intimation that

21 Mr. Mucic was unwell and could not attend for that

22 reason. Your Honours, it may have occurred to you that

23 was simply an excuse not to come to court. Can I tell

24 your Honours this: Mr. Mucic has recently been

25 diagnosed by the prison medical authorities as having a

Page 11320

1 severe lumbar problem and I have been in correspondence

2 with the prison medical doctor concerning that matter.

3 During the course of the day, the court

4 sittings, he experiences increasing pain and begins to

5 hyperventilate. Representations are currently being

6 made concerning that medical condition and the routine

7 of the court to see whether we can find some way of

8 alleviating that.

9 The doctor has diagnosed that that causes

10 some interference with his ability to concentrate on

11 proceedings. I mention this now, because I did not

12 want your Honours to think that this is some spurious

13 medical condition that the defendant has dreamed up in

14 order to thwart your Honours' desire to have him here

15 this afternoon. There is a recognised problem and it

16 does affect him quite badly.

17 Your Honours may have noticed that he has

18 been carrying a towel in court of late. That is

19 because the hyperventilation causes him to sweat really

20 very badly, and he has been in considerable

21 discomfort. I mention that, as I say, because I should

22 not wish your Honours to think that he had dreamed up

23 the excuse of a medical condition. I have seen the

24 medical report and he plainly does have such a

25 condition. Towards the end of a day, when he has been

Page 11321

1 sitting in the same position or the same chair, he

2 plainly does suffer considerable discomfort and I note

3 that it was later in the day when he asked not to

4 attend court, because he was feeling unwell.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I understand.

6 I suppose actually I thought perhaps it might be a

7 cumulative thing. If not, the court does not sit for

8 more than one and a half hours at a stretch -- none of

9 our sittings exceed one and a half hours. I agree

10 that, cumulatively, for the day, it comes to about five

11 hours, that that --

12 MR. GREAVES: I did not want to litigate the

13 issue of the court's routine in open court. I wanted

14 to make it plain to your Honours that there is a

15 medical condition and that that is not something he

16 dreamed up like that.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I had it also for

18 sitting for a long time here and I was limping at the

19 time.

20 MR. GREAVES: I know your Honour is not

21 unique in that sense, because I know Mr. Delic at one

22 stage was suffering from back problems, and

23 I understand they are now much better.

24 JUDGE JAN: This is not the excuse he has

25 offered for not coming to the court.

Page 11322

1 MR. GREAVES: I was not in court, but

2 I understood your Honours had had a message to say he

3 was not prepared to come this afternoon on medical

4 grounds.

5 JUDGE JAN: We were told that, since the

6 Registrar is not permitting him to meet the

7 investigator in the Tribunal premises, he is just

8 staying away.

9 MR. GREAVES: I am relying on what I saw on

10 the transcript, which is that your Honours had asked

11 for him to be brought to court this afternoon; that the

12 reply had come back that he was unwell. I merely wish

13 to explain to your Honours that that is not some means

14 of thwarting your Honours' desire -- there is a genuine

15 medical condition, with which I have been dealing and

16 about which I have been making representations, and I

17 am anxious that your Honours did not think that there

18 was some deliberate act of defiance because of some

19 imagined medical condition.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I can realise the

21 conduct of accused persons here -- he can fall into a

22 very high category of deliquesce -- we think it is not

23 necessary to go on using a system of past conduct to

24 determine how a person behaves. There are so many

25 reasons why one could regard some of these complaints

Page 11323

1 as merely a stratagem to determine what he wants to do,

2 but all we are interested in is to carry on with the

3 trial, and ensure that everybody has a fair trial.

4 Nobody should interfere or be in the way of the other

5 accused persons.

6 The position of the Trial Chamber is one of

7 an unbiased umpire which looks at both sides with

8 equality and makes sure that nobody suffers from the

9 misdemeanours of the other. I do not think it helps us

10 if we are now to allow one person to get away with this

11 type of conduct merely for some preconceived notions of

12 what he thinks is fair or not. It is a pity that we

13 spent such a considerable time on such an irrelevant

14 and foolish thing. It has not helped us at all. We

15 could have got on and done something more sensible.

16 Thank you very much, Mr. Greaves.

17 MR. GREAVES: It is my pleasure as always,

18 your Honours.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms.. Residovic?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I was expecting

21 the witness to be called, for whom I only have a few

22 more questions and then this witness could be

23 discharged, so that these problems that we are having

24 should have no effect on him.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I do not know how long

Page 11324

1 you can keep him. Let us call him. You make sure that

2 you get him to answer your few questions.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is re-examination.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let the witness come.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could Sefkija Kevric be

6 called, please?

7 (The witness entered court)

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remind him he is still

9 on his oath.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, Sir, that you

11 are still on your oath.

12 THE WITNESS: I understand that.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms.. Residovic, you

14 may proceed.

15 Re-examined by MS. RESIDOVIC

16 Q. Mr. Kevric, are you very knowledgeable

17 regarding people's handwriting?

18 A. It is hard to say. The handwriting may

19 remind you of somebody, but it is hard for one to tell

20 100 per cent -- only if one recognises the document by

21 its contents.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Will you please show the

23 witness Exhibit D88/1, shown to him by the Prosecutor

24 earlier on? (Handed).

25 In answer to a question from the Prosecution,

Page 11325

1 Mr. Kevric, you said that this was Mr. Delalic's

2 handwriting. How do you know that it is his

3 handwriting?

4 A. This document, this request reached me.

5 Mr. Zejnil Delalic called me up on the phone and a

6 representative of the Mostar Brigade took over the

7 ammunition. For these reasons, I can say that it is

8 his signature. I cannot claim 100 per cent, because a

9 signature can be forged.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, very much. Will

11 you please show the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit 119?

