Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1350

1 Tuesday, 31 July 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [Depositions Hearing]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. My apologies for being

7 late.

8 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

9 You know, sometimes it's difficult to fulfil all of the

10 obligations that we have. I understand that you might be angry at me at

11 this moment, but I hope to be able to count on Mr. Krsnik to make up for

12 these seven minutes that we've lost at the beginning.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Witness H, good morning.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I hope that you've slept well,

17 despite the ordeal that you have been undergoing here. I am now going to

18 ask you to be so kind and help us with the speed of your testimony, and,

19 to the extent it is possible, for you to give us the answers that are as

20 precise as possible. Of course, if the question requires, according to

21 your opinion, certain clarification, do not hesitate to ask the person who

22 is examining you to specify the question. Try to make yourself as

23 comfortable as possible.

24 Mr. Krsnik, if you would be so kind to continue your

25 cross-examination, and it is with pleasure that I can observe that you

Page 1351

1 have chosen to place yourself closer -- at the same time closer to myself

2 and to the witness. You have the floor, Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy. The

4 idea was to ensure a better communication in the courtroom.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

8 Q. Good morning, Witness H.

9 A. Good morning.

10 Q. You have just received appropriate instructions from Mr. Krsnik

11 [as interpreted]. I'm not going to repeat what he has said. I have

12 prepared my questions so as to elicit brief and specific answers for you,

13 and I hope that we will be able not to waste too much time.

14 If you remember, we discussed an agreement yesterday, a political

15 agreement, which was signed in Mostar. The agreement was signed by

16 Mr. Hadziosmanovic, was it not?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. The Croatian side, was it informed? Was it aware of your rift

19 within the SDA as regards Mr. Hadziosmanovic?

20 A. I don't think so.

21 Q. It was a fully legitimate agreement for Croats.

22 A. Not for Muslims, though.

23 Q. Was it a fully legitimate agreement for Croats?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. If the Croats were not aware of what was going on within the SDA

Page 1352

1 and if the agreement was signed on behalf of the SDA, would that

2 constitute a legitimate agreement for Croats?

3 A. Mr. Hadziosmanovic did not have authority to sign such an

4 agreement.

5 Q. Croats knew about it?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Do you distinguish between the HVO as executive political

8 authority in 1992 and the HVO as armed formations, military formations?

9 A. I don't think I'm able to answer that question.

10 Q. HVO had political authority, and you as a politician don't know

11 anything about it?

12 A. It did not have, as far as I'm concerned, not for me.

13 Q. You said that the policy of the SDA was in favour of life with --

14 together with honest Croats. Who were those honest Croats?

15 A. I don't -- to the extent I am competent to divide people into

16 honest and not honest people, I think that those -- the honest Croats are

17 those who were in favour of a unified Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those who

18 were not involved in the establishment of the separate entity, the

19 so-called Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

20 Q. We are talking about the year of 1992?

21 A. Yes, we are.

22 Q. As a member of the SDA and as a participant in the elections, do

23 you know how -- what was the percentage of votes that Croat

24 representatives gained in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. I think that 33 per cent -- that they got 33 per cent vote in the

Page 1353

1 territory of the Mostar municipality. As regards Bosnia and Herzegovina

2 in general, I think it was 17 per cent.

3 Q. I am asking you about the Croat population.

4 A. I don't have that information.

5 Q. They won 95 per cent of the vote from the Croat people within

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Mr. Hadziosmanovic, at the time the agreement was being signed,

9 was he the President of the Mostar branch of the SDA?

10 A. He had lost his authority, his competences, at the time of the

11 rift within the party. He had relatively small number of people behind

12 him. Whether he considered himself the President of the SDA, I don't

13 know.

14 Q. He was replaced at the session of the assembly of the party before

15 the signing of the agreement, was he not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You testified yesterday about honest and dishonest Muslims.

18 Honest Muslims are only those who follow the policy of Alija Izetbegovic

19 and the policy of your party, as far as you're concerned?

20 A. I don't think that I spoke about honest and dishonest Muslims in

21 my testimony.

22 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about it when we mentioned the issue of the

23 rift. I can remind you of the words that you used.

24 A. I may have spoken about Mr. Hadziosmanovic and the several people

25 who made up this 1 per cent of the membership.

Page 1354

1 Q. Then would you please tell me, do you consider the dishonest

2 Muslims to be the ones who did not follow the policy of your party?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The policy of Alija Izetbegovic?

5 A. You should ask Mr. Alija Izetbegovic whether those were the people

6 who did not follow his policy or not. I don't know.

7 Q. Alija Izetbegovic is the President of the SDA, of your party. He

8 was the creator of that policy?

9 A. Yes, that is correct. He is the founder of the Party for

10 Democratic Action.

11 Q. So Alija Izetbegovic was behind the policy of the SDA, so one can

12 perhaps argue that that was the policy of Alija Izetbegovic?

13 A. With all due respect, one man does not constitute a whole party.

14 However, it is assumed that one person is in charge of leading a party or

15 to a certain extent creating the policy of the party, but I should not go

16 as far as to identify his person with the party. It is true that he was

17 the leader of the Party for Democratic Action, but it was by no means his

18 party.

19 Q. Those who did not agree with the policy of the SDA experienced the

20 same fate as Mr. Hadziosmanovic did?

21 A. Those who do not agree with that policy or who are involved in

22 actively changing that policy, of course, are no longer in favour of such

23 a party. They are no longer partisans of that party.

24 Q. This is year 1992. It is the time of the Serbian aggression, and

25 we know very well what was going on in Croatia and in Bosnia and

Page 1355

1 Herzegovina as well. The aggressor can only be defeated with joint

2 struggle, and it was in that period of time that you were engaged in a

3 rift because you did not wish to live together with Croats?

4 A. Could you please be more precise?

5 Q. Yes. I'll try to do that. Regardless of the fact that the Serb

6 aggressor was at your door, it was more important for you to reach

7 agreement with Croats than to put up a common resistance to the Serbs,

8 because we know what they were doing to both of you, both Croats and

9 Bosniaks.

10 A. The fact remains that we were together at some point in time, that

11 we were joint in our action, in the liberation of the town of Mostar, so

12 would you please try to be more precise in your question?

13 Q. As regards the common defence, how many members of the BH army

14 were there and how many members of the HVO made up that force?

15 A. We were equal.

16 Q. Croats were getting killed in order to liberate the town of Mostar

17 by defending both communities, by liberating the surrounding area of the

18 municipality. I hope that we know what we are talking about. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. All three ethnic communities were getting killed. It is true that

21 Croats were getting killed, so were the Serbs but also Muslims in their

22 common defence against the Chetnik aggressor.

23 Q. You're from the town of Mostar. You consider yourself to be a

24 person from Mostar?

25 A. That's what they say.

Page 1356

1 Q. What do you say?

2 A. I'm from Mostar with my heart and soul.

3 Q. When was Mostar liberated?

4 A. On the 12th of June.

5 Q. 1992?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. When the HVO formations entered the eastern part of Mostar having

8 thus liberated the town?

9 A. I have to correct you. Both representatives, the representatives

10 of both people entered that part of the town, but also a portion of Serb

11 forces, that is a certain number of Serb people who were fighting the

12 Chetnik aggressor.

13 Q. Do you know how many there were?

14 A. I don't know. Must have been a small number but I'm not quite

15 sure.

16 Q. Were there more than ten such Serbs?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Marin Topic is also from Mostar?

19 A. Yes. He's a player.

20 Q. I'm referring to Marin Topic. He's a famous painter.

21 He's --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please be asked to make

23 pauses between questions and answers.

24 A. It is my duty to speak the truth and not only the truth.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 1357

1 Q. But I'm asking you about Marin Topic. How do you know that Marin

2 Topic must be Jadranko Topic's brother?

3 A. Mostar is a very small town.

4 Q. The brother of Jadranko Topic is the only Marin Topic in Mostar?

5 A. There may be others as well.

6 Q. Yes, but I'm asking you about that particular individual. You are

7 from Mostar. He's from Mostar too. If you tell someone that his name is

8 Muhamed, any person coming from Mostar can conclude as to his ethnic

9 origin.

10 A. You can conclude a number of -- there are lots of names; however,

11 surnames speak for themselves.

12 Q. Could you give me one Serb whose name -- or Croat whose name is

13 Muhamed in the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14 A. I wouldn't know such an individual.

15 Q. In your statement that you gave to the OTP, you stated that he did

16 not know where you come from, he did not know about your origin. That is

17 why I asked you that question.

18 A. We used to work together. We knew each other. But it was before

19 the war, before the conflict in the territory of Mostar. People did not

20 pay attention to ethnic background of other people.

21 Q. He didn't know that you were a Bosniak?

22 A. No, he didn't.

23 Q. Refugees started pouring in at the time of the Serb aggression

24 into the western part of the town of Mostar, people coming from

25 surrounding parts of Mostar, including the mount of Velez?

Page 1358

1 A. We did not feel like refugees because it was our town, so the mere

2 fact of crossing over from one bank of the river to another, to the other

3 bank of the river, I wouldn't call them refugees.

4 Q. I don't know who you call refugees. If you change your place of

5 residence or if you move to another street, that, I believe, would also

6 qualify for refugees. You can manipulate your answers, but I think we

7 will be able to reach a precise answer. Did refugees come to the western

8 part of Mostar, fleeing the Serb aggression?

9 A. That is quite true. People fled the aggression. People fled the

10 fighting in general.

11 Q. Did that result in the change of demographic structure in the

12 western part of Mostar?

13 A. With the arrival of such people, of new population to this part of

14 town, it was quite obvious that the demographic structure of the town

15 should change.

16 Q. Did that population receive assistance from Caritas, from

17 Merhamet, and other such organisations?

18 A. I don't know. I wasn't really assisted by anyone except for my

19 sister, where I lived at that time.

20 Q. Empty Serb apartments were being taken over; is that right?

21 A. My sister is not a Serb. She is a member of my family, and I went

22 to her place because I had abandoned my home.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I hope that the record speaks for

24 itself, should there be any misunderstanding, but it is absolutely clear,

25 Mr. Fourmy, what my questions are. I think we're in the same situation as

Page 1359

1 we were yesterday.

2 Q. I asked you about refugees, not about your sister or yourself.

3 A. I'm sorry. You are asking me questions and I'm telling you about

4 the facts that I'm familiar with. I don't want to make any assumptions or

5 hypotheses.

6 Q. You do not know that empty Serb apartments were being taken over

7 in Mostar?

8 A. I have the perfect right not to know that, and I'm telling you

9 what I think is the truth.

10 Q. You have the right to tell the truth before this Court.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just a second, please. Thank you.

12 As far as I'm concerned, this is a little too fast. That's one thing.

13 Second, Witness H, I know it is difficult, but I have to appeal to you to

14 try to answer as precisely as possible and as concisely as possible to the

15 questions that are being asked of you. If you understand the question,

16 please try to give us a very brief answer, and there is always the

17 possibility for asking clarification, or you do not know the answer. In

18 that case, you just tell us, "I don't know." I know it's difficult,

19 because, of course, in view of your occupation, your profession and your

20 professional capabilities lead you to give us as much explanation as

21 possible, but we are here in a very precise judicial context, and I should

22 like to ask you to be as precise as possible once again.

23 But, Mr. Krsnik, I don't think that the objective of the

24 cross-examination of the witness is to enter into a fight, into an

25 argument with the witness. Once again, please, I have to tell you:

Page 1360

1 You're asking your questions, you're obtaining answers, and I fully agree

2 with you, the record will speak for itself. So please, try to abstain

3 from making conclusions. Just follow up with another question, if

4 necessary, but please, do not enter into any arguments with the witness,

5 please. And in view of the -- and we are reaching really high levels of

6 intelligence. We risk to enter into a very lengthy debate.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I fully agree with you,

8 and the witness is an educated person. He is perfectly aware of what I'm

9 asking him, but he doesn't simply wish to answer my questions. I have

10 lots of patience, but I have to bear in mind the time as well.

11 Q. At the time we talked about, did the refugees begin to arrive?

12 Let me go back to that, because there was an interruption. Mostar, the

13 aggression has begun, and so on. And following that, I shall have a short

14 series of questions. The enterprises had stopped working at the time?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And the industry around Mostar, Soko, and you know what I mean,

17 did it all come to a stop?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Few people received salaries?

20 A. I think so.

21 Q. And if they were getting their salaries, was it more than 100

22 marks?

23 A. I wouldn't know.

24 Q. As a delegate, did you get your salary?

25 A. I did not.

Page 1361

1 Q. A deputy in the assembly is a volunteer's job?

2 A. No, it isn't.

3 Q. And nonetheless you didn't get your salary?

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. No, it wasn't paid.

10 Q. But you just told us you were being paid for this honorary role.

11 A. Yes, I was getting it because, under common law, people made it --

12 made presents to me.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Just a moment, just a moment.

14 Perhaps, Mr. Krsnik, if you wish to ask questions in this sense, then

15 perhaps we should go into a private session, if you want to do so. It's

16 up to you. But I wish to draw attention to the circumstances under which

17 -- I'm sorry, yes.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No. I wasn't about to ask that

19 question. Again my question was clear: Is a deputy councillor; that is

20 very general. But then the gentleman said what he did, but then I

21 followed up. But let us, yes, go into private session. I only have two

22 or three questions along these lines.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Madam Registrar, private

24 session, please.

25 [Private session]

Page 1362












12 page 1362 redacted, private session.














Page 1363












12 page 1363 redacted, private session.














Page 1364

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please go on.


13 Q. [Interpretation] I think, is it common law to submit false reports

14 and false enrolment in other parties in pursuit of a loftier goal?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. No, no. I thought I would again have to go into a private session

17 because I'm getting to Vranica but, right, never mind, I'll change the

18 order of my questions and then later I'll see.

19 The agreement on the relocation of the command of the BH army and

20 deployment of forces in Mostar was signed by Pasic and Miljenko Lasic,

21 wasn't it?

22 A. I wouldn't know.

23 Q. But you heard about when Vance-Owen's plan, didn't you, as a

24 politician?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1365












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1366

1 Q. Did you discuss that plan within your party?

2 A. We did.

3 Q. And what was the solution advocated by the party with regard to

4 the city of Mostar?

5 A. That it should be a multi-ethnic, multi-national town, as it was

6 before the armed conflict, that is a unified town, an integrated town.

7 Q. But Vance-Owen's plan envisaged something else?

8 A. I wouldn't know that.

9 Q. Your party, political and military leaders on the occasion of

10 Vance-Owen's plan, signed the solution of the Mostar problem prior to the

11 9th of May, didn't they?

12 A. I don't know. I presume you mean Mr. Hadziosmanovic, but then you

13 should ask him that.

14 Q. No, I mean some other gentleman.

15 A. I'm not conversant with this.

16 Q. Being a member of the party, you are not conversant with it but

17 were you conversant with the fact that by this agreement, the BH army

18 command was to be relocated behind its lines?

19 A. I wouldn't know. I don't know what lines you have in mind.

20 Q. Where you had them in Mostar, the BH army.

21 A. We had them where we were.

22 Q. And do you know where you were?

23 A. Well, if you are talking about Vranica, we were in a cellar of the

24 former construction enterprise Vranica, in the both residential and

25 business part of it.

Page 1367

1 Q. I asked you about the lines held by the BH army. Were the BH army

2 members in Vranica and nowhere else?

3 A. That's where the command was, and where the command is in wartime

4 conditions, that is considered that is where the line is, so, yes, that's

5 what I think.

6 Q. And with 18 men whom you meant to sacrifice, in order to get an

7 excuse for the conflict --

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, excuse me, excuse me, I

9 simply wish to seize this occasion to note that you are causing an

10 incident with your questions and it has to -- can have two effects.

11 First, it can be interpreted by the witness as a provocation - you've

12 already heard this - because before you -- so you first have to ask, to

13 have the witness answer easily your questions. Secondly, you can have

14 another question, if it is not a provocation. That is, you have two

15 questions in one question. If you have something to say, ask that, and if

16 you have something else to say, then ask your second question.

17 So please also to be mindful of the breaks between question and

18 answer. Yes. Do go on.


20 Q. [Interpretation] 18 men defended Vranica during that conflict; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I do not have the exact figure.

23 Q. They changed into civilian clothes, did they?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And civilian clothes means an attack on a civilian facility.

Page 1368

1 A. People were on the run.

2 Q. The commander of the BH army prohibited a peaceful settlement,

3 didn't it, or rather, turning over the Vranica building peacefully?

4 A. I wouldn't know.

5 Q. Had the command left peacefully, would the conflict that took

6 place later have taken place?

7 A. I'm not a politician who wants to go into forecasts and to

8 forecast things that happened. I'm not here to discuss what would have

9 happened if this and that had happened. My duty here is to speak about

10 the facts that I saw and know. I'm not here to venture into forecasts.

11 Q. Witness H, my questions are very clear, have been so from the very

12 beginning. I never asked you to make any forecasts, nor to make any

13 conclusions. But your testimony is in the transcript; therefore, it will

14 speak for itself.

15 Do you know somebody called Alica Pobric?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You said that on three occasions you were taken from your

18 apartment by HVO members. Did these HVO members have white belts?

19 A. No.

20 Q. At the mechanical engineering faculty was the command of the HVO

21 military police, wasn't it?

22 A. I was brought to the mechanical engineering faculty and I left a

23 computer there, and then it was put in the cellar part of that area, which

24 was very dark, very dark.

