Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12539

1 --- Tuesday, June 2nd, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.05 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. Do you have the appearances, please.

5 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, please, my name

6 is Niemann. I appear with my colleagues, Mr. Turone,

7 Ms. McHenry and Mr. Huber for the Prosecution, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the

10 appearances for the Defence.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

12 am Edina Residovic, representing here today, Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic, together with my colleague, Eugene O'Sullivan

14 Professor of Law from Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my

16 name Zeljko Olujic. I am defending here Mr. Zdravko

17 Mucic, together with my colleague, Mr. Tomislav

18 Kuzmanovic, who is absent this morning and will not

19 join us in the courtroom today. Thank you.

20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, I

21 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, I

22 representing Mr. Hazim Delic.

23 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honour, I

24 am Cynthia McMurrey, along with my colleague, Ms. Nancy

25 Boler. We represent Esad Landzo.

Page 12540

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

2 think we're still on with Ms. Residovic. May we have

3 your next witness.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour,

5 I will call the witness immediately. This morning we

6 have provided the court with the list of witnesses and

7 the possibilities of the -- the opportunities of the

8 defence to call them and have them examined, so I would

9 appreciate if you can tell us your opinion on our

10 proposal regarding the witness list today. Thank you.

11 (The witness entered court)

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose this is in

13 addition to the witnesses you've already called?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

15 didn't hear what you said because I didn't have my

16 earphones on. I didn't hear the interpretation.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I was commenting these

18 latest witness list is in addition to witnesses already

19 called?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, this is a continuation

21 beginning with today and these are only witnesses who

22 have been already put on the list, but we have reduced

23 the number. We have left out eight witnesses, so this

24 would be our final proposal and this would conclude the

25 case of the Defence.

Page 12541

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As long as the

2 difficulties likely to be imposed by duplication and

3 repetition, there's nothing wrong in your witness list,

4 as long as we don't have duplication or repetition of

5 evidence. I would like you to call them, please.

6 Because what we said from the beginning is

7 that evidence which is obviously relevant because they

8 are duplicated or repetitive, then the evidence could

9 be called. We will go on. They are your witnesses,

10 you know how to examine them and what you'll have to

11 say to avoid those principles. Thank you, you can

12 carry on. Swear the witness, please.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down,

16 please.



19 Q. Good morning, sir.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Sir, could you please state your full name

22 and introduce yourself to this chamber?

23 A. My name is Mustafa Dzelilovic.

24 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, before I proceed with my

25 questions to you during this examination-in-chief, I

Page 12542

1 have to draw your attention to a technical matter. You

2 and I speak the same language and it would be very easy

3 for you to answer immediately each of my questions.

4 However, our conversation has to be interpreted so that

5 the Honourable Judges and all other participants in the

6 proceedings here in the courtroom can understand us.

7 Therefore, I kindly ask you, when I ask my question, to

8 wait for the interpretation coming from the earphones

9 on your table. So after the interpretation is

10 completed, you can answer my question. Mr. Dzelilovic,

11 have you understood me?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell me

14 where and when you were born?

15 A. I was born in Hadzici on the 13th of

16 November, 1955.

17 Q. What is your ethnic background and what is

18 your nationality?

19 A. My ethnic background is Bosniak and I am a

20 citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Dzelilovic?

22 A. I am an ergonomist.

23 Q. What is your educational background, where

24 did you go to school?

25 A. I completed elementary education in Hadzici

Page 12543

1 and secondary school in Sarajevo and I graduated from

2 the faculty of ergonomy in Sarajevo.

3 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell us now where

4 were you in 1992 when the war started in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. The aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina found me

7 in Hadzici, where I was president of the Municipality

8 of Hadzici.

9 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, the Court knows quite a bit

10 about Bosnia and Herzegovina and the area in question,

11 but still, I would like you to tell us whether the

12 Municipality of Hadzici belonged to the area of

13 Sarajevo town?

14 A. Yes, it did. The Municipality of Hadzici was

15 part of Sarajevo. It was one of the ten municipalities

16 that made up the Town of Sarajevo, the City of

17 Sarajevo.

18 Q. One more question to clarify this issue, so

19 that we know exactly which area we are talking about.

20 Could you tell us where exactly this municipality is

21 located, in which direction from the Town of Sarajevo

22 and where precisely it is located?

23 A. The Municipality of Hadizi is situated on the

24 road Number M-17. On the south it borders the

25 Municipality of Konjic and on the west, the

Page 12544

1 municipalities of Kresevo and Kiseljak.

2 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at this moment, we would be

3 interested in the southern part of your municipality,

4 could you tell us with which villages belonging to the

5 Konjic Municipality your Municipality of Hadzici

6 borders?

7 A. The border is near the Evan Sedlo Ridge. And

8 it's situated near the village of Bradina, which

9 belongs to the Municipality of Konjic. On our side,

10 there are villages of Vranske Stijene and Janici. And

11 there's a tunnel going under the Ivan Planina

12 mountain. And this is sort of bordered between these

13 two municipalities.

14 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, so far the court has heard

15 the names of Hadizi and Pazaric and Tarcin. However,

16 could you tell us where in relation to your

17 municipality where these villages are situated?

18 A. There are eleven local communes in the

19 village of Hadizi and there are three residential urban

20 areas Hadizi, Pazaric and Tarcin. The remaining local

21 communes are villages, that is rural areas.

22 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, you just said that your

23 municipality, together with these residential areas is

24 located on a strategically important road, M-17, could

25 you now tell us whether there were any other reasons

Page 12545

1 why your municipality had military and strategic

2 significance at the time?

3 A. Yes. It was an important strategic point at

4 the time because of a number of military installations

5 on the territory of the municipality. The municipality

6 comprised one part of the Bjela Sjzni (phoen) mountain,

7 which from a strategically point of view is a very

8 important area. And a technological -- a military

9 technological institute was located in Hadzici, where

10 military equipment was repaired and there was a very

11 important warehouse where weapons were stored in the

12 area. The place is called Zunovica. And there is

13 another military depot in the area and the barracks in

14 Pazaric. And at Usivak there was a barracks, whose

15 main function was communication at the time.

16 Therefore, we can talk about a very important

17 municipality from the strategical point of view.

18 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, such a geographical location

19 in the installations belonging to the former JNA that

20 you have just mentioned, were they the reason of the --

21 for the attitude of the former JNA towards this

22 particular municipality? The attitude and behaviour of

23 the JNA. Again, I am reminding you that this is a

24 municipality which was part of the Town of Sarajevo.

25 A. Yes, the former JNA thought the area was

Page 12546

1 quite important and it wanted to capture it.

2 Q. As the President of Municipality and later on

3 as the President of the war Presidency of the

4 Municipality of Hadizi, do you know whether the former

5 JNA managed to fulfil their objective and when?

6 A. Yes, it did. After the events that took

7 place in Sarajevo, in the month of April, the Yugoslav

8 Peoples Army, together with the SDS forces, set up a

9 blockade on the M-17 road and captured a junction

10 leading to Kiseljak in Hadzici, which was strategically

11 very important because it was coming from the direction

12 of Sarajevo. On the other hand, the former JNA armed

13 the para military formations of the SDS in the area

14 of Ivan Planina Mountain. Therefore, there was

15 evidence, reliable evidence, that they were fulfilling

16 their plan. They were implementing their aggressive

17 policy and they were very open about it throughout the

18 month of April. They were acting in support of the pro

19 Chetnik SDS forces.

20 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, the former JNA, did it

21 operate, in a military sense, in the territory of the

22 Hadzici municipality and what happened at that time

23 with the authorities, with the local authorities and

24 the population of your municipality?

25 A. Unfortunately, on 9th of May, the former

Page 12547

1 Yugoslav Peoples Army carried out an aggression against

2 our municipality with tanks, rocket launchers, APCs,

3 anti-aircraft weapons. It attacked the Town of

4 Hadzici. And pushed away the police forces that were

5 trying to put up some sort of resistance, but to no

6 avail because at that time the police had a very small

7 amount of infantry weapons at their disposal.

8 JUDGE JAN: Is it necessary to go into all

9 those details? Why don't you come straight away to the

10 point?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I believe that

12 these data are quite important when it comes to the

13 assignments of the tactical group and the possible

14 responsibility of its commanders in their area of

15 responsibility. This municipality is part of the Town

16 of Sarajevo and we thought that this person who is a

17 fact witness, can describe the situation in which Mr.

18 Delalic found himself for about half a year. I think

19 that without the description of these circumstances, it

20 is difficult to understand his responsibilities and his

21 task he was commander of the tactical group. These are

22 the only reasons actually. I mean, we're simply not

23 trying to talk about the war.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't know these

25 possibilities are in dispute. We're not in dispute,

Page 12548

1 commander of TG-1, that he has responsibilities, nobody

2 disputes that. What brings all the charges, are the

3 exercise of his authority as TG-1 commander, not that

4 he has authority as TG-1 commander, not his

5 responsibility, that is not in dispute. Nobody

6 disputes that. The Prosecutor is here. We know that.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, Your Honours, but it is

8 the Prosecutor's case that he, as the commander of all

9 formations was responsible for everything, including

10 Celebici. If he's not responsible for anything, then

11 how can he be responsible for Celebici.

12 This is our response. We are bringing here,

13 people who were in the area at the time. Who can

14 testify from their personal knowledge about something

15 that I as a lawyer could couldn't tell you. And this

16 is the reason why we call these people from Jablanica,

17 Prozor, Hadzici, and Konjic. We are trying to provide

18 you with an opportunity to see what kind of

19 responsibilities he had. And it's probably after their

20 evidence that you will be able to reach a decision

21 about his responsibilities, whether the Prosecution is

22 right or the defence, because, again, we cannot present

23 you with any proof regarding, for example, hangar 6

24 because my client was not there. And we do not have

25 fact witnesses who will testify to that. So we are

Page 12549

1 trying to focus on a wider area of responsibility.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's not an issue, --

3 and explain, and my brother has also the details of

4 what happened has nothing to do with whether he

5 exercised his responsibilities properly. This is what

6 he's staying. It has nothing to do with that. Because

7 while he was appointed, why Hadzici was unsafe and what

8 JNA did, has nothing to do with his exercise of his

9 responsibility. Because what brings him into the

10 offence is his exercise of responsibility. And his

11 role towards that. As I have already said, perhaps

12 it's your own understanding of what the charge is, but

13 it's very clear. And what this witness has set out to

14 tell us is, the role and responsibility of Delalic as

15 TG-1 commander. And particularly from the 1st of May

16 to October. All these are the background information,

17 has nothing to do with it.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the Defence

19 believes that this is important, so, of course, you can

20 always say that the question is not relevant, but we

21 believe that the reasons, that is the assignments that

22 were carried out by Delalic's commander, tactical group

23 1 we believe that this is important. I will try not to

24 burden this court with all the superfluous details,

25 because the details which are not important for the

Page 12550

1 defence of Mr. Delalic.

2 Q. Thank you. Following the instructions of the

3 chamber, Mr. Dzelilovic, I will simply ask you then,

4 where did the local authorities withdraw after the

5 former JNA and the SDS took over the centre of the town

6 the way you described?

7 A. The local authorities withdrew to Pasaric

8 together with the population that managed to pull out

9 from Hadzici. Unfortunately, 186 people remained there

10 forever and we don't know what happened to them to this

11 date. Therefore, the seat of the Hadzici municipality

12 from the beginning of the war until the signing of the

13 Dayton accord was in Pasaric.

14 Q. In response to my previous question, Mr.

15 Dzelilovic, you said that your municipality was

16 bordering the Municipality of Konjic in the area of

17 Ivan Planina Mountain and that this area was blocked as

18 early as April, what did this blockade of the road to

19 Konjic mean for the population of the village of

20 Hadzici?

21 A. The population of the Hadzici municipality

22 found themselves stuck between the area of Konjic and

23 the area of Hadzici, we did not have any way out from

24 our municipality except through Vlakiseljac (phoen), so

25 what this meant for the local population was that, for

Page 12551

1 example, the wounded and the sick had to be transported

2 to the first medical institution along the road for

3 about 15 or 16 hours.

4 Q. How long would you normally travel from

5 Pasaric to Konjic? And how did that trip change after

6 the blockade?

7 A. Well, that trip used to last less than half

8 an hour.

9 JUDGE JAN: We have already been told about

10 that by Dokramovic, Mr. Dzelilovic. We have also been

11 told by General Divjak if you don't have access through

12 Mount Ivan, then you have to travel about 16 passes,

13 what is the necessity of that? Ask us about TG-1,

14 tactical group, then we will know what responsibilities

15 are. Why go into unnecessary details?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I will follow

17 your instructions, however, after the testimony of

18 General Divjak the Prosecution did not change their

19 allegations and are claiming that these forces attacked

20 peaceful Serb villages, and that's why we're trying

21 through these witnesses who lived at the time in the

22 area to describe the situation. This may be beyond

23 dispute for you but as long as the charges are as they

24 stand, we have an obligation to question these

25 witnesses to that effect. I know that you have been

Page 12552

1 convinced of that, but it is still the Prosecutor's

2 case that the situation was such. Thank you.

3 JUDGE JAN: I have not been convinced, but

4 please go ahead with your witness.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

6 Q. You have said that you only needed half an

7 hour to go there, and after the siege?

8 A. Well, we needed 15 or 16 hours along a dirt

9 road to reach the area.

10 JUDGE JAN: I'm sorry, I said -- I said "I am

11 not sure." I said, "I am not sure that I have been

12 convinced." Not that I have not been convinced.


14 Q. The population of Hadzici, which at the time

15 was reduced to that restricted area, did they -- was

16 the lifting of the blockade of vital significance for

17 them at the time?

18 A. Yes, it was a question of life and death for

19 the population of Hadzici, was the only way out, and

20 such an operation had to take place. At that time

21 there was a great number of refugees in the area who

22 had come from Eastern Bosnia with the horrible stories

23 about killings and rapes, and we are talking about a

24 very restricted area, 200 square kilometres, the area

25 which was constantly exposed to shelling and air

Page 12553

1 attacks. So we didn't have adequate medical

2 protection. And as I say, it was a question of life

3 and death. It was something that had to be done.

4 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, I believe that we have

5 described the general situation in the area at the

6 time, and right now I would like to move to another

7 area. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you tell me whether you

8 knew Mr. Zejnil Delalic before the war and if you had

9 an opportunity to meet with him between April and

10 November 1992?

11 A. I didn't know Zejnil Delalic before the war,

12 and the first time I met with him was in April in

13 Konjic, when together, with the representatives of the

14 municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of Hadzici,

15 and representatives of the police, when I managed to

16 reach Konjic via this dirt road that I mentioned. And

17 this is when I first met Zejnil Delalic.

18 At that time he was involved with logistics

19 and he helped us on that occasion with some supplies.

20 He gave us some uniforms, Motorola’s, medical supplies

21 and so on. That was our first meeting.

22 Q. After that meeting in April, did you at any

23 point in time come across Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

24 A. Our next meeting took place in mid-May, I'm

25 not sure, maybe a little later. It was after we had

Page 12554

1 received information that Zejnil Delalic was in Zagreb

2 and that he was supposed to obtain some technical

3 supplies. And we were told that a convoy was supposed

4 to pass through Dusina on the way to Visoko. So

5 together with the representatives of the

6 representatives of the municipal staff and the police,

7 I went to Ducina, and this is where I met with him the

8 second time. Part of the supplies were given to the

9 Municipality of Hadzici.

10 Q. When you met with Mr. Zejnil Delalic in

11 Ducina in this second half of May, what function did he

12 perform at the time, if you can remember?

13 A. Well, I think he was in charge of escorting

14 the convoy, because he had been in Zagreb, he was

15 supposed to obtain these supplies, so he came with the

16 convoy.

17 Q. At that time was there anyone else, besides

18 members of the municipal staff, was there anyone else

19 in Ducina and did anyone else take over the supplies

20 that had been obtained in the Republic of Croatia?

