Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4986

1 Tuesday, 6 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Mladen Naletilic and Vinko Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it's not a witness, it's an

10 interpreter.

11 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. Are you going to

12 bring the witness?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, but I think that we should

14 discuss some issues without his presence for some minutes.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, the witness who is called to testify

17 today is an officer of the Spanish Armed Forces which were involved in

18 peacemaking and peacekeeping operations in Bosnia in 1993, and of course,

19 he will need some protective measures. We don't ask you for closed

20 session, but we ask you for facial distortion and pseudonym. And also, of

21 course, I will ask you to give us permission to hear some parts of the

22 case in private session.

23 Our motivation: First of all, he is an officer of the armed

24 forces still on active service. Spain is still involved in some

25 peacekeeping and humanitarian operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The

Page 4987

1 witness himself, apart from his mission in 1993 to Bosnia, was also

2 involved in the mission to Kosovo in 2000. So I think that the protective

3 measures can be justified.

4 JUDGE LIU: Any response from Defence counsel?

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I believe that my colleague Krsnik

6 agrees with this, Your Honours. We have no objections.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

8 You may bring your witness.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And also, Your Honour, I would ask you for the

10 permission for the legal assistance of the Minister of Defence of Spain,

11 Eva Maria Bru Peral, to be present at the judicial session just to monitor

12 the testimony of the witness without involvement in any actions here.

13 JUDGE LIU: That request has been granted by this Trial Chamber

14 yesterday.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for this witness will be JJ.

18 WITNESS: WITNESS JJ

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Would you please stand up --

21 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

22 JUDGE LIU: -- would you please make the solemn declaration in

23 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

24 THE WITNESS: [In English] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 4988

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Well, I was reminded that the interpreter should also do the

3 solemn declaration.

4 THE INTERPRETER: I solemnly declare that I will be performing my

5 duty with all due diligence and accuracy.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Please sit down.

7 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

8 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

9 Q. Witness, your request for protective measures has been granted by

10 the Trial Chamber. Now you have a pseudonym in the courtroom. You will

11 be called Witness JJ. Also, you have facial distortion. So now you will

12 be given a piece of paper with your full name, first name, written on it.

13 If everything is all right and the spelling is all right -- don't read it

14 aloud. If everything is all right, you may say, "Yes."

15 A. [No audible response]

16 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you have to say some words for the sake of

17 the record.

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I ask for your permission --

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours. We did not

22 see this sheet of paper with the name of the witness.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, we intend to examine some documents

24 today here in this session, and we have prepared a binder for the witness,

25 and we ask for your permission for this binder to be given to the witness

Page 4989

1 to speed up the whole thing during the procedure, not to look for the

2 documents in different binders.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Your request is granted.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Must be something wrong, because I hear the

5 Spanish translation in my earphones.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

7 MR. MEEK: Mr. President and Your Honours, good morning. I also

8 hear the Spanish translation in my earphones.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It disturbs, really disturbs.

10 JUDGE LIU: Maybe someone from the Registry could have it fixed.

11 THE REGISTRAR: It is because the microphone is on. The witness's

12 microphone is on. The witness's microphone would have to be turned off in

13 order not to hear the Spanish interpretation.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would ask you to give permission

16 to open our session with a closed -- with a private session, because now I

17 intend to ask the witness some questions relevant to his background and

18 his functions.

19 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Witness, what kind of situation existed in the area of your

24 responsibility at the moment you arrived there?

25 A. At that time, I was referring to the mid-April 1993. First steps

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Page 5000

1 were being taken to something that seemed to be inevitable, namely,

2 confrontation between the Croatian and Muslim communities. There were

3 some indication of an emergency arising, such as, for instance, tension

4 that was increasing between these two communities, isolated events

5 sometimes between armed persons, and specific tension in the atmosphere.

6 And it seemed to be increasing.

7 Q. Did you participate in any actions undertaken by the international

8 community intended to ease the tension in April 1993?

