Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13726

1 Thursday, July 2, 1998

2 --- Upon commencing at 10.08 a.m.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and

4 gentlemen. Could we have the appearances now.

5 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution, along with

7 Mr. Huber.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Can I have the appearances for

9 the Defence.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

11 I am Edina Residovic, Defence Counsel for Mr. Zejnil

12 Delalic. Mr. Delalic is also represented by Mr. Eugene

13 O'Sullivan, professor from Canada. Thank you.

14 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,

15 I am Tomislav Kuzmanovic on behalf of Mr. Mucic.

16 I would make a request of the Court. My client, at

17 2.00, has a mass at the prison, and he has granted me

18 the authority to state that should the trial go beyond

19 into this afternoon, that he has given permission for

20 the trial to continue from his perspective without his

21 presence. So I would ask that -- make that request

22 that he be allowed to attend mass at 2.00 this

23 afternoon. It's his name's day mass, and the priest is

24 going to be in the prison for this mass and that's the

25 basis for the request. Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 13727


2 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours. I

3 am Salih Karabdic, attorney from Sarajevo, Defence

4 Counsel for Mr. Hazim Delic. Mr. Hazim Delic is also

5 represented by my colleague, Mr. Tom Moran, attorney

6 from Houston, Texas.

7 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours, I

8 am Cynthia McMurrey, and along with my co-counsel,

9 Nancy Boler, we represent Esad Landzo.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, my client,

11 Mr. Zejnil Delalic, has some health problems, has had

12 them for several days, and today his situation

13 worsened. He's being examined. I have contacted with

14 him and he has given me authorisation to tell you that

15 the trial can go on without his presence. Thank you.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much. I

17 think Mr. Mucic might be able to attend his mass at the

18 appointed time, as long as you continue to represent

19 his interest here.

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the witness

22 now.

23 (The witness entered court)

24 WITNESS: Bajram Demic, Continued:

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Inform the witness he is

Page 13728

1 still under oath.

2 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you, Mr. Demic,

3 that you are still under oath.


5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. Residovic, you can

6 proceed with your cross-examination now.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic, Continued

9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Demic.

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. Did you rest a little bit? I know it was a

12 long journey.

13 A. I slept a little bit later.

14 Q. Mr. Demic, let's go back to the part of the

15 conversation where we left off, when our time expired

16 yesterday.

17 Beforehand, Mr. Demic, in order to clarify

18 completely what you were saying yesterday before this

19 Tribunal, can you tell us one more time where did you

20 go after you taped the interview at the Celebici

21 barracks, and how it happened that you met with

22 Mr. Delalic.

23 A. I believe that there was nothing unclear

24 there. When -- I think that I can even recollect every

25 curve of the road between Celebici and Konjic. I can

Page 13729

1 draw it for you. I know this road extremely well.

2 We left the compound, we turned to the right

3 towards Konjic, and behind us we left a tunnel, and

4 then there was an underpass, the railroad, and then we

5 went along the Neretva River for about 10 kilometres,

6 until we reached the first houses.

7 And the first house is the house of

8 Mr. Delalic. All other houses are across the river.

9 So we are going along the river and there are villages

10 along there. And on the other side there is a hill and

11 the forest, and then there are up there, there are some

12 houses and some clearings. Then you enter Konjic. On

13 the one side is the gas station. At the other side is

14 a tire repair shop and the car wash. And then we

15 arrived at Mr. Delalic's house.

16 He stepped out of his house. The gas station

17 was closed. He waved to us and made a signal to stop.

18 We were driving in a car, a Wartburg, which is an East

19 German car make.

20 Q. Mr. Demic, did I understand you correctly.

21 Did you -- you did not go to see Mr. Delalic, but when

22 you passed, when Mr. Delalic saw your vehicle, he

23 signalled you to stop; is that -- is my understanding

24 correct?

25 A. You may not have remembered, but we were very

Page 13730

1 tight with time. We were going to take the material to

2 the tower up on Mount Bjelasnica, and we were in a

3 great hurry. So we wanted to ask someone, because in

4 our footage we had all the stories that we needed to

5 have, everybody who was concerned there. So we were

6 just trying to verify the information, and not some

7 kind of a general condition in the -- in this prison.

8 In other words, I am not sure what you are not clear

9 about.

10 Q. With respect to that, I am going to ask you

11 just one further question. Since you pinpointed a time

12 when this was happening, and yesterday we saw from the

13 interview, from the videotape, that the doctor said

14 that two, three weeks before that he was a prisoner

15 too. So based on all of that, the Tribunal can gain an

16 idea about the time frame in which you made this

17 interview.

18 So, as you are saying, this is August, either

19 mid-August or around 10th of August, is it true that

20 about 10 days earlier you had met with Mr. Delalic as

21 commander of Tactical Group at his headquarters in

22 Pasaric?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you and your colleague, Jadranka

25 Milosevic, know Mr. Delalic from that time on, and did

Page 13731

1 he know you?

2 A. Yes, absolutely. Because he was commander of

3 this area, or of these units which were getting

4 prepared to help in the lift of the siege of Sarajevo.

5 Q. Mr. Demic, I believe that now the situation

6 is much clearer, because, obviously, maybe it was the

7 way I asked the question, but thank you for clarifying

8 this. And I apologise for taking you back to it.

9 The last thing I had asked you yesterday,

10 during our conversation, was whether in this area where

11 Mr. Delalic was in charge, was a commander of Tactical

12 Group 1 on the tasks of lifting the siege of Sarajevo,

13 did you then, together with your colleague, Jadranka

14 Milosevic, receive from him an interview?

15 A. Yes, I believe this was at Ormanje. And,

16 yes, we did. This is an area that is in the area of

17 Hadzici --

18 JUDGE JAN: Confine your answer to what is

19 being asked. You are giving details in which we are

20 not interested. Please go ahead.

21 A. Sorry, it's a professional thing. I think we

22 are probably paid by word, but I will take that into

23 account.

24 JUDGE JAN: Not here.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Very well. I think we are

Page 13732

1 all clear now.

2 Q. But I will please ask you, as we have been

3 advised by the Tribunal, please try to be as succinct

4 as possible.

5 A. See, also, there were some unclear points, so

6 I was just trying to be helpful and clarify it.

7 However, I can also answer by "yes" or "no."

8 Q. Very well. I would now request that excerpt

9 number 2 be shown. It's an interview with Mr. Delalic

10 and it's part of the evidence which has already been

11 submitted to the Tribunal, and I believe it's part of

12 the Exhibit No. 116 of the Prosecution. So, please,

13 can we run excerpt number 2, please.

14 (Videotape played)

15 THE INTERPRETER: The situation in our units

16 is very good. There are units from about 10

17 municipalities under my command, and include BiH armed

18 forces and the HOS units. The HVO does not participate

19 in this action. Moreover, they have been obstructing

20 these operations in the Kiseljak area, the HVO units

21 sit together in the same tent with the Chetniks. And

22 during the capture of Ostrik, they even let the Chetnik

23 tanks, two tanks, pass through their territory. And we

24 informed the Supreme Command about this. In the action

25 of the encircling of this area we will take measures

Page 13733

1 regardless of what party might be involved, whether it

2 is the HVO or the Chetniks.

3 Considering the other aspects of the

4 situation, our forces are several times as strong as

5 the Chetnik ones. We are just waiting for the Supreme

6 Command to order full attack. The Supreme Command

7 wants to spare as many private and public buildings and

8 to have as few civilian victims, regardless of their

9 ethnic background.

10 We also would like to say to the people of

11 Sarajevo, who have been under siege and attacks for

12 many months, that we hope to see them very soon. All

13 our soldiers are highly motivated and we can hardly

14 wait to hug the people from Sarajevo at Bascarsija or

15 Marin Dvor.

16 Q. Mr. Demic, do you recognise the persons in

17 this videotape, in this interview?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who are these persons?

20 A. It is Zejnil Delalic and my colleague

21 Jadranka Milosevic.

22 Q. Who taped this?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. Mr. Demic, you told us, previously, that this

25 was at Ormanje. Is this a very rugged and inaccessible

Page 13734

1 mountain area which was part of the effort to lift the

2 siege of Sarajevo?

3 A. Yes, this was a very rugged, very forested

4 area, and you could only use horseback to --

5 JUDGE JAN: How is it all relevant? We know

6 he was a TG-1 commander. He was a TG-1 commander. He

7 was engaged in fighting. So how is it all relevant?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I am going to

9 ask some questions regarding this excerpt, and from

10 them you will see that there is connection here with

11 Mr. Delalic. Let me pose you a question right away.

12 Q. Mr. Demic, is it true that as early as that

13 time there were attacks of the HVO against the army

14 units and response of Mr. -- very decisive response of

15 Mr. Delalic regarding that?

16 A. Yes, it was already at that time we had

17 tensions, especially in the area of Kiseljak, and the

18 other commander in that area responded to that even

19 more decisively than Mr. Delalic did.

20 Q. Mr. Demic, did you, as a journalist, know

21 that as early as that period there was a propaganda

22 campaign waged against Zejnil Delalic at that time?

23 A. Yes. From Mostar came an attack -- I believe

24 that this was counterintelligence attack, that he was a

25 part of this counterintelligence group of the -- and

Page 13735

1 that he was poisoning the relations between Croats and

2 Muslims in the area.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, there will be

4 several more questions in this area, since this is

5 where the campaign against Mr. Delalic started. I

6 believe that this interview is relevant and this

7 witness recognised this interview as his own, and I

8 tender it into evidence.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: (Microphone not on) --

10 that there was a campaign against him. And so what?

11 There was a malicious campaign against Delalic, so

12 what? What has that to do? Is it sure that he was not

13 a commander --

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, I am not

15 receiving your interpretation of what you are saying.

16 Part of the evidence that the Prosecution has offered

17 as part of the propaganda campaign here, and we have a

18 witness who, by interviewing these relevant persons,

19 has found out the facts, even while Mr. Delalic was on

20 the ground in the area. And I believe that it is

21 important that you know the facts that this witness is

22 referring to. And this is why this witness has been

23 called to testify.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You say there was

25 propaganda against him? Are you denying that there was

Page 13736

1 any propaganda? Whether other propaganda was true or

2 not, does it affect whatever was charged?

3 MS. McHENRY: If I might also add something.

4 As I understood Ms. Residovic, this videotape is also

5 in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 116, so there is no

6 need to get it into evidence a second time, if it's

7 just a portion of the same exhibit which has been

8 admitted. Obviously, Defence Counsel can use whatever

9 she thinks is relevant of the seized videos, just as

10 the Prosecution can.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes, thank you for clarifying

12 this, and we have just heard the witness who has

13 authenticated this piece of evidence, and we see that

14 this propaganda has to be countered by facts which

15 would serve to lay the ground for the

16 counter-propaganda that we are trying to introduce

17 here. But, as my colleague has just said, this has

18 already been admitted --

19 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- round

20 about way. Ask him straight away about the propaganda.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- but he's in a

22 position to dispute the propaganda. He's not the one,

23 only one let it out.

24 JUDGE JAN: Why go the roundabout way?

25 Straight away ask the question.

Page 13737


2 Q. Mr. Demic, we saw the tape, we heard the

3 suggestions of the Trial Chamber. I already asked you

4 this, did you know that there was -- propaganda

5 campaign was waged against Mr. Delalic at that time,

6 and that he was branded as a person who was betraying

7 certain interests?

8 A. Yes, but General Jovo Divjak was part of that

9 package, so-to-speak, because these accusations were

10 levelled against him as well. They were both accused

11 of working for the same agency, that is the

12 intelligence agency.

13 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on) -- agency of?

14 A. Of the JNA or the former Yugoslavia.


16 Q. So, Mr. Demic, you know that both Mr. Delalic

17 and Mr. Jovo Divjak were victims of this propaganda

18 which was vociferously waged against them, even while

19 Mr. Delalic was still in that area?

20 A. Yes. In an interview Mr. Divjak publicly

21 complained about it, and I believe that this was

22 broadcast, it was a part of an interview which I made

23 with Mr. Delalic and Mr. Fehbija Karic.

24 Q. So on another later occasion you taped an

25 interview with -- an interview with Mr. Delalic,

Page 13738

1 Mr. Fehbija Karic and Mr. Jovo Divjak; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is this an interview when you asked him of

4 their opinion as -- following the attack of the HVO in

5 Prozor?

6 A. Yes, precisely. We attempted to enter

7 Prozor, but we were turned back at the barrack -- at

8 the barricade, and so we had to come back. And then we

9 taped the interview with all three persons which you

10 just mentioned.

11 Q. Since you have just mentioned it, can you

12 recall, was this -- when was this? Could this have

13 been late October, early November?

14 A. Yes. It was at that time we were -- later,

15 about three or four days later, we entered Prozor and

16 were arrested.

