Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4462

1 Thursday, 25 October 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Before we have the next witness, I would like to

9 remind both parties that we will start this afternoon at 2.00, until 3.30,

10 because at 4.00, there will be an initial appearance using this

11 courtroom.

12 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Are you ready for your next witness?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I am ready.

14 The next witness requested the following protective measures: Facial

15 distortion and pseudonym. The motivation is that he, himself, and most of

16 his next of kin are living in Mostar.

17 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

18 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And Your Honour, I must advise you that my

22 questions, and I suggest that my witness's responses, will be relevant to

23 Background, paragraph 7 to 10; Superior Authority, paragraph 14; General

24 Allegations, paragraphs from 18 to 21; count 1, paragraphs 26, 27, 31,

25 34(a), (b); counts 2, 5, paragraph 34; counts from 9 to 12, paragraph 45.

Page 4463

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would the usher bring in the witness,

2 please.

3 While we are waiting for the witness, Mr. Prosecutor, would you

4 please sent us that piece of paper so that we know who the witness is.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The registrar has it already.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 WITNESS: Witness DD

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Would you please make the

11 solemn declaration.

12 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

13 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

15 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

16 Q. Witness, good morning. Your request for protective measures has

17 been granted, and now you testify here protected by facial distortion and

18 pseudonym. Your pseudonym will be Witness DD. Now you will be given a

19 sheet of paper. You should read it, but not aloud, just to yourself, and

20 if your name, date of birth are correct, you may say yes, and we'll

21 proceed.

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. So Witness DD, I will direct you to the events that happened in

24 Mostar on the 9th of May, 1993, in the premises called Vranica building

25 and in the surrounding area. What happened on the 9th of May in Mostar

Page 4464

1 and what did you observe and get to know?

2 A. On the 9th of May, I was in my apartment in the building called

3 Vranica. Around 5.00 in the morning, I was awakened by strong shooting

4 and explosions. I thought it was an attack by Serbian forces which were

5 located on the eastern side of the town, that is on the surrounding hills,

6 but when I got up, I realised the attack was coming from the western

7 side. The civilians inside the building were panic-stricken. General

8 commotion and chaos ensued. We didn't know what was going on. We headed

9 for the basement. Certain parts of the building were hit.

10 Q. Were there many people in the basement by the moment you arrived

11 there?

12 A. Yes, there were. People were gathering, afraid for their safety,

13 because the upper parts of the building were under attack with infantry

14 weapons and mines. So we sought shelter in the basement.

15 Q. Who were the people who gathered in the basement? Were there any

16 military people among them?

17 A. There were civilians of all ethnic groups; Muslims, men, women and

18 children. In the basement were the quarters of the command of the BH

19 army, as they called themselves. At the time, I didn't know how many

20 soldiers there were because I had no access to those premises.

21 Q. Were they firing back?

22 A. Later on, when the attack was well underway, they did fire, but

23 with what, I don't know. That is, I saw them around the building. Those

24 were soldiers armed with light infantry weapons.

25 Q. You just told that you saw them. As far as I understand, you saw

Page 4465

1 the soldiers of the enemy formation. Am I correct?

2 A. Could you define that?

3 Q. Yes. I would like to understand your response: "That is, I saw

4 them around the building. There were soldiers armed with light infantry

5 weapons." Do you mean ABiH soldiers or some other soldiers?

6 A. I meant inside the building, in entrances to the building. Those

7 were not HVO soldiers. I couldn't really see. I didn't dare come to the

8 window because there was shooting.

9 Q. Witness DD, some minutes ago, you explained to the Trial Chamber

10 that your first impression was that the building had been attacked by the

11 Serbs. When did you come to know that it was a different military force

12 that attacked the building, and how did you learn it?

13 A. Well, that was obvious. Stories circulated immediately, because

14 it was obvious the attack was coming from the western side. There were

15 tensions in the town even before, and there were smaller skirmishes.

16 During that day, one could hear demands made through a megaphone for

17 soldiers to come out and surrender.

18 Q. Did the people who were speaking through the megaphone identify

19 themselves as belonging to some military unit?

20 A. Yes, they did. They said that the attack was being carried out by

21 the Croatian Defence Council and they were demanding that the army

22 surrender, that civilians come out. However, we, the civilians, didn't

23 want to come out. Shooting hadn't stopped yet and we didn't know what was

24 going to happen to us. We heard that certain civilians had already been

25 taken to Heliodrom, to the stadium.

Page 4466

1 Q. How long did you stay within the basement?

2 A. We stayed there until the 10th of May, until about noon, when the

3 basement was attacked. Soldiers of the Croatian Defence Council advanced,

4 started shooting, and they were already under our windows. They were

5 shooting inside the basement, and a child was wounded. Water supply pipes

6 had cracked and water was already flowing towards us. So we fled to the

7 third, fourth floor, and we were waiting to see what would happen to us

8 next.

9 Q. And why did you leave the building in the long run?

10 A. We left the building -- the soldiers were shooting, throwing down

11 their weapons. One of the civilians, one of the Croatian civilians inside

12 the building had communication with the Croatian Defence Councils. And he

13 made a sort of agreement and found out the details, so we came out,

14 outside the school building, which was near the western wing of that

15 building.

16 Q. What about the ABiH soldiers that were inside the basement? Did

17 they also surrender?

18 A. Yes, one group did. I personally saw a group of soldiers who

19 didn't want to surrender who remained behind after we left. One group of

20 the soldiers was searching flats for civilian clothes, and they changed

21 and followed us. They lined up in the courtyard of the School of

22 Economics.

23 Q. Were there any people who were familiar to you among those ABiH

24 soldiers?

25 A. You mean among the soldiers?

Page 4467

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No, I didn't know anyone from before. I wasn't in the army. I

3 hadn't been in the army and I hadn't seen any of them.

4 Q. All right. And what did you observe outside of the building?

5 A. Outside the building, we were met by the soldiers of the Croatian

6 Defence Council. Jusuf, Juka Prazina, introduced himself. He said that

7 we were prisoners now. And he also said that he wanted to lead the army.

8 Why, I don't know, but he was then leading the Croatian Defence Council

9 instead. On the spot, Juka Prazina separated Croatian civilians and told

10 them they could -- they were free to go. As for Bosnian civilians, women,

11 and children, they were separated into another group. And Muslim

12 able-bodied men were put into another group yet and kept. In a file, two

13 by two, he led us to the building across the old Velez stadium. I don't

14 know what the name of the building is.

15 Q. How did Juka's soldiers treat you, from the moment of your arrest

16 until the moment, then, when you were taken to some building?

17 A. As soon as we came out, mistreatment started. Juka Prazina

18 himself was hitting one of the young men among us. He was pretending that

19 he was not a member of the BH army. However, in his opinion, we were all

20 being mistreated. There were many soldiers. Everyone was hitting people

21 as they pleased.

22 Q. Were Juka Prazina's soldiers the only ones you saw in the area?

23 A. I don't know whether it was only his unit. There were many, many

24 soldiers all around the building. I saw them. I saw them holding

25 positions in various sheltered spots. To what units they belonged, I

Page 4468

1 don't know.

2 Q. Did you see any commanders apart from Juka Prazina in the area?

3 A. Outside the School of Economics, I didn't. At least, nobody said

4 they were a commander. And I don't know -- wouldn't know to recognise

5 ranks. It was just that Juka Prazina said that we were prisoners now.

6 Q. I mean not only in the place in the area of Vranica building. I

7 mean the whole day of the 9th or the 10th of May, while you were in

8 Mostar.

9 A. Yes. Juka Prazina took us to the courtyard of that building whose

10 name I don't know. There we were met by a larger group of soldiers, and

11 among them was Tuta. There was also Misic. There were many commanders,

12 many soldiers. Juka brought us there, and he reported to Tuta, and he

13 said, "General, here they are. I've brought them," something like that.

14 Q. Did you hear this name "Tuta" before?

15 A. I did hear that name personally, but I didn't know who or what he

16 was, but I had Croatian friends who said things. I personally had not

17 seen him before.

18 Q. So what happened after Juka Prazina reported to a person called

19 Tuta that the prisoners had been brought there?

20 A. Lots of things happened there in a very short interval. There

21 were many soldiers, and mistreatment started. Juka - or, rather, excuse

22 me, it's not Juka, it's Tuta. He was standing in front of us and saying

23 that we would be executed right there on the spot. However, one of the

24 soldiers intervened. I don't know whether he held a rank or not. He

25 said, literally, that it was not the proper place to kill us. There was

Page 4469

1 then an argument between them and some other soldiers got involved in it.

2 Then Tuta said we would go to Siroki Brijeg and that we would all be

3 executed, that we would all hang. He told the soldiers to drive us away.

4 Q. Witness DD, were there any concrete -- sorry, prisoners selected

5 for being executed?

6 A. We were counted. We were counted and ten of us were designated to

7 be executed.

8 Q. Who was counting you?

9 A. We were counted personally by Tuta.

10 Q. Could you describe the man that at least was introduced to you as

11 Tuta?

12 A. Yes, I can. He was an older man, thin, long-haired, greying hair,

13 wearing spectacles, in a uniform.

14 Q. All right. Go on with the description of events that happened, as

15 you just told us, in a short period of time while you were at that

16 building.

17 A. There I saw that Tuta recognised a person who was in that line,

18 and I saw him hitting him with a Motorola, and the Motorola cracked, and

19 then Juka stepped forward and said, "General, this is my soldier." I

20 don't know what later happened to that man. We boarded a bus which was

21 waiting for us at the building. We were being hit as we went through the

22 gauntlet of soldiers. They kept hitting us until we boarded the bus.

23 From there, we were taken to Siroki Brijeg, escorted by soldiers.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you. Your Honour, I would like just to go

25 into private session for some minutes, because we need some names here.

Page 4470












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Page 4471

1 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

2 [Private session]

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Page 4472

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7 [Open session]


9 Q. Witness DD, you just told the Chamber that on the way that you

10 were taken from the building to the bus, you were beaten by soldiers.

11 Whose soldiers were beating you?

12 A. These were the soldiers of the Croatian Defence Council, but I

13 wouldn't be able to tell you to which units they belonged.

14 Q. Were you beaten personally?

15 A. I received a few blows.

16 Q. Who were the soldiers that were escorting you to Siroki Brijeg?

17 A. These were the soldiers who had been in front of the building,

18 that is, the Vranica building. I think that they were members of Juka's

19 unit.

20 Q. Were they mistreating you on your way to Siroki Brijeg? I mean --

21 A. Not physically. However, they did threaten us. So

22 psychologically, we were mistreated.

23 Q. Had you ever been in Siroki Brijeg before you were taken there on

24 the 10th of May?

25 A. No, I had never been there before, in Siroki Brijeg, that is.

Page 4473

1 Q. What was your impression of the first minutes there, of your

2 arrival there?

3 A. I did not understand the question.

4 Q. How were you received, to make it more complete?

5 A. We were brought in front of the civilian police building, and we

6 were lined up there. We each had to identify ourselves, and the commander

7 of that station also identified himself to us. Now I cannot recall his

8 name. Our personal belongings were taken away from us there. We were

9 taken to the basement. There were two cells there, measuring 3 by perhaps

10 1.5 metres, without windows. There was a kind of a block that was used as

11 a window. In these first several days that we were there, soldiers would

12 come in during daytime and nighttime, they mistreated us, they beat us.

13 Q. Sorry, sorry. Do you remember any particular soldiers that were

14 beating and mistreating you?

15 A. I personally had known one of those soldiers from before. That

16 was Romeo Blazevic. When he entered, he also recognised me. And he

17 immediately started beating me right away. He had some kind of a stick

18 with a -- coated with leather. It looked like a whip of some kind. I was

19 sitting, crouching. And so he beat me. He beat my brother, and then he

20 cursed us. And the other soldiers, I did not know. I saw them there for

21 the first time.

22 Q. But were those other soldiers who were along with Blazevic also

23 beating other prisoners?

24 A. The soldiers who were coming would come either alone or in

25 groups. Blazevic on that occasion had come alone. Later on, a man named

Page 4474

1 Ivan and nicknamed Cikota, he beat prisoners, and it's terrible.

2 Q. What conditions of detention were there in the MUP station?

3 A. The conditions? The cell itself where we spent three days was

4 small and 20 men were put in there. There was no air. It was very

5 difficult. We were let out to go to the toilet in the morning and in the

6 evening, and we received food also twice.

7 Q. Do you know who was in charge of the MUP station? Who was

8 commander of the MUP station? Who were the persons who were guarding

9 you?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

11 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, Mr. President, I object to that question

12 and the form of the question. It's a compound question. Thank you.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay. I will split this question into two

14 questions.

