1 Friday, 03 August 2001
2 [Depositions hearing]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m.
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. You may be seated. I
7 believe that Madam Registrar has explained to you that we have a slight
8 technical problem with the camera which ensures the distortion of the
9 image of the witness. So if you agree, I suggest that we proceed as
10 normally, believing that this protection measure will be provided, except
11 that there will be no image of the witness during the cross-examination or
12 possible redirect of the witness. If that is agreeable to you, I hope we
13 shall be able to finish it today. Yes, the Prosecutor, the defence, are
14 you nodding in affirmation.
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. Fourmy, for the Prosecution. Just so we are
16 completely clear, what I understand will happen, then, is that the cameras
17 will simply not be trained on the witness's face at any time. Thank you.
18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. That is exactly right. Yes.
19 Usher, will you please bring in the witness.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 WITNESS: WITNESS M [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness, can you hear
24 me? Can you hear me?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation], I can, yes.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Did you sleep well? Did you have a
2 good night?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much.
4 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] And the change of the weather, it is
5 incredible what the weather was.
6 Mr. Krsnik, thank you for agreeing to break your cross-examination
7 yesterday. Do you intend to proceed today?
8 Yes, Mrs. Lasan, you have the floor.
9 Cross-examination by Ms. Lasan: [Continued]
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning everybody. Good morning,
11 Witness M.
12 A. Good morning.
13 Q. We shall now continue your cross-examination. For the record, let
14 us remind ourselves, yesterday we were talking about your arrest, or
15 rather a few days before that, in the village of Rotimlja when we broke
16 for the day. I only have two more questions relative to that part.
17 You said that the food supply was cut short to the place where
18 your headquarters were?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. Can you tell us how many days were you without any food?
21 A. About two months, but then the villagers prepared food for us.
22 Q. And when you were arrested, you said yesterday that there were 42
23 or so of you there?
24 A. Yes. I wouldn't know the exact number, 42, 45 maybe.
25 Q. And you said that you were all armed?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. That you offered no resistance?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And tell us, when did MOS attack HVO units at that period of
5 time? How many days before your arrest?
6 A. I'd say it was about eight days before that.
7 Q. So you know nothing about that?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Very well. Let's then follow the same road that you took. You
10 told us that you were taken to the Gabela camp, that in the statement you
11 gave to the security services centre, you gave the full name of the person
12 who, according to you, was the camp administrator. Yesterday you said
13 that that person was Boka?
14 A. Boko.
15 Q. Yes. Would his name be Bosko Previsic, perhaps?
16 A. Could be. Could be.
17 Q. In the same statement, you said that there were some members of
18 the military police, that you were registered there, kept there for a
19 while and then sent on to Heliodrom. Is that correct?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. And tell us, that Boko as you call him, was he a member of the
22 military police?
23 A. I wouldn't know that. My impression was that he had the main say
24 in that prison.
25 Q. Right. Yesterday, you spoke about how you arrived at Heliodrom,
1 how you were put in isolation cells, then moved to the upper floor where
2 the women were kept for the International Red Cross, and then again moving
3 to the basement, to a large common room where you were put together with
4 all the other members with whom you had been brought there.
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And tell us, this room, was it under the ground?
7 A. Yes. Its windows overviewed the road. It was a cellar.
8 Q. You mean a real cellar. A cellar in the real sense of the word?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. You said that it was about 280 days that you spent in prison
11 between your arrest and your release. How many days did you spend in that
13 A. In the cellar we were from the 14th of June until perhaps the 30th
14 of June.
15 Q. And where did you go then?
16 A. To the first floor of the prison.
17 Q. And tell us, on that first floor, were the windows covered? Were
18 the windows not windows?
19 A. Yes, of course there were windows. Windows like windows like
20 windows. Perhaps not large, there were some bars, but there was enough
22 Q. Oh, I see. There was enough light. You mentioned going to
23 Rastani to work there, and because in your statements you mentioned some
24 micro locations, to help us, can you tell us, when you were brought to
25 Djubrani, how far was it from there Ante's bend, Antina Krivina, roughly?
1 A. Well, yes.
2 Q. Tell me approximately?
3 A. Well, approximately about four or five kilometres.
4 Q. And from Ante's bend to the entrance into the village of Rastani,
5 how far is that?
6 A. About 700 or 800 metres downhill.
7 Q. Are you familiar with Dumpor's houses in Rastani?
8 A. Yes. These are the first houses you come across as you enter
9 Rastani from Ante's bend.
10 Q. And you were in one of those houses?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Right. You mentioned that about ten of you were taken to Rastani
13 and you also listed some names.
14 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session for a
15 moment? Because I have two or three questions related to that.
16 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Please proceed. We are in open
16 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You mentioned that upon arrival at Djubrani that you had a certain
18 task, that you were made there to clean and fortify various facilities -
19 that is what you mentioned - and you said that on the 23rd of September, a
20 truck came and that eight of you were taken by that truck in the direction
21 of Ante's bend, Antina Krivina. Tell us, do you know why the other two
22 stayed behind in Djubrani?
23 A. No, I don't know.
24 Q. Nobody told you that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. And when you arrived at the Ante's bend, all the way from Djubrani
2 to there, you road in a truck?
3 A. No. Slightly before we arrived there, we got off for safety
4 reasons. So the truck did not take us straight to that bend in the road.
5 Q. And how long did you stay there?
6 A. You mean Ante's bend? Well, for about half an hour, and then
7 after that half hour, they took us down to Rastani.
8 Q. To Rastani. Tell us: The person that you mentioned, Kilibarda or
9 something like that, where is it that you met that person?
10 A. We met that person when we got down, when we approached Rastani,
11 when soldiers split us into two groups, four strong each, me, Ermis,
12 Cohodarevic and Baljic. So as you climb down to Rastani, he made us go to
13 the left and the rest to the right. And as we walked down the left side
14 of the road, we fetched in front of this Mr. Kilibarda or Kolubarda or
15 something, and he seemed to be the boss there.
16 Q. So you met him in Rastani when you were only four -- when there
17 were only four of you, rather than ten, as in the beginning?
18 A. Yes, but not in the houses. It was outside the houses.
19 Q. Very well. And you said that that man was the boss. How many
20 people did he have with him?
21 A. Well, some five or six.
22 Q. Five or six. And you say that he told you to go to the houses to
23 check if there was -- if there was still some men of the BH army in them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Yesterday, you mentioned that you, that is four of you now, were
1 ahead, that you walked ahead, that you all walked abreast, and that other
2 soldiers were behind you, some five or six metres behind you, you said,
3 except that they were scattered. And when you mentioned that, did you
4 mean this Kilibarda and those five or six soldiers of his that you say
5 were with him?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Tell us, please: You said that those houses had already been
9 A. Well, by a shell or two, but they had not yet burned down. There
10 was a lot of gunfire that morning.
11 Q. But did those houses have their windows and doors?
12 A. Yes, they did -- or wait. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure if
13 they all had them, but I'd say yes, most of them still had their doors and
14 windows. One cannot really describe it when one wasn't really taking in
15 everything that one saw.
16 Q. Tell us, please: Between your descent from Ante's houses - you
17 said that it took you four or five kilometres and then you walked downhill
18 and met Kilibarda - how long did it take you to come down the hill?
19 A. Well, it could have been some 40 minutes or so.
20 Q. And where were you then joined by those other two who had stayed
21 behind, Edin Sadzak and Rasid Malkic?
22 A. Well, down in those first houses, as we entered those first
23 houses, then there was a break. And then they arrived with some food.
24 They were carrying food in a bag. That is, they had one sack which had
25 bread in it and the other one some tins and cigarettes.
1 Q. You said yesterday that they had told you that at Ante's bend they
2 had seen Tuta?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. Which one of you told you that?
5 A. It was Edin Sadzak.
6 Q. Tell us, did he describe the person that he had seen?
7 A. Well, I suppose he knew him from photographs before, but he simply
8 said that he was sure it was Tuta.
9 Q. And apart from telling you that at Ante's bend he had seen Tuta,
10 did he say anything else?
11 A. Well, and that it was his impression that soldiers were afraid of
13 Q. But that is your impression. That is what you spoke about. What
14 I want to know is when Edin told you, "I saw Tuta at Ante's bend," did he
15 say anything else?