25 Q. That is not what I asked you. Please listen to my questions and

Page 1369

1 be so kind, once again. The building of the mechanical engineering

2 faculty housed the command of the HVO military police. Your answer can be

3 "yes," "no," "I don't know." So, please.

4 A. I don't know.

5 Q. Well, you see, I didn't ask you where you were, so please be so

6 kind, and when I ask you very precise, brief, and specific questions.

7 Yesterday you said that in front of the Vranica building soldiers wore

8 grey/olive-green uniforms.

9 A. Excuse me. Camouflage, camouflage uniforms. Olive-green/grey is

10 the uniform of the former Yugoslav People's Army. The camouflage

11 uniform --

12 Q. Witness H, the transcript -- yesterday's transcript says - and I

13 can show it to you - you said the olive-green/grey uniform, and that is

14 the kind of uniforms that HVO members and, as you say, HV members also

15 had. Today you say it's a camouflage uniform.

16 A. I always said camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Right. Right. And it is only by the patch on the sleeve that you

18 recognised the membership and unit?

19 A. The patch and the insignia not of the unit but members of the

20 Croat Defence Council and the Croatian army.

21 Q. Thank you for that answer. And only due to the fact that you saw

22 Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Lang [Realtime transcript omitted the name "Lang"]

23 talking, and from that conversation you draw the conclusion that my client

24 is accountable to somebody in Zagreb?

25 A. I did not come to that conclusion. I saw the gentlemen and said

Page 1370

1 what I saw, what I had seen.

2 Q. Thank you very much. Are you still a member of the SDA to this

3 day?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Are you a member of some other party?

6 A. That is my business. It is up to me whether I want to be a member

7 of some other party or not. That is my democratic right.

8 Q. I agree with you that it is a democratic right, and it is up to

9 every man who he will vote for.

10 MR. BOS: Sorry to interrupt, but just for a correction on the

11 transcript. Page 19, line 13, the man, Mr. Lang, the name didn't appear

12 on the transcript, and I'd like the transcript to reflect that it was

13 Mr. Lang, L-a-n-g.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Prosecutor.

15 Mr. Krsnik, if I may draw your attention to your line of

16 questioning. If you want to go back into private session for a few

17 minutes, perhaps it will make matters easier. If not, please proceed,

18 then.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy, for your

20 help. I do not think I will ask for a private session again unless the

21 witness, in response to my questions, the witness does not take a detour

22 into some subjects about which of course I am not asking him at all.

23 Q. How far were you from the place where the above-mentioned

24 gentlemen talked?

25 A. Seven to ten metres.

Page 1371

1 Q. Were they in the same room as you or outside it?

2 A. Outside it.

3 Q. Was there an obstacle between these two rooms: a door, a window,

4 parapets - I don't know - screens?

5 A. There was a glass wall, a glass partition.

6 Q. Could you hear what they were talking about?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The decision whereby the defence of the city of Mostar was

9 entrusted to the HVO, was it ever invalidated to this day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us when?

12 A. I wouldn't know the exact date.

13 Q. What about the year?

14 A. 1992 -- excuse me. 1993.

15 Q. Was it the beginning, the middle, or the end of the year?

16 A. Beginning. End of April/early May.

17 Q. Do you know who Jasmin Jaganjac is?

18 A. I don't.

19 Q. And who pronounced this decision null and void, the decision that

20 we talked about? Who invalidated it?

21 A. It was the Crisis Staff of the army of the Republic of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I will cut my

25 cross-examination short, because I believe that I've covered everything.

Page 1372

1 The Defence has learned what we thought we should learn, especially this

2 last question. I thought it would take me more time to arrive at that

3 answer, but it wasn't the case, so I thank you. I have no further

4 questions of this witness.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.

6 Mr. Seric, do you have any questions for the witness?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I do, of course.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

9 Q. [Interpretation] My name is Branko Seric and I am the lawyer from

10 Zagreb, counsel for Vinko Martinovic.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

12 microphone.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness H.

15 A. Good morning to you.

16 Q. How are you, Witness H?

17 A. Fine. How are you?

18 Q. Are you hungry?

19 A. No, thank God.

20 Q. Very good. Then we can proceed.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel please come closer to the

22 microphone or move the microphone.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. You said you were no longer a member -- you said that you were not

25 a member of the SDA any more. Did you leave that party of your own?

Page 1373

1 A. True.

2 Q. When?

3 A. After the war.

4 Q. Witness H, when?

5 A. After the war.

6 Q. But will you give us the year?

7 A. The year 2000.

8 Q. And in the party that you're in now, does it bring together

9 Muslims predominantly?

10 A. My present party has an equal number of Serbs, Croats, and

11 Muslims.

12 Q. Is that the party of the ex-Communists?

13 A. I wouldn't know.

14 Q. When we go back to 1992, at the time when you were a member of the

15 SDA, did you at that time hear of the idea HOS, H-O-S?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. What did that mean?

18 A. The Croat Armed Forces.

19 Q. And who made those forces, if you know?

20 A. I do not.

21 Q. Were there Muslims in the HOS?

22 A. I wouldn't know.

23 Q. On the 8th of May, 1993, on what bank of the river were you? In

24 which part of the town of Mostar?

25 A. On the western bank.

Page 1374

1 Q. Do you know what was going on on that day in the eastern part of

2 the town?

3 A. I wasn't there, so I don't know.

4 Q. How is that possible, since you stated that in 1992, you were not

5 in the western part of Mostar but you were familiar with the events there?

6 A. I'm sorry, on the 8th of May, 1993, I was on the western bank, in

7 the Vranica building.

8 Q. How is it possible that you were not familiar with what was going

9 on in the eastern part of the town in 1993, whereas you stated that you

10 were familiar with the situation in the western Mostar in 1992 when you

11 were actually residing in the eastern part of the town?

12 A. I apologise, but I really don't understand your question.

13 Q. Thank you. That's enough. Do you know that on the 8th of May

14 1993, in the eastern part of Mostar, that there were armed forces of the

15 BH army in that part of town at that period of time?

16 A. On the 8th of May 1993, I was not on the eastern bank so I don't

17 know.

18 Q. Witness H, do you know whether on the 8th of May 1993, in the

19 eastern part of Mostar, there were any units of the BH army?

20 A. No, I don't know.

21 Q. Thank you. That is an answer. We will be able to move faster if

22 you just confine your answers to "yes," "no," or "I don't know."

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Fourmy, for this

24 intervention but I think it was a logical one.

25 Q. When you were arrested, who was it that arrested you? Do you know

Page 1375

1 exactly which unit was it?

2 A. Members of the Croatian Defence Council and the Croatian army.

3 Q. Again, you haven't answered my question. Do you know which unit

4 that was?

5 A. I really don't know which unit it was.

6 Q. Thank you. You can tell me that right away. I don't see any

7 problem. Mr. H, tell us if there is any problem with my questions.

8 A. I have no problems whatsoever, but I should like you to be more

9 precise in your questions.

10 Q. Are you joking or are you being serious?

11 A. I'm just asking you to rephrase your questions in a more -- in a

12 clearer manner. I really am not quite clear as to what you mean with your

13 questions.

14 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the Heliodrom?

15 A. I only saw one man.

16 Q. Could you tell me yes or no, you know it or you don't?

17 A. No, I don't know it.

18 Q. Well, let's move on. Do you know who had authority over

19 prisoners?

20 A. No, I don't.

21 Q. Do you know who assigned people to labour units, labour platoons?

22 A. No, I don't know that.

23 Q. You testified that you were at the gymnasium with Nenad

24 Haramandzic. Did you talk to him personally?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 1376

1 Q. Did he tell you about the possibility of escape, escape from

2 detention?

3 A. I don't know. I don't remember.

4 Q. You said that on the 12th, the 13th and the 14th of May, soldiers

5 took Haramandzic out on several occasions. Do you know who those soldiers

6 were?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Were they members of the military police?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. You stated that Nenad Haramandzic was frequently beaten. Did you

11 see his injuries?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Could you please describe them for us?

14 A. In the morning, that is in daylight, he had serious injuries on

15 his back, on his chest, and those injuries were very visible indeed.

16 Q. You said that he moaned and cried for help. Do you think that his

17 life was in danger during that beating?

18 A. When you see this kind of injuries, I think that everyone's life

19 is in danger.

20 Q. I'm asking you about the life of Nenad Haramandzic.

21 A. Well, in view of his injuries, I believe it was, yes.

22 Q. Thank you. Do you know the name and the surname of the detainee

23 whose nickname is Lopata?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Would you please tell it.

Page 1377

1 A. No, I'm sorry, I apologise, I don't know the name and the

2 surname. I only know the nickname, Lopata.

3 Q. You said that on one occasion, the record says only once, so, that

4 you were taken away on only one occasion to perform labour near the house

5 of Ico Voljevica?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Could you tell us how far that house is from the medical centre?

8 A. Between 30 and 50 metres.

9 Q. In which part of the Mostar town, in what direction?

10 A. The health centre is in the northern part of the town, and the

11 house of Ico Voljevica is southward from that medical centre.

12 Q. Was the street between the medical centre and that particular

13 house?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, at this point I should

16 like to ask the assistance of the usher, please. I think we already have

17 Exhibit 14.5 in the record, so I should like this exhibit to be shown to

18 the witness so that he can show us the house with the pointer. Exhibit

19 14.5, please.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, if we can perhaps have the

21 photograph on the ELMO and the witness can show us with the pointer which

22 house he had in mind.

23 Mr. Seric, please continue.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you for your assistance,

25 Mr. Fourmy.

Page 1378

1 Q. Witness H, you have a photograph in front of you. Do you

2 recognize the area?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Would you please use the pointer and show us the house of Ico

5 Voljevica.

6 A. It is towards the south.

7 Q. So it is not on this photograph?

8 A. No, it isn't.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I have finished with the exhibit. I have

10 got my answer. You stated, Witness H, that you knew the brother of Nenad

11 Haramandzic, Majo, very well. Did you subsequently, after you heard that

12 Nenad Haramandzic had been killed, see Majo Haramandzic again?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Did you ever hear later on whether the corpse of Nenad Haramandzic

15 was ever found or not?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. Are you familiar with the unit which was under the command of

18 Vinko Martinovic?

19 A. No, I'm not.

20 Q. Do you know which line it held, which line it was manning?

21 A. No, I don't know.

22 Q. I have only two questions left and I'll probably finish. You

23 stated that you had drafted a false report on the situation at the

24 Heliodrom.

25 A. Correct.

Page 1379












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Page 1380

1 Q. Is it possible that you're now testifying according to the wishes

2 of your party?

3 A. I am sorry, which party do you have in mind?

4 Q. The one you're a member of.

5 A. I have by no means come here with any instructions from my party.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have finished

7 my examination, Mr. Fourmy.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Seric.

9 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions for the

10 witness?

11 MR. BOS: No. We have no additional questions for the witness.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Witness H, your ordeal, if I may call it that way, has come to an

14 end. Thank you very much for having come here, for providing us with the

15 information which will, by all means, benefit the judges. Let me wish you

16 a safe journey back to your place of residence. Thank you once again, and

17 goodbye.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, we should perhaps

20 start with our next witness. I don't know who will be examining the

21 witness, Mr. Scott or Mr. Stringer. Mr. Stringer?

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, it will be Mr. Stringer, and you're

23 correct, we are ready to proceed.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Stringer, if you

Page 1381

1 would be kind enough and take your -- take up your position behind the

2 microphone. Mr. Stringer, good morning. I think that we will be in a

3 closed session for our next witness; am I correct?

4 MR. STRINGER: Good morning, Mr. Fourmy, and good morning to

5 counsel. In fact, Mr. Fourmy, when I met with this witness over the

6 weekend, he informed me that he did not require closed session. I think

7 there may have been some confusion previously about what closed session

8 means versus other protective measures that are available, and the witness

9 has indicated to me that he's quite satisfied to testify with the

10 pseudonym and with facial distortion, but that closed session is not

11 necessary. It was my understanding that, at the very least, counsel were

12 informed of this modification. I think that you were informed about it

13 yesterday, possibly by Mr. Scott. So, yes, for this witness, pseudonym

14 and facial distortion but closed session is not necessary.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stringer.

16 Mr. Usher, would you please go and fetch the witness.

17 Madam Registrar, could you tell us --

18 THE REGISTRAR: The next pseudonym for this witness is I.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, do you need a private

20 session for the beginning of your examination-in-chief?

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I do not. However, I will request a

22 private session for probably the last two questions of the direct

23 examination, but I think that we can remain in open session until the very

24 end of the direct.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you,

Page 1382

1 Mr. Prosecutor. You have about 15 minutes, a bit less than that, before

2 the break.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you hear me?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I am in front of you. Very well.

7 Witness, thank you for coming here to give a deposition in this case. We

8 should like to tell you, first of all, that you have been granted a

9 certain number of protective measures. First of all, the image of your

10 face on the screen will be distorted so people watching this will not be

11 able to recognise you; and second, we will give you a pseudonym. We will

12 be referring to you as Witness I. Everybody will call you Witness I in

13 this courtroom. Please do not get offended. It is simply a measure that

14 we have undertaken in respect of your protection.

15 Before we proceed with your examination, you will be shown a piece

16 of document by the usher, and I will kindly ask you to read out the solemn

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

19 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. You may now be

23 seated. Make yourself as comfortable as possible. Yes, that's perhaps a

24 good idea. Do come closer to the microphone.

25 Mr. Usher is now going to show you a piece of paper which in

Page 1383

1 principle should contain your name. Have a look at that piece of paper

2 but do not pronounce it aloud and simply tell us, or rather, confirm

3 whether this paper indeed contains your name and surname.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my name.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. So, first of all, you

6 will be asked certain questions by the counsel for the Prosecution, and

7 then after that, it will be the turn of the Defence to ask questions of

8 you. You will be examined in this first part for about 10 or 12 minutes.

9 Then after that, we will have a break. And after the break, we will

10 continue with your deposition.

11 Is it okay? You don't have any questions?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't have any problems.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 Mr. Prosecutor, your witness for examination-in-chief.

15 Mr. Usher, I think we can now pull up the blinds.

16 Mr. Prosecutor?

17 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

18 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

19 Q. Witness I, good morning.

20 A. Good morning.

21 Q. I want to ask you just a couple of brief questions about your

22 background and your circumstances in 1992 and 1993. First of all, may I

23 ask: In 1992 and before the summer of 1993, were you a Bosnian Muslim who

24 lived in the municipality, the area of Capljina, in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. Yes, that is correct, in the area of the Capljina municipality in

Page 1384

1 the village of Jasenice.

2 Q. And in 1992, did you become a member of the HVO?

3 A. Not at the very beginning. I joined the Territorial Defence of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 Q. And then subsequently, did you become a member of the HVO?

6 A. Yes, after that, after the TO ceased to exist. So a month after

7 that, a month and a half, I became a member of the HVO.

8 Q. And in July, then, of 1993, were you a member of the HVO and were

9 you participating in the defence of the Serb front line at a place called

10 Rotimlja?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I want to ask you if you could tell us briefly what happened

13 to you and other members of your HVO unit on the 4th of July, 1993.

14 A. On the 4th of July, 1993, we were arrested by the members of the

15 HVO and we were taken to the Dretelj camp from the front line.

16 Q. Let me just ask you a couple of questions about the circumstances

17 of your arrest. First of all, when you and other Muslim members of your

18 unit arrived at this front line position, were you issued your weapons,

19 which was, I understand, the normal procedure?

20 A. No, we were not issued any weapons at that time when we got to the

21 front line.

22 Q. And can you give us roughly an idea how many Muslims, then, were

23 arrested and taken down to Dretelj on that day?

24 A. Some 20 Muslims were arrested on that location.

25 Q. Now, it's my understanding that before actually going to Dretelj,

Page 1385

1 you and the others were taken to and stayed for a short period of time at

2 a different place called Gabela; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is, but we didn't stay there. We just turned around and

4 went back to Dretelj.

5 Q. So then did you arrive at Dretelj on the 4th of July, the same day

6 that you were arrested?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At the time you arrived at Dretelj, were you still wearing your

9 HVO uniforms?

10 A. Yes, we were.

11 Q. Did you keep those uniforms after you arrived at Dretelj?

12 A. No. We had to take off our uniforms. Actually, they took them

13 off, and they gave us Serb uniforms, that is, the uniforms of the former

14 Yugoslavia, to put on.

15 Q. Are these the purple-coloured uniform of the former JNA?

16 A. No. They were olive-grey.

17 Q. Now, how long did you and the others remain at Dretelj after your

18 arrival on the 4th of July?

19 A. We remained there from the 4th of July up until the 21st.

20 Q. Were any prisoners mistreated at Dretelj during the time that you

21 were there?

22 A. Yes, they were. During those days, from the 4th until the 21st of

23 July, the situation was terrible. The mistreatment was terrible.

24 Q. Can you tell us briefly what sort of mistreatment occurred there.

25 And I want -- perhaps you could address issues such as food, water,

Page 1386

1 freedom to move around, if there were any beatings. Could you tell us

2 about that briefly.

3 A. From the 13th of July on, we were not given water for three days,

4 so many people fainted. They were losing too much liquid. And the food

5 was such that you simply couldn't get a bite or two. People lost a lot of

6 weight very fast and they were exhausted.

7 Q. Do you have any idea how many prisoners were being held at Dretelj

8 during the time that you were there?

9 A. In the hangar where I was were between 300 and 350 people, and it

10 was a rather small hangar. The conditions were impossible there.

11 Everything we did, we did inside the hangar. They didn't even let us go

12 out to the toilet.

