1 Wednesday, 29 July 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 10.12 a.m.
3 (Open session)
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Good morning, ladies and
5 gentlemen, may we have the appearances, please?
6 MS. McHENRY: Good morning, Your Honours,
7 Teresa McHenry for the Prosecution appearing with
8 Mr. Turone, Mr. Cowles and Mr. Huber.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: May we have the
10 appearances for the Defence?
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: Good morning, Your Honours,
12 Edina Residovic representing Mr. Zejnil Delic who is
13 defended by my colleague, co-counsel Mr. Eugene
14 O'Sullivan of Canada.
15 MR. OLUJIC: Good morning, Your Honours,
16 Zeljko Olujic, Defence counsel of Croatia. I represent
17 Zdravko Mucic, together with me he is represented by
18 Mr. Tomislav Kuzmanovic all the way from the United
19 States of America.
20 MR. KARABDIC: Good morning, Your Honours, my
21 name is Salih Karabdic lawyer from Sarajevo
22 representing Mr. Hazim Delic together with Thomas
23 Moran, a lawyer of Houston, Texas.
24 MS. McMURREY: Good morning, Your Honours,
25 I'm Cynthia McMurrey, and along with Nancy Boler and
1 Calvin Saunders we represent Esad Landzo. Mrs. Boler
2 will be absent from the courtroom this morning. She
3 has business to attend to outside. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mrs. McMurrey, we have
5 your client for cross-examination, is that correct?
6 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, I believe
7 that's correct.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Which of you choose to
9 have the cross-examination? Mrs. Residovic, I thought
10 you were in charge; how did you organise your
11 cross-examination?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: Your Honour, I already stated
13 that the Defence of Mr. Delic has no questions for this
14 witness. The cross-examination will continue as in the
15 indictment, starting with the Defence representing
16 Mr. Mucic, followed by the Defence representing
17 Mr. Delic. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you, very much.
19 Mr. Olujic, you may start your cross-examination.
20 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you are you still
22 under oath.
23 WITNESS: ESAD LANDZO
24 Cross-examined by Mr. Olujic:
25 MR. OLUJIC:
1 Good morning, Mr. Landzo. We will talk about
2 certain matters. There is no need for me to introduce
3 myself to you, you know very well that I represent
4 Mr. Mucic. Everything that applied to the other
5 witnesses when using our language, of course, also
6 applies to this conversation of ours this morning.
7 Q. Mr. Landzo, when describing your physical and
8 mental health since your childhood, do you think that
9 you were physically less developed than the others in
10 your generation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Landzo, were you afraid of your peers?
13 A. Depends on who you have in mind.
14 Q. Did you allow others to beat you up at
15 school?
16 A. No, I had no problems throughout my school
17 years.
18 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honours, we're
19 having a technical problem. I hate to break into this,
20 but we're not getting the transcript on the screen, and
21 I don't know whether I'm pushing the wrong button or --
22 it's off and it won't go on.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Do you still have the
24 problem?
25 MR. MORAN: Yes, the light that says off is
1 lit and none of the other, or the one that's
2 transcript, apparently that switch is broken.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly get in touch with
4 the technicians and they will come and see what to do.
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, apparently it can't
6 be immediately fixed. I guess we'll have to live
7 without it. I'm sorry for stopping the proceedings.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If it's only one, I
9 don't know how we can adjust by moving a little bit.
10 MR. MORAN: The apparent problem seems to be
11 that the switch itself is not working. And it's going
12 to take some time to fix that, so we'll just have to
13 live without it.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much for
15 tolerating the inadequacies, we will look at it. You
16 may proceed, please.
17 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you Your Honours, until
18 this technical problem is offset Mr. Moran, if he wants
19 to, can take my seat and follow the transcripts on my
20 screen.
21 MR. MORAN: Your Honours, Mr. Karabdic will
22 sit down there.
23 MR. OLUJIC: I apologise, we still have a
24 minor technical detail to take care of. I apologise,
25 Your Honours. We had to take care of these technical
1 affairs so that my colleague, Mr. Salih Karabdic and
2 myself can follow through the headphones.
3 Q. Mr. Landzo, in the course of the direct, you
4 mentioned that you changed your former Defence counsel,
5 my colleague, Mr. Bracinovic. Do you think that he was
6 not defending you well?
7 A. Well, not the best defence and not the worst
8 defence, either. He has not satisfied my requests.
9 Q. Furthermore, Mr. Landzo, in the course of the
10 examination-in-chief, you also changed a second
11 colleague of mine, Mr. Ackerman; do you think that he
12 was defending you poorly, too?
13 A. I asked from him to let me make certain
14 confessions, but he didn't allow me to do that. I
15 thought that to a certain degree he should have
16 followed my desires. I didn't want this trial to go on
17 for such a long period of time. I wanted to shorten
18 it, but he was against it for an unknown reason, and
19 then simply he would not come to me to allow me to tell
20 him the facts. He was not familiar with the facts.
21 Maybe he was a good Defence counsel.
22 Q. But if I said that he was not defending you
23 well, would I be right?
24 A. Yes, that would be my general conclusion.
25 Q. Mr. Landzo, when you sat into the witness
1 bench, you said that you are doing this because other
2 witnesses have not turned up; is that true?
3 A. Excuse me could you repeat the question?
4 Q. When you sat on the witness bench, you said
5 that you decided to appear here because the other
6 witnesses, you wanted to speak on your behalf here in
7 the Court; is that true?
8 A. I have been planning this for a longer period
9 of time, but I also expected that the other guards from
10 the Celebici camp would come to tell the truth. But
11 since somebody or something prevented them from doing
12 it, I was compelled to. And I also wanted to come here
13 to sit at this bench and tell the truth.
14 Q. Tell us, Mr. Landzo, what is something or
15 someone who prevented them from coming here? Do you
16 think this is a case of conspiracy against you?
17 A. I can just tell you my opinion. I can't say
18 anything else.
19 Q. But if I said that this is maybe a case of
20 conspiracy because the witnesses did not turn up
21 because as you say somebody or something prevented them
22 from coming, would that be a conspiracy,?
23 A. I can tell you my opinion, if you want.
24 Q. Could you answer me, please?
25 A. The witnesses that were supposed to come here
1 to testify are all fact witnesses, i.e. people who were
2 in the Celebici camp who knew who was the commander and
3 knew what was going on. It seems to me that somebody
4 was against this line of thought, and that's why they
5 didn't appear, I think. That's my opinion. But I will
6 not go beyond this whole story. I think it's better
7 for me to finish with this answer.
8 Q. So, this is a case of conspiracy, isn't it?
9 A. So it seems to me.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Landzo, when describing your
11 diseases, such as asthma, bronchitis and others, you
12 said you were sick; do you often feel sick?
13 A. Well, that depends. Sometimes when the
14 weather changes, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
15 When I'm involved in certain physical activities. But
16 that's only during the night when I try to go to bed,
17 to sleep, then I have to put a bigger pillow under my
18 head so that I can use the asthma devices, the pumps
19 which help me to go asleep.
20 Q. Tell us, Mr. Landzo, as an adult person, do
21 you allow others to give you orders?
22 A. Not now.
23 Q. When you say not now, tell me when did you
24 allow others to give you orders?
25 A. Until some two years ago, perhaps. Yes, to
1 tell me what to do. Until I have sufficiently
2 stabilised my personality to be able to assume the
3 responsibility for myself, instead of others doing this
4 on my behalf.
5 Q. Do you think about yourself that you are a
6 fighter for justice?
7 A. A simple man living on this planet, I was a
8 simple soldier who thought that it was his duty to
9 defend the country, whether I am a warrior of justice
10 or not, that's not up to me to say.
11 Q. I'm satisfied with your answer, thank you.
12 Tell me, Mr. Landzo, you said that they called you by
13 the nickname Zenga, when was the first time they used
14 this nickname when addressing you?
15 A. Somewhere at the end or beginning of 1992,
16 the beginning of 1992, somewhere in February. I'm not
17 sure, because this is the period upon my return,
18 together with Cipeta from Herzegovina, that was perhaps
19 in the following few weeks that, jovial and jokingly he
20 started addressing me with the nickname.
21 Q. Yes, you were in Croatia, weren't you?
22 A. My assumption was that that was either
23 western Herzegovina or Dalmatia, I really wasn't sure
24 where I was.
25 Q. We will talk about this at a later point in
1 time. I have another question for you. Do you know
2 where this abbreviation Zenga comes from?
3 A. I know.
4 Q. From where does it come?
5 A. From Zbor Narodne Garde the legal military
6 units in Croatia that resisted the then JNA forces.
7 Q. Do you know when Zbor Narodne Garde was
8 founded?
9 A. I don't know that. I know that they existed,
10 but I don't know that.
11 Q. If I said that Zbor Narodne Garde, at that
12 time, when you were allegedly called Zenga had not
13 existed, that is that this military unit was
14 established through a decree of the Croatian
15 headquarters in the summer of 1992; would you agree
16 with me?
17 A. I told you I don't know when they were
18 founded. I just told you when they started using the
19 nickname when addressing me. I don't know when this
20 was founded. I also know that many Muslims from Bosnia
21 were members of the military, of the internal affairs
22 police and the Zenga units. You know, it's a lengthy
23 procedure at war time to pass a law, so I don't know
24 when they were established.
25 Q. At any rate, they did not exist at the time
1 -- well, very well.
2 Mr. Landzo, you said in the course of the
3 examination-in-chief where my esteemed colleague was
4 putting questions to you, you said that the HOS units
5 were fighting around Zadar; is that true?
6 A. My assumption was that it was somewhere in
7 the direction of Knin I don't know exactly where they
8 were fighting. I just related to you my assumption, my
9 thought. I was not a military person so I was not able
10 to investigate maps to know where exactly they were
11 heading, so it was just my assumption.
12 Q. Do you know what sort of units this could
13 have been?
14 A. What do you mean which?
15 Q. What units, what were they called, these
16 units?
17 A. I don't know, I don't understand your
18 question. Could you elaborate?
19 Q. You said it was somewhere around Knin or
20 Zadar that the HOS units were fighting; do you know
21 what was the name of these units?
22 A. I don't know that.
23 Q. I'm quite happy if you say I don't know.
24 A. Well, they all called them HOS Croatian
25 defence units or armed units, I don't know exactly what
1 was the name of the individual units, I really don't
2 know. Each unit had its own name.
3 Q. But you, yourself, say that you're just
4 assuming, so you're not sure?
5 A. I just know where I was, that there were
6 people wearing black uniforms that, on their sleeves
7 they had the round insignia with HOS and they also had
8 the flag of the internal affairs units, what was the
9 name of these units, I really don't know.
10 Q. Do you know the name of an officer in this
11 unit?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Landzo, you said that you stayed in a
14 camp in the Republic of Croatia, you stated this in the
15 course of the examination-in-chief, was this a camp
16 training military units, or was this a detainee camp?
17 A. You didn't understand me well, I didn't say
18 this was in Croatia, I know that where I was, the
19 houses looked like the houses that you usually find in
20 Western Herzegovina and Dalmatia; whether this was
21 Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina, I didn't know, I didn't
22 have a map, I didn't know the name of the village, I
23 didn't know the name of the town to be able to know
24 exactly where I was, so this was not in Croatia,
25 according to me, maybe it could have been in Croatia or
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but I'm not sure.
2 Q. But you were able to identify this only on
3 the basis of the stone made houses; isn't that true?
4 A. Yes, because in other parts of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina this sort of houses are usually not
6 found. This is typical of that part of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is Herzegovina and the part of
8 Croatia which is Dalmatia, where they usually build
9 houses in this way.
10 Q. If I now enumerated to you five regions,
11 provinces, where identical houses can be found, namely
12 houses made of stone, would you agree that you could
13 have at that time been at any part, any province, any
14 region of either Bosnia-Herzegovina or Croatia at that
15 time?
16 A. Could you enumerate them?
17 Q. These, this could be in western Herzegovina,
18 it could be in Leca, it could be in Imotski, it could
19 be Knin it could be in Istria, these are all stone made
20 houses that you find there. The terrain is also shaped
21 in a similar manner.
22 A. You are right, but in Knin, you know it well,
23 we couldn't go to Knin, when I use the term Dalmatia,
24 I'm referring to the area from Dubrovnik to Rijeka when
25 I say Western Herzegovina I'm referring to the
1 territory which was under the control of the legal
2 authorities, so I couldn't go to Nevesinje an or
3 Trebinje in Eastern Herzegovina because there were
4 Serbs there, so that was my assumption, we were heading
5 from Konjic to Neretva, we turned to tarmac so it must
6 have been a road from Herzegovina towards Dalmatia, it
7 couldn't have been in Eastern Herzegovina.
8 Q. In any case, you do not know, either the
9 place or the city in proximity of that camp?
10 A. I believe I have heard that close to that
11 village there was one of the state roads leading to
12 Split, but I really couldn't tell you whether that was
13 in Croatia or in Bosnia. But as I concluded on the
14 basis of the buildings, the configuration of the land,
15 this is my assumption.
16 Q. Did you ever go out of the camp?
17 A. That was a village.
18 Q. Did you come among other people?
19 A. Do you mean the inhabitants?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No, not much.
22 Q. Can you name the people, the inhabitants,
23 their names, give us their names with whom you
24 contacted?
25 A. I believe that we spent the first night, his
1 name, first name, was Jure, if I remember correctly.
2 Q. And his wife's name?
3 A. Mara or Marija, something like that, I am not
4 sure. And later on we would come and visit him and if
5 they left us out of the camp.
6 Q. How long did you remain in the camp?
7 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I believe it
8 was some 20 to 25 days.
9 Q. You say that even today in Konjic, people
10 know you by this nickname of Zenga, did you oppose
11 that, were you against this nickname?
12 A. Even if I opposed it, I couldn't make them
13 shut up or force them not to call me by that nickname.
14 Q. Tell me, please, you said that you've spent
15 some 25 days in the camp and that you also went out of
16 the camp. How is it possible that you really don't
17 know where the camp was? You know the name of the man
18 where you spent the night, you know the name of his
19 wife and you don't know which geographical location you
20 were.
21 A. I can describe in which geographical area I
22 was located and then you can conclude for yourself.
23 Q. Mr. Landzo, I said I could enumerate five
24 areas, five regions, which would be of the identical
25 configuration. I only wanted an answer from you. How
1 come that you spent --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't you think you've
3 made sufficient emphasis on that? You can move on to
4 something else.
5 MR. OLUJIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Landzo, while staying in the camp, who
7 was your first superior? What was his name?
8 A. I can enumerate the names, but I am not
9 sure. Some were called by their nicknames, so I cannot
10 tell you exactly with precision.
11 Q. So if I assert that if I were to say that you
12 cannot name the man who was your first superior, you
13 couldn't state his name and surname, am I right?
14 A. That was not an organisation. In the
15 morning, anybody would come in and wake us up, tell us
16 to rise and would take us out to a shooting range. On
17 the first day somebody came, the next day somebody
18 else, the third day, the third day. If I were to see
19 these people today, I would recognise them and I'd
20 maybe know the nicknames by which they went, but I am
21 not a computer mind.
22 Q. I am satisfied. Mr. Landzo, do you know who
23 was the first superior of the superior? What was his
24 name?
25 A. Well, I can assume --
1 Q. No, I want you to say only what you know.
2 A. I am not sure.
3 Q. What rank did the commander have?
4 A. They called him Captain, but I saw no
5 insignia, no ranks on his uniform. These were not
6 regular formations as was the case with the JNA on the
7 other hand.
8 Q. Are you sure he was called Captain?
9 A. Yes. That is what Jure told us. He told us
10 to go to the Captain. I don't know whether that was
11 just an expression he used or if he really had that
12 rank.
13 Q. If I were to assert that in the Zbor Narodne
14 Garde, nobody could be called a Captain, would I be
15 right in that?
16 A. I didn't say I was in that, in the ZNG. I
17 said I was in a village where the HOS unit was
18 stationed and I didn't mention Zenga.
19 Q. If I were to state that among the HOS units
20 nobody would turn to his commander with the rank of
21 Captain, would I be right?
22 A. I heard that in Bosnia and in Herzegovina, I
23 heard that some new ranks were introduced and Croatian
24 terms were used for the ranks, but I am telling you
25 what that man told me. I am not saying this is the
1 truth. But that is what the man told us; to go to the
2 Captain.
3 Q. Do you know the precise date when you came to
4 the camp?
5 A. I really cannot tell you that.
6 Q. Do you know the month?
7 A. Approximately, if you want me to tell you
8 that.
9 Q. No, only if you remember.
10 A. No, I can tell you approximately because the
11 weather, it was warm, the period of warm weather.
12 Q. Whom do you remember among your peers with
13 whom you stayed in the camp 25 days? Can you remember
14 these names and surnames and enumerate them?
15 A. Two or three names I remember. There was a
16 group. They told me that they came from Central
17 Bosnia. One's name was Osman, a Muslim. And the
18 second one was Dragan and a third one Goran. These are
19 the names that I remember.
20 Q. Can you remember any surnames?
21 A. No, because we called each other by our first
22 names. At present, I remember the surnames of some
23 friends of mine with whom I spent ten or fifteen years,
24 and not people with whom I spent 20 or 25 days.
25 Q. How were the orders issued?
1 A. I told you it wasn't organised. They would
2 just tell us, somebody would come and say, get ready,
3 get your clothing ready, get your arms, weapons ready.
4 And then they would order us to begin shooting. They
5 would set a target, a bottle or a draw a circle on a
6 piece of paper. It wasn't an organised camp. And that
7 was my conclusion. And if somebody came, they would
8 take him in, so that people would have their training.
9 So there were no guard points. There was nothing like
10 that.
11 Q. You said in the examination-in-chief that
12 heads were severed in that camp, is that true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The name, names and surnames of those who
15 perpetrated that?
16 A. I cannot tell you that. I can give you the
17 nickname, one nickname.
18 Q. No, I am satisfied with this. Do you know
19 the names and surnames of the killed?
20 A. No, we were told they were Serbs. They could
21 have been Croats or Muslims, but we were told they were
22 Serbs. But, of course, you cannot tell by their
23 looks.
24 Q. Mr. Landzo, in what capacity did you come to
25 Celebici? As a soldier or as a guard?
1 A. I was told to go there as a guard in the
2 garrison where the young soldiers would be trained,
3 where I would be a guard for a shorter period of time.
4 Q. So, I would be right in saying that you
5 haven't come to Celebici as a soldier?
6 A. We were -- I came as a soldier, but in
7 Celebici, I was given the task of being a guard. I
8 could have been appointed as the commander. But I came
9 as a soldier, but there I was given the duty of guard
10 duty.
11 Q. You already had military experience at the
12 time?
13 A. Yes, I knew how to work with weapons, how to
14 use weapons.
15 Q. Is it true that Mr. Zdravko Mucic had no
16 military experience?
17 A. How should I know? Probably he served in the
18 JNA, but on the basis of his age, I would expect that,
19 but what really he did...
20 Q. But it is true that he was neither a member
21 of HVO, the units of the Ministry of Interior, the
22 reserve units, et cetera?
23 A. I don't know that. I never saw any insignia
24 on his uniform.
25 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you, did he have
1 any military rank?
2 A. No, at least not anything visible on the
3 uniform. That is --
4 Q. That is how we recognise the ranks, isn't
5 it?
6 A. No, he didn't have that.
7 Q. Mr. Landzo, you have mentioned that you acted
8 according to the rules of the service and that when you
9 came to Celebici, you were told not to think and not to
10 ask questions, but to execute orders, is that true?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Landzo, can you tell us any rules or law
13 by which this guard service operated?
14 A. I want to make it clear. We did not have
15 written orders. We had orally stated orders to which
16 we had to abide.
17 Q. So there were no written rules for your
18 service?
19 A. I have not seen them, nor has anybody ever
20 shown them to me.
21 Q. In Celebici, did soldiers come also from
22 other areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes, two or three came from Modrica, that's
24 Northern Bosnia and then refugees from Eastern
25 Herzegovina, Nevesinje, I think they were guards later
1 on. And then I believe two or three from Gacko,
2 Eastern Herzegovina. But they stayed only a short
3 period of time while I was there. But later on I heard
4 that they would stay a bit longer in the camp.
5 Q. Mr. Landzo, in Celebici, you also had an
6 infirmary, is that true?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In view of your many diseases, did you ever
9 go to them for medical check-ups? You've said you've
10 had frequent illnesses, what do you mean by that? You
11 said you are frequently ill, but you have many
12 diseases.