16 A. That he was coordinating the action.
17 Q. Yesterday, while answering the Prosecutor's questions about that,
18 namely how, on the basis of what, did you conclude that the soldiers were
19 members of the Convicts Battalion, and you mentioned three things. You
20 said that you drew that conclusion from the fact that you had been told,
21 and now you a moment ago you told us who it was, that it was Edin Sadzak
22 who had seen Tuta. Secondly, that you -- did you see from the behaviour
23 of soldiers, and you also concluded that they seemed to be in fear. And
24 thirdly, that it was because of a certain Nikica whom you knew as a
25 prisoner from Heliodrom.
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And that is correct, is it? Now, I'd like to ask you to describe
3 this Nikica to me.
4 A. Well, it's a man who was about 40 at that time. I'd say he was a
5 Serb but when we arrived at Heliodrom to this prison, in the morning when
6 we would go to have our breakfast, or evening, he'd be around there to
7 bring us water or would give us some -- the scissors for the -- to cut our
9 Q. So he was a person who helped you in the prison?
10 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
11 Q. And that is how you remembered him because he was good to you?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. And tell us now, with regard to those soldiers, did you talk with
14 soldiers? Why did you think that they were afraid?
15 A. Well, as we were going down to Rastani, some were retreating, and
16 I saw their eyes and they looked to me scared. They looked to me afraid.
17 Q. So it was by the eyes that you concluded that?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Yesterday, we talked about it and you said you remembered all the
20 statements that you made. You said that you remembered what you had told
21 on those other occasions, that the statements were true, and I therefore
22 would like to ask you now, how is it that neither in the statement that
23 you gave in March 1996 to the Security Services Centre nor in your
24 statement that you gave in 1998 to the representatives of the
25 international Tribunal, in neither of those statements do you mention a
1 person called Nikica. This is a person who helped you, who no doubt at
2 the worst time of your life it was a person who extended help to you, and
3 it is only now in 2001 you mention the existence of such a person for the
4 first time?
5 A. Well, I didn't think it was important.
6 Q. And why do you think it is important today?
7 A. Because you are leading me to it. How is it that I knew they were
8 the Convicts Battalion.
9 Q. No. I merely reminded you of your evidence yesterday. Those same
10 questions. If one reads the transcript of your examination, then one sees
11 that those questions were also asked of you in 1996 and 1998, and you
12 never once mentioned that. It was only yesterday for the first time that
13 you, answering the Prosecutor's question, you mentioned Nikica, and in
14 answer to his questions which led to you that person.
15 A. And what do you want me to do now?
16 Q. I want you merely to explain it to me, if you can. If you don't
17 think it's important, then never mind.
18 A. Well, maybe I omitted it. I simply did not think it was important
20 Q. Very well. Let's now go back to Rastani once again. Yesterday
21 you spoke about a case when, after taking out those dead HVO soldiers and
22 then those dead ABiH soldiers, you saw a situation when HVO soldiers, that
23 is HVO soldiers beating two members of the BH army. You said that they
24 beat them terribly, hitting them with their hands and feet and boots and
25 rifle butts, that they doused both of them in petrol, but that they
1 eventually decided not to set them on fire. Tell us, how do you know
2 about this incident?
3 A. Because I was there.
4 Q. So you were an eye witness to that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How far away were you from the incident?
7 A. Some seven or eight metres perhaps.
8 Q. And you were there all the time, all the time during the incident,
9 during that battery?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you're absolutely sure that it happened as you described it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In one of your statements, you mentioned that you were also aware
14 of some of the particulars of those two soldiers?
15 A. Well, when we interrogated them, I heard their last names.
16 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, could we go into private
17 session perhaps for a minute or two?
18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Mrs. Lasan.
19 Madam Registrar?
20 [Private session]
12 Page 1722 redacted, private session.
24 [Open session]
25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We are again in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 public session.
2 MS. LASAN: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just a few more brief questions. From all that you have told us,
4 I suppose that I can conclude that during your detention -- during the
5 time that you spent in various locations that you mentioned, you never,
6 not a single time, saw Tuta personally?
7 A. No.
8 Q. It's a bit awkward for the record. Shall I reformulate the
9 question now? During all that time, you never saw Tuta?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And just another thing. You were asked by the Prosecutor
12 yesterday whether during your stay at Heliodrom you saw some military
13 units, you saw any military units. You said that you had seen -- let's be
14 precise. You said you had seen members of the 9th Battalion of the HVO
15 stationed there.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In response to the next question of the Prosecutor, you said that
18 you saw members of the Croatian army at Heliodrom.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You said you knew they were members of the Croatian army because
21 you saw their insignia on their uniforms and because they were using the
22 Croatian accent, that particular dialect.
23 A. Not all of them but several of them did.
24 Q. So please, would you clarify? You talked to those members?
25 A. Yes. I worked for them once.
1 Q. When did you work for them? On which day? What date?
2 A. I can't remember now.
3 Q. Where did you work for them?
4 A. At Heliodrom, in the building of the Heliodrom, where their base
6 Q. Would you, first of all, tell me where you were located at the
7 time, in which building?
8 A. Where I was working?
9 Q. No, in which building where you were placed.
10 A. In the central prison.
11 Q. That's what you said yesterday. And where did they accommodate
12 these members?
13 A. Next to the central prison. Perhaps a hundred metres away in
14 another building. I don't know what it was.
15 Q. Was it left to the prison or to the right?
16 A. When you go out of the prison, to the right.
17 Q. To the right you say. So you had contact with them. You saw
18 their insignia, you say, and you heard them use that dialect.
19 A. Yes. There was a commander there who treated us well, and he even
20 brought us some food back to the prison when we returned.
21 Q. What was the job specifically that you did for them?
22 A. Cleaning rooms, toilets, things like that.
23 Q. You worked once for them cleaning those rooms?
24 A. Once.
25 Q. How long did it take all in all?
1 A. Approximately five or six hours.
2 Q. Five or six hours. Tell me, please, do you believe this piece of
3 information is important?
4 A. Which?
5 Q. The fact that you saw members of the Croatian army at Heliodrom.
6 A. I answered you what I knew. You asked me that, and the Prosecutor
7 asked me yesterday.
8 Q. Do you remember the statements that you had given earlier, the
9 statements that I mentioned?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you remember what is written in your statements about this
12 particular point?
13 A. I don't remember what exactly is written there, because it was
14 some time ago.
15 Q. There is no mention in either of your statements that you had seen
16 anyone from the Croatian army, either in Hodbina or in Heliodrom.
17 A. It wasn't important then.
18 Q. It wasn't important then in 1996, three years after you left the
19 camp. And in year 2001, it is important. Thank you very much. I have
20 finished my examination.
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Lasan. I believe
22 your last remark is your comment. It's not what the witness said.
23 Mr. Seric, do you have any questions for the witness?
24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'll be very brief, Mr. Fourmy, and to
25 be even briefer, I shall ask Madam Registrar and the usher's assistance in
1 providing the witness with the photographs which are Prosecutor's
2 Exhibit 14.3 and 14.5.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:
4 Q. In the meantime, I'll introduce myself. I'm Branko Seric, counsel
5 for the accused Martinovic.
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric. I will avail
7 myself of this opportunity to signal that we have again the technical
8 amenity of face distortion, and it can be used again. Thank you.
9 You may continue.
10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Witness M, would you please look at photograph 14.5 first. Can
12 you point to us where is the Bulevar in this photograph?
13 A. The Bulevar, it's the street over here.
14 Q. Can you please show it on the ELMO?
15 A. [Indicated]
16 Q. Since you stated that you had been brought to work on the Bulevar
17 and that you were in Kajta's house, can you see Kajta's house on this
19 A. I couldn't tell you that, because it was such rumpus at the time
20 that it was difficult to tell.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, will you show the
23 photograph 14.3.
24 Q. Witness, you now see a broader view of the Bulevar, and you see
25 more houses on this. Can you determine the location of Kajta's house on
1 this one? Please show us the Bulevar again so we is can see it all.
2 A. That is it.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Can you locate Kajta's house on this
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Seric.
8 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any redirect?
9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Mr. Fourmy, for this
10 possibility. I have no further questions.
