1 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
3 gentlemen. May we have the appearances please.
4 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours, I
5 am Theresa McHenry for the Prosecution along with Mr.
6 Turone and Mr. Huber.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
8 appearances for the Defence, please.
9 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Good morning, Your Honours,
10 my name is Eugene O'Sullivan. I appear on behalf of
11 Mr. Delalic. My colleague and lead counsel, Ms.
12 Residovic, will not be here this morning. She will be
13 back at 2.30 when we call our next witness.
14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,
15 I am Tomislav Kuzmanovic along with a legal assistant,
16 Nico Duric, here on behalf of defendant, Mr. Mucic. I
17 would like to advise the court that tomorrow Mr. Duric
18 will be present, I will not be present and he will be
19 here on our behalf, on Mr. Mucic's behalf. Thank you.
20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
21 am Salih Karabdic attorney from Sarajevo, defence
22 counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. My colleague, Mr. Tom
23 Moran, will not be present for the next two weeks due
24 to family business.
25 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I
1 am Cynthia McMurray for Esad Landzo and my colleague,
2 Ms. Nancy Boler, will appear at 2.30 this afternoon.
3 MR. GREAVES: I haven't been announced, I am
4 Michael Greaves and I am here to assist Mr. Karabdic in
5 one matter today.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll start this morning
7 with Delic's motion for a binding order. Has the
8 Prosecution anything to say about it? We have not seen
9 your own response to it.
10 MS. McHENRY: That's right Your Honour. It
11 was only recently filed. Our response will be very
12 short and I am happy to give it orally. I will note
13 for the record that there's no indication that the
14 Defence has attempted to get these documents without a
15 binding order or that the FRY has been provided
16 notification of their request, such that their position
17 may be ascertained. With respect to the position of
18 the office of the Prosecutor, regarding the request, we
19 defer to the court.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we have the motion
21 now. Let's hear the motion.
22 MR. GREAVES: It's in respect to this matter
23 that I have been asked to assist Mr. Moran and Mr.
24 Karabdic today. Your Honour, of course having sat on
25 the appeal concerning the issuing of subpoenas and
1 binding orders to state officials and individuals
2 acting in their own private capacity, we'll be well
3 familiar with the decision that was issued in October
4 of last year and so I needn't go in at any great
5 length, to that decision. Suffice it to say that the
6 conclusions that the Tribunal, the Appeal Chamber came
7 to on that occasion were these: The Tribunal is
8 empowered to issue binding orders and/or requests to
9 states and those states are obliged to comply with
10 them. The tribunal may not address binding orders to
11 state officials acting in their official capacity. As
12 far as individuals are concerned, there are extensive
13 powers to summon subpoena and address other requests or
14 binding orders to that.
15 Set out in the motion are a series of
16 categories of documents, each of which, in my
17 respectful submission to Your Honour, is not only
18 relevant but highly relevant to the proceedings before
19 this tribunal. Can I take first of all at page 1 of
20 Mr. Moran's document, Item A-1. Your Honour will
21 recall there has been some evidence about the time at
22 which pressure was placed upon the Yugoslav
23 government. As a result of which it appears that
24 orders were issued to extract from the territory of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the then called JNA. Your Honour,
1 paragraph A-1, in our respectful submission, adequately
2 identifies a category, probably quite a small category,
3 a category of documents, the nature of which is highly
4 relevant in our respectful submission to the issue of
5 international armed conflict, which is one of the
6 matters squarely before this Tribunal.
7 Secondly, paragraph A-2. Again, that is an
8 issue which goes squarely to two matters before the
9 Tribunal. Firstly, the issue of international armed
10 conflict; and secondly, the issue of nationality.
11 Again, in my respectful submission, it is sufficiently
12 identified, that the category of documents which are
13 sought and again, in my submission, easily identifiable
14 by the government to whom that would be directed.
15 Thirdly, at paragraph A-3, which is at the top of page
16 2, Your Honour. Again, all reports in possession of
17 the government to the federal republic of Yugoslavia,
18 received from the JNA or other entity, indicating the
19 extent of compliance with the orders that were given
20 under paragraph 1 and 2 above. Again, in my
21 submission, sufficiently identifiable. Again, probably
22 quite a small category of documents which ought to be
23 easily retrievable from the appropriate place.
24 Paragraph 4, again, an issue that goes to the
25 very heart of the question of international armed
1 conflict. The matter which was extensively discussed
2 in the matter in judgement in the Tadic case. The
3 possession of those documents would enlighten,
4 greatly, this Tribunal in our respectful submission.
5 Again, a category, a class of documents sufficiently
6 identified in our respectful submission to enable swift
7 retrieval by the federal republic of Yugoslavia.
8 I turn now to paragraph B, which is at the
9 bottom of there. Your Honour, there is a report and I
10 have in my possession that report, so that if further
11 identification is required of such documents, it can be
12 given. Those are items which go to an issue of
13 impeachment that only Mr. Moran has identified.
14 Paragraph B-1 to 4 set out a series of items that are
15 sought. Plainly this was a report prepared by the
16 federal republic of Yugoslavia. One anticipates that
17 it is easily identifiable, provided the files
18 comprising that report have been maintained. Each of
19 those documents ought to be readily identifiable.
20 Paragraph 4 seeks, actively, the assistance of the
21 federal republic to identify the identity and location
22 of those witnesses.
23 Your Honour, paragraph B-5. It's quite some
24 time ago now, but I am sure Your Honours remember, the
25 lady who is identified there. She plainly appeared on
1 television in Belgrade some two months before or the
2 the month before she gave evidence last year. A copy
3 of that is in the possession of the defence. However,
4 in order to properly to prove it, it is sought in the
5 terms that are set out in paragraph B-5. A means of
6 proving it properly is sought. It may, however, be, of
7 course, that my learned friend for the Prosecution
8 might agree to admit that such an event took place and
9 that would circumvent the need for such an order in
10 that case.
11 Your Honour, those are the documents. In my
12 submission, they are sufficiently identifiable and that
13 of course was one of the matters that Your Honour and
14 your brother judges in doing the appeal in the Blaskic
15 subpoena decision were obviously anxious about, the
16 question of sufficient identification of documents. In
17 my respectful submission, the documents are relevant,
18 have probative value or would have probative value and
19 are documents that would be of great assistance to this
20 Tribunal to see. In my respectful submission, Your
21 Honour has the power, the documents are identified and
22 it would be proper to grant the orders that are sought
23 by my friend Mr. Moran and Mr. Karabdic.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Some of my problems are
25 whether you have made any efforts to obtain these
1 documents and from your motion I think all of them are
2 public documents and they do not belong to any
3 classified category as far as your memorandum here
4 issues. You have not indicated what efforts you have
5 made to take them and have them refused. I don't see
6 why you should start with a binding order when no
7 effort has been made.
8 MR. GREAVES: As I understand it, no
9 significant effort has been made to recover these
10 documents from the government.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: They're public
12 documents, especially the reports of the committee,
13 will be a public document.
14 MR. GREAVES: The report, of course, is a
15 public document. But the documents, upon which the
16 report was based, are not. It's the documents upon
17 which the report is based that are sought.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The documents related to
19 the withdrawal of the JNA, you have not indicated
20 within any category which you cannot obtain
22 MR. GREAVES: Just using one's common sense,
23 I suspect they're a class of documents that there will
24 be some reluctance to provide.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's not go on
1 that assumption until there is a refusal.
2 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours, give me a moment,
3 please. Your Honour, one problem my friend Mr.
4 Karabdic is faced is of course there exists as between
5 his country and the FRY, at present, no diplomatic
6 relations, so that presents some difficulties to him in
7 making the request on an official basis to the
8 government of the FRY. I'm sorry, I interrupted Your
9 Honour and I do apologise and I did follow up on what
10 Your Honour is saying.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is not a question
12 between two governments. It's between counsel and the
13 authority in possession of these documents. It is
14 counsel who should make the approach and then show to
15 the Trial Chamber that he has been refused, when, in
16 fact, they show the documents are there. Now one of
17 these documents are related to impeachment and you
18 indicate certain witnesses under light. It's fairly
19 difficult to know how that is related to anything.
20 MR. GREAVES: That is one matter -- I haven't
21 had an opportunity to speak to Mr. Moran as to the
22 precise nature of that matter.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you're
24 really not properly equipped to move the motion?
25 MR. GREAVES: Yes, that may be right, but,
1 Your Honour, what I suggest is this: That the best way
2 to deal with this matter is perhaps to adjourn it
3 without coming to a conclusion upon it, so that at
4 least one further step can be done before drawing it
5 back to Your Honour's attention.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think so, until we
7 have a firm refusal.
8 MR. GREAVES: I think that would be kind if
9 Your Honour would do that and that would assist us.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, of course. So the
11 motion is adjourned. We wouldn't strike it out, but
12 ordinarily one would have struck it out, but we'll
13 adjourn it.
14 We now turn to the application in respect of
15 protective measures for DB.1. Have you any
17 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, we defer to
18 the court in that matter.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Also like the earlier
21 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I apologise
22 for not having had the opportunity to read it
23 yesterday, given our short response. It would have
24 been more efficient had I been able to tell you
25 yesterday, but we defer to the court entirely.
1 JUDGE JAN: What precisely are the protective
2 measures you are seeking? In regard to the witnesses
3 of the Prosecution, their names will appear and that
4 sort --
5 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct.
6 JUDGE JAN: -- and you also want their face
7 to be sort of covered or something like that?
8 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's correct. You'll
9 note, Your Honours, the ten items, the standard items
10 from the protection of that nature, the minimum
11 protection of identity and disclosure to the public or
12 to the media.
13 JUDGE JAN: That's all?
14 MR. O'SULLIVAN: That's all.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, well, there should
16 be no objection to that, I think.
17 JUDGE JAN: No objection to that?
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The application is
20 JUDGE JAN: To the extent that the face not
21 be shown and his identity not be indicated.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, we have another
23 motion from Hazim Delic about the designation of an
24 expert witness. Mr. Greaves, are you aware of that
25 too, the designation of expert witness?
1 MR. GREAVES: (Microphone not on).
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
3 MR. GREAVES: It doesn't work as well as the
4 one down the other end.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is Mr. Karabdic prepared
6 to take this?
7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, there has been a
8 misunderstanding; however, let me take on this motion.
9 Hazim Delic requests that an expert be
10 assigned and the name of this expert witness is Carl
11 U. Kent. Mr. Kent is an experienced investigator who
12 has been involved in over 2,000 investigations, and he
13 has appeared in over 600 court cases as an expert
14 witness. On the basis of the transcript of these
15 proceedings, he is going to testify on whether the
16 injuries to which the Prosecution witnesses testified
17 were possible and whether the consequences which the
18 witnesses have mentioned were possible and
19 were durable.