21 A. Well, as far as I can remember, Mr. Mustafa

22 Polutak was also there, and he was representing the

23 Tactical Group that had been established some time

24 before that. So I think that he took over a certain

25 amount of weapons for the Tactical Group.

Page 12555

1 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in view of your knowledge

2 about the meeting in Ducina, could you tell us whether

3 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at that time, was a civilian, as

4 far as you knew, or did he have some other function?

5 When you first met Mr. Zejnil Delalic, did

6 you see him as a civilian, and what was the situation

7 in that regard during your second meeting with him?

8 A. As far as I know, he was a civilian all the

9 time until he was appointed as the commander of the

10 Tactical Group 1.

11 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, after the month of May, have

12 you met Mr. Delalic, and what tasks and functions did

13 he hold at that time?

14 A. I met Zejnil Delalic at the area of Hadzici,

15 when we conducted an electrification introduction of

16 electrical current into our villages of the

17 municipality, because the electrical current supply was

18 interrupted from Hadzici. So we had took certain

19 measures to repair the supply network. And in

20 cooperation with Zejnil Delalic, we managed to do so

21 from the direction of Konjic.

22 We also met again, due to reconstruction of

23 the railroad, repairs to the railroad, between

24 Hadzici and Jablanica.

25 Q. Thank you. I would now move onto another

Page 12556

1 topic, after we have gone thoroughly through your

2 knowledge of Zejnil Delalic's functions between April

3 and June.

4 Would you please tell me whether your troops

5 took part in some of combat operations, together with

6 the units of Konjic, within that period that we have

7 just mentioned?

8 A. Yes, we had a joint operation to deblock road

9 M17 around Bradina. On our part we had the Territorial

10 Defence of Hadzici units and the unit of the public

11 safety of our municipality, meaning the police.

12 Q. From your side, who commanded the Territorial

13 Defence units which took part in the deblocking of the

14 road, and who was in charge of the police units?

15 A. The Territorial Defence units were commanded

16 by their commander, a commander of the local

17 headquarters, Territorial Defence. Police had its own

18 hierarchy and subordination. They had the head of the

19 police at the station or precinct of public security in

20 Hadzici.

21 Q. In your knowledge, would you know who was in

22 charge of the units on the other side of Ivan Planina,

23 meaning from the direction of Konjic?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could you claim that the

Page 12557

1 units which were in action from -- on your part, were

2 commanded by the people that you have stated? Were

3 there some third parties or other persons from other

4 municipalities who, at that time, could have attained

5 any command or responsibility over the units of

6 Hadzici?

7 A. No. I state that the command of our units

8 was done solely by the commander of our municipal staff

9 and the head of the police and the public security of

10 Hadzici, and the command for that attack was given by

11 the Territorial Defence headquarters of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. How long, if you could remember, did that

14 operation of deblocking of Bradina -- how long did it

15 last, at least when it concerns your units?

16 A. Operations were concluded within two days.

17 Q. Do you know if those forces of armed Serb

18 population, did they resist?

19 A. Yes, their resistance was fierce. Within the

20 first day we had 14 wounded. Our units have moved on

21 somewhat earlier, and Chetnik forces in Bradina

22 probably thought that the attack is coming only from

23 our direction, and they resisted. They resisted

24 severely.

25 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at any point in the area of

Page 12558

1 your municipality was there a commander at the

2 headquarters or commanding staff of the Tactical Group

3 1?

4 A. Yes. The commander of the Tactical Group, as

5 I have said, was Polutak Mustafa, Lieutenant-Colonel of

6 the former JNA. He came to Pazaric and -- and a seat

7 of the Tactical Group 1 from that moment on was in

8 Pazaric.

9 Q. At the time when Mr. Polutak was the

10 commander of Tactical Group 1, do you know whether

11 certain units of the municipal Territorial Defence were

12 under the command of Mr. Polutak?

13 A. Yes. A part of our units was. A certain

14 number of people, around 300, was under the command of

15 the Tactical Group 1.

16 Q. Since all the combat operations were

17 conducted in the area of your municipality, would you

18 tell me, at that time did you know or do you know that

19 in some of the operations of Tactical Group 1 the units

20 of Konjic also took part?

21 A. Yes, they did. As part of Tactical Group 1,

22 there were also units from Konjic, Jablanica and

23 Prozor, and when those units arrived from those areas,

24 they were well equipped, and it was then said that the

25 equipping of those units was performed by Mr. Delalic,

Page 12559

1 which was, for our current conditions, a big thing.

2 Because we had -- we tried daily to try to reject the

3 forces, the attacks, which were attacking us on a daily

4 basis from all directions.

5 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, I will now ask you a question

6 concerning the combat operation, because we have

7 another witness, we have here, Lieutenant-Colonel

8 Polutak, but I would like to ask you, since you were a

9 direct witness, do you know whether in that operation,

10 when the commander was Mr. Polutak, did Zejnil Delalic

11 command, have command of the units coming from Konjic?

12 A. No. Those units were subordinated to

13 Tactical Group 1, as well as parts of the municipal

14 Territorial Defence were subordinated to Tactical Group

15 1.

16 Q. I would ask you again to talk on another

17 topic, because I believe we have obtained enough facts

18 to the Chamber about your knowledge of Tactical Group

19 1, while it was under command of Mr. Polutak.

20 Mr. Dzelilovic, you have said that at the

21 beginning of the war you were the head of the Municipal

22 Assembly. Can you tell me, until when in 1992 did you

23 stay -- did you hold that function; and in your

24 municipality, when you were unable to conduct meetings

25 of the assembly, did you have any other local authority

Page 12560

1 body operational?

2 A. During the entire time of the war, I held my

3 position. At the periods when we were unable to hold

4 meetings, we had a functioning Presidency of the

5 Hadzici municipality, and this is a term -- a war term

6 of so-called war Presidency.

7 Q. Did you mean this was not a part of the law,

8 of the legislation?

9 A. The Presidency was functioning because we had

10 the sufficient number of representatives to

11 occasionally hold meetings of the assembly, to verify

12 the decisions that we as members of the Presidency

13 made.

14 Q. Did the Municipal Assembly, or your war

15 Presidency, when there was a lack of possibility to

16 hold meetings of the Assembly, did you have the

17 authority to name to post commanders of the units

18 within your municipality?

19 A. No. The war Presidency did not have a

20 competence to appoint commanders. We could give

21 suggestions, but the appointment was done by the

22 regional Territorial Defence headquarters, or the

23 headquarters of Territorial Defence of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. In your Municipality of Hadzici, did

Page 12561

1 -- commanders of the municipal headquarters were

2 members of your war Presidency?

3 A. Members of the Presidency, no.

4 Q. Can you remember, Mr. Dzelilovic, whether

5 that period between April and October, who were the

6 commanders of the municipal headquarters, Territorial

7 Defence in Hadzici, or did you just have one commander?

8 A. When the aggression on the Municipality of

9 Hadzici began, the commander was Ramiz Stupovac. He

10 was appointed earlier, while there was still not a war

11 going on. After that we had Said Rizvic, after whom

12 Camur, after which Kazic and so on.

13 Q. Could you tell us, since there were

14 operations at that moment, whether some of the people

15 -- some of the commanders were wounded or they were

16 killed, but was it usual to appoint in such cases new

17 commanders on the part of the military authorities?

18 A. Yes, because there was a very serious front

19 line. We had daily attacks and we had wounded and

20 killed.

21 Q. Can you tell me, Mr. Dzelilovic, whether the

22 head of the police precinct was a member of your war

23 Presidency, and whether he was his subordinate?

24 A. The head of the public security was a member

25 of the presidency, as well as the Secretary of

Page 12562

1 Territorial -- of the Peoples Defence, but the

2 Presidency did not have a superior authority over the

3 head of the police precinct of the police. They have

4 their CSV subordination, this is the Minister of the

5 Interior of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 Q. Another question relating to the topic.

7 Could you tell me, Mr. Dzelilovic, who were the forces

8 of defence in Hadzici within that period?

9 A. Those were Territorial Defence and the units

10 of public security of Hadzici.

11 Q. You have already answered that since

12 Mr. Polutak came, from then on the seat of Tactical

13 Group 1 was in the area of your municipality. Can you,

14 as the head of municipality, although this data may be

15 more familiar to the commander or Territorial Defence,

16 but could you tell us how many soldiers of your

17 municipality were subordinated to the commander of

18 Tactical Group 1 during certain combat operations?

19 JUDGE JAN: You said 300.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's the number, yes.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Honourable Chamber, I may

22 have heard it incorrectly.

23 Q. Under whose subordination were the remaining

24 units of your municipality, those who were not

25 subordinated to the commander of the Tactical Group?

Page 12563

1 A. Those units were under the command of the

2 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence of

3 Hadzici.

4 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, tell me how long would such

5 combat operations take, how much time would they take,

6 the operations conducted by the Tactical Group 1?

7 A. Between seven and ten days.

8 Q. Were there any periods you had a more

9 extensive operation?

10 A. Yes. In August or November we had the

11 operation JUG or south '92.

12 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Dzelilovic, do you

13 know what happened to soldiers who were subordinated to

14 the commander of Tactical Group 1 after such operations

15 would cease?

16 A. Those units would then be returned to the

17 Territorial Defence at the municipal headquarters, and

18 then at those periods they were under the command of

19 the Territorial Defence headquarters. They would

20 return to their basic unit.

21 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, within a period of time in

22 the area of your municipality was there another seat or

23 a newly formed Tactical Group?

24 A. Yes. Tactical Group 2 was founded with a

25 seat in Igman in the Hotel Borik.

Page 12564

1 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know if a part of

2 units of your Hadzici municipality was subordinated

3 also to Tactical Group 2?

4 A. Yes. A part of our units of Territorial

5 Defence of Hadzici municipality was subordinated to

6 Tactical Group 1, and another part was subordinated to

7 Tactical Group 2. A part of units remained at the

8 front line under the command of the Territorial Defence

9 headquarters.

10 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know whether either of

11 the tactical groups, number 1 or number 2, which was

12 founded later, was in command over the Territorial

13 Defence headquarters of Hadzici?

14 A. No. They were never in command to our

15 municipal headquarters. It was in command only to some

16 units which were, at given moments, part of Tactical

17 Group 1 or 2.

18 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in accordance to your

19 knowledge of the situation in the municipality, has

20 either of the tactical groups, Tactical Group 1 or 2,

21 did they have command or authority over certain

22 institutions of the area of your municipality?

23 A. No. Tactical Groups 1 and 2 did not have

24 authority over any institutions excepting the units

25 which were subordinated, the TO, the Territorial

Page 12565

1 Defence units, subordinated to them.

2 Q. I believe we are clear enough, but

3 nevertheless I will ask you to respond to a more

4 precise question, whether Tactical Group 1 or Tactical

5 Group 2, did they have control of a prison facility or

6 did they have authority over a prison facility which

7 potentially existed at the territory of your

8 municipality?

9 A. No. Tactical Group 1, Tactical Group 2 did

10 not have any authority, any competence concerning

11 prison facilities.

12 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, could we now move onto yet

13 another topic, which would be of interest to us. If

14 you can respond to questions posed to you. In your

15 knowledge, Mr. Dzelilovic, did Mr. Zejnil Delalic in

16 1992, was he named or appointed as a commander of

17 Tactical Group 1?

18 A. Yes. After an accident that Mr. Polutak had,

19 when the place was -- the post was vacant, then the

20 commander of Tactical Group 1 became Zejnil Delalic.

21 It seems to me it was in July or August, beginning of

22 August.

23 Q. Have you met him right away when he came to

24 Pazaric, i.e. the area of your municipality, and can

25 you remember who was with him at the time?

Page 12566

1 A. I met him, I went to congratulate him, and he

2 had with him the head of the Territorial Defence,

3 commander Sucho Paritza (phoen). I congratulated him,

4 I wished him all the best, because the war on the front

5 line in my municipality was a very hard one.

6 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, from that moment when

7 Mr. Delalic, as you say, at the end of July or

8 beginning of August, when he was appointed as a

9 commander of Tactical Group 1, from that moment on did

10 he become a superior authority over the Municipal

11 Assembly, the war Presidency, or personally yourself?

12 A. No. I never had anybody as my superior

13 authority, any commander. He was only in command of

14 the units or parts of the units of our Territorial

15 Defence which became part of Tactical Group 1. The

16 principle is the same as it was when Mr. Polutak was in

17 charge, so he does not have a superior authority over

18 war Presidency of our municipality. This is

19 impossible.

20 Q. Do you know, from the moment of his

21 appearance when he came, did he become the superior

22 authority to the Territorial Defence headquarters of

23 your municipality?

24 A. No. I have already said that. He is only in

25 command of those parts of units which were transferred

Page 12567

1 from the Territorial Defence of Hadzici and put under

2 the command of Tactical Group 1.

3 Q. Do you know if within that period a certain

4 number of units was subordinated to Mr. Delalic as the

5 commander of Tactical Group 1?

6 A. Excuse me?

7 Q. Do you know whether a part of units from the

8 Municipality of Hadzici was subordinated to Tactical

9 Group 1 at the time of -- when Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

10 commander?

11 A. Yes. He was in command -- those units were

12 subordinated to Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2,

13 that is a part of units of our Territorial Defence.

14 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know who was the

15 commander of Tactical Group 2?

16 A. Commander of Tactical Group 2 was Mirsad

17 Catic and after he had been wounded, this function was

18 taken over by the chief of staff, a Mr. Huso Alic, I

19 believe.

20 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know under whose

21 authority were the prisons in the area?

22 A. The prisons were under the authority of the

23 public security stations in my municipality.

24 Q. Since you stated, Mr. Dzelilovic, that the

25 formations of the armed forces in your municipality

Page 12568

1 were composed of the MUP units and Territorial Defence

2 units, could you tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

3 ever commander of all the formations in the area? That

4 is, the MUP units, the Territorial Defence units in the

5 territory of your municipality.

6 A. No, never. He was only the commander of the

7 units who were subordinated to Tactical Group 1. I

8 believe that this is quite clear.

9 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, at that time, in 1992, in the

10 territory of the Hadzici municipality, did any judicial

11 bodies function? That is, Courts' and Prosecutor's

12 offices.

13 A. No, Prosecutor's offices did not exist at the

14 time in Hadzici. We belong to the judicial area of

15 Sarajevo. That is, our municipality is within the

16 competence of the Sarajevo courts. We only had a

17 magistrate court.

18 Q. Thank you. The court already knows that the

19 magistrate's court is an administrative type of court.

20 And right now I would like to ask you something else,

21 Mr. Dzelilovic. As the President of the municipality,

22 did you have authority to establish a court or public

23 Prosecutor's office on the territory of your

24 municipality and did you have authority to appoint

25 judges?

Page 12569

1 A. No. I did not. This is not within the

2 authority of the municipality. This is within the

3 competence of the ministry of justice.

4 Q. There's one other topic that I would like to

5 discuss with you, Mr. Dzelilovic, do you know where

6 Celebici is located?

7 A. Yes, I do. Celebici is located on the M-17

8 road in the direction of Jablanica.

9 Q. At that time, in 1992, did you know that

10 there was a barracks there?

11 A. Yes, I knew even before the war that there

12 used to be a military barracks.

13 Q. In 1992, did you ever visit the barracks in

14 Celebici?

15 A. No, never.

16 Q. In 1992, Mr. Dzelilovic, were you aware that

17 there was a prison situated within that barracks?

18 A. No, I was not.

19 Q. Again, in 1992, or at any other point later

20 on, did you learn that Tactical Group 1 or its

21 commander, Zejnil Delalic, had any authority over that

22 prison?

23 A. No, this can't be.

24 JUDGE JAN: How can he say that?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't hear that there

Page 12570

1 was any prison there.

2 JUDGE JAN: In any case, how can he say

3 that?