11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness M. Your
12 testimony is concluded. I wish to thank you for having come to The Hague
13 to give us the information that you provided in response to the
14 Prosecution's and the Defence's questions. You are now free to go home.
15 And I will kindly ask you not to move before the usher comes to see you
16 out of the courtroom, but I wish to thank you very much and I wish you a
17 safe trip back home.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, too.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, are you in a position
21 to proceed with the questioning of the next, and I believe the last,
22 witness, for the purpose of these depositions?
23 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. Fourmy, we are. Pleased to say this will be
24 the last witness of the week. And this witness has asked for the similar
25 protections that many of the other witnesses have asked, that he testify
1 with a pseudonym and facial image distortion, which has previously been
2 agreed and granted. And I think by way of preliminaries, that is all.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This witness's pseudonym is N.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Good morning. Can you hear me? Can
6 you hear me well?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You have asked for protection
9 measures. Those protection measures have been granted you. So the image
10 of your face will be distorted and you will be addressed by a pseudonym.
11 The pseudonym is Witness N. So I kindly ask you not to be vexed about
12 this but we will all address you as Witness N. Will you please take the
13 solemn oath?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS N
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness N. Will you
19 please sit down? Make yourself comfortable. Are you comfortable?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] You will be now shown a paper where
22 your name is written. Do not say it aloud. Just tell us if it is really
23 your name.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Usher, you can distribute this paper to the parties.
2 Witness N, you will first be questioned by the Prosecutor and then
3 questions will be put to you by the Defence. If the Prosecutor so wishes,
4 he may ask you additional questions after that, and after that, your
5 testifying will be finished. What I would like to ask you, since you have
6 been kind enough to come here, is to give us clear and complete answers,
7 to the extent of your ability, to the questions you will be asked. If you
8 don't understand a question, please don't hesitate to say so, and if you
9 don't know something, just say, "I don't know." There is absolutely no
10 problem with that.
11 So if you have no questions, Mr. Prosecutor, you may commence the
13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.
14 Examined by Mr. Scott:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness N. Witness N, I'm going to say, for your
16 benefit primarily, that I'm not going to talk -- ask you about -- much
17 about your background information, in terms of your residence or family.
18 I don't think it's particularly necessary to your particular testimony.
19 And I'm doing that also to protect your identity in connection with the
20 protective measures that have been granted. You understand?
21 A. Yes, I understand.
22 Q. In that regard, if I may be allowed, I would just caution you in
23 your answers you need not provide your name or your family -- any -- the
24 name of any family member or your residence, unless counsel indicates some
25 reason they believe that is necessary. All right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, Witness N, before the war, I understand you were living in
3 East Mostar; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And when the war with the Serbs started, you and your family moved
6 from East Mostar into West Mostar; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it also correct, Witness N, that when the war with the Serbs
9 started, you were then a member of what was then called the Territorial
10 Defence in Mostar?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it also correct that around this time there were not enough
13 weapons to go around among the TO, and a number of Muslim men joined the
15 A. Right.
16 MR. SCOTT: And Mr. Fourmy, I'm sure it's apparent, but I am in
17 fact leading the witness through these preliminary matters, but that
18 leading will stop, I assure you, in a few moments.
19 Q. And is it correct, Witness N, that you yourself joined the HVO in
20 approximately April 1992?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Now, during the time that you were a member of the HVO -- and I
23 should say for the record, you are a Bosnian Muslim, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And during the time that you were serving with the HVO, would it
1 be fair to say that you and other Muslim men and the Croats were fighting
2 together against the Serbs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, at any time during that period,
5 were you engaged in armed conflict, if you will, or fighting against the
7 A. No.
8 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to approximately the end of
9 June 1993. If I understand you well, you had then been a member of the
10 HVO for some approximately 14 months?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us, please, what happened at the end of June 1993?
13 A. When I was captured?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. I was a member of the HVO. I was on that line in --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name place.
17 A. We had come back home and the next morning a military policeman,
18 together with a civilian policeman, came. They took my military identity
19 card and they told me to climb down the stairs and get out of the
20 building. When they put us on -- then they put us on to a bus and drove
21 us to Heliodrom. So I was arrested.
22 Q. All right. Let me just ask a few details. You testified just now
23 that one of the two men was a military policeman. And when you say he was
24 a military policeman, he was -- to your knowledge, he was in which
25 military group, or what side?
1 A. It was the military police of the HVO.
2 Q. And the civilian police officer who came, was he a police officer
3 of what was then being called Herceg-Bosna or the Croatian Community of
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, tell us a bit more what happened at that time.
7 What -- they came to your door and you were arrested, you've told us. But
8 can you tell us a bit more about how that was actually carried out? What
9 happened next?
10 A. Well, it's not clear to me what happened this day, why it happened
11 like that, because I was a member of that HVO and it was odd for me to be
12 taken to that prison. However, it became clear to me later. Everything
13 became clear to me.
14 Q. All right. I'm going to ask you about that in just one moment,
15 but when they came to your door, can you tell us, sir, did they ask for
16 and did you show them some -- your HVO identification?
17 A. Yes, yes. I had an identity card of the Croatian Defence
18 Council. They saw it and they told me to go down the stairs and get out
19 of the building. They saw my name and surname.
20 Q. And why do you tell us, sir, that on seeing your name and surname,
21 you were directed to go out of the building?
22 A. Well, I think it was the reason for my arrest, and the reason for
23 the arrest of all the others who ended up in that camp.
24 Q. And the reason being, sir, if you can just state it in your own
25 words, complete your thought or statement? What was it about your name --
1 forgive me, let me rephrase it. You told us it was because they saw your
2 name. What was it about your name that you believe led to your arrest?
3 A. Well, I think that, had I been a Croat, I wouldn't have been
4 arrested. That's what I think.
5 Q. All right. Now, when you went down to the street, did you see
6 other Muslim men coming out of flats and homes?
7 A. On that bus, there were already some people there and they
8 ordered -- told me and a neighbour of mine to get on to the bus. We did,
9 and sent on to Heliodrom.
10 Q. All right. Where were you kept or placed at the Heliodrom?
11 A. In the building called the school, because it must have been a
12 school once upon a time.
13 Q. Can you just tell us, sir, if we can jump for a moment to the end
14 of your story or at least this part of it, how long were you held at the
15 Heliodrom altogether?
16 A. You mean me?
17 Q. Yes. Approximately.
18 A. Half a year.
19 Q. Now, can you just tell us briefly some of the things that happened
20 to you at the Heliodrom itself? We're going to go to other parts of your
21 testimony in a moment, but how were you treated and the other Muslim
22 prisoners at the Heliodrom treated?
23 A. Well, it varied from one person to the other. Personally, I did
24 not have any unpleasant experiences, that is, not quite unpleasant. There
25 was some singing, because in some hallway, we were all made to sing some
1 Croat songs, and that was not a pleasant experience. But otherwise,
2 personally, there is nothing I can mention.
3 Yes, there was gunfire that Bruno Busic Unit fired through the
4 windows, and we of course went down to the floor so that it would not hit
5 us, and that's it.
6 Q. What was it about the Croatian songs that you were forced to sing
7 that was offensive?
8 A. Well, what I know, there are songs with something about Jure
9 Boban, in that sense. I've forgotten really. I don't know. But this
10 song itself is not a very pleasant song.
11 Q. Now, at the time that you were being held at the Heliodrom, were
12 you able to -- you mentioned just now the Bruno Busic Brigade. Did you
13 identify -- were you able to see or identify any other military units that
14 were also at the Heliodrom at that time?
15 A. No. Those Bruno Busic men, they were more or less across the
16 school and to the left of the school were Gromovi Thunders, and they are
17 the Croatian army. There were some other units, too, but I do not know
18 which ones were they.
19 Q. Now, how did you know that the Gromovi was a unit from the army of
20 the Republic of Croatia?
21 A. Well, I worked quite often for the ^ Gromovi, and on their sleeves
22 they had their emblems, and they were dressed slightly different from
23 other HVO soldiers and a bit more educated and so that was that.
24 Q. Very well. Now, Witness N, during the time that you were held at
25 the Heliodrom, did you come to know -- did you meet a person named Nenad
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
2 A. I didn't know that man personally, but I saw him there on a couple
3 of occasions, but I did not know him before. Yet I saw them there a
4 couple of times. So there you are.
5 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, whether for whatever reason and
6 you can tell us why, if you can, Mr. Harmandzic seemed to be well known
7 among the Muslim prisoners?