17 Q. Mr. Demic, is this the interview when

18 Mr. Divjak personally pointed out the propaganda of the

19 HVO against himself and Mr. Zejnil Delalic?

20 A. Not just the HVO. I believe that there was

21 certain circles on the Bosnian side which were either

22 linked to the circles in the HVO or maybe for some

23 other reasons, may be career reason. I am not going to

24 speculate on it.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Yesterday, Mr. Demic,

Page 13739

1 you said that as a war correspondent in the area of

2 Mount Igman you had a number of meetings with our

3 refugees and you conducted a number of interviews with

4 these persons; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. We were the first to tape some footage

6 from Mount Igman, and they went -- they were shown

7 around the world through the Eurovision exchange.

8 Q. Is it true that through this you became a

9 witness of many horrible stories of people who were

10 fleeing the Chetnik territory?

11 A. This was something I was listening to

12 throughout the war, but not just listened to, but also

13 watched.

14 Q. Mr. Demic, tell me, if there were someone

15 from the Bosnia side, if somebody were to accuse a

16 Bosniak of being a collaborator of the KOS the counter

17 intelligence or of the Chetniks, what would that

18 mean --

19 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object to

20 continued questions.

21 JUDGE JAN: It's an opinion. It's an

22 opinion.

23 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not

24 activated)

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

Page 13740

1 please.

2 JUDGE JAN: If you're accused of being a

3 friend of your enemy, you don't think well of him,

4 maybe you do some violence to him. Proceed further.


6 Q. Yes, well, the witness can express his

7 opinion. I am not asking a general opinion, I am

8 asking his own opinion. I believe that everybody is

9 very clear as to what this is all about.

10 A. I believe that, in general, if somebody is

11 accused of such a thing, he has nothing to do there.

12 JUDGE JAN: Please proceed further.


14 Q. Sir, since you were in touch with thousands

15 of such people, can you tell us where these refugees

16 were accommodated?

17 A. More than 20.s000 civilians, elderly, women

18 and children, came from Mount Igman in that period.

19 JUDGE JAN: You don't have to repeat the same

20 questions all over again.


22 Q. Mr. Demic, when Mr. Delalic left Konjic at

23 the end of 1992, are you a witness of even greater

24 propaganda against Mr. Delalic?

25 A. Yes, it was present, constantly. There was

Page 13741

1 also propaganda against Mr. Mucic. Even, it was said

2 that Mr. Delalic left the country via a helicopter of

3 the former JNA.

4 Q. Your Honour, these few questions which were

5 repeated were important because the Prosecutor showed

6 the Exhibit No. 116 as a true exhibit and I have no

7 more questions for the witness and I thank you for

8 the --

9 JUDGE JAN: (Microphone not on)

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: That was the tape on the war

11 on BH. We heard the witnesses, Cecez and in about

12 there, there is another part of the counter propaganda

13 material. And when you will be evaluating it, I think

14 that the witnesses and that their testimony will be of

15 use to you to evaluate the material.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are doing

17 more than cross examination, so I suppose you are

18 trying to fill up the gap. You could have done if he

19 came in -- this witness came in as your witness. That

20 is why I did not bother with the trend of your

21 cross-examination. So if you have cross-examined

22 sufficiently, you can then stop, but if you have not,

23 and you still think you can use the witness in the way

24 you could have if he was called by you, you can

25 conclude.

Page 13742

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, thank you for

2 that. But in order to clarify the situation as it was,

3 I would like to question the witness.

4 Q. Mr. Demic, is it true that I asked you to

5 testify in this case and that you have accepted to come

6 as a witness?

7 A. Yes, I would have come if anybody had invited

8 me.

9 Q. Is it also true, Mr. Demic, that from the

10 20th of May to the 19th of June, you were on a study

11 tour in the United States and at the time you were not

12 in a position to attend the Court hearing and to

13 present yourself here?

14 A. Yes, that's true.

15 Q. The footage that you have offered to me, and

16 particularly your original material is in your original

17 cassette, it is totally credible material?

18 A. It is at home, yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you, Mr. Demic. Thank

20 you, Your Honour, for giving me this opportunity for

21 examining the witness.

22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, can I point out

23 a point in the transcript on page 16, line 6, the

24 transcript reads "Cecez" and I believe my colleague,

25 Ms. Residovic, said Ciso, C-I-S-O.

Page 13743

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you. Let's hear

2 your --

3 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I

4 have a few questions.

5 Q. Sir, I am going to be asking you a series of

6 questions and if they call for a yes or no answer, I

7 would like you to just give a yes or no response, is

8 that understood?

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Kuzmanovic:

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can proceed.


13 Q. Sir, you'd mentioned that you came upon

14 Celebici, somewhat as a surprise; is that accurate?

15 A. Yes. The answer is yes.

16 Q. And when you came upon Celebici, can you

17 describe for the Court how far off the main road the

18 entrance to the Celebici barracks is?

19 A. Aerially, it's not a 100 metres. But if you

20 go by road, it's 250, 300 metres. There is a curve and

21 a cross-roads.

22 Q. And it's right next to the, basically right

23 next to the main road, correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You mean the location of the camp is fairly

Page 13744

1 close to the main road, 300 metres, roughly?

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Couldn't be that

3 close --

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. The answer is yes.


6 Q. You had never met Mr. Mucic prior to your

7 coming to Celebici, correct?

8 A. The answer is never before.

9 Q. How long did you spend speaking with Mr.

10 Mucic when you were at Celebici?

11 A. Four or five minutes. Because he then went

12 to the building, the premise.

13 Q. Had you --

14 A. We also said goodbye to each other when we

15 left.

16 Q. Was there anything specific that you spoke

17 with Mr. Mucic about other than generalities?

18 A. Generalities and we were joking. Mr. Mucic

19 was joking. I liked it because I had a feeling that I

20 would be able to do my job.

21 Q. So at least as far as you were concerned, you

22 had free access to anywhere you wanted to go? I didn't

23 get the translation on that.

24 JUDGE JAN: This question is asked yesterday

25 by mister --

Page 13745

1 --- (Kindly be advised microphone is not

2 activated)

3 JUDGE JAN: Counsel for Delic.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think his answer

5 hasn't been transcribed.

6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Have the answer to the

8 question. Now repeat the question.

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I will repeat the question,

10 Your Honour.

11 Q. So at least as far as you're concerned, you

12 had free access to anywhere you wanted to go?

13 A. Yes, absolutely.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, we are not

15 getting the Bosnian interpretation. Now I am getting

16 it.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

18 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'll continue, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You will continue.


21 Q. What time of day was it, sir, when you were

22 at the camp? Now, I'm sorry, Your Honours, I am not

23 getting any of the English.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Can the English booth be

25 heard? Yes. We have one microphone dead here in the

Page 13746

1 booth.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We still have one answer

3 missing. The answer to the time of the day he was at

4 the camp.

5 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I'll re-ask the question,

6 Your Honour.


8 THE WITNESS: I believe it was at noon. It

9 was very hot, but I cannot tell you exactly.


11 Q. The vehicle you were driving had a sign that

12 was marked "Press" on it?

13 A. Yes, with yellow letters.

14 Q. Was it in the windshield or was it on top of

15 the car, could you describe that for us?

16 A. On the forepart and on the windshield.

17 Q. So it would be obvious to anyone who you were

18 driving by or who would see your vehicle that you were

19 a member of the press?

20 A. Yes, and on the back there was also, instead

21 of a licence plate -- instead of a licence plate, we

22 had a "Press" sign on the car.

23 Q. The clothing that was worn by your -- by the

24 person who did the interviewing, Ms. Jadranka, correct,

25 she had a camouflage shirt on?

Page 13747

1 A. Yes, this was a gift from the General Major

2 Divjak.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Whether she had a

4 camouflage shirt on.

5 THE WITNESS: Because he had nothing else to

6 put on since she was a refugee.


8 Q. So it's fairly common for even members of the

9 press to wear camouflage shirts?

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually his answer

11 would have --

12 THE WITNESS: That was not common, but it was

13 of necessity. It was not common, but it was of

14 necessity.


16 Q. How, in terms of the -- I withdraw that

17 question.

18 Could you describe for us on the model, the

19 number of people that you saw when you were in Celebici

20 and where they were, other than the people in the

21 infirmary?

22 A. I believe that I encountered some,

23 approximately 20 people, in groups of two or three or

24 four, often. Mixed groups between guards and

25 prisoners. They were watering the lawn, the trees with

Page 13748

1 hoses. There was a puddle in front of the

2 administrative building. There was -- I remember these

3 puddles because the road was uneven with holes.

4 Q. If you could take the pointer that's next to

5 you, please, and just point out -- you've pointed with

6 your finger to the model, but if you could just point

7 out, generally, the area with the pointer, for the

8 benefit of the Court.

9 A. Here I talked to the brother, Zara's

10 brother. Here we have the puddles. Here a man was

11 washing an old car, Fiat feature. Here they had water

12 hoses. Zara's brother was there. And then Zara came

13 from that direction. And then under the awning here,

14 people were sitting and I didn't move further into the

15 camp.

16 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I have no further questions,

17 Your Honours, thank you.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is there any other

19 questions?

20 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honours, I have a

21 few brief questions, if I might?

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.

23 MS. McMURREY: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Demic, we met only met yesterday for the

25 first time after court in the Defence witness room; is

Page 13749

1 that right?

2 A. Yes, that's when we met.

3 Q. And by the way, I am Cynthia McMurrey, I

4 represent Esad Landzo. For clarification on the camp

5 at Celebici, I would like to ask you to stand up and

6 use the pointer again because I don't know that it's

7 clear. This -- can you point to where the entrance to

8 Celebici is, to the camp? And that is the entrance

9 that you're talking about was 250 to 300 metres away

10 from the main road, right?

11 A. Here we have the curve and then the main

12 road. But in aerial distance would be less. The

13 tunnel there --

14 Q. Now, that road that goes into Celebici goes

15 around this side of the camp and ends on M-17 at that

16 end, doesn't it? M-17, the road between Konjic and

17 Jablanica?

18 A. Yes, M-7 (sic), Mostar.

19 Q. And that main highway runs parallel to the

20 end of the Celebici camp; is that correct? In fact,

21 part of that road runs along that end of the camp going

22 that way to Jablanica and that way to Konjic; would

23 that be accurate? So this end of the camp is 250 to

24 300 metres from the main road, but that end of the camp

25 is directly on the main road, isn't it?

Page 13750

1 A. Absolutely. That is why I said the aerial

2 distance would be less. Precisely for that reason.

3 Q. I just wanted the Court to be clear that the

4 camp itself is actually on the main road, part of it,

5 just not the entrance. And, also, I would like to

6 play --

7 A. That was not a camp, these were barracks.

8 Q. I'm sorry, you're absolutely right, the

9 Celebici barracks. In fact, when you're standing at

10 that end of the camp, you're looking onto the road to

11 Mostar and another tunnel that goes on to Jablanica; is

12 that correct?

13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is nodding his

14 head.

15 MS. McMURREY: Thank you. You do have to

16 answer "yes". Thank you. So that these --

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, absolutely, yes.


19 Q. Okay. Thank you.

20 At this point, Your Honour, I would like to

21 play an excerpt of a tape and ask Mr. Demic if he can

22 recognise it, please.

23 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I am going to

24 object. At approximately two minutes before ten, Mrs.

25 McMurrey gave me copies of the transcript regarding the

Page 13751

1 videotape she wants to show. And they're all

2 interviews with, it appears, refugees, about various

3 things that happened. They have nothing to do with

4 Konjic and they have nothing to do with Celebici.

5 They're just people talking about horrible things that

6 happened to them in the war. Then I would object as to

7 the relevancy.

8 MS. McMURREY: And, Your Honours, if I may

9 respond? At this point, as Madam Residovic also, to

10 preclude the necessity of recalling this witness at

11 another time. I am not asking to introduce these tapes

12 into evidence at this point. I only would like for Mr.

13 Demic to authenticate them. He made these tapes. He

14 is the videographer. And at the time that the Defence

15 puts on its case, I will show the relevance of these

16 tapes at that point. And to prevent him from having to

17 return, all I want to do is authenticate the tapes and

18 I will attempt to offer them into evidence once the

19 relevancy has been determined.

20 But contrary to what Ms. McHenry said, these

21 were tapes made in Konjic, in the Konjic municipality,

22 in April, May, June of 1992. And for the Defence of

23 Mr. Landzo, the state of mind of Mr. Landzo, and the

24 people in the Konjic area is relevant to the Defence of

25 diminished mental capacity. I am not going to try to

Page 13752

1 introduce them into evidence at this time. I merely

2 want to try to authenticate them through this witness.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, his evidence is

4 related to his experience and the tapes he made in

5 respect of Celebici.