9 A. Yes. At that date, I was put under the command of General

10 Pellnas. I was assigned to work under Commander Pellnas in order to see

11 what could be done to relieve this tension which inevitably could lead to

12 confrontation between the two communities. Therefore, we had a number of

13 meetings with commanders of the different communities. A number of steps

14 were taken to see whether we could increase confidence and trust between

15 the armed forces of both parties.

16 Q. Sorry, sorry. What was General Pellnas's position?

17 A. He was the chief of the observers of the UN. And I said, in order

18 to have more trust between communities, we decided to set up mixed patrols

19 of policemen using our vehicles; somebody from the Croatian group,

20 somebody from the Muslim group, in our vehicles to carry out patrol

21 missions in all the area inside the city of Mostar. But it failed

22 totally. And trust between these two communities had disappeared.

23 I can give you an example of this. It reminded me of "Dante's

24 Inferno." We were walking in the Croatian area, and the Muslims that were

25 monitoring in the area were hidden in the vehicle. And when we were in

Page 5001

1 the Muslim area, it's the Croatian people that hid in the vehicle. This

2 gives you an idea of trust and confidence between these two communities.

3 Q. And what about General Pellnas's proposals just to set up

4 permanent presence of SpaBat in Mostar?

5 A. That was decided at the very end of these days in which

6 negotiations were carried out. Because finally, it was decided that the

7 only way in which we could keep a situation in which confrontation would

8 not take place would be to have a permanent presence of one of our units

9 in the city of Mostar.

10 Q. Just very briefly, what kind of questions were being discussed at

11 the meetings?

12 A. This happened a long time ago. Basically, as I said, we just

13 discussed ways and means in which we could increase a trust between the

14 two communities and relieve the tension.

15 Q. Did you have any contacts with the military from both sides? I

16 mean, HVO and ABiH.

17 A. Yes, we had contacts with people who said that they were military

18 leaders, these two groups.

19 Q. For example, who were the persons you were in contact with?

20 A. I think that basically it was Petkovic, General Petkovic. In the

21 Muslim area, I don't remember the name. This happened a long time ago.

22 And names, Balkan names are very difficult to recall, at least for

23 Spaniards.

24 Q. I also mean the military persons on the local level.

25 A. Yes. We meet with practically anybody that was wearing a uniform

Page 5002

1 in Mostar.

2 Q. And which side was represented by Petkovic? It is not in the

3 record.

4 A. HVO.

5 Q. Did you have contacts with Mr. Bosic?

6 A. Yes, very frequently. Not me, because this was not my rank, but I

7 know that higher officers did keep contact with him.

8 Q. I mean Slobodan Bosic, yes.

9 A. I don't remember his first name.

10 Q. Did you have any contacts with a person whose name was Andabak?

11 A. Yes, I do remember his name. His name was Ivan Andabak, and we

12 also had contacts with him. He was married to a Spanish woman, so we got

13 on with him. We would speak, not only about work, but also about many

14 other things as well.

15 Q. How did he introduce himself to you?

16 A. He told me, in quotes, that he was an intelligence officer on the

17 other side, counterpart.

18 Q. Did you get any idea which part he meant, which unit was

19 represented by him?

20 A. No. He introduced himself as a specialist in -- in foundation,

21 et cetera, et cetera. However, I never had access to the information

22 about his unit.

23 Q. What was your perception? Did he occupy any command position or

24 not?

25 A. Well, not at the highest rank but middle rank, yes.

Page 5003

1 Q. Did he wear a military uniform?

2 A. Yes, very often he did. But everybody was in uniform.

3 Q. Was it in an HVO uniform?

4 A. Well, at that time, I would have liked to get explanations about

5 the uniform of the HVO because people were wearing uniforms they

6 preferred.

7 Q. You just told the Trial Chamber that he was a sort of

8 counterpart. From which side counterpart, your counterpart?

9 A. From the HVO.

10 Q. Are you familiar with Ivica Tomic?

11 A. Yes, because we were the same age, more or less, so we got on

12 quite well. He was -- he said that he was chief of one of the brigades.