13 Q. Were all of the prisoners at Dretelj Muslim men of military age,

14 such as yourself, or were there other kinds of prisoners there as well?

15 A. No. In my hangar there were even some elderly men who were not

16 under any military obligation. One of them was Jazvin Selim, who is now

17 83 years old.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, with the assistance of the usher, I'd

19 like the witness to be shown a photograph. This is Exhibit number 21.6.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

21 MR. STRINGER: On the ELMO, please. And I'm going to ask the

22 witness to circle one of the buildings that's shown on the photograph. I

23 don't know if there's a Magic Marker or some sort of pen that's available

24 to him there.

25 Q. Witness I, are you able to recognise these buildings that are

Page 1387

1 shown in this photograph which is marked as Exhibit 21.6?

2 A. Yes. Yes, I am. I do recognise all of these buildings here.

3 Q. Do you see the hangar which you've just described, the place where

4 you stayed during the period of 4 July to 21 July 1993?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Could I ask you to place a circle around that building or that

7 hangar with the pen.

8 A. On this photograph here?

9 Q. Yes, please.

10 A. [Marks]

11 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. The photograph can be withdrawn now.

12 Mr. Fourmy, I think with just two or three questions, I can bring

13 us up to a good starting point that will leave us well positioned for the

14 next proceedings or the next --

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

17 Q. Witness I, then on the 21st of July, were you and other prisoners

18 taken from Dretelj to another place?

19 A. Yes, we were. It was on the 21st of July that we were taken in

20 five trucks to the Heliodrom camp.

21 Q. The Heliodrom is a place that's located north of your position,

22 closer to the city of Mostar; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, again I'd ask that the witness be shown

25 a different photograph now, which is marked as Exhibit 20.8.

Page 1388

1 Q. While that's happening, Witness I, let me ask you: You say you

2 arrived at the Heliodrom on the 21st of July. How long did you remain at

3 the Heliodrom until you were eventually released or exchanged?

4 A. I stayed at the Heliodrom from the 21st of July until the 1st of

5 December.

6 Q. That's the 1st of December, 1993?

7 A. Yes, 1993.

8 Q. And during those months at the Heliodrom, were you taken out of

9 the Heliodrom to perform forced labour?

10 A. Yes. I was taken out to perform forced labour almost every day.

11 Q. Now, a photograph has been placed nearby you on the ELMO. Looking

12 at that photograph, are you able to identify the building or the buildings

13 where you were kept in at the Heliodrom during those months in 1993?

14 A. Yes, I can recognise the buildings.

15 Q. Perhaps with the pointer you could assist us and point to the

16 buildings which you're talking about.

17 A. These are two halls which make up one building. This is the

18 school and these are the remaining buildings right across from the

19 school. The entrance was from this side here. I mean, the gate was on

20 this side here.

21 Q. Okay. We'll talk about this a little later in your examination.

22 It's my understanding that for some of the time at the Heliodrom, you were

23 kept in the school and that during another part of your time at the

24 Heliodrom you were kept in a different building; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1389

1 Q. Can you circle the two buildings which you were kept in, then the

2 school, and then also the other building, if you see those on this

3 photograph.

4 A. I was here in the school, and in this hall here.

5 Q. Can I ask you to take the marker, please, and to circle those two

6 buildings for us.

7 A. [Marks]

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Witness I.

9 Mr. Fourmy, I believe this is a good time for a break, if I may

10 suggest.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Stringer, you're quite right. I

12 suggest that we break until 10 past 11.00.

13 Witness I, please do not move for a moment. Remain seated until

14 we have pulled down the blinds, so that you can leave the courtroom in

15 full protection.

16 The hearing is adjourned.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

19 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] The session is resumed. You may be

20 seated.

21 Usher, will you please bring in the witness.

22 Mr. Prosecutor, how long do you think it will take you to take the

23 witness through your examination-in-chief?

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I hope to conclude by noon.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1390

1 Witness, you may be seated. Are you all right? If you are

2 comfortable, the Prosecutor will now continue with your direct

3 examination.

4 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

5 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

6 Q. Witness I, at the break, we had just finished talking generally

7 about the period of time which you spent as a prisoner at the Heliodrom;

8 do you recall that?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. And I think you said that during that period of time at the

11 Heliodrom, you were very often taken out of the Heliodrom to perform

12 forced labour.

13 A. That's right.

14 MR. STRINGER: By the way, Mr. Fourmy, I think that we've finished

15 with the last photograph, the Heliodrom photograph, so that can be

16 withdrawn. We are going to move on to the next topic.

17 Q. After your arrival at the Heliodrom, is there one area or place in

18 particular when -- where you were taken to work regularly?

19 A. Yes. I worked mostly at Rodoc, and there was a man called Darko

20 [as interpreted] who took us there.

21 Q. I want to direct your attention, if I could, to the 17th of

22 September 1993. Do you recall that day?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. On that day, were you taken to the same location to work near

25 Rodoc?

Page 1391

1 A. No. That day, we were not taken to that location.

2 Q. Could you tell us, please, where you were taken on that day and

3 who took you there, if you know.

4 A. That morning, around 6.00, it was earlier than usual, Dinko came

5 to take us along. We all knew that he was a man who drove a lorry for

6 Stela. He broke into the gym where we were put up. Then he began to

7 point with his finger at men, telling them to come out and board the

8 lorry. As there were inmates who regularly worked for Stela, they asked

9 if they were to go.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. And he said that, no, not that morning.

12 Q. Let me ask you just a couple of questions about that. You said

13 that there were inmates who worked regularly for Stela. Had you seen

14 these other inmates taken out previously to the 17th of September?

15 A. Yes. And we talked about where they worked. He usually took

16 people who were mechanics and men who, on his behalf, took things out of

17 apartments.

18 Q. And then had you seen this person Dinko take those prisoners out

19 of the Heliodrom previously, previous to the 17th of September?

20 A. Yes. Frequently, because we, the inmates, knew which lorry went

21 where and who drove each one of those lorries.

22 Q. So on the 17th of September, this person Dinko is a person you'd

23 already associated with Stela?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now on this particular day, when Dinko chose you instead of the

Page 1392

1 others, how many other prisoners were selected to go with him?

2 A. He took out about 30 of us.

3 Q. Where did he take you?

4 A. He took us into the town. I heard from other inmates that that

5 place was called his workshop. And for me, it was the first time that I

6 went to work for him. Some from that group had worked for him several

7 times already, so that they knew him.

8 Q. Now, before the time, as someone who came from Capljina, were you

9 familiar with the city of Mostar or not?

10 A. No. I didn't know it very well, especially that part of Mostar,

11 because I had passed through the east side several times, usually going to

12 the railway station or from, things having to do with the railway. So I

13 really had very poor knowledge of Mostar.

14 Q. Now, when you and the others then arrived at this place you've

15 called the workshop, who did you see? Were you met by anyone there at

16 this place?

17 A. Well, yes. There were HVO soldiers and other inmates whom we

18 found there already. There were more inmates who were already there when

19 we arrived.

20 Q. Were any -- did anyone in particular among the HVO soldiers appear

21 to be in charge or in command?

22 A. Yes. We were met there by Ernest Takac, who took us over straight

23 away and made us sit on a low wall near -- next to a garage, next to a

24 small garage, and told to us wait there.

25 Q. Was there any particular characteristic about this Takac which you

Page 1393












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Page 1394

1 can recall?

2 A. Yes: He had a big beard; he was tall and dark.

3 Q. Was he called -- did he have a nickname? Was he called anything

4 other than Takac by the others?

5 A. Well, we used to refer to him as Brada, beard, because he had this

6 big beard. I don't know of any other nickname.

7 Q. Had you ever heard of this person Takac before actually meeting

8 him on the 17th of September?

9 A. One of the inmates, Aziz Colakovic that is, told me that that was

10 his name because Aziz Colakovic had already worked for them on several

11 occasions.

12 Q. And was this Aziz Colakovic present with you on that morning of

13 the 17th of September?

14 A. Yes. We were together there.

15 Q. All right. Now, after you arrived at this location, was a smaller

16 number of prisoners selected and taken out from your group?

17 A. Why, yes. They took out four men and gave them to put on

18 many-coloured clothes. Then after they had taken those four men out and

19 given them those clothes, one of them passed out.

20 Q. Now, let me ask you about these -- the clothing that they were

21 given. Was it a particular type of clothing? Tell us what is the

22 clothing that they were given.

23 A. Yes. It was camouflage clothes with HVO patches.

24 Q. And did you know any of the prisoners who were then given these

25 HVO uniforms?

Page 1395

1 A. Of those four, I knew two. One of them was Jasminko Jazvin and

2 the other one, Edin Tucakovic.

3 Q. And then these four prisoners, did you see that they were taken to

4 a different place while you and the others were still standing outside?

5 A. Well, when one of those passed out, the atmosphere changed and

6 people -- there was a lot of teasing and provocation, and then they told

7 them to change in the cellar of the building, in the part of the building

8 facing us.

9 Q. From your position outside, were you able to see these prisoners

10 changing into the uniforms while they were in the basement?

11 A. Yes, I could do it, because there was this opening on the side,

12 and I saw Jasminko Jazvin, who smiled at me.

13 Q. Then you and the other prisoners who were outside, were there any

14 instructions that you were given?

15 A. Yes. We were instructed to board a van which was waiting nearby,

16 and then they took us, those four, and gave them wooden rifles, which

17 looked like real rifles, with proper ammunition belts. I saw that all as

18 I was walking towards this van, according to instructions. Thirteen of us

19 boarded that van.

20 Q. And was this Brada, or Takac, present while the prisoners were

21 being given this wooden rifles?

22 A. Well, yes, but at that moment we were in a hurry to get into that

23 van, so that I merely glimpsed it in passing.

24 Q. Those four prisoners who you've described as receiving the wooden

25 rifles, did you see them again on that day?

Page 1396

1 A. No, I did not see them again.

2 Q. Let me ask you this at this point also, Witness I: Vinko

3 Martinovic, also known as Stela, did you see this person Martinovic at all

4 on the 17th?

5 A. No, I did not see that man on the 17th.

6 Q. Now, when you and the others got on this van, can you tell us

7 where you were taken?

8 A. Well, all I remember is that we drove through an alley. As I

9 didn't know that part of the town, I had no idea where we were.

10 Q. Did this Takac, Brada, did he accompany you and the others on the

11 van?

12 A. Yes. He was in the van with us, and there was a driver too.

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I have two photographs which I would

14 like to show the witness at this time. We're going to work with them on

15 the ELMO. They have been previously marked as Exhibits 14.3 and 14.5.

16 However, we have modified those to add numbers so that these will actually

17 become new exhibits, which have already been provided to Defence counsel

18 and I think have also been provided to the registrar.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Just to make a clarification, the Exhibit 14.5, we

20 already have a "/1." We have a 14.5, a 14.5/1, and this will be 14.5/2.

21 And the first exhibit that you've mentioned, I believe it's 14.3, this is

22 the first time, actually, that you're tendering it. So I know it's new.

23 You can -- I just replaced the new one with the old one you had given the

24 registrar. Okay?

25 MR. STRINGER: Yes. I think, Mr. Fourmy, if I could suggest, just

Page 1397

1 to keep all of the originals originals, so that we have one clean one in

2 all of the sets. My proposal would be, first of all, for the Prosecutor

3 to tender the clean 14.3 and then to mark this one which the witness will

4 testify about as 14.3/1.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That's agreeable.

6 MR. STRINGER: If the witness could just be handed those

7 photographs, he can look them over, and I've got a couple of questions

8 about the photographs before we put them on the ELMO.

9 If you could just show them to the witness. Thank you.

10 Q. Now, Witness I, I want to ask you: Over the weekend, did you and

11 I meet in order to help you prepare your testimony today?

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 Q. Did you meet with me previously before testifying today?

14 A. Well, yes, during the interview.

15 Q. Right. And during the interview, did I show you these

16 photographs, and then based on our discussion, were these numbers placed

17 on the photographs that you see?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do the numbers 1 through 5 or 1 through 3, do those numbers

20 correspond to particular places that you're going to testify about

21 concerning the events of 17 September?

22 A. They do.

23 Q. And finally, do the numbers on those two photographs correspond to

24 each other? That is to say, does the location marked as number 1 on

25 Exhibit 14.3/1, does that correspond to the same location that's marked as

Page 1398

1 location number 1 on the other photograph, which is Exhibit 14.5/2?

2 A. It does.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness I --

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me just a moment, Prosecutor.

5 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, my learned friend, that I

7 have to interrupt you.

8 Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. All I wanted was to establish, since the

9 Prosecutor is not under oath but the witness is, and what he told

10 us -- what my learned friend Mr. Stringer said, I mean, when he said that,

11 he wasn't under oath, and he is not under oath that he will speak the

12 truth, and when the witness also spoke about this was not under oath at

13 that time. I'm afraid that any question about these photographs is

14 leading. So I'd rather that we deal with these photographs as if there

15 were no numbers, because the witness has to speak for himself and answer

16 non-leading questions of the Prosecutor.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, that's not the way how I

18 understood. I don't think that Mr. Stringer wanted to testify instead of

19 the witness. Mr. Stringer just wished to tell us about the conditions in

20 which these exhibits were marked, and then, of course, it will be the

21 witness's task to give us more details and to tell us whether indeed that

22 was the location that he marked and what the location stood for. As far

23 as that segment of your objection is concerned, you're quite right, but

24 this type of proceedings, this method, I think, is designed to save us

25 some time.

Page 1399

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Fourmy. I think that there

2 has been a misunderstanding, then. My objection was quite clear, and it

3 is in conformity with the principles of the common-law system.

4 Preparations for depositions are one thing, depositions are the second

5 thing, and then the third thing, of course, is the trial, which is

6 conducted before the Trial Chamber. During the deposition procedure and

7 at trial, the witness is testifying, but when the Prosecution witness,

8 during the examination-in-chief -- when the witness is testifying as a

9 Prosecution witness during the examination-in-chief, he's supposed to

10 testify on his own, without being led by leading questions.

11 This diagram with numbers has been prepared in advance. My

12 learned colleague should have done this before us here in the courtroom

13 and the document should not have been prepared in advance. We have the

14 witness here and now he knows what he's going to testify about. That was

15 the essence of my objection, which I wanted to be entered in the record.

16 Preliminary statements are one thing and the testimonies are another

17 thing. This diagram, Mr. Fourmy, is a preliminary document. It's part of

18 the preliminary statement. And the witness has just confirmed that he

19 stated this as part of his preliminary statement, that is, during the

20 preparatory phase, and the defence objects for this way of examining this

21 witness. We object to this line of questioning. Furthermore, I don't

22 think that we can question the witness any longer on these issues - thank

23 you - that under these circumstances, we can continue with this

24 examination.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Your position seems to be quite

Page 1400

1 radical, Mr. Krsnik.

2 Mr. Stringer, let us hear you.

3 MR. STRINGER: Well, I don't think I could disagree any more

4 strongly with anything that counsel has just said. I intend to fully

5 question this witness with respect to these exhibits. His objections are

6 noted. He can make whatever arguments he chooses in terms of the weight

7 that the Trial Chamber may ultimately wish to give this testimony or these

8 exhibits, but this is -- first of all, as someone who has practised in a

9 common-law system, this is perfectly acceptable. This is preferred in

10 order to make the proceedings more efficient and to make the record

11 crystal clear about the particular places which the witness is going to

12 talk about. That's the common law point of view.

13 And certainly, within the practice of the Tribunal, I firmly,

14 firmly -- and I'm very confident that this is a very widely accepted

15 practice here in the Tribunal, and I know it because I participated

16 personally in testimonies and in witness preparation which is just like

17 this. So I propose, Mr. Fourmy, to proceed. I think the record will show

18 the extent to which the witness is speaking from his own personal

19 knowledge without any leading about any of this. The record will reflect

20 what it reflects. Mr. Krsnik can make all arguments he chooses about the

21 weight of the evidence, but I'm ready to proceed, and I really see no

22 point in arguing about such technicalities any further.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, you are on your feet

24 again.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Fourmy. I want to have the

Page 1401

1 floor, if you will be kind enough to give it to me. Thank you.

2 Likewise, I strongly disagree with the arguments that have just

3 been given by my learned colleague, Mr. Stringer. Though we do not come

4 from the common-law system and we are by no means such experts as

5 Mr. Stringer, we do have some experience, and some practice. Otherwise, I

6 wouldn't even dare to be on my feet and object to the way my learned

7 colleagues proceed. It would not be serious on my behalf to act that

8 way. Otherwise, we could only have counsel coming from that particular

9 legal system. And as you know, the reality is somewhat different.

10 The case law and the practice of this Tribunal are one thing, and

11 the way we understand the common law is something else. The numbers here

12 that we are about to see, if we are going to see it, should have been

13 marked by the witness as part of his live testimony. If the purpose was

14 to save time, then I think that that purpose is defeated because we cannot

15 -- the final objective here is not to save time but to ascertain the

16 truth and to achieve justice, and that is why the witness was supposed to

17 mark this exhibit in front of us, and we should not have engaged in this

18 debate as to how his testimony should be as regards these photographs, the

19 houses and the numbers on the photograph. The Prosecutor should have

20 achieved this during the direct examination in front of all of us.

21 My objection has been entered into the record, Mr. Fourmy. You

22 will make a ruling and I intend to abide by it, of course.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par?

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, with your indulgence, I

25 should like to clarify our position concerning this issue.

