Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13499

1 Tuesday, June 30, 1998 10.10 a.m.

2 (In open session).

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. May we have the appearances now.

5 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,

6 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with Mr.

7 Turone and Mr. Huber. Mr. Niemann is another courtroom

8 and will join us later in the day. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have appearances

10 for the Defence, please.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

12 I am Edina Residovic, Defence counsel for Mr. Zejnil

13 Delalic, along with my colleague, Mr. Eugene

14 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.

15 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning Your Honours,

16 Tomslav Kuzmanovic along with our legal assistant, Niko

17 Djuric, on behalf of defendant, Zdravko Mucic.

18 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honour, I

19 am Salih Karabdic, Defence counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic,

20 along with Mr. Tom Moran, attorney from Houston, Texas.

21 MS. BOLER: Good morning, Your Honours, my

22 name is Nancy Boler, I represent Esad Landzo, along

23 with Cynthia McMurrey, who will be joining us in a few

24 hours.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, you're

Page 13500

1 still cross-examining. May we have the witness now.

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, before we bring the

3 witness, there's a couple of short housekeeping matters

4 I would like to bring to the trial chamber's

5 attention. The first is the request for subpoena on

6 Mr. Ustalic and his wife won't let him come without a

7 subpoena. Will the Trial Chamber please entertain

8 issuing that one.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll try and ensure

10 that it's issued.

11 MR. MORAN: And the other housekeeping matter

12 is this: We have a tape of one of the prosecutor's

13 witnesses being interviewed on television. And there

14 is some question over the date that this occurred. Our

15 information is that the tape was on February 17th,'97,

16 approximately a month before the witness testified.

17 The Prosecutor is unsure. That is the subpoena we

18 requested for Belgrade Television. We would re-urge

19 that subpoena and I would also inform the Court that my

20 secretary in the States is trying to see if there is

21 some way that there is a company in America that

22 downloads these things from satellite and then

23 rebroadcasts them through cable television. We're

24 trying to authenticate it that way, but I think we need

25 to re-urge the subpoena for Belgrade Television just to

Page 13501

1 prove the date. The Prosecution tells me that in good

2 faith they cannot stipulate to the date and it is a

3 fairly important piece of evidence for the Defence.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In that respect, you do

5 your homework and then make the proper application.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Well, we've

7 already requested that subpoena and I just wanted to

8 re-urge it and to inform the Court what we're doing so

9 that, you know, you understand that we're trying

10 everything in good faith and why we're seeking these

11 two subpoenas.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

13 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, may I just say one

14 thing. I would just like to concur with Mr. Moran's

15 opinion that a subpoena will be necessary for Mr.

16 Ustalic. I spoke to him in Konjic when I was there

17 yesterday and he tells me that his mother is very

18 frightened for him to leave, but he's on our witness

19 list as well. So I concur with Mr. Moran's opinion

20 about a subpoena for Mr. Ustalic.

21 (The witness entered court)

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly swear the

23 witness.

24 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind the witness that

25 he's still under oath.

Page 13502

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Ms.

2 McHenry.

3 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.


5 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:

6 Q. Good morning, sir.

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. Now, sir, are you sure that you were at the

9 camp until the end of June or could it have been

10 earlier that you left?

11 A. Until the end of June.

12 Q. Now, you stated yesterday that there were no

13 other members of Mr. Landzo's family who worked in the

14 camp; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Now, did you ever hear Mr. Landzo talk?

17 A. With whom?

18 Q. Well, let me just ask you, you would agree

19 that Mr. Landzo has an unusual voice, wouldn't you?

20 A. I don't understand.

21 Q. Would you -- have you ever heard Mr. Landzo

22 say anything to anyone?

23 A. Never.

24 Q. Let me just clarify an issue. Yesterday you

25 stated in direct testimony, line 2746, that the

Page 13503

1 commander of the HVO military police, when you were

2 assigned to Celebici prison, was Mr. Alibasic. Now I

3 now understand that when you said that, it was a

4 mistake and you now say that Mr. Alibasic did not come

5 to the camp until the time you left. Is that correct?

6 A. After we left, he came.

7 Q. Did the War Presidency or the courts or the

8 Ministry of Justice, did they have anything to do with

9 the Celebici prison?

10 A. As far as I know, they didn't.

11 Q. Now, given that there are a number of

12 different entities in the camp, including the MUP, the

13 TO and persons from the HVO, who was in charge of

14 coordinating the activities of these different bodies

15 as it related to the prison?

16 A. I don't know what coordinator is.

17 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't ask you what a

18 coordinator is, I asked you, given that there were a

19 number of different entities there, I assume someone

20 tried to coordinate their activities; is that correct

21 or not?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: No, that's asking him

23 who is the coordinator is.


25 Q. Well, sir, did any person or persons do

Page 13504

1 anything to coordinate the activities of the different

2 bodies who worked in Celebici camp?

3 A. Only whoever belonged to whatever group.

4 Q. And was there anyone who was supposed to make

5 sure that the groups worked together in running the

6 camp? If you know.

7 A. I don't know.

8 Q. Now, you stated that you brought Mr. Cedo

9 Antic and Mrs. Milojka Antic to their interrogations,

10 so am I correct that in addition to your duties as a

11 driver, you sometimes brought prisoners to be

12 interrogated?

13 A. Sometimes.

14 Q. Now, you and Mr. Mucic do not have any

15 dispute or bad relations between you, do you?

16 A. I don't know why we would.

17 Q. And as far as you know, you do not; is that

18 correct?

19 A. I don't understand.

20 Q. You're not aware of any bad relations between

21 yourself and Mr. Mucic, are you?

22 A. I only saw Mucic once.

23 Q. Well, now if Mr. Mucic gave a statement where

24 he spoke about seeing you and Mr. Delic mistreat

25 prisoners being brought for interrogations by beating

Page 13505

1 them with a rifle butt and other things, would that

2 have been the time that you saw Mr. Mucic?

3 JUDGE JAN: It was a little complex

4 question.

5 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE JAN: Ask him the first part of Mucic

7 said this and then whether it was on that occasion

8 because he doesn't know what to answer and what not to

9 answer. So he will have a tendency to answer the

10 latter part of your question.

11 MS. McHENRY: Fair enough, Your Honour, thank

12 you.

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, excuse me, he

14 answered the question, but it was not translated or

15 recorded on the transcript.

16 MS. McHENRY: All right. Let me just ask it

17 again.

18 Q. Now, sir, were you and Mr. Delic beating

19 prisoners who were brought for interrogation at the

20 time that you saw Mr. Mucic?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. Now, you would agree that it's possible that

23 Mr. Mucic could see you on occasion in the camp when

24 you didn't see him?

25 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I object to the

Page 13506

1 question, it's asking him to speculate.


3 Q. Sir, are you able to answer that question?

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's possible.

5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I renew my objection.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a possibility that

7 he could see him without him knowing it. There's

8 nothing irregular about that.


10 Q. Now, sir, I assume you don't know why Mr.

11 Mucic would say he saw you mistreating prisoners if it

12 didn't happen?

13 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Again, Your Honour, I am

14 going to object, it's asking him to figure out what Mr.

15 Mucic said and asking him to inquire into Mr. Mucic's

16 state of mind.

17 MS. McHENRY: He can answer to the best of

18 his ability, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he doesn't know

20 him. He's seen him only once. How can he figure why

21 he should?

22 MS. McHENRY: I assume he can say then he

23 doesn't know why Mr. Mucic would have said this.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He wouldn't know.


Page 13507

1 Q. Is it the case that you don't know why Mr.

2 Mucic would say he saw you mistreating prisoners if it

3 weren't true?

4 A. Never.

5 Q. But Miro Golubovic was imprisoned Tunnel No.

6 9, wasn't he?

7 A. Which Golubovic?

8 Q. Miro Golubovic. Do you know a Miro

9 Golubovic?

10 A. Barely.

11 Q. And he was imprisoned in Tunnel No. 9, wasn't

12 he, for at least part of the time that he was in

13 Celebici?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You once brought Mr. Golubovic a blanket and

16 some toiletries, didn't you?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. And so I assume you also don't remember

19 whether or not it was Mr. Mucic who told you to bring

20 those items. I assume you don't remember. In fact,

21 let me withdraw that question.

22 Now, sir, the investigative commission

23 stopped working while you were still in Celebici,

24 didn't they?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 13508

1 Q. Well, did there come a time when they stopped

2 coming to the camp, or you just don't remember?

3 A. I don't remember and I wasn't around all the

4 time.

5 Q. Now, how much time did Mr. Musinovic spend in

6 the camp?

7 A. I don't know that person.

8 Q. I'm sorry, it's probably my pronunciation,

9 sir. Mr. Rale Musinovic, how much time did he spend in

10 the camp?

11 A. As much as I did.

12 Q. Would he be there for most of the day?

13 A. As needed.

14 Q. Well, would he usually just be there for a

15 few minutes a day or for a large part of the day?

16 A. As needed.

17 Q. Well, can you give us some idea of what was

18 needed? I know it could change, but can you give us

19 some idea, was he sometimes there most of the day, was

20 he --

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this witness in

22 charge of this other gentleman?

23 MS. McHENRY: No, he's not in charge of it,

24 but --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then how can he then

Page 13509

1 tell you as many times as he would be needed.

2 MS. McHENRY: He could certainly, I believe,

3 tell me when he saw him there.

4 THE WITNESS: What thing?


6 Q. Sir, do you have any idea, any information,

7 about how much time Mr. Rale Musinovic spent in the

8 camp?

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think he's

10 already answered that, he said as much as he had.

11 JUDGE JAN: He's being a little evasive,

12 maybe sometimes he was there for the whole day,

13 sometimes only for an hour. She wants to find out what

14 was usually the time he spent in the camp.

15 THE WITNESS: There was no need for me to

16 write that or remember that.


18 Q. Is it then the case that you have no memory

19 of how much time Mr. Musinovic spent in the camp?

20 A. He had his duties and I had mine.

21 Q. Well, I'll just take that as a "yes" then,

22 sir.

23 Did Mr. Musinovic have an office in the camp,

24 and if so, where was his office?

25 A. There were no offices there, just rooms for

Page 13510

1 -- with beds where people slept.

2 Q. So if I understood you correctly, Mr.

3 Musinovic did not have an office in the camp? Is that

4 correct?

5 A. It wasn't a real office.

6 Q. Was there a room where he spent most of his

7 time when he was in the camp?

8 A. Very little.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are the duties of

10 this Rale Musinovic? What are his duties? What does

11 he do?

12 THE WITNESS: He spent very little time

13 there.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As what? Is he a fellow

15 driver or is he somebody on some other duties in the

16 camp?

17 THE WITNESS: For the most part he dealt with

18 logistics, provision of food and such. And he received

19 orders from the superior command.



22 Q. And who was the superior command as you

23 understood it?

24 A. Probably the MUP or the TO or the HVO, to

25 whomever he belonged to.

Page 13511

1 Q. Is it your testimony, sir, that you don't

2 know to whom -- what entity Mr. Musinovic belonged?

3 A. I was not interested in that.

4 Q. Now, when Mr. Musinovic was not in the camp,

5 was there anyone else who took over his duties?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Was there any other driver in the prison

8 besides you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. And who was that?

11 A. Zlatan Ustalic, Buric. There were several.

12 Q. And Mr. Zlatan was in charge of driving the

13 food; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. And was there any difference between your

16 duties and Mr. Buric's duties as drivers?

17 A. I don't understand.

18 Q. Well --

19 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Excuse me, Your Honours. It

20 should be Buric. I'm sorry, counsel, it's listed as

21 "Boric". It should be "Buric" in the transcript.

22 MS. McHENRY: Once again, it's probably my

23 pronunciation, so I apologise.

24 Q. If I understood you, you were a driver and

25 Mr. Buric was a driver. My question is: Was there any

Page 13512

1 difference in your duties? How was it decided when you

2 would drive and when he would drive and when one of you

3 would do something else?

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: Apologies, Your Honours, the

5 identical error occurred. Again we have "Boric"

6 instead of Buric, B-U-R-I-C.


8 A. I was driving our car of the MUP police.


10 Q. And what car did Mr. Buric drive?

11 A. You should ask him that.

12 Q. Does that mean you don't know, sir? If you

13 don't know an answer to a question, sir, all you have

14 to do is say "I don't know."

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Did Mr. Buric work in the prison the whole

17 time that you were working there?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. Okay. To your knowledge, was there any

20 dispute between you or bad relations between you,

21 between you and Mr. Buric?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Now, I know you stated that Mr. Delic was not

24 a deputy commander, and I know that you stated that he

25 was wounded and spent more or had an injury, and he

Page 13513

1 spent more time sitting than standing. Do you know if

2 Mr. Delic had any duties in the camp at all?

3 A. At that time he didn't, except that he would

4 sometimes keep guard and he would go with the doctors

5 to the hospital, to the doctors who came to the camp,

6 and he would sometimes bring milk to the prisoners.

7 Q. So sometimes --

8 A. And medicine.

9 Q. So sometimes he acted as a guard, sometimes

10 he went to the hospital, and sometimes he brought milk

11 to the prisoners; is that correct? That's what you

12 know about Mr. Delic's duties?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Okay. Now, is it your testimony, sir, that

15 during the entire time you were at Celebici camp --

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: I apologise, Your Honours.

17 There is a mistake, a very important mistake, actually,

18 as far as my client is concerned. The transcript says

19 this is about Delic and it says "Delalic" in the

20 transcript. I would like to ask you that these are

21 corrected because it is very difficult for us to listen

22 to the proceedings and watch the transcript at the same

23 time.


25 Q. Sir, during the time that you were at

Page 13514

1 Celebici, is it your testimony that you never saw any

2 prisoner being mistreated?

3 A. Never.

4 Q. Did you ever hear any screams or sounds of

5 blows?

6 A. Never while I was there.

7 Q. Did you ever see any prisoners with injuries

8 on them?

9 A. Rarely, but only with those who came from the

10 woods before, and before they came to the camp.

11 Q. And how would you know when you saw a

12 prisoner with injuries? How would you know that that's

13 a prisoner who came from the woods?

14 A. If they -- if I was there the day they appear

15 -- came to the camp, it was easy to recognise them.

16 Q. Did you ever hear any reports or rumours that

17 any prisoners were being mistreated in Celebici?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned building number

20 22. What was building -- was building 22 used as an

21 infirmary when you were at the camp?

22 A. It was an empty building.

23 Q. So if I understand you correctly, when you

24 were at Celebici camp, there were no prisoners kept in

25 building 22; is that correct?

Page 13515

1 A. When we came, there was nobody there.

2 Q. And --

3 JUDGE JAN: When you left.

4 MS. McHENRY: Exactly.

5 Q. And when you left, was it the case that

6 prisoners were not in 22 also?

7 A. I don't quite understand the question.

8 JUDGE JAN: It's a very simple question. You

9 said when you went to Celebici -- it's a very simple

10 question. You were asked, did you find any people in

11 this room number 22. You said when you went to the

12 camp, there was none. She wants to find out when you

13 left the camp to go somewhere else, were there any

14 people there in this room number 22?

15 A. Yes, there were. Yes, there were.


17 Q. And was it injured people who were kept in

18 building 22 or you don't know?

19 A. They were not injured. They were sick. What

20 they were sick from, I don't know. Natural diseases.