15 Q. Please answer my first question. Who was in charge?

16 A. At the MUP, I think that his nickname was Cane. I don't know his

17 full name. I'm not sure. I think it was Cane. He did identify himself

18 to us, but I did not remember the name.

19 Q. Do you know who was his commander?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And who were the persons who were guarding you?

22 A. Those were members of the civilian police.

23 Q. Did they take prisoners outside of the cells for some purposes?

24 A. Yes. We went to work. We also swept the hallways of the police

25 station building. And then, after we had been there for two days, 20 of

Page 4475

1 us were taken to perform labour.

2 Q. What kind of labour and where?

3 A. There was a swimming pool in the centre of Siroki Brijeg, and it

4 had been -- it had fallen into disuse, and we were cleaning it out to make

5 it operable again.

6 Q. How many days did you work on the swimming pool?

7 A. We worked perhaps two, three days, two days. Then we were moved

8 to the prison at Ljubuski.

9 Q. How long did you stay in Ljubuski?

10 A. About three days. That was a military prison, and we were guarded

11 by the military police. We were about 40, and we were all placed in a

12 single cell and kept under lock. We stayed there for three days. On the

13 third day, a soldier came and asked that the men who had worked at the

14 swimming pool go back there, to Siroki Brijeg.

15 Q. Do you know that person who took "us" from Ljubuski back to Siroki

16 Brijeg?

17 A. No. I cannot recall who that was.

18 Q. Where did you -- sorry, where were you kept in Siroki Brijeg after

19 Ljubuski?

20 A. We were again taken back to the police station, and we stayed

21 there for another ten days. We went on with work. And then we were

22 transferred to the Tobacco Institute, that was part of the military

23 barracks, and we were put up there. The headquarters of the Convicts

24 Battalion was there, and there were some other units.

25 Q. And who was in command of the Convicts Battalion, do you know?

Page 4476

1 A. According to the stories, it was Tuta. He was the commander of

2 this unit or brigade or whatever it was.

3 Q. Did you ever see Tuta in Siroki Brijeg?

4 A. Yes. I saw him. He once came to the swimming pool where we

5 worked. I also saw him later on.

6 Q. Where?

7 A. Several times.

8 Q. Do you remember the situation -- situations in which you saw a

9 person called Tuta?

10 A. Well, I saw him once at that Tobacco Institute. He came there.

11 And once I saw him when we were taken to work, to dig a canal. He talked

12 to the guards who were guarding us.

13 Q. And how did they treat you in the Tobacco Institute?

14 A. At the Tobacco Institute, the conditions were better than at the

15 station. We were not physically mistreated. Psychologically, we were.

16 Soldiers would say all kinds of things in passing to us. On one occasion,

17 soldiers came and took out three from among us. They were mistreated.

18 They were beaten and questioned. Then this man, Ivan Cikota, came. He

19 also mistreated the prisoners who had arrived there after us. They were

20 brought from the Heliodrom, 10 to 15 men who had been brought there to

21 help us with our job, which was digging.

22 Q. Just let's return a little bit. You were talking about three

23 prisoners who were mistreated on some occasion.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: If we go now into private session, Your Honour,

25 could I ask the witness to give the names of those people, if he

Page 4477

1 remembers.

2 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.


23 Q. You just informed the Trial Chamber that you were performing some

24 digging jobs and some Heliodrom workers were taken to the tobacco station

25 just to render you some assistance. What kind of digging works were you

Page 4478

1 performing?

2 A. This canal extended the length of a hill. In other words, we

3 started at the top, and we were supposed to dig all the way down to the

4 foot. It was an arduous job because it was very hot. We worked from

5 morning until dusk. We only dug manually, of course. At first, we were

6 assisted by civilian prisoners who were held at the Dobrkovici school.

7 Q. Do you know where that canal was located in Siroki Brijeg?

8 A. We went by bus there. We passed through the Dobrkovici village.

9 And from there, we went on foot, and that's where Tuta's house was. I saw

10 him there on one occasion.

11 Q. How do you know that that house belonged to Tuta?

12 A. Guards always said so. That house, the house was fenced off. We

13 did not have access to it. We could only see the top part of it, the

14 roof. And none of us ever approached that house.

15 Q. And which was the occasion when you saw Tuta there?

16 A. Once when we were coming back from work, Tuta was probably

17 waiting, and he was talking to the guards. This was -- this may have been

18 August or July. I'm not sure.

19 Q. When was the canal digging finished?

20 A. We worked on the canal for two to three months, and then the work

21 stopped and we were reassigned to other jobs. Occasionally, we would come

22 back and dig some portions of it.

23 Q. What other jobs did you perform?

24 A. We did various jobs; cleaning, sweeping around town. In the

25 barracks, we did repairs. We did repairs in one house. We cleaned the

Page 4479












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Page 4480

1 drill grounds. We did loading and unloading in various storage houses.

2 Q. Did you ever work for some certain persons?

3 A. Yes. We also worked in private houses, private homes such as Ivan

4 Cikota's, for instance. We dug some sort of well. I also cleaned a

5 stable of his. We dug some other wells, although I don't remember for

6 whom. I only know that soldiers came to take us there.

7 Q. Do you know if other prisoners were involved in some jobs for --

8 in private estates?

9 A. Yes. Individual groups of about three to five men were taken away

10 to perform various jobs. I know of a group which also worked on Zeljko's

11 house.

12 Q. And what do you know about Cikota's family and Cikota, Cikota

13 family?

14 A. About his family, I know that one of their sons was killed. We

15 arrived a little while after his death. He lived with his father and

16 mother, with his entire family.

17 Q. Witness DD, did they ever pay you for the job on the swimming

18 pool, on the canal, and for your job in private estates?

19 A. No, never.

20 Q. And what was your last place of detention?

21 A. My last place of detention was Heliodrom. We were transferred

22 there in December, and we were told then that we were being taken to be

23 exchanged. We remained at Heliodrom until we were exchanged in March

24 1994.

25 Q. And my next question: You spent some time in different detention

Page 4481

1 facilities; did you ever see the representatives of the Red Cross there?

2 A. We saw them only at Heliodrom in December when we were

3 registered. We didn't see them before.

4 Q. Were you ever registered before as a prisoner?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. I mean by some humanitarian organisation, Red Cross or some

7 other.

8 A. No, no, I wasn't.

9 Q. Did you see ever military units deployed in Heliodrom?

10 A. I did. I saw those Tigers. In addition to the local battalions,

11 or what shall I call them, there were the Tigers, then the Gromovi,

12 meaning Thunders. All of them were members of the HV, the Croatian army.

13 Q. Did they have different uniform from HVO soldiers?

14 A. Basically, those were not different uniforms, but they had

15 distinct arm patches depicting tigers as a sign of their brigade. Then

16 also in passing, I saw certain soldiers carrying weapons. They had their

17 airplanes in which they were sitting.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness DD.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I have completed my

20 examination-in-chief in my allotted time.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Meek.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It may be trucks, not

23 airplanes.

24 MR. MEEK: I'm sorry, Your Honours, I did not have my headphone

25 on. Did the witness mean trucks instead of airplanes? Did I catch that?

Page 4482

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. That's a correction from the interpreters.

2 But you could clear it up if you still have doubts on this point.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

4 MR. MEEK: Could I ask the assistance of the usher, please. For

5 the record, I am handing the usher what has previously been marked and

6 admitted as P11.18. It's a map of Mostar. Please hand it to the

7 witness.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, you said it is previously marked,

9 which might give some hint to this witness.

10 MR. MEEK: Yes, I will, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: I mean, this map.

12 MR. MEEK: Yes, the map is a map of --

13 JUDGE LIU: Have you got a clean map?

14 MR. MEEK: This is a clean map, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 MR. MEEK: Could you show the witness the map, please, on the

17 ELMO. Yes.

18 Q. Witness DD, good morning.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. My name is Mr. Christopher Meek, and I am one of the attorneys for

21 Mr. Mladen Naletilic, and I would like to ask you a few questions. Do you

22 understand?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. If you do not understand one of my questions, will you please tell

25 me so that I can rephrase the question.

Page 4483

1 A. All right.

2 Q. Witness DD, is it true that you grew up in Mostar your entire

3 life?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in front of you on the screen is a map of Mostar. Do you

6 recognise that?

7 A. The image is too dark, but I can see that it's Mostar.

8 Q. If it would help you, Witness DD, you can take the map in front of

9 you for the moment and take a look at it.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you take a pencil, please, or a pen, and please mark where

12 the building is located where you were living on the 9th of May, 1993,

13 please.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, you understand that this witness is under

15 protective measures.

16 MR. MEEK: May we go into closed session. I apologise, Your

17 Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the closed session.

19 [Private session]

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit is D1/29.

18 JUDGE LIU: It should be under seal.

19 MR. MEEK:

20 Q. Witness DD, after you arrived at the location of the house across

21 from the Velez stadium, you've indicated that you saw Juka along with an

22 individual by the name of Tuta; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. MEEK: May the ELMO be lowered, please.

25 Q. Before that day, you had never seen this individual, correct?

Page 4486

1 A. I never saw him before, no.

2 Q. And you have, since your release from the Heliodrom in 1994, given

3 two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal; am I

4 correct?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Witness DD, the first statement you gave was approximately the

7 28th of April, 1997. Do you recall that?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. And Witness DD, would you agree with me that, back in April of

10 1997, the events which had occurred during the war were fresher on your

11 memory then than they were three years later, in the year 2000?

12 A. I wouldn't quite agree.

13 Q. When you arrived at the location by the house at Velez stadium,

14 you indicated that Juka -- excuse me, that the individual who you say is

15 Tuta had taken a Motorola and struck one of the other prisoners; is that

16 correct?

17 A. Correct.

18 Q. And did you -- how far away was this other prisoner when that

19 occurred?

20 A. A couple metres to my right side.

21 Q. Did you tell in your statement that the Motorola broke or

22 shattered?

23 A. It fell out of his hand, and whether it cracked from the blow or

24 from hitting the ground, I wouldn't know.

25 Q. Thank you. But in any event, the Motorola actually fell to the

Page 4487

1 ground and, in the process, it broke at some point, correct?

2 I think, for the record, the witness answered, "Yes," but it's not

3 on the screen. Did you answer, "Yes"?

4 A. I said I don't know whether it cracked from the blow or from

5 hitting the ground.

6 Q. Was it at this point or immediately thereafter that Juka

7 approached this individual Tuta and talked with him?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And in your first statement that you gave to the Office of the

10 Prosecutor, you indicated that Juka approached this man and called him

11 Tuta, correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 A. Well, he said --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The name is protected. It should be redacted.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we should have this name redacted.

19 MR. MEEK: Okay, I'm sorry. I apologise. I didn't realise that

20 individual.

21 Q. After that, Juka told Tuta to stop the beating. Is this correct?

22 A. In my second statement, I said that the gentleman, Mr. Naletilic,

23 said -- that is, Juka told Tuta, General Tuta, he said it was his

24 soldier. What arrangements they had between the two of them, Juka and

25 Tuta, I don't know. I don't know why all this.

Page 4488












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Page 4489

1 Q. Thank you. And you just now mentioned that in your first

2 statement, Juka addressed this gentleman as "Tuta"; but in your second

3 statement, three years later, Juka addressed this gentleman as "General

4 Tuta." Can you please explain what the difference -- why the difference

5 from your first statement to your second statement, if you can.

6 A. Well, look. At the time when I was giving my first statement, I

7 was trying hard to forget certain things. I don't know if you can

8 understand this. But the more you delve into this, the more the memories

9 come back.

10 I apologise.

11 Q. That's fine. That's fine, Witness DD.

12 Would it also be true that in that period of time between 1997 and

13 2000, that you spoke with other people from Mostar or the area of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina about the events which occurred in '93 and early '94?

15 A. It could have happened, but I did not talk.

16 Q. However, it would be a fair statement, would it not, Witness DD,

17 that in that period of time after the war, you saw TV clippings about this

18 gentleman, Mr. Naletilic, and you also read newspaper articles and saw his

19 picture in the newspaper? Is that true?

20 A. Excuse me, could you repeat that. I didn't hear very well.

21 Q. I'm sorry. During the time after you were released from the

22 Heliodrom, you saw Mr. Naletilic in the newspaper, and also on TV.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And that is also one of the ways that you discovered what his real

25 name was, besides the guards telling you. Correct?

Page 4490

1 A. Well, not quite correct. Once you got to know him makes no

2 difference whether you see pictures or not. As I said, I saw the

3 gentleman a couple of times during the period of my detention.

4 Q. I'd like to talk to you a moment about that. Didn't you only see

5 him three times total?

6 A. A couple of times, I said.

7 Q. To make sure I'm not confused, the first time you saw him was on

8 May the 10th. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Then can you tell me when the second time that you saw him? When

11 was that?

