Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2909

1 Tuesday, 25 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case

7 Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: So, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness who is

10 called to testify today requests some protective measures; first of all,

11 pseudonym, and facial distortion. The witness lives in Mostar and has

12 concerns as for his security and the security of his family. That's why I

13 ask you to grant his request.

14 JUDGE LIU: I guess there is no objections from Defence counsel.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Your request is granted.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

19 The registrar has a document with some details about our witness's

20 background and a little bit more, because he was involved in some

21 activities which should not be revealed here straightforwardly. So you

22 will see a little bit more details on this sheet of paper.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness is "U".

25 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

Page 2910

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to all.

2 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: WITNESS U

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

8 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

9 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

10 Q. Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

11 the Trial Chamber. Now you are given a pseudonym. From now on during the

12 trial, of course, you will be called "Witness U." By no means should you

13 pronounce your full name or your first name during the trial.

14 And now you will be shown a sheet of paper with some name and the

15 indication of some activities that you were involved in during the war and

16 after the war. Will you read it, but not read it aloud, and check if it

17 is correct. If it is correct, you may say "yes."

18 A. Just one moment, please. Yes.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

20 Your Honour, Witness U's testimony is supposed to go mostly to

21 background, paragraph 7, 10 and 11; superior authority, paragraph 17;

22 general allegations, paragraph 18 to 20; count 1, paragraphs from 26 to

23 28, 30, 31, 34(a), (b); counts 2 to 5 --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Could you please slow down for the translation.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry. So count 1, paragraphs 26 to 28, 30, 31,

Page 2911

1 34(a), (b); counts 2 and 5, paragraphs 35 to 38, 40, 44; counts 15 to 17,

2 paragraphs 51, 52.

3 Q. Witness, what is your nationality?

4 A. I'm a Bosniak by nationality.

5 Q. Who were your parents by religion?

6 A. My parents died before 30, and 15 years ago. And by religion,

7 they were Muslims.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness U, did you have any military background before

9 the war broke out in the former Yugoslavia in 1991? I mean military

10 background in the army of the former Yugoslavia.

11 A. No, absolutely not, except that I, just like all young men of a

12 certain age, served my regular military term in the former Yugoslav

13 national army, the JNA.

14 Q. For how many years?

15 A. Fifteen months.

16 Q. Did you live in Mostar through 1991-1993?

17 A. Yes, I was born in Mostar, and I have spent my whole life right up

18 to now in Mostar. And this includes the period that you are asking

19 about.

20 Q. Witness U, I would like to ask you, as a Mostar citizen, if you

21 could give us a very brief overview of the main events that you personally

22 observed, had knowledge of, for the fall of 1991 through 1993 in Mostar,

23 first of all, which led to serious deterioration in the relations between

24 the Croat and Muslim communities and, finally, brought about a conflict

25 between the HVO and AbiH.

Page 2912

1 A. Of course I can. But there wasn't only a deterioration in the

2 relationships between the Muslims and the Croats but between all three

3 nationalities that lived in Mostar. Serbs also lived there. So there was

4 a deterioration in relations between all the people which resulted in a

5 bloody, difficult war. And if you would like, I can talk about this

6 chronologically; or if you prefer, I could answer your answers.

7 Q. Witness U, don't hurry, please. Otherwise, the interpreter will

8 stop you.

9 I would like you just to narrate a little bit, but pay more

10 attention to the relationship between the Muslim and Croat communities

11 because it's mostly the subject matter of our case. I mean, main events.

12 A. Of course. I will try to slow down in order to enable the

13 interpreters to keep up.

14 It's very difficult to determine -- it's very difficult precisely

15 to determine when the relationship amongst the groups deteriorated to such

16 an extent that it turned into armed conflicts. In the fall of 1991,

17 Mostar was occupied by forces of the former Yugoslav National Army,

18 strengthened by a large number of so-called reservists, i.e., reserve

19 soldiers, mostly from the Republic of Serbia and the Republic of

20 Montenegro. Already, at that time, the citizens had a sense that

21 something unusual or out of the ordinary was happening, and soon there was

22 a major presence of these soldiers who did not look like real soldiers.

23 This escalated through individual incidents. And then in the

24 course of March and particularly April 1992, an armed conflict broke out

25 between the citizens who, in part, spontaneously and, in part, in an

Page 2913

1 organised fashion tried to oppose this evident threat. In May, the armed

2 conflicts escalated and turned into a real war against the former Yugoslav

3 National Army, or whatever was left of it. And the patriotically-oriented

4 citizens of Bosniak and Croat ethnicity, and partially also citizens of

5 Serb nationality who were citizens of Mostar, after a couple of months,

6 these armed clashes went or turned in favour of the citizens of Mostar.

7 And the armed formations, which had already started to form, or had

8 already grown, so that at the end of June, Mostar, the main part of the

9 city or the centre of the city, was liberated, liberated from those

10 military or paramilitary forces.

11 The summer of '92 came. The shelling of Mostar continued by Serb

12 units who had taken the elevations surrounding the city. And in the very

13 city itself, at the end of the summer and in the fall, there were small,

14 minor incidents in the beginning between Croats and Bosniaks, mostly due

15 to the fact that the Croats, who had never formed the majority in the city

16 of Mostar. Never in the history of Mostar did they form the majority, and

17 that's how it was before the war, so they wished to have absolute power.

18 They wanted their military formations called "HVO" to be the dominant

19 power in the military sense.

20 The political leadership of the Croats --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

22 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I must object at this time. I don't

23 think there's a question in front of the witness. The witness seems to be

24 rambling. The witness also seems to be giving conclusions or opinions. I

25 believe this witness is a lay witness, not an expert witness, and I don't

Page 2914

1 believe -- and I object to this witness giving conclusions and making

2 conclusionary statements without any foundation. It's highly improper.

3 The Prosecutor must ask specific questions and gain specific answers and

4 not just let this witness talk. And I object to this form of testimony.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, at the very beginning of the direct examination,

6 it is quite necessary to lay out the foundations of the situation so that

7 we could come into the particular environment at that time. Maybe the

8 witness has talked a lot on those things, but we could ask him to be more

9 concise in his answering of the question.

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, I appreciate that, and I believe that is

11 exactly my objection. I was silent while the background information was

12 coming out, but at this point in time it's become more than background

13 information. Now he's getting specifically into the areas concerned in

14 our indictment and he is giving conclusions without any foundational basis

15 at this time, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, will you please guide your witness

17 with the specific questions.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I will do it, but --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: But I do not agree with my learned colleague

21 because, first of all, in the beginning of my direct examination, I

22 informed the Trial Chamber that some of his testimony will be relevant to

23 the background which is contained in our indictment. And as far as I

24 remember, he is our first witness, a citizen of Mostar, here in the

25 courtroom who can give some information about the background and the

Page 2915

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Page 2916

1 development of events.

2 As for his conclusions, it's up to him to make his conclusions or

3 not to make. The decision will be made by the Trial Chamber.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed with the concise questions, and

5 give more guidance to your witness in your question.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

7 Q. Witness, I would like you just to return to the events in April

8 1992, when there were some conflicts in the military sphere of Mostar.

9 A. The conflicts in April 1992 were conflicts with the Serbian side.

10 I am noting again that at that time there were no conflicts between Croats

11 and Muslims or Bosniaks.

12 I'm sorry if the Defence misunderstood me. I just tried, in five

13 or six sentences, to present the period in a chronological manner from

14 1992 until May 1993, which you must admit is a large period to be

15 encompassed by five or six sentences.

16 Q. We'll stop on some certain events. First of all, the problem of

17 the Territorial Defence of HOS and HVO forces, what was the reason for

18 such conflict or discrepancies between these two factions?

19 A. HOS are the armed forces of the Croatian Party of Right, organised

20 in the Republic of Croatia. The HVO appeared as the armed forces

21 officially on the 8th of April, 1992. In order not to make any

22 conclusions, I will demonstrate this in an example.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2917

1 (redacted)

2 Q. So go ahead.

3 A. At the end of March, the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina

4 was formed as a regular armed force. And already in the month of April,

5 the independent Mostar Battalion was also formed in Mostar as one of the

6 units within the regular army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 So I stopped at the point where I was talking about the company

8 where I worked, which is of exceptional importance everywhere in the

9 world. Already at the end of March, the company was occupied by members

10 of the units which wore insignia as defence of the city. Over 90 per cent

11 of that unit was composed of citizens of Croatian nationality from Mostar

12 and the surrounding area.

13 Q. Were there any -- sorry. Were there any Muslims within this

14 formation?

15 A. I didn't meet a single one, and I worked for almost 30 days in

16 that company. I worked there, I slept there, because very few of us came

17 to work. And in that time, I never saw a single Bosniak Muslim there.

18 Q. And what happened in your place of work? I mean what kind of

19 implications did it have for you personally?