8 A. Well, I guess some other people knew him, some who were older,
9 because he was a policeman or something before the war. I personally did
10 not know him.
11 Q. As much as you can, Witness, can you please assist us with a
12 general description of what this Nenad Harmandzic [Realtime transcript
13 read in error "Haramandzic"] looked like in terms of his height, his
14 build, his age? Just whatever you can help us with.
15 A. Well, what shall I tell you? He was about 190, 195 centimetres
16 tall, strongly built, broad shouldered, age 50-ish perhaps. I'm not sure.
17 Q. All right. And do you know whether he had a nickname?
18 A. Well, as far as I could make out, it was Neno or Nano or something
19 like it.
20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, Mr. Poriouvaev has alerted to me for the
21 record on page 27, line 3, I don't think there is a second "a" in
22 Harmandzic's name after the "r" it should be H-a-r-m.
23 Q. All right. Witness N -- I'm sorry. All right. He had a nickname
24 either something like Neno or Nano; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, did you learn around this time or sometime, perhaps a bit
2 later, that this Mr. Harmandzic had been killed?
3 A. Yes. I heard it from prisoners. I did not see that, but
4 prisoners said that he had been killed.
5 Q. All right. Now, we are going to come back to this part of your
6 testimony in a few minutes, but would you please tell the Chamber what you
7 heard about Mr. Harmandzic being killed?
8 A. Reportedly that he was at Stela's and that some had killed them
9 with their shovels, with spades, or what do I know, some tools, and that
10 he ended up in a canal. That's what I heard. That's the story.
11 Q. All right. Now, during the summer of 1993, approximately July and
12 August, after you were arrested, were you and other prisoners at the
13 Heliodrom taken to the confrontation line in Mostar to perform various
14 types of forced labour?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And what sorts of things, sir, in your own words, were you
17 required to do?
18 A. Well, what do you want me to tell you? We had to dig those
19 trenches. We did what we were told to do, what we were asked to do,
20 including all those dirty jobs and, I don't know, things like that.
21 Q. Can you just tell us very briefly some of the things that you were
22 taken to in Mostar to perform these kinds of projects?
23 A. Well, we were on the Bulevar, the secondary school at Stela's,
24 next to the post office, centre. Many other places.
25 Q. All right. Now, you just mentioned that you worked at the
1 Bulevar, and you also said Stela's.
2 A. I did.
3 Q. Can you tell us more, please? Did you understand that one of the
4 locations that you worked for was under the command or authority of
5 someone named Stela?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And how was it that you were familiar with this name, or how is it
8 that you can tell us that it was Stela?
9 A. Well, what do you know? Everybody knew that from other prisoners
10 who had -- who had gone to work at that place before me.
11 Q. And did you know -- can you tell us please, if you can, what the
12 surname was of this person called Stela?
13 A. Martinovic.
14 Q. Now, is it fair to say, Witness N, that during the various forced
15 labour that you were forced to perform, required to perform, this was
16 often under hostile fire conditions?
17 A. That was so more often than not on those lines, across the
18 buildings where the fire came from, where there was fighting.
19 MR. SCOTT: I see Mr. Krsnik is on his feet, Mr. Fourmy.
20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. My apologies
22 to my learned friend.
23 You said yourself that in the beginning, you will ask some leading
24 questions, and we kept silent, but now I think this really has gone beyond
25 the limit. So could you please think about rephrasing your questions.
1 Thank you.
2 MR. SCOTT: Certainly, Mr. Fourmy. I must say I didn't know there
3 was any dispute that these things were happening under hostile fire. It
4 seems to be quite well established and essentially undisputed at this
5 point in time, but nevertheless, we'll go forward.
6 Q. Now, can you tell us, sir --
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I am sorry. I am sorry. I am deeply
9 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I know, and
10 I'm only a Presiding Officer, but as far as I know, it has not been
11 accepted that there had been forced labour and under fire.
12 Now, from the evidence and the depositions - sorry - that
13 happened during those two weeks, yes, we heard that, but I do not think
14 that an agreement has been reached on this. So for you, perhaps, this is
15 quite self-evident, but what Mr. Krsnik is saying is that he would like
16 you to rephrase your questions, that is, to leave your questions more
17 open-ended, if possible; that is, do not say, "And you had to do forced
18 labour under fire," but, rather, ask, "What were the conditions under
19 which you were made to work?" I mean, it is the same thing, but
20 nevertheless, it can change the sense of one says Mr. Krsnik.
21 Mr. Krsnik do you have anything else to add.
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No.
23 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric?
24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No. After what you have just said,
25 Mr. Fourmy, no, I really have nothing else to say, because you said
1 precisely what I was about to say.
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Krsnik?
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I really will listen very
4 carefully to every question, and whenever I find a question leading, I
5 will stand up to object. No understanding, no agreement about fire or
6 anything. We know very well what the Prosecution needs to prove, and that
7 is how we shall be reacting. And from now on, I will object whenever I
8 find a question leading.
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, my apologies, after listening to the
10 cross-examination for the last two weeks, I did not understand anyone to
11 seriously dispute that there was forced labour taking place under fire
12 conditions; however, the issue being under whose control and at what
13 particular locations this was happening. But I've been corrected. I'll
14 go forward. Thank you.
15 Q. Witness N, can you please tell us -- can you give us any
16 instances -- can you tell us what happened to any of the -- some of the
17 prisoners that you were working with, in terms of people who were injured
18 or killed while performing this forced labour?
19 A. Personally, I found two dead bodies in a canal, and I was ordered
20 to take them to Liska Park and bury them there. So those men must have
21 got killed somewhere in that area, so that I and another --
22 Q. Excuse me, Witness N. I apologise for interrupting you. Let me
23 come back to that in a moment. Perhaps with the exchange of counsel, we
24 took a bit of a detour. What I'm talking about now is, when you were
25 working at the locations that you've just told us about a few minutes ago,
1 during that time, on the streets, at some of the locations - in light of
2 counsel's statements, I'm not going to mention the street names at the
3 moment - but did you see or learn that prisoners had been -- any prisoners
4 had been wounded or killed during that time?
5 A. Well, my brother-in-law was wounded whilst I was there, and of
6 those I know, he was the only one at that time. But before that, I had
7 heard stories, "Oh, yes, that one's got killed, that one wounded," and so
8 on, but I did not witness that.
9 Q. All right. Very well. Now I want to take you forward, please, to
10 a time -- to a night in July, and I just want you to tell us, please, in
11 your own words what you were -- happened to you that evening, in terms of
12 being summoned to perform a particular task. Can you can just tell us
13 about that, please?
14 A. Well, that night, one night, I don't know which night that was, do
15 I, Stela's driver, who drove us from Heliodrom to the site where we
16 worked, he came after midnight, 1.00, 2.00, 3.00, I don't know, and he
17 said, "You, you and you," that is three of us, "Come with me." And we
18 went to that front line. And he turned us over to some guys in uniforms,
19 and they told us to get those two bodies from the canal, to carry them to
20 Liska Park and bury them there.
21 Q. All right. Now, excuse me, if I can stop you there for a moment,
22 let's go back to the beginning of this. Where were you actually located,
23 where were you being held, at the time this driver came and got you and
24 another prisoner or two?
25 A. Well, it was a garage, a building towards the Velez pitch, but I'm
1 not quite sure what building. That's where we slept, on concrete, of
2 course. That is where they locked us up. There was a sliding gate and
3 all those doors. And then he drove the vehicle right up to the gate so
4 that we couldn't escape. And that is where they kept us.
5 Q. And was this garage, to your knowledge, associated with or a part
6 of the area under control of a particular commander or unit?
7 A. I wouldn't know, no, I wouldn't.
8 Q. Can you tell us where this garage was located, approximately?
9 A. Well, that garage was roughly -- if you -- behind the front line,
10 that is towards the rear, where the HVO was. It could be roughly about
11 500 metres, perhaps more. I don't know exactly.
12 Q. All right. You told us a few moments ago that one of the units
13 you had worked for was this unit controlled by Stela. I'm simply using
14 that for point of reference since you've already testified to that. Where
15 was this garage located in reference to the location where you worked for
17 A. The garage where we slept?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Well, I've told you, it was inside that area of responsibility of
20 the HVO, some perhaps 500, 700, perhaps 1.000 metres, I'm not sure.