12 A. That was at the swimming pool. Also in May. Which date it could

13 have been, I can't recall. While I was working at the pool, he visited

14 once to inspect how the work's coming along.

15 Q. Was he in civilian clothes at the swimming pool that day in May,

16 Witness DD?

17 A. No, he was wearing a military uniform.

18 Q. Then the last time that you saw Mr. Naletilic would have been the

19 day that you were coming back from digging a canal; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And on that day, you were in the bus with the other prisoners;

22 correct?

23 A. We hadn't boarded the bus just yet. We were lined up.

24 Q. On that occasion, I believe in your statement you indicated that

25 this gentleman had on casual, civilian clothes, correct?

Page 4491

1 A. Yes. I remember that. I remember saying that. But I remembered

2 later that he wasn't wearing civilian clothes, if that is so important to

3 you. He could have just as well worn civilian clothes, but when I came

4 here, I gave a solemn oath to tell the truth, and I think that a statement

5 may be changed.

6 Q. Witness DD, both the statements you gave to the Office of the

7 Prosecutor, you read and signed those statements, did you not?

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, if you are going to use this statement

9 so extensively, why not furnish this statement to the witness? You have

10 to be fair to this witness.

11 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, I will always be fair to the witness. The

12 witness understands exactly -- I don't need to show the witness the

13 statement to refresh his recollection at this moment. He remembers the

14 statement, and so therefore I do not believe I need to show it to him.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, the question is not whether you believe it or

16 not. The question is that this Chamber has made a ruling on this point,

17 that if you want to use the previous statement, you have to show it to the

18 witness.

19 MR. MEEK: Okay, Your Honour. I see it's the 11.00 break. Would

20 this be the appropriate time to take the 11.00 break?

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will resume at 11.30.

22 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

Page 4492

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 Q. Witness DD, I'd like to take you back a moment and ask you to

3 describe, please, the house that you mentioned earlier that was the old

4 house across from the Velez stadium where you were taken.

5 A. Well, this was a house with a big yard, with hedges around, and I

6 think that all the paths were covered with pebble. I do know they were

7 gravelled and -- I cannot recall the house very much because I did not

8 take a good look at it, but I remember the hedges, and the -- they were

9 lining up the paths.

10 Q. And Witness DD, can you tell me, to the best of your recollection

11 today, how many minutes it took you to walk from the building to this

12 location?

13 A. I believe about ten minutes; perhaps a bit more, a bit less.

14 Q. Thank you. Another quick question is once you arrived at that

15 yard that you've described, how much time elapsed between your arriving

16 and the incident where you say Mr. Naletilic hit [redacted]-- or hit another

17 person with the Motorola?

18 A. Can you perhaps clarify this for me? What do you mean "how much

19 time"?

20 Q. Once you arrived at the location of the house, then how much time

21 went by before you observed the incident with the Motorola?

22 A. Not much, but time was the least consideration at that time. I

23 did not follow the time, but it wasn't -- it wasn't very much time. It

24 happened really quick.

25 Q. Thank you. Real quickly too: You mentioned that you were in the

Page 4493

1 building and you heard a voice on a megaphone asking you to come out; is

2 this correct?

3 A. Now, what building are you referring to?

4 Q. The building that you were located in on the 9th of May and the

5 10th of May.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you recognise the voice through that -- that was speaking

8 through that megaphone that day?

9 A. No, I did not.

10 MR. MEEK: I would ask the usher to hand the witness what has been

11 previously marked as Exhibit D1/22. Thank you. First I would just ask

12 the witness to look at the document.

13 Q. Witness, have you looked at that photograph?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recognise that? Do you recognise that location?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is it?

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm sorry, but it seems to be a very private

19 conversation between the counsel and the witness. We don't see the

20 document.

21 MR. MEEK: Please put it on the ELMO. I apologise.

22 JUDGE LIU: The first thing is that you have to inform us what is

23 this document about. The second thing, I don't know yet, but I suspect

24 that it will identify the witness.

25 MR. MEEK: No, it will not. No.

Page 4494


2 MR. MEEK: It will not, Your Honour.

3 Q. On the ELMO, for the record, is a photograph which has been

4 previously marked as D1/22. And I would ask the witness, do you recognise

5 that photograph?

6 A. No. To me, this building has no significance whatsoever.

7 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I want to ask the question about

8 that exhibit. Thank you.

9 MR. MEEK: Could you lower the ELMO, please. Somebody please

10 lower the ELMO.

11 Q. Witness DD, you have already testified about the incident with

12 Juka Prazina stopping the beating of one of the prisoners. You remember

13 that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After that, you testified that Mr. Naletilic had picked out ten

16 people, and you were one of those ten. Correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then there was an intervention by another HVO officer who was

19 present, was there not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was this HVO person, he was an officer, correct?

22 A. In my opinion, yes, I believe that he was an officer.

23 Q. And part of your opinion, is it correct, is based on the fact that

24 this man had bodyguards with him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4495

1 Q. And after Mr. Naletilic had picked the ten people, you being one

2 of those ten, this officer also intervened, did he not?

3 A. Yes, he did.

4 Q. And this officer not only intervened, but actually shoved Tuta.

5 There was some shoving and quarrelling. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, they developed a quarrel, and then other soldiers stepped

7 in. I believe that they were bodyguards. I think that they were the

8 bodyguards of both men, and they kind of lowered the tensions. I could

9 not see it very clearly because we had to keep our heads down, lowered.

10 Q. Thank you. So besides these two different people who intervened

11 to help stop the beating and save your lives, did anybody else intervene

12 in that moment?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Witness DD, you have described a person by the name of Romeo in

15 Siroki Brijeg. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you describe this person for the Trial Chamber, please,

18 physically his description.

19 A. The main feature, to my mind, was his shaven head. He was about

20 my height, perhaps a little bit shorter. 35 to 40 years of age.

21 Q. Thank you. Did you know this individual before you arrived at

22 Siroki Brijeg?

23 A. Yes. Yes, I did know him. He was the owner of a coffee bar which

24 I patronised. He also knew me.

25 Q. About how long had you known this individual, Romeo?

Page 4496

1 A. A fairly long time. We used to live on the same street. That was

2 a long time ago. So we were neighbours.

3 Q. And you described the incident where Mr. Romeo, this individual

4 Romeo, would come to the cell, is that correct, and take people away?

5 A. No, no, no. He was not taking people away. I don't believe that

6 I said that Romeo was taking people away.

7 Q. I stand corrected. You described an incident where this Romeo

8 came into the cell; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And how was he dressed?

11 A. He was in a military uniform, camouflage.

12 Q. Do you know which unit he was from or with?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did he come alone that night?

15 A. He entered our cell by himself.

16 Q. And Witness DD, what time was that, approximately, if you can

17 remember?

18 A. I believe it was night-time. I did not have a watch, and the

19 concept of time is vague at that time, at least, to me it was. But it was

20 during the evening hours, but perhaps night-time.

21 Q. Thank you. And were the civilian guards that you've talked about,

22 were they present then?

23 A. Not in the cell.

24 Q. And was this Romeo -- was he drunk that night?

25 A. I had no way of telling. I don't know whether he was drunk or on

Page 4497












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4498

1 drugs. I wouldn't be able to say.

2 Q. Did he appear to be out of control, to you, that night?

3 A. He was angry. He was enraged.

4 Q. Was he looking for any specific person, to your knowledge?

5 A. He entered through the door, and he first turned to me, because he

6 knew me, and he started hitting me with this leather whip. We were

7 sitting down, and he was standing, and that's how he hit me with this rod

8 or --

9 Q. And the leather whip, about how long was this leather whip, the

10 length?

11 A. Not very long, 30 to 40 centimetres, perhaps. It was like weaved

12 leather, and I think that it had some kind of a metal ball at the top.

13 Q. Do you know where this individual by the name of Cikota was when

14 this occurred?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Did Romeo ever say that somebody had sent him to do this, that he

17 had been ordered to do this by anybody?

18 A. He made no confessions to me.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you make a complaint to the civilian police that

20 were guarding you about this incident?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know if anybody in your group did?

23 A. I don't believe so.

24 Q. Now, you've testified, Witness DD, about your digging of a canal.

25 Do you recall that testimony?

Page 4499

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you describe the guards who took you in the mornings and

3 stayed with you while this canal was being dug.

4 A. I wouldn't be able to describe it because the people who were

5 guarding us changed during that labour, because we went on working there

6 for a long time, several months. These were soldiers in uniform, armed

7 with automatic rifles, and that's it.

8 Q. Okay. Maybe I'll be a little more specific. Were they older,

9 older soldiers, or were they younger soldiers?

10 A. Well, there were some older soldiers, and then there were some who

11 were younger, in their 30s. Those who were guarding us at the swimming

12 pool were all older ones. They called themselves home guards. They were

13 kind of a reserve.

14 Q. And did sometimes the home guards go with you to the work on this

15 digging of the canal? Or did they just stay at the swimming pool area?

16 A. These were two separate jobs. In other words, we were not in a

17 position to do both jobs at once. We first finished the swimming pool.

18 Then we went on -- proceeded with the digging of canals.

19 Q. Yes, sir. I understand. But when you went to the digging of the

20 canals at a later time, did some of the older home guard go with you from

21 time to time?

22 A. Yes, there were.

23 Q. Were you able to gain knowledge of any of the names of these home

24 guards?

25 A. Perhaps some did introduce themselves to us, and we could overhear

Page 4500

1 what they called each other. But I did not remember any of that. It

2 didn't seem important to me.

3 Q. And at the swimming pool, when the home guards were guarding you,

4 were they armed?

5 A. Yes, they were, with automatic rifles.

6 Q. Now, you've indicated that during your entire stay at the various

7 facilities, you were first in Siroki Brijeg. Correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You went to Ljubuski for several days?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Then you returned to Siroki Brijeg to the MUP station again?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Just for several days.

14 A. About ten days.

15 Q. And then you went to the Tobacco Institute in Siroki Brijeg?

16 A. Yes, we were transferred to the Tobacco Institute.

17 Q. And finally, you were transferred to the Heliodrom.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You've indicated, I believe, both in your statements and in your

20 testimony, that you were not physically mistreated, only psychologically

21 mistreated. Is that a fair statement? Is that correct?

22 A. In the beginning, there was some physical mistreatment. But later

23 on, it stopped.

24 Q. Just several more questions, and I'll be finished, Witness DD. I

25 appreciate your testifying today. I want to go back to the incident with

Page 4501

1 the individual that got hit with the Motorola. Do you recall that?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Right before that happened, didn't you observe this individual

4 step towards Mr. Naletilic?

5 A. Mr. Naletilic called him -- he probably had known him from

6 before. I overheard a part of the conversation that took place between

7 them.

8 Q. And the part of the conversation which you heard led you to

9 believe that they knew each other from the past. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But you don't know in what relationship they may have had in the

12 past. Is this correct?

13 A. No, I don't know that.

14 Q. I'm almost finished, Witness DD. Since you said you heard some

15 conversation between Mr. Naletilic and this individual, can you tell us,

16 to the best of your recollection today, what was said?

17 A. I remember that Tuta said, "Where have you been, blood brother?"

18 That I remember quite well.

19 Q. And that's the extent of what you remember of the conversation

20 between this man and Mr. Naletilic?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. MEEK: I don't think I have any further questions, Your

23 Honours.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And I guess there's no cross-examination

25 from Mr. Par.

Page 4502

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Defence of

2 Mr. Martinovic has no questions of this witness.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 Any re-examination?

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, only one question.

6 Re-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

7 Q. Witness DD, in your testimony today - this is page 14, line 9 -

8 you stated that on one occasion, you saw Tuta in tobacco station. Is it

9 correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. Just I wanted to clarify

12 the transcript.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Judge Diarra has two questions.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

16 Mr. President.

17 Witness DD, before you arrived at the tobacco station, whilst you

18 were at the police station, you said that Tuta himself picked out ten

19 people and threatened to execute them. Was this threat carried out, if

20 only on a few of these people, or was it just a mere threat that was not

21 carried out?

22 A. As I said during my evidence, they were not executed. What

23 happened was a quarrel ensued between Tuta and another, I believe he was

24 an officer, and he pointed out that this was not a place where we should

25 be executed. So I don't know whether Tuta would have gone on.

Page 4503

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] All right. Now, about Tuta's

2 house, you said that you never actually entered the house, that you only

3 saw it from afar, from a certain distance. Looking from that distance,

4 were you able to see prisoners working inside the house from where you

5 were standing?

6 A. No. We were not able to see that. This was a hilly area, and the

7 house was surrounded by a fence. We had no access there. We had no idea

8 what was going on inside the house.

9 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. These were my

10 questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Diarra.