21 It was an infirmary for them. There were doctors

22 there. Two of their doctors were there and other

23 doctors from Konjic would come if there was any need.

24 Q. Now, besides Mr. Susic and the man who was

25 shot trying to escape, did any other prisoners die

Page 13516

1 during the time you worked in Celebici?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Now, you talked some yesterday in direct

4 about the conditions in Celebici, and I assume, since

5 you testified about it, that you had the opportunity to

6 observe the conditions; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct.

8 Q. Now, you said the prison was not crowded. I

9 mean the barracks were not crowded. Do you know why

10 prisoners were kept in tunnel number 9?

11 A. So that they would not get into touch with

12 other prisoners before they were interrogated.

13 Q. Were prisoners kept in tunnel number 9 the

14 entire time you worked in Celebici?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And how was it you learned that this is the

17 reason the prisoners were kept in tunnel number 9? Who

18 told you that?

19 A. The reason was because they were brought

20 there during the day and at night-time, and they were

21 put there so that they couldn't hide anything before

22 they were interrogated, before the commission would

23 have the results.

24 Q. My question, sir, is how do you know that?

25 Did someone tell you that or did you just make that

Page 13517

1 assumption yourself? And if someone told you, who was

2 it who told you?

3 A. Nobody told me.

4 Q. Now, please describe the conditions in the

5 tunnel, what the conditions were like for the

6 prisoners.

7 A. It was just like any other tunnel. Every

8 prisoner had his own blanket and they were allowed to

9 leave the tunnel. They had food, they had water, they

10 had an outside toilet just behind the facility.

11 Q. So, as far as you are concerned, the

12 conditions in tunnel number 9 were fine?

13 A. Considering the circumstances, yes.

14 Q. Now, prisoners were sometimes placed in

15 manholes, weren't they?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Now, how often would the prisoners in both

18 tunnel number 9 and in the hangar, how often would they

19 be let outside to use the bathroom facilities, and how

20 long would they have when they were allowed to go

21 outside?

22 A. Whenever they wanted, there was a guard at

23 the door. It was important to knock, and then they

24 would go out.

25 Q. So it's your testimony that whenever a

Page 13518

1 prisoner wanted, all they had to do was knock on the

2 door and then they could go use the facilities; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did they ever go out in groups also?

6 Were there regular times that they went out in groups?

7 A. If there was a need, yes. If there wasn't,

8 they didn't.

9 Q. Well, did you ever see prisoners running to

10 use the facilities?

11 A. I don't know. I didn't.

12 Q. Now, what if somebody was sick or injured and

13 couldn't go -- couldn't go out themselves to use the

14 bathroom, what were their facilities then?

15 A. They would be taken outside, carried outside.

16 Q. Okay. And did you see that happen?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Okay. Well, how do you know that that's what

19 happened, if you never saw it, sir? Did someone tell

20 you that's what happened?

21 A. That's what I heard.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you also talked about the water.

23 How did the prisoners get water?

24 A. Whenever they wanted, they could.

25 Q. So they would just knock on the door and any

Page 13519

1 of the 200 or 300 -- let me go back. How many

2 prisoners were there in Celebici, approximately, as

3 best you can estimate?

4 A. I don't know the exact number.

5 Q. Would you agree that it was around 300?

6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear

7 the response. Could the witness please repeat.

8 A. I never counted them.

9 Q. Well, however many there were, whenever the

10 prisoners wanted water, all they had to do is knock on

11 the door, say, "I want water," then they would be

12 allowed outside to get water? Is that your testimony?

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. Inside the hangar, were the prisoners allowed

15 to get up and move around however they liked, or did

16 they have to stay seated?

17 A. Whatever they wanted to do.

18 Q. And were the doors to the hangar usually kept

19 open or closed?

20 A. Closed.

21 Q. Okay. And did you also, when you say the

22 prisoners were allowed to do whatever they wanted, is

23 that something you saw yourself or something you heard?

24 A. I came to visit and I would bring them food

25 from their families, and whenever I came some of them

Page 13520

1 would be standing, some of them would be sitting, just

2 like anybody else.

3 Q. And how many times would you estimate that

4 you yourself went into the hangar?

5 A. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. Did you ever go inside tunnel number 9?

7 A. Only to the entrance door.

8 Q. Now, let's talk about the food. First of

9 all, I assume that you sometimes ate meals outside the

10 prison, like at your girlfriend's; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. Now, who was Sok?

13 A. A small -- a young Albanian who was in -- was

14 in the JNA and then he stayed in the village. He

15 joined us and he would sometimes make us coffee or

16 prepare our meals or lunches.

17 Q. He worked as a cook in the camp; is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes, as an auxiliary cook.

20 Q. And did he cook just for the guards or did he

21 also cook for the prisoners?

22 A. The food was brought from the village -- from

23 the city, and he would just distribute it.

24 Q. When you said "he prepared our meals," you

25 meant that he distributed your meals? Is that your

Page 13521

1 testimony?

2 A. Yes. He would distribute it to our dishes.

3 Q. And it's your testimony that he never

4 actually cooked; is that right?

5 A. Rarely. Very rarely.

6 Q. And on those rare occasions when he cooked

7 something, was that just for the guards or was that for

8 the prisoners?

9 A. I don't know. I ate his food rarely.

10 Q. How often was the food brought to the camp

11 for the prisoners?

12 A. Just like would happen for us.

13 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was how

14 often? Was it every day?

15 A. Every day. Every day.

16 Q. And was it once a day or more than once a

17 day?

18 A. Sometimes it was once a day, both for us and

19 for them, but most of the times it was more than that.

20 Q. And most of the time. Then how many times

21 was it? Twice or more than twice?

22 A. Twice.

23 Q. Now, when the food was brought, did it come

24 in big containers or individual portions?

25 A. Big containers.

Page 13522

1 Q. And please just explain to us how the

2 prisoners would get their food, where they would eat

3 it, who would bring it to them. Did they eat at the

4 same time? Can you just give us an idea about that?

5 A. From every facility two or three inmates

6 would come, they would pour the food into smaller

7 containers, the same way it happened to us, and then

8 they would distribute the food in front of the

9 facilities where they were. They would hand out the

10 plates to the inmates, and then they would later

11 collect it and go back to their facility.

12 Q. And would the prisoners eat all at once or

13 would they eat in shifts?

14 A. In shifts, because there weren't -- there

15 wasn't enough -- there weren't enough plates.

16 Q. Okay. And, approximately, just how many

17 plates were there? I mean, are we talking about five

18 or one hundred?

19 A. Every facility had at least ten plates, and

20 then these ten were distributed each time.

21 Q. Okay. So if I understand you, ten prisoners

22 would eat at one time? Is that correct?

23 A. Yes, in front of one facility.

24 Q. And let's at least talk about the hangar.

25 And is it the case, then, that after ten prisoners

Page 13523

1 would eat, somebody would go all the way back to the

2 reception, the administration building and get more

3 food, or how did that work?

4 A. No. Everybody ate at the same time. Every

5 facility had about ten plates and that's how they ate.

6 Everybody simultaneously.

7 Q. Well, how did -- if you just accept for a

8 minute that there were, let's say, two hundred people

9 in the hangars, how would those two hundred people eat

10 from ten plates?

11 A. There weren't -- there never were two hundred

12 people in one hangar, as far as I know.

13 Q. But it's your testimony that however many

14 people there were in the hangar, all of them would eat

15 at the same time from the same ten containers?

16 A. Every facility had at least ten mess tins, at

17 least, and then they would take turns. They would be

18 washed and then food for the next ten prisoners would

19 be dished out.

20 Q. And would this happen immediately in front of

21 the hangar, or would the prisoners have to go back to

22 the administration building to get the additional food

23 to fill up the containers again?

24 A. Sometimes they would go again and, if there

25 was any food left, they would get it. Nothing was

Page 13524

1 spilt.

2 Q. And would they walk back to the

3 administration building to get the extra food, or how

4 did that work?

5 A. Sometimes they would use the car, sometimes

6 they would walk.

7 Q. Okay. And about how long would this whole

8 procedure take? The food would come in, be

9 distributed, switch on and off. About how long would

10 this take for all the prisoners to be fed?

11 A. I don't know exactly.

12 Q. Would you say it was more than an hour?

13 A. I don't know exactly.

14 Q. Okay. Now, would Mr. Ustalic stay until all

15 the prisoners had finished eating?

16 A. Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn't.

17 It was important to take the food.

18 Q. Now, you stated yesterday that the prisoners

19 got the same portions as the guards. How do you know

20 that those prisoners got the same portions?

21 A. It is true because I ate the same food.

22 Q. My question wasn't whether or not you ate the

23 same food. My question was how much food, the

24 portions. How do you know that the prisoners got the

25 same portions as the guards?

Page 13525

1 A. I know sometimes I was there and I saw them.

2 Q. Okay. How often would you say you were

3 present and would watch the prisoners eating and could

4 see their portions, approximately?

5 A. On several occasions.

6 Q. Now, you talked yesterday about a prisoner

7 who was shot when he was trying to escape. Now, were

8 you present when that prisoner was shot or did someone

9 else tell you about it?

10 A. I was near this place, but I didn't see who

11 was shooting.

12 Q. Okay. Could you just -- I know you showed us

13 yesterday approximately where the prisoner was when he

14 got shot. Can you just please use the same model and

15 show us approximately where you were when the prisoner

16 got shot?

17 A. Right there.

18 Q. Okay. Just let the record reflect the

19 witness is pointing --

20 A. It happened there.

21 Q. The witness is pointing -- I'm sorry, I don't

22 see the number. The number of the little white house?

23 Building B.

24 A. In the grassy area across from building B.

25 Q. And what were you doing at the time that the

Page 13526

1 prisoner was shot? Please sit down, please.

2 A. Thank you. I happened to be outside.

3 Q. So you were just standing there watching; is

4 that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And approximately how long had you been

7 there, one minute, 15 minutes, before the prisoner was

8 actually shot?

9 A. I don't know. I don't know.

10 Q. Now, you said that this happened when a large

11 group of prisoners had been brought in after some

12 combat operations. Could it have been when the

13 prisoners were brought in after the operation in

14 Bradina?

15 A. They were brought, I think, from Gorodznic

16 (Phon), Biljelnik (Phon). I can't remember exactly.

17 Q. You stated there was a large number of them.

18 Were some of them lined up against the wall --

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Okay. Now, is it your testimony that when

21 you were there none of the prisoners were being beaten

22 immediately before the prisoner tried to escape; is

23 that correct?

24 A. I didn't see it.

25 Q. Okay. Did you hear any noises, sounds that

Page 13527

1 would have been consistent with the prisoners being

2 beaten?

3 A. Never.

4 Q. Now, besides you, who else who worked in the

5 camp was present at the time this prisoner was shot?

6 A. Velija Mujo, and I think another Velija

7 Halilovic.

8 Q. Do you remember if Mr. Delic was there?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Now, did you have a weapon at that time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you ever have a weapon when you worked in

13 Celebici?

14 A. Yes, but only when I used my car outside when

15 I went to fulfil some duty.

16 Q. Would the guards have weapons?

17 A. Yes, but not all.

18 Q. Okay. Now, you stated that the person was

19 warned, I believe, two times to stop. Did you hear

20 that yourself?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Who issued the warning?

23 A. Probably the soldiers who were close to him,

24 but it was not the people from our facilities. It was

25 some people from Bosnia, from Foca, I don't know

Page 13528

1 exactly, maybe Miljevina.

2 Q. Now, you indicated that the prisoner was

3 being asked questions. Could you hear the questions

4 being asked?

5 A. Rarely.

6 Q. Now, I'm referring to the time that the

7 prisoner was shot. You stated that he was being asked

8 -- yesterday you stated that he was being asked

9 questions before he escaped. Did you hear the

10 questions?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Now, what happened after the

13 shooting? What happened to the body? Was there a

14 report? Please tell us what happened after the person

15 was killed?

16 A. I don't know. I didn't look at it, and I

17 didn't come close to it.

18 Q. And so it was a matter of no interest to you

19 whatsoever what happened to the body or anything about

20 the killing?

21 A. I don't know. I really do not know.

22 Q. Did you stand around for a few minutes

23 to watch what happened or you weren't interested or

24 just --

25 A. I went into the building immediately.

Page 13529

1 Q. Okay. And why did you go into the building?

2 A. What do I know? I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. Now, have you ever heard of Miroslav

4 Vujicic. Could he have been the person who was shot?

5 A. I don't know. I knew the people of different

6 ethnic backgrounds, not very well in Konjic.

7 Q. Now, you also talked about the murder of

8 Mr. Susic. Was there any investigation into the murder

9 of Mr. Susic?

10 A. I don't know anything about it.

11 Q. Now, were you ever given any instructions

12 about how to behave in the camp or even what you were

13 supposed to do if a prisoner tried to escape?

14 A. We always received orders from the superior

15 command that we shouldn't beat or murder or do any harm

16 to any prisoner, any prisoner, wherever we would go,

17 that was the first thing that we were told.

18 Q. And who from the superior command told you

19 that?

20 A. I could have been told this by Rale Musinovic

21 and I don't know who he was told that by.

22 Q. Did you receive this instruction orally or in

23 writing?

24 A. For the most part orally.

25 Q. Did you ever see anything in writing about

Page 13530

1 the treatment of prisoners?

2 A. Maybe, maybe.

3 Q. Were you ever told anything about your

4 weapon, was your weapon to be kept with the safety on

5 or off?

6 JUDGE JAN: How is that relevant?

7 MS. McHENRY: I believe there has been some

8 testimony about that or that there's going to be with

9 respect to one of the witnesses who may be upcoming, so

10 that's why I am specifically asking that.

11 JUDGE JAN: How long does it take?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE JAN: Microphone not on.

14 MS. McHENRY: If the witness doesn't know, I

15 certainly won't pursue it.

16 Q. Were you ever given any instructions about

17 how your weapon was to be kept with the safety on or

18 off?

19 A. I always had it on.

20 Q. And were you ever given any instructions one

21 way or the other?

22 A. There was no need.

23 Q. Now, during the time you were at the camp,

24 are you aware of any guard ever being disciplined for

25 anything?

Page 13531

1 A. Maybe, I don't recall.

2 Q. Now, in addition to Mrs. Cecez and Mrs.

3 Antic, there were other women in the camp, weren't

4 there?

5 A. Zilic (Phon) and another one or two, I don't

6 know.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you talked about where the

8 women were kept and you said the women could use the

9 bathroom freely. Did the women have to ask the guards'

10 permission to use the bathroom or could they use it

11 even without asking the guards' permission?

12 A. They had to ask permission from the guards.

13 Also because it was locked so that nobody could come to

14 them.

15 Q. Now, when the weather was nice, the guards

16 sometimes were not in the actual reception area, but

17 spent time outside of that; is that correct?

18 A. The most part there was someone there.

19 Q. But sometimes, depending on the weather, the

20 guards would be outside, correct?

21 A. For the most part, they were there.

22 Q. Can I ask that the witness be shown again,

23 Defence Exhibit 27-3. That's the chart that we saw

24 yesterday. Can we have it on the ELMO, please.

25 Now, sir, you indicated yesterday that the

Page 13532

1 one door -- one door was permanently barricaded, the

2 door that led directly from where the women were kept

3 to the main hall; was that correct? And can you just

4 point this out again for the judges, show them the door

5 that was barricaded all the time.

