1 --- Tuesday, June 2nd, 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
4 gentlemen. Do you have the appearances, please.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name
6 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues, Mr. Turone,
7 Ms. McHenry and Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
10 appearances for the Defence.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
12 am Edina Residovic, representing here today, Mr. Zejnil
13 Delalic, together with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan
14 Professor of Law from Canada. Thank you.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my
16 name Zeljko Olujic. I am defending here Mr. Zdravko
17 Mucic, together with my colleague, Mr. Tomislav
18 Kuzmanovic, who is absent this morning and will not
19 join us in the courtroom today. Thank you.
20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I
21 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, I
22 representing Mr. Hazim Delic.
23 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honour, I
24 am Cynthia McMurrey, along with my colleague, Ms. Nancy
25 Boler. We represent Esad Landzo.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
2 think we're still on with Ms. Residovic. May we have
3 your next witness.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour,
5 I will call the witness immediately. This morning we
6 have provided the court with the list of witnesses and
7 the possibilities of the -- the opportunities of the
8 defence to call them and have them examined, so I would
9 appreciate if you can tell us your opinion on our
10 proposal regarding the witness list today. Thank you.
11 (The witness entered court)
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is in
13 addition to the witnesses you've already called?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
15 didn't hear what you said because I didn't have my
16 earphones on. I didn't hear the interpretation.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I was commenting these
18 latest witness list is in addition to witnesses already
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, this is a continuation
21 beginning with today and these are only witnesses who
22 have been already put on the list, but we have reduced
23 the number. We have left out eight witnesses, so this
24 would be our final proposal and this would conclude the
25 case of the Defence.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As long as the
2 difficulties likely to be imposed by duplication and
3 repetition, there's nothing wrong in your witness list,
4 as long as we don't have duplication or repetition of
5 evidence. I would like you to call them, please.
6 Because what we said from the beginning is
7 that evidence which is obviously relevant because they
8 are duplicated or repetitive, then the evidence could
9 be called. We will go on. They are your witnesses,
10 you know how to examine them and what you'll have to
11 say to avoid those principles. Thank you, you can
12 carry on. Swear the witness, please.
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down,
17 WITNESS: MUSTAFA DZELILOVIC
18 EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
19 Q. Good morning, sir.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name
22 and introduce yourself to this chamber?
23 A. My name is Mustafa Dzelilovic.
24 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, before I proceed with my
25 questions to you during this examination-in-chief, I
1 have to draw your attention to a technical matter. You
2 and I speak the same language and it would be very easy
3 for you to answer immediately each of my questions.
4 However, our conversation has to be interpreted so that
5 the Honourable Judges and all other participants in the
6 proceedings here in the courtroom can understand us.
7 Therefore, I kindly ask you, when I ask my question, to
8 wait for the interpretation coming from the earphones
9 on your table. So after the interpretation is
10 completed, you can answer my question. Mr. Dzelilovic,
11 have you understood me?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell me
14 where and when you were born?
15 A. I was born in Hadzici on the 13th of
16 November, 1955.
17 Q. What is your ethnic background and what is
18 your nationality?
19 A. My ethnic background is Bosniak and I am a
20 citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Dzelilovic?
22 A. I am an ergonomist.
23 Q. What is your educational background, where
24 did you go to school?
25 A. I completed elementary education in Hadzici
1 and secondary school in Sarajevo and I graduated from
2 the faculty of ergonomy in Sarajevo.
3 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell us now where
4 were you in 1992 when the war started in
6 A. The aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina found me
7 in Hadzici, where I was president of the Municipality
8 of Hadzici.
9 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, the Court knows quite a bit
10 about Bosnia and Herzegovina and the area in question,
11 but still, I would like you to tell us whether the
12 Municipality of Hadzici belonged to the area of
13 Sarajevo town?
14 A. Yes, it did. The Municipality of Hadzici was
15 part of Sarajevo. It was one of the ten municipalities
16 that made up the Town of Sarajevo, the City of
18 Q. One more question to clarify this issue, so
19 that we know exactly which area we are talking about.
20 Could you tell us where exactly this municipality is
21 located, in which direction from the Town of Sarajevo
22 and where precisely it is located?
23 A. The Municipality of Hadizi is situated on the
24 road Number M-17. On the south it borders the
25 Municipality of Konjic and on the west, the
1 municipalities of Kresevo and Kiseljak.
2 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at this moment, we would be
3 interested in the southern part of your municipality,
4 could you tell us with which villages belonging to the
5 Konjic Municipality your Municipality of Hadzici
7 A. The border is near the Evan Sedlo Ridge. And
8 it's situated near the village of Bradina, which
9 belongs to the Municipality of Konjic. On our side,
10 there are villages of Vranske Stijene and Janici. And
11 there's a tunnel going under the Ivan Planina
12 mountain. And this is sort of bordered between these
13 two municipalities.
14 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, so far the court has heard
15 the names of Hadizi and Pazaric and Tarcin. However,
16 could you tell us where in relation to your
17 municipality where these villages are situated?
18 A. There are eleven local communes in the
19 village of Hadizi and there are three residential urban
20 areas Hadizi, Pazaric and Tarcin. The remaining local
21 communes are villages, that is rural areas.
22 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, you just said that your
23 municipality, together with these residential areas is
24 located on a strategically important road, M-17, could
25 you now tell us whether there were any other reasons
1 why your municipality had military and strategic
2 significance at the time?
3 A. Yes. It was an important strategic point at
4 the time because of a number of military installations
5 on the territory of the municipality. The municipality
6 comprised one part of the Bjela Sjzni (phoen) mountain,
7 which from a strategically point of view is a very
8 important area. And a technological -- a military
9 technological institute was located in Hadzici, where
10 military equipment was repaired and there was a very
11 important warehouse where weapons were stored in the
12 area. The place is called Zunovica. And there is
13 another military depot in the area and the barracks in
14 Pazaric. And at Usivak there was a barracks, whose
15 main function was communication at the time.
16 Therefore, we can talk about a very important
17 municipality from the strategical point of view.
18 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, such a geographical location
19 in the installations belonging to the former JNA that
20 you have just mentioned, were they the reason of the --
21 for the attitude of the former JNA towards this
22 particular municipality? The attitude and behaviour of
23 the JNA. Again, I am reminding you that this is a
24 municipality which was part of the Town of Sarajevo.
25 A. Yes, the former JNA thought the area was
1 quite important and it wanted to capture it.
2 Q. As the President of Municipality and later on
3 as the President of the war Presidency of the
4 Municipality of Hadizi, do you know whether the former
5 JNA managed to fulfil their objective and when?
6 A. Yes, it did. After the events that took
7 place in Sarajevo, in the month of April, the Yugoslav
8 Peoples Army, together with the SDS forces, set up a
9 blockade on the M-17 road and captured a junction
10 leading to Kiseljak in Hadzici, which was strategically
11 very important because it was coming from the direction
12 of Sarajevo. On the other hand, the former JNA armed
13 the para military formations of the SDS in the area
14 of Ivan Planina Mountain. Therefore, there was
15 evidence, reliable evidence, that they were fulfilling
16 their plan. They were implementing their aggressive
17 policy and they were very open about it throughout the
18 month of April. They were acting in support of the pro
19 Chetnik SDS forces.
20 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, the former JNA, did it
21 operate, in a military sense, in the territory of the
22 Hadzici municipality and what happened at that time
23 with the authorities, with the local authorities and
24 the population of your municipality?
25 A. Unfortunately, on 9th of May, the former
1 Yugoslav Peoples Army carried out an aggression against
2 our municipality with tanks, rocket launchers, APCs,
3 anti-aircraft weapons. It attacked the Town of
4 Hadzici. And pushed away the police forces that were
5 trying to put up some sort of resistance, but to no
6 avail because at that time the police had a very small
7 amount of infantry weapons at their disposal.
8 JUDGE JAN: Is it necessary to go into all
9 those details? Why don't you come straight away to the
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I believe that
12 these data are quite important when it comes to the
13 assignments of the tactical group and the possible
14 responsibility of its commanders in their area of
15 responsibility. This municipality is part of the Town
16 of Sarajevo and we thought that this person who is a
17 fact witness, can describe the situation in which Mr.
18 Delalic found himself for about half a year. I think
19 that without the description of these circumstances, it
20 is difficult to understand his responsibilities and his
21 task he was commander of the tactical group. These are
22 the only reasons actually. I mean, we're simply not
23 trying to talk about the war.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't know these
25 possibilities are in dispute. We're not in dispute,
1 commander of TG-1, that he has responsibilities, nobody
2 disputes that. What brings all the charges, are the
3 exercise of his authority as TG-1 commander, not that
4 he has authority as TG-1 commander, not his
5 responsibility, that is not in dispute. Nobody
6 disputes that. The Prosecutor is here. We know that.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but it is
8 the Prosecutor's case that he, as the commander of all
9 formations was responsible for everything, including
10 Celebici. If he's not responsible for anything, then
11 how can he be responsible for Celebici.
12 This is our response. We are bringing here,
13 people who were in the area at the time. Who can
14 testify from their personal knowledge about something
15 that I as a lawyer could couldn't tell you. And this
16 is the reason why we call these people from Jablanica,
17 Prozor, Hadzici, and Konjic. We are trying to provide
18 you with an opportunity to see what kind of
19 responsibilities he had. And it's probably after their
20 evidence that you will be able to reach a decision
21 about his responsibilities, whether the Prosecution is
22 right or the defence, because, again, we cannot present
23 you with any proof regarding, for example, hangar 6
24 because my client was not there. And we do not have
25 fact witnesses who will testify to that. So we are
1 trying to focus on a wider area of responsibility.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not an issue, --
3 and explain, and my brother has also the details of
4 what happened has nothing to do with whether he
5 exercised his responsibilities properly. This is what
6 he's staying. It has nothing to do with that. Because
7 while he was appointed, why Hadzici was unsafe and what
8 JNA did, has nothing to do with his exercise of his
9 responsibility. Because what brings him into the
10 offence is his exercise of responsibility. And his
11 role towards that. As I have already said, perhaps
12 it's your own understanding of what the charge is, but
13 it's very clear. And what this witness has set out to
14 tell us is, the role and responsibility of Delalic as
15 TG-1 commander. And particularly from the 1st of May
16 to October. All these are the background information,
17 has nothing to do with it.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence
19 believes that this is important, so, of course, you can
20 always say that the question is not relevant, but we
21 believe that the reasons, that is the assignments that
22 were carried out by Delalic's commander, tactical group
23 1 we believe that this is important. I will try not to
24 burden this court with all the superfluous details,
25 because the details which are not important for the
1 defence of Mr. Delalic.
2 Q. Thank you. Following the instructions of the
3 chamber, Mr. Dzelilovic, I will simply ask you then,
4 where did the local authorities withdraw after the
5 former JNA and the SDS took over the centre of the town
6 the way you described?
7 A. The local authorities withdrew to Pasaric
8 together with the population that managed to pull out
9 from Hadzici. Unfortunately, 186 people remained there
10 forever and we don't know what happened to them to this
11 date. Therefore, the seat of the Hadzici municipality
12 from the beginning of the war until the signing of the
13 Dayton accord was in Pasaric.
14 Q. In response to my previous question, Mr.
15 Dzelilovic, you said that your municipality was
16 bordering the Municipality of Konjic in the area of
17 Ivan Planina Mountain and that this area was blocked as
18 early as April, what did this blockade of the road to
19 Konjic mean for the population of the village of
21 A. The population of the Hadzici municipality
22 found themselves stuck between the area of Konjic and
23 the area of Hadzici, we did not have any way out from
24 our municipality except through Vlakiseljac (phoen), so
25 what this meant for the local population was that, for
1 example, the wounded and the sick had to be transported
2 to the first medical institution along the road for
3 about 15 or 16 hours.
4 Q. How long would you normally travel from
5 Pasaric to Konjic? And how did that trip change after
6 the blockade?
7 A. Well, that trip used to last less than half
8 an hour.
9 JUDGE JAN: We have already been told about
10 that by Dokramovic, Mr. Dzelilovic. We have also been
11 told by General Divjak if you don't have access through
12 Mount Ivan, then you have to travel about 16 passes,
13 what is the necessity of that? Ask us about TG-1,
14 tactical group, then we will know what responsibilities
15 are. Why go into unnecessary details?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I will follow
17 your instructions, however, after the testimony of
18 General Divjak the Prosecution did not change their
19 allegations and are claiming that these forces attacked
20 peaceful Serb villages, and that's why we're trying
21 through these witnesses who lived at the time in the
22 area to describe the situation. This may be beyond
23 dispute for you but as long as the charges are as they
24 stand, we have an obligation to question these
25 witnesses to that effect. I know that you have been
1 convinced of that, but it is still the Prosecutor's
2 case that the situation was such. Thank you.
3 JUDGE JAN: I have not been convinced, but
4 please go ahead with your witness.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
6 Q. You have said that you only needed half an
7 hour to go there, and after the siege?
8 A. Well, we needed 15 or 16 hours along a dirt
9 road to reach the area.
10 JUDGE JAN: I'm sorry, I said -- I said "I am
11 not sure." I said, "I am not sure that I have been
12 convinced." Not that I have not been convinced.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC:
14 Q. The population of Hadzici, which at the time
15 was reduced to that restricted area, did they -- was
16 the lifting of the blockade of vital significance for
17 them at the time?
18 A. Yes, it was a question of life and death for
19 the population of Hadzici, was the only way out, and
20 such an operation had to take place. At that time
21 there was a great number of refugees in the area who
22 had come from Eastern Bosnia with the horrible stories
23 about killings and rapes, and we are talking about a
24 very restricted area, 200 square kilometres, the area
25 which was constantly exposed to shelling and air
1 attacks. So we didn't have adequate medical
2 protection. And as I say, it was a question of life
3 and death. It was something that had to be done.
4 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, I believe that we have
5 described the general situation in the area at the
6 time, and right now I would like to move to another
7 area. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell me whether you
8 knew Mr. Zejnil Delalic before the war and if you had
9 an opportunity to meet with him between April and
10 November 1992?
11 A. I didn't know Zejnil Delalic before the war,
12 and the first time I met with him was in April in
13 Konjic, when together, with the representatives of the
14 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of Hadzici,
15 and representatives of the police, when I managed to
16 reach Konjic via this dirt road that I mentioned. And
17 this is when I first met Zejnil Delalic.
18 At that time he was involved with logistics
19 and he helped us on that occasion with some supplies.
20 He gave us some uniforms, Motorola’s, medical supplies
21 and so on. That was our first meeting.
22 Q. After that meeting in April, did you at any
23 point in time come across Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
24 A. Our next meeting took place in mid-May, I'm
25 not sure, maybe a little later. It was after we had
1 received information that Zejnil Delalic was in Zagreb
2 and that he was supposed to obtain some technical
3 supplies. And we were told that a convoy was supposed
4 to pass through Dusina on the way to Visoko. So
5 together with the representatives of the
6 representatives of the municipal staff and the police,
7 I went to Ducina, and this is where I met with him the
8 second time. Part of the supplies were given to the
9 Municipality of Hadzici.
10 Q. When you met with Mr. Zejnil Delalic in
11 Ducina in this second half of May, what function did he
12 perform at the time, if you can remember?
