Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3197

1 Friday, 28 September 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case

8 Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS W [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness W. I'm just going to caution you again,

15 please, because of the protections that have been granted to you, not to

16 use your name, or names of family names, that sort of information which

17 might identify you.

18 Witness, we left off yesterday afternoon, you were on the bus to

19 Ljubuski. You said at one point the bus stopped, I believe, somewhere

20 around Krcine, and you said that the HVO soldiers fired their guns over

21 your heads. Is that correct?

22 A. It is.

23 Q. I'm sorry, I don't think your response came through. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 3198

1 Q. Witness, I was going to ask you - I was asked by Translation, if I

2 can say, yesterday afternoon - if you could speak up and be a bit more

3 clear, it would help us.

4 Did they do anything else? Did the soldiers make you at that

5 point do anything else after the shots were fired? Did some of the

6 prisoners have to do anything else?

7 A. At that moment, there (redacted)

8 (redacted) They were simply taking it out on

9 people in different ways, (redacted)

10 Q. And were several of the prisoners beaten while the bus was stopped

11 at that time?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Among those that you just named, who was particularly or most

15 severely beaten?

16 A. (redacted)

17 Q. My apologies. Can you just say for a moment a bit more about what

18 (redacted) How was he treated, what happened, how did he

19 get back on the bus?

20 A. (redacted) Some water was poured

21 on him. But then when he came to a little, they again beat him thoroughly

22 until a car came to pull out the bus. And when the bus came, they

23 carried (redacted)

24 Q. And what happened next? You're back on the bus now. What

25 happened next on your way to Ljubuski?

Page 3199

1 A. We came out at Sovicka Vrata, and they stopped the bus and took

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted) the bus, but he was completely

4 unconscious when he was carried into the bus. And then those guards who

5 had guarded us previously got there, and we used what little water there

6 was on the bus to (redacted), and he came to. And they kept telling

7 us tales on our further way to Ljubuski that they were doing this

8 according to some Dayton Accords, that it was no propaganda and all that.

9 And when we arrived in Ljubuski, they put us in that prison.

10 Q. Now, before you get to Ljubuski itself, you say the bus stopped

11 somewhere near Sovicka Vrata, and was there a changing of the guard around

12 that point, so to speak?

13 A. I have already said that the guards changed and another four

14 boarded the bus, and we set off to Ljubuski.

15 Q. Now, help the Chamber, please, so the record is clear. All the

16 things that you have talked about, in terms of the forced singing of

17 songs, the beating, the chewing of bullets, these were all happening

18 during the first set of guards; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, the first set, Roba and his team.

20 Q. Do you know what unit those men, this first set of guards, came

21 from, what HVO unit were they?

22 A. All I know is that Roba was there. And as far as I could see,

23 they were all Tuta's -- rather, Mr. Tuta's soldiers.

24 Q. Now, is it correct, sir, that you and the others arrived at

25 Ljubuski on about the 19th of April, about 5.00 in the morning?

Page 3200

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We are not going to spend a great deal of time on your stay at

3 Ljubuski, sir, but is it fair to say --

4 MR. SCOTT: And I am leading here, Mr. President, just on some

5 background matters about Ljubuski that don't touch on either of the

6 accused.

7 Q. You were placed there in various cells at a police station. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There were 10 or 11 cells in what had been, appeared to you, a

11 former horse stables?

12 A. Some of the policemen were saying that in the former Yugoslavia,

13 it was horse stables, and they were then turned into cells until the new

14 police station was built. And then these were abandoned, but they were

15 put back in use when they had to put us there.

16 Q. And these cells were approximately five or six metres long, and

17 two or three metres wide. Is that correct?

18 A. Two metres wide and five or six long. There was a passage in

19 front of those cells.

20 Q. Can you tell us, please, briefly the name of the warden, if you

21 will, or the person in charge of that prison facility, as far as you knew?

22 A. The one who brought us there and the rest was called Prlic.

23 Q. Can you possibly spell that name, please, just so we have it

24 accurately in the record, please, if you can?

25 A. No, the man was called Prlic, P-R-L-I-C.

Page 3201

1 Q. All right.

2 Now, did you meet another guard while at Ljubuski? And I

3 understand that you do not wish to mention his name, if possible. But did

4 you meet another guard at Ljubuski who provided you some information?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. And did he provide you any particular information on things that

7 he had learned about what had happened in Sovici after you left?

8 A. When I left Sovici -- rather, not only I, when we were expelled

9 from Sovici, and women and children and old, impotent men were expelled,

10 one of the policemen, and I would rather not mention his name, he told me

11 that he was one of the escorts for those of us who had stayed behind in

12 Sovici, to escort them to Gornji Vakuf, and he said that the village had

13 been burned to the ground, that he had escorted women and children over

14 the mountain towards Makljen.

15 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether he said anything to you about

16 some Muslim men being killed near the Sovici school?

17 A. Yes. Once, as I went to the tobacco station for some unloading,

18 he told me that four had been killed in front of a school.

19 Q. Do you recall the names of these four persons?

20 A. Yes, it was Salem Skampo, Hasan Rados, Ekrem Tasic, and Ismet

21 Cilic.

22 Q. I'm just following the transcript to see how it's coming across.

23 MR. SCOTT: Some of them are correct, and I won't take the time to

24 ask the witness to spell them. They have come across in the transcript

25 correctly, at least two of them have.

Page 3202

1 Q. One man, Hasan, did you say last name Rados, R-a-d-o-s?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And Ismet Cilic, C-i-l-i-c?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, when you were in Ljubuski, did anyone come -- do you recall

6 any occasions when anyone came to take a group of you to do some work or

7 labour?

8 A. Men from those units came and took our groups, and we went to

9 fortifications from Popovo Polje to the Buna.

10 Q. Can you tell the Chamber whether one of the men who was on the bus

11 that you have named so far in your testimony, did one of those men come to

12 Ljubuski at some point and ask to take a group of you somewhere?

13 A. It was after the Red Cross registered us. A few days later, Roba

14 came to that prison, made us all come out, and then picked out 17 of us

15 and led us to a bus, (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 At that point, when we were about to board the bus, and then Prlic

18 came out, and he was the commander. And he said that we had been

19 registered by the Red Cross. And when he said that, this one said, So

20 what? Registered? Then he turned his back. And then he said to (redacted),

21 Well, you live after all. Then swore at him and took us back to the

22 prison. And then said, All those who are registered, get inside, and

23 those who had not been registered, stand up.

24 Q. All right. Let me follow up, please, a couple of points there.

25 You said again, this person, Roba, is this the same Roba or Robo that you

Page 3203

1 have mentioned, for instance, who was on the bus on the way to Ljubuski?

2 A. Yes, up to Sovicka Vrata. Yes, Roba was there until we reached

3 Sovicka Vrata.

4 Q. You said a few days before this, the Red Cross had come to

5 register you. Would you just explain that more to the Chamber, please.

6 A. After the Red Cross registered us, we were all issued with those

7 cards, and I have enclosed it. And as of then, we were under some kind of

8 protection.

9 Q. If you can -- if you understand why, or if you have some idea and

10 can assist the Chamber in this way, can you explain to the Chamber why it

11 would have been significant to Robo, or anyone else, perhaps, in that

12 situation, whether you had already been registered or not registered.

13 What difference would that make?

14 A. I don't know. But when Prlic mentioned that we had been

15 registered, he just paused and said, Oh, they have been registered, and he

16 made us get off that bus again. And I just don't understand why he wanted

17 to say that in that way.

18 Q. You told us a moment ago that in your place, then others were

19 taken who had not been registered?

20 A. Those people who were taken away had been brought from Mostar a

21 couple of days after our registration, and then he selected 17 men from

22 that group. And I never saw them return either to Ljubuski or to

23 Heliodrom where I was.

24 Q. All right.

25 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's assistance, please, I would

Page 3204

1 like to distribute to the courtroom and to the witness Exhibits P879, 880,

2 and 881, which I will say now, I will not put on the ELMO -- ask not to be

3 put on the ELMO. They will have to be under seal because they include the

4 witness's name.

5 Q. So, Witness, I'm going to caution you. When I put to you this

6 document, don't say anything about your name, or these documents.

7 Now, Witness, I want to direct your attention, first of all, to

8 879. And again without using your name, will you just simply tell the

9 Chamber what that is? Just tell them what it is.

10 A. It's this card of the Red Cross, which registered us a week after

11 we arrived in Ljubuski.

12 Q. All right. And without saying it again, this card bears your name

13 and gives some information, for instance, about Sovici; is that correct?

14 A. This is my identity card under which I was registered, and the

15 place of my birth and the municipality in which it is.

16 Q. Can I direct your attention, please, to Exhibit 880, which should

17 be the next document. And can you please again tell us what that is, as

18 best you know?

19 A. I was given this paper after I came out of the camp. It was a

20 kind of certificate which I needed to get this last document I got from

21 the Red Cross in Zagreb.

22 Q. And when you said "this last document", is that Exhibit P881, the

23 next document?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Is it correct, sir, then, if we look at 881, would you agree with

Page 3205

1 this information - I'm not going to go through all of it in detail - but

2 this would indicate in fact you were registered sometime around the 30th

3 of April, 1993, and you were ultimately released on the 1st of March,

4 1994; is that correct?

5 A. The date is correct when I was registered, and the date when we

6 came out of the camp is also correct.

7 Q. All right. Now, just tying this back in to your testimony just

8 now a moment, when you told us a few minutes ago that you had been

9 registered by the Red Cross a few days before Robo came, your

10 registration, that is the registration that is reflected in P879; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, moving forward, were you taken to some other

14 locations, a line against the Serbs, to do labour there?

15 A. From Ljubuski, we went from Popovo Polje to the Buna. I

16 practically worked all along the front line. I don't think you can find a

17 single part of that front line where I didn't work and build

18 fortifications.

19 Q. Now, do you recall whether during that time you were abused or

20 maltreated by any HVO soldiers from Ljubuski or Grude?

21 A. It was people from Ljubuski and Grude who ill-treated us worst on

22 the front lines. As soon as we came back to the camp, that is, the

23 prison, we let Prlic know, and he immediately stopped giving them people.

24 Q. Well, how is it that Prlic had the ability or authority to stop

25 these men from taking you?

Page 3206

1 A. Every morning, Prlic went to the front line where we were to work

2 and, to each one of those who escorted us, said, "Well, if you don't

3 behave intelligently, then you will not get any one of those men. I won't

4 give you any men to work for you until you begin to behave wisely."

5 Q. Witness W, you were in a war and Prlic was your warden. But can

6 you tell the Chamber, did he treat you fairly?

7 A. As far as I know, as far as I saw him, he treated me correctly,

8 very correctly. And at times he even saved me or, rather, wouldn't let

9 some of those who would ill-treat me take me along, and I think he stopped

10 those men.

11 Q. Now, while you were staying in Ljubuski, did you have an

12 altercation with someone as you were moving around outside of the prison

13 one day?

14 A. One day, I set out to buy some cigarettes and coffee across the

15 street from the prison. I didn't look around much, I just crossed the

16 road. I went to one of the cafes. One was owned by a Muslim and one was

17 owned by a Croat. On my way back, Tuta noticed me. I was wearing a

18 camouflage uniform, and he shouted at me and told me to come to him. And

19 then at that moment, both owners of the cafes came to Tuta, and one of

20 them, who was Croat by nationality, went out and came to him and waved to

21 me to go away, and they remained with him, quarrelling. And that was the

22 first time I had seen Tuta.

23 Q. When you say that Tuta noticed you and "he shouted at me,"

24 referring to your testimony just now, do you remember anything in

25 particular that he said to you, any words that he used?

Page 3207

1 A. When he called me, "Balija, come here, fuck your mother," and he

2 says, "What are you doing here," I stood, I looked at him. And when the

3 two owners jumped towards him and came to him, one of them showed me --

4 signalled me to go away and the other two remained quarrelling. I crossed

5 the road and returned to the prison.