5 Q. Finally, several very brief questions

6 regarding one particular issue. Mr. Dzelilovic, you

7 said that the western side, your municipality

8 borders with Kiseljak. Could you tell me whether in

9 1992, on the territory of your municipality, whether

10 there were any problems with the HVO forces, although,

11 at the beginning, the HVO forces and the forces of BiH

12 army acted together?

13 A. On the territory of the Hadzici municipality

14 there were no HVO forces. However, we had to use the

15 road via Kresevo and Kiseljak and we encountered a

16 number of problems when we wanted to pass through that

17 area. Conveys were looted and people were arrested and

18 so on.

19 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about

20 that?

21 A. Yes, I was arrested by the HVO on nine

22 occasions.

23 Q. Are you aware that at the time these forces

24 conducted propaganda against a certain number of

25 people?

Page 12571

1 A. Yes, I am aware about this propaganda. It

2 was constant. The object was to discredit the

3 politicians in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was a campaign

4 conducted by the media and it lasted throughout the

5 war. I guess this is the usual thing that happens in

6 any war.

7 Q. And one last question, Mr. Dzelilovic,

8 considering the fact that the seat of commanders of

9 Tactical Groups 1 and 2 were in your area, do you have

10 any personal knowledge that in that time, there was a

11 very severe campaign that was being conducted against

12 the commanders, Delalic and Catic.

13 A. Yes, yes, I know that that propaganda was

14 master-minded in order to endanger the morale of the

15 members of the BiH army.

16 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, in spite of all these efforts

17 to lift the blockade of the town, how long did these

18 military activities last in your municipality?

19 A. Well, military operations lasted throughout

20 the war. But when it comes to this period, the period

21 of very intense fighting, the operations lasted

22 throughout July, August and September. Unfortunately,

23 we were not successful. And we did not manage to help

24 the local population out and to lift the blockade of

25 Sarajevo.

Page 12572

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Mr.

2 Dzelilovic, this concludes my examination-in-chief.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

4 Any cross-examination?

5 MR. OLUJIC: Your Honours, Defence of Mr.

6 Mucic has no questions for this witness. Thank you.

7 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, the Defence of

8 Mr. Hazim Delic has no questions for this witness

9 either. Thank you.

10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, the Defence of

11 Esad Landzo has no questions for this witness either.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions for the

13 Prosecution?

14 MR. TURONE: Thank you, Your Honour, we have

15 a few questions.


17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzelilovic, my name is

18 Turone and I will ask you some questions for the

19 Prosecution.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, you told the court already

22 about the strategic importance of your municipality,

23 Hadzici. Do you agree with me that Hadzici had a

24 particularly significant importance for the purpose of

25 lifting the siege of Sarajevo?

Page 12573

1 A. Yes, it did from the strategic point of

2 view. On the right side of the Hadzici municipality,

3 there's the Mount Igman. And on the other side, to the

4 south, there's the Mount Ivan. So these are two very

5 important strategic points in the area.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have

7 admitted that's the case.

8 JUDGE JAN: You answered it yes.

9 MR. TURONE: That's enough for me, Mr.

10 Dzelilovic.

11 Q. Do you agree with me that for this reason,

12 Hadzici was chosen one of the two lines of attack in

13 order to lift the siege of Sarajevo? Is that correct?

14 The other line of attack being Visoko, you're aware of

15 that?

16 A. I know about Visoko, yes, but I can only be a

17 fact witness for the events that took place in my

18 area.

19 Q. Yeah, that's all right.

20 A. But I understand why there were attempts made

21 in that area because this was very close to our

22 municipality, maybe only 2 or 3 kilometres away. And

23 this is all we needed to lift the blockade of

24 Sarajevo. And that is why this particular location was

25 chosen for lifting the siege of Sarajevo.

Page 12574

1 Q. Thank you very much. Let's talk not about

2 the line of attack of Visiko, but the line of attack of

3 Hadzici, which concerned your municipality. Do you

4 agree with me that the line of attack of Hadzici was

5 the one entrusted to Tactical Group 1, is that okay?

6 Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And are you aware, by the way, that the other

9 line of attack, the one of Visoko was entrusted to

10 Tactical Group 2?

11 A. Yes. I don't know the details.

12 Q. All right. That's enough for me. Thank

13 you. Just about Tactical Group 2, you named some

14 commanders of them. Are you aware that another

15 commander of Tactical Group 2, some time at the

16 beginning was Colonel Rasim Delic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You mean you're not aware?

19 A. No, I don't think he was. I know that Mirsad

20 Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2. I know that,

21 but I don't know about Rasim.

22 Q. In any case, do you know this person, Rasim

23 Delic, Colonel Rasim Delic?

24 A. Yes, I know him. He's the commander in chief

25 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 12575

1 Q. And what about his capacity in May, was he

2 already commander in chief in May, '92?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And what was his capacity in May, '92, if you

5 remember?

6 A. I don't know what he did in May, I know that

7 at that time, the commander was Sefer Halilovic.

8 Q. I see, you've within saying something to the

9 court about the Bradina blockade, et cetera, and about

10 the roundabout routes that were necessary to reach

11 Konjic from Pasaric, do you agree with me that before

12 the blockade was eliminated you had to follow these

13 roundabout routes to reach Konjic, passing through

14 Fojnica and Dusina?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that's what he

16 said in a roundabout way.

17 MR. TURONE: Actually, he didn't say exactly

18 through which villages or town did this roundabout

19 route pass. I would like to know whether these

20 roundabout routes would pass through Fojnica and

21 Dusina?

22 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, they went through

23 the municipalities of Kresevo, Kiseljak and then the

24 Municipality of Fojnica and then all the way down to

25 Konjic. But we're talking about dirt roads and very

Page 12576

1 small roads going through the woods. If you have a

2 map, I could easily point it on the map.

3 Q. You said Dusina was on this roundabout and

4 that because of the M-17 blockade. Do you agree with

5 me that the attack on Bradina on May 25 was carried on

6 precisely in order to eliminate the blockade on the

7 main road, M-17, is that correct?

8 A. That was the basic objective of the

9 operation, to lift the blockade of the M-17 road and to

10 prevent the Chetnik units from joining with each other,

11 the Chetnik units from Bradina and surrounding areas.

12 Q. And let's go now to that day of about

13 mid-May, '92, when you met with Zejnil Delalic in

14 Dusina. That was, of course, before the blockade was

15 eliminated, is that correct? In mid-May, yes,

16 certainly so. Do you agree with me that in that

17 occasion, that day, you had a meeting in Dusina, not

18 only with Delalic and Polutak, but also with Rasim

19 Delic, Dinko Sebic and Hasan Cengic that day in

20 Dusina, did you see these people in Dusina that day?

21 A. No, I only saw Dinko Zebic, Polutak and some

22 other people who were escorting the convoy.

23 Q. So you don't remember having seen Rasim Delic

24 and Hasan Cengic?

25 A. No.

Page 12577

1 Q. What about Dinko Zebic, what was Dinko Zebic

2 doing there that day?

3 A. I don't know. I was just introduced to him

4 on that occasion by someone, but I don't know what he

5 was doing there.

6 Q. But, on this occasion, when you met these

7 people in Dusina; Delalic, Polutak, Dinko Zebic, do you

8 agree with me that you had some discussion about the

9 need for breaking the Bradina blockade, which was still

10 on, is that correct?

11 A. I didn't discuss anything with Dinko Zebic.

12 Q. I mean with any of the other people, you were

13 in Dusina on that roundabout route because of the

14 blockade of M-17 road, is this your testimony, that

15 meeting with these people that day in Dusina, you

16 didn't talk about the Bradina blockade at all?

17 A. No, the only reason why I was there was to

18 take over part of the technical supplies. That was the

19 only thing I was interested in at that time.

20 Q. But, isn't that true that during this meeting

21 with these people in Dusina, also the formation of

22 Tactical Groups, 1 and 2, was discussed somehow --

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He told you he went

24 there to take over his supplies. That's all why he was

25 there. That's what he has just said.

Page 12578

1 MR. TURONE: All right, Your Honours. I will

2 pass on.

3 Q. Since a detention camp for Serb prisoners

4 existed in your municipality as well, is that correct,

5 that a Serb detention unit was in the silos of

6 Tarcin in '92?

7 A. It was not a camp, it was a prison. And it

8 is true that it was located in Tarcin. And it's a

9 prison, not a camp.

10 Q. That's okay, a prison is all right. And then

11 focusing for a moment on this detention unit, this

12 prison in Tarcin, is that correct that the commander of

13 the Tarcin camp in ‘92 was Becir Hujic?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, what's the

15 relevance of these questions?

16 MR. TURONE: This issue has been touched by

17 Ms. Residovic in examination-in-chief, probably just to

18 try to show how prisons were regulated in a similar way

19 in different municipalities. That is why I think we

20 are entitled to go through that issue too.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that case, you might

22 limit your questions to that of Catic because he's says

23 he's never had authority over any prisons in Celebici.

24 MR. TURONE: I am talking about the Tarcin

25 prison. I'm sorry, this Becir Hujic was a commander,

Page 12579

1 whose unit did Becir Hujic belong to?

2 A. Well, let me tell you, as far as the prison

3 in Tarcin is concerned, it was under the competence of

4 the public security stations in Hadzici, that is the

5 local MUP. Because at that time, the Territorial

6 Defence could not have established a prison according

7 to the then regulations. That is, the captured sniper

8 shooters and prisoners of war were surrendered to the

9 public security station in Hadzici and they were in

10 charge of subsequent proceedings. And I, myself, was

11 never present in that prison, nor was I interested in

12 it at the time.

13 Q. But, do you agree with me that in any case,

14 in 1992, the Tarcin prison was under the supervision,

15 the superior control of the 109th mountain brigade of

16 the Bosnia army led by Nezir Kazic, is that correct?

17 A. No, in 1992, the prison was under the control

18 of the public security station. Only after the

19 indictments were issued, the military, whatever

20 concerned military jurisdiction, it was only then that

21 it was placed under the control of the 109th mountain

22 brigade. Because the cases dealt with war prisoners.

23 JUDGE JAN: Tried by a military court. After

24 indictment, the cases are tried by the military court

25 or the civil courts.

Page 12580

1 THE WITNESS: Well, I am not sure the police

2 was in charge of the proceedings and they submitted

3 criminal reports. I don't know who tried these cases.

4 I know that judges were coming, but it was only in 1994

5 that they proceeded with trials, as far as I knew.

6 MR. TURONE: Is that possible to ask for a

7 break and have, eventually, one or more questions after

8 the break?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're exhausted,

10 then you don't have to.

11 MR. TURONE: In this case, my

12 cross-examination is finished, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is the end of the

14 questions.

15 JUDGE JAN: If you don't have any questions,

16 you don't have to invent any.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any

18 re-examination?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Just one question, Your

20 Honour.


22 Q. Mr. Dzelilovic, during the cross-examination,

23 you stated the Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2,

24 this is what you stated during your

25 examination-in-chief as well. Could you just tell us

Page 12581

1 in which area of your municipality did this particular

2 Tactical Group operate?

3 A. It operated in the area of the Mount Igman.

4 Q. This tactical group, did it ever operate from

5 the area of Visoko?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Very invigorating about

7 whether Catic was commander of Tactical Group 2.

8 That's all that was asked. It was suggested that it

9 was him. It was then asserted, so I don't see why

10 there should be an ambiguity.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, it was not

12 clear in what direction it was. Because the witness

13 has just told us that the it was located in Mount Igman

14 and before it was claimed that it was in some other

15 area, and I was just trying to clarify this particular

16 point.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I did not even bother

18 about locations, I just wanted to know whether Catic or

19 some other person was commander of the TG-2. You are

20 now expanding it into the jurisdiction of...

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, from the

22 transcript you will see that Visoko was mentioned and

23 this concludes my examination. Thank you.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

25 Mr. Dzelilovic, thank you. This is all for you and you

Page 12582

1 are discharged.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

3 (The witness withdrew)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

5 now rise and reassemble at twelve.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

7 --- Upon resuming at 12.00 p.m.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, your

9 next witness.

10 (The witness entered court)

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness,

12 please.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

15 truth.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down. Proceed,

17 please.



20 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Will you please

21 introduce yourself to the court by stating your full

22 first and last name.

23 A. My name is Saban Duracic.

24 Q. Mr. Duracic, before I ask questions of you

25 with respect to your knowledge of the events of 1992, I

Page 12583

1 would like to draw your attention to a technical

2 point. You and I both speak the same language; you

3 would be able to very quickly respond to my questions.

4 However, the interpreters need to interpret every

5 question and every answer to one of the working

6 languages of the Tribunal, so that the Trial Chamber

7 and everyone else in the court would be able to follow

8 our conversation. So I will ask you to please wait for

9 my question to be interpreted, and you will hear the

10 sound coming from a set that is on your desk to your

11 left, and only then answer the question. In this way,

12 everybody will be able to follow and we will avoid any

13 confusion during this examination.

14 Mr. Duracic, did you understand the

15 instructions that I just gave you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Duracic, would you please

18 tell us when and where you were born?

19 A. I was born on 18 August 1941 in the village

20 of Koto in the Municipality of Konjic.

21 Q. What is your ethnic background and

22 citizenship?

23 A. I am a Bosniak Muslim and I am a citizen of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Mr. Duracic, where do you live?

Page 12584

1 A. I live in Konjic.

2 Q. What is your profession, please?

3 A. I am a construction technician.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, what has your

5 formal training been?

6 A. I completed secondary technical school in

7 Mostar.

8 Q. Mr. Duracic, where did you work before the

9 outbreak of war in April of 1992?

10 A. Until the outbreak of war, I worked in the

11 public utility company, water -- for water and sewage,

12 as a leader in the technical department.

13 Q. Mr. Duracic, where were you at the outbreak

14 of war in April -- on April 6th, 1992?

15 A. I was at work at that time.

16 Q. Did there come a time, Mr. Duracic, when you

17 joined the defence forces of Konjic?

18 A. Yes. Immediately after the first shelling of

19 Sarajevo, I joined the municipal staff of the

20 Territorial Defence.

21 Q. What were your initial tasks after you

22 reported to the Territorial Defence and were mobilised

23 into the defence of Konjic?

24 A. Since I am an officer engineer, my first task

25 was to provide security, in terms of engineering of the

Page 12585

1 facility where the war Presidency was to be located.

2 Q. As a member of the TM, Mr. Duracic, did you

3 know in April 1992 that the Territorial Defence of

4 Konjic was organised pursuant to the new regulations on

5 defence?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know to whom your municipal staff was

8 subordinate at that point?

9 A. The municipal staff of the Territorial

10 Defence of Konjic, due to the absence of the district

11 headquarters in Mostar, because it was occupied by the

12 Serb Montenegrin aggressors, was subordinate

13 exclusively to the republican TO headquarters.

14 Q. Mr. Duracic, I will not ask you any more

15 questions in this area. This area has been covered by

16 the testimony of other witnesses. And I'm also not

17 going to ask you any questions regarding the situation

18 at Konjic, and your particular work on the strategic

19 defence of it.

20 My question to you is whether you took part

21 in any combat operations in April and May, in and

22 around Konjic; in other words, when was it that you

23 took part in combat operations in Konjic area as a

24 member of the Territorial Defence?

25 A. My first participation in the combat

Page 12586

1 operations was in May, when the barracks at Ljuta was

2 liberated.

3 Q. As a participant of this operation in which

4 -- when the Ljuta barracks was taken over, can you tell

5 us whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic did take part in this

6 operation in which the Ljuta barracks was taken over?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Do you know where Mr. Zejnil Delalic was at

9 that time?

10 A. I believe that at that time he was in Zagreb.

11 Q. Mr. Duracic, was -- were there any changes in

12 the month of May in your municipal staff? And when I

13 say this, I mean were there any substitutions and were

14 any new commanders appointed?