20 A. Towards the end of April or, let's say, in mid-April, the director

21 of my company at that time, who was a Bosniak Muslim and with whom I

22 worked for about 20 years, told me that nobody asked him anything any

23 more, that his duties were completely taken over by one lawyer, a citizen

24 of Croatian nationality, and that because of the efforts of me, my

25 efforts, and the efforts of my boss, both of us having worked for over a

Page 2918

1 month to keep this large system together, this person could pay us ten

2 monthly salaries as a kind of reward. And that was the only thing that

3 this person could do for us, because probably most of us will be fired

4 from our jobs, which came about in just a few days. The Bosniaks employed

5 in that system were mostly fired, and other employees appeared, Croats,

6 who up until that time did not work at that company in Mostar. I knew

7 them from having seen them around before, because they usually -- most of

8 them worked in the company's branches in Western Herzegovina.

9 Q. And what about the situation with the distribution of humanitarian

10 aid in Mostar area?

11 A. Humanitarian aid in Mostar, since the very beginning, was at all

12 times -- until the end of the war -- was quite inadequate to satisfy the

13 most elementary requirements. In that regard, the people who were exposed

14 to the most difficulties were Muslims and Serbs because the citizens of

15 Croat nationality had the possibility to receive most of their

16 humanitarian aid from charity organisations of the Catholic church, of

17 course, with the assistance of many countries from Europe.

18 Q. What about the freedom of movement in Mostar, in this area -- I

19 mean this period, in 1993, in the beginning?

20 A. The only possible way out from Mostar for people aged between

21 18 and 60 was, of course, with the permission of the HVO, and these were

22 particular, specific persons, especially the president of the defence

23 section of Herceg-Bosna, the commander of the zone of South-Eastern

24 Herzegovina, and the president of the Croatian Defence Council of the city

25 of Mostar. By the end of 1992, the HVO adopted some decisions about the

Page 2919

1 use to be made of abandoned apartments, and in early 1993, regulations

2 regarding freedom of movement so that, in fact, the citizens of Bosniak

3 ethnicity were not allowed to go out of the city or enter the city.

4 Q. And what about abandoned flats? Which abandoned flats do you

5 mean?

6 A. When I say "abandoned flats," Your Honour, it's very difficult to

7 explain the situation. Mostar was full of refugees. There were Croats

8 that had fled, but they were basically expelled Bosniaks from Eastern

9 Herzegovina under the occupation of the Serb paramilitary forces. The

10 decree, in fact, stipulated that further settlement was prohibited. In

11 other words, absolute protectionism had been introduced because at that

12 particular moment, the flats where the citizens of Mostar used to live and

13 citizens that had left Mostar, because of the war situation, these

14 people -- these flats were systematically given to citizens of Croat

15 nationality who had mainly arrived from Central Bosnia and Northern

16 Herzegovina.

17 Q. Did you see all these documents, I mean the documents on freedom

18 of movement and regulation of abandoned flats?

19 A. The city of Mostar, before the war, had only one paper --

20 newspaper that appeared once in a fortnight, once in 15 days. Of course,

21 during the war, there were no papers appearing, no newspapers, and the

22 only newspapers that could be bought were the papers coming from the

23 Republic of Croatia. Those regulations were mainly published over the

24 Croatian radio, the radio station in Mostar. Whether they were made

25 available in a written form to some of the institutions, I cannot confirm

Page 2920

1 truly.

2 Q. Who was the president of the HVO in Mostar?

3 A. The president of the HVO from the day the HVO was made public

4 officially was Mr. Jadran Topic.

5 Q. Will you spell it for the record.

6 A. J-A-D-R-A-N T-O-P-I-C.

7 Q. Witness U, do you know the facts when some Mostar citizens who

8 were Muslim religion -- Bosniaks by nationality joined the HVO?

9 A. Of course, a large number of the citizens of Mostar of Bosniak

10 nationality joined the HVO, particularly in the early period, because the

11 HVO basically proclaimed the goals of the struggle, at least on paper in a

12 declaratory fashion, goals that were agreeable with most of the citizens.

13 Q. Did you have relatives or your former colleagues, et cetera, who

14 joined the HVO? I won't ask you to give any names, just the fact only, if

15 you have someone.

16 A. Of course. A large number of my friends and acquaintances, and my

17 younger brother, were members of the HVO until the first conflicts

18 erupted.

19 Q. When did the first conflict erupt?

20 A. Not counting individual occasional incidents, the first conflict

21 took place during the night between April 18th and 19th in 1993. Of

22 course, I am referring to Mostar because as early as in 1992, there were

23 conflicts, bloody conflicts north of Mostar. But in Mostar, the conflict

24 began in the following manner: The HVO suddenly shelled and used infantry

25 weapons to attack a small unit of the B and H army, which was located in

Page 2921

1 the very centre of the city at the Mostar Hotel. The attack lasted until

2 the morning hours.

3 Q. And what was the result of that attack?

4 A. The result of that attack was a compromise agreement supervised by

5 UNPROFOR. And that unit left its base at the Mostar Hotel, which had to

6 remain neutral. But two days later, it was taken over by the HVO.

7 Q. And where did the corps of the BH army have its headquarters,

8 then, after that event?

9 A. The command of the 4th Corps of the B and H army was in

10 practically the same building as the command of the HVO in the western

11 part of Mostar until there was an outright attack on Mostar. And when the

12 small unit had left, the command of the 4th Corps of the army of B and H

13 remained totally isolated and fully surrounded, which eventually ended in

14 the capture of all the members of the unit and the seizure of all

15 equipment.

16 Q. Witness U, it is established that the conflict, military conflict,

17 which broke out in April 1993 was already in full swing in April, by the

18 end of April. And what was happening in Mostar at that period of time? I

19 mean the end of April 1993 and the beginning of May 1993.

20 A. This was, so to speak, the time before the conflicts, and

21 alongside with the evolution of the situation in Mostar, agreements and

22 consultations were taking place, mainly in Geneva, because a multitude of

23 plans were under review with the aim of putting a stop to the escalation

24 of fighting in Bosnia and Herzegovina. On the basis of one of those

25 plans, which provided for the organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina into

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Page 2923

1 ten provinces - this was in early April 1993, I believe - the then

2 Minister of Defence, Mr. Bozo Rajic, publicly stated on television a

3 proclamation in the form of an order, according to which all the units of

4 the -- the regular units of the B and H army had to fully abandon -- leave

5 the area of Mostar or to place themselves fully under the command of the

6 HVO of Herceg-Bosna. I mention that that agreement had never been signed

7 by all three sides in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. But was this agreement or decision or order of the former minister

9 ever implemented?

10 A. Of course it was not implemented, because it was illegal, it was

11 illegitimate, and it was impossible to be implemented under those

12 circumstances.

13 Q. And what happened in Mostar on the 9th of May, 1993?

14 A. On May 9th, 1993, in the morning hours, about 4.00 a.m., all the

15 available forces of the Croatian Defence Council, the HVO, with possible

16 support of some of the regular units of the Croatian army, attacked the

17 command of the corps of the B and H army.

18 Q. What kind of weapons was used by the HVO during that attack?

19 A. All sorts of weapons, with the exception of the aviation.

20 Q. To which place did you observe the attack? I don't ask you to

21 give the name of your street.

22 A. No, I will not, of course. I observed the attack from my building

23 in the centre of the city, from the ninth floor. I had an excellent view

24 and I could fully see the locations from which the HVO was acting and the

25 left bank of the city that was in fire and smoke because it had been the

Page 2924

1 target. The portion of the city on the left banks of the Neretva River,

2 it was attacked by all sorts of conventional weaponry with which the HVO

3 disposed, basically artillery weapons. The whole area was shelled

4 systematically, which of course meant a number of civilian casualties and

5 total destruction.

6 Q. How long did that attack last?

7 A. The attack virtually didn't end at all. It was exceptionally

8 fierce from 4.00 in the morning until noon, when the portion of the city

9 on the left banks of the river, according to the assessments of that time

10 and later on, about between five and seven thousand shells were in fact

11 shot at -- fired at the city, with continuous infantry attacks.

12 Q. Were there any official statements made by the HVO authorities

13 regarding the events that were happening on the 9th of May in Mostar?

14 A. The citizens were probably - and here I mean the citizens of Croat

15 nationality, because I think that many of them had been surprised by that

16 attack, and not only surprised but in fact appalled, at least I think this

17 was the case with my neighbours - they were expecting an official

18 explanation.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Meek.

20 MR. MEEK: May it please Your Honours, I object to the

21 non-responsiveness of this question. The question was very simply

22 put: "Was there any official statement made by HVO authorities concerning

23 the events of the 9th of May?" And there's no answer to that question.

24 It's a non-responsive answer, and I object. I've been trying not to

25 object, but I would ask the Trial Chamber to please ask this witness to

Page 2925

1 listen to the questions and try to answer those questions and be

2 responsive. Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Witness, please answer the question. The question is

4 a very simple one.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

6 Well, at 9.00 on the Croatian -- the radio station of Mostar, a

7 proclamation was made, signed by the president of the HVO of Mostar,

8 Mr. Jadran Topic. Well, just to give you the gist of it, the proclamation

9 stated that the HVO had undertaken a widespread action with the aim of

10 establishing law and order, and calling upon the Bosniaks, the Muslims, to

11 put out white flags through their windows as a sign of capitulation, of

12 surrender, of surrender.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

14 Q. Did anyone do that? I mean did anyone put white flags on their

15 buildings, apartments, roads?

16 A. I cannot give you an accurate response to that. But as far as I

17 could see, and as far as I learned later on, no one had done it because

18 this had no sense.

