Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1990

1 Wednesday, 12 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: As we all know, yesterday terrible incidents happened

7 in the United States. Thousands of innocent civilians from various

8 countries lost their lives. This Trial Chamber would like to express its

9 deep condolences and ask everybody in this room to stand up in silence for

10 a moment.

11 Please be seated.

12 Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. Case

14 Number IT-98-34-T.

15 JUDGE LIU: Okay, Mr. Krsnik, your cross-examination. Yesterday

16 you promised me that today's cross-examination would be more concise and

17 to the point.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. As you

19 see, I have engaged in thorough preparations, and I hope I have been

20 successful. In spite of the events that occurred yesterday, I worked all

21 night in an effort to be as concise as possible in my cross-examination

22 today, and I hope I will be successful.

23 WITNESS: JAN VAN HECKE [Resumed]

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Van Hecke. When did you become an investigator

Page 1991

1 for the Naletilic case?

2 A. I became an investigator for the Naletilic case in March of '97.

3 Q. Were you a head of the investigating team or just an investigator?

4 A. I was team leader of the investigation team, yes.

5 Q. How many people were there in your team?

6 A. I can give you a short overview on that. I started on my own with

7 two legal advisors --

8 Q. No, that won't be necessary, thank you. I was just asking for the

9 number. Did you have one, two, five, ten team members?

10 A. Right at the very beginning, there were only a few people.

11 Q. And later?

12 A. Well, the composition of the team changed by people leaving and

13 other people coming in. But during the investigation up to, let's say,

14 mid of '98, the second half of '98, it was a very small team with only,

15 let's say, five, six people max.

16 Q. Did you have support from the Legal Department and all the other

17 departments that could provide assistance to you?

18 A. Of course.

19 Q. How long did the investigation into the Naletilic case last?

20 A. As I said, the investigation started in March of '97, to reach an

21 indictment in December of '98.

22 Q. And who was in charge of the investigations after '98?

23 A. I was still in charge of the team that investigated Mr. Naletilic.

24 Q. Didn't you take statements in 1998 and '99 and in 2000 and in

25 2001?

Page 1992

1 A. Yes, we did.

2 Q. So would you agree with me that the investigation did not end in

3 1998, as you said a moment ago?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. I'm trying to be as concise as possible, so, you see, I have to

6 ask you a number of questions to learn something I could have learned at

7 the very beginning. It was your task to establish all the facts against

8 my client?

9 A. Yes, in coordination with the legal advisor of the team, of

10 course.

11 Q. Yes. But would you agree with me that your task was to establish

12 the facts and the evidence that would go against my client?

13 A. Of course.

14 Q. Did you have any assistance on the ground? I have in mind

15 Jablanica, Sovici, Doljani, Mostar, Konjic, Central Bosnia, Sarajevo,

16 people on the ground.

17 A. It happened occasionally that somebody from the Sarajevo field

18 office assisted us in interviewing somebody for the team.

19 Q. And how did you find the witnesses?

20 A. There are different ways of finding witnesses. We have a lot of

21 documents in-house, in the OTP, on which we could do analyses to find

22 witnesses.

23 Q. That was not my question. My question is a very simple and

24 precise one. How did you reach your witnesses? I don't know what

25 ethnicity they may be.

Page 1993

1 A. We did it through the local authorities.

2 Q. Which local authorities?

3 A. In -- we sent a request to Sarajevo to locate witnesses for us,

4 and then people were lined up to be interviewed by us.

5 Q. And who would bring those witnesses to you to be interviewed?

6 A. That would, again, be the local authorities.

7 Q. Well, let us take Doljani as an example. Your witnesses were

8 Muslims, weren't they?

9 A. Yes, they were, mainly. I would say yes.

10 Q. And so you would go to Sovici for the first time, shall we say, in

11 1997, Doljani or Sovici?

12 A. The first time Doljani, Sovici.

13 Q. I think that is irrelevant. I'm just speaking hypothetically.

14 You come to a place for the first time. You don't know anyone there. And

15 then you would contact who, in Jablanica or Doljani? Who would introduce

16 you to the witnesses and tell you these are witnesses so and so and they

17 will testify to the following facts?

18 A. In the first place, we wouldn't find witnesses in Sovici and

19 Doljani because they are not living there any more. That's the first part

20 of an answer. The second thing is that local authorities would bring us

21 to the people or bring the people to us.

22 Q. There are people living in Sovici and Doljani; there are Muslims

23 living in Sovici and Doljani who have been living since '97 to the present

24 day. Some may not be living there, but not all of them have left.

25 A. I would say not some, but the majority is not living in Sovici.

Page 1994

1 Q. I do not wish to polemicise with you. This is a

2 cross-examination, so please answer my questions.

3 Regardless of where they may be living, who brought those

4 witnesses to you, the witnesses who testified about events in Sovici and

5 Doljani, and where did you interview them?

6 A. Again, it was the local authorities who brought them to us, and we

7 would interview them in an office or in Sarajevo in our own office, or in

8 an office provided to us by the local authorities in Mostar, or eventually

9 even in the house of the witness, let's say in Jablanica.

10 Q. For this Tribunal and for this Trial Chamber, the term "local

11 authority" is too broad a term. So I would like you to tell us, if you

12 know, rather than me saying it, that the local authorities consist of many

13 segments. So I'm asking you for the last time, do you know exactly who

14 brought those witnesses to you? Would you agree with me that it was the

15 military police, the secret police, the public security officers? Were

16 they the people who brought those witnesses to you?

17 A. It was mainly done by the Agency for Information and Documentation

18 and the MUP.

19 Q. The Agency for Information and Documentation is a name for the

20 secret Muslim police, is it not?

21 A. It is.

22 Q. And they would bring those witnesses to you and prepare the

23 witnesses for you?

24 A. No, they brought the witnesses to me. If they prepared them, I

25 don't know.

Page 1995

1 Q. Did you discover in your investigations that they had mostly given

2 prior statements to that same agency?

3 A. There were certainly a large number of people that had given

4 previous statements, yes.

5 Q. As the team leader, did that cooperation continue uninterrupted

6 with all these organisations that we have listed?

7 A. I would say yes.

8 Q. For example, would they assist you, the investigators, in checking

9 out witnesses generally?

10 A. Can you clarify this question a bit, please?

11 Q. If you should need some aid in your investigations, or perhaps

12 even during trial, you would always address them for assistance, would you

13 not?

14 A. We would address them to locate witnesses, yes.

15 Q. Would you agree with me in saying that neither the investigators,

16 nor the entire OTP, that no one from these institutions originates from

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18 A. No, except maybe for the single translator or something.