13 A. I only have asthma and it's a lifelong
14 disease, which I have been having. But I asked for
15 help in the Konjic Hospital. I had to, for example,
16 receive an injection in the vein. The doctors in
17 Celebici didn't have these injections, these drugs, and
18 they couldn't help me there.
19 Q. So I was right in saying that you were not
20 asking for medical assistance in the Celebici
21 infirmary?
22 A. On a few occasions I did take sleeping
23 pills. They gave them to me. I felt much more relaxed
24 later on. Because during the night after a shift it's
25 difficult to go to sleep, particularly if one had three
1 or four shifts a day.
2 Q. Mr. Landzo, during the examination-in-chief
3 you stated that on the basis of orders you acted where
4 detainees were beaten, but not beaten on the head. In
5 order to avoid any bruises on the head they were the
6 lower part of the body?
7 A. Yes, if the order was to kill somebody, you
8 had to do it by beating; namely, you were not allowed
9 to kill somebody with firearms, but you had to beat
10 him, but without injuring the head. Don't ask me why,
11 I just did what I was ordered to do.
12 Q. And who issued the order, this type of
13 beating which would be invisible?
14 A. Either Mucic or Delic, but I am not sure.
15 But probably it was Delic. It's more probable that it
16 would be Delic, but I am not sure. But I am sure that
17 it was somebody from the camp administration.
18 Q. Mr. Landzo, do you know what was the rule of
19 your guards that stated that guards are allowed to beat
20 up the detainees?
21 A. I don't know. I never served in the JNA to
22 know the rules. I just followed the rules I was told
23 to obey. Whether these were the rules of the guard
24 service or anyone else, I don't know. I wasn't in a
25 position to decide or to tell anybody about them.
1 Q. Are you saying that in Celebici the JNA rules
2 concerning beatings and guard duty applied?
3 A. I don't know what were the rules that were
4 applied. Could have been those of the former JNA.
5 Could have been somebody's personal rules, I don't
6 know. I know that I, myself, and all the other guards
7 would abide by the rules. We had to do it. Who
8 adopted them? Who these rules were invented by before
9 the war or during the war, I don't know. We were just
10 told that we simply have no right to make up these
11 rules, but rather, to abide by them.
12 Q. Do you know who were the guards who, together
13 with you, would beat up the detainees?
14 A. In most cases, I could tell you. I can just
15 tell you that there was somebody, Ibro or Olujic,
16 something like that. I don't know the other guards'
17 names, but the other guards who were from Konjic, who
18 came together with me, I can give you their names.
19 Q. When they would come and say that there was
20 no such order to beat up people so that bruises could
21 not be detected, would they be right?
22 A. No, I would very much like them to come. I
23 asked them to come, but they refused.
24 Q. Mr. Landzo, you say that when you received
25 these orders, you received them orally, if I understand
1 you well, or rather, that they were never given to you
2 in writing; is that true?
3 A. All orders I personally received were oral.
4 When somebody had to be killed, the person's name would
5 be put down on to a piece of paper, but I have never
6 received any order in writing. I was just told in a
7 very inhumane manner, when somebody says, "I want to
8 see this person go with his feet forward in the morning
9 through the gate, the camp," then obviously, this is
10 not something normal.
11 Q. When you were receiving these orders, was any
12 other guard present?
13 A. I can't remember, but it's possible. You
14 know, I was not alone there in the camp. There were
15 other guards, but then when I was summoned to the
16 office, then I was alone because not everybody could
17 just go into the office, only when you were summoned
18 were you allowed to go into the office.
19 Q. Can you give me the first name and family
20 name of such guards?
21 A. I can give you the names of some of these
22 guards. I cannot tell you who of the guards was
23 present when I was given a specific order. I know that
24 there were guards moving around, either outside the
25 headquarters building or in the kitchen. There was
1 always a guard around.
2 Q. Tell me, you said that you would beat people,
3 hit people, do you think that that was right and honest
4 on your part?
5 A. If you ask me what is my opinion now then I
6 will give it to you. Now I know, now I understand that
7 this was not right. It was enough for them to be
8 detained. But, at that time, I thought and I acted in
9 the belief that I have to follow orders because I was
10 really not allowed to think a lot because, as I said
11 before, they had told us, you are not here to think,
12 but to execute orders.
13 So I would never really go to the person who
14 issued an order to me and say, sir, I don't know think
15 this is right. I was not allowed to do that, I had to
16 do what I was told. And now, I think that this was
17 very wrong because it was enough for these people to be
18 detained, let alone afflict on them things that have
19 been inflicted on them.
20 Q. In the direct, concerning Counts 11 and 12 of
21 the charges, here we are referring to Mr. Slavko Susic
22 that was supposed to be put into Hangar No. 9. You
23 said that you hit him twice at the entrance gate to
24 Hangar No. 9; is this true?
25 A. Tunnel No. 9, I hit him twice, but other
1 guards hit him more often. I was not standing in a
2 position from which I could really hit him hard, but
3 there were other guards standing next to me. I did hit
4 him twice, that's true.
5 Q. In the direct you did not mention that you
6 were ordered to beat him; is that true?
7 A. If I got the order to hit him, I would have
8 hit him more often. It was actually just pushing, it
9 wasn't really hitting him. Because when the others
10 started hitting him, I was told to take him to the
11 hangar and not to hit him. So I was supposed to take
12 him there. If I had been given the order to hit him,
13 then it would have been a different story. I was just
14 doing what I was told to do.
15 Q. But that's not what I asked you, Mr. Landzo.
16 I said the following: In the direct you said that the
17 order was to take Mr. Susic to Hangar 9. And in the
18 course of the direct, you also said that you hit him
19 twice at the entrance gate to Hangar No. 9. However,
20 when answering in the course of the direct, you never
21 said that you were ordered to hit him. My question is
22 just answer with a yes or no.
23 A. No, I was not given the order, nobody asked
24 me, had asked me whether I was given this order. I
25 don't know how you can understand it, but these were
1 really not any serious hits that could injure him. I
2 couldn't get directly to him because there were three,
3 four guards standing in front of him. I couldn't just
4 grab him and take him to the hangar. I had to push him
5 because I couldn't grab his hand.
6 Q. As far as Counts 24 and 26 go, concerning
7 torture of Spasoje Miljevic, in the direct, yesterday,
8 you said you hit him at least once because he took the
9 food away from the rest of the detainees. In the
10 course of the examination-in-chief, you never said that
11 you were ordered to hit him.
12 A. I slapped him, maybe I was not precise. It
13 was a slap on the face and not a hit. Because how can
14 you explain to an old man in front of you, crying, who
15 a night before was hit in his head and the person who
16 took away food from him standing next to him, how can
17 you explain to him that the guy who took away the food
18 from the older man was right. So I slapped Mr.
19 Miljevic to show older detainee that the same law
20 applies to old. But I didn't hit him, I just slapped
21 him.
22 Q. Do you think that slapping is not beating
23 up?
24 A. One slap on the face? I wouldn't say that.
25 I mean, it was done simply to comply with the old man's
1 insistence on justice be done. Imagine what would have
2 happened if I reported Miljevic, if this happened, then
3 I guess Miljevic would never have been able to come
4 here and testify. It all finished and ended with a
5 single slap. And, in a way, I wanted to satisfy the
6 old man's desire to bring peace to the hangar because
7 it would have been, perhaps, easier to me to go to the
8 headquarters and report Miljevic taking food away. Had
9 I done this, Miljevic, would never be able, I guess, to
10 come here and testify.
11 Q. Have you reported the case?
12 A. Not me personally. I thought that this was
13 the end of it.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, Mr. Landzo, what
15 was the beginning and the end of your working day in
16 Celebici? When you started and when you finished your
17 duty.
18 A. That depends on whether I was on duty or
19 not. For example, sometimes I had to be on duty from
20 4.00 a.m. to 8. Sometimes from 8.00 to noon.
21 Sometimes from noon to 6. I can't really give you a
22 specific answer.
23
24
25
1 Q. Yesterday in the direct, concerning counts 36
2 and 37 of the indictment, concerning Nedjko (phoen)
3 Draganic you said that Draganic was tied up and beaten
4 up, he couldn't get up and the guard told you to lift
5 him up and that he couldn't get up himself.
6 Furthermore, you said that you hit him without having
7 received an order to do so; is that true?
8 A. I didn't say that he was tied up. I just
9 know that he had a cord on his left hand. I didn't see
10 him tied up, I just saw a cord, a rope on his left
11 hand. I got to him, slightly kicked him with my foot
12 to make him get up. I did it three times. Then he
13 couldn't get up, so I sort of pushed him up, but I
14 didn't really hit him. I just helped him to get up.
15 Q. In the direct, you also stated that the
16 people who would come to visit the detainees, that they
17 could not see them at fence because that was not
18 allowed, but that you gave the permission to
19 Mr. Miljevic to see his mother who arrived there; is
20 that true?
21 A. Did I say yesterday that I personally gave
22 him the permission?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I was on the mound on my guard post when this
25 old woman came to the fence. She was talking to Dedic
1 Osman. And Dedic Osman asked me what are you doing? I
2 told him that the woman was crying, that she didn't
3 know whether he was alive or dead. And she said,
4 imagine you were in his place, imagine your mother came
5 here. And we decided, not me, but the two of us, we
6 were talking to each other and we thought we would be
7 allowed to take him for a few seconds to the entrance
8 gate to let the mother see him.
9 And Dedic Osman was standing along the fence
10 to see whether anybody was coming or not, because that
11 was not allowed. We did this in the sense of sympathy,
12 we are not robots, our heart is not made of stone.
13 There was this woman here who started crying.
14 Q. But you said that you always followed the
15 orders. You even used the phrase "It was not up to us
16 to think but to execute orders"?
17 A. Yes, that's true. Maybe this is what I'm
18 guilty of.
19 Q. So, can we say that you deviated from orders
20 while you were staying in the Celebici camp from June
21 to the end of July, as you say?
22 A. Well, there were these small details for
23 which you didn't have to receive an order. For
24 example, if a detainee wanted to go to the latrine, I
25 didn't have to run to headquarters and ask for an order
1 every time, to ask either the deputy, the warden or the
2 commander. I could decide on my own.
3 I would not let Miljevic to the fence. I
4 just let him come as far as the entrance gate so that
5 his mother could see him.
6 There were these minor deviations, not only
7 on my part, but on the part of the other guards. This
8 is life, you can't be perfect. Everybody has
9 sympathies, has feelings. No matter how far I tried to
10 be a perfect soldier, I have feelings, I have a heart,
11 and sometimes it would happen that these feelings would
12 get the best of me.
13 Q. Were you proud of everything you had done at
14 Celebici at that time?
15 A. Proud?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. I thought that was my duty. I was given an
18 order, I had to execute. Whether I was proud, no. I
19 was not (sic) proud to wear the uniform and the rifle,
20 because I know that when you have a rifle you can kill.
21 I felt safer, safer as far as my family, because I
22 thought I could defend my family, but I certainly
23 didn't feel proud.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Landzo, thank you, Your
25 Honours, I have no more questions.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
2 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, it will take us some
3 time to get organised.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you have some
5 time.
6 MS. McMURREY: If I might bring a mistake in
7 to the Court's attention. I believe the answer
8 Mr. Landzo said when he was asked if he was proud to
9 wear a uniform, he said he was proud to wear the
10 uniform, and in the transcript it said he was not
11 proud. So I hope that that can be corrected.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you.
13 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court, I think
14 we're organised.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
16 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much.
17 Q. Good morning Mr. Landzo.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. You've heard me talking to witnesses a whole
20 lot of times, so you know I'm going to ask you to
21 listen to the question, answer the question out loud
22 and answer the question I ask. Can we do that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In fact, you've heard all the testimony here,
25 haven't you? Essentially every word of it, you may
1 have missed a couple of days because, for one reason or
2 another, but you heard basically every word of
3 testimony in this trial; haven't you?
4 A. Yes, I was present and I did hear. But
5 sometimes I was concentrated and listened to it in a
6 concentrated fashion, but occasionally I wasn't, and I
7 didn't follow.
8 MR. MORAN: Are the transcripts on your
9 computer, that little laptop you bring here?
10 A. Yes. Yes, but I cannot use it in the same
11 fashion as you do.
12 Q. But you have access to all of the
13 transcripts. That's the question I've asked.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You don't like me very much, do you?
16 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to
17 object.
18 JUDGE JAN: This is not relevant.
19 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think I can make
20 it relevant.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Don't make your
22 questioning personal.
23 MR. MORAN: Okay.
24 Q. A couple of weeks ago when we were upstairs
25 and your witness, the psychiatric witnesses were
1 testifying, you made a threat to me, didn't you,
2 through your lawyer, about my cross-examination?
3 Now was that a threat of getting on the
4 witness stand to trash my client, or was that a threat
5 of physical violence?
6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to
7 object. If he is saying there was a threat made, I
8 would like to know what he is alleging because I'm not
9 aware of any threat that was made through his lawyer to
10 Mr. Moran.
11 MR. MORAN: It was carried to me while we
12 standing in the little alcove near that elevators where
13 we went up and down at lunch one day.
14 MS. McMURREY: I'm going to object, because I
15 don't know what he's talking about.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, kindly go to
17 the real issue.
18 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, fine.
19 Q. You were here when Dr. Gripon testified
20 yesterday, weren't you, Mr. Landzo?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you heard his testimony. It was probably
23 pretty hard for you to listen to, wasn't it?
24 A. Yes, I did hear him, but it wasn't hard. He
25 does, did his job, you're doing your job, and I'm also
1 here to say what I believe should be said.
2 Q. And you heard Dr. Gripon testify that people
3 with antisocial personality disorder, like you, will --
4 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to
5 object to him harassing the witness. When he says
6 "like you", if he has a question about antisocial, can
7 he phrase it not intimidating the witness like he's
8 trying to do?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Kindly put your
10 questions.
11 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. As I said, you heard Dr. Gripon testify, one,
13 that you have antisocial personality disorder, and two,
14 that people with antisocial personality disorder will
15 lie to accomplish their goals. You heard that; didn't
16 you?
17 JUDGE JAN: Often, he said.
18 MR. MORAN: That's true, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE JAN: Ask the question with that
20 qualification.
21 Q. That they will often lie to achieve their
22 goals. You heard that didn't you?
23 A. Yes, I did hear, but let me answer to that.
24 I have come here to tell the truth, but if this truth
25 does not meet the needs of your client or anybody else,
1 that doesn't mean that I lie.
2 Q. Okay, that's what we're here for, is the
3 truth. Let's talk about some truth.
4 Yesterday on your direct you testified about
5 an incident where you had an apartment, and you had
6 gotten some vacant apartment you moved into and changed
7 the locks, and these owners apparently were back in
8 there and you went in and fired a, fired into the
9 ceiling; do you remember that testimony?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is that the same incident that you told Dr.
12 Lagazzi about, the first time you talked to him, when
13 you said you threw a hand grenade into an apartment
14 where there were some women? Or was that a different
15 episode?
16 A. I never, and to anybody did I ever state that
17 I threw a hand grenade, because nobody would survive,
18 they would be dead. I said to him and others that I
19 shot three or four times from the rifle, three or four
20 times in the ceiling.
21 If I threw a hand grenade I wouldn't be alive
22 today, and neither would anybody else be. I know what
23 happened, and I know what I said.
24 Q. So, if Dr. Lagazzi in his report dated 15
25 November, 1996, which is in evidence as D61/4 said,
1 quote, "He also remembered that he was promised a house
2 to move into, but when he arrived at the door drunk he
3 found four girls who had found shelter inside. He was
4 angry, so he threw a hand grenade in the entrance and
5 fired a burst of fire from the machine gun, lightly
6 injuring the girls who escaped into an another part of
7 the apartment". Dr. Lagazzi, if he said you said that,
8 he would be wrong; wouldn't he?
9 A. Well, you would have to ask the translator,
10 and not Dr. Lagazzi or me. I know what I said and I
11 know Dr. Lagazzi will tell you what he understood. So
12 probably you would have to ask the person who was
13 translating on that occasion. Because I'm sure that he
14 wrote in the report what was being translated, and I
15 know what I've said on the occasion, so you have to ask
16 the person who was translating at the time.
17 I cannot say whether Dr. Lagazzi is right or
18 wrong. I know what I stated, and I stand firm on that.
19 Q. So, either Dr. Lagazzi or --?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think he answered
21 that. Move on.
22 Q. Is that the same incident, the incident you
23 discussed yesterday, is that the same incident where
24 there was a young man in a flat, in a flat occupied by
25 a young man? That's the one you were talking about;
1 right?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. You testified yesterday that there were two
4 incidents of violence after you left Celebici, and the
5 apartment incident was one of them. And you said there
6 was another one with your brother. We had a break,
7 coffee break, and nobody ever followed it up, and I'm
8 going to ask you this: Is that incident with your
9 brother, is that the one that, where you went into the
10 bar and had the drinks and when the bill came, rather
11 than pay the bill you fired up into the ceiling? Is it
12 that the other incident of violence you were talking
13 about?
14 A. I never said that I was firing in the ceiling
15 because the bill arrived. It's true that there was
16 this incident with my brother, but that I'd be shooting
17 in a restaurant because of the bill? I don't remember
18 of saying that, ever.
19 Q. Why were you shooting in the restaurant,
20 then, if it wasn't over the bill? Just to do it?
21 A. Can you, could you maybe read it to me out?
22 Maybe I said it, but I cannot remember. Could you read
23 it out to me?
24 Q. Do you remember an incident, do you remember
25 telling Dr. Gripon, who I think is still sitting out
1 there, about an incident when you went into a bar with
2 some other soldiers after you left Celebici, and
3 drinking, and then when you left, firing into the
4 ceiling? Do you remember telling Dr. Gripon about
5 that?
6 A. I cannot remember. Maybe I said it, but if
7 you remind me, if you read it out to me. I had a
8 number of meetings with Dr. Gripon, we talked on many
9 subjects. We spoke about these incidents.
10 Q. Did the incident occur, Mr. Landzo?
11 A. Possibly. I cannot remember. I know that
12 there was that incident in the apartment and with my
13 brother, the incident with my brother, but about this
14 one, I do not remember. If you can tell me.
15 Q. What was the incident with your brother? I
16 was asking if that was the incident with your brother.
17 A. No, no, no it's not that.
18 Q. What was the incident with your brother,
19 then, the incident of violence? Tell the Judges what
20 it was.
21 A. I found this apartment for myself, and I
22 accepted my brother and some three or four friends from
23 the military police to live with me. However, they
24 sold all of the furniture from the building. Later on
25 the police came and they gave me a decision that I
1 should move out of that apartment.
2 Then I moved back to my father's place, and I
3 came home from my duty as, in military policeman, I
4 came very tired. And let me say that while I was still
5 living in that apartment, my brother would always bring
6 in the evening friends, there was a lot of music and
7 they were having fun, I never could rest.
8 And when I returned back home to my father's
9 place, once I came home I wanted to rest and go to
10 sleep. This brother came home with his friends, I
11 asked him then to not come at the time, that he should
12 come a bit later, but he pushed me. And in my reaction
13 it wasn't with intention, it was a matter of seconds, I
14 shot a few shots in the room.
15 Q. So, this is a second incident in an
16 apartment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who ordered you to fire those shots the
19 second time?
20 A. Nobody.
21 Q. Who ordered you to fire the shots the first
22 time?
23 A. Nobody. I felt threatened. I felt that my
24 life was threatened. That is the period when I was
25 working in the military police, and the first case,
1 when I came to the apartment, there were three young
2 men in uniform with weapons. And I felt threatened,
3 and these were warning shots. I didn't want to injure
4 them. And obviously that is why I also shot in the
5 ceiling, in order not to injure them.
6 Q. Now, those were the only two incidents of
7 violence after you left Celebici; is that right?
8 A. After leaving Celebici?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes, as far as I can remember at this point.
11 Q. Well, how about that incident you talked to
12 Dr. Lagazzi about, where you and some of your
13 co-fighters got drunk and hung a woman by her heels
14 from the top of a tall building because she refused to
15 go with you? Would you consider that to be an act of
16 violence?
17 A. I held her? I know that that happened. I
18 was present at that occasion, but I couldn't hold her.
19 I was present in that group, but I wasn't holding her
20 by the feet.
21 Q. We may have had a translation problem and I
22 don't speak enough Bosnian to know. But the word you,
23 Y-O-U in English can be singular and plural, and if it
24 was translated singular it was meant to be plural, it
25 was meant to be you as the group of fighters. So, I
1 didn't say you personally held her. You being you and
2 your co-fighters. That was not -- ?