6 Q. Did you hear either of the two cafe owners say anything to Tuta?

7 A. One of them was saying, "What are you doing? It's not the way we

8 work here." And then I crossed the road and I was no longer in the

9 hearing distance, as it were.

10 Q. Now, this man that you saw that had this altercation that day and

11 you've just described to us, did you see this person some other time,

12 either live, or on a photograph, or TV; did you see this person again?

13 A. No, until I left the camp. Then I saw him on television.

14 Q. And do you recall the circumstances in which you saw him on

15 television, and can you tell the Chamber whether you could recognise this

16 person as the same man?

17 A. When I saw him, he was wearing a black uniform with a cap on his

18 head. And when I looked at him, I was very scared. When I saw him on

19 television, I saw him wearing civilian clothes, and he looked the same as

20 when I saw him the first time.

21 Q. Did anyone around this time identify to you -- you've so far only

22 said the word or name "Tuta." Did anyone tell you another name? And if

23 you can remember that, can you tell the Chamber, please?

24 A. Well, the next day when I went to the cafe again, someone told me

25 there -- said that this had been Mladen Naletilic, Tuta.

Page 3208

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Page 3209

1 Q. Now, is it correct, sir, that after you had been at Ljubuski for

2 about two months, you were taken to the Heliodrom?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you just describe to the Chamber, if you will briefly, how

5 you came to be transferred to the Heliodrom?

6 A. Well, the first group that went and said that they were being

7 exchanged, about five or ten days while I was still there, a bus came,

8 collected us. We didn't know where we were going. At that moment when I

9 saw -- when we came to Mostar, to the Heliodrom, I looked and I saw that

10 those that had gone previously did not go to be exchanged but were there

11 at the Heliodrom.

12 Q. Can you tell us, then, once you arrived at Heliodrom, who was the

13 person in charge, if you remember, of at least that portion or that

14 building that you were held in.

15 A. Well, in that building, the commander was Ante Smiljanic.

16 Q. Is that -- if I can assist, is that S-m-i-l-j-a-n-i-c?

17 A. Smiljanic.

18 Q. All right.

19 Now, during the time that you were held at the Heliodrom -- and

20 could I ask you, were you then held continuously at the Heliodrom until

21 you were released on about the 1st of March, 1994?

22 A. Well, from the Heliodrom, we went to different places to dig

23 trenches and so forth.

24 Q. But then at various times, after those projects, if you will, you

25 would be taken back to the Heliodrom from time to time?

Page 3210

1 A. Well, sometimes we would stay away 5, 10, 15 days. Sometimes we

2 would come back every evening.

3 Q. During the time you were there, were there particular guards --

4 excuse me -- who you remember as treating the prisoners particularly

5 poorly?

6 A. There were some who were really singled out. Miro Marjanovic and

7 Ante Buhovac.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I can assist, Marjanovic is

9 M-a-r-j-a-n-o-v-i-c. Buhovac is B-u-h-o-v-a-c.

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And were you, yourself, your brothers or those close to you

12 included among those that these two men beat?

13 A. Well, I was beaten a few times by Miro Marjanovic and Ante

14 Buhovac.

15 Q. Would you just tell the Chamber how this typically would happen,

16 if there was a pattern, or how would these beatings occur?

17 A. Well, once when I was distributing food, something was wrong as

18 far as they were concerned. And then I was slapped in the face a few

19 times and kicked in the back. This was done by Miro Marjanovic, because I

20 failed to say who was the person who was distributing the bread. And

21 Buhovac, once or twice, he came tired -- there was a person coming. He

22 was tired. He fell asleep. And actually, he would beat me because I did

23 not respond to his entrance.

24 Q. Did an HVO soldier that you knew from Sovici appear at the

25 Heliodrom for some time?

Page 3211

1 A. There was some Jozo from the police in Sovici. He spent a few

2 days there. And he beat up Ovnovic and Cilic.

3 Q. When you say "Jozo," do you remember his last name?

4 A. Pole.

5 Q. Now, you mentioned already that while you were at the Heliodrom,

6 you were taken at various times to do labour on various projects in the

7 region. Correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. All right. Now, I'm not going to take you through all of those,

10 partly because of time. But did you at some time work for a unit called

11 the Benko Penavic unit?

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Can you recall approximately how long you stayed and worked at

15 that location before returning to the Heliodrom?

16 A. Well, we spent 15 days there.

17 Q. And can you tell the Chamber in general, not just on that occasion

18 but when you were out doing forced labour, was it considered -- and you

19 can explain this in a moment -- was it considered to be, by the prisoners,

20 an advantage to be in civilian clothes or in military uniform?

21 A. Well, we were better off wearing civilian clothes because the

22 B and H army, when they saw us, they wouldn't shoot at us.

23 Q. Were you ever made to put on a uniform and go out in front of the

24 HVO lines?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 3212

1 Q. Did you know of other soldiers who were required -- prisoners who

2 were required to do that?

3 A. Yes, but I'm not quite sure. I wasn't one of them.

4 Q. All right. Now, after the time you worked at the Benko Penavic

5 unit, did you go to -- sometime shortly thereafter, to another location,

6 to another unit in Mostar?

7 A. After a few days, we went to Stela's for a day or two.

8 Q. And what did you do there?

9 A. Well, there, we worked -- we put bags on the windows at the Red

10 Cross in Mostar so as to protect the building. We collected broken glass

11 in front of the windows on the surrounding premises, and when we were --

12 because the glass would serve as some kind of clue.

13 Q. All right. Well, let me stop you on a couple of those things. In

14 your testimony just now, at least in the transcript, it came that you said

15 you put bags on the windows of the Red Cross. Were you working at a Red

16 Cross in Mostar?

17 A. The first aid -- the first aid unit of the hospital, emergency

18 unit, let's say.

19 Q. Can you say the name -- perhaps, in your own language -- can you

20 say the name of that location, what that was called, if you remember?

21 A. It was a hospital.

22 Q. Where was this hospital located approximately?

23 A. In front of the department store "Hit," in the direction of the

24 Hasana Brkica bridge.

25 Q. Do you recall any of the streets that this building was located

Page 3213

1 on?

2 A. Before the Bulevar, before you -- turning into the Bulevar, it was

3 the Lijeska Street.

4 Q. I'm going to ask the usher to show you, please, Exhibit 14.5.

5 Witness, will you look at Exhibit 14.5, please. Can you tell us,

6 by looking at that photograph, if you recognise the location where you

7 said that you went in your testimony to Stela's for a day or two?

8 A. [Indicates]

9 Q. All right. And you've indicated a building, a kind of

10 semicircular pink building on an intersection, kind of a v-shaped

11 intersection in the middle of the photograph between two streets coming

12 together at an intersection to the -- roughly to the left side. Is that

13 correct?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object to this

16 question of the Prosecution's because the Prosecutor is testifying and not

17 the witness. It is up to the witness to testify.

18 MR. SCOTT: Forgive me, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you are jumping too fast.

20 MR. SCOTT: Again, my apology. Maybe it was my mistake. If it

21 is, I do apologise. I thought I saw the witness point, make a circle

22 around those buildings.

23 JUDGE LIU: Can you ask the witness to use a pencil or something

24 to circle that place.

25 MR. SCOTT: Yes, absolutely.

Page 3214

1 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask the usher to assist you, please, if he

2 can provide you a marker. You made a circle a moment ago with the

3 pointer. Would you make the same circle, if you will, or make the

4 markings on the location you've pointed out.

5 Now, before we come back to that building, we can leave that for a

6 moment on the ELMO. But before we come back to that building, did you

7 stay overnight while you were working for Stela at this -- at that time?

8 JUDGE LIU: Just a minute.

9 Yes, Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would like to object because it is

11 suggestive in respect of the time it was to happen. Let the witness tell

12 his own story.

13 JUDGE LIU: [Previous translation continues]...

14 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the witness just testified a moment ago

15 that he stayed a day or two at Stela's. That's what he testified. The

16 next question, I'm just asking, where did you stay while working at

17 Stela's?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is not right. He said during the

19 night. The Prosecutor mentioned the night, and the witness never

20 mentioned the night.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, if the witness said he stayed a day

22 or two at Stela's, it might be that the witness stayed overnight at his

23 place.

24 Maybe the Prosecutor could clear it up.

25 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, Your Honour, if we have to do it this

Page 3215

1 way.

2 Q. Now, did you work at Stela's more than one day?

3 A. Yes, we worked there for two days --

4 Q. Stop, stop. Did you go back to the Heliodrom on the night between

5 the two days, or where did you stay on the night between the two days that

6 you worked at Stela's?

7 A. Well, we spent the night in -- at Stela's headquarters, in his

8 command in the cellar.

9 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to come back to that again in a

10 moment. Taking you back to the Health Centre, the place that you marked

11 on Exhibit 14.5, can you tell us about an occasion during those two days

12 when you saw two men beaten? Just tell us what happened.

13 A. In the morning, we came early. When we came on that morning, we

14 were brought there, we cleaned up around the buildings, we cleaned the

15 rooms, we brought the bags. And when we came -- before we left -- before

16 we started working there, two people came and brought another two persons

17 who were apparently hiding. One of them was -- I didn't know either of

18 them and I didn't see them later on. The commander, who was wearing a

19 black camouflage uniform, came to that person and asked him a few

20 questions. First he started hitting that person with his hands, and then

21 he asked for something. And then he -- when his hand started hurting him,

22 then he hit him -- the other one started hitting the one that was watching

23 us, and he said -- he threw away his rifle and he said, "You should kill

24 him and not make him suffer that much."

25 Q. All right. Well, Witness, you've told us several things there.

Page 3216

1 These two men were captured. Who was beating them, if you can describe --

2 you said someone beat them, and can you describe this person a bit more,

3 whatever information you can provide?

4 A. Well, I said that it was Stela's commander, who was wearing a

5 black camouflage uniform.

6 Q. All right. And then you said, "The one started hitting the one

7 that was watching us." And, I'm sorry, that's not very clear. Can you

8 tell us more what you mean by that? What happened?

9 A. There were two Muslims hiding around those buildings. One of them

10 was an alpinist, and the other one, I don't know what he was. He said

11 that he was the greatest alpinist. And the one who wasn't the alpinist,

12 he was also being beaten.

13 Q. I think when you're saying "alpinist," this is someone who was

14 saying he was a mountain climber; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What I'm trying to understand, sir - and my question probably

17 wasn't clear - you said somebody intervened and said something about,

18 essentially, "Just kill him." Who said that and, again, what was said?

19 A. The one that was guarding us to avoid us escaping, he made us go

20 to the ground and then he threw his rifle. "You better kill him than make

21 him suffer that much."

22 Q. Who was that person addressing, as you understood it, when he said

23 those things?

24 A. He addressed the commander wearing the black camouflage uniform.

25 Q. All right. Now, later that same day, did you see these two

Page 3217

1 prisoners again?

2 A. They were with us. They spent the night with us at the command

3 down. Then we were called again in the morning. We had to clean the

4 garbage, take it away, and this we did until the evening. In the evening,

5 we were taken to Stela's headquarters, and there we were lined up. And

6 then I saw Stela, who came very near us. There was Prlic, who used to --

7 who knew Stela, who said personally he was in prison before the war. Then

8 I heard that it was Stela. Later on, when the person in the black uniform

9 came up, he said, "We found the two of them because they were hiding."

10 And then Stela came like a boxer coming to a person. He beat him up. He

11 fell down. Then Hasim came, and then they moved away and they were

12 talking about something.

13 Q. All right. Now, I'll stop you there for a moment, please. You

14 said, "Stela came up to the person and beat him up." When you say "beat

15 him up," "him" being who?

16 A. Well, the one that was beaten up was the person that they had

17 found, not the mountain climber. The other one was being beaten up by the

18 person in the black uniform.

19 Q. And what was Stela doing during that time? I just want to be

20 clear now, because you said a couple of things.

21 A. [No translation]

22 MR. SCOTT: I didn't get any translation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat the question?

24 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, I'm not getting any translation.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Speak up.

Page 3218

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear.

2 MR. SCOTT: I couldn't hear the witness. Sorry.

3 Q. You've said a number of things. I want to make sure there isn't

4 confusion in the record. What was Stela doing at that time during what

5 you've just told us about?