12 Any questions out of Judge Diarra's questions?

13 MR. MEEK: Yes, just one.

14 JUDGE LIU: You'll be have to be very quick.

15 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

17 Q. Witness DD, Judge Diarra has made me think of something. That is,

18 can you tell the Trial Chamber the name of the village that you were

19 digging the canal towards?

20 A. I know the name of the village through which we passed by bus in

21 order to get to that area. That's the village of Dobrkovici. And then

22 the road that we were taking went down the hill to the town of Listica,

23 which means that the village was not down at the bottom of the hill, it

24 was up at the top.

25 Q. That's the village name you just mentioned. Was there another

Page 4504

1 village that you had forgotten the name of?

2 A. I'm not aware of there being one.

3 MR. MEEK: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, witness. Thank you for giving your

5 testimony. When the usher pulls down the blinds, you may leave.

6 At this stage, are there any documents to tender from both sides?

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I have no

8 exhibits to tender today.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek?

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I would ask that the map,

11 marked now D1/29, which Witness DD made two marks on and a line on, that

12 be admitted. And the previous -- the picture that I showed Witness DD had

13 been previously marked and admitted as D1/22 so I'm not sure whether I

14 need to give that a new number or not. I don't believe I should. Thank

15 you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any objections to the document D1/29?

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, Your Honour, I don't have any objections.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It is admitted.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, are you handling the next witness?

21 MR. BOS: Good morning, Your Honour. Yes, I'll be handing the

22 next witness.

23 JUDGE LIU: Could you give me some notice who will be the next

24 witness? I mean give me some indication? What is the number on that list

25 you provided us on the 16th of October?

Page 4505

1 MR. BOS: I think he will be the next witness on the list. I

2 won't reveal his name at this stage because we are in public session and

3 he has requested some protective measures, this witness. He would like to

4 have facial distortion and a pseudonym. Well, I'm not sure which list you

5 are referring to, so that's why I'm not -- I don't have the witness list

6 in front of me. I can give you the sheet with the name. Maybe that's

7 easier to clarify.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, does the testimony of this witness have

9 any difference with the previous one?

10 MR. BOS: Well, Your Honour, this witness will testify on a lot of

11 events which are repetitive. We've heard testimony on most of the events

12 he will testify about, so I intend to go through this testimony very

13 swiftly.

14 JUDGE LIU: We understand that in certain jurisdictions, that one

15 witness is no witness, but we have heard the same incidents for many

16 times.

17 MR. BOS: Yes, I'm aware of this, Your Honour, and this is going

18 to be the last witness in the row in this respect, but, yes, again, I can

19 go as swiftly as possible. But we would like to call this witness,

20 though.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: While we're waiting for a moment, perhaps I can

25 assist. It may assist the Chamber. I advised Defence counsel several

Page 4506












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4507

1 days ago that if we conclude these witnesses this week, as you may recall,

2 another Prosecution witness by the name of Prelec, Marko Prelec, has been

3 kind of floating around. We skipped him because of scheduling issues a

4 couple of times. I had advised counsel that, if we have time, we will try

5 to get to him then tomorrow. It seems to me, on the pace that we're on,

6 we very well will get to him tomorrow, and might even start him this

7 afternoon, I suppose.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 After consultations among the Judges, we have decided that we are

10 going to hear this witness on the condition that you have to go through

11 with him as quickly as possible.

12 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. That was my intention. Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any protective measures?

14 MR. BOS: Yes. As I said, the witness has requested facial

15 distortion and a pseudonym.

16 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

17 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honours.

18 MR. PAR: [No interpretation]

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

20 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. While the witness is being led

21 in, let me just refer to the relevant paragraphs in the indictment. The

22 Background, paragraphs 7 and 10; Superior Authority, paragraph 14; General

23 Allegations, paragraphs 18 through 21; count 1, paragraphs 26, 27, 31,

24 34(a), 34(b); counts 2 to 8, paragraph 44; counts 9 to 12, paragraph 45.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 4508

1 [The witness entered court]

2 WITNESS: Witness EE

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

5 A. [No audible response]

6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nodded.

7 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

11 MR. BOS: May I proceed?

12 Examined by Mr. Bos:

13 Q. Witness, you're going to be shown a sheet of paper which shows

14 your name and the name of your pseudonym. Could you look at this sheet of

15 paper and confirm that this is your name and the date of your birth.

16 A. I can.

17 Q. So as you can see, you have been referred to as Witness EE. So in

18 your testimony, I will refer to you as Witness EE. Do you understand

19 that?

20 A. I can understand.

21 MR. BOS: Your Honours, for the first part, I would like to go

22 into private session for a few questions.

23 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

24 [Private session]


Page 4509

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. BOS:

25 Q. Witness, I have been referring to the 9th of May. Can you briefly

Page 4510

1 tell us what happened on the 9th of May.

2 A. On the 9th of May, around half past 3.00 in the morning, fierce

3 shelling began on our building. We woke up. We didn't know what was

4 going on until we went out into the hallway. We found there tearful women

5 and children who started screaming, "We're being attacked. We have been

6 attacked by the Croatian Defence Council."

7 Q. And how long did the attack last?

8 A. The attack continued the whole day of the 9th of May, and on the

9 10th of May, we surrendered, around 2.30 or 3.00. I couldn't say

10 precisely.

11 Q. Could you tell us more about the surrender? What happened when

12 you surrendered?

13 A. When we surrendered, we were ordered to leave the building and

14 stand in front of the School of Economics. We came out, with our arms

15 raised, to the yard outside the School of Economics. Men were separated

16 from women, Muslims were separated to one side, and the Croats had been

17 separated already. There were soldiers there, including Juka.

18 Q. And were these soldiers, were these all HVO soldiers?

19 A. They were.

20 Q. You mentioned a man by the name of Juka. Did you know this man

21 before?

22 A. Not personally.

23 Q. But you did know him, though, although not personally?

24 A. I knew him from the newspapers.

25 Q. Do you know what his full name is?

Page 4511

1 A. I know; Jusuf, Juka, Prazina.

2 Q. Do you recall from which unit this Juka was?

3 A. Juka?

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Juka was on the HVO side. I don't know which unit.

6 Q. Were the members of Juka's unit, did they have any distinctive --

7 first of all, let me ask how did they look like and did they have anything

8 distinctive on them, on their clothes?

9 A. They were wearing yellow strips or ribbons.

10 Q. All right. Now, you testified that the men and women were

11 separated. And what happened next? Where were you -- were you taken

12 somewhere?

13 A. Once separated, we were lined in two rows and taken to the area

14 outside the ministry. Up there at the ministry, we were met. Up there, I

15 saw Mr. Tuta. We were lined up in two rows, and we stood there for a

16 while.

17 Q. Now, you said that you saw a man by the name of Tuta. Could you

18 describe this man, please.

19 A. I could. Grey, grey-haired with a beard, and it's the man sitting

20 here in the courtroom right now.

21 Q. Did you recognise any other people while you -- when you arrived

22 there at the Ministry of Defence?

23 A. No, just him. I recognised only him.

24 Q. You said you recognised him. Had you met the man named Tuta

25 before?

Page 4512

1 A. No, I hadn't. That was the first time.

2 Q. But how were you then so certain that it was Tuta?

3 A. Tuta? How was I sure? Well, I saw him in the newspapers. He was

4 -- how shall I tell you? I didn't know him personally.

5 Q. You just said that you saw the same man here in the courtroom.

6 Could you describe the man in the courtroom you've been referring to?

7 A. Yes, I can. I can. Can I point him out?

8 Q. Yes, please do, and just give a description on how he looks like

9 and where he sits.

10 A. This gentleman.

11 Q. Could you please describe him here in the courtroom, for the

12 record.

13 A. He has grey hair and beard.

14 JUDGE LIU: Could the witness please sit down.

15 MR. BOS:

16 Q. You have to sit down, I'm sorry. All right. Grey hair and a

17 beard.

18 MR. BOS: May the record reflect that the witness has identified

19 the accused Mladen Naletilic.

20 Q. Now, you said that you saw Mr. Tuta when you arrived at the

21 Ministry of Defence. Please tell me what happened.

22 A. Down there we were also standing, lined in two rows. Mr. Tuta

23 beckoned to one. [redacted]

24 Q. Sorry, please don't refer to names unless I ask you but -- please

25 continue but don't refer to names any more. So he was -- yeah, please

Page 4513

1 continue where you were. So he was --

2 A. I saw him starting to hit this gentleman. He hit him with a

3 Motorola and said, "Where have you been, blood brother?" That's all I

4 heard and saw. As for the rest, I couldn't see well.

5 Q. Did you see where this person was hit with the Motorola?

6 A. Yes, this person was struck in the face.

7 Q. Did anything happen with the Motorola when this person was hit?

8 A. The Motorola, it remained in his hand. I didn't see whether it

9 was damaged or not. I know that the man was bleeding, though.

10 Q. What happened after this?

11 A. After that, an argument -- dispute occurred between Tuta and

12 another man. And at that moment, the bus arrived. And then Mr. Tuta

13 said, "Take those shits up there. They will hang at Siroki Brijeg." And

14 when we were boarding the bus, a group of soldiers started to hit us.

15 Q. Now, Witness, did this man, Tuta, also speak with a man named

16 Juka?

17 A. Tuta, when he hit that gentleman, Juka came at that moment and

18 said, "Don't touch him any more." And he sort of separated this gentleman

19 from Tuta. He took him slightly to one side.

20 Q. And did Tuta, after speaking to Juka, say anything else? Did he

21 say anything else to the group?

22 A. I couldn't hear well. I don't remember him saying anything.

23 Q. Were you able to observe everything what happened before the

24 Ministry of Defence in a clear way?

25 A. I couldn't see everything clearly. All I could see clearly was

Page 4514

1 that, because I was standing close by when he was hitting this gentleman.

2 Q. Why couldn't you not observe everything else clearly? Was there

3 any particular reason for that?

4 A. We had to keep our arms behind our back and our heads down. We

5 had to look down.

6 Q. You testified at one moment you were taken to a bus and that you

7 were assaulted when you were walking towards the bus. Who assaulted you?

8 A. We were assaulted by some members of the Croatian Defence

9 Council. I don't know which unit.

10 Q. Where were you taken to?

11 A. We were taken to Siroki Brijeg, to the prison.

12 Q. What happened when you arrived at the prison? What was the name

13 of the prison? Do you recall what building it was?

14 A. It was the MUP building, the MUP. We were lined up there. They

15 confiscated our cigarettes, identity cards, lighters, shoelaces, trouser

16 belts. And then we were taken down to the cells.

17 Q. Were people being beaten while you were lined up in front of the

18 MUP station?

19 A. I only saw one man who was struck by a member of the MUP, because

20 he recognised him. He asked, "Are you an operative worker?" He said,

21 "No, I'm an intelligence man." Then this MUP member hit him several

22 times after that. And after that, we were taken away, taken down.

23 Q. You said you were taken down. Where were you taken to?

24 A. We were taken to the basement, to cells in the basement of that

25 building. There were two cells, and that's where they put us and locked

Page 4515












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13 English transcripts.













Page 4516

1 us up.

2 Q. Now, Witness, do you recall a man by the name of Kazim Mesic?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Who is he?

5 A. He was already down there when we arrived. That's why I remember

6 him. He had come before we did.

7 Q. Just looking at the transcript, could you please spell his last

8 name, or spell his full name, please.

9 A. K-A-Z-I-M M-E-S-I-C.

10 Q. Thank you. When you were detained at the MUP station, were people

11 ever mistreated?

12 A. Yes, they were. They were.

13 Q. Can you tell us who mistreated you?

14 A. I can. It was Romeo Blazevic.

15 Q. How do you know this person?

16 A. [redacted]

17 Q. Please explain to us what happened when Romeo Blazevic came into

18 your cell.

19 A. Romeo Blazevic, when he entered the cell, lashed out with a sort

20 of a whip. He started beating us, one after another. He hit me in the

21 head once and he also hit me on my shoulder. Then he went on to beat -- I

22 don't remember the names. He broke one man's nose. He hit another on the

23 head. And someone -- and --

24 Q. Witness, sorry to interrupt. You said he broke one man's nose.

25 Do you recall the name of the man whose nose was broken? And please don't

Page 4517

1 mention the name yet because I think we will have to go into private

2 session for that.

3 MR. BOS: Can we go briefly into private session, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]


Page 4518

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. How many days did you spend in the MUP station, Witness EE?

6 A. We spent ten days there.

7 Q. Were you ever taken out to do work during that detention?

8 A. Yes. They took us to work at the swimming pool, to clean it out,

9 in order to make it to work again.

10 Q. After those ten days, where were you taken?

11 A. They took us to Ljubuski. At Ljubuski, we spent one night. And

12 the next day they came for us. Jablanica came and brought out 20 of us

13 who had worked and told us that we had to go back to Siroki Brijeg.