20 This expert witness is going to say whether
21 the kinds of blows and the number of blows that the
22 witnesses alleged to have sustained, for instance, with
23 the baseball bat and similar instruments would be
24 possible. He is also going to investigate other types
25 of injuries to which witnesses had testified, and I
1 think that he is going to be able to shed light on the
2 veracity of the witnesses testimonies.
3 We do not have independent corroboration for
4 these testimonies. We do not have medical reports
5 which would have been issued immediately following
6 these alleged injuries. We only are relying on witness
7 statements and their testimonies but we do need an
8 expert witness which is what we are requesting and we
9 ask that our motion be granted.
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might
11 assist Mr. Karabdic for a moment, I do have personal
12 experience with the expert that they have requested.
13 He was my investigator on one murder case in 1992 and
14 he was the Prosecution's investigator on a capital
15 murder case that I represented in 1996. I can speak
16 that he has vast experience and he is an excellent
17 investigator and probably has as much forensic
18 experience, as far as testifying about injuries, as any
19 person I know, if that may assist the court.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Ms.
22 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honours, if the
23 Defence were trying to hire this person as an
24 investigator, the Prosecution would not object. But if
25 they are trying to call him as an expert about
1 injuries, we certainly would object for reasons
2 including that he is an investigator, not a medical
3 expert; even looking at the material supplied, there's
4 no indication that he can assist Your Honours in
5 questions of expertise dealing with injuries. Even
6 assuming a medical expert would be able to do that
7 based on reports, it would have to be a medical expert,
8 not a police investigator. We would be objecting to
9 the calling of this person.
10 JUDGE JAN: He's not a doctor.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, he's not. He's a
13 JUDGE JAN: Only a forensic one, forensic
14 medicine --
15 MS. McMURREY: I don't have his CV in front
16 of me because I don't have that document. But if I
17 recall --
18 JUDGE JAN: Surely you've relied on his
19 evidence --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
21 MS. McMURREY: I have and I've had hundreds
22 of cases since then. I do believe that when he left
23 the Prosecutor's office in Harris County, he was a
24 homicide detective before that, if I remember
25 correctly, before he went into investigative work
1 which, I believe, would qualify him as a homicide
3 JUDGE JAN: We want someone who has
4 specialised in the forensic aspect of the medical
6 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. I didn't hear the
7 first part of your question.
8 JUDGE JAN: A forensic person who specialised
9 in the forensic department of the medical profession.
10 MS. McMURREY: I can't testify that he does
11 represent that part of the profession. I'm not quite
12 sure. I do know that he has vast experience in murder
13 cases and injuries; and from his experience, since
14 there are no medical reports to rely upon, I think that
15 Mr. Delic is asking that he be allowed to testify from
16 his experience in injury cases.
17 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: Has he made any
18 investigation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, specifically in
19 this case?
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am not
21 qualified to respond. My guess is that he has not
22 travelled to Bosnia. I don't believe he has even
23 travelled to The Hague yet.
24 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: He would speak in theory
25 about injuries, without being a medical doctor.
1 MS. McMURREY: I believe he would be speaking
2 hypothetically and in theory, and I don't believe that
3 he has done anything except review the daily records
4 and transcripts of this case. I'm just assisting from
5 what I believe is my experience with this expert.
6 JUDGE ODIO-BENITO: So he hasn't examined any
7 of the alleged victims?
8 MS. McMURREY: I don't imagine he has. Only
9 Mr. Karabdic can answer those questions, I believe.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you sure he has
11 examined any of them?
12 MS. McMURREY: I was just going to offer my
13 assistance as far as I'm able to.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Well, I
15 don't know how he can be put forward as an expert. If
16 you can give us good reasons why he should be accepted
17 as an expert, one can then consider the business for
18 which he has been called, as an expert.
19 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, enclosed with
20 our proposal is his resume and his working career. It
21 is stated here that he took part in investigations and
22 reconstructions of numerous cases of murder and
23 inflicting of serious bodily injuries. In this case,
24 in our case, I believe that he would be of significant
25 assistance to us. He hasn't studied the transcript so
1 far, but we would request him to do so and to provide
2 an opinion on that. This has been articulated in our
3 request, in our motion, and we do believe that he would
4 be able to help us in this case.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber has
6 defined who an expert is, and it doesn't appear he
7 comes within the scope of those persons who we have
8 accepted as experts, in any particular field as such,
9 because I don't see how he could be accepted as an
10 expert. An expert in what? That is what concerns us
12 MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry to rise at this
13 moment. Has Your Honour actually seen the curriculum
14 vitae of the --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I have it before
17 MR. GREAVES: Can I direct Your Honours'
18 attention to, first of all, paragraph 1. That is
19 considerably more, I think, the homicides and most --
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It says detective.
21 MR. GREAVES: Well, I was going to go on to
22 the next paragraph where he has given expert evidence
23 in more than 600 criminal trials. That, I think, is
24 extremely extensive expertise that's involved in giving
25 evidence of that kind in so many trials. He plainly,
1 as far as the authorities in his home state are
2 concerned, is recognised as an expert in such
4 Your Honour, it's not just doctors who can
5 give evidence about the effect that hitting somebody
6 500 times with a baseball bat, in a period of five
7 hours, can give. Police officers who have been
8 involved in an investigation of this kind of
9 incident --
10 JUDGE JAN: Don't you think a doctor, an
11 anatomist would be in a better position to give us a
12 good opinion with regard to the effect of 500 blows
13 over a period of five hours?
14 MR. GREAVES: But that doesn't preclude a
15 police officer --
16 JUDGE JAN: He should have some knowledge of
17 the human body.
18 MR. GREAVES: -- from testifying about the
19 effect of such injuries and such assaults.
20 JUDGE JAN: Surely you can find forensic
21 experts who can tell us probably more qualitatively as
22 regards to the effect of such a large number of blows
23 over such a short period of time.
24 MR. GREAVES: Of course, the point is this --
25 JUDGE JAN: We're not holding investigations
1 here. I'm sure he's a very good investigator. I'm
2 sure he's a very good detective, but we're concerned
3 with the effect of such a large number of blows on a
4 person over such a short period.
5 MR. GREAVES: Can I just draw Your Honours'
6 attention to page 2 of the man's CV?
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. I have it before
9 MR. GREAVES: Does Your Honours see in about
10 the middle page under his education?
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Education, yes.
12 MR. GREAVES: Your Honours will see that he
13 has had extensive training, particularly, for example,
14 in the issue of blood splattering and so on. Those are
15 the sorts of issues that are dealt with by forensic
16 medical witnesses as well. So he has, in my
17 submission, extensive education and expertise in that
18 area. That, no doubt, is why the state of Texas uses
19 him as an expert witness.
20 Your Honours, in my submission, there is also
21 this: One of the issues that comes from having lawyers
22 from all over the world is this: We all have our own
23 experts who we know and trust, and my learned friend
24 Mr. Moran knows and trusts this police officer or
25 ex-police officer. It is important, in my submission,
1 as part of the process of defending against charges of
2 this kind, that counsel have the opportunity to use
3 those witnesses who they believe to be experts who
4 fall, in my submission, within the category of expert
5 witness, in whom they have confidence. It may very
6 well be that Mr. Moran would have to find somebody that
7 he doesn't know if he had to find a forensic medical
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm sorry to interrupt.
10 If you read it carefully, he is coming to give evidence
11 on his opinion of what others have said. This is what
12 he is coming to do, and that is the expertise he is
13 giving to us. If it is one of a more common sense
14 deduction of what has happened, otherwise, everybody
15 can do that.
16 JUDGE JAN: He comes from Houston, this
18 MR. GREAVES: It looks like he's a gentleman
19 of Houston, born and bred.
20 JUDGE JAN: I'm sure this sort of forensic
21 person -- Houston is a very big city. You can
22 certainly get one from there who specialises in
23 forensic medicine.
24 MR. GREAVES: My submission is that he does
25 fall within the category that Your Honours have
1 identified as being expert witnesses.
2 JUDGE JAN: One may have some lurking doubt.
3 That is the only expert in this field. When we have an
4 expert about whom -- when we have a lurking doubt that
5 he is really not an expert. The first question the
6 Prosecution would ask in cross-examination is, "Have
7 you studied medicine?"
8 MR. GREAVES: Of course, it's a matter for
10 JUDGE JAN: And once he says "No," then some
11 sort of doubt is created in one's mind, whether he's
12 really competent to express opinion on matters which he
13 is not specialised.
14 MR. GREAVES: That goes to the issue of
15 weight. It doesn't go to the issue of whether or not
16 at the present time --
17 JUDGE JAN: Why produce a witness about whose
18 opinion there cannot be any lurking doubt?
19 MR. GREAVES: Well, there it is. The
20 application is made. In my submission, he, as we stand
21 here at the present time, falls properly within the
22 category of expert. I would respectfully invite Your
23 Honours to say that this is a man who can give proper
24 evidence to this court. If I can say so from my own
25 experience, he's far more experienced than any police
1 officer that I've come across in England, but then we
2 don't have quite so many murders.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, that's comparing
4 him with police officers. Who would then be accepted
5 as experts in this particular area, of whether certain
6 injury was sufficient to cause that or not? That is
7 the issue, whether the type of beating claimed would be
8 sufficient to kill the victim. Now, what he is coming
9 to tell us is that it would not be sufficient to result
10 in that. That's not somebody who is properly trained
11 and accredited for the purposes of ascertaining or
12 satisfying that that has occurred, not somebody who
13 could do that.
14 MR. GREAVES: My submission would be that
15 both men can do an equal job and do it from a different
16 perspective. The fact that there may be someone who
17 will do it better doesn't necessarily preclude my
18 learned friend calling someone in whom he has
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: A doctor is a better
21 person that is accepted as an expert.
22 JUDGE JAN: Think over your positions. Maybe
23 you can get a medical expert. Just think it over.
24 MR. GREAVES: Perhaps we can again return to
25 this matter as well.
1 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I just might
2 add one bit for the record, I do have to say that as a
3 criminal defence attorney, I have used him as an expert
4 in Stephen Jones case in 1992, and also he was quite
5 devastating when he testified for the Prosecution in
6 the capital murder case of Hilton Crawford in 1996.
7 JUDGE JAN: Was he testifying for the
8 Prosecution or the Defence?
9 MS. McMURREY: He was testifying for the
10 Prosecution against me. I was defending in 1996 and
11 his testimony in recreating the murder scene was quite
12 devastating, and it was trial by jury.
13 JUDGE JAN: A murder scene and a detective is
14 one thing, but tell us about the effect on a human body
15 of such a large number of blows with a baseball bat in
16 such a short period is really a medical question. I've
17 just suggested to Mr. Greaves to think it over. We're
18 not disposing of it at the moment.