Page 1402

1 I am familiar with the practice of this Tribunal, and I know that

2 so far, exhibits have been marked in this manner with the purpose of

3 facilitating the proceedings, as has been explained to us by

4 Mr. Stringer. It is furthermore true that, during the break, Mr. Stringer

5 provided us, the Defence team of Mr. Martinovic, with this marked

6 photograph. He explained to us what his line of questions would be, and

7 it is also true that we had no objections in that respect.

8 However, a new matter has arisen during the testimony of the

9 witness today which to a certain extent justifies the intervention of

10 Mr. Krsnik. I'm talking about the fact that the witness stated that he is

11 not familiar with the town of Mostar, that he doesn't know Mostar. In

12 view of that particular circumstance, we don't think that it is possible

13 for the witness to orient himself on this kind of photograph without some

14 leading questions, some leading assistance, from the Prosecutor and

15 certain instructions to that effect.

16 So in view of that, it is our submission, Mr. Fourmy, that if we

17 should proceed along the lines advocated by Mr. Krsnik, then in that case,

18 I don't think that the witness would be able to mark on his own the

19 buildings on the map, whereby his testimony would have to be conducted in

20 a completely different manner than the one that has been proposed today.

21 So that is, according to my opinion, a very important factor which

22 needs to be taken into account when deciding whether the examination

23 should continue with this type of photograph that has been previously

24 marked or not. I personally am in a difficult position vis-a-vis my

25 colleagues from the Prosecution because we have indeed agreed to this type

Page 1403

1 of questioning and we didn't make any objections to that. So it is

2 somewhat difficult for me to change my position.

3 However, bearing in mind what Mr. Krsnik has said, I think that we

4 can join him in his opposition, in his objection, simply because the

5 witness has explicitly stated that he was not familiar with the town of

6 Mostar and that he consequently, in our opinion, is not able to mark the

7 exhibit on his own.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I do

9 appreciate, Mr. Par, your sense of measure.

10 Mr. Stringer, you would like to have the floor again? Let us hear

11 you.

12 MR. STRINGER: Only to say I think that all of these questions go

13 to the weight and may be appropriate for cross-examination. I think that

14 the extent to which the witness is able to identify these places and the

15 manner in which he testifies about them are all going to be subject to

16 cross-examination. I'm grateful for the suggestions from all counsel as

17 to how I should or should not conduct my direct examination, but it is,

18 after all, my direct examination. This is how I propose to do it. I

19 think it's appropriate, and it's well grounded in the practice here at the

20 Tribunal, and all questions regarding the witness's ability to recognise,

21 his familiarity with Mostar, his familiarity with the positions and the

22 places indicated on the photographs, is all subject to cross-examination

23 and will be in the record so that the fact-finders can determine the

24 weight to give Witness I's testimony.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Krsnik?

Page 1404

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

2 Mr. Stringer, my dear colleague, I hope you have understood the

3 reasons for our intervention. They have nothing to do with our

4 possibility of revisiting the issue during the cross-examination.

5 With all due respect for you and for the cooperation that we have

6 with you, I merely wanted to point out, and of course, to object, and

7 strongly so, to the numbers indicated on the photograph compared to what

8 the witness has stated, that his testimony was actually prepared. And my

9 concerns were about the possibility of going outside the scope of this

10 examination, and I continue to object to this type of proceedings. Thank

11 you very much.

12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, counsel, both

13 for the Prosecution and the Defence, for the clarifications that we have

14 received on the issue. With your permission, I should like to mention two

15 or three things.

16 First of all - and, Mr. Krsnik, I'm sure you will agree with me on

17 this - if the common-law system procedure is dominant at the Tribunal, it

18 is by no means the procedure applied at the Tribunal. I do appreciate the

19 influence and contestable influence that it has on the proceedings here,

20 but at the same time I think it is important to emphasise that the

21 procedure applicable at this Tribunal is a sui generis procedure which has

22 to feed on all judicial systems in democratic countries in the world, and

23 to take what best they have to offer so that it can serve in the best

24 possible manner the international justice.

25 Under this very wide umbrella, there is a certain practice which

Page 1405

1 is -- has been applied at the Tribunal and I think that I can note that

2 the practice of the Tribunal justifies the position of Mr. Stringer, that

3 it gives him the reason. I have been here for about four years, I think,

4 and it is true that we have very often used pre-marked exhibits,

5 pre-numbered exhibits, in the proceedings, mainly with the purpose of

6 facilitating the testimony of witnesses who appear before the judges.

7 I'm not a judge, as you all know, and in view of the significance

8 of your objections, Mr. Krsnik and Mr. Par, all I can do is to try and

9 find a solution, together with your assistance.

10 I have two things in mind. For the time being, I am going only to

11 suggest one of them. There can be a solution, but I am fully aware of the

12 burden that it can create for the Prosecution and the delay that it can

13 cause for the proceedings, and that is not to show pre-numbered exhibits

14 to the witness and to use the photographs which are not marked in any way,

15 and to let the Prosecutor conduct the examination of the witness and to

16 have the witness indicate during the examination-in-chief names, places,

17 buildings, and all of the various pieces of information that the

18 Prosecutor wishes to elicit from the witness. I think that by proceeding

19 that way, we can at the same time retain the objections of the Defence,

20 which have, of course, been entered into the record, and to allow the

21 Prosecutor to make use of the presence of the witness, and of course to

22 use the knowledge that he or she has of such-and-such fact.

23 So that is one of the solutions that I had in mind. I don't know

24 if you wish to respond to this solution and who wishes to take the floor

25 first. I don't know whether this solution can somehow reconcile the

Page 1406

1 positions of the parties.

2 Witness I, my apologies for this delay. These are procedural

3 matters which are sometimes difficult to understand. They have nothing to

4 do with you. You are not a party to these proceedings, properly

5 speaking. It is part of the exchange that often happens between the

6 Defence and the Prosecution, and we are doing our best to find an

7 appropriate solution.

8 Mr. Stringer.

9 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I'm confident that the

10 witness can work with the photographs with or without the numbers, and so

11 I'd propose that we put two photographs in front of the witness which

12 don't bear the numbers. It's going to take longer. I know that's not a

13 concern of all the parties, but it will take longer. And I'm going to try

14 to have the witness mark all of the locations at the beginning so that we

15 then don't have to stop at each point along the way, but I'm certainly

16 willing to try to do this as an accommodation to the Defence.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

18 The Defence? Mr. Par, just for the record.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We agree.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, I saw you nod in

21 agreement also.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, of course. I hope that

23 you understood that my objection was an objection of a principle, but I

24 wanted to give the opportunity to my colleagues to express themselves,

25 because it concerns them. But I agree if they agree.

Page 1407












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1408

1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, I think that these

2 marked exhibits which you have just identified will be given back to you

3 by the usher. They will be withdrawn, so to speak.

4 Mr. Prosecutor, do you now wish to have Exhibit number 14.3 placed

5 on the ELMO or 14.5?

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, if I could ask -- let's start, if we

7 can, with Exhibit 14.5, and I'm going to -- my proposal is to mark on

8 14.5 -- I'm going to ask the witness to mark three different places that

9 will relate to his testimony and then I'm going to ask him to mark five

10 different places on Exhibit 14.3, so that all the marking is done, so that

11 it's finished, and then we can begin with his testimony about the events

12 which occurred in all of these places. That's how I'd like to proceed,

13 with your permission.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your

15 suggestion. Please continue.

16 MR. STRINGER: Could the usher please put on the ELMO the

17 photograph marked as Exhibit 14.5.

18 Q. Now, Witness I, can you see that photograph from where you're

19 seated?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you recognise this photograph? Is it a place where you've

22 been before?

23 A. Yes, I've been here before.

24 Q. Were you in this area on the 17th of September, 1993?

25 A. Yes, that's exactly where I was.

Page 1409

1 Q. Okay. Now, taking that photograph, I'm going to ask you to put

2 some numbers on it. First of all, I'm going to ask you to put a number

3 "1" by the place where you were brought on the van from the headquarters

4 of Vinko Martinovic. Can you find that spot on the photograph and put a

5 number "1" there.

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. It's hard for me to pick up that, which is precisely the reason

8 why this was done previously, may I add.

9 Witness I, let me ask you: There's a white building to the left

10 of the place that you've just made the marking. Can I ask you to put the

11 number "1" in the white building so that we can see it.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, later in your testimony I believe you're

14 going to talk about a different place, a different place where there were

15 sandbags, and I wonder if you could put a number "2" next to this place

16 you're going to talk about later where sandbags were located.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now, at another part of your testimony, I believe you're

19 going to testify about being instructed to remove sandbags that had been

20 positioned in front of some windows. Can you put a "3," a number "3," in

21 the area of the location of those sandbags that were in front of the

22 windows.

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

25 Now if the usher would put Exhibit 14.3 on the ELMO.

Page 1410

1 Q. Now, Witness I, this is a photograph which shows some of the same

2 places but from a different angle or from a different perspective. So if

3 you could orientate yourself well with this photograph, I'd like you, if

4 possible, to put a number "1" again at the place where you and others

5 stepped off the van after you were brought from the headquarters of Vinko

6 Martinovic. Can you put a number "1" on that place, if you see it on this

7 photograph.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, again, on the other photograph you put a number "2" next to a

10 place where there were some sandbags. Can you put a number "2" on this

11 photograph --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- on the same place.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Now, you also previously put a number "3" by the place where you

16 removed sandbags from some windows. Can you mark that same location with

17 a number "3" on this photograph, please.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, this photograph also contains a place that you're going to

20 testify about, a place where you were wounded on that day. Can I ask you

21 to put a number "4" in the location where you were wounded on the 17th of

22 September, 1993.

23 A. [Marks]

24 MR. STRINGER: For the record, from the video image I'm getting,

25 Mr. Fourmy, it's -- well, I guess I can see the place where the witness

Page 1411

1 has put the marking.

2 Q. And then finally, Witness I, you're going to testify about a place

3 that you call "the gymnasium," a place that you were taken after you were

4 wounded. Can you put a number "5" on the gymnasium, if you see it on this

5 photograph.

6 A. No, I was not taken to any sports hall but the gymnasium in the

7 sense of the grammar school, and that I can mark with number "5."

8 Q. Okay. Would you please put a number "5" there.

9 A. [Marks]

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, excuse me.

11 Perhaps, Madam Registrar, would you seek the confirmation of that

12 Exhibit 14.5 as marked by the witness will be a reference which will

13 presumably have the mark 14.5/2 and 14.3/2? Can you confirm us if that

14 will be the proper marking?

15 THE REGISTRAR: The proper marking is 14.5/2 but 14.3, with the

16 marks on the exhibit, is now 14.3/1.

17 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I think it should be /2.

18 THE REGISTRAR: No, this Exhibit 14.3 is a new exhibit being

19 tendered, so that would be the original, and then the marked version would

20 be 14.3/1.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I think Exhibit 14.3 has not previously

22 been tendered by any other witnesses -- through any other witnesses.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] As you like, but I think a moment

24 ago, we spoke about 14.3/1 for the exhibit pre-marked by the witness. It

25 is merely to avoid any confusion later on. So simply as a precaution,

Page 1412

1 14.3/2 should be properly marked, but of course I'm in the hands of the

2 registrar.

3 MR. STRINGER: May I suggest that we take it up during the next

4 break, Mr. Fourmy?

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

6 Mr. Par?

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] As we are on to these technical details,

8 could we, during the break, have these two maps photocopied, I mean marked

9 by the witness, and be given to the Defence so that we can prepare

10 better? Thank you.

11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, I believe, will do

12 her best.

13 Mr. Prosecutor, I believe you can now proceed with your

14 examination.

15 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

16 Q. Witness, now that we've got the photographs marked --

17 MR. STRINGER: May I suggest, Mr. Fourmy, that counsel, I think,

18 are able to work with the copies previously provided to them, the

19 pre-numbered ones. We do not differ in any material respect from those

20 which were just marked by the witness.

21 Q. Witness I, let's take you back to the 17th when you arrived from

22 the headquarters of Vinko Martinovic. We are going to work for a couple

23 of minutes with Exhibit 14.5/2. And again for the record, Witness I, can

24 you tell us, what's the number of the location where you arrived from the

25 headquarters of Vinko Martinovic?

Page 1413

1 A. Number 1.

2 Q. And can you describe what you saw in this location upon your

3 arrival.

4 A. At that location, when I arrived there, the whole street was

5 barricaded with sandbags. I also saw soldiers, well armed and in

6 bulletproof jackets, who were gathering together at that same place.

7 Q. Now, after you got off the van, where did you and the other

8 prisoners go? Where did you position yourselves?

9 A. As we got off the van, Ernest told us to stand next to the side of

10 the building. On this photograph, it is the building to the right, right

11 next to the wall of the building. I can show it to you if you want me.

12 Q. It's the building to the right of the number 1 which you have

13 placed on the photograph?

14 A. That's right. The smaller building.

15 Q. Now, after Brada had you go to this location along the wall, did

16 he give you any instructions as to what your task would be that particular

17 day?

18 A. Yes. There were 13 of us, and he told us to stand next to the

19 wall, and then he gave us instructions as to what we were to do there. He

20 said, well, when a tank comes, to scatter those sandbags as quickly as

21 possible, and he told us not to move away from the wall. And then he

22 counted us and said that we were 13, that was a lucky number, and said

23 something like, "Well, you're 13 so might -- one just might survive."

24 Q. Now, the word that was given to me in English was that you

25 scattered or you were to scatter the sandbags. Can you describe more

Page 1414

1 precisely what you were to do with those sandbags and how they related to

2 the tank that you just mentioned.

3 A. The tank was coming towards the building 1, as I marked it, and

4 the sandbags were there from the corner of one building to the other,

5 across the street. And we were, as when the tank came the 30 or 50

6 metres, we were to remove those sandbags as quickly as possible so that

7 the tank could get through.

8 Q. Now, Witness I, there is a pointer on your desk right there. I

9 wonder if you could take that pointer and if you could just show us on the

10 photograph that's on the ELMO the direction that the tank would be moving,

11 just so everyone knows where it was coming from and where it would be

12 going.

13 A. It is this direction here.

14 Q. From top to bottom on the photograph?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While you've got the pointer again, just so that we all know, can

17 you indicate, if you know, generally the position of the location of the

18 confrontation line, if it's -- if it appears on this photograph.

19 A. I don't understand the question. What front line? The HVO or the

20 BH army?

21 Q. Was the BH army positioned in the area?

22 A. Yes. This street came out to the Bulevar, this street, I mean,

23 which the tank used came out of the Bulevar, and the army, Armija, was

24 across the street on the Bulevar.

25 Q. Can you just -- again, on the ELMO so we all know what you're

Page 1415

1 talking about, can you indicate the Bulevar for us?

2 A. [Indicates]

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. So the tank was going to move toward the

4 Bulevar from behind the sandbags that you just mentioned.

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. Okay. Now, at the location number 1 which you've marked, did you

7 see any other AB -- excuse me, any other HVO soldiers in that area in

8 addition to the person you've called Brada?

9 A. Yes. I saw many soldiers who were well armed, and more people,

10 more soldiers, were coming every minute.

11 Q. Now you've mentioned the name Aziz Colakovic as someone who was

12 with you on that day.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Was he with you by this building where you were waiting?

15 A. Yes, he was.

16 Q. And was he taken anywhere?

17 A. Yes. We were sitting next to the building, and Ernest came and

18 pointed at Aziz and another one, another of the inmates, and told them to

19 follow him.

20 Q. Did you subsequently learn where Aziz had been taken?

21 A. Yes, Aziz wasn't detained long. He came back and sat down next to

22 me, and I asked him, "Where have you been?" And he said that he had to

23 take some fruit juices and food to the basement in a building. And he

24 said that the attack would start at 12.00, and that down there, the

25 others, Stela and others, were cursing and swearing because balijas had

Page 1416

1 become wise about the attack. And that is all that he told me on that

2 occasion.

3 Q. So just to clarify, do I understand that Aziz Colakovic told you

4 that he had been taken to a place where this Stela was?

5 A. Yes. He knew Stela because he had worked for him several times.

6 Q. And this location where Stela was, was it in the vicinity of the

7 place where you were waiting with the other prisoners?

8 A. Yes, but I couldn't see him because we were sitting along the side

9 of the building.

10 Q. Now, at some point after that, then, did you and the others hear

11 this tank actually moving down the street towards the sandbags?

12 A. That's right. I remember well, it was quarter to 12.00 and one

13 could hear from a distance the Caterpillar rolling down the asphalt. And

14 when Aziz came, it was exactly quarter to 12.00 because one man who was

15 sitting next to me had a watch.

16 Q. Then as the tank approached the sandbags, can you tell us what

17 happened?

18 A. And when the tank approached, then Ernest ordered us to scatter,

19 to remove those bags as quickly as possible, but he singled out Aziz and

20 me from that group and took us to the other side of the street, between

21 these two buildings, where a Zastava 750, that is a small car, with a PAM,

22 an anti-aircraft machine-gun mounted, and he asked me if I knew how to

23 drive this. I said no. He asked Aziz, and he said no. And then he

24 cursed our balija mothers and he asked us, "How it is possible that you

25 can't drive?" Then he ordered Aziz to hold the PAM -- for the PAM and he

Page 1417

1 then drove the car into the middle, ordered PAM -- ordered Aziz to hold

2 the machine-gun bullet belts for him, and I stood nearby.

3 Q. Now, again, just so we're clear, the person who instructed Aziz to

4 hold the ammunition belt for this anti-aircraft machine-gun, who was the

5 person who was directing you and him to do these things?