19 Q. Why?

20 A. Well, I don't know what sense there would have been for the

21 citizens in the part of the city which was being fiercely shelled and who

22 asked for any sort of shelter to survive would risk their lives to climb

23 to their windows and put out white cloth as a sign of surrender, not

24 knowing even who had attacked them.

25 Q. But was there any other announcement by the HVO authorities of

Page 2926

1 events on the day -- the first one you are talking about was in the

2 morning. But the situation kept on developing for the worse, as I

3 understood from your testimony.

4 A. Yes. The first proclamation which was announced, it was probably

5 a mistake. It was never repeated again. In the evening hours, at prime

6 time, that is when the news -- news were being broadcast, the television

7 of Croatia, a programme which was, in fact, forced upon most of the

8 citizens of that area, the public explanation was broadcast for this, not

9 mentioning the early morning announcement. It said that the B and H army

10 in the morning hours tried to attack a military building which served as a

11 base of the HVO, and that the HVO responded fiercely and hit at the

12 military target.

13 Q. And what happened in Mostar between these two announcements, one

14 in the morning and the second one later? What happened to the Muslim

15 population, first of all, civilian population?

16 A. At the very beginning of the attack - in some parts of the city,

17 even before the attack - units of the HVO, which were very numerous, they

18 were all available units that were not engaged in combat, they began to

19 surround buildings, houses, and started to take out from those buildings

20 all citizens of Bosniak nationality, including myself, regardless of our

21 age. There was also a large number of mothers with children. They took

22 them to the stadium of the Velez football club. It was like a central

23 collection point from where they took them to already-prepared camps in

24 buses.

25 Q. What happened to you on that day?

Page 2927

1 A. Before 6.00 in the morning, the building where I live, and the

2 entrance to my apartment actually leads to 51 apartments, so one HVO unit

3 in full combat equipment came into this entrance. This means that they

4 were wearing helmets, bulletproof vests. They were very well armed. My

5 apartment was entered by about ten members of the HVO. They told me and

6 my brother to lean against the wall. They kicked and pushed aside all the

7 things that were in the apartment. They ransacked it, allegedly looking

8 for weapons. While they were doing this, they took for themselves objects

9 which could be of use to them, valuable objects, gold jewellery --

10 Q. For example.

11 A. -- gold jewellery, a small Commodore, child's computer, and some

12 other things which I didn't see them take because they were very rough.

13 They were pulling drawers out. And then after 10 minutes, they told us to

14 go out.

15 Q. Did they explain to you why you and some other people should go

16 out or must go out?

17 A. No. There was no explanation. They were just looking for

18 weapons, and they told us that we have to go outside in front of the

19 building.

20 Q. Did you see any people, both military or civilians, you were

21 familiar with before down in the street where you were taken by the HVO

22 soldiers?

23 A. They didn't take us down the street. They brought us outside in

24 front of the entrance to the building where there was a large closed

25 vehicle waiting, and the vehicle was marked as an urgent medical

Page 2928

1 assistance vehicle. Of course, I recognised some of the HVO members who

2 came into my apartment on May 9th, that day.

3 Q. Could you recall their names now?

4 A. Two of them were Bosniaks; one was called Dzemo Skobalj. I didn't

5 know him personally, but I knew him from Croatian television because he

6 was a member of the Croatian army already in 1992 and had taken part in

7 the fighting around Dubrovnik. The second was called Galic [phoen] --

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

9 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, the screen did not pick up the name the

10 witness just indicated. Two of these individuals were Bosniaks. One was

11 called, and the transcript does not give the name of that person. Could

12 we get that spelled for the record, please.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. You could clear it up.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

15 Q. Could you spell the name of the person you just named now, who was

16 a Muslim and you knew him before.

17 A. The first person I knew is -- it's D-Z-E-M-O S-K-O-B-A-L-J.

18 Q. And the second one?

19 A. I didn't know the second person's name, but I knew that his last

20 name was Orucevic, O-R-U-C-E-V-I-C.

21 Q. Do you know the position he occupied at that time in the HVO?

22 A. I think they were members of the special units of the HVO.

23 Q. Okay. Were you taken to Velez stadium as well, along with other

24 civilians and Muslims, on that day?

25 A. Of course. This covered vehicle, which could really fit only ten

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1 people in it, received 35 of us, and that included myself and my brother.

2 Q. And what happened, then, by the end of the day?

3 A. The vehicle went straight to the Velez stadium, entered this

4 facility and came right up to the grassy area. There were hundreds of

5 people on this grassy area, women, children, who had been brought in

6 earlier perhaps from some other parts of the city. We were just told

7 briefly to get out and to join those people.

8 My brother and I were in such a position in that vehicle that we

9 could only come out amongst the very last. Since we were the first ones

10 to go inside the vehicle, so then we were amongst the last to come out.

11 When it was my turn - I was already at the door of the vehicle - I heard

12 the driver talking with my brother, and they called me to come back into

13 the vehicle. The driver was wearing full military equipment. He had a

14 helmet. His face was painted with some kind of paint so that neither I

15 nor my brother recognised him. But he had obviously recognised my

16 brother - perhaps he was with him in the same unit - because he called him

17 by name. And he said that we shouldn't leave the vehicle, that he would

18 take us back to the command of my brother's unit, and that if we did leave

19 the vehicle, it was a question whether we would ever come out alive. And

20 this is what happened.

21 Q. So you had the possibility of getting home on that day?

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... go home?

25 A. Yes. My brother reported to the commander and his deputy in an

Page 2931

1 attempt to find out why he was taken away, and he just told us, "Go

2 straight home. Don't go out anywhere, don't look out of your windows.

3 Sit and wait. Something bad is happening." That was all. And then we

4 ended up at our apartment.

5 Q. Do you know what happened to the people who were kept at the Velez

6 stadium on that day?

7 A. Those people, amongst whom were a lot of my relatives because I

8 have a very large family and my family has been living in Mostar for 400

9 years, they mostly ended up at the Heliodrom camp, the HVO camp at

10 Heliodrom. Some went to other camps. Nobody was returned home from the

11 stadium.

12 Q. How long were they kept in the Heliodrom camp? I mean, for

13 example, your relatives who were arrested.

14 A. They were kept there between five and fifteen days.

15 Q. And what other events were happening in Mostar after the 9th of

16 May? I mean now, first of all, the confrontation line. When did it

17 appear in Mostar?

18 A. The confrontation line was practically established with the attack

19 of the HVO, because except for the command of the 4th Corps, which

20 remained completely encircled in the western part of Mostar and where all

21 the soldiers and the officers were captured, the other units of the army

22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina remained on the other side of the street. The

23 name of the street is "Bulevar," and it divides the town of Mostar in two

24 because it goes down the middle of it. This is where the HVO established

25 its observation posts, its bunkers and other military fortifications,

Page 2932

1 practically.

2 Q. And what about the civilian authorities at that time in Mostar;

3 did they function after the 9th of May?

4 A. Sir, it's very difficult to talk about civilian authorities in

5 war, knowing that the HVO practically -- is practically a military police,

6 civilian, and all other types of authority.

7 Q. Thank you. Did you live far away from the confrontation line? I

8 don't ask you to give your street, but the area, approximately.

9 A. As the crow flies, it's perhaps about 150 to 180 metres from the

10 line of separation.

11 Q. Could you point it out on the map if I show it to you, just

12 without indicating again the street? Just point out the area you were

13 living in.

14 A. Of course I could show you quite precisely the area and also the

15 line which at that time was the line of separation.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would ask the usher to help me. It's

17 Exhibit Number 11.18. Is it possible to place it on the ELMO?

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, just be careful there. Do not point out the

19 locations of his home.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No.

21 Q. Just the area, you may circle it and mark it with the number "1".

22 A. This area here.

23 Q. Just next to --

24 A. So it's this area here that I'm pointing out.

25 Q. So for the record, this area is close by Centur II. Yes? Is that

Page 2933

1 correct?

2 A. Yes. Yes, that's what that settlement was called.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

4 MR. MEEK: It would be easier, I think, just to go into closed

5 session so that this witness could specifically tell us where he lived,

6 for the record.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's a good idea.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Maybe we'll go into private session.

9 JUDGE LIU: Sure.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2934

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 [Open session]

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

15 Q. And what was happening on the confrontation line? What was its

16 purpose?

17 A. The purpose of all that was to attempt to capture the whole of the

18 city of Mostar by the HVO, so on the line of conflict, the regular units

19 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina were -- practically stopped the

20 further advance of the HVO. And you could say that as things developed,

21 and right until the end of the war, there were many, many attempts to

22 break through this line and to capture the whole of the town, which was

23 absolutely the objective of the HVO.

24 Q. Were there firing and shooting on the confrontation line,

25 sniping? Did you observe it while you were in Mostar in the area where

Page 2935

1 you lived?

2 A. Of course there was a lot of shooting. From the building where my

3 sister lives, and which is about a hundred metres away from my building,

4 from the seventh floor of an abandoned Bosniak apartment, a sniper unit

5 was operating 24 hours a day practically, in shifts. These were people

6 who were certainly not from Mostar. By their accent, it was easy to tell

7 because they would greet each other as they were passing by my sister's

8 apartment, who happens to be married to a Croat. They were operating

9 right above her apartment.