12 (Handed).

13 Mr. Kevric, do you recognise the handwriting

14 of this document?

15 MS. McHENRY: Asked and answered, your

16 Honour.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: It has not been answered,

18 your Honour. It remained vague. The witness answered

19 only with respect to the signature. That is why I am

20 now asking, for the sake of clarification, if he could

21 answer this question.

22 THE WITNESS: Of course it is normally

23 difficult to recognise this signature as Mr. Zejnil

24 Delalic's, or anybody else's signature for that

25 matter. I said that the signature reminds me of

Page 11326

1 Mr. Zejnil Delalic's signature. As I have just said, it

2 is possible to make a forgery, and I am not an expert

3 on handwriting, so I cannot say.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is precisely what you

5 said, that the signature reminds you of Mr. Delalic's

6 signature. My question is, who wrote the body of the

7 document?

8 A. No, I cannot tell you that. I cannot say

9 that it is Mr. Delalic's handwriting.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Could the document

11 be returned to the Registry? Could the witness be

12 shown document D129/1? It has also been numbered as

13 D144/1, volume 2/12.

14 It is a document about the blankets, is it

15 not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Mr. Kevric, do you see anywhere on this

18 document that it has been addressed to the coordinator,

19 or that it mentions the coordinator?

20 A. No.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Can it be returned

22 to the files, and my last question for you, Mr. Kevric,

23 you were asked several questions as to whether you took

24 any measures to improve the food provided to

25 prisoners. The Prosecutor insisted on the prisoners

Page 11327

1 and your answer was that it applied to everybody. My

2 question is, who did we depend, you in Konjic and

3 everybody else, in 1992, for obtaining food and other

4 supplies?

5 A. I have already said that what we could, we

6 provided. The only way for us was for the world

7 community -- the world -- to send the supplies and

8 assist us, so that, at the time, we depended on the

9 international community's mercy. I already said that

10 the first quantity of flour reached us in August 1992.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Kevric, I have

12 no further questions.

13 JUDGE JAN: I have two questions.

14 You took that team of OSCE to the Celebici

15 camp. Did you meet the commandant -- the team and you,

16 did you meet the commandant?

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I have to say

18 once again that it was not a camp but a prison -- the

19 Celebici prison.

20 JUDGE JAN: Let me use the word "prison" as

21 you have said -- did you meet the commandant or the

22 governor of the prison?

23 THE WITNESS: I really do not know who was

24 there among the representatives with us -- I just

25 cannot remember that at this moment.

Page 11328

1 JUDGE JAN: You also spoke about some

2 telephone calls between you and Pavo Mucic. In what

3 capacity was Mucic talking to you.

4 THE WITNESS: No, I said that I do not

5 remember Mr. Pavo Mucic talking to me. It is possible

6 -- I am not denying it, but I do not remember.

7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I have one

8 question, if I might.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Arising from the

10 re-examination?

11 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Sir, absolutely.

12 Re-cross-examined by MS. McHENRY

13 Q. During the break, after cross-examination was

14 finished, did you meet with Ms.. Residovic?

15 A. Ms.. Residovic came.

16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There is one question

18 I want to clear up.

19 Do you know of any relationship between the

20 Tactical Group 1 and the prison?

21 THE WITNESS: I do not. I have already said

22 that Tactical Group 1 is a unit, which had authority

23 only over the units which were attached to it, and

24 those were units that were assigned there by the

25 municipal staffs to execute a specific task.

Page 11329

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you know whether any

2 of the officers of the Tactical Group worked in the

3 prison.

4 THE WITNESS: No, I really do not know about

5 that.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

7 I think this is all you have for this witness?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, your Honour, we have

9 another witness, but I assume that it is best that we

10 leave him for tomorrow morning.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will take the next

12 witness first thing tomorrow morning.

13 MR. NIEMANN: Might we just ask in relation

14 to this witness that he not be fully discharged -- that

15 he be permitted to go home, of course, but that he be

16 subject to recall, should anything emerge?

17 JUDGE JAN: As I said, if necessary, we can

18 recall him.

19 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because you have

21 examined, you have cross-examined, you have

22 re-examined.

23 MR. NIEMANN: It is not something we expect

24 to happen.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am not making any

Page 11330

1 reservations for persons who have exercised their

2 rights.

3 MR. NIEMANN: Absolutely. In relation to

4 the Mucic matter, your Honour.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

6 You are discharged for now. If it becomes necessary to

7 get in touch with you, the Trial Chamber will contact

8 you. Thank you for all your assistance and all your

9 patience and all your knowledge. We are grateful for

10 the assistance to the Trial Chamber. Thank you very

11 much.

12 I think tomorrow we will start at 10.00 a.m., but

13 I am appealing to you -- take the liberty after

14 4 o'clock to try and discuss quite a number of

15 problems. It appears there are so many creeping

16 problems which we do not know about and there are

17 obvious ones which perhaps we will be able to draw

18 attention to the Defence so that they might help us in

19 trying to cope with the future plans of the Trial

20 Chamber. The Trial Chamber --

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I please

22 address the court? As the witness Enver Tahirovic, who

23 is due to appear tomorrow, is one of the significant

24 participants in the events, a member of the staff and

25 everything else, I shall do my best to complete my

Page 11331

1 examination-in-chief by then, but, please, provide for

2 the possibility for the witness to come back again when

3 we resume work, because I will not be able to finish

4 the examination and cross-examination by 4 o'clock

5 tomorrow.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let us start first and

7 we will see how far we go. Thank you very much. The

8 Trial Chamber will now rise.

9 (At 5.36 p.m. the matter adjourned

10 until Friday, 17 April 1998, at 10.00 a.m.)