19 Q. And they have never lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

20 A. I assume not.

21 Q. Would it be right to say that without the assistance of these

22 mentioned organisations, you would not have been able to work?

23 A. I think that's too strong of a statement. It would be much more

24 difficult, that's for sure.

25 Q. Would you agree with me that these were exclusively Muslims?

Page 1996

1 A. I would think so.

2 Q. But your task was not to establish the objectivity of the

3 evidence, but only the evidence that would charge the accused?

4 A. No, that's completely untrue.

5 Q. A moment ago, I asked you whether your task was to find

6 exclusively the arguments in favour of guilt, and you said yes. And why

7 are you now saying no?

8 A. No, I did not. We can go to the transcript, I don't know, maybe,

9 but...

10 Q. My memory is very good, but I don't think we have to go back to

11 that. I will continue with my questions.

12 You will see why I am asking you that question. Did you speak to

13 a single Croat in Sovici and Doljani?

14 A. There are investigations done within the Tribunal covering other

15 cases including Muslim perpetrators.

16 Q. That was not my question, Mr. Van Hecke. You're not an ordinary

17 witness. I shouldn't be having trouble with you.

18 I asked you very clearly: In your investigation in Doljani and

19 Sovici, did you or members of your team within the framework of the

20 Naletilic case speak to Croats? Did you hear the views of the other

21 parties? That was my question.

22 A. We made a request to talk to people, but we never got an answer to

23 that. So, no.

24 Q. Would you agree with me in saying that at the time you only heard

25 one side of the story?

Page 1997

1 A. We always try to do our investigation two-sided.

2 Q. Again, you haven't answered my question. In the investigation of

3 which you were the team leader and it had to do with Doljani and Sovici,

4 in view of the fact that, as you said, the Croats refused to talk to you,

5 that means that you only heard one side, one side of the story?

6 A. We mainly heard one side of the story, yes, supported by other

7 evidence.

8 Q. And the Prosecution has the documents of only one side, and that

9 is how it has been informed of only one side?

10 A. That's not completely correct.

11 Q. I'm not asking you for your opinion; I'm asking you for Sovici and

12 Doljani pursuant to your answers. And I think my questions are quite

13 logical ones.

14 A. You asked me if we had only documents from one side. I have to

15 say no. We have documents from two sides, as shown yesterday in my

16 testimony.

17 Q. That was not what I asked you. We'll come to the documents

18 later.

19 I asked you nicely. The materials about your investigation, the

20 material that you collected as the team leader and brought to the Office

21 of the Prosecutor, were materials obtained from one side only about

22 Doljani and Sovici?

23 A. Well, my answer stays the same. I think we heard it from two

24 sides, one way or the other.

25 Q. And the witnesses?

Page 1998

1 A. The witnesses mainly came from one side.

2 Q. What would be the percentage share of others as compared to the

3 Muslims?

4 A. Well, we spoke with people who were in Mr. Naletilic's unit, so

5 they are from the other side, I assume.

6 Q. Could you give me at least one name, first and last name, of a

7 Croat you spoke to about the events in Sovici and Doljani?

8 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. STRINGER: I'm not objecting to the question itself. But if

11 we're going to name persons who may have spoken to the Prosecutor, I would

12 suggest that we do this in private session.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My learned colleague, Mr. Stringer,

15 you heard my question. I was asking for the name of a Croat, at least a

16 single Croatian name, any Croat that your investigation team leader spoke

17 to. Is that something secret? Is that something confidential? Because

18 in your documents, I don't have a single Croat as a witness about Sovici

19 and Doljani and generally, so I'm surprised by your concern for Croats as

20 witnesses.

21 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the Office of the Prosecutor tries

22 to protect the identities of all persons that talk to us, regardless of

23 what group they come from. The situation in this region of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a region in which certainly there's a real risk to

25 all persons who speak to the Office of the Prosecutor, whether Muslim or

Page 1999

1 Croat. Again, I don't object to the question itself. If we're going to

2 start naming names, I just ask that we do it in private session before we

3 name persons publicly who have not had any warning or ability to give us

4 their views in terms of protective measures which might be requested on

5 their behalf.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I know that sometimes I go a bit far

8 in my questions, and I beg Your Honours to forgive me. But my sole desire

9 is to provide the best possible defence for my client. Actually, my wish

10 is to inform this Trial Chamber fully of everything the Defence knows, and

11 I will not conceal anything from you. There is a saying in Croatian that

12 the Court sees, hears, and knows everything.

13 And what Mr. Stringer has said is not correct. The Office of the

14 Prosecutor keeps creating an atmosphere of fear, violence, danger. I

15 don't know where my learned friend gets this information from. Did he

16 live there, to be so well informed? Those of us who have lived there know

17 that that is not true.

18 Let me respond with a counter-question: Does he know of a single

19 witness who appeared in this Tribunal and was hurt in any way? Let him

20 name a single witness in this past seven-year period who suffered

21 consequences because of appearing in the Tribunal.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, you know, the witness might not know which ones

23 are under protective measures or not, so during the cross-examinations or

24 direct examinations, he might slip his tongue on such names. So out of

25 the consideration of the safety of the witnesses, if you're going to ask

Page 2000

1 for some names, my suggestion is that both parties could request this

2 Trial Chamber to go into the private session, maybe just for a few

3 minutes. I don't think that will jeopardise your rights.

4 So we are in private session.

5 [Private session]

6 (redacted)

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15 (redacted)

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18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Who told you -- of course I don't have all those documents and I

23 don't have the resources available that you have. We all remember the

24 picture of Doljani, and you said that one of the buildings was the

25 headquarters of the Convicts' Battalion. Are you quite sure of that? Are

Page 2001

1 you asserting that with certainty?

2 A. Well, then, of course, I have to rely on what witnesses told us.

3 I wasn't there at that moment.

4 Q. Of course. And when Mr. Stringer interviewed you, you told this

5 Trial Chamber a lot of things as if they were facts. You didn't tell us

6 whether they were from your own personal knowledge or from hearsay

7 evidence, because after all, you're a professional man and a man of

8 integrity, you're not testifying before a Tribunal for the first time. So

9 was this to give an impression or was this something that you were

10 asserting? And, after all, you took the solemn declaration, so there's no

11 need for me to caution you about all these things.

12 A. Of course not. My main points were to lay out the geographical

13 layout, let's say, for what is relevant to the indictment, certainly to

14 learn the Judges how the situation was or how the layout was

15 geographically, I would say, pointing out places of relevance in light of

16 what will be further -- be mentioned by witnesses further in the trial, I

17 assume.

