1 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances, please?

4 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.

5 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with Mr.

6 Turone and Ms. Udo. Mr. Niemann should be joining us

7 later this afternoon.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

9 I'm Edina Residovic, the Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

10 Delalic, along with my colleague Mr. Eugene O'Sullivan,

11 a professor from Canada. Thank you.

12 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm

13 Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zdravko Mucic,

14 along with my colleague Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic.

15 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

16 I'm Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

17 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic, along with Mr. Thomas

18 Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas. Thank you.

19 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours. My

20 name is Nancy Boler. I represent Esad Landzo. Cynthia

21 McMurrey is still in the United States at the funeral.

22 I'm joined this morning by David Eisen. David is my

23 law partner in Houston who has been approved by the

24 registry as a legal assistant. He will be here today

25 and tomorrow before he goes back to Houston.

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

2 Welcome.

3 MR. EISEN: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we invite the

6 witness, please?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, may I address

8 you for half a minute before the witness is brought

9 back in?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just a minute. Let's

11 see what the subject matter is.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have been thinking about

13 your comments yesterday regarding the presentation of

14 evidence for the Defence, and I would just like to

15 advise you that we have done everything to prepare

16 witnesses for these proceedings. We have two or three

17 witnesses who were very important personalities in

18 Konjic during the period of war, and we have prepared a

19 number of documents with respect to these witnesses.

20 We beg your indulgence in presenting a larger

21 number of documents through these couple of witnesses,

22 and we are fully aware of the time constrictions, but

23 we would like just to give you a prior warning that we

24 have these witnesses, and we beg your indulgence.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hear your plea, but,

1 you know, in every Prosecution or Defence, evidence is

2 led in accordance with the Defence strategy and in

3 answer to the accusations against the accused persons.

4 Now, when evidence, even in answer of an accusation, is

5 put repeatedly and, to some extent, irrelevant, it is

6 the duty of the Trial Chamber to reject them.

7 Now, if you are assuming from your own side

8 that, perhaps, a particular person is very important,

9 merely because of his station in the community or his

10 importance to you, it might still not be the fact that

11 it enables us to establish the truth in accordance with

12 the accusations against the accused.

13 The real duty of the Trial Chamber is to

14 determine what is relevant, not merely because it is

15 repetitive or duplicating, or not merely because

16 counsel thinks it's his duty to present him. As far as

17 we're concerned, we do not think it is right in the

18 interest of justice and in the interest of

19 effectiveness of the trial. Above all, not merely

20 because the Tribunal is paying the cost, it is unfair

21 and does not, frankly, assist the integrity of counsel

22 who is presenting it, that is competent to project and

23 defend the accused who are standing trial, because the

24 Trial Chamber relies on the integrity of counsel and

25 their competence.

1 But if the evidence which is led exposes to

2 the Trial Chamber that what is being done is not

3 competent, it is our duty as Trial Judges to reject

4 it. This is what I believe we intend to do. I've

5 heard what you said, and as we proceed, we'll decide

6 what to do.

7 Let the witness come in.

8 (The witness entered court)

9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel for

10 Mr. Landzo please turn off her microphone?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, there is a

12 technical problem that we are facing right now.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why are we having these

14 technical problems on a daily basis? We should try to

15 check this before.

16 Kindly inform the witness that --

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my apologies to

18 you. I actually do not have a socket available to plug

19 myself in.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's strange because

21 you should have one.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I ask for someone's

23 assistance, please, so that we can get the right jack

24 so we can get plugged in?

25 MS. BOLER: Your Honour, Edina can use mine

1 and we will share until one is available.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

3 your assistance.

4 Please inform the witness he is still under

5 oath.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness may not have

9 heard the registrar.

10 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

11 are still under oath.

12 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I do not get the

13 interpretation.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Check his own

15 headphones, whether they are on.

16 THE WITNESS: It is all right now.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Cerovac, have you heard

18 now?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Did you understand the advice

21 that you are still under oath, sir? Very well.

22 MIDHAT CEROVAC

23 Examined by Ms. Residovic

24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, yesterday we talked about the

25 departure of the Gajret unit from Konjic which, in

1 Pazaric, was subordinated to Mr. Polutak who was

2 commander of Tactical Group 1.

3 Mr. Cerovac, did Mr. Delalic have any kind of

4 command duty in relationship to that unit?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did Mr. Delalic, at that time, have any kind

7 of command position in the Territorial Defence of the

8 Konjic municipality?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you present at the ceremony of the

11 send-off of this unit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If I play you a videotape, I am going to then

14 ask you whether you can recognise it. Can the

15 technical booth please play the videotape, excerpt 1?

16 (Videotape played)

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Can you please fast forward

18 through this portion? Can you now please slow down?

19 Please fast forward for a bit longer. This could be

20 fast forwarded. Now please go for half a minute go

21 slow.

22 Q. Mr. Cerovac, watching this videotape, do you

23 know who is in prison in Sarajevo?

24 A. Babo (phoen).

25 Q. What do you have to do to liberate Babo?

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Could the technical booth

2 please stop here?

3 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know what event is

4 presented on this videotape?

5 A. This event shown here was the send-off of the

6 unit, which we established pursuant to the order of the

7 superior command in Sarajevo, and it was to be

8 subordinated to the Tactical Group 1 in Pazaric and

9 Mr. Polutak was the commander of this unit.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. Since you have

11 already testified that at this time, Mr. Delalic had no

12 commanding role, what was his role at this send-off

13 ceremony?

14 A. If you will recall, I think I already stated

15 this yesterday, Mr. Delalic, through his own

16 connections and acquaintances, managed to equip this

17 unit with uniforms.

18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, we have already heard that. I'm

19 just asking what his role was at the send-off of this

20 unit. Was he there in an honorary position or did he

21 have a military position there?

22 A. Absolutely no military position because at

23 the morning briefing, we agreed, due to the efforts

24 which he invested in equipping the unit, so we agreed

25 to let him speak to the members of this unit as part of

1 the ceremony.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. The Trial Chamber

3 has already seen this material and Mr. Delalic

4 addressed the soldiers with Salam Haleikoum. Can you

5 tell us what kind of greeting this is?

6 JUDGE JAN: You can take this as a greeting

7 from one Muslim to another Muslim.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is exactly what the

9 witness is going to testify to.

10 Q. Is this what one soldier -- how one soldier

11 addresses another?

12 A. The greeting Salam Aleikoum is something used

13 by all Muslims around the world.

14 Q. In these specific circumstances, was this a

15 civilian greeting civilians, or was it a soldier

16 greeting civilians?

17 A. This was a simple greeting of one soldier to

18 another and one civilian to another. He used it

19 throughout.

20 Q. Very well. I think that we are done with

21 this excerpt and I think that the technical booth can

22 remove it.

23 Mr. Cerovac, were you asked by the Brigadier

24 Vejzagic to draft certain charts for his expert

25 opinion?

1 A. Yes, I believe that in late '97 and early

2 '98, I met Mr. Vejzagic for the first time, and I told

3 him that I would endeavour to compile all necessary

4 documents and maps and charts for his expert report.

5 Q. Thank you. Could the witness now please be

6 shown the Defence Exhibit 145 and annex 5D/2?

7 THE REGISTRAR: Please, could you repeat the

8 number?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: 5D/2, which is number 689 and

10 690 of the English and Bosnian text respectively.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, please place the Bosnian text in

13 front of you, and if you could please place the English

14 translation on the ELMO so that the Trial Chamber could

15 follow what we are about to talk about.

16 Mr. Cerovac, is this the chart which you

17 drafted for Brigadier Vejzagic, that is, for his expert

18 report?

19 A. Yes. As you can see in the lower right

20 corner, I even signed it. This is my signature.

21 Q. Mr. Cerovac, according to your knowledge,

22 does this chart reflect the organisation of defence in

23 Konjic in 1992?

24 A. Yes. This is for the period April through

25 October.

1 JUDGE JAN: What year? 1992?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC:

3 Q. What year?

4 A. 1992.

5 Q. To whom were the combat units in Konjic

6 subordinate, that is, the units which you specified in

7 the lower part of your chart?

8 A. This is a complete chart. Also, the system

9 of control and command is also represented here.

10 Q. What type of lines did you use to show the

11 control and command lines? Did you understand that?

12 A. In the legend, this is the full line with the

13 arrow.

14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, it is not necessary to go into

15 the further explaining of this chart, it is enough that

16 you have confirmed that you compiled it.

17 Your Honours, I tender this chart since it

18 has been authenticated by the witness. Would you

19 please tell me what is the exhibit of the Defence?

20 What is the next number?

21 THE REGISTRAR: It has been admitted as it has

22 been marked, D145 annex 5D/2/1.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC:

24 Q. Could the witness now please be shown, and I

25 would like the usher's assistance, this is the Defence

1 Exhibit 145 and then it's 5D/5 and the numbers are 694

2 and, I believe, 695.

3 Mr. Cerovac, I would also will like to ask

4 you if you could place the Bosnian version of the chart

5 in front of you and if you could place the English

6 version on the ELMO. Mr. Cerovac, did you personally

7 draft this chart at the request of Ms. Brigadier?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Does this organisational chart of the

10 municipal headquarters reflect the actual structure of

11 the municipal headquarters in 1992, that is, at the

12 time when you were first a member of and then the chief

13 of the municipal staff?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you show us where your

16 position was in the headquarters, based on this chart?

17 If you can just point at your position on the chart,

18 which is on the ELMO.

19 A. My position is in this rubric where it says

20 "staff" and then the "chief of staff."

21 Q. Thank you. As the witness has identified

22 this document and this document has previously been

23 admitted, I am just going to confirm that the witness

24 has authenticated this document. Can the witness now

25 be shown D145, annex 5D/10?

1 Mr. Cerovac, is this also another chart which

2 you drafted in 1998 for the expert report of Mr.

3 Vacagic (phoen)?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Could you tell us what this chart represents?

6 A. This is a chart reflecting the structure

7 which shows the organisational chart of the joint

8 command of the Territorial Defence and the Croatian

9 Defence Council.

10 Q. Could you please show me your position in

11 this chart? And if you could please do that on the

12 ELMO?

13 A. My position is right here. It is an officer

14 for operations and training and this is the duty that I

15 discharged at the time. I was also on duty shown in

16 the box above. This is assistant commander for chief

17 of staff for operations and training.

18 Q. Very well. This chart, which has been

19 admitted before, has now been authenticated by the

20 person who actually drafted it.

21 Mr. Cerovac, can you tell me whether there

22 were certain minor changes which took place during this

23 period of time with respect to the chart as you have

24 drafted it here?

25 A. The first changes which took place, were

1 those pertaining to the commander of this joint

2 command. This is Mr. Ramic and Mr. Boric. Further

3 changes occurred in the operations and training sector,

4 and I already stated what those were. There was also a

5 change in the security body.

6 Q. I believe that this is sufficient, so there

7 were some minor changes there. Could you tell me who

8 was assistant commander for security in a joint

9 command? The member of which part of the joint forces

10 occupied that position?

11 A. It was a Croatian Defence Council.

12 Q. Do you know who was appointed to that

13 position?

14 A. It was a man from Konjic was appointed to

15 that position. He was an attorney by profession. He

16 was the chief of public security station before the

17 aggression and his name was Mr. Goran Lokas.

18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during this period when the

19 joint command was in existence, was the position of the

20 assistant commander for security always going to the

21 HVO?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In this period, who could appoint as a member

24 of the Prad (phoen) ethnic group to command positions

25 in a staff?

1 A. You mean this, for this staff, this staff of

2 joint command?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. It was exclusively the HVO. That is, the

5 chief of staff, Dinko Zebic, who was also the commander

6 of the HVO units.

7 Q. Thank you. We saw the charts which you

8 drafted. Can you tell me, based on that, was, at any

9 point in time in 1992, Zejnil Delalic a member of the

10 municipal staff of the joint command?

11 A. No, not in practice, not in theory.

12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during 1992, did Mr. Delalic

13 have any position, any command position, in the

14 municipal headquarters?

15 A. No, at no time.

16 Q. During the period when the joint command was

17 in existence, was Mr. Delalic on duty as a member of

18 the joint command?

19 A. No, no, at any time. As you can tell, he's

20 not present on this chart at all.

21 Q. Could a person be in a command position in

22 the staff or the joint command without being appointed

23 to such a duty?

24 A. No, not at all. This cannot happen in any

25 military organisation.

1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you tell us, during the

2 period of time when the joint command was in existence,

3 how were the orders of the joint command issued?

4 A. The orders of the joint command were issued

5 whenever there was common interest involved, that is,

6 when there was a consensus between the commanders of

7 the joint command and the chief of staff of the joint

8 command.

9 Q. Who signed such orders?

10 A. The commander of the joint command and the

11 chief of staff of the joint command. And if one of

12 them, if the commander of the joint command was absent,

13 it would be a person whom he would authorise from the

14 ranks of the Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Mr. Cerovac, how were appointments made in

16 this period?

17 A. All appointments were done separately because

18 there was a dual command at a time. That is,

19 appointments in the structures of the Territorial

20 Defence at all levels of the units whose commander was

21 the commander of the Territorial Defence and all

22 appointments in the joint command, that is, at a level

23 of the HVO's headquarters. That means both at the

24 level of units and headquarters was done by the

25 commander of the HVO units.

1 Q. Very well, Mr. Cerovac. I think you have

2 explained that.

3 A. And he himself was appointed by the

4 headquarters at Grude.

5 Q. Thank you. In your position of the

6 operations officer and assistant commander for

7 operations and training, were you in a position to work

8 on preparation of documents regarding, the combat

9 operations of the municipal staff and of the joint

10 command?

11 A. Yes. I was a member of the body, which was

12 preparing all significant documents so regarding

13 planning and carrying out of combat operations and

14 proposed to the commander -- which were proposed to the

15 commander and to the chief of staff of the joint

16 command.

17 Q. Mr. Cerovac, I am now going to show you

18 several documents, so please tell me whether you can

19 recognise these documents which were compiled at the

20 joint TO, HVO command?

21 These are documents which have previously

22 been offered through the expert report. I am just

23 going to show you for authentication, I have enough

24 copies for the trial chamber and the Prosecutor. Let

25 me give you the numbers. These are the following

1 documents: D-145 Annex 5D/11. D-145 D/21. D-145 Annex

2 5D/15. D-145 Annex 5D/17. And D-144 Annex 5B. Could

3 all of these documents be given to the witness together

4 so that he could answer the question.

5 Mr. Cerovac, will you please review these

6 documents? Mr. Cerovac, is it correct that all these

7 documents were signed both by the commander of the

8 joint command, who was the commander of the TO, and the

9 chief of staff of the joint command, who was also the

10 commander of the HVO?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Working in the joint command, as somebody who

13 worked there, could you confirm for the Trial Chamber

14 that these documents were, indeed, documents which were

15 compiled in the joint command headquarters?

16 A. Yes, absolutely.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, these are

18 documents which support the expert report and the

19 witness has recognised them as those that were compiled

20 at the joint command, so I offer them into evidence.

21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, with respect to

22 at least two of them, I notice that the documents were

23 incomplete and appear to have been altered or

24 redacted. Given that they are not the actual documents

25 and have been altered, we certainly would object to

1 their admission for any purposes. If Ms. Residovic is

2 able to supply us with unaltered versions, then we may

3 withdraw our objection.