10 A couple of times, I saw them, but it was difficult, as you can

11 imagine, to see other snipers. You could only see the effects of their

12 activity because they operated from well-concealed positions. Shelling

13 was on a daily basis. Part of the line was shelled that was controlled by

14 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Even when there were negotiations

15 about establishing some kind of a cease-fire, which practically never gave

16 any results until March 1994.

17 Q. Did you observe any destruction in Mostar as a result of the

18 shelling on the confrontation line or along the line of defence?

19 A. Sir, I didn't say that only the line of separation was shelled.

20 The left bank of the river was shelled night and day from heavy artillery,

21 heavy weapons. In order for you to have a picture of what that part of

22 the -- that side -- what that bank looked like, we're talking about maybe

23 some four or five kilometres in length and about 300 to 500 metres wide.

24 That's the dimension of the area. So that part of the city was showered

25 by hundreds of shells each day, so that about 90 per cent of the

Page 2936

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Page 2937

1 accommodation facilities were destroyed. All key institutions were either

2 completely destroyed or they -- or were burnt. There was no water, there

3 was no electricity. There was no possibility of extinguishing the

4 buildings that had been set on fire.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you. Your Honour, this set of questions is

6 over. I would like to proceed with another one, but I see that the time

7 of the break is coming up.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it is. We'll resume at 11.30.

9 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

10 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Please continue.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

13 Q. Witness U, do you know which HVO units were running the

14 confrontation line?

15 A. Well, at the confrontation line, the -- practically all the HVO

16 units alternated: the special-purpose units, the units of the military

17 police and the other HVO units. That was basically the situation.

18 Q. Were there any specific areas of responsibility along the

19 confrontation line and some units that were in charge of those areas; do

20 you know that?

21 A. Yes. In the very centre of the city, we can freely say in the

22 most dangerous part of the confrontation line on the Croatian side, one of

23 the -- an area of responsibility -- a part of the area of responsibility,

24 perhaps 400 or 500 metres, were under the control of two special units of

25 the HVO. "The anti-terrorist groups," they were called. One of them was

Page 2938

1 the Benko Penavic group, and the other one was called "Vinko Skrobo" and

2 its commander was Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

3 Q. How did you get this knowledge about the division of the

4 confrontation line?

5 A. Well, I gained that knowledge at the camp of -- the HVO camp at

6 the Heliodrom, because many of my colleagues and members of my family went

7 to the line of the HVO mainly in the part of separation in the city

8 itself, and this is where I got my initial knowledge.

9 Q. Thank you. We will return to this subject a bit later. So you

10 indicated two units, Vinko Skrobo and Benko Penavic. Who was in command

11 of the Benko Penavic unit?

12 A. Mr. Mario -- Mario Milicevic, nicknamed "Bajo."

13 Q. If you can spell this name for the record.

14 A. For both commanders or just for one?

15 Q. For one.

16 A. For the one you know, I suppose. So the commander of Vinko Skrobo

17 was V-I-N-K-O, M-A-R-T-I-N-O-V-I-C. Of the Benko Penavic unit, the

18 commander was M-A-R-I-O, M-I-L-I-C-E-V-I-C. Both had nicknames which were

19 more commonly used, and people referred to them basically by their

20 nicknames.

21 Q. Could you specify the concrete area of responsibility of each of

22 these two commanders?

23 A. Well, Mr. Martinovic's unit was located in the very centre of the

24 city, basically in the area of the Medical Centre. This was a building, a

25 polyclinic, and perhaps in the length of about 180 or 200 metres. South

Page 2939

1 of it, in the unit of Gospin Park and in the direction of the Catholic

2 church, there was the Benko Penavic unit. In the Santic Street, which

3 continues towards the north, different units would alternate. This was an

4 area belonging to the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd HVO Brigade.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Do you know where Vinko Martinovic's base was located at that

7 time?

8 A. As far as I know, it's main base was located in Kalemova Street in

9 a cafe. I think it was called Mali Raj, and it was near a large

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

14 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President. I see that my monitor does not

15 pick up the restaurant this witness just identified, and I wonder if, for

16 the record, that could be cleared up.

17 JUDGE LIU: Is it very important to your knowledge?

18 MR. MEEK: Yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Because I understand that there is some difficulties

20 in picking up all those names by the interpreters and by the typists. All

21 those names will be checked out at night. But since you said it's very

22 important for your knowledge, then we may ask Mr. Prosecutor to clarify.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

24 Q. Witness, could you repeat the name of the restaurant?

25 A. Of course I can.

Page 2940

1 Q. Yes, please.

2 A. The cafe where the base of the Vinko Skrobo unit was located was

3 called Mali Ari in Kalemova Street, and this cafe was probably about 10 or

4 15 metres from the old and large restaurant called Ladovina, Stepan Zubac

5 was the owner, and I believe that Mr. Martinovic's soldiers would be

6 served meals there.

7 Q. And I would like to clarify the name of the street, because we

8 have here Kali Street.

9 A. No, the street's name is Kalemova. It is probably -- it is a

10 combination of "Kale" and "street," and the name of the street is

11 precisely Kalemova. K, it starts with a K.

12 Q. Do you know which building was occupied by Vinko Martinovic

13 himself?

14 A. The -- Vinko Martinovic occupied the Cafe Mali Raj. I think the

15 former owner was called Cisic. This is a cafe at the entrance of the

16 street 70 to 80 metres on the right-hand side. Kalemova Street is a side

17 street which links up two very busy streets, and Kalemova Street is about

18 300, 350 metres long.

19 Q. And what about Benko Penavic's base, where was it located?

20 A. The base of the unit Benko Penavic was at the Central Square, at

21 the roundabout in Mostar called Rondo. It is a roundabout with six

22 streets, two in a triangle, and that is where many Serb -- old Serb houses

23 were located. And in one of those houses, the first of those houses

24 actually, was the base of Benko Penavic. And it was owned by an old Serb

25 family from Mostar called Pesko. I think that those houses had been

Page 2941

1 nationalised following World War II.

2 Q. Are you familiar with the house which belonged before the war to

3 the Kajtaz family?

4 A. Pesko?

5 Q. No, I am talking about Kajtaz family. A different building?

6 A. The family house of the Kajtaz was in Kalemova street, very near

7 the restaurant which housed the Benko Penavic unit. I don't know how this

8 house was confiscated. And now it houses the Consulate of the Republic of

9 Croatia. And Mr. Kajtaz, as far as I know, has been placed in an old

10 people's home in the eastern part of the city, and is trying to get back

11 his house.

12 Q. Now, returning to the situation in Mostar among the civilian

13 population, did HVO authorities allow Muslim civilians to leave the

14 western part of Mostar for the eastern part of Mostar?

15 A. During the conflict, that is following May 9th, seven days later

16 more or less, there were discussions between the military commands of the

17 B and H army and the HVO. The negotiations were very intensive, and it

18 appeared that the situation might calm down. In a short span of time of

19 two or three days, the citizens were able to move from one bank to the

20 other bank by bus. After that, and during the war, they could never do

21 that again.

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... was there a special

23 prohibition of that account or it might be explained by some other

24 reasons?

25 A. Well, war operations were going on, on a permanent basis, and it

Page 2942

1 appeared that the negotiations were not evolving as had been expected.

2 The war operations intensified, and there were no longer any contacts

3 between the citizens of one side and the other side, with the exception of

4 possible visits by the International Red Cross.

5 Q. Witness U, were you ever arrested, I mean really arrested, during

6 the war, apart from the first, let's say, arrest what happened on the 9th

7 of May?

8 A. Of course I was. On June 30th, 1993, I was arrested.

9 Q. And do you associate this day with some other event or only with

10 your arrest?

11 A. On that day, practically all men aged between 18 and 60 were

12 arrested, but afterwards we learned that even younger and older men had

13 been arrested - very few had in fact avoided arrest - and been taken away

14 to prisons. I was personally taken to the camp in Heliodrom, where I

15 remained until December 17th, 1993.

16 Q. What happened in Mostar that such kind of action started precisely

17 on the 30th of June?

18 A. Well, sincerely speaking, this was an expected action of the HVO,

19 because between May 9th and June 30th - I presume this was the end of May,

20 beginning of June - on the local Croatian radio a proclamation was

21 announced, signed by the new commander of the defence of Mostar, Zlatan

22 Mijo Jelic. And from that proclamation, it was stated from that day

23 onwards all apartments gravitating towards the line of separation would be

24 proclaimed a war zone and would be put under the direct command and

25 control of the HVO. In other words, the soldiers of the HVO could enter

Page 2943

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Page 2944

1 any apartment, evict the tenants, and use these apartments for their own

2 needs.

3 Q. Did AbiH undertake any military actions against the HVO after the

4 9th of May?

5 A. Yes. On May 30th, early in the morning, the units of the B and H

6 army attacked and took over very important buildings of the HVO, the

7 Sjeverni Logor Barracks and the region of Bijelo Polje, and in that way

8 established a physical link towards Sarajevo, because until then the city

9 had been totally surrounded, encircled.