13 Q. Did you ever talk to Mr. Mladen Naletilic, or Tuta?

14 A. Sometimes I accompanied Commander Acuna, spoke to him sometimes,

15 but not very often. Commander Acuna is a person that had more contacts.

16 Q. What was his position in any military administration structure?

17 A. The information that we had access to was that, basically, he was

18 one of the key persons in -- as far as operations are concerned,

19 financially speaking. And sometimes even he helped in planning strategic

20 operations.

21 Q. What kind of person was he, in your understanding?

22 A. Well, this is what I said. He was one of the key persons in our

23 area in order to understand what HVO was.

24 Q. Do you figure it's a position? I'm asking you about his traits as

25 a person.

Page 5004

1 A. Well, he was a leader, a very important leader at that time in the

2 army. I didn't say he was an important leader, I said that at that time,

3 at that point in time, he was very important to be a leader in order to be

4 prestigious within HVO [as interpreted].

5 Q. Did you ever hear Tuta speaking about Muslims?

6 A. Yes, yes. Sure.

7 Q. What was his attitude toward Muslims?

8 A. Not good.

9 Q. Maybe you will explain a little bit. What allowed you to make

10 such kind of decisions, conclusions?

11 A. In view of the extreme tension between the two communities, in an

12 atmosphere within both parts of the community were killing one another, or

13 rather, every side practically felt a hatred towards the other side.

14 Q. Were you aware of the situation in the area of Jablanica,

15 particularly Sovici, Doljani in April 1993?

16 A. We -- from our detachment there, we received information every

17 day.

18 Q. Did you ever visit the area of Sovici and Doljani?

19 A. Maybe quite possibly, but I just don't know. I cannot confirm

20 it.

21 Q. What was happening in the area of Sovici and Doljani?

22 A. Basically, as far as I can remember, there was some kind of a

23 military operation conducted by the HVO to push the Muslims out of the

24 area of Jablanica.

25 Q. Did you receive information about the persons who were in command

Page 5005

1 of the military operation in that area? I mean the operation you mean

2 now.

3 A. Well, I believe, yes, that one of these documents will come up.

4 Q. Witness JJ, now I will direct you to Exhibit 325. It may be on

5 page 4 in Spanish version and page 5 in English version. Have you found

6 it?

7 No need to read out the information contained in this document.

8 The documents speak for themselves. I will just ask you some questions.

9 First of all, about the source of this information.

10 A. Well, as you can see here, we spoke about the source of our

11 information in an opaque, in a disguised manner. So what we say is that

12 it comes from HVO.

13 Q. So we have in this document that Mr. Tuta, Mr. Andabak, and

14 Brigadier Lasic were behind the operation, were in command of the

15 operation. Is that correct?

16 A. This is what our source told us.

17 Q. And also in this document, we see that the aim of the operation is

18 to oust the Muslims from the Doljani-Jablanica area. Can you confirm that

19 you have this information in your documents?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

21 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe that the

22 Prosecution correctly stated the objective of this witness and that is not

23 to read from the documents because the documents speak for themselves.

24 However, it appears that the Prosecutor himself now is reading from the

25 documents, then asking the witness to confirm what is said in the

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Page 5007

1 documents, and therefore I believe it is objectionable, and I do object.

2 He's doing indirectly what he should not do directly. Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Meek. I partially agree with your

4 objections, but I believe that the Prosecutor is entitled to lead us to

5 the particular parts of a document, to draw our attention to that

6 particular part. I agree with you in the sense that there's no need to

7 read the paragraph of this document, but we have to know where our

8 attention should be directed to.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: That's the only aim that I have.

10 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

12 Q. Also, now I will direct to -- no. I apologise. I apologise.

13 First I will ask one question.

14 Did you receive information about the situation with the

15 population of Sovici and Doljani at the time?

16 A. Well, it also must be one of these documents. It was in 1993. I

17 don't really keep it all in my head.

18 Q. Then we should revise, refresh your memory and to go to the

19 Exhibit 352. Page 5 in Spanish -- the English version. In Spanish

20 version, page 3.