15 A. Yes. Mr. Rejgevocic (phoen) was replaced.

16 Mr. Esad Ramic was appointed commander of the

17 Territorial Defence headquarters.

18 Q. Mr. Duracic, the court also knows what the

19 structure of the defence forces in Konjic was. What I

20 would like to know is whether you know, from your

21 personal experience and knowledge, what efforts were

22 made to place both the TO and the HVO under a unified

23 command which would lead all these activities?

24 A. In April and May both members of the TO and

25 the HVO, at least based on the knowledge that I had,

Page 12587

1 both had the same goals, or shared the same goals,

2 which was the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the

3 aggression.

4 Q. Can you tell me whether you know if in these

5 joint efforts, joint defence, anyone from the

6 republican headquarters of the Territorial Defence came

7 to Konjic?

8 A. Yes, I do know. At that time, and this was

9 right around the time when the new commander was

10 appointed, a member of the republican staff came to

11 visit, and this was Mr. Asim Dzambasovic. He stayed in

12 Konjic --

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Another of your

14 witnesses, isn't it? Why should he say what he is

15 coming to say? That witness is coming, so there is no

16 point.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: I am not going to pursue this

18 line of questioning. But from all this testimony of

19 different citizens of Konjic, you realise that we are

20 laying the foundation for calling Mr. Dzambasovic. I

21 only wanted to link up Mr. Duracic's acquaintance with

22 Mr. Dzambasovic.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Call him what you've

24 called him to say. What he can testify to, let him say

25 that. When Asim comes, he should say what he is called

Page 12588

1 upon to testify to. Now you expect him to testify

2 about the Arab journalist, isn't it?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but he also will testify

4 to some other activities of Mr. Zejnil Delalic, in that

5 period of time, which is relevant for Mr. Delalic's

6 defence.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let him go ahead and

8 say.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Duracic, can you tell me whether during

11 sometime in May of 1992 you became a member of the

12 joint command?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us when this was and to what

15 position you were appointed?

16 A. I believe that this was in the latter half of

17 May, sometime around 17th or 18th of May, after a

18 meeting of the military top (sic) and the war

19 Presidency. I was not present at the meeting in the

20 morning.

21 Q. Go ahead, please.

22 A. But I did attend the meeting in the

23 afternoon, when the joint command staff was established

24 from members of the TO and the HVO. I was appointed to

25 the position of the chief of engineering.

Page 12589

1 Q. May the witness please be shown Exhibit

2 number D145(5/10), and the reference number is 7009 to

3 7011.

4 Mr. Duracic, will you please place the

5 English translation of this text on the ELMO and please

6 review the Bosnian version of the same document.

7 Mr. Duracic, do you recognise this chart?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What is it?

10 A. This is the organisation chart of the joint

11 command, and here it also gives the Croatian word for

12 it, which is Istosha (phoen), but it's the

13 organisational chart of the joint command of the

14 defence forces of Konjic.

15 Q. Thank you. Could you please point to your

16 position, that is to the duties to which you were

17 appointed? There is a pointer, which you may want to

18 use to show it on the English version on the chart.

19 Thank you, sir.

20 This sufficient, Mr. Duracic. The chart can

21 be returned. It has already been introduced as a

22 Defence Exhibit.

23 Mr. Duracic, did you know Mr. Zejnil Delalic

24 before the war?

25 A. Yes. I knew him from the 1980's on through

Page 12590

1 1992. We were acquaintances, I knew Zejnil casually,

2 but I was not part of his circle.

3 Q. Mr. Duracic, did you meet Mr. Zejnil Delalic

4 during the initial stages of the war in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and when did this first meeting

6 take place?

7 A. The first meeting between myself and

8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, at the beginning of the war, took

9 place when I was tasked by the municipal TO staff to

10 work on the -- on securing the war presidency facility

11 in terms of engineering works. I was told that the war

12 presidency, but all the logistical support, that means

13 sand bags, construction material, cement blocks, et

14 cetera, that for all that material I needed to go to

15 Mr. Delalic.

16 Q. A moment ago you said that you were -- that

17 you attended a meeting on the 17th or 18th of May, when

18 you were appointed the chief of engineers. Can you

19 tell me whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic attended this

20 meeting?

21 A. No. By no means. Because -- I'm sorry. I

22 believe that at that time he was still in Zagreb.

23 Q. Based on what you knew then, did Mr. -- was

24 Mr. Delalic appointed at that time, or at any

25 subsequent time, to any duty in either the municipal

Page 12591

1 staff or the joint command?

2 A. The answer to this question is no.

3 Q. As a member of staff, did you learn at some

4 point in May, or thereabouts, that Mr. Delalic was

5 tasked with something by the war Presidency?

6 A. Yes. He was tasked to use his channels in

7 Zagreb to acquire some equipment and, if possible,

8 weapons for the joint command, and for the units

9 belonging to this joint command.

10 Q. Mr. Duracic, do you know that at some point

11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic was appointed coordinator?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me whether you know who

14 appointed him?

15 A. It was the war Presidency.

16 Q. Mr. Duracic, was Zejnil Delalic's coordinator

17 ever superior officer to you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Mr. Zejnil Delalic.

20 A. No. Zejnil Delalic was a civilian and I was

21 a soldier.

22 Q. Since, as you said, you were involved in

23 joint tasks, can you tell me whether Mr. Delalic, as

24 coordinator, had some officials or other persons who

25 were subordinate to him?

Page 12592

1 A. I don't think he did have -- the position of

2 coordinator is a position of an individual who works as

3 a go-between between two different structures.

4 Q. Mr. Duracic, as a soldier or member of the

5 joint staff, did you ever receive any order from

6 Mr. Delalic's coordinator?

7 A. No.

8 Q. My apologies to you, Mr. Duracic, for asking

9 you a hypothetical question, but had you received an

10 order signed by a coordinator, would this order be

11 obligating to you, or binding to you?

12 A. If it were only -- if it was only signed by a

13 coordinator, it would not be a binding order for me.

14 Q. At that time who could issue orders to you?

15 A. At that time only the commander of the

16 municipal TO or the commander of the joint command.

17 Q. Another potentially hypothetical question.

18 If the signatures of commanders, there was also a

19 signature of the coordinator on one of these documents,

20 would that -- would you interpret that as a document

21 issued by the coordinator?

22 A. No. Not at all.

23 Q. Mr. Duracic, as a soldier and member of the

24 staff, did you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic as

25 coordinator was in a position to appoint anyone?

Page 12593

1 A. No.

2 Q. Mr. Duracic, do you know a person named Jerko

3 Kostic?

4 A. Yes. Jerko Kostic was appointed assistant

5 commander for security, replacing the former assistant

6 commander for security, Mr. Goran Lokas.

7 Q. Mr. Duracic, who in the joint command or in

8 any other position was able to appoint persons of a

9 Croatian ethnic background at that time, according to

10 the knowledge that you have?

11 A. The persons of Croatian ethnic background

12 could only be appointed to the joint command by the

13 HVO.

14 Q. Although this answer may exclude the

15 necessity for my following question, but, nevertheless,

16 in your personal knowledge, do you know whether Mr.

17 Delalic ever appointed Kostic at any function?

18 A. I have said recently that Delalic is a

19 civilian and a civilian cannot appoint military

20 functions.

21 Q. As a staff member, you probably know that

22 under the order of the commander, there was an unit

23 founded, which was supposed to be subordinated to TG-1,

24 could you tell me, Mr. Duraric, whether Mr. Delalic was

25 tasked concerning this particular unit?

Page 12594

1 A. Can you tell me which unit we are talking

2 about?

3 Q. Do you know that in June, one unit from

4 Konjic left for the area of Pazaric and was

5 subordinated to TG-1?

6 A. Yes, I do. This is an unit under the name of

7 Gajret.

8 Q. Tell me, did somebody have certain tasks and

9 obligations for quipping that unit?

10 A. Yes, I believe that since this is one of the

11 obligations of the war Presidency, they tasked Zejnil

12 Delalic to equip the unit.

13 Q. Were you present when the unit left and

14 whether the headquarters -- was any mention how the

15 send off of the units should be done?

16 A. Yes, I was present. And at the headquarters,

17 it was arranged that Mr. Delalic be given the honour to

18 greet or to send off the unit because this was the

19 first equipped unit we had.

20 Q. Since you were present at the send off and

21 you also know for the arrangement, the headquarters,

22 can you tell me, Mr. Duraric, whether during this send

23 off relating to the Gajret unit, did Mr. Delalic have

24 any command authority over it?

25 A. No.

Page 12595

1 Q. Mr. Duraric, I will ask you something on

2 another topic. The tribunal has sufficient data that

3 the municipal staff planned and conducted the operation

4 directed toward Boracko Lake, under the name of Oganj.

5 And that prior to the operation, the HVO gave up its

6 taking part. Did you personally take part in the

7 preparation in the planning of the operation?

8 A. Not only me, but the entire joint command.

9 All the branches of the armed forces, the head of the

10 headquarters and brigade commanders, they all took part

11 in the planning of that action, which was directed

12 toward liberating of our occupied territories. And

13 Boracko Jezero UCA.

14 Q. Mr. Duraric, can you tell me whether Mr.

15 Delalic took part together with you in the joint

16 command in the planning of this particular combat

17 operation?

18 A. No. No, because at that time he was still a

19 civilian.

20 Q. After the commencement of the operation, who

21 was in charge of it?

22 A. The commander was. The commander of joint

23 command, Esad Ramic.

24 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, take part, direct

25 participation in the operation?

Page 12596

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you tell me what was your function and

3 what was your location, where were you during the

4 combat operations?

5 A. I was in Vranske Stijene. This is where we

6 had one of the centres for communications for the Oganj

7 Operation. The station was under the number Oganj 1.

8 Q. I was warned that the transcript may have

9 been -- there may have been an error in the

10 transcript. You said the commander of the operation

11 was a commander of the municipal staff?

12 A. No, commander of the joint command.

13 Q. What is his name?

14 A. Esad Ramic.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Tell me now, since you

16 were Vranske Stijene during the operation, how long did

17 the operation take?

18 A. It lasted a little bit over one month. And

19 the number of units for performing of tactical tasks

20 remained there longer.

21 Q. During all that time at Vranske Stijene was

22 there Mr. Delalic with you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Tell me please, Mr. Duraric, what were your

25 tasks, what jobs were yours at Vranske Stijene?

Page 12597

1 A. I was there as the head of the engineering

2 services and my task was to give security and

3 engineering to secure the directions of the attack.

4 And since this is an area between Bridiko (translation

5 interrupted) and it's a mountainous region, I had to

6 break through for certain links to establish the roads

7 because until then --

8 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on). It's not

9 his task.


11 Q. But I would like to know, since you were at

12 the same place, what were Delalic's tasks?

13 A. Mr. Delalic, since he had a two month

14 experience by then concerning logistical support and so

15 his only task was to transfer requests from units

16 towards the municipal headquarters towards -- through

17 communication links concerning logistical support and

18 security of units.

19 Q. Since you said that this was also a

20 communication centre, Oganj 1, one of the centres, did

21 you and Mr. Delalic report to that centre? Did you use

22 it?

23 JUDGE JAN: I think the transcript is again

24 wrong. I said you should ask about the task of Zejnil

25 Delalic and not his task. I don't know, what does it

Page 12598

1 mean? There are so many mistakes about the remarks

2 that I make. I am very sorry about it.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise because I cannot

4 follow the transcript at the same time. But my first

5 question referred to functions of Mr. Duraric and the

6 second one for Mr. Delalic. I believe this was also

7 interpreted in the manner and the responses were

8 according to that. It is impossible for me and for my

9 colleague who does not understand our language to

10 follow. We will speak slowly so that interpreters

11 could interpret because such situations were not in the

12 best of interest of the court.

13 THE WITNESS: It must have been interpreted

14 wrongly. The first question was, what were my

15 functions at Vranske Stijene?


17 Q. And you then described your engineering

18 services, is it true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The second question posed to you referred to

21 tasks of Mr. Delalic.

22 A. I also described that.

23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Duraric, since you were together

24 with Mr. Delalic for a month at the same spot, was

25 there at any moment, Mr. Delalic your commander? Was

Page 12599

1 he in command over you?

2 A. No, I have already said that. He was drafted

3 just recently. He was an ordinary soldier and I was

4 already the head of the engineering staff.

5 Q. In addition to you, who was also at that spot

6 at Vranske Stijene?

7 A. During the first days of the operation, in

8 addition to me and Mr. Delalic, we had the commander of

9 joint command, although by that time the HVO gave up

10 participation, then the head of the headquarters, Mr.

11 Cerovac. At that time, he was assistant commander for

12 operative tasks.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't concentrate on Mr.

14 Delalic at all. I thought he's your client.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Honourable Chamber, I will

16 repeat the question concerning tasks of Mr. Delalic if

17 it was misinterpreted. The witness did answer. Please

18 tell me what tasks at Vranske Stijene during that one

19 month on the conduct of the operation did Mr. Delalic

20 have?

21 A. During the operation at Vranske Stijene, and

22 not at Vranske Stijene, but during the operation,

23 Zejnil Delalic had the task that upon a request of

24 units who participated in combat operations, if they

25 need equipment, they would request that from him

Page 12600

1 because it could not -- they could not communicate

2 directly with the main centre in Konjic, so he

3 transferred those requests to Mr. Catic or Tahirovic.

4 Q. Again, because of the transcript errors, did

5 at any moment of the Operation Borci, Mr. Delalic was

6 in charge to you personally or any other soldiers who

7 took part in the operation?

8 A. No, never.

9 Q. Mr. Duraric, would you also tell me whether

10 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, concerning the tasks he performed,

11 was he able to give out orders to the engineering

12 services to the artillery or some other type units

13 which participated in the operation?

14 A. I don't know how many times I need to

15 repeat. I have said several times, Zejnil Delalic

16 could not give out orders to nobody in the operation.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 (Microphone not on). Not less than four times here.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours, I

20 believe this wasn't clear enough.

21 Q. Since you were at Vranske Stijene during the

22 entire period, at the place where you were situated,

23 were there certain visits from Konjic or from other

24 some other places?

25 A. At the area of Vranske Stijene, since the

Page 12601

1 operation took longer, longer period of time, and the

2 commander and commander in chief, Mr. Cerovac, had to

3 see the units, they would return in a day or two and I

4 remember that once the President of the war Presidency

5 himself came. I don't remember anybody else's visit.

6 Q. Mr. Duraric, do you remember that at any

7 period were there foreigners in that area?

8 A. Yes, I do. I believe they introduced

9 themselves as being journalists from some Arab

10 countries. I do not remember exactly which country,

11 was in question. There was a cameraman, a journalist

12 and a translator.

13 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, were you personally

14 present to the conversation that journalist had with

15 Mr. Delalic?

16 A. Yes, at all times.

17 Q. Can you tell us in brief what they talked

18 about?

19 A. They were mainly interested in why the war

20 began and then Delalic explained that there was an

21 aggression in Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the people --

22 there was an uprising among the people to defend

23 themselves.

24 Then he also spoke about poor equipment of

25 our soldiers. They were poorly equipped with arms and

Page 12602

1 supplies. Then he spoke about how western countries

2 still do not realise that this was an aggression

3 directed towards us and that the Arab countries get

4 very little help.

5 Q. Mr. Duraric, please tell me whether during

6 your conversation with the journalist, did anybody of

7 the present introduce Mr. Delalic as a commander?

8 A. No, by all means (sic).

9 Q. How were you introduced to each other then?

10 A. Just by our names.

11 Q. Since the chamber saw a few shots from the

12 area, a few excerpts, can you to tell me whether at

13 that region, were there any notices or signs written in

14 a foreign language?

15 A. Yes, there were. I believe that you and the

16 Chamber will understand that the lessons were

17 participants in the war, people of 18, 19, 20, up to 22

18 years of age. And to prove to themselves how big they

19 are, they would write such signs, such as pentagon,

20 NATO and others.

21 Q. Was there anywhere a sign saying, "The Main

22 Regional Commander"?

23 A. No, never. At least I haven't seen it.

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Duraric, did in Konjic exist at

25 all the commander of our region at that time?