10 Q. Witness U, are you sure that it happened in May?

11 A. I think it was the end of May or beginning of June, in around that

12 time. Well, you're talking about the occupation of the barracks. June

13 30th, in the morning hours, the barracks I was referring to and Bijelo

14 Polje, this was the day I had been arrested and the day when many of the

15 Bosniaks living in Mostar had been arrested.

16 Q. Do you remember the circumstances of your arrest of the 30th of

17 June?

18 A. Yes, very well indeed.

19 Q. Please, could you recount what happened to you?

20 A. Of course. Because fighting had intensified that day - I already

21 said that the building in which I lived was not far from the separation

22 line - many bullets found their way there. And at about 11.00, I looked

23 through the balcony, which is on the opposite direct where bullets could

24 not penetrate, and I saw that the entrance of my building -- through the

25 entrance of my building, soldiers were coming in, armed soldiers, with

Page 2945

1 helmets, bulletproof jackets, and I knew what that meant.

2 Q. Do you know to which units those soldiers belonged?

3 A. There were two soldiers that came to my apartment. One of them I

4 knew personally. His name was "Kemo Selmanovic," and he belonged to the

5 KB, the Convicts' Battalion. I didn't know the other soldier, but from

6 his accent in conversations with him, I could conclude that he was a young

7 man from Western Herzegovina.

8 Q. I would like you just to spell the name of the soldier who was

9 familiar to you and --

10 A. Of course. His name was K-E-M-O, S-E-L-M-A-N-O-V-I-C.

11 Q. Thank you. How do you know that he was a member of the special

12 unit?

13 A. Even before the conflict, I was a very good friend of his

14 brother. His brother would tell me that his younger brother, as he

15 expressed himself, was Tuta's soldier. And there were no problems in 1992

16 to know which soldier came from which unit, because the soldiers that

17 belonged to special units like to boast about it. They had, of course,

18 some advantages and privileges.

19 Q. For example, which kind of privileges and advantages that you know

20 they had?

21 A. Well, I can give you some examples. There is one where one

22 soldier belonging to the Vinko Martinovic, Stela, unit as early as 1992,

23 in a cafe, for no reason at all shot dead a Bosniak, Dragan Bojcic, and

24 was in no way held account -- brought to account for this. Had it been a

25 member -- an ordinary member of the HVO, he would have been punished in

Page 2946

1 some way or another. Against this person, no charges were brought, not

2 even any disciplinary measures.

3 Q. Where were you taken after the arrest?

4 A. At the entrance of the building, they already asked for my

5 personal documents. When they established that I was a Bosniak, a Muslim,

6 they told me to go out in front of the building, to be questioned with

7 their boss. When I went down, got in front of the building, I saw about

8 150 -- up to 200 people who were brought to that building. They were

9 rounded up, and I couldn't see any boss there, nor did anyone speak to me

10 on that occasion, nor did I have occasion to address anyone. We were

11 simply told that we should wait there until further notice.

12 Q. Were all the people gathered in that area Muslims?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you see among them any people that were familiar to you

15 before?

16 A. Absolutely. First of all, my neighbours. I said earlier that at

17 the entrance to my building -- that the entrance to my building leads to

18 51 apartments. So practically all those people just from my entrance were

19 taken out, and also an approximate number from other entrances. I knew

20 the majority of those people. They were my closest neighbours.

21 Q. So you were told to wait until further notice. And what was that

22 further notice, if any?

23 A. No, we were just told to wait. It was already 1.00. The date was

24 the 30th of June. The temperature was about 36 to 37 degrees in the

25 shade. We were all standing in the sun. It was very hot.

Page 2947

1 Q. Then where were you taken later in the afternoon or in the

2 evening?

3 A. After about one hour more, so sometime at about 2.30, five buses

4 arrived, and we were told to enter the buses, not to pay attention to the

5 number of seats. A bus has an average number of 50 seats. There were

6 about 70 to 80 of us in each bus. And this first column of five buses,

7 where I was, also set out in the direction of the Heliodrom camp.

8 Precisely speaking, it went to the place called Krusevo. This is where we

9 left the buses and went on foot to the camp.

10 Q. Could you explain what "Heliodrom" means to you? For what

11 purposes was that complex used before the war, for what purposes is it

12 used now?

13 A. The Heliodrom is an enormous space where the former Yugoslav

14 People's Army had its units. It had its helicopter squadrons stationed

15 there, which were quite numerous, as well as the accompanying units,

16 anti-aircraft defence, and some others which protected those facilities.

17 Because in the immediate vicinity is also the Soko factory which

18 manufactured those helicopters.

19 During the war in Mostar between the Croats and the Bosniaks,

20 Heliodrom was used primarily as a location for arrested Bosniaks,

21 civilians, as well as for the accommodation of various HVO units. And it

22 was also the main logistics centre for food -- for food storage in

23 enormous refrigerators, also a facility to cook that food and for its

24 distribution to the front, and so on.

25 Today --

Page 2948

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. -- it is an HVO military base. The 2nd Guards Brigade is situated

3 there, the 2nd Guards Brigade of the HVO.

4 Q. Who received you in Heliodrom?

5 A. We were directed by certain groups of soldiers at the Heliodrom

6 towards a small building which had a somewhat larger office on the ground

7 floor. Each person had to give their particulars in that office, their

8 name, surname, their address, and some other information. And after that,

9 the person would be directed to one of the numerous buildings at the

10 Heliodrom which were used for the accommodation of prisoners.

11 Q. To which cell or area, building, you were taken?

12 A. After our information was taken, I was taken to one of the

13 exercise holes, because earlier, there was a secondary school at the

14 Heliodrom which was used to train pilots. They had two interconnected

15 gyms, sports facilities, and I was taken to one of those holes.

16 Q. How many prisoners were held along with you in the same room?

17 A. When I came, and taking into account both of those holes, which

18 were connected by a corridor, in both of those holes, there was a total

19 of, perhaps, about 500 people. But by the evening, both holes were

20 completely full so that there was a total of 12- to 13-hundred people

21 there. That was the maximum number of people that could fit there.

22 Q. I mean in your room where you were kept.

23 A. The room where I was kept was a smaller room, and there were about

24 600 people there. We were all lying on the floor. We had one blanket

25 each, some kind of cover, and we were lying on the floor, on the parquet.

Page 2949

1 We were lined -- we were lying down next to each other like sardines in a

2 can. It was very, very tight.

3 Q. Which administrative or military body was in charge of Heliodrom?

4 A. It's hard to answer that question precisely because in the

5 beginning, the people who were in a very bad -- who were in very bad

6 health would receive certificates of dismissal or of release after

7 undergoing a medical check. They were released home. Those certificates

8 stated, precisely speaking, the Central Military Prison, Heliodrom. And

9 they would be signed by the commander or the administrator, Zvonimir

10 Vidovic. But before the end, this is something that changed many times.

11 Q. And who were guards in Heliodrom?

12 A. The guards at the Heliodrom were exclusively military police

13 officers, military police officers of the HVO.

14 Q. Could you differentiate them somehow from HVO soldiers from

15 regular troops --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Meek.

17 MR. MEEK: I apologise, Mr. President. But on the last answer,

18 this witness has testified as to who the commander or administrator of the

19 Heliodrom was when he was taken there, and this is an individual that is

20 not showing up on the screen. And for the record, I think it is important

21 that we have the name.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There is some problem.

24 JUDGE LIU: We could go back.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

Page 2950

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Page 2951

1 Q. Could you repeat the name of the commander in the beginning of

2 your stay in Heliodrom?

3 A. Of course, of course I can. The gentleman's name is - and I'll do

4 it letter by letter - was Z-V-O-N-K -- sorry, N-I-M-I-R. There has been a

5 mistake on the screen. "Zvonimir," Z-V-O-N-I-M-I-R, "Zvonimir"

6 V-I-D-O-V-I-C.

7 Q. Now we should return to my next question. That's about military

8 police and soldiers of HVO regular units.

9 A. Yes. There was a difference between them, because the military

10 police officers had broad white belts around their waists and they also

11 wore other -- the other belts that they wore were white, so you could tell

12 them apart from a great distance and you could differentiate between them

13 and the regular soldiers.

14 Q. Thank you. And just to return to your prison mates, could you

15 tell the Court, of what age were prisoners who were kept in Heliodrom, the

16 range of the ages?

17 A. The youngest prisoner in my room was 13 years old. The oldest was

18 about 72 years old. However, afterwards I met even older people, because

19 in the room which was near the room where we went to eat our lunch, I met

20 an old man who was all of 90 years old.

21 Q. And what about female prisoners, if there were any in Heliodrom?

22 A. In the halls where I was for a few days, there was one single

23 woman. Also, there were no women at the school where I was transferred

24 after four or five days. The first female prisoners that I saw were at

25 the central prison. In the attic of the place where I was kept, that

Page 2952

1 whole area, the attic, was for female prisoners.

2 Q. What about the conditions of life of prisoners in Heliodrom?

3 A. The living conditions were very bad, practically unbearable.

4 First, the accommodation, the room where I was held, it said on the door

5 that it was 60 square metres, the size -- that the size was 60 square

6 metres. In that space, there was an average of 60 to 80 prisoners.