19 MS. McMURREY: I do understand with the
20 indication that the court would find some doubt in this
21 expert --
22 JUDGE JAN: I don't say that we will; maybe.
23 There's a possibility.
24 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to state that in
25 my jurisdiction, he has been an expert witness many,
1 many times. If that's of any assistance, then fine.
2 If not, then it's clear.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, speaking for
4 myself, I concede that any jurisdiction can accept its
5 own definition of expertise and rely on that. But here
6 since the rationale of what he is coming to say is that
7 certain conduct can result in that or not in that.
8 That area of expertise has been preserved to medically
9 trained persons who we all accept can satisfy that and
10 not those who have not been authorised to do that.
11 What he's saying is what any intelligent
12 person can say, that if given so many blows can result
13 in -- we can all guess, but our own guesses might not
14 be as informed as that of a medically trained person.
15 This is the difference.
16 MS. McMURREY: I respect the decisions and
17 the comments of the court. Thank you.
18 JUDGE JAN: We have not yet given any
19 decision. We just asked him to reconsider.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To think about it.
21 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is all we
23 have. Now, this is all we have for this morning. We
24 will return at 2.30.
25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 10.42 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good afternoon, ladies
3 and gentlemen. This afternoon, I think we are at
4 the mercy of Ms. Residovic.
5 MR. GREAVES: I fear for two minutes, you get
6 to be at my mercy as well. If Your Honours give me two
7 moments just to mention one matter, please. Just
8 before lunch yesterday, I wasn't present. Your Honour
9 indicated that you would communicate a decision as to
10 when one particular motion would be heard. Could I
11 gently jog Your Honour's memory so that you tell us
12 when you want to deal with that matter on concerning
13 judicial independence.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I indicated yesterday,
15 in the first place, I would say the application was
16 wrong in the order in which it was made. If you looked
17 at it, I mentioned it, I said if you looked at Rule 15,
18 the application should be made to the presiding judge.
19 It is not an application intended for argument in open
20 court unless there are differences. So it's not a
21 question for which -- the application was not made to
22 the presiding judge, was it?
23 MR. GREAVES: It's expressed as being to
24 the Trial Chamber.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. So that's not what
1 Rule 15 said.
2 MR. GREAVES: Could I inquire because there
3 are two possible definitions of presiding judge. I
4 assume by the words "presiding judge", that is to Your
5 Honour as presiding judge of this Trial Chamber, rather
6 than at the present, the Tribunal as a whole.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The president is not a
8 presiding judge except he has a Trial Chamber in which
9 he presides. If you make an application to the
10 presiding judge, it is not an application to the Trial
12 MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour like us to
13 re-address it solely to Your Honour so that we can
14 actually get it going?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would have it in any
16 event dealt with it in accordance with the rules. I
17 definitely will deal with it, irrespective of the
18 fact that it was --
19 MR. GREAVES: As a matter of formality, would
20 you like us to resubmit it to you personally as opposed
21 to the Trial Chamber?
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, that's a better
24 MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. That's
25 all I have to say.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The rules must be obeyed
2 and that is why they are made.
3 MR. GREAVES: Sorry, for taking Your Honours'
4 time. Would you think it very rude of me if I
5 withdrew, I have other things to attend to this
6 afternoon outside the Trial Chamber.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I grant you leave, yes.
8 JUDGE JAN: So now you're showing mercy to
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Ms. Residovic. We
11 will start with your first witness. Would you kindly
12 invite the witness.
13 (The witness entered court)
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him take the oath
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can now take your
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: May I start, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.
24 EMIR DELALIC
25 EXAMINATION BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
1 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. Could you please state your full name to the
5 A. My name is Emir Delalic.
6 Q. Mr. Delalic, thank you for accepting the
7 invitation of the Defence and thank you for coming here
8 despite the fact that you had to travel overnight to
9 appear before this Tribunal as a witness. Before I
10 begin with my questions, let me draw your attention to
11 a technical matter. You and I speak the same language
12 and it would be very easy for us to proceed with these
13 questions and answers, however, you must bear in mind
14 that our conversation must enter into the transcript
15 and after I ask my question, after I have finished my
16 question, would you please listen to the interpretation
17 coming from the earphones that are on your desk. When
18 you hear that the interpretation has finished, then you
19 can answer my question. Have you understood me?
20 A. Yes, I have, thank you.
21 Q. Mr. Delalic, could you tell the court when
22 and where you were born?
23 A. I was born in Prozor on the 18th of March,
24 1962. Prozor is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. What is your educational background, what
1 schools did you go to and where did you complete your
2 education and what is your profession?
3 A. I completed elementary education in Prozor
4 and secondary school for mechanics, I completed in
5 Konjic and my profession is mechanic.
6 Q. Where did you live before the war?
7 A. Until 1990, I lived and I worked in Prozor,
8 as of 1990 I have been living in Austria, that is in
10 Q. Do you still live in Austria?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Mr. Delalic, tell me, is Zejnil Delalic
13 related to you?
14 A. Yes. That's my uncle.
15 Q. That's your father's brother, is that right?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Where were you when the war began on the 6th
18 of April, 1992?
19 A. In Austria.
20 Q. Did you become involved in Austria in the
21 humanitarian work for the defence forces of
23 A. Yes, like most other citizens of
25 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know whether your uncle,
1 at one point in time, before the war, whether he went
2 to Konjic and, if he did so, why?
3 A. Yes, I know that at the beginning of April or
4 maybe end of March, he went to attend the funeral of my
5 other uncle, together with my two other uncles from
6 Austria, and he stayed there.
7 Q. These two other uncles of yours, did they
8 come back to Vienna after the funeral?
9 A. Yes, they did.
10 Q. Do you know whether your Uncle Zejnil Delalic
11 stayed in Konjic in order to help the defence in a
13 A. Well, most probably that was the reason why
14 he stayed, yes.
15 Q. Since you were in Vienna and you told us that
16 two of your other uncles had come back to Vienna, could
17 you tell us whether they also participated in the
18 defence of the country?
19 A. Yes -- well, we all try to find ways to help
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We attempted to collect some money
21 or something else that might be useful for the
23 Q. Could you tell us the names of these two
24 uncles of yours, Zejnil's brothers who were in Vienna
25 at that time?
1 A. Sefik and Dzemal.
2 Q. Do you know whether Dzemal also took part,
3 participated in the defence forces and, if he did,
4 could you tell us in what way?
5 A. I know that he used to go to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina from time to time. He would usually
7 spend 20 days in Bosnia-Herzegovina and then he would
8 come back to Vienna and stay 20 days in Vienna and this
9 went on for a couple of months.
10 Q. What about Sefik, the other brother, did he
11 participate in the defence as well?
12 A. Yes, he did. At the beginning of June, he
13 went there and he stayed there until the end of July,
14 approximately. According to what he told me, he was
15 very active in the establishment of the military police
16 of the then territorial defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. Did Zejnil Delalic have a brother in Zagreb
18 and, if he did, what is his name?
19 A. Yes, he did have a brother in Zagreb, his
20 name was Vejsil Delalic.
21 Q. Did he also participate in collecting the
22 humanitarian aid, logistical aid for the defence
24 A. Yes, he did. During that period, the roads
25 to Bosnia and Herzegovina were blocked by Serbs and he
1 used his channels, his links to transfer certain
2 amounts of money or some other types of assistance,
3 like food or clothes and this is why we used him to
4 send the humanitarian aid there.
5 Q. Mr. Delalic, at one point in time during
6 1992, did you, yourself, go to Bosnia-Herzegovina and
7 did you also take part in the defence?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Before you tell me when and how, I would like
10 to ask you whether your closest family was living in
11 Konjic at that time and I am referring to your father,
12 your brothers and whether they were also members of the
13 defence forces at that time?
14 A. My father and my brother were in Konjic at
15 the time and they were members of the Territorial
16 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Q. When did you come to Bosnia and Herzegovina
18 and where -- in which area did you stay while you were
19 taking part in the defence?
20 A. After my Uncle Sefik returned, I went to
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina at the end of July, beginning of
22 August, and I went to Konjic and Prozor.
23 Q. Your visit to Konjic, was it in any way
24 related to the transport of the humanitarian assistance
25 that had been collected by our citizens in Austria?
1 A. Yes, we had some money and some other goods,
2 like cigarettes, a couple of radio stations, small
3 portable radio stations and some drinks for my Uncle
5 Q. Upon your arrival in Konjic, were you a
6 civilian or did you become a soldier at that time?
7 A. For a couple of days, maybe three or four
8 days, I could not find a uniform, so I was a civilian
9 at that time, yes.
10 Q. When you came to Konjic, where did you go
12 A. I first went to Zejnil's house hoping to find
13 him there, to give him the cigarettes and some wine,
14 but he was not there.
15 Q. So where did you stay?
16 A. I went to a farm that belongs to my aunt, a
17 couple of kilometres away from Sarajevo, where my
18 father was staying. A couple of kilometres towards
20 Q. You said that it happened at the beginning of
21 August, could you tell me whether you learned, at some
22 point in time, where Zejnil was and what function he
24 A. I learned the whereabouts of Zejnil from my
25 father and he told me he was appointed some kind of
1 commander of a TG-1. That was the abbreviation. And
2 he was at Igman and at the position not far from
4 Q. At that time, what was your father involved
5 with when you arrived in Konjic?
6 A. At that time, my father had a warehouse, he
7 was actually working at the Celebici barracks. This is
8 what I learned a couple of days later when we went
9 there together.
10 Q. You have just answered my following
11 question. I wanted to know whether during that time,
12 while you were in Konjic, whether you visited the
13 barracks in Celebici?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. Could you tell us now, who did you go with to
16 the barracks and how did you get there? Did you go
17 there by car, on foot or --
18 A. We went there by car. We took a white jeep
19 to get there.
20 Q. Did you have any specific work to attend to
21 in Celebici when you went there on that occasion?
22 A. Yes, one day after, or maybe two days after
23 my arrival, Irfan brought some batteries, empty
24 batteries and we wanted to go to Celebici to fill them
25 up because that was the only possibility to do that.
1 Apparently there was some kind of station for
2 recharging batteries.
3 Q. Was any one with you at that time in that
5 A. Well, there were three of us.
6 Q. Your father, yourself and?
7 A. And my brother.
8 Q. When you got to the barracks, was that your
9 first visit to the barrack, was that the first time
10 that you actually entered the barracks?
11 A. Yes, it was the first time that I went
13 Q. Could you tell us where that station for
14 recharging batteries was located?
15 A. It was located next to the command or some
16 kind of administration building. It was on the left
17 hand side.
18 Q. So did you manage to finish your work as soon
19 as you got there. That is, did you eventually recharge
20 these batteries?