6 MS. McMURREY: This evidence are tapes that

7 he --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you let me

9 finish?

10 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, I thought you were.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, is this tape part

12 of that exercise of his interviews with persons in the

13 Celebici camp?

14 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, it's

15 interviews of people in the Konjic municipality at the

16 time.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because I don't see the

18 relevancy to it in what he has made.

19 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, the relevance

20 will be established in the defence of diminished mental

21 capacity. It goes to the state of mind of Mr. Landzo

22 at the time of April, May, June of 1992. What the

23 people of Konjic were told and why they were so

24 petrified and panicked and afraid --

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think it is

Page 13753

1 relevant to his evidence and even the defence of

2 diminished responsibility. That is always evidence

3 based on medical evidence. And, you know, I think it

4 will not be admissible.

5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I just want to --

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have any other

7 questions to ask, please, go ahead.

8 MS. McMURREY: I only want him to

9 authenticate and reserve a ruling on relevance until

10 after the Defence has put his case on. But if the

11 Court wants me to authenticate it at another time, once

12 the relevance has been determined, then I'll be happy

13 to attempt to call him back at that point.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Only introduce the

15 evidence of mental, whichever way you want to talk

16 about is his disability. We'll determine whether such

17 a thing is relevant at all.

18 JUDGE JAN: Just a minute. You're probably

19 taking the plea of provocation.

20 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, it's not

21 provocation. It goes to his state of mind, his mental

22 capacity at the time. This is relevant. These videos

23 were April, May, June of 1992. What people had told

24 him, what he was experiencing in the Konjic area in

25 1992. I feel that -- of course, I can't establish the

Page 13754

1 relevance at this point, I merely wanted to

2 authenticate that this man produced them. That they're

3 accurate reconstructions of the evidence that he saw

4 and he produced in 1992. I don't have to have an

5 interpretation of them. I merely wanted to

6 authenticate them at this point and reserve evidence

7 until later.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My advice to you,

9 please, is to study properly the scope, the basis of

10 diminished responsibility. It will later arise from

11 mental disease or defects or congenital defects

12 developing from arrested or retarded development. So I

13 do not see how any of these things could have arisen

14 from whatever propaganda which was dished out at that

15 time.

16 So, I have not heard your arguments. When

17 you bring up your argument with respect to the time of

18 facts you rely for your retarded, arrested developments

19 of mental disease, we will consider it. These are the

20 only basis of diminished responsibility.

21 MS. McMURREY: Well, since I didn't have a

22 definition to go from, I am assuming that the

23 definition that the Court just gave me is the one that

24 I am working from at this point, which would be the

25 Homicide Act of 1957.

Page 13755

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Court has so many

2 psychoanalytical publications on this type of defect.

3 You can read them widely. If you've already pleaded

4 the Defence, and you read them, and make your

5 submissions to the Trial Chamber in accordance with the

6 known accepted basis of diminished responsibility.

7 MS. McMURREY: And it also says in the

8 parenthesis in that, that an abnormality of the mind

9 from any cause --

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Arising from mental

11 disease or retarded, arrested development.

12 MS. McMURREY: Right. And it's our

13 submission to this Court that the irritation of the

14 mental disease by the --

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We are not arguing that

16 now.

17 MS. McMURREY: I am not. I was only asking

18 to authenticate the case, but if the Court will not let

19 me authenticate them, then I have no recourse but I

20 pass the witness, Your Honours. Thank you.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, Mrs. McHenry, you

22 may continue.

23 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours

24 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:

25 Q. Good morning, sir.

Page 13756

1 A. Good morning to you.

2 Q. Now, I am going to be asking you some

3 questions. If you don't understand a question, please

4 just indicate that and I will repeat or rephrase it. I

5 would also just --

6 JUDGE JAN: May I also remind you that you

7 will not be paid by the number of words you use.

8 THE WITNESS: I understand, yes.


10 Q. And in that regard, sir, I will try to make a

11 number of my questions "yes" or "no" questions for

12 you. Sir, was there a prison in Celebici?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And what would you call that where the

15 prisoners were kept, that part of the barracks? You

16 said it wasn't a camp, just what was it where the

17 prisoners were kept?

18 A. I must tell you that when concerning Bosnia,

19 you cannot rely on encyclopaedias. I was a witness when

20 the aggression on Bosnia started. The first prisoners,

21 that is the armed Serb rebels, were being kept in

22 schools where the soldiers of the armed forces were

23 also sleeping. They were looking for places where they

24 were not -- where they would not be together. And I

25 know for certain when somebody would say, oh, let's put

Page 13757

1 them over there because that would be good. It would

2 be a convenient place. And this was a barracks. This

3 would be ideal conditions, you know. It was fenced

4 off. And then also it was made to regulation by the

5 former JNA and so on.

6 Q. So, it wasn't -- you couldn't call it a

7 prison and you couldn't call it a camp; is that your

8 testimony?

9 A. I am not competent to say that. I am just a

10 journalist. To, you know, give it any designation that

11 is.

12 Q. You would agree that there were prisoners

13 there, wouldn't you?

14 A. Yes, I would agree with that.

15 Q. Thank you. Before the interview, that you

16 had with Mr. Delalic about Celebici, did Mrs.

17 Milosevic, your colleague, did she know Mr. Delalic?

18 A. Yes, as I said, I met him at a social club.

19 I was talking to my friends and he walked by. We

20 talked and also I saw him later.

21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did your colleague know

22 Mr. Delalic? Did she know him?

23 THE WITNESS: Not until then. Not until the

24 interview.


Page 13758

1 Q. It's your testimony that the very first time

2 that Mrs. Milosevic --

3 A. No, I got the interpretation whether I had

4 known him. That is what I reserved as interpretation,

5 so I apologise.

6 Q. So according to your knowledge, the first

7 time that Mrs. Milosevic met Mr. Delalic was with you

8 during the interview about Celebici? Is that correct?

9 A. I don't know that. She also went without

10 me. There were times when she travelled on her -- I

11 don't know why this is important, but I cannot confirm

12 that. I cannot say when, because when I first met him

13 I was by myself.

14 Q. Sir, if you don't know the answer to a

15 question, all you have to do is say, "I don't know."

16 You don't have to explain.

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Sir, when was your report on Celebici

19 broadcast on Sarajevo TV?

20 A. That same -- the evening of the day when we

21 first taped it.

22 Q. Now, you stated in direct that the interview

23 with Mr. Delalic about Celebici occurred before the

24 swearing in at Celebici. Are you sure that the

25 interview about Celebici was before the swearing in

Page 13759

1 that occurred in Celebici, or could have been after?

2 A. Absolutely.

3 Q. So if Mrs. Milosevic has reported that she

4 believed the visit occurred on the 20th or 21st of

5 August, would that be possible, or would that be

6 impossible?

7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I object. That's

8 impeaching this witness with the statement of somebody

9 else.

10 MS. McHENRY: I'm asking him a question about

11 a date.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think there was an

13 effort to correct the date in his answers.

14 MS. McHENRY: Yes. I believe earlier it was

15 brought out that he had earlier given a different date,

16 and now I am asking whether or not it's possible that

17 it could have occurred on the 20th or 21st of August.

18 A. I cannot answer this question in an exact

19 way. Jadranka could have made a mistake or I could

20 have made a mistake, but the videotape is authentic and

21 the date is printed there. So that is not a lie, the

22 date there.

23 Q. I'm sorry, where exactly is the date

24 imprinted? When you see the video, is the date

25 imprinted on the video that you see?

Page 13760

1 A. The date could see -- if the camera has

2 imprinted it, it's in the lower right corner, but it's

3 -- because it was put in the archive when it was first

4 broadcast, so it would have borne the date when it was

5 broadcast on television.

6 Q. So if the video doesn't have a date on it

7 itself, the only thing you could look at is the

8 archives to see when it was broadcast; is that correct?

9 A. It can also be verified on the cassette which

10 had an accompanying sheet of paper, which had given the

11 times and which my colleague, Jadranka, made. Also,

12 our colleague, Zekira, who was a secretary probably,

13 put together that list. Yes, her name is Zekira

14 Topalovic. So that can be verified.

15 Q. But you would agree with me now that your

16 earlier testimony that the date was imprinted on the

17 videotape was a mistake?

18 JUDGE JAN: He doesn't say that. He said he

19 can verify it from other sources also.

20 MS. McHENRY: Yes, but I am trying to find

21 out if the most direct source, if it's on the tape or

22 not. And he initially said it was. If I understood

23 him correctly now, he says it's not on the tape, and I

24 am just trying to verify which of those two things is

25 correct.

Page 13761

1 JUDGE JAN: Have you said it is not on the

2 tape?

3 A. Yes.


5 Q. Now, you stated that you had heard about

6 Celebici from Pale Radio. Were you in a position to

7 hear Pale Radio because of your profession or special

8 occasion, or could any person in Konjic with a radio

9 hear the Pale broadcast?

10 A. From time to time, I also listened to Pale.

11 I listened to other stations as well, of course, when I

12 was in a position to do so. That is normal thing.

13 Q. The exact question was, were radio broadcasts

14 from Pale available in Konjic?

15 A. Yes, they were available. And I believe that

16 they could be heard quite well.

17 Q. Now, did you hear any reports on -- about the

18 Musala prison in Konjic on Pale Radio or just about

19 Celebici?

20 A. I heard of Celebici and, as far as Musala is

21 concerned, I believe I did not. I don't recall, but I

22 did know about Musala as well, that a number of

23 prisoners were there. As I said before, it was -- they

24 were kept in schools, sports halls, et cetera.

25 Q. Let me just remind you that often I think

Page 13762

1 your explanation is just going to delay things. So if

2 you can answer my question simply, that's all you have

3 to do.

4 Now, you indicated that --

5 A. My desire is only to be more clear, so that

6 we avoid any misunderstandings. That's all.

7 Q. Now, you said that the Serb public radio

8 broadcast false propaganda. Was it only the Serb side

9 that broadcast false propaganda, or did all sides, the

10 Serb, the Croat, and the Muslim, publicise false

11 propaganda?

12 A. I can only guarantee for my own work, but in

13 a different degree there were -- there was propaganda.

14 The question is only of degree.

15 Q. Now, before you went to Celebici, you had

16 talked with Mr. Delalic about your desire to visit

17 Celebici, hadn't you?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: This question has already

19 been answered.

20 A. I have already answered this question, and I

21 believe that this was linked to my desire to visit

22 Celebici, to verify the information. There was no

23 insisting on it, just my desire.


25 Q. If I understand you correctly, then, you

Page 13763

1 agree with me that prior to visiting Celebici you had

2 talked to Mr. Delalic about your desire to visit the

3 camp, the barracks?

4 A. I cannot agree with you the way you put the

5 question. If you can rephrase the question. There are

6 parts where I can say "yes," and there are parts of it

7 where I would say "no."

8 Q. You, before the time you went to Celebici,

9 you and Mr. Delalic had a conversation in which you

10 indicated that you wanted to go visit Celebici; is that

11 correct or incorrect?

12 A. Incorrect.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the position?

14 What is the correct position?

15 A. The correct position is that it is possible

16 that it was -- that Mr. Delalic was there when I was

17 talking in a circle of friends and acquaintances that I

18 would like to visit the prison, but I do not exclude

19 the possibility that he was present there. I don't

20 know that he was not there. So he may have heard it

21 also. So that is the truth.


23 Q. Let me see if I can refresh your

24 recollection, sir. Did you previously state, "Some

25 days after the fall of Bradina I met Zejnil Delalic for

Page 13764

1 the first time. Since I had heard the stories of the

2 food supply in Konjic, I told Mr. Delalic about what I

3 had heard, to see his reaction."

4 And you are here referring to the problems of

5 food in Celebici.

6 "I mentioned to him that I wanted to go to

7 the barracks to find out what was going on. He was in

8 favour of it."

9 Do you remember saying that in your prior

10 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?

11 A. There are some elements there which I had

12 mentioned here before. I recollect, absolutely, a

13 statement of his, and it's vividly in my mind. I told

14 him that the fighters were complaining as to why the

15 prisoners were given more than they were, and he was

16 accused as a logistics person who was in charge of

17 supplying the food. And he said, "We must not be like

18 they are. So that we should be better than them. We

19 have to be better than them. We cannot be like Serbs

20 or Chetniks." I don't know exactly what he said, but I

21 absolutely recall him making that statement. That is

22 something that has stayed in my mind as something

23 characteristic.

24 Q. So you certainly agree that you had a

25 conversation with Mr. Delalic about the food problems

Page 13765

1 in Celebici before you went there; is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. And do you then remember going -- also

4 stating, "I mentioned to him that I wanted to go to the

5 barracks to find out what was going on. He was in

6 favour of it." Do you remember stating that?