6 A. When we came there, the man in black lined us up and he -- someone

7 said that, "We had found two of them." The other person that was not the

8 mountain climber was beaten by the person in the black uniform, and then

9 he was approached and was -- actually, he came to him like a boxer and hit

10 him, and he fell to the ground.

11 Q. All right. And, I'm sorry, the "he" that approached him like a

12 boxer, who was that?

13 A. It was Stela.

14 Q. Now, did you go back to the Heliodrom after that day or after this

15 event?

16 A. About half an hour later, they collected us and took us to the

17 Heliodrom.

18 Q. And these two men that you've told us about, were they taken back

19 to the Heliodrom with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SCOTT: Witness, in closing, I'm going to show you three

22 photographs. And with the usher's assistance, I would like you to be

23 shown and placed on the ELMO, please, 15.2, 15.9 and 15.37. You can first

24 put on the ELMO 15.2.

25 Q. Can you look at that, Witness, and tell us, is there anything on

Page 3219

1 that photograph you recognise?

2 A. There is, yes.

3 Q. And what do you see that you recognise?

4 A. When they brought us to a place where we were then lined up

5 against the wall.

6 Q. Can you see the wall where you were lined up at the time these two

7 men were also -- were beaten, as you told us about a moment ago? Can you

8 point that out? Perhaps again if you have the pointer, can you see the

9 wall where you were lined up, where those events happened?

10 A. Right here, where I have it now, that is where that wall was

11 against which we were lined up.

12 MR. SCOTT: And I'm going to ask the usher, please, to provide you

13 a marker.

14 Q. And if you can just mark that for the record, please.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. I'm next going to ask you to look at 15.9. Can you tell us if you

17 recognise that?

18 A. This is the cellar where we spent that one night.

19 Q. And I'm showing you 15.37. Do you recognise that?

20 A. This is the entrance into the cellar.

21 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Witness W. No further questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination. Mr. Krsnik.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I'm counsel for Mr. Mladen

25 Naletilic and will ask you some questions. Please listen carefully to

Page 3220

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Page 3221

1 what I'm asking you, and I will phrase them in a way so as to move on as

2 quickly as possible. And thank you for your understanding.

3 Let me start in this way: Will you please be so kind as to tell

4 me the name of the coffee bar in Ljubuski where you saw -- where you

5 allegedly saw Tuta?

6 A. I don't know. Both those coffee shops were across the street from

7 the prison.

8 Q. But will you please be so kind, because we do not know. Witness,

9 we do not know, and the Honourable Judges do not know where that is. So

10 could you please describe to us where was the prison, the street, and

11 where were those coffee shops?

12 A. I don't know where prison is. I never looked at the street

13 because I was only in passing there. I never looked up to see what this

14 coffee shop was called. And opposite the prison were two coffee shops.

15 There was only a street between them and the prison.

16 Q. Will you please be so kind as to describe these coffee shops? Did

17 they have terraces, what did they look like?

18 A. Both these coffee shops had terraces.

19 Q. Do you remember what kind of chairs were there, wooden, metal, or

20 what?

21 A. I don't remember.

22 Q. I'm asking you this because the Defence has to check that.

23 A. But it was eight or nine years ago after all.

24 Q. And because of these eight or nine years, do you remember how many

25 statements you gave to the SDB sector, that is the state security sector,

Page 3222

1 the secret police, its office in Konjic, and how many statements you gave

2 to the gentleman from the OTP?

3 A. Only two from the OTP.

4 Q. Ah-ha. Do you remember all your statements?

5 A. Well, it was a long time ago, but yes, more or less.

6 Q. Do you know that in the first statement about what happened

7 Ljubuski is not mentioned at all in the first statement that you gave to

8 the secret police in Konjic. In your second statement on the 30th of

9 April, '97, you describe it as follows: I could see that his hair beneath

10 the cap was grey. He wasn't particularly tall, more or less like myself,

11 174 centimetres, and he had no beard.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I get carried

13 away. I simply get carried away by my heart.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Just one thing, you're speaking so fast and in such

15 a tone that it sounds like an interrogation rather than a

16 cross-examination. So please, please try.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My sincere apology. I simply get

18 carried away. I get carried away. I'll do my best to slow down.

19 Q. Let me repeat then. In the statement you gave to the

20 investigators, you describe it as follows: An older man wearing a black

21 uniform with a number of insignia on it and a baseball cap with the

22 insignia. I could see that beneath the cap, his hair was grey. He wasn't

23 particularly tall, perhaps my height, 174 centimetres. And he did not

24 have a beard.

25 Wait, wait, wait, I haven't finished.

Page 3223

1 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting.

2 If there's going to be this extensive examination of the witness about the

3 document, it's only fair that the document be marked and put in front of

4 the witness, please.

5 JUDGE LIU: Do you have that document at your hands, Mr. Krsnik?

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, unfortunately, I only

7 have my copy. But the witness said that he remembered, and I am just

8 asking him if he remembers because this is a statement that he signed. I

9 do not see why I should show every single statement to a witness. I

10 really do not understand.

11 JUDGE LIU: The question is not that. It is that if you quote a

12 long paragraph from that statement, I think you should show the copy to

13 all the parties, as well as the interpreters.

14 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, to answer the question, it's ultimately

15 the Chamber's responsibility, of course, and I understand that. But to

16 answer Mr. Krsnik's question about if he has to show the statement to

17 every witness --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Will you slow down, Mr. Scott, please.

19 MR. SCOTT: Our position would be yes, he does. If the

20 examination is going to be conducted properly, and there's going to be

21 extensive cross-examination of a witness about a document, the proper

22 procedure is that every witness be provided the document.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will ask my

24 colleagues to give me another copy.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, can you ask the question piece by

Page 3224

1 piece rather than quoting the whole document?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is an exception

3 because in another statement, he gave another description which is

4 opposite to what he said here. That is why I am quoting it. This is an

5 exception.

6 Of course, I will do that going part by part, but already I hear

7 this objection from the Prosecution. And now I have to admit to the Court

8 that I do not have a translation of this document. I cannot give the

9 document to everybody because I do not have enough copies, and that is why

10 I opted for this form of examination, part by part. But this description

11 is very specific, because you find another description in a different

12 statement, and it is quite contrary to what we hear in this one.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Will Mr. Krsnik please slow down.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, not to delay these proceedings, because

15 we are anxious to finish the next witness today, but the Chamber at the

16 first week of trial set out very specific procedures about how documents

17 should be used with witnesses in Court. I thought the instructions were

18 rather clear. The Prosecution has taken steps to comply with the

19 Chamber's orders, and I think Mr. Krsnik can do the same.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. That's right. The Chamber has made

21 a decision on presenting of documents on these issues.

22 You could ask the question one by one rather than quoting the

23 whole document.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours. I

25 will go by this. And I would like to thank my learned friends for their

Page 3225

1 warning. I'll do my best.

2 Q. Will you please be so kind. I have just read this out to you. Do

3 you remember making that statement?

4 A. I gave a statement, but it wasn't read out to me. Perhaps they

5 did not write correctly what I had told them.

6 Q. What does this mean? You did not read it; you just signed it?

7 A. It wasn't read out to me because I was in a hurry when we were

8 giving that statement. It was very late, and that is why I had no time to

9 read it.

10 Q. Now, if I am getting your meaning correctly, are you telling us

11 that somebody brought a written statement to you, and you merely signed

12 it?

13 A. No, perhaps as I was talking, they simply noted it down in a

14 different way. It's not that somebody brought me a ready-made text and

15 that I signed it.

16 Q. I must admit that I simply am at a loss at what you are trying to

17 tell me. Will you please explain it to me. Did you say this or didn't

18 you?

19 A. I did, but how did I say that? In my last statement, I have what

20 I said in all of them, but perhaps my words were incorrectly noted down.

21 Q. But how could that happen?

22 A. Because it was already late in the afternoon. There wasn't much

23 time, and that is why we did it the way we did it.

24 Q. So -- you did it so that everything is incorrectly recorded; that

25 is, what you said is not in this transcript?

Page 3226

1 A. Well, that is the likeliest explanation.

2 Q. Then, will you tell me so that we can finish with this protocol,

3 your signature, you signed something, and you don't know what you signed?

4 A. In my first statement, yes, I did that accidentally.

5 JUDGE LIU: You have to be very careful with your question. You

6 speak really fast, and one question after another. The interpreter is

7 really behind you.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik --

9 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, will you also tell

10 the witness, who immediately answers without leaving enough time for

11 interpreters, to finish with the interpretation of the question.

12 JUDGE LIU: Witness, in front of you, there's a monitor, and every

13 word we say in this courtroom will be typed out on the screen. Would you

14 please look at this screen to see the typing is finished. Then you begin

15 to answer the question.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. President, with your permission, can I say

17 something to Mr. Krsnik. I'm taking a note and following the screen; and

18 frankly, I'm lost. The last time I'm sure that I followed the questioning

19 was when you asked the witness had he made two statements to the OTP. And

20 then you started quoting a statement and mentioning the secret police, I

21 think. And I'm lost.

22 Are you quoting, or were you quoting, from a statement that was

23 made to the offices of the OTP, or are you talking about another

24 statement? It's not clear to me what statement you're actually putting to

25 this witness, which you are, I think, going to compare with another

Page 3227

1 statement.

2 Could you go back a little bit on that, please.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you for the

4 warning. I realise now that I had done something to my detriment. I made

5 a clear distinction between the record which was done in the secret

6 police. When I read this record, I said it was dated 30th of April, '97.

7 I asked the witness if he remembered it. I opened that statement. I read

8 out to him this part of that. There was an objection. And discussion

9 started. The witness said that in this statement -- that this statement

10 did not reflect correctly his words because he had not read that statement

11 and, instead, merely signed it. They were in a hurry when he was making

12 this statement, and that it had been recorded incorrectly.

13 We heard it all in the courtroom, and I've just repeated it. This

14 is where we are now.

15 JUDGE CLARK: I think we are at cross-purposes, Mr. Krsnik.

16 Because even after your explanation, when the witness is talking about a

17 statement that was made in the afternoon and in a hurry, is he talking

18 about a statement to the secret police or to the OTP?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] To the OTP. The OTP, because I

20 warned him and I told him that we were talking about that statement. I

21 told the witness that. We are talking about that statement only. Because

22 we decided that the one which was given to the secret police, there is

23 absolutely no mention of it. He does not mention this incident at all.

24 So there is no need to discuss that statement which he gave to the secret

25 police.

Page 3228

1 JUDGE CLARK: So are we talking at this stage about a statement

2 made on the 30th of April, 1997, just so we're clear, because I thought

3 you were talking about a statement to the secret police. You're

4 abandoning that for the moment. I'm clear now. Thank you.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

6 You have helped me a great deal.

7 Q. Now, truly I'm asking you, Witness -- I will do my best to be as

8 slow as possible. You also have to wait after you hear my question, and

9 then you will slow me down, because you can see what kind of

10 misunderstandings can arise if we're too fast.

11 Witness, now let us repeat for the record: This statement that

12 you gave to the OTP that we've just been discussing, you said that things

13 had been recorded incorrectly there; is that it?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So what the statement says is not correct?

17 A. Well, most of the things said there are not correct.

18 Q. And you nevertheless, without checking it, signed it?

19 JUDGE LIU: Wait, wait. You have to wait for the witness to

20 answer the question "yes" or "no," because it's important.

21 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I am sorry, truly, but this is

22 exactly -- this illustrates the problem. Even after my previous

23 interventions, the statement is still not being put in front of this

24 witness. So now there's a -- he has no statement. There's a ten-page

25 statement. The question was -- there were comments, "So most of the

Page 3229

1 things said there are not correct." Does that mean the whole ten pages

2 are not correct? What statement is he referring to, what part of the

3 statement? The witness should have the statement in front of him, and

4 that's only fair.

5 JUDGE LIU: We also believe that's fair. You may ask other

6 questions. And during the break, could you make some copies?