14 Q. Where were you taken then, when you were taken back to Siroki

15 Brijeg?

16 A. In Siroki Brijeg, they took us to that Tobacco Institute.

17 Q. How long did you stay at the Tobacco Institute?

18 A. Seven and a half months.

19 Q. Now, during this period, did you ever see this man Tuta again?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Can you tell us, briefly, on each occasion where you saw him and

22 the circumstances.

23 A. I saw him when we worked on the canal, when we were digging the

24 water supply canal. At one -- on one occasion, he came over, and I heard

25 him say, "I hear that you're" -- and I overheard him say to the guards, "I

Page 4519

1 hear people are dying here. They are starving. If you can't feed them,

2 maybe you should just let them die."

3 Q. Just to clarify this, so you're saying that you saw Tuta speaking

4 to a guard; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What you just testified is what Tuta said to the guard?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were the other occasions that you saw Tuta?

9 A. At the Tobacco Institute. We also cleaned something. They were

10 turning it into a training centre for recruits. And so I worked there

11 once and not after that.

12 Q. You said that you saw Tuta there. What did he do? Did he say

13 anything? Did he speak to you?

14 A. He didn't say anything. He was just monitoring how the work was

15 progressing.

16 Q. So were there any other occasions that you saw Tuta?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You said you worked at the swimming pool. Did you ever see Tuta

19 at the swimming pool?

20 A. I cannot recall that I ever saw him at the swimming pool.

21 Q. Could you explain briefly; you've mentioned that you worked on a

22 canal and that you worked a swimming pool. What were the other jobs that

23 you were assigned to during the detention period?

24 A. We worked at Ivan Cikota's house. We worked on that house. We

25 were unloading the Caritas trucks. We were taking down some bags at the

Page 4520

1 hospital. We also worked at a factory. I don't know what it was called.

2 I forget. And we also swept the area on the compound of the Tobacco

3 Institute.

4 Q. Witness, were you ever taken on an assignment to Mostar?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us about that.

7 A. Can you please repeat this.

8 Q. My question was were you ever taken for an assignment to Mostar,

9 and you said that -- so my question is, could you please explain what

10 happened when you were taken there, who took you, and what did you have to

11 do?

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

13 MR. MEEK: I apologise, Your Honours. I object to the form of the

14 question unless we can have a time frame. This witness was in a camp for

15 eight or nine months. So what time frame are we talking about?

16 JUDGE LIU: So you want to know the specific time.

17 MR. BOS: We can clarify.

18 Q. Witness, I suppose you heard what the Defence counsel just said.

19 Do you approximately remember when this was that you were taken for this

20 assignment?

21 A. I don't recall exactly when I was taken there. A lot of time has

22 passed. I cannot recall the exact date when I was taken there.

23 Q. It doesn't matter if you don't remember, but please tell me what

24 you do remember about this assignment.

25 A. Two soldiers came and took out four of us. They told us that we

Page 4521

1 were going to go to Mostar to work there. They brought us to Mostar,

2 again, to the Vranica building. And there was a coffee shop there. We

3 waited there for a while, and then they took us to a place where we were

4 to carry dynamite. First we were taken to the Health Centre to check out

5 the sewage systems to see whether we could carry the dynamite through

6 those -- through the sewage. We couldn't. Then they took us back to the

7 high school. There, we first unloaded the dynamite. Nearby is the house

8 of Edo Bajram, and that's where we unloaded it. And then we started

9 carrying it through those pipes. We worked on that for two days and one

10 night. And the second evening, we were brought back.

11 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a few questions for clarification.

12 First of all, you said that you were taken by two soldiers. Do you

13 remember the names of these soldiers?

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. And do you remember for which unit these soldiers were serving;

16 which army and which unit?

17 A. The army was the Croatian Defence Council, and the unit, probably

18 ATG, probably the Convicts ATG, I believe.

19 Q. Why do you say "probably the ATG"?

20 A. I am not sure. I know that the -- it was Croatian Defence Council

21 soldiers, but I'm not sure.

22 Q. And you said that you were taken first to a bar. What did you do

23 at the bar?

24 A. We sat and waited.

25 Q. Do you know why you had to wait?

Page 4522

1 A. I don't, but they mentioned that Romeo Blazevic was supposed to

2 come, so we just sat there. We did not hear the rest of the

3 conversation. We did not know what we had to wait for. But one of them

4 said, "Do you know whether Romeo's coming?" So I don't know. We waited

5 there for a while longer. He never appeared. And then we were taken to

6 look for a place where we could enter the sewage system, where we would

7 carry that dynamite.

8 Q. Just one more question on the soldiers. Did they wear uniforms,

9 the two soldiers who took you there?

10 A. They were wearing uniforms.

11 Q. Did they have a badge, if you can recall?

12 A. I don't. I don't recall any insignia.

13 Q. Now, you said then that you were taken behind the high school.

14 What was the name of that high school?

15 A. That was the high school at the line of separation. I cannot

16 recall now what the high school was called.

17 Q. If you say "at the line of separation," can you give us the name

18 of the street where this line of separation was?

19 A. Bulevar.

20 Q. Now, you said that you had to carry explosives through a

21 drainage. Where did you have to take that explosives to?

22 A. There was a manhole near the high school, and that's where we

23 entered, and we carried it over to the other side.

24 Q. When you say "the other side," what do you mean by that?

25 A. We crossed over to the side of the ABiH, and that's where we set

Page 4523

1 the dynamite, under the court building. I don't know all the points,

2 because from those sewer pipes, you could not see around.

3 Q. How long did it take you to bring these explosives through the

4 drainage underneath the courthouse?

5 A. Fifteen to 20 minutes.

6 Q. How many people were you doing this?

7 A. Three.

8 MR. BOS: And if we can go into private session for just a couple

9 of questions.

10 JUDGE LIU: We will go into the private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]


Page 4524












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4525

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. Witness, after your detention at the Tobacco Institute, where were

6 you taken?

7 A. We were taken to the Heliodrom.

8 Q. And was this in --

9 A. We were told that we were going to be exchanged, and then we spent

10 there another two months, two, two and a half months.

11 Q. Which months did you spend in the Heliodrom?

12 A. Two and a half months.

13 Q. When -- you remember the month that you arrived at the Heliodrom

14 and the month that you were released?

15 A. January and March.

16 Q. Of which year?

17 A. 1994.

18 Q. Now, what -- did you have to do any work while you were at the

19 Heliodrom?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you have to do?

22 A. I dug trenches and I also worked for the Croatian army, which was

23 stationed at the Heliodrom.

24 Q. So you say that you worked for the Croatian army which was

25 stationed at the Heliodrom. Can you be a bit more specific? Were there

Page 4526

1 any specific units that were stationed there?

2 A. Yes. The Tigers were there, and the Thunderbolts were there.

3 Q. What did you have to do for them?

4 A. Well, we went to clean their premises, to wash their clothes, to

5 clean their toilets, rooms, and so on. Things like that.

6 MR. BOS: I have no further questions for this witness, Your

7 Honour.

8 Thank you, Witness EE.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Cross-examination, Mr. Meek.

11 Could I give you a piece of advice?

12 MR. MEEK: Absolutely.

13 JUDGE LIU: Can you take us directly to the Ministry of Defence.

14 MR. MEEK: I will be most happy to do that, Your Honour. And

15 while I do that, I would like the Registry, please, to hand the witness

16 what has been previously marked and admitted as D1/22.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

18 Q. Good morning, Witness EE.

19 A. Good morning.

20 Q. My name is Mr. Meek, and I am one of the counsel for

21 Mr. Naletilic. I have a few questions to ask you.

22 First, on the ELMO, on your screen, you notice there's a picture

23 of a building. Do you see that, sir?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. And can you identify that building by name, by any chance?

Page 4527

1 A. This is the building which currently is housing the parks and

2 recreation department. But the buildings around it or behind it are the

3 Vranica buildings. I cannot see very well.

4 Q. Witness EE, back in 1993, more specifically, May 9th or 10th of

5 1993, did that building that's indicated on the ELMO have a different

6 name? Or do you know?

7 A. I don't know about that building.

8 Q. Thank you very much. That's all I need for that picture. Thank

9 you.

10 You've testified that on the 10th of May, you surrendered in the

11 town of Mostar to a soldier named Juka. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you said that you did not know him personally, but you knew

14 him from newspapers. Is that also correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he famous in the newspapers in the Mostar area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was he a famous soldier?

19 A. He was.

20 Q. Do you know what command position that he held?

21 A. I don't know if he had any command position.

22 Q. I'm not going to mention any names, but you did have a brother

23 that was with you on the 10th of May. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And can you tell us how close he was to you when you and the other

Page 4528

1 individuals from the building had stopped marching and were lined up?

2 A. We were next to each other.

3 Q. You testified, Witness EE, that you observed Mr. Tuta strike an

4 individual with the Motorola on that occasion. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you looking directly at this individual and Mr. Tuta?

7 A. I did not look straight. I did not dare.

8 Q. Did you observe the Motorola fall at any point after this incident

9 or during this incident?

10 A. I did not see the Motorola fall.

11 Q. Did you ever see the Motorola break?

12 A. No, no, I did not see it break. I don't know.

13 Q. Witness EE, after you had arrived at this location after your

14 march, can you tell me how much time had elapsed until the incident with

15 the Motorola?

16 A. After the arrival. How long it took us to get there?

17 Q. No, no -- how long did it take you to get there?

18 A. It took us five to ten minutes from there to the ministry.

19 Q. Witness EE, once you stopped there, how much time, approximately,

20 elapsed until the incident with the Motorola?

21 A. That was right away, as soon as he recognised him.

22 Q. And about this recognition, did it appear to you, Witness EE, that

23 Mr. Tuta knew this individual from a previous occasion or occasions?

24 A. He knew him. That is what he told him. He said, "Where have you

25 been, blood brother?"

Page 4529

1 Q. And after this incident, immediately after this incident, Juka

2 Prazina stopped this, did he not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And because of the actions of Juka Prazina in front of all of

5 those soldiers that day, it was your opinion that Juka was independent of

6 Tuta, Mr. Tuta. Is that not correct?

7 A. No, it did not appear to me that he was independent.

8 MR. MEEK: It's almost lunch. I have one question before lunch.

9 Q. Witness EE, did you ever state to the Office of the Prosecutor

10 that you had the feeling that Juka was independent from Tuta? Do you

11 recall that?

12 A. I don't recall it.

13 MR. MEEK: Is it time for lunch, Your Honours?

14 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 2.00.

15 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.











Page 4530

1 --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours, thank you.

4 Q. Witness EE, right before the lunch break, I asked you a question

5 about your statement. Do you recall that you gave that statement on April

6 27th, 1997?

7 A. I don't.

8 Q. Well, perhaps you don't remember the exact date, but do you recall

9 giving a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor and there was actually

10 a Prosecutor named Susan Somers there?

11 A. I don't think that there was a Prosecutor when I was giving my

12 statement.

13 Q. But you do recall giving a statement?

14 A. I do recall.

15 MR. MEEK: Okay. I would ask the usher, please, to hand the

16 witness a copy in Croatian. It will be page 5 on the Serbo-Croatian

17 copy.

18 Q. And Witness EE, would you just take a look at that for a moment to

19 familiarise yourself with it or to refresh your recollection.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?

21 MR. BOS: I'm wondering what the reference will be on the English

22 version.

23 MR. MEEK: The English version will be page 4, first full

24 paragraph.

25 Q. Have you looked at that statement, Witness EE?

Page 4531

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. And can you state that this is a statement that you gave to the

3 Office of the Prosecutor concerning the events which occurred in your life

4 in 1993 and early 1994?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Would you please read the marked portion, which would

7 be page 5, I think, on the Croatian version.

8 A. "Then Juka approached Tuta and said, 'Those are my men. Don't hit

9 him.' Juka then took Pobric aside. I didn't see him thereafter. There

10 was an argument between Tuta and Juka but I couldn't hear them. Due to

11 this incident, I got the feeling, the impression, that Juka was

12 independent of Tuta."

13 Q. Thank you very much, Witness EE.

14 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Usher. That's all I needed on that. Thank

15 you.

16 Q. Witness EE, you've testified earlier today about your time in

17 Siroki Brijeg and Heliodrom and Ljubuski; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, without giving any names, you do know the witness who

20 testified just previous to your testimony today? You know that

21 individual, correct?

22 A. I don't.

23 MR. MEEK: Well, may we go to closed session very briefly --

24 private session, excuse me.

25 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

Page 4532

1 [Private session]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]


Page 4533












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4534

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]


5 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

6 Q. Witness EE, you have testified about certain work you did digging

7 a canal while in Siroki Brijeg. Correct?