21 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to stay with this just for another
22 moment, sir. When you said inside the area of the responsibility of the
23 HVO, what unit of the HVO?
24 A. Oh, I wouldn't know that, no.
25 Q. All right. Now, what happened after you and the others were taken
1 out of the -- this garage?
2 A. When I -- then they took us to the front line, I mean that driver,
3 and turned us over to those guys in uniforms, with rifles in their hands.
4 Q. All right. And was one of the other men that -- one of the other
5 prisoners that you were with, do you remember his name, or the name of
6 either of the men?
7 A. Only one of them.
8 Q. Can you tell us, please?
9 A. Sukalic, last name Sukalic. I don't know the first name, but I
10 know the man.
11 Q. All right. Now, when you were taken to the confrontation line,
12 what part of the line were you taken to? As much as you can tell us, what
13 location or building was this?
14 A. It was the building of the emergency aid, I think, some -- they
15 had some sort of a base, station, Stela's, where soldiers slept, I guess,
16 before they would go down to the line, as we called it, and that was
17 there, roughly.
18 Q. All right. Now, you told us several times now -- and I'm sorry we
19 keep going back for further details, but you told us several times that
20 you were then taken to where you saw two bodies; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And tell us what you saw and then what happened after that.
23 A. You mean when I got there?
24 Q. Yes, please.
25 A. Well, they lit slightly this canal. You know, the canals for
1 vehicles where you change oil or where you repair cars. And there were
2 some chairs there, metal chairs.
3 Q. All right. Now, Witness, I think this is important because
4 "canal" can mean, I think, a lot of things, perhaps especially here in
5 The Hague. What was this location? Can you describe it for us? What
6 you're calling a canal, what was this location where you saw these two
7 bodies? Describe it physically to us.
8 A. Well, it is the pit, actually, where you bring the car so that you
9 can repair its lower part, its interior part.
10 Q. All right. And what did you do after that?
11 A. Well, they lit it with some torches, and I saw some blood on the
12 shirts, on the T shirts, of those men. And then we tried to get those men
13 out of that pit. It was very difficult because they were stiff at that
14 time. They were heavy, like wood, like rock. But we nevertheless managed
15 to get them out, wrapped them in some blankets and pulled them to that
16 park. Those two guys, those two soldiers, were with us, and they told us,
17 "Well, dig here." And we did.
18 Q. All right. Let me ask you, could you tell, was there anything
19 about these bodies or about the circumstances which led you to understand
20 what ethnic group these bodies were -- could be identified or associated
22 A. Well, seeing that they were in civilian clothes, they could only
23 be Muslims. That's what I think at least. Had they been somebody else,
24 Croats or something, we would -- it wouldn't be us who would be burying
25 them. It would be somebody else.
1 Q. Why do you say that, the last part? Why would you not be
2 burying -- if they were Croats, why would you not be burying them?
3 A. Well, we wouldn't be -- they wouldn't be buried in that place,
4 because there were mostly Serbs buried there, some Muslims, perhaps a
5 couple of Croats, in that cemetery.
6 Q. Can you tell us please approximately what time of day -- just very
7 approximately, what time of day was this happening?
8 A. You mean the burying?
9 Q. Yes, please.
10 A. That was morning, that is night, 2.00 or 3.00, roughly. I don't
12 Q. All right.
13 A. Dark.
14 Q. And can you just describe the two men, as best you can, the bodies
15 of -- these two bodies that you were ordered to move and bury?
16 A. Well, one of them was big, I mean a really big man, and it was
17 very difficult for us to carry him. As a matter of fact, we couldn't
18 carry him. We simply dragged him through the streets and gardens. (redacted)
20 Q. I want to ask you to assist us as much as you can. I don't want
21 you to say more than you can. But did the larger man resemble to you any
22 prisoner that you had met or come to know before this incident itself,
23 this time when you were taken to the bodies?
24 A. No. I don't know. I'm not sure. No, I can't say anything. I'm
25 not sure it was anyone.
1 Q. All right. Did the larger body have -- can we ask you this? Did
2 it have a similar height and build to any prisoner that you had come to
4 A. Well, if you mean Harmandzic, he was about that build and that
5 height, but that's all I can say.
6 Q. Very well. Now, where were you then -- where did you actually
7 bury them, as far as you can tell us, please?
8 A. Well, in that park, it's that park.
9 Q. This was called Liska Park?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And approximately -- my apologies, approximately how far was this
12 Liska Park from where the bodies were when you first saw them?
13 A. About 200 metres, thereabouts.
14 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, I'm sorry to
15 interrupt you but it is now quarter to eleven, and my impression is that
16 you will still take some time, so perhaps it might be better if we made a
17 break now.
18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, that's perfectly fine. I think I can
19 probably finish the direct exam somewhere between, I hope, five or ten
20 minutes, but we can break.
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Prosecutor.
22 The session is adjourned. We shall resume at ten minutes past eleven.
23 Thank you.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.45 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] We are resuming our work. Take your
2 seats, please.
3 I would like to suggest - it's now ten past eleven - that we try
4 to finish with the deposition of this witness this morning, and if
5 necessary, to work a little while longer so that we don't have to come
6 back in the afternoon. I would like to know if this is convenient for
7 everyone, and if it's also convenient for the accused. Do they mind
8 working, staying here a little longer so that we don't have to work in the
10 Mr. Krsnik?
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It's absolutely convenient,
12 Mr. Fourmy. We agree with your suggestion.
13 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you. All right. Witness N,
14 thank you. We can continue with your deposition, and we will try to
15 finish this morning.
16 Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor.
17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Fourmy.
18 Q. All right. Witness N, you then buried these two bodies in Liska
19 Park. What happened after that? Where did you go?
20 A. I went again to that garage. We were returned to that garage, and
21 I was there with the other detainees.
22 Q. And how much longer, approximately, did you stay at that garage
23 before you'd been moved perhaps somewhere else?
24 A. I was there only for that one night, and then I went back to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 Q. Now, can you tell us, at any time in the next day or two after you
2 buried these two bodies, did you have occasion to speak to any other --
3 any HVO soldier about what you had done that night?
4 A. Well, that morning when we set out to Heliodrom, the driver who
5 took us there and back asked me where we had been, and I was a little
6 surprised to hear that question. I was -- he asked me where we had buried
7 them, and I pointed with my finger, said, "There." I don't know really
8 why that man asked me that.
9 Q. And can you tell us, based on what you've told us so far, I'm only
10 drawing back, if I may, on your testimony earlier this morning, this man
11 who asked you where the bodies had been buried, who was he, if you can
12 assist us, please, in reference to someone you told us about earlier
13 today? What was his role as you knew him?
14 A. That man was the driver of that truck which collected us from
15 Heliodrom to go to labour, and I heard some stories about him selling some
16 things, but those were only stories --
17 Q. All right.
18 A. -- I heard.
19 Q. Witness, I'm not going to take you into anything else about that.
20 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's assistance, please. If the
21 witness can be shown Exhibits P14.5 and P14.13.
22 Q. Witness, let's start, please, with Exhibit 14.5. If that could be
23 placed on the ELMO.
24 Now, could you look at that picture, please. And for the moment
25 I'm not going to ask you to mark anything, but can you point to, as far as
1 you can, this location where you were taken to -- where the two bodies
2 were before they were moved to Liska Park, approximately? If you can just
3 point on the photograph itself, please.
4 A. Approximately here.
5 MR. SCOTT: All right. Now, with the usher's assistance and the
6 registrar's assistance, please, also, in terms of -- this will be probably
7 14.5/ I'm sure something, but at the moment I don't have the next sequence
8 on that. I think three perhaps.
9 THE REGISTRAR: I have 14.5/2 as the next.
10 MR. SCOTT: As the next.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As the next number. Three? Let me check.
13 MR. SCOTT: Thank you very much. If I can hand this to the usher
14 for purposes of having a marked copy, please.
15 Q. Now, Witness N, I would like you to take -- if there is a marker
16 available to you there, perhaps the usher can assist you. This location
17 you just pointed to, can you just mark that on the new version that's been
18 put in front of you and mark the location where these bodies were located
19 when you first were taken to them?
20 A. This is a new photograph. It's not that old photograph when --
21 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. Fourmy, could I approach to see --
22 just to avoid confusion? Could I see, maybe we've gotten somehow a
23 different photograph. If I could just see both photographs for a moment?