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well, Witness. We shall then come back to -- go back to your

11 village of Sovici and leave aside this particular part. You were born in

12 Sovici, weren't you?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. You are familiar with the geography of your birth place and

15 surrounding mountains?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, will you please be so kind as to explain to Their Honours,

18 because they have never been there, to try to tell them where is Sovici?

19 Is it in a valley and there are around hills? Can you paint a picture of

20 Sovici, because I will have some questions, so will you please?

21 A. Sovici is 18 kilometres from Jablanica. It is surrounded by

22 hills; that is, with the exception of the direction to Jablanica, it is

23 surrounded by mountains. So there is a road to Sovicka Vrata, and Sovici

24 is in a valley, in a mountain valley.

25 Q. Yes, yes, go on.

Page 3230

1 A. It is a rather broad village. That is, one part of Sovici --

2 Sovici is quite a scattered village, a disbursed village, you know, many

3 houses and hamlets, so that at times there is a 10- or 15-minute walk

4 distance between individual houses.

5 Q. And there's only one road in Sovici, from Sovicka Vrata to

6 Jablanica; is that correct?

7 A. There are two roads.

8 Q. And which is the second one?

9 A. One is the old road through Kraji, called "Kraji," and the another

10 one was built recently. That is, another road was built through Sovici.

11 Q. And the old road, was it linked with the Road of Salvation; is

12 that what you mean?

13 A. Yes, precisely.

14 Q. Now, will you tell Their Honours, why was this road called "Road

15 of Salvation," and where is it?

16 A. The Road of Salvation was built in the very early days of the war,

17 and it was called the "Road of Salvation" because the bridge towards

18 Mostar had been blown up.

19 Q. And the refugees, as a result of the Serb aggression - and they

20 were mostly Muslim -- that is, Croat refugees - they used that road to

21 save their lives, crossing into Herzegovina and then on to Croatia; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Correct, and that road was built by the HVO.

24 Q. And that road was built by the HVO; is that correct?

25 A. It was -- well, the construction began before the HVO. The HVO

Page 3231

1 simply made it wider.

2 Q. And that road links up with that one and only road at Sovicka

3 Vrata; is that correct?

4 A. No, it is not. They link up at Obruc.

5 Q. Obruc, I see. And it is beneath Sovicka Vrata?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When somebody is in Sovici, will you explain to Their Honours,

8 where can one get out of the village?

9 A. In what direction do you mean?

10 Q. Well, you tell us. Is that correct, that there is an exit to

11 Jablanica and another one to Sovicka Vrata, and that's it by road?

12 A. Yes, you can take a road to come out to Jablanica and another one

13 to Sovicka Vrata. And during the war, there was a road going via Pomen to

14 Gracac.

15 Q. To Gracac?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could cars take that road?

18 A. Yes. That road was used through -- across Pomen to Gracac, that

19 road was used to travel from Prozor to Sovici.

20 Q. You mean the BH army?

21 A. No, the HVO.

22 Q. From Prozor?

23 A. From Prozor to Gracac.

24 Q. I see, very well. And if you place a checkpoint at the exit

25 towards Jablanica and another checkpoint at Obruc or Sovicka Vrata, then

Page 3232

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Page 3233

1 one needs to cross mountains; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And the BH army manned the checkpoint towards Jablanica; is that

4 correct?

5 A. No. It was the HVO.

6 Q. Now, tell me, on the 15th of April, why weren't the Croats allowed

7 to enter Jablanica and were stopped at that checkpoint? People -- Matan

8 Zaric was stopped there - he was the president of the HVO and then a

9 councilman in Jablanica - and a Mr. Rogic. Who intercepted them and would

10 not let them proceed to Jablanica?

11 A. I do not know who intercepted them or where. I do not know that.

12 But it is because of the checkpoint which was at Bijeli Potok. At that

13 Bijeli Potok, nobody could go through Bijeli Potok.

14 Q. Bijeli Potok, you say?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And that was manned by the BH army?

17 A. No, by the HVO.

18 Q. So where was the AbiH checkpoint?

19 A. The only checkpoint of the BH army was in Jablanica.

20 Q. You mean Jablanica itself?

21 A. At the entrance into Jablanica, right next to the entrance into

22 Jablanica.

23 Q. But Jablanica and Doljani is practically one place?

24 A. Yes, but there is 18 kilometres difference between them. No, not

25 18; 12 kilometres. There's 12 kilometres between them.

Page 3234

1 Q. Twelve kilometres. You mean from the centre of the village of

2 Doljani and the centre of Jablanica?

3 A. From the checkpoint to the former centre in Doljani.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I see it is 11.00, so

5 perhaps this would be a convenient time for a break.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, this witness is a material witness for you

7 because he testified that he personally saw your client at a certain

8 point. I hope your questions will be more direct to that particular

9 event. Thank you.

10 We'll adjourn until 11.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Please continue, Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. I simply

15 wanted to tell you that we were not able to make the necessary copies

16 during the break. There were other people making copies. We have three

17 teams in one Defence room, so I shall try to address questions to the

18 witness. We were not able to make the copies in this half hour we had.

19 Your Honours, I simply wanted to say that the counsel believes

20 that we have to deal with Sovici, because this figures in the indictment.

21 Q. Witness, let us finish with Doljani and Jablanica. If we take the

22 hamlets and the other settlements, Marica Kuce, and so forth, we can say

23 that they were sort of joint -- linked up to Doljani -- to Jablanica?

24 A. Yes, to some extent, yes.

25 Q. That is all I wanted to say, just to give the Chamber an idea.

Page 3235

1 Please tell me, when was the so-called TO set up and who did it

2 comprise in Sovici?

3 A. In Sovici, I don't know the date. It was quite a long time ago.

4 The TO was established with covering the Muslims and Croats in Sovici.

5 Q. Could you please tell me how many Croats there were and how many

6 Muslims.

7 A. I don't know the exact number. Quite truthfully, I do not know.

8 There were many of both there with the commander of the Muslims, Dzemo

9 Ovnovic. At the head of the HVO of the Croats was Stipo Kopilas.

10 Q. How many Muslims and how many Croats lived in Sovici? Since you

11 spent your whole lifetime there, I suppose you should know.

12 A. Well, the exact number, I cannot say in a few homes. Well, there

13 were about 200 houses, and there were about 50 to 70 Croats.

14 Q. You mean Croatian houses? Is it a fair statement to say that

15 there were three times more Muslim houses than Croat houses in Sovici?

16 A. Yes, there were less Croats, but if we count Doljani --

17 Q. Please, answer my questions. Now we are discussing Sovici, and

18 then we will discuss Doljani.

19 Was the same situation in the army, three times more Muslims than

20 Croats?

21 A. The Croats received fresh forces from Herzegovina who were

22 stationed at Risovac.

23 Q. You are speaking about 1992?

24 A. I'm sorry, yes.

25 Q. Why did they need stronger forces in 1992? Didn't we have the

Page 3236

1 same enemy?

2 A. I don't know. It was not clear to me then.

3 Q. How far is Risovac from Sovici, or better, Donja Makljen, which is

4 the centre of Sovici?

5 A. Doljani by road, by macadam road, about half an hour away.

6 Q. By car?

7 A. Yes, by car.

8 Q. In the village, it was the same situation, three to one in the

9 village?

10 A. Well, the forces were not the same because all those from Donja

11 Jablanica, Jablanica Slatina, they were all stationed at Sovici.

12 Q. Tell me, did you dig trenches, bunkers, in the surrounding hills,

13 the hills that surround Sovici?

14 A. Yes, we did.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 Against which enemy did you build fortifications?

17 A. When we were making fortifications, it was against the so-called

18 former Yugoslavia.

19 Q. Can you tell me how far was the nearest soldier of the former JNA,

20 how many kilometres from you?

21 A. I'm not clear --

22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, what time period are we talking about now?

23 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could clear it up, Mr. Krsnik.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, well, I said -- we were

25 talking about 1992, because we are discussing the TO.

Page 3237

1 MR. SCOTT: I wonder what the relevance of this is, Your Honour.

2 We have serious time constraints today. We are now talking about two

3 lines in 1992, which are not at issue in this witness's testimony.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, is that relevant to the issue?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is extremely

6 relevant to the issue, and I would ask my learned friend - and he knows

7 what I'm talking about - that he should not speak in the course of my

8 cross in this way, because it is relevant, and he should listen and he

9 will see. Establishing a line between -- vis-a-vis a non-existent enemy

10 was highly -- was only to be expected that they were preparing for an

11 attack.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed. But bear in mind that we have

13 very limited time, and I hope you could come to the specific instance in a

14 few minutes.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, very sincerely, I feel

16 very uncomfortable. I believe that this piece of testimony is very

17 relevant. I'm always being time-pressured. I apologise, Your Honour. I

18 know that we have a job to do. But from one witness to another, it

19 depends how fast we can proceed. It is not my fault that

20 examination-in-chief lasted two and a half hours, and now I'm required to

21 finish the cross in 15 minutes' time.

22 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no. Nobody asked you to finish your

23 cross-examination in 15 minutes. We just want you to be more concentrated

24 and to the point.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am concentrating to

Page 3238

1 the maximum. I am doing it for your benefit. You've never been to

2 Sovici, so I want to get the picture. I must ask questions which will

3 lead up to a crucial issue.

4 Q. Please tell me when the B and H army was formed.

5 A. I don't know the exact date when it was formed. But during the

6 distribution of weapons, the HVO soldiers separated, and they began to

7 build fortifications above our houses.

8 Q. When were weapons distributed to you?

9 A. I don't know the date. I don't remember.

10 Q. Was it in '92 or '93?

11 A. '92, towards the end of '92.

12 Q. And it was already then that the Croats were fortifying their

13 positions above your homes. Where was it?

14 A. It was around the Muslim homes.

15 Q. How long is the village of Sovici? What is the length of the

16 village of Sovici?

17 A. Well, Sovici is Sovici.

18 Q. What is the length?

19 A. About 15 to 20 minutes by car in one direction, so several

20 kilometres.

21 Q. And the Muslim houses are scattered around hamlets, and they

22 managed to encircle all of you in all the hamlets?

23 A. Yes, with their -- with new forces coming from other locations.

24 Q. Very well. Can you tell me where the AbiH army kept its

25 positions? Were you at Pasje Stijene?

Page 3239

1 A. Yes, I was.

2 Q. Were you in Obruc?

3 A. No, I wasn't.

4 Q. Were you -- Pasje Stijene to Mackovica was a quote of 9.2. Were

5 those your lines?

6 A. Only two ditches, two trenches.

7 Q. So you were higher above their trenches?

8 A. No. Borovnik was higher than Mackovica.

9 Q. We have to go more slowly with the names you are mentioning.

10 Mackovica and Borovnik are at an altitude higher than the village; is that

11 true?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. You said that the Croats had encircled you in the village?

14 A. The first circle was around the village, and the second circle was

15 encircling hills with new forces from Eastern Herzegovina.

16 Q. Eastern Herzegovina. Now, tell me, did you have any assistance in

17 manpower? Your army, did it have any assistance?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. So no one came from Jablanica, Prozor; people would not come to

20 join the AbiH army in Sovici?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, please tell me, when was your village attacked, as you say?

23 A. Well, our village was attacked in the morning.

24 Q. The date, please. I'm interested in the date.

25 A. I think that this was the 16th. The 15th, 16th - I don't know the

Page 3240

1 exact date - in the morning, 8.00 or 9.00, I think it was.

2 Q. In all of your three statements and today also, you said that it

3 started on the 16th in the morning, and this is what you maintain now?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, tell me, did the B and H army have any liaison facilities in

6 Sovici?

7 A. Well, we had a Motorola, which we established communication with

8 the Jablanica once a day.

9 Q. You said there were 100 or 120 armed soldiers; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And all of you were armed?

12 A. No, not all of us.

13 Q. Who wasn't -- how many of you were not armed?

14 A. Well, more than half of us had rifles.

15 Q. Did you have heavy weaponry like, for example, PAMs or mortars?

16 A. We had two mortars, and the two mortars were not used at all, and

17 one PAM.