6 A. Yes, even today.

7 Q. I'm sorry, can you just use the one to your

8 right, sir, just because it -- can you just show it on

9 that one. Okay, show the door that was always

10 barricaded. Okay. And so when the women wanted to go

11 to the bathroom or were brought outside to clean, they

12 would go through the guard room and then out through

13 the hallway into the bathroom, correct?

14 A. Correct. That's correct.

15 Q. Now, let me, the window in the guard room

16 that's closest to the main hall, can you point that out

17 for one second. I'm sorry, the one that's closest to

18 the main hall, the other window. I'm sorry, are there

19 three windows there that you see, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you please point to the window that's

22 closest to the main hall. Yes, that window, sir. Now,

23 sir, you would agree with me that you could see Tunnel

24 No. 9 from that window, couldn't you? If you know.

25 A. A guard, yes.

Page 13533

1 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute before you go any

2 further. The women were kept in the room which is

3 marked as "Weapons."

4 MS. McHENRY: That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE JAN: We're more concerned with the

6 window in that room.

7 MS. McHENRY: I believe and I have just

8 reviewed the testimony --

9 JUDGE JAN: They would not be staying long in

10 the guard room on the way to the bathroom.

11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I believe that the

12 testimony will reflect this, but I believe that the

13 women stated that they did sometimes look out of the

14 guard room, especially because the guards were

15 sometimes outside and they were permitted to --

16 JUDGE JAN: All of the guards or some of the

17 guards?

18 MS. McHENRY: That there was nobody in the

19 guard room on occasion.

20 JUDGE JAN: Well, ask him.

21 MS. McHENRY: I have asked him that. He said

22 sometimes.

23 JUDGE JAN: He said sometimes.

24 MS. McHENRY: Right.

25 JUDGE JAN: Maybe there are two guards, one

Page 13534

1 is left behind and the other went out. You haven't

2 clarified that position. Maybe they are taking turns.


4 Q. Sir, do you know whether or not there was

5 always one guard in the guard room or is it sometimes

6 the case that sometimes the guards would be outside?

7 JUDGE JAN: All the guards.


9 Q. All the guards?

10 A. Always one.

11 Q. And how do you know that, sir?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Frankly, these are

13 matters of speculation. None of the guards is before

14 us, so I don't see why you are pressing.

15 MS. McHENRY: That's fine, I'll go forward.

16 Q. Sir, did you ever learn that some of the

17 women had been sexually assaulted while they were in

18 the camp?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You never heard any reports or stories that

21 there had been any sexual mistreatment at all; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, at the time you went with Mr. Delic as

25 his assistant to look for the Antic weapons, was Mr.

Page 13535

1 Delic on crutches at that time?

2 A. I don't recall.

3 Q. Certainly he was able to walk in -- at least

4 he was able to walk?

5 A. Yes, a little bit.

6 Q. Now, you talked about the report that you and

7 Mr. Delic signed regarding the weapons. Who typed this

8 report?

9 A. I believe it was Delic.

10 Q. Okay. Now, sir, I know that it was your

11 first report and you may not have been familiar with

12 sort of techniques about how exactly to prepare a

13 report, but let me ask you, did you think that it was

14 important to be truthful in the report?

15 A. Yes, it was truthful except that we didn't

16 put in a name of the sister of the person who was

17 accused of having had the weapons.

18 Q. So, is it truthful that, and if you want to

19 see this document again, we can get it for you. Was it

20 truthful when you stated, "When we arrived at the spot,

21 Cedo showed us the places where he had been hiding the

22 rifles"?

23 A. Correct, correct.

24 Q. So it was Mr. Antic who showed you where the

25 rifles were, not Mrs. Antic? Is that correct?

Page 13536

1 A. His sister told us that also.

2 Q. So that they both showed you where the same

3 rifle was? Is that your testimony?

4 A. How do you mean the same?

5 Q. Well, in your report, you indicate that Mr.

6 Antic showed you the places where he had been hiding

7 the rifles and you now say that Mr. Antic did show you

8 both places and Mrs. Antic also showed you one place.

9 And so my question is, it's your testimony that both

10 Mrs. Antic and her brother, Cedo Antic, showed you the

11 spot, the same spot where the same rifle was buried; is

12 that correct?

13 A. The places were shown, first Cedo showed the

14 place where his rifle was and then she showed where her

15 rifle was.

16 Q. Well, if that's the case, sir, then would you

17 agree with me that the statement, "When we arrived at

18 the spot, Cedo showed us the places where he had been

19 hiding the rifles." That that's incorrect?

20 A. Yes, that is also correct, both things are

21 correct. What we did is just omit his sister because

22 we believed that it was not necessary to include it in

23 the report. But now I am saying that she was there too

24 because that's how it was.

25 Q. And you're saying that you had two different

Page 13537

1 people show you the same spot where the same rifle was

2 buried; is that correct?

3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object, that's a

4 mischaracterisation of the evidence. He's been pretty

5 clear on that, there's two different rifles.


7 Q. Did Mr. Antic show you where only one rifle

8 was or did he show you where both rifles were?

9 A. We were told where both rifles were, but the

10 sister went to the cherry tree next to the fence to

11 show where that rifle was, the M-48 rifle.

12 Q. Well, let me just try to be very clear. I

13 have just a very simple question. When your report

14 states, "Cedo showed us the places where he had been

15 hiding the rifles." Is that correct or not correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. And there were two rifles and Mr. Cedo showed

18 you were both of them were; is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, you stated that you did not

21 believe it was important to mention Mrs. Antic. Why

22 did you at least think it was not important to mention

23 Mrs. Antic?

24 A. We were making that report for the first

25 time, so that's how I thought it should be done. I

Page 13538

1 don't know.

2 Q. Well, did you think maybe the rifle wasn't

3 hers and that's why it wasn't important to mention

4 her? Just why did you think it was important to

5 mention Mr. Antic and not Mrs. Antic?

6 A. We didn't know until she confessed. There

7 were other -- she had two rifles, we found one and Atia

8 (Phon) found another one. We found this one because

9 she told us where it was. And Atia (Phon) found the

10 other one.

11 Q. Was her report written before or after her

12 "confession"?

13 A. After she confessed, when we brought in the

14 weapons.

15 Q. Now, sir, I assume that you have no idea why

16 another driver who worked at the camp would have stated

17 to this Chamber that the only persons who raped women

18 in the camp were Mr. Delic and yourself. I assume you

19 don't have any idea why someone might have stated

20 that?

21 A. Incorrect.

22 Q. Let me speak for a moment about Mrs. Cecez's

23 interrogation. Now, you stated that you were told by

24 Mr. Rale Musinovic to interrogate Mrs. Cecez; is that

25 correct?

Page 13539

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. And you were supposed to interrogate her

3 about where her husband was; is that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Were you supposed to interrogate her about

6 anything else?

7 A. In Donje Selo and the people there who had

8 the weapons, where did they hide them, who left, where

9 did they go to and so on.

10 Q. Did this interrogation take place soon after

11 Mrs. Cecez had been brought to the camp?

12 A. (No translation).

13 Q. Is it correct that Mrs. Cecez was first kept

14 in the administration building for several days and

15 then moved to the reception building?

16 A. That is incorrect.

17 Q. Please tell us where she was kept the entire

18 time then. Is your testimony that she was always kept

19 in the reception building? Is that correct?

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, I think he

21 pointed to a room within that building and it should be

22 identified on the record.

23 THE WITNESS: While I was there. It was

24 there, because before that, two other women were

25 there. There was Najana (Phon) and another one.

Page 13540


2 Q. Okay. Now, was the military investigation

3 committee working in Celebici the -- well, in the

4 beginning when you first got to the camp or did they

5 come later?

6 A. Not right away. After the reception of the

7 prisoners and so forth.

8 Q. Well, was the commission -- were they working

9 in Celebici at the time that Mrs. Cecez was brought to

10 the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, when you interrogated Mrs. Cecez, was it

13 during the day or during the night?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't understand, was it during

16 the day or the night?

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When was it?

18 THE WITNESS: Daytime.


20 Q. Okay. And where did the interrogation take

21 place?

22 A. In a command building.

23 Q. Okay. And would you be able to, if I showed

24 you a diagram or a model, would you be able to remember

25 what room?

Page 13541

1 JUDGE JAN: You have a smaller model of the

2 administration block of the command building, maybe it

3 could be useful to have it before us. First ask him,

4 does it look like the command room?

5 MS. McHENRY: I will. I just want to go back

6 to my seat.



9 Q. Sir, do you recognise that as a model of the

10 command building? The administration building, I'm

11 sorry.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Now, can you please tell us and I

14 think that they are marked on the inside, can you point

15 and tell us the number or the letter of the room where

16 you interrogated Mrs. Cecez?

17 A. I am not sure, but it was either this or

18 that.

19 Q. Can you just look for me, sir, and are there

20 numbers or notations on the room numbers that you can

21 tell us which of the two rooms?

22 A. Twelve or eleven. I can't recall exactly.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, who else was present in

24 their room at any time during the interrogation?

25 A. Almir Mucic (sic), the policeman.

Page 13542

1 Q. Now, did you write a report after this

2 interrogation?

3 A. I had nothing to write because she didn't

4 confess to anything.

5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honours, in the

6 transcript again there's a notation of "Mr. Mucic" on

7 line 14, page 43, that wasn't the answer.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There should be some

9 care in these transcripts because there have been too

10 many errors.


12 Q. Is it Almir Muhic, sir, who was present

13 during the interrogation? I'm sorry, could you just

14 repeat the name again, there's just some issue in the

15 transcript. Who was the other person --

16 A. Almir Nuhic, Almir Nuhic, A-l-m-i-r

17 N-u-h-i-c, a policeman.

18 JUDGE JAN: I want to ask a question. Who

19 asked you to interrogate Mrs. Cecez?

20 THE WITNESS: My commanding officer, Rale

21 Musinovic.

22 JUDGE JAN: There was already an

23 investigative military commission there who could

24 interrogate her? Why was this task specifically given

25 to you?

Page 13543

1 THE WITNESS: Rale Musinovic.

2 JUDGE JAN: This is not the question.

3 MS. McHENRY: I am going to ask that again.

4 JUDGE JAN: Please do.

5 MS. McHENRY: Sir, let me just ask a couple

6 of preliminary questions.

7 Q. You were aware that Mrs. Cecez was being kept

8 in the camp as a hostage because they wanted her

9 husband, weren't you?

10 A. Because of the husband and because of herself

11 because she was hiding it and she was behaving like

12 everyone else.

13 Q. I'm sorry, just please explain what you mean

14 when you say she was hiding it and she was behaving

15 like everyone else?

16 A. Because the night when we came to Donje Selo,

17 she and her husband did not come out, but she was with

18 them and she shot, she was firing like everyone else.

19 And she didn't -- and she wouldn't have needed to flee

20 from us. Why did she flee and hide?

21 Q. I'm sorry, sir, is it your testimony that

22 Mrs. Cecez was shooting during the attack on Donje

23 Selo?

24 A. It is possible. I did not see it. It is

25 possible.

Page 13544

1 Q. And you would agree with me that there were

2 many, many women who fled when Donje Selo was being

3 attacked.

4 A. Not many. There were women down there,

5 nobody did anything to those who stayed.

6 Q. You would agree with me that there were a

7 number of women besides Mrs. Cecez who fled from Donje

8 Selo?

9 JUDGE JAN: But he didn't arrest her, how

10 would he know why she was arrested. The fact is that

11 she was arrested, but how would he know? That question

12 should be directed to the person who arrested her.


14 Q. Well, now you stated that you gave Mrs. Cecez

15 flowers, was this before or after Mrs. Antic came to

16 the camp?

17 A. Before and after.

18 Q. And did you bring Mrs. Antic flowers too or

19 just Mrs. Cecez?

20 A. Only Mrs. Cecez.

21 Q. Now, had you known Mrs. Cecez before you

22 started working in the camp?

23 A. Yes, she worked in a kiosk in front of the

24 department store, the kiosk selling newspapers and

25 similar things.

Page 13545

1 Q. So you knew each other from before and both

2 of you recognised each; is that correct?

3 A. A little bit, but we knew each other.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

5 now rise and come back at noon.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.

8 (The witness entered court)

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

10 witness he is still under his oath.

11 THE WITNESS: Witness Djacic, may I remind

12 you that you are still under oath.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,

14 Ms. McHenry.

15 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours. I am

16 just about finished, but I want to advise you and the

17 witness that during the break Ms. Residovic informed me

18 with respect to one issue about the food. There were

19 some potentially important interpretation problems.

20 So I am going to go over some of those same questions

21 based on what Ms. Residovic and Mr. Kuzmanovic have

22 informed me. So I will be repeating some of my

23 questions, because, as I understand it, there may be an

24 issue that even affects the meaning of what it said.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

Page 13546


2 Q. Sir, let me just -- I've been asked. Can you

3 please move your chair forward a little bit so the

4 interpreters can hear your voice better. Can you move

5 your chair a little bit forward. Okay.

6 Now, sir, can you just once again explain,

7 when the food came for the prisoners, how was it

8 actually given to the prisoners? And I know I am

9 asking you to repeat some of what you said before.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps you might --

11 A. Every facility had their own mess tins.

12 Zlatan Ustalic, when he would bring the food to

13 Celebici, the young man, Sok, would carry out the mess

14 tins and bring them to a gate where there were three to

15 four women. And the same people -- the people would

16 come from the facilities to take the food, and this

17 food would be taken to the facilities. And ten persons

18 from every facility, depending on how many there were,

19 would come out and eat.

20 The food would come twice a day. And warm

21 food would come twice a day and cooked food would come

22 twice a day, and dry food, uncooked food, would come

23 once a day.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what I wanted

25 to find out was are you asking him how the food is

Page 13547

1 distributed when they arrive?

2 MS. McHENRY: Yes.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this fairly sums

4 it up.


6 Q. Well, sir, when Mr. Ustalic would bring the

7 food, what gate was it that the mess tins -- can you

8 just show us on the chart where it was that the food

9 would be brought and distributed to the three or four

10 people who would come to take the food.

11 A. The guards would carry the food at the gate,

12 since there were three to four women there. And they

13 would use a tray, just like at a hotel, and they would

14 carry whatever food there was.

15 Q. And did all this happen in the area around

16 the administration building?

17 A. The food was distributed close to the

18 administration building.

19 Q. And if I understand you, it would come in

20 large containers, and then there would be trays with

21 ten smaller containers that then would be brought to

22 the hangar; is that correct?

23 A. Every hangar had their own mess tins, and

24 people would come to get these mess tins and the bread,

25 and they would take them to the facility. There were

Page 13548

1 some stools in front of the facilities and the meal

2 would be completed there, and then everything would be

3 returned back to the main building.

4 Q. Well, my question is: After it was -- the

5 food was given -- the food comes and it's sort of

6 initially distributed around the administration

7 building, in that area. Is it the case, then, that

8 these very large mess tins would be brought to hangar

9 number 6, or is it the case that these ten smaller

10 containers would be brought to hangar 6?

11 A. Depending on how many people there were in

12 the hangar. There were -- more people were going if

13 there were more people in the hangar. More people

14 would go to get the food. Sometimes I helped to carry

15 the bread.