4 JUDGE JAN: Is it really important, giving

5 instances of orders being signed by commanders of both

6 forces? Do they have any real bearing on the case?

7 MS. McHENRY: If Your Honours were not to let

8 them into evidence at all because they were irrelevant,

9 then certainly then, we wouldn't object. But if they

10 are going to be admitted at all, because they are

11 relevant, we certainly think, for one, we may want to

12 do our own looking into whether these are authentic

13 documents and their relevance. We certainly would be

14 unable to do that if the documents have been altered.

15 JUDGE JAN: It is an admitted position that

16 some of these documents have been signed by both. Even

17 some of the documents, produced by the prosecution

18 itself shows, that some of the orders have been signed

19 by the commanders of the HVO as a letter to you. Why

20 do you bring them to the court unnecessarily? They

21 don't have any bearing on the guilt or innocence of

22 your client.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What do you want to

24 establish by them being admitted? The documents could

25 be signed by both commanders as joint commanders.

1 That's all you're trying to show.

2 JUDGE JAN: You have already said, your

3 witness, that Mr. Delalic did not occupy any position

4 in the TO or the joint command or in the HVO. So that

5 should be the end of the matter.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: One of these documents, which

7 is document concerning the attack on Bradina, has

8 already been admitted, but what these documents show,

9 they show the method of commanding during the period

10 when Mr. Zejnil Delalic was not there. This witness

11 was preparing these documents for his commander,

12 Zerabic (phoen) and Boric. This all shows that

13 Mr. Delalic was not involved in either issuing orders

14 or appointing persons to duties. In that respect, I

15 find that this document is relevant and the witness is

16 someone who has actually prepared them.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not a member of the TO

18 at that time. He was never, and there were already

19 commanders in those places. He could not also be a

20 commander. So how can it be relevant when, in fact, he

21 played no part in any of these proceedings at that

22 time.

23 JUDGE JAN: According to this witness, when

24 the attack on Bradina took place, Delalic was in

25 Zagreb, this is what he said, he couldn't have possibly

1 taken part in this operation. That is what this

2 witness said yesterday. How are these documents

3 relevant? You're unnecessarily calling on something

4 which is not bearing on the --

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: They confirm the credibility,

6 both of this witness and other witnesses, because these

7 are not just words. There are documents to support

8 these words and this goes directly to what the

9 Prosecution has been arguing.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then they support

11 nothing. The moment that they disputed; they support

12 nothing. So when, in fact, the words which have not

13 been challenged, the evidence of the witness has not

14 been challenged and other witnesses have not been

15 challenged, why are you introducing a disputed

16 document?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, maybe we can

18 bring it up again in a status conference. What I'm

19 trying to do is really follow your instructions. There

20 was an expert witness who could not speak to the

21 documents. He had not compiled them. He could not

22 authenticate them and now we have a witness who

23 actually did compile these documents, so now I asked

24 him whether he can recognise these documents, whether

25 he can authenticate it. This is all I wanted of this

1 witness. If Your Honours see that it is sufficient

2 that is enough that these documents were compiled by

3 the joint command, I don't need to go any further.

4 This is how I see these documents. I think that it

5 helps determine the position of my clients, as well as

6 the situation as it was on the ground in Konjic at the

7 time.

8 Q. Mr. Cerovac, was Mr. Zejnil Delalic at any

9 period of time in 1992, in a position to sign as a

10 member of either the headquarters or the joint command,

11 any orders or appointments which were binding to you as

12 a soldier?

13 A. I personally as a soldier was bound by orders

14 coming from two distinct levels. It is the level of a

15 commander and the level of the superior command in

16 Sarajevo.

17 Q. Thank you. Can you?

18 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. Your client did

19 sign a few orders along with the commanders of the HVO

20 and the TO.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE JAN: Your client did sign some orders

24 along with the commander of the HVO and the TO and he

25 described himself as a commander, although he also said

1 -- the orders also said that he was signing as

2 coordinator. If there's any explanation which this

3 witness can offer, please ask him about it, otherwise,

4 this document is really not relevant, because if you

5 believe that he had nothing to do with the TO, he had

6 nothing to do with the HVO, then these orders become

7 irrelevant.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it is correct

9 that we have seen documents which my client has signed

10 as a coordinator, but my client never described himself

11 as a commander, and I don't think that we had any

12 documents showing that, but let me turn to the witness

13 now and try to clarify that with him right away.

14 Q. If there was a document which was signed by

15 the commander or the commander of the HVO additionally

16 and there was also a coordinator signing it, did that

17 mean that the coordinator was the one who was also

18 issuing you this command?

19 A. Absolutely not. The orders which were

20 binding for us, for me as a member of the Territorial

21 Defence, were only the orders which came from my own

22 commander or the commander of the joint command, as

23 well as orders which I received from the chief of staff

24 of the joint command. In certain cases, if such

25 documents existed, the coordinator was, his signature

1 figured on certain documents only as a witness to

2 certain events because frequently, certain orders were

3 not carried out, that is, certain actions that were set

4 out in certain documents were combined actions, which

5 means certain actions that involved civilian aspects

6 which were of special significance and actions where

7 the involvement of the military was necessary.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. Perhaps I will show

9 you some of the documents that would further clarify

10 this issue further on, where in some of the orders

11 signed by commanders, there is also a signature of the

12 coordinator.

13 Mr. Cerovac, during 1992 and before you

14 became the brigade commander, did you ever substitute

15 for the commander or did you act on his behalf?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. Can you tell me whether as an acting

18 commander, did you also carry out certain actions that

19 had to do with control and command, in other words, did

20 you issue orders?

21 A. Yes, that is correct. I always knew at the

22 morning briefing whether the commander was going to be

23 present or not, whether he was going to visit the

24 front-lines, and he would always issue me orders orally

25 so that I would actually sign all the documents that

1 were very urgent on his behalf.

2 Q. If the commander was absent due to being

3 wounded or something else, did you have authority, were

4 you given authority as a commander?

5 A. Yes, that is correct. The first such case

6 happened during the operation at Borci.

7 Q. Do you mean the first case of a longer period

8 of time, you mean?

9 A. Yes, that was during the operation at Borci.

10 Q. Regardless of whether you substituted for the

11 commander for a shorter or longer period of time, was

12 at any of these times, Mr. Delalic a person who could

13 issue commands or make appointments of any kind?

14 A. No, not in practise, not in theory.

15 Q. In order to authenticate the documents which

16 are in the expert report, Mr. Cerovac, I'm going to

17 show you certain documents which bear your signature

18 and I want to see whether you can identify these

19 documents. D145, A5. These are copies, if necessary,

20 to remind the Trial Chamber. D145, annex D5/40. D145,

21 AD/27; D145, AD/28; D145, A9/9.

22 JUDGE JAN: We are the only ones without

23 these documents.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

25 please.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: While the documents are being

2 distributed to the court, Mr. Cerovac, will you please

3 look at them? I have given a copy for their Honours,

4 but I'm not sure about the order in which they should

5 be distributed.

6 Q. Mr. Cerovac, will you please look at the

7 document of the 25th of July, 1992, order on the

8 appointment to the command of the Ljubinje detachment.

9 Mr. Cerovac, will you please tell me whether

10 you recognise the signature on this document?

11 A. Yes, this is my signature.

12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, is that one of the documents

13 which you signed by authority of the commander Esad

14 Ramic?

15 A. It is. You can see, in front, the name of

16 the position and, according to the instructions on

17 office work, it is obligatory to add the word for, for

18 the commander, which means that you have been

19 authorised by him to do that.

20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, will you please look

21 at another document with the same date, 25th July,

22 1992, order on appointment issued to the command of

23 Zupcanik detachment. Do you recognise the signature on

24 this document?

25 A. Yes, I do. This is an order that I

1 personally drew up and I put my function on it, my

2 title.

3 Q. Are we talking about document 01234/1 of the

4 25th of July, 1992?

5 A. Yes, it is an order on the use of units,

6 deployment of units.

7 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you just mentioned the order on

8 the deployment of units, the document headed the 23rd

9 of July, but my question referred to the document of

10 the 25th of July, 1992, order on appointment issued to

11 the command of Zupcanik detachment. I think there was

12 a small misunderstanding between us. Do you have the

13 document now?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you tell me whether you recognise the

16 signature on this document?

17 A. Yes, it is my signature.

18 Q. This is a document that you signed by

19 authority of the commander, as is the case for the

20 previous document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Will you now look at the document that you

23 referred to a moment ago dated the 23rd of July, order

24 on the deployment of units? Were these documents

25 drafted when your commander, due to injury, was absent?

1 A. Yes. From the middle of July and throughout

2 the second half of July.

3 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago that this

4 is an order on the deployment of a unit. Can you tell

5 me what it actually means, this order?

6 A. This order, I had come from the area of

7 Glavaticevo to Konjic because intelligence information

8 could not reach me through communications and this

9 information had to do with the forces of the aggressor.

10 Q. This may be very important for you,

11 explaining why you came there, but will you tell me why

12 this unit of 90 men were accommodated in the barracks

13 and with what purpose?

14 A. The unit was put up in the Celebici barracks,

15 so that it should be equipped with the necessary

16 material in one place, with sufficient quantities of

17 food supplies and rations and for its assignment to be

18 made clear.

19 Q. Does that mean -- actually, I want to ask you

20 whether in the area of the Celebici barracks, which is

21 a very large compound, were units of the Territorial

22 Defence put up there during preparations for combat?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Will you please now look at the

25 document of the 21st of September, 1992? Do you

1 recognise the signature on this document?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you tell us who signed the document?

4 A. I did personally.

5 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at the document

6 dated 3rd June, 1992. Tell me who signed, standing in

7 for the commander of the Territorial Defence?

8 A. I did as can clearly be seen by my legible

9 signature.

10 Q. Mr. Cerovac, as you see, this is one of the

11 documents on which the signature of Zejnil Delalic

12 figures. Tell me, does this signature mean that Zejnil

13 Delalic is issuing this order?

14 A. Certainly not.

15 Q. According to your understanding of things and

16 according to your experience and the rules, who issued

17 this order? Or to be more precise, who are the persons

18 who issued this order, as far as you are concerned?

19 A. I don't understand your question. Could you

20 repeat it, please?

21 Q. You said that Zejnil Delalic is not a person

22 issuing orders. For a soldier, who is the author of

23 this order?

24 A. Exclusively the commander.

25 Q. Can you tell me, using this as an example, as

1 you, yourself, signed this document, what was the task

2 of Zejnil Delalic, according to the provisions of this

3 order?

4 A. Zejnil Delalic, upon the proposal of the

5 economics staff, was tasked to coordinate activities

6 between the representative of the railway station in

7 Konjic, Mr. Vesiko Bunjic (phoen) and a representative

8 of the armed structures. His principal task was, to

9 set in motion the railway line between Jablanica and

10 Pazaric, which was of particular significance for three

11 municipalities.

12 Q. Thank you. No, please proceed. You were

13 going to add something?

14 A. And the task of the army was to provide

15 combat security of that train.

16 Q. Tell me, do you know personally whether

17 Zejnil Delalic accomplished the task assigned to him by

18 this order?

19 A. Yes, that is common knowledge. That was the

20 first train that started operating in the state of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of the army.

22 Q. So, in fact, I want to know whether this was

23 a task given to Zejnil Delalic or was it something

24 else?

25 A. Yes, absolutely, that was a task given to

1 Zejnil Delalic.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, as this witness

4 has identified his signatures on all these documents,

5 and as I consider them to be relevant, I tender them

6 into evidence as Defence exhibits. Thank you very

7 much. May I just check with the registry? These

8 documents have been entered into the record and the

9 number under which they were identified; isn't that

10 so?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, they have been admitted

12 under the number they have been marked.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, I should now like to move on to

15 another area having to do with some of the positions in

16 the staff. Will you tell us what was the function of

17 the headquarters of the Stan (phoen) in the joint

18 command, the Stan being the joint headquarters?

19 A. In the joint command, we had security,

20 security for the command itself, distribution of mail,

21 food for members of the command and protection of the

22 most important facilities.

23 Q. Will you please tell me which of the military

24 structures in the joint command did this Stan command

25 belong to?

1 A. It belonged to the HVO because the

2 Territorial Defence staff at that time, while the joint

3 command existed, did not have its own military police

4 formed, and if it had had it, then probably those

5 duties would have been carried out jointly.

6 Q. Will you tell me, Mr. Cerovac, after the end

7 of this period of May/June, in the development of the

8 Territorial Defence, did the post of coordinator exist,

9 as a stage in the development of the Territorial

10 Defence?

11 A. In the work of the Territorial Defence, and

12 even to this day, since the formation of the army of

13 the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is no such

14 word as a "Stage" or "Phase" nor is there the position

15 of coordinator.

16 Q. So as not to waste too much time over this,

17 was there a coordinator phase in Konjic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, were certain combat operations

20 prepared and carried out within your headquarters?

21 A. In the second half of June, we were given

22 orders from our superior command to engage in active

23 combat in the direction of Nevesinje, the aim being to

24 ease the pressure on our forces, which were defending

25 the town of Sarajevo.

1 Q. In view of the fact that we have discussed

2 this at some length, will you tell me whether all the

3 structures of the joint command participated in these

4 preparations, I mean the TO and the HVO, in the

5 preparations?

6 A. The situation was rather special when it

7 comes to the preparation of those combat operations and

8 at the beginning, the members of the Croatian defence

9 council, the HVO, who belonged to the joint command,

10 expressed their readiness to take an active part in

11 these combat operations, saying that they would support

12 us because we lacked logistic support at the time.

13 When I say we, I'm referring to the Territorial Defence

14 units, that they would reinforce us, but an unforeseen

15 development occurred at the very beginning of these

16 operations. They explained to us that it was not in

17 their national interest to engage in combat in other

18 parts of the municipality and that is the capture of

19 the plateau of Nevesinje.

20 Q. Despite that, did the municipal TO staff

21 decide to carry out this combat operation?

22 A. Yes, of course, because we were not guided by

23 national interests. What we sought to achieve was to

24 liberate the entire territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. As I would now go on to another area, perhaps

1 this would be a convenient time for the break, Your

2 Honour.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is the last in this

4 area, but I intend to move on to another area, so

5 perhaps I'm asking whether this would be a convenient

6 time for the break.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If that is your last

8 question, we can break at this stage and come back at

9 12 noon.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.29 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.07 p.m.

12 (The witness entered court)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I hope you are getting

14 to the next stage of your cross-examination.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, as I said, I will go on

16 now to another subject. That is, I will no longer be

17 discussing the control and command question that we

18 have covered, prior to the break.

19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, the Court already knows that the

20 Town of Konjic was heavily shelled as of the 4th of

21 May. And it is also aware of the events linked to the

22 combat operations and lifting the blockade on the

23 city. After the deblocking of Bradina, did

24 the shelling of Konjic cease?

25 A. No. The shelling of the Town of Konjic

1 stopped when the date in accords was signed.

2 Q. All of you in the municipal staff and the

3 joint command who performed certain duties, did you do

4 so under conditions of intensive combat operations in

5 the town of Konjic, that is during the period of daily

6 shelling of the town?

7 A. Certainly. The situation in the Town of

8 Konjic was terrible. The town was a very easy target

9 for both selective and non-selective shelling and the

10 grenades would destroy particular buildings and would

11 inflict casualties.