21 A. We did, but not as soon as we got there.
22 Q. What happened in the meantime?
23 A. When we got to the gate, my father asked one
24 of the guards where the key was and how he could
25 recharge his batteries. And the guard told us to go to
1 Hazim Delic and he told us that he had the key because
2 he often had to recharge batteries on his vehicle and
3 on some other vehicles as well. So we stopped near the
4 station, but Hazim was not there at that moment. And
5 there was another guard standing there and my father
6 asked him about Hazim and the guard told us that he had
7 just gone to have lunch and that we could find him in
8 front of one of the hangars. So we continued to the
9 hangars and at the entrance of one of the hangars, I
10 saw Hazim Delic. And my father told me that this was
11 Hazim. He was standing, or maybe he was approaching
12 the entrance to the hangar and we parked not far for
13 him, maybe 5 or 6 metres away from him and we went
14 towards him and he had already entered the hangar and I
15 was very close to the threshold and at that moment, my
16 father called him. He said something like Hazim, we
17 need the key. And then all of a sudden we heard one or
18 two shots and we were surprised and we were
20 Q. At that moment when you heard the shot, at
21 that moment did you have the key that you were looking
23 A. No, not at that moment. I think that it
24 somehow happened at the same time. He was giving me
25 the key, he was throwing it at me and I realised that
1 the rifle fired, it was some kind of automatic rifle.
2 And when my father said that we needed the key, so he
3 was about to throw it to us, and I didn't quite see it,
4 but I heard maybe one or two shots in the air.
5 Q. And what happened after that?
6 A. Well, I ran away, I ran outside. I was
7 probably at the entrance, but I didn't know what was
8 happening, so I simply ran away. Hazim wanted to see
9 what it was all about and we went back to the vehicle
10 and we drove back to the station for recharging
12 Q. After that, while you were still at the
13 barracks, did you learn what had happened? What this
14 shot was all about?
15 A. Well, it took us awhile to recharge the
16 batteries and one of the guards said that someone had
17 been wounded. Apparently the bullet ricocheted from
18 the ceiling and that person who happened to be there,
19 at the ambulance, that he was injured and that he was
20 given, apparently, he was given first aid immediately.
21 Q. At that time, Mr. Delalic, were you wearing
23 A. No. I did not have an uniform at that time.
24 I had a pair of jeans on and a T-shirt.
25 Q. Since you said that you came to the door of
1 the hangar, were you able to see anybody inside?
2 A. No, I could only make out figures of persons,
3 but outside it was very sunny and it was dark inside.
4 It was very hot, but I could not make out anyone's
6 Q. But were you in a position where somebody
7 from inside the hangar could see you?
8 A. I believe that I could have been seen by a
9 number of people. Because I believed that I was either
10 at the threshold or I had stepped inside one or two
11 steps and that's where I was startled by this shot.
12 Q. After you had recharged your batteries and
13 learned that a person had been injured in there and was
14 given medical aid, did you leave immediately
15 afterwards, the Celebici barracks?
16 A. We first went to the warehouse where my
17 father worked, and I found a uniform and I found a
18 rifle and I took those.
19 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know Mr. Pavo Mucic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On that day, did you see Mr. Pavo Mucic at
22 the barracks?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Since you were present when the bullet was
25 discharged and later you heard from the guards what had
1 happened, can you tell in your own judgement, was this
2 sort of an accidental discharge?
3 A. In my opinion, I'm 100 per cent sure that
4 this was accidental because he was carrying the rifle
5 like this on his shoulder.
6 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you come back to the
7 Celebici barracks at any other point in time?
8 A. Yes. Later I came back at least five or six
9 additional times.
10 Q. Where did you go on each of these subsequent
12 A. I went to the warehouse where my father
14 Q. Did you, at any of these occasions when you
15 went to the Celebici barracks, see any of the persons
16 who were detained there?
17 A. Yes. Some five or six days after I came from
18 Vienna, I went in the same way, the jeep, because I had
19 trouble clearing checkpoints with my Austrian car with
20 Austrian registration plates; so I used the jeep
21 because I had no problems with that. On this occasion,
22 I went to pick up my father who had stayed at the
23 Celebici barracks longer than usual. So I went over
24 there and I helped him load up some crates and we
25 started out.
1 As we were going from the warehouse to the
2 gate, about some 20 to 30 metres away from me, I saw
3 two men who were filleting a sheep, skinning it, on
4 some railroad tracks. My father told me to slow down,
5 actually, to stop there, to pull over so that he could
6 greet this person. His name was Smajo, nickname
7 Kurecan. He was a butcher.
8 Kurecan came over slowly and greeted us in a
9 sort of local way, and my father asked him, "Why are
10 you doing this? What kind of feast are you preparing
11 there?" And he said that this was a sheep -- Smajo and
12 Kurecan usually had these sheep in the compound, but he
13 said that he had to kill this sheep. My father said,
14 "How can you give a knife to a Chetnik there, a
15 weapon?" And he said his name was, I think, Zeleni
16 which means green. He was an older man and he said
17 that he was a fellow butcher who had a butcher shop in
18 Bradina. They were good friends. They were
19 colleagues, that he had arranged with Guska for him to
20 be released and so that he would most probably already
21 be released.
22 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you know this person of whom
23 you're talking now before? I'm not talking about Smajo
24 but about this butcher from Bradina; did you know him
25 from before?
1 A. No, I did not know him, but Smajo said that
2 he was his colleague, that he was from Bradina and that
3 his name was Zeleni.
4 Q. Mr. Delalic, you just mentioned another name,
5 the name of Guska. Did you know at that time when this
6 conversation took place in 1992; did you know who Guska
8 A. Yes, I knew. I knew who Guska was. I knew
9 this man from before the war and he was a vet in the
10 town of Konjic. I knew him on a private basis because
11 he used to come to Prozor either on business or
12 privately. I know that during the elections in Konjic
13 town, he was elected or appointed, I should say, the
14 chief of the MUP station.
15 Q. Did you at that time or subsequently meet any
16 of the staff of people who worked in that
17 administration building in the barracks?
18 A. Yes, that is when I first saw Pavo. It was
19 in the compound. We were approaching the
20 administration building because my father needed to
21 bring back the key to the warehouse. This took no
22 longer than half a minute to a minute, and my father
23 walked out with Pavo and greeted him. I greeted him
24 too and I knew him from before. He said, "Here's
25 Pavo. See, now he works here. He no longer digs
1 manholes and trenches in Austria like before," and then
2 we greeted each other and I left.
3 Q. Thank you. You said several times now that
4 you drove a white jeep. Whose jeep was it and do you
5 know who drove it in Konjic?
6 A. The jeep belonged to my Uncle Zejnil. There
7 was a white jeep and a green jeep. I drove this jeep
8 while I was there. I don't know if I was there for a
9 month, a month and ten, twenty days. Also my father,
10 my brother, Irfan, just about anybody who needed it,
11 drove it.
12 Q. Did anyone else in your family have a white
14 A. Yes. My Uncle Sefik also had one.
15 Q. Did he have this jeep in Austria or in Konjic
16 while he was engaged in the defence efforts in Konjic?
17 A. He had bought that jeep in Austria but he
18 drove it down to Konjic and he kept it with him while
19 he was there.
20 Q. Mr. Delalic, you can probably answer the
21 following question: Is your family, the family
22 Delalic, a large family?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We know that one of your uncles died just
25 before the war, on the eve of war. How many brothers
1 were alive, including your Uncle Zejnil, in early 1992?
2 A. In 1992, there were five of them alive.
3 Q. Were all of them in Konjic in 1992?
4 A. All of them with exception of Vejsil who
5 worked and lived in Zagreb.
6 Q. Do you know the name Dzafer Delalic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who is that?
9 A. This was my oldest uncle who died, I believe,
10 in 1984 or '85.
11 Q. Mr. Delalic, if somebody said, in this court,
12 that they saw your Uncle Dzafer Delalic in the Celebici
13 compound, what would you say to that?
14 A. That this is not true and that he couldn't
15 have been there even in theory because he had died some
16 six or seven years before the outbreak of war.
17 Q. Mr. Delalic, did your uncles bear any family
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who looked the closest to whom?
21 A. Sefik and Zejnil looked alike the most.
22 Q. Are they all sort of strongly built?
23 A. Yes. Everybody is sort of built like myself
24 and my Uncle Zejnil.
25 Q. Did you ever go to the Celebici barracks with
1 your Uncle Zejnil?
2 A. No. He and I never went in there together.
3 Q. Did you ever see him during your stay in
5 A. I first saw him sometime in the latter part
6 of August before the swearing in for the TO members of
8 Q. In the beginning of your testimony, you said
9 that for awhile you were in Konjic town and then later
10 you went to Prozor. During this period, did you, in a
11 way, join the Territorial Defence of Prozor?
12 A. As soon as I arrived in Prozor, I reported to
13 the headquarters of the Territorial Defence. They knew
14 that I was not going to stay long in Prozor, but I
15 offered to do whatever I could.
16 Q. Did you know in 1992 the commander of the
17 staff of the Territorial Defence in Prozor on a
18 personal basis?
19 A. Yes, I did know him.
20 Q. Do you know his name? Do you know his first
21 and last name?
22 A. Yes. The commander of the staff of the
23 Territorial Defence in Prozor was Muharem Sabic. And
24 from other people from Prozor, I learned that before
25 the war he was a career military man, so he was very
1 welcome in the territorial staff, and it was also Smajo
2 Rujic who was also from Prozor.
3 Q. While you were in Prozor, could you learn
4 from the people in the headquarters what the relations
5 were between the Territorial Defence headquarters and
6 the HVO in Prozor?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, microphone.
8 JUDGE JAN: How is he a competent witness on
9 this point?
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Probably not for the overall
11 relations, but for the period of time when he was
12 there, he could know because he was both from Prozor
13 and he had contacts with the municipal staff. So I'm
14 limiting my questioning of him to that.
15 Q. You can say. If you know anything, go ahead,
17 A. In my judgement, the relations were good
18 because the army, that is, the TO of Prozor at that
19 time and the HVO together manned the front-lines towards
20 Kupres where the Chetniks were. As far as the military
21 cooperation is concerned, that was all right, but there
22 was tension around. This had something to do with the
23 school system, but I did not try to find out more about
24 that. But in terms of their holding together, the
25 front-lines at Kupres, that was fine.
1 Q. My next question now is redundant because I
2 wanted to ask you whether during your stay there, there
3 was any kind of armed conflict between these two
4 components of the army, and you already said that the
5 relations were good?