18 Q. And one PAM. As far as heavy machine-guns?

19 A. There was one. We had one 7.9, and that is all, as far as I know.

20 Q. When the B and H army and the HVO separated, when did that happen

21 definitely?

22 A. I don't know.

23 Q. Was the commander --

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Still a private session, please, just

25 for one question or two.

Page 3241

1 JUDGE LIU: We will go into the private session.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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Page 3242

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Page 3243

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8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session.

21 MR. KRSNIK:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Do you remember your recent statement on

23 November 28th, 2000?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So wrong things went into the statement, or you did not read it

Page 3244

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Page 3245

1 and sign it?

2 A. I read it. It was translated to me, and I read it and I signed

3 it.

4 Q. There you say that 5.00, you were arrested, along with another

5 75 men, and all of those arrested were members of the TO. You said that

6 your wife was with the baby at home and not that you were with her?

7 A. On that day when I was with my wife drinking coffee in the

8 morning, that night, I spent in the school building. And next morning, I

9 went to buy something for breakfast. I returned to the school, and then

10 my wife, and mother with small baby --

11 Q. Well, I didn't ask you that. And you didn't answer my question.

12 I asked you kindly, you said that you had read your statement and signed

13 your statement. There, it is said that you were --

14 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President. If the Defence, for some

15 reason, can't seem to provide the witness with this statement, we have an

16 extra copy of the statement. We would ask that it be provided to the

17 witness, please.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, permitted.

19 MR. SCOTT: We continue to object to examination in this manner.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The number for this document is D1/18.

21 MR. KRSNIK:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, it is on the first page. Just turn the

23 page. It is the tenth paragraph. "About 5.00, I was arrested. All of

24 those who were arrested were members of the TO."

25 Have you read this? "During the attack, my wife and the

Page 3246

1 50-days-old baby stayed in the house." And so on. "My wife was later

2 taken with all the other women and children -- "

3 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, slow down, please.

4 MR. KRSNIK:

5 Q. [Interpretation] " -- with other women and children to Krcine.

6 She never told me that anything bad happened to them."

7 So the first question, were you actually in the house or on the

8 front line?

9 A. (redacted)

10 (redacted) . After the attack, when we were taken to the house where Pole

11 took the weapons away from us, the weapons we had with us. That night I

12 spent in the school.

13 Q. So you persist in saying that you were in the house.

14 A. In the course of the operations, I was in the house.

15 Q. We will not pursue the matter.

16 Tell me: All those other 75 men that you mentioned here were

17 armed, were they?

18 A. No, they were not. Because there were also old people and women

19 and those younger ones who were detained with us.

20 Q. Just a moment. I'm following up on your statement. 75 men, all

21 men who were arrested were members of the TO. I'm asking you about your

22 statement. That is what you stated. 75 men, members of the territorial

23 defence, were they all armed? I'm asking you again.

24 A. No, no, no.

25 Q. You mean they were TO members but had no weapons?

Page 3247

1 A. Well, some did have their weapons, but they handed down their

2 weapons that evening when we were made to go to Stipo Pole's house. But

3 we were not all armed. There were very few weapons there. Those who were

4 arrested later, they were the ones who had weapons on them.

5 Q. Tell me, please, perhaps you hid your weapons?

6 A. I cannot hide a weapon, because I handed it over. I was issued a

7 receipt, and I have it.

8 Q. Tell me, please, was there a trench around your house?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And your brothers, were they members of the BH army?

11 A. Yes, they were.

12 Q. Tell me, wasn't a huge amount of ammunition, automatic rifles,

13 found near your house?

14 A. No, there was never at my place.

15 Q. In your hamlet?

16 A. I wouldn't know about the hamlet. But at my place, all I can talk

17 about is my house.

18 Q. And didn't you dig a trench around your hamlet?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Very well. Did you ever cut the water supply to prevent Croats

21 from getting any water?

22 A. That is a very silly question, at least for me. I could never get

23 to that water.

24 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, please, you said in your statements that

25 they were all Tuta's men and that they introduced themselves; is that

Page 3248

1 correct?

2 A. Yes, that is correct.

3 Q. Right or right, please. And had they not introduced themselves,

4 you wouldn't know who they were?

5 A. I would, yes, we would have known, but later, because Zijo

6 Kladusak and another brother were with the HVO in an HVO unit.

7 Q. And you think if somebody is a member of the HVO, he automatically

8 knows all the units and all the battalions of the HVO?

9 A. No, not that he -- not that they knew them, but they had all this

10 information.

11 Q. And what unit did they belong to in the HVO and where?

12 A. The two of those, the two Kladusaks, were at Risovac with the HVO.

13 Q. And those who were at Risovac were Tuta's too; is that what you're

14 trying to say?

15 A. No. It was the HVO units that were up there.

16 Q. So when would you eventually find out they were Tuta's men?

17 A. We found that out that evening, when Roba introduced himself. He

18 introduced himself to us as Tuta's man.

19 Q. And do you know what Roba's name is?

20 A. All I know is -- I know him only as "Roba."

21 Q. Do you know that he is from Posusje and that half of Sovici

22 doesn't know him?

23 A. No, I don't know that.

24 Q. And you've never heard that other people from Sovici called him

25 "Robert"?

Page 3249

1 A. Whenever I saw him, I heard people calling him "Roba."

2 Q. Didn't people from Sovici, because I see that you talked about

3 everything, so didn't people from Sovici tell you that he was a member of

4 the Posusje Home Guard Battalion?

5 A. No.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session for

7 just one question, please?

8 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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23 (redacted)

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25 (redacted)

Page 3250

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Tell me, please, you said that Tuta's men could be identified

7 because they were -- they liked to beat and interrogate?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. So you mean whenever you see somebody who beats and interrogates,

10 he's Tuta's soldier?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And tell me, please, what kind of uniforms did those men have on?

13 A. Could you please repeat the question? I didn't understand.

14 Q. What kind of uniform did they have?

15 A. What does that word mean?

16 Q. Well, I mean uniforms in --

17 A. Ah, well, why don't you say so? Well, they were special

18 uniforms. Roba had green ones. And another one that I do not know who he

19 is, he had very marked pockets.

20 Q. And other soldiers?

21 A. There were very few of those soldiers except those who escorted

22 us.

23 Q. I'm asking you about the uniforms, please.

24 A. Green, and multi-coloured with big pockets.

25 Q. So all the soldiers who were in Sovici had green uniforms?

Page 3251

1 A. No, there were different uniforms. I'm telling you there were

2 different. But Roba --

3 Q. Yes, you've already told us about Roba three times. I'm asking

4 you -- we heard about Roba. I'm asking you about all soldiers. What kind

5 of uniforms did they have; the same, different? Don't you understand the

6 question? It's a very simple one.

7 A. The one that I knew who was big, he had yellowish pockets,

8 slightly darker. And those others had multi-coloured uniforms, and they

9 had all the same kind of uniform.

10 Q. So if I can conclude -- or rather will you confirm that apart from

11 Roba, everybody else wore multi-coloured uniforms?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Did they have any patches on these uniforms?

14 A. No.

15 Q. No flashes on the uniforms, nothing at all?

16 A. Only one of them, a multi-coloured uniform and with these big

17 pockets. Otherwise, no patches at all, except that Roba had this cap, I

18 mean a green beret. He had it on his head, and that's the only thing

19 which told him about --

20 Q. Right. So we've resolved all this, too.

21 Now, tell us, please, in your last statement - I have it before me

22 here - will you please turn to page 2, sixth paragraph. "When we were

23 leaving the school" - can you see the passage - "Muharem Helbet was

24 mistreated. He was stabbed with a knife in one of his butts." And now

25 you say, "I did not know the soldier who did this." Before this Court,

Page 3252

1 you said that it was Roba.

2 A. And that is what Roba did.

3 Q. So you mean this statement, this last statement you gave, is

4 incorrect, or incomplete, or what?

5 A. As far as I can remember, I always said that it was Roba.

6 Q. Witness, do you have the statement before you? You read it and

7 you signed it. It says here that you did not know him.

8 A. Where does it say?

9 Q. This is the same passage: "When we were leaving the school," and

10 you're reading it, "Muharem Helbet was mistreated. He was stabbed with a

11 knife in one of his butts."

12 A. I did not know the soldier who did this. It doesn't say so in my

13 text.

14 Q. Shall we compare the statements, then?

15 A. I suppose we should compare the two statements.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could take the statement to the

17 witness.

18 A. Yes, but this is wrong - I don't know how - because it is Roba who

19 did that. I don't understand it. I don't know who could make this

20 mistake. But Roba was who did that, and I remember that very well.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Excuse me. Does it now say so in your statement?

23 A. Yes, yes, it does. I simply didn't see that.

24 Q. But we were reading this together?

25 A. No, I was looking here, I was looking at you, and this is why I

Page 3253

1 could not find it.

2 Q. And after we read this together, you said that your text did not

3 say that?

4 A. Yes, yes, yes, it does. I simply did not see it right

5 immediately.

6 Q. Can we then say that this is a mistake, that this statement is not

7 correct, that this is not true, that it is not true that you did not know

8 the soldier?

9 A. I did know the soldier, because when he beat Muharem, when he

10 struck Muharem, they also beat Dzemo Ovnovic.

11 Q. Let's forget about Dzemo now. I'm asking you if this is your

12 statement. Can you confirm, because I don't know.

13 A. Yes, it is.

14 Q. So what is stated here is not true?

15 A. No, no, no, it is true.

16 Q. I won't bother you with this any longer, but I need it for my

17 further examination. When you said, "I didn't know this soldier," is that

18 incorrect or correct?

19 A. It is correct.

20 Q. So you didn't know him? Very well.

21 Will you please be so kind as to tell me, is it correct when it

22 says in your statement that a policeman whose name you didn't want to tell

23 us yesterday (redacted)

24 A. That does not matter. I said that I will keep that name to

25 myself.

Page 3254

1 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. But you should answer my question.

2 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think to respect the

3 witness's preference on this, at least we should go into private session,

4 if we're not already, on this matter. The witness has explained to me

5 that this was a man he thought treated him fairly. He was a Croat who

6 treated him fairly while he was in custody, and he did not want him to be

7 harmed by his name being given.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I still do not see the relevance of this

9 person to this case. Well, if it is really important for you.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Yes, very important.

11 JUDGE LIU: We could go to the private session as requested by the

12 Prosecutor.

13 Okay, we'll go to the private session.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Yes, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

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21 (redacted)

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Page 3255

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Page 3266

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15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Would you be so kind, you said that Cikota wanted to release you

19 from the prison and Rogic didn't want to let you; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Rogic is a villager from Sovici?

22 A. Yes. He was younger, but he left the village.

23 Q. Now, could you tell me which Ustasha songs you sang?

24 A. I cannot remember. We sing all sorts of songs.

25 Q. Who were the soldiers that took you over at Sovicka Vrata?

Page 3267

1 A. I don't know exactly. The answer is: No, thank you.

2 Q. So these unknown soldiers took you to Ljubuski?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Very well. Is it true that no one mistreated you in Sovici?

5 A. Me personally, no.

6 Q. Thank you. You spoke about the duties of Tuta's men, the duties

7 that they had to perform in Sovici. How do you know that?

8 A. Well, I found out on time. There is a secret there. It is not a

9 secret for me, but I don't want to go into it.

10 Q. Would you be so kind as to tell me: In 1993, how can you speak at

11 length about the duties of Tuta's men? Do you know this out of your

12 personal knowledge or did someone tell you?

13 A. Someone told me.

14 Q. You also heard that Tuta was a general?

15 A. No.

16 Q. It is something you know?

17 A. No, I did not state that. I only said that Stela was a general.

18 Q. Then I must have misunderstood you. I apologise. Could you

19 explain - and I think I will conclude with this, Your Honours - in your

20 statement of the year 2000 - you have it in front of you - page 2, it is

21 page 497 are the three last numbers on that page -- well, let me ask you a

22 question. You said that in your house -- that your house was hit with

23 incendiary bullets while your wife was there?