18 Q. But you don't know that. You cannot anticipate what the witnesses

19 are going to say. At least, I hope.

20 A. No.

21 Q. Right. But at the same time, when you try to draw a picture of

22 the geographic location and everything for Their Honours, you said, "This

23 is the headquarters of the Convicts' Battalion, this is the residence,

24 this is this, this is that," and I'm asking you: How do you know it? Can

25 you affirm under oath that that is indeed so?

Page 2002

1 A. Well, as I said just before, I know that because witnesses told

2 me. That's how I know it.

3 Q. And you trust those witnesses and did not check the other side,

4 and you have an absolute trust in them; is that it?

5 A. Well, in the witnesses included were people who were in

6 Mr. Naletilic's unit, so I think they could identify their own

7 headquarters. So that's corroboration from two sides, I would say.

8 Q. With how many men from that unit did you talk?

9 A. Forgive me for not giving an exact quote, but I estimate four or

10 five.

11 Q. Oh, I see. It's those who were prisoners in Austria, Germany and

12 around whose material we've got here, whose documents we've got here?

13 A. It was not only people who were in prison.

14 Q. Oh, I see, now I see. I'm looking for some photographs, and I

15 need your help because, you know, the Defence doesn't have all the

16 resources at its disposal to prepare for these things like that. But you

17 know what Tuta's house looked like, what you told us was Tuta's house, and

18 that witnesses told you that -- well, it wasn't Clinton exactly who lived

19 there, because we all know that, but that for the residence, that Franjo

20 Tudjman has been born there and all the Muslim -- that Franjo Tudjman had

21 been born there and had the Muslim witnesses told you that, would you have

22 also given that kind of evidence to the OTP?

23 A. Well, again I was here to give the geographical overview of the

24 case. I think you even objected when I wanted to talk about what

25 witnesses said to me before.

Page 2003

1 Q. Had you testified like that, I wouldn't be cross-examining you now

2 at all, because I think it is very important for the Chamber to learn also

3 about the geographical locations and all the other things that have to be

4 borne in mind. But that is not how you testified, and that is the

5 problem. And that is why I'm subjecting you to this cross-examination.

6 Did you ever see any documents concerning the ownership of the

7 house that you called "Tuta's house"?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 Q. Where; who gave them to you?

10 A. We got them from the cadastre, like it's called, or the

11 registration for land ownership in Siroki Brijeg.

12 JUDGE LIU: Excuse me. Judge Clark wanted to make an

13 intervention.

14 JUDGE CLARK: I was wondering, Mr. Krsnik, what's the relevance of

15 all this? I understand that you're disputing much of the case, if not all

16 of the case, but what is the relevance of cross-examining this witness for

17 five minutes as to the ownership of your client's house? Is it disputed

18 that the house that we saw with the swimming pool is Mr. Naletilic's

19 house?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That, too, among other things, among

21 other things.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Will you put it directly to this witness, then, that

23 this is not Mr. Naletilic's house and his information is incorrect. Just

24 go straight at it.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for your

Page 2004

1 assistance. I may have made a mistake here, because I do not have an

2 ordinary witness before me. He is a professional investigator and

3 somebody who is on the staff of this Tribunal.

4 JUDGE CLARK: What you want to do in cross-examination to make it

5 relevant is you say to the witness that you disagree with what he says and

6 that you will be calling evidence to show that this is not Mr. Naletilic's

7 house, so that we all know that you are trying to discredit a witness.

8 And then we move on, because, with respect, he's only our very first

9 witness.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will do

11 that, and I shall try to ask some shorter questions.

12 Q. A document showing that my client was the owner of that house, you

13 found that in the cadastre office?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know where ownership documents in Bosnia-Herzegovina are

16 kept?

17 A. I assume it's in the cadastre, like it's called.

18 Q. The ownership records, the cadastre records in the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, are in the cadastre Department of the Court, that is,

20 of all the Municipal Courts. All the Municipal Courts hold such records.

21 Are you aware of that or are you not aware of that? Yes or no.

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you have the excerpt, the document from the cadastre records,

24 which is the only proof of ownership?

25 A. We have the document from the cadastre, yes.

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Page 2006

1 Q. But that is not the proof of ownership in the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

3 A. Well, that's something I can't judge about.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you know, the purpose of the

5 cross-examination is to be within the scope of the direct examinations. I

6 don't think this witness is entitled to know anything in

7 that particular place. So would you please confine your question within

8 such a limit.

9 Thank you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not really want to

11 resist on this, but I remember all the answers of this witness. And we

12 saw the helicopter images of that house at the residence. They mentioned

13 all that, and this witness confirmed that. So of course, I have to check

14 that in the cross-examination, and this doesn't go beyond direct

15 examination.

16 Yes, thank you, in any event.

17 Q. Would you agree with me that you do not have any proof regarding

18 the ownership of that house, that is, no documents and no witnesses?

19 A. Well, I don't agree, seeing as I don't know, as you said before,

20 if it is kept in the Court or the cadastre. For me, the cadastre was a

21 valid document to prove ownership.

22 Q. Well, my final question -- and I won't ask you any more questions

23 about this house; we shall go back to it -- which one of the witnesses

24 told you that it was Tuta's house? I'm not asking you for a name, in view

25 of the private session. I am talking, was it people from Siroki Brijeg,

Page 2007

1 from Mostar, from Sovici, from Doljani? Where did you get this

2 information from?

3 A. Several people from different sides, sir.

4 Q. Did you learn in your investigation what that area was called,

5 what that neighbourhood with this alleged Tuta's residence is called?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And?

8 A. Cigansko Brdo.

9 Q. And in the course of your investigation, did you learn what that

10 hill was called, what that area was called? Cigansko Brdo is a mini

11 municipality, let's say. But how is that whole area called?

12 A. The municipality, it's within the municipality of Siroki Brijeg.

13 Q. I said it was a mini municipality, something like a neighbourhood

14 community.

15 Have you heard of the name Kravice?

16 A. It doesn't ring a bell, no.

17 Q. In the course of your investigation, did you learn that that whole

18 hill was owned by the Naletilic family for centuries? Did you learn that

19 from real estate record or from cadastre record?

20 A. No, we looked straight to the villa and, let's say, the

21 surroundings of the villa or the house.