13 A. Well, I think he was in charge of escorting
14 the convoy, because he had been in Zagreb, he was
15 supposed to obtain these supplies, so he came with the
17 Q. At that time was there anyone else, besides
18 members of the municipal staff, was there anyone else
19 in Ducina and did anyone else take over the supplies
20 that had been obtained in the Republic of Croatia?
21 A. Well, as far as I can remember, Mr. Mustafa
22 Polutak was also there, and he was representing the
23 Tactical Group that had been established some time
24 before that. So I think that he took over a certain
25 amount of weapons for the Tactical Group.
1 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in view of your knowledge
2 about the meeting in Ducina, could you tell us whether
3 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at that time, was a civilian, as
4 far as you knew, or did he have some other function?
5 When you first met Mr. Zejnil Delalic, did
6 you see him as a civilian, and what was the situation
7 in that regard during your second meeting with him?
8 A. As far as I know, he was a civilian all the
9 time until he was appointed as the commander of the
10 Tactical Group 1.
11 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, after the month of May, have
12 you met Mr. Delalic, and what tasks and functions did
13 he hold at that time?
14 A. I met Zejnil Delalic at the area of Hadzici,
15 when we conducted an electrification introduction of
16 electrical current into our villages of the
17 municipality, because the electrical current supply was
18 interrupted from Hadzici. So we had took certain
19 measures to repair the supply network. And in
20 cooperation with Zejnil Delalic, we managed to do so
21 from the direction of Konjic.
22 We also met again, due to reconstruction of
23 the railroad, repairs to the railroad, between
24 Hadzici and Jablanica.
25 Q. Thank you. I would now move onto another
1 topic, after we have gone thoroughly through your
2 knowledge of Zejnil Delalic's functions between April
3 and June.
4 Would you please tell me whether your troops
5 took part in some of combat operations, together with
6 the units of Konjic, within that period that we have
7 just mentioned?
8 A. Yes, we had a joint operation to deblock road
9 M17 around Bradina. On our part we had the Territorial
10 Defence of Hadzici units and the unit of the public
11 safety of our municipality, meaning the police.
12 Q. From your side, who commanded the Territorial
13 Defence units which took part in the deblocking of the
14 road, and who was in charge of the police units?
15 A. The Territorial Defence units were commanded
16 by their commander, a commander of the local
17 headquarters, Territorial Defence. Police had its own
18 hierarchy and subordination. They had the head of the
19 police at the station or precinct of public security in
21 Q. In your knowledge, would you know who was in
22 charge of the units on the other side of Ivan Planina,
23 meaning from the direction of Konjic?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you claim that the
1 units which were in action from -- on your part, were
2 commanded by the people that you have stated? Were
3 there some third parties or other persons from other
4 municipalities who, at that time, could have attained
5 any command or responsibility over the units of
7 A. No. I state that the command of our units
8 was done solely by the commander of our municipal staff
9 and the head of the police and the public security of
10 Hadzici, and the command for that attack was given by
11 the Territorial Defence headquarters of
13 Q. How long, if you could remember, did that
14 operation of deblocking of Bradina -- how long did it
15 last, at least when it concerns your units?
16 A. Operations were concluded within two days.
17 Q. Do you know if those forces of armed Serb
18 population, did they resist?
19 A. Yes, their resistance was fierce. Within the
20 first day we had 14 wounded. Our units have moved on
21 somewhat earlier, and Chetnik forces in Bradina
22 probably thought that the attack is coming only from
23 our direction, and they resisted. They resisted
25 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at any point in the area of
1 your municipality was there a commander at the
2 headquarters or commanding staff of the Tactical Group
4 A. Yes. The commander of the Tactical Group, as
5 I have said, was Polutak Mustafa, Lieutenant-Colonel of
6 the former JNA. He came to Pazaric and -- and a seat
7 of the Tactical Group 1 from that moment on was in
9 Q. At the time when Mr. Polutak was the
10 commander of Tactical Group 1, do you know whether
11 certain units of the municipal Territorial Defence were
12 under the command of Mr. Polutak?
13 A. Yes. A part of our units was. A certain
14 number of people, around 300, was under the command of
15 the Tactical Group 1.
16 Q. Since all the combat operations were
17 conducted in the area of your municipality, would you
18 tell me, at that time did you know or do you know that
19 in some of the operations of Tactical Group 1 the units
20 of Konjic also took part?
21 A. Yes, they did. As part of Tactical Group 1,
22 there were also units from Konjic, Jablanica and
23 Prozor, and when those units arrived from those areas,
24 they were well equipped, and it was then said that the
25 equipping of those units was performed by Mr. Delalic,
1 which was, for our current conditions, a big thing.
2 Because we had -- we tried daily to try to reject the
3 forces, the attacks, which were attacking us on a daily
4 basis from all directions.
5 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, I will now ask you a question
6 concerning the combat operation, because we have
7 another witness, we have here, Lieutenant-Colonel
8 Polutak, but I would like to ask you, since you were a
9 direct witness, do you know whether in that operation,
10 when the commander was Mr. Polutak, did Zejnil Delalic
11 command, have command of the units coming from Konjic?
12 A. No. Those units were subordinated to
13 Tactical Group 1, as well as parts of the municipal
14 Territorial Defence were subordinated to Tactical Group
16 Q. I would ask you again to talk on another
17 topic, because I believe we have obtained enough facts
18 to the Chamber about your knowledge of Tactical Group
19 1, while it was under command of Mr. Polutak.
20 Mr. Dzelilovic, you have said that at the
21 beginning of the war you were the head of the Municipal
22 Assembly. Can you tell me, until when in 1992 did you
23 stay -- did you hold that function; and in your
24 municipality, when you were unable to conduct meetings
25 of the assembly, did you have any other local authority
1 body operational?
2 A. During the entire time of the war, I held my
3 position. At the periods when we were unable to hold
4 meetings, we had a functioning Presidency of the
5 Hadzici municipality, and this is a term -- a war term
6 of so-called war Presidency.
7 Q. Did you mean this was not a part of the law,
8 of the legislation?
9 A. The Presidency was functioning because we had
10 the sufficient number of representatives to
11 occasionally hold meetings of the assembly, to verify
12 the decisions that we as members of the Presidency
14 Q. Did the Municipal Assembly, or your war
15 Presidency, when there was a lack of possibility to
16 hold meetings of the Assembly, did you have the
17 authority to name to post commanders of the units
18 within your municipality?
19 A. No. The war Presidency did not have a
20 competence to appoint commanders. We could give
21 suggestions, but the appointment was done by the
22 regional Territorial Defence headquarters, or the
23 headquarters of Territorial Defence of
25 Q. In your Municipality of Hadzici, did
1 -- commanders of the municipal headquarters were
2 members of your war Presidency?
3 A. Members of the Presidency, no.
4 Q. Can you remember, Mr. Dzelilovic, whether
5 that period between April and October, who were the
6 commanders of the municipal headquarters, Territorial
7 Defence in Hadzici, or did you just have one commander?
8 A. When the aggression on the Municipality of
9 Hadzici began, the commander was Ramiz Stupovac. He
10 was appointed earlier, while there was still not a war
11 going on. After that we had Said Rizvic, after whom
12 Camur, after which Kazic and so on.
13 Q. Could you tell us, since there were
14 operations at that moment, whether some of the people
15 -- some of the commanders were wounded or they were
16 killed, but was it usual to appoint in such cases new
17 commanders on the part of the military authorities?
18 A. Yes, because there was a very serious front
19 line. We had daily attacks and we had wounded and
21 Q. Can you tell me, Mr. Dzelilovic, whether the
22 head of the police precinct was a member of your war
23 Presidency, and whether he was his subordinate?
24 A. The head of the public security was a member
25 of the presidency, as well as the Secretary of
1 Territorial -- of the Peoples Defence, but the
2 Presidency did not have a superior authority over the
3 head of the police precinct of the police. They have
4 their CSV subordination, this is the Minister of the
5 Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Another question relating to the topic.
7 Could you tell me, Mr. Dzelilovic, who were the forces
8 of defence in Hadzici within that period?
9 A. Those were Territorial Defence and the units
10 of public security of Hadzici.
11 Q. You have already answered that since
12 Mr. Polutak came, from then on the seat of Tactical
13 Group 1 was in the area of your municipality. Can you,
14 as the head of municipality, although this data may be
15 more familiar to the commander or Territorial Defence,
16 but could you tell us how many soldiers of your
17 municipality were subordinated to the commander of
18 Tactical Group 1 during certain combat operations?
19 JUDGE JAN: You said 300.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the number, yes.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Honourable Chamber, I may
22 have heard it incorrectly.
23 Q. Under whose subordination were the remaining
24 units of your municipality, those who were not
25 subordinated to the commander of the Tactical Group?
1 A. Those units were under the command of the
2 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence of
4 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, tell me how long would such
5 combat operations take, how much time would they take,
6 the operations conducted by the Tactical Group 1?
7 A. Between seven and ten days.
8 Q. Were there any periods you had a more
9 extensive operation?
10 A. Yes. In August or November we had the
11 operation JUG or south '92.
12 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Dzelilovic, do you
13 know what happened to soldiers who were subordinated to
14 the commander of Tactical Group 1 after such operations
15 would cease?
16 A. Those units would then be returned to the
17 Territorial Defence at the municipal headquarters, and
18 then at those periods they were under the command of
19 the Territorial Defence headquarters. They would
20 return to their basic unit.
21 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, within a period of time in
22 the area of your municipality was there another seat or
23 a newly formed Tactical Group?
24 A. Yes. Tactical Group 2 was founded with a
25 seat in Igman in the Hotel Borik.
1 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know if a part of
2 units of your Hadzici municipality was subordinated
3 also to Tactical Group 2?
4 A. Yes. A part of our units of Territorial
5 Defence of Hadzici municipality was subordinated to
6 Tactical Group 1, and another part was subordinated to
7 Tactical Group 2. A part of units remained at the
8 front line under the command of the Territorial Defence
10 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know whether either of
11 the tactical groups, number 1 or number 2, which was
12 founded later, was in command over the Territorial
13 Defence headquarters of Hadzici?
14 A. No. They were never in command to our
15 municipal headquarters. It was in command only to some
16 units which were, at given moments, part of Tactical
17 Group 1 or 2.
18 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in accordance to your
19 knowledge of the situation in the municipality, has
20 either of the tactical groups, Tactical Group 1 or 2,
21 did they have command or authority over certain
22 institutions of the area of your municipality?
23 A. No. Tactical Groups 1 and 2 did not have
24 authority over any institutions excepting the units
25 which were subordinated, the TO, the Territorial
1 Defence units, subordinated to them.
2 Q. I believe we are clear enough, but
3 nevertheless I will ask you to respond to a more
4 precise question, whether Tactical Group 1 or Tactical
5 Group 2, did they have control of a prison facility or
6 did they have authority over a prison facility which
7 potentially existed at the territory of your
9 A. No. Tactical Group 1, Tactical Group 2 did
10 not have any authority, any competence concerning
11 prison facilities.
12 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could we now move onto yet
13 another topic, which would be of interest to us. If
14 you can respond to questions posed to you. In your
15 knowledge, Mr. Dzelilovic, did Mr. Zejnil Delalic in
16 1992, was he named or appointed as a commander of
17 Tactical Group 1?
18 A. Yes. After an accident that Mr. Polutak had,
19 when the place was -- the post was vacant, then the
20 commander of Tactical Group 1 became Zejnil Delalic.
21 It seems to me it was in July or August, beginning of
23 Q. Have you met him right away when he came to
24 Pazaric, i.e. the area of your municipality, and can
25 you remember who was with him at the time?
1 A. I met him, I went to congratulate him, and he
2 had with him the head of the Territorial Defence,
3 commander Sucho Paritza (phoen). I congratulated him,
4 I wished him all the best, because the war on the front
5 line in my municipality was a very hard one.
6 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, from that moment when
7 Mr. Delalic, as you say, at the end of July or
8 beginning of August, when he was appointed as a
9 commander of Tactical Group 1, from that moment on did
10 he become a superior authority over the Municipal
11 Assembly, the war Presidency, or personally yourself?
12 A. No. I never had anybody as my superior
13 authority, any commander. He was only in command of
14 the units or parts of the units of our Territorial
15 Defence which became part of Tactical Group 1. The
16 principle is the same as it was when Mr. Polutak was in
17 charge, so he does not have a superior authority over
18 war Presidency of our municipality. This is
20 Q. Do you know, from the moment of his
21 appearance when he came, did he become the superior
22 authority to the Territorial Defence headquarters of
23 your municipality?
24 A. No. I have already said that. He is only in
25 command of those parts of units which were transferred
1 from the Territorial Defence of Hadzici and put under
2 the command of Tactical Group 1.
3 Q. Do you know if within that period a certain
4 number of units was subordinated to Mr. Delalic as the
5 commander of Tactical Group 1?
6 A. Excuse me?
7 Q. Do you know whether a part of units from the
8 Municipality of Hadzici was subordinated to Tactical
9 Group 1 at the time of -- when Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
11 A. Yes. He was in command -- those units were
12 subordinated to Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2,
13 that is a part of units of our Territorial Defence.
14 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know who was the
15 commander of Tactical Group 2?
16 A. Commander of Tactical Group 2 was Mirsad
17 Catic and after he had been wounded, this function was
18 taken over by the chief of staff, a Mr. Huso Alic, I
20 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know under whose
21 authority were the prisons in the area?
22 A. The prisons were under the authority of the
23 public security stations in my municipality.
24 Q. Since you stated, Mr. Dzelilovic, that the
25 formations of the armed forces in your municipality
1 were composed of the MUP units and Territorial Defence
2 units, could you tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
3 ever commander of all the formations in the area? That
4 is, the MUP units, the Territorial Defence units in the
5 territory of your municipality.
6 A. No, never. He was only the commander of the
7 units who were subordinated to Tactical Group 1. I
8 believe that this is quite clear.
9 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at that time, in 1992, in the
10 territory of the Hadzici municipality, did any judicial
11 bodies function? That is, Courts' and Prosecutor's
13 A. No, Prosecutor's offices did not exist at the
14 time in Hadzici. We belong to the judicial area of
15 Sarajevo. That is, our municipality is within the
16 competence of the Sarajevo courts. We only had a
17 magistrate court.
18 Q. Thank you. The court already knows that the
19 magistrate's court is an administrative type of court.
20 And right now I would like to ask you something else,
21 Mr. Dzelilovic. As the President of the municipality,
22 did you have authority to establish a court or public
23 Prosecutor's office on the territory of your
24 municipality and did you have authority to appoint
1 A. No. I did not. This is not within the
2 authority of the municipality. This is within the
3 competence of the ministry of justice.
4 Q. There's one other topic that I would like to
5 discuss with you, Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know where
6 Celebici is located?
7 A. Yes, I do. Celebici is located on the M-17
8 road in the direction of Jablanica.
9 Q. At that time, in 1992, did you know that
10 there was a barracks there?
11 A. Yes, I knew even before the war that there
12 used to be a military barracks.
13 Q. In 1992, did you ever visit the barracks in
15 A. No, never.
16 Q. In 1992, Mr. Dzelilovic, were you aware that
17 there was a prison situated within that barracks?
18 A. No, I was not.
19 Q. Again, in 1992, or at any other point later
20 on, did you learn that Tactical Group 1 or its
21 commander, Zejnil Delalic, had any authority over that
23 A. No, this can't be.
24 JUDGE JAN: How can he say that?
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't hear that there
1 was any prison there.