3 JUDGE JAN: Why do you use the word
4 co-fighters? Say companions.
5 MR. MORAN: I'm using the word co-fighters
6 because that's the word Dr. Lagazzi used in his report
7 on page 17 of exhibit D61/4.
8 Q. You wouldn't consider that to be an incident
9 of violence, then?
10 A. Yes, it was, but I didn't take part in it.
11 As you, in order to understand the situation, I must
12 explain to you what people, type of people were
13 involved, and then what state they were in, in order to
14 make you understand the entire situation. It's
15 difficult for someone who comes from a normal situation
16 to understand the situation we had in our case.
17 Q. Okay.
18 A. Because at the time a pebble on the road, was
19 more valuable than human life.
20 Q. Who was it that ordered you in that incident,
21 with the girl hanging by her feet?
22 JUDGE JAN: He said he did not do it himself,
23 so the question of somebody ordering him does not
24 arise.
25 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
1 Q. How about an incident where some girl looked
2 you up and promised that if you killed her father they,
3 actually I think the phrase Dr. Lagazzi used is
4 "promised herself and her sister to him," him being
5 you, if he, you, killed their father, who was violent
6 and abusive, and that when you found him in a drunken
7 state, you only injured him. Would you consider that
8 to be an act of violence?
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did he remember that
10 incident you're asking about?
11 Q. Do you remember that incident? Let's start
12 off with that.
13 A. Yes, I know that these two girls and their
14 mother asked me to do that. However, when the shooting
15 did take place there were ten who shot him. So, it's a
16 question who shot him. That was from the railroad
17 station, the Serbs were leaving. And from the
18 battalion command we were told to shoot warning shots
19 to all people who were moving.
20 Q. So, when Dr. Lagazzi says in his report, the
21 last part of the sentence being, "and so he found him
22 in a drunken state but only injured him," Dr. Lagazzi,
23 that must have been a mistranslation of some kind?
24 Another mistranslation? Is that right?
25 A. I don't know whether it's a mistake, I know
1 what I've said. I know when the man was injured. I
2 later on visited him in the hospital. And it wasn't
3 only I who was shooting, there were, we were all
4 shooting.
5 Nobody was allowed to move along that road,
6 be it Serbs, Muslims or Bosnians, and nobody was
7 allowed because many had been killed along that road.
8 It's true there were drunken people on the front-line at
9 that time.
10 Q. So that incident was just in the line of
11 duty.
12 A. You would have to ask them what I said. I
13 didn't want to do it, because if I wanted to do it, I
14 would do it in the city and not there. I've never had
15 any intention to shoot him. We only had to carry out
16 the order of stopping people from moving along that
17 road. That was the situation.
18 Many people were injured, there was shooting
19 going on, also from the side of the HVO and so on.
20 Q. So that incident, Mr. Landzo, was in the line
21 of duty as a soldier, right? Is that what you're
22 saying?
23 A. Yes, yes, I was on the front-line at that
24 time.
25 Q. Do you remember an incident, sir, where you
1 came across several of your co-fighters that had found
2 a Serb who had gotten some cigarettes as a gift from a
3 butcher and they were arguing among themselves over who
4 was going to get the cigarettes? Do you remember that
5 incident?
6 A. Where did that happen?
7 Q. I can tell you what -- ?
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object, he is
9 misleading the witness. The incident that he's
10 referring to occurred in Celebici, and he is talking
11 post Celebici violence, so I would like them to give
12 him a time frame, for the witness.
13 MR. MORAN: Let me read you what Dr. Lagazzi
14 says. And this is on page 18 of exhibit D61/4. I'll
15 read it out, and if would you like I will have it
16 brought over to you.
17 Dr. Lagazzi says, quote, "As an example, he
18 described an episode in which he was involved, some of
19 his co-fighters had found a Serb who had received
20 several packets of cigarettes as a gift from a rich
21 butcher, and they argued among themselves, beating him
22 in the meantime, in order to establish who should get
23 those cigarettes. Esad tried to calm down the
24 colleagues by dividing the cigarettes among them and
25 then he walked away. He had later gone back on his own
1 and started beating the man for no reason, though
2 neither seriously injuring nor killing him."
3 Okay, now start off, was that incident in
4 Celebici or was it post Celebici, or do you not recall
5 the incident?
6 A. I would be distributing cigarettes to my
7 colleagues? I never did it, because I never smoked,
8 and I can't recall having done that.
9 Q. Okay, so, either you forgot, or there is some
10 other problem with Dr. Lagazzi's report, and you just
11 don't recall the incident?
12 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I object to him
13 putting words in his mouth. If he lets him respond he
14 will explain what the circumstances were.
15 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, this is
16 cross-examination and I believe I'm allowed to ask
17 leading questions.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The Trial Chamber will
19 rise for now.
20 JUDGE JAN: What she is saying is misleading,
21 not leading.
22 MS. McMURREY: Thank you, Judge Jan.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We will return at noon.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
1 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
2 are still under oath.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed.
4 MR. MORAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Landzo, both over the break we just had
6 and the breaks yesterday, did you discuss your
7 testimony with anybody?
8 A. I talked to my Defence lawyer.
9 Q. The question was, did you discuss your
10 testimony with anybody? I didn't ask if you were --
11 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, is he asking for
12 a violation of attorney/client privileged information?
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, why don't you let
14 him ask his questions. He merely asked a simple
15 question. If he discussed it with anybody, he would
16 say so.
17 MS. McMURREY: If he discussed it with his
18 lawyer, that still is part of privileged information
19 and confidential.
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, if he said so. That
21 would be understood. Would you please leave him to
22 conduct his case.
23 MR. MORAN:
24 Q. Mr. Landzo, the question was, did you discuss
25 your testimony with anybody? That's a yes or no.
1 A. Yes, with my lawyer.
2 Q. That's fine. Thank you very much. You've
3 now answered the question. Now, let's go on to
4 something else.
5 Mr. Landzo, again, just reminding you of Dr.
6 Gripon's testimony about goals and things. What's your
7 goal here in testifying?
8 A. To feel once again like a human being. To
9 tell you the truth, I came here to tell the truth
10 because I want to be a human being. And if you are
11 aiming at my release from the prison, this is not what
12 I am after. I want to be punished for what I am guilty
13 of. I don't want to be punished for what I am not
14 guilty for. I am not afraid of it.
15 Q. In fact, you expect to be sent to a prison in
16 either in Western Europe or in the United States,
17 preferably the United States; isn't that right?
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
19 object to this line of questioning. It's totally to
20 the guilt and innocence stage of this trial.
21 Irrelevant.
22 MR. MORAN: I think it's goes to the mind set
23 of this defendant.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You ask him your
25 question.
1 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. In fact, you want to serve any sentence you
3 have in Western Europe or the United States, preferably
4 the United States; isn't that right?
5 A. I am examining this possibility. If I have
6 to be sentenced to prison, I would like to use this
7 time for education. I would like it to be a country
8 that will allow me to use my prison sentence to spend
9 it to learn something for tomorrow so that when I am
10 released to be able to live in the future. Whether
11 this is Western Europe or the United States of America,
12 that's of the least importance. I am just heading for
13 a country that will allow me to do that if that's
14 feasible. I want the best future possible. I don't
15 want to be what I used to be, somebody without anything
16 and nobody.
17 Q. After your sentence is up, whenever that
18 would be, you expect to continue to reside in the
19 United States; right?
20 A. That's what I never said. I was thinking
21 about this desire to live there because it's a big
22 country. It has enormous opportunities. People who
23 don't know me. I could start my life from afresh. The
24 United States of America, or Canada, or those countries
25 that are far away from Europe and, specifically, far
1 away from Bosnia. Because I certainly don't want to go
2 back to the old. If that is a sin, then I am a sinner.
3 Q. You came up on this idea of moving to the
4 United States and becoming a permanent resident all on
5 your own?
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He didn't say that.
7 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, let me put a
8 question mark at the end of that.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you're putting a
10 question, that's a different thing, but he did not say
11 that.
12 MR. MORAN:
13 Q. And did you come up with this idea of moving
14 to the United States all on your own?
15 JUDGE JAN: He is not specifying the United
16 States.
17 MR. MORAN:
18 Q. Or Canada, all on your own?
19 A. I talked to my lawyer about the
20 possibilities, what the possibilities are to spend my
21 sentence in the United States of America, in Canada, in
22 Sweden. So I was thinking along these lines. I would
23 opt for the United States of America because there is
24 an enormous opportunity for a better life there, but
25 that's not to mean that I want to go there.
1 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Probably be good in a
2 new society. I think you should move on.
3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Landzo, very first thing, off the bat
5 this morning, you were talking about Mr. Brackovic.
6 This is just my notes and I may not be exactly correct,
7 okay. And, if I am not, just stop me and correct me.
8 But my notes said that; you didn't get the best
9 Defence, it wasn't not the worse Defence and he had not
10 satisfied your request. Now, you never said what the
11 request was. Was the request that he pay you money?
12 Is that the request you were talking about?
13 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am still going
14 to object, this is irrelevant.
15 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, I think given
16 some of his statements yesterday, and that statement
17 this morning, at least to that extent, I think he may
18 have waived the attorney/client privilege. In fact, I
19 recall, and I can find it if you give me a minute. I
20 can recall standing up yesterday when he made some
21 charges against Mr. Brackovic and suggesting that he
22 may have been on some pretty thin ice as it applies to
23 the privilege and Mr. Brackovic.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: His evidence was fairly
25 clear. This relationship with Brackovic and why he
1 fired him. It was very clear. But it included a
2 portion of his enemies to his family. He said that.
3 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour. And the
4 question that I had was that the request that Mr.
5 Brackovic did not comply with that he was discussing
6 this morning. Did he mention this morning. Right out,
7 first thing. And --
8 THE WITNESS: There were two reasons, not
9 just one. If you will recall my testimony of
10 yesterday, I mentioned two reasons, not just one.
11 MR. MORAN:
12 Q. Yes. One of the reasons, as I recall from
13 your testimony yesterday, you noticed that Mr.
14 Brackovic was having problems with Ms. McMurrey.
15 That's on page 15110 of the transcript, lines 18
16 through 23. And the second thing you said was, that he
17 wouldn't pay you money because he said it was
18 unethical. Now, this morning you said; he was not the
19 best Defence and not the worse Defence and he had not
20 satisfied my request. And what I am asking is, is the
21 request that he did not satisfy, that he refused to pay
22 you money? That's a pretty simple question.
23 A. That is not the only reason. I will give you
24 the reasons from the very beginning. I asked him to
25 let me tell the truth and he said, no, that's not in
1 the interest of the country for truth to be told here
2 if you want me to tell you the truth. I will not keep
3 quiet because I don't know --
4 MS. McMURREY: Right now I believe that Mr.
5 Moran is maybe going to approach the breaching of the
6 confidentiality with Mr. Brackovic and Mr. Landzo. I
7 don't believe that the Court has ruled yet that that
8 privilege has been --
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Is that not part of his
10 evidence yesterday?
11 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, the exact quote and
12 it's page 15110, lines --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You were in court
14 yesterday when this evidence was given. I am sure you
15 knew about it. You knew when he gave the evidence.
16 You approved of it.
17 MR. MORAN: And, Your Honour, just for the
18 record on pages 15116 and 15117, starting at line 17,
19 the record reflects that I stood up and said, "Excuse
20 me, Your Honours, I think we're going, we may take the
21 position at some future date that this defendant is in
22 the process of waiving his attorney/client privilege
23 with Mr. Brackovic. And we may be calling Mr.
24 Brackovic as a witness. I think at this point the
25 Court might want to, at least inform the witness, that
1 he is on thin ice as to the attorney/client privilege."
2 And the record reflects that the Presiding Judge, Judge
3 Karibi-Whyte said, "That's correct. I think Mr.
4 Brackovic is not represented here and accusations
5 having been made against him, his family, his counsel
6 so he needs to protect his interests in this regard."
7 It's not something, Your Honour, that anybody should be
8 surprised about today.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think counsel was here
10 when the allegation was made and if counsel did not
11 even want allegation to be made, she should have
12 rejected it from the beginning because it wasn't fair
13 on Mr. Brackovic and I expect he should be protected.
14 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, and I am not
15 sure, the attorney/client privilege varies from
16 jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But in the jurisdictions
17 that I am familiar with, the privilege is gone to the
18 extent that a client accuses his lawyer of misconduct.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: In fact, you don't talk
20 about privilege when the witness himself volunteers
21 these statements.
22 MR. MORAN: That's correct, Your Honour. The
23 privilege, of course, belonging to Mr. Landzo, not to
24 any of his lawyers.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
1 MR. MORAN:
2 Q. Let's try it one more time, Mr. Landzo. The
3 question was: This morning you said he has not
4 satisfied my request. And the question I put to you
5 was: Was that request that he turned down a refusal to
6 pay you money? That requires a yes or no.
7 JUDGE JAN: He said one of the
8 considerations.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He said there is not
10 only that, there are others. He said at least. He was
11 trying to name the things he had against his counsel.
12 And he indicated, he started indicating it when,
13 perhaps the examination came. So he might be in a
14 position to state what are the other things.
15 MR. MORAN: Okay, what are the other things?
16 JUDGE JAN: He said that.
17 MR. MORAN:
18 Q. Those are the two requests?
19 A. If I may, let me give you an explanation.
20 Maybe something is not quite clear here. Yes, as far
21 as financial help is concerned, I was not strongly on
22 the stand to fire him because of that. Had Mr. Delic
23 not given me this advice, telling me that his lawyer
24 was helping his family at that time, my father was
25 working for a salary of around 80 Deutschmarks per
1 month. So what I tried to do is get some financial
2 assistance from my lawyer. He would, however, come to
3 me saying "I spent last night in the casino. I lost
4 some money," and instead of being willing to help me,
5 he would do that. So I was not firm on firing him
6 until another person, almost on a daily basis while
7 walking with him, advised me what to do.
8 Q. You talked about that financial assistance,
9 okay, you brought it up, let's talk about it. That
10 financial assistance was financial assistance, it was
11 provided on behalf of the SDA party, is that correct?
12 A. Yes, as far as I know.
13 Q. And, in fact, that financial assistance was
14 paid to your family also in amount of 200 Deutschmarks
15 a month by the SDA to help your family until what?
16 January of this year?
17 A. But not regularly. You should ask why they
18 were paying it. They weren't paying it because they
19 like me.
20 Q. The SDA party ask you to do anything wrong?
21 Did you get a letter from Alija Izetbegovic saying do
22 this or do that?
23 A. Not directly, but through my lawyer. And
24 this is why I decided to have no single lawyer from the
25 territory of the former Yugoslavia, because here there
1 are lots of things involved that I don't want to talk
2 about because I don't have evidence to corroborate a
3 statement. This is something else that I really don't
4 want to go into.
5 Q. Okay, fine.
6 A. Not all of them, but certain lawyers.
7 Q. And we just wanted to -- okay, you don't have
8 to go into it if you don't want to, I'll be gracious.
9 Let's talk about some of your testimony from yesterday,
10 okay. First thing I would like to talk about is the
11 incident where you cut your hand. Remember that?
12 Remember testifying about that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you remember the incident, of course,
15 because you testified about it?
16 A. Yes, I remember it, maybe not all the
17 details, but I do remember it.
18 Q. And you grabbed that knife in anger because
19 you blamed your father because you couldn't go to art
20 school, right?
21 A. No, that's not true. At that moment, there
22 was no mention made about the art school when this
23 misunderstanding took place.
24 Q. Okay. When you grabbed it, you were angry,
25 is that fair?
1 A. Like any teenager in adolescence, everything
2 bothers you unless it is just the way you think it
3 should be. That's normal for all persons. Well, it's
4 not normal to react in this way, but that was a time of
5 my personality development, so even for trivial things,
6 I would be really pissed off. Later on, I recognised
7 that there was no genuine reason for that.
8 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying yesterday when
9 you were asked -- excuse me, not yesterday, the day
10 before yesterday -- about that incident? You said, "I
11 don't know why I became quarrelling with my father, but
12 that was in 1991, when I couldn't attend the art
13 school. And after this impossibility of attending this
14 school, I was to -- I blame everything, my father for
15 everything. And then we quarrelled, the two of us.
16 And simply, I became nervous and I grabbed something I
17 found in a cupboard, a knife. I really don't know why
18 I grabbed the knife. And I hit against this cupboard.
19 And on that occasion, I slipped and cut four fingers."
20 Do you remember testifying to that? I would be happy
21 to show you the transcript.
22 A. There are mistakes in the transcript. I
23 didn't hit it once, more times. I did it once only. I
24 blamed his father without good reason. But, at that
25 time, I blamed everyone for not being able to go to art
1 school. At that time, when something was wrong at
2 school, when I couldn't get something, I would always
3 blame my father. And whenever we would start a
4 discussion, I would reproach him for not allowing me
5 these things to do. So the topic of the
6 misunderstanding at that time was not the art school.
7 But I blamed my father for everything because I thought
8 that he should have enabled me to do these things.
9 Q. So when you centred that testimony on the art
10 school, that was just you were centring on the art
11 school and there were a lot of reasons you were mad at
12 your father. Is that what you're saying, sir?
13 A. Well, you seem to have misunderstood me. For
14 all misunderstandings, since the time I left the art
15 school, when my father couldn't finance my art school,
16 everything that happened, together with the school, my
17 future, I would blame my father. Now I know I had no
18 reason, but at that time, I blamed him for not enabling
19 me to finish what I wanted to finish. There didn't
20 have to be tied only to the school, to the Konjic
21 school. But this is how I blamed him.
22 Q. Okay, fine. By the way, when was that
23 incident when you cut your hand, roughly, if you know
24 the month and the year. It was 1991, we know that.
25 What month was it?
1 A. I think it was February. If I -- well, as
2 far as I can recall it.
3 Q. And you had some surgery after that, right?
4 A. On the second day after the injury.
5 Q. Was your hand in a cast at all? Did Dr.
6 Buturovic put your hand in a cast?
7 A. Yes, upon the surgery, I think I had the cast
8 on for about one month.
9 Q. And, after the cast came off, he did some
10 threading, put some threads on your hand or something
11 so you could work with it? Do you remember testifying
12 about that? Through the 4th and 5th finger, he pulled
13 a thread through it, when was that?
14 A. He put me, the thread immediately upon
15 surgery. It was here, through the skin he would insert
16 the cord, the thread, and put it on to a rubber so it
17 was elastic so I could do exercises because there was
18 certain clearance between the hand itself and the cast,
19 so as to be able to move the fingers.
20 Q. And all of that came off, when? In March
21 1991?
22 A. Well, I know that I had it for about a month,
23 the cast, that I am sure of. And then the cast was
24 removed and I graduated from the school. But, of
25 course, I was out of school, I couldn't write. I
1 couldn't attend classes. I couldn't do practical
2 work. So, at the end of the year, I had to sit for the
3 exams.
4 Q. Okay. Now, did the threads and everything
5 come off when the cast came off, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then you, because you couldn't go to
8 school, you had to sit for all your exams at the end of
9 secondary school, at the end of the year, end of the
10 school year; right? Did I understand that right?
11 A. No, no. Before the school was out, I had
12 extra classes and I graduated on time.
13 Q. When do you have graduation from secondary
14 school in Konjic? I know in America we do it -- I can
15 tell you exactly we did it in May 30th this year where
16 I come from because I was there for my daughter's.
17 When was yours? What day of the month, if you recall?
18 A. I can't recall it.
19 Q. Do you recall whether it was in April, May,
20 June, July?
21 A. No. If you showed me a document, I would be
22 able to confirm it, but otherwise I can't recall it.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I know that it was 1991, but the month I
25 really don't know.
1 Q. That's -- okay. So you just have no idea?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. Let's talk about something else and this may
4 be a translation error, and, if it is, I think we need
5 to point it out to everybody. The day before
6 yesterday, you were talking about joining the TO,
7 okay? And --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And on page 15024 of the transcripts at lines
10 24 and 25 and then line 1 on the next page, you -- the
11 transcript says, "And Miro told me to sign up to the
12 TO, Territorial Defence, which had its headquarters in
13 the Ministry of the Interior." And then a couple of
14 pages later, on page 15026, lines 9 through 13, you
15 talk about Miro insisting that you stay with him, you
16 don't join the army. And he said you were too young,
17 it wasn't the war for you. The war is for nobody, for
18 no wise person. Which is right?
19 A. Let me explain. May I explain it?
20 Q. Well, you can start off with telling us which
21 is correct.