24 A. This was confirmed by my wife, too, who was at the house.

25 Q. Now, let us read the before-last paragraph on that page:

Page 3268

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Page 3269

1 "During the attack, my wife and my 52-day-old child remained at

2 home. Later on, my wife and child, along with other women and children,

3 were taken away."

4 A. It was during the time when the house was set on fire. This has

5 not been in this statement.

6 Q. "... taken to Krcine. She never told me that anything bad had

7 happened to them."

8 A. No, they were not mistreated. There was a mother -- the mother,

9 child and wife, they were at home. They fired at the house and it started

10 burning. They were found there and then taken to Krcine.

11 Q. Did you make this statement? Did you make that --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it correct?

14 A. Well, it turns out that it's not correct. It is stated here, so

15 during the attack my wife and my 50-day-old baby remained home and with my

16 mother at home. This is not in the statement. My wife was, later on,

17 with the other women and children, taken to Krcine, and that is true.

18 This is something that my wife told me.

19 Q. This is not recorded here.

20 A. When the house was set on fire.

21 Q. Read the last sentence, this is where we stopped.

22 A. She never told me that anything -- no one beat her. Well, that is

23 what I was referring to. She wasn't beaten, she was not mistreated, and

24 she was taken to Krcine. But this does not reflect my statement,

25 actually. The text of the statement doesn't reflect my word.

Page 3270

1 Q. You want to say that this statement is not complete?

2 A. No, it is not complete.

3 Q. Does that mean that you have not read it and signed it?

4 A. Well, later on, we were not able to add anything.

5 Q. Then you gave the statement voluntarily?

6 A. Yes. I made the statement in Mostar.

7 Q. And you told of everything you knew?

8 A. Yes. But since there was not enough room to add what I wanted to

9 say, and then we just finished with the statement then.

10 Q. If I understood you correctly, you didn't have enough --

11 A. Well, when it was written down and signed, I read it through, and

12 then we did not want to make any further changes to it.

13 Q. Who didn't want to change it, you and who else?

14 A. Me and Kaknjo.

15 Q. Did you say that it was not complete?

16 A. That it was not complete. And I was told that it was not so

17 important, that it wouldn't change things much.

18 Q. Are there other things in your statement that your words have not

19 been reflected accurately or --

20 A. No, no, no, I have not noticed anywhere else in this statement.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have just completed my

22 cross-examination. Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Krsnik.

24 We have to say we are not very satisfied with your way of using

25 the documents. We did not realise you used that statement in such an

Page 3271

1 extensive way until you almost finished your cross-examination, which cost

2 a great inconvenience for this trial and for this Chamber. The Trial

3 Chamber has made decisions concerning the presenting of documents on the

4 first day of the trial. You have to obey the order of the Chamber in the

5 future. Such conduct will never happen again. Thank you.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I will

7 not take up any more of your time. I will do my best not to have this

8 happen again in future.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Mr. Par.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we are discussing

12 the issue, may I just add something in case. When statements are being

13 proposed -- as proposals of evidence, I would suggest that we do not

14 present them as a whole, because there are certain portions that we

15 believe can be detrimental to our defence, because they were not brought

16 up in direct or subjected to cross-examination.

17 I would like to call upon the practice of the Prosecution, whom I

18 appreciate very much, when he was handing in this statement of the

19 previous witness where everything in the statement was left out that had

20 not to do with the direct. So we should bear in mind to do it in this way

21 so as not to cause detriment to this Defence.

22 JUDGE LIU: This Trial Chamber is only interested in the relevant

23 parts of the statement.

24 You may proceed.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 3272

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good day. My name is Zelimir Par, and I

3 am one of the members of the counsel for Mr. Martinovic.

4 In the course of your testimony, you recounted an event which had

5 to do with your stay in the unit near the hospital in Mostar, the

6 emergency unit. And in that connection, can you perhaps pinpoint the

7 time, not perhaps the exact day, when this happened so that we can orient

8 ourselves in time?

9 A. This was in August or September in some way.

10 Q. In 1993?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know what the name of the unit was where you were brought

13 to do -- to work?

14 A. I don't know the unit, but --

15 Q. Thank you. Just say "I know," "I don't know." You said you

16 didn't know the unit.

17 Later on, did you learn the name of that unit?

18 A. From Hasib Lulic, I learned that it was Stela's unit.

19 Q. When did you find that out from Hasib?

20 A. When we set out by car to the Heliodrom.

21 Q. Did you on the same occasion from the same person learn who the

22 commander of that unit was?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, in connection with the few days you spent there and that you

25 had spent the night in a cellar, could you describe the cellar, how big it

Page 3273

1 was, what was inside it, in brief, what it looked like?

2 A. Well, there were some pallets there where we were sleeping. It

3 was not very wide. It was narrow where we were put, and this is where we

4 spent the night.

5 Q. Was there anything else inside it?

6 A. It was dark. We couldn't see very well.

7 Q. The command -- was the command of that unit in the same building

8 as the cellar?

9 A. I don't know whether it was in the same building, but the man who

10 guarded us, he was sitting near the staircase. And he said if anyone

11 needed something, that they should address him.

12 Q. How many storeys did the building have?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. Can you tell me when you were in that building last?

15 A. I only spent that one night there.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the usher to put

17 the photograph given to us by the Prosecutor on the ELMO that represents

18 that building. I don't know the exact number. Perhaps someone from the

19 Prosecution can help me with that.

20 MR. SCOTT: 15.2.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is that the building where you spent the night?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So you claim that you were in that building in 1993. Did that

25 building look the same way?

Page 3274

1 A. There were some changes in the picture. I marked where we were

2 when they brought us there. But on the other picture, there was the

3 staircase which shows how I descended to the cellar.

4 Q. So can you tell me, the staircase that you showed us before was in

5 that building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, if I tell you that that building that you have just seen now

8 is the building of the Ministry of Defence in Mostar built in 1995, will

9 you then tell me that it is unknown to you, or whether it was the building

10 that you had stayed?

11 And can you pronounce yourself on this subject? I'm telling you

12 that it's a new building.

13 A. No, it wasn't. The building where I was, where I was taken where

14 Stela beat one of them, that was the building that I was shown.

15 Q. So you are sticking to your claims that it is the same building

16 with the same appearance, and that the staircase was the same?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, that wasn't the testimony, nor was

19 there any testimony by this witness that this is the exact same appearance

20 when this photograph was taken in 1999. And the record will be clear,

21 what this witness identified was on the side of the building, and you can

22 see that the side of the building has a different appearance than the

23 front of the building. And there has been no testimony, there's no

24 evidence in this record, about what the building looked like on the front

25 in 1993. And I think counsel should be very careful in the way he poses

Page 3275

1 these questions to this witness.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. And during the testimony of the witness, he,

3 himself, marked that place on that picture.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Par, the picture that came up on my

7 screen and the picture that was shown to this witness was the picture --

8 and I agree with Mr. Scott -- which I think he identified as being the

9 place where on the gable wall, they were lined up before they got into the

10 bus. That would be several months before, if not the best part of a year,

11 before he went to Mostar.

12 Why was he shown the wrong picture?

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If you please, I wanted to ascertain

14 with this witness the appearance of the building that he has shown us, and

15 I wanted to see whether the cellar that he described was in the same

16 building, because I understood that the witness claimed that it was the

17 same building. I wanted to clear this up.

18 And in that connection --

19 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Par, you know that we are talking about two long

20 periods of internment of this witness. One period started in Sovici, and

21 the next period was in the Heliodrom. You know that you are talking about

22 evidence that he gave which you are contesting in relation to a building

23 in Mostar.

24 Why did you show him a building that you must know was in Sovici?

25 Can you explain that, why that was put on the ELMO?

Page 3276

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Please, I believe that we did not

2 understand ourselves correctly. On the ELMO, there was the picture of a

3 building in Mostar, nothing to do with Sovici. Please put it -- let's

4 have it -- put it on the ELMO again. It is a building on Kalemova Street

5 where the headquarters of the unit was. Now it looks different because it

6 has been renovated.

7 I wanted to ask the witness whether the building looked different

8 than before. It has nothing to do with a building in Sovici, so let me

9 have confirmation of this from the Prosecution.

10 MR. SCOTT: I admit, apparently there has been some confusion

11 somewhere about this. I also note -- sorry.

12 Just a moment, Mr. President, because I want to be sure I have

13 this absolutely correct before I comment. I think it's very important

14 here, because this witness has to be treated fairly.

15 I think it's very important. What Mr. Par just said -- I'm

16 looking at the transcript -- line 71:25, it is a building on Kalemova

17 Street where the headquarters was. Now, it looks different because it has

18 been renovated.

19 Apparently it is not a dispute that this was Stela's

20 headquarters. And now they are cross-examining this witness as if he's

21 wrong. There has just been an admission that this is, in fact, Stela's

22 headquarters on Kalemova Street, and indeed it has been renovated since

23 1993.

24 In a few minutes -- and I'm very sorry to hear this -- because a

25 few minutes ago, counsel said this building didn't exist earlier, and it

Page 3277

1 was a new building since 1995. I must object in the strongest possible

2 way.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there any dispute concerning this building?

4 I mean, this building was built in 1995 or has been there long before.

5 You have to tell the truth to the witness.

6 But I think we are 5 minutes past 1.00. We have to give a break

7 to the interpreters and the typists. They have been working with

8 tremendous efforts.

9 We will resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.

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Page 3278

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that my

4 cross-examination will be very short.

5 So before I begin and since there was a certain suspicion voiced

6 that I had given the witness the wrong photograph, I'd like to sort this

7 out. If I understood it well, it was taken that I had asked the witness

8 about a building housing the command of Stela's unit and that I had shown

9 him -- but that I showed him a different photograph and from another

10 locality. I wish to inform Your Honours that that is not so, and I'm

11 reacting in this way because Judge Clark asked me about it. So I showed

12 the witness the same photograph that was shown him by the Prosecutor when

13 he asked him about an incident which happened before the -- in front of

14 the command of Vinko Martinovic's unit during that examination, and the

15 witness confirmed that he was by that building and indicated -- and

16 pointed at the wall in front of which they were lined up. And I beg my

17 learned friend to correct me if I'm wrong.

18 The photograph that was this photograph is in Binder Number 1,

19 Exhibit Number 15.2, and it says that it is the front side -- the facade

20 of the building of the command of ATG Vinko Skrobo. We were given several

21 photographs of the same facility, and it says clearly "Command ATG Vinko

22 Skrobo." As during the direct examination, the witness identified the

23 building as the place where he was, I told the witness that in 1993 there

24 was a family house in that same place and it looked completely different,

25 because the exterior of that building on the photograph was changed in

Page 3279

1 1995, when the former house was demolished and a new one built there. So

2 the witness cannot claim that this is the building that he was in.

3 So the idea behind my cross-examination was very simple. I'm

4 trying to establish whether the witness has ever been at that place, and I

5 tried to find that out by asking him questions about the appearance of the

6 building, because if the witness tells me that in 1993 he was in a

7 building shown in this photograph, then I think that he's simply not

8 telling the truth. In other words, Your Honours, I do not think that I

9 tried to give the witness a false photograph.

10 The Prosecutor showed the witness a newly-built building and asked

11 him to confirm that it housed the command of Stela's unit. And if anyone

12 showed this witness the wrong photograph, then it definitely was not the

13 Defence, in my view.

14 If this clarification was not sufficient to explain the position

15 of the Defence, then I trust that Your Honours will ask me for any

16 additional explanation that I may give them.

17 JUDGE CLARK: I accept what you said.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Judge Clark.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] May I proceed.

20 Q. Now, Witness, let us go back to the time that you spent in this

21 unit. You tell us that it was the unit commanded by Vinko Martinovic,

22 Stela. At that time, did you know his full name or did you know only his

23 nickname, "Stela"?

24 A. I didn't know his full name. It was through Hasib Lulic that I

25 learned that his -- that it was Stela.

Page 3280

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Page 3281

1 Q. Tell me, were you personally ill-treated in that unit?

2 A. I myself was not ill-treated.

3 Q. You said that two men were ill-treated by a commander in a black

4 uniform. Do you perhaps know his name?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. Do you know which unit he belonged to?