12 Q. I shall now ask the technical service to show

13 a segment of the tape used during the testimony of the

14 expert witness and we can ask the witness whether he

15 recognises the conditions in the Town of Konjic. So

16 will you please show us Tape No. 2, Segment 1?

17 JUDGE JAN: Shelling every day, at least in

18 1992, why do you want to have a picture? That has been

19 a position that has been adopted and admitted, so why

20 further evidence on that?

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I mean if you see the

22 picture of shelling, it will make much of a difference

23 will it?

24 JUDGE JAN: We can well imagine what shelling

25 will do.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, that is fine

2 with me. If we don't have to show the picture to the

3 witness. But I would you like to admit these tapes

4 into evidence, because on the tapes, you can see what

5 happened and I consider that to be important for your

6 decision. The tape is just support material. The

7 expert witness could not authenticate it. We have the

8 witness here and he can authenticate the tape and it

9 can serve as a basis for establishing the conditions,

10 which are referred to in the indictment. That is the

11 only reason why we wish to show segments of the tape to

12 this witness, so that I should be able to tender it

13 into evidence.

14 Because we have admitted many tapes tendered

15 by the prosecution, so this is a basis for you to have

16 a general idea of the conditions under which all this

17 was happening. That is the only reason I wish to show

18 it to the witness. It will take a minute or two and if

19 he can authenticate it, then I'll be able to tender it

20 into evidence. Because the conditions determine what

21 each individual was able to do or not.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This, but I think you

23 will try and restrict yourself to the parameters in

24 which you have called a witness to testify. If you

25 looked at the -- in the motion in which you refer to us

1 what he came to is to give a rule of the coordinator

2 and the Tactical Group 1 of the coordinator and the

3 head of the Tactical Group 1 in respect to the, to the

4 activities, this is what he's here to. What I think

5 you are diverting to other areas, which not necessarily

6 affects those things. And I think this is what in

7 enlarging the evidence. There's no point in moving

8 from the area in which actually you called a witness to

9 testify, into areas which perhaps I really want to hear

10 actual testimony.

11 JUDGE JAN: How relevant is this command

12 responsibility? What does that mean? You're in charge

13 it's my responsibility, yes commander. You have

14 examined this witness on that aspect. --

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am expecting

16 the hearing you have announced, but I asked you with

17 precision how we could give you a summary of what the

18 witnesses would be testifying to. And I asked you

19 whether this should be done in an identical way, as the

20 prosecution has done, and you confirmed that and gave

21 me guidelines and that is what I followed. As for the

22 coordinator or, possibly commander, in view of your

23 legal expertise, as well as mine, you know that is very

24 important to establish the facts in order to be able to

25 judge anybody's responsibility, so that is just -- I

1 would like to be able to show it very briefly.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you are giving

3 anybody the role and responsibility of air commander,

4 you do not necessarily go into what gives rise to that

5 role and responsibility. Here is a chief of staff.

6 He's within the authorities and knows exactly what

7 rules are granted to the coordinator or the commander

8 of the tactical group. He would know. And these are

9 the things that anybody expects you to lead evidence

10 to. Not whether a place was shelled, or not whether a

11 place was captured. It has nothing to do with his

12 role. When the person who played that role comes up,

13 he will then tell us what actually he did. But the

14 technical guidelines which outline his role, what are

15 applicable, who are in charge of those roles, I

16 couldn't tell us.

17 Because all these are completely irrelevant

18 to what perhaps ending. You would as well tell us

19 people who played football on that day or any other

20 activity or any other activity that might have

21 happened. These are all activities which are concerned

22 with normal operations of the war period. We expect

23 there will be shelling and so do it. And in an

24 incessant manner with no appointed commander of a

25 tactical group. He has to defend the area for which he

1 was assigned. This witness will be able to tell us

2 that. And this is not all the type of manoeuvring

3 you're telling us.

4 JUDGE JAN: Even you assume that Konjic was

5 entirely destroyed or it remained unscathed, who would

6 it affect, his command responsibility? Let's confine

7 ourselves to the case instead of moving into other

8 fields and other areas and, which has no bearing at all

9 on the guilt or innocence of your client.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: First of all, you know that

11 my client, according to us, had no position that any

12 one living in that town was conditioned by the

13 situation in the town. If they spend 24 hours

14 collecting dead bodies or repairing roofs, that is

15 important, regardless of who we are talking about,

16 whether it is this witness or somebody else.

17 JUDGE JAN: Let us confine yourselves to the

18 Defence, instead of other fields that have no bearing

19 at all on the question before us.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but counts

21 46 and 47 speak about inhumane conditions and other

22 things. The witness, Kevric, has told you about that.

23 You have to know whether the conditions were identical.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If he's not giving

25 evidence of human conditions, go ahead ask him or if

1 you have other witness who can do so, ask them.

2 JUDGE JAN: Inhuman conditions. In the camp,

3 not outside in Konjic.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He has no responsibility

5 for the areas except in the camp, if at all, especially

6 in the way he was charged. His responsibility is

7 limited to what happened in the camp, not outside.

8 JUDGE JAN: In fact you already led evidence

9 showing there were food shortages and no medical

10 supplies were available.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Microphone, Your Honour,

12 please.

13 JUDGE JAN: The witness doesn't speak about

14 the shortage of food, maybe there's some lines, people

15 collecting food. But we're talking about what happened

16 inside the camp. Even if Konjic, as I said, was

17 completely destroyed or it remained unscathed, how

18 would it affect the command responsibility of your

19 client? That's all I am saying, confine the evidence

20 to your defence.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Assuming he has

22 responsibility all over the place. Even that was the

23 case, was he so charged?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: There's no evidence at all

25 that my client was responsible. We're trying to

1 explain to you what his activates were and that is why

2 the breadth of the defence is such as it is. I believe

3 that all this is useful for establishing the facts of

4 the case. There's no camp outside of the context, but

5 I would appeal for a status conference as you have

6 suggested.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just the facts of the

8 case. It's none of your business.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, it's very

10 difficult for me to begin, but if, in the introduction,

11 the prosecution says that the forces attacked a certain

12 village and horrors were happening and you're not aware

13 of them, unless you let me show you, but I will

14 continue with the examination of this witness.

15 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: It's not for your case.

16 Your point is to defend your client. It's for the

17 Prosecutor to prove the facts of the indictment or not

18 to prove them, not for you. That's what my colleagues

19 are trying to say.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but how can I call in

21 question, the facts presented to the court, and which

22 have been admitted into evidence if I don't give you

23 any counter evidence. How will you be able to view it

24 differently because you have already admitted into

25 evidence, material that are not -- that is not truthful

1 in the position of the Defence. And for the Defence to

2 be able to dispute the evidence tendered by the

3 prosecution, we have to offer other evidence. That

4 evidence has been admitted and I have to cast doubt

5 regarding that evidence. May I ask, rapidly, to be

6 shown the tape with the situation in June and if the

7 court considers it to be irrelevant, the court can

8 reject it. And that is why I am asking the technical

9 booth to show us this.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it's

11 necessary to show it. Move on with another aspect of

12 your evidence.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC:

14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that the HVO, a day

15 before the body operation, declined to participate.

16 Tell us please who issued the order for the beginning

17 of the operation Oganj or Borci?

18 A. It was issued and signed by Mr. Esad Ramic.

19 Q. Who was the commander of that operation?

20 A. Mr. Esad Ramic.

21 JUDGE JAN: We also have evidence on that.

22 Esad Ramic (indiscernible). The next man then took

23 over, it was the previous witness before us, on the

24 this Borci operation.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember that.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, we remember. This man

2 was for a time the commander of the operation and that

3 is the difference and secondly, I am not accustomed to

4 having a discussion with the Trial Chamber, I have too

5 much respect to be able to enter into any discussion.

6 JUDGE JAN: We merely point out what has

7 already come on the record. I am not discussing it

8 with you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the evidence we

10 have.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, did you take over command of the

13 Borci operation at a certain point?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Which were the reasons for you to take over

16 command of that operation; the wounding of commander

17 Ramic, in the area of Tisovica (phoen). This is a

18 mountain chain, part of the Prenj Mountains. This

19 occurred in the first half of July or the middle of

20 July, to be more precise.

21 Q. Thank you. Tell me please did Mr. Zejnil

22 Delalic participate in operation Oganj?

23 A. Yes. He had the role of rank and file

24 soldier. And he was in the area of Mount Zvekusa or

25 more precisely, Vranske Stijene.

1 Q. Who worked on the preparatory documents for

2 this operation?

3 A. The operations and training department, to

4 which I belonged.

5 Q. For the needs of this operation, did you form

6 some smaller tactical groups?

7 A. Yes. To facilitate control and command, to

8 facilitate the communications system.

9 Q. Tell me, those tactical groups that are

10 mentioned in your order, do they have anything to do

11 with the Tactical Group based in Pazaric?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, how long did

14 this operation last, Operation Oganj?

15 A. It lasted just over one month until the

16 beginning of August, but certain smaller formations

17 with specific assignments remained in the area.

18 Q. Mr. Cerovac, during that operation, did

19 Zejnil Delalic receive any kind of command military

20 function during that operation?

21 A. No. He could not have been given any such

22 assignments, because he was not within the structure of

23 the control and command system.

24 Q. Which were his duties and responsibilities

25 and can you tell us exactly where he was?

1 A. I said that he had a purely military task,

2 the task of a soldier, a very specific task of

3 providing logistic support from the area of Vranske

4 Stijene or, to be more precise, the village of Dubociri

5 (phoen). Logistic supplies could reach this village by

6 motor car, and his further task was to organise the

7 speedy loading and unloading of the supplies.

8 Q. Thank you. I think that the court is

9 familiar with logistic activities. Go on, please.

10 A. And the transport which went on from there

11 with the help of horses, on horseback, he had to

12 transport these supplies from the Rakatica Canyon

13 (phoen).

14 Q. I think these details now we don't need to go

15 into. Thank you, Mr. Cerovac. You have told me it is

16 not a command function, but tell me, in the view of the

17 position he had, could he have command over the

18 artillery?

19 A. No, he could not command the artillery. He

20 could convey my demands, my own personal demands. This

21 could be done by him or anyone else with the exact

22 coordinates.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. Because I didn't have good links with the

25 artillery positions on Mount Zvekusa.

1 Q. Thank you. Linked to this operation, will

2 you tell me geographically what this area is like,

3 Vranske Stijene, Prajn, in the direction of Lake

4 Borci. In terms of geography, is it mountainous area,

5 inaccessible? Can you just describe it in a couple of

6 sentences for the benefit of the judges?

7 A. To explain it more graphically, we headed out

8 from the town of Konjic, which has an altitude of about

9 267 metres, to the mountainous areas of Prenj where the

10 average altitude is about 1,500 metres, and also

11 towards Glavaticevo, where the highest point was about

12 1,200 metres.

13 Q. Because of these problems and communication

14 problems, before the actual operation, did you

15 establish certain relay stations for communications

16 with the town?

17 A. Yes, indeed, we had to do that.

18 Q. Thank you. We have already heard testimony

19 about this. I just wanted you to confirm this fact

20 before the court.

21 We shall now go on to the next area.

22 Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

23 at a certain point in time appointed to a command post?

24 A. Could you kindly repeat the question because

25 I cannot hear the translation properly.

1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know that Mr. Delalic at

2 one point in time in 1992 became commander?

3 A. Yes. This was towards the end of the month

4 of July, perhaps seven days before this operation had

5 ended, he was appointed commander of TG-1. The duty

6 was performed earlier on by Mr. Mustafa Polutak who had

7 a car accident prior to that.

8 Q. Did you ever personally meet Mr. Polutak?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I met him in Konjic. We met in

10 the motel which is located in the city.

11 Q. Was Mr. Polutak a superior to the municipal

12 staff of Konjic at the time you met him or at any other

13 point in time?

14 A. No. He couldn't be in a superior position to

15 the municipal staff. These tactical groups are

16 divided, actually in military warfare adopted by the

17 western bloc --

18 Q. Well, we have heard the experts on this

19 topic, so I would like to ask you as a witness of these

20 events: Did Mr. Polutak, when you met him or during

21 the time while he was commander, at any point in time,

22 whether he was personally superior to him or to the

23 municipal staff?

24 A. No, he wasn't, so he couldn't be my superior

25 either.

1 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that at the end of

2 July, Mr. Delalic had become the commander of Tactical

3 Group 1. Can you tell me whether Mr. Delalic, as

4 commander of TG-1 at any point in time while he was

5 discharging that duty, was he your superior or to the

6 municipal staff of Konjic?

7 JUDGE JAN: He said no. He has already said

8 that. He has already said no, he was not a superior.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Polutak was not.

10 JUDGE JAN: He said that.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said about Mr. Polutak.

12 I'm talking about Mr. Delalic now.

13 JUDGE JAN: In that regard, I have another

14 question, but you finish first.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC:

16 Q. Please answer the question: When he became

17 commander of TG-1 in July, was Mr. Delalic, at any

18 moment while he was discharging that duty, whether he

19 was your superior or the superior of the municipal

20 staff?

21 A. No, he wasn't our superior, nor was

22 Mr. Polutak either, so he couldn't have been my

23 superior or the superior of the municipal staff.

24 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, before you proceed

25 further, I have a question to ask of the witness. Can

1 you give this copy to him? This is document 99/7/7,

2 whereby he was appointed commander of all formations.

3 What does this really mean? What does this

4 order convey?

5 A. This order, it has not been worded very

6 accurately when the order "all armed formations"

7 doesn't exist and the commander of all armed formations

8 does not exist in our organisational system. This is

9 not valid, either formally or legally.

10 JUDGE JAN: But it is an order issued by the

11 supreme command. The supreme command must be knowing

12 what it is ordering. Did he become superior to the

13 TO? Did he become superior to the combat units of the

14 MUP? Did he become superior to the combat units of

15 HVO? Did he become superior to the combat units of

16 TO? That's what I want to find out.

17 A. The supreme command, Your Honour, yes, as an

18 institution, but the one who wrote this, who issued

19 this order, the name and surname, initials, you can

20 see, there is a person who writes out the order. The

21 person who prints the order, he doesn't necessarily

22 interpret the order of the supreme command, so he can

23 but he --

24 MS. RESIDOVIC:

25 Q. After that order, were all armed formations

1 subordinated to Mr. Delalic?

2 A. Certainly, no.

3 Q. Can you give me an example? Did Mr. Delalic

4 ask anything from you when he became commander of the

5 tactical group, any material or technical means?

6 A. Well, this was one of the first

7 misunderstandings we had. I'm saying this with

8 reservation. That is a misunderstanding with

9 Mr. Delalic.

10 JUDGE JAN: It has to be obeyed. If there

11 was any confusion, did you ask for clarification from

12 the chief commander, from the supreme commander, what

13 this order really signified?

14 You haven't followed what I said. This is an

15 order of the supreme commander, General Delalic. It

16 had to be obeyed. If you thought there was some

17 confusion because the order had been inaccurately

18 worded, did you ask for any clarification from the

19 supreme commander what he meant by "all formations"?

20 A. I believe that the municipal staff had

21 received more specific appointments by Mr. Delalic from

22 Sarajevo, I think so. I cannot remember the date when

23 he received this, but I think we got clarification, we

24 in the municipal staff, as to these questions of all

25 formations. I think that the problem had been settled,

1 but I can't really remember.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I would not like

3 to interfere.