22 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Counsel is not blaming
23 you for what has been said, whether you know the two
24 versions which are not consistent, which is a correct
25 version.
1 MR. MORAN: Is it a mistranslation the
2 first --
3 THE WITNESS: They're both true. But, I
4 forgot to explain the first version. Can I explain it
5 now? Both of them are true. If I am allowed to
6 explain it, then it will be clear to you.
7 MR. MORAN: Why don't you explain version one
8 first and then go on to version two.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: The two have to be
10 explained together. Let him do it.
11 THE WITNESS: At the beginning, that is, I
12 can't recall exactly what was the time. Cipeta and
13 myself insisted from Miro on a daily basis, to send us
14 to the Territorial Defence. He refused to comply. I
15 think it was ten times a day that I asked him. He had
16 a machine gun of his own, which he got from the
17 Ministry of the Interior. He had it in his room, but
18 we couldn't carry it around because we were not members
19 of the Territorial Defence. We insisted on it.
20 He had a friend of his with the Territorial
21 Defence, who was head of a TD unit and he told me, go
22 there and apply there. I went there, I found the
23 person in question. This person told me, what are you
24 guys going to do here? And he sent me back. When I
25 came back home, Miro was laughing and he asked me, did
1 they take you in? My conclusion was that he just
2 wanted to help us, perhaps, he called them by phone and
3 told them not to take us in. He just wanted to get rid
4 of us because we really bothered him, ten, fifteen
5 times a day.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 Q. Okay, so Miro was only joking he when he told
2 you to join the TO the first time?
3 A. Not joking, he probably wanted to satisfy our
4 desire, but it turned out the way it did.
5 Q. Okay. And Miro forgot about that when he
6 testified?
7 A. If I remember, nobody asked him about it. If
8 you had asked him, I'm sure he would have told you.
9 Q. I'm sure he would have, too, sir.
10 While we're thinking about Miro, Miro said
11 that you were unloading 20-ton trucks. You recall that
12 testimony, and lifting televisions and things. And
13 your testimony, I'm looking for it now, but as I
14 recall, if you want me to look for it, I'll find it,
15 but as I recall what you said was, you mainly just
16 shoved boxes and things, and if there were smaller
17 trucks, and if you needed help someone would be hired,
18 folks would be hired to do that; right? Do you
19 remember saying something along those lines?
20 A. Yes, but I did the unloading, and of course
21 there were a number of people there. The truck would
22 come in front of the shop, one or two people would be
23 on the truck, and that they would push the goods closer
24 to the edge of the truck, the others would take, unload
25 and take the goods to the warehouse, and the third
1 group would then be putting it in the warehouse.
2 And always when we were unloading bigger
3 trucks, we would invite people whom we knew and who
4 would be paid. We couldn't do it alone. Only in cases
5 of smaller trucks, Cipeta and I would do it alone.
6 Q. And Miro forgot about hiring all those people
7 when he testified about you unloading 20-ton trucks.
8 Or nobody ever asked him; right?
9 A. You should have asked him. I don't remember,
10 recall anybody asking him. You, I remember what it
11 was, but you can ask him. He was the one who paid
12 these people.
13 For example, Bubalo Esad, he helped me a
14 number of times in unloading the truck. And Miro
15 always paid these people who were helping us for the
16 short time of unloading. He paid them. But you can
17 check it out with Miro, if you wish.
18 Q. And it must have been tough unloading those
19 trucks with your hand. Was it hard to unload things
20 like the television sets that Miro talked about?
21 A. I was unloading everything that I was asked.
22 I was on the truck always, and I then would unload half
23 a metre, but I never carried the goods to the
24 warehouse. But I helped in the warehouse in order to
25 know where everything was when Miro would ask us where
1 the goods were.
2 Q. So all you would do is pick it up off the
3 back of the truck and set it on the ground, or the
4 loading dock?
5 A. Well, you know, the small trucks were about a
6 metre wide. I would step, let's say, make a metre or
7 two step there and move the goods. That is why I was
8 on the truck, because I couldn't carry these goods for
9 a longer period of time, and longer routes.
10 Q. And it was hard, I bet it was hard, too, both
11 with your asthma and your hand when you carried that
12 lumber to Miro's father's house. That was tough,
13 wasn't it?
14 A. These lumber, the lumber, that was really
15 waste, these waste, these were small pieces, I don't
16 know how to explain it to you. This was waste lumber.
17 After the cutting and the mill, I could do that, it was
18 easy. It's not that you had big chunks of wood.
19 Miro's father used that for a furnace, for the boiler
20 for his central heating.
21 Q. Thinking about your health, as I recall, one
22 of the Dutch physicians, the pulmonary physician,
23 testified that you have an allergy to dust; is that
24 right? Let me rephrase, you're allergic to dust;
25 right?
1 A. Yes, dust, feathers and so on.
2 Q. And dust causes you to have an asthmatic
3 reaction, have an asthma attack?
4 A. Yes, problems, breathing problems, I have
5 difficulty in breathing. It's not an attack where I
6 can't move. I have problems, breathing problems, but
7 in a day or two, if you don't prevent that, then a more
8 serious stage occurs, sets on.
9 Q. Fine, let me go on to another subject, sir.
10 You testified, as I recall, that when you were first
11 assigned to the Celebici camp there was some kind of a
12 guard position in, I think you called it, I don't want
13 to say -- I call it a fox hole, okay? Some kind of a
14 hole dug in the ground that was in front of hangar 6,
15 but it's not on the model; do you recall testifying to
16 that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you had a machine gun there that was to
19 both cover the front of hangar 6 and to prevent people
20 from breaking into the camp to harm the inmates?
21 Didn't you testify to that? I'm looking for it right
22 now. I believe that's what you said.
23 A. It wasn't my machine gun. It was a machine
24 gun that was located there, but it's not that I would
25 have it there whenever I wanted. It was stationed
1 there.
2 Q. Yes, I understand it was stationed with the
3 guard post.
4 A. Yes, and at the beginning two guards were
5 sitting there. After that one was moved to this mound.
6 Q. And in fact, one of the reasons it was moved
7 to the mound was because you were stationed there in
8 that guard point and didn't like being, you call it I
9 think a ditch, I call it a fox hole, being full of
10 water. You wanted something drier; is that right?
11 A. That wasn't the reason. I was ordered to
12 have this, hold this position in order to have better
13 control over the entire facility. It was not wet only
14 in the fox hole, it was wet also where I was standing.
15 Q. Okay. So, when your lawyer asked you on page
16 15034 of the transcript at line 15 and 16, you said,
17 "Now the dugout on top of the hill there, that was
18 your idea to create that dugout, wasn't it?"
19 And on line 17 the answer starts off, "Yes,
20 when I was ordered to be in the guard post I was always
21 sitting in the field, but you know if a car passed or
22 some drunken soldiers passed by they would shoot at
23 me. That's why I asked Mr. Delic if we should do
24 something."
25 So, was that just some kind, did I
1 misunderstand, that it wasn't your idea to build that
2 guard post on the top of the hill?
3 A. My idea was to dig the fox hole. And it, of
4 course, wasn't up to me to decide where the guard post
5 was. There were also other guards there, and we had to
6 sit in that field.
7 And quite often it would happen that somebody
8 was shooting from the village, the direction of the
9 village, and there was a great danger that people
10 would, a person would be hit. That is why I wanted, I
11 thought that a shelter would be made, and Mr. Delic
12 approved that, said that I could take and engage two or
13 three people from hangar 6 and that we dig that out.
14 Q. Okay, fine. And they dug out a dugout, and
15 they put a roof on it; didn't they, so you could sleep
16 in it? Wasn't it covered?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In fact, show the judges on the model where
19 it is, so we can all be sure what we're talking about.
20 Just walk around and point to it.
21 A. (Indicating).
22 Q. Fine. Thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
23 And you slept in there because you were, because of
24 your health problems. You moved a bed into that
25 bunker; is that right?
1 A. No, we didn't make, I made a bed there. And
2 the reason why I slept there, namely when the shift
3 would end, we couldn't find, often, a free bed to
4 sleep, and we would sleep in the kitchen on the table.
5 That, even that bed, it wasn't used just by me, but
6 also by other guards, quite often so. And I didn't
7 sleep always, every day there.
8 Q. Okay, so if the transcript reflects on page
9 15035, beginning on line 6, you discussing the
10 premises, and you couldn't find a bed and sometimes it
11 was too hot and too cold. And then you, starting at
12 line 8 you say "Often, due to my health problems, I
13 couldn't shift constantly from cold to hot and vice
14 versa, and that is why I set all of this up," this
15 being the bunker. "And I could sleep there, I could be
16 on duty there. This was a dugout made of two parts.
17 The guard would be sitting and watching while I would
18 be sleeping."
19 There were other reasons besides your health,
20 the hot and cold that you set up that bed and
21 everything in the bunker; isn't that right?
22 A. When I'm speaking of the hot and cold, I was
23 speaking also, I was thinking of Building D. I slept
24 there in the hall where it was very cold. I was
25 sleeping near the lavatories. And the administration
1 building, there was a lot of heat, and it was also a
2 hot building in summer.
3 So, that is why I linked this up, combined
4 this. And that is why I made this makeshift bed. I
5 didn't make it only for myself. Other guards were also
6 using it. Neither the dugout nor this bunker, nor the
7 bed. I slept on quite a number of occasions, but not
8 only I.
9 Q. And maybe you can help me with this,
10 Mr. Landzo. Every bunker I've ever been in, every one
11 of what we would call a field fortification is a pretty
12 dusty thing. It's dirty. It's a hole dug in the dirt.
13 If you're allergic to dust, wouldn't that affect your
14 asthma if you were sleeping in there?
15 A. If you've listened carefully to the doctor, I
16 was allergic to house dust. And we had wood planks on
17 the floor, there wasn't really very much room. There
18 was some dust, of course. And there was dust also
19 before the hangar, in the hangar, and dust also here.
20 Q. Okay, so you're just allergic to some kinds
21 of dust. I understand now, sir.
22 A. That is what the test has shown. Maybe I'm
23 allergic to all types of dust, but if I remember
24 correctly it's house dust, it's feathers, and a change
25 of climatic condition.
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. Also, here in my cell I have problems when I
3 dust my room, after that I have to use a spray.
4 Q. Okay, fine. And let me go on to a different
5 subject, sir. One more thing before I leave the
6 bunker, okay? And that bunker on the top of the hill,
7 the one you just pointed to, there was a machine gun
8 there; wasn't there?
9 A. Yes, later this machine gun was found in
10 Bradina, it was brought to the camp, cleaned, and it
11 was placed, located there where I was often on guard.
12 There was a machine gun also at the entrance gate.
13 Q. Okay. So, we have got that machine gun
14 there, and let's set aside the one at the entrance
15 gate, okay? We had that machine gun there, and then we
16 had -- by the way, it had ammunition, didn't it? It
17 could fire.
18 A. Yes, I think some 30 bullets.
19 Q. And you had another machine gun that was in
20 that ditch that's out in front of hangar 6 that, the
21 ditch that was always full of water; or are those the
22 same machine gun?
23 A. No, there were two, and the water was in the
24 fox hole only when it rained.
25 Q. But I was just discussing the fox hole with
1 the water in it, the one directly in front of hangar
2 6. That had a machine gun that had ammunition, and the
3 one on the top of the hill had a machine gun that had
4 ammunition, and both of them could cover the area in
5 front of the hangar 6; right?
6 A. Yes. The, we, on the hill we wanted to cover
7 the exterior perimeter of the camp. We had to -- in
8 the beginning we had M-48 rifles with five bullets,
9 after that automatic rifles with ten bullets; and with
10 ten bullets, you could not defend if there were people
11 who would be attacking with automatic rifles.
12 At the time we didn't have in the camp any
13 automatic rifles, that was the purpose of the machine
14 guns there. And it wasn't my decision to place them
15 there.
16 Q. No, I understand, sir. You were just a
17 guard, and you didn't make those kinds of decisions. I
18 understand that, and nobody is criticising you for
19 that, sir.
20 I just wanted to make sure I understood there
21 were two machine guns covering the front of hangar 6.
22 And there were.
23 A. No, no. One controlled the entrance to the
24 hangar, the other covered the exterior area in front of
25 the camp, the village, in order to control the
1 entrance. Because the one on the hill couldn't cover
2 the entrance gate.
3 Q. Okay. Fine. And you were afraid that the
4 prisoners were going to riot, right? And you were
5 afraid because you only had two M-48 rifles, each guard
6 had one M-48 rifle with ten rounds of ammunition and
7 that's why you were worried that the Serbs might do
8 something, might overwhelm you?
9 A. Yes, that was what we were told, to be always
10 on guard. Also, when we communicate with the
11 detainees, you know, I only arrived there at that time.
12 I didn't know the people, I didn't know what was
13 happening. That was the idea I had, that they were
14 dangerous people, ready to do everything. And now what
15 can I do with five bullets for a rifle and with 200
16 detainees.
17 Q. Okay, fine. By the way, it must have been
18 tough to work that bolt action rifle with your hand;
19 wasn't it? Could you work it?
20 A. You said that you were in the army. As you
21 know, you can cock it with two fingers. I mean, you
22 were in the army.
23 Q. Actually, sir, the weapons I used in the
24 army, to be quite frank with you, were not bolt action
25 rifles. I have very little experience with bolt action
1 rifles.
2 A. It was like a hunting rifle, a carbine.
3 Q. Okay, in fact, there is a picture around here
4 some place if we really want to look at one.
5 Let me jump on to another subject. Without
6 going into any of the details, okay? Because I'm not
7 going to ask you the details about it. And if your
8 lawyer wants to do it on redirect, that's fine, but I'm
9 just asking you in general, okay?
10 Back in 1992 and '94, you gave some
11 statements to the authorities in Bosnia about a crime
12 you were accused of; right?
13 A. Are you thinking of the murder of Bubalo?
14 Q. Yes, thinking about the Bubalo case. Without
15 going into detail, you gave statements about that to
16 the Bosnian authorities; right?
17 A. In 1992, it wasn't an official statement, but
18 in 1994, an official statement.
19 Q. And those statements were not truthful, were
20 they?
21 A. I couldn't tell you, I would have to look at
22 them. There were some things which I said then which
23 were not truth, the truth; but I would have to look at
24 them in order to be able to tell what you is the truth
25 and what is not.
1 Q. That's what I was asking you, that those
2 statements were not completely truthful, and you knew
3 they were not truthful when you made them; is that
4 right, sir?
5 A. Yes. At the time of my detainment in
6 Pasovici village there were statements that I made.
7 You know, some were at midnight, you would be taken out
8 of the cellar, they would give you a paper with a
9 written statement and they would order you to sign.
10 So, I would sign without checking on them.
11 There were such statements, but there are
12 also statements where I know what I said.
13 Q. Okay. And the statements that you knew what
14 you said you didn't tell the truth in; did you?
15 A. If you can show me the statement, then I will
16 be able to answer you. Like this, I know there are
17 things that I said that were true and there are things
18 that I said that were not true. If you can show me the
19 statement, then I can be more specific about them.
20 Q. Actually, sir, I'm just asking about, I'm not
21 asking about individual details. I'm just asking
22 whether the statements were truthful. And here's why:
23 Remember back on the 18th day of July, 1996, you were
24 interviewed by a man named Bart D'Hooge and
25 Mrs. McHenry, in the presence of your lawyer in the
1 U.N. Detention Centre.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they were talking to you about some
4 statements that you made in 1994 to an investigating
5 judge. Okay? And Mr. D'Hooge asked you on page 5 of
6 the statement, "Did you sign any statements?" And you
7 answered, "Yes".
8 And then Mr. D'Hooge says, "When you were
9 interviewed, did you tell the truth?" And you said,
10 "no".
11 And he responded, "You didn't tell the
12 truth?" And you said "No." Do you remember that?
13 A. Can you show this document to me? I cannot
14 recall it. I cannot recall that part of the
15 interview. I know that I was interviewed, that I made
16 statements, but I don't know exactly what I said. I
17 know that we had this interview. I know that the
18 gentleman put questions, but I don't know exactly what
19 I answered.
20 MR. MORAN: Could we provide him a copy of
21 his statement to the OTP? I've forgotten what the
22 number is.
23 MS. McHENRY: Prosecution Exhibit 102.
24 MR. MORAN: 102?
25 Q. Okay, I could tell you, sir, that it's on
1 page 5 of the English version. I have no idea where it
2 would be in the Bosnian version.
3 A. Yes, I have found it.
4 Q. You don't have any problem with that being a
5 correct transcription of the videotape of that
6 conversation you had with Mrs. McHenry and Mr. D'Hooge;
7 do you?
8 A. I believe that this is true.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. You know, as I said before, some statements
11 are not true, some are true, but not all of them.
12 Q. And the reason you gave in there for telling
13 an untruth was because your lawyer in the Bosnian
14 proceedings, whose name I don't remember -- what was
15 his name, by the way?
16 A. Mr. Brackovic.
17 Q. No, no, no, the one in the Bosnian
18 proceedings. You gave another name some place in your
19 statement. Someone else represented you, you said in
20 your statement to the OTP, at least.
21 A. Fejzagic Esad.
22 Q. That's right, and the reason you give in your
23 statement for not telling the truth was he told you not
24 to tell the truth; is that right? He recommended that
25 you not mention this person. And if you go to
1 different areas in your transcript -- ?
2 A. At that time he said it, because at the same
3 time he was also the Defence counsel of Mr. Pirkic
4 Midhat, which I had not known. He advised me not to
5 mention the name of this person in the Court.
6 Actually I had a confrontation with Pirkic
7 Midhat where I denied everything. First of all, I was
8 afraid of Pirkic Midhat. If you knew him you would be
9 afraid of him, too. That's first.
10 Secondly, he said that if I don't mention his
11 name, he will help me to get out, he will help me to
12 avoid a sentence because I was a soldier executing the
13 order, and he at that time had been the brigade
14 commander in Konjic.
15 Q. Okay. And it was your lawyer that told to
16 you make all these false statements, then.
17 A. He advised me not to mention the name of
18 Pirkic Midhat. And Mr. Delic Hazim -- well, let me
19 answer you, since you asked me about these statements.
20 I changed three or four statements at the Court at that
21 time. And if you read them carefully enough you will
22 see that I always try to avoid mentioning the name of
23 the Delic Hazim. So there were a number of persons who
24 influenced my statements at that time.
25 If you read them carefully, you will see
1 that. And the statements made to the Prosecutor where
2 I blamed the Croats and not the Muslims. And I think
3 this should be clear to you now.
4 Q. Do you recall saying in your statements to
5 the office of the Prosecutor, and to help you along
6 it's on page 50, starting about the middle of the page,
7 talking about signing the statement, and Mrs. McHenry
8 is asking you questions. And she says, "Why did you
9 sign the 19" -- what did you have to -- in -- excuse
10 me, "Why did you have to in 1994 sign the statement?"
11 And your answer starts off, "And all this
12 went through the lawyer who is defending me and who is
13 defending the commander of the brigade, they had some
14 accounts of their own". And then you went further on
15 to say that, further down Mr. D'Hooge asked you if
16 Mr. Delic told you what to put in your statement. And
17 you responded, no, you were told to do that by your
18 lawyer. Do you remember saying that?
19 A. Sir, the statement I made to the Prosecutor
20 is not entirely true.
21 Q. The statement made to which prosecutor, the
22 one in Bosnia or Mrs. McHenry?
23 A. The statement to the Prosecutor, here, and
24 some statements I made in Bosnia. And during the day
25 you will hear why they are not true, what is true, what
1 is not true.
2 Q. Okay. So --
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Mr. Moran, I think we
4 will have to stop here and reassemble at 2.30
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
3 are still under oath.
4 MR. MORAN: May it please the Court?
5 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed, Mr.
6 Moran.
7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
8 Q. Mr. Landzo, first up, over the lunch break,
9 did you discuss your testimony with anyone?
10 A. I did talk to my lawyer.
11 Q. Okay. Nothing wrong with that, I just wanted
12 to know. Mr. Landzo, I am going to change to a
13 completely different subject. And I want to ask you
14 about a comment you made in Court when you finished up
15 your direct examination. You asked the presiding judge
16 to be heard about some conditions in the detention
17 unit. That you were being kept alone. Do you recall
18 making that comment?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that's nothing new, is it? Well, let me
21 rephrase that, that was an unfair way to state it.
22 When you first came to The Hague back in the summer of
23 1996, you were also kept away from the other
24 defendants, weren't you?