2 JUDGE JAN: In any case, how can he say
4 MS. RESIDOVIC:
5 Q. Finally, several very brief questions
6 regarding one particular issue. Mr. Dzelilovic, you
7 said that the western side, your municipality
8 borders with Kiseljak. Could you tell me whether in
9 1992, on the territory of your municipality, whether
10 there were any problems with the HVO forces, although,
11 at the beginning, the HVO forces and the forces of BiH
12 army acted together?
13 A. On the territory of the Hadzici municipality
14 there were no HVO forces. However, we had to use the
15 road via Kresevo and Kiseljak and we encountered a
16 number of problems when we wanted to pass through that
17 area. Conveys were looted and people were arrested and
18 so on.
19 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about
21 A. Yes, I was arrested by the HVO on nine
23 Q. Are you aware that at the time these forces
24 conducted propaganda against a certain number of
1 A. Yes, I am aware about this propaganda. It
2 was constant. The object was to discredit the
3 politicians in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a campaign
4 conducted by the media and it lasted throughout the
5 war. I guess this is the usual thing that happens in
6 any war.
7 Q. And one last question, Mr. Dzelilovic,
8 considering the fact that the seat of commanders of
9 Tactical Groups 1 and 2 were in your area, do you have
10 any personal knowledge that in that time, there was a
11 very severe campaign that was being conducted against
12 the commanders, Delalic and Catic.
13 A. Yes, yes, I know that that propaganda was
14 master-minded in order to endanger the morale of the
15 members of the BiH army.
16 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in spite of all these efforts
17 to lift the blockade of the town, how long did these
18 military activities last in your municipality?
19 A. Well, military operations lasted throughout
20 the war. But when it comes to this period, the period
21 of very intense fighting, the operations lasted
22 throughout July, August and September. Unfortunately,
23 we were not successful. And we did not manage to help
24 the local population out and to lift the blockade of
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Mr.
2 Dzelilovic, this concludes my examination-in-chief.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
4 Any cross-examination?
5 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, Defence of Mr.
6 Mucic has no questions for this witness. Thank you.
7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the Defence of
8 Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions for this witness
9 either. Thank you.
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, the Defence of
11 Esad Landzo has no questions for this witness either.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions for the
14 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour, we have
15 a few questions.
16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. TURONE:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzelilovic, my name is
18 Turone and I will ask you some questions for the
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, you told the court already
22 about the strategic importance of your municipality,
23 Hadzici. Do you agree with me that Hadzici had a
24 particularly significant importance for the purpose of
25 lifting the siege of Sarajevo?
1 A. Yes, it did from the strategic point of
2 view. On the right side of the Hadzici municipality,
3 there's the Mount Igman. And on the other side, to the
4 south, there's the Mount Ivan. So these are two very
5 important strategic points in the area.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have
7 admitted that's the case.
8 JUDGE JAN: You answered it yes.
9 MR. TURONE: That's enough for me, Mr.
11 Q. Do you agree with me that for this reason,
12 Hadzici was chosen one of the two lines of attack in
13 order to lift the siege of Sarajevo? Is that correct?
14 The other line of attack being Visoko, you're aware of
16 A. I know about Visoko, yes, but I can only be a
17 fact witness for the events that took place in my
19 Q. Yeah, that's all right.
20 A. But I understand why there were attempts made
21 in that area because this was very close to our
22 municipality, maybe only 2 or 3 kilometres away. And
23 this is all we needed to lift the blockade of
24 Sarajevo. And that is why this particular location was
25 chosen for lifting the siege of Sarajevo.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's talk not about
2 the line of attack of Visiko, but the line of attack of
3 Hadzici, which concerned your municipality. Do you
4 agree with me that the line of attack of Hadzici was
5 the one entrusted to Tactical Group 1, is that okay?
6 Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And are you aware, by the way, that the other
9 line of attack, the one of Visoko was entrusted to
10 Tactical Group 2?
11 A. Yes. I don't know the details.
12 Q. All right. That's enough for me. Thank
13 you. Just about Tactical Group 2, you named some
14 commanders of them. Are you aware that another
15 commander of Tactical Group 2, some time at the
16 beginning was Colonel Rasim Delic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You mean you're not aware?
19 A. No, I don't think he was. I know that Mirsad
20 Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2. I know that,
21 but I don't know about Rasim.
22 Q. In any case, do you know this person, Rasim
23 Delic, Colonel Rasim Delic?
24 A. Yes, I know him. He's the commander in chief
25 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. And what about his capacity in May, was he
2 already commander in chief in May, '92?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And what was his capacity in May, '92, if you
6 A. I don't know what he did in May, I know that
7 at that time, the commander was Sefer Halilovic.
8 Q. I see, you've within saying something to the
9 court about the Bradina blockade, et cetera, and about
10 the roundabout routes that were necessary to reach
11 Konjic from Pasaric, do you agree with me that before
12 the blockade was eliminated you had to follow these
13 roundabout routes to reach Konjic, passing through
14 Fojnica and Dusina?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that's what he
16 said in a roundabout way.
17 MR. TURONE: Actually, he didn't say exactly
18 through which villages or town did this roundabout
19 route pass. I would like to know whether these
20 roundabout routes would pass through Fojnica and
22 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, they went through
23 the municipalities of Kresevo, Kiseljak and then the
24 Municipality of Fojnica and then all the way down to
25 Konjic. But we're talking about dirt roads and very
1 small roads going through the woods. If you have a
2 map, I could easily point it on the map.
3 Q. You said Dusina was on this roundabout and
4 that because of the M-17 blockade. Do you agree with
5 me that the attack on Bradina on May 25 was carried on
6 precisely in order to eliminate the blockade on the
7 main road, M-17, is that correct?
8 A. That was the basic objective of the
9 operation, to lift the blockade of the M-17 road and to
10 prevent the Chetnik units from joining with each other,
11 the Chetnik units from Bradina and surrounding areas.
12 Q. And let's go now to that day of about
13 mid-May, '92, when you met with Zejnil Delalic in
14 Dusina. That was, of course, before the blockade was
15 eliminated, is that correct? In mid-May, yes,
16 certainly so. Do you agree with me that in that
17 occasion, that day, you had a meeting in Dusina, not
18 only with Delalic and Polutak, but also with Rasim
19 Delic, Dinko Sebic and Hasan Cengic that day in
20 Dusina, did you see these people in Dusina that day?
21 A. No, I only saw Dinko Zebic, Polutak and some
22 other people who were escorting the convoy.
23 Q. So you don't remember having seen Rasim Delic
24 and Hasan Cengic?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What about Dinko Zebic, what was Dinko Zebic
2 doing there that day?
3 A. I don't know. I was just introduced to him
4 on that occasion by someone, but I don't know what he
5 was doing there.
6 Q. But, on this occasion, when you met these
7 people in Dusina; Delalic, Polutak, Dinko Zebic, do you
8 agree with me that you had some discussion about the
9 need for breaking the Bradina blockade, which was still
10 on, is that correct?
11 A. I didn't discuss anything with Dinko Zebic.
12 Q. I mean with any of the other people, you were
13 in Dusina on that roundabout route because of the
14 blockade of M-17 road, is this your testimony, that
15 meeting with these people that day in Dusina, you
16 didn't talk about the Bradina blockade at all?
17 A. No, the only reason why I was there was to
18 take over part of the technical supplies. That was the
19 only thing I was interested in at that time.
20 Q. But, isn't that true that during this meeting
21 with these people in Dusina, also the formation of
22 Tactical Groups, 1 and 2, was discussed somehow --
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He told you he went
24 there to take over his supplies. That's all why he was
25 there. That's what he has just said.
1 MR. TURONE: All right, Your Honours. I will
2 pass on.
3 Q. Since a detention camp for Serb prisoners
4 existed in your municipality as well, is that correct,
5 that a Serb detention unit was in the silos of
6 Tarcin in '92?
7 A. It was not a camp, it was a prison. And it
8 is true that it was located in Tarcin. And it's a
9 prison, not a camp.
10 Q. That's okay, a prison is all right. And then
11 focusing for a moment on this detention unit, this
12 prison in Tarcin, is that correct that the commander of
13 the Tarcin camp in ‘92 was Becir Hujic?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, what's the
15 relevance of these questions?
16 MR. TURONE: This issue has been touched by
17 Ms. Residovic in examination-in-chief, probably just to
18 try to show how prisons were regulated in a similar way
19 in different municipalities. That is why I think we
20 are entitled to go through that issue too.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that case, you might
22 limit your questions to that of Catic because he's says
23 he's never had authority over any prisons in Celebici.
24 MR. TURONE: I am talking about the Tarcin
25 prison. I'm sorry, this Becir Hujic was a commander,
1 whose unit did Becir Hujic belong to?
2 A. Well, let me tell you, as far as the prison
3 in Tarcin is concerned, it was under the competence of
4 the public security stations in Hadzici, that is the
5 local MUP. Because at that time, the Territorial
6 Defence could not have established a prison according
7 to the then regulations. That is, the captured sniper
8 shooters and prisoners of war were surrendered to the
9 public security station in Hadzici and they were in
10 charge of subsequent proceedings. And I, myself, was
11 never present in that prison, nor was I interested in
12 it at the time.
13 Q. But, do you agree with me that in any case,
14 in 1992, the Tarcin prison was under the supervision,
15 the superior control of the 109th mountain brigade of
16 the Bosnia army led by Nezir Kazic, is that correct?
17 A. No, in 1992, the prison was under the control
18 of the public security station. Only after the
19 indictments were issued, the military, whatever
20 concerned military jurisdiction, it was only then that
21 it was placed under the control of the 109th mountain
22 brigade. Because the cases dealt with war prisoners.
23 JUDGE JAN: Tried by a military court. After
24 indictment, the cases are tried by the military court
25 or the civil courts.
1 THE WITNESS: Well, I am not sure the police
2 was in charge of the proceedings and they submitted
3 criminal reports. I don't know who tried these cases.
4 I know that judges were coming, but it was only in 1994
5 that they proceeded with trials, as far as I knew.
6 MR. TURONE: Is that possible to ask for a
7 break and have, eventually, one or more questions after
8 the break?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're exhausted,
10 then you don't have to.
11 MR. TURONE: In this case, my
12 cross-examination is finished, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of the
15 JUDGE JAN: If you don't have any questions,
16 you don't have to invent any.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just one question, Your
21 RE-EXAMINED BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
22 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, during the cross-examination,
23 you stated the Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2,
24 this is what you stated during your
25 examination-in-chief as well. Could you just tell us
1 in which area of your municipality did this particular
2 Tactical Group operate?
3 A. It operated in the area of the Mount Igman.
4 Q. This tactical group, did it ever operate from
5 the area of Visoko?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Very invigorating about
7 whether Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2.
8 That's all that was asked. It was suggested that it
9 was him. It was then asserted, so I don't see why
10 there should be an ambiguity.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it was not
12 clear in what direction it was. Because the witness
13 has just told us that the it was located in Mount Igman
14 and before it was claimed that it was in some other
15 area, and I was just trying to clarify this particular
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not even bother
18 about locations, I just wanted to know whether Catic or
19 some other person was commander of the TG-2. You are
20 now expanding it into the jurisdiction of...
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, from the
22 transcript you will see that Visoko was mentioned and
23 this concludes my examination. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Dzelilovic, thank you. This is all for you and you
1 are discharged.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
5 now rise and reassemble at twelve.
6 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
7 --- Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, your
9 next witness.
10 (The witness entered court)
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down. Proceed,
18 THE WITNESS: SABAN DURACIC
19 EXAMINED BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
20 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Will you please
21 introduce yourself to the court by stating your full
22 first and last name.
23 A. My name is Saban Duracic.
24 Q. Mr. Duracic, before I ask questions of you
25 with respect to your knowledge of the events of 1992, I
1 would like to draw your attention to a technical
2 point. You and I both speak the same language; you
3 would be able to very quickly respond to my questions.
4 However, the interpreters need to interpret every
5 question and every answer to one of the working
6 languages of the Tribunal, so that the Trial Chamber
7 and everyone else in the court would be able to follow
8 our conversation. So I will ask you to please wait for
9 my question to be interpreted, and you will hear the
10 sound coming from a set that is on your desk to your
11 left, and only then answer the question. In this way,
12 everybody will be able to follow and we will avoid any
13 confusion during this examination.
14 Mr. Duracic, did you understand the
15 instructions that I just gave you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Duracic, would you please
18 tell us when and where you were born?
19 A. I was born on 18 August 1941 in the village
20 of Koto in the Municipality of Konjic.
21 Q. What is your ethnic background and
23 A. I am a Bosniak Muslim and I am a citizen of
25 Q. Mr. Duracic, where do you live?
1 A. I live in Konjic.
2 Q. What is your profession, please?
3 A. I am a construction technician.
4 Q. Could you tell us, please, what has your
5 formal training been?
6 A. I completed secondary technical school in
8 Q. Mr. Duracic, where did you work before the
9 outbreak of war in April of 1992?
10 A. Until the outbreak of war, I worked in the
11 public utility company, water -- for water and sewage,
12 as a leader in the technical department.
13 Q. Mr. Duracic, where were you at the outbreak
14 of war in April -- on April 6th, 1992?
15 A. I was at work at that time.
16 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Duracic, when you
17 joined the defence forces of Konjic?
18 A. Yes. Immediately after the first shelling of
19 Sarajevo, I joined the municipal staff of the
20 Territorial Defence.
21 Q. What were your initial tasks after you
22 reported to the Territorial Defence and were mobilised
23 into the defence of Konjic?
24 A. Since I am an officer engineer, my first task
25 was to provide security, in terms of engineering of the
1 facility where the war Presidency was to be located.
2 Q. As a member of the TM, Mr. Duracic, did you
3 know in April 1992 that the Territorial Defence of
4 Konjic was organised pursuant to the new regulations on
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you know to whom your municipal staff was
8 subordinate at that point?
9 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial
10 Defence of Konjic, due to the absence of the district
11 headquarters in Mostar, because it was occupied by the
12 Serb Montenegrin aggressors, was subordinate
13 exclusively to the republican TO headquarters.
14 Q. Mr. Duracic, I will not ask you any more
15 questions in this area. This area has been covered by
16 the testimony of other witnesses. And I'm also not
17 going to ask you any questions regarding the situation
18 at Konjic, and your particular work on the strategic
19 defence of it.
20 My question to you is whether you took part
21 in any combat operations in April and May, in and
22 around Konjic; in other words, when was it that you
23 took part in combat operations in Konjic area as a
24 member of the Territorial Defence?
25 A. My first participation in the combat
1 operations was in May, when the barracks at Ljuta was
3 Q. As a participant of this operation in which
4 -- when the Ljuta barracks was taken over, can you tell
5 us whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic did take part in this
6 operation in which the Ljuta barracks was taken over?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know where Mr. Zejnil Delalic was at
9 that time?
10 A. I believe that at that time he was in Zagreb.
11 Q. Mr. Duracic, was -- were there any changes in
12 the month of May in your municipal staff? And when I
13 say this, I mean were there any substitutions and were
14 any new commanders appointed?
15 A. Yes. Mr. Rejgevocic (phoen) was replaced.
16 Mr. Esad Ramic was appointed commander of the
17 Territorial Defence headquarters.
18 Q. Mr. Duracic, the court also knows what the
19 structure of the defence forces in Konjic was. What I
20 would like to know is whether you know, from your
21 personal experience and knowledge, what efforts were
22 made to place both the TO and the HVO under a unified
23 command which would lead all these activities?