4 JUDGE JAN: Why don't you ask what was meant

5 by "all formations"? You see, as I said, there were

6 three forces, the main forces. I'm leaving out HOS, et

7 cetera. There was the TO; it had certain combat

8 units. You had the HVO; it had certain combat units.

9 You had MUP; it had their own combat units.

10 When the supreme commander says "all

11 formations," what was that really meant to be? Was the

12 TO staff entirely placed under the command of General

13 Delalic or not? He said there was some confusion, the

14 order was not clear. Then the TO must have sought

15 clarification from the supreme commander that we don't

16 understand the import of this order. Please tell us

17 what is really intended to be conveyed.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this question

19 was already asked to General Divjak.

20 JUDGE JAN: And General Divjak gave the same

21 reply and said it was inaccurate. But it is an order

22 of the supreme commander, it has to be obeyed, and if

23 it can't be obeyed in its present form, then some

24 clarification must have been sought from someone, at

25 least from the supreme commander, "We don't understand

1 this order. Please tell us what you really mean."

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. And this witness has

3 just told you, as well as the previous one, when there

4 was this disagreement over the gun, Sultan. I'm just

5 trying to explain that after their request on the 8th

6 of August, the supreme command again issued an order,

7 to which it says, clearly, that he was just the

8 commander of Tactical Group 1. You have that other

9 document in the evidence.

10 I don't know exactly what happened from one

11 day to the next, but what the witness has just said is

12 clear. They noticed the confusion. Then a new order

13 came dated the 8th of August from which it can clearly

14 be seen that Zejnil Delalic was just commander of

15 Tactical Group 1.

16 I have tried to find it, but as this matter

17 arose suddenly, I can't remember exactly who

18 witnessed. I think it was a question addressed to the

19 expert witness Vejzagic. If I've managed to be of

20 assistance, I'm very glad.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for

22 that. Yes, please continue.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC:

24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, in addition to

25 this unit Gajret, which was subordinated to Commander

1 Polutak, did any units from Konjic during the Operation

2 JUG come under the command of other tactical groups

3 within the framework of the operation to lift the

4 blockade of Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes. One such unit was subordinated to

6 Tactical Group 2, the command of which was on Mount

7 Igman. I personally took such a unit there upon orders

8 received from the supreme command, and I led the unit

9 to Mount Igman following orders, to be more precise, to

10 the municipality of Trnovo.

11 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you have already testified

12 before this Trial Chamber that the order for the

13 formation of the Gajret unit, which was subordinated to

14 Tactical Group 1 was issued by your commander Esad

15 Ramic.

16 Tell me, please, when you received a request

17 from the supreme command to transfer a part of your

18 forces under the command of the Tactical Group, who

19 would issue the order on sending units or parts of

20 units from Konjic to the areas under the control of the

21 Tactical Group?

22 A. The decision was taken by me and Commander

23 Ramic.

24 Q. In view of the fact that we have heard that

25 your front-lines were about 70 to 100 kilometres long

1 and that, as testified by you and previous witnesses, a

2 part of the forces were sent and subordinated to

3 tactical groups, who was in charge of the remaining

4 units in Konjic?

5 A. The staff, the commander of the municipal

6 staff. There was no interruption in the functioning of

7 the system of control and command in the municipal

8 staff, regardless of the fact that a unit was placed

9 under the command of the Tactical Group. There was

10 continuity all the time.

11 Q. But units which, under order of the

12 commander, were sent to the area of Tactical Group 1 or

13 Tactical Group 2, who were they subordinated to?

14 A. To the commanders of Tactical Group 1 and

15 Tactical Group 2. In this case, to the commander of

16 Tactical Group 1 and, in the second case, to commander

17 of Tactical Group 2, Mr. Nijetovic (phoen).

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, tell me, please, as

19 you have explained that you participated in the

20 take-over of the Celebici barracks, do you know, as a

21 member of the staff and as the chief of staff, what

22 facilities existed within these barracks? What were

23 the main purposes for which it served?

24 A. I knew from the very second half of the 80's

25 what the purpose of these barracks was. It is a

1 typical facility of the former Yugoslav People's Army.

2 The purpose of it was to store military reserves. The

3 focus in this case was on storage of fuel, because

4 there were large containers and some material which

5 were concealed in the tunnel. Obviously, this facility

6 was not being used for its proper function.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after combat

8 operations in Donje Selo and Bradina, a certain number

9 of persons were brought to this facility, persons who

10 had participated in those operations or who had been

11 carrying arms?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you tell us how that prison in Celebici

14 came into being? Are you familiar with that?

15 A. The only prison that existed within Konjic

16 municipality was a prison housed in the basement.

17 There were two rooms within the basement of the MUP

18 building. There were some detentions, people held

19 there, after the deblocking, but there wasn't enough

20 room, so a technical decision was taken, a decision out

21 of necessity. When I say "necessity," I mean that the

22 building of the ministry of the interior, the MUP, and

23 the building of the TO staff headquarters, were right

24 next to one another, and that is where I regularly went

25 to work before the war. They were the first two

1 facilities to be directly hit by 115 millimetre

2 shells.

3 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. You said that the

4 decision was taken. Who took that decision?

5 A. The institution that was responsible for that

6 decision, the ministry, the MUP, it was in its

7 building, in its premises.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC:

9 Q. In the town of Konjic, except for classrooms,

10 was there any other facilities where a large number of

11 people could be placed?

12 A. No, no, there were none. In the town itself,

13 we had this big problem already at the end of April.

14 The first refugees reached our city, non-Serb

15 population expelled from the village of Bijela,

16 Jocinica, Gajic, Gacici (phoen). Most of these cities

17 were torched, Glavaticevo and others. These were local

18 refugees, if I can put it this way, and they were put

19 up with friends in collective centres, and then we had

20 an even bigger problem, a very large wave of non-Serb

21 of refugees expelled by Serb forces from eastern

22 Herzegovina or the area of the municipality of

23 Nevesinje, for we border with that municipality of

24 Nevesinje, and I personally welcomed them. These were

25 refugees from Gacko.

1 Q. Very well, Mr. Cerovac. I think that is

2 sufficient. The Trial Chamber is familiar with these

3 facts. These tens of thousands of people coming, where

4 did you accommodate them?

5 A. Let me tell you regarding a couple of large

6 groups that I'm familiar with. One group was put up in

7 a kindergarten, Zuleha Begeta; another group in the

8 basement of the machine factory in Konjic; a third

9 group of refugees in the Boy Scouts building; a fourth

10 group in the premises close to the town of Konjic in

11 the village of Podorasac; in the premises of the

12 company of Bojica and also in schools. Many refugees

13 were put up in schools.

14 Q. Thank you. I think it is clear from your

15 testimony that the town of Konjic had no facilities for

16 the accommodation of large groups of people.

17 My next question is, Mr. Cerovac, do you

18 personally know who brought people to the Celebici

19 barracks after they were detained, taken into custody?

20 A. As in my previous testimony, I said that

21 police forces participated in these operations in Donje

22 Selo, in particular, and also in the region of

23 Bradina. In deblocking the road, police forces from

24 the municipality of Hadzici participated, the MUP of

25 Hadzici. The people were taken into custody by police

1 forces and by TO units in the month of May when these

2 operations took place. There was no established

3 military police whose task this would have been.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Cerovac, do you have any

5 knowledge as to which forces secured the Celebici

6 barracks where the prison was?

7 A. Yes. There was a MUP unit. It was called

8 the "Special MUP Unit," and there were members of the

9 HVO and their military police, and later on, the TO as

10 well late in 1992.

11 Q. As a member of the joint command, did you

12 have any knowledge about the formation of a commission

13 which was to interrogate these persons and establish

14 their responsibility?

15 A. Yes. I was just informed about it because my

16 work was specific and I spent a lot of time in the

17 field.

18 Q. Do you know who was the president of that

19 commission?

20 A. Yes. The president of the military

21 investigating commission was Mr. Goran Lokas, who was a

22 jurist by training.

23 Q. Do you know who were the members of that

24 commission?

25 A. Mostly.

1 Q. You don't have to know all the names.

2 A. I shall do my best to tell you all the

3 names. I will probably remember. In terms of

4 structure, I know that the majority of members of the

5 commission represented the MUP. MUP representatives

6 were the most numerous because they are familiar with

7 the interrogations procedure, so that they were the

8 most numerous in that commission.

9 Q. Tell me, did the TO staff appoint one or

10 several members of that commission? Are you familiar

11 with that?

12 A. I think they appointed Mr. Sacir Pajic at the

13 beginning of July, I think, in the first half of July,

14 we withdrew him for the purpose of forming and

15 organising military police detachment.

16 Q. Who appointed him to that commission?

17 A. Generally speaking, it was the joint

18 command. Generally speaking, all of them, including

19 Goran Lokas and Mr. Pajic were appointed by the joint

20 command.

21 Q. What about the members coming from MUP? Who

22 appointed them?

23 A. Only their superior, that is, the chief of

24 the police station, chief of the MUP station.

25 Q. In view of your personal knowledge, could you

1 say whether Zejnil Delalic was authorised and whether,

2 as far as you know, did he ever appoint any single

3 member of this commission?

4 A. No. What I do know, that is, the time

5 Mr. Delalic -- while Mr. Delalic was working and living

6 there during 1992, no.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, would this be a

8 convenient time for the break so that I can continue

9 after the lunch break with this witness? Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will assemble at

11 2.30.

12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the

4 witness he is still under oath.

5 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

6 are still under oath.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Carry on.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Cerovac, have you had time to rest a

10 little? I appreciate the fact that during the war you

11 were wounded and that you are ill and I shall try

12 during the afternoon to be as specific as possible, so

13 that we could make the examination easier. Before the

14 break, we talked about a document which was submitted

15 to you for review, 27th of July, 1992, was the date.

16 To clarify certain facts, I would like to ask you, Mr.

17 Cerovac, according to the regulations and the armed

18 forces, who composed the armed forces of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina? According to this regulation the

20 formation of Bosnia and Herzegovina were the TO, the

21 HVO and the MUP and the forces of the interior.

22 Regardless of the orders you have seen, on the basis of

23 your own experience in the municipal staff of Konjic,

24 did Mr. Delalic as commander of TG-1 have ever become a

25 superior authority over the TO and the HVO and the MUP

1 in Konjic?

2 A. No, never, neither in theory, nor in

3 practice.

4 Q. You said that you followed a group of members

5 of the TO during the JUG operation. Mr. Cerovac, is it

6 true that part of the forces, and from Konjic, was

7 subordinated to Tactical Group 2?

8 A. Yes, yes. I led such a group, personally.

9 It was about 150 soldiers so that parts of the forces

10 of Konjic were subordinated for certain Tactical Group

11 2.

12 Q. I have some evidence and I would like to show

13 the witness document T 146/1. I would like this

14 document to be placed on the ELMO, so that the judges

15 can see it. Can the document be seen? Have you seen

16 the document earlier on, Mr. Cerovac? Have another

17 look. Put -- please put the English version on the

18 ELMO. The English version, thank you. And you look

19 through the Bosnian version, please. Mr. Cerovac, is

20 this document signed by the President Izetbegovic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. On this document, has it been clearly

23 indicated that Mr. Delalic was commander of TG-1 in the

24 upper part of this order, in the preamble, you can see

25 the official gazette on the basis of which orders are

1 issued. Is it indisputable that Mr. Delalic was

2 commander of TG-1? Can you see this from the order?

3 A. There's nothing questionable here, it was

4 clearly indicated that Mr. Delalic was commander of

5 TG-1.

6 Q. Has it ever been disputable? Has been this

7 appointment been ever a question of dispute for you?

8 And after his appointment, did you know that Mr.

9 Delalic was only commander of TG-1 and that he had no

10 other responsibilities or authority? Was that clear to

11 you?

12 A. Yes, thank you.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there may be an issue

14 of interpretation. On page 59, line 14, the answer to

15 the question on the LiveNote is "No." I believe the

16 witness said "Yes." Could that be verified, please?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC:

18 Q. You confirmed that President Izetbegovic

19 signed it, so the mistake was in the transcript, it

20 relates to the appointment. It was nothing, it was

21 only a mistake in the transcript. The appointment was,

22 in fact, signed by President Izetbegovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. There was a mistake in the transcript. Mr.

25 Cerovac, were you personally ever been a member of the

1 Tactical Group 1 command? Were you, Mr. Cerovac, at

2 any point in time in 1992, were you a soldier of TG-1

3 that is subordinate to Mr. Delalic?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, were the guards of the prison,

6 were they soldiers or subordinates to the commander of

7 TG-1?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, we are discussing the issue of the

10 tactical group. Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether the

11 guards or the personnel of the Celebici camp

12 subordinated to the coordinator?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Before the break, you said that

15 Goran Lokas was president of the military investigation

16 committee. Tell me, do you know that at the beginning

17 of June, Mr. Lokas had a traffic accident?

18 A. He went to the Republic of Croatia and since

19 he was absent for some time, we were informed, Mr.

20 Dinko Zebic told me, personally, that he had had a car

21 accident. I don't know about the details, I was not

22 told about the details.

23 Q. Given the fact that the position of the

24 deputy for security in the joint command belonged to

25 the HVO, do you know if someone had been appointed to

1 the post, earlier occupied by Mr. Lokas.

2 A. I saw Mr. Jerko Kostic in the premises of the

3 joint command. Actually in the offices where Mr. Lokas

4 used to work, it was a person whom I had known before

5 the aggression and who worked in the security service

6 of the former Yugoslavia.

7 Q. When we talked about the commission, although

8 you had mentioned that it was not part of your job, but

9 as a member of the joint command, did you know what the

10 task of the commission was?

11 A. I would like to say the following in response

12 to your question. In my training, I have never been in

13 a position to work on matters of military investigation

14 and I am familiar with those techniques and you can

15 draw the conclusion that I am not familiar with the

16 techniques of interrogation, examination and so forth.

17 In the joint command, that is what I know, we wrote out

18 some orders which referred to the work, which related

19 to the work of the commission, which dealt with

20 correctness of the procedure itself, not to use

21 coercive measures and so on. And we had drawn up such

22 documents.

23 Q. Now you said that you had done this with

24 regard to the work of the commission, in the joint

25 command in the TO staff. Did one pay heed to legal

1 procedures and to the respect of human rights of

2 civilians in particular?

3 A. Yes, we paid heed to that, especially some

4 orders, which we had issued related to the protection

5 of the civilian population, especially population of

6 the Serb nationality, who lived on the territory of the

7 Konjic municipality. In fact, with regard to their

8 personal protection with regard to not appropriating

9 their property, their cattle and not mistreating them

10 and so on. And even in these orders, we had organised

11 certain points. Actually, we had written out certain

12 points, relating to tasks of protection of the Serb

13 population, and we appointed responsible persons to

14 take care of that. I think that I have mentioned this.

15 Q. I would like to show you three documents and

16 I would like to ask you whether you are familiar with

17 these documents and if you had perhaps drawn them up

18 yourself, can you tell the judges that? Please show

19 the witness document 245 A5, D-20. Exhibit 145.

20 JUDGE JAN: How are these documents relevant

21 to command responsibility? The staff, the TO is not

22 before us. I have seen some documents issued, even the

23 declaration of war, issued by the Government of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, contains a specific paragraph in

25 that regard, how does that effect us in solving the

1 question of command responsibility, so far as your

2 client is concerned? You're just wasting our time.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: As far as I can understand,

4 Article 7, whoever is -- I am talking about command

5 responsibility -- whoever was in command, did or did

6 not take the necessary measures to punish the

7 perpetrators. These are documents which relate to the

8 fact that, whether the command had tried to prevent

9 something or not and that is how I understand Article

10 7.