22 Q. Do you know how many members does the Naletilic family have?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you establish in your investigation how many people have the

25 nickname "Tuta" in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 2008

1 A. No, that would go a bit beyond our investigation, I think.

2 Q. During your exhaustive investigation, you established that there

3 was a high-ranking officer in the HVO whose last name was Naletilic?

4 A. I've heard the name Naletilic during the investigation. That's

5 for sure.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honours. Just a

7 moment.

8 Now, I really don't know, perhaps it would take too long, but I

9 would like to ask the usher, because we do have all those documents. But

10 so as not to have to go through all of them, I would merely like to ask

11 the witness to look at this document and tell us if he recognises it,

12 which he will do undoubtedly. And after that, I will have some short

13 questions for him regarding the document precisely having to do with the

14 surname Naletilic.

15 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, may I ask to know which

16 document or exhibit number we are working off of, please?

17 JUDGE LIU: Sure.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Mr. Stringer, but

19 I don't have it. (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think if the witness is going to

24 be shown the document, we ought to have at least have an opportunity to

25 take a look at it, see what it is. It may be among our exhibits; it may

Page 2009

1 not be, if it was attached to a witness statement.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But it's your document. You gave it

3 to us.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I think Mr. Stringer has raised a very

5 legitimate issue on this matter. Not only for the Prosecution, the

6 Judges are entitled to know what kind of documents it is, where we can

7 find it so that we could know what is your question.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours, this is

9 how things become complicated. I cannot give you my questions in

10 advance. I only wanted to use it just as my aid, and now look where we

11 are. This is a very simple question. This is a statement that the

12 Prosecution gave me, and the Prosecution has it. I only took it out. And

13 as soon as the witness sees it -- after all, he conducted this

14 investigation, everybody knows. So all I want is for the witness to see

15 it, and then I will ask my question.

16 JUDGE LIU: Could you give us the numbers or in which binders this

17 document appeared?

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President -- excuse me, Mr. Krsnik. I

19 apologise.

20 Mr. President, could we briefly move into private session? I

21 apologise. But there is one point which I would like to express, and it

22 requires me to go into private session.

23 JUDGE LIU: Okay, we will move to the private session.

24 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE LIU: And meanwhile Judge Diarra has an intervention to

18 make. Yes.

19 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] (redacted)

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25 JUDGE LIU: I think this conversation touches upon some sensitive

Page 2018

1 names and information. If we want to continue, we have to go back to the

2 private session.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, let me answer your

4 question.

5 JUDGE LIU: Wait, wait. Now we are in private session.

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24 [Open session]

25 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session. Yes.

Page 2023

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Let me

2 repeat my question.

3 Q. Until 1974, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was populated

4 by only two nations, the Serbs and Croats; is that true or not?

5 A. I looked through things that happened the 1990s and I looked at

6 the census from 1991, where I see the people -- the population of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina divided into Croats, Serbs, Muslims, Yugoslavs and

8 others.

9 Q. Do you know when the Muslims were recognised as a nation in

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in Yugoslavia?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Do you know which three nations, according to the Constitution,

13 are equal in Bosnia-Herzegovina and which constitute the Republic of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina according to the 1974 Constitution?

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, do you think this question is

16 relevant to this witness?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Absolutely relevant, and I will

18 explain why. Because as of 1974, the three constituent nations of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina are Serbs, Croats and Muslims, and they participate in

20 government on an equal footing. And I would like, through this witness

21 and through my own witnesses, to contest the constitutional legality of

22 the Bosnia government, which will be crucial for this case. And, you see,

23 the witness doesn't appear to know much about that because, you see, the

24 decision of the Constitutional Court denying the legality of the Croatian

25 Republic was not a legal institution, and that is what I wanted to explain

Page 2024

1 to you. But I just wanted to check whether the witness has any knowledge

2 about these things.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may check about his knowledge, but I don't

4 think this witness is the right person for you to ask this kind of

5 question. I just want you to bear in mind you can put only relevant

6 questions to this witness, since you are not examining this witness but

7 you are doing the cross-examination.

8 Yes, you may proceed.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Is it true that you have no direct evidence or personal knowledge

11 of the source of documents, who issued them, where they were issued, who

12 has possession of them now, and who wrote them; you personally have no

13 knowledge about that, is that right?

14 A. Of course. In that period, I wasn't there. That's clear.

15 Q. Of course Tuta never signed anything in your presence; is that

16 right?

17 A. No, he didn't.

18 Q. Would you agree with me, then, that you are not in a position to

19 compare signatures, because there were some questions from the Prosecution

20 whether this signature reminds you of a signature that you are familiar

21 with.

22 A. I agree I can't compare signatures. I'm not a grapholog.

23 Q. When you were in Sovici and Doljani, did you learn where the camp

24 was for Croats, in which Croats were held?

25 A. This happened in a different period, so I didn't go to a place

Page 2025

1 that could have been alleged to be a camp where Croats were held.

2 Q. Could you be kind enough and tell me whether you personally went

3 to the school in Sovici?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. And did you go to the Fourth Elementary School where Croats were

6 held at that same time in Mostar, in Jablanica, in Konjic?

7 A. No, we have other teams in the Tribunal investigating other

8 crimes, so I was concentrating on specifics of the crimes.

9 Q. Was the massacre of Croats at Stipica Livade, just near Doljani,

10 the subject of your investigation? This occurred in July of 1993.

11 A. Not of my investigation, no.

12 Q. But you do have knowledge about that?

13 A. Well, just site knowledge. I heard that things happened in July

14 '93. As I pointed out, I think, when I talked about the destruction in

15 Doljani, there was a counterattack by the Armija in July '93.

16 Q. Did you go to the museum that used to be called "The Museum of the

17 National Liberation Struggle" in Jablanica? This is a locality right next

18 to Doljani.

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. In your investigation, did you learn who was detained in that camp

21 before the 17th of April, 1994, that is, before the attack that is alleged

22 against Sovici and Doljani? In 1993, I'm sorry.

23 A. I know about this place, but I'm not sure if I learned it in the

24 investigation or talking to colleagues in-house.

25 Q. Tell me, please, in your investigation, did you gain possession of

Page 2026

1 a document called "Instructions to Muslim Fighters," issued by the Supreme

2 Command of the Armija, I think, in 1992?

3 A. Not to my remembrance.

4 Q. Did you study the Islamic Declaration of Alija Izetbegovic, who

5 was sentenced in 1980 because of this Declaration, and in which he

6 advocated the establishment of a Muslim state in 1982?

7 A. I did not study the Declaration.

8 Q. Nor did your investigation devote any attention to it?

9 A. Well, certainly I did not personally study the Declaration.

10 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, who assisted you in understanding the

11 genesis of the conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Numerous people within the Office of the Prosecutor, and I read

13 myself books and things like that, so ...