Page 12603

1 A. No, it never did and it still does not.

2 Q. Mr. Duraric, did those soldiers maybe write a

3 sign that would mention in office?

4 A. I have said everything. I believe the sign

5 said what I already said. It was under a tent which

6 could contain until two soldiers. And I believe my

7 older son, and another soldier under the name of Irfan

8 wrote that.

9 Q. I would now ask to show the tape 2, just a

10 brief excerpt from Vranske Stijene to see whether the

11 witness knows the shots. It is only about a second or

12 two. Tape 1.

13 (Videotape played)

14 Q. Were you able to see, Mr. Duraric?

15 A. No, the monitor doesn't show it.

16 Q. Would you please rewind the tape and you

17 press the first button stating "Video Monitor." Could

18 you play it now, please.

19 (Videotape played)

20 A. Yes, this is the sign at the bottom.

21 Q. Continue please. Can the camera go up?

22 (Videotape played)

23 A. Yes, this is it.

24 Q. Thank you very much. It is tape used as

25 Prosecutor's evidence, Number 146. Do you, Mr.

Page 12604

1 Duraric, can you claim in full face that this is the

2 only sign that was created in the way that you

3 mentioned and found in the area where you were?

4 A. Yes, I fully acknowledge that.

5 Q. I would now like to ask you whether during

6 the operation, at a given time, was there a change in

7 the command post of the operation?

8 A. No, there was no change.

9 JUDGE JAN: Esad Ramic was injured and he

10 took over.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, that is it. Thank you.

12 Q. I would now ask you, Mr. Duraric, something

13 connected to a new topic. You, as Konjic person, know

14 of the blockade of the road in Bradina and the combat

15 operations directed to it, can you tell me whether you

16 personally had ever any contact with the barracks and

17 the detention facility in Celebici?

18 A. Yes, with the barracks, but never with the

19 prison.

20 Q. When and how many times did you visit the

21 barracks in Celebici?

22 A. When I gave my solemn statement.

23 Q. Although you were not personally connected to

24 the prison, did you know that the army barracks also

25 contained one?

Page 12605

1 A. Yes, I did. Almost everybody in Konjic knew

2 that there are detainees in Celebici and members of

3 SDS. We captured those people when we liberated

4 Bradina.

5 Q. Did you, Mr. Duraric, ever find out about

6 mistreatment of those prisoners or an abuse of them?

7 A. No. Although, my younger son during the

8 first days had a post in the prison. He never

9 mentioned any mistreatment.

10 Q. Mr. Duraric, tell me something about

11 something else I wanted to ask you. Did you at a

12 certain moment find out that Mr. Delalic was appointed

13 as a military commander?

14 A. Yes, we were at Vranske Stijene together

15 when, through communication links, from the

16 headquarters in Konjic, he learned that he was

17 appointed commander of TG-1. For all of us it was

18 great honour.

19 Q. Can you tell the chamber when this happened

20 exactly? When you found out at Vranske Stijene through

21 your communication links that Mr. Delalic was appointed

22 to the post?

23 A. It could have been around the end of July. I

24 do not remember exactly, but between the 27th and the

25 29th, I am pretty sure.

Page 12606

1 Q. I have a hypothetical question, Mr. Duraric.

2 Would it have been possible that Mr. Delalic, appointed

3 to this function earlier without his knowledge, without

4 it being communicated to him and without you knowing

5 about it at Vranske Stijene?

6 A. It was impossible not to know if such an

7 order came to the headquarters or the joint command in

8 Konjic. That same moment it had to be communicated to

9 the position where Mr. Delalic was.

10 Q. Mr. Duraric, can you claim that Mr. Delalic

11 was at Vranske Stijene until the end of July until the

12 moment he learned of the order of the notification?

13 A. 100 per cent.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your honourable chamber, is

15 it time for a break?

16 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on.)

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: About another ten questions.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's likely to testify

19 to. And you must have covered them all by now. Plus

20 ten more irrelevant questions. The Trial Chamber will

21 now rise and we'll come back at 2.30 p.m..

22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.




Page 12607

1 --- Upon resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 (The witness entered court)

3 MS. MCMURREY: Your Honours, I ask the court

4 to excuse Ms. Boler for the rest of the afternoon.

5 Thank you.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: I remind you, sir, that you

7 are still under oath.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you, yes.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed. Proceed,

10 please.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. Thank you, Your

12 Honours. Just a moment, please.

13 Q. Mr. Duracic, you will recall that before the

14 break we left off when you testified that in late July,

15 between 27 and 29, you learned that Mr. Delalic was

16 appointed to the commander of the Tactical Group 1. Do

17 you recall this?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Mr. Duracic, can you please tell me whether

20 at that time you became a superior officer to

21 Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did Mr. Delalic at that point become a

24 superior officer in charge of the municipal

25 headquarters?

Page 12608

1 A. No. Commander of the Tactical Group has

2 command and control only of the units which were --

3 which he was given to carry out the particular task.

4 Q. Mr. Duracic, did you at any time during the

5 period while Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical

6 Group 1, yourself a member of the Tactical Group 1?

7 A. No.

8 Q. And did you, during the period of time when

9 Mr. Delalic was commander of Tactical Group 1, were a

10 soldier of the Tactical Group 1 and subordinate to

11 Mr. Delalic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Mr. Duracic, I am going to ask you another

14 hypothetical question. Had you, as a member of the

15 joint command of municipal staff of TO Konjic receive

16 an order from Mr. Delalic's commander of Tactical Group

17 1, would this order have been a binding one for you?

18 JUDGE JAN: He has already answered that

19 question.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: He said that he was not

21 subordinate. My additional question to him was whether

22 he would still carry out an order which he might have

23 received from commander of Tactical Group. However, if

24 this -- if you believe that this is implied in his

25 answer that he could not carry out an order from a

Page 12609

1 person who was not his commander, then I am satisfied.

2 However, I am giving the witness an additional option

3 to answer this question.

4 A. No. In no way. It is only my immediate

5 commander who is -- whose orders were binding to me.

6 Q. Very well, Mr. Duracic, just a very brief

7 area of questioning. You testified before this

8 Tribunal that Mr. Delalic provided significant

9 logistical support of the Territorial Defence and the

10 defence forces of Konjic. As a citizen of Konjic, do

11 you know whether other citizens of Konjic also provided

12 assistance to the defence forces of -- in as much as

13 they could?

14 A. Of course. All citizens of Konjic who had

15 any financial means did provide assistance, and they

16 provided their financial and other support in provision

17 of the necessary material, and Mr. Zejnil Delalic was

18 certainly one of them.

19 I only want to point out that as a business

20 person who had spent a fair amount of time in the west,

21 he was much better connected, and he was able to --

22 much easier provide materials and equipment that we

23 needed.

24 Q. Very well, Mr. Duracic. This is enough in a

25 way of an answer to the question that I asked.

Page 12610

1 As a member of the defence forces in Konjic,

2 do you know whether in 1992 certain formations, like

3 Green Berets or Patriotic League, or other organised

4 groups, were active in the Konjic area?

5 A. No. I emphatically stated, with the

6 exception of the HVO, the Army, and the MUP, there were

7 no other armed formations in existence.

8 Q. You spent one month in Vranske Stijene in the

9 rugged terrain with Mr. Delalic, and you worked in the

10 field with him in 1992. Can you tell me whether you

11 ever heard or personally see that Mr. Delalic had any

12 responsibility or authority over the Celebici prison?

13 A. No, I had no such knowledge.

14 Q. On the basis of your personal knowledge of

15 these events, did you know whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic

16 has any kind of control over the staff in the prison or

17 the authority to punish these persons?

18 A. No. As I stated previously, I had no

19 connection with the prison. It was not part of my

20 responsibilities, so I was not in a position to know

21 whether Mr. Delalic had any authority there.

22 Q. And while you were together at the Vranske

23 Stijene, did you ever notice that Mr. Delalic had any

24 contact or connection with either the staff or the

25 prison in Celebici?

Page 12611

1 A. Again, I emphasise no.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you. Mr. Duracic.

3 This concludes my questioning. Thank you.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any cross-examination?


6 MR. OLUJIC: Yes, Your Honours. May it please

7 the court.

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Duracic, I am Mr. Olujic,

9 I am defence counsel for Zdravko Mucic. I would like

10 to ask several questions. I will be brief.

11 I just want to restate what my learned

12 colleague has already said, that we need to take into

13 account the needs for interpreting, and I just want to

14 recall that warning.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Duracic, during your

17 examination-in-chief, while my colleague,

18 Ms. Residovic, questioned you, you mentioned names of

19 Mr. Lokas and Mr. Kostic as persons who were in that --

20 in this investigative commission. Is that correct?

21 A. No, that is not what I said. What I stated

22 was that Mr. Goran Lokas was assistant commander for

23 security in the municipal staff, and after his traffic

24 accident he was replaced by Mr. Kostic.

25 Q. Very well. Can you tell me, Mr. Duracic,

Page 12612

1 whether Mr. Lokas was in charge of security? Would it

2 be correct to say that Mr. Lokas was under the

3 authority of the public security station?

4 A. No. It is possible that he had been

5 previously, but when he became member of the joint

6 command, he was under the authority of the commander of

7 the joint command.

8 Q. And could you please tell me where Mr. Kostic

9 used to work previously?

10 A. I do not know where he worked previously, but

11 I only know that he came from Mostar.

12 Q. However, you do not know where he worked?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Sir, could we say that in the

15 spring and summer of 1992, due to different

16 circumstances, the population of the Konjic

17 municipality was inadequately armed and organised?

18 A. Could you please repeat the question?

19 Q. In the spring of 1992, could we say that the

20 population was not sufficiently armed and organised to

21 counter what happened thereafter?

22 A. We certainly could.

23 Q. Very well. Would you agree that after the

24 fall of Bradina, which you mentioned, there were still

25 gangs of Chetniks roaming around the woods?

Page 12613

1 A. Yes, you could say that.

2 Q. Now, could we also agree that there were

3 other renegades and bandits around?

4 A. What do you mean by the others?

5 Q. What I mean is not just the Chetniks, but

6 others as well who roamed around and they were armed

7 and a threat to law and peace, law and order?

8 A. No.

9 MR. OLUJIK: Mr. Duracic, this concludes my

10 examination. I have no further questions. Thank you.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, Judge

12 Jan noticed certain misinterpretation. We have just

13 seen a misinterpretation which is completely opposite

14 of what the question that I asked was. On page 68,

15 line 10 it states whether I had asked whether

16 Mr. Duracic was a superior officer to Mr. Delalic. My

17 question was whether Mr. Zejnil Delalic had became a

18 superior officer to Mr. Duracic after he had become the

19 commander of Tactical Group 1.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: So can we please have the

22 transcript corrected.


24 MR. KARABDIC: Your Honours, defence counsel

25 of Hazim Delic has no questions for this witness.

Page 12614

1 MS. MCMURREY: May it please the court.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed. Do

3 you have any questions?

4 MS. MCMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, like

5 Mr. Moran, very few.


7 Q. Mr. Duracic, good afternoon.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I am Ms. McMurrey and I represent Mr. Esad

10 Landzo.

11 From your testimony to my colleague,

12 Ms. Residovic, I believe you stated that immediately

13 upon the call for mobilisation you joined the

14 Territorial Defence. Isn't that accurate?

15 JUDGE JAN: He didn't mention the call, but

16 he said immediately he joined.

17 MS. MCMURREY: I guess it was my

18 interpretation of it. If you say so.

19 Q. But you did join immediately?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, in fact, when you joined, your two sons

22 joined along with you, didn't they?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you knew Mr. Esad Landzo as he was

25 growing up, didn't you?

Page 12615

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In fact, you and your family not only lived

3 on the same street of 15th of September Street, but you

4 lived in the same apartment building, didn't you?

5 A. Yes, the same stairwell.

6 Q. And one of your sons was about the same age

7 as Mr. Landzo, wasn't he?

8 A. Yes, the younger son, the late one.

9 Q. In fact, when you say the late son, that son

10 was killed in an automobile accident in 1996; is that

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But your son was a friend of Mr. Landzo's

14 while they were growing up; is that right?

15 A. Of course.

16 Q. Now, do you remember Mr. Landzo as a boy?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Wouldn't it be true to say that he was a kind

19 of withdrawn young man?

20 A. Yes, something like that.

21 Q. And another thing about your apartment

22 building. In your apartment building, Serbs, Croats

23 and Muslims all lived in harmony together, until the

24 war broke out, and there wasn't any prejudice among

25 you, was there?

Page 12616

1 A. Certainly.

2 Q. And your late son that grew up with

3 Mr. Landzo, he was one of the young recruits for the

4 Territorial Defence that was transferred to Celebici

5 sometime in the middle of June of 1992; isn't that

6 true?

7 A. It was in the first week of June, and he only

8 stayed there for one week.

9 Q. Your son was there for one week; is that

10 true?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And your son never mentioned any mistreatment

13 of any prisoners while he was there, did he?

14 A. No, not at all, because in all likelihood

15 there wasn't any.

16 Q. And all of these young men that were sent to

17 Celebici, they were all 18, 19, 20 years old, with no

18 former military experience; wouldn't that be accurate?

19 A. I don't know who was in Celebici.

20 Q. Well, your son and Mr. Landzo, you know for a

21 fact that they had never served in the JNA, they had

22 never served any military duty before, had they?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And my one last question is: If you can

25 remember, your street and your apartment building in

Page 12617

1 Konjic suffered from heavy shelling and several people

2 were killed in front of everybody. Would that be

3 accurate to say?

4 A. That is correct.

5 MS. MCMURREY: I have no further questions,

6 Your Honour. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Duracic.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Questions of the

8 Prosecution, please.


10 Q. You said that you had met Mr. Delalic when

11 you were providing -- when you -- I withdraw the

12 question, Your Honour.

13 When you were providing security for the war

14 Presidency, you met Mr. Delalic at that stage; is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And who gave the orders to provide security

18 at the war Presidency building?

19 A. I received the order from the commander of

20 the municipal staff.

21 Q. And you were working with Mr. Delalic on this

22 project, jointly with him?

23 A. No.

24 Q. What exactly were -- what exactly was the

25 relationship between you at that stage?

Page 12618

1 A. It was just simple a acquaintance.

2 Q. Why wasn't this work carried out by the civil

3 defence, or the MUP?

4 A. Simply because I was a specialist for the

5 area. I was captain first class in the former army.

6 Q. Now, you said that Mr. Delalic was sent to

7 Zagreb by the war Presidency. Were you aware that he

8 had also received authority from the Ministry of

9 Defence in Sarajevo in relation to this project?

10 A. What project are you referring to?

11 Q. To acquire arms and equipment in May of 1992?

12 A. I did not know that he had received it,

13 because I was in no position to do so. It was not

14 within my authority to know these things.

15 Q. Now, if you were aware that he was authorised

16 by the -- he was authorised by the war Presidency to

17 enter in joint actions of troops at this time, that is

18 in May of 1992, would that alter your opinion as to

19 whether or not he had a military function to perform?

20 JUDGE JAN: Please ask the first question.

21 The question is in two parts, that he was ordered to

22 join the joint staff, and then ask the next question.

23 MR. NIEMANN: If -- I don't want to ask the

24 first question, because it doesn't lead to the end

25 result of what I want to do. But I'll ask him whether

Page 12619

1 he was aware of the special authorisation, and perhaps

2 it might be shown to him.

3 Might the witness be shown Exhibit 99-7-4,

4 please.

5 Just look to paragraph 3, if you would for

6 me, please. Now, I take it you haven't seen this

7 document before?

8 A. I have not seen this document before either.

9 Q. Now, it's dated 2nd of May 1992. Looking at

10 paragraph 3, does that paragraph alter your opinion as

11 to whether or not at that stage, in May of 1992, he had

12 any military function to perform?