6 A. No, there was none.
7 Q. During your stay in Prozor, did you learn
8 that your Uncle Zejnil Delalic had some command
9 authority over the staff with which you were briefly
11 A. No, nobody mentioned him as their potential
13 Q. Do you know whether, at some point in time,
14 in 1992, the HVO attacked the forces of the Territorial
15 Defence in Prozor?
16 A. After I returned to Austria, sometime in
17 early September, I think it was around 10 September,
18 the situation was regular in Prozor. But about ten
19 days later, I was surprised to hear on Austrian
20 television that the units of the HVO had attacked the
21 town of Prozor. I was surprised and shocked to hear
22 that because my mother had remained there.
23 Q. Except for the news on Austrian television,
24 did you have any other information about your family
25 suffering certain damage during that attack?
1 A. I later learned through some people that my
2 house was one of the first ones to be hit by a shell
3 from a tank, and it was partially burned. The majority
4 of Muslim houses were Prozor were damaged, and about 95
5 per cent of the Muslim population was driven out, and a
6 part of the Muslim population managed to organise some
7 kind of resistance.
8 Q. Mr. Delalic, you told us about your
9 experiences. I would just like you to look at certain
10 documents offered by the Prosecution, and I would like
11 to show the witness certain documents. I think it's
12 Prosecution Exhibit 1. I think these are some
13 photographs of the Celebici compound. I'm being
14 alerted to the transcript; I'm not sure.
15 Let me ask you to look at the photographs,
16 and if you should see a photograph that you recognise,
17 please put that photograph on the ELMO and explain
18 anything that relates to that photograph, that is, if
19 any of the events which you related took place in that
21 A. I don't know about the gate itself. It may
22 not be that interesting. I can show in this photograph
23 where the batteries were recharged.
24 Q. Is there a number next to that photograph,
1 A. Yes, it is number 7.
2 Q. Could you please put that photograph on the
3 ELMO, and then you also have a pointer somewhere near
4 you, if you can use it to point to the structure or
5 room where these batteries were recharged?
6 A. (Indicating).
7 Q. Thank you. I would just like to, for the
8 transcript, say that the witness pointed to a structure
9 where the batteries were recharged.
10 A. Yes. I can show on photograph number 33;
11 this is the hangar where the accidental shooting
13 Q. Could you please put it on the ELMO and can
14 you point to where it is? Can the photograph please be
15 displayed on the ELMO? Yes, thank you. Can you now
16 please point?
17 A. (Indicating).
18 Q. Can you just tell me whether the door to the
19 hangar, when you were there; was the door open or not?
20 A. The door was open.
21 Q. Thank you. For the record, the witness has
22 identified this area. Is there another photograph in
23 this album, which is the Prosecutor's Exhibit, which
24 you can recognise as a place which you went to during
25 your visit to the barracks?
1 A. This is the photograph of the warehouse where
2 my father worked.
3 Q. What number is it?
4 A. Number 43. This is where my father worked
5 and this is where I came most frequently.
6 Q. Can you please look at the remainder of the
7 photographs? If you can recognise another place where
8 you went, please do that.
9 A. The bottom photograph may also be relevant.
10 It is around here somewhere that I saw these two men
11 who had slaughtered a sheep and who were skinning it.
12 Q. Thank you. I'm sorry, what was the last
13 photograph's number? I didn't hear you say the
15 A. This is photograph number 44, except you
16 cannot see very well. I see some railroad cars there
17 and I don't recall those at all. This is the road that
18 leads out of the compound, and this is where a little
19 concrete barrier was for stopping the railroad cars.
20 And that's where they had slaughtered that sheep.
21 Q. Thank you. One last question: Mr. Delalic,
22 testifying under oath, can you say with certainty on
23 that day when there was this accidental discharge from
24 the rifle of Mr. Delic --
25 JUDGE JAN: He has not said the rifle of
1 Mr. Delic at all --
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: I withdraw the question.
3 Q. You have already testified who was with you,
4 so I'm not going to ask the question again. The Trial
5 Chamber already knows what your answer was.
6 After your return to Austria, did you, along
7 with other members of your family who were there,
8 continue to assist in the defence of Bosnia in the ways
9 that you could?
10 A. Yes. In fact, we redoubled our efforts,
11 because after I returned to Bosnia, the HVO joined the
12 Chetniks in attacking the Muslim population.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mr. Delalic, I want to thank
14 you for responding to our call and testifying here
15 before this Tribunal.
16 Your Honours, this completes my examination
17 of this witness.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination of
19 this witness?
20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, no
21 cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Mucic. I would only
22 make one request, that Mr. Mucic be allowed to use the
23 restroom very quickly and he will be right back.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, he may. Any
25 questions? Any cross-examination?
1 MR. KARABDIC: No questions.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination --
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have a couple
4 of questions, thank you.
5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. MCMURREY:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delalic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. My name is Cynthia McMurrey and I represent
9 Esad Landzo. Can you stand from your seat and see the
10 Prosecution's model of Celebici in front of the witness
11 stand? Do you see the concrete bunker that you were
12 talking about that stopped the trains from going any
13 further at the point near the administration building
14 that you identified in the photographs? Can you point
15 to that? I don't know if it's possible for you to
16 point and identify this concrete block that you're
17 talking about.
18 A. (Indicating).
19 Q. Thank you. Is that where you said you saw,
20 Smajo the butcher, slaughtering the sheep?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm sorry. Could you rise one more time?
23 That concrete block that you see right there, that
24 concrete block is really about one-quarter the size of
25 the concrete block that is actually in Celebici, isn't
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose you're
3 confusing him. You mean the replica he sees here?
4 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry. I'll try to make
5 it clear.
6 Q. That replica that you see here, that little
7 piece that represents the concrete block, in actuality
8 in Celebici, that concrete block is about four times
9 larger than that, isn't it?
10 A. Yes, it's much larger. It's like this maybe.
11 Q. Thank you. You can sit down now. You said
12 that you saw one of the detainees with a knife with
13 Smajo the butcher, I believe his name was Zeleni, when
14 you were in the camp; is that right?
15 A. Yes. On that occasion, together with Smajo,
16 I saw one person whom I didn't know at the time, and he
17 introduced him as Zeleni. He said he was a colleague
18 from Bradina who also had a butcher shop in Bradina.
19 Q. Did you see any other detainees that you can
20 remember when you were on your trip to Celebici, on
21 your five or six trips in?
22 A. No, I only remember that man. As I was
23 walking up and down that road going to see my father,
24 most usually there would be no one there, maybe one or
25 two guards.
1 Q. When you saw this detainee, Zeleni, did he
2 look like he had been beaten?
3 A. No, he didn't look like that.
4 MS. McMURREY: I have no further questions.
5 Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions by the
8 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TURONE:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Delalic. My name is
11 Turone and I am going to ask you some questions for the
13 Q. Mr. Delalic, could you give us, please, the
14 names of your brother and your father?
15 A. Semir Delalic and my father's name is Zahir.
16 Q. What was their job or their position in
17 either Konjic or Prozor or anywhere in Bosnia?
18 A. You mean during the war?
19 Q. Yes, during the period we are talking about,
20 did your brother live in Bosnia or did he also live
22 A. At that time, my brother was in Bosnia and he
23 was a driver with the military police. It was at the
24 time when I went to Bosnia-Herzegovina. And my father
25 was working in one of the warehouses here, as I
1 indicated on the model.
2 Q. Yes, sure. And exactly, your father, Zahir,
3 which kind of warehouse had to take care of inside
5 A. It was a military warehouse where weapons
6 were stored, hand grenades, uniforms, military booths
7 and military equipment in general.
8 Q. And was your father, Zahir, part of
9 Territorial Defence, either in Konjic or in Prozor?
10 A. Yes, he was.
11 Q. Exactly what position did he have inside
12 Territorial Defence?
13 A. Well, what his title exactly was, I don't
14 know. He was simply there. He was in charge of
15 receiving and issuing equipment. Several times when I
16 was there, I saw lorries unloading or loading supplies
17 and he was in charge of putting it all down on a piece
18 of paper.
19 Q. Was he part of the Territorial Defence of
20 Konjic or Prozor?
21 A. At that time, he was a member of the Konjic
22 Territorial Defence because he was in Konjic at that
24 Q. And do you know who was his immediate
1 A. I don't know that.
2 Q. And what about your brother, you said he was
3 a driver for the military police, who was the immediate
4 superior of your brother Semir?
5 A. I don't know that either too. Most of the
6 time, we were together while I was there and I didn't
7 see, I mean I didn't think that he had a major role to
8 play there.
9 Q. Do you know --
10 JUDGE JAN: Was it the MUP or?
11 THE WITNESS: No, no, he was a member of the
12 military police, not the MUP.
13 MR. TURONE:
14 Q. When you say "military police", you mean
15 military police of HVO or TO?
16 A. The TO military police because, at that time,
17 there were already two different military polices
18 because there were actually two armies. And at that
19 time they were on the same side.
20 Q. Yes, but your brother was a driver for the TO
21 military police. And again, TO Konjic or TO Prozor?
22 A. Konjic. May I just add something? When I
23 arrived in Prozor, the situation was calm and the town
24 itself wouldn't have been exposed to any kind of
25 problems if there hadn't been for the conflict between
1 the HVO and Muslims later on. There were lines towards
2 Kupres that were being held at that time and there was
3 some shelling and this would have been all if it hadn't
4 been for the conflict with the Croats.
5 JUDGE JAN: Unnecessary.
6 THE WITNESS: And most probably that was the
7 reason why he came back to Konjic because nothing was
8 actually happening in Prozor.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know whether you
10 really have any questions for him for all that he has
11 testified here? Do you really have any questions for
13 MR. TURONE: Well, Your Honour, I think I
14 might have some questions for this witness. Why not?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, let's hear you.
16 MR. TURONE:
17 Q. May I ask that the witness be shown the --
18 this picture, please. It's exhibit -- Defence Exhibit
19 D-13 A-1. Yes, this is a copy, the registrar might
20 have the original, please.
21 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?
22 MR. TURONE: It was tendered by Ms.
24 Q. In the meantime -- okay, this picture. Could
25 you please see this picture and see whether you
1 recognise yourself in this picture?
2 A. Yes, that's me.
3 Q. And that's all with this picture, thank you.
4 Could you tell us, who is Irfan? You have been talking
5 about somebody by the name of Irfan. Who is that?
6 A. Irfan married a cousin of mine and he was a
7 driver and according to someone, he was also a
8 bodyguard. Zejnil Delalic, well, he was a bodyguard, I
9 don't know, but he definitely was a driver.
10 Q. Okay, you say that you arrived in Bosnia
11 after your Uncle Sefik, end of July, how long did you
12 remain in Bosnia entirely, in all?