14 Q. Tell me, within the framework of your examination and

15 investigation, did you engage in investigations against Mate Boban, the

16 President of Herceg-Bosna?

17 A. I don't think it's our task to investigate people that are

18 deceased.

19 Q. Before he died.

20 A. I prefer not to talk about previous or pending investigations

21 within the Office of the Prosecutor.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But you see, Your Honour, if I may

23 explain the reasons for putting this question to the witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may, but try to be as concise as possible.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The late Mate Boban was the President

Page 2027

1 of the Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and we heard in the Opening Statement

2 that, according to his alleged instructions, my client did what he is

3 charged with. So if there was an investigation, I would like to request

4 from the Trial Chamber, since he is deceased, for all the documents and

5 all the witnesses that were interviewed in that case, for that file to be

6 disclosed to the Defence. And that was the reason for this question,

7 because it would be of the greatest assistance to the Defence.

8 Another two questions, perhaps, before I finish.

9 Q. Tell me, please. You were in the plane with my client when he was

10 deported from Zagreb to The Hague. What kind of a plane was it?

11 A. That was an American hospital plane.

12 Q. Why was this plane used, a hospital plane?

13 A. Well, to be -- give all the -- all the care to Mr. Naletilic,

14 since before he had complained about his health while he was in Zagreb

15 Prison.

16 Q. Do you agree with me that my client was brought here from the

17 hospital and not from the prison?

18 A. I waited for your client in Zagreb Airport, where he was brought

19 to by helicopter.

20 Q. Do you have any knowledge about his ailments or not?

21 A. About his --

22 Q. Health problems, what my client is suffering from, what health

23 problems he has.

24 A. Well, I'm certainly not a doctor, but of course we got reports

25 that your client had problems with his heart. And even before the handing

Page 2028

1 over to the Tribunal, the doctors went to see him in Zagreb.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I see that it is 11.00.

3 I think I have completed my cross-examination, but I will confer with my

4 colleagues during the break to see whether I have omitted anything of

5 importance. If I do have any questions after the break, they will be two

6 or three on the outside. But I think I have completed my

7 cross-examination. I just need to check with my colleagues.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may ask any relevant questions,

9 since you remind me of your questioning.

10 And, Mr. Stringer, could you possibly provide us, the Judges, with

11 the documents which Mr. Krsnik used in the first case, just as a

12 reference, you know, to let us know all those names?

13 MR. STRINGER: We can provide the Trial Chamber with the document

14 which Mr. Van Hecke was reading from during the cross, and we will do it.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will adjourn until 11.35.

16 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.37 a.m.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, did you finish your

19 cross-examination?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, having consulted my

21 colleagues, I believe I have asked all the questions that we intended to

22 ask, so thank you very much. Yes, I am finished.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 This Trial Chamber wishes to express its dissatisfaction with the

25 way the documents have been used in this courtroom during this morning's

Page 2029

1 session. For the sake of the efficient administration and the fairness of

2 the proceedings, the Trial Chamber, therefore, orders the parties to

3 comply with the following when making use of the documents in the course

4 of the proceedings.

5 First, all documents referred to by a party have to be prenumbered

6 by the Registrar.

7 Second, the number of the documents and the evidence binders in

8 which the documents can be found has to be announced to the Court and the

9 other party.

10 Thirdly, a copy of the documents being used has to be distributed

11 to the Court, the legal officer, and the other parties before this

12 document is being discussed.

13 Fourthly, the party who is intending to quote from the prior

14 witness statement in the course of the examination or cross-examination of

15 a witness shall provide a copy of this statement, indicating the paragraph

16 the party is going to refer to to the translators in advance. Otherwise

17 this Trial Chamber will not accept those documents. I hope that both

18 parties will bear in mind.

19 So, Mr. Seric, your cross-examination, please.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Before I start my cross-examination in the strict sense of the

22 word, Mr. President, I should like to address the representatives of the

23 Prosecution, because the position of the Prosecution regarding the

24 documents obtained by the investigators will also determine the length of

25 my cross-examination.

Page 2030

1 JUDGE LIU: You mean you are going to address them in the

2 courtroom, or privately between yourselves?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, here, in the courtroom.

4 Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 Namely, the Defence would like to know if the OTP intends to

8 tender all the documents that are produced here; or rather, if not, if all

9 these documents will not be tendered into evidence, whether the Defence

10 will be able to use them as its own, as Defence evidence, I mean actually

11 those documents that are not tendered clearly by the Prosecution into

12 evidence.

13 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court. The answer is we do expect

14 to tender the vast majority of the documents in the binders. I won't say

15 every single one because I suppose a few could fall away as not needed in

16 the course of the trial. But we would not have marked them in the first

17 place, frankly, if we didn't think we were going to use them. So we

18 anticipate using the vast majority of them.

19 Certainly the Defence is entitled to mark any document, whether

20 it's marked by us or it's one that we have disclosed to them as part of

21 discovery. They certainly can use any document they wish. And if there's

22 one in their binders they want to mark as a Defence exhibit, that's their

23 decision, of course.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, my learned friend. Thank

25 you, Your Honours. I've got my answer.

Page 2031

1 So all the documentation that we intended to cover with the

2 witness, we shall bring it down to only four documents. But, first, I

3 have some questions to the witness.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

5 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, can you tell us, please --

6 JUDGE LIU: Wait a minute. We are not in the process of admitting

7 those documents as evidence right now. We have got these yesterday

8 provided by the Prosecution. And I think the Chamber will adjourn after

9 the re-examinations by the Prosecution to consult among ourselves, maybe

10 this morning or maybe this afternoon, concerning this very issue. But I'm

11 very glad you raised this question.

12 And you may continue with your cross-examination to this witness,

13 please.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness, can you tell us, when did your office or your

16 investigating team begin to show interest in my client, Mr. Martinovic?

17 Could you give us the year when you began to engage in investigations

18 against him?

19 A. The investigation started against Mr. Naletilic; and in the course

20 of the investigation -- let's say from the investigation, interesting

21 things came up to include Mr. Martinovic. So they are to assume it was

22 '97.

23 Q. Could you, then, confirm that we have witness statements

24 interviewed as early as '95 and '96?