6 A. Ernest Takac.

7 Q. And when you say that he then positioned the jeep in the middle of

8 the road, are you talking about the same road where the tank was coming

9 down?

10 A. No. It was between these two buildings, across the street.

11 Q. Are we still talking about the area that you've marked as location

12 number 1 on Exhibit 14.5/2?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just taking the pointer again, Witness I, quickly -- well, I'm

15 sorry. I'm going to withdraw that question, just to move ahead.

16 Now, at this point, were you able to see what the other prisoners

17 were doing who were removing the sandbags for the tank?

18 A. Well, because I stood near that vehicle from which Ernest opened

19 fire across the Bulevar but at the level of top floors, towards the -- so

20 he didn't aim low; he aimed at upper floors on the buildings across the

21 Bulevar, so that I could really watch all that was going on.

22 Q. And then the other prisoners who had been removing the sandbags,

23 did they continue to do that, and ...

24 A. Yes, and the tank came -- fetched up very near those sandbags.

25 And then Ernest stopped the fire, and the tank was already on the sandbags

Page 1418

1 which had been scattered, and he ordered us to go back to the same place

2 next to the wall where we had been before. And as soon as the tank came

3 up to the sandbags, it opened the fire in the direction of the street over

4 the Bulevar, and we stayed in that same place behind the corner of the

5 building, where we had been put in the first place.

6 Q. Did the tank move beyond the sandbags, closer toward the Bulevar

7 confrontation line?

8 A. Yes. Some five, six, seven metres, not further than that. Then

9 it returned.

10 Q. It then withdrew to a position behind where the sandbags had been

11 placed?

12 A. Yes. It went back behind the sandbags, but it sheltered, hid,

13 behind the building.

14 Q. Okay. Now, at this point, were you and a couple of other

15 prisoners taken away from the others and moved to a different location?

16 A. Yes. They came up. I didn't even see when somebody took away

17 this group with Aziz; and four of us, that is, the group in which I was,

18 and there were four of us, Ernest was the one who took us away.

19 Q. And where did he take you and what were you instructed to do at

20 that place?

21 A. He took us to another building where there was another row of

22 sandbags, and he again told us that when the tank came up, that we were to

23 scatter to remove those bags.

24 Q. And on the photographs that you've been marking, can you indicate

25 the number of the place now that you're talking about?

Page 1419

1 A. That's number 2.

2 Q. Witness I, if I could just ask you to look at Exhibit 14.3, which

3 is the other photograph. If you could put that on the ELMO. With the

4 pointer, just so it's clear, can you show us the location where this

5 second group of sandbags was positioned. What buildings were they

6 between?

7 A. It's this part here, between this building, next to the Bulevar,

8 and this building, which was behind the health centre.

9 Q. Okay. And without those sandbags, were those areas behind the

10 sandbags exposed to fire from the ABiH positions?

11 A. Yes, right to the Bulevar, at an angle, but it was very near the

12 Bulevar.

13 Q. Can you just show us with the pointer the ABiH positions which

14 would have had a line of sight into this area you've just described.

15 A. It's these positions here.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. So you're pointing to the buildings on the

17 other side of the Bulevar. Now, again, what were the instructions that

18 you were given insofar as those sandbags are concerned, the sandbags at

19 position number 2?

20 A. We were again instructed to remove the bags, because the tank was

21 already getting to the location. But since there were only four of us

22 now, we couldn't do it all that quickly; we could not remove them all that

23 quickly. And as they were cursing at us and speeding us up, we merely

24 pushed them so that they would fall onto the ground.

25 Q. Now, as you and the other prisoners were removing these sandbags,

Page 1420

1 were you exposed to fire from the ABiH?

2 A. Yes, we were, but not a single bullet fell anywhere near those

3 sandbags or us whilst we were removing them, and we couldn't hear the fire

4 at that moment either.

5 Q. Why do you think no bullets came toward those sandbags at that

6 particular time?

7 A. I don't know why, because at that moment I really expected a

8 bullet to hit me any moment, because it was very near the Bulevar and it

9 was all open to the Bulevar.

10 Q. Now, at some point when you were in this position number 2,

11 removing those sandbags -- first of all, let me ask you: This Brada

12 Takac, was he with you or was he in the same area at that time?

13 A. Yes, he was nearby. He instructed us as we pushed those sandbags.

14 Q. Was he also in an exposed position or was he in a different

15 location?

16 A. He and others were already near the staircase into the entrance of

17 another building which sheltered them, and there was yet another part

18 which sheltered that building.

19 Q. Now, at this point, were you and the other three prisoners that

20 you were working with, were you taken inside one of the buildings that was

21 nearby?

22 A. Yes. We were taken into a building right next to the Bulevar.

23 Q. And looking at Exhibit 14.5/2, with the pointer, can you show us

24 which building that was that you were taken into.

25 A. It's this building here, this building.

Page 1421












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13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1422

1 Q. Okay. And that's the building that you've marked with the number

2 "3"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can you indicate with the pointer where you entered that

5 building? Where were you? Where was the door through which you entered

6 that building?

7 A. I can, yes. It was right in between these two buildings and the

8 staircase, but on this other side.

9 Q. So is it fair to say that you entered through the rear of the

10 building, near the place where those sandbags were located that you've

11 marked as number 2?

12 A. That's right, from the Bulevar.

13 Q. Now, after you entered this building, what did you see and what

14 were you instructed to do?

15 A. Ernest Takac took us to the windows on the ground floor which

16 overlooked the Bulevar and ordered us to remove the bags. We were not

17 alone there. The staircase was full of troops and there were some

18 soldiers with us, and there were only four of us inmates. And we started

19 to remove them, but as we removed the first -- we had barely started

20 removing bags when the bullets began to hit them, so that we and the

21 soldiers who were in there moved slightly aside to get out of the path of

22 the bullets, and Ernest Takac was with us. The fire was very fierce from

23 the Armija, so Ernest told us to withdraw to the staircase, and we then

24 climbed up to the first floor.

25 Q. Now, Witness I, taking the pointer again, can you show us the

Page 1423

1 windows that you've just mentioned which you were removing the sandbags

2 from.

3 A. It's these windows here.

4 Q. Those are the windows that are in the place that you've marked as

5 number 3; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's those windows, yes.

7 Q. You have to answer verbally, otherwise your answer doesn't get

8 recorded.

9 Now, at some point after, then, you withdrew from this position

10 near the windows with the others, were you and the other three prisoners

11 taken out of this building and moved to a different location?

12 A. No, we were not taken out of the building. We simply went up the

13 stairs to an upper floor, that is, to the top of the staircase.

14 Q. And then at some point, were you instructed to leave this building

15 and go to a different location?

16 A. No. We stayed there for a while at the top of the staircase.

17 They gave us to recharge their empty clips, ammunition clips [as

18 interpreted]. And then it so happened that two shells hit that part where

19 there were still sandbags, so that some of their men were wounded and

20 killed, and we could see it through the windows on the staircase.

21 Q. And then as a result of that shelling, was there any mistreatment

22 of you or any of the other prisoners who were still inside this building?

23 A. Yes. Ernest Takac hit Hamdija Colakovic twice and hit me once,

24 but there was a big commotion on the staircase. There were lots of troops

25 and it was pretty chaotic outside, so I couldn't see who it was on the

Page 1424

1 staircase who said, "Well, if you're all that brave, why don't you start

2 across the Bulevar?" It was one of us. But then he stopped beating us.

3 And at that moment somebody called him over the Motorola, and all I could

4 gather was that some soldiers had been wounded, and then he took us out of

5 that building.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I'm confident that I can finish the

7 witness's direct examination in ten minutes or less, so I'm in your hands

8 in terms of whether you wish to proceed for another ten minutes or so or

9 to take the lunch break at this time.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you for this suggestion. In

11 view of the tendency of the positions to work until the very last minute,

12 I think it would be better, more advisable, if we broke now for lunch and

13 resumed at 1400.

14 Witness, please will you wait until the blinds are pulled down and

15 then the usher will help you to leave the courtroom.

16 The session is adjourned and we'll resume at 2.00.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.









Page 1425

1 --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We will resume. Please be seated.

3 Mr. Usher, would you please bring in the witness.

4 Well, Witness I, I hope you can still hear me. You can be

5 seated. Make yourself comfortable, and Mr. Stringer is going to continue

6 with his questions.

7 Mr. Stringer, you have the floor.

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

9 Q. Witness I, when we broke for lunch, you were describing the

10 situation inside the building where you were -- you yourself with three

11 other prisoners, the building which I believe you've marked as building

12 number -- or location number 3 on the two photographs; is that correct?

13 A. Yes. It's correct.

14 Q. And again, just before the break, you were saying that I believe a

15 shell or a couple of shells had landed in the area of that building and

16 that Brada Takac had beaten or struck you and one of the other prisoners;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. And then at the very end, you indicated that it was at this point

20 some information came in on the Motorola that there was some commotion,

21 and that you and the other prisoners then were instructed to leave the

22 building and go to a different location; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, we were ordered to run ahead of them. We didn't know which

24 direction to run to, and they were showing us. They were pointing towards

25 where we were supposed to run.

Page 1426

1 Q. Now, when you say you were running ahead of them, do you know who

2 it is that you were running in front of?

3 A. I didn't turn around. I only heard them say where I was supposed

4 to run. However, when we reached the building --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

6 answer? We didn't hear him.


8 Q. Yes. Witness I, let me ask you if you could repeat the answer; if

9 you know, who was behind you as you were running?

10 A. I said that I was the first one in the group that was running. I

11 didn't turn around. I just listened to their instructions because I

12 didn't know where we were supposed to go. But when I got to the building

13 up there, I noticed some soldiers behind him whom I didn't know. I just

14 realised that Brada was with them.

15 Q. Now, was it Brada who had told you and the others to leave the

16 building in the first place?

17 A. Yes. He was the one who ordered us as to what we were supposed to

18 do, and he said -- and I think that Hamdija Colakovic, who was the last

19 one in the line, was carrying a stretcher, but, again, I didn't really

20 turn around while I was running.

21 Q. Okay. Now, taking the pointer, could I ask you to show us, if you

22 can, on Exhibit 14.3, where you then moved to from the building which

23 you've marked as location number 3.

24 A. I went -- this is where we went. This is the road we took when we

25 went towards the building.

Page 1427

1 Q. Now, you said - at least I heard - "This is the road we took..."

2 Was there a road or a path that you followed, or exactly how was it that

3 you moved between these two positions?

4 A. When we left the building, we went back to where we had initially

5 been, but then we turned right, started to run. I don't remember the road

6 or the path very well. I only know that at one point we reached the

7 trench, the communication trench. We got into that trench and we reached

8 a small house which had openings in both sides. Then a soldier told us

9 that one of theirs was wounded over there and that we were supposed to

10 pull him out.

11 Q. Witness I, let me ask you this, then, if you could indicate again

12 with the pointer the place where this wounded soldier was located.

13 A. The wounded soldier was here.

14 Q. Okay. For the record, you're pointing to the area that's just

15 where the number 4 has been placed on this photograph, Exhibit 14.3/1; is

16 that correct, the area location 4?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And I take it this was a wounded HVO soldier. You said "one of

19 theirs." Does this mean this was an HVO soldier?

20 A. Yes. At least, that's what we were told there.

21 Q. And what were your instructions in respect of this HVO soldier?

22 A. We were supposed to walk through that house, get to him, put him

23 on a stretcher and take him back along the same path.

24 Q. Okay. Now, the area in which this wounded HVO soldier was to be

25 found, can you describe what it was like there? Was this a sheltered

Page 1428

1 area? Was it exposed? Was there gunfire? Was there no gunfire? Tell us

2 about that.

3 A. Yes. At the entrance -- I mean, at the exit door of the house,

4 one could see the Bulevar ahead. There was a clearing over there and the

5 passage was not obstructed in any way.

6 Q. So was this wounded HVO soldier then in this clearing which you've

7 just mentioned?

8 A. Yes. But he was closer to the house. He was not in the middle of

9 the clearing, no.

10 Q. All right. Now, as you approached this HVO soldier, did you see

11 other people or other bodies also in this area?

12 A. I was the first one to get out of the house. I didn't actually go

13 to the soldier because I recognised Aziz Colakovic because of the jumping

14 suit he was wearing. He was lying in the middle of the clearing and I

15 went towards him.

16 Q. In this area of the clearing again, was there any incoming gunfire

17 coming from the ABiH positions or outgoing fire from the HVO positions

18 that were behind you? Or was it calm? Describe the situation at that

19 moment.

20 A. It was not calm. There was shooting going on. When I reached the

21 dead bodies, I was hit in my leg.

22 Q. Where were these bodies, these dead bodies, located in relation to

23 the trench which you've described?

24 A. They were located some 20 to 30 metres from the trench, almost in

25 the centre of the clearing.

Page 1429

1 Q. Were they in front of the trench? That is to say, were they

2 closer toward the Bulevar?

3 A. They were closer to the trench, but they were facing the Bulevar.

4 Q. With the pointer, Witness I, can you point the location in which

5 these bodies were found when you saw them there in this clearing.

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 MR. STRINGER: Again for the record, the witness is pointing to

8 the number 4 which is on Exhibit 14.3/1.

9 Q. Now, Witness I, it appears to me from this photograph that this

10 position is one which is not very far from the ABiH positions, the Armija

11 positions, which you had mentioned previously; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. That is correct. It is very close, but the trench was

13 actually closer to the bodies.

14 Q. And you mentioned that as you were going toward these bodies after

15 you recognised the jumpsuit of Aziz Colakovic, you were wounded. Where

16 were you wounded?

17 A. I sustained a gunshot wound to my right leg, and I fell down

18 behind one of the bodies, perhaps a metre or a metre and a half behind the

19 body.

20 Q. Now then, at that time when you reached the bodies, were you able

21 to recognise any of those people, those dead bodies?

22 A. Yes. I was. I recognised Aziz only. I recognised him by his

23 tracksuit, because it was the same kind of tracksuit that he always wore

24 at work.

25 Q. And is this the same Aziz Colakovic you mentioned earlier in your

Page 1430

1 testimony as having been brought with you from the Heliodrom on that

2 morning?

3 A. Yes. That's the same person.

4 Q. Now then, you found yourself in this area behind these dead bodies

5 in this exposed area, wounded. Tell us, what did you do at that point?

6 How did you get out of there?

7 A. Since I fell in the vicinity of the bodies, a metre and a half

8 behind one of them, I crawled up to those bodies, so that they actually

9 provided me a shelter from the shooting coming from the Bulevar. And at

10 that moment, Aziz was also lying on the back of one of the persons who had

11 been killed, and he was turned with his back on me. I managed to lift his

12 shoulder and I saw a pool of blood underneath and I realised that he was

13 dead, but at that moment I didn't know what to do.

14 Q. How long did you remain, then, in this position behind those dead

15 bodies?

16 A. I believe that I remained several minutes there.

17 Q. And then were you finally able to make your way back to the trench

18 and to get out of that area?

19 A. Since I didn't know what to do, I turned around and I saw those

20 three men carrying the wounded soldier on the stretcher, and I thought I'd

21 better get up and follow them. I heard Hamdija's voice saying that there

22 was one more wounded man over there, and when I turned around, I saw the

23 trench, and I thought that the trench was actually closer to me than they

24 were, and I jumped into the trench and I was already limping.

25 Q. Now, did Brada or anyone else, before this point, indicate or tell

Page 1431

1 you that you were to try to remove these bodies of these prisoners or to

2 try to get them to any sort of medical treatment?

3 A. No. We didn't know about the bodies at all until I saw Aziz.

4 Q. Now, when you made your way back into this trench, did you

5 encounter some HVO soldiers in this trench?

6 A. Yes. When I fell down into the trench, I stepped on one of them

7 and I told them either to help me or to kill me, and one of them helped me

8 indeed. He put some bandage on my wound.

9 Q. And then did they assist you in moving out of that trench and into

10 an area that was safer?

11 A. Yes. The one who dressed my wound asked me whether I could walk

12 up to the grammar school on my own, and I said that I would try. But they

13 actually helped me get out of the trench, and it was at that moment that I

14 realised where I was, because I used to come to work there in the vicinity

15 of the grammar school.

16 Q. You've mentioned a grammar school. Can you point that place to us

17 on the photograph which is now on the ELMO?

18 A. Yes, I can.

19 Q. So this is the building that you marked as number 5 on this

20 Exhibit 14.3/1?

21 A. Yes, that is the building.

22 Q. Now, Witness I, it's my understanding that from this point, from

23 the gymnasium or the primary school, you were put into a van, and

24 eventually you were taken to a hospital where you received medical

25 treatment; is that correct?

Page 1432

1 A. Yes, that is correct, some 20 metres from the angle of the grammar

2 school building. The man who helped me called on four other men who had a

3 stretcher, and they took me out. They carried me out of the trench and

4 took me to the gymnasium, or the grammar school.

5 Q. And you were then transported to the hospital?

6 A. Yes. After that, I was transported to the hospital.

7 Q. And then after you were treated at the hospital, it's my

8 understanding you then returned to the Heliodrom, where you remained until

9 you were eventually released; is that correct?

10 A. That is correct, except for the fact that we stayed in that

11 hospital overnight, but the next day all of the wounded were transported

12 to the Heliodrom in an open truck.

13 Q. Had you recovered from your wound at the time you were returned

14 from the Heliodrom, from this hospital?

15 A. No. I never actually recovered. My wound only got exacerbated,

16 because the bandages were not changed for about seven days. But then I

17 was transferred to a room which was like a makeshift infirmary in the

18 school, and I was given an injection and I managed to -- my wound then

19 managed to heal somewhat.