13 A. Maybe a month and a half.
14 JUDGE JAN: He's already said that.
15 MR. TURONE:
16 Q. How long did you stay in Konjic and how long
17 did you stay in Prozor inside the one month and a half,
19 A. I think that I stayed longer in Konjic. And
20 since this is not very far, I mean the distance is 40
21 or 50 kilometres, it was possible for me to be both in
22 Konjic and Prozor in one single day.
23 Q. And when you arrived, you said that for two
24 or three days you remained without a uniform and you
25 were a civilian. Then, the first time you went to
1 Celebici, you received a uniform and the rifle, taking
2 them from the warehouse of your father, is that
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. At that time, when you received this uniform
6 and rifle, were you a member of TO already?
7 A. Well, I don't know what you mean. I did not
8 belong to Konjic or Prozor at the time, I simply put on
9 an uniform and I made myself at their disposal. I made
10 myself available to them, both to Prozor and Konjic.
11 Q. So, as a matter of fact, do you mean that you
12 were considered a member of the TO by the headquarters
13 of the TO, both in Konjic and Prozor?
14 A. Could you please repeat the question?
15 Q. Yes. You became a soldier when you received
16 a uniform --
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, how
18 can he know what other people think of him.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it might be
20 easier to explain to the witness. You said you are
21 commuting between Prozor and Konjic at all times. Now,
22 when you became a soldier, when you got the uniform and
23 you wore them, you were then a soldier, did you belong
24 to Konjic or to Prozor, which of the groups did you
25 belong to?
1 THE WITNESS: I belonged to my hometown, to
3 MR. TURONE: Did you have any relationship
4 also with the TO headquarters in Konjic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you simply received a uniform from the
7 warehouse of your father, which was belonging to the TO
8 headquarters of Konjic, is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know who was your superior?
11 A. While I was there, I didn't take any kind of
12 oath to any of the staff. Therefore, when I went to
13 Prozor, I simply took something that my father wanted
14 to send to the staff. In Prozor, this was usually a
15 certain amount of ammunition or things like that. I
16 would often bring a piece of paper, so that they can
17 receive it in an official manner at the headquarters.
18 Q. But who gave you instructions then when you
19 were in Konjic?
20 A. What kind of instructions do you have in
22 Q. Well, any instructions of orders being, since
23 you were in any case a soldier who was the person in
24 charge of and entitled to giving you any kind of
25 instruction or order.
1 A. I just said that I hadn't taken any oath to
2 any of the headquarters, Konjic or Prozor alike, so I
3 didn't have a commander. My arrival in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina was simply to help my people. Any
5 kind of help was useful and I had to -- at that point,
6 I had to take some supplies to the headquarters in
8 Q. Okay, I am not going to press it any more.
9 When you said something about Mr. Mucic and the
10 presence of Mr. Mucic in Celebici, what was the
11 position of Mr. Mucic in Celebici, do you know?
12 A. No, I don't know that. For me, he was like
13 other guards. For example, a person who was wearing a
14 uniform with no particular ranks or insignia.
15 Q. And do you know what was the position of Mr.
16 Delic there in Celebici?
17 A. No, I don't know. To me he looked like a
18 guard. Every time I went there, every time I saw him
19 there, he had a rifle in his hand and that was it.
20 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you know names of any other
21 guards who were in Celebici?
22 A. No. I would never stay very long with the
23 guards. When they saw a white jeep, my white jeep,
24 they would open the gate because they knew that I was
25 going to the warehouse which had nothing to do with the
1 people who were detained there.
2 Q. How many times did you see Zejnil Delalic
3 during the time of your stay in Konjic and Prozor?
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Asked and answered, Your
6 MR. TURONE:
7 Q. I would like to know where it was and when
8 you saw your Uncle Zejnil in that month and a half you
9 were either in Konjic or Prozor?
10 A. I saw him the night before the oath taking,
11 which, as I heard, was supposed to take place within
12 the Celebici barracks. He had come from Igman on that
13 occasion and that was when I saw him. It was in the
14 second half of August.
15 Q. You stated that there is a big family
16 resemblance among you, of members of the family. May I
17 ask that the witness be also shown Defence Exhibits
18 13-A, B -- A, B and D-1, please. Can you please put
19 them on the ELMO, please.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember he qualified
21 it by saying, especially their large size, their huge
23 MR. TURONE:
24 Q. Can you put them one by one there on the
25 ELMO, please. Do you recognise anybody in this picture
1 on the ELMO?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who is this man?
4 A. That's my Uncle Sefik.
5 Q. All right. Could you please put on the ELMO
6 another of these photos.
7 JUDGE JAN: But your own witness has said a
8 strong family resemblance, if you remember plainly.
9 Your own witness has said, the strong family
11 MR. TURONE: If Your Honours direct me not to
12 go into this issue, I will follow your directions, Your
14 JUDGE JAN: It is your own evidence.
15 MR. TURONE: But the Prosecution is following
16 its own line of questions because the strategy of
17 Prosecution considers this of some importance.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To what you have given
19 in evidence. What your witnesses have said is a strong
20 family resemblance in such a manner that you may not
21 distinguish it from the accused.
22 MR. TURONE: Does Your Honour mean that --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Your witnesses have so
24 said in their testimony. If you want to contradict
25 that, you can go ahead.
1 MR. TURONE: There might be some other reason
2 why the Prosecution intends to do that.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can do that.
4 MR. TURONE:
5 Q. So this is D-13 A-1, do you recognise the
6 person in this picture, Mr. Delalic?
7 A. Yes, I do.
8 Q. Can you give us the name of this person?
9 A. Dzemal Delalic, my other uncle.
10 Q. Dzemal Delalic. And so, would you please put
11 on the ELMO, the last picture, please.
12 Q. This is D-13 B-1. Can you say who are the
13 persons who appear in this picture, Mr. Delalic?
14 A. Here, in the middle, this is my brother, and
15 these two young men are from Prozor.
16 Q. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Delalic.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Since the witness has
18 identified these photographs, I suggest that they be
19 admitted into evidence.
20 MR. TURONE: No objection.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I will admit them.
22 MR. TURONE:
23 Q. Mr. Delalic, when you went to Celebici the
24 first time and you saw Mr. Delic there, did your father
25 and brother or any of them get also into the hangar,
1 inside the hangar?
2 A. No, I was the only one who was actually
3 inside the hangar, but only at the door.
4 Q. And you heard one or two shots, you said, is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You heard them coming from inside the hangar,
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you said in direct that there were shots
11 in the air, how do you know they were shots in the
13 A. I know because that was the way Hazim was
14 holding the rifle. It pointed towards the air and he
15 was the only one who had the rifle there.
16 Q. Was that an automatic rifle as far as you
18 A. Yes, it was an automatic rifle. He was
19 holding it like this with one hand.
20 Q. And how far inside the hangar was Delic when
21 the shot took place, when the shot or the shots took
23 A. You mean how far from myself? From where I
25 Q. I mean how far inside. How far from the
1 entrance door he was inside the hangar.
2 A. Well, perhaps, 2 metres, 2 1/2.
3 Q. And besides Mr. Delic and you for just a
4 limited space, was anybody else, had anybody else
5 entered the hangar together with Mr. Delic when this
6 incident took place?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And you said that a person inside the hangar
9 got injured, did you happen to see this person?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And how did you know that this person got
13 A. This is what I heard later on from the guards
14 as we were recharging batteries. One of the guards
15 told us that apparently the bullet had ricocheted from
16 the ceiling and wounded one of the prisoners and he was
17 immediately given first aid and taken to the
19 Q. Okay, thank you. Let's go to the time when
20 you arrived to Bosnia from Austria, end of July or
21 beginning of August. Did you drive to Bosnia then?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Which kind of a vehicle?
24 A. At that time I had an American vehicle, a
25 Chrysler, with Vienna license plates.
1 Q. Yes, and how did you get through the
2 checkpoints with that car?
3 A. Well, I had to cross Croatia, that was the
4 only way to reach Bosnia-Herzegovina, so I came from
5 the coast. I followed the road along the coast, all
6 the way to Ploca and from Ploca I went in the direction
7 of Prozor and Konjic and there were no problems at that
8 time. This area was controlled by Croats, of course,
9 and then by the HVO from Ploca to Jablanica and from
10 Jablanica on, it was also the area controlled by the
11 Territorial Defence, I mean both by the Territorial
12 Defence and the HVO. And during that period, there was
13 no problems for Croats and Muslims to move around.
14 Q. So you mean you didn't need any
15 authorisation, or did you have any authorisation?
16 A. Authorisation for what?
17 Q. To travel with your car along the roads
18 you've just mentioned.
19 A. No, there was no need to have such
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Because the war was somewhere else.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
24 now rise and reassemble at 4.30.
25 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
2 MS. McMURREY: I ask for permission for Ms.
3 Boler not to be in the courtroom for the rest of the
4 afternoon. Thank you.
5 (The witness entered court)
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly inform the
7 witness he's still under oath.
8 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that
9 you're still under oath.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr.
12 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Delalic, do you agree with me that this
14 man Irfan was the driver of your Uncle Zejnil; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Delalic, did you ever work with your
18 Uncle Zejnil in Vienna in the Inda-Bau company or in
19 the Inda-Mas company?
20 A. No, I worked with my Uncle Sefik.
21 Q. And which kind of work did you do?
22 A. Uncle Sefik had a construction company, also
23 had a restaurant, so I was involved in both of his
25 Q. And you didn't visit or help in any way your
1 Uncle Zejnil in his business; is that correct?
2 A. No.
3 MR. TURONE: This concludes my
4 cross-examination, Your Honour. Thank you. Thank you
5 Mr. Delalic.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
9 your assistance. You are discharged now.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next
12 witness, please?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my apologies,
14 the next witness is present here; however, you know
15 that these witnesses have travelled all night. He is
16 not fully prepared. He is experiencing a little bit of
17 a problem; however, if you want, we could start now
18 rather than tomorrow at ten.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why you decided what to
20 do and when to do it? We have indicated very clearly
21 you have to call your witnesses if they are present.
22 That is all the Trial Chamber is interested in. If you
23 do not want to call them because you choose not to, you
24 can tell the Trial Chamber that.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I just wanted to
1 point to a condition that the witness is in. He is
2 present here outside the courtroom. I was just trying
3 to point out that his health condition is not 100 per
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Already we should have
7 been having your witnesses since the week. You made us
8 lose part of Tuesday, and we did not use yesterday
9 usefully as much as we could, and you are trying to
10 introduce other difficulties. I don't think this is
11 the right thing for counsel to do. Counsel should try
12 to be of assistance to the Trial Chamber, and this is
13 the part of integrity which we ascribe to counsel, so
14 call your witness --
15 JUDGE JAN: You can call him, and if he feels
16 unwell, then we'll think it over.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I call Ismet
18 Ciso, and I decline to accept your last comments
19 because we are trying to conform with the instructions
20 of the court.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)
22 ... defence sufficiently, and you will find that the
23 witnesses you have tendered to us are quite different
24 from the ones you are now calling. The last witness
25 and this one were not on your list, but we don't worry,
1 we still take them.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: These witnesses are from our
3 enlarged list. We have called them this week because
4 we wanted to reduce the amount of testimony of many
5 witnesses and not to have any questions duplicated.