21 A. Yes. This is a reference to it. It is an HVO source which tells

22 us that people from Doljani, Sovici, and Slatine are being sent on to

23 Jablanica. These are people who were about to be detained so that they

24 could not join the BH army.

25 Q. So I will call your attention to the source of the information.

Page 5008

1 It is HVO information?

2 A. That's right, yes, and it is shown in the document.

3 Q. Did you receive information about the destruction of Doljani and

4 Sovici?

5 A. Yes, we did receive information, which was fully reliable because

6 it came from our units who saw it with their own eyes.

7 Q. I will direct you to Exhibit number 357. Spanish version, page 3,

8 and English version is also page 3.

9 A. Yes. It is confirmed that the town of Doljani is -- half of it is

10 destroyed. And the unit who observed it was at a particular observation

11 point from which they could see that.

12 Q. Did you get -- did you get access to Sovici area in the very

13 beginning of this military conflict?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you finally get access there?

16 A. I believe there was a meeting held at Jablanica between the

17 members of the units and the United Nations, and I believe we went there

18 to see the outcome of.

19 Q. Yes. I will direct you to Exhibit number 363. English version,

20 page 4; Spanish, page 3.

21 A. Yes, indeed. This is where this meeting is mentioned, and it was

22 between Generals Halilovic and Pasalic, the general -- on the BH side, and

23 Petkovic and Lasic on behalf of the HVO. There were also various

24 representatives of the international community. And it also says that

25 Doljani was visited and it was completed destroyed. And it is also

Page 5009

1 established that Sovici will be visited, where some 60 men are detained in

2 the school building.

3 Q. Was your representative to take part in the meeting? Sorry. Did

4 your representative take part in the meeting?

5 A. The chief of the head of the group.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 In these documents you see, and in some other documents you

8 mentioned, joint commissions.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What do you know about the activities of joint commissions? What

11 was their aim and the outcome of the activities?

12 A. Well, it was to create -- to adopt these measures which would

13 build up the confidence and trust in the area, to -- also, to build these

14 confidence up so as to avoid any armed clashes between the sides. And

15 these joint commissions were in turn to grow into forums which would then

16 discuss and resolve problems.

17 Q. Did you participate in the sessions?

18 A. Some of them, yes.

19 Q. Did they fulfill their function to achieve peace between the

20 factions?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, let's pass on to the Mostar area. Did you visit Mostar

23 before the 9th of May?

24 A. Yes, I went there every day practically.

25 Q. Could you briefly characterize the situation there before the 9th

Page 5010

1 of May. 1993, of course.

2 A. It can be defined in one sentence: The tension was escalating

3 permanently.

4 Q. And what happened in Mostar on the 9th of May, 1993?

5 A. Well, an HVO military offensive started.

6 Q. At what time? How did you get notice of that?

7 A. I remember that we had some of our units there. Now I can't

8 remember, but it's all here.

9 Q. As far as you remember.

10 A. It was at dawn that day.

11 Q. Did you go to Mostar?

12 A. In the early hours of the morning, I was sent with [redacted]

13 [redacted] to carry out a special mission, that is, to evaluate -- to make

14 an assessment of the situation.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, name pronounced here should be

16 redacted.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it will be redacted.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

19 Q. Okay. You may go ahead.

20 THE INTERPRETER: The witness wishes to know, are we not allowed

21 to pronounce certain names within the courtroom?

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: If it is necessary, I will warn you beforehand.

23 A. Very good.

24 Q. Go ahead.

25 A. Well, from elevations above Mostar, we were assessing the

Page 5011

1 situation. And there we saw shelling with mortars, exchange of light

2 fire, that is, fire with light firearms. And near our positions, we could

3 also -- I remember that -- I think there were two buses which we spotted

4 there, and there were in them persons who evidently were military, because

5 they were making us -- who were being taken by the military, it seemed,

6 because they were raising their hands and trying to show something to us,

7 showing their arms to us, showing as if they had been handcuffed, that is,

8 detained. From that, we went to another position from which we saw that

9 the football pitch was full of people, and people were constantly being

10 brought there.