25 A. Yes, I can.

Page 2032

1 Q. Thank you. Are you aware -- I mean, during your investigating

2 work, did you become aware that at the meetings of the very top of the

3 political leadership in Croatia in December '95 and in March '96, that it

4 was in the interest of some to start the proceedings against

5 Mr. Martinovic?

6 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

7 Q. Did you or a member of your team within the framework of this

8 investigation, did you request the transcripts of conversations that the

9 president Tudjman had with his close associates about various things,

10 including this particular matter?

11 A. I know there was a request for transcripts.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, now I should like to

14 ask if we could go into private session. It would be of the nature of a

15 document which the investigator obtained at some point and which I would

16 like to show to him. There are names mentioned in this document who

17 might, perhaps, be among the protected witnesses.

18 JUDGE LIU: We could go to the private session, but you have to

19 bear in mind, this witness is going to tell us, you know, how those

20 documents come from. But that's just it, how he obtained those documents;

21 nothing else. Okay.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that was -- that is what I was

23 about to ask him.

24 JUDGE LIU: We will go into the private session.

25 [Private session]

Page 2033

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12 [Open session]

13 THE WITNESS: Just to be sure, Mr. Seric, is it the paragraph

14 starting with, "To be specific..."?

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No; two passages before that.

16 Q. First, will you please tell us if that is a document that we read

17 from yesterday, and what is that document? Will you please tell us what

18 this document is?

19 A. Yes. This is a document that we had yesterday here. It's a

20 document titled "Republic of Croatia, County Court in Zagreb, Zrinjevac

21 Number 5." "Record of 17 December 1997 of the continued main hearing

22 before the County Court in the city of Zagreb."

23 Q. Now, is this the testimony of Vinko Martinovic, and were you

24 present at that hearing?

25 A. These are the minutes of the hearing the day in which

Page 2039

1 Martinovic testified, and I was present.

2 Q. Thank you. So will you please read out the passage that I

3 mentioned. I can say and the next passage and then we're done.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] So for the interpreters, it's page 5

5 in B/C/S, and in B/C/S it begins with the words "O svim tim pitanjima" and

6 ends with words "dobivao placu," and that is, in English, it would be

7 about all the issues, and ends with "received the salary."

8 A. "I can say very little in regard of all these questions. I was

9 only a soldier commanding 70 people, and I know nothing about all those

10 meetings. My work was such that I commanded and assigned tasks which I

11 would be given by the military district commander, and I felt myself to be

12 a member of the Convicts' Battalion only because it was from them that I

13 received my salary."

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Your Honours,

15 this is the end of my cross-examination.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination from the Prosecution?

17 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, very briefly.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

19 Q. Mr. Van Hecke, just two things I want to ask you about.

20 First of all, you were asked during the cross-examination by

21 Mr. Krsnik about involvement of the local authorities, particularly the

22 Agency for Investigation and Documentation. Do you recall that line of

23 questions?

24 A. Yes, more or less.

25 Q. Now, during the course of the investigation, I think you testified

Page 2040

1 that those authorities assisted you in locating witnesses, and they also

2 assisted you in actually putting you face to face with those witnesses; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's what I remember, yes.

5 Q. Now, in terms of witness interviews and the making of witness

6 statements during the course of the investigation, who did that?

7 A. That was done either by myself or by my investigators.

8 Q. That is, people with the Office of the Prosecutor?

9 A. That's correct, yes.

10 Q. Members of the Bosnian government, these local authorities, were

11 they present during the interviews of the witnesses?

12 A. No, they were not.

13 Q. Now, you testified that you received documentation or, yeah,

14 documents from the Bosnian authorities. Were those documents -- those

15 Bosnian witness statements, were those accepted by you at face value?

16 A. Excuse me. I don't understand the last part of your question.

17 Q. Was any additional work done by the Office of the Prosecutor in

18 respect of Bosnian government witness statements which were received?

19 A. Well, let's say that we analysed information that was in these

20 statements, that's for sure, yes.

21 Q. Were those accepted in place of statements taken by investigators

22 of the Office of the Prosecutor?

23 A. No, they were not.

24 Q. Now, also during your testimony, you -- by Mr. Krsnik, you were

25 asked to look at a document which was Exhibit Number --

Page 2041

1 MR. STRINGER: I apologise, Mr. President, I don't have it at my

2 fingertips here. If I could have just a moment. It's actually right in

3 front of me, Exhibit 327. And for this I would ask briefly to go into

4 private session.

5 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Now we are in the private session.

6 [Private session]

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Van Hecke, you referred on a number of occasions

25 in direct examination and cross-examination to a document that was

Page 2043

1 received from the Republic of Croatia, and that would be Exhibit 830.1. I

2 think if I understand your evidence, you said that you were present in

3 court when a case was brought by the Republic of Croatia against Mladen

4 Naletilic.

5 A. I was, yes.

6 JUDGE CLARK: And you described this document as the minutes of

7 what occurred in the court that day?

8 A. Yes, I did.

9 JUDGE CLARK: I know that Mr. Krsnik has his problems with that,

10 but that's another issue. Could you identify the person who was the

11 defendant, Mr. Naletilic, on that occasion?

12 A. Yes, I could.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Is he present in court?

14 A. He is.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Is he the same person as the accused?

16 A. He's the same person as the accused, yes.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. Is that the same person that you

18 accompanied on the aeroplane?

19 A. Yes, he is.

20 JUDGE CLARK: And what about the witness on that day, who was

21 Mr. Vinko Martinovic?

22 A. The same applies for him. I also saw him in court, giving

23 testimony.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Is that the same Mr. Martinovic who is a witness

25 today -- who is an accused person today?

Page 2044

1 A. Yes, he is.

2 JUDGE CLARK: And then the next question I wanted to ask you was:

3 Does the description in the document which was referred to in

4 cross-examination and recently in re-examination - that's Exhibit 327 of

5 SpaBat documents, Volume 1 - does the description that is furnished --

6 JUDGE LIU: Do we need to go into private session?

7 JUDGE CLARK: I won't refer to it, just the exhibit.

8 Does that exhibit, which furnishes a personal history and

9 information -- does the description of the accused Mr. Naletilic accord

10 with the description in that document, in your opinion?

11 A. Well, what concerns the physical description, I can --

12 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, that's what I want to know, the physical

13 description.

14 A. Yes. About the physical description, I can say "yes.".

15 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. That's all I wanted to ask you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions out of Judge Clark's

17 questions? Yes.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, thank you for the opportunity. I

19 failed to ask one question of the witness which I intended to ask on the

20 re-direct.

21 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

22 Q. Concerning the proceedings in the Zagreb Court which you attended,

23 Mr. Van Hecke - I think you don't need to look at the document again, I

24 just simply wanted to ask you - the text, the minutes which are found in

25 that document, do those correspond -- do they comport with your

Page 2045

1 recollection of what was actually said in the courtroom?