24 I thought it was the same but the witness seems to be indicating it's a
25 different photograph.
1 Q. Well, witness, I can't assist you other than to say the
2 photograph -- the second photograph you've been put -- that's been put
3 before you is the same photograph that you identified and pointed out a
4 few moments ago. It's the same photograph. So if you could show us,
5 please, approximately where these bodies were located?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Just so the record is clear, perhaps that copy can be put on the
8 ELMO, then. You've marked a circle, kind of toward the right, top centre
9 of the page.
10 MR. SCOTT: Can counsel see the marking? Seems to be no problem.
11 Q. Now, Witness N, can you please now direct your attention to
12 Exhibit 14.13? That is the next photograph. Can you tell us what that is
13 and if you recognise that in connection with the events you've told us
14 about today?
15 A. That's the building where Stela's soldiers were. That's where we
16 came to work. In fact, that's the place from which we went to work.
17 Q. All right. Can you please point -- I mean, there is, perhaps one
18 might say, three buildings -- something like three buildings in that
19 photograph, and just so the record can be clear, please, are you referring
20 to all the buildings?
21 A. [Indicates]
22 Q. Okay. So you were pointing to the one approximately in the middle
23 of the page?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes.
25 MR. SCOTT: Witness N, thank you very much.
1 Mr. Fourmy, that concludes direct examination.
2 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
3 Thank you Witness N. It's now the turn of the Defence to put
4 questions to you.
5 Mr. Krsnik? Mr. Seric? In which order do you wish to proceed?
6 Mr. Krsnik?
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. I want to introduce myself. I'm Kresimir Krsnik, counsel for the
11 accused Mladen Naletilic. I will be putting to you certain questions
12 which I will try to design in such a way as to get the briefest of
13 answers. And please make a pause before answering to facilitate the work
14 of the interpreters. Thank you for your understanding.
15 Tell me, please: You were a member of the HVO, weren't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Of which member -- of which unit of the HVO?
18 A. The 3rd Battalion.
19 Q. 3rd Battalion, the 3rd Battalion of Mostar?
20 A. Mostar, SIM -- CIM.
21 Q. CIM. Did it have a name other than that?
22 A. The 3rd Battalion.
23 Q. When you joined the HVO, did you make an oath?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did all the soldiers do so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you tell me: You defected from the East to the West Mostar
3 during the Serbian aggression, didn't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know how many people fled in the same way to the west of
7 A. Most of them.
8 Q. Including the surrounding villages and Podvelezje?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The refugees were taken care of?
11 A. I wouldn't know.
12 Q. Did refugees go into vacated Serb-owned apartments?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Those apartments were socially owned?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you got an apartment in Vranica in the same way?
17 A. Not in Vranica, not in Vranica.
18 Q. You got an apartment like that. It's not important whether it was
19 exactly there.
20 A. I got a decision allowing me to occupy an apartment.
21 Q. A temporary decision, a provisional decision; isn't it correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell me: Before 1990, when did the Muslim nation come into
25 A. I wouldn't know.
1 Q. Could it be 1970?
2 A. Could be.
3 Q. How did you declare yourself before 1970?
4 A. I don't know. I was young then, in that year.
5 Q. I know you were young. Do you know what your birth certificate
7 A. What?
8 Q. Your birth certificate, what does it say about your ethnicity?
9 A. I wouldn't know.
10 Q. What was offensive about the Jure Boban song to Muslims?
11 A. I don't know. You know better, I suppose.
12 Q. I'm sorry, but I have to ask you. What it means to me is my own
13 business. You are here to answer my questions, whether you know or you
14 don't know, yes or no. I'm not asking for anything else. I'm asking you,
15 therefore: What is offensive to Muslims about that song?
16 A. The fact that I was singing it.
17 Q. What?
18 A. That I was singing it. What was the reason for me to sing that
20 Q. I know that, but what was offensive about it?
21 A. The entire song.
22 Q. Do you know that that song came into existence in the joint army
23 of the Muslims and Croats in the Second World War?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. It's as much Muslim as it is a Croatian song?
1 A. I don't know that.
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm really taking care not to reveal
3 the witness's identity. I don't think this question requires private
5 Q. Before the war, you worked in the Soko factory?
6 A. No, I worked in the ZTP, the railway enterprise.
7 Q. Were you fired from another enterprise?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you ever disciplined or penalised for something?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You were never before a court, charged with a crime?
12 A. This is the first time that I'm in a courtroom.
13 Q. This military policeman and the civilian policeman that came to
14 pick you up, did they search your apartment?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You had no ammunition, weapon, or radio transmitter in your
18 A. I had a walkie-talkie in my apartment, but I returned it, and a
20 Q. What weapon did you return?
21 A. The one given to me by the HVO.
22 Q. The Muslims were poorly armed, weren't they? Yes, no, or you
23 don't know?
24 A. Poorly armed, I would say.
25 Q. Who was the logistics officer of the BH army?
1 A. I don't know. I was HVO then, so I don't know.
2 Q. Tell me, please, inside the Heliodrom, did you perform some
4 A. In the Busic Unit and sometimes for the Gromovi.
5 Q. That was all?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When were you arrested exactly?
8 A. On the 31st of June or the 30th of June. I don't know what day it
9 was exactly.
10 Q. Do you remember how many statements you have given to the
11 investigators of the ICTY?
12 A. I think two.
13 Q. And you always spoke the truth?
14 A. The truth, only the truth.
15 Q. In the statement you gave recently in the year 2000 you said you
16 were arrested on the 30th of July -- sorry, the 31st of July, 1993.
17 A. The 31st of June. It must be a mistake.
18 Q. I don't know if it's a mistake. You signed that statement and
19 verified it as correct.
20 A. I think it's an error.
21 Q. But even the date is not true, because in your first statement,
22 you say the 30th of June. Here you say the 31st of July.
23 A. No, no, no. 30th or the 31st of June. And I don't see that it
24 really matters, but it is June.
25 Q. Well, perhaps it doesn't matter to you, but it may matter for
1 somebody else. That is why I'm asking you, to have it explained. And how
2 could this mistake happen, because it's a long period of time. It's a
3 month. So whether you spent somewhere a month more or a month less. I
4 mean, it can't be one in the same thing.
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Scott.
6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, I apologise. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I
7 looked at the two statements and I see the 30th of June -- I see "June" in
8 both statements. So I'm not -- I think Mr. Krsnik may be mistaken or
9 perhaps he can point out the specific location.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Scott. Is it June or
11 July? I believe it is the same in English and in Croatian. So you can
12 look at the statement, and it says here the 31st of July, 1993, and that
13 is what my colleagues have too. And in the first statement, my --
14 Mr. Scott, it says the 31st of June, and I can show it to you.
15 Well, perhaps, Mr. Usher, help me with this. Will you please
16 show? Because July, I believe it is understandable and recognisable in
17 all the languages, I think.
18 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It seems that the Defence and the
19 Prosecution do not have the same text, Mr. Krsnik. Mr. Krsnik, if I
20 understand you well, you tell me that in the document that you have, it is
21 July both in Croatian and in English, is it?
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, July. Yes. "Jule" [phone]
23 means July. In Croatian there is a different word, but internationally,
24 of course, we can understand one another.
25 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, can you help us
1 resolve the situation?
2 MR. SCOTT: It appears to be in one version or another -- there is
3 a discrepancy, apparently, between the B/C/S version and the English
4 version because the English translation says "June." Thank you. And the
5 statement -- and I must say for these purposes -- of course, the original
6 statement was taken in English. That's the original statement. Then it
7 was only translated sometime after that.
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, could you please
9 establish the date when the interview took place and possibly the date
10 when the translation was done and then have it clarified whether it was
11 June or July.
12 MR. SCOTT: Of course, Mr. Fourmy. This is the -- so we're sure
13 we're talking about the same statement, this is the statement dated --
14 taken, taken on the date of interview, the 28th of February, 2000. I
15 cannot give you, without further research, the date of translation.
16 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
17 Mr. Krsnik.
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned friend. I hope
19 we've resolved it, because my colleagues have the same date, but I think
20 we have now solved the dilemma, and I won't spend any more time on it.
21 Q. I only have a few more questions for you. Tell me, in 1975,
22 weren't you tried for violent behaviour by the municipal court in Mostar?