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Did you work in the same crew with the individual who testified

10 this morning previously to your testimony?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And when you -- were you present on the occasion that you were

13 getting ready to get back on the bus from digging or working on this

14 canal, and you observed Mr. Tuta speaking with the guards?

15 A. Yes.

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 A. I don't remember how close I was to him.

24 Q. Approximately how many individuals were working that day on this

25 canal?

Page 4535

1 A. About 20.

2 Q. And were you getting ready to go back to Siroki Brijeg after a

3 day's work?

4 A. Yes, we were.

5 Q. And were you all together in a group, more or less?

6 A. We were.

7 Q. And was Mr. Tuta in civilian clothes?

8 A. He was.

9 Q. And Mr. Tuta was speaking with the guards some distance from your

10 group of individuals working on the canal. Correct?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. And is this the instance where you have testified that you claimed

13 that you heard he made a statement to the guards, or was this a different

14 occasion?

15 A. That is, that is.

16 Q. Same occasion. Correct?

17 A. Yes, it is.

18 Q. How far was the group of men that you were with from Mr. Tuta and

19 the guards?

20 A. Four to five metres.

21 Q. Mr. Tuta was not shouting, was he?

22 A. He wasn't shouting.

23 Q. And during this time, were not you, the other witness, and the

24 other people who were working on the canal talking among each other?

25 A. We weren't.

Page 4536

1 Q. The other time -- the only other time that you saw Mr. Tuta would

2 have been when you were cleaning something or working at the Tobacco

3 Institute in Siroki Brijeg. Correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Now, Witness EE, when you were working on the canal, the digging

6 of this canal, could you ever observe from your locations any houses in

7 the vicinity?

8 A. From that location, one could see both the town and the houses,

9 from that place where we were working.

10 Q. How many houses could you see, not in the town but the houses you

11 just referred to?

12 A. Houses? I didn't count them, to tell the truth. I can't say

13 exactly how many houses there were.

14 Q. I can understand that, but can you give us an estimate? Were

15 there five? Were there ten? Or more?

16 A. Four to five, maybe more, but approximately there were five.

17 Q. Neither you nor the group of individuals you were with ever worked

18 at any of those houses in that area, did you?

19 A. There, no.

20 Q. I would like to ask you about the incident with Romeo while you

21 were in the MUP station in Siroki Brijeg. First, were you in the same

22 cell with the witness who testified right before you today?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you describe for me this individual who you called Romeo.

25 A. Describe him? Short, baldish, brown eyes. What else? I can't

Page 4537

1 really give you a detailed description.

2 Q. I believe it's a fact that you knew this individual from years --

3 for years before this. Is this correct?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. And did you testify, Witness EE, that this individual, Romeo, had

6 a cafe bar in the city of Mostar?

7 A. He does --

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos?

9 MR. BOS: I don't think he ever testified to that.

10 MR. MEEK: I'll rephrase the question.

11 Q. Do you know, Witness EE --

12 JUDGE LIU: You have to be very careful, Mr. Meek.

13 MR. MEEK: Yes. I will try, Your Honours, I promise.

14 Q. Witness EE, did you know this individual called Romeo prior to

15 Siroki Brijeg?

16 A. I did.

17 Q. Can you tell me how long you had known him?

18 A. A fairly long time, but we didn't socialise. He belongs to an

19 older generation. [redacted].

20 Q. Did Romeo, at sometime prior to May of 1993, own or operate a

21 coffee bar in the city of Mostar?

22 A. He did.

23 Q. Can you tell me, please, where was the location of this coffee

24 bar?

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, you should not ask this question. If it's

Page 4538

1 really important, we have to go to the private session.

2 MR. MEEK: Please, momentarily for the private session, please.

3 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Can the other microphone also be turned on for

18 the witness?

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Usher? Did you hear the interpreter? Now we are in

20 the open session.

21 MR. MEEK:

22 Q. When Romeo came into the cell in Siroki Brijeg at the MUP station,

23 was he looking for any specific person, if you know?

24 A. He wasn't.

25 Q. Was he -- had he been drinking before he came in, if you know?

Page 4539

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. He didn't act drunk or out of control?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Will you briefly describe for me this leather weapon that he --

5 you claim he had?

6 A. Weapon? How shall I describe it? It looked like a whip, like a

7 belt, or something of that kind. It had knots tied on top, on the tip,

8 and that's what he hit me with.

9 Q. Can you indicate about how many centimetres long this object was?

10 A. I don't know. I couldn't.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 This Romeo did not indicate that anybody had ordered him to come

13 into that cell that night, did he?

14 A. No. He never even talked to us.

15 Q. Witness EE, did you have the opportunity to - or did you, in

16 fact - read the statement that you gave to the OTP before your testimony

17 today?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. During your statement that you've read for your testimony today,

20 why did you not mention this incident with the dynamite or explosives in

21 Mostar?

22 A. Why? I didn't remember to. I don't know.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 From your personal knowledge, if you know, did Romeo have a

25 brother who had been killed in the war prior to May 9th or 10th, 1993?

Page 4540

1 A. I knew he had a brother. I didn't know he had been killed.

2 Q. And while you were at the Heliodrom in January of 1994 to March

3 1994, tell the Trial Chamber who was the person in charge of the section

4 of the prison where you were confined?

5 A. I can't recall the name. I don't remember. It has been a long

6 time.

7 MR. MEEK: With the help of the usher, I would ask this witness to

8 just refresh his recollection by looking at the very last page of your

9 statement to the Office of the Prosecutor given April 26th, 1997. For

10 Mr. Bos, it would be page 5 of the English version.

11 Q. Witness EE, does this statement that you made refresh your

12 recollection of who was in charge of the section of the prison that you

13 were confined at the Heliodrom?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And please tell the Trial Chamber, who was that individual? What

16 was his name?

17 A. "The person who was in charge of the section of the prison where I

18 was confined was Buhovac. I think the first name was Ante".

19 Q. Could you please spell that for the record.

20 A. Just the name or should I read it all?

21 Q. Just the name, please, the individual's name.

22 A. B-U-H-O-V-A-C.

23 Q. And you believe his first name to be Ante, A-N-T-E. Correct?

24 A. Here it says in the statement.

25 Q. Thank you. Thank you.

Page 4541

1 While at the Heliodrom, Witness EE, were the military police

2 officers the guards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The witness before you, immediately before you, testified that

5 during this period of time, from 10th of May, 1993, until the release in

6 March of 1994, that he was not physically mistreated, only psychologically

7 mistreated. Does that also accord with your recollection from your

8 personal experience?

9 A. Can you please repeat the date.

10 Q. From the time you were taken into custody in May of 1993 until

11 your release in 1994, March.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Bos?

13 MR. BOS: I have to intervene because I think Mr. Meek didn't

14 really reflect well what was said by the witness who testified before

15 him. He did say that he was physically mistreated in the beginning. He

16 didn't say that during that whole period, he wasn't physically mistreated

17 at all. So I think that should be clarified for the record.

18 MR. MEEK: I'll clarify it. Thank you, Mr. Bos.

19 JUDGE LIU: That's also what we heard this morning.

20 MR. MEEK: I'll clarify that, Your Honours. I apologise.

21 Q. The witness who testified immediately before you indicated that at

22 the very first, which would be in May of 1993, there was some

23 mistreatment, but after that, there was no physical mistreatment, just

24 psychological. Is this about right?

25 A. You're talking about him, not about me. I think that you may have

Page 4542












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4543

1 been talking about the other witness here. I don't think that I can speak

2 on his behalf.

3 Q. Yes. I'm not asking you -- I'm asking you from your personal

4 experiences, would you agree that that is what happened to you also, or

5 not?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

8 Your Honour, I have no further questions. I thank the witness for

9 coming to testify.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examinations, Mr. Par?

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No cross-examination, thank you, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr. Bos?

14 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from judges?

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE CLARK: May I ask you, Witness, to clarify, because I didn't

18 catch it properly and I don't think the transcript is quite clear. When

19 you were describing the day that you were working on the canal and that

20 you saw Tuta --

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE CLARK: -- who spoke to one of the guards, you said he was

23 in civilian clothes. What did he actually say? I didn't catch it. It

24 wasn't well-transcribed.

25 A. "I hear that your people are dying of hunger. It's better that

Page 4544

1 you kill them than keep them in -- imprisoned, hungry."

2 JUDGE CLARK: Is there anything else there? It doesn't really

3 make sense as it's appeared on the transcript. What did he say when he

4 said, "Your people are dying of hunger. It's better that you keep them,"

5 meaning all of you -- I see the word has come up now, "hungry." "It's

6 better that you keep them in prison hungry"? Is that what he said?

7 Now, on a more general question, did anybody ever explain to you,

8 or to anybody in your group, why you were being detained, either at the

9 MUP or Siroki Brijeg or in -- in the Heliodrom?

10 A. No. No one told us anything why we were imprisoned.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Did you have any contact with members of your

12 family? Did you have any visits or any parcels or any information?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Nothing at all. Who told you that you were going to

15 be exchanged for other prisoners at the Heliodrom?

16 A. When they took us to the Heliodrom, but I don't recall the names.

17 They told us, "You're now going to be exchanged," but instead, we stayed

18 there another two and a half months.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Did most of your information come from the guards

20 rather than from a delegation of officers?

21 A. Mostly from the guards.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Now, I just want -- my last question is, we've heard

23 from other witnesses about a group described as the Tigers or the

24 Thunderbolts. Who are these people?

25 A. That was the Croatian army.

Page 4545

1 JUDGE CLARK: Were they a unit in the Croatian army, or units?

2 A. Yes, those were two units. One was the Tigers. The other one was

3 the Thunderbolts.

4 JUDGE CLARK: You seem to have had quite a lot of contact with

5 them because you described how you had to look after them, wash their

6 clothes and clean their rooms and activities like that.

7 A. I did not have much contact. I went there once and this is what

8 happened to me. They took me there once. There were several people in

9 that group.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Was it in a separate place to where you were kept in

11 the Heliodrom? We know -- we've seen photographs. It's a very big

12 place. Were there separate quarters for Croatian army units?

13 A. That was on the perimeter of the Heliodrom.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for giving the evidence. When the

16 usher pulls the blinds down, you may go.

17 At this stage, are there any documents to tender from both sides?

18 Yes, Mr. Bos.

19 MR. BOS: No, no documents from the Prosecution.

20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek?

21 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I believe the only document I showed this

22 witness was the previous Defence document D1/22. And so it has already

23 been admitted. The witness couldn't identify it. I don't believe I need

24 to admit it again. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 4546

1 Witness, you may go now.

2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

3 [Witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

5 MR. SCOTT: Good afternoon, Mr. President. As I indicated

6 earlier, it looks as if we can get to Mr. Prelec this afternoon. So in

7 preparation to do so, if we can shift around here a bit, and then there

8 are several packets of documents to be distributed at this time.

9 Perhaps while that's being done, Mr. President, I can explain what

10 these documents are so when we get to them in a few minutes, it will be

11 clear. I'm asking that three bundles be provided to everyone in the

12 courtroom at this moment. These documents have all been tendered or seen

13 before in the sense that they are really subsets of other documents out of

14 either the 17 binders or from 2 binders called International Armed

15 Conflict documents that were provided to Defence counsel some weeks ago.

16 And thirdly, if we get to it today -- if we get to it tomorrow, I

17 suppose -- it was the same bundle of documents that was used with a prior

18 witness -- it was a public witness, so I think I can say. That was used

19 with Mr. Smajkic concerning the -- it was a bundle of documents that I

20 tendered concerning the Vance-Owen plan. And if we get to those

21 documents, I think Mr. Prelec can simply confirm the source of those

22 documents and what they are.

23 So if I can just see where we are on all that, it may be easier,

24 Mr. President. There will be a notebook like this, which are marked

25 "Selected Zagreb Archive Documents." Then there will be a -- actually,

Page 4547

1 this bundle. There will be another short packet of documents that's

2 coming out now that, again, is from the Zagreb archive. They are marked

3 differently for reasons I will explain when we get to that point.

4 And Mr. President, I hope that this will be -- as we move through

5 here, once the documents have been distributed, we will do it in a way

6 that hopefully I can make not confusing as we get to particular

7 documents.

8 And then there's a fourth bundle -- there's another bundle

9 actually, not the fourth bundle. What I am calling the Vance-Owen bundle

10 are documents that were tendered some days ago. I'm not producing them

11 again. Perhaps if we don't get to them this afternoon, if the Chamber

12 still has those available, and counsel still has them, they may want them

13 to have those available for the final part of this testimony. But I

14 didn't make new sets, obviously, yet again.

15 It was the bundle of documents starting with what has been marked

16 as IAC-27. And just, Mr. President, so you and Your Honours know, IAC is

17 simply our abbreviation for "International Armed Conflict." And there are

18 two separate binders of documents going specifically to the issue of

19 international armed conflict, which, again, we will get to at some future

20 time, but which have been disclosed and distributed to the Defence.