16 Q. And then when the food ran out, would the

17 prisoners have to go back to the administration

18 building to refill the containers with more food?

19 A. If there was any food, they could do that.

20 Q. Well, normally would -- would it normally, on

21 an average occasion, would the prisoners have to go

22 back to the administration building to get the

23 containers filled up again, or would it be sufficient

24 just to do it one time?

25 A. If there was a need, they would go back.

Page 13549

1 Q. Let me go forward, sir. Now --

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, since this

3 question was already asked and the witness more than

4 once used the word "mess tin," which is used to carry

5 the food, maybe I should suggest to my colleague to ask

6 the witness what this mess tin is, which was used to

7 carry the food to the facility. Since this again --

8 there is some unclarity around this term, and this is a

9 concrete term for some kind of a container.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think the problem

11 is -- she is using the word manerca (Phon), which, as I

12 understand it, is a great big pot that you would have a

13 lot of food in, where a mess tin is something that an

14 individual soldier would eat out of. It would be a

15 much smaller thing. So what you have would be the

16 difference between a pot with food for a whole bunch of

17 people, that it would be dished out to individual

18 people in smaller containers. I think that's where the

19 confusion is coming from.

20 MS. McHENRY: Let me ask the witness,

21 please.

22 Q. Sir, can you just, even with your hands,

23 approximate the size of the containers that the food

24 would come in when Mr. Ustalic brought it? What kind

25 of size are we talking about?

Page 13550

1 A. Fifty litres.

2 Q. And then when it was brought to the

3 prisoners, was it brought in those 50 litre containers,

4 or was it moved to those 10 smaller containers that

5 were then brought to the hangar?

6 A. Zlatan brought them in the larger containers.

7 Q. And when the food was actually brought from

8 the administration area to the hangar, was it brought

9 in those large 50 litre containers, or was it put in 10

10 smaller containers, and then the 10 smaller containers

11 were brought to the hangar?

12 A. No, not in the smaller ones. Just in the

13 larger ones.

14 Q. So the prisoners would go up to the

15 administration building and get one or more 50 litre

16 containers and then bring it back to the hangar?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you refer to the 10 containers that

19 were available to the hangar, what are those

20 containers?

21 A. Those are plates or dishes or a little bit

22 larger. And we also used them to eat from them. It

23 stayed behind after the JNA on the compound.

24 Q. Thank you. I am moving forward.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me clarify a bit.

Page 13551

1 From the witness's testimony, it appears only

2 representatives of each particular group of detainees

3 go up to receive the food. Am I right? Not everybody

4 goes up?

5 A. Yes, that's right. Depending on who was on

6 duty, and they would take turns. Today, one group of

7 prisoners; tomorrow, another group of prisoners would

8 do the same.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, the important thing

10 is whether, when they take this food, they serve

11 everybody in their group. It means they serve everyone

12 in the group of each of the representatives?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So if it is not

15 sufficient for them the first time, perhaps they come

16 back a second time to serve the other ones who did not

17 have enough at the beginning?

18 A. Mostly they carried as much as was needed the

19 first time, because we knew, considering with respect

20 to the number of people there were in each facility,

21 how much was necessary.


23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.

24 Q. Now, sir, is the reason that you gave

25 Mrs. Cecez flowers because you felt bad about how you

Page 13552

1 treated her?

2 A. God forbid.

3 Q. Well, why did you give Mrs. Cecez flowers,

4 then?

5 A. Because I spent more time there talking,

6 because she asked me to be there, and she talked about

7 all kinds of things about her daughter, how she was in

8 Vojvodina somewhere, things like that. So whatever was

9 nice, she talked to me about. She saw the flowers

10 through the window and she asked me if she could get

11 two or three roses, and I did that a couple of times,

12 and I brought those roses to her.

13 Q. Was there a bed in the room where you

14 interrogated Mrs. Cecez?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You would agree with me that in the rooms

17 used by the military investigation commission there

18 were not beds, wouldn't you?

19 A. Where the commission worked, no.

20 Q. Now, Mrs. Cecez, was supposed to be raped as

21 part of her interrogation, wasn't she?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You've already testified that you were a

24 simple driver with no experience interrogating persons,

25 and that the investigating commission was made up of

Page 13553

1 professionals. Just explain to us, please, what is it

2 that you could do to Mrs. Cecez to make her give

3 information that the investigative commission would not

4 have been able to do better? Why were you chosen?

5 A. I was the closest to my commanding officer,

6 Rale Musinovic, and he told me, "Please, go outside and

7 investigate Grozdana Cecez, where she was, what she

8 did, why she did not surrender this weapon, where her

9 husband was," and so forth.

10 Q. Why didn't the military investigation

11 commission do this, sir, which was made up of

12 professionals?

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object

14 to that. That's speculation on the part of this

15 witness.

16 MS. McHENRY: If you know, sir.

17 A. I don't understand anything now.

18 Q. My question is, if you know, why was a

19 driver, with no experience interrogating people, chosen

20 to investigate Mrs. Cecez, rather than the military

21 investigation commission that was made up of

22 professionals?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is a

24 question for the persons who sent --

25 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I said if he

Page 13554

1 knows. If he doesn't know, he can state that.

2 A. At that point in time there was no

3 commission, when she arrived.

4 Q. I'm sorry, sir, right before the break you

5 stated on several occasions that the military

6 investigation commission was operating at the time

7 Mrs. Cecez was brought in. Are you now changing that

8 testimony?

9 A. The commission wasn't there at the time.

10 Q. So you are saying that they were operating,

11 but they just didn't happen to be in the camp in the

12 daytime when you interrogated her; is that correct?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What is correct?

15 A. That I interrogated her.

16 Q. My question is: You've already stated that

17 the military investigation committee was operating at

18 the time Mrs. Cecez was brought in. You remember

19 saying that?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's get the question

21 you were asking him. Now, you are not equipped to

22 interrogate people, you are not an interrogator, you

23 are not an investigator, and there were such people.

24 Why were you chosen to interrogate Mrs. Cecez? Why?

25 This is the question, if you know why you were chosen

Page 13555

1 as suitable. So if you don't know, you say so.

2 A. I don't know.

3 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank

4 you.

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as you can imagine,

6 I have a little re-examination. May it please the

7 court.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed

9 Re-examined by Mr. Moran

10 Q. Sir, a few questions I would like to ask you

11 that were brought up during Ms. McHenry's

12 cross-examination. And I am going to do it, I think,

13 pretty much in the order in which she did it. The

14 first thing I want to talk to you about, sir, was

15 yesterday she used on several occasions the words

16 "police officer," with the emphasis on the word

17 "officer." Did the words "officer," was that

18 translated to you into Bosnian or did you mean -- or

19 was it translated to you something like policeman,

20 someone whose job it is to be a police person?

21 A. As a policeman.

22 Q. So when you say -- when Ms. McHenry asked you

23 if you were a police officer or if Mr. Delic was a

24 police officer, or if someone else was a police

25 officer, was your response that he was a policeman as

Page 13556

1 opposed to an officer or a leader or that type of

2 thing?

3 A. Yes, as a policeman.

4 Q. Okay. Secondly, sir, there's been some

5 discussion about who was in charge of what in the

6 Celebici barracks at the time you were there. Am I

7 correct, sir, that when your commander wanted you to do

8 something, he would tell you to do it, and that would

9 be the commander of the MUP?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that when the commander of the HVO wanted

12 an HVO member to do something, he would go -- he would

13 give that order to the member of the HVO?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that when the TO was there, if the TO

16 commander wanted a member of the TO to do something,

17 that he would issue that order to the soldier in the

18 TO?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And that -- am I correct that the commander

21 of the TO would not issue orders to a member of the

22 HVO, or the commander of the HVO would not issue an

23 order to a member of the MUP?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Am I correct in my assumption?

Page 13557

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And, sir, when you were in --

3 stationed in Celebici in 1992, you were simply a

4 private soldier; is that correct? Just a soldier?

5 JUDGE JAN: Policeman.

6 A. Yes.


8 Q. Well, lowest ranking -- you had the lowest

9 rank in the MUP?

10 A. Yes, the lowest rank. Yes.

11 Q. Is it the custom -- let me back off just a

12 second. Ms. McHenry kept asking you several times why

13 you were ordered to do things by your commander. Is it

14 the custom in the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina

15 for a commander to explain why he is giving an order to

16 a private soldier, or does he simply just give the

17 order?

18 A. He just gives the order.

19 Q. And he doesn't explain to you why he wants

20 you to do something?

21 A. He does explain.

22 Q. He does explain or he doesn't? He just gives

23 the order?

24 A. Yes, he gives the order.

25 Q. Sir, from your position as a driver, do you

Page 13558

1 know whether there was some meeting that occurred

2 between the commanders of the MUP and the HVO and the

3 TO to decide the overall way things in the camp were

4 going to run, or were you ever privy to any kind of

5 meetings like that?

6 JUDGE JAN: But you are saying that he is a

7 policeman. Would he come in these discussions?

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am asking whether

9 he was privy to the high level command discussions.

10 JUDGE JAN: How could an ordinary policeman

11 at the lowest level be privy in such policy decisions?

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would think he

13 would not be.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, this should not

15 arise from cross-examination.

16 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Let me

17 continue then.

18 Q. One of the things Ms. McHenry asked you about

19 was whether or not -- about weapons. She asked you a

20 couple of things about weapons. And the first thing

21 she asked you was whether you had a weapon while you

22 were assigned in Celebici, and, as I recall, your

23 answer was you only had a weapon when you left to go

24 drive someplace? Is that a correct way of recalling

25 it?

Page 13559

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, when people were not required to have

3 weapons, were there -- were the weapons collected and

4 kept in some kind of an arms room or a storage area?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. And then they would be given to you

7 again when you needed it?

8 A. Yes, when I went to carry out a duty.

9 Q. How about weapons training? Were people

10 given a lot of training in how to use a weapon and how

11 to be safe with a weapon when they were assigned in

12 Celebici?

13 A. Not much. Barely. We had no time.

14 Q. Sir, you are still a non-commissioned officer

15 in the Bosnian Army, in the Federation Army. Are

16 soldiers now given more training in the use and safety

17 of weapons?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 JUDGE JAN: Mr. Moran, he must have done

20 service in the JNA, in the compulsory service.


22 Q. Did you do your compulsory service?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE JAN: So why ask these questions?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What are you driving

Page 13560

1 at?

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, what I am driving at

3 is there were people assigned to Celebici who had not

4 done their compulsory service. That was my next

5 question.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The situation was that

7 anybody could have been to that place --

8 MR. MORAN: That's correct, Your Honour.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I want you to focus on a man named

11 Vico (Phon) Buric. Mr. Buric was another driver in the

12 camp; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, Buric.

14 Q. Did you ever hear Ms. Cecez accuse Mr. Buric

15 of raping her?

16 A. Never, because she would have told me. We

17 met frequently.

18 Q. Did you ever hear him brag about raping her?

19 A. Never.

20 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, if we could show

21 the witness the model -- the larger model of the guard

22 house. It's model A. Yes, that one. Just pop the top

23 off of it.

24 Q. Sir, you might have to stand so the judges

25 can see it and just point to the various rooms in

Page 13561

1 there, but I think this may make it a little easier to

2 visualise where everyone was.

3 JUDGE JAN: We have already got a description

4 of the guard room.

5 MR. MORAN: All right, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE JAN: You had it on the ELMO yesterday.

7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I just thought

8 it might be easier for the Trial Chamber if they

9 actually saw the model with the walls there and where

10 the doors -- can physically see the doors.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Depends on what you want

12 to clarify from his testimony.

13 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I just wanted to

14 clarify it in such a way so the Trial Chamber could see

15 it more easily. If the Trial Chamber feels it can

16 visualise where everything was sufficiently off a paper

17 plan as opposed to a three-dimensional model, that's

18 fine with me and I'll go onto something else.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It depends on what you

20 find still confusing from cross-examination, from his

21 answers, because I didn't see any confusion there.

22 MR. MORAN: Okay. The only confusion I would

23 see would be when the -- if the women were to look out

24 of the door between the room where they were held and

25 the guard room --

Page 13562

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What did you see?


3 Q. Yes. Could they see the entrance to tunnel

4 9?

5 JUDGE JAN: From the guard room.


7 Q. From the room where the guards were?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And when they were -- could they look out

10 through that door at all and see --

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. Now, if they were to go into the next

13 room over, which we have called the main hall, or into

14 the guard room itself, excuse me, could they look out

15 that side window in the guard room and see tunnel 9, or

16 was there a pillar that was in the way?

17 MS. McHENRY: This has been asked and

18 answered.

19 THE WITNESS: No, there was a guard there.

20 MS. McHENRY: This has been asked and

21 answered and Defence counsel is leading the witness.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There was no ambiguity

23 to his answers at that time.

24 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Then one last

25 thing and you can sit down. One last thing to clear

Page 13563

1 up.

2 Q. There was a man named Rale in the camp; is

3 that correct, R-a-l-e?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE JAN: There's a lot of Rale's.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. But there was

7 some confusion in the transcript yesterday between Rale

8 and Role. And he is R-o-l-e.

9 JUDGE JAN: It seems to be a very common

10 name.

11 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think so. I

12 am just trying to just show that he's not Rale, that he

13 is R-o-l-e. That they're and two different people.

14 And there was some confusion yesterday in the

15 transcript over that. It was pointed out to me by,

16 again people who speak Bosnian.

17 Is it true that you're Role and Rale is

18 somebody else?

19 A. Yes.

20 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I have

21 no further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think this is the end

23 of your examination-in-chief.

24 MR. MORAN: It's just been pointed out to me

25 that the transcript, the current transcript we've just

Page 13564

1 had is backwards, where we have he's Rale, R-a-l-e and

2 that R-o-l-e is someone else when it's just the

3 opposite. So we're going to have -- that confusion is

4 still there.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, thank you very

6 much for pointing it out. Thank you very much for your

7 assistance. This is the end of your examination,

8 you're discharged.

9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, we will call Ms.

12 Klaric, custodian of records.


14 (The witness entered court)

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Swear the witness.

16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

17 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

18 truth.

19 JUDGE JAN: In my country, a witness who is

20 merely to produce documents is never sworn in.

21 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, that is all she has

22 to do. And, in my country, everybody is sworn in. So

23 it's just a difference in tradition, I believe. I

24 think --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What I understand, she's

Page 13565

1 not usually cross-examined, nothing, just turn in the

2 documents.

3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I think we will

4 need about 10 minutes to explain how these documents

5 are prepared and what they are. And then I have talked

6 to the Prosecution we can just --

7 JUDGE JAN: She's not merely to produce

8 documents then, she's rightly sworn in.

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, Thank you.

10 Ma'am, you can be seated.


12 Cross-examined by Mr. Moran:

13 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Klaric.

14 A. Good afternoon.

15 Q. So that the record is clear, will you please

16 state your full name for the record?

17 A. Amira Klaric, M-a-r-a (sic), K-l-a-r-i-c.

18 Q. And how are you employed, ma'am?

19 A. I am employed in the Konjic municipality as

20 registrar of marriages.