20 Q. And is this the same school building at the Heliodrom which you

21 circled on the photograph at an earlier part of your testimony today?

22 A. Yes, that's the same building.

23 Q. And Witness I, it's my understanding then that you were exchanged

24 and that you left the Heliodrom in December of 1993; is that correct?

25 A. Yes, on the 1st of December. The 12 of us from the Heliodrom were

Page 1433

1 exchanged, together with four wounded men from the hospital at Bijeli

2 Brijeg, so a total of 16 of us were exchanged on that day.

3 Q. Is the 17th of December [sic], 1993 the last day that you were

4 forced to perform labour at any of the places outside of the Heliodrom?

5 A. I'm sorry. I don't understand your question, or you have said

6 that it was on the 17th of December, but it was on the 17th of September.

7 You made a mistake with the date, I think.

8 Q. I apologise if I made a mistake. Yes. I meant to ask you: The

9 17th of September, is that the last day that you performed forced labour

10 outside of the Heliodrom complex?

11 A. Yes, that was the last day. The rest of the time I spent in one

12 of those two rooms where we were provided medical help, but many people

13 who did not manage to be accommodated at one of those two rooms were also

14 wounded but were accommodated elsewhere.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I'm nearly at the end of my

16 examination. I'd ask that the witness be shown Exhibits 44 and 45, two

17 photographs to be placed on the ELMO. The first one I'll --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. STRINGER: I apologise. Those don't bear an exhibit number,

20 so if I may put one on them at this moment, I'm happy to do that. For the

21 record, we're going to mark the first photograph, which bears -- it

22 already bears a number at the top, 00817714. That's an OTP number.

23 Mr. Fourmy, I'd propose to mark that one as Exhibit 44.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. It's in conformity with

25 the pre-numbering of the documents, the ones that have been submitted, so

Page 1434

1 I guess it's okay.

2 MR. STRINGER: And then the next photograph we will mark as

3 Exhibit number P45.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] That's the photograph 00799768?

5 MR. STRINGER: That's correct, Mr. Fourmy, yes.

6 Thank you. Now, with the assistance of the usher, I would like to

7 ask that the witness be shown the photograph marked as Exhibit P44.

8 Q. Witness I, do you recognize the person shown in that photograph?

9 A. Yes, I recognise him very well. This is Aziz Colakovic.

10 Q. And this is the person whom you found dead in that clearing not

11 far from the Bulevar on the 17th of September?

12 A. Yes, that's the same person.

13 Q. Thank you. And now Exhibit number 45, I'll ask if you recognise

14 the person shown in this photograph.

15 A. Yes. This is Hamdija Colakovic.

16 Q. Is this a person you mentioned was -- who had the stretcher and

17 was removing that wounded HVO soldier from the clearing?

18 A. Yes. That's the same person, and that was the last time I saw

19 him.

20 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, I have one final question I'd like to

21 go into private session for, and then I'll be finished with my direct

22 examination.

23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could we please move

24 into private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 1435












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Page 1436

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Stringer.

21 For the benefit of the public, let me just explain that the proceedings

22 they attend are not quite normal or usual proceedings to the extent that

23 I'm not a judge here but only a presiding officer. This is the deposition

24 procedure in accordance with Article 71 of our Rules of Procedure and

25 Evidence. The public cannot see the witness from the gallery. When the

Page 1437

1 camera is on witness's face, the image on the screen is scrambled, which

2 is part of the protective measures which have been granted in respect of

3 this witness, and which are possible to be granted to other witnesses as

4 well. In this case, the witness has been given a pseudonym as well,

5 Witness I.

6 Witness I, thank you very much for answering the questions of the

7 Prosecutor. Now you will be examined by the Defence.

8 Who is going to do the examination? Ms. Lasan? Your witness.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Lasan:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness I. My name is Lasan.

11 I'm a lawyer and I'm co-counsel of the accused Naletilic. And I will ask

12 you some questions within the framework of cross-examination on behalf of

13 the accused Naletilic.

14 MR. LASAN: [Interpretation] As most of the questions that I will

15 ask this witness have to do with his personal circumstances, I'd like to

16 ask that we go into a private session. I know this is not interesting for

17 the public but in view of the substance of the evidence, I will not have

18 too many questions and will mostly have to do with that particular

19 aspect.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Private session, Madam Registrar,

21 please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1438












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Page 1439












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Page 1440












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Page 1444

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Ms. Lasan, you may go on.

4 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness, you told us today how in 1992 you were a member of the

6 Territorial Defence.

7 A. Yes. In the early days of the war, I joined the Territorial

8 Defence in the place of my residence on the 4th of April.

9 Q. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 A. My company was set up at the village level, so there were only

18 Muslims there.

19 Q. You said that you joined the Territorial Defence. Does that mean

20 that the Territorial Defence existed as such even before you joined it?

21 A. No. That is when it was organised, but there were

22 representatives, Croat representatives, from neighbouring villages who

23 kept coming there.

24 Q. Why did they keep coming there? I mean the representatives of

25 Croats from adjacent villages to organise the Territorial Defence.

Page 1445

1 A. No, not before that, but that day, that day when it was organised,

2 representatives of the largest village in the municipality of Capljina,

3 Trebizat, came.

4 Q. And that person, I presume, delivered a speech to you?

5 A. No. The speech was delivered how to organise the defence of the

6 people. That was it. Because there wasn't enough weapons around. There

7 were mostly hunting rifles.

8 Q. And what was the purpose? Why did those HVO persons come to the

9 village at the time when the TO was being organised?

10 A. Well, at the time, in the Capljina municipality, there were three

11 different -- there were Capljina, TO, HVO, and HOS, which was also quite

12 strong in Capljina.

13 Q. How many members were there in HOS, how many in HVO, how many in

14 TO?

15 A. Well, the exact -- I know only the exact number of members of TO.

16 As for the HVO and HOS, I don't know at all.

17 Q. And what was the name of that person who you say came on the 4th

18 of April when the TO was organised and was from the HVO?

19 A. I don't know. He was the representative of the village of

20 Trebizat. I wouldn't know his name.

21 Q. Well, can you describe that person to us?

22 A. Yes. It was a tall man with a moustache, sort of dark-brown hair.

23 Q. Did he wear an HVO uniform?

24 A. No. At that time, everybody was wearing -- they were all in

25 civilian clothes. We didn't have any uniforms.

Page 1446

1 Q. You said that as a TO member, you had hunting rifles.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Did you get those hunting rifles from the HVO which was then in

4 existence?

5 A. No. Those were just personal hunting rifles that belonged to

6 hunters. People had licences for them because they were hunters, and they

7 had them before the war.

8 Q. And how many other members of the TO were there with you in it?

9 A. In my locality there was just one company, but there were a number

10 of refugees, Muslim refugees from Dubrave.

11 Q. But tell us. Give us the number. How many?

12 A. Well, about 100 men.

13 Q. How many hunting rifles did you have?

14 A. Not very many. About 30.

15 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Ms. Lasan.

16 Mr. Fourmy, I must really express my objection to this line of

17 questioning, which may be historically interesting to some people, but in

18 my view has no legal relevance whatsoever to this case: the size of the

19 Capljina TO in April of 1993, whether they had hunting rifles or not.

20 This is pointless, and I say with all due respect to counsel, this is a

21 waste of time. May I ask that the witness be given questions that relate

22 to matters of relevance to this case, this indictment, and to the

23 testimony of this witness, because I just don't see how we're ever going

24 to get through this testimony today. Mr. Seric or Mr. Par, I think, would

25 be expected to have a great number of questions of greater relevance to

Page 1447

1 ask this witness, who, after all, didn't say one thing about Ms. Lasan's

2 accused. We are talking about a period of time that extends one year

3 before the period of time in this indictment, which begins in April of

4 1993, the attacks on Sovici Doljani.

5 So this may be interesting to someone outside the courtroom, but I

6 don't see how it's of any relevance to these proceedings and I really

7 would call upon Ms. Lasan, with your guidance, Mr. Fourmy, to either

8 inform us what's the relevance of this, and if it's shown to be relevant,

9 then I won't object. And until that's happened, I will continue to

10 object, and I would ask that you guide the cross-examination in a way

11 that's more in accordance with the rules regarding scope and relevance.

12 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I think I can answer now because I

13 heard the interpreters have finished their interpretation.

14 I think this is highly relevant, the questions that I'm asking,

15 because I know which period is covered by the indictment, but I also know

16 what is the background in the indictment and what are the general

17 postulates of the indictment, and I have to inform you now and take you

18 back to what Mr. Naletilic's Defence admitted as beyond dispute. All the

19 rest for us is in dispute. And since the evidence of the witness in the

20 statement of 1999 to the OTP and the substance of the evidence in today's

21 direct examination concerned his participation in the Territorial Defence,

22 then the crossover to the HVO, and now we also hear that at some point in

23 time he became the professional member of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 means --

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] No, no. Excuse me. No. You are

Page 1448

1 still trying to put the words in the mouth of the witness which he did not

2 say. He said that he's a professional soldier in the army of the

3 Federation, which is not the same, I believe, as the army of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I think.

5 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I think there is a

6 misunderstanding here. My first question to the witness was -- and if you

7 look at the statement, at the title page of his statement of 9th of March

8 1999, the witness said that current occupation, a soldier in the army of B

9 and H.

10 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You know very well that judges do not

11 take into account the preliminary statements of witnesses. What we have

12 is the transcript. You asked a question. The witness answered that he

13 was a professional soldier in the army of the Federation, so for me, and

14 as for people in this courtroom, all that we know is the army of the

15 Federation. If you want the witness to specify whether before that or at

16 a next date he was a professional soldier in this other army, then ask

17 such a specific, but please do not put in the witness's mouth something

18 that he did not say. This is the procedure. There is the transcript and

19 there are the exhibits which are admitted or will be admitted, not his

20 statement, strictly speaking. That is not.

21 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] I will not be tendering the statement

22 because I received -- in the question and the substance of the answer, I

23 got what I asked the witness. The witness confirmed to me the date when

24 he gave the statement and what he said in it, and that is why there is no

25 need to tender it into evidence. But I do not have very many questions of

Page 1449












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Page 1450

1 this witness, if that is the reason why my colleague interrupted me, so

2 that I'd like to proceed with these questions to establish where the

3 witness was at this period of time, that is, until his arrest.

4 It is correct that during his testimony, and after his arrest, did

5 not mention my client. But because of all that I already said before,

6 this preceding part is of utmost relevance to me. Because were it not of

7 fundamental interest, my learned friend would not have started his

8 examination of the witness with the establishment of those facts.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Your cross-examination has already

10 started 29 minutes. It is 29 minutes ago that you began your 29. We

11 still -- we are still in 1992. The witness was talking about the 4th of

12 July 1993, when he was arrested, and I really believe that it is high time

13 that we come to the point. So we have already indicated several times

14 that at the moment we are only hearing the positions of the witnesses for

15 the Prosecution. If you, as the Defence, want to establish a certain

16 number of points regarding May 1992, that is your choice. 1993 or later,

17 that is again your choice. If you want to call in your witnesses at a

18 given moment - and if you wish and perhaps with certain complications, but

19 this will be analysed when the time come - you can also call back the

20 witnesses of the Prosecution on your own account.

21 But cross-examination nevertheless must make part of the -- that

22 is it must follow the logic of the direct examination and as it has been

23 said here several times, its purpose is, A, to verify facts, and possibly

24 to check that -- the credibility of a witness. So that I take the liberty

25 of telling you that from the beginning of your cross-examination, you have

Page 1451

1 not made much headway in either of these two areas.

2 So will you please move on.

3 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Sir, I will move on. I took note of

4 your instructions. Of course they are very valuable to me, no doubt about

5 that. But if I'm to establish certain things which are fundamental for

6 this witness, I must ask him of what he was, what he did, and where he

7 was, but let's go back to the examination.

8 Q. Tell me, please: When you joined the HVO -- when did you join the

9 HVO? You said that it was in 1992. Which unit did you join at that time?

10 A. After the TO, I stopped being in the army. So for a month and a

11 half, I wasn't in the army. I didn't join the HVO of my own free will but

12 I had to because I lived in (redacted) and I joined the 3rd Battalion,this

13 3rd Company.

14 Q. Which unit did it belong to?

15 A. It is the 3rd Battalion and the 3rd Company of that battalion but

16 the overall unit I believe it was the Knez Domagoj unit.

17 Q. Who forced you to join that particular unit?

18 A. Well, at that period of time, it was impossible -- if one didn't

19 have a permission of the HVO, I couldn't move around. The majority of the

20 people were at the front line, but this means that I didn't join the HVO

21 on my own will, and I was one of the very few from my town who didn't --

22 who didn't wish to do that. I stayed either at home and I -- or I went to

23 the swimming point, but I couldn't move around freely.

24 Q. Was there any mobilisation going on at the time?

25 A. Every five to seven days, I would receive call-up papers, so I

Page 1452

1 could no longer take it. Since everybody except for approximately ten of

2 us had joined the HVO, I decided to join, and I was assigned to the 3rd

3 Company of the 3rd Battalion of the Knez Domagoj unit.

4 Q. What was the name of your commander?

5 A. The commander of the battalion was Obradovic by surname, and we

6 called him Drug, but I don't know his name.

7 Q. You remained in that battalion until that time you were arrested?

8 A. Yes, until my arrest.

9 Q. Could you please tell me, you said you were manning the front line

10 against the Serbs in the town of Rotimlja?

11 A. That is correct, yes, towards the village of Gradina.

12 Q. When did you last time go to that front line before your arrest?

13 A. The last time we were taken to Rotimlja, we were taken to a

14 different portion of the line where we didn't even receive any weapons.

15 We were there without rifles.

16 Q. When was that, please?

17 A. I went to the front line on the 26th of June and I was arrested on

18 the 4th of July.

19 Q. The place of your arrest is actually that portion of the front

20 line at Rotimlja against the Serbs?

21 A. No. It's where the unit was quartered before the front line, and

22 there was a curfew at that time which had been imposed by the HVO, so we

23 were not allowed to move around.

24 Q. What happened with your weapons when you were caught?

25 A. Before we came to Rotimlja, we were always issued weapons and

Page 1453

1 ammunition at the HVO warehouse. But at that time, we were not given any

2 weapons, and I asked them, "Why didn't I receive any?" And we were told

3 that we would be given those, but we were actually given something else.

4 Q. Tell us: When you joined the HVO, did you make any solemn

5 declaration?

6 A. There was something of the sort at the Capljina barracks. I don't

7 even remember what it was all about. They gave us some insignia, which we

8 didn't wear for reasons of principle.

9 Q. Could you please describe to us the kind of insignia that you were

10 given but that you refused to wear.

11 A. I continued to wear the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina

12 insignia on my uniform and I never wanted to take it off my sleeve and to

13 put the HVO insignia on its place.

14 Q. Throughout that period of time, the -- that year when you were the

15 member -- a member of the HVO, did you receive salary?

16 A. Yes, I did at the beginning. It was really a minimal amount of

17 money, but the remaining salaries were actually never given to us;

18 Muslims, I mean.

19 Q. Did you receive a military ID from the HVO at the time you joined

20 them?

21 A. Yes. I was given a military ID which was taken away from me at

22 Dretelj.

23 Q. Were there any other members of the HVO in your family?

24 A. Yes, because my entire village had to join the HVO. As I told

25 you, the ten of us were the last ones to join the HVO, one month after the

Page 1454

1 TO was dissolved.

2 Q. A great number of houses were destroyed in your village in the

3 Serb aggression?

4 A. No, although there was an air attack when Serbs were taking their

5 people from the Capljina barracks, when we were leaving the Capljina

6 barracks.

7 Q. How many attacks were there in 1992, 1993, against Rotimlja, where

8 you held the line, the front line?

9 A. There were attacks by the HVO and Serbs, several major attacks, I

10 think.

11 Q. Are you aware of an event that took place on the 30th of June

12 1993?

13 A. No. We didn't receive any such information while we were over

14 there.

15 Q. There was no communication between your portion of the line and

16 other parts of the HVO?

17 A. We were taken there. We were quartered in a house. We had no

18 weapons. The curfew was imposed and we were -- they were all around us

19 and we didn't even know who was up there. We really didn't have any kind

20 of communication whatsoever.

21 Q. You mentioned a Gabela, Dretelj and Heliodrom while you were

22 detained. Did you see members of the military police at those locations?

23 A. Not regular military police with white belts. Those were just

24 people in camouflage uniforms with rifles. They were probably ordinary

25 guards.

Page 1455

1 Q. You didn't see anyone wearing white belts and military police

2 insignia while you were detained?

3 A. I only saw a man -- one man with a military police uniform,

4 perhaps on the first day, as we were handing over our documents, when we

5 were asked to empty out our pockets.

6 Q. So you were handed over by the military police at Dretelj?

7 A. No, we were handed over by others. But when we were lined up to

8 hand over our documents after we had got off the truck, I mentioned one or

9 two of them who resembled military policemen.

10 Q. On the basis of what?

11 A. Well, I think they had some kind of arm band indicating that they

12 were members of the military police.

13 Q. Did you see that?

14 A. I think I did see it at that time. But later on, in the camp,

15 those people were just ordinary guards, and I stayed there only for a

16 brief period of time. I didn't know. I only knew my neighbour who used

17 to work as a cook in their kitchen. That was the only individual that I

18 recognised in the Dretelj camp.

19 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] No more questions for the witness.