7 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse

8 me just a second. It would be a little fairer to the

9 witness to provide him with a copy of this statement.

10 I have one somewhere around here in Bosnian.

11 MS. McHENRY: That's fine. I have a number

12 of copies that I am happy now to provide.

13 Q. Sir, would it help you to look at your prior

14 statement?

15 A. Absolutely. Of course. Why not.

16 Q. Now, in fact, while that statement is being

17 marked, sir, let me ask you: You mentioned yesterday

18 the interview with Ms. Manke of the Office of the

19 Prosecutor, and said you weren't really prepared for

20 it. You would agree with me that at the time you gave

21 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you had

22 already been interviewed and given a statement to the

23 Defence?

24 A. Yes, and it was a very short statement. And

25 I was not straining myself in any way. Just as I have

Page 13766

1 not strained myself when I came here. I didn't even

2 bother with the videotapes. I can describe every

3 person there, but may not remember all the names.

4 Q. Let me go on, sir. Before you look at your

5 statement, I'll point out to you and ask you just a few

6 other questions about that.

7 Now, the interview with Ms. Manke was

8 scheduled in advance, wasn't it? I mean, there was an

9 appointment in advance and you then went to the offices

10 of the Tribunal in Sarajevo?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the interview, in fact, took place over

13 two days, on both the 19th and the 22nd of October,

14 1996; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, we talked for two days. That's correct.

16 Q. And at the time of the interview you knew

17 that there were ongoing procedures before the Tribunal,

18 and indeed you knew that some persons had been

19 arrested?

20 A. Yes, I knew that.

21 Q. And you would agree with me that you

22 understood that it was important for the information

23 you gave in your signed statement to be truthful and

24 accurate, to the best of your ability?

25 A. Yes. However, I did not have the time to

Page 13767

1 refresh my memory or do anything. But if you want me

2 to tell you, we talked more about the beginning of the

3 aggression, about Prijedor, about the statement of

4 Karic in the assembly and things in general.

5 Q. And at the end of the interview, the

6 statement was read out to you and you signed it as

7 being true and accurate, to the best of your knowledge;

8 is that also correct?

9 A. Yes, I did sign it.

10 Q. And, in fact, the document that you've been

11 shown, does it show your signature on it?

12 Does the witness have both the English and

13 the Serbo-Croatian?

14 A. Yes, it does have it, but I don't see the

15 signature.

16 Q. Well, if you look at the English version,

17 sir. It's on page 6 of the English version.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that your signature, sir?

20 A. This on the front page is, yes.

21 Q. And on page 6 of the English version.

22 A. Page 6 of the English version. Just a

23 moment. No. Oh, yes, up there. Yes. Yes, it is.

24 I'm sorry. I apologise.

25 Q. And I want to go -- I can only tell you in

Page 13768

1 the English -- on the English version it's on page 2,

2 the first full page of text, and there's a paragraph

3 that starts off, "Some days after the fall of Bradina

4 --"

5 A. My English is not very good.

6 Q. If you could look at the Serbo-Croatian

7 version and find -- or maybe Ms. Residovic is going to

8 help us. The paragraph that begins -- it's the fourth

9 paragraph in your statement and it starts off, "Some

10 days after the fall of Bradina I met Zejnil Delalic for

11 the first time --"

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, to be helpful. I

13 think it's the last paragraph on the first page of the

14 Bosnian translation.

15 JUDGE JAN: The last sentence is very

16 meaningful.


18 Q. I want to direct you to the last sentence,

19 sir. Did you say, "I mentioned to him that I wanted to

20 go to the barracks to find out what was going on. He

21 was in favour of it and said that he hoped that 'we,'

22 being from state TV, would be allowed to enter the

23 barracks." Is that what you said in your prior

24 statement, sir?

25 A. Not in this form. But there are some

Page 13769

1 elements here.

2 Q. Okay. Well, let me just ask you, sir, does

3 this remind you --

4 A. It also says here -- yes, it is true that

5 this was in front of the cultural hall that we saw each

6 other, because, you know that your colleague, Sabine,

7 she can rephrase the sentence and she would dictate it

8 to the person who is taking down the record.

9 JUDGE JAN: There is one thing I want to find

10 out. Delalic --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

12 please.

13 JUDGE JAN: Delalic's reply is that he hoped

14 that he, being from the state TV, would be allowed. If

15 he is himself, the commander --

16 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I certainly would

17 ask the witness any questions about that, but because

18 the witness doesn't remember ever making that, I don't

19 see how I am going to ask him any questions about

20 that.

21 Q. Is it still the case, sir, you don't remember

22 whether or not you and Mr. Delalic specifically

23 discussed the fact you wished to visit Celebici?

24 A. I don't recall every detail. And I said the

25 way I said it. But this could be a provocation, just

Page 13770

1 like in the movie. It's a kind of a likeable

2 provocation.

3 Q. Let me just go on. Now, you would agree --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me clear something.

5 Did you ask Delalic for permission to go into the

6 camp?

7 A. No. Expressly not.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.


10 Q. Am I correct that you stated yesterday that

11 you didn't ask anyone permission to go to Celebici,

12 until you got -- until you actually got to the camp; is

13 that correct?

14 A. Absolutely correct.

15 Q. Let me ask you, sir, do you recollect, and I

16 have copies of it, if you -- if you wish, saying to a

17 representative of the Defence that although -- excuse

18 me. Let me just find this. "I do not remember who we

19 talked to about permission, but I know it was --" you

20 are talking about the problems about what you heard

21 about the food. "This made us go to Celebici to find

22 out and publicise the truth. I do not remember who we

23 talked to about permission, but I know that it was

24 granted for the visit and the filming."

25 Is that correct?

Page 13771

1 A. In other words, we received the permission

2 when -- if we showed up at the prison, or the barracks,

3 however you decide to call it. So when I answered the

4 question a moment ago, I was talking to a number of

5 people there, and you need to know that it is very

6 difficult to say -- it was very difficult there to say

7 who was in charge, because everybody was vain, and if

8 you were to say that somebody was subordinate to

9 someone else, that would have been very hard. You

10 know, this is not a textbook. This was just

11 circumstances.

12 Q. Let me move forward, sir. You described

13 seeing, when you arrived at Celebici, a young guard and

14 then Mr. Delic. It's correct, isn't it, that because

15 of the interaction you saw between the young guard and

16 Mr. Delic --

17 A. A senior guard, and then I knew that it was

18 Mr. Delic later.

19 Q. Okay. And it's correct, because of the

20 interaction you saw between this young guard and the

21 person you identified in court here today, you assumed

22 that Mr. Delic was a young man superior, didn't you?

23 A. I could assume, but, you know, what

24 importance I placed to that as a journalist, none. It

25 didn't matter at all from -- as far as my entering the

Page 13772

1 camp is concerned.

2 Q. Sir, you answered the question as "yes"; is

3 that correct?

4 A. I could not answer that question for sure.

5 As an assumption, yes, but not as certainty.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you indicated where you

7 filmed. If Jadranka Milosevic reported that Pavo

8 indicated you could film the infirmary and that the

9 prisoners would be brought to you, and you would not be

10 permitted to film wherever you wanted, would that be

11 consistent or inconsistent with your recollection?

12 A. We could film whatever we wanted to, and this

13 is what we did. We filmed the infirmary too. If there

14 was -- if it had been forbidden, I don't know how I

15 could have filmed the infirmary.

16 Q. Okay. I think there may have been a slight

17 translation error there, but I don't think it's

18 important enough. Let me move forward.

19 Sir, were you aware that prisoners were kept

20 in a tunnel in Celebici barracks?

21 A. I did not know that.

22 Q. And besides the infirmary, did you make any

23 request to view the areas where the prisoners were

24 kept, besides the infirmary?

25 A. No, we did not. We saw a lot of them

Page 13773

1 outside, and we heard the one who was the most

2 prominent among them, we heard the ones who distributed

3 food, we heard the doctors, and we talked to those who

4 were injured, who were in the infirmary.

5 Q. Sir, I understand that, and I am not going to

6 be asking you here, with rare exception, to repeat what

7 you said yesterday. So if the answer is a simple no,

8 you don't have to explain it by repeating what you've

9 already said.

10 Now, at any time when you were in Celebici,

11 did you see Pavo with a video camera of his own?

12 A. No, never.

13 Q. And how about when you were at the swearing

14 in, did you see Mr. Mucic at that time?

15 A. I cannot recall. I did see Mr. Delalic.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Because he spoke to those assembled. I

18 really don't recall about Mucic.

19 Q. Now, the time that you were in Celebici about

20 the prisoners, you indicated that Mucic came in and out

21 of the administration building. Did you ever go in the

22 administration building to say good-bye or for any

23 reason?

24 A. No. The door was wide open. We greeted each

25 other outside and we said good-bye to each other

Page 13774

1 outside. We thanked them and we left.

2 Q. So let me just clarify. When you indicated

3 that it was too warm to sit inside the administration

4 building, that was just an assumption you made because

5 of the heat, not because you yourself felt how warm it

6 was inside there?

7 A. Yes, that's an assumption. I saw that the

8 door was opened.

9 Q. Now, before your interview with the doctors

10 in the barracks, did anyone have the opportunity to

11 talk with them about the subject of their testimony?

12 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I am going to object to the

13 form of the question, saying that what the doctor said

14 was testimony. I don't believe that what the doctor

15 said was testimony.

16 MS. McHENRY: I'd say there was an

17 interpretation --

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Are you correcting the

19 interpretation or the question?

20 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, the question,

21 as interpreted, perhaps, stated that what the doctor

22 said on the videotape was testimony, and my question

23 was to the form of the question. If it was an

24 interpretation problem, then we'll have to deal with it

25 that way.

Page 13775

1 MR. MORAN: It couldn't be an interpretation

2 problem from English to English. I mean, we don't do

3 that too. The word she used was "testimony".

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, I think there was

5 no confusion in your question. There is none. Can you

6 give an answer, whether you saw anyone who was being

7 questioned?

8 A. No, no one. Really, I did not.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Now, I think the Trial

10 Chamber will rise and reassemble at noon.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.08 p.m.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, you may

14 continue.


16 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Tell the witness he is

18 still on his oath.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Demic, may I remind you

20 that you are still under oath.



23 Q. Sir, immediately before the break, you

24 indicated that no one had the opportunity to talk with

25 the doctors about the subject of their interview before

Page 13776

1 you started talking to them. So is it correct that if

2 both the doctors and Mr. Delalic have said that before

3 the filming of your interview, Mr. Delalic talked to

4 the doctors about their interview, they would all be

5 incorrect?

6 A. Incorrect. At least as far as I know that is

7 incorrect. And on that day, it was just we who talked

8 to the doctors.

9 Q. And it was just by chance that you decided to

10 stop by. So if I understand you correctly, according

11 to your testimony, it wouldn't have been possible for

12 anyone to talk to the doctors beforehand?

13 JUDGE JAN: How can he say that? What might

14 have been possible? How can he say that? It would not

15 have been possible.

16 MS. McHENRY: Well, if he said --

17 Q. Is it the case that you stopped by just by

18 chance?

19 A. Absolutely. In Ostrozac, we decided to try

20 our luck. I don't see why you're asking such imprecise

21 questions. I prefer these questions of (inaudible). I

22 can't believe that your questions are so imprecise and

23 they're not logical. I apologise, but that's the way

24 it is.

25 JUDGE JAN: But you're not to say anything

Page 13777

1 about the quality of questions. Counsel is a very

2 experienced counsel and she knows what she's asking.

3 THE WITNESS: I am in an embarrassing

4 situation.

5 JUDGE JAN: You can say it's imprecise, but

6 be please more careful. But please don't comment on

7 the quality of the questions.

8 THE WITNESS: I apologise, Your Honour.


10 Q. In any conversation you had with Mr. Delalic,

11 prior to your interview in Celebici, did you ask him to

12 talk to the doctors on your behalf?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, you were told by Pavo that the reason

15 the doctors had been imprisoned was because they had

16 treated wounded Serbs; is that correct?

17 A. Well, he didn't tell me that.

18 Q. May I ask that you look at your statement

19 again, the statement that you gave to the office of the

20 Prosecutor. And I am referring to page 3 in English

21 and there is a paragraph that begins, when you're

22 talking about when you first got to Celebici, "The camp

23 manager, a balding man, came out and introduced himself

24 as Pavo." Can you find that paragraph for me, please,

25 in the Bosnian version. I'm sorry, that's actually the

Page 13778

1 wrong paragraph. Let me just find -- let me move on,

2 sir, while I find that later on.

3 Now, sir, the prisoners that you interviewed,

4 they knew you were with Bosnian State Television; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes, because we introduced ourselves.

7 Q. Okay. And at that time, did you believe that

8 even if the prisoners were being mistreated, they would

9 be in a position to tell a reporter from Bosnian State

10 Television about it?

11 A. They talked completely freely. And even the

12 doctor, he wanted to add something and we aired that.