24 A. In April and May both members of the TO and
25 the HVO, at least based on the knowledge that I had,
1 both had the same goals, or shared the same goals,
2 which was the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the
4 Q. Can you tell me whether you know if in these
5 joint efforts, joint defence, anyone from the
6 republican headquarters of the Territorial Defence came
7 to Konjic?
8 A. Yes, I do know. At that time, and this was
9 right around the time when the new commander was
10 appointed, a member of the republican staff came to
11 visit, and this was Mr. Asim Dzambasovic. He stayed in
12 Konjic --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Another of your
14 witnesses, isn't it? Why should he say what he is
15 coming to say? That witness is coming, so there is no
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am not going to pursue this
18 line of questioning. But from all this testimony of
19 different citizens of Konjic, you realise that we are
20 laying the foundation for calling Mr. Dzambasovic. I
21 only wanted to link up Mr. Duracic's acquaintance with
22 Mr. Dzambasovic.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Call him what you've
24 called him to say. What he can testify to, let him say
25 that. When Asim comes, he should say what he is called
1 upon to testify to. Now you expect him to testify
2 about the Arab journalist, isn't it?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but he also will testify
4 to some other activities of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, in that
5 period of time, which is relevant for Mr. Delalic's
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him go ahead and
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Duracic, can you tell me whether during
11 sometime in May of 1992 you became a member of the
12 joint command?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us when this was and to what
15 position you were appointed?
16 A. I believe that this was in the latter half of
17 May, sometime around 17th or 18th of May, after a
18 meeting of the military top (sic) and the war
19 Presidency. I was not present at the meeting in the
21 Q. Go ahead, please.
22 A. But I did attend the meeting in the
23 afternoon, when the joint command staff was established
24 from members of the TO and the HVO. I was appointed to
25 the position of the chief of engineering.
1 Q. May the witness please be shown Exhibit
2 number D145(5/10), and the reference number is 7009 to
4 Mr. Duracic, will you please place the
5 English translation of this text on the ELMO and please
6 review the Bosnian version of the same document.
7 Mr. Duracic, do you recognise this chart?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is it?
10 A. This is the organisation chart of the joint
11 command, and here it also gives the Croatian word for
12 it, which is Istosha (phoen), but it's the
13 organisational chart of the joint command of the
14 defence forces of Konjic.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you please point to your
16 position, that is to the duties to which you were
17 appointed? There is a pointer, which you may want to
18 use to show it on the English version on the chart.
19 Thank you, sir.
20 This sufficient, Mr. Duracic. The chart can
21 be returned. It has already been introduced as a
22 Defence Exhibit.
23 Mr. Duracic, did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic
24 before the war?
25 A. Yes. I knew him from the 1980's on through
1 1992. We were acquaintances, I knew Zejnil casually,
2 but I was not part of his circle.
3 Q. Mr. Duracic, did you meet Mr. Zejnil Delalic
4 during the initial stages of the war in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and when did this first meeting
6 take place?
7 A. The first meeting between myself and
8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at the beginning of the war, took
9 place when I was tasked by the municipal TO staff to
10 work on the -- on securing the war presidency facility
11 in terms of engineering works. I was told that the war
12 presidency, but all the logistical support, that means
13 sand bags, construction material, cement blocks, et
14 cetera, that for all that material I needed to go to
15 Mr. Delalic.
16 Q. A moment ago you said that you were -- that
17 you attended a meeting on the 17th or 18th of May, when
18 you were appointed the chief of engineers. Can you
19 tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic attended this
21 A. No. By no means. Because -- I'm sorry. I
22 believe that at that time he was still in Zagreb.
23 Q. Based on what you knew then, did Mr. -- was
24 Mr. Delalic appointed at that time, or at any
25 subsequent time, to any duty in either the municipal
1 staff or the joint command?
2 A. The answer to this question is no.
3 Q. As a member of staff, did you learn at some
4 point in May, or thereabouts, that Mr. Delalic was
5 tasked with something by the war Presidency?
6 A. Yes. He was tasked to use his channels in
7 Zagreb to acquire some equipment and, if possible,
8 weapons for the joint command, and for the units
9 belonging to this joint command.
10 Q. Mr. Duracic, do you know that at some point
11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed coordinator?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell me whether you know who
14 appointed him?
15 A. It was the war Presidency.
16 Q. Mr. Duracic, was Zejnil Delalic's coordinator
17 ever superior officer to you?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Zejnil Delalic.
20 A. No. Zejnil Delalic was a civilian and I was
21 a soldier.
22 Q. Since, as you said, you were involved in
23 joint tasks, can you tell me whether Mr. Delalic, as
24 coordinator, had some officials or other persons who
25 were subordinate to him?
1 A. I don't think he did have -- the position of
2 coordinator is a position of an individual who works as
3 a go-between between two different structures.
4 Q. Mr. Duracic, as a soldier or member of the
5 joint staff, did you ever receive any order from
6 Mr. Delalic's coordinator?
7 A. No.
8 Q. My apologies to you, Mr. Duracic, for asking
9 you a hypothetical question, but had you received an
10 order signed by a coordinator, would this order be
11 obligating to you, or binding to you?
12 A. If it were only -- if it was only signed by a
13 coordinator, it would not be a binding order for me.
14 Q. At that time who could issue orders to you?
15 A. At that time only the commander of the
16 municipal TO or the commander of the joint command.
17 Q. Another potentially hypothetical question.
18 If the signatures of commanders, there was also a
19 signature of the coordinator on one of these documents,
20 would that -- would you interpret that as a document
21 issued by the coordinator?
22 A. No. Not at all.
23 Q. Mr. Duracic, as a soldier and member of the
24 staff, did you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic as
25 coordinator was in a position to appoint anyone?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Mr. Duracic, do you know a person named Jerko
4 A. Yes. Jerko Kostic was appointed assistant
5 commander for security, replacing the former assistant
6 commander for security, Mr. Goran Lokas.
7 Q. Mr. Duracic, who in the joint command or in
8 any other position was able to appoint persons of a
9 Croatian ethnic background at that time, according to
10 the knowledge that you have?
11 A. The persons of Croatian ethnic background
12 could only be appointed to the joint command by the
14 Q. Although this answer may exclude the
15 necessity for my following question, but, nevertheless,
16 in your personal knowledge, do you know whether Mr.
17 Delalic ever appointed Kostic at any function?
18 A. I have said recently that Delalic is a
19 civilian and a civilian cannot appoint military
21 Q. As a staff member, you probably know that
22 under the order of the commander, there was an unit
23 founded, which was supposed to be subordinated to TG-1,
24 could you tell me, Mr. Duraric, whether Mr. Delalic was
25 tasked concerning this particular unit?
1 A. Can you tell me which unit we are talking
3 Q. Do you know that in June, one unit from
4 Konjic left for the area of Pazaric and was
5 subordinated to TG-1?
6 A. Yes, I do. This is an unit under the name of
8 Q. Tell me, did somebody have certain tasks and
9 obligations for quipping that unit?
10 A. Yes, I believe that since this is one of the
11 obligations of the war Presidency, they tasked Zejnil
12 Delalic to equip the unit.
13 Q. Were you present when the unit left and
14 whether the headquarters -- was any mention how the
15 send off of the units should be done?
16 A. Yes, I was present. And at the headquarters,
17 it was arranged that Mr. Delalic be given the honour to
18 greet or to send off the unit because this was the
19 first equipped unit we had.
20 Q. Since you were present at the send off and
21 you also know for the arrangement, the headquarters,
22 can you tell me, Mr. Duraric, whether during this send
23 off relating to the Gajret unit, did Mr. Delalic have
24 any command authority over it?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Mr. Duraric, I will ask you something on
2 another topic. The tribunal has sufficient data that
3 the municipal staff planned and conducted the operation
4 directed toward Boracko Lake, under the name of Oganj.
5 And that prior to the operation, the HVO gave up its
6 taking part. Did you personally take part in the
7 preparation in the planning of the operation?
8 A. Not only me, but the entire joint command.
9 All the branches of the armed forces, the head of the
10 headquarters and brigade commanders, they all took part
11 in the planning of that action, which was directed
12 toward liberating of our occupied territories. And
13 Boracko Jezero UCA.
14 Q. Mr. Duraric, can you tell me whether Mr.
15 Delalic took part together with you in the joint
16 command in the planning of this particular combat
18 A. No. No, because at that time he was still a
20 Q. After the commencement of the operation, who
21 was in charge of it?
22 A. The commander was. The commander of joint
23 command, Esad Ramic.
24 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, take part, direct
25 participation in the operation?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you tell me what was your function and
3 what was your location, where were you during the
4 combat operations?
5 A. I was in Vranske Stijene. This is where we
6 had one of the centres for communications for the Oganj
7 Operation. The station was under the number Oganj 1.
8 Q. I was warned that the transcript may have
9 been -- there may have been an error in the
10 transcript. You said the commander of the operation
11 was a commander of the municipal staff?
12 A. No, commander of the joint command.
13 Q. What is his name?
14 A. Esad Ramic.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me now, since you
16 were Vranske Stijene during the operation, how long did
17 the operation take?
18 A. It lasted a little bit over one month. And
19 the number of units for performing of tactical tasks
20 remained there longer.
21 Q. During all that time at Vranske Stijene was
22 there Mr. Delalic with you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Duraric, what were your
25 tasks, what jobs were yours at Vranske Stijene?
1 A. I was there as the head of the engineering
2 services and my task was to give security and
3 engineering to secure the directions of the attack.
4 And since this is an area between Bridiko (translation
5 interrupted) and it's a mountainous region, I had to
6 break through for certain links to establish the roads
7 because until then --
8 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on). It's not
9 his task.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC:
11 Q. But I would like to know, since you were at
12 the same place, what were Delalic's tasks?
13 A. Mr. Delalic, since he had a two month
14 experience by then concerning logistical support and so
15 his only task was to transfer requests from units
16 towards the municipal headquarters towards -- through
17 communication links concerning logistical support and
18 security of units.
19 Q. Since you said that this was also a
20 communication centre, Oganj 1, one of the centres, did
21 you and Mr. Delalic report to that centre? Did you use
23 JUDGE JAN: I think the transcript is again
24 wrong. I said you should ask about the task of Zejnil
25 Delalic and not his task. I don't know, what does it
1 mean? There are so many mistakes about the remarks
2 that I make. I am very sorry about it.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise because I cannot
4 follow the transcript at the same time. But my first
5 question referred to functions of Mr. Duraric and the
6 second one for Mr. Delalic. I believe this was also
7 interpreted in the manner and the responses were
8 according to that. It is impossible for me and for my
9 colleague who does not understand our language to
10 follow. We will speak slowly so that interpreters
11 could interpret because such situations were not in the
12 best of interest of the court.
13 THE WITNESS: It must have been interpreted
14 wrongly. The first question was, what were my
15 functions at Vranske Stijene?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC:
17 Q. And you then described your engineering
18 services, is it true?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The second question posed to you referred to
21 tasks of Mr. Delalic.
22 A. I also described that.
23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Duraric, since you were together
24 with Mr. Delalic for a month at the same spot, was
25 there at any moment, Mr. Delalic your commander? Was
1 he in command over you?
2 A. No, I have already said that. He was drafted
3 just recently. He was an ordinary soldier and I was
4 already the head of the engineering staff.
5 Q. In addition to you, who was also at that spot
6 at Vranske Stijene?
7 A. During the first days of the operation, in
8 addition to me and Mr. Delalic, we had the commander of
9 joint command, although by that time the HVO gave up
10 participation, then the head of the headquarters, Mr.
11 Cerovac. At that time, he was assistant commander for
12 operative tasks.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't concentrate on Mr.
14 Delalic at all. I thought he's your client.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Honourable Chamber, I will
16 repeat the question concerning tasks of Mr. Delalic if
17 it was misinterpreted. The witness did answer. Please
18 tell me what tasks at Vranske Stijene during that one
19 month on the conduct of the operation did Mr. Delalic
21 A. During the operation at Vranske Stijene, and
22 not at Vranske Stijene, but during the operation,
23 Zejnil Delalic had the task that upon a request of
24 units who participated in combat operations, if they
25 need equipment, they would request that from him
1 because it could not -- they could not communicate
2 directly with the main centre in Konjic, so he
3 transferred those requests to Mr. Catic or Tahirovic.
4 Q. Again, because of the transcript errors, did
5 at any moment of the Operation Borci, Mr. Delalic was
6 in charge to you personally or any other soldiers who
7 took part in the operation?
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. Mr. Duraric, would you also tell me whether
10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, concerning the tasks he performed,
11 was he able to give out orders to the engineering
12 services to the artillery or some other type units
13 which participated in the operation?
14 A. I don't know how many times I need to
15 repeat. I have said several times, Zejnil Delalic
16 could not give out orders to nobody in the operation.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
18 (Microphone not on). Not less than four times here.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I
20 believe this wasn't clear enough.
21 Q. Since you were at Vranske Stijene during the
22 entire period, at the place where you were situated,
23 were there certain visits from Konjic or from other
24 some other places?
25 A. At the area of Vranske Stijene, since the
1 operation took longer, longer period of time, and the
2 commander and commander in chief, Mr. Cerovac, had to
3 see the units, they would return in a day or two and I
4 remember that once the President of the war Presidency
5 himself came. I don't remember anybody else's visit.
6 Q. Mr. Duraric, do you remember that at any
7 period were there foreigners in that area?
8 A. Yes, I do. I believe they introduced
9 themselves as being journalists from some Arab
10 countries. I do not remember exactly which country,
11 was in question. There was a cameraman, a journalist
12 and a translator.
13 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, were you personally
14 present to the conversation that journalist had with
15 Mr. Delalic?
16 A. Yes, at all times.
17 Q. Can you tell us in brief what they talked
19 A. They were mainly interested in why the war
20 began and then Delalic explained that there was an
21 aggression in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the people --
22 there was an uprising among the people to defend
24 Then he also spoke about poor equipment of
25 our soldiers. They were poorly equipped with arms and
1 supplies. Then he spoke about how western countries
2 still do not realise that this was an aggression
3 directed towards us and that the Arab countries get
4 very little help.
5 Q. Mr. Duraric, please tell me whether during
6 your conversation with the journalist, did anybody of
7 the present introduce Mr. Delalic as a commander?
8 A. No, by all means (sic).
9 Q. How were you introduced to each other then?
10 A. Just by our names.
11 Q. Since the chamber saw a few shots from the
12 area, a few excerpts, can you to tell me whether at
13 that region, were there any notices or signs written in
14 a foreign language?
15 A. Yes, there were. I believe that you and the
16 Chamber will understand that the lessons were
17 participants in the war, people of 18, 19, 20, up to 22
18 years of age. And to prove to themselves how big they
19 are, they would write such signs, such as pentagon,
20 NATO and others.
21 Q. Was there anywhere a sign saying, "The Main
22 Regional Commander"?
23 A. No, never. At least I haven't seen it.
24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Duraric, did in Konjic exist at
25 all the commander of our region at that time?
1 A. No, it never did and it still does not.
2 Q. Mr. Duraric, did those soldiers maybe write a
3 sign that would mention in office?