11 JUDGE JAN: The article has nothing to do

12 with Celebici camp. He was not in charge, he had no

13 relations with that camp. That is the question.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is the command in

15 these particular circumstance?

16 JUDGE JAN: These instructions have not been

17 issued by him, they've been issued by the State and the

18 functions of the State. Let's confine ourselves to the

19 responsibility of your client. You've already led

20 evidence to show that he's not a member of the TO, he's

21 not a member of the war presidency and he's not a

22 member of the MUP. And as a TG-1 commander, he had no

23 responsibility of this Celebici prison. Even when he

24 was made commander of all the formations, that did not

25 include Celebici camp for the reason that he had a

1 specific task of leaving the -- but that's enough. Why

2 are you going into these areas, they're not relevant

3 for your purpose?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you had listened to

5 the witness, he was talking about something quite

6 different.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, this would be

8 enough...

9 JUDGE JAN: He's been held responsible for

10 the acts of others. But he says your defence is that

11 he had nothing to do with those persons, as a

12 commander. That's your case.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the evidence.

14 JUDGE JAN: So why are we going into all

15 these matters? Yours is a very specific and limited

16 task.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is clear, then you

18 should ask the Prosecutor. As long as such an

19 indictment exists, we must cast this doubt on every

20 element of the indictment and not only what we are

21 saying, what is clear to me and to you, seems not to be

22 clear to everyone in the courtroom.

23 JUDGE JAN: There are so many accused,

24 charged with different offences. Yours is a limited

25 one, command responsibility. You're being held

1 vicariously responsible for the acts of the others and

2 you say that I had nothing to do with those persons who

3 committed those acts and this is your case. So that

4 should be the end of the matter.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: But only on the basis of the

6 indictment, he said that he was responsible for

7 everything according to the prosecution. So you should

8 not adopt this attitude. I would like to point to some

9 facts that are quite contrary to these.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The evidence now which

11 you are relying upon, is evidence of another tactical

12 Group 2, but not of Group 1. So it doesn't have any

13 relevance to what he could have done, even if he did

14 it.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: All the forces from Konjic

16 was under somebody else's responsibility rather than

17 Delalic's, isn't that something significant?

18 JUDGE JAN: He's -- in the JUP. Your case

19 is, as I understand, that he had nothing as commander

20 of TG-1 or assistant chief of staff in the JUP, he had

21 nothing to do with the salvaging camp, so that should

22 be the end of it.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: That is what we claim and

24 what we are proving, but for us to be able to prove

25 that fully --

1 JUDGE JAN: Bosnia Government of regard to

2 observation, be relevant in this regard.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We spend so much time on

4 a very simple matter. It's this witness that you have

5 been examining and he has told you what he did. And I

6 don't see how you link it with your defence. He's told

7 you what he did and what happened in the group, in

8 which he worked. Well, if you want to share that,

9 share it. But I don't see the relevance of it.

10 JUDGE JAN: It's provided in the -- the armed

11 forces would be what the Geneva convention is about and

12 this is exactly what the Bosnia government has done and

13 what the functions of the Bosnia government has done.

14 And right in the convention themselves, that the armed

15 forces would be taught, given lessons in regard to the

16 provisions at the Geneva convention.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, life was far

18 more complicated than this case itself. And I am

19 trying to illustrate a part of that life for you. If

20 you feel that is not necessary, the document that were

21 part of the supporting material of the expert witness

22 indicate the order to strictly respect the Geneva

23 conventions. And whoever participated, discharged his

24 duties in the way assigned to him. It is hard to

25 explain that a country one day old swept by war. It is

1 very difficult to explain what happened and I don't

2 know how you will understand this camp if you don't

3 know the rest. But anyway, that is not up to me.

4 Thank you.

5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, could you tell me whether you

6 know anything about who had the authority to release

7 prisoners from the Celebici prison?

8 A. The knowledge I had at the time was as

9 follows: A part of the prisoners were released by the

10 military investigations commission. Then, the

11 prisoners were released when somebody intervened on

12 their behalf, people with prestige from Konjic. Also,

13 through certain family connections, there were family

14 links. There was intermarriage between Croats, Muslims

15 and Serbs, so there were family links too.

16 Q. Mr. Cerovac, while you were standing in for

17 Commander Ramic, were you ever consulted regarding the

18 release of any of the prisoners from Celebici prison?

19 A. Yes, this occurred in the second half of July

20 and on two occasions.

21 Q. Will you please tell us what happened, if you

22 can remember, in the first case, what was it about?

23 A. I shall very briefly, not to take up the time

24 of their Honours and all of you here present. The

25 first time it occurred was upon the intervention of Mr.

1 Tahirovic. Actually, it was a friend of his, whom I

2 knew personally, because we were of the same generation

3 and his name was Miro Golubovic. And the communication

4 was between Konjic and Glavaticevo, which is about 15

5 or 16 kilometres, as the crow flies. And the situation

6 in Konjic at the time was highly tense. There was

7 anti-Serb feeling was rampant because, in July, a

8 mysterious killing occurred, of a TO policeman in the

9 Village of Bradina. Or more precisely, Duboki Potok.

10 So that animosity soared. That is how I understood Mr.

11 Tahirovic. So there was no communication between us

12 for a long time. Not to keep the lines engaged and not

13 to allow the enemy to listen in.

14 Q. Mr. Cerovac, after being informed by Mr.

15 Tahirovic about this anti-Serb feeling, and after his

16 intervention on behalf of his friend, Golubovic, did

17 you undertake anything?

18 A. Yes. I told Tahirovic that he should find

19 the necessary forms and to try, by messenger, to send

20 them to the Glavaticevo region where I was situated at

21 the time.

22 Q. Did those forms reach you at Glavaticevo?

23 A. Not those forms, because in the surroundings

24 of Glavaticevo and in Glavaticevo itself, the situation

25 was extremely difficult in the combat sense. There

1 were casualties whom we had to take care of, so that I

2 was told that the messenger had reached Vranske

3 Stijene, whereas I, due to the situation in which I was

4 and the events in the surroundings --

5 JUDGE JAN: You didn't ask him to go into

6 those details. You only asked him what did he do in

7 regards to Tahirovic.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The release of

9 documents, I think that's a simple question.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC:

11 Q. Mr. Cerovac, did you authorise anyone -- you

12 have explained why you, yourself, didn't receive those

13 documents. Did you give anyone to sign on your behalf

14 this document for Miro Golubovic? The court wants you

15 to be brief.

16 A. Yes. Delalic told me that this messenger had

17 arrived with these forms in connection with Miro

18 Golubovic, so I told him to sign it because the

19 messenger could not go on foot for six or seven hours.

20 The messenger was not in a position to be able to do

21 that. I had other more pressing business. There were

22 dead people. There were wounded people, so I told him

23 to sign.

24 Q. Mr. Cerovac, while performing your duties as

25 staff commander, did you, on any other occasion,

1 authorise Mr. Delalic to sign a document?

2 A. This also happened while I was at

3 Glavaticevo. This was maybe four, five, six days after

4 this contact with Mr. Tahirovic and the case with

5 Mr. Golubovic. Dr. Izetbegovic contacted me in

6 connection with the case of two doctors,

7 (redacted).

8 Q. Did you, in connection with that

9 conversation, know that Mr. Delalic was there present

10 with Dr. Ahmar Izetbegovic?

11 A. Yes. Dr. Izetbegovic said that. He said

12 that he was speaking over his Motorola.

13 Q. Did you then, while acting as commander of

14 the municipal staff, authorise somebody to be able to

15 sign the discharge papers after these requests?

16 A. Yes. As in the first case, I decided quickly

17 and said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic should do that, and I

18 concentrated on my own business.

19 Q. Mr. Cerovac, do you know whether other

20 persons, for instance, the head of the MUP station or

21 the HVO commander, did they too, on certain occasions,

22 make such individual decisions rather like the ones you

23 made?

24 A. Yes. I learned about that, but not before

25 the second half of July. In Glavaticevo, there was a

1 MUP unit, a formation, company size, and my friend,

2 Mr. Nusret Sacibovic was in it. He was a member of the

3 military investigations commission. He was a lawyer.

4 Unfortunately, he, too, is no longer among the living.

5 He told me some details about these interventions made

6 on the basis of family ties and certain persons of

7 authority, so that some Serbs detained in Celebici were

8 released.

9 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you said that your intervention

10 in connection with Miro Golubovic was linked to the

11 heightened anti-Serb feelings in town. Within the

12 framework of your duties, did you ever learn that in

13 the prison itself there were some mistreatment of the

14 prisoners?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you, Mr. Cerovac, ever receive any

17 reports, personally or your headquarters as such, that

18 any illegal action was being taken against prisoners?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Mr. Cerovac, as a member of the staff and of

21 the joint command, did you ever learn of the conditions

22 regarding the food for prisoners in Celebici differed

23 from the food received by your own soldiers?

24 A. Not as far as I know. The situation with

25 food for all defence elements, both the Territorial

1 Defence and the troops of the HVO and the refugees who

2 were in collective centres, the food was prepared in a

3 central kitchen. The preparation of food was done

4 centrally, was centralised.

5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, with the exception of this

6 general information, because these were not your

7 responsibilities and the authority you granted on the

8 basis of some intervention by individuals, did you

9 later learn about what happened to the Celebici prison?

10 A. I know that the supreme command had issued a

11 request for speeding up the work of the military

12 investigations commission with the prisoners, and we,

13 the TO staff, sent a questionnaire. We, in Konjic, did

14 not have a developed judicial network. That was not

15 our competence. I think there was some contacts. Was

16 it in connection with the prisoners, these prisoners of

17 war, to go to Mostar, but in view of the circumstances

18 in Mostar and the development of operations, they could

19 not be taken there safely. So it was decided, as far

20 as I recall, that they should go to Zenica.

21 Q. Do you know whether the prison was, in fact,

22 moved to Zenica?

23 A. Communications, that is, the roads leading to

24 Zenica by October and November, they were intercepted

25 because of the conflict between the BiH army and the

1 HVO, so this made difficult moving the prison. I wish

2 to add that already at the beginning of November and in

3 the course of November, I took over the duties of

4 brigade commander.

5 Q. Mr. Cerovac, you just said that you became

6 brigade commander. Tell me, please, were the brigades

7 the next stage in the development of Territorial

8 Defence in Konjic?

9 A. The development of the army, with all due

10 respect, Madam Residovic, was conditioned by the

11 further transformation of the army.

12 Q. Now, please be brief. You have shown us the

13 chart with the formations. Tell us, please, how did

14 the further development of the army in Konjic develop?

15 After the detachments, what was the next stage?

16 JUDGE JAN: We already have the evidence of

17 General Arif on this point. The municipal staff became

18 part of this course. You said about the winding up of

19 this Celebici detention camp.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the late Arif

21 Pasalic testified before this court that he knew what

22 happened in November. I'm now asking this witness

23 after the detachments came the brigades and the witness

24 became a brigade commander. I'm asking him to tell us

25 what General Pasalic could not confirm in court. If

1 this witness can do it, I'm asking him to do it.

2 Q. We have the chart with the detachments, and

3 then please tell me, were brigades formed in Konjic and

4 when?

5 A. Yes. Within the territory of Konjic

6 municipality, two brigades were formed, the 45th

7 brigade and the 7th brigade.

8 Q. What post did you hold in that brigade?

9 A. I was brigade commander.

10 JUDGE JAN: When were these brigades formed?

11 Where were the brigades formed?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: We don't have a translation.

13 JUDGE JAN: When were the brigades formed?

14 A. The brigades were formed after the

15 establishment of the fourth corps, which was

16 established by decision of the presidency, so the

17 decision on the formation of the corps as the command.

18 Immediately after that came the agreements and the

19 arrangements regarding the formation of brigades. This

20 was the period of the transformation of the army

21 throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

22 corps were formed for the first time and the other

23 formations.

24 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic, at any point in time,

25 have a command military position in any of the newly

1 formed brigades?

2 A. No, never.

3 Q. Tell me, please, do you know when the prison

4 in Celebici ceased to exist?

5 A. This occurred, I don't know exactly when, but

6 I know that the prisoners were transferred to the

7 sports hall in the area of town known as Musala.

8 Q. From that time on, when the prisoners were

9 brought to Celebici, that is, from May until that

10 moment at the end of 1992 when they were transferred

11 from Celebici to Musala, those who remained, can you

12 tell me whether the municipal staff or the joint

13 command ever gave any authorisation to Zejnil Delalic

14 with respect to the barracks or to the Celebici prison?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. Tell me, please, in that period, did the

17 municipal staff or the joint command ever authorise

18 Zejnil Delalic to appoint certain persons within the

19 Celebici prison?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In connection with your testimony, I would

22 ask you only additionally when the last units of the

23 Yugoslav People's Army left the town of Konjic, if you

24 know?

25 A. In the first half of the month of May.

1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Cerovac, in view of the fact

2 that you explained to us the development of Territorial

3 Defence in Konjic, were there ever any private armies

4 in Konjic, outside these military structures that you

5 have explained to us?

6 A. If I'm not mistaken, I think you said

7 "private armies."

8 JUDGE JAN: You must be talking about

9 volunteers, not private armies. There was HOS. They

10 were volunteers. They were not private armies.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yesterday, sir, we heard

12 testimony that HOS came in mid-August and that it was

13 subordinated to the staff. I'm asking the witness

14 because one witness said that there were private

15 armies, and you heard the witness laugh at that, but

16 that is why I'm asking whether there were any private

17 armies or was there the Territorial Defence, the HVO

18 and the MUP?

19 Q. Did you ever hear of the existence of private

20 armies in Konjic?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. In '92, do you know whether there were any

23 Green Beret detachments in Konjic?

24 A. In '92, did detachments --

25 Q. Did detachments of Green Berets exist or were

1 they all under the command of the TO?

2 A. All units were under the command of the

3 Territorial Defence. All the formations that we formed

4 in the form of detachments. That was clear. I can't

5 see --

6 Q. Tell me, did later any kind of association

7 come into existence under that name?

8 A. Yes, as an association of citizens, the

9 organisations under the Green Beret of Bosnia.

10 Q. Can you remember when this happened?

11 A. I think this was in '94. In '94.

12 Q. Mr. Cerovac, thank you very much. I

13 appreciate your willingness to come and testify before

14 this court, especially in view of your impaired

15 health.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have

17 completed the examination-in-chief of this witness.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination by

19 defence lawyers?

20 MR. OLUJIC: The defence of Zdravko Mucic has

21 no additional cross-examination for this witness.

22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have this many

23 questions of cross-examination.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The answers will

25 probably be 50 pages.

1 MR. MORAN: I hope not, Judge. Let me plug

2 myself in and see if we can...

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Let me reintroduce

5 myself. My name is Tom Moran, and just so we're

6 up front with everybody, you and I talked over the noon

7 hour a little bit. Are we coming through in Bosnian?

8 A. Yes. I can hear you.

9 Q. Okay, good. I'm going to direct your

10 attention to a couple of things, one of which we talked

11 about over the noon hour and to a couple of things you

12 testified to on direct.