13 We wanted to do that and aired it because we knew that

14 also the doctors initially were there as prisoners.

15 Q. And had the prisoners, if the prisoners had

16 told you that they were being mistreated, would you

17 have broadcast that? Or let me ask it a different

18 way. Did you tell the prisoners that if they told you

19 that they'd been mistreated, you would not broadcast

20 it?

21 A. I didn't say that. I didn't tell them that,

22 but I'll answer your first question. Namely, I would

23 send that by link to the Bosnian and Herzegovina

24 television. I don't know whether they would air it,

25 but I would send it. I am a reporter.

Page 13779

1 Q. And would you agree with me that, at that

2 time, if the prisoners -- they could have suffered some

3 adverse consequences, had a negative report been

4 publicised while they were still in prison?

5 JUDGE JAN: Why don't you ask the question

6 directly? They would have been punished if they would

7 have spoken the truth. Ask the question directly.

8 MS. McHENRY: I actually think it's a matter

9 of common sense, so let me just move forward.

10 JUDGE JAN: He does not have the same level

11 of common sense as you have.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ms. McHenry, it depends

13 on what you regard as truth.


15 Q. Sir, did it occur to you that at the time you

16 were interviewing them, that if it was publicised that

17 the prisoners were being mistreated, that it would have

18 negative consequences for them?

19 JUDGE JAN: For the prisoners.


21 Q. For the prisoners?

22 A. I didn't consider that. They were alone. It

23 was up to them to tell me. You could see in the film

24 that nobody was standing nearby while the prisoners

25 were talking to us. Once more, Jadranka Milosevic was

Page 13780

1 asking the questions on the basis of the previous

2 answers and linking them up. He said they were wounded

3 and then she asked, wounded by what? That's logical.

4 Q. You would also agree with me, sir, that it's

5 logical that even if no one was there when the

6 prisoners were answering you, the prisoners would have

7 known that their answers would have been published,

8 would be broadcast?

9 MR. KUZMANOVIC: Your Honour, I am just going

10 to object to that. That's speculative. You're asking

11 this witness to guess as to what the prisoners would

12 think or say.

13 JUDGE JAN: It's a question for argument,

14 rather than of fact.

15 MS. McHENRY: Let me move on.

16 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me that even

17 then you realised that the prisoner who was in charge

18 of the distribution of food would be likely to be well

19 fed and, in fact, you made a joke about it?

20 A. Well, believe me, I didn't have the time to

21 consider these aspects.

22 Q. Excuse me for one minute. Sir, I am going to

23 direct your attention to your prior statement and I am

24 referring to page 4, at least of the English, a

25 paragraph that begins, "Subsequently, Jadranka was

Page 13781

1 interested to talk to the man who was in charge of

2 distribution of food." And your statement then says,

3 "He was well fed, so I joked that one can see that he

4 was in charge of food."

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is your question?


7 Q. My question -- well, he already said that he

8 did not do this. So my question is, does he remember

9 saying that in your statement to the office of the

10 Prosecutor?

11 A. I didn't understand the question.

12 Q. Well, I understood you to say that you did

13 not consider then that the prisoner who was in charge

14 of food would be likely to be well fed and you did not

15 make a joke about it. And so I am asking you whether

16 or not you now remember saying that to the office of

17 the Prosecutor?

18 A. After the -- we had a relaxed conversation

19 with Madam Sabine. We talked for two days. And the

20 result of that conversation was this: I believe I

21 remember that I said that I joked about it because the

22 man looked pretty well. That was the atmosphere, I

23 could make a joke. They didn't tell us that there were

24 any strict rules about our behaviour. It was

25 informal.

Page 13782

1 Q. Now, sir, the video that you were shown

2 yesterday showing your interview in Celebici, was that

3 the entire uncut version of your visit to Celebici or

4 are there parts that were not shown yesterday here?

5 A. You'll have to first shoot the material, but

6 then, because for reasons of continuity, you have to

7 edit it then. You have first, then, entire raw footage

8 and we had, I don't know how many minutes, and then you

9 have to reduce it to two minutes.

10 Q. Sir, I did not ask you about your process of

11 editing. My question is just, I understand that there

12 was an edited version and there is an unedited

13 version. My question is, is what we saw in court

14 yesterday, is that the entire unedited version of your

15 visit to Celebici or are there other parts of it that

16 were not shown yesterday?

17 A. That was raw footage. It was broadcast on

18 the air, a shorter version, where some scenes were left

19 out.

20 Q. Was what -- the raw footage we saw yesterday,

21 was that the entire raw footage? Everything that there

22 is?

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I thought he had just

24 said some scenes are left out.

25 MS. McHENRY: He said some scenes were left

Page 13783

1 out from the broadcast version on television, which I

2 understand. And I also understand that what we saw

3 yesterday was raw footage. My question is, are there

4 other parts of raw footage that exist that we did not

5 see yesterday?

6 A. No.

7 Q. I take it then --

8 A. I apologise. We had also the filming of the

9 Delalic statement, which was subsequently shot and

10 which was added to it. After Celebici, it was shot

11 after Celebici.

12 Q. And you would agree with me that there were

13 parts of your visit to Celebici, including parts of the

14 conversations you had with the detainees, that were not

15 recorded?

16 A. What do you mean?

17 Q. Well, I am just clarifying or just -- that

18 you did not videotape the whole time you were there at

19 Celebici and you did not videotape all of your

20 conversations with the detainees? I am not criticising

21 you for it, I am just clarifying that.

22 A. Well, who would do that all the time? Can

23 you imagine the batteries, the tapes, the

24 improvisations, the entering, the exit?

25 Q. If the answer to the question is "yes," then

Page 13784

1 say "yes".

2 A. I am not experiencing this as a criticism,

3 but I am surprised at the question.

4 Q. Well, I think maybe you should not worry

5 about being surprised by the questions. You should

6 just answer "yes" or "no" when it's possible to do so.

7 A. Well, it's very difficult to give a "yes" or

8 "no" answer to such questions.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Demic, you know, the

10 counsel was not there whenever these things happened.

11 She's only reading from reports and imagines what may

12 have happened. So it's possible that her questions,

13 which you may think that, are not realistic. But to be

14 better informed, she would ask those questions so that

15 you who have actually undertaken the exercise will

16 explain what all there is about.

17 JUDGE JAN: And the question is very simple.

18 THE WITNESS: Believe me, Your Honour, I am

19 bearing this in mind because what we're speaking about,

20 one has to experience it. And the Prosecutor didn't

21 experience it, I did. Believe me, I am taking this

22 into account. I --

23 JUDGE JAN: The question is very simple.

24 She's asking you that, did you interview some

25 prisoners? And the interviews do not appear on the

Page 13785

1 tape which you prepared. She's asking you a simple

2 question.

3 THE WITNESS: No, no, we had private talks,

4 but that's different.

5 JUDGE JAN: So they were not --

6 THE WITNESS: Not in front of the

7 microphone. That's something -- that's something

8 else.


10 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that when you

11 interviewed and videotaped Zara and the prisoner who

12 distributed the food, you interviewed them at the same

13 time, rather than private?

14 A. What do you mean by that?

15 Q. They were both present. When you were

16 filming Mr. Zara and the prisoner who distributed food,

17 they were all -- the two prisoners were present

18 together?

19 A. They were standing side by side. You can see

20 that on the footage. But prior to that, I did talk to

21 Zara privately.

22 Q. Now, you testified, if I understood you

23 correctly, that you knew that Zara was wealthy and a

24 logistics officer for the Serb forces; is that

25 correct? If you could just say "yes".

Page 13786

1 A. Yes, and many knew of that fact.

2 Q. And was it your understanding that he had

3 power and influence because of his wealth and position?

4 A. Well, that was quite obvious.

5 Q. And did you believe -- continuing with Zara

6 -- that Zara might, because of his money, power or

7 influence, have a special position in the camp?

8 A. On the contrary, I assumed that due to his

9 activities he might have bigger problems in the camp.

10 Q. Well, would you agree with me, sir, that you,

11 you think that Zara was ultimately able to buy his way

12 out of the Celebici prison?

13 A. I don't know whether that was possible. I --

14 later on it turned out that some people did go out in

15 certain ways, that they were being freed from the

16 centre. But these were just stories we heard.

17 Q. Well, sir, would you agree with me that

18 previously you've talked about rumours that prisoners

19 paid for their release and you then go on to say, "I

20 think that Zara and the two doctors, as well as many

21 others disappeared that way." So my question is --

22 A. Yes, people did disappear. Later on we saw

23 them on the Serb station. At the time they didn't

24 speak how they went, but we heard stories, rumours,

25 that they paid their way to be led over Kresevo onto

Page 13787

1 the other side.

2 Q. And is it now correct that you think that

3 Zara paid his way out of Celebici?

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: I object to that, Your

5 Honour. That's just sheer speculation.

6 MS. McHENRY: Well, I am quoting from the

7 witness.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Read out the portion

9 which is such as that.

10 MS. McHENRY: Okay.

11 Q. Sir, I am referring, just if you want to look

12 at it, to the very last paragraph in your statement.

13 And you say, "I heard rumours that prisoners in

14 Celebici disappeared. According to the rumours --"

15 Well, let me read the whole thing then.

16 "They emerged a little later on SRNA

17 television and told their stories. According to the

18 rumours, the prisoners or their families paid for their

19 release. They changed sides through Kresevo, Kiseljak

20 and Kobiljaca. The rumour also said that Pavo Mucic,

21 as prison commander, and Zejnil Delalic, as a person of

22 good connection with KOS, were in charge of those

23 activities. I think that Zara and the two doctors, as

24 well as many others, disappeared that way."

25 And so my question is, do you think that Zara

Page 13788

1 was able to pay his way out of Celebici?

2 A. Maybe his family paid. But these are

3 rumours. This reflects the discipline and regime in

4 that prison where such things were possible. In other

5 words, lack of discipline.

6 Q. Well, sir, I am not asking you always even

7 for the truth of what happened, I am asking you whether

8 or not you think that Zara was released that way?

9 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour, that's

10 not relevant to anything.

11 THE WITNESS: You're looking then for half

12 truths, partial truths, for partial truth. And, for

13 me, it's hard to say.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know what else

15 you want him to say. You mentioned rumours, possibly

16 these are the same rumours which might have been going

17 on. It's not complete.

18 MS. McHENRY: That's right, Your Honour. And

19 let me clarify, and Judge Jan brought this up before.

20 When I ask him about his prior statements, I am not

21 necessarily suggesting that the prior statements are

22 true or not true, but I think whether or not this

23 witness has said different things in the past is

24 relevant to Your Honours evaluating his credibility.

25 That's the sole purpose for which I ask it. Let me

Page 13789

1 move on.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,

3 please.

4 JUDGE JAN: Is that the same person we saw on

5 the videotape doing push-ups in the presence of Pavo

6 Mucic?

7 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, someone else can

8 correct me, my belief is that the testimony establishes

9 that the person who was doing push-ups is not Zara.

10 It's another witness. In fact, another witness who

11 testified here --

12 JUDGE JAN: I just wanted to be sure.

13 MS. McHENRY: Zara did not testify here.

14 Q. Now, in the interview the prisoners said that

15 they were prisoners of war. Do you agree that Pavo

16 also told you that the prisoners in Celebici had been

17 arrested as prisoners of war?

18 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to object

19 to the question about prisoners of war, because that's

20 a legal conclusion for the Trial Chamber to make based

21 upon the facts that are presented.

22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, certainly if the

23 commander, the manager, commander of the prison, told

24 this witness that they were prisoners of war, that

25 would be relevant. It may not decide the legal

Page 13790

1 conclusion that Your Honours make, but it certainly

2 would be relevant to seeing how the Bosnian authorities

3 viewed these prisoners.

4 MR. KUZMANOVIC: What I wanted to --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel is using the

6 language for which the information was communicated to

7 the witness. I don't think it's out of place. If he

8 didn't understand it that way, he would say so. So

9 there's nothing strange in it.

10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, just to correct the

11 transcript, what you just said is being attributed to

12 Mr. Kuzmanovic, and it ought to be attributed to the

13 Court.

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's wrong.

15 JUDGE JAN: She's not asking about an

16 opinion. She's asking about a fact, whether he made

17 such a statement, which is --

18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I am not

19 sure --

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the transcript

21 has to be corrected for what Justice Karibi-Whyte said

22 to be attributed to Mr. Kuzmanovic, which is wrong.

23 MS. McHENRY: That's right. I think the

24 sentence that started, "Counsel is using the language

25 for which information was communicated to the witness,"

Page 13791

1 was said by Your Honour, Karibi-Whyte, and not

2 Mr. Kuzmanovic.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: "What I wanted", was not

4 even said, but I suppose counsel was interrupted.