21 Q. Well, you maintain other things besides just

22 marriage records, do you not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You maintain what? Both birth and -- birth

25 records, marriage records, citizenship records and

Page 13566

1 death records?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And let me chat with you for just a second

4 about -- physically about how these records are kept,

5 the original records. Are those records kept in large

6 volumes of books where there would be a certificate for

7 your birth certificate, for instance?

8 A. These are records and since there was

9 recently a war, we just keep them in separate

10 cupboards. We used to keep them differently, but now

11 in the war, this has been destroyed so this is the only

12 thing we have.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly let her tell the

14 Trial Chamber what she does, how she keeps the records,

15 the authenticity.


17 Q. Yes, ma'am, you heard Judge Karibi-Whyte's

18 statement, can you tell him, please, how the records

19 are kept.

20 A. We keep all the records in our office in

21 books. We have registries of birth, of deaths, of

22 citizenship, and they're all kept in a single space,

23 single room.

24 Q. And, ma'am, if I wanted a birth certificate,

25 or if you wanted your birth certificate, a copy of it,

Page 13567

1 or your marriage certificate or your citizenship

2 certificate, how physically would that be prepared?

3 How would you get a birth certificate from your

4 office?

5 A. Every person born in Konjic and registered in

6 our records can receive a copy on the basis of the

7 information dated that it provides us, which includes

8 the first name, last name, the father's name, date of

9 birth and place of birth.

10 Q. And, ma'am, when someone wants a birth

11 certificate, just as an example, would you make a

12 photographic copy of that birth certificate or is there

13 a form where you type in the information off the

14 original record, copy the information from the original

15 record and then stamp it to certify it that it is

16 correct?

17 A. There are particular forms for that.

18 Q. And did you prepare at Mr. Karabdic's

19 request, a large number of these forms for us and for

20 the Trial Chamber?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Your Honour, if we could show her -- let me

23 just pick one relatively at random, Rajko Draganic,

24 which would be D-37/3. And D-37-1/3 and D-37-2/3.

25 And, Your Honours, these are, I picked Mr. Draganic

Page 13568

1 relatively at random because it has a birth a marriage

2 and a citizenship certificate in that group.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: As the proceedings

4 unfold, we will see exactly why these records are

5 here?

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: But I really don't

8 understand their relevance.

9 MR. MORAN: For the relevance of the records

10 it is this: Of course Article 4 of the Fourth Geneva

11 Convention talks about a person's nationality and the

12 Prosecutor has taken the position in various documents

13 and in various oral arguments that there is some

14 question about whether or not there is a legitimate

15 connection between some of the people who were detained

16 in the Celebici prison and the Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina to whether or not they were

18 citizens. And we're bringing you these documents to

19 show you that they were born there. Those that were

20 married, were married there. And that according to the

21 records of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, they are

22 citizens of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And

23 that is the sole reason that these records are being

24 brought to the Trial Chamber, to remove any doubt that

25 these people had a connection to the Republic. That

Page 13569

1 they were citizens.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's fine.


4 Q. Ma'am, just picking Mr. Draganic, again at

5 random. If we could have the ELMO and just show it on

6 the ELMO. Or, we can distribute copies to the Trial

7 Chamber, whichever is easier.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have you provided the

9 Prosecution with all these?

10 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, they have been

11 provided with a copy of an identical volume to what you

12 have. In fact, theirs was pulled at random out of the

13 group. It's exactly what you have been provided with.

14 Q. Okay, ma'am, if you look over on your right

15 shoulder, you'll see one of these certificates. What

16 is that?

17 A. This document is a birth certificate for

18 Rajko Draganic.

19 Q. Judge, we're not getting it on the ELMO. For

20 some reason it's not showing up on the computer

21 monitors, apparently. There we go, there we go. It's

22 here now. And below it is there another certificate, a

23 marriage certificate? If you lift that one up, it may

24 be below it. And what is that document, ma'am?

25 A. This is -- this a marriage certificate for

Page 13570

1 Mr. Rajko Draganic and his wife, Kalim Delava (Phon).

2 Q. And below that there's another document and

3 can you tell the Trial Chamber what that document is?

4 A. This certificate of citizenship for Rajko

5 Draganic.

6 Q. And, ma'am, let's talk about the citizenship

7 certificates for just a second. If a person gives up

8 his citizenship in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 can he get one of these citizenship certificates?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And how does one go about giving up his

12 citizenship in the Republic?

13 A. The person who renounces the citizenship of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina through the Ministry of Justice will

15 file a request to be struck from the citizenship

16 registry and we receive an official certificate from or

17 decision from the ministry, whereby in the records of

18 citizenship and birth, this person's name be struck.

19 Q. And do you physically make any entries on

20 your records at the Municipality of Konjic to show

21 that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What do you do?

24 A. We make an entry into the citizenship record

25 that pursuant to decision of the ministry, number and

Page 13571

1 date are then enclosed or entered. The person has been

2 struck from the record of citizenship of the Republic

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it is stated that it had

4 accepted citizenship of another country.

5 Q. And, ma'am, after that is done, can a person

6 get one of these citizenship certificates like we have

7 on the screen right now?

8 A. No, they cannot, no.

9 Q. Now, ma'am, all of these, this large number

10 of records that we have here, all of those were

11 prepared either by you or at your direction; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And they were prepared based on information

15 in the original records that are the official records

16 of the Konjic municipality?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And, ma'am, are you familiar with these

19 records as a group, these ones that we have here?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do they all show that the person whose

22 name is attached to a certificate was a citizen of the

23 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in May, June, July,

24 August of 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13572

1 Q. Your Honour, I would move to admit, and

2 there's a large number and I'll just go from the top of

3 these, the group. It's D-29/3 through D-101/3. And

4 then in each of those has some subparts. And I would

5 move to introduce both of them. They follow all of the

6 documents. So, for instance, on D-29/3, there's a

7 D-29-1/3. I move to introduce that one. And just the

8 entire list. And the list of documents I am

9 introducing is in the record as D-28/3.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any objections

11 to it?

12 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, we told Mr.

13 Moran before we would not be objecting and that he did

14 not have to go through them document by document

15 either.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we'll accept the

17 list as representing the contents of --

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, so that the record

19 is clear then, I also move to introduce D-28/3, which

20 is the list.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It should have been

22 better to introduce it by the list and then accept the

23 documents as a whole. It's admitted.

24 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, at this point,

25 I pass the witness.

Page 13573

1 JUDGE JAN: I am not clear about one thing.

2 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not

3 activated)

4 JUDGE JAN: Marriages that would have been

5 prior to 1992 when Bosnia's agreement did not exist as

6 an independent state.

7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE JAN: They've both been shown here as

9 citizens of the Republic.

10 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. The reason

11 that I am introducing them this way is that the

12 Prosecutor is cited in a couple of documents, the

13 Notabalm (Phon) case from the ICJ, which talks about

14 connections for purposes of nationality. There has to

15 be reasonable connections. And I don't want --

16 JUDGE JAN: Obviously, obviously when these

17 certificates were prepared, the persons to whom these

18 certificates relate had not declared themselves to be

19 citizens of that state. It's only through legal

20 interpretation whether we have to decide whether they

21 are to be treated as citizens or not. The certificates

22 show that they're citizens of the state, but they

23 relate to events which took place much before the

24 independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina came into

25 existence.

Page 13574

1 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Well, it's

2 done for two reasons. One is based on the Notabalm

3 (Phon) case, which says there are no significant

4 contacts between Mr. Notabalm and Liechtenstein (Phon)

5 and so he is not to be treated as a --

6 JUDGE JAN: I just wanted to point this out.

7 MR. MORAN: Yes, your honour. And these were

8 introduced to show that they were born there, they were

9 married there.

10 JUDGE JAN: These events took place prior to

11 1992, the marriages.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, you will now be

13 following the succession rule.

14 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. And the

15 citizenship certificates were introduced to show that

16 as far as the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina is

17 concerned, these people right to this day --

18 JUDGE JAN: That's right.

19 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your

20 Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

22 Q. Your Honours, I have several questions of

23 this witness. Good afternoon, Mrs. Klaric.

24 A. Good afternoon.

25 Q. I am Edina Residovic and I am Defence counsel

Page 13575

1 for Mr. Zejnil Delalic. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that

2 we briefly saw each other in The Hague?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it also true, Ms. Klaric, that up until

5 that time we had never met?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that last year in

8 October at the request of mine, as in my professional

9 capacity, you issued several citizenship certificates?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Ms. Klaric, in order to clarify this point

12 for the Trial Chamber, could you agree with me if I

13 said that the citizenship records, as well as other

14 records which you are in charge of, are public records

15 and available to all citizenship who have any legal

16 interest in them?

17 A. Yes, they are available to all citizens.

18 Q. Ms. Klaric, is it usual practice in our

19 country that attorneys, when pursuing the interest of

20 their clients, that the attorneys also refer to the

21 record keepers in order to obtain certain documents?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Ms. Klaric, is it also usual practice that

24 you issue such, the documents for a certain

25 administrative fee?

Page 13576

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. May the witness now please be shown five

3 documents. They are marked in the Exhibit D-136,

4 D-37/1, D-37/2, /3 and /4, which is part of the expert

5 witness report that is the history, five pages, 537,

6 539, 541 and 543 and 545.

7 JUDGE JAN: What are these documents?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Their citizenship

9 certificates of certain witnesses called by the

10 Prosecution in these proceedings and the expert witness

11 for history included them in his submission at the

12 request of the Defence.

13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: I will. When the witness

15 reviews this document, I will ask her about him. I

16 believe that they were because we received these

17 documents from our colleague today. And I was not able

18 to review them up until now. I have these documents in

19 front of me. She may just be able to review them very

20 quickly and answer the question that you just posed

21 right away. Maybe it would be the best if the witness

22 just quickly reviewed the documents. Or, in order to

23 spare your searching for them, may I just ask the

24 witness.

25 Q. Ms. Klaric, in the documents which you have

Page 13577

1 just authenticated as having compiled yourself, is

2 there also a certificate of Svetozara Gligorevic, born

3 1915, Bradina, is it included there?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's there, Gligorevic,

6 Svetozara --


8 Q. Simply asked, Ms. Klaric, all five documents

9 which you issued at the request of the attorney, Edina

10 Residovic, are also included among the documents which

11 you have just testified about when asked by my

12 colleague, Mr. Tom Moran?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. There will be no need to ask you

15 individually about each one of these documents.

16 Ms. Klaric, is it true that you, as one of

17 the officials of the Konjic Municipality, know that the

18 Defence of Mr. Zejnil Delalic asked you to help prepare

19 another official document of the municipality?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Ms. Klaric, did you receive an order from

22 your -- the chief to confirm whether this document

23 existed in the files at the municipality?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Ms. Klaric, did you confirm that the Konjic

Page 13578

1 Municipality on the 2nd of July, 1996, at the request

2 of the attorney, Edina Residovic, issued a certificate

3 on the -- confirming that Zejnil Delalic was never

4 elected or appointed to any official duty in any of the

5 municipal bodies?

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think we have to break

7 now and come back at 2.30.

8 JUDGE JAN: Is the statement of Ms. Residovic

9 sufficient on that basis for that purpose? How would

10 she know?

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Take a break here.

12 JUDGE JAN: Your election to anybody and

13 their birth certificate or marriage certificate or

14 death certificate or anywhere else, how would she

15 know?











Page 13579

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.02 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

3 (The witness entered court)

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly remind the

5 witness she is still under oath.

6 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, madam, you are

7 still under oath.

8 A. Yes, I know. Thank you.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Proceed, Ms. Residovic.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your

11 Honours.

12 Q. Ms. Klaric, before the recess The Honourable

13 Tribunal has warned us about an issue that I would like

14 to discuss with you. Namely, I have two documents that

15 I would like to show you, but before that we must

16 determine whether you are the person that can do that.

17 And, therefore, I would like to ask you, Ms. Klaric, is

18 your department of the registry within the municipality

19 also responsible for housing and urban development?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does, within your department -- is there also

22 within your department an archive of documents which is

23 issued by the secretariat?

24 A. Yes, there is an archive within the same

25 secretariat.

Page 13580

1 Q. Are you, Ms. Klaric, also authorised to look

2 into and command -- and look into and work in this

3 archive with -- under the authority given to you by

4 your boss?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it true, Ms. Klaric, that today you gave

7 to me a certificate that -- whose original you have

8 with you, which was signed by the secretary, Nermin

9 Niksic, by which you are authorised to confirm

10 documents which were issued by your municipality and

11 can be found in this archive within your secretariat?

12 A. Yes, I gave this authorisation to you, which

13 was given to me by my secretary, Nermin Niksic.

14 Q. And another question, Ms. Klaric, with regard

15 to the request by the Defence of Mr. Delalic to confirm

16 the authenticity of a document, look into the archive

17 previously before you came to this court.

18 A. Yes, I did look into the archive with respect

19 to this document.

20 Q. I would like now to show to this document --

21 to show to this witness the document 145, annex 1/ --

22 annex 5/1. This is on page 975 in Volume 3 of the

23 expert witness. So that others could follow, I also

24 have a copy for the Tribunal and the Prosecution both

25 in the Bosnian and in the English languages.

Page 13581

1 If you could please, Ms. Klaric, look at this

2 document. Could you please tell us if this is the

3 document that you personally saw in the archives of

4 your secretariat in the Municipality of Konjic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, I would like to have another document

7 shown to this witness, and I would like to determine

8 which document this is, and with this I will finish the

9 cross-examination of this witness. I have enough

10 copies of this document, both for the Trial Chamber and

11 for the Prosecution and for the witness.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Defence document D100-88/1.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, this document a

14 certain time ago was given to the Defence of

15 Mr. Delalic, without the Defence asking for it, by the

16 assembly of the municipality, and therefore we ask for

17 the authentication of this document.

18 And therefore I ask this question, please,

19 Ms. Klaric, this document that you have in front of you

20 right now, is this document also from the archives of

21 the Municipality of Konjic in your secretariat, and did

22 you personally -- did you personally see that this

23 document exists?

24 A. This document, just like the previous

25 document, which was issued by the Assembly of the

Page 13582

1 Municipality of Konjic, exists and can be found in our

2 archives

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Considering the authenticity

4 and the relevance of this document, Your Honours, I

5 suggest that these documents are moved as evidence of

6 the Defence.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any observation by the

8 Prosecution?

9 MS. McHENRY: Well, there is no objection.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you very much, Your

11 Honours.

12 I have finished with the examination of this

13 witness. Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The document is

15 admitted. Any other examination?

16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, Defence of

17 Mr. Mucic has no questions. Thank you.

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Defence of

19 Mr. Landzo has no questions either. Thank you.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed,

21 Ms. McHenry

22 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry

23 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am, my name is Teresa

24 McHenry, and I just have a short number of questions

25 for you. Now, ma'am, with respect to these documents

Page 13583

1 that were just admitted, you are aware, aren't you,

2 that the second document was issued to clarify the

3 first document indicating that Mr. Delalic was not

4 elected to the Konjic Municipal Assembly? Are you

5 aware of that?

6 A. Yes, I am.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, ma'am, what was your job in

8 1992?

9 A. I worked as a registrar.

10 Q. Okay. And I assume that you are not a

11 lawyer?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And I assume that you don't know about the

14 various changes in the citizenship law of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina since 1992, and you don't know about

16 the provisions for rights of option in that law? Is

17 that correct, that you don't know anything about those

18 things, because if so, I won't ask you any more

19 questions about that.