13 Sir, you look tired and if, at any time, you

14 don't understand me or if you're feeling ill or

15 something like that, let me know. We'll stop. We'll

16 work with you. If you don't understand one of my

17 questions, stop me and I'll rephrase it.

18 I'd like to direct your attention to some

19 testimony you gave this morning on direct. You were

20 talking about orders from the joint command at the time

21 you were the operations officer. As I recall your

22 testimony, it was that they had to be signed by both

23 the commander of the TO and the commander of the HVO,

24 who was the chief of staff; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

1 Q. You also said that if the commander was not

2 there, he could specifically authorise you or some

3 other member of the staff to sign his name to a

4 specific order. You're nodding your head "yes," and

5 this lady over here in the yellow outfit is what's

6 called a court reporter. She has to write down

7 everything that we say so that six months from now I

8 can remember what you said.

9 You also, as I recall, testified that the

10 commander could authorise you orally to sign certain

11 orders on his behalf. He could say at the morning

12 briefing, I'm going off someplace. You can sign this

13 order." Do you remember testifying to that, sir?

14 A. Sir, I understood from our conversation

15 during the lunch break that you used to be a

16 professional soldier. And in all armies in the world,

17 orders can be made, orders may be made orally or in

18 writing. There are specific circumstances when orders,

19 instructions or various authorisations are made orally.

20 Q. What I was getting at, though, sir --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel was not

22 disagreeing with you. He was merely reminding you of

23 what you said. I think that was sufficient. You could

24 have just said yes, that is what I said.

25 JUDGE JAN: In fact, he already said that the

1 commander cannot have the next man to sign on his

2 behalf.

3 MR. MORAN:

4 Q. Coming right to the heart of the matter that

5 I wanted to get at, is the reason you had to have

6 commander Ramic's authority or issue an order on his

7 behalf, while you were the operations officer, because

8 only the commander has the right to give commands and

9 give orders, and the only time that you as a

10 non-commander can give orders is when you are

11 specifically authorised by the commander to give them?

12 A. Exclusively, by authority of the commander.

13 Q. That was exactly the question I was asking,

14 sir. Well, you've also been a commander and in the

15 army that I was in, commanders were very special

16 people. They could, for instance, punish their

17 subordinates, punish soldiers, where someone who was

18 not a commander was not. Was that the same way in the

19 Bosnian army, only the commander could punish?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Sir, one more thing and then I think I'm

22 through, judge. It wasn't 50 pages.

23 JUDGE JAN: Thanks.

24 MR. MORAN:

25 Q. You're not a lawyer, are you, sir?

1 A. No.

2 Q. There's too many of us. If someone were to

3 ask you about some technical definitions in the Geneva

4 convention. Let me give me a hard core example. If

5 Ms. McHenry who is sitting over there, one of the

6 prosecutors, were to ask you a technical question about

7 a definition in the Geneva conventions, you wouldn't

8 know the answer to that, would you?

9 A. In the course of my training at studies in

10 Sarajevo, I had an examination which was called

11 international war law, and if you ask me a definition

12 of a war crime, I can give it to you immediately.

13 Q. But, if she, for instance, were to ask you

14 who was a protected person under the Geneva convention

15 on civilians, you couldn't answer that question, could

16 you?

17 A. I think I could.

18 Q. Then if she asks it, you're more than welcome

19 to answer it, if you think you can.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't tempt him more.

21 MR. MORAN: I've gone as far as I wanted to

22 go down this path. I afraid I may regret having done

23 it.

24 JUDGE JAN: As I stated earlier, it is

25 beyond --

1 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, I used to do that

2 and none of my students could answer, technically,

3 those questions. If the Yugoslav army can, if he can

4 answer it, then he can answer it.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other

6 cross-examination?

7 MS. BOLER: We have no questions, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you any

10 cross-examination?

11 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry.

12 MS. McHENRY: Good afternoon, Your Honours.

13 Yes, I do have some questions.

14 Q. Sir, good afternoon. My name is Teresa

15 McHenry and I'm going to be asking you some questions.

16 If you don't understand a question, please tell me and

17 I will repeat it or rephrase it.

18 Sir, I'm going to have to ask that you speak

19 into the microphone so that your answers can be

20 recorded. Did you understand, that if you don't

21 understand a question, you just have to let me know?

22 JUDGE JAN: Nodding will not suffice. You

23 have to say yes or no because it has to be recorded.

24 Nodding will not suffice, would not be sufficient. You

25 have to say yes or no.

1 MS. McHENRY:

2 Q. Sir, you would agree that in April and May of

3 1992, Mr. Delalic was already functioning as a member

4 of the TO, wouldn't you?

5 A. No. Your statement is incorrect.

6 Q. When did Mr. Delalic start functioning as a

7 member of the TO?

8 A. Military duty as member of the TO was during

9 the 27th of June, 1992.

10 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me, wouldn't

11 you, that when Mr. Delalic took charge in liberating

12 the Celebici barracks, he did so in his military

13 capacity as a member of the TO?

14 A. Not in the military sense, in the logistic

15 sense.

16 Q. Well, sir, you previously gave a statement to

17 a representative from the Defence, didn't you, on the

18 22nd of June, 1996?

19 A. Yes, only once did I give a statement to The

20 Hague Tribunal, and after that, I didn't.

21 JUDGE JAN: You were examined by the Defence

22 attorney before you came here? You were examined by

23 one of the Defence counsel.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

25 The interpreters cannot hear you.

1 JUDGE JAN: She's referring to that statement

2 which you made to one of the Defence counsel.

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. McHENRY:

5 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that in your

6 prior statement, you stated that: "I know that after a

7 meeting, Zejnil Delalic joined the patriotic movement

8 and as a member of the Territorial Defence, without any

9 function, took part with us in liberating the former

10 JNA compound in the Celebici barracks." You would

11 agree you made that statement, wouldn't you, sir?

12 A. He was there as an ordinary volunteer, but

13 formally he was not. He did not belong to the

14 Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Sir, my question is would you agree with me

16 that previously you stated that when Mr. Delalic

17 participated in the liberation of the Celebici

18 barracks, he did so as a member of the Territorial

19 Defence?

20 A. Not as a member of the Territorial Defence.

21 I was at the head of the group of people who are

22 members of the TO, and I explained my tasks very

23 clearly. We were all in uniforms and armed and

24 Mr. Delalic performed voluntary functions on a logistic

25 basis. He provided for the accommodations and did some

1 physical work, the loading and unloading.

2 Q. Was Mr. Delalic in uniform and armed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When was the first time you saw Dr. Delalic

5 in uniform?

6 A. In uniform, well, I saw him when we were

7 sending off the unit, which we sent to the area of

8 Pazaric and tactical area 1. It was a solemn occasion.

9 Q. And Mr. Delalic was wearing a uniform on that

10 occasion?

11 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says.

12 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

13 Q. Was this the first time you had ever seen

14 Mr. Delalic in a uniform?

15 JUDGE JAN: This is what he says.

16 MS. McHENRY: I just want to clarify, Your

17 Honour, that this was the first time.

18 Q. Sir, was that the first time you had ever

19 seen Mr. Delalic in a military uniform?

20 A. Yes. It was the first time, the first time

21 someone wears a uniform does not necessarily mean that

22 he's a member of the TO. To wear any part of the

23 uniform, if a young person was wearing it or someone

24 who was not able to be in the military, well, this was

25 a specific atmosphere prevailing then. I don't know if

1 you will be able to grasp this.

2 Q. Well, after this time -- let me ask you:

3 Before you saw Mr. Delalic at the solemn occasion of

4 the Gajret unit, how many times in the month previous

5 to that, from May 15 to June 15th, how many times had

6 you seen Mr. Delalic, approximately?

7 A. Could you please repeat the question? Do you

8 mean from May 15th to June 15th?

9 Q. Yes, sir. From May 15th to June 15th, on

10 approximately how many occasions did you see

11 Mr. Delalic?

12 A. I cannot say even approximately. I cannot

13 pronounce myself on this subject. I cannot really say

14 how many times I would have seen him.

15 Q. Was it more or less than ten times?

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you think it's fair

17 if he says he cannot remember, that's all he says.

18 MS. McHENRY:

19 Q. Could it have been the first time you saw

20 Dr. Delalic was on June 15th during the Gajret unit?

21 JUDGE JAN: But he met him when they took

22 over the possession of the Celebici camp.

23 MS. McHENRY:

24 Q. Between the time that you took over the

25 Celebici barracks with Mr. Delalic, in the time you saw

1 him on the solemn occasion, did you see Mr. Delalic in

2 between those times or you have just no idea if you

3 ever saw him?

4 A. Well, I would like to correct something. The

5 first time, it was not the 15th of June but the 20th of

6 June. The 20th of June.

7 Q. Sir, between the time that you took over the

8 Celebici barracks with Mr. Delalic and the 20th of

9 June, during the solemn occasion of the Gajret, do you

10 know whether or not you saw Mr. Delalic at all during

11 that time period?

12 A. I cannot really say the number of times I saw

13 him. I would like to speak the truth. If I had known

14 that I had seen him five times, I would say so. If I

15 had known if I saw him ten times, I would have so.

16 Q. I understand that you don't remember the

17 exact number of times. I am asking you whether or not

18 there were any times between the time you took over the

19 Celebici barracks and the 20th of June that you saw Mr.

20 Delalic. Did you see him even on one time or you just

21 don't remember?

22 A. In one of my answers, as far as I can

23 recollect, I said that I had contacts with Mr. Delalic

24 before he travelled to the Republic of Croatia, in his

25 apartment. And if you want to know how he was dressed,

1 I can tell you that. I outline this briefly, if I

2 asked him if he were able to provide some supplies to

3 us. Actually he was dressed very simply, he was

4 wearing a robe.

5 Q. May I ask for the usher's assistance?

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 239.

7 Q. Sir, do you recognise this as the copy of the

8 statement you gave to the Defence in June of 1996?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And is that your signature at the end of the

11 statement, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sir, I am going to direct your attention to

14 the eighth paragraph, it's a paragraph that begins, "I

15 know that after the meeting, Zejnil Delalic joined the

16 patriotic movement and as a member of the Territorial

17 Defence". Do you see that paragraph, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Sir, do you now agree with me that in your

20 prior statement, you indicated that when Mr. Delalic

21 took part in liberating the Celebici barracks, he did

22 so as a member of the Territorial Defence?

23 JUDGE JAN: What does it say there?

24 MS. McHENRY: I quoted that in the first time

25 I read it, sir.

1 JUDGE JAN: That's what his statement is?

2 MS. McHENRY: I'll ask him to explain it.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness has

4 answered this question twice.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't see any

6 discrepancy between what he said here and what is in

7 this paragraph.

8 MS. McHENRY: Let me just ask.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't go about

10 asking questions when they are clear. I don't think

11 anybody does it. You read it again. Read it to

12 yourself.

13 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I read it.

14 Q. Sir, is it correct that when Mr. Delalic

15 participated with you in liberating the Celebici

16 barracks, although he did not have a function, he did

17 so as a member of a Territorial Defence?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: This question has also been

19 answered by the witness, so I object.

20 THE WITNESS: No, he was not a member of the

21 Territorial Defence, not in the capacity of a soldier,

22 nor as a soldier having a specific duty. What he did,

23 he did out of patriotic reasons with respect to the

24 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 MS. McHENRY:

1 Q. Well, sir, can you explain what it means here

2 when it says, "As a member of the Territorial Defence"?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I don't know why you are

4 insisting on this. He has answered the question.

5 JUDGE JAN: What is he doing at the TO then?

6 He said without any functions. He went with the team.

7 He was living on logistics. That is what he says.

8 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that

9 there's some question about whether or not he was a

10 member of the Territorial Defence.

11 JUDGE JAN: Then he must have some function

12 as a soldier, as a bureaucrat, as a member of the

13 staff.

14 MS. McHENRY: That's why I am asking the

15 witness to explain what he means when he says, "As a

16 member of the Territorial Defence".

17 Q. Sir, can you please explain to me what you

18 mean when you say, "As a member of the Territorial

19 Defence"?

20 JUDGE JAN: Read the whole statement,

21 everything on it. What does it say? Read the whole

22 statement. I have read the whole statement. Maybe

23 it's a misquote.

24 JUDGE JAN: Ask the question again. And what

25 he means by as a member of the deal without any

1 functions?

2 MS. McHENRY:

3 Q. Sir what do you mean when you say, "As member

4 of the Territorial Defence without any function"?

5 A. Esteemed Prosecutor, at the time, all we had

6 developed organisational structure of the detachments

7 and of the units and the personnel body of the -- had

8 knowledge of this. And nowhere, Mr. Delalic figured in

9 the documents, neither in the staff, nor in the units

10 or the detachments were subordinated to the staff, so

11 nowhere as a member of the Territorial Defence. I am

12 just pointing out that he was performing a patriotic

13 duty and obligation.

14 Q. Thank you, sir. Let me move on. Sir, you

15 testified about the war presidency, would you agree

16 with me that in order to organise better the

17 Territorial Defence units in Konjic, the war presidency

18 made frequent staff changes, including changing the

19 Territorial Defence commander?

20 A. In April, the war presidency did not carry

21 out such changes. These changes carried out by the

22 municipal parliament of Konjic within the framework of

23 its responsibilities and it, in fact, proposed, but

24 appointments, but actual appointments were made in

25 Sarajevo. During the war, the war presidency, which is

1 a civilian body, which functioned because the municipal

2 assembly was not able to function. I would not refer

3 to it as a war presidency. It had authority that is of

4 the municipal assembly. It could not carry out

5 changes. It could only make proposals and not carry

6 out changes because, otherwise, there would be an

7 interference of competency, of jurisdiction.

8 Q. Sir, is it the case -- well, let me just go

9 on. Now, you would agree with me, sir, that when Mr.

10 Ramic was appointed TO commander in May and then again

11 appointed TO commander in the beginning of June, there

12 was never ever written communication from Sarajevo, was

13 there?

14 A. Written appointments, to be able to come from

15 Sarajevo, you have to understand the communication

16 problems we had between Konjic and Sarajevo.

17 Q. Sir, let me just tell you that sometimes if

18 you can just answer the question "yes or no", an

19 explanation may not be necessary, I may just be asking

20 you to confirm something and an explanation may not be

21 necessary. So if it's the case that written

22 appointments of TO commanders were not made by

23 Sarajevo, all you have to do is say "yes" and I think

24 we'll be finished more quickly.

25 A. Now I have to tell you, Mr. Ramic performed a

1 function. He was appointed and they do have those

2 documents, but those documents could not reach us in

3 time for the appointments because of the circumstances

4 I wanted to tell you about. In any case, his function

5 of commander was a legal function and there's -- there

6 is nothing debatable about it.

7 Q. Let me then ask you then, is it correct, sir,

8 that you have never seen any written appointment from

9 Mr. Ramic as TO commander in May at the beginning of

10 June?

11 A. No, I couldn't see them for these reasons,

12 but I did see the appointments personally and they must

13 be somewhere in the archives.

14 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that in the

15 prior statement to the Defence, you stated in order to

16 organise better the Territorial Defence units in

17 Konjic's municipality, the war presidency of the

18 Konjic's municipal assembly made frequent staff

19 changes?