5 That's why that change came into it.

6 MR. KUZMANOVIC: That's correct, Your

7 Honour. I'm sorry, I just wanted to make the same

8 objection as Mr. Moran did.


10 Q. Sir, do you agree that Pavo told you that the

11 prisoners were there as prisoners of war?

12 A. I cannot recall that detail.

13 Q. Well, maybe I can refresh your recollection

14 by directing you to your prior statement, and I am on

15 page 3 of the English version, and it's again the

16 sentence that begins, the paragraph that begins, "The

17 camp manager, a balding man, came out and introduced

18 himself as Pavo." And in the middle of that paragraph

19 there's a sentence which states, "He answered that they

20 were Serb doctors who had also been arrested as

21 prisoners of war and kept with the other prisoners for

22 some 20 days."

23 Does that refresh your recollection as to

24 whether or not Mr. Pavo told you that?

25 A. Yes. Go ahead, please. Something like that,

Page 13792

1 even though the sentences were summarised, there are

2 elements there. I cannot say that it's one hundred

3 percent, because your colleague was summarising

4 things. We talked for two days, five hours each day,

5 and this is the outcome. So it is possible that some

6 kind of improvisation is possible, but, as I just

7 scanned through it, there are some imprecisions there

8 as well.

9 Q. Well, let me just clarify. Before you signed

10 the statement, it was read over to you; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you stated --

14 A. In English, of course, and I don't speak

15 English, and this, it was just like that. It was very

16 relaxed. But I did sign it.

17 Q. And there was an interpreter there who spoke

18 Bosnian who read it over to you?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He is not disputing --

20 MS. McHENRY: That's fine. Let me go

21 forward.

22 Q. Sir, you stated, if I understood you

23 correctly, that the guards were wearing half civilian

24 and half military clothing. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes. If they received a uniform, they would

Page 13793

1 split. One would wear the top and one would wear the

2 pants. That was so in the beginning. Or maybe if they

3 were in the reserves, they would wear the former JNA

4 uniforms or even the former police.

5 Q. That's right, sir. Just again so we can get

6 out of here more quickly. I didn't ask you why it

7 happened, I just asked you to clarify that that is in

8 fact what happened.

9 Let me go on, though. Were all the guards

10 armed that you saw?

11 A. Yes. No.

12 Q. Who was armed that you saw, or approximately

13 how many of the guards? Can you give us some idea

14 about that?

15 A. Maybe out of eight or nine, maybe three or

16 four. The first one was armed, the young one, who was

17 at the gate, he had a rifle. It was an older model.

18 It is something that popularly was known as Tandzara.

19 Q. Now, sir, you indicated that you saw about 20

20 persons in Celebici. How many of those persons were

21 prisoners?

22 A. That is correct. The remainder, the eight or

23 nine -- of the eight of nine was prisoners.

24 Q. I'm sorry to repeat it. I just want to make

25 sure. So you saw -- in total you had the opportunity

Page 13794

1 to see eight or nine, even if you couldn't talk to them

2 all, you had the opportunity to see about eight or nine

3 prisoners, correct?

4 A. Maybe even more, because there were eight or

5 nine guards, and, you know, 20 is a bit more. I said

6 approximately. I didn't count them. I didn't -- it

7 didn't even cross my mind to count them.

8 Q. I understand it's approximate, sir. Now, how

9 did you know that the persons you saw cleaning the

10 compound and sitting under a hangar were prisoners?

11 A. Simply, you could see that. They were

12 dressed in light clothes and the other ones had some

13 kind of military markings, either an item of clothing,

14 military clothing, or some of them had weapons or some

15 of them had belts. And I believe that the prisoners

16 are taken -- all the belts -- all the belts are taken

17 away from the prisoners when they enter.

18 Q. Now, you would agree with me, sir, that at

19 the time you were at the camp, you did not have any

20 illusions that you were able to get a complete picture

21 of the camp; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, I had no such illusions. I don't have

23 such illusions even to date. I don't think that I

24 could have gotten the full picture.

25 Q. Now, you would also agree with me, that when

Page 13795

1 you left Celebici, you wanted to interview someone from

2 the local authorities about the Celebici camp?

3 A. With representatives of some local

4 authorities, or with some representatives of local

5 authorities or some people of influence who meant

6 something in that town. There was no strict formation

7 there, and I am not a military expert.

8 Q. Now, if I understood you yesterday, you

9 stated that you knew that Mr. Delalic had nothing to do

10 with the camp. You would agree with me that previously

11 you've stated that although you did not know everyone

12 who had responsibility for the camp, you knew that

13 Mr. Delalic was involved in the camp, at least as far

14 as logistics went, and indeed that one of his

15 responsibilities was to supply food for the camp?

16 A. Yes. He provided part of the food and, as I

17 said, food was cooked for both -- for everyone. Now,

18 this is something that I learned later. And so the

19 prisoners were receiving the same food. And let me

20 just add, that he didn't have such financial means that

21 he could provide for all the food for everyone, but he

22 definitely did provide for some.

23 Q. Let me just clarify, sir. I am not sure I

24 understand -- I understood entirely your answer. You

25 would agree with me that at the time you talked with

Page 13796

1 Mr. Delalic, you believed that he had responsibility

2 for logistics and supplying food to the camp? I am not

3 asking you what in fact is true --

4 A. Not just the camp. Not just the camp. Not

5 just the camp.

6 Q. But including the camp, correct?

7 A. Yes. Because it was the same food. I think

8 that all food was shared.

9 Q. Now, sir, you've testified to this, but let

10 me just ask if you are sure. Are you sure that it was

11 Mr. Delalic who stopped you and Mrs. Milosevic, rather

12 than you stopping Mr. Delalic?

13 A. Yes. Yes, I just turned on headlights to

14 flash the lights, and he stopped me because I was in

15 the middle of the road. He stopped me.

16 Q. Okay. Well, sir, would you agree with me

17 that in both your statement to the Defence and your

18 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor you stated

19 clearly and in detail that it was you who stopped

20 Mr. Delalic?

21 A. No. He gave me a signal with his hand and,

22 since I was driving, I flashed my lights.

23 Q. May I ask that the witness be shown his prior

24 statement to the Defence. And while you are doing

25 that, sir, let me first direct you to the statement you

Page 13797

1 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, which you already

2 have.

3 JUDGE JAN: Is it material who stopped who?

4 MS. McHENRY: I believe it is material, and I

5 believe that's why the Defence brought it out in

6 direct, and that's why I want to bring it out.

7 Q. Sir, first let me ask that you just look at

8 your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, and ask

9 whether or not, on page 4 in the English version, in

10 the paragraph beginning, "We were discussing whom we

11 might talk to in the municipality --", and you stated,

12 "Mr. Delalic was just about to leave the house in his

13 car together with his driver, Irfan. I made a sign to

14 stop them, so they drove back inside the yard."

15 Do you remember saying that to the Office of

16 the Prosecutor?

17 A. I don't recall him saying that, but I recall

18 very well that I said that I flashed my lights and his

19 driver flashed back to me, and that he raised his hand

20 signalling me to stop. Maybe he understood it to mean

21 that I had flashed him so that he would stop.

22 Q. And let me go on, sir, and let me ask you to

23 look at the statement you gave to the Defence in your

24 own language, and ask you whether or not in the fifth

25 -- from the last paragraph you remember stating, "On

Page 13798

1 our way from the prison, in front of the house of

2 Zejnil Delalic, who I knew from before, we saw a car

3 pulling out of the driveway with Zejnil in it. I

4 waved, and Irfan, his driver, stopped the car."

5 Do you remember if that's what you told the

6 Defence investigator?

7 A. I cannot exclude that possibility, but I am

8 quite certain that I flashed him, that his driver

9 flashed, and that he raised a hand. I don't know why

10 this is important. But he may have also understood

11 that he was supposed to stop.

12 Q. Now, referring to your interview of

13 Mr. Delalic about the Celebici camp. Did you tell

14 Mr. Delalic just what you wanted him to say, and he

15 then repeated what you told him in front of the

16 cameras, or did he give his own answers?

17 A. We did not tell him what we wanted him to

18 say, but we told him that we had visited the Celebici

19 prison, that we wanted a segment, and he said, "What do

20 I have to do with any of that?" He was talking about

21 how they were preparing this ceremony of swearing in,

22 and I think that he gave us just a routine statement.

23 He was making a comment on what he had heard on SRNA

24 television.

25 Q. Now, in your interview, did you ever give any

Page 13799

1 indication about where Mr. Delalic was being

2 interviewed, where the interview was taking place?

3 A. What do you mean? Oh, you mean the story

4 itself, the -- you mean the statement?

5 Q. In the videotape of your interview with

6 Mr. Delalic, do you ever give any oral indication about

7 where the interview was taking place, you or

8 Mrs. Milosevic?

9 A. I myself did not, but I believe that because

10 of the authenticity of the -- of surroundings, I think

11 that he may have -- I think that at the very beginning

12 of the tape he may have said, "We are here in the

13 Celebici barracks," and then she may have asked him a

14 question.

15 Q. Okay. Going on, sir, to this ceremony that

16 you mentioned Mr. Delalic was going to with HOS. Where

17 did that ceremony take place?

18 A. That ceremony was to take place in the

19 immediate vicinity of Delalic's house, but Zvonko

20 Lukic, I believe that is his name, I think that he was

21 the commander, he was told by Delalic to do it in

22 Delalic's backyard, and for just for the camera, and

23 that later they would do it the way they had planned.

24 And in the background you could see the grey concrete

25 blocks, and the weeping willow was the other background

Page 13800

1 for Jadranka, when he was talking about SRNA.

2 Q. Sir, my question was, where did the HOS

3 ceremony that you also filmed take place, or is it the

4 case that that also took place in Delalic's backyard?

5 A. No. It was only done for television, this

6 exchange, and the whole ceremony, it was near that

7 motel or hotel, whatever it is near Delalic's house.

8 There was some type of headquarters in there or

9 something, because Lukic came when he was called to

10 perform this ceremony of the exchange, and on the film

11 you don't see anybody else but the two of them.

12 Whereas, in the ceremony itself you should have seen a

13 lot of people present.

14 Q. So, if I understood you correctly,

15 Mr. Delalic was in his car driving to his own backyard

16 on his way to the ceremony?

17 A. He was leaving his backyard in order to go to

18 the ceremony, and he went back.

19 Q. Okay. How long did you stay there recording

20 the ceremony, approximately?

21 A. We did not tape the ceremony. We just did

22 the ceremony of the exchange of flags, and we did it

23 just for the camera, because we were in a hurry. We

24 had to drop off the footage at the Bjelasnica. Then

25 three or four days later there was the swearing in

Page 13801

1 ceremony in the Celebici barracks.

2 Q. And did you film that also?

3 A. No. There was a different crew. We had

4 drinks there, we talked to some people whom we knew,

5 and it didn't make sense for two crews to film the

6 whole -- the same thing. That would not be in the best

7 professional interest, if they were already there.

8 Q. Okay. The interview that you -- we saw today

9 with Mr. Delalic, about troops and the siege of

10 Sarajevo, did that interview occur before or after the

11 Celebici interview?

12 A. Afterwards. I'm sorry, can you repeat that

13 question for me, please?

14 Q. The interview that we saw today, that you

15 took of Mr. Delalic and its discussion about troops and

16 Sarajevo, did that interview occur after, sometime

17 after the interview about Celebici, if you know?

18 A. Just a moment, please. I cannot recall, but

19 please give me just a minute. We went that day, we

20 took the footage. It was -- I think it was later. It

21 was afterwards. I'm not sure, but I believe that it

22 was.

23 Q. Okay. Now, you talked about the propaganda

24 against Mr. Delalic, and, in an effort to counter the

25 propaganda against Mr. Delalic, did you ever say false

Page 13802

1 things or participate in an effort to publicise false

2 information to counter the propaganda against

3 Mr. Delalic?

4 A. That was not my task, to protect someone or

5 anything like that. And I believe that it's very

6 difficult to deny successfully something that has

7 already been published. In a journalistic saying --

8 the journalistic saying is that it's like collecting

9 feathers in a storm. But it was something that had to

10 do with my country. I don't know.

11 Q. Sir, do I understand your answer to be a no,

12 you never participated in any effort to spread false

13 information about Mr. Delalic to try to counter the

14 propaganda against him?

15 A. Not him personally. Then I would have had to

16 do it for Divjak and the others as well. I am not

17 anyone's personal journalist. I am a journalist of the

18 Bosnian State Television.

19 Q. And did you help Mr. Ciso in any way, another

20 journalist?