11 Q. How long did you stay in Mostar on that day?

12 A. Until noon.

13 Q. Now we should go to some documents. Exhibit Number 374. This is

14 INTREP, issued the 9th of May, 1993. English version, page 4; Spanish,

15 page 2.

16 A. Yes. This is the collection of the information that I was just

17 telling you. This is what I was doing.

18 Q. Were you the source of this information?

19 A. Myself.

20 Q. Do you consider this information as having the highest

21 credibility?

22 A. Indeed.

23 Q. Then Exhibit Number 383. This is INSUM 29 issued on the 11th of

24 May, 1993. English version, page 5. Now, for the first time in this

25 session, we have an INSUM before us. Before this we examined INTREP, so

Page 5012

1 now INSUM.

2 Could you show on this example just the main difference between

3 INSUM and INTREP. You told us theoretical part of this problem, and now

4 practically.

5 A. Well, INSUM is a document which covers a period longer than one

6 day. And it is the summary of all the information collected by that

7 time -- or within a particular period of time, not only in our area of

8 operations, but across Bosnia.

9 Q. I would call your attention just to paragraph 1 on page 6 in the

10 English version. Here I see a term "ethnic cleansing," about the film

11 which was made on the 9th of May in Mostar. Can you make any comments on

12 this allegation and the film? Was there any film made?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

14 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I apologise. If the

15 question is simply, "Was there any film made?" I have no objection.

16 JUDGE LIU: Are you going to concentrate on whether there's a film

17 made on that issue?

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I would like to ask the witness if there was

19 any film made.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Did you watch it?

24 A. I did. I did, yes. Yes, we saw it.

25 Q. And now about this term, "ethnic cleansing" --

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1 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. MEEK: I don't believe there's any question in front of the

4 witness. I don't believe also that there has been a foundation laid that

5 this witness prepared the INSUM report, nor that he is any expert in

6 characterisation of what may be shown on the tape. If it's here, we would

7 like to see it. If it's not, he is projecting a conclusion. And he is

8 not an expert, so there's no foundation for such a conclusion or such a

9 question.

10 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, you have to understand that the Prosecutor's

11 question is not finished. He is just halfway there. Even we do not know

12 what will follow up by his question.

13 Of course, this witness is not an expert in the terminology,

14 especially on the legal terminology. But we are told that this witness

15 was there, and he personally saw this film. Let me hear the response from

16 this witness about this film.

17 Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Prosecutor.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

19 Q. Witness JJ, since you were one of the persons who drafted the

20 document and you're responsible for the terms and words used in the

21 document, I think it justifiable to ask the question why you used this

22 term.

23 A. This is not a legal document. This is a military document. At

24 that moment, it was also classified. It was a confidential document at

25 that time. We aren't journalists. We aren't journalists.

Page 5015

1 Here, the term "ethnic cleansing" is not focusing on an attempt to

2 confirm that a crime has been committed, that a crime took place, but that

3 we saw the enforced movement of a population, that people were being

4 evicted from their residences, from their places, and they were being

5 forcibly rounded up and placed in different places round the town.

6 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: That's what I wanted to hear from the witness,

8 just understanding of "ethnic cleansing" by military person.

9 Q. Do you know how long did this attack in Mostar last?

10 A. The intensity perhaps dropped, but the level of operations was,

11 nevertheless, maintained, and it went on for a couple of months.

12 Q. Do you know what happened to people who were gathered at the

13 stadium area?

14 A. No, I don't.

15 Q. Did you receive any information about that?

16 A. About what -- specifically those who were in the stadium, I do not

17 remember. I do not know. You studied these documents. Perhaps you found

18 it somewhere.

19 Q. Did you receive any information about the Muslims being arrested

20 and placed to some detention facilities?

21 A. Oh, that, yes. That, yes. Yes. That kind of information, yes,

22 we did get, but I thought you meant what was the fate of those people who

23 were in the football stadium.

24 Q. Now I will address you to document P401. This is page 6 in

25 English version and page 4 in Spanish version.

Page 5016

1 A. It says that the Muslim population continued to tell us that the

2 HVO is discriminating against the Muslim population.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately, the interpreters do not have

4 these documents.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours. There was not even a

7 question in front of this witness. I'm reading line 19 and 20. The

8 Prosecutor, my learned friend, refers to a page. No question is asked of

9 this witness, and the witness starts reading the document.