20 A. I don't agree with you.

21 Q. Okay. Sir, let me ask that you look at the

22 fourth paragraph of your statement which states at the

23 time this begins, at the time of the aggression against

24 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the third

25 sentence, sir, do you agree with me, sir, that your

1 statement states in order to organise better, the

2 Territorial Defence units in Konjic's municipality, the

3 war presidency of the Konjic municipal assembly made

4 frequent staff changes?

5 A. I think my colleague did not understand me

6 well. I am just telling you -- I am telling you again

7 again, those authorisations of the municipal assembly,

8 I started working in '87 in the municipal staff and I

9 know what exactly are the competencies of the municipal

10 assembly, which were passed on. The municipal assembly

11 did this in the 70s, in the 60s, in the 80s and the

12 90s. It is the only one that is authorised to nominate

13 commanders of the TO staff. To add a brief CV and this

14 sent to the republican staff in the Sarajevo or the TO

15 staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which carries out the

16 actual appointments in accordance with its

17 competencies.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Will counsel kindly

19 indicate what is the inference of that sentence? Why

20 this question is relevant.

21 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, his

22 statement said something different from what he stated

23 in his testimony, and so I was trying to clarify.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he says, and I

25 think it's legitimate, in order to organise better TO

1 units in Konjic, the war presidency of Konjic municipal

2 assembly may request changes. So I didn't think

3 anything wrong with that.

4 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am not saying

5 that that's not correct. In fact, they did make

6 frequent staff changes, but the witness has just said

7 that it's not correct. In fact, he's stated that the

8 person to whom he gave his statement must have written

9 it down incorrectly because it does differ from his

10 testimony.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I really don't see the

12 need for this caution because no problems staff changes

13 here.

14 MS. McHENRY: I'll move on. I believe he's

15 stated -- he's given his explanation for it.

16 Q. Now, sir, when Mr. Delalic was appointed by

17 the war presidency of coordinator, you would agree with

18 me that it was to remove or resolve the differences

19 between the TO and the HVO?

20 A. I do not agree with your statement.

21 Q. Was Mr. Delalic appointed liaison officer by

22 the war presidency to remove or resolve the differences

23 between the TO and the HVO?

24 A. This could be called liaison officer

25 figuratively, but it doesn't mean anything. His role

1 was clearly stated by the legal authorities of Konjic's

2 municipality.

3 Q. Sir, in May of 1992, did you see the

4 appointment of Mr. Delalic's coordinator?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when did you see it?

7 A. After my return from an artillery position at

8 Lakuica (phoen). I had learned that joint command had

9 been formed and that in that command I had been

10 appointed operations officer and this was around the

11 19th or the 20th. I wasn't there at any joint meeting

12 between the legal organs of authority and the military

13 bodies. That is, the TO, the HVO and the MUP. But the

14 function of coordinator, a decision taken by the war

15 presidency to that effect, I did see.

16 Q. And, sir, you would agree with me that in

17 your prior statement, you stated that Mr. Delalic was

18 appointed coordinator or liaison officer, among other

19 things, to remove the differences between the TO and

20 the HVO?

21 A. Yes, liaison officer, I use the term

22 figuratively, but this lady Seken Ragita (phoen), added

23 that I wish to underline that I used it figuratively to

24 explain it to her. But, in fact, Zejnil Delalic did

25 not that have that function. He was not authorised as

1 a coordinator to remove any disagreements. And these

2 disagreements were -- occurred frequently. For

3 instance, logistic requirements were made by a

4 representative of the HVO, the TO, the civilian

5 authorities had their own very wide range of difficult

6 problems, refugees, food supplies, shelter for the

7 population, provision of accommodation for the

8 refugees, so that the civilian authorities had these

9 problems to deal with. On the other hand, there were

10 representatives of the TO with their own demands, et

11 cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

13 think we'll have a break and assemble at four-thirty,

14 thirty minutes time.

15 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

16 --- Upon commencing at 4.33 p.m.

17 (The witness entered court)

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

19 witness he's still under oath.

20 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you

21 are still under oath.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, proceed,

23 please.

24 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, if, in describing his various duties as

1 coordinator, Mr. Delalic said, among other things, he

2 was involved in resolving personnel matters between the

3 HVO and the TO, would that be consistent with your

4 understanding?

5 A. No. Mr. Delalic never had such authority to

6 deal with personnel problems between the TO and the

7 HVO, nor any other disagreements. His function was

8 purely a function of coordination between the legal

9 authorities and the armed forces.

10 Q. Just to make sure I understand, in your prior

11 statement when you talk about Mr. Delalic's appointment

12 as one that was done to remove disputes, are you saying

13 that the Defence representative wrote down what you

14 said incorrectly or just that you misspoke when you

15 said it?

16 A. I don't understand the question. Could you

17 repeat it, especially the first part of the question?

18 What person are you referring to?

19 Q. Sir, immediately before the break, you had

20 looked at your statement and the discussion of where it

21 is reported that what you said was that Mr. Delalic was

22 appointed as coordinator or as liaison officer to

23 remove the disputes between the TO and the HVO. I know

24 you've explained what you now believe to be the correct

25 position, but my question is: Do you agree that you

1 said this in your statement to the Defence in June '96

2 or is it your position that you said something

3 different and she wrote it down wrong?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I wish to draw

5 attention to the fact that this is not being read

6 properly because the word used is "differences," rather

7 than "disputes" because the witness did not, in fact,

8 say that in his previous statement. The word used is

9 "differences."

10 MS. McHENRY: I stand corrected. In my

11 understanding, they are the same.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, is it your question

13 that he should understand what is stated as different

14 from what he told the person who wrote it down?

15 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, he has

16 testified to something different than what's in the

17 statement, and I've asked him about that, and he has

18 given me a long answer, and I don't understand if his

19 answer is saying that the person wrote it down wrong or

20 if, in fact, he said it, but is now just saying that

21 it's really not a correct description of the

22 situation.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you would kindly be a

24 little more helpful to the Trial Chamber, let's hear

25 your proper formulation of what you think he said at

1 that time and what he now says it is.

2 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

3 Q. Sir, would you agree with me that the

4 recordation of your prior statement talks about, and

5 I'm referring to the paragraph that's in the middle of

6 the second page approximately, that says: "I also know

7 that Zejnil Delalic was on a decision of the Konjic

8 municipal war presidency, appointed coordinator between

9 the presidency and the Konjic municipality defence

10 forces." Do you see that paragraph?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And it then goes on to say: "The defence

13 forces were composed of two components, the Territorial

14 Defence and the HVO, and had separate systems of

15 command and control. It was evident even then that

16 there were differences in the HVO concept of defence

17 against the aggression. In order to set up a better

18 system of defence and remove such differences, Zejnil

19 Delalic was appointed liaison officer." It then goes

20 on to say: "At a meeting between representatives of

21 the HVO and the Territorial Defence, held on the 20th

22 of May, Mr. Zejnil Delalic acquainted us with the paper

23 concerning his appointment to the post, so afterwards,

24 any problems with respect to that coordination we

25 resolved with Zejnil Delalic."

1 My question is, sir, do you agree that this

2 is what you said previously?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think it's

5 better you leave him to deal with it? Would you kindly

6 give your attention, I'm sure you can do that.

7 A. The first part of the text in which I say

8 that, by decision of the war presidency, the position

9 of coordinator was established, and I said quite

10 correctly what the coordination was, that is, between

11 the civilian organs of authority and the defence

12 forces. That is correct. The second part of your

13 citation linked to differences in terms of control and

14 command, and the disagreements that existed, I should

15 like to explain as follows.

16 Q. Well, sir, you can explain, but first before

17 you explain, can we just clarify, did you say this when

18 you gave your statement to the Defence or not?

19 A. The first part is accurate, but a moment ago,

20 I said that Ms. Senka Nojica didn't understand me

21 then. She didn't fully understand what I was saying.

22 This was in 1996. I have come here exclusively to

23 present to you the truth and to present the evidence

24 for you to be able to make relevant conclusions for

25 you.

1 Q. So you believe, that she wrote down what you

2 said, incorrectly?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Sir, I'm now going to go on.

5 Sir, you --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what he's

7 saying is that what was written down might have been

8 what was thought as truth, but from the explanation he

9 was giving us, if what is meant is differences in the

10 concept of defence, it could not be. This is what he

11 was trying to explain to us, that Delalic could not

12 have been the liaison officer in respect of that type

13 of differences.

14 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour,

15 and I was offering his prior statement for impeachment,

16 merely for purposes of Your Honours determining his

17 credibility, and you have heard his explanation and you

18 have the document. So you may make your own

19 evaluation.

20 Q. Now, sir, when shown a document by Ms.

21 Residovic concerning the railroad, a document signed by

22 Mr. Delalic and others, you indicated that Mr. Delalic

23 had been given a certain task regarding the railroad;

24 do you remember that?

25 A. Yes, at the proposal of the economic staff to

1 establish rail communication together with the

2 representatives of the management of the railway

3 station.

4 Q. I'm not asking you to repeat it. I'm just

5 trying to remind you of the general subject matter so

6 that you will understand my next question. You don't

7 have to repeat what you have already said. If you

8 remember that, all you have to do is say, "Yes, I

9 remember." All right?

10 A. Will you please repeat your concrete

11 question?

12 Q. My question is: Who exactly had given

13 Mr. Delalic the task regarding the railroad?

14 A. The economic staff.

15 Q. Is this the economic staff, is this a part of

16 the war presidency or the joint command or the TO?

17 A. It was one of the organs of authority formed

18 by the legal authorities to deal with the civilian

19 segment.

20 Q. So it was not any part of the TO or the joint

21 command; correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let me just go on. In addition to this

24 document, I assume that you saw other orders that were

25 also signed by Mr. Delalic as coordinator; is that

1 correct?

2 A. I can't answer that question before I see

3 those documents. After all, it is 1998 now.

4 Q. Well, let me ask that you be shown documents,

5 Prosecution Exhibits 210 and 213. Let me ask while

6 we're getting those documents, because it may not even

7 be necessary for you to look at them, sir. Even if you

8 don't remember the specifics, would you agree with me

9 that there were some orders signed by Mr. Delalic that

10 did not involve logistics?

11 A. Could you be more precise, please?

12 Q. Well, sir, if you remember, did you see

13 documents in 1992 signed by Mr. Delalic in his role as

14 coordinator, that did not have to do with logistics?

15 A. If any documents were signed by him, on which

16 the function was indicated, the function of commander,

17 then Zejnil Delalic was probably a witness to an

18 agreement which he needed to coordinate the

19 relationship between the civilian authorities and the

20 military in connection with our needs regarding some

21 specific material. And if he signed, then he signed

22 only as an agreement and not as somebody having the

23 authority to give orders to members of the Territorial

24 Defence.

25 Q. Let me go on, sir. Sir, am I correct that in

1 the joint command staff, you were officer for

2 operations in training and at the same time, in the TO

3 staff, you were chief of staff?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So in addition to the joint command staff,

6 there was a separate TO staff; correct?

7 A. To ensure the better functioning of the

8 defence forces of the municipality of Konjic, we

9 attempted, through a joint command, to unify these two

10 components of the armed forces, to improve our

11 organisation and to be more successful in resisting the

12 aggression. Two systems which comprise the joint

13 command were the Territorial Defence and the Croatian

14 defence council, both systems had separate systems of

15 control and command, along vertical lines. May I

16 explain this?

17 Q. I think you already explained it.

18 JUDGE JAN: The answer was simple. You could

19 have said yes. You don't have to give extra

20 explanations when there is no confusion.

21 MS. McHENRY:

22 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that the set-up

23 of the joint command was not something envisioned in

24 the regulations of the Bosnian army, it was something

25 that Konjic did to try to solve the unusual and

1 difficult situation it was in; is that correct?

2 A. It was a specific decision.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think what counsel is

4 suggesting, that device was improvised to meet the

5 difficulties of the situation which faced you. The

6 situation of the joint command was the advice to meet

7 the specific situation which confronted you at that

8 time, not necessarily the --

9 JUDGE JAN: The army was one, but one took

10 its instructions from Grude and the other took its

11 instructions from Sarajevo. In order to have joint

12 operations, you have one joint command. This is what

13 she's saying.

14 A. Your Honours, I fully agree with what you

15 have just said. That is exactly true.

16 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. Thank you, Your

17 Honours.

18 Q. Now, sir, you testified there were occasions,

19 even extended occasions, when the appointed TO

20 commander was gone and you functioned as the TO

21 commander in his absence. You testified that one of

22 those occasions was during the second half of July.

23 JUDGE JAN: During the Oganj operations.

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Yes, sir. Approximately, sir, when were the

1 other occasions when you functioned as the TO

2 commander?

3 A. When commander Ramic was wounded at Prenj,

4 Mount Prenj. He personally told me, due to specific

5 circumstances, that I should take over command. Of

6 course, at the time when this oral authorisation was

7 given to me, because we had communications through

8 links, he didn't tell me he was wounded and this was

9 logical because that would be counterproductive for our

10 forces as we could be overheard by the enemy. So I

11 learned that later and this is only logical during

12 combat, when a commander is wounded.

13 JUDGE JAN: You need to answer the question.

14 When the Oganj operations started. You acted as a

15 commander. Was there any other occasion when you acted

16 as commander?

17 A. When the Oganj Operation started, the

18 commander was Mr. Esad Ramic.

19 JUDGE JAN: Was there any other occasion when

20 you acted as commander?

21 A. During the Oganj Operation, 15 or 16 days

22 later, when he was wounded, I took over, upon his

23 orders.

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Was there any other time, besides during the

1 second part of July during the Oganj Operation, was

2 there any other occasion where you functioned as TO

3 commander?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE JAN: That is simple answer.

6 MS. McHENRY:

7 Q. Okay. During the Oganj Operation, when you

8 were functioning as TO commander, who functioned as

9 your chief of staff, if any one?

10 A. No one. No one could because we were in a

11 specific situation. There was a war and we were not

12 officers in offices. There were my friends getting

13 killed around me.

14 Q. Sir, you mentioned that Mr. Goran Lokas was

15 part of the security division of the joint command.

16 You also, I believe, indicated that Mr. Sacir Pajic was

17 part of the security of the joint command, is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Mr. Sacir Pajic was also part of the TO

21 command, wasn't he?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, when asked about who took over Mr. Goran

24 Lokas's function in the beginning of June when he left,

25 you talked about a Mr. Kostic. Is it your testimony

1 that Mr. Kostic took over the position of Mr. Lokas or

2 you don't know?

3 A. The position of chief of security in the

4 joint command was allotted to the Croatian Defence

5 Council. So as I saw Elvir Kostic there, who was a

6 former officer in the state security service, that he

7 held that position. No appointment was made by,

8 conditionally speaking, the TO to that position because

9 that position, according to the distribution of posts

10 in the joint command, was allotted to the Croatian

11 Defence Council.

12 Q. Was the position filled by the joint

13 command? Was there ever any discussion in the joint

14 command, of which you were a member, about the need to

15 fill this position?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did Mr. Kostic attend meetings of the joint

18 command?

19 A. The meetings that I attended were attended by

20 the following people or, rather, the people holding the

21 following positions: The commander, the logistics

22 officer, the chief of staff of the joint command. From

23 the security sector, rarely would somebody participate

24 at meetings having to do with some arrangements,

25 agreements, et cetera, especially Mr. Lokas, because he

1 spent very little of his time in the premises of the

2 joint command.