25 A. Not only me. We were all isolated. Each one
1 of us went alone for a walk. We went alone for our gym
2 exercise. I had a talk with Mr. McFaden. He has shown
3 me a letter from the registry that I was to be in
4 isolation for two weeks, due to the possible danger of
5 me being injured by Mr. Mucic or Mr. Delic. At least
6 that was the type of information I received, but you
7 can check it, of course.
8 Q. That was back in 1996, sir?
9 A. No, a few days ago when I began testifying.
10 Q. I want to focus on the time after you got to
11 The Hague in 1996, okay. There was some period of time
12 after that when, at the request of the Office of the
13 Prosecutor, within the rules for detention, the
14 registry ordered that you and the other defendants not
15 be allowed to get together. You and these other three
16 guys behind me; isn't that true, sir?
17 A. Yes. That was at the request of the OTP.
18 Q. And that continued for several months after
19 you got here, didn't it? That you were kept alone and
20 were kept isolated and weren't allowed to be around any
21 other Muslims?
22 A. Yes, a few months. And after those few
23 months, I received the permission to meet with Mr.
24 Delic.
25 Q. And after those few months, you were, we're
1 talking that occurred when? October, November of 1996
2 that Judge Karibi-Whyte signed that order?
3 A. I don't know exactly. I have that piece of
4 paper in the detention unit. I couldn't tell you just
5 off.
6 Q. But, you and the -- you were kept away from
7 Mr. Landzo -- or, excuse me, Mr. Landzo, it's been a
8 long day. You were kept away from Mr. Mucic and Mr.
9 Delalic and Mr. Delic. Clearly beyond the 18th day of
10 July, 1996; right?
11 A. I don't know how long I didn't have contact,
12 but after a certain period, I could meet only with Mr.
13 Delic. While with the other two accused, I had no
14 contacts whatsoever.
15 Q. Okay, that's fine. Let me go back to some of
16 the other things we were talking about. Remember back
17 in 1994 when you gave those statements to the
18 Prosecutor's office back in Bosnia, the ones you say
19 were somewhat true and not somewhat true? Do you
20 remember those? We were talking about that right
21 before lunch?
22 A. I do know that, I did give some statements.
23 Q. And those were the ones that you said some of
24 it's true and some of it's not true?
25 A. These statements were not completely true,
1 but I can tell you the full truth here. I think we've
2 all gathered here to seek out the truth and I can tell
3 it.
4 Q. Sir, what I am getting at --
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
6 object. He is not letting the defendant finish his
7 statement. He said he'd like to tell the truth and Mr.
8 Moran is cutting him off and not letting him finish his
9 truth.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: He his telling the
11 truth. I think through his examination he will tell
12 the truth. I suppose that's all it is meant to be.
13 MR. MORAN: Yes.
14 Q. And I am just trying to get you to confirm
15 that those statements were not the whole truth. In
16 fact, that's what you told Ms. McHenry and Mr. D'Hooge
17 on the 18th of July, 1996?
18 A. For a few statements. I know a certain
19 truth. That Mr. Delic ordered me, that that person
20 must be killed. I know that that was the truth. There
21 are some other minor elements, which have been adjusted
22 because some people asked me to adapt certain elements.
23 Q. In fact, what you told Ms. McHenry and Mr.
24 D'Hooge was not that Hazim told you to lie in your
25 statement, but that your lawyer told you to do it,
1 right? Your lawyer that represented you back in
2 Bosnia, not Mr. Brackovic, but the lawyer that
3 represented you back in Bosnia; isn't that right?
4 A. Yes, but we would have to go and seek out the
5 background of it all in order to make it clear to the
6 Trial Chamber and you, sir. For all of you who are
7 interested in this, what really happened and how it
8 happened. All this is connected with the statement. I
9 think it would be necessary to furnish an explanation
10 and I think we would save a lot of time, all of us.
11 Q. When you made those statements back in 1994,
12 in Bosnia, the ones that you say that were not the
13 whole truth, did you expect the officials of the
14 Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina to rely on the
15 truthfulness of those statements or did you expect them
16 to know that the statements you made under oath were
17 untruthful?
18 A. When I gave the last statement, which Madam
19 Uzunovic asked me, "Landzo, who is sending you to
20 change your statement?" Because I denied that. She
21 asked me, "was it Delic, Hazim? Because in your
22 statements, you never mention him and try to protect
23 him." So the judge, inquiring judge, knew this and I
24 didn't intend to lie. I didn't go many times alone,
25 but Mr. Delic informed the guard that I would have to
1 go to the Court and give a statement. And then the
2 guard would come for me and tell me that I had to go to
3 the Court.
4 Q. Okay. And you expected the officials of the
5 Government of Bosnia, Herzegovina to rely on the
6 truthfulness of those statements, did you not? Do you
7 understand the question?
8 A. Well, I didn't expect it. They were bright
9 enough to know what it was all about.
10 Q. Okay. So they knew that those statements you
11 made under oath --
12 A. Well, they weren't under oath, sir. That was
13 still in the investigative stage. You can lie to the
14 police or the inquiring judge. That was the general
15 stand, both in Bosnia and in the former Yugoslavia, and
16 those statements were not made under oath.
17 Q. Okay, so it was okay to lie then, okay,
18 that's fine. Let me go on to something else.
19 A. Well, it wasn't all right. But I made those
20 statements according to the advice I received from
21 others.
22 Q. So from your lawyer and you just testified a
23 second ago --
24 A. Lawyer, Mr. Delic and Mr. Mitko Pirkic.
25 Q. And you said just a few seconds ago, I am
1 reading the transcript." You can lie to the police or
2 the inquiring judge." Okay, that's fine. Now, let me
3 go on to something else. In July 1996, over in the
4 jailhouse, you made a statement to Mrs. McHenry and Mr.
5 D'Hooge. In fact, it's sitting right in front of you,
6 the English version is sitting right in front of you.
7 I understand your position now is that statement is not
8 truthful; is that a fair assessment?
9 A. It's not the complete truth. Well, but you
10 will see that for yourself if you read it. And I
11 stated that Mr. Delic was not a deputy commander of the
12 camp, but just a guard. And, as you know, that's not
13 true. And there are some other elements which are not
14 true. And I am here to give the explanation and the
15 truth to the Tribunal, to the Chamber.
16 Q. Well, let me just pick an example; Scepo
17 Gotovac. When Mr. D'Hooge and Ms. McHenry ask you if
18 you murdered that man, if you killed him, you denied
19 it, didn't you?
20 A. Well, I denied that, but not only that,
21 everything.
22 Q. I just picked that as an example, sir, okay.
23 A. You can see also on the other counts that I
24 denied everything.
25 Q. That's right. And that was because of two
1 reasons, right? You testified on page 15108 of the
2 transcript, starting at line 7, about how when you were
3 brought to Sarajevo, right before you came to The
4 Hague, you were brought before a judge of the Supreme
5 Court of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he
6 made a statement to you. And the way you construed
7 that statement starts at line 18 on page 15108. "Those
8 who confess, half is given. Those who do not confess,
9 will be forgiven everything. Which means, how I
10 understood him that we should not confess anything that
11 brought us here." Did you take that as advice from a
12 justice of the Supreme Court of the Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina to be untruthful or just not to talk
14 at all?
15 A. I listened to the advice of my -- the then
16 Defence and I denied everything. And what the judge
17 from the Supreme Court said in Sarajevo, I remember
18 that. He told this in the entire story, but probably
19 he meant something. But I wasn't led by this advice.
20 Q. Okay. So you didn't take it as advice from a
21 judge to lie, you just took it that it didn't mean
22 anything or not to say anything?
23 A. I didn't say that the judge told me to lie, I
24 just quoted his words. You can conclude what, but I
25 listened to the advice of my then counsel and denied
1 everything.
2 Q. Okay, so what the judge said didn't enter
3 into your decision not to be truthful to Ms. McHenry
4 and Mr. D'Hooge?
5 JUDGE JAN: He was acting on the advice of
6 his counsel, this is what he said.
7 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just want to
8 make sure that no judicial officer in any country would
9 have recommended that he would tell an untruth.
10 THE WITNESS: May I add an explanation? I
11 know what the person said to Mr. Delic and myself and
12 what the man looked like, but I don't know his name. I
13 don't know whether that was a piece of advice or it was
14 a sentence stated just like that. But I remember that
15 he said and I construed a conclusion on the basis of
16 that, what he wanted to say.
17 MR. MORAN:
18 Q. And the conclusion was, sir?
19 A. Not to admit to anything, confess any.
20 Q. It would have been a lot easier if you would
21 have just said that a little while ago. Now, let's go
22 on to something else.
23 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
24 object to the side bar comments by Mr. Moran. They're
25 uncalled for at this point. "It would have been a lot
1 simpler if you had so earlier." That's intimidating
2 the witness also.
3 MR. MORAN:
4 Q. Mr. Landzo, I am not trying to intimidate
5 you. If you feel that I am intimidating you, let me
6 know and I'll back off. Okay?
7 A. You're doing your job and I have a duty here
8 and, well, no offence meant.
9 Q. Okay, fine. We'll still be friends when it's
10 over.
11 A. I certainly hope so.
12 Q. And then after you gave that statement on
13 July the 18th, 1996, to the Office of the Prosecutor,
14 there was a motion filed having to do with your
15 competency to stand trial, you remember that? And
16 because of that you were interviewed by probably more
17 psychiatrists and psychologists than you ever wanted to
18 see. You recall all those incidents? And you
19 recounted some things in those statements to the
20 psychiatrist that were not true, isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes. Look, there were two reasons, as I have
22 mentioned. My status at the time and the impossibility
23 to remember everything. And I had an image in my head
24 for which I considered to be true. And we must return
25 to my Defence at the time who chose this tactics for my
1 Defence. You should ask him why he chose that.
2 Q. Oh, we will. But, so the Defence at the time
3 was that you were insane at the time of the crime, is
4 that it? And that you, therefore, could not be held
5 criminally responsible, is that what the Defence was?
6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
7 object. He is asking the defendant to come to a legal
8 conclusion and that's not something that he is aware
9 of. He knows that the statute says lack of mental
10 capacity and diminished mental capacity. I doubt if he
11 knows what the legal definition of insanity is.
12 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I think he knows
13 what his Defence was.
14 Q. And, in fact, he says, we must return to my
15 Defence at the time who chose the tactics. Well, I
16 want to know what the tactics were and I want to know
17 what the Defence was and I think I am entitled to know
18 that.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, go ahead.
20 MR. MORAN:
21 Q. The Defence at the time was that you were not
22 criminally responsible because of your mental
23 condition; is that right?
24 A. Well, you should ask him that.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I just did what I was told to do.
2 Q. And so you simulated inability to remember
3 things, isn't that right?
4 A. As I have said, I didn't simulate
5 intentionally.
6 Q. Well --
7 A. This was my condition at the time. And I
8 believe that all that I know, everything is the truth,
9 but much of it is not the truth. But at the time this
10 was the truth for me and I believed in that. And I
11 would talk about it to anyone who asked me.
12 Q. Sir, a couple of weeks ago, somewhere around
13 the 3rd of July, do you recall talking to Dr. Lagazzi?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And he wrote a report that's in evidence as D
16 63/4. And, in that report, Dr. Lagazzi wrote, and I
17 will read it to you or we'll get it for you and you can
18 read it yourself. Dr. Lagazzi wrote on page 8, "On
19 some occasions (as he now admits) he simulated
20 disorders of awareness and orientation which were not
21 compatible with the clinical reality of the case."
22 Now, did Dr. Lagazzi just make that up or did he have
23 some basis for saying that you simulated those or can
24 you explain why Dr. Lagazzi would have that in his
25 report if you didn't tell him that you simulated that
1 lack of orientation?
2 A. I believe I know what you were speaking
3 about. He asked me what the day is and what is the
4 season. At the time, in fact, I wasn't going out. And
5 I didn't have a watch. I didn't have a calendar. And
6 I couldn't tell him. And if he concluded that I was
7 simulating, well, he is a professional. Maybe he
8 could, under these conditions, conclude that. But, I
9 told him what I believed was the truth.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And that he concluded that I was simulating,
12 he will be able to tell you more about that.
13 Q. And on page 3 of his report, if you recall,
14 there was a translation error. And --
15 A. I didn't say there was a translation error, I
16 just said what I had told him, I don't know how he
17 understood it.
18 Q. Yes, sir. Well, if you recall back when we
19 were upstairs in that other courtroom and I was
20 chatting with Dr. Lagazzi like I am chatting with you
21 now, I asked him about a portion of his report, on page
22 3 of his report, and he said there was a translation
23 error. And the translation is in the sentence, he
24 emphasised -- he being you -- emphasised that he was
25 not mad. And here's where the translation error is.
1 The printed report says that he at no time simulated
2 apparent temporal and spatial disorientation, as he had
3 been recommended to do so. And, as I recall, what Dr.
4 Lagazzi said was that you did admit it. And the next
5 sentence says, He -- meaning you -- maintains that he
6 only later understood that such an attitude was useless
7 and counterproductive and he is, therefore, critical of
8 his previous Defence counsel who persuaded him to make
9 the wrong decisions.
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
11 object because I can't understand the question. I
12 believe there might have been three questions at one
13 time. And if you could break it down, I believe it's a
14 compound question and I don't believe that the
15 defendant should be forced to try to follow that line
16 of thinking right now. Could you simplify it? .
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Did the witness
18 understand the question? If he did not, he will
19 rephrase it.
20 THE WITNESS: Partially.
21 MR. MORAN: Okay.
22 Q. What I was asking about if you remembered
23 when Dr. Lagazzi talked about the translation in the
24 paragraph that I read to you?
25 A. I don't remember it exactly. I know that he,
1 in his testimony spoke about his last report along
2 maybe these lines.
3 Q. And he said he simulated this, he would have
4 just been mistaken or wrong, is that what your position
5 is, Mr. Landzo?
6 A. I can't say what he thought, I am just
7 telling you what I said at that time. It may be true
8 that I said this to him, I can't recall everything, but
9 I know that I told Dr. Lagazzi everything on the
10 occasion of our last interview about everything. And I
11 told him why there was a discrepancy between certain
12 statements. I gave him the reasons -- well, I don't
13 know exactly whether I said what you emphasised, but if
14 this is what Dr. Lagazzi wrote down, then I guess this
15 is what I had said, but I cannot recall it now.
16 Q. Well, Mr. Landzo, there were only three
17 people at that meeting. One was an interpreter, one
18 was Dr. Lagazzi, and one was you; and all I am relying
19 on is what Dr. Lagazzi said in his report.
20 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
21 object, that is a misstatement. There were two
22 interpreters. It had to go from Dutch to Italian,
23 and Italian to Bosnian, so there were four people
24 present.
25 MR. MORAN: I'm sorry, there were four people
1 present, two interpreters --
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're correct.
3 MR. MORAN: I'm sorry Mr. Landzo, there were
4 four people present. Two interpreters, and you, and
5 Dr. Lagazzi. So all we have to rely on is what you
6 tell us and what Dr. Lagazzi tells us, isn't that
7 right? On what you said.
8 A. Well, that is up to you to conclude. I don't
9 claim that I am right on everything. I am just talking
10 to you about the things I recall, and Dr. Lagazzi
11 probably wrote down in his statement what he heard and
12 what he recalls. It may very well be that I said
13 something I cannot recall or that he put down something
14 that he didn't understand well, I don't know that, you
15 should ask the gentleman, you should ask the two
16 interpreters, because there was really two interpreters
17 there. There was one translating from Serbo-Croatian
18 into Dutch and the other from Dutch into Italian, so I
19 really don't know. And you see when interpreting is
20 being done, it is not every word that is interpreted.
21 And if you have two interpreters, of course you have
22 two different languages and they, perhaps, will not use
23 the same words.
24 Q. Sure. And it could have been an
25 interpretation problem and Dr. Lagazzi may just have
1 gotten mixed up, that's fine. Let's go back on to some
2 of the other things you told me.
3 A. It may very well be that I said something
4 there, but I cannot recall it now.
5 Q. That's fine. That's fine, Mr. Landzo. Now,
6 that was what? The third time? Or the third sequence
7 of times that Dr. Lagazzi interviewed you, right? The
8 first two times were in 1996?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Late 1996, maybe early 1997. When you talked
11 to Dr. Lagazzi, those first times, you told him some
12 things that were not true, didn't you? Well, let me
13 give you an example.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Let me give you an example. You told him,
16 for instance, that you were mixing pills and alcohol.
17 And that wasn't true, isn't that correct?
18 JUDGE JAN: That's already been covered. Why
19 keep on repeating yourself?
20 MR. MORAN: Yes, Your Honour, I just want to
21 ask him a couple of things about that. Actually, the
22 biggest thing I wanted to ask you about that was, you
23 lied about that because your lawyer, Mr. --
24 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
25 object.
1 JUDGE JAN: (Inaudible)
2 MS. McMURREY: First of all, I was told in
3 this Court in 1997 not to call the witness a liar. And
4 I object that Mr. Moran is calling the witness a liar
5 at this moment.
6 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour, if I misspoke,
7 I'm sorry, that statement was untruthful.
8 JUDGE JAN: He already said that yesterday.
9 MR. MORAN:
10 Q. And the reason for your untruthfulness was
11 because you were told to do that by your lawyer?
12 A. I told you that on a number of occasions
13 before.
14 Q. And that, presumably, was to aid in your
15 Defence. There were some other statements that were
16 made about that time that were not correct to Dr.
17 Lagazzi. There was the statement about -- what other
18 things you did tell him back then that were not
19 truthful, let's just start with that?
20 A. If you give me the report, I will specify to
21 you, sir.
22 Q. Your Honour, if we want, we can do that or we
23 can move on. It's the Court's pleasure.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have exhausted
25 those things in regards to inaccuracies, move on to
1 something else.
2 MR. MORAN:
3 Mr. Landzo, would it surprise you if I told
4 you that last night after you essentially waived the
5 attorney/client privilege with Mr. Brackovic --
6 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
7 object, has the Court ruled that that attorney/client
8 privilege has been totally waived from Mr. Brackovic.
9 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Who is objecting to it?
10 MS. McMURREY: I am objecting on behalf of --
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: It's not a privilege
12 between you and him.
13 MS. McMURREY: It is a privilege between my
14 client and his former attorney and I believe it is my
15 duty to --
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let me hear your
17 submission that he is volunteering what he told you is
18 privileged. Let's hear him.
19 MR. MORAN: Are you asking me, Your Honour?
20 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Let the person objecting
21 make the submission. But after volunteering what went
22 on between the witness and counsel, that statement is
23 still privileged.
24 MS. McMURREY: All I am asking is that there
25 be a ruling that the attorney/client privilege has been
1 waived, so that either it's clear that it has or it's
2 clear that it hasn't.
3 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If the witness
4 volunteers whatever he told his counsel, the privilege
5 no longer holds. If there was a privilege, he would
6 have been the one to plead it. And he would not have
7 said it at all.
8 MS. McMURREY: My only concern here is that
9 as his advocate, he may not know about the privilege,
10 and I think it's my duty to object when it appears that
11 some damage may be done to him. But if the privilege
12 has been waived --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After extensively
14 speaking on the privilege, to your knowledge, you were
15 sitting down.
16 MS. McMURREY: I just wanted to make sure it
17 was waived or not waived.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: After it's all been
19 stated, you would have stopped him doing it at that
20 time. It was your responsibility to have warned him
21 that he should not do it, but you did not.
22 MS. McMURREY: I think we discussed it two
23 days ago, Your Honour, I just wanted to be clear.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You knew what he did.
25
1 JUDGE JAN: Far too long.
2 MR. MORAN: Okay, Your Honour, I'm just about
3 set to wind it down.
4 Q. Would it surprise you, sir, if I were to tell
5 you that when Mr. Karabdic was speaking to
6 Mr. Brackovic on the telephone last night,
7 Mr. Brackovic was asked about the Croatian death camp
8 you talked about?
9 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I'm going to
10 object, number one; this is total hearsay and he has to
11 prove the reliability of these statements. He is
12 talking about Mr. Karabdic's conversation with
13 Mr. Brackovic. If Mr. Moran had it, that's one thing,
14 but we don't have any party here to this interrogation.
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think you are right
16 here. You don't have to introduce matters which are
17 completely irrelevant. We have no idea about what you
18 are talking about.
19 MR. MORAN:
20 Q. And so, you made these false statements in
21 1996 and 1997 to the psychiatrist?
22 JUDGE JAN: Statements that were incorrect.
23 MR. MORAN: Incorrect?
24 Q. And now you're here telling the truth; is
25 that what you're saying, Mr. Landzo?