21 As I started to say a moment ago, I saw this -- what I am calling

22 the Vance-Owen bundle, I saw that in my hands, and I wanted to bring that

23 to the Chamber's attention. Then there's another blue binder which is

24 titled -- it's entitled, in part, "UNPROFOR." The reason I'm hesitating

25 is that because some of these documents were submitted under Rule 70, and

Page 4548

1 we are going to submit these under seal. But there's another bundle of

2 documents like the blue bundle, part of the title says "UNPROFOR." And

3 there's a list of approximately -- I don't know, looking at it just

4 offhand, probably about 15 documents or so.

5 So, those have been distributed. Then the witness can be

6 brought. I'm happy to report, Mr. President, this witness is not

7 testifying with any protective measures. There's no issue about that.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 WITNESS: Marko Prelec

10 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please make the solemn

13 declaration.

14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

15 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Examined by Mr. Scott:

19 Q. Mr. Prelec, will you state your full name for the record and spell

20 your last name, please.

21 A. Marko Prelec, and the last name is spelled P-r-e-l-e-c.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm going to take the witness through

23 some of his personal background and I would -- I'm going to assume that I

24 can do that by way of leading. If there is something that counsel think

25 is particularly, for some reason, sensitive, I'm sure they can -- I'm sure

Page 4549

1 they will intervene.

2 Q. Mr. Prelec, you were born -- is it correct you were born in

3 Zagreb, Croatia, in 1966?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Your family then went to the United States in 1967, and you became

6 an American citizen in 1977; is that right?

7 A. That's right as well.

8 Q. And did you do your undergraduate -- receive your undergraduate

9 education at Harvard University?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you completed a doctorate in history, that is a Ph.D. in

12 history at Yale in 1997?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, throughout your studies and in

15 particular with regard to your doctorate at Yale, what your area of study

16 was.

17 A. South-eastern Europe, and my dissertation was on former Yugoslavia.

18 Q. Is it correct, sir, that after completing your doctorate, you

19 taught at several colleges and universities and at one point also were

20 teaching at the United States Naval Academy?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in May of 1999, did you take up your present post as a

23 research officer with the Office of the Prosecutor here in The Hague?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Prelec, I'll caution both of us. It's been actually some days

Page 4550

1 or some time since I had a witness who speaks the same language as I do so

2 we may have a tendency, both of us, to speak too quickly or speak over

3 each other. So if we could both pause for translation, it would probably

4 assist.

5 Is it fair to say that, through the education and your vocation

6 that you've told us about in the last few minutes, you are a historian and

7 have applied those skills, both as an academic, if you will, and in your

8 work here, for instance, in terms of research and investigation,

9 particularly in connection with documentary material?

10 A. Yes, it's correct.

11 Q. Have you ever worked with archive collections of documents in the

12 course of your professional life?

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, could I stop you here. We hear some French

14 translations through the earphone.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness turn the volume down.

16 A. I was listening to the French channel to know when the translation

17 had stopped. I'll turn it down.

18 JUDGE LIU: Because there is some confusions. Thank you. I'm

19 sorry to interrupt.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Mr. Prelec, my question to you was: In the course of your

22 professional work, have you worked with archives and large collections of

23 documents?

24 A. Yes, I have; several different archives in different countries.

25 Q. Can you just briefly describe to the Chamber some of your

Page 4551












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 4552

1 experience in that regard.

2 A. Yes. Most of my research was in Croatia, actually in the Croatian

3 state archive, although a different part of it from what I will be

4 testifying about today. I also worked in the archive in Zadar, Croatia,

5 the archive of an institute in Ljubljana which actually contained

6 materials from Habsburg Austrian court.

7 Q. When you say Ljubljana, everyone may know, but just so the record

8 is clear, is that in Slovenia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Go ahead.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be instructed to put the

12 volume down on his headphones.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Prelec --

14 JUDGE LIU: You may advise your witness.


16 Q. Mr. Prelec, apparently the interpreters are still getting too much

17 interference.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Prelec, you have French in your headphones

19 too loud. If you could turn it down a bit, please.

20 A. Should I continue?

21 MR. SCOTT: You may also want to turn on the second microphone.

22 That might also help pick up your voice.

23 Mr. President, I think what the witness was telling us is what he

24 was trying to do is listen to the French translation so he could time his

25 responses, but apparently it doesn't work very well technologically.

Page 4553

1 Q. All right. Please continue.

2 A. As I was saying, also the national archives of the United States,

3 and they are near Washington in Maryland, and the main government archive

4 in Vienna, Austria.

5 Q. All right. Very well. Not going to touch -- stay on any of these

6 topics very extensively, but bringing us, then, to your position here at

7 the ICTY, can you describe very briefly what your position is and what

8 that involves on a day-to-day basis.

9 A. Yes. The title of my position is research officer, and

10 essentially, I do various kinds of research in mostly primary-source

11 documents, also to an extent open-source documents, such as newspapers and

12 the like, and witness material that's been developed by this institution

13 and other institutions, and I attempt to synthesise that material into an

14 explanation of mostly, for the most part, government structures, both the

15 formal government structures, to a degree the military structures, and

16 also to a degree what could be called informal or de facto structures of

17 power and authority in the countries of the former Yugoslavia.

18 Q. All right. When you said a moment ago, "primary-source material,"

19 what does that mean?

20 A. It's a technical term in history. It simply refers to documents

21 as they are created, and it's used in opposition to secondary-source

22 material, which would be articles and scholarly works.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. The raw evidence, so to speak.

25 Q. Can you tell the Chamber briefly, in the course of your work at

Page 4554

1 the ICTY, does this involve looking at one particular document, so to

2 speak, in isolation, or does your work typically involve looking at a body

3 of documents together?

4 A. It almost never involves looking at a document in isolation. It

5 almost always involves looking at, well, really, all the sources I can

6 find that bear on a particular issue.

7 Q. All right. What I'd like to direct your attention to now, sir, is

8 can you briefly describe to the Chamber a history of efforts to access an

9 archive in Zagreb and when that access to that archive was obtained by the

10 Office of the Prosecutor.

11 A. As I understand it, there was a lengthy prehistory to this,

12 involving requests for assistance, binding orders of several Trial

13 Chambers and I think other types of legal instruments addressed to Croatia

14 over the course of several years. I'm not terribly familiar with that but

15 I am aware that that transpired. When the government in Croatia changed,

16 we, after some time, after several months, did obtain a limited degree of

17 access to what was colloquially referred to as "the HVO archive," or

18 rather, part of it that was held by one particular organisation, the

19 Croatian Information Service or HIS, in the spring, April or May, of last

20 year.

21 Q. When you say the Croatian Information Service, can you just

22 briefly tell the Chamber what kind of an organisation that is, as far as

23 you know.

24 A. Based on public record and limited other information, it's a

25 civilian intelligence agency, basically an analytical agency of the

Page 4555

1 Croatian government that's subordinate to the president of the republic.

2 Q. And you said a moment ago that -- I'll just pause for a moment.

3 Probably started too soon.

4 You said a moment ago that you obtained some limited access

5 initially. Did you gain more access to this - you and others on behalf of

6 the Office of the Prosecutor - gain more access to this collection of

7 documents over time?

8 A. Yes. In the summer of last year, the materials that we had had

9 access to in the custody of the HIS, together with other materials that

10 came from the custody of various parts of the Croatian Ministry of

11 Defence, were all transferred to the Croatian State Archive. And we very

12 quickly received access to that collection in its entirety, although it

13 took the archival staff, or so we were told, several months to organise

14 and make available the full collection.

15 Q. All right. Now, when you say the Croatian State Archive, was this

16 a pre-existing actual official archive of the government or the state of

17 the Republic of Croatia or, as contrasted, for instance, to some

18 collection of documents that was put together, say, on an ad hoc basis?

19 A. No, it's an official archive. It contains, you know, material

20 from the medieval period on to the present.

21 Q. Now, going to this particular collection of documents that we're

22 going to talk about today, you said a moment ago that this was referred to

23 as "the HVO archive." Can you assist the Chamber a bit more, with a bit

24 more information about that.

25 A. Well, it was, for the most part, a collection of materials that

Page 4556

1 originated from the Croatian Defence Council, or the HVO. There were

2 smaller collections that were together with it that originated from the

3 Armija Bosnia-Herzegovina and indeed the army of the Republika Srpska. I

4 think that's it.

5 Q. Can you describe for the Chamber, so they have some idea, the

6 approximate value or size of that HVO archive collection?

7 A. Yes, it consists now - and this is, we're told, the final count -

8 of over 10.000 items, each of which consists of either a binder,

9 essentially a lever-arch binder like those over there, or a box, which is

10 what's normally used to store loose materials in archives.

11 The archive has represented to us that the total linear measure of

12 the material is approximately 1 kilometre, which would mean that if you

13 were to line it up on a shelf, it would stretch for a kilometre.

14 Q. Have you had an opportunity, in the course of your work at the

15 archive in Zagreb, to actually see for yourself a large portion of this

16 collection?

17 A. Yes. I requested this, and I was taken to see the archive

18 itself. And it filled a large room approximately this size - I can't

19 really be exact - but a large room in sort of compressed format. So the

20 shelves were pushed up next to each other, and you had to physically move

21 them if you wanted to get at any particular item. So it was quite large.

22 Q. All right. I think I'm going to jump ahead a bit of my -- of what

23 I thought about this. Is this a public archive at this point? Is this

24 collection of documents a public collection in terms of other people can

25 come in off the street, so to speak, and look at these documents?

Page 4557

1 A. No. Access to this particular collection is regulated by the

2 Government of Croatia and has been granted, as far as I know, to staff of

3 the Office of the Prosecutor and persons working on behalf of various

4 Defence attorneys.

5 Q. In the course of your own personal work at the archive, have you

6 seen and observed people that you came to know or have information

7 represent or work with various Defence attorneys and Defence teams on

8 cases here in The Hague?

9 A. Yes, several different such persons.

10 Q. To your knowledge, sir, have representatives associated with the

11 Defence teams in this case had access to these documents in Zagreb?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And as far as you know, does the Defence have equal access to

14 these documents as the Office of the Prosecutor?

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

16 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, I don't believe there's a foundation

17 for that question. I think it calls for speculation, and I object to the

18 form of the question also.

19 JUDGE LIU: We are interested to know the answer of this

20 question.

21 You may answer the question, Witness.

22 A. Well, as a matter of fact, from what I have been able to observe

23 working in the archive, people working for the Defence enter and leave and

24 request materials and obtain copies, collect copies, in much the same way

25 that we do. I can't really say that it's precisely equal, since there may

Page 4558

1 be additional things that we would not have access to. But that really

2 would be largely speculating. But I can say that I have been able to

3 observe basically access equal in nature to our own.


5 Q. From what you can see -- I don't think there's any particular

6 reason to belabour this, but since the objection was made: From what you

7 can observe, do you see the Defence counsel, the representatives of

8 Defence teams are treated the same way, the documents are handled the same

9 way, as far as you can tell, as the access granted to the Prosecutor?

10 A. Yes, exactly.

11 Q. All right.

12 Now, briefly, will you tell us, just so the Chamber will have some

13 idea, but I want you to do this - unless there's other questions by the

14 Chamber or counsel - in a fairly broad way, how is it, then, that the

15 Office of the Prosecutor has reviewed or searched this collection of

16 documents, and how are those documents then processed in bringing them to

17 The Hague and, ultimately, producing documents in Court, which as many of

18 the documents, in fact, that are tendered -- have been tendered in this

19 case?

20 A. Well, the first step would be we would select a binder, an item,

21 and ask for it. Normally, we ask for it the night before, and it arrives

22 the next morning, although, in exceptional circumstances, we can obtain it

23 immediately. Then a staff member -- and I have done this myself many

24 times -- goes through that binder and makes a list, a record, of the

25 specific documents that we wish copies of. We mark those with a sort of

Page 4559

1 yellow Post-It note, and we also make a written list. We then return the

2 binder and the list to the staff and, after some period of time, receive

3 copies. The copies themselves generally have a small, round archival

4 marker in the corner. I understand this to be normal practice.

5 They are then handled at this point by our office in Zagreb. They

6 are indexed and summarised, briefly, on the computer. A record is made of

7 who had basically turned them in to the indexing service and when was that

8 was done and where they came from. And at that point, they are simply

9 further handled in the same manner that other documents are handled.

10 Q. All right. And for instance, does that include - I think there

11 has been prior testimony to this effect on other documents - but does that

12 include each document is given a unique identification number, for

13 instance, and then further processed here in The Hague?

14 A. There's a unique document number; and further, there's another

15 page number that's also unique to each page.