4 A. I have said everything. I believe the sign
5 said what I already said. It was under a tent which
6 could contain until two soldiers. And I believe my
7 older son, and another soldier under the name of Irfan
8 wrote that.
9 Q. I would now ask to show the tape 2, just a
10 brief excerpt from Vranske Stijene to see whether the
11 witness knows the shots. It is only about a second or
12 two. Tape 1.
13 (Videotape played)
14 Q. Were you able to see, Mr. Duraric?
15 A. No, the monitor doesn't show it.
16 Q. Would you please rewind the tape and you
17 press the first button stating "Video Monitor." Could
18 you play it now, please.
19 (Videotape played)
20 A. Yes, this is the sign at the bottom.
21 Q. Continue please. Can the camera go up?
22 (Videotape played)
23 A. Yes, this is it.
24 Q. Thank you very much. It is tape used as
25 Prosecutor's evidence, Number 146. Do you, Mr.
1 Duraric, can you claim in full face that this is the
2 only sign that was created in the way that you
3 mentioned and found in the area where you were?
4 A. Yes, I fully acknowledge that.
5 Q. I would now like to ask you whether during
6 the operation, at a given time, was there a change in
7 the command post of the operation?
8 A. No, there was no change.
9 JUDGE JAN: Esad Ramic was injured and he
10 took over.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, that is it. Thank you.
12 Q. I would now ask you, Mr. Duraric, something
13 connected to a new topic. You, as Konjic person, know
14 of the blockade of the road in Bradina and the combat
15 operations directed to it, can you tell me whether you
16 personally had ever any contact with the barracks and
17 the detention facility in Celebici?
18 A. Yes, with the barracks, but never with the
20 Q. When and how many times did you visit the
21 barracks in Celebici?
22 A. When I gave my solemn statement.
23 Q. Although you were not personally connected to
24 the prison, did you know that the army barracks also
25 contained one?
1 A. Yes, I did. Almost everybody in Konjic knew
2 that there are detainees in Celebici and members of
3 SDS. We captured those people when we liberated
5 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, ever find out about
6 mistreatment of those prisoners or an abuse of them?
7 A. No. Although, my younger son during the
8 first days had a post in the prison. He never
9 mentioned any mistreatment.
10 Q. Mr. Duraric, tell me something about
11 something else I wanted to ask you. Did you at a
12 certain moment find out that Mr. Delalic was appointed
13 as a military commander?
14 A. Yes, we were at Vranske Stijene together
15 when, through communication links, from the
16 headquarters in Konjic, he learned that he was
17 appointed commander of TG-1. For all of us it was
18 great honour.
19 Q. Can you tell the chamber when this happened
20 exactly? When you found out at Vranske Stijene through
21 your communication links that Mr. Delalic was appointed
22 to the post?
23 A. It could have been around the end of July. I
24 do not remember exactly, but between the 27th and the
25 29th, I am pretty sure.
1 Q. I have a hypothetical question, Mr. Duraric.
2 Would it have been possible that Mr. Delalic, appointed
3 to this function earlier without his knowledge, without
4 it being communicated to him and without you knowing
5 about it at Vranske Stijene?
6 A. It was impossible not to know if such an
7 order came to the headquarters or the joint command in
8 Konjic. That same moment it had to be communicated to
9 the position where Mr. Delalic was.
10 Q. Mr. Duraric, can you claim that Mr. Delalic
11 was at Vranske Stijene until the end of July until the
12 moment he learned of the order of the notification?
13 A. 100 per cent.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your honourable chamber, is
15 it time for a break?
16 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on.)
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: About another ten questions.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's likely to testify
19 to. And you must have covered them all by now. Plus
20 ten more irrelevant questions. The Trial Chamber will
21 now rise and we'll come back at 2.30 p.m..
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.
1 --- Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.
2 (The witness entered court)
3 MS. MCMURREY: Your Honours, I ask the court
4 to excuse Ms. Boler for the rest of the afternoon.
5 Thank you.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I remind you, sir, that you
7 are still under oath.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, yes.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed. Proceed,
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your
12 Honours. Just a moment, please.
13 Q. Mr. Duracic, you will recall that before the
14 break we left off when you testified that in late July,
15 between 27 and 29, you learned that Mr. Delalic was
16 appointed to the commander of the Tactical Group 1. Do
17 you recall this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Duracic, can you please tell me whether
20 at that time you became a superior officer to
21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did Mr. Delalic at that point become a
24 superior officer in charge of the municipal
1 A. No. Commander of the Tactical Group has
2 command and control only of the units which were --
3 which he was given to carry out the particular task.
4 Q. Mr. Duracic, did you at any time during the
5 period while Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical
6 Group 1, yourself a member of the Tactical Group 1?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And did you, during the period of time when
9 Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical Group 1, were a
10 soldier of the Tactical Group 1 and subordinate to
11 Mr. Delalic?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Duracic, I am going to ask you another
14 hypothetical question. Had you, as a member of the
15 joint command of municipal staff of TO Konjic receive
16 an order from Mr. Delalic's commander of Tactical Group
17 1, would this order have been a binding one for you?
18 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered that
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said that he was not
21 subordinate. My additional question to him was whether
22 he would still carry out an order which he might have
23 received from commander of Tactical Group. However, if
24 this -- if you believe that this is implied in his
25 answer that he could not carry out an order from a
1 person who was not his commander, then I am satisfied.
2 However, I am giving the witness an additional option
3 to answer this question.
4 A. No. In no way. It is only my immediate
5 commander who is -- whose orders were binding to me.
6 Q. Very well, Mr. Duracic, just a very brief
7 area of questioning. You testified before this
8 Tribunal that Mr. Delalic provided significant
9 logistical support of the Territorial Defence and the
10 defence forces of Konjic. As a citizen of Konjic, do
11 you know whether other citizens of Konjic also provided
12 assistance to the defence forces of -- in as much as
13 they could?
14 A. Of course. All citizens of Konjic who had
15 any financial means did provide assistance, and they
16 provided their financial and other support in provision
17 of the necessary material, and Mr. Zejnil Delalic was
18 certainly one of them.
19 I only want to point out that as a business
20 person who had spent a fair amount of time in the west,
21 he was much better connected, and he was able to --
22 much easier provide materials and equipment that we
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Duracic. This is enough in a
25 way of an answer to the question that I asked.
1 As a member of the defence forces in Konjic,
2 do you know whether in 1992 certain formations, like
3 Green Berets or Patriotic League, or other organised
4 groups, were active in the Konjic area?
5 A. No. I emphatically stated, with the
6 exception of the HVO, the Army, and the MUP, there were
7 no other armed formations in existence.
8 Q. You spent one month in Vranske Stijene in the
9 rugged terrain with Mr. Delalic, and you worked in the
10 field with him in 1992. Can you tell me whether you
11 ever heard or personally see that Mr. Delalic had any
12 responsibility or authority over the Celebici prison?
13 A. No, I had no such knowledge.
14 Q. On the basis of your personal knowledge of
15 these events, did you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic
16 has any kind of control over the staff in the prison or
17 the authority to punish these persons?
18 A. No. As I stated previously, I had no
19 connection with the prison. It was not part of my
20 responsibilities, so I was not in a position to know
21 whether Mr. Delalic had any authority there.
22 Q. And while you were together at the Vranske
23 Stijene, did you ever notice that Mr. Delalic had any
24 contact or connection with either the staff or the
25 prison in Celebici?
1 A. Again, I emphasise no.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Mr. Duracic.
3 This concludes my questioning. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?
5 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. OLUJIK:
6 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, Your Honours. May it please
7 the court.
8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Duracic, I am Mr. Olujic,
9 I am defence counsel for Zdravko Mucic. I would like
10 to ask several questions. I will be brief.
11 I just want to restate what my learned
12 colleague has already said, that we need to take into
13 account the needs for interpreting, and I just want to
14 recall that warning.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Duracic, during your
17 examination-in-chief, while my colleague,
18 Ms. Residovic, questioned you, you mentioned names of
19 Mr. Lokas and Mr. Kostic as persons who were in that --
20 in this investigative commission. Is that correct?
21 A. No, that is not what I said. What I stated
22 was that Mr. Goran Lokas was assistant commander for
23 security in the municipal staff, and after his traffic
24 accident he was replaced by Mr. Kostic.
25 Q. Very well. Can you tell me, Mr. Duracic,
1 whether Mr. Lokas was in charge of security? Would it
2 be correct to say that Mr. Lokas was under the
3 authority of the public security station?
4 A. No. It is possible that he had been
5 previously, but when he became member of the joint
6 command, he was under the authority of the commander of
7 the joint command.
8 Q. And could you please tell me where Mr. Kostic
9 used to work previously?
10 A. I do not know where he worked previously, but
11 I only know that he came from Mostar.
12 Q. However, you do not know where he worked?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Sir, could we say that in the
15 spring and summer of 1992, due to different
16 circumstances, the population of the Konjic
17 municipality was inadequately armed and organised?
18 A. Could you please repeat the question?
19 Q. In the spring of 1992, could we say that the
20 population was not sufficiently armed and organised to
21 counter what happened thereafter?
22 A. We certainly could.
23 Q. Very well. Would you agree that after the
24 fall of Bradina, which you mentioned, there were still
25 gangs of Chetniks roaming around the woods?
1 A. Yes, you could say that.
2 Q. Now, could we also agree that there were
3 other renegades and bandits around?
4 A. What do you mean by the others?
5 Q. What I mean is not just the Chetniks, but
6 others as well who roamed around and they were armed
7 and a threat to law and peace, law and order?
8 A. No.
9 MR. OLUJIK: Mr. Duracic, this concludes my
10 examination. I have no further questions. Thank you.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Judge
12 Jan noticed certain misinterpretation. We have just
13 seen a misinterpretation which is completely opposite
14 of what the question that I asked was. On page 68,
15 line 10 it states whether I had asked whether
16 Mr. Duracic was a superior officer to Mr. Delalic. My
17 question was whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic had became a
18 superior officer to Mr. Duracic after he had become the
19 commander of Tactical Group 1.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: So can we please have the
22 transcript corrected.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
24 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, defence counsel
25 of Hazim Delic has no questions for this witness.
1 MS. MCMURREY: May it please the court.
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed. Do
3 you have any questions?
4 MS. MCMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, like
5 Mr. Moran, very few.
6 EXAMINED BY MS. MCMURREY:
7 Q. Mr. Duracic, good afternoon.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. I am Ms. McMurrey and I represent Mr. Esad
11 From your testimony to my colleague,
12 Ms. Residovic, I believe you stated that immediately
13 upon the call for mobilisation you joined the
14 Territorial Defence. Isn't that accurate?
15 JUDGE JAN: He didn't mention the call, but
16 he said immediately he joined.
17 MS. MCMURREY: I guess it was my
18 interpretation of it. If you say so.
19 Q. But you did join immediately?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, in fact, when you joined, your two sons
22 joined along with you, didn't they?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you knew Mr. Esad Landzo as he was
25 growing up, didn't you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In fact, you and your family not only lived
3 on the same street of 15th of September Street, but you
4 lived in the same apartment building, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, the same stairwell.
6 Q. And one of your sons was about the same age
7 as Mr. Landzo, wasn't he?
8 A. Yes, the younger son, the late one.
9 Q. In fact, when you say the late son, that son
10 was killed in an automobile accident in 1996; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But your son was a friend of Mr. Landzo's
14 while they were growing up; is that right?
15 A. Of course.
16 Q. Now, do you remember Mr. Landzo as a boy?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Wouldn't it be true to say that he was a kind
19 of withdrawn young man?
20 A. Yes, something like that.
21 Q. And another thing about your apartment
22 building. In your apartment building, Serbs, Croats
23 and Muslims all lived in harmony together, until the
24 war broke out, and there wasn't any prejudice among
25 you, was there?
1 A. Certainly.
2 Q. And your late son that grew up with
3 Mr. Landzo, he was one of the young recruits for the
4 Territorial Defence that was transferred to Celebici
5 sometime in the middle of June of 1992; isn't that
7 A. It was in the first week of June, and he only
8 stayed there for one week.
9 Q. Your son was there for one week; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your son never mentioned any mistreatment
13 of any prisoners while he was there, did he?
14 A. No, not at all, because in all likelihood
15 there wasn't any.
16 Q. And all of these young men that were sent to
17 Celebici, they were all 18, 19, 20 years old, with no
18 former military experience; wouldn't that be accurate?
19 A. I don't know who was in Celebici.
20 Q. Well, your son and Mr. Landzo, you know for a
21 fact that they had never served in the JNA, they had
22 never served any military duty before, had they?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And my one last question is: If you can
25 remember, your street and your apartment building in
1 Konjic suffered from heavy shelling and several people
2 were killed in front of everybody. Would that be
3 accurate to say?
4 A. That is correct.
5 MS. MCMURREY: I have no further questions,
6 Your Honour. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Duracic.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions of the
8 Prosecution, please.
9 CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. NIEMANN:
10 Q. You said that you had met Mr. Delalic when
11 you were providing -- when you -- I withdraw the
12 question, Your Honour.
13 When you were providing security for the war
14 Presidency, you met Mr. Delalic at that stage; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And who gave the orders to provide security
18 at the war Presidency building?
19 A. I received the order from the commander of
20 the municipal staff.
21 Q. And you were working with Mr. Delalic on this
22 project, jointly with him?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What exactly were -- what exactly was the
25 relationship between you at that stage?
1 A. It was just simple a acquaintance.
2 Q. Why wasn't this work carried out by the civil
3 defence, or the MUP?
4 A. Simply because I was a specialist for the
5 area. I was captain first class in the former army.
6 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Delalic was sent to
7 Zagreb by the war Presidency. Were you aware that he
8 had also received authority from the Ministry of
9 Defence in Sarajevo in relation to this project?
10 A. What project are you referring to?
11 Q. To acquire arms and equipment in May of 1992?
12 A. I did not know that he had received it,
13 because I was in no position to do so. It was not
14 within my authority to know these things.
15 Q. Now, if you were aware that he was authorised
16 by the -- he was authorised by the war Presidency to
17 enter in joint actions of troops at this time, that is
18 in May of 1992, would that alter your opinion as to
19 whether or not he had a military function to perform?
20 JUDGE JAN: Please ask the first question.
21 The question is in two parts, that he was ordered to
22 join the joint staff, and then ask the next question.
23 MR. NIEMANN: If -- I don't want to ask the
24 first question, because it doesn't lead to the end
25 result of what I want to do. But I'll ask him whether
1 he was aware of the special authorisation, and perhaps
2 it might be shown to him.
3 Might the witness be shown Exhibit 99-7-4,
5 Just look to paragraph 3, if you would for
6 me, please. Now, I take it you haven't seen this
7 document before?
8 A. I have not seen this document before either.
9 Q. Now, it's dated 2nd of May 1992. Looking at
10 paragraph 3, does that paragraph alter your opinion as
11 to whether or not at that stage, in May of 1992, he had
12 any military function to perform?
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness has
14 not seen the document before. He has already stated
15 his knowledge about the duties of Mr. Delalic at that
16 period and he did it very clearly.
17 MR. NIEMANN: I am asking him to express his
18 opinion after seeing something he hadn't seen.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was not an opinion.