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, the witness has

14 not seen the document before. He has already stated

15 his knowledge about the duties of Mr. Delalic at that

16 period and he did it very clearly.

17 MR. NIEMANN: I am asking him to express his

18 opinion after seeing something he hadn't seen.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It was not an opinion.

20 MR. NIEMANN: He expressed an opinion

21 previously.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're now asking him

23 whether he was having military responsibility at that

24 time. That's not an opinion. It's a statement of

25 fact.

Page 12620

1 MR. NIEMANN: I don't mind if it's a fact,

2 Your Honour.

3 Q. Do you believe that that changes the facts?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he doesn't

5 know. (Microphone not on).

6 THE WITNESS: I did not understand the

7 question of the Prosecutor at all, actually.


9 Q. Well, you said that in May of 1992, Mr.

10 Delalic performed only a civil function. I am asking

11 you to look at this document, which is in May of 1992,

12 and in particular, at paragraph 3. After having read

13 that, I am asking you, do you still say that he only

14 performed a civilian function?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection, Your Honour, the

16 witness stated what his knowledge was in 1992 and these

17 are facts.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that document he said

19 what he knew. As far as he knew he performed a civil

20 function.


22 Q. So, having a look at that document, you are

23 wrong when you express that opinion, is that right?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What he said was not an

25 opinion. It was a fact known to him. I don't think he

Page 12621

1 could be reprimanded because he did not know something

2 has happened. That's a different matter. He did not

3 say that it never happened.

4 MR. NIEMANN: If you had two states of

5 affairs, Your Honour, one which he believes to be the

6 position and one which is demonstrated by documentary

7 material.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He did not know this.

9 MR. NIEMANN: If he doesn't know about it,

10 then clearly it's a legitimate course of

11 cross-examination to demonstrate that he didn't

12 have these disposed war facts which enabled him to

13 express his views on something. That's what I am

14 seeking to do. I'll move on.

15 JUDGE JAN: Does that document refer to a

16 military function?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE JAN: What is the document?

19 MR. NIEMANN: It says, all kinds of

20 agreements on possible joint actions of troops from

21 other areas. Your Honours, perhaps, the document can

22 be shown to you. But I'll move on, Your Honour.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour --

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He's moving on.

25 (Microphone not on). So don't worry about it.

Page 12622


2 Q. Now, you say that when you were with Mr.

3 Delalic at Vranske Stijene -- I think I have got the

4 pronunciation of that correct -- that he was there

5 until the end of July. Are you saying at no stage he

6 returned to Konjic during the month of July?

7 A. I have said that Vranske Stijene, being the

8 terrain it is, we had no water, no electrical power, he

9 could only leave in the afternoon and return in the

10 evening to maybe take a bath. But I guarantee he has

11 not done that more than once or twice.

12 Q. Are you aware that while Mr. Delalic was at

13 Vranske Stijene, he signed a release document for

14 Celebici for a prisoner in Celebici, were you aware of

15 that?

16 A. Yes, I am. I was personally present.

17 Q. Now, had Mr. Cerovac asked you to sign the

18 release document on his behalf, would you have done

19 so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell me, when you're at Vranske Stijene, what

22 was the structure of the command? I believe you had no

23 ranks at that stage. That's correct, isn't it?

24 A. No, we did not have ranks, but we had

25 positions.

Page 12623

1 Q. I see. And Mr. Delalic had a position?

2 A. No, he was just an ordinary soldier.

3 Q. I see. So what distinguished an ordinary

4 soldier from a person with a position?

5 A. An appointed person has a responsibility.

6 Q. I see. But how would the ordinary foot

7 soldier come to know that? You don't carry your

8 authorisation around with you all the time, I take it?

9 A. I do not understand, who wouldn't know?

10 Q. How would the ordinary foot soldier know that

11 you're the person in command and authority and you had

12 no ranks, you only had positions, how did they

13 differentiate between people with no command and people

14 with authority?

15 A. Each commander of a basic unit knew who is

16 his commander and who are the personnel within the

17 headquarters.

18 Q. What's a basic unit, tell me about this, what

19 is it? How many people are in it?

20 A. The lowest unit was a squad, nine fighters,

21 plus a commander.

22 Q. And what squad was Mr. Delalic in?

23 A. We did not have squads when it comes to him.

24 He was a part of our communications.

25 Q. Well, who was his immediate commander, if he

Page 12624

1 was just an ordinary foot soldier?

2 A. Both his and my commander was Esad Ramic.

3 Q. Now, if he was in charge of communications,

4 isn't that a position?

5 A. No, since it was a communication station to

6 connect to other station, the main centre for

7 communication was in Konjic where the head of

8 communications was Mr. Sultanic Arif.

9 Q. So at this particular time, it's a fact,

10 isn't it, the soldiers wouldn't have known who their

11 commanders were, wouldn't necessarily have known who

12 their commanders were?

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Remember, Sultanic has

14 been here, one of the witnesses for the Defence has

15 been here, has been in charge of the communications

16 unit.


18 Q. Was Mr. Sultanic, Mr. Delalic's commander,

19 was he?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not at that time.

21 THE WITNESS: Only for that particular task.


23 Q. So Mr. Sultanic was there giving orders to

24 Mr. Delalic?

25 A. No audible answer.

Page 12625

1 Q. What about knowing about who was in command

2 of other units? How would soldiers know who was in

3 charge of other units or had authority over them, apart

4 from their own?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: The witness has already

6 responded that each soldier knew who his commander was,

7 and all the commanders knew who the staff members of

8 the headquarters were.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Well, if Madam Residovic cares

10 to read the transcript, she will know that I asked the

11 question.

12 Q. Which is, how did the soldiers know who the

13 commanders of other units were?

14 A. You do not necessarily have to know who the

15 commanders of other units were. He only needs to know

16 who his immediate commander is.

17 Q. You mentioned the visit to the mountain by

18 the Arab journalists, who brought them up to the place

19 where you and Mr. Delalic were at the time?

20 A. They were brought by our courier. Before

21 that they visited the office of the commander and our

22 positions of artillery.

23 Q. You would agree with me, wouldn't you, that

24 it was considered in your best interest to assist these

25 journalists and to provide them with information, so

Page 12626

1 that could in turn be transmitted to the international

2 community?

3 A. In any case.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can continue.


6 Q. Why did they introduce the Arab journalists

7 from overseas, who had come here especially to conduct

8 this interview to an ordinary foot soldier?

9 A. I have no knowledge of why they were

10 brought.

11 Q. Do you have any knowledge of why the person

12 that was to speak on behalf of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that location happened to be an

14 ordinary foot soldier?

15 A. I don't know whether this foot soldier was to

16 speak for the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but that was

17 the choice most likely made by the reporter.

18 Q. So, is it the customary practice of the army

19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, is it, to have ordinary foot

20 soldiers speak on their behalf to foreign journalists?

21 A. Until they were forbidden to do so.

22 Q. Now, didn't you say that during the Oganj

23 Operation, military operation, operation fire, I think

24 it's known as, Mr. Delalic had a logistics problem,

25 didn't he?

Page 12627

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You'd agree with me that the provision of

3 logistics, especially in the field in the face of

4 battle is a military function?

5 A. Yes, but only during combat operations.

6 Q. Now, how did you know that the war Presidency

7 appointed Mr. Delalic as a coordinator?

8 A. I knew because I was a member of staff of the

9 joint command.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't know that this

11 was in issue at all, his appointment as a coordinator.


13 Q. Do you know of anybody else who, or have you

14 ever heard of anybody else being appointed to the role

15 of coordinator in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

16 that time?

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is not a question at

18 issue and it did not refer to the army of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I am asking if he knew someone

21 in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who was appointed to

22 the role of coordinator at that time. It's a simple

23 yes or no answer.

24 THE WITNESS: You have to tell me who should

25 he coordinate with?

Page 12628


2 Dr. Dzambajovic clearly stated it wasn't uncommon to

3 appoint such a person as coordinator. It wasn't new.

4 So I don't see what this gentleman would say again.

5 Because that was the function of who appointed Delalic

6 as coordinator. He didn't find it strange.


8 Q. Now, who provided the necessary engineering

9 support for Tactical Group 1?

10 A. Do you mean the Operation Borci?


12 MR. NIEMANN: Tactical Group 1.

13 JUDGE JAN: TG-1 was with regard to the

14 lifting off the siege of Sarajevo.

15 THE WITNESS: I do not know who supplied

16 engineering support.


18 Q. I'll ask the witness to see Exhibit 193. I

19 have copies, Your Honour, of the exhibit. Have you

20 ever seen that before?

21 A. No, this is the first time.

22 Q. And your name appears there, does it not, as

23 the head of engineering?

24 A. Yes, I have read it.

25 Q. If you'd received a copy of this order, would

Page 12629

1 you have obeyed it?

2 A. No chance.

3 Q. Why not?

4 A. There's no signature by my commander.

5 Q. I see. Well, how do you know that isn't an

6 order that had been sent to you on behalf of your

7 commander?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, the witness

9 said he has never seen the document and to my question

10 that his answer was he was never a member of command of

11 a tactical group. I do not see the point in these

12 questions.


14 Q. How would you know that it hadn't been sent

15 out on behalf of your commander?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection. I repeat the

17 objection, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't see how it

19 concerns him.

20 MR. NIEMANN: It's his name, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It doesn't matter. He

22 said it wasn't signed by his commander. He said as

23 long as it wasn't signed by his commander, he would not

24 have obeyed it. That's what he said. You're now

25 asking whether it was signed on behalf of his

Page 12630

1 commander, unknown to him.


3 Q. If it hadn't been signed on behalf of your

4 commander, you wouldn't have known that, would you?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: I did not understand the

6 question.


8 Q. Well, I am asking you, you say that you

9 definitely wouldn't obey this order if you had received

10 it. Now my next question to you is, but how would you

11 know that it hadn't been sent out on behalf of the

12 supreme command in Sarajevo, which was ultimately your

13 commander, wasn't it?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I repeat the objection

15 because this is an inauthentic document.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He can answer it.

17 THE WITNESS: First of all, I would have

18 known because the preamble states, the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the army of B and H Tactical Group

20 1, and instead of TG-1, it should have said, municipal

21 staff, municipal headquarters of the Territorial

22 Defence or the joint command for Konjic. There should

23 have been full name of the commander underneath,

24 together with his signature.


Page 12631

1 Q. Now you said in part of your evidence that

2 you -- that some of the people that you captured when

3 you liberated Bradina were sent to Celebici, do you

4 remember saying that?

5 A. I have not said that.

6 Q. What did you say? Perhaps, I have got the

7 transcript incorrectly noted in my notes.

8 A. I said that when we liberated Bradina, they

9 captured and the entire Town of Konjic knew that these

10 captured people were taken to the barracks in

11 Celebici.

12 Q. Who took them to the barracks in Celebici?

13 A. I do not know that.

14 Q. You mentioned that your son was in Celebici

15 for a week, he was in the Territorial Defence, was he,

16 when he went to Celebici?

17 A. I am not sure whether he was in a member of

18 the Territorial Defence. I think he was a reserve for

19 the police.

20 Q. Now, I think you had mentioned at one stage

21 that the President of the war Presidency came to the

22 theatre of operations, military operations, when you

23 and Mr. Delalic were there together, do you remember

24 saying that?

25 A. I do remember, but he was not within the zone

Page 12632

1 of combat operations, but he came to the communications

2 centre of Oganj 1 Operation at Vranske Stijene.

3 Q. Did he converse with both you and Mr.

4 Delalic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what was he doing there, just inspecting

7 or what?

8 A. The war Presidency has its obligation to

9 support and supply their units, so he came to see what

10 our needs were.

11 Q. The war Presidency at a local level is also

12 responsible for the political direction of operations

13 in order to protect the municipality, isn't it?

14 A. No. This is solely under the authority of

15 the Territorial Defence.

16 Q. So are you suggesting that the municipality

17 and the war Presidency has no interest in the

18 preservation and protection of the municipality?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Objection.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You don't appreciate

21 this cross-examination.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: Had the President of the war

23 Presidency, it should have been clarified then (sic).

24 MR. NIEMANN: Could you answer my question,

25 please.

Page 12633

1 THE WITNESS: I did not say that this was not

2 an obligation of the war Presidency, but their

3 obligation is to support and supply the units which

4 perform tasks of defence of the territorial

5 municipality.


7 Q. Did you attend meetings of the war Presidency

8 or attend meetings where members of the war Presidency

9 were present?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. Did you ever have the task of providing

12 information to the war Presidency --

13 A. No.

14 Q. I'll just show you a document, if I may. And

15 I have a copy for Your Honours. Just looking the at

16 the second paragraph of that document, if you would, is

17 what I am mainly interested in.

18 A. I have never seen this document and I

19 wouldn't wish to discuss it.

20 Q. I just want to know from you whether the

21 reference in the second paragraph is a reference to the

22 chief of engineers services, whether that's a reference

23 to you? Says, "Introduction by Chief of Engineers

24 Service". And it may not be, I am just asking if it

25 relates to you.

Page 12634

1 A. If this were referred to me, it is most

2 likely that I would have received this document.

3 Q. You don't remember seeing it though?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you understand my question? My question

6 simply was, the reference there in paragraph number 2,

7 "The Chief of Engineer Service," is that a reference

8 to your title and position or was there some other

9 position occupied by somebody else who was called

10 "Chief of Engineer Service"? That is really my

11 question.

12 A. The municipal staff and the joint command

13 that would be me. But, I repeat, had this paper

14 referred to me, I would have received it.

15 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your

16 Honour.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any re-examination?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: No re-examination, Your

19 Honours.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

21 think you are discharged. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

24 witness.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I have the next

Page 12635

1 witness. I will call him. However, I need to let you

2 know that I personally do not feel quite well today and

3 if I am unable to continue with full concentration, I

4 will let you know.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You have a co-counsel,

6 who can carry on, on your behalf.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, but you are aware of the

8 fact that one counsel is engaged in preparation of a

9 single witness. I will do my utmost and I ask for you

10 understanding.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Incidentally before you

12 start, I see in the next list of witnesses you filed,

13 you're indicating that at some time your witnesses 1

14 through 7 are able to travel to The Hague between the

15 2nd of June and the 12th. That your witnesses 8

16 through 14 are able to travel, to testify, the week

17 22nd to 26th. Is that what you really intend to do?

18 You know that you cannot do that. I indicated to you

19 before we went on, for this holiday, one day holiday,

20 that you have to supplement your number of witnesses to

21 ensure that we take all of them. You now remember that

22 I said that?

23 Now, you think you can stall the progress of

24 the Trial Chamber by refusing to bring your witnesses.

25 This is what you intend to do. Well, you will have to

Page 12636

1 get updated and let them be here because we'll carry on

2 until your witnesses are exhausted. The Trial Chamber

3 will continue sitting. We will not, for any reason,

4 have a break for that purpose. If you are unable to

5 complete, you have to close your case. Call your

6 witness.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I will ask you

8 that -- to hear me out before this testimony. We have

9 done whatever we could, however, these witnesses have

10 their professional obligations. We have talked to

11 their managers, we have talked to some other people who

12 are in the United States. They had expected to be here

13 at another time.

14 JUDGE JAN: Please call all your witnesses.

15 We'll examine them.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

18 truth.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may sit down.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.



23 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. Will you please introduce yourself to the

Page 12637

1 court by stating your full first and last names.

2 A. I am Asim Dzambasovic.

3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, before I proceed to ask you

4 questions which I have prepared, I need to draw your

5 attention to a technical point. We both speak the same

6 language and you would be able to very quickly and

7 easily respond to all of my questions. However, it is

8 very important that each question and answer is heard

9 by the Trial Chamber and everybody else present here in

10 the courtroom. Given this fact, will you please, when

11 I ask you a question, you wait until it is being

12 interpreted, and you will be able to hear the

13 interpretation coming through a headset on the desk

14 next to you, and only then answer the question.