10 I object. There wasn't a question in from of him. The document

11 will speak for itself if it's admitted. That's my objection. Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you have to put your question in

13 the form of a question.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My question was: Did you receive information

15 about Muslims being arrested? The witness asked me to show the document.

16 I showed the document to him, and now I think we should examine this

17 document.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

20 Q. What was the source of this information?

21 A. The Muslims in Mostar, the United Nations ...

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The sound has disappeared.

23 THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. One, two, three. Can you hear

24 that?

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

Page 5017

1 Q. Did you receive information about the Muslims detained in

2 Heliodrom detention facilities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now I will direct you to Exhibit 502. This is page 3 in both.

5 This document refers to the source of information. This is the second

6 line from the bottom, the third line from the bottom in English version.

7 A. The BH army sources say that some Muslims are detained at the

8 Heliodrom.

9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters still do not have copies of

10 these documents.

11 A. This is the information which comes from a BH, but the conclusion

12 of the analyst is interesting. In the -- in his commentary, he says that

13 the information is -- has not been confirmed but that it could be one of

14 the reasons for which UNPROFOR cannot gain access to some parts of Mostar,

15 that they are kept out of some areas of Mostar.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, now I'm about to proceed to the

17 second set of questions, but I see that our time is running away.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could resume at 11.30.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I was told that there was a new

23 interpreter, and she is supposed to make a solemn declaration before we

24 proceed.

25 JUDGE LIU: Have we done that already? Yes, we have done that

Page 5018

1 already.

2 Yes, you may proceed.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

4 Q. Witness JJ, just before the break, we were talking about BH

5 sources claiming that there were some Muslims detained in Heliodrom

6 prisons. Now I would like to change the subject a little bit and pass on

7 to the efforts made by the Spanish side to settle the problem in Mostar.

8 Did you include information about the meetings held at Spanish

9 headquarters in Medjugorje between the warring factions?

10 A. The documents are there.

11 Q. So I will direct you to Exhibit 4405, that is INTREP 176, 9th of

12 May, page 4, English version; page 5, Spanish version.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

14 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, just for the record, my screen shows

15 Exhibit 4405, and I think it should be --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Would you please clear it up.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: 405. 405.

18 Q. Have you found it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did this meeting really take place?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. If you follow the document, you will see that one of the subject

23 matters of the meeting was a visit of representatives of that meeting to

24 Heliodrom and about the number of prisoners that were established in that

25 detention facility. Then I will direct you to Exhibit 407, Spanish

Page 5019

1 version page 5. Have you found it?

2 A. 407, page 5?

3 Q. English version, page 5; Spanish version, page 3.

4 A. Got it.

5 Q. Is it correct that one of the items of the meeting was the release

6 of prisoners from Heliodrom?

7 A. Yes, that's what the document reads. And this document is based

8 on the UNPROFOR personnel that carried out the meeting.

9 Q. So it's your own sources. Is that correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. Also, I would like to draw your attention --

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's a problem with the channel of the

13 French, French channel, because we hear the Spanish interpretations.

14 You may proceed.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

16 Q. There is about the state of health of prisoners who were released

17 from Heliodrom. Is it also your own sources?

18 A. Yes, it is our sources.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness.

20 And what happened to the Muslim population who were not taken to

21 Heliodrom on the 9th of May? Did they have a possibility of crossing the

22 river and to pass to the east side of Mostar?

23 A. Well, freedom of movement between the two parts of the city is a

24 topic that was always discussed, and a system was set up with buses that

25 would cross to the other side and backwards. And we monitored this

Page 5020

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Page 5021

1 operation.

2 Q. Was the decision implemented?

3 A. Partially only.

4 Q. Please explain a little bit in detail. Which parts were

5 implemented, which parts were not implemented?