21 A. The name, please?

22 Q. I'm sorry, this is something that

23 Mr. O'Sullivan corrected in the transcript, and I'm not

24 sure I'm pronouncing the name correctly. So maybe

25 Mr. O'Sullivan could pronounce the name.

Page 13803

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: (No translation)


3 A. I don't know such a person. I don't know

4 Ciso. It's not a name in Bosnia-Herzegovina.


6 Q. Now, as members of Bosnian State Television,

7 you would agree that you were sometimes permitted

8 access to locations and events that were not available

9 to other journalists?

10 A. No. I think not.

11 Q. And would you agree with me that at this time

12 the relations between various Bosnian authorities,

13 including Konjic authorities, and you and your

14 colleague, Mrs. Milosevic, were close?

15 A. My relationship with the authorities?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Never. On the contrary, even today I am not

18 very popular with the authorities, but I am popular

19 with the people. However, the authorities come and

20 go. Even earlier in communism I was never a member of

21 any party, and I was never popular with any of them.

22 On the contrary, I was suspended several times.

23 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that you and

24 Mrs. Milosevic received certain valuable gifts,

25 including a car, from various Konjic officials,

Page 13804

1 wouldn't you?

2 A. No, not from individuals, but we did get a

3 car for use from General Major Daidza, who was a free

4 shooter. He was roaming around and stealing cars,

5 robbing cars, and he said we could take any which one

6 we wanted. Later we had Zastava 128 car, which we

7 again got through private channels and gave back. And

8 for a while I was driving my own car until it broke

9 down on me.

10 Q. Did you previously give an interview on a

11 show called Open Studio, in which, among other things,

12 you mentioned that you had received a car from Jasmin

13 Gusko?

14 A. No, that was a car belonging to Jasmin Gusko,

15 which we had to return. We used it for

16 three-and-a-half months, but his people came and took

17 it away from us. But we used it to bring the footage

18 that we had taped up to Mount Bjelasnica. That is

19 correct.

20 Q. Now, you talked about some additional

21 occasions that you saw Mr. Delalic, and then some later

22 interviews that you had with Mr. Delalic. Can you

23 please approximate how many times you have received or

24 talked to Mr. Delalic, from the time you first met him

25 to the present?

Page 13805

1 JUDGE JAN: Seen or talked, each separately.

2 --- (No microphone)


4 Q. Let's start off with seen.

5 A. That's impossible.

6 Q. Is that because it's so many times?

7 A. I don't know exactly how many times, but it

8 was quite a number of times, because he was in the area

9 where I lived with his units trying to lift the siege

10 on Sarajevo. In Pasaric, which is about some 30

11 kilometres away from Konjic.

12 Q. Sir, one of the times that you saw

13 Mr. Delalic later was a meeting about the exchange of

14 prisoners, and it specifically included the discussion

15 of the exchange of prisoners in Celebici; is that

16 correct?

17 A. That was not a meeting where only that was

18 being discussed. I think it was a meeting which

19 included commanders of 17, I believe, municipalities,

20 and it was held in Tarcin. And it was the -- the talk

21 was mainly about the convoys which was blocked by the

22 extreme wing of the HVO, so that the necessary

23 equipment for the defence of the armed forces of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina could not reach them. And later the

25 conversation was not just about Celebici, but also

Page 13806

1 about the silo in Tarcin.

2 Q. Now, even after he left Bosnia --

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think, Ms. McHenry, we

4 might have to stop here.

5 MS. McHENRY: That's fine, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll reassemble at

7 2.30.

8 MS. McHENRY: I don't have much more left. I

9 just advise you. Thank you.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will

11 rise.















Page 13807

1 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I apologise for

4 being late, and Ms. Boler is right behind me.

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Just remind him he is on

6 his oath.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Demic, may I remind you,

8 you are still under oath.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Please take your seat,

10 please. Yes, you may proceed, Ms. McHenry.

11 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

13 A. Good afternoon, ma'am.

14 Q. Now, sir, even after Mr. Delalic left

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, you continued to be in touch with

16 him on a business and a personal level, correct?

17 A. No. In contact, yes. I once sent him a

18 video letter directly by somebody -- indirectly by

19 somebody. I sent him some materials, something we have

20 shot because I knew that he was an activist in an

21 association of Bosniaks in Vienna. And that club where

22 they met, I thought he might have the opportunity of

23 showing that. And we hoped that they would help us,

24 technically speaking, and help us create better

25 conditions for our work. I sent and I taped this video

Page 13808

1 letter myself. I placed the camera on the table in my

2 office. I then sat in a chair. I taped the message

3 and then I switched the camera off.

4 Q. And when you say you asked him to arrange for

5 some technical help, you asked him, among other things,

6 to try to arrange for you to receive a gift of a car,

7 didn't you?

8 A. I don't remember of speaking of that. I

9 didn't need that as a gift. I needed that -- we needed

10 that gift for the office and not for myself as long as

11 the war lasted. After that, we would return it.

12 Because, to take personal gifts, that makes no sense.

13 Q. So, if I understand you correctly, you do

14 remember that you asked for him to arrange for you to

15 have the use of a car as a gift for your work, not for

16 you personally; is that correct?

17 A. No. That was for my service, the press

18 centre and a number of people work there, six people

19 precisely: Our secretary, three collaborators, an

20 interpreter, myself, my colleague.

21 Q. So you would then agree that you asked for

22 him to arrange for the gift of a car for the use of you

23 and the other persons who worked in your service?

24 A. I think that the emphasis was on the

25 technical equipment and not on the automobile. We

Page 13809

1 didn't want that from his pocket, but we hoped we'd

2 have contribution from the people who would gather in

3 that club in Vienna. It was supposed to be a form of

4 assistance, of aid, because technical means aren't

5 cheap.

6 Q. Okay. And you also talked to Mr. Delalic on

7 the phone on occasion, didn't you?

8 A. No. I didn't have the opportunity. You know

9 what the situation was as far as telephone links were

10 concerned, you couldn't get in touch with Sarajevo, not

11 to speak of Vienna.

12 Q. Well, it's not important enough, so I

13 won't delay things further.

14 MS. McHENRY: No further questions. Thank

15 you, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

17 Any re-examination?

18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, there is

19 re-examination.

20 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, may I also, may I

21 ask that, for the purposes of impeachment only, both

22 this witness' prior statements be admitted into

23 evidence.

24 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object to

25 them being admitted for any purpose other than showing

Page 13810

1 the extent to which he was impeached, not for

2 impeachment themselves.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if one was

4 impeaching, you don't impeach everything that was said,

5 it was a specific area.

6 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To be affected.

8 MR. MORAN: In fact, I am going to go over a

9 little of that in re-examination.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Moran:

11 Q. Sir, I am going to ask you a very few

12 questions, it shouldn't take more than 10 or 15

13 minutes, about some of the things Ms. McHenry asked

14 you. The first thing I am going to ask you about, and

15 this is pretty much going to be in the order that she

16 asked them. Remember the question she asked about

17 whether or not you heard reports on SRNA about the

18 Musala camp or was it just Celebici? Do you remember

19 that question?

20 JUDGE JAN: He said just Celebici.

21 MR. MORAN: Yes, just Celebici.

22 Q. Do you remember that question, sir?

23 A. I spoke of a report and I remember that it

24 spoke about Celebici, but I don't exclude the

25 possibility that it also mentioned Musala.

Page 13811

1 Q. Okay. Now, mainly I was asking you if you

2 remembered the question. Did you hear any other

3 reports on SRNA radio or television about any other

4 alleged prison camps -- and this is a "yes" or "no"

5 question -- that were run by the Bosnian government?

6 A. Yes. Yes, I heard.

7 Q. Now, sir, without going into any detail at

8 all, just very quickly, did you check out some of those

9 reports?

10 A. Could you repeat that?

11 Q. Having heard those reports of other prison

12 camps, did you check out what was the allegations that

13 were made by the Serbs?

14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Verified them.

15 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, verified them.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.


18 Q. With the exception of the Tarcin facility,

19 which we will talk about separately, did you find -- I

20 will talk about Tarcin separately. Did you find that

21 any of these other camps existed?

22 A. No, nothing except the silo in Tarcin.

23 Q. Let me focus on the silo in Tarcin, and I am

24 going to ask you a couple of specific questions about

25 that. And here's another "yes" or "no" question. Did

Page 13812

1 you visit the silo at Tarcin?

2 MS. McHENRY: I am going to object as going

3 beyond the scope of cross-examination.

4 MR. MORAN: Actually, Your Honour, it's not,

5 and I will show you why because -- Your Honour, I

6 promise you I will tie it up. And it will be about

7 three questions.

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, the truth is that

9 this is going beyond what was the matter in

10 cross-examination, not whether you're adding or

11 anything, because you're adding to it.

12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, there was some

13 question from the Prosecutor about notice of visits and

14 things like that. And I want to show the Trial

15 Chamber --

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: -- Celebici.

17 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, but I wanted to

18 show the Trial Chamber that while this man could just

19 essentially pop up on the front door of the Celebici

20 camp to take a look at the facility, that to get into

21 the other camp was a much more difficult thing to do

22 and required the permission from the first corps and

23 that he had officers that took him there and things

24 like that. If the Trial Chamber thinks that it's

25 irrelevant, I will not ask the questions.

Page 13813

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't know how it

2 arose from the cross-examination at all.

3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.

4 Q. During cross-examination do you remember

5 being asked about the statement that you made that Mr.

6 Delalic appeared to be the superior of this young

7 guard?

8 A. I do remember the question.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: Somebody has mentioned Delic,

10 Delic. We're speaking of Delic, not Delalic.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not Delalic, it's

12 Delic.

13 THE WITNESS: Delic, Delic, yes.


15 Q. Now, did you base your opinion on whether or

16 not Mr. Delic was a superior based on the fact that

17 perhaps this guard went over and saluted him and called

18 him, yes, sir, or did you base it on something else,

19 perhaps? Well, what did you base your opinion on?

20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said he assumed.

21 That's what he said, he assumed.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was my assumption.


24 Q. What was the basis of your assumption, sir?

25 A. I could assume so because he turned to him in

Page 13814

1 that way. And one could understand also that this was

2 an experienced person, while the young man at the gate

3 was very young, indeed. But you can't imagine it, I

4 really wasn't interested in that aspect of the affair.

5 Q. Are you sure that's why you were not there?

6 Remember when the Prosecutor talked to you about the

7 statement, or the portion of your statement that some

8 days after the fall of Bradina, you met Mr. Delalic for

9 the first time in a cultural hall in Konjic and talked

10 about visiting the camp?

11 A. I met him in front of that building. He --

12 that wasn't a meeting with him. I encountered him

13 while I was talking to some other people, another group

14 of people. In front of that building.

15 Q. What I am trying to get at, sir, is that was

16 shortly after the fall of Bradina?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And Bradina fell in late May of 1992?

19 A. I believe it was on the 25th or on the 27th.

20 It began on the 25th and the operation lasted 48

21 hours. It ended on the 27th.

22 Q. Okay. And your visit to Celebici was

23 sometime in the middle two weeks of August; is that

24 right?

25 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand you, sir.

Page 13815

1 Q. When you went to Celebici to make this

2 television film that we saw, that was sometime in the

3 middle of August?

4 A. Well, approximately. But, it could be

5 determined by the archived tapes which were aired.

6 Q. Okay, that's fine. I just wanted to see if

7 there was a big time difference there. Remember the

8 question and the discussion you had with Mrs. McHenry

9 about the prisoner who distributed the food looking

10 like he was well fed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. He was standing right next to Zara, wasn't

13 he?

14 A. Well, first he was a bit further standing

15 away from Zara, but when they told us that he is the

16 man who distributes the meals, then we called him and

17 he came closer to Zara.

18 Q. Did Zara look like he'd missed a whole lot of

19 meals? That he hadn't been fed?

20 A. Well, you could see it on the pictures

21 yourself, on the film.

22 Q. Did he look like he had been -- pretty much

23 like he looked before the war as to weight and things

24 like that?

25 A. Yes, approximately.

Page 13816

1 Q. Now, these rumours that you were asked about,

2 about people paying for their release, those were just

3 simply rumours, right?

4 A. Yes, yes, rumours, rumours which you could

5 hear also about other prisons.

6 Q. And there were rumours about all kinds of

7 things floating around Bosnia at that time, weren't

8 there? Rumours about everybody and all kinds of

9 rumours about various things?

10 A. Absolutely so.

11 Q. Okay. Now, the last thing I want to talk

12 about, last area, and then we'll be able to let you go

13 is, Mrs. McHenry asked you, I think probably on two

14 separate occasions, about you trying to arrange someone

15 to give you a car. Do you remember those questions?

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. Now, you were and still are an employee of

18 Bosnian State Television; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I am not familiar with how a state

21 television operation works, but basically you're an

22 employee of the government; is that fair? Your pay

23 cheque comes from the government?