23 Yes or no?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And in 1990 for theft?
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Krsnik. I'm sorry,
2 Mr. Krsnik, I'm not really familiar with the law of the former
3 Yugoslavia. I think there is a national legislation when people who were
4 pardoned, who were amnestied have their criminal record erased and you
5 have to think of these things. And besides, we are not here dealing with
6 the national legislations. We have international law applied here.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy, for your
8 intervention, but you understand very well why I ask this. In the
9 beginning now the witness answered in the negative; there is no amnesty.
10 It is very clearly stated and that is so in the Republic of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the legislation of the Republic of Croatia how a
12 criminal record is vacated, that is, after how many years have to elapse
13 before one's record is cleared. But at any rate, in our case, if you have
14 a criminal record, then it always remains there in the court files. Not
15 for the police, but even if you were tried 30 years ago, the court will
16 have this information, not the police. That is how it is in Croatia, and
17 I know that that is so in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is how it was in
18 the former Yugoslavia, but it doesn't really matter because this is my
19 last question and I have nothing else to ask this witness. Thank you.
20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes, you may be an expert on the
21 former Yugoslavia legislation and on various other legislations in
22 Yugoslavia. Of course, I mean, these files exist, but nevertheless, when
23 some other case comes up, persons who had been amnestied or pardoned or
24 whatever has passed, whatever the discussions, that criminal record cannot
25 disappear in inverted brackets, and one cannot refer also to the judgement
1 or to the substance. That is the only thing I wanted to draw your
2 attention to.
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Fine. Good. All
4 right. Yes. Well, I will continue, I will take this up but only after
5 the witness leaves the courtroom, not now, but I will come back to this,
6 why, how, and what, but only two sentences about all this. Thank you very
8 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.
9 Mr. Krsnik, was that the end of your cross-examination?
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] You see how experienced we are?
11 Thank you.
12 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very good. Yes, Mr. Par.
13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness N. I'm counsellor Zelimir Par, and I am one
16 of the counsel for Vinko Martinovic, Stela.
17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Before I proceed with my
18 cross-examination, I should like the usher to put a photograph on the
19 ELMO. This photograph doesn't have a number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Is it the Prosecutor's exhibit?
21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We were given it by the Prosecution, but
22 it has no number. It simply has not been marked. And perhaps we won't
23 need it either.
24 MR. SCOTT: I'm only trying to assist. I think Mr. Par is
25 absolutely right, but I think that's been corrected, and I think that same
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 document does now have a number and I'm happy to provide that.
2 THE REGISTRAR: What's the number?
3 MR. SCOTT: It's P48. It should be behind tab 48 but the sticker
4 had not -- there was ... Mr. Par. It's this? Yes.
5 MR. PAR: Yes, thank you.
6 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
7 Yes, Mr. Par.
8 MR. PAR:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness N, will you please take a look at this
10 photograph and tell me if you know where this man's grave is?
11 A. I don't.
12 Q. Did you bury this man personally?
13 A. I don't know. I can't say. I don't know.
14 Q. And what's the name of this man?
15 A. I think that this is Harmandzic.
16 Q. Are you sure? When is the last time that you saw him?
17 A. Well, it was at the Heliodrom.
18 Q. Oh, I see, Heliodrom. And the last time you saw him at Heliodrom,
19 what did he look like?
20 A. Well, I don't know, like everybody else.
21 Q. Let's try to describe him. How tall was he?
22 A. About 190, perhaps more. I wouldn't really know.
23 Q. And age? You said something?
24 A. Well, about 50, 60, I don't know. Perhaps he was younger and
25 looked older. I don't know.
1 Q. Can you say how tall am I?
2 A. You? Well, you could be around 190.
3 Q. And how old am I do you think?
4 A. Around 50?
5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] For the record, I'm 182 centimetres tall
6 and I am 42 -- 47.
7 Q. So we can finish this part about Harmandzic because it drags
8 through this examination. I simply wanted to have it in the clear whether
9 you buried him or not and you said you didn't.
10 A. No. I didn't say I didn't. I said I didn't know.
11 Q. Well, come on. I asked you and I can repeat it.
12 A. No. What I said was that I didn't know whom I had buried.
13 Q. We'll come to that. We'll come to that. I asked you - and I'm
14 not trying to avoid these questions - if you buried Harmandzic. Did you
15 or did you not? Can you give me a positive answer?
16 A. That is -- if you mean if I'm sure that it was he, no, I'm not
17 sure that it was he.
18 Q. Right. Now, let's see who is it that you buried. What did
19 Harmandzic look like in the prison? Had he lost weight? What did --
20 A. Well, I suppose so. I didn't know the man before that. I didn't
21 know the man before the prison, so I can't say.
22 Q. No. But I'm asking you in prison. How -- what was his weight?
23 A. I don't know. He could have had 100, I don't know, or 80.
24 Q. But did he lose weight in the prison?
25 A. Well, I suppose he did. How can I know? I mean, I don't know the
2 Q. Please. You say that there were two bodies there.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you -- will you tell us how long -- how old those corpses
5 were? I mean, not corpses but how old could those men be?
6 A. Well, 50s, 60s. And the younger one could be 25, 30.
7 Q. Did you look at the faces?
8 A. No, just cursorily. Just when the torch light went over them, I
9 just saw that one of them was bigger and one of them was smaller, and I'm
10 giving you their age very approximately.
11 Q. You say that you assumed they were Muslims. That was your
13 A. No, no, that was I assumed. I'm not sure. No, no, no. It's my
15 Q. But could they have been Serbs?
16 A. Yes, of course. Yes, of course.
17 Q. Could they have been Croats?
18 A. Well, yes, of course, except that they were not Croats, I mean in
19 civilian clothes. At least that's what I think.
20 Q. And you buried them with those blankets, that is?
21 A. Yes, yes, yes. We wrapped them in those blankets, and we buried
22 them. I can't really remember with or without those blankets. I'm not
23 quite sure.
24 Q. Now, tell me did you ever see the place where you buried them
25 after the war?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. You didn't?
3 A. No, I saw the place.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, interpreter's correction. "I did see
5 the place."
6 Q. And from that place, were those bodies exhumed, were those bodies
7 taken out?
8 A. I can't say that.
9 Q. You don't know?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. But at the time of exhumations at the Liska, did you go to Liska
12 at that time?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 Q. But in a statement you mentioned that you went and looked?
15 A. Well, I looked at that place, but as far as I could see, I don't
16 think it had been -- had any work been done there.
17 Q. Whatever I ask you, it's either "I don't know" or "I can't" or
18 "I'm guessing." Could you please try to be more definite? If you know
19 something, tell us. If you don't, say so. Do you know if that -- if
20 anybody was taken from that place where you buried them?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Were you at Liska?
23 MR. SCOTT: I apologise - and I've rarely interrupted Mr. Par in
24 particular - but I think the witness has now answered this question at
25 least three or four times. He doesn't know.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, indeed, perhaps you could
2 move on. And please also mind the break between question and answer.
3 Thank you.
4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Fourmy. Yes. I accept
5 this objection of my learned friend.
6 Q. Maybe now we could move on to the beginning of that incident. You
7 say that you were in a garage. So you were kept in this garage and there
8 was a car right next to this garage. Which vehicle, what brand was it?
9 What make was it?
10 A. I wouldn't know.
11 Q. But was it a passenger car or a truck or something?
12 THE INTERPRETER: We could not understand the witness's answer.
13 Q. So -- and who removed the car from the door so you that could come
15 A. Well, somebody did. I don't know.
16 Q. But do you know whether the engine was switched on or --
17 A. No, there was a slight slope. The garage was behind it. The car
18 was in front. And there was a slope, a descending slope, towards the
20 Q. But was the engine switched on to remove it from there?
21 A. Well, they couldn't push it away.
22 Q. And you said that another one of the detainees came out with you
23 and that you -- and that you knew the name only of only one of the
24 detainees who came out with you on that occasion?
25 A. That's right.
1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Could we go into private session for a
2 moment so that we can check that name?
3 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. PAR:
3 Q. [Interpretation] And only very briefly, having to do with the time
4 when it happened, my learned friend asked you when was it that you were
5 brought to Heliodrom. Do you have any certificate from Heliodrom as to
6 the period of time of your detention there, a document which would show
7 when was that?