6 (The witness entered court)
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please swear the
9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
10 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take your seat, please.
13 JUDGE JAN: He appears to be quite cheerful.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until the questions
15 tumble in.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I believe that the witness
17 knows best how he feels. I hope that he will answer
18 the questions in a way that he has just pledged to do
19 and that we will get to the truth of this matter.
20 ISMET CISO
21 EXAMINATION BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
22 Q. Sir, will you please introduce yourself by
23 stating your full first and last names?
24 A. My name is Ismet Ciso.
25 Q. Mr. Ciso, thank you for responding to the
1 request of the Defence to come here and for travelling
3 Before we start, let me just give you
4 technical advice. You and I speak the same language
5 and you would be in a position to very quickly answer
6 my questions; however, our conversation needs to be
7 interpreted and taken down on the transcript, and
8 everybody present here in the courtroom needs to be
9 able to follow us. So, please, when I ask you a
10 question, will you please listen to the interpretation
11 coming from the headset on your desk and only then
12 respond to my question; did you understand what I just
13 said, sir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ciso, could you please tell
16 us when and where were you born?
17 A. I was born on 27 August, 1956 in Jablanica,
18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 Q. What is your education and where did you
20 receive it?
21 A. I completed my primary school in Konjic and
22 the police academy in Sarajevo in 1974, and the course
23 for administration in Sarajevo, and I have become a
25 Q. What was your profession before the war?
1 A. I was a traffic policeman in the police
2 station in Konjic.
3 Q. Where did you live before the war?
4 A. I lived in Konjic, in Maksim Kujundzic
5 Street, number 95B.
6 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you at any point in time leave
7 Konjic before the war and where did you live after
9 A. I left Konjic on the very eve of war and I
10 moved -- in fact, I went to Vienna in Austria for
11 temporary work.
12 Q. Where do you live now, Mr. Ciso?
13 A. I currently live in Vienna, Austria with my
15 Q. Mr. Ciso, do you know Mr. Delalic and since
16 when have you known him?
17 A. I have known Mr. Zejnil Delalic for about ten
18 years, some ten years.
19 Q. What kind of acquaintance is it?
20 A. It is an acquaintanceship. I was a traffic
21 policeman. He would come to visit his home town. I
22 would see him once or twice a year in restaurants, in
23 streets, in different places.
24 Q. After you came to Austria, did you learn what
25 Mr. Delalic was engaged in?
1 A. There is an age gap between myself and
2 Mr. Zejnil Delalic; however, I was very close with his
3 brothers Sefik and Dzemal, so it is from them that I
4 learned that Zejnil was in Germany, that occasionally
5 he came to Vienna. I knew for awhile that he has
6 worked abroad.
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge about where
8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was during 1992?
9 A. As I just stated, I was a good friend with
10 some of the members of the family. I also heard that
11 they had a death in the family, that I believe his
12 brother died in April or sometime. They all went to
13 Ostrozac where this deceased member of the family was
15 Q. Do you know whether Zejnil Delalic returned
16 to Vienna or Munich after this burial?
17 A. Zejnil did not go back immediately, but Sefik
18 and Dzemal did come back immediately and they told me
19 that Zejnil had stayed behind. The war had already
20 started and Zejnil wanted to stay behind and get
21 involved in the defence of the country.
22 Q. Since you came to Austria before the
23 beginning of the war, that is, before April 1992 when
24 the war broke out, did the refugees from Bosnia start
25 coming to Austria during that period?
1 A. Yes, it is a well-attested fact that there
2 were a number of refugees that started streaming in
3 from different parts of Bosnia, including my hometown
4 and the surrounding area.
5 Q. Did you yourself become involved in the
6 organisation and collection of aid for your hometown
7 and for the defence forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
8 A. We followed these dramatic events and
9 suffering of our people, so we became active and
10 started collecting assistance so that we did have quite
11 a bit of information regarding the suffering, the lack
12 of medical supplies, food and clothing. And Dzemal,
13 Zejnil's brother, told me that Zejnil sent a number of
14 appeals to help as much as we could to provide food,
15 clothing, footwear and other kinds of supplies.
16 Q. Mr. Ciso, can you tell me how was this aid
17 usually sent to Konjic?
18 A. We were a people who did not have a great
19 tradition of living abroad, so we did not have any
20 clubs. What we did is: We organised an association of
21 Bosnian citizens in Austria called the SDA, and we were
22 able, through this organisation, to collect a fair
23 amount of this humanitarian-type aid, including food,
24 clothing, footwear, medication, and we used different
25 channels. We would collect it in Vienna and then we
1 would transport it to Zagreb where there was a centre
2 of sorts. This is where these goods would be taken
3 over by Zejnil's brother, Vejsil, and he had his own
4 channels by which he distributed it to the final
6 Q. Mr. Ciso, you just mentioned an association
7 of Bosnians in Vienna. My question to you is were you
8 a member of this association?
9 A. Yes, I have been a member of this association
10 practically since the day it was founded and I was
11 greatly concerned that we should have an association
12 which was founded according to the laws of Austria.
13 This is an association of citizens of Bosnia and its
14 aim is cultural and sports exchange.
15 Q. Thank you. I would like now to show the
16 witness Prosecution Exhibit P-99. I think it's 7/2 and
17 I have prepared a sufficient number of copies for the
19 Mr. Ciso, before I ask you the question
20 relating to this document, let me just ask you another
21 thing: You said that Mr. Zejnil Delalic stayed behind
22 after the burial of his brother, he stayed in Konjic.
23 Can you tell me whether, after that, he came to Vienna
24 in April or May?
25 A. No, he never came to Vienna in the short
1 period after the burial of his brother.
2 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at this
3 booklet. Is this the booklet issued by these
4 associations, this Bosnian cultural circle?
5 A. Yes, it is. It is what has been -- it is a
6 document that has been adopted through the statute of
7 this association.
8 Q. You just told the Tribunal that you were one
9 of the first or maybe the founding members of this
10 association. Do you have a similar membership card
11 like the one that we have produced here?
12 A. Yes, an identical one.
13 Q. Mr. Ciso, we have Mr. Delalic's membership
14 document here. It is dated 4 May, 1992. Can you tell
15 me how Mr. Delalic became a member of this association?
16 A. Yes, I know very well. His brother --
17 Q. I would just like to ask you to wait with
18 your answer until the interpretation is complete, thank
20 A. Yes. Dzemal, Zejnil's brother, and myself,
21 when we took our memberships, we then took a membership
22 out for Zejnil as well, and I took a membership out for
23 my wife at the time as well because we were very
24 concerned that we get as many members as possible, both
25 in order to raise enough money through membership fees
1 and to involve as many people as possible. So this
2 membership was issued to Zejnil Delalic on his request
3 through his brother Dzemal and myself.
4 Q. Very well. We are finished with this
5 document. It can be returned now. Thank you.
6 Mr. Ciso, can you tell me whether this
7 association, SDA Vienna; did it have its own statute?
8 A. Yes. The association of the Austrian SDA has
9 its own statute which has been submitted to the
10 authorities of the republic of Austria and they issued
11 the permission for this association to be established
12 under this name, the SDA of Austria.
13 Q. Can I now please ask for assistance in
14 showing the witness D-136 and D-35?
15 MS. McHENRY: Excuse me for interrupting, can
16 you repeat the number or if there are extra copies?
17 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D-136, D-35.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC:
19 Q. I would like the witness to be shown, yes,
20 35, but 36 as well. Sir, this first document that you
21 just received, is this a certificate that was issued in
22 Vienna on the 10th September 1996?
23 A. Yes, this is the certificate of our
24 association, with our stamp, our heading and the
25 signature of our president, Mr. Tofic Velgic (phoen).
1 Q. Is it true that the certificate bears the
2 title, "Association of Bosnia Cultural Association" and
3 that is a non-political association?
4 A. There is no question about it. This
5 association was registered as a Muslim cultural
6 association and there's no way that such an association
7 could function, could operate in Austria in accordance
8 with their regulations if it were political in
9 character. It's a simple association of citizens of
10 the Republic of Bosnia in Austria.
11 Q. Mr. Ciso, can also confirm the voracity of
12 the contents of the certificate?
13 A. Yes, this is 100% true and, as I said,
14 there's no question about it.
15 Q. Thank you very much. This document may now
16 be returned. Could you now, please, have a look at the
17 other document that has been shown to you? I'm sorry,
18 the other document, is that a statute of the
20 A. Yes, this is the statute of the association,
21 which was recognised by the authorities of the republic
22 of Austria, authorities that were in charge of
23 registering such associations.
24 Q. Did you see this statute before as a member
25 of the association?
1 A. It was after I had read the statute that I
2 decided to join the association, otherwise I would
3 never become its member. There's no way I could join
4 association without knowing what its purpose -- what
5 its objective is.
6 Q. Thank you very much, this document may now be
7 returned. Mr. Ciso, could you now tell us whether in
8 1992, after the war had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 did you ever go to Konjic?
10 A. Yes, I was fortunate enough to go to Konjic
11 on several occasions throughout 1992.
12 Q. Could you be more specific, when exactly did
13 you go to Konjic in 1992?
14 A. The first time I went to Konjic in 1992, it
15 was a very brief visit which took place in mid-August.
16 At that time I was free to leave my work and I had an
17 opportunity to visit my family down there and I was
18 able to bring them things they needed at the time.
19 Q. And could you remember when did you go to
20 Konjic after that?
21 A. I believe it was in October or November, I
22 couldn't be more specific than that. But in one of
23 these two months that, for sure.
24 Q. During your visits to Konjic in 1992, did you
25 ever meet with Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
1 A. It is true that when I went to Konjic I had
2 taken certain things with Mr. Delalic and things for
3 others citizens of Konjic, members of families I was
4 acquainted with, but on that occasion I didn't meet
5 with Mr. Delalic in Konjic.
6 Q. Mr. Ciso, in 1992, did you ever see Mr.
7 Zejnil Delalic?
8 A. In 1992, I saw Mr. Zejnil Delalic after he
9 had returned from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in
10 Vienna. It was in the premises of the Inda-Bau
12 Q. What was the reason of your meeting with him
13 at that point?
14 A. Well, it was simply because I had learned
15 that Zejnil Delalic had arrived and because the
16 situation at that time was such that we had no contacts
17 whatsoever with our families and with our hometown.
18 When we learned that Zejnil Delalic had arrived, we
19 wanted to see him, we wanted to hear the story from our
20 town. We wanted to learn what was happening with the
21 members of our families, our friends and with our
22 hometown in general.