3 Q. Well, sir, is it a fair statement that you

4 don't know about the authority of persons who had

5 duties in the joint command or the TO command, that had

6 duties that were unrelated to your own duties?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: I think that the question is

8 such that --

9 JUDGE JAN: It relates to one of the maps

10 which you produced in which he has drawn the various

11 functions in the joint command. She's questioning with

12 regard to that, whether -- it is in regard to that

13 question, the map, I think.

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, do you need me to repeat the question?

16 A. Yes, please.

17 Q. Sir, is it a fair statement that you don't

18 know about the authority of other persons in the

19 command staff who had duties that were unrelated to

20 your own duties?

21 A. The duties depended on the positions. That

22 is clear. The name of the function is quite clear.

23 Assistant commander for logistics is responsible for

24 logistics. The head of the security sector deals with

25 security; intelligence with intelligence; the

1 operations sector, the operations. That is the only

2 answer I can give you as a military man.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: With regard to what

4 you're saying, would you regard it as fair if anyone

5 made a comment that any persons whose duties are not

6 related to yours may not be familiar to you? That you

7 may not be familiar with the duties of those who are

8 not related to your own duties, even though they are in

9 the chart and you have so described them?

10 A. Theoretically speaking about the chart, I

11 know the theory of it, the jurisdiction of those

12 positions. During my work in the joint command, I

13 didn't know what they were doing on a daily basis

14 because there was no obligation for them to brief me

15 about those things, according to the control and

16 command structure.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why not --

18 JUDGE JAN: Maybe knowing the administrative

19 set-up, but not the person who were actually performing

20 those functions.

21 MS. McHENRY: I would think that's fair.

22 Q. You would agree with me, sir, for instance,

23 that your chart doesn't have Mr. Kostic even on the

24 chart?

25 A. Mr. Kostic is not on the chart, but his

1 sector is on the chart, the security sector.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you've stated that

3 during the Borci Operation, Mr. Delalic was functioning

4 in a military capacity as a soldier; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Everything I said about Mr. Delalic

6 during the Borci Operation, everything is correct.

7 Q. You would agree with me, sir, that when the

8 Borci Operation was being planned, Mr. Delalic was

9 involved in his function as a coordinator?

10 A. No, I will not agree with you. Mr. Delalic

11 does not have military and technical knowledge to plan

12 an action such as Borci. This is a very serious

13 exercise.

14 JUDGE JAN: Not even as a logistics officer?

15 Not even as a person responsible for logistics?

16 A. Even as a person involved in logistics, but

17 Mr. Kevric was present there on matters of logistics.

18 Mr. Delalic was requested to perform a military role,

19 not to issue orders, but to carry on a military

20 function, given his abilities to help us in the

21 logistic security area, because the situation was

22 specific in terms of the terrain and communication

23 links, and to convey requests from Glavaticevo to

24 Konjic and establish contact with the local population

25 for transporting.

1 JUDGE JAN: Very well.

2 MS. McHENRY:

3 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that in his

4 function as coordinator, including coordinating between

5 the war presidency and the Defence forces, Mr. Delalic

6 was at least knowledgeable about the operation in Borci

7 being planned?

8 A. Well, through Mr. Delalic, we established

9 contacts vis-à-vis the authorities concerning a number

10 of needs. The needs related to the provision of first

11 aid equipment, transport conveyance, and needs which

12 could be provided by the civilian authorities.

13 Q. You would agree that the order that you

14 referred to signed by Mr. Ramic about the Borci

15 operation, one copy was sent to Mr. Delalic and another

16 copy was sent to the war presidency? Would you agree

17 with that?

18 If you need to see the order to answer that

19 question, we can show it to you.

20 A. No, I don't need to see the order. I would

21 like to only say that it is quite normal that on the

22 basis of a written document, we inform the civilian

23 authorities what our intentions are and also the

24 coordinator what our intentions were, because we cannot

25 say in a figurative sense, "We need this and that." We

1 must explain why we need all this because we are a poor

2 town and we cannot just ask for anything.

3 Q. Sir, you will also agree with me that in Mr.

4 Ramic's order for Borci operations, he gives certain

5 orders to the MUP units, to the MUP units that were

6 going to participate in the operation?

7 JUDGE JAN: Is it really relevant?

8 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I think the

9 fact that orders were being given to the MUP units by

10 the TO commander is relevant to, in general, showing

11 the complexity and the intermixing of all the various

12 parts of the defence forces in Konjic.

13 JUDGE JAN: MUP also had some combat units,

14 and from Borci, after the HVO -- particularly, after

15 the HVO withdrew, they needed to collect all the forces

16 available to make the operation successful.

17 MS. McHENRY: That's right. If this witness

18 agrees that under certain circumstances the TO

19 commander had authority to give orders to the MUP, I

20 don't have any other questions.

21 JUDGE JAN: Maybe the MUP representative

22 attended the meeting where it was decided to have this

23 operation.

24 MS. McHENRY: Maybe, but if what this witness

25 says is correct, it would still be unusual and, in

1 fact, not possible for Mr. Ramic to give orders to the

2 MUP unit, so I am just finding that out.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.

4 MS. McHENRY:

5 Q. Sir, do you agree with me that there were

6 certain occasions, including for the Borci operation,

7 when Mr. Ramic gave orders to MUP units?

8 A. This is not illogical. I would contact the

9 Devil himself to save my country.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, you talked about

11 Tactical Group 1. In 1992, did you, yourself, ever see

12 any order or orders appointing Mr. Delalic as commander

13 of Tactical Group 1?

14 A. Yes, I think I saw such documents at the

15 beginning of the month of July.

16 Q. Do you recollect how many orders you saw

17 regarding Mr. Delalic's appointment as Tactical Group 1

18 commander?

19 A. No, I couldn't remember.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said at the beginning of

21 August. I'm sorry. It's not at the beginning of

22 July. It's at the beginning of August that he saw

23 those orders, at the beginning of the month of August.

24 MS. McHENRY:

25 Q. Now, sir, you would agree with me that the

1 supreme command could have appointed a Tactical Group

2 commander to have authority over all units falling

3 within the authority of the supreme command? Let me

4 clarify. I am not asking you for your opinion as to

5 what the supreme command did, since you're not a member

6 of the supreme command. I'm just questioning you about

7 something you said in direct.

8 You would agree with me that the supreme

9 command could have appointed a tactical group commander

10 to have authority over all units that fell within the

11 authority of the supreme command?

12 A. Your wording of your question, the way you

13 formulated it, is not clear to me.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a hypothetical

15 statement, your thoughts, whatever way you look at it.

16 I agree that it could or might not, but it's not

17 directed at any particular situation.

18 A. There could have been some appointments, as

19 the Prosecutor states, of all the formations in the

20 case of Jablanica and Dreznica. This could have

21 occurred through ignorance of someone belonging to the

22 staff or of someone who was there. When I saw such an

23 order, I realised that this was a question of military

24 ignorance, especially when the words "all armed

25 formations" are used, all armed formations in Javica

1 (phoen), Jablanica and Konjic, where the MUP, the HVO

2 and the TO. The HVO was never subordinated to the

3 command of the formation of the armed forces.

4 MS. McHENRY:

5 Q. I think you've explained that. My specific

6 question was: Certainly, you would agree that the

7 supreme command have the authority to appoint a

8 Tactical Group commander as a superior authority over

9 all units falling within the authority of the supreme

10 command?

11 JUDGE JAN: Yes. This question is very

12 simple. The supreme command could place --

13 A. The question is very simple. The supreme

14 command was authorised to form tactical groups and to

15 order the municipal staff to subordinate the Tactical

16 Group for certain tasks in a given area and for a given

17 period of time.

18 MS. McHENRY:

19 Q. Thank you. Sir, who were members of the

20 Tactical Group 1 staff?

21 A. Which period do you have in mind?

22 Q. The period from June until November. If you

23 want to make a distinction, you can tell us who was a

24 member of the staff when Mr. Polutak was commander and

25 who was a member of the staff when Mr. Delalic was

1 commander?

2 A. When Mr. Mustafa Polutak was commander, I

3 know him personally, and the chief of staff was Mr.

4 Pelica (phoen), former officer of the JNA, and he

5 contacted him on matters of artillery. During the TG-1

6 when Mr. Delalic was in charge, I don't know who was in

7 the staff. I don't know much about their structure and

8 the names of the persons involved. This was not my

9 duty to know them.

10 JUDGE JAN: No, it is not your duty.

11 MS. McHENRY:

12 Q. Now, sir, you testified, and you can correct

13 me if I am wrong, that the purpose of Tactical Group 1

14 was to lift the siege of Sarajevo and the purpose of

15 the JUG Operation was to lift the siege of Sarajevo.

16 My question is: Is it the case that all the troops

17 from Konjic who participated in JUG 92 were

18 subordinated to either Tactical Group 1 or Tactical

19 Group 2?

20 A. The units which the municipal staff of the

21 Territorial Defence of Konjic subordinated to TG-1,

22 once they arrived in Pazaric, they automatically

23 subordinated to TG-1. The units which we sent to the

24 zone of responsibility of TG-2, when we brought them

25 there, they are subordinated to the commander of TG-2.

1 JUDGE JAN: Just before you start the next

2 question, there was Operation Oganj going on.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Operation Oganj also was

5 going on about the same time. When were the troops

6 from this Oganj Operation withdrawn from there? See,

7 there were two operations, TG-1 lifting the siege of

8 Sarajevo; Oganj to liberate the Borci and the

9 surrounding area. Certain troops of yours were

10 committed to the Oganj Operation. Certain troops were

11 committed to Sarajevo. When were the troops committed

12 to the Oganj Operation withdrawn from there? TG-1 is

13 not concerned with the Oganj Operation.

14 A. TG-1 had no connection with the Borci

15 Operation. Borci Operation was carried out on order of

16 the command of Sarajevo in order to relieve pressure on

17 our forces in Sarajevo. Our task was to make it easier

18 for our defence forces who were around Sarajevo to draw

19 some troops to our side and to liberate some of the

20 barracks to reach the Nevesinje Ploca.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE JAN: Troops which were committed to

24 the Oganj Operation, were they withdrawn from there?

25 Because one of the witnesses has said that they didn't

1 want the Borci area to remain undefended because they

2 were afraid there might be an attack on Konjic from the

3 Borci side.

4 A. The Operation Oganj lasted a little over the

5 month. Of course, all the units were not withdrawn

6 from the operation. Some of them remained to carry on

7 daily activities and we continued until the signing of

8 the Dayton Agreements. We continued our combat

9 activity for the liberation of the country. This is

10 quite normal.

11 JUDGE JAN: When you talk about all

12 formations, you also have to take into consideration

13 troops considered for Oganj.

14 MS. McHENRY:

15 Q. Sir, let me go back for a minute. Is it the

16 case when you stated in direct examination that you led

17 a group that was subordinated to Tactical Group 2, do

18 you mean that you just physically led the group there

19 or do you mean that you, for some period of time, were

20 subordinated to Tactical Group 2?

21 A. Initially, I took the group to the Trnovo

22 area. Before then, I went to the command of TG-2 to

23 find what the tasks to accomplish were and to the

24 commander of the unit, Mr. Zlatan Regic (phoen), who

25 was appointed commander of the unit, to give Mr. Regic

1 instructions for his further work.

2 Q. Was this during the time that you were chief

3 of staff for the TO, sir?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned before that the

6 Gijret unit, for a time, was subordinate to Tactical

7 Group 1. For how long a time was the Gijret unit

8 subordinate to Tactical Group 1?

9 A. I cannot say exactly how long this

10 subordination lasted. I don't think it lasted long.

11 Once the tasks were taken care of, they returned to

12 Konjic and became a part of the municipal staff again.

13 So once they returned to Konjic, they were no longer

14 subordinated to the command of the TG-2.

15 Q. Now, sir, I'm correct that the Oganj

16 Operation -- well, let me go on, actually. Sir, were

17 there ever any soldier units from Konjic who were

18 subordinate to Mr. Delalic when he was commander of

19 Tactical Group 1?

20 A. Kindly repeat the question. I'm sorry.

21 Q. When Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical

22 Group 1, were there any units that were subordinated to

23 Tactical Group 1?

24 JUDGE JAN: Troops from Konjic.

25 MS. McHENRY: Troops from Konjic, yes, I'm

1 sorry. Thank you, Your Honour.

2 A. I already answered the question a long time

3 ago. This was on the order of Mr. Ramic.

4 JUDGE JAN: He, in fact, yesterday mentioned

5 the name of the leader of the troops which were

6 committed from Konjic to TG-1 when (inaudible) was the

7 commander? (Judge Jan's mic not on)

8 MS. McHENRY:

9 Q. I'm sorry. Can I just ask you, sir, to

10 potentially repeat what you stated before? How many

11 soldiers and for what unit were subordinated to

12 Mr. Delalic when he was commander of Tactical Group 1?

13 A. You asked me the question as to the number of

14 soldiers, soldiers who belonged to a unit called

15 Gijret. There were about 200 soldiers, but army as

16 such, not. The terminology is wrong. "Army" is wrong

17 to use. "Soldiers" is the right term.

18 Q. I'm sorry. Sir, didn't you just say that the

19 Gijret unit was no longer subordinate to Tactical Group

20 1 when Mr. Delalic was commander?

21 A. The task was completed with regard to TG-1,

22 Tactical Group 1. The commander was Mr. Polutak and

23 you keep mentioning Mr. Delalic. The unit of Gijret

24 went back to Konjic and automatically returns to its

25 own organisational formation, structure. So do not

1 mention Mr. Delalic with reference to TG-1 and Gijret.

2 This unit was subordinate to Mr. Mustafa Polutak in

3 Pazaric.

4 Q. Sir, I understood your testimony about that,

5 and that's why --

6 MS. McHENRY: Do you want me to continue,

7 Your Honour or do you want me to stop?

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's get this issue

9 clear because it's still not satisfactory.

10 What happened when Delalic was appointed to

11 Tactical Group 1? Was he not assigned any men to work

12 with him?

13 A. Of course he needed to have men to work with

14 him. There was a staff up there, the brain behind it

15 all. I'm not familiar with that staff and I do not

16 know how Mr. Delalic organised that. Those are his

17 responsibilities. At the time, I didn't have any right

18 to interfere. I had my permanent, regular activities

19 in Konjic.

20 JUDGE JAN: Learned counsel is asking, how

21 many units from Konjic TO were placed under the command

22 of Zejnil Delalic when he became the commander of

23 TG-1? How many units from TO were detached and sent to

24 TG-1?

25 A. To TG-1?

1 MS. McHENRY:

2 Q. Yes, sir.

3 A. While Mr. Zejnil Delalic was commander, as

4 far as I know, not a single unit, not a single unit.

5 JUDGE JAN: This is the answer.

6 MS. McHENRY:

7 Q. So, sir, if there is a chart that shows there

8 were between 3 and 500 soldiers attached to Tactical

9 Group 1 during the time that Mr. Delalic was commander

10 of Tactical Group 1, that chart would be incorrect,

11 according to your testimony?

12 A. You keep saying that I said that 200 soldiers

13 were subordinated to Mr. Zejnil Delalic. That is not

14 correct. I have just said that not a single unit, no

15 fixed number of soldiers, as far as I know during the

16 existence of Tactical Group 1 while Mr. Zejnil Delalic

17 was commander, were sent by order of the TO commander

18 to that Tactical Group.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose we can end

20 here and continue by 10.00 tomorrow morning.

21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day

24 of May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.

25