15 Did you understand what I just told you,

16 Mr. Dzambasovic?

17 A. Yes, I fully understood it.

18 Q. Thank you, sir.

19 A. Your welcome.

20 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell me where and

21 when you were born?

22 A. I was born on 27 June 1949 in Rogatica in

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Can you tell me what was your formal

25 education and when you acquired it?

Page 12638

1 A. I completed my elementary school in Rogatica,

2 teachers college in Sarajevo, military academy in

3 Belgrade, and superior military academy in Belgrade.

4 Q. So what is your profession, Mr. Dzambasovic?

5 A. I am a professional officer by profession.

6 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell the court what

7 is your rank today in the Army of the

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina Federation?

9 A. I have the rank of a brigadier.

10 Q. Brigadier. Where were you on 6 April 1992,

11 when the war in Herzegovina, Bosnia-Herzegovina broke

12 out?

13 A. On 6 April 1992, I was with the Yugoslav

14 People's Army and I was specifically at Han Pijesak.

15 Q. What was your specific position in the JNA?

16 A. My specific duty at the time was chief of

17 staff of the brigade.

18 Q. What was your rank in the former JNA?

19 A. I was Lieutenant-Colonel in the former JNA.

20 Q. Brigadier. Did there come a time in 1992

21 when you became involved in the defence forces of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. Of course I became involved. On 13 April

24 1992, I reported to the republican staff of the TO

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and from then on I have been in the

Page 12639

1 units of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. The court has already heard enough about the

3 armed forces at the disposal of Bosnia-Herzegovina at

4 the time of the outbreak of war. My question to you is

5 at the time when you reported to the republican staff

6 of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, did

7 Bosnia have this armed force at the time when it was

8 attacked?

9 A. Unfortunately, both in Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina, at the time of the attack and aggression,

11 did not have an organised armed force, and it took

12 steps to organise it as soon as it was possible.

13 Q. The court has already heard a number of facts

14 and witnesses relating to the arming of the Serb

15 people. Since you were a soldier, an officer of the

16 former JNA, until April 6th, 1992, could you tell us,

17 from your own experience, whether the JNA did arm

18 Serb population and the SDS political party?

19 JUDGE JAN: It is the position of the

20 Prosecution to examine Calic. Why do you want to go to

21 that question again?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: After Dr. Calic, the

23 Prosecution called another witness to testify to the

24 same facts, and I believe that these are actual fact

25 witnesses as opposed to the witnesses who were only --

Page 12640

1 who only testified on the basis of documents. I was

2 under the impression that the court prefers witnesses

3 who are direct witnesses to the facts. However, if

4 this is sufficient for Your Honours, I can move on.

5 JUDGE JAN: there is again a mistake in the

6 transcript. I said when they examined Dr. Calic, not

7 Zejnil Delalic.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE JAN: There is another a mistake in the

10 transcript. I said when the Prosecution examined

11 Dr. Calic, not examined Delalic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: As you see, Your Honours, we

13 are facing different types of problems. You see, it

14 just gives us an additional need for us to review

15 transcripts, which is an additional burden to us, but

16 we are grateful for you for pointing out mistakes in

17 the transcript.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mistakes happen here

19 repeatedly by so many witnesses. I think it doesn't

20 improve on what they have said. We've heard that.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

22 Q. Brigadier, you said that you reported to the

23 republican staff on the 13th of April. Could you tell

24 us now, from your own personal experience, whether the

25 state bodies did respond immediately by adopting

Page 12641

1 regulations that would provide for establishment of a

2 defence force?

3 A. Yes. As early as 8 April, as the state of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and was internationally

5 recognised. The state bodies did indeed take emergency

6 steps in order to adopt certain regulations and

7 legislation which would regulate the system of defence

8 as a whole.

9 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, in light of this fact, and

10 this fact is already known to the court, did you, in

11 carrying out these new tasks of the republican staff

12 and the Ministry of Defence, at some point in the

13 spring of 1992 did you visit Konjic?

14 A. Yes. Immediately after the new legislation

15 was passed on the 14th, 14th of April that is, I

16 received an order to go as a military expert into the

17 territory of Konjic municipality in order to organise

18 and assist the Territorial Defence in that area.

19 Q. Why did the republican staff decide that it

20 was necessary that certain experts within its ranks,

21 such as you, would need to go to the Konjic area? Did

22 the Konjic area have a particular significance for

23 defence?

24 A. Yes, among others. There were some other

25 areas as well in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Konjic was one of

Page 12642

1 the more significant ones. It has a significant

2 military industry. It has significant military

3 facilities, which were used in the system of control

4 and command and the communication systems. It had

5 significant depots, warehousing facilities, and some

6 less significant facilities.

7 Q. Very well, Mr. Dzambasovic. Can you tell us

8 how you personally arrived in Konjic?

9 A. It was very difficult. Even though the

10 distance between Sarajevo and Konjic is about 45 minute

11 drive in a car, it took me about three days to reach

12 it; that is, on the road, Sarajevo, Tarcin, Konjic, the

13 SDS extremists had erected barricades at Ivan

14 Sjedlo Pass so that I could not use that road to get to

15 Konjic. After that, on the suggestion of my staff, I

16 opted for a different -- Kresevo, Tojnica, Dusina and

17 Buturovic Polje Road.

18 Q. Thank you. When you reached Konjic, when was

19 this; what period, what month -- how specifically can

20 you remember?

21 A. This was the latter half of May -- of April,

22 18th or 19th of April.

23 Q. Thank you. When you arrived in Konjic, did

24 you at that time know the military and civilian

25 leadership of the municipality?

Page 12643

1 A. I did not know anyone, and this was an

2 additional difficulty for me. I didn't even know any

3 people there. I didn't have friends, nor did I go

4 there officially.

5 Q. When you came to Konjic, you probably met

6 these leaderships. Could you tell me who was the

7 commander of the municipal staff at the time of your

8 visit?

9 A. Commander of the municipal staff was also an

10 officer. He was a captain first class, Enver

11 Rezdepagic, who had been appointed after the new

12 legislation on the reorganisation, that is on the

13 organisation of the Territorial Defence of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

15 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, how long did you stay in

16 Konjic, until when?

17 A. I stayed in Konjic until approximately 21st,

18 22nd of May, 1992.

19 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell us what were

20 your priority tasks which you were supposed to carry

21 out in the territory of this municipality?

22 A. My priority tasks were to assist the local --

23 the military authorities to set up the Territorial

24 Defence in the Konjic area, and given that this was the

25 initial period and that in Bosnia-Herzegovina we did

Page 12644

1 not have enough professional soldiers, that is

2 officers, there was an urgent need to set up a popular

3 armed resistance as soon as possible.

4 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you now tell us what

5 specific steps were taken in the municipal staff of the

6 Territorial Defence while you were present there?

7 A. The organisation of this task is a very

8 complex one. We had conditions which were far worse

9 than the normal conditions under which you normally

10 would prepare for a military exercise. This was the

11 reality that we were facing, and a list of activities

12 in which we engaged in was a very long one.

13 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, among these -- on this long

14 list of activities while you were down there in the --

15 was the general mobilisation called in the territory of

16 the municipality?

17 A. Yes. Pursuant to the decree with the force

18 of law, which was adopted sometime after 8 April, and

19 certain instructions which we received, the general

20 mobilisation was also called in that area, as it was

21 called in all the other areas, and a number of problems

22 arose in that connection, especially the citizens of

23 Serb ethnic background constructed (sic) this

24 mobilisation in different ways.

25 JUDGE JAN: Please refer to questions which

Page 12645

1 have a bearing on the role of Zejnil Delalic.


3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, please tell me whether

4 during this period you met Mr. Zejnil Delalic in

5 Konjic?

6 A. Yes. I met him on the premises of the public

7 security station and the municipal TO headquarters. In

8 fact, we may not have met at all, but I was told that

9 he was a very interesting personality, that he was one

10 of the outstanding business people in

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina that would be able to engage in

12 logistics, and that in that respect he is probably the

13 most qualified and the most able.

14 Q. You said that you met him for the first time

15 in the TO and the MUP building. When you met him, was

16 he a member of the TO or of the MUP?

17 A. No, he was not. Not at all. At that time in

18 this period, while I was visiting down there, since I

19 had insight into the full structure and organisation, I

20 know that he did not have such role.

21 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, did you meet Mr. Zejnil

22 Delalic again in April, and if you did, when was it, on

23 what occasion it was, and what did he do at that time?

24 A. We met on several other occasions, and this

25 was precisely in this initial period, at the entrance

Page 12646

1 to the city or to the town of Konjic where his house

2 was located, and our contacts were social ones, that we

3 would meet to go to have coffee together. And he was a

4 very sociable person anyway. And since I had come to

5 an area which was completely unknown to me, he was an

6 interesting person to know and to talk to.

7 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, when you arrived in Konjic,

8 did you learn from the municipal staff, or other

9 competent authorities, anything about the take-over of

10 some military facilities in April of 1992?

11 A. It was something that I was interested in,

12 and, in conversation with the commander of the TO

13 staff, I learned that facilities near Celebici were

14 military facilities, that they were taken over in a

15 peaceful manner, which I was glad about.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we will now rise

17 and we'll reassemble at 4.30.

18 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.

20 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, Judge Jan raised

21 the other day, that an issue about Exhibit 99, P-99 --

22 JUDGE JAN: Translations.

23 MR. NIEMANN: All formations or the other.

24 We've had a certification of it, Your Honours, and the

25 translations section say the correct translation is all

Page 12647

1 formations. I have a copy with a certification on it,

2 which I would ask be attached to the exhibit. Perhaps

3 it might be shown to Madam Residovic as well.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, upon your

5 suggestion, we have gone through the document which is

6 the Prosecutor's evidence 99 and the expert's report

7 and we noticed a difference. Both documents, from what

8 we can see, have been put together by the service of

9 this Tribunal and there is a significant and important

10 difference, so we wanted to forward a letter to the

11 interpreter service to determine upon the correct

12 translation. What we could see, according to the

13 English translations, all the -- all that was

14 translated as formation or composition, but never as an

15 unit. So we find it best for the interpreter service

16 to go through both documents and have a written

17 statement on the correct translation.

18 JUDGE JAN: Because it makes a lot of

19 difference.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, it does.

21 MR. NIEMANN: We've had that done and that's

22 the response. Your Honours will see when you look at

23 the document, that it's been so certified.

24 JUDGE JAN: The two translations make a lot

25 of difference in the sense of how you understand it.

Page 12648

1 Is it units? Is it formations? That's why I got your

2 attention to this difference, so that it can be sorted

3 out.

4 MR. NIEMANN: That's what we've done, Your

5 Honour. The one I have just showed to Madam Residovic,

6 I didn't intend that she keep it, but that she see it,

7 would be attached to the exhibit.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: We agree because I can see

9 that there is a verification of the interpreters

10 service, so, therefore, this is an official translation

11 of the document. It seems to me in the transcript, it

12 was translated all the time as "all formation". So I

13 would request that this document be a part of the

14 evidence of 245/6-51 A.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can we continue with

16 your witness, please?


18 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Dzambasovic, you have

19 said to us that you were given an information about the

20 take-over of the Celebici barracks. Do you know, or was

21 it told to you then, who conducted this take-over and in

22 which manner?

23 A. I have said I was interested in it and I know

24 that this was done by the unit of the Territorial

25 Defence and the police unit, the MUP unit, in a way

Page 12649

1 without combat through peaceful means and I was very

2 glad about that.

3 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, have you learned then

4 whether Mr. Delalic played any role in the take-over of

5 the barracks?

6 A. I really do not know anything about that.

7 From the military point of view, I don't know how he

8 could have a role. And I believe that in that part he

9 played no role whatsoever.

10 Q. So you did not have that information at the

11 time. Mr. Dzambasovic, you came from the republican

12 staff of the Territorial Defence and the ministry which

13 were, at that time, the supreme command of the army in

14 formation. Have you had any knowledge about legal

15 authorities of the newly formed country demanded for

16 military facilities at the territory of the Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina be put under control of legal

18 authorities?

19 A. Yes. This was quite normal. A Territorial

20 Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not have military

21 facilities, nor the arms, nor the equipment. And we

22 tried to put those objects under our control and into

23 function. This was our interest, our goal as well as a

24 goal of all those who fought for Bosnia-Herzegovina.

25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Dzambasovic, after you have

Page 12650

1 learned of the take-over of the Celebici barracks, did

2 you, yourself, visit?

3 A. I visited the barracks on several occasions,

4 as well as other facilities in that area. For the

5 first time I was accompanied by the commander,

6 Rezdepagic, simply so that I could see the entire

7 situation and to, in a way, suggest or council what

8 needs to be done to establish a defence system.

9 Q. The chamber already knows that the Celebici

10 barracks used to be storage of the JNA. Would you tell

11 us, please, whether the facilities as you have seen it

12 during the take-over was prepared to accommodate a large

13 number of people? Could it be used for that purpose?

14 A. Those facilities were constructed with a

15 particular purpose, to store fuels and lubricants, with

16 several facilities underground. And I believe there

17 were two or three buildings with three or four offices,

18 so there were no further facilities to accommodate

19 units or people. This was mainly storage space.

20 Q. You visited the facility with the then

21 commander of the municipal staff, Captain Enver

22 Rezdepagic. Tell me whether you knew who appointed Mr.

23 Rezdepagic?

24 A. It was known to me, I was interested in it.

25 As soon as the documents arrived, as soon as they were

Page 12651

1 put into force, the war Presidency and the municipal

2 staff wanted to put into practice as soon as possible

3 the new regulations, and they suggested the new

4 commander. And in the period of my presence, an

5 official appointment came from the republican staff in

6 Sarajevo.

7 Q. In your knowledge, at the moment, was

8 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, whom you've met at where you've

9 described before, did he have any influence upon the

10 appointment of the commanders of municipal staff?

11 A. He could not have had an influence. It

12 couldn't have been had by anybody, but anybody could

13 suggest. In this specific case, he could not have had

14 an influence upon the appointment of a commander.

15 Q. Since you spent almost an entire month in the

16 Konjic area at the initial period of the war, did Mr.

17 Delalic, under your knowledge of his tasks, was he at

18 that time a civilian or a soldier?

19 A. He was a civilian, and we even envied him for

20 not being able to be civilians at that time.

21 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell me whether the

22 period of your presence in Konjic, did Mr. Delalic

23 leave the area of Konjic, and if you have such

24 knowledge, tell us where he went and for how long he

25 was absent?

Page 12652

1 A. I have no influence upon that, but I know

2 from conversations with my associates, people that I

3 corroborated with, that since he did have all the

4 necessary organisational skills as testified by my

5 associates and because of his connections outside

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he left for Zagreb to deal with

7 issues of logistics or logistical support with

8 technical and material equipment, which we missed,

9 which we did not have.

10 Q. Your basic tasks as you presented them before

11 the court were about the helping of organisation of

12 Territorial Defence and defence in general in Konjic.

13 Probably opened up an opportunity for you to say

14 whether during the time of your presence there, were

15 there any take-overs of other facilities? Were there

16 military facilities and who took part in those

17 take-overs?

18 A. Yes. Prior to that I just wanted to say that

19 we really put a lot of effort and used all our means to

20 take over facilities by peaceful means. And we had

21 negotiations on several occasions. Those tasks were

22 performed by authorities and partially by our municipal

23 staff. After that, since negotiations were

24 unsuccessful, we took over facilities surrounding

25 Konjic by use of joint forces of the HVO, Territorial

Page 12653

1 Defence and the then MUP. These facilities were Zlatar

2 and the facilities in the region of Ljuta, storage

3 space and command post of the so-called ARK or D-0.

4 And another barracks which used to house a military

5 construction unit. Prior to that, before I came, a

6 military factory was taken over, so we had a full

7 circle by that time concerning the operation of

8 take-overs.