7 Sometimes there were even 120. So that means that it was half a square

8 metre per prisoner. The food was as follows: In the morning, there would

9 be a cup of tea without sugar and one slice of bread. And then around

10 7.00 in the evening, the main meal, one tin of fish divided amongst four

11 prisoners or a few spoons of some cooked mixture which, frankly speaking,

12 looked like anything but food. The only thing that there was enough of

13 was water.

14 Q. What about medical assistance in Heliodrom?

15 A. A doctor came once a week who was himself a prisoner. Usually,

16 that would be in the evening. Before that, you would have to report to

17 the person on duty, the military police officer on duty, that you wanted

18 to go to see the doctor and why you wanted to go.

19 Q. Did any representatives of HVO authorities ever visit Heliodrom?

20 A. Some representatives of the HVO authorities did come.

21 Q. For example, whom do you remember?

22 A. I remember very well that seven or eight days after I came to the

23 camp, when I was already transferred to the school, in the afternoon we

24 were visited by the minister of the Republic of Croatia, Dr. Slobodan

25 Lang, and the chief of the sanitation services of the HV, Dr. Ivan

Page 2953

1 Bagaric.

2 Q. Did they promise to improve the situation in which the prisoners

3 were held?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. But was that promise ever kept?

6 A. No. Unfortunately, the situation was getting worse each day.

7 Q. Did you ever see representatives of international humanitarian

8 organisations in Heliodrom?

9 A. Yes. Perhaps after about four or five months, sometime in the

10 late autumn, they began to visit from the International Red Cross to

11 register the prisoners and also to bring some essential items like

12 shampoos or -- shampoos against parasites or lice which, due to the bad

13 hygienic conditions, had begun to spread among the prisoners.

14 Q. What do you think; were those visits sort of surprise visits or

15 were they announced before?

16 A. No, there were no sudden, unannounced visits allowed. These were

17 visits which were announced in advance each time. At least that is what

18 they told us. And to our questions, why they appeared so late, they told

19 us that their conversations with the HVO about visits were not -- were

20 proceeding with difficulty, and it was only their persistence that allowed

21 them to come and visit us even at such a late stage.

22 Q. Were representatives of international organisations allowed to any

23 facilities of the Heliodrom complex, I mean, designed for prisoners?

24 A. No, they were not permitted at all to go and visit the rooms in

25 the basement where the prisoners were held and who were completely

Page 2954

1 isolated from other prisoners. There was a large number of foreigners

2 among those prisoners. I remember one American, two Frenchmen, two

3 Germans and some others.

4 Q. What about parts of the Heliodrom where female prisoners were

5 held; were they allowed there or not?

6 A. I think that after a while, after the visit to, let's say, the

7 male section, the International Red Cross went also to visit the female

8 prisoners. But I think that the female prisoners were very strictly

9 guarded to prevent visits to them by foreign TV stations, who had often

10 visited the Heliodrom.

11 Q. Witness U, did you see any military units deployed in Heliodrom?

12 A. Yes, there were numerous HVO units deployed at the Heliodrom,

13 because this is an enormous space, the size practically of a small town.

14 Q. Do you remember any specific units deployed in Heliodrom? I mean

15 HVO units.

16 A. I saw many members. Very often, I saw members of a unit called

17 "Bruno Busic," members of the Croatian army, and members of the military

18 police, which certainly had a larger unit there in order to secure the

19 entire complex. But certain HVO units had their logistics centres there

20 where they kept food, repaired their weaponry, their motor vehicles, and

21 so on. So that when I looked out of the window from the building where I

22 was being kept, I saw soldiers from all of those units, but I don't know

23 which other units were also deployed there.

24 I think that one anti-terrorist group, I think it was called the

25 ATG Baja Kraljevic, from Siroki Brijeg was there, at least if not

Page 2955

1 permanently, then I think it was there at least for a while deployed at

2 the Heliodrom.

3 Q. Do you know Kraljevic?

4 A. Yes. Its commander was Predrag Mandic, called "Lija." He was a

5 citizen of Siroki Brijeg.

6 Q. Will you spell the full name of the commander because, again, it's

7 not in the record.

8 A. Of course. Of course. P-R-E-D-R-A-G M-A-N-D-I-C.

9 Q. And his nickname?

10 A. L-I-J-A. Fox. L-i-j-a, yes, that's right.

11 Q. Sorry. You just mentioned that you saw some members of the

12 Croatian army in Heliodrom. Could you --

13 A. Yes, on several occasions.

14 Q. From which unit of the Croatian army?

15 A. From the 1st Guards Brigade of the regular army of the Republic of

16 Croatia, which was called Tigrovi, "Tigers." And from the 2nd Guards

17 Brigade of the regular Croatian army, which were nicknamed Gromovi,

18 "Thunders." And earlier, there was a unit the size of a brigade from

19 Osijek, the name of which I do not know exactly.

20 Q. Just returning again to the record, this line 17, the first letter

21 "M" in the full name Predrag Mandic is missing, Mandic?

22 A. Yes, Predrag. Mandic, not Mandac.

23 Q. It must not be a double D. After D-R in his first name.

24 A. Yes, there's a mistake. P-R-E-D-R-A-G.

25 Q. And what kind of functions did those HV units fulfil while staying

Page 2956

1 in the Heliodrom?

2 A. This unit from Osijek arrived in mid-July while I was detained at

3 school. With its available artillery, it tried to sever the

4 communications between the city of Mostar, the centre, and the Blagaj

5 settlement, which is 10 kilometres to the south. That was probably their

6 objective, to cut those communications in order to cut off the southern

7 area, the southern part from the town.

8 Q. Do you know if these or other HV units were involved in military

9 operations in the territory of Mostar or close to Mostar?

10 A. Of course. Of course. This unit was on combat activity all day

11 in the direction of Mostar, the southern exit of Mostar. And it had

12 considerable support from artillery weapons; however, for some reason,

13 things turned badly for them. And we found out later that they suffered

14 large losses. They withdrew from their positions and disappeared in an

15 unknown direction. I think they had 50 of their soldiers killed that

16 day.

17 Q. Did you have any personal conversations with the members of the

18 Croat army?

19 A. I spent two full months as a prisoner, as a captive, working in a

20 unit of the Croatian army which was stationed at the Heliodrom, but I

21 worked in a unit which was a mixed mortar battery. I worked continually

22 for two months in that unit every day from 8.00 in the morning to 7.00 at

23 night, every day. I cleaned the officers' and the soldiers' rooms,

24 cleaned the bathrooms, cooked some food for them. Mostly, I made coffee,

25 and I talked a lot with them.

Page 2957

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Page 2958

1 Q. You worked inside the Heliodrom complex?

2 A. No. This was about 6 kilometres outside of the Heliodrom

3 complex. We went out in their trucks.

4 Q. Just to clarify, to which unit did these soldiers belong? I mean

5 the soldiers for whom you were performing some job.

6 A. I think this was the 3rd battalion of the 2nd brigade of the

7 regular army of the Republic of Croatia, Gromovi. The command was located

8 at the Heliodrom, and they would take us every morning to work,

9 6 kilometres away from Heliodrom, to their positions where these mortar

10 batteries were located. And they would bring us back at 7.00 in the

11 evening.

12 Q. Do you remember if other prisoners were also taken outside of

13 Heliodrom?

14 A. A very large number. The smallest number of prisoners worked at

15 the Heliodrom itself.

16 Q. For what purposes were they taken outside of Heliodrom?

17 A. The most frequent reason for this, for taking them away from the

18 Heliodrom, was to go to the front line of the HVO Defence where they

19 mainly repaired or built new bunkers, fortifications of the lines, and

20 other jobs. But 90 percent of these jobs were actually done on those

21 facilities. The remaining -- the other cases of taking people away from

22 the Heliodrom was to take people to paint someone else's houses, to repair

23 it, to cut wood and other business. Every prisoner, in other words, had a

24 job to perform.

25 Q. You were involved in this kind of forced labour on the

Page 2959

1 confrontation line? I mean you, personally.

2 A. I wasn't. Me and my older brother, there were nine members of my

3 family at the Heliodrom. For some reason or other, we were forbidden to

4 go out, to work outside the premises of the Heliodrom. It was only when

5 the Croatian army came, then this provision was no longer valid. It was

6 only two months during my entire stay at the Heliodrom that I worked for

7 the Croatian army.

8 Q. And how did this procedure of taking prisoners for forced labour

9 work in Heliodrom?

10 A. There was no particular time. Each time when the heavy metal door

11 was heard leading to our -- the place where we were accommodated, all the

12 prisoners from all three large rooms had to go to the corridor and line

13 up, looking at the floor. The military police or the representatives of

14 some of the units who required some prisoners chose a certain number of

15 prisoners, the prisoners that they wished. And this happened during the

16 entire 24 hours of the day, round the clock, and very frequently even

17 after midnight.

18 Q. Do you remember any people that were familiar to you and who were

19 taking prisoners for forced labour?

20 A. Of course I remember. I remember many prisoners. Out of the

21 60 -- all of the 60 or 70 people in my room had to go to forced labour.

22 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. You haven't understood me rightly. I'm

23 asking about people who were taking prisoners for forced labour. You

24 mentioned that there were military police representatives and some other

25 people who entered Heliodrom and used to take prisoners for forced

Page 2960

1 labour. I asked: Who were those people who were taking prisoners, if you

2 remember any of the names?