7 A. It was Stela's unit.

8 Q. Did he have any patch on his uniform?

9 A. He didn't, no.

10 Q. But otherwise did members of Stela's unit wear black uniforms?

11 A. Only that one; none of the others.

12 Q. Did you personally, with your own ears, hear anyone tell Stela how

13 that man had beaten those two prisoners?

14 A. No, I never said that I did.

15 Q. No, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm asking you if you ever

16 heard it with your own ears, yes or no.

17 You didn't. Very well.

18 Tell me, do you know when those men were found, where had they

19 been hiding?

20 A. When they brought them, they said they had been somewhere in the

21 attic.

22 Q. Was it in the immediate vicinity of the defence line manned by

23 that unit?

24 A. It was on that street, on the street with the hospital.

25 Q. In other words, very near the front line manned by that unit?

Page 3282

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. And did you hear that soldier who beat them or somebody else

3 accusing them of being there in order to spy on the positions to find out

4 to reconnoitre the area, or perhaps that they were snipers or something

5 like that?

6 A. No, only when they were caught and brought, the question was,

7 "Where have you been?" And they said, "We were hiding because we could

8 not cross to the other side."

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Could we go to the private session for a

10 moment, because I wanted to mention a name.

11 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3283

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. SCOTT: Are we in open session?

8 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

10 Q. Witness W, I wanted to direct you back to some testimony about the

11 identification of the units that attacked Sovici as being Tuta's units, or

12 at least including Tuta's units. You mentioned some people named

13 Kladusak, and I'm not sure that the record -- your testimony was entirely

14 clear on that.

15 Who were these people Kladusak, and how was it that they -- strike

16 that -- how is it that they told you that this was Tuta's unit?

17 A. Those two Kladusaks in that unit, they were guarding the machines

18 of those men and were on the roster of that HVO unit.

19 Q. Have these two brothers, the Kladusaks, been members of the HVO

20 until just very, very shortly before the attack on Sovici?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And do you recall, in fact, when they had left -- when did they

23 actually leave the HVO, if you know?

24 A. A day or two before the attack on Sovici.

25 Q. So these men who had just recently been members of the HVO, they

Page 3284

1 were the ones who identified these units to you. Is that what you're

2 telling the Chamber?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I want to next direct your attention, please -- I don't know if

5 you still have or if you ever had - it has been a bit confusing - the

6 statement that you made to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities

7 in front of you. If you don't, I'm going to hand it to you now, if I can

8 have the usher's assistance. I think there are five copies there. I'm

9 sure counsel have copies. I don't know what the Chamber's preference

10 might be otherwise.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there has been some statement of

12 concern by counsel about the Chamber being provided full statements of

13 these things because of other matters in the statements, and so at this

14 point, I'm not sure how to proceed. Just in order to move forward at this

15 time, I think I can simply take the witness to the most pertinent

16 statements. But I'm in your hands, Mr. President, however you want to

17 proceed.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

19 MR. SCOTT:

20 Q. If you have --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be put on the ELMO, please, because the

22 interpreters do not have copies of it.

23 MR. SCOTT: My apology, too, because I've just handed the usher by

24 mistake --

25 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think it could be put on the ELMO.

Page 3285

1 MR. SCOTT: No, it can't, because of the name. It will not be

2 lengthy. I can tell the Translation Services that it will not be a

3 lengthy reference, and we'll try to be careful.

4 It was my mistake for not tendering to the witness, of course, the

5 B/C/S version. I apologise. I just picked up -- the first thing I picked

6 up was the English version. Could you put that in front of the witness,

7 please.

8 Counsel, I'm referring to the statement made to the security

9 sector on the 1st of -- excuse me, the 3rd of January, 1996. In the B/C/S

10 version, I believe it is roughly -- somewhat difficult, admittedly -- but

11 I believe it's the paragraph under the title "Statement."

12 Q. And, Witness W, I'm also going to ask you to direct your attention

13 to that. If you can find the paragraph, about the second paragraph under

14 the title "Statement." If you can find the words in your language which

15 say: "After two days spent in the school." Do you see that? Do you see

16 that?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. We need an oral response, Witness, please. "Yes" or "no"?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. You were cross-examined about your memory and the accuracy of your

21 testimony about the fact that this Helbet was stabbed in the leg by Robo

22 with a knife. Did you state on the 3rd of January, 1996, in that

23 paragraph:

24 "As we entered the bus, members of Tuta's unit hit and maltreated

25 us. Especially brutal was a soldier nicknamed 'Roba,' who struck Dzemo

Page 3286

1 Ovnovic, our village battalion commander, the most while he stabbed" --

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. I see you are standing.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you may have

4 noticed, I did not make a single objection today during the direct

5 examination. But now we object, because there was too much leading and

6 too much suggestions during the direct examination. Now it looks as if my

7 learned friend is cross-examining the witness rather than re-examining the

8 witness. I should like to ask Your Honours -- and I did not object so

9 far. I would like to ask Your Honours to warn my learned friend that he

10 is still examining directly. Thank you.

11 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think the direction we received from

12 the Chamber the other day in this situation, we take the witness directly

13 to the relevant statement; that he's been challenged on exactly this

14 point, and I'm simply, frankly, partly for the ease of the courtroom,

15 reading it myself in English rather than having the witness read it. If

16 I'm reading it wrongly, I'm sure I'll be corrected, but the -- and then

17 ask the witness is that his statement.

18 JUDGE CLARK: You're doing it absolutely correctly.

19 MR. SCOTT: Judge Clark, thank you.

20 Q. Witness, I'm sorry, I don't know where -- I'm just going to start

21 with this part of the sentence --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Please go slowly, because we do not have the

23 text.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is

25 absolutely clear that it was not this statement which is -- I did not

Page 3287

1 quote from the statement that is now being used by my learned friend, and

2 that I used the statement of the 28th of November, 2000. Now my learned

3 friend is showing the witness the first statement of the witness given to

4 the security bodies in '96, so let us at least sort this out.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, let's deal with this problem first. Is this the

6 same statement?

7 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. The relevance is this, and in fact

8 Mr. Krsnik made part of my point for me. He impeached this witness,

9 suggesting that this had not been his prior testimony before he came into

10 the courtroom and made these statements.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, Defence counsel attempted to impeach

13 this witness by suggesting that until he came in the courtroom, he had not

14 previously given information about this Robo stabbing the man Helbet in

15 the leg or the buttocks at the time they were being loaded on the bus in

16 Sovici. Now, if what counsel just said is true, he didn't go -- take him

17 to that statement. Then I object to that, because it's unfair to suggest

18 that this witness had never said that before when, in fact, he said it in

19 1996. So frankly Mr. Krsnik's conduct in this regard is doubly wrong,

20 because he knew that there was a prior consistent statement at the time he

21 asked the question.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you lay out the foundation for your question,

23 I think there will be no misunderstandings.

24 MR. SCOTT:

25 Q. Did you make this statement in 1996, sir:

Page 3288

1 "Especially brutal was a soldier named 'Roba,' who struck Dzemo

2 Ovnovic, our village battalion commander, the most while he stabbed

3 Muharem Helbet with a knife in the leg. There were four members of Tuta's

4 unit on the bus with us prisoners"?

5 Sir, is that the statement you made? You have it in front of you

6 in your language. Is that the statement you made in January 1996?

7 A. Are you asking me?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. Now, in a similar fashion - Your Honour, I

11 have very limited re-direct, about two or three more questions - I'm going

12 to ask the witness be shown -- Mr. Usher, can you please provide this to

13 the witness? I'm providing -- for the record, the Chamber and Defence

14 counsel, I'm tendering to the witness at this time a B/C/S version of his

15 statement dated the 28th of November, 2000, which was extensively

16 cross-examined on by counsel during cross-examination, most of the time

17 without the witness having the statement in front of him.

18 Q. Witness W, if I can ask you to please again -- I'll try to assist

19 you as much as possible, because of course I'm working in the English

20 version and you have the B/C/S version. But on the first page of the

21 actual statement itself, the actual text of the statement, if I can direct

22 your attention to about the sixth paragraph of your statement, if you can

23 find the words in your language saying: "During the attack, my wife ..."

24 And you may remember that, you may have seen that previously, because

25 counsel asked you about that previously. Do you see that?

Page 3289

1 A. [No audible response]

2 Q. Now, did you say on the 28th of November, 2000:

3 "During the attack, my wife and the 50 days old baby stayed in

4 the house. My wife was later taken with all the other women and children

5 to Krcine. She never told me anything bad happened to them"?

6 Now, you've been questioned extensively about that statement. Is

7 that statement true and accurate, as you've explained it to the Chamber?

8 A. My wife was with her mother in the house which was set on fire.

9 On that day when the house was set on fire, she was taken away from the

10 burning house. She was taken out of the burning house and taken to Krcine

11 with her mother and the little baby.

12 Q. And as you explained to Defence counsel, you indicated that in

13 fact she was not personally mistreated, in the sense that she had not been

14 beaten or otherwise abused, and is that an accurate statement in

15 connection with what you've said here?

16 A. Yes, it is.

17 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to -- I'm just going to stop

18 there. We could go on with these statements, because frankly the

19 Prosecution submits that they were -- great liberties were taken with

20 these statements. But I think I'm just going to stop with those two

21 instances.

22 I would like to tender at this time Exhibits 56 and Exhibit P879,

23 P880 and P881, which were the Red Cross exhibits, so to speak. And those

24 should be, of course, under seal. I will simply note for the record that

25 with this witness, we also used -- the Prosecution also used

Page 3290

1 Exhibits 15.2, 15.9 and 15.37. Now, those have already been admitted as

2 part of Exhibits 1 to 53. But just so the record is clear, they were also

3 put to this witness.

4 JUDGE LIU: Any objections from the Defence counsel?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no objection.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objections either.

8 JUDGE LIU: So those documents are admitted into the evidence.

9 Madam Registrar will give them proper names.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, my co-counsel reminds me that the

11 witness also marked a couple of photographs, which of course should be

12 treated in the usual manner, and marked as "new documents as marked," and

13 I'm sure the registrar will handle that.

14 JUDGE LIU: Sure, that's Document 15.2.

15 MR. SCOTT: Yes. And I believe also -- 15.2, and also the

16 photograph of the Health Centre --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Mr. Scott.

18 MR. SCOTT: -- also 14.5 of the Health Centre, he also made a

19 marking on.

20 JUDGE LIU: Sure.

21 MR. SCOTT: Finally, Your Honour, if you'll just allow me, I have

22 no further questions for the witness. But I would refer to the Chamber to

23 Prosecution Exhibit Number P2, which is one of the maps we provided at the

24 beginning.

25 I submit to you that much of the cross-examination might have been

Page 3291

1 both shorter and clearer if the map had been tendered. When the Court has

2 a chance to look at that, I think you can decide for yourself whether

3 Doljani and Jablanica are essentially the same place. You will see that

4 they are considerable distance apart on the map.

5 Thank you, Mr. President.

6 JUDGE LIU: Okay. I saw Mr. Krsnik standing.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. As far as

8 Exhibit 56 is concerned, I have already objected. I saw it in the

9 transcript, and I continue to uphold that objection with my depositions a

10 few days ago, and I am still objecting to Exhibit 56.

11 As regards the last one, I think the witness and I have cleared up

12 the situation about Doljani and Jablanica before the Chamber. The map is

13 quite a different matter. And I believe that we should all go to the spot

14 and see it on the spot.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Krsnik. This Trial Chamber has noted

16 your objection to Document 56.

17 Maybe Madam Registrar will give the proper number for those

18 documents.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The documents will now be PP879, which is under

20 seal; PP880, which is also under seal; PP881, which is under seal;

21 PP14.5/5; PP15.2/1.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 Judge Clark has a question to ask the witness.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE CLARK: Witness W, you explained to us how your village of

Page 3292

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Page 3293

1 Sovici is quite spread out, and that there are many hamlets which are

2 quite a distance from each other.