6 A. In theory, it was supposed to be total freedom of movement;

7 however, the Croatians had settled restrictions on the Muslims crossing

8 over to the Muslim neighbourhood.

9 Q. What kind of restrictions were imposed by the Croatian side?

10 A. Selection, a sort of initial selection of people. And if they

11 considered that there was a potential menace as far as security was

12 concerned for them, they won't let them, these people through to the

13 Muslim side. There was an official protest raised by UNPROFOR on this.

14 Q. Witness, I would like to direct you to Exhibit 423, page 4,

15 English version; page 3, Spanish version. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Page 1,

16 Spanish and English versions. These are the protests that you were

17 talking about now?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What do you know about the conditions of life in Mostar? I mean

20 both parts of Mostar in 1993, 9th of May?

21 A. Well, taking into account the fact that it was a city in a state

22 of war and that both communities were suffering because of the limitations

23 set by this war, the situation, in fact, was totally different between the

24 Croatian and the Muslim communities. The people that were really

25 suffering most were the people in the Muslim area that was sort of

Page 5022

1 encircled by the Croatian forces. They didn't have any running water,

2 they -- which meant that they had to go to the river to collect water, and

3 then, of course, they had diarrhea and other illnesses. And then there

4 was a sort of situation because they didn't have the necessary medicine.

5 Not only they didn't have any blood available, they didn't have penicillin

6 available.

7 Q. And what about the humanitarian convoys? Were they allowed into

8 Mostar at the time?

9 A. At the very early stages of the offensive, our unit would give

10 some support, but, actually, very little support.

11 Q. Now I will direct you to Exhibit 508, page 5 in both versions.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: For the rest, yes, it is in this blue binder.

13 Q. Do you have it?

14 A. This is INSUM number 34?

15 Q. Yes. Exactly.

16 A. I've got it.

17 Q. Yes. Page 5 of the Spanish version, the bottom paragraph. It was

18 the practice of ...

19 A. It is page 4.

20 Q. Is it correct that there were some attacks on SpaBat vehicles?

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 Q. And again about the lack of electricity and water?

23 A. Yes. Yes. There was mention made about lack of electricity, lack

24 of water, lack of food.

25 Q. What was the source of that information?

Page 5023

1 A. I might remind you that we had a unit in this area.

2 Q. Now I will direct you to Exhibit number 570. This is INTREP 271,

3 22 August 1993, page 6, English version; page 4, Spanish version.

4 Did you have the same source of information about the lack of

5 water and ...

6 A. Yes. If you read the comment that components of this section --

7 in other words, it is saying quite directly that it's our units that are

8 making this affirmation, this statement.

9 Q. Now let's proceed with Exhibit 461. This is INTREP 16 June 1993,

10 page 3 in both versions. The third paragraph from above, from the top.

11 Did you really receive information from your company that members

12 of HVO were marking Muslim homes on the west bank of the river?

13 A. Do you want me to read this?

14 Q. I would like you to confirm or not to confirm this information.

15 A. Yes. Yes, of course.

16 Q. You were talking about just your unit deployed in Mostar. Did you

17 have patrols in Mostar area?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you have them on both sides of Mostar?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What was their purpose in their respective territories?

22 A. Well, monitoring other situations as far as security was

23 concerned, support of the civilian population in humanitarian tasks, and

24 support to international bodies that were carrying out humanitarian

25 missions in their area.

Page 5024

1 Q. Do you remember what was happening on the confrontation line in

2 Mostar?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was happening there?

5 A. There was a line between both areas of the groups that were in

6 conflict. It was an area of friction where the greatest number of armed

7 events took place.

8 Q. Did you patrol in full view of all the fighting taking place on

9 the confrontation line?

10 A. Well, one of the missions of the patrol was to monitor the

11 situation in the line of confrontation.

12 Q. Did you receive information about the shelling of the east part of

13 Mostar, that is, the Muslim part of Mostar?

14 A. Yes, we had a section deployed in that area.

15 Q. Did you receive such kind of information?

16 A. Probably, yes.

17 Q. I will now direct you to Exhibit Number 38 -- sorry, 570. This is

18 the same INTREP already seen. I mean the paragraph about 30 or 40 persons

19 that were wounded every day in Mostar, the Muslim part of the town, as a

20 result of shelling. Page 5 -- page 4 of the Spanish version.