16 Q. Now, just before moving on, when the documents -- when the copies

17 come back from the Government of Croatia, is there any kind of sort of

18 quality control, if you will, to determine that the documents requested

19 are, in fact, the ones provided?

20 A. Generally, the copies are checked against the list that we had

21 made to ensure that we have actually obtained what we asked for. The list

22 contains several identifying features, such as the code number of the

23 document. Many of these, being military documents, have a sort of code or

24 a serial number, perhaps; the date; the originator, or author; and a short

25 description and number of pages which allow for identification.

Page 4560












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Page 4561

1 Q. All right. And before I show you a list of documents, can you

2 confirm, is it correct, then, that these documents essentially are

3 provided through -- excuse me, provided to the Prosecutor, or in some

4 cases, to Defence counsel, by the Government of Croatia as an official

5 transmission of information at our -- in the OTP's instance, at our

6 request, under the Tribunal Statute?

7 A. Yes, I think so. This is all regulated by negotiations, I

8 suppose, between the Prosecutor and the Government of Croatia and, I

9 suppose, ultimately, by a formal request for assistance, although each

10 specific request for a document would not require a new request for

11 assistance.

12 Q. Can you give the Chamber briefly some idea -- you said a few

13 minutes ago when you requested -- a staff member would request a binder or

14 a subset of documents for the purposes of review, how is it that you would

15 even know what to ask for? What tools did you have available to you?

16 A. At the very beginning, at the HIS, we simply asked for broad

17 categories. But once the collection moved to the archive, we were given

18 drafts of a catalogue that the staff was preparing as they prepared it.

19 And it would grow as they catalogued more and more items. I've brought

20 with me as a sort of visual aid the final version of this catalogue which

21 we obtained from the archive.

22 MR. SCOTT: We're not going to mark this, Mr. President, as an

23 exhibit but, as Mr. Prelec has said, simply as a visual aid. You can

24 perhaps lift that up so the Chamber can see what you're talking about.

25 Q. And what type of -- how would the documents typically be organised

Page 4562

1 in terms of, if there was, again, as you said earlier, a binder? What

2 sort of information would be on the binder, in your experience?

3 A. It varied. Sometimes there was what seemed to be an original

4 designation from the actual unit or office that had compiled the binder.

5 Q. For example?

6 A. For example, the Viteska Brigade of the Central Bosnian Operative

7 Zone, something like this. Then there would be, at this point, actually,

8 a series of different register numbers that would have been added by the

9 archives. They actually went through two different series, an interim and

10 now a permanent series.

11 Q. Let me also ask you, going back to this -- the archival stamp,

12 which the Chamber will see examples of, I think, in a few minutes, just so

13 there is no confusion about that, is it invariably the case that there is

14 always this archive stamp on all documents from the archive?

15 A. No. The first documents from the HIS never had that stamp. And

16 for various reasons, a small portion of the copies from the archive, the

17 state archive, also are missing a stamp, and sometimes it's extremely

18 faint, but the great majority of the documents do have the stamp.

19 Q. Is it fair to say that, as a general matter, the stamping practice

20 was instituted somewhere along the line after this effort started, but it

21 wasn't in place at the beginning?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. SCOTT: All right. Now, if I could have -- if there is a

24 binder of these documents, Mr. Usher, that could be put in front of --

25 it's the binder marked "Selected Zagreb Archive Documents," if that could

Page 4563

1 be placed in front of the witness, please.

2 Q. Now, in the front of that binder, I hope, if they've all been

3 prepared -- do you see a list or a table of documents starting with P111?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And does that set -- does that table or schedule go on for some

6 approximately 26 pages, ending on the last page with P826?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. SCOTT: All right. Mr. President, simply for purposes of the

9 record, we realise that, in and of itself, it's not evidence. Obviously,

10 it's a secondary document. But just so the record is very clear, we have

11 marked this or we will mark this as Exhibit 883, which is a number we

12 haven't used before. And that way, everyone will be exactly clear what

13 this document is, if that's agreeable, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Just for the record, would this be -- excuse me, 886

16 would just be the first 26 pages? Is that correct?

17 MR. SCOTT: Exhibit 883 is 26 pages of the schedule itself. It

18 has nothing to do with the underlying documents in the binder.

19 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

20 MR. SCOTT: No problem.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Prelec, the next question I'm going to ask you is a quite

22 broad one, but -- well, let me ask you this way: Have you had occasion in

23 preparing to testify over the past - I might say off and on, over the past

24 few weeks - to review the documents starting with P111, going through

25 P826, from page 1 to page 26, and can you verify or confirm to this

Page 4564

1 Chamber that all the documents listed on these pages came from the

2 Croatian state archive?

3 A. Yes, I can.

4 Q. And can you briefly tell the Chamber some of the information or

5 indicia that you have used or did use to make that determination?

6 A. Yes. I looked at all the documents themselves. And those that

7 bore an archival stamp, I took to be from the archive. And those that

8 either did not, or in some cases, the stamp was -- or what appeared to be

9 the stamp was too faint to read, I consulted our indexing system and

10 established that, according to that, they had in fact all been submitted

11 to the Office of the Prosecutor by the Croatian state archive.

12 MR. SCOTT: All right. Let me find, if I can -- if I can find a

13 good example. The bundle -- let me explain, Mr. President, that the

14 bundle -- the binder that the Court has and everyone -- well, and counsel

15 as well -- this is not, obviously, 26 is every document in this bundle.

16 This is going to be a sampling of the documents which I will ask in the

17 course of this afternoon and tomorrow some questions of the witness

18 about. These -- most -- well, all of these documents are spread

19 throughout the 17 binders. So we've simply collected a sampling of them

20 here, but these are part of, with a few exceptions which have been

21 supplemented and which have been provided in this binder to counsel, these

22 have been documents that were in the 17 binders at the beginning of

23 trial.

24 Q. So if I can ask, Mr. Prelec, if you can turn to - and others in

25 the courtroom may also wish to turn to - Exhibit 301.1, it will be several

Page 4565

1 pages down. Unfortunately, all the sets are not tabbed, but there should

2 be an exhibit number in the lower, right corner of the first page of each

3 exhibit. And if I can ask you to go down until you find 301.1, now, can

4 you look at the original B/C/S version of that document and can you

5 indicate there, for perhaps -- well, I won't take the time to put it on

6 the ELMO today since we only have a few minutes left, but can you indicate

7 on the original document if that document has the kind of archival stamp

8 that you've told us about this afternoon?

9 A. Yes. It's in the upper, right-hand corner, immediately above the

10 eight-digit number that is our own evidence registration number.

11 Q. And you speak and read Croatian; is that correct, Mr. Prelec?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, I don't know if again -- again, I may have picked

14 not a good example, but if you look at that - and I believe the stamp is

15 upside down on that particular document so you can turn it any way which

16 may assist you - but can you look at that document. Can you read

17 approximately what the stamp says.

18 A. Yes. It says -- well, in English, it would be -- or perhaps it's

19 better if I say it in B/C/S and allow the interpreters --

20 Q. All right. That would be fine.

21 A. [Interpretation] "Croatian state archives." [In English] Then in

22 the middle it says, "Zagreb."

23 Q. Staying on that same document as an example, right -- you just --

24 you just a moment ago said that right under that stamp there is an

25 eight-digit number, in this case 01515832. Is that an Office of the

Page 4566

1 Prosecutor identification number of the sort that we've talked about this

2 afternoon?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, if -- given the information in the

5 records available at the Office of the Prosecutor, if you were to take

6 that number and essentially investigate the source of that document, would

7 that take you back to it being produced from the Croatian state archive?

8 A. Yes, it would.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just let me look at my notes for a

10 moment to see where we are. All right.

11 Q. Mr. Prelec, what I'd like to do in the next few minutes, before we

12 actually turn to some examples or some of the documents in this black

13 binder, which we might not start, I think, until -- probably won't start

14 until tomorrow morning, but would you explain to the Chamber, please, in

15 your professional experience, and as someone who has worked with a number

16 of document collections, some of the things you consider in terms of such

17 factors as the authenticity or reliability of documents, and how you've

18 applied some of those tests, if you will, to this collection of

19 documents.

20 A. Well, it's sort of a complicated question, and I will begin to

21 answer it. If you want to cut me off and divert at some point ...

22 One of the more important questions I would ask would be the

23 source of the documents itself. And there are certain indicia or certain

24 tests or questions one could ask of the source itself. In this case, I

25 could go into that, if you wish.

Page 4567

1 The document itself, you would simply -- or I would, rather,

2 attempt to look into the type of information that it carries and see if it

3 fits with other information. So, simply looking at this page, there is

4 initially, second line from the top, what's in the B/C/S version, "Broj,"

5 there is a number. I have looked at numerous logbooks which contain

6 registers of such numbers with descriptions, such as, you know, sender,

7 addressee, time, date, and so on, this all in the archive. One could see

8 whether that was the case. Date and time.

9 One could compare the text of the document with other information

10 that corresponded to the same date and time. If one had - as in this

11 case, I do have - a very large quantity of documents, one could compare

12 the format with other documents coming from the same person, in this case

13 Colonel Siljeg, even sort of banal things such as typeface, the

14 transmission stamp at the bottom. Again, this particular one appears to

15 have been sent to the main staff of the HVO. There is an arrival time.

16 One could compare that with other, similar stamps.

17 So much for the document itself.

18 Q. If, given the size of this collection of documents -- or have you

19 seen a number of instances, for example, you can find, say, a document

20 going out from one author or source and a response, what appears to be a

21 response to that document coming back from the addressee?

22 A. Yes. This bears on the reliability of the entire collection as a

23 whole. On many occasions -- I worked there for months and saw probably

24 thousands, if not more, documents. On many occasions, I saw, for example,

25 an order from the Main Staff to an operational zone commander with a

Page 4568

1 certain number and subject matter. And then in the files of the

2 operational zone, an order from that commander to his subordinates in the

3 brigade saying on the basis of Main Staff order so and so, I hereby order

4 you, and then the operative part of the text. And in some cases, even

5 further down, from the brigade commander to his battalion, saying on the

6 basis of Main Staff order so and so, and operational zone command so and

7 so, I order you to do this. And other similar cases.

8 For example, a report going back from the subordinate to the

9 superior who had issued the order, saying you ordered me on this date with

10 this number to do this, and I now tell you I can't do that or I have done

11 that, or whatever.

12 One particularly, to me, persuasive case is a class of orders that

13 are sent to a large number of addressees. There are some of these where I

14 have seen five or six different copies in scattered parts of the archive,

15 all substantively identical, coming from the same person. For example, an

16 operation zone commander to his ten brigades.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I think we're a couple minutes early,

18 but I'm about to ask a series of questions that I don't think I could

19 finish in a couple of minutes. So if we could break, I would appreciate

20 it.

21 JUDGE LIU: Can I ask you a question?

22 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

23 JUDGE LIU: How long are you going to take, approximately, with

24 this witness?

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'll tell you exactly what my plans had

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Page 4570

1 been, and you can give me such guidance as you care to. With this

2 introduction that we have covered mostly today, almost all of it by way of

3 the background, how this collection of documents has been accessed and

4 reviewed, there's a couple of additional questions I want to ask this

5 witness. But we have almost covered all of that.

6 What I intended to do was go through a sampling of these

7 documents, much the same way that Mr. Stringer did with Mr. Van Hecke. We

8 certainly can't go through every document in that schedule. We would all

9 be here a long time. But to give the Chamber some idea, I have picked

10 some documents which we can just see how -- as many as 20 or 25 documents

11 which I might take the witness through to point out certain things to the

12 Chamber. That's on the so-called Zagreb Archive documents. Then there's

13 other two small collections, which I would just ask essentially this

14 witness to briefly confirm, again, the origins of those documents.

15 So I wouldn't want to stand here and tell the Chamber -- I think

16 it will take me some part of the morning, but I would think that with

17 cross-examination, there's no reason to think we shouldn't be able to

18 finish this witness by lunchtime tomorrow. I'm confident. Well, I think

19 we can.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

21 Mr. Meek, we didn't see Mr. Krsnik today. Out of curiosity, could

22 I know the reason for that?

23 MR. MEEK: Mr. Krsnik has gone to the ground, and he is in Bosnia

24 interviewing some witnesses, Your Honours.

25 JUDGE LIU: When do you expect him to be back?

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Page 4572

1 MR. MEEK: He will be back Tuesday morning for Court.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Mr. Par, how about Mr. Seric?

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honour, similar situation.

5 Mr. Seric used this one day to take some meeting in Zagreb that relate to

6 our Defence, and he will be back in the courtroom next week.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

8 We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 3.28 p.m., to be reconvened on

11 Friday, the 26th day of October, 2001,

12 at 9.30 a.m.