20 JUDGE JAN: That's the bait?

21 MS. McHENRY: Just by way of explanation.

22 Q. Ma'am, do you know anything about the changes

23 in citizenship law in 1992?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I'm not sure this

25 witness is claiming any knowledge of such things. It's

Page 13584

1 only to cover registration.

2 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I don't -- I am

3 not trying to bait her. I assume that she doesn't know

4 either, in which case she will say that and I won't ask

5 any more questions. I just wanted to clarify that.

6 JUDGE JAN: Don't take the bait seriously.

7 A. No.


9 Q. Now, before the war in the independence of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, persons were considered Yugoslav

11 citizens and they had Yugoslav passports, rather than

12 Bosnian passports, correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, going back to 1992. Were you aware that

15 there were Serbs in Konjic who wanted to remain

16 citizens of Yugoslavia and who did not want to be part

17 of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object. This is

19 pretty irrelevant.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: She is not making any

21 claims as to having any authority or knowledge about

22 citizenship. These are persons registered as such.

23 That's all she claims to know.

24 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, but I am

25 allowed to ask her if she knows about a few other

Page 13585

1 things. If she doesn't know anything, I won't press

2 the matter.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the point, when

4 there is no such claim? She's not even being put

5 forward for that.

6 MS. McHENRY: But I may want to put her

7 forward for this, if she answers.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You shouldn't put her

9 forward for things she is not making any claims of --

10 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if she says she

11 has no information, I won't ask any more questions.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The information is all

13 that is contained in the registration. That's all she

14 did. And these are persons who registered them.

15 That's all. Not whether they are validly registered or

16 they could registered. It has nothing to do with that.


18 Q. Ma'am, you would agree with me that when the

19 war started in April of 1992, the Ministry of Justice

20 and the judicial authorities were not functioning in

21 Konjic, were they?

22 A. Could you please repeat your question?

23 MR. MORAN: I am going to object to that

24 because there is no Ministry of Justice in Konjic, as

25 far as I know. That would be a national ministry, not

Page 13586

1 a municipality ministry.


3 Q. Ma'am, would you agree with me that when the

4 war started in April of 1992, the judicial authorities

5 and the branches of the Ministry of Justice in Konjic

6 were not functioning, were they?

7 A. Well, not the first day, because the building

8 of the trial court was shelled.

9 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that for a large

10 number of persons for whom you've issued certificates,

11 that those persons have left for other countries and,

12 in fact, are now citizens of other countries?

13 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. That

14 assumes facts not in evidence. And if Ms. McHenry

15 would like to testify about that, I would ask that she

16 be sworn and I have a right to cross her.

17 JUDGE JAN: She doesn't know this person

18 personally. How does she know?


20 Q. Ma'am, how long have you lived in Konjic?

21 A. Since I was born.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) If a

23 witness is submitted just for producing documents, you

24 don't ask questions about this.

25 JUDGE JAN: She's done that on the basis of

Page 13587

1 the record available, not on the basis of her personal

2 knowledge.

3 MS. McHENRY: Well, I am allowed to ask her

4 questions about --

5 JUDGE JAN: You are certainly allowed to ask

6 her, does she know this person, and all she can say is

7 whether they are still there or whether they have gone

8 to some other place.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on)

10 It should be related to the witnesses called. Don't

11 just ask questions merely because a witness is before

12 the Trial Chamber. It would not be related to what she

13 has come here to say.

14 MS. McHENRY: I am trying to explore whether

15 or not she believes her records are accurate, and I

16 believe that I am allowed --

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Then go straight to

18 that.

19 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

20 Q. Well, ma'am, do you know any persons for whom

21 you've issued certificates? Do you know any of the

22 persons?

23 JUDGE JAN: Personally.

24 A. No.


Page 13588

1 Q. Okay. Now, ma'am, were any of the records of

2 the municipality destroyed in the war?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Okay. And how about the War Presidency

5 records, where are they?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. But if other officials from the Konjic

8 municipality have reported that records were destroyed,

9 that would be contrary to your understanding, correct?

10 JUDGE JAN: She is talking only about her own

11 records. She is not talking about the records of the

12 War Presidency or the TO or any other organisation

13 there.


15 Q. Were you part of the secretariat, ma'am?

16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not

17 hear the response. Could the witness please repeat the

18 response.

19 Q. Could you just repeat your answer, ma'am.

20 Maybe, could you move your chair forward so maybe you

21 are speaking closer to the microphone.

22 Okay. You are part of the secretariat; is

23 that right, ma'am?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what kind of records does the secretariat

Page 13589

1 keep, in addition to birth, death and marriage

2 certificates?

3 A. The secretariat keeps the complete archive

4 and it has authority over it.

5 Q. And when you say the complete archives, do

6 you mean the complete archives for the Municipality of

7 Konjic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And would the secretariat have responsibility

10 for keeping records of the War Presidency that existed

11 in 1992?

12 A. There was war at the time and many things

13 have been changed.

14 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, I didn't understand that.

15 Are you saying that some records have been destroyed

16 because there was war?

17 A. No, that is not correct.

18 Q. Well, do you know whether or not the

19 secretariat, as keeper of the records for the

20 municipality, would have custody of the records of the

21 War Presidency?

22 A. I don't know that.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you keep records

25 of the War Presidency, whatever the proceedings, what

Page 13590

1 has happened during the war and after it? Do you keep

2 records of that?

3 A. Well, I guess they might be in the archives,

4 but I didn't have a look.


6 Q. Okay. Are you aware of whether or not anyone

7 on behalf of the International Tribunal, including the

8 Office of the Prosecution or the Office of the Defence,

9 has asked for records from the War Presidency?

10 A. I don't know.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you. May I ask that the

12 witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 186.

13 JUDGE JAN: What is that document?

14 MS. McHENRY: It is a death certificate

15 signed by this witness.

16 Q. Ma'am, is it correct that this is a death

17 certificate for Simo Jovanovic signed by you?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 MS. McHENRY: And I would ask the Prosecution

20 Exhibit 186 be admitted into evidence.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Wasn't it an exhibit at

22 all?

23 MS. McMURREY: I am going to object to the

24 admission of this document into evidence. If I

25 remember correctly, and I have seen it, it was created

Page 13591

1 some two or three years after the alleged death of

2 Mr. Jovanovic. So I don't believe that this could

3 certify one way or the other if it states a cause of

4 death or whatever, because it was proposed by --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.

6 Yes. She says it was signed by her and it's

7 admissible.

8 MS. McHENRY: It's admissible for the proof

9 of his death or for the contents of what it contains?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, you can argue that

11 later. Thank you.


13 Q. And, ma'am, you are aware that this death

14 certificate was issued after a judicial inquiry into --

15 initiated by his family to establish Mr. Jovanovic's

16 death; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And this was necessary because no death

19 certificates were issued at the time for any of the

20 persons who died in Celebici; is that correct?

21 A. At that time for many persons in our

22 municipality no death certificates were issued.

23 Q. Now, ma'am, are you also aware that in 1997 a

24 member of the secretariat, and I believe your staff,

25 issued an official document with false information?

Page 13592

1 A. No, I don't know.

2 Q. And so you are not -- you are not aware that

3 on the 13th of January, 1997, the register, an

4 administrator for your department, Public Housing

5 Affairs and General Management of the Municipality of

6 Konjic, issued a certificate which had incorrect

7 information?

8 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour. It

9 assumes facts not in evidence. If Mrs. McHenry wishes

10 to testify about that, I ask that she be sworn and

11 subject to cross.

12 JUDGE JAN: She says she doesn't know.

13 That's what she's said. She's answered that question.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution was

15 merely trying to find out what she knows. She is not

16 leading evidence.

17 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness just

18 be shown -- hold on. Yes, may I ask that the witness

19 be shown this document. And I am not going to have it

20 introduced. I just want to know -- I certainly would

21 like it marked.

22 JUDGE JAN: What is this document?

23 MS. McHENRY: It's a document, a certified

24 document from the -- her department about a particular

25 death and certain records that were kept. But I am not

Page 13593

1 putting it forward for the truth of the matter

2 asserted, because the Prosecution, I believe, the

3 municipality have agreed it's not accurate.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution document 254.


6 Q. Ma'am, do you recognise whose signature that

7 is?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. And whose signature is that?

10 A. It is a signature of the clerk who works on

11 authorisations.

12 Q. What is that person's name?

13 A. Idriz Rosic.

14 Q. Is he a member of the same secretariat that

15 you worked for?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay. Now, that document has reference to

18 certain records. Are you aware that those records do

19 not and have never existed? I'm sorry, did you hear

20 me, ma'am?

21 A. There is no translation into Bosnian.

22 Q. Can you hear me now?

23 A. I don't know what document this is about.

24 Q. Okay. Well, the document refers to certain

25 records. Can you look at the document and maybe -- may

Page 13594

1 I ask that the English be put on -- no, that's all

2 right. Hold on.

3 Ma'am, that document refers to certain

4 records about persons killed; is that correct?

5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, could we see a copy

6 and maybe the Trial Chamber would like to see copies of

7 this one too.

8 MS. McHENRY: May I ask that the English be

9 put on the ELMO, maybe with the usher's assistance.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: We would also like to see the

11 Bosnian version, if we may.

12 MS. McHENRY: I don't know if both can be put

13 on the ELMO.

14 Q. Ma'am, this authentication made, do you see

15 that it refers to the death of a particular person and

16 refers to records on the killed members of the

17 aggressors armies and marked burial places?

18 A. I don't know.

19 Q. And so you couldn't tell me whether or not

20 such records -- could you agree with me that such

21 records do not exist in the Municipality of Konjic?

22 A. I cannot agree with you.

23 MS. McHENRY: Okay, no further questions.

24 Thank you.

25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have about a half

Page 13595

1 a dozen questions on re-examination. With the Court's

2 permission --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How do a dozen questions

4 arise?

5 MR. MORAN: About a half a dozen, Your

6 Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, how do they come

8 from? They must arise from cross-examination.

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, they're

10 directly related to cross-examination.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's know how they

12 came about.


14 Q. Ma'am, Ms. McHenry asked you during her

15 cross-examination about Yugoslav citizenship prior to

16 1992; do you remember that question?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Prior to 1992, people were also citizens of

19 one of the constituent republics of the Socialist

20 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, weren't they?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And would also be a citizen of the Republic

23 of Bosnia-Herzegovina or the Republic of Croatia or

24 Serbia or whichever?

25 A. Yes, in addition to the Yugoslav, there was a

Page 13596

1 Republican citizenship too.

2 Q. And you had to have both of them to be a

3 citizen of Yugoslavia? Let me rephrase that a little

4 better. You had to be a citizen of republic to be a

5 citizen of Yugoslavia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you had to be a citizen of Yugoslavia to

8 be a citizen of a republic. Also, ma'am --

9 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute, when you talk

10 about citizen of a republic, are you talking about

11 really citizenship or residence? Inhabitants?

12 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, actually the

13 Bosnian law says "citizenship". And I know from my own

14 personal experience that there is a citizenship in a

15 state. And all of that is related to residency. It's

16 not necessarily where you live.

17 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I

18 specifically, since she didn't -- she wasn't a lawyer,

19 I didn't ask her about the definition of citizenship

20 and I think Mr. Moran would agree that the citizenship

21 of republic is not citizenship as it is normally used

22 in international law.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: There are no answers to

24 any of those questions which would attack her

25 credibility whatsoever. I don't see why you are

Page 13597

1 pushing --

2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going on to

3 another subject now.

4 Q. Do you remember when Ms. McHenry asked you

5 about records being destroyed during the war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The only records you're responsible for are

8 birth, death, marriage, citizenship records; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Only those records.

11 Q. And none of those records were destroyed?

12 A. No, they were not.

13 Q. And if I wanted to know about records from

14 the war presidency, I would go to somebody else?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Ma'am, on Prosecution Exhibit 186, which is a

17 death certificate on Simo Aignovic, did I understand

18 you correctly that that death certificate was issued

19 following a judicial inquiry into his death?

20 A. I don't know when the inquiry took place.

21 Q. But there was a judicial inquiry, if you

22 know?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Does it show what his citizenship is on that

25 record?

Page 13598

1 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, the

2 record reflects, "Simo Aignovic" and it's Simo

3 Jovanovic who was the person in the indictment.


5 Q. Ma'am, does it show what his citizenship was

6 on that certificate?

7 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness please

8 repeat the answer?

9 MR. MORAN: We have the same mistake again on

10 Mr. Jovanovic's name. Just for the record, it's

11 J-o-v-a-n-o-v-i-c.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The interpreters want

13 you to repeat that question.


15 Q. The question was, does that death

16 certificate, Prosecution Exhibit 186, show a

17 citizenship of Mr. Jovanovic not Aignovic?

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Show her the

19 certificate.

20 MR. MORAN: Could she be shown that

21 certificate again? Prosecution 186.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, from this certificate of

23 death, it can be seen that there is a citizenship and

24 it is the citizenship of Republic of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 13599

1 MR. MORAN: No further questions, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any other -- well,

4 that's the re-examination. This is all we have for

5 this witness. Thank you very much and I think that's

6 the end of the examination. Thank you, you are

7 discharged.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you, Your

9 Honours.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the Defence would

11 call Dr. Jusufbegovic.

12 JUDGE JAN: Same as the witness who appeared

13 for Delalic?

14 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know. We

15 can ask him. I have no idea.

16 JUDGE JAN: I think you examined Dr. Ahmed

17 Jusufbegovic.

18 MR. MORAN: I think they're brothers.

19 They're related somehow, cousins something like that,

20 but we can ask. Now that I recall, I was confused and

21 was talking to that doctor about what this doctor is

22 going to testify to and I got a very blank stare.

23 MS. McHENRY: May I just for now indicate

24 that my understanding from Defence counsel was that

25 this witness may testify about medical details of some

Page 13600

1 of his patients. And I would ask that any such

2 information be done in private session.

3 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just so the record

4 is clear, he's already been instructed by me and he has

5 agreed that there are certain things, certain medical

6 procedures, certain things, and I have asked him not to

7 mention certain things in specific because of a

8 previous ruling of the Trial Chamber. And, secondly,

9 anything that in his opinion should be kept

10 confidential, if he would say so, he will ask to go

11 into private section.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To be on the safe side,

13 we'll go into private session in case we have problems,

14 we have to redact.

15 MR. MORAN: Is it the Trial

16 Chamber's pleasure and it's fine with me just to do

17 this entire thing in private session.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, private session.

19 MR. MORAN: That's fine, Your Honour. I have

20 absolutely no problem with that.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Since the bulk of his

22 testimony might affect such things.

23 (Private session)

24 (The witness entered court)

25 (redacted)

Page 13601













13 Page 13601 to 13620 redacted - in closed session













Page 13621

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (Open Session)

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes. You can see how

10 much we bandied the names.

11 MR. MORAN: Pardon me, Your Honour?

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can see how much we

13 bandied the names of those prohibited witnesses.

14 MR. MORAN: Yes. I was more worried about

15 bandying their medical conditions than their names.

16 Your Honour was quite correct in just going into

17 private session.

18 Judge, I am out of witnesses. We've got two

19 more that are flying in, they will be in late tonight.