3 A. [Previous translation continues]... I was addressed a short

4 question about it. In one direction, 15 to 20 minutes, one house was, in

5 fact, at a distance from the other. Hamlets, there were several. I can,

6 perhaps, quote them, their names to you.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I don't need you to do that. One thing I wanted to

8 understand is that the village of Sovici is a fairly large area which

9 includes, I take it, a small town, and then little satellite hamlets?

10 A. Yes, that is right.

11 JUDGE CLARK: I'm asking you these questions in relation to the

12 attack that morning on the 16th or 17th - I think it was the 17th - of

13 April. If one came into the village, would one see a section that was a

14 Croat section and a section that was occupied by Muslim inhabitants, or

15 were you totally integrated?

16 A. No, the Muslims and the Croats were separated in the upper part of

17 Sovici. There were only two or three houses which belonged to the

18 Muslims.

19 JUDGE CLARK: I see. So would it be that the Muslim population

20 lived near the mosque, and the Catholic population lived near a church?

21 A. No, there was no church in Sovici. There was a church in Doljani,

22 and the mosque was in the upper part of Sovici. The Muslims did not only

23 live in the upper part of Sovici, but from the very beginning of Sovici to

24 Vrsovci, and they were scattered in that area.

25 JUDGE CLARK: The reason I ask all these questions is I really

Page 3294

1 wanted to know when the attack started, was it directed towards a

2 particular area or to the village generally?

3 A. It was directed at a certain part of the village, Kula, and the

4 upper of Sovici where the majority of the population were Muslims and

5 where there were no Croat houses.

6 JUDGE CLARK: I see.

7 Now, that clarifies that for me. Now, the next question I would

8 like you to answer is that you told us that somebody else told you that

9 four men had been killed in front of the school, and you gave the Court

10 the names of those men.

11 Did you, in fact, see this event? Had it happened by the time you

12 all were put into the bus?

13 A. No, it wasn't on that day that it happened, but after we were

14 driven off to Ljubuski.

15 JUDGE CLARK: And have you had any opportunity to verify whether

16 those names were, in fact, accurate, and that those people are no longer

17 available in the village, if I put it neutrally?

18 A. Well, when we left the camp later on after some time, their body

19 remains were handed over to their family.

20 JUDGE CLARK: So it has been confirmed that those four people did,

21 indeed, die?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Now, the next question I wanted to ask you is

24 something that you told us about. You worked for a considerable period on

25 building the front line, and I think that you said that there was hardly a

Page 3295

1 part of the front line that you hadn't had a part in building.

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE CLARK: When you were building the front line, were you

4 under attack in any way?

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE CLARK: Was there anybody protecting you while you were

7 building, to safeguard you?

8 A. No.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Can I take it that you, in common with other

10 detainees or prisoners, were doing the same work? You weren't the only

11 one.

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Were you paid in any way for this work? Did you get

14 extra cigarettes or spending money or rewards in any way?

15 A. The only thing that we had in Citlucani there, there was enough to

16 eat and to get cigarettes. Elsewhere, no.

17 JUDGE CLARK: And then finally, when you described the beating

18 that the two men who were brought into the cellar received, I think you

19 said that they were Muslims who were hiding in an attic, and one was

20 described as a very expert alpinist.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE CLARK: You described beatings that they had from one of the

23 soldiers, and you described that one of the soldiers appeared to be more

24 compassionate.

25 A. Well, the soldier that guarded us, he was more compassionate than

Page 3296

1 the commander of the group.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know what happened to those soldiers? Did

3 they become internees in the camp with the rest of the people that you

4 were with?

5 Sorry, they weren't soldiers. The people who were found in the

6 attic, the people who were beaten up.

7 A. The two people were taken to the Heliodrom.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And did they join your group, then?

9 A. No, not my group. But they were taken to another part, and I had

10 no access to that point.

11 JUDGE CLARK: So you didn't see them again?

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much for assisting me.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving

15 evidence.

16 Mr. Par, you have a question to ask?

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] One question, if you allow me.

18 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Par:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, when you were returning after the two

20 had been beaten up, did they return with you in the same bus to the

21 Heliodrom?

22 A. Yes, I told that to the Judge already.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise. Two very short

25 questions, which result from Judge Clark's questions.

Page 3297

1 Re-cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Was there a mosque or a gasulhana in Sovici?

3 A. A mosque.

4 Q. Do you know the difference between the mosque and the gasulhana?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. A foreigner who does not live in Sovici, would he know that it is

7 a mosque?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On 15th or 16th, you said the attack took place. Was the mosque

10 in one piece?

11 A. Yes, it was.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, Witness, for giving the

13 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, you may leave.

14 THE WITNESS: I take off my earphones?

15 [Witness withdraws]

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

17 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

18 Your Honour, in consultation with the Court staff, and among

19 ourselves, we will not call the next witness, which we are extremely

20 disappointed about. And I cannot, as I stand here now, even assure the

21 Chamber that this witness will return.

22 I ask the Chamber to please understand that many of these

23 witnesses come here very reluctantly. And while there is subpoena power,

24 in a sense, the realities of the situation are that if the witnesses do

25 not come voluntarily, they mostly don't come at all. We will do

Page 3298

1 everything possible to persuade this person to come back and give her very

2 important testimony to the Chamber, but we have to say that it's extremely

3 unfortunate. And I must -- well, I'll come back to that in a moment. We

4 think it's a very unhappy situation.

5 Before I come back to that, I do want to say a couple of things,

6 and then there are a couple of procedural matters that I would like to

7 address, since we probably do have a few minutes at least. Mr. President,

8 before the last break, some strong statements were made in connection with

9 particularly with Mr. Par. I just want to be very clear about this, that

10 whatever was done, as far as I'm concerned, it was a matter of confusion

11 or misunderstanding. And I am not for a moment suggesting that whatever

12 Mr. Par did was intentional. It may have been a translation problem; it

13 could have been confusion with the witness. And my comments are

14 specifically addressed to Mr. Par. But I'm not accusing him at all of any

15 bad faith, and I want that to be clear.

16 JUDGE CLARK: I think I probably owe Mr. Par an apology. I

17 thought that the photograph that we were looking at, because of the notes

18 I had and everything, was the photograph of a particular event. In fact,

19 it was the event, and I had misplaced the event. I had thought the event

20 happened when they were getting into the bus at Sovici. But looking back

21 over my notes, I realise that it was when they were -- this witness says

22 they were lined up against the side of the wall in Mostar.

23 And I was incorrect, and I owe you apology. And I do apologise.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Of course, all this was the

25 result of confusion. Perhaps I was not well-intentioned enough. Perhaps

Page 3299

1 that I also contributed to all this having happened. So as far as I'm

2 concerned, everything is all right.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, not having clarified that - and I did

4 want to be very clear that that was said before my next comments were

5 made - going back to the witness schedule situation, the Prosecution

6 respectfully submits that had the cross-examination of this last witness

7 by counsel for Mr. Naletilic been done in, I think, a concise and

8 efficient way, we could have gotten to this witness. And I'm not asking

9 the Chamber to make a statement, to agree or disagree with me. I'm just

10 making an observation. We have a very unfortunate situation where a

11 witness is being sent back to Bosnia, may or may not come back. And we

12 submit if the cross-examination had been done properly, there is every

13 reason to think we could have completed that witness by 5.30 today.

14 Now, having said that -- well, I see Mr. Krsnik is on his feet. I

15 do have a couple of other matters to address the Chamber on, but I'll let

16 Mr. Krsnik address the Chamber, if he wishes.

17 JUDGE LIU: Do you want to respond to this point? Yes.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, not wishing to quarrel

19 with the Prosecution, we have prepared very well for this witness and

20 cross-examination would have lasted ten minutes. We have another two

21 hours to go before the end of this session, because the witness that we

22 have just had was far more important to me because I had to deal with him

23 on account of the indictment. But for the next witness, I can guarantee

24 that I can complete my cross-examination in ten minutes, and my other

25 colleagues don't have any questions at all.

Page 3300

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I would also like to add that we have

2 no questions in the cross for the next witness, and it would be a pity for

3 the witness not to be heard. We will even allow the Prosecution to have

4 leading questions so as to go through her statement as quickly as

5 possible. We're trying to be as cooperative as possible, and we hope that

6 we will be able to have this witness and not to have her sent back.

7 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we're in the Chamber's hands. The

9 witness is available.

10 JUDGE LIU: Do we finish with her today?

11 MR. SCOTT: Well, let me ask -- Mr. Bos will be handling the --

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, Mr. Bos tells me that he expects that we

14 would have a chance of finishing direct in approximately an hour and a

15 half.

16 JUDGE LIU: Okay. You may call your next witness.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: And the Trial Chamber noticed that you filed a motion

19 for protective measures concerned with the next witness.

20 MR. SCOTT: That's right, Your Honour. I'll let Mr. Bos respond

21 to that.

22 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. This --

23 JUDGE LIU: If you need to go into private session, just inform

24 us.

25 MR. BOS: Yes, I would like to go into private session if I need

Page 3301

1 to explain the --

2 JUDGE LIU: Okay, we'll go to the private session.

3 [Private session]

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Page 3348

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

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9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

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15 [Open session]

16 MR. SCOTT: If you have that, Your Honour, it just seemed to us

17 that it may be worthwhile to note for the Chamber that while we've been

18 taking testimony these past three weeks now, there is a number of

19 other -- there have been a number of other witnesses essentially in this

20 case. As you will know, Mr. President, approximately 16 witnesses

21 testified in depositions in July and early August, so we have not been

22 writing on a completely clean slate, if you will. You will see on this

23 table, for instance, there were five witnesses who testified on the

24 Sovici/Doljani matters, which are listed here. Turning to page 4, there

25 have been three witnesses who had already testified about the attack, the

Page 3349

1 day 9th attack on Mostar, the Vranica building. There have been two

2 witnesses concerning detention centres in general and the Heliodrom, as

3 indicated on page 5. And as indicated on page 6, there have been three

4 prior witnesses concerning the Mostar confrontation line or what might be

5 called such issues as "human shields." On page 8, there were two

6 deposition witnesses on Rastani. And finally, on page 9, there was a

7 deposition witness concerning Harmandzic.

8 We also have included here, lest they perhaps fall between the

9 cracks at this point of the case, the transcript witnesses from other

10 cases by prior order of the Chamber when - forgive me - when the Chamber

11 was previously constituted - I apologise, Your Honour. My cold has caught

12 up with me, I'm afraid, this afternoon - the transcript witnesses from

13 other cases which have been admitted. And given the hour, I'm not going

14 to belabour these things, but the Chamber will have these and have the

15 summaries of what -- the issues that they have already touched on.

16 Finally, starting on page 13, we would also mention and remind the

17 Chamber that we also have a pending motion date, dated the 16th of August,

18 in which we tendered the transcripts of three additional witnesses, none

19 of which are protected or sensitive in any particular way - Paddy

20 Ashdown, Robert Donia, and Pero Ribic - and we just thought that might

21 be helpful for the Court to have as you hear this evidence, which touches,

22 of course, on many of the same issues.

23 The final matter, Your Honour, is we know that the Defence have a

24 motion for changes in the Court schedule, about perhaps not having Court

25 on Wednesday afternoons. We have not, up to this point in time, prepared

Page 3350

1 a written response to that. I don't know if the Chamber has any views on

2 that. I mean, I think it's fair to say we would oppose it. We do oppose

3 it. The Chamber -- does the Chamber wish to receive a written response on

4 that matter?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are expecting your written response on this

6 matter.

7 MR. SCOTT: Very well. Then we'll file it next week.

8 Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Is there anything from the Defence side? Yes.

11 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Let me just confirm, Your Honours, and

12 for the record, that Mr. Vinko Martinovic's Defence has no objections to

13 the amended indictment. After all, it is in our favour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 This Trial Chamber would like to thank both parties for your

16 cooperation to these proceedings. We also would like to thank all the

17 interpreters and the typists for today's work.

18 As you all know, we will have our next session on the 8th of

19 October, in Courtroom III, at 9.30 in the morning, so we'll have a break.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.38 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 8th day of October,

22 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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