20 MR. NIEMANN: He expressed an opinion
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're now asking him
23 whether he was having military responsibility at that
24 time. That's not an opinion. It's a statement of
1 MR. NIEMANN: I don't mind if it's a fact,
2 Your Honour.
3 Q. Do you believe that that changes the facts?
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he doesn't
5 know. (Microphone not on).
6 THE WITNESS: I did not understand the
7 question of the Prosecutor at all, actually.
8 MR. NIEMANN:
9 Q. Well, you said that in May of 1992, Mr.
10 Delalic performed only a civil function. I am asking
11 you to look at this document, which is in May of 1992,
12 and in particular, at paragraph 3. After having read
13 that, I am asking you, do you still say that he only
14 performed a civilian function?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, the
16 witness stated what his knowledge was in 1992 and these
17 are facts.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that document he said
19 what he knew. As far as he knew he performed a civil
21 MR. NIEMANN:
22 Q. So, having a look at that document, you are
23 wrong when you express that opinion, is that right?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he said was not an
25 opinion. It was a fact known to him. I don't think he
1 could be reprimanded because he did not know something
2 has happened. That's a different matter. He did not
3 say that it never happened.
4 MR. NIEMANN: If you had two states of
5 affairs, Your Honour, one which he believes to be the
6 position and one which is demonstrated by documentary
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not know this.
9 MR. NIEMANN: If he doesn't know about it,
10 then clearly it's a legitimate course of
11 cross-examination to demonstrate that he didn't
12 have these disposed war facts which enabled him to
13 express his views on something. That's what I am
14 seeking to do. I'll move on.
15 JUDGE JAN: Does that document refer to a
16 military function?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE JAN: What is the document?
19 MR. NIEMANN: It says, all kinds of
20 agreements on possible joint actions of troops from
21 other areas. Your Honours, perhaps, the document can
22 be shown to you. But I'll move on, Your Honour.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's moving on.
25 (Microphone not on). So don't worry about it.
1 MR. NIEMANN:
2 Q. Now, you say that when you were with Mr.
3 Delalic at Vranske Stijene -- I think I have got the
4 pronunciation of that correct -- that he was there
5 until the end of July. Are you saying at no stage he
6 returned to Konjic during the month of July?
7 A. I have said that Vranske Stijene, being the
8 terrain it is, we had no water, no electrical power, he
9 could only leave in the afternoon and return in the
10 evening to maybe take a bath. But I guarantee he has
11 not done that more than once or twice.
12 Q. Are you aware that while Mr. Delalic was at
13 Vranske Stijene, he signed a release document for
14 Celebici for a prisoner in Celebici, were you aware of
16 A. Yes, I am. I was personally present.
17 Q. Now, had Mr. Cerovac asked you to sign the
18 release document on his behalf, would you have done
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell me, when you're at Vranske Stijene, what
22 was the structure of the command? I believe you had no
23 ranks at that stage. That's correct, isn't it?
24 A. No, we did not have ranks, but we had
1 Q. I see. And Mr. Delalic had a position?
2 A. No, he was just an ordinary soldier.
3 Q. I see. So what distinguished an ordinary
4 soldier from a person with a position?
5 A. An appointed person has a responsibility.
6 Q. I see. But how would the ordinary foot
7 soldier come to know that? You don't carry your
8 authorisation around with you all the time, I take it?
9 A. I do not understand, who wouldn't know?
10 Q. How would the ordinary foot soldier know that
11 you're the person in command and authority and you had
12 no ranks, you only had positions, how did they
13 differentiate between people with no command and people
14 with authority?
15 A. Each commander of a basic unit knew who is
16 his commander and who are the personnel within the
18 Q. What's a basic unit, tell me about this, what
19 is it? How many people are in it?
20 A. The lowest unit was a squad, nine fighters,
21 plus a commander.
22 Q. And what squad was Mr. Delalic in?
23 A. We did not have squads when it comes to him.
24 He was a part of our communications.
25 Q. Well, who was his immediate commander, if he
1 was just an ordinary foot soldier?
2 A. Both his and my commander was Esad Ramic.
3 Q. Now, if he was in charge of communications,
4 isn't that a position?
5 A. No, since it was a communication station to
6 connect to other station, the main centre for
7 communication was in Konjic where the head of
8 communications was Mr. Sultanic Arif.
9 Q. So at this particular time, it's a fact,
10 isn't it, the soldiers wouldn't have known who their
11 commanders were, wouldn't necessarily have known who
12 their commanders were?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remember, Sultanic has
14 been here, one of the witnesses for the Defence has
15 been here, has been in charge of the communications
17 MR. NIEMANN:
18 Q. Was Mr. Sultanic, Mr. Delalic's commander,
19 was he?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not at that time.
21 THE WITNESS: Only for that particular task.
22 MR. NIEMANN:
23 Q. So Mr. Sultanic was there giving orders to
24 Mr. Delalic?
25 A. No audible answer.
1 Q. What about knowing about who was in command
2 of other units? How would soldiers know who was in
3 charge of other units or had authority over them, apart
4 from their own?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has already
6 responded that each soldier knew who his commander was,
7 and all the commanders knew who the staff members of
8 the headquarters were.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Well, if Madam Residovic cares
10 to read the transcript, she will know that I asked the
12 Q. Which is, how did the soldiers know who the
13 commanders of other units were?
14 A. You do not necessarily have to know who the
15 commanders of other units were. He only needs to know
16 who his immediate commander is.
17 Q. You mentioned the visit to the mountain by
18 the Arab journalists, who brought them up to the place
19 where you and Mr. Delalic were at the time?
20 A. They were brought by our courier. Before
21 that they visited the office of the commander and our
22 positions of artillery.
23 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that
24 it was considered in your best interest to assist these
25 journalists and to provide them with information, so
1 that could in turn be transmitted to the international
3 A. In any case.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.
5 MR. NIEMANN:
6 Q. Why did they introduce the Arab journalists
7 from overseas, who had come here especially to conduct
8 this interview to an ordinary foot soldier?
9 A. I have no knowledge of why they were
11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of why the person
12 that was to speak on behalf of the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that location happened to be an
14 ordinary foot soldier?
15 A. I don't know whether this foot soldier was to
16 speak for the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that was
17 the choice most likely made by the reporter.
18 Q. So, is it the customary practice of the army
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is it, to have ordinary foot
20 soldiers speak on their behalf to foreign journalists?
21 A. Until they were forbidden to do so.
22 Q. Now, didn't you say that during the Oganj
23 Operation, military operation, operation fire, I think
24 it's known as, Mr. Delalic had a logistics problem,
25 didn't he?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You'd agree with me that the provision of
3 logistics, especially in the field in the face of
4 battle is a military function?
5 A. Yes, but only during combat operations.
6 Q. Now, how did you know that the war Presidency
7 appointed Mr. Delalic as a coordinator?
8 A. I knew because I was a member of staff of the
9 joint command.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't know that this
11 was in issue at all, his appointment as a coordinator.
12 MR. NIEMANN:
13 Q. Do you know of anybody else who, or have you
14 ever heard of anybody else being appointed to the role
15 of coordinator in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at
16 that time?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not a question at
18 issue and it did not refer to the army of
20 MR. NIEMANN: I am asking if he knew someone
21 in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who was appointed to
22 the role of coordinator at that time. It's a simple
23 yes or no answer.
24 THE WITNESS: You have to tell me who should
25 he coordinate with?
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Naturally
2 Dr. Dzambajovic clearly stated it wasn't uncommon to
3 appoint such a person as coordinator. It wasn't new.
4 So I don't see what this gentleman would say again.
5 Because that was the function of who appointed Delalic
6 as coordinator. He didn't find it strange.
7 MR. NIEMANN:
8 Q. Now, who provided the necessary engineering
9 support for Tactical Group 1?
10 A. Do you mean the Operation Borci?
11 JUDGE JAN: TG-1.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Tactical Group 1.
13 JUDGE JAN: TG-1 was with regard to the
14 lifting off the siege of Sarajevo.
15 THE WITNESS: I do not know who supplied
16 engineering support.
17 MR. NIEMANN:
18 Q. I'll ask the witness to see Exhibit 193. I
19 have copies, Your Honour, of the exhibit. Have you
20 ever seen that before?
21 A. No, this is the first time.
22 Q. And your name appears there, does it not, as
23 the head of engineering?
24 A. Yes, I have read it.
25 Q. If you'd received a copy of this order, would
1 you have obeyed it?
2 A. No chance.
3 Q. Why not?
4 A. There's no signature by my commander.
5 Q. I see. Well, how do you know that isn't an
6 order that had been sent to you on behalf of your
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness
9 said he has never seen the document and to my question
10 that his answer was he was never a member of command of
11 a tactical group. I do not see the point in these
13 MR. NIEMANN:
14 Q. How would you know that it hadn't been sent
15 out on behalf of your commander?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. I repeat the
17 objection, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see how it
19 concerns him.
20 MR. NIEMANN: It's his name, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It doesn't matter. He
22 said it wasn't signed by his commander. He said as
23 long as it wasn't signed by his commander, he would not
24 have obeyed it. That's what he said. You're now
25 asking whether it was signed on behalf of his
1 commander, unknown to him.
2 MR. NIEMANN:
3 Q. If it hadn't been signed on behalf of your
4 commander, you wouldn't have known that, would you?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I did not understand the
7 MR. NIEMANN:
8 Q. Well, I am asking you, you say that you
9 definitely wouldn't obey this order if you had received
10 it. Now my next question to you is, but how would you
11 know that it hadn't been sent out on behalf of the
12 supreme command in Sarajevo, which was ultimately your
13 commander, wasn't it?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I repeat the objection
15 because this is an inauthentic document.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can answer it.
17 THE WITNESS: First of all, I would have
18 known because the preamble states, the Republic of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the army of B and H Tactical Group
20 1, and instead of TG-1, it should have said, municipal
21 staff, municipal headquarters of the Territorial
22 Defence or the joint command for Konjic. There should
23 have been full name of the commander underneath,
24 together with his signature.
25 MR. NIEMANN:
1 Q. Now you said in part of your evidence that
2 you -- that some of the people that you captured when
3 you liberated Bradina were sent to Celebici, do you
4 remember saying that?
5 A. I have not said that.
6 Q. What did you say? Perhaps, I have got the
7 transcript incorrectly noted in my notes.
8 A. I said that when we liberated Bradina, they
9 captured and the entire Town of Konjic knew that these
10 captured people were taken to the barracks in
12 Q. Who took them to the barracks in Celebici?
13 A. I do not know that.
14 Q. You mentioned that your son was in Celebici
15 for a week, he was in the Territorial Defence, was he,
16 when he went to Celebici?
17 A. I am not sure whether he was in a member of
18 the Territorial Defence. I think he was a reserve for
19 the police.
20 Q. Now, I think you had mentioned at one stage
21 that the President of the war Presidency came to the
22 theatre of operations, military operations, when you
23 and Mr. Delalic were there together, do you remember
24 saying that?
25 A. I do remember, but he was not within the zone
1 of combat operations, but he came to the communications
2 centre of Oganj 1 Operation at Vranske Stijene.
3 Q. Did he converse with both you and Mr.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was he doing there, just inspecting
7 or what?
8 A. The war Presidency has its obligation to
9 support and supply their units, so he came to see what
10 our needs were.
11 Q. The war Presidency at a local level is also
12 responsible for the political direction of operations
13 in order to protect the municipality, isn't it?
14 A. No. This is solely under the authority of
15 the Territorial Defence.
16 Q. So are you suggesting that the municipality
17 and the war Presidency has no interest in the
18 preservation and protection of the municipality?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't appreciate
21 this cross-examination.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Had the President of the war
23 Presidency, it should have been clarified then (sic).
24 MR. NIEMANN: Could you answer my question,
1 THE WITNESS: I did not say that this was not
2 an obligation of the war Presidency, but their
3 obligation is to support and supply the units which
4 perform tasks of defence of the territorial
6 MR. NIEMANN:
7 Q. Did you attend meetings of the war Presidency
8 or attend meetings where members of the war Presidency
9 were present?
10 A. No, never.
11 Q. Did you ever have the task of providing
12 information to the war Presidency --
13 A. No.
14 Q. I'll just show you a document, if I may. And
15 I have a copy for Your Honours. Just looking the at
16 the second paragraph of that document, if you would, is
17 what I am mainly interested in.
18 A. I have never seen this document and I
19 wouldn't wish to discuss it.
20 Q. I just want to know from you whether the
21 reference in the second paragraph is a reference to the
22 chief of engineers services, whether that's a reference
23 to you? Says, "Introduction by Chief of Engineers
24 Service". And it may not be, I am just asking if it
25 relates to you.
1 A. If this were referred to me, it is most
2 likely that I would have received this document.
3 Q. You don't remember seeing it though?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you understand my question? My question
6 simply was, the reference there in paragraph number 2,
7 "The Chief of Engineer Service," is that a reference
8 to your title and position or was there some other
9 position occupied by somebody else who was called
10 "Chief of Engineer Service"? That is really my
12 A. The municipal staff and the joint command
13 that would be me. But, I repeat, had this paper
14 referred to me, I would have received it.
15 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: No re-examination, Your
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I
21 think you are discharged. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have the next
1 witness. I will call him. However, I need to let you
2 know that I personally do not feel quite well today and
3 if I am unable to continue with full concentration, I
4 will let you know.
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have a co-counsel,
6 who can carry on, on your behalf.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but you are aware of the
8 fact that one counsel is engaged in preparation of a
9 single witness. I will do my utmost and I ask for you
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Incidentally before you
12 start, I see in the next list of witnesses you filed,
13 you're indicating that at some time your witnesses 1
14 through 7 are able to travel to The Hague between the
15 2nd of June and the 12th. That your witnesses 8
16 through 14 are able to travel, to testify, the week
17 22nd to 26th. Is that what you really intend to do?
18 You know that you cannot do that. I indicated to you
19 before we went on, for this holiday, one day holiday,
20 that you have to supplement your number of witnesses to
21 ensure that we take all of them. You now remember that
22 I said that?
23 Now, you think you can stall the progress of
24 the Trial Chamber by refusing to bring your witnesses.
25 This is what you intend to do. Well, you will have to
1 get updated and let them be here because we'll carry on
2 until your witnesses are exhausted. The Trial Chamber
3 will continue sitting. We will not, for any reason,
4 have a break for that purpose. If you are unable to
5 complete, you have to close your case. Call your
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I will ask you
8 that -- to hear me out before this testimony. We have
9 done whatever we could, however, these witnesses have
10 their professional obligations. We have talked to
11 their managers, we have talked to some other people who
12 are in the United States. They had expected to be here
13 at another time.
14 JUDGE JAN: Please call all your witnesses.
15 We'll examine them.
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 WITNESS: ASIM DZAMBASOVIC
22 EXAMINED BY MS. RESIDOVIC:
23 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the
1 court by stating your full first and last names.
2 A. I am Asim Dzambasovic.
3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, before I proceed to ask you
4 questions which I have prepared, I need to draw your
5 attention to a technical point. We both speak the same
6 language and you would be able to very quickly and
7 easily respond to all of my questions. However, it is
8 very important that each question and answer is heard
9 by the Trial Chamber and everybody else present here in
10 the courtroom. Given this fact, will you please, when
11 I ask you a question, you wait until it is being
12 interpreted, and you will be able to hear the
13 interpretation coming through a headset on the desk
14 next to you, and only then answer the question.