9 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, can you tell us who

10 performed those take-overs?

11 A. Those facilities were regularly taken over by

12 TO, HVO and MUP units. Other units were not present in

13 that area.

14 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, please tell me whether Mr.

15 Delalic in any way participated in the take-overs of

16 those military facilities and whether he was in Konjic

17 at that time?

18 A. He could not have participated. Those tasks

19 were mainly from the beginning until the mid-May and at

20 that time, Mr. Delalic was outside of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so even theoretically speaking, he

22 could not have participated.

23 Q. Did Mr. Delalic return from Zagreb whilst you

24 were still in Konjic, and can you tell us approximately

25 when was that?

Page 12654

1 A. Yes. He returned prior to my departure,

2 since, in a way, I completed the tasks given to me for

3 that particular area, and this was after May 28th,

4 maybe a day or two before he came in a convoy from

5 Zagreb carrying supplies.

6 Q. You have mentioned that on several occasions

7 you visited the Celebici barracks. Before the Chamber

8 you have described your first visit when you wanted to

9 see the state of the facility. What were other

10 occasions of your visit?

11 A. On the 2nd instance it was when we

12 transferred arms and equipment from a part of

13 warehouses in the Ljuta region, which was left after

14 air strikes of the former JNA. In Konjic it was a

15 regular incident to use aviation. We counselled

16 municipal staff to do so because there were several

17 warehouses with a firm roof. It was not a 100 percent

18 protection from the planes, but it was better than

19 keeping it in open space.

20 We put there the equipment and arms from part

21 of the storage facilities in Ljuta. After that we put

22 together a plan to distribute that between three

23 municipal staff headquarters and, to a content of

24 everybody involved, according to the percentage of

25 population between the municipalities of Konjic,

Page 12655

1 Jablanica and Prozor, and also according to the

2 structure of population according to their ethnic

3 background at particular municipalities. So this plan

4 consisted of the distribution of equipment and arms for

5 the Territorial Defence, as well as for the HVO.

6 Q. Brigadier, sir. You have said that the

7 defence forces in Konjic, at the time of take-overs,

8 were TO, MUP and the HVO. Taking into account the

9 existence of the HVO as one of the defence forces, have

10 you had any personal influence or participation in

11 efforts to form a joint command between the TO and the

12 HVO?

13 A. Yes, I have. I came from the republican

14 staff headquarters, where we had Bosniak, Muslims,

15 Croats and Serbs. You probably know that. And since

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina has been internationally recognised

17 as a state, it was only logical, and we insisted on the

18 formation of a joint command but, due to various

19 interests, that joint command was not established, but

20 only the Territorial Defence joint command or, rather,

21 the joint command between the HVO and the TO. And this

22 was very positive, in my view, for the region and for

23 the people of that region.

24 Q. Brigadier, sir, can you recall when this

25 joint command was established?

Page 12656

1 A. In the second half of May, there was an

2 arrangement between the representatives of the HVO and

3 the Territorial Defence.

4 Q. Thank you. Please tell me whether this

5 command decided to try to determine its tasks and to

6 distinguish those tasks from the functions and duties

7 that civilian authorities held in Konjic?

8 A. Yes, this was one step further in the

9 organisation of the TO. We advised to regulate at the

10 level of municipalities, who has the competence in the

11 defence system in relation to the structure between the

12 republican staff and local authorities, which are the

13 competencies of the civilian authorities.

14 Q. I would now ask that the witness be shown the

15 evidence D244(5I/7), page 145. D144.

16 This is an expert report, a military expert

17 report D144. This is a separate volume annexed to

18 military expert report.

19 To give some aid, we are dealing here with

20 separate files attached to the expert report. There is

21 an annex 1, annex 2, and annex 3. These are evidence,

22 separate evidence, 144, 145 and 146.

23 THE REGISTRAR: (No translation)

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: D144(V2). This is what it

25 looks like.

Page 12657

1 In order not to waste the Court's time, I

2 will come back to this document later, once it's

3 found. I think that we may have some discrepancy in

4 identification number, so I'm just going to reserve

5 these questions for a later time.

6 Q. Brigadier, before you left the area of Konjic

7 town, do you know whether Zejnil Delalic was appointed

8 coordinator by the war Presidency, as a coordinator

9 between this Presidency and the defence forces of

10 Konjic?

11 A. I did not see this in person, but I learned

12 about it. I learned that the war Presidency -- in

13 order to coordinate different activities between the

14 command of the municipal headquarters and the local

15 authorities, did introduce this position of

16 coordinator. In other words, I did learn about it.

17 Q. Thank you. Since we have found the document

18 which we were trying to find, you were talking about a

19 distinction between the authorities of the military and

20 civilian bodies, and I would like you to review this

21 document, so I can ask you a question in that regard.

22 MR. NIEMANN: (Obscured by translation) --

23 the document on the reference given. So if we could

24 possibly see the document, we might be able to locate

25 it that way.

Page 12658

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: These are the conclusions of

2 18 May.

3 JUDGE JAN: You are referring to the meeting

4 between the war Presidency and the joint command. You

5 are talking about a number of scenes there. How is

6 that relevant, really, at this stage?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: This is a question that I am

8 going to ask of the Brigadier, whether this is

9 relevant, and the Defence is trying to show a very

10 clear distinction between the competencies of the

11 civilian and military authorities.

12 Q. Brigadier, did you have an occasion to look

13 at it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know of these conclusions in 1992?

16 A. I am familiar with these conclusions because

17 it was really important. It was, in fact, crucial to

18 separate the functions of the local authorities from

19 the commands and units, because there were attempts to

20 one-sidedly do this. I need to point out that these

21 one-sided attempts were made by our HVO partners. They

22 did not want the civilian authorities to exist, but,

23 rather, that the command of the municipal staff or the

24 joint command of the TO and HVO was -- would be in

25 charge of all activities in the area.

Page 12659

1 Q. Thank you. The document may be returned

2 now. And my question to you is: After this meeting

3 and the decisions such as were adopted, do you know

4 that military authorities continued to engage in

5 military affairs and the civilian authorities continued

6 to engage in their own activities in the period while

7 you were still in the Konjic area?

8 A. Yes, this was to our satisfaction. Both the

9 civilian authorities and the military authorities were

10 established both in the Konjic municipality and in the

11 Jablanica municipality. And precisely because this

12 took place in this particular way, I believed that the

13 goal with which I had come was realised, and that the

14 legally elected government bodies would be able to

15 continue to function successfully.

16 Q. Thank you. Given the time in which you

17 visited Konjic, do you know whether in the military

18 bodies, that is in a joint command, a combat operation

19 was planned in order to lift the blockade of the town?

20 And the Trial Chamber already knows that at that time

21 the town was under a blockade.

22 A. As a result of establishment of a joint

23 command, combat operations to lift a blockade of the

24 town were developed, and this was done from two areas,

25 from the south-west and from the north.

Page 12660

1 Q. Brigadier, did some of these activities began

2 or completed during the period of time when you were

3 still in Konjic?

4 A. The preparations for lifting the blockade of

5 town started in the area -- in the northern area, that

6 is in the area of the village of Bradina. And also

7 preparations were started to lift the blockade from the

8 south, in the area of Konjic, Donje Selo --

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the relevance of

10 this? Is it really necessary for him to give this

11 evidence?

12 MS. REZIDOVIC: (No translation)

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is a continuous waste

14 of time --

15 MS. REZIDOVIC: (No translation)

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you think it is

17 relevant, because I do not think it is. We've had

18 enough sufficient evidence about preparation for

19 lifting the blockade and all that about Bradina, Donje

20 Selo. So many witnesses have given that evidence.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Perhaps -- I'm not talking

22 about Sarajevo at all, Your Honour. Maybe it's

23 misinterpretation. My question was referring to Donje

24 Selo, from where certain number of people were detained

25 in Celebici. And my question was whether the witness

Page 12661

1 knew this. And the follow-up question was, since he

2 knew of Zejnil Delalic's whereabouts, and since he has

3 made a distinction between the military and civilian

4 authorities' roles, whether Mr. Delalic as a civilian

5 took part in preparation of these operations?

6 A. Mr. Delalic did not take part in preparation

7 of these operations, and he could not have taken part

8 in them. But in terms of logistical support, he

9 definitely did make a contribution, and everybody was

10 looking forward to his involvement in this.

11 Q. You said that you left Konjic sometime around

12 May 21, 22. Where did you go after that,

13 Mr. Dzambasovic?

14 A. After the completion of my task, I was due to

15 go to back to Sarajevo. However, since this was

16 physically impossible, I went back to Visoko, where

17 there was a group of officers at a forward command

18 post, and they were with the republican staff and later

19 the supreme command of the BiH Army. I joined this

20 group and continued to work there until October.

21 Q. After you left Konjic, did you again meet

22 Mr. Delic in 1992, and what was he engaged in and what

23 was his position at the time?

24 A. Yes, we did meet after a longer period of

25 time in the area of Mount Igman sometime in early

Page 12662

1 August of 1992. I came to Igman to carry out a task

2 and, at that time, Mr. Delalic was commander of the

3 Tactical Group 1, so that we needed to meet and we

4 did.

5 Q. Do you know whom Mr. Delalic replaced in this

6 position and what were the reasons for the replacement

7 of the previous commander?

8 JUDGE JAN: You've got that already Mustafa

9 Polutak was injured and he was replaced. That's what

10 your previous witness has said.


12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Mustafa Polutak is probably

13 going to be best able to explain that.

14 JUDGE JAN: Ask him.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE JAN: We've got evidence from your

17 other witnesses that he was injured and he had to be

18 replaced and he was replaced by Zejnil Delalic.


20 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, since you were in a former

21 command post in Visoko, which was the former command

22 post of the main headquarters, do you know the reasons

23 why Mr. Delalic became commander of Tactical Group 1

24 even though he did not have previous military training

25 for that?

Page 12663

1 A. Personally I believe that the honourable

2 judges know that there were many reasons for decisions

3 of this kind. We did not have an officers' corps.

4 That was the main reason. Even today we have civilians

5 in positions of command and they perform military

6 functions. And since Mr. Delalic possessed great

7 organisational skills, and also given that he has given

8 great contribution in logistical support, this was

9 respected very much by the population. And he was

10 well-respected not only in the Konjic area, but

11 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Since you worked with Mr. Delalic during this

13 period, can you tell me whether you know if there were

14 military officers in the Tactical Group 1 headquarters

15 who could have supplemented the skills needed for a

16 commander?

17 A. Yes, of course. There was not a single

18 command where there were no military experts, including

19 the Tactical Group 1. There were several officers

20 there, professional officers, who had certain military

21 training and specialisation for certain things. And

22 they were able to assess the situation and give the

23 right suggestions.

24 Q. Yes, go ahead.

25 A. My apologies. So we relied on people who

Page 12664

1 were able, who knew how and did organise and then we

2 also added to these commands people who for jobs for

3 which a military expert was essential.

4 Q. When it came to Visoko, Mr. Dzambasovic, did

5 you have a duty that was similar to those held

6 initially by Mr. Polutak and later by Mr. Delalic?

7 A. Yes. In the larger east Visoko area, a

8 tactical group Visoko was established. And I was

9 commander of this tactical group. In other words, this

10 was a process which then spread everywhere.

11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether in the

12 Visoko area, whether Tactical Group 2 was ever

13 established and was active in this area?

14 A. You mean Tactical Group 2 in the area of

15 Visoko, that does not make sense to me. Tactical group

16 Visoko was in the Visoko area. And Tactical Group 2

17 was established in the area of Igman. And its zone of

18 responsibility was from Grubac and Trnovo to Pazaric.

19 Q. As a participant of these events, can you

20 tell me where the command post of Tactical Group 1 was

21 throughout this period?

22 A. All commands, in general, including the

23 command of Tactical Group 1, had its basic command post

24 and, if necessary, it had forward or reserve command

25 posts. Tactical Group 1, specifically, for the most

Page 12665

1 part, was Pazaric and Mount Igman.

2 Q. When you arrived at Igman, what was your task

3 there? Did it have anything to do with tactical groups

4 1 and 2?

5 A. Did Mr. Delalic have anything to do with

6 Tactical Group 1 or 2?

7 Q. No, that was not my question and I apologise

8 if I did not frame my question well. You arrived at

9 Igman in early August and that's when you met Mr.

10 Delalic again. Can you tell me, what was your military

11 task when you arrived there?

12 A. Very well, thank you. Let me answer that.

13 When we talk about the area of Mount Igman, the

14 military situation there had become more complex by

15 wounding of the commander of Tactical Group 2, Mr.

16 Catic, and killing of certain members of his staff. I

17 was tasked to see to it that the situation be remedied

18 and brought back to normal to coordinate tasks between

19 Tactical Group 1 and Tactical Group 2.

20 Q. I would like now to show the witness Exhibit

21 D145, Annex 6/6.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To Tactical Group 2.

24 Shifting attention to that?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: No. No, Your Honour. This

Page 12666

1 is coordination between Tactical Group 1 and Tactical

2 Group 2. May the English translation be placed on the

3 ELMO so that everybody in the courtroom could see it.

4 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, are you familiar with this

5 document? Did you receive this appointment?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Dzambasovic, under 3, you can see that

8 you were appointed leader of the temporary coordinating

9 body between the Tactical Groups 1 and 2, can you tell

10 me what kind of coordination is implied here? Is this

11 civilian coordination or is this military

12 coordination?

13 A. This is exclusively coordination on military

14 matters. And the concept of coordination in military

15 terms is something that is known in the military

16 theory.

17 Q. Brigadier, as an experienced soldier, can you

18 tell me whether there's a concept of coordinator in the

19 military?

20 JUDGE JAN: Why do you want to repeat it

21 here?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: If the Trial Chamber feels it

23 is a fact that's been sufficiently clarified. But I

24 have to point out that my client has been a coordinator

25 of combat units which had taken prisoners to Celebici.

Page 12667

1 And we have an expert here who can testify to that.

2 However, if you feel that this fact has been

3 sufficiently established and clarified, I need not

4 continue with this line of questioning.

5 Q. So brigadier, I will only ask you one single

6 question. That this military coordination, as it is

7 spelled out in this document, does it have anything to

8 do with coordinator which is appointed by a civilian

9 authority?

10 A. No, you cannot confuse the role of

11 coordinator in the area of civilian authority with

12 coordination of command and control. That is, with

13 military coordinator.

14 Q. Since this is a document which the witness

15 recognised as a document which he personally received,

16 I tender it into evidence as Defence exhibit because it

17 has been authenticated.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It is admitted.


20 Q. Can you tell me whether you know -- strike

21 that, please. With respect to these tasks, can you

22 tell me whether after this you took part in preparation

23 of a large combat operation, JUG, and whether Mr.

24 Zejnil Delalic was also involved in those

25 preparations?

Page 12668

1 A. Since we were tasked with being coordinator

2 after a short period of assessment, we reached a

3 conclusion that this function was inadequate for

4 completion of the task and we proposed to the commander

5 to set up and establish a temporary group which would

6 coordinate this operation and we called the entire

7 operation -- we gave it a code JUG '92 or South '92.

8 Q. Your Honours, is this a convenient moment to

9 take a recess for the day?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you don't have so

11 many questions, we'll take one or two questions and

12 then we'll close.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: I have several other areas

14 and I also pointed out that I was not feeling quite

15 well today, but I have a number of additional questions

16 of this witness, so I would like to ask to continue

17 tomorrow.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

19 But I'll advise you again to get your witnesses ready

20 for continuation because the Trial Chamber has no

21 intention of granting any adjournment for them. So I

22 better advise you about that. I have not been too

23 impressed by the record. There have been too many

24 errors. I think they should try and improve on the

25 transcript. It's not been quite confident. The Trial

Page 12669

1 Chamber will now rise and resume at 10.00 a.m.

2 tomorrow.

3 ---Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

5 the 3rd day of June, 1998.