20 Thank you.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Ms. Lasan. Your

22 microphone, please.

23 Mr. Par?

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for giving me the

25 floor.

Page 1456

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

2 Q. Good afternoon, Witness I. My name is Zelimir Par and I am

3 Defence counsel for Mr. Martinovic. On behalf of our team, I will ask a

4 few questions of you. I will mainly be referring to the 17th of September

5 and the events that you mentioned today in connection with that date. But

6 before I do that, could you tell me: Do you know what the charges against

7 Vinko Martinovic are? Are you familiar with the indictment that has been

8 issued against him?

9 A. Very little; through the media.

10 Q. Do you know that the date in question is contained in the

11 indictment, that is, the 17th of September?

12 A. No, I don't know that, nor did I read it in the papers.

13 Q. Did you discuss this particular date and your testimony here in

14 The Hague with any other ex-detainees?

15 A. No, because I didn't know many people there, and I didn't have

16 many opportunities to meet any detainees later on except maybe for only

17 one who lived not far from my place of residence.

18 Q. Thank you. Let us move to the 17th of September. Let us

19 begin -- tell me, how do you remember that it took place on the 17th of

20 September, because many people who were detained no longer have such

21 precise recollection.

22 A. I believe it was on the 17th of September. I don't know. It just

23 remained in my memory. And as far as I can remember, it was a Friday.

24 Q. Thank you. You said that on that day you were first picked up by

25 a driver whom you heard was a member of Stela's unit, that he was Stela's

Page 1457

1 soldier. Did you know him personally or is it something that you were

2 told by others?

3 A. I was told that by other people - people who were driven by him,

4 people who went to work with Stela's unit - and they were the ones who

5 told me the name of the person and the vehicle he would be driving.

6 Q. Did Aziz tell you that?

7 A. Not only Aziz, but a number of other detainees whom I can mention

8 by their names, if necessary.

9 Q. No, it is not necessary. I just wanted to know and to establish

10 that you didn't know that particular information personally.

11 A. No, I didn't, but I remember the way he looked very well.

12 Q. So you went there to a unit. How did you know that it was Stela's

13 unit?

14 A. Through those people such as Aziz and another man by the name of

15 Baca, I learned that we had arrived in Stela's unit, and I knew from

16 before that there was a kind of workshop there. But that was actually the

17 first time that I went there, because I had not worked for them prior to

18 that.

19 Q. I understand. Thank you. You said that on that day you didn't

20 see Stela at all personally.

21 A. No, personally I didn't see him.

22 Q. Did you know any of his soldiers personally?

23 A. No. I didn't know any of them except for Dinko, who regularly

24 visited Heliodrom, who came, actually, to the Heliodrom to take people to

25 perform labour.

Page 1458

1 Q. And the person that you mentioned today, Brada, you saw him when

2 for the first time?

3 A. On that day.

4 Q. Who told you that that individual was Brada?

5 A. Well, I called him Brada. Others may have called him too, but

6 other detainees told me that his name was Ernest Takac.

7 Q. That is his full name and surname?

8 A. Yes. I don't know whether that is correct, but that is what I

9 heard.

10 Q. Did they tell you which unit he belonged to? Did they tell you,

11 "This is Ernest Takac. He is from such-and-such unit"?

12 A. No, they didn't, but since the driver, Dinko, was Stela's driver,

13 I concluded that that must have been the same unit.

14 Q. Very well. Thank you. At that time, were you familiar with the

15 area of responsibility of that unit?

16 A. No, I wasn't. It was only at the beginning, when I was in the

17 camp, that I worked in the Santiceva Ulica, and I kept losing myself,

18 because we were moved from one street to another.

19 Q. Did you at any point in time later on learn the area of

20 responsibility of that unit, Stela's unit?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Are you familiar with that area of responsibility today?

23 A. No, I'm not. I don't know much about it.

24 Q. Let us move to the event itself, that is, the event when four

25 detainees were given uniforms and rifles subsequently. You testified

Page 1459

1 today that you saw Jasminko Jazvin putting on the uniform, that on the

2 occasion he smiled at you, he waved at you; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. Did you personally hear what it was that those soldiers were

5 told? Why were they given those uniforms and rifles?

6 A. No, I didn't hear that because of the atmosphere at that moment.

7 Q. Thank you very much. I was only interested in knowing whether you

8 heard that or not, whether something was ordered or instructed to do

9 that.

10 A. No, I didn't hear, but I saw them.

11 Q. Very well. We take note of that.

12 As regards Jasminko Jazvin, you watched him putting on this

13 uniform. Did he look concerned, worried? Was it something that he wanted

14 to tell you by smiling at you and by waving at you?

15 A. Well, we realised immediately what it was all about as soon as we

16 saw the wooden rifles. It's not very difficult to conclude when you had

17 participated in about ten human shields before that.

18 Q. Thank you very much. We do not need to repeat everything that you

19 have said for the record. But thank you. You've answered my question.

20 But tell me precisely once again: Was it a kind of message, the fact that

21 he waved at you, the fact that he smiled at you?

22 A. Well, it was a kind of message that could be read on everyone's

23 face, every one of us.

24 Q. You said you saw them wearing those uniforms, carrying those

25 rifles, at the time they were passing by you.

Page 1460

1 A. No. I saw them at the time we were leaving, because at that

2 moment I turned around to see them.

3 Q. Could you tell us something more about the distances? Where were

4 they? Where were you? Where were they passing by?

5 A. They were getting out of the cellar and we were leaving the cellar

6 at that time.

7 Q. How far were you?

8 A. Not very far. I could turn around and see them. I could observe

9 everything. The street is very nearby.

10 Q. Ten metres, twenty metres?

11 A. Well, let's say 20 metres, thereabouts, but it is all very blurred

12 in my memory. I was in great fear, and I could tell you about it, of

13 course.

14 Q. I understand that. You say that you turned around and had a brief

15 glance. What did you see?

16 A. I saw them wearing camouflage uniforms and holding wooden rifles.

17 Q. Did you notice any armbands on their uniforms? Could you observe

18 anything of that kind?

19 A. The uniforms were multicoloured and I believe that there was an

20 insignia on one of the uniforms.

21 Q. But did you see any particular armbands, any ribbons tied to their

22 uniforms?

23 A. No, no ribbons whatsoever. It was just an ordinary camouflage

24 uniform.

25 Q. So you say they carried wooden rifles. My question is: Are you

Page 1461

1 sure that those were not real rifles?

2 A. I'm a hundred per cent sure, because I could hear their remarks, I

3 could hear their laughter, and of course I'm sure.

4 Q. So when you looked around to observe them, what were you able to

5 see? I'm not interested in what you heard; I just want to know whether

6 you were able to see, and on the basis of what you concluded that those

7 were wooden rifles and not real rifles.

8 A. I just saw that those were wooden rifles. I could see that. I

9 had already spent one year in war. I can tell the difference between a

10 wooden and a metal rifle, of course.

11 Q. Could anyone see that those were wooden rifles?

12 A. Yes, anyone who was present there could see that. It was not a

13 very great distance. It was all on a very restricted area.

14 Q. Do you remember how it was that they carried them? Were they

15 holding them in their hands? Were they strapped across their shoulders?

16 A. They were not actually carrying those rifles. They remained

17 standing behind us. They were simply given those rifles. They were in

18 their hands. I don't know exactly what happened with them.

19 Q. I'm sorry. I just missed a portion of your answer. My question

20 was: How were they holding those rifles? In a combat position, across

21 the shoulder? How? Could you be more specific?

22 A. You mean as they were getting out of the cellar? When they got

23 out of the cellar, they were given wooden rifles, and they just grabbed

24 those rifles with their hands, and at that time we left, so that was the

25 only thing that I could observe.

Page 1462

1 Q. Did all of them have a strap?

2 A. I remember that one of them did. I don't know whether all four of

3 them had a strap.

4 Q. A moment ago you said that you never saw any one of them

5 subsequently that day, neither on the front line nor anywhere else.

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. You mentioned a tank. You didn't see them at the tank either?

8 A. No. We were behind the wall when the tank passed through the

9 street. I didn't really know where it was. I could just tell that it was

10 moving down the road, down the street, but I didn't know exactly where it

11 was moving towards.

12 Q. Speaking of the tank, how far was it? What was the distance

13 between you and the tank?

14 A. Well, it opened fire immediately and the detonations were very

15 loud, the noise was very loud, and we were very close by, behind the

16 corner of the building, behind the side of the building.

17 Q. You couldn't be more specific and tell us whether it was 50 metres

18 away, a hundred metres away?

19 A. Well, what exactly do you mean?

20 Q. For how long did the tank move like that along the street?

21 A. For quite some time, because those sandbags were some 50 to 70

22 metres away from us, so it had to come from the neighbouring building.

23 But I didn't see it. I could only see it once I actually entered the

24 house.

25 Q. Let us quickly go back to the four detainees that we mentioned in

Page 1463












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Page 1464

1 the context of rifles. You no longer saw them on that day. Do you know

2 what happened to them?

3 A. I only saw Jasminko Jazvin from that group. I saw him a couple of

4 times after the war.

5 Q. Did you hear that they escaped, all of them, on that occasion,

6 that they escaped across the line?

7 A. Yes, I heard that.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Let us now move to those sandbags.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I apologise for interrupting

10 you, but perhaps you will probably need some additional time for your

11 cross-examination. Would this perhaps be a convenient moment for a break

12 and then we can come back after 20 minutes?

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. I think

14 that this is a convenient time indeed.

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The Court is in

16 recess. We will continue at a quarter to 4.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 3.24 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Fourmy, if I'm late, I apologise. I think I

20 misunderstood the time when we would be beginning.

21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It's okay, Mr. Prosecutor. I think I

22 said quarter to 4.00. If you're ready, we can proceed.

23 MR. STRINGER: Yes, we are ready, Mr. Fourmy.

24 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. The hearing is

25 continued. You may be seated.

Page 1465

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. Scott is coming very quickly but I think we

2 just simply misunderstood or had an incorrect idea as to the time. And I

3 apologise again to all the parties.

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] I don't see any problem.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Fourmy.

6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] My apologies. Witness I, please make

7 yourself comfortable. I think that you have a relatively loud voice so it

8 is perhaps not necessary for you to come too close to the microphone when

9 you speak, because otherwise, the interpreters have problems because your

10 voice is just too loud in their earphones.

11 Mr. Par, would you please continue with your cross-examination of

12 the witness.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

14 Q. Witness I, we discussed the sandbags. You said that that was the

15 first location that you reached, the first building. Can we say, can we

16 agree, that up until that time, you did not see Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

17 A. That is correct, I didn't see Stela.

18 Q. As far as I remember, it was Aziz who told you that shortly after

19 that he saw Stela in a cellar?

20 A. Yes. He was carrying some food, some juices or something similar.

21 Q. Did anyone else except for Aziz tell you that it was Stela?

22 A. No. I didn't know the others. I didn't talk to them.

23 Q. So since you said that Aziz is dead, there is no one else who can

24 corroborate what you have said?

25 A. Well, I don't know who other members of the group were except for

Page 1466

1 a couple of them whom I knew very well.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Speaking of the first location where you

3 had to move those sandbags, were you protected from the fire in any way?

4 Was there any shelter protecting you from the shooting while you were

5 there, while you were sitting down?

6 A. Well, while we were sitting, we were sheltered by the sandbags,

7 but as we were removing the sandbags we became more and more exposed in

8 full view of the Bulevar.

9 Q. So while you were there, you were not really protected but was

10 there any other protection except for the building? I will be more

11 specific: Was there a curtain which was designed to obstruct the view of

12 the Bulevar? Was it suspended on some wires?

13 A. No, the sandbags were piled up very high and they were higher than

14 me.

15 Q. So the sandbags provided a relatively high shelter above your

16 head. While you were there, did you see any curtain across the street

17 that was hanging from a wire which was obstructing the view from the

18 Bulevar?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. Can we therefore conclude that on that first occasion, at the

21 first location, none of you detainees sustained any injuries?

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I apologise for this

23 interruption, but as regards the question that you asked involving the

24 curtain, if I understand you correctly, you have asked the witness if he

25 saw any curtain which might have been put in place in order to protect him

Page 1467

1 and others from shooting. The answer was, "No, I didn't see the curtain,"

2 or, "No, there was no curtain." Could you please try to elicit that from

3 the witness? The answer that we have in the English transcript is, "No, I

4 didn't." I suppose that it means, "No, I didn't see it." But if you can

5 clarify that with the witness, please.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy. We

7 will try to shed some additional light to the issue.

8 Q. Just to remind you, that curtain was not designed to protect you

9 from bullets but from view. It is a kind of curtain which was there in

10 order to obstruct the view from sniper shooters. Did you see any such

11 curtain in that area?

12 A. There was no curtain whatsoever there. We were in the street, and

13 there were many members of the military there with us. They were also

14 behind the wall, and I didn't see any curtain whatsoever.

15 Q. We are still talking about the first location. You said that

16 there was no curtain and that you didn't see any such curtain?

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. We established that none of you was wounded at that first

19 location?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Let us move to the second location. There was another place where

22 you worked with the sandbags. As far as I remember, you stated that while

23 you were at the second location working with the sandbags, that there was

24 no shooting?

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 1468

1 Q. Is it then true to say that none of the detainees was wounded on

2 that second occasion either?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. After that, major shooting occurred, the most serious shooting on

5 that morning, on that day?

6 A. Yes. It was only then that we could hear shots coming from across

7 the Bulevar.

8 Q. You also said that shells landed in that area, killing some HVO

9 soldiers?

10 A. Yes. That is what I heard while I was standing at the stairway.

11 There were lots of soldiers standing on the staircase. The place was very

12 crowded.

13 Q. Can I therefore conclude that at the time of that shelling and

14 this most fierce shooting, you were inside the building and that you were

15 protected to a certain extent?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Together with some other detainees?

18 A. Yes. The four of us were there.

19 Q. Now, this commotion started, some soldiers were killed, and you

20 say that some residents from Livno were also killed, if I understand you

21 correctly.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Let me be more specific. I understand that several soldiers that

24 happened to be there were killed by shells, but while you were at the

25 building, you heard someone say that some persons from Livno had also been

Page 1469

1 killed?

2 A. Yes, that is at least what I understood, that that -- those were

3 people from Livno, Livnaci.

4 Q. When you say people from Livno or Livnaci, what is it exactly what

5 you understood? Did that imply a certain unit from Livno? Just a group

6 of people from Livno?

7 A. Well, I understood that they were referring to some kind of unit

8 from Livno, but they were not nearby. They were near the grammar school

9 building.

10 Q. Are you trying to say that there was a unit from Livno there?

11 A. I don't know exactly, but they took us to this location where we

12 were supposed to pull out the body of that wounded soldier.

13 Q. Just to clarify the record, Witness I, it is your assumption that

14 the people from Livno implied a certain unit, HVO unit, from Livno? They

15 were not detainees from Livno?

16 A. No. They said that their soldiers had been wounded but everything

17 happened very fast, and shortly after that, they made us run to this other

18 location.

19 Q. Yes, we will come to that. Thank you. You said that you knew

20 that the people from Livno were near the grammar school building?

21 A. I didn't say that I knew. It was just that I concluded, on the

22 basis of what I heard, that the people from Livno were there.

23 Q. Let us discuss Aziz, Aziz Colakovic.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You testified that you didn't know who, when and where took Aziz

Page 1470

1 because you didn't see it?

2 A. There were many people, the place was crowded. We were there

3 together with soldiers who were also standing near the building, and it

4 all happened very fast, so I didn't see -- I didn't know what was going

5 on. Everyone took everyone.

6 Q. You said, "everyone took everyone." Let us clarify that. There

7 were many people there. There were lots of soldiers there. Who was it

8 who told you that that group of people was from Livno, and who were those

9 various soldiers who came and singled out detainees?

10 A. I don't know exactly, but I indicated on the photograph with

11 number 1 that particular location. That is where all of the soldiers came

12 to select detainees. So I wasn't able, because it happened all very fast,

13 where they were taking those other detainees [as interpreted].

14 Q. Okay. So we have this commotion going on, various soldiers taking

15 away various detainees, the reason being the wounding of a soldier?

16 A. No. I'm talking to you about the position number 1, the building

17 that I marked.

18 Q. Yes, that is exactly how I understood you. We are talking about

19 Aziz and we are talking about the fact that you didn't know who took him,

20 because there were too many people around you, since the event happened at

21 the building, and it took place after the wounding of the group of people

22 from Livno.

23 A. No. I didn't notice who took him from number 1. I was still at

24 the building, or maybe on the way to the building, because we were

25 handling this second row of sandbags.

Page 1471

1 Q. So you lost Aziz from sight while you were still at point 1?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Good. On the map today, you indicated a place where you saw

4 Aziz's body, if I may put it that way.

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Now, let us take one of these maps and

7 let's take the one 14.5.

8 Could the usher please help me and put it on the ELMO.

9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Is it 14.5, Mr. Par, or 14.5/2?

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] 14.5. I can explain it. Or, sorry.

11 No, no, no. Just 14.5. It's all right. It can be any one of those,

12 because we're not going to make any marks on it or anything. Yes, this

13 one will be fine. I'm looking at it on my screen. Yes, this is fine.

14 Q. Now, Witness I, please --

15 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] But this is 14.5/2. I mean, this is

16 only for the transcript, so as to make things clear for the transcript.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] That's right.