15 Did you understand what I just told you,
16 Mr. Dzambasovic?
17 A. Yes, I fully understood it.
18 Q. Thank you, sir.
19 A. Your welcome.
20 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell me where and
21 when you were born?
22 A. I was born on 27 June 1949 in Rogatica in
24 Q. Can you tell me what was your formal
25 education and when you acquired it?
1 A. I completed my elementary school in Rogatica,
2 teachers college in Sarajevo, military academy in
3 Belgrade, and superior military academy in Belgrade.
4 Q. So what is your profession, Mr. Dzambasovic?
5 A. I am a professional officer by profession.
6 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell the court what
7 is your rank today in the Army of the
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation?
9 A. I have the rank of a brigadier.
10 Q. Brigadier. Where were you on 6 April 1992,
11 when the war in Herzegovina, Bosnia-Herzegovina broke
13 A. On 6 April 1992, I was with the Yugoslav
14 People's Army and I was specifically at Han Pijesak.
15 Q. What was your specific position in the JNA?
16 A. My specific duty at the time was chief of
17 staff of the brigade.
18 Q. What was your rank in the former JNA?
19 A. I was Lieutenant-Colonel in the former JNA.
20 Q. Brigadier. Did there come a time in 1992
21 when you became involved in the defence forces of
23 A. Of course I became involved. On 13 April
24 1992, I reported to the republican staff of the TO
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from then on I have been in the
1 units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. The court has already heard enough about the
3 armed forces at the disposal of Bosnia-Herzegovina at
4 the time of the outbreak of war. My question to you is
5 at the time when you reported to the republican staff
6 of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did
7 Bosnia have this armed force at the time when it was
9 A. Unfortunately, both in Bosnia and
10 Herzegovina, at the time of the attack and aggression,
11 did not have an organised armed force, and it took
12 steps to organise it as soon as it was possible.
13 Q. The court has already heard a number of facts
14 and witnesses relating to the arming of the Serb
15 people. Since you were a soldier, an officer of the
16 former JNA, until April 6th, 1992, could you tell us,
17 from your own experience, whether the JNA did arm
18 Serb population and the SDS political party?
19 JUDGE JAN: It is the position of the
20 Prosecution to examine Calic. Why do you want to go to
21 that question again?
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: After Dr. Calic, the
23 Prosecution called another witness to testify to the
24 same facts, and I believe that these are actual fact
25 witnesses as opposed to the witnesses who were only --
1 who only testified on the basis of documents. I was
2 under the impression that the court prefers witnesses
3 who are direct witnesses to the facts. However, if
4 this is sufficient for Your Honours, I can move on.
5 JUDGE JAN: there is again a mistake in the
6 transcript. I said when they examined Dr. Calic, not
7 Zejnil Delalic.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE JAN: There is another a mistake in the
10 transcript. I said when the Prosecution examined
11 Dr. Calic, not examined Delalic.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: As you see, Your Honours, we
13 are facing different types of problems. You see, it
14 just gives us an additional need for us to review
15 transcripts, which is an additional burden to us, but
16 we are grateful for you for pointing out mistakes in
17 the transcript.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mistakes happen here
19 repeatedly by so many witnesses. I think it doesn't
20 improve on what they have said. We've heard that.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.
22 Q. Brigadier, you said that you reported to the
23 republican staff on the 13th of April. Could you tell
24 us now, from your own personal experience, whether the
25 state bodies did respond immediately by adopting
1 regulations that would provide for establishment of a
2 defence force?
3 A. Yes. As early as 8 April, as the state of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and was internationally
5 recognised. The state bodies did indeed take emergency
6 steps in order to adopt certain regulations and
7 legislation which would regulate the system of defence
8 as a whole.
9 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, in light of this fact, and
10 this fact is already known to the court, did you, in
11 carrying out these new tasks of the republican staff
12 and the Ministry of Defence, at some point in the
13 spring of 1992 did you visit Konjic?
14 A. Yes. Immediately after the new legislation
15 was passed on the 14th, 14th of April that is, I
16 received an order to go as a military expert into the
17 territory of Konjic municipality in order to organise
18 and assist the Territorial Defence in that area.
19 Q. Why did the republican staff decide that it
20 was necessary that certain experts within its ranks,
21 such as you, would need to go to the Konjic area? Did
22 the Konjic area have a particular significance for
24 A. Yes, among others. There were some other
25 areas as well in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Konjic was one of
1 the more significant ones. It has a significant
2 military industry. It has significant military
3 facilities, which were used in the system of control
4 and command and the communication systems. It had
5 significant depots, warehousing facilities, and some
6 less significant facilities.
7 Q. Very well, Mr. Dzambasovic. Can you tell us
8 how you personally arrived in Konjic?
9 A. It was very difficult. Even though the
10 distance between Sarajevo and Konjic is about 45 minute
11 drive in a car, it took me about three days to reach
12 it; that is, on the road, Sarajevo, Tarcin, Konjic, the
13 SDS extremists had erected barricades at Ivan
14 Sjedlo Pass so that I could not use that road to get to
15 Konjic. After that, on the suggestion of my staff, I
16 opted for a different -- Kresevo, Tojnica, Dusina and
17 Buturovic Polje Road.
18 Q. Thank you. When you reached Konjic, when was
19 this; what period, what month -- how specifically can
20 you remember?
21 A. This was the latter half of May -- of April,
22 18th or 19th of April.
23 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Konjic, did
24 you at that time know the military and civilian
25 leadership of the municipality?
1 A. I did not know anyone, and this was an
2 additional difficulty for me. I didn't even know any
3 people there. I didn't have friends, nor did I go
4 there officially.
5 Q. When you came to Konjic, you probably met
6 these leaderships. Could you tell me who was the
7 commander of the municipal staff at the time of your
9 A. Commander of the municipal staff was also an
10 officer. He was a captain first class, Enver
11 Rezdepagic, who had been appointed after the new
12 legislation on the reorganisation, that is on the
13 organisation of the Territorial Defence of
15 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, how long did you stay in
16 Konjic, until when?
17 A. I stayed in Konjic until approximately 21st,
18 22nd of May, 1992.
19 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell us what were
20 your priority tasks which you were supposed to carry
21 out in the territory of this municipality?
22 A. My priority tasks were to assist the local --
23 the military authorities to set up the Territorial
24 Defence in the Konjic area, and given that this was the
25 initial period and that in Bosnia-Herzegovina we did
1 not have enough professional soldiers, that is
2 officers, there was an urgent need to set up a popular
3 armed resistance as soon as possible.
4 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you now tell us what
5 specific steps were taken in the municipal staff of the
6 Territorial Defence while you were present there?
7 A. The organisation of this task is a very
8 complex one. We had conditions which were far worse
9 than the normal conditions under which you normally
10 would prepare for a military exercise. This was the
11 reality that we were facing, and a list of activities
12 in which we engaged in was a very long one.
13 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, among these -- on this long
14 list of activities while you were down there in the --
15 was the general mobilisation called in the territory of
16 the municipality?
17 A. Yes. Pursuant to the decree with the force
18 of law, which was adopted sometime after 8 April, and
19 certain instructions which we received, the general
20 mobilisation was also called in that area, as it was
21 called in all the other areas, and a number of problems
22 arose in that connection, especially the citizens of
23 Serb ethnic background constructed (sic) this
24 mobilisation in different ways.
25 JUDGE JAN: Please refer to questions which
1 have a bearing on the role of Zejnil Delalic.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC:
3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, please tell me whether
4 during this period you met Mr. Zejnil Delalic in
6 A. Yes. I met him on the premises of the public
7 security station and the municipal TO headquarters. In
8 fact, we may not have met at all, but I was told that
9 he was a very interesting personality, that he was one
10 of the outstanding business people in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina that would be able to engage in
12 logistics, and that in that respect he is probably the
13 most qualified and the most able.
14 Q. You said that you met him for the first time
15 in the TO and the MUP building. When you met him, was
16 he a member of the TO or of the MUP?
17 A. No, he was not. Not at all. At that time in
18 this period, while I was visiting down there, since I
19 had insight into the full structure and organisation, I
20 know that he did not have such role.
21 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, did you meet Mr. Zejnil
22 Delalic again in April, and if you did, when was it, on
23 what occasion it was, and what did he do at that time?
24 A. We met on several other occasions, and this
25 was precisely in this initial period, at the entrance
1 to the city or to the town of Konjic where his house
2 was located, and our contacts were social ones, that we
3 would meet to go to have coffee together. And he was a
4 very sociable person anyway. And since I had come to
5 an area which was completely unknown to me, he was an
6 interesting person to know and to talk to.
7 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, when you arrived in Konjic,
8 did you learn from the municipal staff, or other
9 competent authorities, anything about the take-over of
10 some military facilities in April of 1992?
11 A. It was something that I was interested in,
12 and, in conversation with the commander of the TO
13 staff, I learned that facilities near Celebici were
14 military facilities, that they were taken over in a
15 peaceful manner, which I was glad about.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will now rise
17 and we'll reassemble at 4.30.
18 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, Judge Jan raised
21 the other day, that an issue about Exhibit 99, P-99 --
22 JUDGE JAN: Translations.
23 MR. NIEMANN: All formations or the other.
24 We've had a certification of it, Your Honours, and the
25 translations section say the correct translation is all
1 formations. I have a copy with a certification on it,
2 which I would ask be attached to the exhibit. Perhaps
3 it might be shown to Madam Residovic as well.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, upon your
5 suggestion, we have gone through the document which is
6 the Prosecutor's evidence 99 and the expert's report
7 and we noticed a difference. Both documents, from what
8 we can see, have been put together by the service of
9 this Tribunal and there is a significant and important
10 difference, so we wanted to forward a letter to the
11 interpreter service to determine upon the correct
12 translation. What we could see, according to the
13 English translations, all the -- all that was
14 translated as formation or composition, but never as an
15 unit. So we find it best for the interpreter service
16 to go through both documents and have a written
17 statement on the correct translation.
18 JUDGE JAN: Because it makes a lot of
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it does.
21 MR. NIEMANN: We've had that done and that's
22 the response. Your Honours will see when you look at
23 the document, that it's been so certified.
24 JUDGE JAN: The two translations make a lot
25 of difference in the sense of how you understand it.
1 Is it units? Is it formations? That's why I got your
2 attention to this difference, so that it can be sorted
4 MR. NIEMANN: That's what we've done, Your
5 Honour. The one I have just showed to Madam Residovic,
6 I didn't intend that she keep it, but that she see it,
7 would be attached to the exhibit.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: We agree because I can see
9 that there is a verification of the interpreters
10 service, so, therefore, this is an official translation
11 of the document. It seems to me in the transcript, it
12 was translated all the time as "all formation". So I
13 would request that this document be a part of the
14 evidence of 245/6-51 A.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we continue with
16 your witness, please?
17 MS. RESIDOVIC:
18 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Dzambasovic, you have
19 said to us that you were given an information about the
20 take-over of the Celebici barracks. Do you know, or was
21 it told to you then, who conducted this take-over and in
22 which manner?
23 A. I have said I was interested in it and I know
24 that this was done by the unit of the Territorial
25 Defence and the police unit, the MUP unit, in a way
1 without combat through peaceful means and I was very
2 glad about that.
3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, have you learned then
4 whether Mr. Delalic played any role in the take-over of
5 the barracks?
6 A. I really do not know anything about that.
7 From the military point of view, I don't know how he
8 could have a role. And I believe that in that part he
9 played no role whatsoever.
10 Q. So you did not have that information at the
11 time. Mr. Dzambasovic, you came from the republican
12 staff of the Territorial Defence and the ministry which
13 were, at that time, the supreme command of the army in
14 formation. Have you had any knowledge about legal
15 authorities of the newly formed country demanded for
16 military facilities at the territory of the Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina be put under control of legal
19 A. Yes. This was quite normal. A Territorial
20 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have military
21 facilities, nor the arms, nor the equipment. And we
22 tried to put those objects under our control and into
23 function. This was our interest, our goal as well as a
24 goal of all those who fought for Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Dzambasovic, after you have
1 learned of the take-over of the Celebici barracks, did
2 you, yourself, visit?
3 A. I visited the barracks on several occasions,
4 as well as other facilities in that area. For the
5 first time I was accompanied by the commander,
6 Rezdepagic, simply so that I could see the entire
7 situation and to, in a way, suggest or council what
8 needs to be done to establish a defence system.
9 Q. The chamber already knows that the Celebici
10 barracks used to be storage of the JNA. Would you tell
11 us, please, whether the facilities as you have seen it
12 during the take-over was prepared to accommodate a large
13 number of people? Could it be used for that purpose?
14 A. Those facilities were constructed with a
15 particular purpose, to store fuels and lubricants, with
16 several facilities underground. And I believe there
17 were two or three buildings with three or four offices,
18 so there were no further facilities to accommodate
19 units or people. This was mainly storage space.
20 Q. You visited the facility with the then
21 commander of the municipal staff, Captain Enver
22 Rezdepagic. Tell me whether you knew who appointed Mr.
24 A. It was known to me, I was interested in it.
25 As soon as the documents arrived, as soon as they were
1 put into force, the war Presidency and the municipal
2 staff wanted to put into practice as soon as possible
3 the new regulations, and they suggested the new
4 commander. And in the period of my presence, an
5 official appointment came from the republican staff in
7 Q. In your knowledge, at the moment, was
8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, whom you've met at where you've
9 described before, did he have any influence upon the
10 appointment of the commanders of municipal staff?
11 A. He could not have had an influence. It
12 couldn't have been had by anybody, but anybody could
13 suggest. In this specific case, he could not have had
14 an influence upon the appointment of a commander.
15 Q. Since you spent almost an entire month in the
16 Konjic area at the initial period of the war, did Mr.
17 Delalic, under your knowledge of his tasks, was he at
18 that time a civilian or a soldier?
19 A. He was a civilian, and we even envied him for
20 not being able to be civilians at that time.
21 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell me whether the
22 period of your presence in Konjic, did Mr. Delalic
23 leave the area of Konjic, and if you have such
24 knowledge, tell us where he went and for how long he
25 was absent?
1 A. I have no influence upon that, but I know
2 from conversations with my associates, people that I
3 corroborated with, that since he did have all the
4 necessary organisational skills as testified by my
5 associates and because of his connections outside
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he left for Zagreb to deal with
7 issues of logistics or logistical support with
8 technical and material equipment, which we missed,
9 which we did not have.
10 Q. Your basic tasks as you presented them before
11 the court were about the helping of organisation of
12 Territorial Defence and defence in general in Konjic.
13 Probably opened up an opportunity for you to say
14 whether during the time of your presence there, were
15 there any take-overs of other facilities? Were there
16 military facilities and who took part in those
18 A. Yes. Prior to that I just wanted to say that
19 we really put a lot of effort and used all our means to
20 take over facilities by peaceful means. And we had
21 negotiations on several occasions. Those tasks were
22 performed by authorities and partially by our municipal
23 staff. After that, since negotiations were
24 unsuccessful, we took over facilities surrounding
25 Konjic by use of joint forces of the HVO, Territorial
1 Defence and the then MUP. These facilities were Zlatar
2 and the facilities in the region of Ljuta, storage
3 space and command post of the so-called ARK or D-0.
4 And another barracks which used to house a military
5 construction unit. Prior to that, before I came, a
6 military factory was taken over, so we had a full
7 circle by that time concerning the operation of
9 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell us who
10 performed those take-overs?