20 Remember, I told you a little bit earlier there was

21 some problem with getting seats on aeroplanes. And I

22 would ask the Trial Chamber's indulgence -- we've been

23 continually cutting back our number of witnesses, as

24 the Trial Chamber knows. I would ask the Trial

25 Chamber's indulgence and let us -- since these people

Page 13622

1 will be in late tonight, if we let them sleep in in the

2 morning and let us talk to them, and bring them in

3 Thursday to testify. They should be both fairly

4 short.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can they come in in the

6 afternoon tomorrow?

7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, we can see --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if they could for

9 that time and start at 2.30.

10 MR. MORAN: I have a 2.00 appointment with

11 the President involving not this case but another

12 person I represent. I'd rather not go any further than

13 that.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't let that affect

15 us.

16 MR. MORAN: I understand that, Your Honours,

17 but I would ask your indulgence to let me go to that

18 and discuss with President McDonald the matters

19 involving this other client who is a member of our bar.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Karabdic is here and

21 we will carry on at 2.30.

22 How long is your appointment? Thirty

23 minutes, so we start at three.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I suspect that

25 President McDonald will be rather short and to the

Page 13623

1 point on this matter. Knowing Judge McDonald as I do,

2 she is not a person to mince words.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So we can start at

4 three.

5 MR. MORAN: I presume we can start at three,

6 Your Honours.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is this your last

8 witness for today?

9 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. Like I say, we

10 are out of witnesses. There was another witness that

11 was on our list. It turns out other people have

12 testified to the same thing, and I don't want to waste

13 your time.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've asked for a

15 subpoena for a third witness?

16 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. That's the

17 fellow who actually brought the food to the camp. And

18 the reason we ask for the subpoena for him is, again,

19 his wife won't let him come without one.

20 And also, as I understand, he is on

21 Mr. Landzo's witness list, so if we can get him here

22 now, it's just as easy. Or if there's a time problem,

23 we can bring him in during Landzo's case, but he's

24 going to at some point need a subpoena.

25 Also, I understand -- I have not seen it, but

Page 13624

1 that the subpoena that was issued for the other two

2 witnesses was to appear on Tuesday.


4 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. We have

5 coordinated with Victim Witness, and I am not sure

6 whether the Bosnian government has physically served

7 those subpoenas yet or not, although Mr. Karabdic did

8 speak to some officials with that government over the

9 weekend, and I think that they will be quite willing to

10 serve them and quite willing to cooperate with the

11 Tribunal. So I don't think that will be a problem.

12 I do ask for that subpoena on Mr. Ustalic.

13 The same day would be fine. I don't think he will be

14 on very long.

15 Remember, the Trial Chamber has set aside the

16 8th for Dr. Bellas. And I don't know how long he will

17 be. And that would pretty well close down our case.

18 We may be able to give you back a day or two.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll see how it works

20 out.

21 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, if I might, the

22 Defence of Esad Landzo has quite a few outstanding

23 motions before the Court, and I would like to know when

24 and -- when these motions can be heard and some

25 decisions made. They affect the presentation of our

Page 13625

1 evidence coming up, and I'd like to take care of them

2 ahead of time and not wait 'til the 11th hour.

3 JUDGE JAN: Safe conduct passes have been

4 issued to a number of your witnesses.

5 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, they have.

6 Those are not the pending motions.

7 JUDGE JAN: You are asking the Prosecution to

8 indicate to you the suspects among your list of

9 witnesses?

10 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. We can't

11 effectively give any witnesses, who may be coming under

12 the safe conduct, the Rule 42 warnings and offer them

13 the right to have counsel, if we don't know exactly who

14 are the suspects that the Prosecution has stated.

15 I talked to Ms. McHenry -- well, Ms. Boler

16 spoke to Ms. McHenry, and her response was we had heard

17 the Prosecution evidence and we can draw our own

18 conclusions. With such rights at stake before this

19 Tribunal, I don't think it's right for us to guess who

20 may be the suspects. We have a right to know at this

21 point so that we are able to inform them properly.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- to satisfy that none

23 of your witnesses is a suspect?

24 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour. Ms. McHenry

25 clearly represented the other day that some of my

Page 13626

1 witnesses are suspects, but she hasn't told me which

2 ones are. And I think it's most important that before

3 they appear in The Hague that they be given their

4 rights under Rule 42, and they be given the opportunity

5 to have counsel, if they want it at this point, before

6 they can make an informed decision about what to

7 testify to. And, you know, what rights they have at

8 their disposal, if they are considered suspects.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Until they are so

10 designated as suspects, should they be entitled to

11 those rights?

12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, in my motion I

13 cited on the record Ms. McHenry stating in this

14 courtroom that some of my witnesses are suspects. I

15 think we have a right to know which ones she is talking

16 about at this point.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is a

18 misrepresentation of the position, if I may say so.

19 The position is that some of the witnesses that were

20 proposed to be called, we have interviewed, and in the

21 course of the interview we gave them a warning, as we

22 would give a suspect. That doesn't automatically

23 determine that they are suspects. It's a precaution

24 that is taken by investigators every day, if there's a

25 potential that someone could become one.

Page 13627

1 In any event, in relation to those persons,

2 we have told Ms. McHenry the names -- I'm sorry, Ms.

3 McMurrey the names, and so to suggest that we are not

4 going to give those names is incorrect.

5 In relation to the balance of the --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You mean the names of

7 those who you regard as suspects?

8 MS. McMURREY: Absolutely not, Your Honours.

9 We have not received any indication who those persons

10 might be, except --

11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, that we interviewed. The

12 people that we interviewed as suspects, that's what I

13 am talking about. Those people that we interviewed as

14 suspects, we said who they were.

15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, there is only one

16 witness on my list that I know for sure, which is a

17 protected witness, DB.4, who was given his rights

18 before. I had been informed that there are other

19 people on my list that they treat as suspects. And

20 under the definitions of our statute a suspect is a

21 person --

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that is very

23 well-known. If they have designated anybody as

24 suspects, then no more warnings will be given to him.

25 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I feel I have an

Page 13628

1 obligation as an attorney --

2 JUDGE JAN: Haven't you been given the names

3 of those suspects?

4 MS. McMURREY: I have only been given that

5 DB.4 was given suspect warnings. I have been told that

6 other people have also -- I'm sorry, there are two

7 witnesses that have been given suspect warnings, but

8 there are other people on my list, I believe, that are

9 suspects from the Prosecution also.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You believe?

11 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Not that the Prosecution

13 itself so believes?

14 MS. McMURREY: Well, I don't understand at

15 this point why they can't put in writing, tell me who

16 they believe the suspects are, and then there is no

17 problem with it.

18 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may. I

19 mean, Your Honours may have had an opportunity to read

20 this motion, where the Prosecution is described as a

21 snake lying behind a log. I was somewhat disconcerted

22 when I first read that, Your Honours, but was happy to

23 see that Ms. McMurrey referred to her witnesses as

24 rabbits.

25 Your Honours, our position on this is that no

Page 13629

1 prosecutorial agency anywhere in the world gives out

2 the names of people who it may consider to be suspects,

3 which are in the course of investigation, and we are

4 not going to do it either. There are procedures

5 available, namely, if the witness testifies and says

6 something that may incriminate him or her, then

7 something can be done about that in the course of the

8 testimony.

9 The safe conduct ensures that while the

10 person is here, we are not going to pounce on that

11 suspecting rabbit and put them in jail. That's the

12 whole purpose of the order. We are not going to tell

13 Ms. McMurrey or anybody else who we are investigating,

14 and no prosecutorial agency ever would be expected to.

15 And all the procedures are in place to ensure that this

16 witness can freely come to The Hague, can give the

17 testimony, can seek whatever protections may be

18 available to them from the Chamber, and return safely

19 from whence they came.

20 Now, if they go back there and they have said

21 something here or we are in the middle of an

22 investigation, we will go and arrest them, if we can.

23 But if we can't, well that's another matter. But we

24 are not going to tell Ms. McMurrey about it, Your

25 Honours.

Page 13630

1 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- if the

2 court forces them to make a statement --

3 MR. NIEMANN: We won't be able to use it

4 either.

5 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, in order to

6 know who the people are that I need to advise about

7 under Rule 90 (f), as far as the proceedings in the

8 courtroom, I need to know who is a suspect.

9 JUDGE JAN: You can assure them that they can

10 go back home safely.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me tell you very,

12 very clearly there is no court which can compel a

13 Prosecutor to exercise his discretion to disclose his

14 suspects. It is entirely a discretionary matter based

15 on the evidence before him. I mean, it's not for us to

16 tell him, you must disclose someone who he suspects.

17 We can't do that. It is not within our power.

18 MS. McMURREY: Just for clarification, you

19 know, I was relying on the representation that

20 Ms. McHenry made in court. And I asked for the names.

21 She said, basically, it would -- or you said, I

22 believe, the court said that you will be told who the

23 witnesses -- who the suspects are, and I relied upon

24 that.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution, if it

Page 13631

1 has made up its mind about who it suspects, can

2 exercise its discretion in that regard to tell you.

3 But it's not for the courts, who does not know who he

4 decides to suspect, to tell you to give you the name

5 who it suspects.

6 MS. McMURREY: So I am supposed to guess from

7 the evidence that the Prosecutor --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: How would you know who

9 he suspects?

10 MS. McMURREY: Well, she said I could draw my

11 own conclusions from the evidence presented so far.

12 And based upon that I am supposed to invoke their Rule

13 42 rights and offer them counsel at that point, not

14 knowing one way or the other?

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Prosecution can even

16 invoke the Rule 42 rights --

17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I believe, as an

18 officer of the court, if I believe this witness is a

19 suspect, I have an obligation to give them their Rule

20 42 warnings.

21 JUDGE JAN: But you can tell them that they

22 can come back home safe. In this respect -- maybe

23 there are ongoing investigations.

24 MS. McMURREY: Sorry, I didn't get the last

25 one.

Page 13632

1 JUDGE JAN: Maybe there is some ongoing

2 investigations. And he might even become a suspect

3 during the course of the trial. How can they at this

4 time commit themselves, no, no, he is not a suspect?

5 MS. McMURREY: I just thought they had a

6 concrete list of who they knew was a suspect, and if

7 they are refusing to reveal that, I suppose --

8 JUDGE JAN: We can only ensure you that they

9 will go back home safe. Mr. Niemann will not grab them

10 here.

11 MS. McMURREY: I will just have to advise

12 every one of my witnesses, if they think there is

13 evidence that may tend to incriminate them in the

14 future --

15 JUDGE JAN: You can tell them they have the

16 protection, that if they state anything which

17 incriminates them, and they raise an objection before

18 making the statement, that statement will not be used

19 in any proceedings before this Tribunal. That should

20 be sufficient for you. That's what the Rule says.

21 MS. McMURREY: Yes, that is what the Rule

22 says. Thank you, Your Honour. I will just need to

23 advise each witness of that before they testify.

24 I also have other outstanding issues. I

25 think the Court had ordered. On Friday evening I

Page 13633

1 received an order about five o'clock that we were going

2 to hear at ten o'clock yesterday morning the issue on

3 the subpoena duces tecum. And I have some evidence if

4 the court would like to hear that at this point. But

5 we have -- I also have a request for the definition

6 of --

7 JUDGE JAN: How can we give you any

8 definition at this stage? We need your evidence and

9 facts and then we draw our conclusions. We are not

10 writing a book of law here, law of crimes here.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You plead a Defence

12 whose parameters you do not know.

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it's not

14 defined. Therefore, when we begin the presentation of

15 our evidence --

16 JUDGE JAN: We give our findings after we

17 know what the evidence is.

18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, how do we know

19 what it is we have to prove?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You've pleaded it

21 already.

22 JUDGE JAN: The judicial matter, as we

23 understand this, this first inquiry into facts. Then

24 the facts are established, then we'll determine what

25 principle of law is to be applied. So unless we know

Page 13634

1 the facts, how can we tell you what is the definition

2 of diminished responsibility in the circumstances of

3 this case? How can we do it? You argue it after the

4 evidence is given.

5 MS. McMURREY: But the burden shifts to the

6 Defence.

7 JUDGE JAN: Of course it does. But then we

8 must know what the facts are. We must first of all

9 know what the evidence states on factual ground.

10 MS. McMURREY: So we present a blanket amount

11 of evidence hoping that the Court --

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, what did you

13 have in mind when you are pleading a Defence? What did

14 you have in mind?

15 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, all I had to draw

16 from is the jurisdiction that I come from, and we would

17 never go into Court not knowing what it is we have to

18 plead. We are given definitions ahead of time. This

19 Court doesn't have any definitions.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's what your

21 American --

22 JUDGE JAN: The Court never gives findings of

23 questions law in a vacuum. You have to refer to the

24 facts. You produce your facts and then we'll see.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You know, since you

Page 13635

1 shifted from the Durham (Phon) rule, the story has

2 always been there. Everybody knows what a particular

3 Defence, which is based on insanity, are not listed.

4 This is your problem, because the Durham (Phon) rule is

5 generally used in the Americans --

6 MS. McMURREY: This is not insanity.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: This is a passion

8 insanity.

9 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, it's a

10 different defence completely.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay, diminished

12 responsibility.

13 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Okay. Go and read it

15 again in the American jurisdiction. Go ahead and read

16 it again.

17 MS. McMURREY: It's not an American

18 jurisdiction. It's in British jurisdiction.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't have to argue

20 with you. But I am telling you, the shift has always

21 been from both sides of the Atlantic, not only from

22 Scotland, from Britain, from US, from Canada, they

23 have always been the same. And it is not new, even in

24 the United States. It's there.

25 So if you really say you have been using it

Page 13636

1 with the case law jurisdiction there, then pick it up.

2 And from what you have said, you have now pleaded it,

3 you need the facts on which you are pleading. If those

4 are the facts on which you rely, plead it --

5 JUDGE JAN: No Court can give you a finding

6 on a question of law in a vacuum.

7 MS. McMURREY: In a vacuum, no --

8 JUDGE JAN: Produce the evidence and we will

9 see.

10 MS. McMURREY: I am going to assume that we

11 will go with the most widely accepted, basic

12 definition, and I will proceed based upon that

13 assumption on my part.

14 JUDGE JAN: That's for you to decide what

15 evidence to lead.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't be too

17 introspective about it or feel that it is a closed

18 jurisdiction. The law has been very clearly stated

19 since 1957. It's clear.

20 MS. McMURREY: You are right, the Homicide

21 Act in Great Britain of 1957 was very clear, and I'm

22 glad you gave me an indication of that. Thank you. I

23 think I have a clearer view on what it is I am looking

24 for, anyway.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you knew it

Page 13637

1 when you were pleading it.

2 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we don't study

3 the 1957 Homicide Act in our law school in our country

4 because we do not have a defence of diminished mental

5 capacity in the United States. We have a mitigation of

6 punishment, but we do not have a defence. So thank

7 you.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I would like to

9 do something much simpler now. We have a request,

10 which we have submitted to the Trial Chamber. The

11 Prosecutor has heard the Defence of Mr. Delalic, and he

12 now already probably knows whether there will be a

13 replica to that defence. Our request is, if this is

14 certain and if they know which evidence they are going

15 to lead, that they should, according to their duties

16 based on Article 66, to let us know about that.