1 A. Yes, if you should be surprised with that, I
2 don't see any problem here. Because I am aware of the
3 responsibilities emanating from my lying here, if I
4 should lie here.
5 Q. Okay, so, we should believe you now, even
6 though those other statements were not true.
7 MR. MORAN: Thank you very much, Your
8 Honour. I pass the witness.
9 A. I'm not asking anybody to believe me, but
10 just to listen to my story, to what I have to say.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions from the
12 Prosecution?
13 JUDGE JAN: I think Mr. Moran has --
14 MS. McHENRY: Let me first do a couple of
15 housekeeping matters with the usher's assistance.
16 Mrs. McMurrey yesterday introduced a letter from
17 Mr. Landzo to the office of the Prosecutor, and I now
18 have the responses to Mr. Landzo and to his counsel.
19 And just for purposes of completeness, I would ask that
20 they be accepted.
21 JUDGE JAN: You did not apply to him. You
22 must pass it on to the Defence counsel.
23 MS. McHENRY: There was both, Your Honour,
24 you can see that both Mr. Landzo was replied to and
25 counsel.
1 JUDGE JAN: If that's what it says, because
2 where it was said he should be given death sentence.
3 MS. McHENRY: That's the letter. And just
4 for purposes of completeness, I'm not going to go into
5 it further.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think it's, let's have
7 the full cycle.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I want the
9 record to be clear that we have not insinuated that
10 there was any impropriety on the part of the
11 Prosecution. So we have certainly no objections to
12 this.
13 JUDGE JAN: There is no such insinuation at
14 all.
15 MS. McHENRY: The second matter, just with
16 the assistance of the usher, there is a matter that was
17 discussed in private session yesterday and something
18 was redacted. At some later point the Prosecution is
19 going to discuss that matter and argue that it not be
20 redacted.
21 I previously gave Defence counsel earlier
22 this morning copies of some material already in
23 evidence that we will be relying upon to show the
24 relevance of the material. And just so that Your
25 Honours have it now, I just -- .
1 JUDGE JAN: That incident is not part of the
2 indictment at all.
3 MS. McHENRY: That's right.
4 JUDGE JAN: And evidence with regard to that
5 might prejudice the case of the accused. That is why
6 we said, redact.
7 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, and I did not
8 argue, we did not object at the time because we had not
9 had a full opportunity to review the record. I'm not
10 planning on arguing it now, but at some later point
11 during the testimony, after Your Honours have had an
12 opportunity to review what's already in the record, I
13 will be arguing that that matter is relevant, at least
14 for some limited purposes.
15 And so, for now all I'm doing is providing
16 the Court the portions of the record that I will later
17 be relying upon.
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Why don't you wait until
19 that stage before you introduce it.
20 MS. McHENRY: Fine.
21 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Because we're not sure
22 whether it will be admitted at all.
23 JUDGE JAN: The gentleman who was killed in
24 that incident was also detainee in Celebici camp. I
25 think that is evidence. And that gentleman, we have
1 not included in the indictment at all.
2 MS. McHENRY: Yes, Your Honour, we are not --
3 the matter that I'm discussing does not have to do with
4 the Bubalo issue.
5 JUDGE JAN: I thought it was in reference to
6 that incident.
7 MS. McHENRY: No, it's not in reference to
8 that incident. Thank you
9 Cross-examined by Ms. McHenry:
10 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. Sir, I know you don't know the exact date
13 that you started working in Celebici, but you would
14 agree it was some 7 to 10 days after the fall of
15 Bradina; correct?
16 A. I think it was mid-June, maybe the first half
17 of June, something like that.
18 Q. Now, is it correct that when you were in
19 Celebici, Mr. Mucic ordered that the rifles of the
20 guards be kept cocked, ready to fire at all times?
21 A. Yes, and Mr. Delic insisted on that.
22 Q. Now, you've already stated that Mr. Mucic was
23 in charge of the camp. Who was in charge of the camp
24 when Mr. Mucic was not present?
25 A. Mr. Delic. When both were not present, then
1 the guard service commander, Sejo Mustafic was in
2 charge.
3 Q. Now, sir, did you have more authority than
4 other guards or different kinds of authority, or just
5 exactly the same authority as other guards?
6 A. The same authority, like all other guards. I
7 was not different from the others in any way. I was
8 doing everything that the others were doing, I had the
9 same orders.
10 Q. Could any guard call a prisoner out of a
11 hangar, or just certain guards?
12 A. Any guard who was on duty, on the mound,
13 above hangar 6. I was not always there. We would be
14 on duty for a certain period of time, and whoever was
15 on duty would be then called in.
16 Q. And then is it correct that when you were not
17 on duty, you could not call a prisoner out of the
18 hangar?
19 A. I could if I had an order of either the
20 commander or his deputy to do so.
21 Q. Now, you mentioned something yesterday, or
22 Monday, about a knife which was given to an Arab
23 TV crew. Can you tell me about that knife and the
24 circumstances under which it was given to the TV crew?
25 A. The knife was found behind the belt, I think,
1 of the person that allegedly had killed Muslims in the
2 second World War, it was found on him.
3 I asked Delic whether I could have the
4 knife. He said yes, and I kept it as a souvenir. It
5 was a knife going back to the second World War. And
6 when a TV crew, whether it was Arab or not I really
7 don't know, Mr. Delic took this knife from me and gave
8 it to them. It was a very small knife.
9 Q. And was Celebici visited on more than one
10 occasion by TV crews?
11 A. Once, as far as I know.
12 Q. And is that when some Arab journalists came?
13 A. Possibly they were Arabs, but I just saw
14 people, individuals. I wasn't present when they were
15 talking, in order to be able to conclude who they were
16 and where they were coming from.
17 Q. Now, you indicated that at least a few people
18 were released from Celebici during the time that you
19 were there. Do you know if two detainees named
20 Vojislav Sinikovic and Vladimir Sinikovic were released
21 when you were in Celebici?
22 A. I don't know the names, but there were two
23 brothers, and Redzo Balic came and a neighbour came to
24 pick them up in order to exchange these two for Redzo's
25 brother. And I know that Redzo came with a car and a
1 tire blew out, and they had to change it. So, these
2 were two persons who were rather tall.
3 Q. And do you know on whose authority those
4 people were released? Or did you ever see any
5 documents related to their release?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Now, Mrs. McMurrey talked to you about counts
8 46 and 47 of the indictment, dealing with inhumane
9 conditions, and she asked you some questions about
10 food. Now, the detainees would bring the food from the
11 administration building to the area right in front of
12 hangar 6; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. Two detainees would go from the hangar
14 with a guard, they would take and receive the food from
15 the administration building and in front of the hangar
16 they would be distributing the food to detainees who
17 would be coming out in groups.
18 Q. And the detainees would come out in groups of
19 five, wouldn't they?
20 A. I know that these were groups between five
21 and ten, something like that. They would hold these,
22 they would have their plate, plates, and they would be
23 sitting in front of the hangar on the floor, or they
24 would be just kneeling down and eating.
25 Q. And they only had a few minutes to eat;
1 didn't they, each group?
2 A. Well, the time wasn't limited. They could
3 eat it as long -- they had the portion, there was no
4 need to rush them. They had their rations and they
5 could eat it as long as they wished. In five minutes
6 or longer.
7 Q. Now, you stated in, when you testified here
8 this week, that the prisoners got the same amount of
9 food as the guards. You would agree with me in your
10 prior statement to the office of the Prosecutor, you
11 stated that the prisoners may have gotten less food.
12 Do you remember that? And if so, what's changed your
13 mind?
14 JUDGE JAN: Read the whole sentence.
15 Q. The question you were asked, "What about the
16 food that was given to the detainees?" And you said,
17 "We got the same food. The same food was given to the
18 prisoners and the guards. The food was the same. It
19 may have been less because there were so many."
20 JUDGE JAN: May have been.
21 MS. McHENRY: My question used the word
22 "may", Your Honour.
23 Q. "We got what we got, that was distributed."
24 Do you remember giving that answer before?
25 A. Yes, the ratio of food for us and for
1 detainees, we were 25, 30, guards, we received a
2 certain quantity, while they were in 250 or 300
3 detainees. Their quantities were much bigger in total.
4 But the same food came in, but of course, the
5 quantities could have been different. But we couldn't
6 decide about that.
7 Q. So, would you agree that the quantities may
8 have been less for the prisoners, for each individual
9 prisoner; is that correct?
10 A. Possibly, possibly. I was looking when they
11 were, they were distributing, they would get a ladle.
12 Q. Now, going to the tunnel, about 40 persons
13 were kept in tunnel number 9; weren't they?
14 A. Approximately, possibly.
15 Q. And there was a bucket that was used for
16 human waste for when the detainees could not go outside
17 to use the toilet inside tunnel number 9; wasn't there?
18 A. I didn't know, wasn't acquainted with the
19 situation inside hangar number 9. I knew better what
20 the situation was in hangar number 6. I was there more
21 frequently, and at the gate.
22 MRS. McHENRY: May I ask that the witness be
23 shown Defence Exhibit 9/4? I have extra copies with
24 some English translations on them for the judges.
25 Q. Sir, that was an exhibit that was previously
1 shown to witnesses from your counsel. That's a drawing
2 you made; isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you would agree with me that in tunnel
5 number 9 you've drawn something and said that that's
6 where the human waste pail is; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Does that refresh your recollection as to
9 whether or not tunnel number 9 had a human waste pail
10 in it?
11 A. These drawings were drawn on the basis of the
12 statements of the witnesses. I knew, on the basis of
13 that, I knew where they were sitting, and I made this
14 drawing on the basis of the statement. But I haven't
15 seen the bucket. Possibly it existed, but I have not
16 seen it.
17 Q. Now, the prisoners kept in tunnel 9 were
18 considered to have been the leaders of the Serbs, the
19 local Serbs, weren't they?
20 A. Yes. And the organisers of the rebellion,
21 and the most dangerous ones.
22 Q. Now, Mrs. McMurrey read out to you parts of
23 counts 46 and 47, to you, dealing with inhumane
24 conditions. But she didn't read out the part about the
25 atmosphere of terror created by the killing and abuse
1 of other detainees.
2 Sir, you would agree that you participated in
3 the existence of an atmosphere of terror in the
4 Celebici camp; wouldn't you?
5 A. Yes, I was executing orders. I wasn't the
6 one to be able to decide whether somebody should be
7 beaten or not. There were also other guards who did
8 these things, and I was not present. So, if we want to
9 speak about it, we could say that everybody who was in
10 Celebici influenced the creation of such an atmosphere.
11 Q. So, your statement would be that you didn't,
12 you're not the only person who participated in the
13 existence of an atmosphere of terror, but you were
14 certainly one of the persons; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, you would also agree with me, wouldn't
17 you, that in 1992 there were many reports in Konjic, in
18 the town, about the mistreatment in Celebici?
19 A. Many reports?
20 Q. People talking in town about the mistreatment
21 in Celebici.
22 A. I didn't hear anything about it, but I would
23 rarely come from Celebici to Konjic. It's possible
24 that there were, because Celebici is not far from
25 Konjic. It wasn't hidden, concealed so that nobody
1 would know about it. And then many other guards went
2 home, maybe they spoke and talked about it. I don't
3 know.
4 Q. Well, sir, maybe I can refresh your
5 recollection. Do you remember in your previous
6 statement to the office of the Prosecutor, you
7 mentioned the reports about mistreatment several times,
8 and let me just read you one part. Question: "I
9 believe you mentioned before that there were many
10 reports in town about mistreatment of prisoners; is
11 that right?"
12 Answer, "Yes".
13 Question, "Can you tell us about these
14 reports and how widespread they were?"
15 Answer, "It wasn't so much widespread, but it
16 originated from the people who came into the camp to
17 beat the prisoners and then spread stories that we were
18 doing it."
19 Question, "And how did you hear about those
20 stories?"
21 Answer, "I heard about these stories when I
22 went home, and my mother asked me what we were doing
23 there."
24 Question, "This is while you were still at
25 the camp; is that right?"
1 Answer, "Yes".
2 A. Yes, my mother did ask me, but nobody in town
3 would stop me and ask me what are you doing there. But
4 I don't know from where my mother heard that. And this
5 statement is not completely exact. But I heard that
6 the guard, later on, that the guards who were
7 participating in this talked about it. But I heard
8 about that only after joining the military police.
9 Q. Sir, let me go through a number of specific
10 events. And I'll tell you right now that I'm not going
11 to go over in detail the murders and tortures that you
12 remember committing and already testified about, since
13 there is no dispute about them, but I have a few
14 questions about some of them. And I have some
15 questions about some events that you haven't
16 remembered.
17 First, you testified yesterday and Monday
18 about when you and some others murdered Mr. Scepo
19 Gotovac; did you and the other guards use any
20 instruments to kill him or did you just beat and kick
21 him to death?
22 A. I think that one of them had a police baton.
23 Well, the others had their weapons, their personal
24 weapons on them. And when the beating began it was
25 dark, and the man was the ground. So, it was very
1 difficult to see who was beating with what, hitting
2 with what.
3 Q. Do you remember, before the final beating,
4 had Mr. Gotovac ever been beaten before, to your
5 knowledge, while in Celebici? If you don't remember,
6 you can say you don't remember.
7 A. I know that he came already beaten up to our
8 camp.
9 Q. And my question is, do you -- ?
10 A. I don't remember. Possibly.
11 Q. Now, with respect to the final beating, do
12 you remember everyone else who was participating in or
13 present during the beating besides any detainees?
14 A. I know that we were five of us, but I really
15 can't remember the names.
16 Q. Now, let's talk for a minute about a killing
17 where you had not received orders, and you talked in
18 detail about before the killing you had gone to view
19 some murders in an area near Repovci, and you heard
20 that some Serbs from Bradina had done it.
21 Now at some later point you heard it was not
22 Serbs that had killed the people in Repovci; is that
23 correct?
24 A. That is what is being, that's the word that's
25 being spread now.
1 Q. Now, is it correct that on your way back to
2 Celebici camp from Repovci you tried to capture a Serb
3 woman to kill her, too, but she got away?
4 A. This didn't happen. I can't recall it
5 happening.
6 Q. You stated when you got back to Celebici you
7 and about eleven other people started beating two
8 detainees until finally Mr. Delic stopped the beatings.
9 What was the name of the detainees, if you remember?
10 A. I know that they were the ones who would
11 regularly distribute food. One I've seen on the video,
12 one of them.
13 Q. Do you remember their names, or not?
14 A. No, no, I don't.
15 Q. Then you indicated you were still angry so
16 you went to hangar 6 and told all the Serbs from
17 Bradina to stand up. You would agree with me you
18 wanted to hurt someone and you wanted that person to be
19 a Serb from Bradina; didn't you?
20 A. Do you mean -- you see, I was angry, angry on
21 what I've seen and what I've heard, and this was my
22 reaction. I didn't come there with the intention of
23 killing anyone.
24 Q. But you would agree with me that you wanted
25 to hurt someone, and you wanted that person to be a
1 Serb from Bradina, to take out your anger. That would
2 be a fair statement; wouldn't it?
3 A. This is how you could put it.
4 Q. Now, the person you killed, his name was
5 Bosko Samoukovic; wasn't it?
6 A. Yes, I was the cause of his death, but I
7 didn't go there with the intent to kill him. Yes, that
8 was his name.
9 Q. And what did you use to beat him?
10 A. There was a plank, or something like that.
11 Q. Did you use your right or your left hand when
12 you beat him?
13 A. Left. Not just when I was beating him.
14 There were two or three before him.
15 Q. Now, did I understand you to say that you
16 can't remember exactly how Mr. Samoukovic got to the
17 infirmary?
18 A. I know how he did. I told you that I think I
19 ordered two or three detainees and together with them
20 we took him to the infirmary. He could walk, but we
21 were carrying him.
22 Q. And so he was carried rather than driven,
23 you're sure about that?
24 A. No, not as far as I can recall it. He was
25 actually carried on the hands that were clinched
1 underneath him by two detainees, so he was sitting on
2 their hands.
3 Q. Now, what happened after you killed
4 Mr. Samoukovic? In other words, was there any kind of
5 report that you made? Did you talk to anyone about
6 this? Did anybody ask you about it?
7 A. At the time when we were still in the
8 infirmary, I was standing at door while he was examined
9 by the doctors, Hazim Delic came to the infirmary to
10 see what happened because there was a number of other
11 guards that gathered there. He started raising hell,
12 shouting at me. And after about an hour I was summoned
13 to his office and he told me that he had to yell at me
14 in front of these other guards and "Who fucks his
15 mother", sorry I have to use these words, he
16 said, "Fuck his mother, you should have killed him."
17 Q. Going to another death in Celebici, Mr.
18 Slavko Susic. Is the only time you saw Mr. Susic in
19 Celebici camp when you were bringing him to tunnel nine
20 and you hit him just a few times? Did you ever see him
21 in Celebici at any other time?
22 A. No. I cannot recall it. Maybe I happened to
23 be there when I was off duty and when they were getting
24 out I could have seen him. Next to tunnel 9 there was
25 always a guard. In the morning two, three guards would
1 come who were off duty to help this guard next to
2 tunnel 9 to take the detainees out to the toilet, to
3 the washing area, and I may have happened to be there,
4 but, and see him, but I can't recall it now.
5 Q. Now, the occasion that you do remember, you
6 stated that other persons, guards, were hitting him
7 with a bat and with sticks. Can you tell us what kind
8 of bat and what kind of sticks were being used by the
9 other persons?
10 A. One was hitting him with a police baton, and
11 the others were hitting him by hands, because it was a
12 very narrow area, there was not room enough for any
13 larger object to be used for that purpose.
14 Q. Now, do you remember everyone who was present
15 or participating in this beating of Mr. Susic?
16 A. I think there was a guard who was called
17 Focak, the others I do not know. Focak was a very
18 hefty man, so I recognised him.
19 Q. I'm sorry, are you saying that right now you
20 don't remember who the other people were, or are you
21 saying that at the time you didn't know who they were?
22 A. I can't remember it now. I probably knew
23 these people, if they were guards, but I can't recall
24 their names right now.
25 Q. Do you remember, was this during the day or
1 night?
2 A. I think it was about five, 6.00 p.m. when he
3 was brought in. I think that was the time.
4 Q. Okay. Now, you would certainly agree that
5 your hand and your asthma did not prevent you from
6 killing Mr. Gotovac and Mr. Samoukovic, did it?
7 A. I did not kill. I did not kill. Are you
8 talking about Susic?
9 Q. No, I'm sorry, I have gone on to a different
10 question. I am just -- I take it you would agree --
11 well, let me just move on. Now, I would like to talk
12 to you about Mr. Simo Jovanovic. Now, your testimony
13 is that you are called him out of the hangar and you
14 helped bring him back to the hangar, but that you
15 didn't actually beat him yourself, is that correct? Is
16 that your testimony?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now who was it who actually beat him?
19 A. I know that those were the guards who came
20 from the Idbar village. I know one who had this large
21 gavel that you use to beat meat. He would carry it
22 around. And the next day he said that he would use the
23 gavel and hit him on his head and everywhere else.
24 Q. Now you say when these people first came,
25 these other guards, and asked for Simo Jovanovic, you
1 were supposed to call them out. Why is it that the
2 other guards didn't call them out themselves? Why did
3 they need you to call Mr. Jovanovic out of the hangar?
4 A. Because he was not allowed to have contact
5 with detainees because he was not on duty. It was my
6 duty to communicate with the detainees, since I was the
7 guard on duty there.
8 Q. I thought you said just a few minutes ago
9 that if someone had an order from the commander or the
10 deputy commander, the guard could call someone out of
11 the hangar themselves, even when they weren't on duty
12 or on post?
13 A. He would get the order. He would ask the
14 person on the guard post to call up the person, the
15 detainee, that is. If I was not on duty, I couldn't do
16 it. It had to be done by the guard on duty on that
17 guard post. Of course, if I had been ordered to do it,
18 I would then take over such a detainee who would have
19 come out, but I couldn't call him up unless I was on
20 duty.
21 Q. And do you remember testifying differently
22 just a few minutes ago about that issue?
23 A. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, but
24 that's how it was. That's how it worked.
25 Q. Okay. Now, when these people first came and
1 asked for Mr. Jovanovic, you thought they were going to
2 beat him, didn't you?
3 A. I assumed it.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. But I couldn't do anything. I couldn't
6 prevent it.