8 A. I do have a certificate but not the date, from, until, but on the
9 day when the Red Cross came there, and I believe we were registered as of
10 that date, when the Red Cross came.
11 Q. But did you tell the Red Cross on that occasion when it was that
12 you had been brought to Keraterm?
13 A. Well, I suppose I did, but they wrote down whatever -- when they
15 Q. Do you have the date?
16 A. No, no, no, I don't.
17 Q. Tell me: Did you ever communicate with anyone, any member of
18 Harmandzic's family?
19 A. No, I didn't. No, no, I didn't.
20 Q. Did any of his relatives try to establish contact with you and ask
21 you something about it, about the incident?
22 A. No.
23 Q. When was it -- when were you asked about Harmandzic the first time
24 and how did it come about? How did his name crop up and who associated
25 Harmandzic with these events? Who asked you that?
1 A. What do I know? Somebody. Somebody did. I don't really know who
2 it was.
3 Q. But did you start talking about him?
4 A. No, no, no, no, no.
5 Q. You were asked about that?
6 A. No, no, no. Somebody asked me about him.
7 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid
8 you are too fast. At least for me it is much too fast. And if you allow
9 me, I'd really like to be sure that we are indeed talking about somebody
10 Harmandzic and not one Haramandzic, because at times I hear "Harmandzic"
11 and at times I hear "Haramandzic." So will you please try to establish
13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] It is Haramandzic. Or at least that's
14 the name we were given.
15 Q. So I asked you if you were the first one who started talking about
16 him or were you asked about him?
17 A. No, somebody asked me about that.
18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. Fourmy, I have no further questions,
19 thank you.
20 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Par.
21 Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions in redirect?
22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Fourmy, no, I don't. If it will assist - and if
23 it's disputed, I guess we will hear more about it - but I believe the
24 correct spelling of this name that's come up just now again is
25 H-a-r-m-a-n-d-z, with a diacritic, -i-c with a diacritic.
1 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor. That was
2 really the drift of my question.
3 Mr. Par, is that the person that you referred to?
4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the man. Thank you.
5 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, do you have to add
7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but with your leave, Mr.
8 Par cross-examined this witness and I thought -- I want him to point out
9 that we agree with the name, but the Defence does not know what the man
10 looked like or what he looks like today.
11 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] It's in the transcript, Mr. Seric.
12 Thank you, Witness N. Your deposition has come to a close. Thank
13 you very much for your -- for the information which you contributed. This
14 is information for the Tribunal because, as you know, I'm here merely as a
15 presiding officer.
16 You will now be able to leave the courtroom, but please wait for
17 the usher to bring the blinds down and to help you leave. Thank you once
18 again for having come to the Tribunal, and I wish you a happy return to
19 your country of residence. Thank you. Good-bye.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. I believe we have come to
22 an end of these 15 depositions, 15-ish both with regard to the number of
23 depositions, and 15 is the date that we had envisioned for these
25 As you know, this is the first time that the depositions were made
1 in this manner at the seat of the Tribunal. I believe that this
2 experience will prove very instructive, very enriching. I believe it was
3 such for you, and it was definitely such for me.
4 I wish to thank you all for allowing me to have this experience.
5 Of course, the Prosecution -- I do not have in mind only the Prosecution
6 and Defence but also the accused. I believe everybody has noted perfect
7 behaviour, and especially the hours that we use here did not give rise to
8 any complaint from any side. I appreciate it highly, and I am positive
9 that the Judges will also appreciate highly your readiness to work, your
10 willingness to work here in this manner.
11 In the long-run, even though I'm speaking now only about this
12 case, but this manner of making depositions will perhaps offer the parties
13 the possibility to go through this case once again, to re-examine the case
14 either from the point of view of the substance; that is, perhaps they
15 might try to take note to sum up the matter that we heard during this
16 fortnight and to draw certain conclusions from that, to take stock of the
17 information that was taken. I mean, certain dates, certain places,
18 certain names, even a limited -- of a limited scope perhaps could lead to
19 some understanding between the parties, to some agreement which could be
20 formalised in writing for the benefit of the Judges, even on some minor
21 facts. I do not think there is anything because -- in what I am
22 proposing. This is a very humble and a very modest suggestion.
23 Needless to say, I am not talking about the recognition of this or
24 that fact which could -- which could affect the possibility of one or the
25 other accused. At least that is not something that one would wanted to
1 have done. It is only with regard to every -- to every one of the
2 witnesses or all of these witnesses together or a small identifiable group
3 of witnesses, because the Prosecutor had evidently organised the witnesses
4 in a very clear manner as to the subject of their depositions, and,
5 therefore, perhaps it might be possible, therefore, to arrive at an
6 agreement with regard to the name of a village, the place where a
7 particular river was crossed or a place where some people were detained or
8 the conditions, the general conditions, of detention.
9 These are some examples, for instance, but of course, it is up to
10 you to consider these matters. I believe that this is an important stage
11 in the discussions, in the deliberations between the parties, and if such
12 an agreement were reached, it could help to expedite significantly the
14 Another advantage for me from these depositions, at least to me, I
15 think something that is important, and that is to make some progress, to
16 make some headway with regard to exhibits. I believe that some of the
17 exhibits have already been presented, were discussed here, and my
18 impression is that insofar of some of them, they will not be contested,
19 and others may have been tendered and may be contested. But it will be
20 important for the Judges to have a signed -- a written document signed by
21 the parties, with a list of exhibits tendered so far which will not be
22 challenged and to have another list of those exhibits which are being
23 challenged so that the Judges can, as quickly as they decided to indicate
24 to the parties which are the exhibits which -- which they will consider as
25 admitted, and I think this will facilitate to a great extent your future
2 As for the trial itself, now, right at this moment, a decision is
3 about to be taken to designate the Chamber which will hear this case.
4 Following your comments yesterday, when you tried to elicit some
5 information but I couldn't be more precise, and I cannot do it now, but
6 you will hear it in time, you will learn it shortly about the Chamber, it
7 will not be the Chamber -- the first Trial Chamber with its present
9 The 10th of September was confirmed yesterday towards the end of
10 the day. You will be receiving, I believe next week, the confirmation,
11 the official confirmation, of the date of the beginning of the trial.
12 Therefore, Mr. Prosecutor, I now have to return to you and to say
13 that now you must definitely finalise the list of witnesses for the first
14 days of the trial and of course the definitive list of the witnesses that
15 you will be calling during the case in-chief, as we say in French.
16 There -- I believe this is all that I could tell you today.
17 However, I would not want to adjourn without repeating my thanks to
18 everybody. One has to say that the first steps which we have made with
19 these depositions may lead to some contacts which are quite lively. I
20 think that this week and especially these last days have shown that we
21 were working in a -- in a rather changed and a rather different atmosphere
22 that these depositions were made, and in this, I see an evidence that this
23 procedure -- because I'm not forgetting that in the beginning, the Defence
24 was, too, opposed to this, but when the time came -- if you agree, I'd be
25 happy to say that this -- that what we did now was -- will benefit, will
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and the English transcripts.
1 help, will contribute to a fair and expedient trial, and for this
2 contribution I should like to thank everybody.
3 I also want to thank all those who are around us. I think our
4 thanks are never enough to people who had -- I'd like thank the
5 interpreters; the technical people, the prowess with which they arranged
6 their cameras and people who are here; our court reporters; the young men
7 of the security, whose discreet presence nevertheless allows us to ensure
8 the security of both the courtroom and the accused, if such a need arose
9 at any moment; and the never-ceasing attention of the usher and
10 Madam Registrar.
11 Believe me, these are not empty words of gratitude. I am quite
12 aware, and I think that many other people in this Tribunal will be aware
13 of the fact that during two weeks, we could hear 16 witnesses, and I
14 believe this is an absolute record. And that was only because we had
15 longer hours and yet nobody at no moment complained, ever.
16 I therefore do not know whether either of the parties wishes to
17 say something, but as far as I am concerned, I am finishing, and once
18 again, with these words of gratitude addressed to all of you. Thank you.
19 Mr. Naletilic, did you want to say something?
20 THE INTERPRETER: We could not hear the answer. I'm sorry.
21 MR. FOURMY: [Interpretation] Very well. This session is
22 adjourned. The trial should begin on the 10th of September. Thank you.
23 --- Whereupon the Depositions Hearing adjourned
24 at 12.09 p.m.