23 Q. In these discussions, what did Zejnil Delalic
24 say about his arrival, did he say that he had come back
25 for good or did he express his intention to go back to
2 A. I know that he said that he had come only for
3 a brief period of time, that he had some obligations to
4 attend to and that he was planning to go back to
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina immediately. He said he belonged
6 there and he also said that he wanted to help as much
7 as possible, so that his country can be liberated.
8 Q. Since you were in Vienna at the time and
9 since you were close with his brothers, do you know
10 whether Zejnil Delalic went back to
12 A. I learned from Dzemal that after Zejnil
13 arrived, his brother was arrested in Konjic, along with
14 some other colleagues or his brother's colleagues and
15 that there was a very severe negative media campaign
16 against Zejnil at the time, against his going back to
17 Austria. And it was because of these circumstances
18 that he didn't go back.
19 Q. Did you have an occasion to read articles
20 that were published about Zejnil and his departure?
21 A. The only media that could cover that story
22 were Croatian media, Croatian dailies and weeklies
23 which we could buy in Austria. And Zejnil's brother,
24 Vejsil used to send us some newspapers from Zagreb
25 which we couldn't get in Austria. And they were simply
1 aghast about what was happening, what was being written
2 about him. We were shocked at lies that were being
3 told about Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
4 Q. Mr. Ciso, could you remember any of these
5 articles, any of these insinuations against Mr. Zejnil
7 A. The most is striking ones that he was a Serb
8 spy. That he was working for the Costa (phoen) former
9 intelligence service in Yugoslavia. That he had been
10 given assignment in Sarajevo that he was supposed to
11 take part in the lifting of the blockade of Sarajevo,
12 but he didn't want to do that because he was actually
13 working with Serbs and things like that.
14 Q. In these articles, the articles that you
15 could read at the time in 1992 or the beginning of
16 1993, did you see any article, any information about
17 the alleged responsibility of Zejnil Delalic for the
18 crimes committed against Serbs, or anything in
19 connection with Celebici?
20 A. No, I heard stories and I read articles about
21 his being a collaborator with Serbs. And also stories
22 that he had released a great number of Serbs from
23 prison and that he was actually working with them and
24 for them.
25 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you personally believe these
1 stories and articles and do you have any information as
2 to whether these articles caused certain negative,
3 brought about certain negative consequences?
4 A. Yes, as I told you, we were really shocked by
5 what was being written about him, all the slanders and
6 lies, simply because, not only did I know Zejnil and
7 his work and his fight for the Republic of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but also because the whole family,
9 my whole family knew that, my friends, my fellow
10 citizens and I don't think that people believed in
11 these stories.
12 Q. Yes, you can finish the sentence.
13 A. But I think it was Mr. Zejnil Delalic who
14 suffered the worst consequences of this media campaign
15 because it is very difficult to fight the media.
16 Q. As a friend of the family, do you know what
17 the reaction of Mr. Zejnil Delalic's family was? How
18 did his brothers and his sister react?
19 A. I already stated that I was very close both
20 with Sefik and Dzemal, Dzemal was dismayed by this
21 attack in the media. At the time Zejnil was not there,
22 he was in Munich. He told me that Zejnil was shocked
23 by him, that he was very depressed by that. He was
24 emotionally shaken by it all. And Dzemal is a citizen
25 of the Republic of Croatia. He has a house on the
1 coast and he said that his family had been threatened,
2 that they had threatened to block his house and they
3 felt very insecure there.
4 Q. Mr. Ciso, this Tribunal has been, for a while
5 now, involved in the events that have been going on in
6 Bosnia in 1992, can you tell me, if somebody is accused
7 of being a Chetnik or a collaborator with the secret
8 services of the former Yugoslavia, would such an
9 accusation be a threat also to his family and to
11 A. The very fact that we were Bosniaks that we
12 were from Konjic made us not feel very secure and I can
13 only imagine for Mr. Delalic, who had been accused of
14 fleeing the town in a Chetnik helicopter and all that,
15 I can only imagine how his family must have felt like.
16 Q. Mr. Ciso, were you an eyewitness -- did you
17 personally know of any initiatives to deny these
19 A. Dzemal and I talked frequently about ways to
20 respond to all of this, how to respond to the family
21 and how to friends and acquaintances. Dzemal said that
22 maybe he should write to newspapers, those who had
23 published these lies, to deny them. But we believed
24 that this was media machinery of sorts and so we
25 thought that we should find somebody who was
1 professional in this, a journalist or a reporter,
2 somebody who would help us prepare a successful denial
3 of these insinuations and accusations.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
6 JUDGE JAN: Is it relevant that what steps
7 were taken to disabuse that impression? We don't have
8 to go into that. I am sure something must have been
9 done by the family to counteract. We're not
10 interested, really.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What does this support
12 in terms of defending the obligations against? It
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Some documents produced by
15 the efforts of the family have been presented to this
16 Trial Chamber and the Prosecution has offered them as
17 truthful statements. This witness has helped author
18 some of these documents.
19 JUDGE JAN: He indicated that there were news
20 items appearing in Croatian press painting Mr. Delalic
21 as a Serb agent. It's nobody's case he was a Serb
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but
24 perhaps this witness can speak to some of the evidence
25 presented by the Prosecution, for instance, the
1 videotape of war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Maybe he
2 can help us understand how and who put it together,
3 which is why we have called this witness and an
4 additional witness who have helped put together this
5 videotape. I believe that this is relevant because
6 these documents have been talked about quite a bit and
7 it is one of the important pieces of evidence in the
8 Prosecution case.
9 JUDGE JAN: You're probably thinking of
10 expert 116, that videotape.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Ciso, can you please tell me whether you
13 and Dzemal were in contact with Zejnil's brother in
14 Zagreb and whether you took certain steps to deny these
15 propaganda allegations?
16 A. Yes, Dzemal was constantly in touch with his
17 brother who also tried on his own to contact different
18 media outlets in Zagreb in an attempt to deny the
19 charges. He was unsuccessful, though, but he managed
20 to find a journalist from Bosnia-Herzegovina to whom he
21 laid out the situation and who agreed to help to
22 uncover the truth behind this story, and his name was
23 Ekrem Melic.
24 Q. Can you please tell the court what your role
25 was in putting together this material that would
1 counter the propaganda? Did you ever meet with this
2 journalist and where?
3 A. Yes. My role was such that -- that is, after
4 Vejsil found a journalist who agreed to work with us on
5 this story, I went to Zagreb to Vejsil, and I met the
6 journalist. His name is Melic. I explained the
7 situation such as it was, even though he already knew
8 of quite a few of these articles and these slanders. I
9 also told him that there were some videotapes which had
10 been made in Konjic itself in Bosnia and that this
11 material could be used to successfully counter this
12 negative media coverage about Mr. Delalic.
13 Q. In a meeting you had with Mr. Melic in
14 Zagreb, was Mr. Vejsil also there?
15 A. Yes, I already mentioned that the three of us
16 met, Ekrem Melic, Vejsil Delalic and myself.
17 Q. How did the journalist respond to your
19 A. The journalist probably wanted to get
20 involved in this story based on his strong interest in
21 it. He asked what kind of material there was there in
22 existence. I told him we had about 20 to 30 videotapes
23 that he should review and that would help him
24 understand the full truth. So I suggested that he use
25 these videotapes in order to put together a successful
1 denial of allegations.
2 Q. After the initial conversation with the
3 journalist, Melic, did you start to gather material
4 relating to the events of 1992 in Konjic?
5 A. Yes. Right there I agreed to give Mr. Melic
6 20 to 30 videotapes which were in Dzemal's possession
7 because he himself had been in Konjic and he was
8 involved in certain activities there. So I suggested
9 that he should help him pick the things that would be
10 the most significant.
11 Q. Was there a time when you showed these
12 videotapes to Mr. Melic?
13 A. Yes. Dzemal and I brought these videotapes
14 some ten days later. We brought them to Zagreb. At
15 first, Dzemal could not go to Zagreb with me, and then
16 we brought 20 to 30 cassettes to Mr. Melic so that he
17 could review them and become acquainted with this
19 Q. Did the journalist review these cassettes
20 together with you or did he suggest another way of
21 going about this?
22 A. Melic, after he and Zejnil's brother Vejsil
23 reviewed the videotapes, he told us that there was a
24 very large amount of material, that he was a refugee in
25 Zagreb himself, that he did not have a facility to
1 review everything, put it together, edit it. So he
2 suggested that we bring the cassettes back to Vienna
3 and that we should make a summary of the most important
4 events which had taken place in Bosnia and
6 Q. My next question to you is whether you did
7 sort of call the material for Mr. Melic and his effort
8 to counter this propaganda?
9 A. Yes. Immediately upon our return to Vienna,
10 Dzemal, Elvir and myself put together one video
11 cassette based on all this material.
12 Q. Excuse me. Just before you go on, who is
13 Elvir, please?
14 A. Elvir is a young man that worked at Inda-Bau,
15 he worked in the office, and Inda-Bau had two video
16 recorders and a monitor and there was enough equipment
17 to use to edit a videotape.
18 Q. Who selected this material? I don't want to
19 lead you.
20 A. It was Dzemal and myself who did that, and we
21 also took into account suggestions of Mr. Melic as to
22 what needed to be included.
23 Q. What was Mr. Melic's task? What was he
24 supposed to do?
25 A. His task was to put together a demanti of
1 sorts, a denial, even by maybe exaggerating certain
2 aspects of Mr. Delalic's activities in order to
3 successfully deny the charges and counter the lies and
4 slanders. He himself told me, "Ciso, it is very
5 difficult to reply to truth by truth in a war."
6 Q. Mr. Ciso, did you at some point turn over
7 this rough cut, if I may call it that, of this cassette
8 which contained excerpts from about 20 to 30 cassettes?
9 A. Yes, we did it the way we thought would work
10 well. We involved a member, a female member of the
11 association. We asked her for her help. We then took
12 this, if I may borrow your term, rough cut to
13 Mr. Melic. He took it and he said that he would review
14 it very carefully and that he would add his own audio
15 comments the way that he saw fit so that they would
16 have the most affect and they would be the most
17 appropriate companion to the images which we had
19 Q. Very well. I think this may be a good time
20 to stop, but just one more question: When you were
21 engaged in this work, where was Mr. Delalic, Zejnil
23 A. While we were involved in putting together
24 this cassette, Mr. Zejnil Delalic was in Munich and he
25 did not know that we were working on this cassette in
1 which we wanted to deny the negative charges against
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. This is the next
4 area, Your Honours. Would this be a good time to break
5 for the day?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we have to break;
7 it's 5.30. We will reassemble tomorrow morning at 10
9 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.
10 to be reconvened on Friday, the 29th day of
11 May, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.