17 And with regard to your respect, I would like

18 you -- I would like to ask you to tell us under which

19 -- in which deadlines this should be done based on

20 your ruling. I would like to say that so far we have

21 received no response by the Prosecution to take our

22 request into the -- into consideration, and I would

23 like for us -- for all of us to be ready to do our task

24 within this deadline. And therefore I would like to

25 ask you to take this request into consideration and to

Page 13638

1 issue an order, if the Prosecution decides to replicate

2 the defence of Mr. Delalic.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought you argued the

4 motion about the limitation of your defence and losing

5 your case and all that accompanied it. I think --

6 there is a decision on that.

7 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I think she is

8 referring to rebuttal, Your Honour.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: No, I was not talking about

10 that request. I -- we submitted a request which should

11 demand from the Prosecution to state whether they will

12 have rebuttal with regard to Mr. Delalic, that all our

13 evidence -- that all the evidence is shown to us and

14 that we are given the witness names.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (No microphone) -- that

16 motion, whether there would be rebuttal or -- they were

17 all in that.

18 JUDGE JAN: It may be premature for the

19 Prosecution to respond to your request. The witness is

20 still being examined. Some of the witnesses, just like

21 today also, spoke about Mr. Delalic. Maybe when the

22 Prosecution -- the Defence evidence is over, the

23 Prosecution will have a clearer picture whether to lead

24 evidence in rebuttal or not.

25 Also, some of the witnesses spoke about that

Page 13639

1 role of Delalic to produce certificates. The lady here

2 -- that he was not holding any particular office.

3 Maybe some of the witnesses produced by the other

4 defendants made something about the role of Mr. Delalic

5 in the affair. So until the whole evidence is over,

6 how can we ask the Prosecutor to give an undertaking or

7 make a statement that he will produce or not produce

8 any evidence in rebuttal?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's a joint trial,

10 and --

11 JUDGE JAN: But this is the difficulty with

12 the Prosecutor. Am I right?

13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honour.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, we are not --

15 we do not want to interfere with the Prosecution's

16 work. The Prosecution will do what they will do at the

17 end of evidence. We would just like to know after

18 that, the deadlines within which this distinguished

19 Tribunal will give us to prepare for our rejoinder.

20 And, therefore, in our request there were some

21 deadlines stated for your order which would give us

22 this opportunity to -- which would help this Court be

23 fairer to everybody the way it was so far. And we are

24 all here now in this courtroom and, therefore, I want

25 to just to make sure that we have time if the

Page 13640

1 Prosecutor uses his right to prepare for the rejoinder

2 and for the closing statements. That was the essence

3 of our statement, so that we can prepare.

4 JUDGE JAN: We can only give an estimate of

5 the prosecutor after we know how many days Ms. McMurrey

6 is going to take in leading in evidence. Then we'll

7 have a better idea.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, since the

9 Prosecution will, if he does exercise his rights about

10 rebuttals, then when he informs the Trial Chamber, they

11 will know how to fix the time scale.

12 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on).

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: When he exercises his

14 rights, then we'll know what he has to do, because it

15 will never be through the prejudice of any other...

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 That is precisely what I was hoping to hear. As you

18 are well aware, we cannot prepare our rejoinder

19 overnight.

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, definitely.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, thank you.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I received a

24 letter from the Prosecution which I responded to

25 today. I think Ms. Boler is getting the reports from

Page 13641

1 the two Dutch doctors right now. Only last weekend,

2 the Italian forensic, I mean, clinical psychologist

3 completed his testing of Mr. Landzo. That report has

4 now been sent to all of the psychiatrists and they will

5 be writing a report which should be available within

6 the week. I just don't have it yet and they couldn't

7 write their report until they had the findings of the

8 clinical psychologist.

9 JUDGE JAN: And how many other witnesses do

10 you intend to examine? Just an idea.

11 MS. McMURREY: I think I have -- well, that

12 is one of the next issues I have. I am having a very

13 difficult time getting my witnesses to come to The

14 Hague. I have the outstanding subpoena duces tecum

15 here., But I filed a new subpoena for witnesses that I

16 have not subpoenaed before. We're having a difficult

17 time.

18 I filed another motion for leave of court to

19 file to call additional witnesses to replace some of

20 the witnesses that I may or may not be able to call.

21 So I attached to this leave of Court to call additional

22 witnesses. The same kind of notice that the

23 Prosecution gave us. These are witnesses we will call,

24 these are witnesses we may call, but I won't call any

25 more than 20 fact witnesses, okay. I don't know which

Page 13642

1 ones they're going to be until we see whether we get

2 the subpoenas issued and who is going to be able to

3 come. But I won't call any more than 20 fact

4 witnesses. And that means there are three or four

5 expert witnesses. So I really expect to be concluded

6 by the first week in August, August 1, really. Based

7 upon the way all the other testimonies have gone also.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, it depends on

9 how much you understand your case. That is the most

10 important thing.

11 MS. McMURREY: I also wanted to ask the Court

12 another question. Mr. Hawking and victim and witnesses

13 have brought to my attention that we are set to start

14 July 13th. There is no way they can bring any of my

15 witnesses to The Hague until the night of July 13th,

16 because there's no housing from even as far as

17 Rotterdam due to the jazz festival.

18 JUDGE JAN: Maybe they can be accommodated in

19 Rotterdam because it's only about 20 minutes drive.

20 MS. McMURREY: I believe the victim and

21 witnesses has taken that into account already and

22 they've said that there is really no way. At that

23 point, of course, I would have to rent a car or --

24 JUDGE JAN: You may not have the comforts of

25 The Hague, but it's within drivable distance.

Page 13643

1 MS. McMURREY: If we start July 13th, I am

2 predicting that we'll be through within two and a half

3 weeks based upon --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Before you enter the

5 length of a trial you should know exactly what they are

6 about to say, that determines how long it will take.

7 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, it also

8 determines on the amount of the cross-examination from

9 the prosecution. I can give my best guess, but I can't

10 narrow it down to the minute and the second. And I

11 don't think that I should be asked to at this point. I

12 am doing the best I can to organise this ahead of time

13 so we don't have any glitches when we come there.

14 Also going back to the subpoena duces tecum,

15 which the order on Friday asked me to answer two

16 questions for the Court. And one of the questions is

17 answered here. Friday afternoon I faxed to the Bosnian

18 Embassy the question about the Konjic hospital. Ms.

19 Vividovic (Phon) from the Bosnian Embassy, contacted

20 the Deputy Minister of Health in Sarajevo. And I have

21 a signed document here from the Deputy Minister of

22 Health in Sarajevo stating the status -- it's not a

23 hospital in Konjic, it's a health centre. And it says

24 that it did not exist before the war, but it was formed

25 during the war as a war hospital and it is within the

Page 13644

1 net of war hospitals. Work on war hospitals was legal

2 and those hospitals consisted of a net of war hospitals

3 that ceased to exist after the Dayton agreement was

4 signed in 1995. So now it's considered a health centre

5 in Konjic, not a hospital, and it says we cannot

6 confirm for sure whether a hospital will be registered

7 there within the net of health institutions, but they

8 don't believe so. So, at this point, to re-urge my

9 request for the important medical documents that I

10 believe are in the --

11 JUDGE JAN: Where are those documents then?

12 MS. McMURREY: We don't have --

13 JUDGE JAN: You have to tell us where those

14 documents are before you can ask us to produce them.

15 MS. McMURREY: Well, I think the question

16 was, if it's not a state hospital, can you order the --

17 JUDGE JAN: We can ask the Bosnian government

18 for assistance in getting the subpoena served on

19 persons or institutions within the state.

20 MS. McMURREY: Well, the Bosnian Embassy and

21 the Ministry of Health cannot confirm that that is a

22 state hospital at this point.

23 JUDGE JAN: You have to give the correct

24 address. You have to give the correct description.

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if it's a health

Page 13645

1 centre, it's still within the jurisdiction of the

2 State.

3 MS. McMURREY: Now I think we have satisfied

4 every type of a requirement needed. We cannot get the

5 documents, that we have to directly subpoena duces

6 tecum the health centre in Konjic and ask the custodian

7 of record or Dr. Buturovic to bring them with him when

8 he comes, since he was the doctor who --

9 JUDGE JAN: You ask the doctor where the

10 record is, maybe he can give you an indication. You

11 see, this institution, whatever you call it, is within

12 the territorial limits of the State of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and you can always request them.

14 MS. McMURREY: But the question of the Court

15 to me was, was it a state hospital? My answer is that

16 the Bosnian embassy says it's not a state hospital.

17 And also as far as Dr. Buturovic goes, may I

18 let Ms. Boler respond to that, because we have tried as

19 the team, the team of Delic has tried. He will not

20 talk to us. He will not respond to us. And the

21 medical records of Mr. Landzo, Mirko Babic and Branko

22 Gotovac have not been secured at this point and I find

23 them very necessary for the Defence of this case.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: And you want such a

25 witness?

Page 13646

1 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. He did the

2 surgery on Mr. Landzo's hand. As a fact witness, I

3 would never ask him to form an opinion coming

4 adversely. As a fact witness, I need him to testify

5 about the injuries to Mr. Landzo.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Maybe you've not paid

7 his wife's fee.

8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have turned

9 that over to the registry. That's in the registry's

10 hands, not mine. Well, arrangements will be made to

11 ensure that you get your witness, but you have to be

12 sure that it is not a hostile witness.

13 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, I'll take

14 him as a hostile witness. I'll take him any way we can

15 bring him.

16 But besides the issue of the subpoena duces

17 tecum, which I assume that the Court will issue some

18 kind of order if I give you the address of the health

19 centre in Konjic, that we need those documents because

20 they're very important and this is 10 days before I am

21 to start my trial basically. And I would like to have

22 those documents or at least to know that we're in the

23 process of securing those documents. I suppose the

24 Court will render some kind of written order on that

25 some time soon because --

Page 13647

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have applied for

2 a subpoena, you get in touch with John Hawkings. We'll

3 sign the subpoena.

4 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. I applied on June

5 22nd, so --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Only on Friday.

7 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That was the 26th.

9 MS. McMURREY: No, no, no. June 22nd was the

10 Monday we got back from our week off.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the first I

12 heard of it was about 6.30 p.m. on Friday, the 26th.

13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, That's my new

14 subpoena for the testifying witnesses. The subpoena

15 duces tecum was filed June 22nd.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You didn't even give

17 particulars of the hospital and they're not appropriate

18 designation of the documents you want.

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I specifically

20 said on the Monday we returned back that we need the

21 medical records of three people. That's as specific as

22 I can get. I don't have, you know, registration

23 numbers or cause numbers because the doctor refuses to

24 talk to us. And when my investigator goes to the

25 office of records there, they say that the documents

Page 13648

1 have been checked out. And there's no record of him.

2 I mean, there's record that they existed, but somebody

3 else has them in their possession. I can bring my

4 investigator here to testify about that if you'd like

5 to hear from him, but Ms. Boler just returned last

6 night from Bosnia and I would like to ask the Court to

7 hear what she has to say about this because these are

8 really important for the Defence, if you will listen to

9 Ms. Boler.

10 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, I will just state

11 that I spent the last few days in Bosnia and got back

12 last night. Certainly discussed this with our

13 investigator, Mr. Asim Suto and also discussed the same

14 thing five or six weeks ago when I was there and in

15 between. So we've been trying for quite some time to

16 get these records. And Mr. Suto told me that, even

17 five or six weeks ago when I was there previously, that

18 he tried to get these records on several occasions and

19 that Dr. Buturovic would not give them these records

20 for the reasons that you just mentioned, Judge John and

21 maybe some other ones also.

22 JUDGE JAN: I wasn't serious.

23 MS. BOLER: But I think that that was pretty

24 much exactly what Dr. Buturovic told our investigator.

25 Also, talked to Mr. Suto again yesterday

Page 13649

1 since I was there to see if he had had any subsequent

2 luck getting those records from Dr. Buturovic. And,

3 clearly, we are unable to get these records. The

4 reason I talked about it again yesterday with Mr. Suto

5 is because Cynthia faxed me a copy of your order. I

6 was aware yesterday, you know, that there was some

7 urgency for us to respond to this order.

8 So I just, unless you have any questions, I

9 think that's all I have got to add to, just to verify

10 that we are indeed trying to get those records and

11 cannot.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any evidence

13 that the doctor has the records himself?

14 MS. BOLER: I don't know new evidence, but I

15 can tell you that Mr. Suto told me that Dr. Buturovic

16 told him -- I may not be able to quote exactly what he

17 said -- but, basically, I am not going to give you

18 those records. I believe that Dr. Buturovic does have

19 access to those records and I believe that he's

20 withholding those records from us and I think

21 that's...

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let's see what a

23 subpoena on him would do.

24 MS. McMURREY: Well, I have one quote from my

25 investigator too. When he asked Dr. Buturovic about

Page 13650

1 getting the records, Dr. Buturovic said, "You'll have

2 to see my wife about that." And I can represent that's

3 what my investigator told me. And this was on my

4 November trip -- no, that was my February trip to

5 Bosnia when I was trying to get the records at that

6 point. But I would like to ask the Court if the Court

7 would like for me to re-file another subpoena duces

8 tecum with the address of the hospital or whether I can

9 just file a supplement to this subpoena with the

10 address and maybe more specificity, whatever you would

11 like, I need to get this taken care of as soon as

12 possible.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Get in touch with John

14 Hawkings, the more up to date the address and all the

15 particulars and so that we will follow it up.

16 MS. McMURREY: I would be happy to do that.

17 Thank you very much.

18 Now, the motion that I did file at the 11th

19 hour on Friday was the motion to subpoena -- no, motion

20 for leave -- no, I just filed these today, Your

21 Honour. I'm sorry, these have been filed today. It's

22 a subpoena duces tecum -- I mean, a regular subpoena

23 for the witnesses to come testify and the leave of

24 court to add the additional witnesses and that was

25 based on my conversation with Ms. Boler at two o'clock

Page 13651

1 this morning when she slid these things under my door

2 telling me that these witnesses refused to come without

3 a subpoena. So I stayed out of court this morning to

4 draw these up so that we are not wasting the Court's

5 time, but I feel that it's very necessary. I don't

6 want to wait any longer to discuss the issue of these

7 subpoenas because I would like to start my case on time

8 and I would like to have my witnesses that I need

9 present in The Hague.

10 So based on what Ms. Boler represented to me

11 from her conversations with these witnesses over the

12 last three days, it's necessary for us to issue the

13 subpoenas if we want them to appear in The Hague. And

14 this was just filed this morning after our return from

15 writing them.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. We

17 will see to it. And we will look at it and see if --

18 well, I think we will try and help.

19 MS. McMURREY: I appreciate help right now,

20 thank you.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think that's all we

22 have on the record. Because there is -- we've cleared

23 all the motions. Some of them are not really necessary

24 motions, given your hearing, merely because you were a

25 little agitated, though some of them need not be filed

Page 13652

1 at all. So we will rise and reassemble at 3.00 p.m.

2 tomorrow.

3 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to assure the

4 Court that I don't file any motion that I don't feel is

5 necessary for the Defence.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The one on the

7 diminished responsibility was not necessary. If we

8 have anything for tomorrow morning, I don't think we

9 do, we'll reassemble at 3.00 p.m. tomorrow.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, again, I thank you

11 very much for accommodating my visit --

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.30

13 p.m. To be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st

14 of July, 1998 at 3.00 p.m.