2 A. Well, it's not an exact transcript like we have here in court.

3 Q. But does the essence of the testimony which you heard by the

4 accused Martinovic, does the essence -- is it reflected accurately in the

5 minutes which are Exhibit 830.1?

6 A. Yes, to my remembrance, it is.

7 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness. Thank you very much for helping

9 us by giving the evidence. You may leave now.

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber is seized with a Defence motion

13 concerned with allowing the investigators to follow the proceedings. We

14 found that this motion is not in consistance with the orders made by this

15 Trial Chamber dated September 7th, 2001, entitled "Order on Filing of

16 Motions."

17 I have to remind both parties, prior to filing a written motion

18 the parties shall meet to discuss the matters and endeavour to reach

19 agreement, and the parties moving on the written motion shall include a

20 draft order with that motion.

21 In this case, this Trial Chamber has not received any response

22 from the Prosecution side, and this motion has not indicated whether this

23 investigator will be a future witness in the Defence case.

24 Mr. Scott, are you ready to give your initial response to this

25 Defence motion as for the investigators from the Defence side sitting in

Page 2046

1 the proceedings?

2 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I think I can do that.

3 Our initial response is one that I suppose it's only fair that

4 similar rules that apply to the Office of the Prosecutor's investigators,

5 which were the subject of a motion that we made some days ago, that the

6 Defence counsel and Defence team be treated roughly similarly. We have no

7 problem with that. However, the second part which, Mr. President, you

8 just raised, we don't know exactly what the intentions are in terms of

9 this investigator. If the investigator is here just to assist counsel,

10 certainly that's fine. I don't know if they intend to call this person as

11 a witness, and I agree, Mr. President, that that hasn't been clear.

12 That's the only inquiry that I would make through the Chamber. But other

13 than that, well, we would expect, I suppose, they would be treated

14 similarly to -- as we have.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric -- sorry. Mr. Krsnik. I'm

16 sorry about that.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 The intention to have the investigator in the courtroom with us is

19 for her to assist us. She will not be testifying ever. As you know, this

20 is a person who, until a few days ago, was co-counsel, so it is absolutely

21 clear that she will be in the role of a legal advisor rather than an

22 investigator, simply to assist us. We do not intend ever to call her as a

23 witness. So it is simply to assist us in our Defence.

24 And we apologise to Your Honours. We wrote this motion prior to

25 receiving your order on the filing of motions regarding how such motions

Page 2047

1 should be drafted. But in future, of course, we will respect your order

2 and act accordingly.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, the Trial Chamber will make decisions based on

4 the presentations by both sides in a written form at a later stage.

5 Now, I think we have to adjourn at this moment because this Trial

6 Chamber would like to consult among ourselves in camera.

7 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

8 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I apologise for interrupting you.

9 During the cross-examination of Mr. Van Hecke, I actually noticed that I

10 made a mistake when I was putting together the long list of all of the

11 documents. Using the cut and paste on my computer, I actually inserted a

12 number of the seized documents into what is on this list indicated as

13 documents from Croatia. So the listing of documents provided under

14 subheading E, Republic of Croatia, is incorrect and does not accurately

15 reflect the exhibits which are found in the Republic of Croatia binder.

16 And I apologise for having made that mistake, and I think it's a mistake

17 that can be quickly fixed.

18 And I don't know whether the Trial Chamber had intended to discuss

19 this issue now during this break, or whether it was going to take this up

20 later, but I'm sure that we can provide the corrected list of all of these

21 documents to the Trial Chamber in about -- it would only take 10 or

22 15 minutes' time to do that. Whether it's now or whether the lunch break,

23 we're in your hands.

24 THE COURT: I hope you could provide us with the corrected list as

25 soon as possible.

Page 2048

1 MR. STRINGER: Very well. If we're going to take a break,

2 Mr. President, then I can run back to the office and attempt to do that

3 just within the next few minutes.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. And be sure to provide the corrected lists to

5 the Defence side.

6 MR. STRINGER: Yes, we will do that.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 We'll adjourn until 2.30.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

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Page 2049

1 --- On resuming at 2.39 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon. First of all, I want to make sure

3 whether the Defence lawyers have got the list of all exhibits tendered

4 through this witness, I mean the amended list.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, I'm confirming that

7 we have received a corrected list of exhibits from the Prosecution.

8 JUDGE LIU: Do you have any objections against tendering all those

9 documents?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The Defence of the first accused,

11 Mladen Naletilic, does have objections. We object to the tendering of

12 these documents for reasons that we have already pointed out and also

13 indicated during the cross-examination. In other words, one cannot tender

14 documents whose origin is not known, the source of which is not known, and

15 the authenticity of the documents can be confirmed only by the author of

16 the document.

17 Since we had the investigator present who testified about

18 everything on the basis of hearsay and described to us the manner in which

19 he obtained those documents, and also answered in the affirmative to my

20 question if he had any direct knowledge, that is, he confirmed the doubt

21 expressed in my question whether he had any direct contact with either the

22 source of the documents or persons who wrote those documents, in

23 particular with regard to the way in which particular documents were

24 obtained -- for instance, in Madrid, they had put before them on the table

25 some documents which then they selected at their will without interviewing

Page 2050

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Page 2051

1 individuals or verifying the authenticity of each one of those documents,

2 in particular, documents which they say were obtained during search and

3 seizure. And the Defence says that they were taken by force.

4 In the case of those documents, we simply cannot speak about the

5 authenticity of documents, especially because the majority of those

6 documents are either not signed by hand, or there are stamps missing

7 altogether, so that those documents could have been written by anyone for

8 all sorts of reasons. In particular, we wish to emphasise that those

9 documents and other documents of the same kind which originate from

10 intelligence communities are not used as evidence in any one national

11 jurisdiction, whether Continental or the North American, because this is

12 the kind of information that intelligence community collects and prepares

13 for information of either the Prime Minister or ministers or commanders of

14 armed forces. And such documents have absolutely no probative value, and

15 because to give them any probative value, one would have to check the

16 source to analyse them and, in particular, to interview those who wrote

17 those documents. That is, by and large, our principal objection, that

18 these documents may not be tendered into evidence.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Sorry about that.