24 A. No. No, absolutely not. If it were coming

25 from them, I wouldn't be having a cheque of 250

Page 13817

1 Deutschmarks.

2 Q. Okay. The point I am trying to get at is,

3 you were looking for people to donate the use of

4 vehicles to state television and not to you

5 personally?

6 A. Yes, it was an office of the state

7 television. This was just a segment from that

8 interview. We were -- they were one of the rare people

9 trying to help us. I have been, in fact, beaten

10 twice. Twice arrested. I have been accused of

11 collaboration with the aggression arms, forces of

12 aggression, and this statement was taken out of its

13 context.

14 Q. Okay. I thank you very much, for coming,

15 sir.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

19 Thank you very much for your assistance. You are

20 discharged.

21 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, I'm sorry, may I

22 just ask one question that comes directly out of

23 re-exam?

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After re-examination?

25 MS. McHENRY: Yes, after Mr. Moran's

Page 13818

1 re-examination, one question that comes directly out of

2 it.

3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the question?


5 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that when you

6 first went to the camp, you saw Mr. Delic order the

7 younger guard to go get the camp manager?

8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I am going to

9 object. First, it's asking him to answer. And,

10 second, he gave an answer. He gave a clear answer.

11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What is the ambiguity in

12 the question?

13 MS. McHENRY: The ambiguity was, why was it

14 that this witness assumed that Mr. Delic was a

15 superior? In a prior statement he indicated that he

16 saw Mr. Delic give an order to the younger guard and I

17 believe that's relevant.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't hear him to

19 answer that.

20 MS. McHENRY: No, Your Honour, he did --

21 THE WITNESS: It's absolutely not true that I

22 used the term "order". I, in fact, I am a journalist,

23 I am not an officer. I don't know what an order is.

24 And he asked, not the young guard at the gate, but

25 another young soldier who was standing there close by.

Page 13819

1 That is the absolute truth.

2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He first approached this

3 young soldier who went to call, who he later knew to be

4 Delic. And to who he discussed about --

5 THE WITNESS: Yes, the man who was washing

6 the automobile.

7 MS. McHENRY: I believe the witness has now

8 answered the question in his prior statement and is in,

9 at least for the purposes of determining the extent he

10 has been impeached, so I have no further questions.

11 Thank you.

12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much,

13 witness, you are discharged. You are discharged.

14 Okay, that's all for you.

15 THE WITNESS: I thank also you and I hope I

16 have been helpful, helping you to come to the truth.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Quite helpful, yes.

18 (The witness withdrew)

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have your next

20 witness?


22 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, as the Trial Chamber

23 knows, the next witness we have, or I thought knew, the

24 next witness we had is under a subpoena. The next two

25 are due to appear by order of the Trial Chamber at

Page 13820

1 10.00 a.m. on Tuesday. And then the witness we will

2 have after that will be Dr. Bellas, who has been

3 ordered to appear on Wednesday. And the last witness

4 we will have is under subpoena and the Trial Chamber

5 set his appearance for 10.00 a.m. on Thursday. So,

6 Your Honours, we're out of witnesses, except for people

7 who have had times specifically set by order of the

8 Court.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The next one is Tabak

10 and -- next witness is Nurko Tabak.

11 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, Tabak and

12 Buturovic are the two that the Trial Chamber ordered to

13 appear at 10.00 a.m. on Tuesday. And then Dr. Bellas

14 again by order of the Trial Chamber is on Wednesday.

15 And on Thursday on Mr. Ustalic, the subpoena that you

16 issued yesterday, orders his appearance at 10.00 a.m. a

17 week from today.

18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I suppose that is all we

19 have for today.

20 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.


22 MS. McHENRY: Your Honour, if I might just

23 take this time to do a very brief housekeeping matter.

24 There have been a number of documents introduced and

25 there was two documents that had been introduced by

Page 13821

1 both, in effect, the Prosecution as an exhibit to Mr.

2 Delalic's statement and then also by the Defence. The

3 Prosecution noted that there were a number of

4 discrepancies in the two translations of the

5 documents. They were, thus, submitted to the

6 translation section, the originals, as well as the

7 different translations, and then they were asked to

8 come up with, you know, what final certified

9 translation. They did that. I have previously given

10 them to Defence counsel, including Ms. Residovic, so

11 they had a chance to check them too. And I would just

12 now like to offer the corrected versions. They are --

13 these are the new translations from the translation

14 section for Prosecution Exhibit 99 7-10 and 7-11. And

15 for D, Defence 145/5-D-41. And 5-D-42. I have them

16 marked here for the registrar and there is extra copies

17 if Your Honours want them. So I just wanted to do that

18 as a housekeeping matter. Thank you.

19 MS. McMURREY: And, Your Honours, if I may,

20 as another housekeeping matter, we have another

21 additional subpoena to file and since we're due to

22 start our case in ten days, I would like to ask the

23 Court to hear that matter at this point? Would that be

24 okay with Your Honours?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, subpoenas and what

Page 13822

1 witnesses, have you asked the registry or Mr. John

2 Hawking?

3 MS. McMURREY: No, Your Honour, I haven't

4 asked the registry or Mr. Hawking --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: What have they done with

6 it?

7 MS. McMURREY: This is an additional one --

8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber

9 doesn't issue subpoenas. It's entirely an

10 administrative matter. All the Trial Chamber does is

11 to sign it. If you fear that there is any reaction by

12 the Prosecution, then we'll know. I don't think the

13 Prosecution is opposing the issue of the subpoena.

14 MS. McMURREY: Okay, well, I am glad to know

15 that. I guess I have been following the improper

16 procedure by filing it as a request for the Trial

17 Chamber. So I am glad to know that I just file it with

18 the registry from now on.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, you file it with

20 the registry, they will refer it. If there is any

21 opposition because you definitely can inform the

22 Prosecution, if they are opposed to it, perhaps you

23 might argue the reasons for it. But in most cases,

24 it's recognised as purely an administrative one.

25 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 13823

1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Perhaps some of the

2 problems perhaps you might have in your own case, you

3 know on that two weeks from now, you ought to be

4 leading evidence in Defence of your client and you will

5 be required to give notice of the witnesses you intend

6 to call within seven days of the period. So you have

7 to get your witnesses ready and then inform both the

8 Trial Chamber and other counsel and Prosecution as to

9 these witnesses. It doesn't even appear that you even

10 have your final list of witnesses.

11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Ms. Boler and I

12 have been working on that final list since she returned

13 from Bosnia Monday night and I certainly will be

14 prepared to offer it to the Prosecution and the Trial

15 Chamber on Monday morning.

16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That is the latest you

17 could do it. Because even if you did it before then,

18 it might come within the rules. Because if you do it

19 later, you might not come within the seven-day rule

20 within which you should give evidence.

21 MS. McMURREY: I believe Monday is within the

22 seven-day rule, so I will have it filed.

23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Seven working days.

24 MS. McMURREY: Seven working days?

25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's how rules are

Page 13824

1 read.

2 MS. McMURREY: That's not been the compliance

3 so far by -- it's always been --

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Some of these rules are

5 very clear and accepted in the profession. It's not

6 for one to be telling you each of the rules, how it

7 was. We know that. It's working days that's used in

8 recording the expiration of days.

9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I know the Court

10 says everything is very clear and I should know the law

11 here and there. I was under the impression that this

12 is a melting pot of different laws from all different

13 jurisdictions, so I don't think that I should assume

14 any one jurisdiction applies.

15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do your best.

16 MS. McMURREY: I will do my best.

17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So that we will get

18 going. Mrs. Residovic.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honours, when yesterday

20 my learned colleague, Ms. McHenry, pointed several

21 differences between the translation, I thanked her

22 because I believe it's in everyone's interest to have a

23 unified and precise, accurate translation between

24 Bosnian and English. However, since I only received it

25 last night, I have not had an opportunity to go over

Page 13825

1 the text with our interpreters and confirm that this

2 text is indeed the correct one.

3 So I would just like to request, with respect

4 to the translations that have just been submitted, to

5 have an opportunity to confirm that before we enter it

6 into the record. And I believe that this would be the

7 best way to avoid any potential appeals or complaints

8 later on. I think that would be the best way to go

9 about this.

10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Actually, I was waiting

11 to inform you, I think, when you talk about a

12 discrepancy and then you are having a correct version,

13 I am assuming it's an agreed, correct version by both

14 parties. That is what that means. So if you have also

15 seen the new version and are agreeable, which means

16 both sides are agreed. This is my understanding of

17 it.

18 JUDGE JAN: Mostly it is difficult to

19 translate everything which is written in Bosnian and

20 English.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: Yes. And also we use a

22 different number of translators. We have our own team

23 here, we have official translators here at the

24 Tribunal, then we have a large number of translators in

25 Sarajevo. So this is why we need to go and take this

Page 13826

1 to some of these interpreters, and I believe that by

2 Tuesday we will be able to come back with an agreed

3 version of it. Thank you.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I would have thought in

5 a situation like this, official interpreters who are

6 not initially involved in the interpretation should

7 have their agency to get us an agreed version. I

8 thought that was the better way.

9 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour. I mean, we

10 just give it to the interpretation section. I'm sorry,

11 I thought it had been agreed upon, and, in fact, I

12 thought it had been two days ago, and we had agreed

13 that it was agreed. But --

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: Last night.

15 MS. McHENRY: If Ms. Residovic says that, I

16 don't dispute it. I may have been mistaken about it,

17 and certainly I think it should be an agreed

18 interpretation. Now, that being said, it's not really

19 agreed to by the Prosecution. It's going to ultimately

20 be decided by the interpretation section of the -- of

21 this Tribunal, of which we have no control, and we just

22 submit it to them and ask them. So I agree with Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: Thank you.

Page 13827

1 MS. BOLER: Your Honours, if I may just ask

2 for some clarification.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, microphone please.

4 MS. BOLER: If the witness list needs to be

5 turned in before the day's over, so that it then would

6 be seven working days, or may we turn it in Monday

7 morning, which was our understanding of seven days. I

8 just would like some clarification.

9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Well, as I said, we are

10 quite relaxed about so many things here. The more you

11 agree with your colleagues, the better, if they then do

12 not object to it. But definitely the better way is to

13 try before the weekend. So if you do it tomorrow, you

14 might be able to get these, you know, tomorrow, Friday,

15 the next days, and because it's usually midnight of the

16 day before the effective day.

17 So when you are recording days, it should

18 have been midnight of Sunday, will be the first day for

19 Monday. So if you send it on Friday, then you can get

20 enough days.

21 MS. BOLER: I understand what you are telling

22 me. Because I brought a lot of tapes back from Konjic

23 that are now being interpreted, I think that the

24 interpreter was going to get us those tapes on the

25 weekend, where we could then go through and then make

Page 13828

1 our determination about who we would call and when.

2 And at first I heard you say that as long as there was

3 no objection from my colleagues, that Monday morning

4 would be okay --

5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If there is a lot of

6 cooperation among counsel --

7 MS. BOLER: I understand. I just don't want

8 to do something that then -- that maybe it wouldn't be

9 accepted if I turned it in Monday morning. So I just

10 want to be clear that what I am hearing you say is, I

11 believe, as long as I have the cooperation from my

12 co-counsel.

13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have some

14 difficulties, you can ring them, tell them that this is

15 coming, and they will know what is going on.

16 MS. BOLER: But it's all right with the Court

17 to turn it in Monday morning, if it's okay with the

18 other lawyers; is that correct?

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, we'll accept that.

20 MS. BOLER: Thank you, Your Honour. I just

21 wanted to clarify that. Thank you.

22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We'll have to --

23 JUDGE JAN: Actually, it's more important

24 that they should be here on the day when your evidence

25 starts.

Page 13829

1 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, they will be.

2 JUDGE JAN: You must give Ms. McHenry some

3 notice so that she can prepare for cross-examination.

4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Even if you don't have

5 them, at least you know the list, you give them the

6 names of which are ready, and then you continue. And

7 one of experience and practice, this is quite normal.

8 Keep on talking. And it may solve a lot of confidence

9 among counsel.

10 I think this is all we have for the day, and

11 I thank you for the week. Until Tuesday, the 7th. So

12 the Trial Chamber will now rise. Although we do not

13 rule out anything cropping up which might necessitate

14 informing counsel that we might reassemble and take

15 some decisions.

16 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think anybody can

17 be here, on the Defence side, on two or three hours

18 notice.

19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I am just giving a

20 hint. If it becomes necessary, we may still

21 reassemble.

22 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry our

23 witnesses went so fast.

24 JUDGE JAN: You should be happy.

25 MR. MORAN: I am happy, judge. I am sorry

Page 13830

1 about wasting time.

2 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

3 3.10 p.m., to be reconvened on

4 Tuesday, the 7 day of July, 1998,

5 at 10.00 a.m.