7 Q. Now, you could hear the beating from where
8 you were inside your guard shelter and -- that's
9 correct, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you stated that the beating lasted about
12 twenty minutes and you could hear the beating and you
13 could hear the shouts. Could you hear Mr. Jovanovic
14 begging for his life?
15 A. Maybe. I know that I heard voices, but I
16 can't recall the words. I heard voices. I heard
17 swearing.
18 Q. I am going to turn to something else, sir.
19 Mr. Nedeljko Draganic, on how many occasions was Mr.
20 Draganic beaten, if you can remember?
21 A. You mean by the other guards?
22 Q. I am asking just how many times that you know
23 of that he was beaten in Celebici.
24 A. I was present once, maybe I was present on
25 some other occasions when he was beaten up, but the
1 rest I don't know. Because I really didn't know
2 everything that was going on there. When I was on duty
3 and what I was told to do, I know about. But what were
4 the orders given to the other guards, I don't know.
5 Q. Now, you stated you remembered hitting Mr.
6 Spasoje Miljevic once. And on another occasion you
7 burned his leg so that he would not be able to walk, do
8 you also remember burning his hand with a heated knife,
9 similar to what you did with Momir Kuljanin?
10 A. I don't recall it really.
11 MS. McMURREY: He never said he burned Momir
12 Kuljanin with a knife, I don't believe.
13 MS. McHENRY: I believe he did say that.
14 Q. Sir, it's correct isn't it, that you did and
15 you testified that you burned Mr. Momir Kuljanin with a
16 knife?
17 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, I apologise, I
18 am incorrect in that, I withdraw the objection.
19 MS. McHENRY: Okay, thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: It was a metal object. Whether
21 it was a knife or not, I don't know. But I know that
22 it was a metal object.
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. And you can't recall if you similarly burned
25 Mr. Miljevic, is that correct?
1 A. If I had done it, I would certainly remember
2 it just as I can remember the former incident.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. He could walk afterwards.
5 Q. Okay. Now, with respect to Mirko Babic, you
6 said you didn't know who he was, but you would agree
7 with me that in 1996, when you gave your statement to
8 the Office of the Prosecutor, you were quite positive
9 about who Mr. Babic was; is that correct?
10 A. Could you please read my statement to me?
11 Q. Sir, certainly. Do you know -- and I am
12 going to read portions of this. I am starting on page
13 80, portions of the transcript of how you know him.
14 There are other discussions about what happened to him
15 that I won't read now. You were asked, "do you know
16 anything about the treatment of Mirko Babic?" And you
17 said, "I know that when he was brought in, he was
18 beaten." You were asked, "do you know who it is?" And
19 you answered, "yes." And then later on, you were
20 asked, "what was the age of Mirko Babic?" And you
21 said, "40 to 50, middle-aged." You were then asked if
22 you knew him from before and you said, "no." And you
23 were specifically asked, "how do you remember this
24 person?" And you stated, "I know when they took his
25 personal information, he had a moustache." You were
1 then asked, "you just remember that from mentioning his
2 name that one time?" And you answered, "yes, when they
3 would come out in the morning, I knew who he was."
4 Does that refresh your recollection about the
5 fact in 1996 you did know who Mirko Babic was?
6 A. It may very well be that I confused him for
7 another person. I really didn't know who Mirko Babic
8 was until he arrived here to testify as a witness.
9 That was the first time I saw him and I thought,
10 perhaps, I could recall this person, but it may be very
11 well be that I confused him for another person.
12 Q. Okay.
13 A. I mean, I am really not sure. I believe that
14 this is what I said, but it may very well have been
15 that I have confused him with someone else because many
16 of such people were brought in.
17 Q. Okay. Now, let me talk for a minute about
18 the women in the camp. It's correct, isn't it, that
19 you believe that the women in the camp were all
20 civilians?
21 A. You mean personally I thought they were?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Yes. I mean, I couldn't fathom it that women
24 of that age could have been members of a military
25 unit. I had, earlier had an opportunity to see women,
1 but they were younger, who were members of the military
2 unit. I was not sure, that was my assumption.
3 Q. And, in fact, you believe that the reason
4 Mrs. Cecez was in the camp was because her husband was
5 thought to be a leader of the Serbs, correct?
6 A. That was the story.
7 Q. And do you know anything about the treatment
8 of Mrs. Cecez or Mrs. Antic when they were in the
9 camp?
10 A. I heard stories.
11 Q. And, in fact, was it generally reported in
12 the camp that they had been raped while they were in
13 Celebici?
14 A. I didn't hear that at that time. I heard it
15 in the course of the year 1994, '96 from Mr. Delic what
16 was going on with these women. But, at that time,
17 nobody was really speaking about it. I personally
18 heard no one to that effect, except the case that I
19 witnessed.
20 Q. And what did Mr. Delic tell you about the
21 treatment of Mrs. Cecez and Mrs. Antic?
22 A. That they were raped.
23 Q. Okay. Mr. Delic tell you anything about who
24 raped them?
25 A. He said that he raped them and he was
1 bragging about it when we were at the Zenica prison.
2 He would tell this to everyone who wanted to listen
3 him. And everyone knew him there as a person who slept
4 with 600 women.
5 Q. Your Honours, I now have a question about a
6 sexual assault victim whose identity has not been made
7 public and I would ask that we go into private
8 session.
9 (In private session)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Page 15361 redacted - in closed session
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (In open session).
18 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed in
19 this matter.
20 MS. McHENRY:
21 Q. Sir, you indicated that after the beatings --
22 and, I'm sorry, after, when you saw the murdered people
23 in Repovci, you were ordered to interrogate the Djordic
24 brothers, which you did. Who told you that you should
25 interrogate the Djordic brothers?
1 A. Mr. Mucic.
2 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Mucic
3 told you in interrogating the Djordjic brothers that
4 you should use every possible way to interrogate them;
5 is that correct?
6 A. He may have said this, I don't recall it. He
7 just told me, I know that to take statements from them,
8 oral or written.
9 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you something, sir,
10 and see if it refreshes your recollection.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 263.
12 MS. McMURREY: I would like to know if the
13 Defence is going to be given a copy of it, so we know
14 what it is that we're referring to.
15 MS. McHENRY: Yes, I did supply extra copies.
16 It has previously been provided to defence, but, right,
17 there are extra copies now that the usher can give you.
18 MS. McMURREY: Is this the document you
19 provided at lunch time today or the first break?
20 MS. McHENRY: No, I'm sorry, this is the
21 document provided many months ago.
22 MS. McMURREY: Okay, thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have found the section
24 in question.
25 MS. McHENRY: Okay.
1 Q. And, sir, does that refresh your recollection
2 about whether or not Mr. Mucic ordered you to question
3 the Djordjics in every possible way?
4 A. Maybe. But, if I may, I would like to
5 explain statement, may I?
6 Q. Well, sir, at this point, you don't need to
7 explain the statement, you can just say whether it does
8 or does not refresh your recollection about whether or
9 not Mr. Mucic told you to use every possible way?
10 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I am going to
11 object. She has placed the statement before him and
12 has asked him to explain it and she is saying that he
13 can't. And will the Court allow him to respond to the
14 statement that's been placed before him?
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Put your question and
16 let him explain what he tell us.
17 MS. McHENRY:
18 Q. Sir, you can explain it, but can you first
19 tell me whether or not this document refreshes your
20 recollection as to whether or not Mr. Mucic told you to
21 use every possible way in interrogating the Djordjic
22 brothers?
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Initially when you asked
24 him the question, he couldn't recollect that right as
25 to the taking of the statements. All he knew he was
1 asked to take statements. That was what he said.
2 MS. McHENRY: He stated he did not remember
3 if Mr. Mucic said that.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You're now taking him
5 back to his statements.
6 MS. McHENRY: Yes.
7 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: To justify that he might
8 have said such a thing. This is what he wants to
9 explain.
10 THE WITNESS: I really can't recall it,
11 whether Mucic said it or not. But this statement here,
12 I think that there is another statement, unless I am
13 wrong. This was made in connection with the indictment
14 issued against Mucic, Zdravko, and Ivica at the
15 military court in Konjic. And I was asked, I think
16 that Mr. Delic too was asked to make statements
17 concerning the acts committed by Mucic because he was a
18 Croat. And, at that time, there was a conflict, a
19 clash actually, between the BiH army and the HVO. So
20 it may very well be true, but I can't recall exactly
21 what he had told me. I just know that he had told me
22 to take a written or oral statement.
23 MS. McHENRY:
24 Q. And was this the only time that Mr. Mucic
25 asked you to take statements or were there other
1 occasions where Mr. Mucic also asked you to take
2 statements?
3 A. Only this time.
4 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Mucic indicate to you why
5 he chose you to take these statements from the Djordjic
6 brothers?
7 A. No, I don't know.
8 Q. Now, it's correct, isn't it, that as part of
9 taking the statement, you did mistreatment the Djordjic
10 brothers, didn't you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You would agree that you mistreated them, but
13 it wasn't part of their interrogation; is that your
14 testimony, sir?
15 A. When I was interviewing them, I did not beat
16 them. They were beaten up on other occasions.
17 Q. Well, sir, you would agree that you,
18 yourself, mistreated the Djordjic brothers, wouldn't
19 you?
20 A. Yes. When Mr. Delic came to the hangar
21 together with me, if you're referring to that incident,
22 then, yes.
23 Q. And is it your testimony, sir, that when you
24 put the fuse on Mr. Djordjic and when you made them
25 perform oral sex, it was unrelated to their
1 interrogation? Is that what you believed?
2 A. No, no, that happened after the incident in
3 the administration building with Mr. Nimic. That
4 happened afterwards. And I think that nobody
5 interrogated them afterwards or talked to them about
6 these events in Repovci while they were staying in
7 Celebici.
8 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think, Mrs. McHenry,
9 we might break now and come back at 4.30.
10 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 4.00 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.34 p.m.
13 THE REGISTRAR: I remind you, sir, that you
14 are still under oath.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You may proceed,
17 Mrs. McHenry.
18 MS. McHENRY: Thank you.
19 Q. Sir, in 1992 you knew that Mr. Mucic was
20 Zejnil Delalic's right hand man, didn't you?
21 A. I didn't know that. I told that to you, but
22 I didn't know it for, as a certainty. I heard that
23 from Mitko Pirkic. I'm not sure, I don't know.
24 Q. Now, there was a written notice posted in
25 Celebici from Mr. Zejnil Delalic concerning who had
1 authority to enter Celebici camp; wasn't there?
2 A. I know that there was an oral order by
3 Mr. Mucic.
4 Q. Sir, do you remember in 1996, after you were
5 indicted, but before you were arrested, giving an
6 interview to a Bosnian newspaper?
7 A. Yes, yes, I do recollect that I gave the
8 interview.
9 Q. And you were reported, sir, in that
10 interview, to have indicated that if Mr. Delalic
11 learned that a guard had mistreated prisoners, he would
12 have the guards sent to the front-line, and that there
13 was a written order from Mr. Delalic posted in the camp
14 concerning who had authority to enter the camp. Do you
15 remember saying those things when you gave your
16 interview in 1996?
17 A. I never said that. I gave an explanation. I
18 gave my statement to the prosecutors what was the
19 situation, and I can repeat that, if you want.
20 Q. Maybe just -- and the explanation you gave in
21 your interview with the office of the Prosecutor was
22 that you did give an interview, that they correctly
23 reported everything you said, except for the part
24 dealing with Mr. Delalic.
25 And is that still your testimony, sir, that
1 everything else was correct, and everything else
2 correctly stated what you said to the journalists, and
3 it was only the part about Mr. Delalic that you didn't
4 say to the journalists?
5 MS. McMURREY: Your Honours, may I just ask
6 for the assistance of the defendant if he could please
7 be shown a copy of this document to refresh his
8 memory? I don't know that any of us have seen it.
9 MS. McHENRY: It was an exhibit to his
10 statement and given that the witness appears to
11 remember it without any problem, I don't think it's
12 necessary. Of course, if the witness asks for it, I'll
13 do it.
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Any questions on that
15 statement, if you're not correct what he has said, it I
16 think it might not be necessary. But you can explain
17 to him what the situation is.
18 Q. You would agree, when asked about this
19 article in your interview with the office of the
20 Prosecutor, you agreed that you gave the interview, and
21 you indicated that everything in the article correctly
22 represented what you had said with the exception of the
23 part dealing with Mr. Delalic; is that correct?
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You might as well show
25 him that aspect.
1 A. I know that they were asking me about the
2 structure of the prison, how the guards function, and
3 at one point they asked me about Zejnil Delalic, but I
4 couldn't say anything about that person. But they were
5 mainly focusing on the events in Celebici. And at that
6 time I didn't say anything about Zejnil Delalic, and I
7 was surprised when I saw that article. I haven't seen
8 it prior to that occasion when you've shown it to me.
9 Q. Because it's already discussed in your
10 interview with the office of the Prosecutor, I don't
11 believe it's necessary to take the time to go through
12 it. Let me move on to another matter.
13 Sir, when witnesses, Prosecution witnesses
14 have been in the courtroom, you and other accused have
15 made threatening comments to the witnesses; haven't
16 you?
17 A. Mucic and myself, we only talked about that,
18 but I didn't threaten anyone. I think I made a comment
19 that listening to all that has been said and that I had
20 done all that has been stated here, I would feel less
21 guilty, I would feel better than to listen to all that
22 has happened and that which has not happened.
23 Remembering that. But somebody else interpreted that
24 differently, and that's the way it turned out.
25 Q. So, sir, is it your testimony that when
1 Witness J was on the stand that you did not raise your
2 voice and say you wanted to lie him on concrete and
3 step on him not one time but a million times?
4 A. No, no, absolutely not.
5 Q. Now, sir, are you aware of any improper
6 efforts made by any accused in this case to tell
7 Defence witnesses exactly what they should say when
8 they testify?
9 A. Do you, you're asking if I know about such
10 attempts?
11 Q. Are you aware of any improper efforts or
12 attempts?
13 A. I just commented for myself, I don't know
14 what others did. I analyse all the witnesses, be it
15 from the Defence or for the Prosecution. That's all.
16 Q. Now, sir, is it a fair statement that you
17 can't even remember all the times you beat, mistreated
18 or tortured detainees in Celebici?
19 A. I don't know whether I hit somebody once or
20 five times, but if I beat somebody severely, or killed
21 somebody, I think that I could remember that. But I
22 cannot remember if I kicked one somebody. But if some
23 bigger things occurred, that, yes, maybe not
24 immediately in the beginning, but after all that has
25 been stated in front of the Court, I think that I can
1 remember.
2 Q. Well, let's then talk about some potentially
3 bigger incidents. Can you remember all the times that
4 you burned people, either by setting them on fire,
5 setting their clothes on fire, putting a burning fuse
6 around them? Can you remember all those instances?
7 A. I know, I remember Spasoje Miljevic, and
8 Kuljanin, Momir Kuljanin. That is where I perpetrated
9 that, while for the others, I really don't know.
10 Q. Mr. Djordjic, you testified about when you
11 burned him.
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And my question, sir, is: Can you remember
14 if there were any other occasions when you burned
15 people?
16 A. No, I don't remember, but probably I would
17 remember if that had occurred. To tell you the truth,
18 I didn't remember even these three cases when I arrived
19 here in 1996. I didn't remember them. But I can say
20 with, state with certainty that I participated in these
21 events. While for the others, I really don't know.
22 Q. Now, what kind of instruments, besides police
23 batons, sticks, fuses and setting people on fire, what
24 other kinds of instruments were used by you and the
25 other persons in Celebici to mistreat the detainees?
1 A. I generally kicked with my feet because I
2 couldn't do it with my hands. Others used, for
3 example, a baseball bat, then parts of chairs.
4 Q. How about gas masks?
5 A. I know that they were in the warehouse under
6 lock and key.
7 Q. Sir, you would agree with me that the gas
8 masks were sometimes used on detainees; wouldn't you?
9 A. I don't know, it's possible. But if you ask
10 me what I know, I don't know about that. Because I
11 repeat, I wasn't the only guard there. You should
12 verify with all, check with all guards what was
13 happening. And I didn't do it, didn't use it, and I
14 didn't have any access to these gas masks, they were
15 under lock and key in Building D.
16 Q. And now, sir, is it your testimony that you
17 never heard of gas masks being used against detainees
18 when you were in Celebici?
19 A. Possibly I heard it then, in Celebici, but I
20 don't remember now. Many events took place throughout
21 the day or at night, and then I would hear these
22 stories the next day. I didn't give them much
23 importance. And then with time, this is forgotten,
24 particularly if I wasn't in, on the spot where this was
25 happening.
1 I have experienced many, many things from
2 1992 until the present day.
3 Q. Let me see if this refreshes your
4 recollection, sir. Prosecution Exhibit 263, which is
5 the statement you gave about the Djordjic brothers that
6 you were shown a few minutes ago; in it you talk about
7 how you put a gas mask on their heads and when they had
8 no air, I took the mask off and continued questioning
9 them.
10 Sir, is it your testimony that you just put
11 that in there about gas masks, even though you didn't
12 know anything about them being used by you or other
13 people in Celebici?
14 A. Maybe I stated it, but I don't remember it.
15 I know that the gas masks existed in Celebici and that
16 they were in the warehouse. And I really don't know
17 whether anybody used them, but I know that I didn't use
18 them.
19 But this statement, and these were statements
20 against Mucic Zdravko and Mucic (sic) Ivica because it
21 was the idea to put all the blame on the Croats. I
22 mentioned already that many of these statements,
23 allegations are not true. I was at the time in prison
24 when giving these statements. I was in prison when I
25 was giving this statement.
1 Q. Let me ask you, do you remember participating
2 in any false executions, where you would pretend to a
3 detainee that you were going to shoot him, although in
4 fact you did not ultimately shoot him? Do you remember
5 you or anyone else participating in false executions?
6 A. I know -- .
7 MR. MORAN: Excuse me, Your Honour, we have a
8 problem with the transcript, line 19 used the word
9 Mucic, when the used the word Buric. B-U-R-I-C
10 I-V-I-C-A.
11 A. On one occasion I wasn't on duty, and three
12 of us, on orders of Mr. Delic, we came in front of
13 hangar 6. He brought out a person by the surname of
14 Kuljanin, I believe that the person surname was
15 Kuljanin. He brought him out, and he ordered him to
16 stand in front of that mound. There was a drainage
17 channel. And while for the three of us to stand in one
18 line, as if we would be falsely executing him.
19 And Delic gave us orders how to prepare and
20 cock the guns. I remember that case in which I was
21 present.
22 Q. Were prisoners ever placed in manholes?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Tell us what you know about when prisoners
25 were placed in manholes, Mr. Landzo.
1 A. I remember when a prisoners from tunnel
2 number 9 were taken, all the guards were accompanying
3 this group of detainees from tunnel 9 to that manhole,
4 we accompanied them, they were on one side, we on the
5 other. I believe that Mr. Mucic, I'm not sure that he
6 was present, but I know that Mr. Delic was certainly
7 present.
8 Q. Do you remember if prisoners were ever made
9 to drink urine?
10 A. I don't know that.
11 Q. Do you remember cigarettes ever being put out
12 in detainees hands?
13 A. I didn't do it. I never smoked cigarettes,
14 and I don't know about that.
15 Q. Now, you indicated that you were ordered to
16 torture and even kill prisoners, and sometimes other
17 guards received similar orders. Do you know if all the
18 other guards were ordered to mistreat prisoners, or was
19 it just some guards?
20 A. I, while I was at the guard position at
21 hangar 6 I could hear the noises of hits, beatings,
22 shouts, and somebody else was doing that. That was my
23 conclusion. So, I believe others received orders,
24 because sometimes I would come on guard duty in the
25 morning and I would see that there are beaten persons.
1 I don't know, however, if they had the order, but I
2 assumed they did have the orders to do it.
3 Q. Well, sir, would you agree with me that there
4 were some guards, not the majority, but some guards who
5 did not mistreat prisoners?
6 A. I can't recall it. At the time when I was
7 there, I can't recall this sort of guards. Maybe
8 afterwards, because I just spent a month-and-a-half,
9 and when I left, other guards would come. I heard from
10 stories in town that new guards would come in, maybe
11 they did it.
12 Let me just tell you that one person among
13 the guards, Mustafic Sejo, I think was his name, was
14 the only person that didn't do it. He was in charge of
15 receiving the food, distributing the food, while all
16 the others, more or less, took part in it. On one
17 occasion, there were 15 guards that would beat up a
18 detainee.
19 Q. And was that on orders?
20 JUDGE JAN: How would he know?
21 A. Yes, because Mr. Delic was present on that
22 occasion. And when this detainee was beaten, he caused
23 an injury to his leg.