18 Q. Right. Now, Witness I, will you please have a look. You know

19 what this photograph is about. Can one see here the place where you saw

20 Aziz?

21 A. On this photograph, no. You can't see it on this photograph.

22 Q. Very well. At the same time, I want to ask you if that means that

23 on this photograph once again you cannot see the place where you were

24 wounded.

25 A. I think you can't.

Page 1472

1 Q. Does that mean -- do you remember that other photograph, that both

2 those sites are on photograph marked 14.3 when you put that mark 4?

3 A. Yes. That clear area, that clearing, can be seen much better on

4 that one.

5 Q. Not only much better; I mean, it's not on that photograph.

6 A. That's right.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. You can remove the

8 photograph. Fine.

9 Q. If we are talking about this point 4 that you marked on photograph

10 14.3, do you think if I should give this photograph to you, or do you know

11 what this site is [as interpreted]? Do you need the photograph?

12 A. No. I know where it is.

13 Q. One question about it: Do you know whose area of responsibility

14 was this area, the area of point 4?

15 A. I do not know, because that is where I was wounded and where I

16 jumped into the trench.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Par please speak closer to the

18 microphone.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. When you reached the secondary school and you were wounded and

21 transferred to the secondary school, there were soldiers there?

22 A. Yes. They were both in the secondary school and the trenches.

23 Q. What uniforms did they have?

24 A. They had many-coloured uniforms, but I was on a stretcher and two

25 people were helping me under my armpits.

Page 1473

1 Q. My question is more precise. Were there any men in blue uniforms

2 in the secondary school?

3 A. I didn't notice them.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Will Mr. Par please speak into the microphone or

5 have the other microphone switched on.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. We're back at the place where you found Aziz.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise.

9 Q. We are again at the place where you saw Aziz's body. Were you

10 surprised to find Aziz so far from the place where you were?

11 A. Well, in a way what struck me was the tracksuit he had. Something

12 automatically drew me to that place.

13 Q. Yes, that is clear, but why so far away -- far from the place

14 where you parted company?

15 A. Well, at that moment there, I never thought about it.

16 Q. Yes, but did it occur to you, in view of the place where you found

17 him, did it occur to you that perhaps he might have tried to escape?

18 A. No. At that moment, nothing occurred to me. All I wanted to see

19 was to see whether he was dead or alive, because that is the only thing

20 which occurred to me when I saw his tracksuit.

21 Q. Now, as far as you remember, you were wounded before you reached

22 Aziz, is it?

23 A. I said about a metre, metre and a half away from him.

24 Q. Now my question would be: Now, when you were wounded, could you

25 perhaps move towards Aziz and then cross the line and flee, or was that

Page 1474

1 the reason why you moved forward rather than backward, that is, retreat?

2 A. It was impossible to cross, because it's wide open and there is

3 fire from both sides on the Bulevar. So I think the only logical, the

4 only sensible thing to do would be either to jump into a trench or lose

5 one's life.

6 Q. And in the state that you were in - I mean, wounded, there's fire,

7 fear, bodies, Aziz - were you really able to establish whether he was

8 alive or dead, how he had been wounded, maybe injured only, maybe

9 unconscious?

10 A. He was lying on his stomach, and when I tried to lift him up,

11 there was a large pool of blood underneath.

12 Q. Now, yes. Let's see. Somewhere around that time, Hamdija

13 Colakovic turns up in that area, roughly; is that true?

14 A. That was, from the point of view of the trench, to the right of

15 me, nearer that small house.

16 Q. So you said that that was the last time that you saw Hamdija and

17 that Hamdija was alive then?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. You did not see him again and you do not know what happened to

20 him?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Let us go back, if we can, to that building. There is gunfire

23 just before you are sent to go to the place where you received your

24 wound. Was Brada in that -- Brada Takac, was he in the building then?

25 A. Yes, he was there, but there were many other people there.

Page 1475

1 Q. No, no, no. Right. But I am asking you about Brada. You said

2 that one of the detainees - and you will correct me if I'm wrong - at

3 about that time said, "Well, if you are so brave, then why don't you go

4 out to the Bulevar," is that it?

5 A. No. You said one of the detainees.

6 Q. Well, that is how I understood you.

7 A. No, no, no. It was one of the soldiers, because the staircase was

8 cramped with soldiers there. We could not really see much. We could only

9 see the upper part of the staircase, and there were very many troops. The

10 building was full.

11 Q. But somebody said that. You don't know and I don't know who it

12 was who said that.

13 A. Somebody from the top of the staircase. It was from the upper

14 floor, or from somewhere above, somebody said that.

15 Q. Well, that is not how I understood you the first time, but I will

16 accept your explanation.

17 Very well. Now, you start out and move towards the place where

18 you were wounded. At some point you said that, on your way there, or

19 somewhere, a soldier said that there was another soldier and he sent you

20 in that direction; is that it?

21 A. Yes, but that is when we reached the small house which had

22 entrances on two sides, and one had been broken through, if I'm right, and

23 he told us to hurry up with the stretcher and take that soldier away, but

24 he did not tell us where he was.

25 Q. But that soldier was not Brada, was it?

Page 1476

1 A. No, no, no. He only followed us. But up there we also found a

2 group of soldiers.

3 Q. And that group of soldiers then directed you towards that place

4 above?

5 A. That's right.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Just a moment. I apologise. I am

7 drawing to a close, so I hope the interpreters won't have to put up with

8 my distance from the microphone for much too long.

9 Q. So let's go back to this place. When is it that you last saw

10 Brada?

11 A. Right at the entrance into that small building.

12 Q. And from that small building, another soldier took you?

13 A. No, no, no. Nobody went through that house. It was only the four

14 of us, the detainees.

15 Q. But that soldier, that soldier was in front of the small building?

16 A. No. He told us to go through the house because there was this

17 wounded soldier and that we should take him away.

18 Q. But the soldier who told you that was not Brada?

19 A. No, I don't think so. I think he merely took us to that place.

20 Q. And then from there, from that small building, you went on on your

21 own. You were not escorted by any of the soldiers?

22 A. Well, I said I was the first one to come out and then I saw Aziz's

23 jumpsuit. I didn't see the soldier at that particular moment because I

24 immediately turned to him.

25 Q. Stay calm. We simply have to establish these things. And we are

Page 1477












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and the English transcripts.













Page 1478

1 coming to an end. And please, I simply cannot but ask you something with

2 regard to what my colleague asked you today, and that is contact with the

3 AID prior to your statements or in relation to the statements. What I

4 want to know is: Since you are a military, how is it that AID steps in?

5 Do they have any contact with your military police or your military

6 security or something? Is there some coordination between them? Or are

7 things all left to AID? Or is it that your military police has nothing to

8 do with it? Briefly. You don't have to go into all that.

9 A. I gave a statement a long time ago, which was merely shown. That

10 is, I did give a statement about what had happened to me in the camp.

11 Q. Now, that is not in dispute. And about this statement, what you

12 told us today, I'm not going to ask you about that. What I want to know

13 is the AID's role in that and the military police, what is the

14 relationship between them? And your evidence, why is it that you didn't

15 report to the military police? What was the AID's role in that? Or is

16 there perhaps some understanding between those two services or what?

17 A. No. There was no understanding. I was simply summoned to go

18 there so I went and I gave a statement on my own responsibility, because I

19 felt it was my duty to say what had happened to me in the camp.

20 Q. So, you cannot really explain what AID does, what the military do?

21 A. No. I simply feel it is my moral obligation to tell about -- to

22 tell the truth about what had happened to me in the camp.

23 Q. So it was the question about your morals and the truth?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. But I will ask you today if today the presiding officer said that

Page 1479

1 it was possible -- that it might be possible, if need be, that the Defence

2 calls you to testify for the Defence, for instance in the case of the

3 Defence of Vinko Martinovic or Stela, would you respond?

4 A. I'm always ready whenever I'm called upon to tell the truth. I

5 will do that.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please speak into the

7 microphone. We can barely hear him.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Will you have any difficulties with visas?

10 A. I don't know. I got one now but there was a very long procedure.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And I have no

12 further questions.

13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Par.

14 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have additional witnesses -- additional

15 questions to ask of the witness?

16 MR. STRINGER: Just a few, Mr. Fourmy, if I may. I will be very

17 brief. With your permission, I would like to ask a couple of questions.

18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, please, go on.

19 MR. STRINGER: May the witness be shown Exhibit 14.5/2, which is

20 the photographs he identified previously.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

22 Q. While that is being shown, Witness, I want to ask you, just to

23 follow up briefly on something you were asked by Mr. Par on

24 cross-examination, about whether you were close enough to see that these

25 rifles were wooden or not. Do you recall those questions?

Page 1480

1 A. I do, yes. And I was close enough to see that they were wooden.

2 Q. All right. Now, if I could direct your attention to the

3 photograph, Exhibit 14.5/2, again, just if you could indicate the position

4 with the pointer that the tank proceeded down toward the Bulevar

5 confrontation line.

6 A. It's this direction here.

7 Q. Now, can you also show me, from the location of the tank, where

8 would have been the closest ABiH Armija positions?

9 A. It was across the Bulevar here.

10 Q. Would an ABiH soldier, from one of those positions, have been able

11 to know whether these rifles that were given to the prisoners were real or

12 just made of wood?

13 A. I don't think so, because if I were in his situation, and I saw a

14 man in a camouflage uniform with a weapon, then I would shoot first.

15 Q. Witness I --

16 MR. STRINGER: You can remove the photograph now, thank you.

17 Q. Witness I, you were asked about the condition of Aziz Colakovic --

18 MR. STRINGER: I yield to Mr. Par if he wants to say something.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apologies. Perhaps with a slight

20 delay, I object to the question which contains an assumption, and I do not

21 think that the witness can testify whether he could, if he were there, see

22 something or not. I do not think that this is a proper question. I

23 object to it, and I think that the answer of the witness cannot be taken

24 into account. Thank you.

25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, you are referring to wooden

Page 1481

1 rifles, is it?

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes. That is right. That is the

3 objection which refers to the -- to whether wooden rifles can be

4 recognised from the positions of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Par. Your objection

6 is in the transcript.

7 Prosecutor, you may go ahead.

8 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.

9 Q. You were asked about your ability to check the condition of Aziz

10 Colakovic at the time you found him in that pool of blood. My question is

11 this: Did you know him before the war, before the conflict?

12 A. Yes. I knew him for many, many years.

13 Q. Have you ever seen him after the 17th of September when you found

14 him there on the Bulevar?

15 A. No, never. And I attended Ahmed's funeral; he was found in

16 Stotina during an exchange.

17 Q. Now, this position that you were ordered to go to, the clearing

18 where you found the wounded HVO soldier and the body of Aziz Colakovic,

19 who ordered you to go there?

20 A. When we reached the small house, it was Ernest Takac who had

21 brought us there with quite a number of soldiers who were around that

22 small house and in the trenches. I was running ahead. I was told to move

23 on and to get the soldier out. And I entered the small building. I just

24 waited for a little while until the others arrived with a stretcher. And

25 from this small house, I -- the first thing that caught my eye was Aziz's

Page 1482

1 tracksuit. I didn't see the soldier.

2 Q. Who ordered you to go to this small house from the health centre

3 where you had been previously?

4 A. From the building, from above, it was Ernest Takac and he ordered

5 us to go at a trot, to run in front of him.

6 Q. Okay. Then did he accompany you to this small house that you've

7 described?

8 A. Yes, he did. Yes, he followed -- he came after us.

9 Q. And finally, Witness I, you've been asked about the role if any

10 that AID has had in any statements or corroboration in connection with

11 your testimony today. My question is whether AID or anyone else has ever

12 told you what to say in either your statements that you've given

13 previously or in your testimony today.

14 A. No. AID never told me what to say, and I'm talking only about

15 things that I went through in the camp. And that is only a one-day

16 story. The story about five months in the camp at Heliodrom would be much

17 longer.

18 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Witness I.

19 Mr. Fourmy, I have no further questions.

20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.

21 Witness I, you have now completed your deposition. Thank you very

22 much for having come to this Tribunal to contribute to both the

23 Prosecution and Defence with your information. All this information will

24 be transmitted to the judges. While you are still in the courtroom, I

25 would like to thank you for coming here, and I wish you a happy return to

Page 1483

1 your country of residence. Thank you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor? Do you have a

5 witness available?

6 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With your leave, Mr. Scott, I wanted

8 to point out a fact because I think it is important to point it out, and

9 to point it -- to point out at it and to draw your attention to it. My

10 learned friends and Mr. Fourmy, you know that it has been established that

11 my client has very severe heart condition. There were several

12 examinations, and I believe this fact is beyond dispute. It is a

13 tremendous burden for him to have to sit here all day through all these

14 examinations. It does represent a problem for him. As you see, he does

15 not protest against it, and as you are well aware, during these ten days

16 or so he has never asked for a single break.

17 Needless to say, he takes nitroglycerine every day before he comes

18 to the courtroom, but I believe you will agree that this case, these

19 hearings, and this situation is highly frustrating for everybody of us,

20 let alone the accused, and that it can bring about a stress and its

21 effects. So I should really like to ask you, from the bottom of my heart,

22 it is the health of a man at stake. He didn't want to say that because he

23 really wants us to fulfil the plan that we've undertaken, but I'm afraid

24 that perhaps we then won't be able to fulfil the plan that is still ahead

25 of us.

Page 1484

1 So I call upon you to perhaps finish early or perhaps make some

2 longer breaks. For the sake of the truth, I decided to say this because

3 I'm really concerned about my client. My client would never say that

4 except if he were in such a state that he'd be too -- if he'd have to be

5 carried out of the courtroom. So I'm saying this on his behalf and for

6 his sake. Thank you very much. And thank you in advance for your

7 understanding.

8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik, thank you very much. As

9 you know, the Chamber -- the judges of the Chamber have expressed - not

10 once - their regrets for -- in view of his general state of health and his

11 transfer to the Tribunal. They have expressed their concern many times.

12 And one does not need to be a major psychologist to see from here that

13 Mr. Naletilic did not insist with you, did not urge you, to ask for the --

14 for any interruption, for any break earlier than normally.

15 So Mr. Naletilic, please, can you tell us, what is exactly the

16 case? How do you feel? Do you feel up to continuing or would you rather

17 that we break now?

18 Mr. Naletilic, I am speaking to you, I'm sorry. How do you feel?

19 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [Interpretation] My state is permanent. It

20 is stable. If I could do it yesterday, I can do it today, no problem.

21 Right now, I feel all right. Five minutes ago, I didn't feel well.

22 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, thank you. You may be

23 seated.

24 Mr. Krsnik, as you know, this trial will take a long time. It

25 will be difficult. It will raise a number of questions and create a lot

Page 1485

1 of tension. So far, the witnesses have told us important things, but of

2 course more important things that they can tell the judges will be -- I am

3 really worried, not only about the health procedure concerning the

4 depositions but the procedure in broad terms. As you know, we've already

5 imposed a major demand on interpreters, technicians, the Registry, the

6 usher, and all the court reporters. I do not think it would be sensible

7 to make a short break and then to resume again for 45 minutes or something

8 like that.

9 It may sound odd, but I think it would make a much longer day and

10 therefore Mr. Naletilic might feel much worse after that. And I believe

11 that you and I, of course, are ready to stay here until midnight, if

12 necessary, so as to hear all these depositions, but I really do not think

13 that would be sensible.

14 Yes, Prosecutor, do you have perhaps any suggestions? It is owing

15 to the cooperation of everybody that we have been able to make a good

16 headway, and it would be better to have these two witnesses rather than

17 not have some of them right now.

18 MR. SCOTT: I see Mr. Krsnik is dying to say something, so I'm

19 going to do something very rare. I'm going to let Mr. Krsnik have the

20 further word.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am really most grateful to you,

22 Mr. Scott, and I apologise once again. I merely wish to insist on the

23 repeated [indiscernible]. After all, we are more or less educated men.

24 If someone is suffering from chronic angina pectoris, with bypasses, I

25 believe everybody understands, especially my learned friends, understand

Page 1486

1 what it is all about, and that a 20-minute break in such a situation may

2 be the salvation, maybe not. Because once the trial starts, and that is

3 what the experts wrote in their opinion, then everything is clear, and I

4 think we really need to shorten our working hours, and that was the reason

5 for my appeal.

6 Secondly, I must say for the transcript, I really must ask you: I

7 don't know -- the security or whatever they are called, can they allow my

8 client not to wear the bulletproof jacket? Because he's also suffering

9 from a lung disease; that is, he is suffering from the lung emphysema and

10 is already tired in the morning. We are dealing with a sick man, and not

11 a healthy man, who cannot put up with all this. I do apologise,

12 Mr. Scott, once again, and I thank you for allowing me to say all of

13 this. Perhaps you have a proposal what can we do about all of that.

14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecutor. And you are

15 suggesting that the next witness will last only 60 minutes? Is that the

16 proposal?

17 MR. SCOTT: Not quite that, Mr. Fourmy. Thank you very much.

18 Mr. Fourmy, this seems to be a time when perhaps events can assist all of

19 us. We do have a witness here. We could proceed. He's outside and we

20 could proceed. However, I think I can tell that everyone in the

21 courtroom, counsel and you, Mr. Fourmy, that at the current time I foresee

22 no problem finishing the schedule. And therefore, I think -- it's now

23 past 4.30, and I don't think it's terribly urgent that we continue today,

24 and it may be best for everyone. If we could go to private session, I'll

25 mention a couple of witnesses' names, and I think we can do this more

Page 1487

1 quickly without being concerned about their identities.

2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, private session,

3 please.

4 [Private session]

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21 4.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st

22 day of August, 2001, at 9.15 a.m.