3 A. Of course the members of practically all the HVO units would come

4 for the prisoners. The misunderstanding was the members of the military

5 police only took them out of the building and handed them over to the

6 people who required prisoners. For instance, the Vinko Skrobo unit, the

7 Benko Penavic unit, and all the other HVO units would take prisoners, so

8 that sometimes at some moments during the day, even more than 80 per cent

9 of the prisoners had to perform forced labour. And of course I remember

10 the names of the persons that would come. Sometimes they simply entered

11 the rooms and chose -- and usually chose the stronger persons because they

12 had to do heavy-duty labour. I can perhaps mention some of the names of

13 these persons that would come.

14 Q. Please, if you can, if you remember.

15 A. Of course. From the 1st Battalion of the 2nd HVO Brigade, from

16 the Bojna prison, there was a young man by the name of Drazen Sunjic who

17 would come frequently.

18 Q. Please spell his first name and full name.

19 A. Yes. D-R-A-Z-E-N, S-U-N-J-I-C. And the other young man that

20 would take the -- to take these people to the unit, probably from the

21 Benko Penavic or Vinko Skrobo units, (redacted)

22 (redacted). His name was Miro Primorac. In other words,

23 M-I-R-O, P-R-I-M-O-R-A-C [realtime transcript read in error

24 "P-R-A-I-M-O-R-A-C"]. I saw on a number of occasions one of the people

25 who -- that was very close to Mr. Martinovic, whose name was "Dubravko

Page 2961

1 Pehar."

2 Q. Please spell it again.

3 A. D-U-B-R-A-V-K-O, P-E-H-A-R [realtime transcript read in error

4 "D-E-H-A-R"]. There's something wrong here. I shall repeat. P-E-H-A-R.

5 Q. So it is pronounced "Pehar"; correct?

6 A. "Pehar", that is right.

7 Q. If we can return to -- you gave one name like "Primorac," if I'm

8 not mistaken.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. We have a spelling mistake here on line 43. We have here

11 "Praimorac."

12 A. "Primorac" is the name.

13 Q. So the "A" before the "I" should be removed. Do you remember,

14 Witness U, if there were any wounded or killed among prisoners who were

15 taken to perform forced labour?

16 A. Of course. There was a large number of wounded, especially in

17 periods -- in some periods. I remember the night of 30th to 31st of

18 August, 1993, when in my room alone 20 wounded persons were brought. And

19 according to the stories of the other prisoners, on that particular night

20 there were 10 or 11 persons killed and over 150 wounded, only on that

21 night, on that night alone, this -- one of the attempts of the HVO to go

22 through the separation line in the city, to penetrate that line.

23 Q. Witness U, another question that is about the manner in which

24 prisoners were treated by the guards and other people who had access to

25 Heliodrom.

Page 2962

1 A. The treatment by the guards was, generally speaking, bad. Quite

2 sincerely, this depended from one man to another. There were people

3 who availed themselves of every opportunity to do ill to the prisoners, to

4 provoke them, to humiliate them, to offend them. There were also good

5 guys who comforted us, told us that it would all end, and who offered us

6 cigarettes and bread, too.

7 Q. Do you remember if any other military people from HVO had access

8 to Heliodrom, I mean apart from military police who were officially

9 guarding you?

10 A. I believe that all the soldiers of the HVO, especially the

11 commanders, had every possibility to enter the Heliodrom.

12 Q. Thank you. Do you remember a prisoner whose name was

13 "Haramandzic"?

14 A. Could you please repeat the name?

15 Q. "Haramandzic" [realtime transcript read in error "Her Mandzic"].

16 A. Yes. I thought that you had said "Mandzic." Haramandzic, yes, I

17 remember him very well. We were acquaintances for many years and

18 friends.

19 Q. Yes. I see again here in the minutes we have "Her Mandzic."

20 A. His name was H-A-R-A-M-A-N-D-Z-I-C, "Haramandzic."

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: This will not be a very long question, but I

22 would ask Your Honour to go into private session because our witness may

23 give a name of a person who may be called as a witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

Page 2963

1 Q. So what happened then --

2 JUDGE LIU: Wait.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry, sorry.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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Page 2964

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Page 2967

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll adjourn until 2.30.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

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Page 2968

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Meek.

3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President and Your Honours, I just want to take a

4 moment of your time and ask you if, immediately prior to recess today at

5 4.00, if I could have one minute of your time before you leave on an issue

6 concerning the physical health of my client.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, you mean you'll talk to me in the court?

8 MR. MEEK: Yes, in the court. All three of Your Honours, before

9 you go to chambers this afternoon, in open court I would just like a

10 moment of your time before you recess today. In open court, Your Honour,

11 yes. That's all.

12 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Yes. Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

14 Q. Witness U, when were you released from Heliodrom?

15 A. There are two dates. I was released on the 15th of December,

16 1993, through a humanitarian German agency which released people of mixed

17 marriages. And since my wife is a Serb, I was in the selection of those

18 who were released from the Heliodrom, and we received assurances that we

19 could go to a third country. However, since my family was on the left

20 bank, I applied to go to the left bank, but the bus brought us to the

21 western part of town and they simply left us there on the street.

22 Luckily, there were offices of the International Red Cross nearby, so we

23 asked them either to return us to where we came -- either to take us to

24 where we were supposed to go or to take us back to the prison, which they

25 managed to do. So in fact we were returned to the prison at Heliodrom.

Page 2969

1 And then on the 18th, again I was released, and I arrived on the left bank

2 in Mostar.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would like to go into private

4 session for some minutes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Is there any particular reason for that?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, because now we'll talk about our witness

7 postwar, following the war, his occupation, and it may reveal his

8 identity.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go into the private session.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

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Page 2970

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

24 Q. Witness U, somewhere in the middle of your testimony, you

25 mentioned that you had known Stela or Vinko Martinovic before the war.

Page 2976

1 Could you expand a little bit on this issue, if you really knew him pretty

2 well and his family as well?

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. Did you know about some criminal proceedings against Stela when he

10 was a young man?

11 A. Well, I knew as much as his friends knew, the company he kept. I

12 knew that he had some problems because of minor misdemeanours and that he

13 ended up at the correctional facility in Stolac. But I'm not really

14 expert in that area, so I don't know whether he was tried or not. But I

15 know that Mr. Martinovic, in his early youth, was quite a lively young man

16 and, unfortunately, he was prone to minor criminal acts, and that is why

17 he ended up in a juvenile correctional facility.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you. Your Honour, I have completed my

19 examination-in-chief. In the end, I would ask you -- I would like to

20 tender into evidence Exhibit Number 11.18 under the seal.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll come to this stage later. I think the

22 number should be another number, because this evidence is marked by the

23 witness himself.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The correct number is P11.18/2.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 2977

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, sir.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. Let me introduce myself. I am Kresimir Krsnik, and I am the

8 Defence counsel of the accused Mladen Naletilic. I will be asking you

9 questions. As I warn every witness, I try to pose very concise questions

10 in order to receive a very concise answer, so please do not go into any

11 interpretations but respond as precisely as possible to my questions.

12 A. Very well.

13 Q. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that we should go into --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I agree.

Page 2978

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Page 2979

1 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Private session.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise.

3 [Private session]

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Page 2986

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to warn all those --

16 those who receive the document, the lower part has nothing to do with the

17 upper part. We forgot to cut it off. There was a big crowd at the

18 photocopying machine, and we were not able to eliminate the lower part of

19 the text. We only have one photocopying machine for all the lawyers.

20 If you allow me, I would like to ask the witness whether he

21 recalls this document.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember it. I don't see my

23 signature there, and this is not a usual way of greetings in the

24 document.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

Page 2987

1 Q. On the left-hand side, "JJ/AIH," does that mean anything to you?

2 A. No, nothing.

3 Q. On the left, it says: "Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

4 B and H Army, Military Unit, Defence of the Republic." It says --

5 A. Please read it as it is written. It says "Obrana," not "Odbrana."

6 Q. "Defence of the Republic, Military Secret, Classified. Proposal

7 for the cover of the intelligence service of Mostar."

8 "Second Department," you said you didn't know what the second

9 department was. I will now read, and perhaps that will remind you.

10 "The chief and the operatives of the Intelligence Operative

11 Centre, Mostar, thought about some kind of activity in order to conceal or

12 cover the work and the activity of this centre. In view of the fact that

13 Mostar is a very specific environment and a town which has undergone

14 double aggression, i.e., aggression first by the SCA and then a bloody

15 one-year aggression by the HVO and the HV, and also having in mind that

16 both the aggressors are still quite close to the town, and that also in

17 the city itself, on various pretexts, there are thousands of foreigners,

18 i.e., that there are already many intelligence services of European

19 countries in the town itself, believe that the cover for the work of the

20 intelligence department centre in Mostar could most favourably be provided

21 by the forming of an agency for the search of missing persons during

22 combat operations. This agency would be of a humanitarian character,

23 i.e., it would be searching for all missing persons from this area without

24 charging for its services, and it would be financed by contributions and

25 donations. There is a need for this, because the vast number of people

Page 2988

1 from this area, there is no information other than that they have been

2 displaced throughout the world. Many of them have probably been killed,

3 and a large number is currently in Chetnik jails and jails of the HVO. We

4 would try not only to make this agency official, but we would also include

5 it in the network of similar humanitarian agencies throughout Europe,

6 which would provide the ideal possibility to the operatives and those

7 working with the agency, cooperating with it, i.e., the intelligence

8 department of the Mostar centre."