21 Are you giving us a global answer to say no to all those

22 documents, including all those maps, the photographs, or you mean

23 particular documents tendering in this sitting?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as regards photographs

25 or maps, well, in those cases, we, of course, have no objections. But

Page 2052

1 since we did not analyse every document separately, but we followed the

2 method of random choice or deliberate selection of documents to be

3 presented to this Court, on the basis of this kind of information, the

4 Defence has just presented its argument, that is, its reasons. And I mean

5 the reports of European monitors or intelligence officers of whatever

6 international unit. And in particular, we're against the admission of

7 documents which were taken by force and out of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because

8 the question is -- there is also the legal question relating to these

9 documents. If these documents were obtained in an unlawful manner, as far

10 as I know, both in Continental and in U.S. law, such documents may not be

11 accepted as evidence before court.

12 Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your Honours,

16 Mr. Martinovic's Defence does not object to the admission of those

17 documents, and if we challenge any one of these documents -- any one of

18 those documents, then we shall present our reasons, but when the Defence

19 case opens.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 In furtherance of a fair and expeditious trial, the Trial Chamber

23 will receive the 18 binders of documents provided by the Prosecution as of

24 today. The Chamber is satisfied that the receipt of the document

25 collection from the Prosecution at this early stage of the proceedings

Page 2053

1 will serve a smooth and efficient administration of the proceedings in the

2 course of the trial.

3 The admission of particular documents into evidence, however, is

4 subject to a further ruling of the Trial Chamber, after such a document

5 has been tendered with a Prosecution witness at a later stage of the

6 proceedings.

7 The Trial Chamber further notes that five sides of the documents

8 that were introduced by the Prosecution with the witness Van Hecke has

9 been tendered into evidence. First, there were document collections:

10 One, received from the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina; two, received

11 from Croatia government; three, and the documents obtained through the

12 search and seizure operation in September 1998.

13 In furtherance of the expediency of the trial, the Trial Chamber

14 invite Defence to file their objections with regard to particular

15 documents of those evidence clusters in written forms. The Defence has

16 30 calendar days from dates of decision to do so. The Prosecution will

17 have 15 calendar days from the day they were seized of the motion of the

18 Defence to reply in relation to the matters raised therein.

19 Second, there are evidence collections obtained from SpaBat and

20 from the European Monitor Mission which was not available in the B/C/S

21 language. The Trial Chamber will wait for the views expressed by the

22 parties in their written motions, as requested by this Trial Chamber.

23 The further ruling on admission of this evidence collections is

24 subject to the Trial Chamber's decision on language issues.

25 Okay, Mr. Scott, your next witness.

Page 2054

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, we will prepare to call the next

2 witness. Before we do, there are protective measures to deal with. In

3 that regard -- sorry, Your Honour, I'm just thinking about what we need to

4 do. I don't think we need private session specifically for the reasons,

5 at least not initially.

6 Your Honour, this next witness is going to request -- is

7 requesting that he testify with his facial image distorted in terms of the

8 broadcast, that his voice also be distorted, and that he be given a

9 pseudonym so his real name will not be used. It will also be necessary,

10 because of his position, which would tend to identify him fairly easily,

11 to take certain parts of his testimony in private session.

12 And I must say, Your Honour, in some respects, it would be almost

13 easier to do in closed session because of so many limitations. But the

14 Prosecution is attempting to do as much of the trial as possible, of

15 course, in as public a way as possible, so we are trying to use the

16 minimum protections. But given the technology involved, like the special

17 voice distortion, going in and out of private session, I'll just alert the

18 Chamber that it may be technically a bit unwieldy at times. But it's

19 doable. He is requesting those protections.

20 If I can represent, based on our experience in depositions, what

21 the practice has been - and I'm sure counsel will correct me if I'm wrong

22 - as to requests for protective measures short of closed session, I think

23 there has at least in the past been a general agreement from both Defence

24 teams that there are not objections. Of course, I'll let them speak for

25 themselves, but that's what the position has been in the past.

Page 2055

1 JUDGE LIU: Any objections from Defence side?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I confirm with regard

3 to the protective measures. Yes, the parties have agreed with regard to

4 those protective measures, and the Defence of the first accused will

5 comply with that agreement. And we shall not object to the protective

6 measures granted to individual witnesses, to the agreement that we have

7 reached.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, likewise I confirm that

10 Vinko Martinovic's Defence is also agreeable to the protective measures

11 proposed by the Prosecution today, as of today. However, for the record,

12 one needs to say that in the future, we may just be nodding our heads in

13 agreement with that. But we are not objecting to the witnesses'

14 protection.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So your motion has been granted,

16 Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. And I believe, in keeping

18 track of the pseudonyms from the depositions, I believe this will be

19 Witness O, if the registrar agrees.

20 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I was reminded by Madam Registrar that

22 because these protective measures have been granted, when you're asking

23 questions and after you're asking your question, you have to turn off your

24 microphone. I think the same is applied to the Defence side.

25 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, while we're waiting, I can predict that

Page 2056

1 in order again not to identify the witness, probably the first 20

2 questions or so will probably be in private session, and then we can go

3 back to public session, at least in terms of the audio.

4 JUDGE LIU: Okay. You'll remind us at the right time.

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

9 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

10 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

11 accordance with the paper that the usher is showing to you.

12 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

15 WITNESS: WITNESS O

16 Examined by Mr. Scott:

17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness O. I'm addressing you as "Witness O," and

18 I will tell you now that the Chamber has been kind enough to grant the

19 requested protective measures. So in order that you know the conditions

20 under which you are testifying, I will tell you that your real name is not

21 going to be used today or in the record. You will be referred to as

22 "Witness O." You also -- in terms of any broadcast or recording, your

23 facial image will be distorted, and also your voice will be distorted. Do

24 you understand that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2057

1 Q. And --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please come closer to the

3 microphone.

4 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to suggest perhaps, sir, if you would move a

5 little closer to the microphone, it would be helpful to everyone.

6 Q. Now, the first thing I'm going to do before proceeding further:

7 The usher is going to show you a piece of paper with your name on it.

8 Now, again for the reasons I just explained to you, I don't want you to

9 say your name in court, but if you look at the sheet and the name that's

10 been written on the sheet of paper that will be shown to you, will you

11 just answer "yes" or "no": Is that your name?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, are we going to be provided with this

14 sheet?

15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, right now. Mr. President, obviously I do

16 believe, of course, that information is quite important to the Chamber.

17 Is that clear enough for you, the writing? You have the name? All right,

18 thank you.

19 All right. We're in private session now? No. Could we go to

20 private session, please?

21 [Private session]

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22 We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

24 4.00 p.m., to be reconvened on

25 Thursday, the 13th day of September, 2000,

Page 2081

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