24 Q. Were you present on this occasion?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was the detainee, if you remember?
2 A. Zeljko Ceces, called "Spanac."
3 Q. Were Samir Hondo, Sarif Pajic or Senad
4 Omerka, do you know if they were guards when you were
5 Celebici?
6 A. Samir Hondo was there while I was at
7 Celebici. Omerka I'm not sure. I can't recall whether
8 he was there at the time I was at Celebici. I saw him
9 later on the videotape, he was a refugee and he lived
10 in that part of Celebici next to the camp. But I
11 cannot really tell you whether he was there at the time
12 when I was at Celebici.
13 Q. Did you ever see Samir Hondo mistreat
14 prisoners?
15 A. Not me personally.
16 Q. As far as you know nothing bad happened to
17 Sejo Mustafic and Samir Hondo in Celebici camp; did it?
18 A. What do you mean bad? They were not
19 detainees.
20 Q. Right. But even though they didn't mistreat
21 detainees, they were never beaten or killed themselves;
22 were they?
23 A. I have just told you that I don't know
24 whether they were beating detainees or not. I wasn't
25 there all the time. I would stay at home for a day or
1 two. But I personally never saw them, whether they
2 were doing it or not. That's something I cannot tell
3 you about.
4 Q. Let me then ask, maybe get to the point
5 another way, sir. Were you ever threatened while you
6 were in Celebici?
7 A. Yes, by Mr. Delic, as far as Esad Bubalo is
8 concerned. He said, unless I do it I will be killed
9 together with him, but Bubalo will be killed at any
10 rate.
11 Q. And with respect to the -- Mr. Bubalo was not
12 a Serb detainee in the camp; was he?
13 A. No, he was a member of the BiH army.
14 Q. Do you know, did anything physical happen to
15 Samir Hondo or Sejo Mustafic during the time they
16 worked in Celebici?
17 A. No, not as far as I know. I think no guard
18 was harmed, as far as I know. Although there have been
19 different cases, let me give you the name of the
20 Albanian, he we called him Sok. He was detained, he
21 was, his hands were wound with rope, he was tied to a
22 heater, central heating. And I was sent to his
23 girlfriend at night, I was ordered to bring him back to
24 the camp, and I think that he was threatened to never
25 leave number 9.
1 Q. And what Mr. Sok had done was to leave the
2 camp; correct? Leave the camp without authorisation,
3 he wasn't being punished for mistreating detainees; was
4 he?
5 A. Yes, he left the camp without authorisation.
6 Q. Now, sir, Dr. Gripon said yesterday that in
7 1992 you knew the difference between right and wrong;
8 is that correct? In 1992, did you know the difference
9 between right and wrong?
10 A. I believe I did, but I couldn't influence it.
11 Nobody asked me whether something was right or wrong,
12 if I was asked whether something is right or wrong,
13 many of these things would never have happened. There
14 wouldn't have been the war to start with in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and all these events at Celebici
16 camp.
17 Q. Sir, given that you knew the difference
18 between right and wrong, did you ever make any attempt
19 to report to anyone outside the camp, anyone in the
20 TO or Bosnian Army or the police or the war presidency,
21 or the papers, did you make any attempt to report to
22 anybody what was going on in Celebici camp?
23 A. I didn't try it. And I don't believe anybody
24 would have listened to me, because the commander of the
25 Internal Ministry Forces who was in charge of law and
1 order in the city would come. Had I complained to him,
2 I would probably have not lived to this day. That was
3 my assumption and that's what I was afraid of, and I
4 thought it would be better for me to keep silent.
5 Q. When you left Celebici, nothing bad happened
6 to you as a result of your leaving the camp; did it?
7 You weren't physically harmed at all when you left the
8 camp.
9 A. Maybe I was lucky to have reported to the
10 military police. In '93, I believe, I believe, an
11 attempt of my life was made, somebody tried to kill me
12 when I was arrested in connection with the Bubalo case.
13 Q. Sir, it's a fair statement, isn't it, that in
14 1992 when you were in Celebici, you liked mistreating
15 the people and you liked killing them; didn't you?
16 A. You couldn't put it that way. I saw it all
17 as an order that I have to execute. You know, one
18 thing is to take pleasure over something, and another
19 is to consider something to be your duty. If I liked
20 it, why would I sit with the individual detainees the
21 next day and talk to them? Why would I release, rather
22 let Spaso Miljevic to see his mother if I liked
23 mistreating him?
24 I could sit together with a detainee and talk
25 to him, but if I was given an order, I had to execute
1 it.
2 Q. Well, sir, you would agree that you stated to
3 Dr. Gripon that you mistreated the prisoners for two
4 reasons: One, that you were ordered to do so; two,
5 that you were bored and frustrated. You would agree
6 you stated that to Dr. Gripon; wouldn't you?
7 A. Could you tell me what was the interviewing
8 question?
9 Q. Sir, you were here yesterday, weren't you?
10 And Dr. Gripon stated that you told him that you
11 mistreated the prisoners for two reasons: One. You
12 were ordered; and two, you were bored and frustrated.
13 He also said that you stated that you never had any
14 difficulty doing this and that you enjoyed it. That's
15 correct, isn't it, Mr. Landzo?
16 A. Let me explain to you. May I?
17 Q. Sir, maybe you can first tell me. You did
18 say that to Dr. Gripon; didn't you?
19 A. I may have said it. But that may have been
20 in the course of my, of our first interviews. And if
21 this is the case, then I think I need to explain this.
22 If you go through the reports prepared by Dr. Lagazzi
23 and other doctors you will find similar statements.
24 That was the period immediately upon my
25 arrival here where I was in a tough situation. In the
1 morning I would wake up and I would hear shells falling
2 on the prison. I would hear shots fired. For a period
3 upon my arrival here I thought I was still in a war
4 zone.
5 And many things that I stated in our, my
6 interview with the doctors at that time were not, are
7 not true. I thought they were true at that time, and I
8 thought I would have to state them as such. And, you
9 know, I just couldn't get rid of all these things.
10 Q. So what you would say, sir, is that when you
11 talked with Dr. Gripon in 1997 or 1998, you thought you
12 enjoyed mistreating the prisoners, but now you remember
13 that you didn't enjoy mistreating them; is that a fair
14 statement?
15 A. Could you please repeat this?
16 Q. If I understand your explanation, sir, it's
17 that when you talked to Dr. Gripon in 1997 you thought
18 you had enjoyed mistreating the prisoners, but now you
19 recollect that you didn't enjoy it; is that a fair
20 statement, sir?
21 A. That's what I stated to him at that time.
22 Q. I just asked you, sir, and you just indicated
23 to me that what you stated to him you believed was true
24 at the time. And so you would agree with me that in
25 1997 you thought you enjoyed mistreating prisoners; is
1 that correct?
2 A. These may have been my words in the course of
3 this interview. I said it, I can't say I didn't say
4 it, but what I understood under those words, I cannot
5 explain to you now.
6 Q. Thank you. And so, you would agree with me
7 that you were the guard who was most chosen to mistreat
8 prisoners when the camp management, when Mr. Delic and
9 Mr. Mucic wanted someone to mistreat the prisoners, you
10 were usually their first choice, weren't you?
11 A. You should put this question to them why they
12 made these orders. This is a question that I have been
13 putting to myself time and again and I would like to
14 have an answer to this question, why me?
15 Q. Sir, don't you believe maybe it was you
16 because it was known that you enjoyed it and you would
17 do it without any problem?
18 A. No, the reason was most probably the fact
19 that they knew that if they gave me an order, I would
20 execute it. I would do it and not because I liked it.
21 MS. McHENRY: Thank you, Your Honours, no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Thank you very much.
24 Any re-examinations?
25 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour. May it
1 please the Court?
2 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you may proceed.?
3 Re-examined by Ms. McMurrey:
4 Q. Now Ms. McHenry had just asked you some
5 questions about when you left Celebici. And she said
6 you didn't have any threats or any problems with your
7 life then. Was there a time right after you left
8 Celebici that Sejo Mustific came to your door?
9 A. I think he arrived the same day, in the
10 afternoon, and insisted they should go back. He told
11 me that Mucic, Pavo, has arranged for a passport from
12 me and that with him I should go to Austria, unless I
13 went back this whole ploy would fail. Then, in the
14 course of my stay here in The Hague, in a conversation
15 with Mr. Delic, Mr. Delic told me that Mr. Delic and
16 Mr. Mucic had a plan to kill me and he described how
17 they were going to do it. Whether this is true or not,
18 I don't know. But I am just telling you what I heard
19 from Mr. Delic.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, Ms. McHenry also asked you
21 about detainees placed in manholes in Celebici. Were
22 you also placed in a manhole in Celebici?
23 MS. McHENRY: Objection as to relevancy.
24 JUDGE JAN: The conditions in the manhole.
25 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can ask him.
1 MS. McMURREY:
2 Q. Were you also placed in a manhole in
3 Celebici?
4 A. Not in Celebici, but in Pasovici, the Village
5 of Psasovic. In Celebici I was detained in the
6 infirmary in Building C and this was during the
7 winter. The detainees, however, were located there
8 during the summer.
9 Q. And in Pasovici, were you placed in a manhole
10 in order to persuade you to change a statement?
11 MS. McHENRY: Your Honours, I object, I think
12 this is beyond the scope of cross-examination and
13 irrelevant.
14 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, Mr. Moran spoke
15 for hours about his reasons for changing his statements
16 and changing things inside of his statements. I think
17 this is totally absolute re-direct as a result of
18 cross-examination.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Ask him if he has
20 anything to say.
21 MS. McMURREY:
22 Q. Were you placed in a manhole in order to be
23 persuaded to change one of your statements?
24 A. Yes. Together with me there were Mr. Delic,
25 Buric Ivica and Dedic Osman. The three of us were kept
1 there and very often. I think every other day they
2 would come and fetch me. After midnight they would
3 take me to the second floor of the school building.
4 There was an office there where I was supposed to give
5 statements, where I signed certain statements. They
6 would even beat me up there. And later, Mr. Delic
7 insisted from the inspectors who had done it to explain
8 to him what they were doing and why they were doing
9 it.
10 Q. Now, with the assistance of the usher,
11 actually, it's in -- I'm sorry, it's Prosecution 103.
12 If I might be handed that exhibit so that I can just
13 take one document out of it. Thank you very much.
14 A. I also forgot to add in connection with that,
15 that probably also Mr. Delic and I was threatened that
16 if we don't speak against Mr. Delalic they take us away
17 and we'd never be seen again. And I believe that the
18 same was said also to him. I tried to commit suicide,
19 to jump from a second floor, but one of the
20 investigators stopped me by stretching out a leg,
21 tripping me, and then I was also injured slightly.
22 Q. I want to show you right now what has been
23 marked Prosecution 103. And is that a statement of a
24 co-defendant in this case?
25 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I don't know how you
1 can impeach my client or this man with my client's
2 statement. This is just totally irrelevant.
3 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, if I might
4 respond? He started by saying Mr. Landzo was changing
5 his statement in this Bubalo case, which he questioned
6 from for hours earlier today. All I want to say about
7 going into the contents of the statement, that I want
8 to have Mr. Landzo recognise the lawyer that
9 represented Hazim Delic at the time on this document.
10 That's the only name I want him to recognise because it
11 was his lawyer too.
12 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes, you can go on. But
13 I don't see what relevance it has to what you're doing
14 now.
15 MR. MORAN: I would still object as to
16 relevance because this man has told the OTP and he
17 said, here, the man represented the 4th corps commander
18 or something like that.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: That's all right. I
20 think he wants to know the lawyer who represented him
21 at that time.
22 MS. McMURREY: Yes.
23 Q. If you could just look, Mr. Landzo, at this
24 statement and there is a lawyer's signature on it.
25 What is the name of the attorney that represented Mr.
1 Delic on that statement?
2 A. Here the name is Fjzagic, Esad, who was also
3 defending me, but I didn't know this officially.
4 Q. Thank you very much. I don't need that
5 exhibit any longer. I would like to also ask the
6 usher's assistance to put D 80/4 in front of Mr.
7 Landzo, please. Now at the back of D 80/4, there are
8 some statements that you provided in 1994 to a court in
9 Konjic. Have you found those yet?
10 A. Yes, there are some statements here.
11 Q. And these are the statements that Mr. Moron
12 kept questioning you about today? . He kept saying,
13 you lied in those statements, didn't he say that?
14 A. Yes, the gentleman asked me about that.
15 Q. Now I would you like you to look at your
16 first statement and tell the Court what the date is of
17 that statement.
18 MS. McHENRY: Well, Your Honour, I think the
19 Court can read the documents themselves. I am not sure
20 that it's very helpful to have the accused read
21 documents.
22 MS. McMURREY: I'm sorry, I am not going to
23 ask him to read them, Your Honours.
24 Q. Did you have a chance to look at that
25 document?
1 A. Yes, the statement was given on the 29th of
2 January, 1994.
3 Q. And on the 29th of January, 1994, is
4 everything that you said about Hazim Delic true in that
5 statement?
6 A. Yes, that he issued the order for the killing
7 of that man.
8 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would object to
9 this line of questioning. All that I was asking him
10 whether this statement contained untruths as he told
11 the Office of the Prosecutor. If they want to retry to
12 Bubalo case, I would be happy to do it. But I don't
13 think we have the time or the desire.
14 MS. McMURREY: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Moran
15 took about five hours today telling us that these
16 things were not true. I am just going to ask him if
17 it's true or not. And we'll just go through the piece
18 later. I am not going to have him go through what they
19 contain, but is it true or is it not true.
20 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I would like a
21 ruling on this. But also, I am going to have some,
22 since she's opening up a fairly new area, I may have
23 some more cross-examination.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: On whether these
25 statements are part of the present proceedings, is it?
1 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, those statements
2 were admitted not for the truth of the matter asserted,
3 but -- especially those specific statements, but solely
4 as the basis for part of Dr. Gripon's opinion. And if
5 you check the record, I think you'll find that I ask
6 him if he made statements in 1994 and if those
7 statements were untrue and if that's what he told the
8 Office of the Prosecutor without ever going into the
9 contents of those statements.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I don't think even
11 counsel is going to read the contents of the
12 statements. All counsel is saying that what he has
13 stated are true to the best of his knowledge.
14 MR. MORAN: Well, Your Honour --
15 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We don't even need it
16 for the purposes of this case. It's all voracity. It
17 will have nothing to do with this particular case.
18 MS. McMURREY: And I would like for it to be
19 brought to the Court's attention that the statements
20 are part of Prosecution Exhibit 102 and they're part of
21 Prosecution Exhibit 103 that are already introduced
22 into evidence. I didn't know that until earlier
23 today.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo, would you look at your
25 second statement there that you gave to the Court. And
1 what is the date on that statement?
2 A. The 23rd of February, 1994.
3 Q. And, in that statement, is everything that
4 you said regarding Hazim Delic true also?
5 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, same objection.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MS. McMURREY:
8 Q. And can you go to the next statement that you
9 gave.
10 A. 1st of April, 1994.
11 Q. And is everything regarding Hazim Delic in
12 that statement consistent with the other two and is it
13 true also?
14 A. Yes. That he conveyed the order to me.
15 Q. Okay. I have no further questions on that
16 line, thank you.
17 I don't remember whether it was Mr. Moran or
18 the Prosecutor's cross-examination, but someone asked
19 you whether there had been a conspiracy in Konjic to
20 prevent your witnesses from coming. Can you tell what
21 happened to your family in January of 1998 when your
22 money from the SDA party was cut off?
23 A. My mother asked for an explanation and the
24 person who was issuing that money said that she will be
25 receiving the money. I knew only after Mr. Karabdic
1 had a talk with me.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Landzo, is the whole Defence of
3 Hazim Delic based on the fact that everyone is lying,
4 you and the Prosecution witnesses?
5 MR. MORAN: Objection, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: You can't ask such a
7 question.
8 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, I have no further
9 questions of Mr. Landzo.
10 MR. MORAN: Your Honour, I have got a couple
11 I would like to ask based on some of the new things
12 that were brought up on re-examination --
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I didn't see anything
14 new. No new material came from the re-examination.
15 Everything arose out of cross-examination.
16 JUDGE JAN: Are you closing your Defence
17 now?
18 MS. McMURREY: Your Honour, we have a couple
19 of documents that we would still like to introduce into
20 evidence. I am not sure whether they've already been
21 introduced. They were the medical examinations of the
22 Prosecution witnesses that appeared in this courtroom.
23 And we all agreed that they would be examined. And I
24 would like to offer those into evidence if they weren't
25 offered into evidence before.
1 MS. McHENRY: The Prosecution would agree
2 with that. They were submitted to the Court and
3 they're Court documents. Because, in fact, the Court,
4 I believe, for the most, requested medical
5 examinations. But whether they're formerly exhibits in
6 the trial, I don't know. And if they're not, the
7 Prosecution would also request that every medical
8 examination of a Prosecution witness be made part of
9 the record. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Where a medical
11 examination is directed at the instance of the Trial
12 Chamber, every report arising from that normally has to
13 be submitted to the Trial Chamber.
14 MS. McMURREY: I just wasn't sure if they
15 were admitted into evidence at this point.
16 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think they all have
17 been admitted.
18 MS. McHENRY: If I understand -- excuse me.
19 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
20 MS. McHENRY: If I understand it, they were
21 submitted to the Court and, therefore, they have, for
22 instance, registry numbers. They don't now have an
23 exhibit number. And so whether or not for ease of
24 clarity, it would be helpful to give them separate
25 exhibit numbers, I would defer to the Court. I would
1 think it would help clarify matters, but it's really up
2 the Court as long as it's clear that they're evidence
3 upon which the everyone can rely.
4 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: My memory isn't too
5 sharp here, but which of the medical examinations are
6 you referring to.
7 MS. McMURREY: Only the ones while the
8 witness was here in the courtroom, we asked that he be
9 examined by a neutral examiner here in The Hague and
10 that's the medical report that I am referring to.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think --
12 MS. McMURREY: I just didn't know whether it
13 was into evidence or whether I needed, you know, to
14 tender that into evidence.
15 JUDGE JAN: It can be an exhibit.
16 MS. McMURREY: Okay. So I also wanted to ask
17 that with each one of the Prosecution witnesses that
18 testified, there were photographs taken of the injuries
19 and I believe that these photographs should also be a
20 part of the evidence in this case. Well, there were
21 more photographs taken.
22 JUDGE JAN: I know, he himself admitted. So
23 you don't need photographs of that. Your client
24 himself has admitted.
25 MS. McMURREY: I think the Mirko Babic one is
1 already in evidence.
2 JUDGE JAN: It's only Mirko Babic's injuries
3 that were admitted.
4 MS. McMURREY: Well, also Branko Gotovac,
5 Your Honour, the hernia.
6 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: We did not direct any
7 medical examination of him. I do remember that.
8 MS. McMURREY: Yes, Your Honour, we have a
9 medical examination and a photograph of Branko Gotovac
10 also.
11 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: If you have it.
12 JUDGE JAN: Only the Defence for the case is
13 that is his family --
14 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: Yes.
15 MS. McMURREY: I have to admit that I
16 certainly don't want to look at it again. Anyway, is
17 today Wednesday? I have lost track. Wednesday
18 afternoon and the Defence of Esad Landzo rests.
19 MS. McHENRY: Just, with respect to the
20 photos. My understanding is that the photos were
21 already admitted into evidence and if the Defence
22 counsel is trying to get additional photos in, we would
23 at least be shown those photos.
24 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I remember all those
25 which you have ordered here. We have got the photos
1 and that's nothing new.
2 JUDGE JAN: So the Defence of Landzo rests.
3 Do you have your witness today?
4 MR. OLUJIC: Judge Jan has not switched on
5 his microphone and we are not getting the transcript.
6 JUDGE JAN: I'm sorry, I said now the Defence
7 of Landzo rests. I would ask the Prosecution if their
8 witness is ready. Because the other day we said we
9 would allow that rebuttal witness.
10 MR. COWLES: Yes, the witness is down the
11 block at the Promenade Hotel awaiting my telephone
12 call. He is not present in court right now.
13 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: I think the time is
14 almost 5.30.
15 MR. COWLES: We'll be prepared for tomorrow
16 morning, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KARIBI-WHYTE: So the Trial Chamber
18 will now adjourn until 10.00 a.m. tomorrow morning.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
20 5.25 p.m., to be reconvened on
21 Thursday the 30th day of July, at
22 10.00 a.m.
23
24
25