9 A. I apologise, but I am receiving a French translation in my

10 headphones. I just wanted to let you know.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. I think we stopped at the

12 place:

13 "... the intelligence department of the Mostar centre, to travel

14 to all regions of interest to us. This would enable them, using the ID of

15 the agency, which we would try to obtain international verification for,

16 so this would provide them access to all places of interest for strong

17 reasons, i.e., the search of missing or allegedly missing persons. For a

18 start, we would gather a large amount of data about missing persons, which

19 is not difficult because this data already exists in certain literature.

20 And after processing this information, we would make a plan to tour all

21 the places of interest, of course from the military intelligence aspect.

22 Such work would provide the opportunity also to develop a network of

23 cooperation in the area of former Yugoslavia and broader.

24 Kindly respond to this brief proposal, and if necessary we can

25 elaborate the proposal with many more details.

Page 2989

1 "Best regards, M. S."

2 I would now request that we go into the private session, please.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll go into private session. Mr. Krsnik, that's

4 quite a long paragraph.

5 MR. KRSNIK: Sorry. [Interpretation] Your Honour, had I had the

6 time, we would have obtained a translation.

7 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

8 [Private session]

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12 [Open session]

13 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber, if the witness is

14 finished for today, I would wait until he leaves before I make my

15 statements to the Trial Chamber.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. The usher may take the witness out.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

19 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber, Your Honours, thank

20 you very much. It has come to my attention today, and we have brought

21 this matter to the attention of the Trial Chamber almost two weeks ago,

22 and that is my client is suffering from a very bad infection on his

23 tooth. This infection now has gone up to his sinuses.

24 Almost two weeks ago, Your Honour, Mr. President, indicated, after

25 speaking with the registrar, that he would have an appointment with a

Page 3004

1 dentist. We just found out today he has no appointment, has not had an

2 appointment with the dentist. But the registrar tells us that Thursday

3 morning at 11.00 a.m., he will have an appointment with the dentist. We

4 want to -- and we're not saying that it's anybody's fault, but we cannot

5 understand why this problem cannot be taken care of.

6 He has been on antibiotics. However, because of his heart

7 problem, the infection in his tooth, if it spreads - which we believe it

8 has spread to his sinus area - if it spreads to his heart, he could die.

9 We do not want to stop Mr. Naletilic from having his dentist appointment

10 on Thursday at 11.00 a.m. We want to make sure that he has that

11 appointment. However, we do not waive the right for Mr. Naletilic to be

12 absent from these proceedings. We want him and he wants to be here, and

13 he needs to be here for these proceedings. So we request that on

14 Thursday, that we take some breaks to allow Mr. Naletilic to go to the

15 dentist's office, have his work done, and then returned to the courtroom

16 and resume the proceedings at that time. We respectfully request that.

17 We believe that Mr. Naletilic has every absolute fundamental right

18 to be present at all critical junctures in the proceedings, and the trial

19 is a critical juncture, obviously, in this proceeding, and we do not

20 believe that he should be absent. So we're only merely requesting that on

21 this Thursday, this Honourable Trial Chamber recesses while this work is

22 completed. Otherwise, we are afraid that they will bring him to court

23 Thursday morning and then he will not see the dentist again, and it will

24 be another two weeks and matters will deteriorate further. That's my

25 concern, Your Honours.

Page 3005

1 I would also like to say that Mr. Naletilic has expressed to us

2 specifically today, more so than yesterday but today especially, he's in

3 much pain. He has been taken off any pain medication. For some reason,

4 they are not giving him any pain medication, and he needs his pain

5 medication. Without his pain medication, it is very hard for him to

6 follow these proceedings, to assist counsel in listening to and collating

7 the information coming from the witness stand so as to be able to alert

8 Defence counsel to any possible questions that might be asked in

9 cross-examination. We do not know why he is not receiving his pain

10 medication until the date that he can see the dentist and have this

11 problem taken care of. We do not -- I don't want to belabour this any

12 longer, but these are very serious matters, Your Honour, especially with

13 the heart condition with which Mr. Naletilic suffers.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Meek, for bringing this matter to our

15 attention. As a matter of fact, this Trial Chamber has looked into this

16 matter and instructed the registrar to make dentist appointments for your

17 client. And I saw Mr. Scott standing.

18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I feel I have to respond to a

19 couple of points.

20 First of all, the Prosecution has never been anything less than

21 supportive of any bona fide health concerns raised by the Defence, and

22 that continues to be the case.

23 Having said that, Your Honours, we are concerned. The witnesses

24 who come here also have certain rights and, I think, should be treated

25 fairly. And we have witnesses who are here, and some of them have now

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Page 3007

1 come here and stayed for a long time. We have scheduled four additional

2 witnesses for the balance of this week. As the Chamber knows, we're not

3 in session next week. That means that if we do not finish these witnesses

4 by the end of this week, we have the situation of sending these witnesses

5 back, and they may or may not come back in the future.

6 Now, in terms of the cross-examination, far be it from me to tell

7 Mr. Krsnik how to conduct his cross-examination. However, if he wants to

8 allocate 25 minutes of his time talking about Muslim versus Bosniak

9 religion and all those sorts of things, I submit to you that should not be

10 done at the expense of the witnesses who come to The Hague to testify, and

11 that has to be allocated against his reasonable amount of

12 cross-examination time.

13 Further, further, if there is going to be a break in the trial

14 schedule on Thursday because of these health issues, then we would have no

15 choice - and my apologies to the Chamber if it causes any inconvenience -

16 we would have no choice but to then seek to make up that time by going

17 into court -- by holding court on Thursday evening and as late on Friday

18 as necessary to complete these four witnesses so they can return to Bosnia

19 without being required to come back again. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek.

21 MR. MEEK: May it please the Trial Chamber. And no disrespect to

22 my learned friend on the other side, my question was about the tooth

23 problem of my client. Now, in the country which I come from, and I think

24 that in this country also, my client can see a dentist in the evening. My

25 client can see a dentist at 5.00 or 5.30. He doesn't have to see a

Page 3008

1 dentist in the middle of the day.

2 And I also, Your Honour, believe that it's inappropriate for

3 Mr. Scott to comment on Mr. Krsnik's cross-examination, especially when

4 his cross-examination is about a relevant point, and that is language.

5 You understand, everybody here understands, that the Prosecution has made

6 allegations in this indictment alleging certain things about the language

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croatian language, and we have to address those

8 in cross-examination.

9 I understand that this last witness has been a problematic

10 witness. Now, the problems stemming from this witness may be two-fold,

11 three-fold, or more. But from where I sit, I see a witness who doesn't

12 wait for a question to be finished but starts the answer. So I don't

13 believe it's a one-way street, and I believe that the Trial Chamber also

14 sees it that way. If Mr. Scott believes that this is not a bona fide

15 problem, please let him tell the Trial Chamber why he thinks that my

16 client's tooth problem and infection and heart problem is not serious.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Seric.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I just

19 want to say two sentences.

20 Your Honours, my learned friend Scott has touched upon a very

21 important point regarding cross-examination. If my learned friend Krsnik

22 did not ask questions which pertain to facts, and the context in which

23 Croatia invaded Bosnia and Herzegovina, imposed its language, imposed its

24 currency, and also imposed its culture by destroying monuments, if my

25 colleague Krsnik did not pose such questions, I, myself, or my colleague

Page 3009

1 Par would ask these questions. So if Mr. Krsnik covers these questions --

2 if he didn't cover these questions, we would cover them.

3 If the Prosecution has a problem with that, then they can just

4 delete it from the indictment, and then our job would be done.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, after hearing the views from both sides,

6 especially after the request from Mr. Meek concerning your client's

7 healthiness, this Trial Chamber will make its decision concerning the

8 further proceedings, especially on Thursday, at a later stage. Maybe

9 tomorrow morning.

10 We have to adjourn at this moment.

11 Yes, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: I want to thank you very much, Mr. President and

13 Your Honours. I only have one other question, and maybe it's to the

14 registrar. Mr. Scott was nice enough to deliver to me an order and search

15 warrant on the Tobacco Station in Siroki Brijeg dated -- issued 18th of

16 September, 1998. However, Mr. Scott indicated he believed that the

17 information which was delivered to Judge May in order for him to find

18 probable cause to sign this document, this search warrant, it may be under

19 seal.

20 I'm just asking for directions from either the registrar or from

21 the Trial Chamber as to where I might be able to obtain those documents so

22 that I can adequately prepare arguments to this Trial Chamber as to why

23 these documents should not be admitted; or, if I read those documents,

24 perhaps I won't make that argument.

25 JUDGE LIU: We have to make an inquiry before we give you a proper

Page 3010

1 answer.

2 So we are adjourned until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

4 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Wednesday, the 26th day of September, 2001,

6 at 9.30 a.m.

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