11 A. Those facilities were regularly taken over by
12 TO, HVO and MUP units. Other units were not present in
13 that area.
14 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, please tell me whether Mr.
15 Delalic in any way participated in the take-overs of
16 those military facilities and whether he was in Konjic
17 at that time?
18 A. He could not have participated. Those tasks
19 were mainly from the beginning until the mid-May and at
20 that time, Mr. Delalic was outside of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so even theoretically speaking, he
22 could not have participated.
23 Q. Did Mr. Delalic return from Zagreb whilst you
24 were still in Konjic, and can you tell us approximately
25 when was that?
1 A. Yes. He returned prior to my departure,
2 since, in a way, I completed the tasks given to me for
3 that particular area, and this was after May 28th,
4 maybe a day or two before he came in a convoy from
5 Zagreb carrying supplies.
6 Q. You have mentioned that on several occasions
7 you visited the Celebici barracks. Before the Chamber
8 you have described your first visit when you wanted to
9 see the state of the facility. What were other
10 occasions of your visit?
11 A. On the 2nd instance it was when we
12 transferred arms and equipment from a part of
13 warehouses in the Ljuta region, which was left after
14 air strikes of the former JNA. In Konjic it was a
15 regular incident to use aviation. We counselled
16 municipal staff to do so because there were several
17 warehouses with a firm roof. It was not a 100 percent
18 protection from the planes, but it was better than
19 keeping it in open space.
20 We put there the equipment and arms from part
21 of the storage facilities in Ljuta. After that we put
22 together a plan to distribute that between three
23 municipal staff headquarters and, to a content of
24 everybody involved, according to the percentage of
25 population between the municipalities of Konjic,
1 Jablanica and Prozor, and also according to the
2 structure of population according to their ethnic
3 background at particular municipalities. So this plan
4 consisted of the distribution of equipment and arms for
5 the Territorial Defence, as well as for the HVO.
6 Q. Brigadier, sir. You have said that the
7 defence forces in Konjic, at the time of take-overs,
8 were TO, MUP and the HVO. Taking into account the
9 existence of the HVO as one of the defence forces, have
10 you had any personal influence or participation in
11 efforts to form a joint command between the TO and the
13 A. Yes, I have. I came from the republican
14 staff headquarters, where we had Bosniak, Muslims,
15 Croats and Serbs. You probably know that. And since
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina has been internationally recognised
17 as a state, it was only logical, and we insisted on the
18 formation of a joint command but, due to various
19 interests, that joint command was not established, but
20 only the Territorial Defence joint command or, rather,
21 the joint command between the HVO and the TO. And this
22 was very positive, in my view, for the region and for
23 the people of that region.
24 Q. Brigadier, sir, can you recall when this
25 joint command was established?
1 A. In the second half of May, there was an
2 arrangement between the representatives of the HVO and
3 the Territorial Defence.
4 Q. Thank you. Please tell me whether this
5 command decided to try to determine its tasks and to
6 distinguish those tasks from the functions and duties
7 that civilian authorities held in Konjic?
8 A. Yes, this was one step further in the
9 organisation of the TO. We advised to regulate at the
10 level of municipalities, who has the competence in the
11 defence system in relation to the structure between the
12 republican staff and local authorities, which are the
13 competencies of the civilian authorities.
14 Q. I would now ask that the witness be shown the
15 evidence D244(5I/7), page 145. D144.
16 This is an expert report, a military expert
17 report D144. This is a separate volume annexed to
18 military expert report.
19 To give some aid, we are dealing here with
20 separate files attached to the expert report. There is
21 an annex 1, annex 2, and annex 3. These are evidence,
22 separate evidence, 144, 145 and 146.
23 THE REGISTRAR: (No translation)
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: D144(V2). This is what it
25 looks like.
1 In order not to waste the Court's time, I
2 will come back to this document later, once it's
3 found. I think that we may have some discrepancy in
4 identification number, so I'm just going to reserve
5 these questions for a later time.
6 Q. Brigadier, before you left the area of Konjic
7 town, do you know whether Zejnil Delalic was appointed
8 coordinator by the war Presidency, as a coordinator
9 between this Presidency and the defence forces of
11 A. I did not see this in person, but I learned
12 about it. I learned that the war Presidency -- in
13 order to coordinate different activities between the
14 command of the municipal headquarters and the local
15 authorities, did introduce this position of
16 coordinator. In other words, I did learn about it.
17 Q. Thank you. Since we have found the document
18 which we were trying to find, you were talking about a
19 distinction between the authorities of the military and
20 civilian bodies, and I would like you to review this
21 document, so I can ask you a question in that regard.
22 MR. NIEMANN: (Obscured by translation) --
23 the document on the reference given. So if we could
24 possibly see the document, we might be able to locate
25 it that way.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: These are the conclusions of
2 18 May.
3 JUDGE JAN: You are referring to the meeting
4 between the war Presidency and the joint command. You
5 are talking about a number of scenes there. How is
6 that relevant, really, at this stage?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is a question that I am
8 going to ask of the Brigadier, whether this is
9 relevant, and the Defence is trying to show a very
10 clear distinction between the competencies of the
11 civilian and military authorities.
12 Q. Brigadier, did you have an occasion to look
13 at it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you know of these conclusions in 1992?
16 A. I am familiar with these conclusions because
17 it was really important. It was, in fact, crucial to
18 separate the functions of the local authorities from
19 the commands and units, because there were attempts to
20 one-sidedly do this. I need to point out that these
21 one-sided attempts were made by our HVO partners. They
22 did not want the civilian authorities to exist, but,
23 rather, that the command of the municipal staff or the
24 joint command of the TO and HVO was -- would be in
25 charge of all activities in the area.
1 Q. Thank you. The document may be returned
2 now. And my question to you is: After this meeting
3 and the decisions such as were adopted, do you know
4 that military authorities continued to engage in
5 military affairs and the civilian authorities continued
6 to engage in their own activities in the period while
7 you were still in the Konjic area?
8 A. Yes, this was to our satisfaction. Both the
9 civilian authorities and the military authorities were
10 established both in the Konjic municipality and in the
11 Jablanica municipality. And precisely because this
12 took place in this particular way, I believed that the
13 goal with which I had come was realised, and that the
14 legally elected government bodies would be able to
15 continue to function successfully.
16 Q. Thank you. Given the time in which you
17 visited Konjic, do you know whether in the military
18 bodies, that is in a joint command, a combat operation
19 was planned in order to lift the blockade of the town?
20 And the Trial Chamber already knows that at that time
21 the town was under a blockade.
22 A. As a result of establishment of a joint
23 command, combat operations to lift a blockade of the
24 town were developed, and this was done from two areas,
25 from the south-west and from the north.
1 Q. Brigadier, did some of these activities began
2 or completed during the period of time when you were
3 still in Konjic?
4 A. The preparations for lifting the blockade of
5 town started in the area -- in the northern area, that
6 is in the area of the village of Bradina. And also
7 preparations were started to lift the blockade from the
8 south, in the area of Konjic, Donje Selo --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of
10 this? Is it really necessary for him to give this
12 MS. REZIDOVIC: (No translation)
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a continuous waste
14 of time --
15 MS. REZIDOVIC: (No translation)
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you think it is
17 relevant, because I do not think it is. We've had
18 enough sufficient evidence about preparation for
19 lifting the blockade and all that about Bradina, Donje
20 Selo. So many witnesses have given that evidence.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Perhaps -- I'm not talking
22 about Sarajevo at all, Your Honour. Maybe it's
23 misinterpretation. My question was referring to Donje
24 Selo, from where certain number of people were detained
25 in Celebici. And my question was whether the witness
1 knew this. And the follow-up question was, since he
2 knew of Zejnil Delalic's whereabouts, and since he has
3 made a distinction between the military and civilian
4 authorities' roles, whether Mr. Delalic as a civilian
5 took part in preparation of these operations?
6 A. Mr. Delalic did not take part in preparation
7 of these operations, and he could not have taken part
8 in them. But in terms of logistical support, he
9 definitely did make a contribution, and everybody was
10 looking forward to his involvement in this.
11 Q. You said that you left Konjic sometime around
12 May 21, 22. Where did you go after that,
13 Mr. Dzambasovic?
14 A. After the completion of my task, I was due to
15 go to back to Sarajevo. However, since this was
16 physically impossible, I went back to Visoko, where
17 there was a group of officers at a forward command
18 post, and they were with the republican staff and later
19 the supreme command of the BiH Army. I joined this
20 group and continued to work there until October.
21 Q. After you left Konjic, did you again meet
22 Mr. Delic in 1992, and what was he engaged in and what
23 was his position at the time?
24 A. Yes, we did meet after a longer period of
25 time in the area of Mount Igman sometime in early
1 August of 1992. I came to Igman to carry out a task
2 and, at that time, Mr. Delalic was commander of the
3 Tactical Group 1, so that we needed to meet and we
5 Q. Do you know whom Mr. Delalic replaced in this
6 position and what were the reasons for the replacement
7 of the previous commander?
8 JUDGE JAN: You've got that already Mustafa
9 Polutak was injured and he was replaced. That's what
10 your previous witness has said.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mustafa Polutak is probably
13 going to be best able to explain that.
14 JUDGE JAN: Ask him.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE JAN: We've got evidence from your
17 other witnesses that he was injured and he had to be
18 replaced and he was replaced by Zejnil Delalic.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC:
20 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, since you were in a former
21 command post in Visoko, which was the former command
22 post of the main headquarters, do you know the reasons
23 why Mr. Delalic became commander of Tactical Group 1
24 even though he did not have previous military training
25 for that?
1 A. Personally I believe that the honourable
2 judges know that there were many reasons for decisions
3 of this kind. We did not have an officers' corps.
4 That was the main reason. Even today we have civilians
5 in positions of command and they perform military
6 functions. And since Mr. Delalic possessed great
7 organisational skills, and also given that he has given
8 great contribution in logistical support, this was
9 respected very much by the population. And he was
10 well-respected not only in the Konjic area, but
11 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. Since you worked with Mr. Delalic during this
13 period, can you tell me whether you know if there were
14 military officers in the Tactical Group 1 headquarters
15 who could have supplemented the skills needed for a
17 A. Yes, of course. There was not a single
18 command where there were no military experts, including
19 the Tactical Group 1. There were several officers
20 there, professional officers, who had certain military
21 training and specialisation for certain things. And
22 they were able to assess the situation and give the
23 right suggestions.
24 Q. Yes, go ahead.
25 A. My apologies. So we relied on people who
1 were able, who knew how and did organise and then we
2 also added to these commands people who for jobs for
3 which a military expert was essential.
4 Q. When it came to Visoko, Mr. Dzambasovic, did
5 you have a duty that was similar to those held
6 initially by Mr. Polutak and later by Mr. Delalic?
7 A. Yes. In the larger east Visoko area, a
8 tactical group Visoko was established. And I was
9 commander of this tactical group. In other words, this
10 was a process which then spread everywhere.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether in the
12 Visoko area, whether Tactical Group 2 was ever
13 established and was active in this area?
14 A. You mean Tactical Group 2 in the area of
15 Visoko, that does not make sense to me. Tactical group
16 Visoko was in the Visoko area. And Tactical Group 2
17 was established in the area of Igman. And its zone of
18 responsibility was from Grubac and Trnovo to Pazaric.
19 Q. As a participant of these events, can you
20 tell me where the command post of Tactical Group 1 was
21 throughout this period?
22 A. All commands, in general, including the
23 command of Tactical Group 1, had its basic command post
24 and, if necessary, it had forward or reserve command
25 posts. Tactical Group 1, specifically, for the most
1 part, was Pazaric and Mount Igman.
2 Q. When you arrived at Igman, what was your task
3 there? Did it have anything to do with tactical groups
4 1 and 2?
5 A. Did Mr. Delalic have anything to do with
6 Tactical Group 1 or 2?
7 Q. No, that was not my question and I apologise
8 if I did not frame my question well. You arrived at
9 Igman in early August and that's when you met Mr.
10 Delalic again. Can you tell me, what was your military
11 task when you arrived there?
12 A. Very well, thank you. Let me answer that.
13 When we talk about the area of Mount Igman, the
14 military situation there had become more complex by
15 wounding of the commander of Tactical Group 2, Mr.
16 Catic, and killing of certain members of his staff. I
17 was tasked to see to it that the situation be remedied
18 and brought back to normal to coordinate tasks between
19 Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2.
20 Q. I would like now to show the witness Exhibit
21 D145, Annex 6/6.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To Tactical Group 2.
24 Shifting attention to that?
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. No, Your Honour. This
1 is coordination between Tactical Group 1 and Tactical
2 Group 2. May the English translation be placed on the
3 ELMO so that everybody in the courtroom could see it.
4 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, are you familiar with this
5 document? Did you receive this appointment?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, under 3, you can see that
8 you were appointed leader of the temporary coordinating
9 body between the Tactical Groups 1 and 2, can you tell
10 me what kind of coordination is implied here? Is this
11 civilian coordination or is this military
13 A. This is exclusively coordination on military
14 matters. And the concept of coordination in military
15 terms is something that is known in the military
17 Q. Brigadier, as an experienced soldier, can you
18 tell me whether there's a concept of coordinator in the
20 JUDGE JAN: Why do you want to repeat it
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: If the Trial Chamber feels it
23 is a fact that's been sufficiently clarified. But I
24 have to point out that my client has been a coordinator
25 of combat units which had taken prisoners to Celebici.
1 And we have an expert here who can testify to that.
2 However, if you feel that this fact has been
3 sufficiently established and clarified, I need not
4 continue with this line of questioning.
5 Q. So brigadier, I will only ask you one single
6 question. That this military coordination, as it is
7 spelled out in this document, does it have anything to
8 do with coordinator which is appointed by a civilian
10 A. No, you cannot confuse the role of
11 coordinator in the area of civilian authority with
12 coordination of command and control. That is, with
13 military coordinator.
14 Q. Since this is a document which the witness
15 recognised as a document which he personally received,
16 I tender it into evidence as Defence exhibit because it
17 has been authenticated.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC:
20 Q. Can you tell me whether you know -- strike
21 that, please. With respect to these tasks, can you
22 tell me whether after this you took part in preparation
23 of a large combat operation, JUG, and whether Mr.
24 Zejnil Delalic was also involved in those
1 A. Since we were tasked with being coordinator
2 after a short period of assessment, we reached a
3 conclusion that this function was inadequate for
4 completion of the task and we proposed to the commander
5 to set up and establish a temporary group which would
6 coordinate this operation and we called the entire
7 operation -- we gave it a code JUG '92 or South '92.
8 Q. Your Honours, is this a convenient moment to
9 take a recess for the day?
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you don't have so
11 many questions, we'll take one or two questions and
12 then we'll close.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have several other areas
14 and I also pointed out that I was not feeling quite
15 well today, but I have a number of additional questions
16 of this witness, so I would like to ask to continue
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
19 But I'll advise you again to get your witnesses ready
20 for continuation because the Trial Chamber has no
21 intention of granting any adjournment for them. So I
22 better advise you about that. I have not been too
23 impressed by the record. There have been too many
24 errors. I think they should try and improve on the
25 transcript. It's not been quite confident. The Trial
1 Chamber will now rise and resume at 10.00 a.m.
3 ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
4 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
5 the 3rd day of June, 1998.