21 A. What was the question? Could you repeat, please.

22 Q. It was about people wounded on the east side of Mostar as a result

23 of the shelling.

24 A. Yes, I'm reading this part. This is information that was given by

25 the unit deployed in the area. One of the missions of this unit was to

Page 5025

1 visit the hospital of the Muslim area or neighbourhood.

2 Q. Which is the grade of credibility of this information, according

3 to criteria?

4 A. [No audible response]

5 Q. Did your patrol inform you about the sniping taking part in

6 Mostar?

7 A. Yes, of course. They received the impacts directly.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

9 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, my colleague asked a

10 question about the credibility of the information, and on page 35, line 1,

11 I don't see an answer, and I did not hear an answer from the interpreter.

12 I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. We also noted that. Would you please

14 repeat your question.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, sir.

16 Q. What is the grade of credibility of that information about people

17 wounded on a daily basis on the east side of Mostar?

18 A. One of the sections was there, and they used to visit the

19 hospital. And they had a direct vision of what was going on.

20 Q. The question was the grade of credibility.

21 A. High.

22 Q. Now, my question about the sniping in Mostar: Did you receive

23 some kind of information about the sniping in Mostar, and which were the

24 places where sniping took place?

25 A. In the line of confrontation, basically.

Page 5026

1 Q. Were there any casualties among the civilian population?

2 A. Yes. Not only civilians; we suffered as well.

3 Q. Please, could you dwell a little bit on this question.

4 A. It became so constant that the snipers were shooting at us, that

5 after a mission on the line of confrontation, the vehicles had 10, 15

6 impacts of bullets. And I am talking about white vehicles with "UN"

7 letters on them.

8 Q. Were there any casualties among the SpaBat personnel?

9 A. I was in an ambush, and the lieutenant who was with me died there

10 when we tried to cross the Tito bridge, and we were carrying medicine for

11 the Muslim hospital.

12 Q. Did you investigate that case?

13 A. Well, a police commission was set up with members of the Croatian

14 police, civilian police, of the UN, members of SpaBat. I was a member of

15 this commission because I was a direct witness of the event. And I

16 haven't read the final report; however, the conclusions were put forward

17 after a study that shooting came from the Croatian area.

18 Q. Now, I will direct you to Exhibit 523, page 4, English version;

19 page 3, Spanish version.

20 A. What's the number of the page?

21 Q. Special [sic] version, page 3. That's paragraph 3 of the Spanish

22 version, from the top.

23 Did you receive such kind of information?

24 A. You're talking about shooting, regular shooting in the Bulevar?

25 Is that it?

Page 5027

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Page 5028

1 Q. I am talking about sniper activity in the area of Salakovac and

2 the snipers located on the West Bank.

3 A. I don't -- I can't tell you the source of this information at

4 present.

5 Q. But is this information part of INSUM 35, dated the 12th of July

6 1993?

7 A. Yes, both. I explained already these are INSUMs, and they are

8 summaries of information provided in INTREPs. In INTREPs, one can find

9 more details about this. All the detailed information is INTREP. If you

10 have an INTREP referred to in this information, then perhaps you can find

11 the source there.

12 In this paragraph here in this INSUM, I cannot tell you.

13 Q. But can you confirm that INSUM information is based on the

14 information contained in INTREPs?

15 A. But as we say, the information of INTREP is something that is --

16 is the evaluation of its reliability.

17 Q. Could you give us a name of SpaBat soldier killed by the snipers?

18 A. It was an officer, Lieutenant Aguillar. Jesus Aguillar.

19 Q. Now we are passing on to another set of questions. Witness JJ,

20 did you observe the presence of HV troops in the area of your

21 responsibility?

22 A. I've already mentioned how difficult it was to identify military

23 units involved in the conflict because they were not regular armies, that

24 is, formed in a regular way, dressed in a regular way with standardised

25 gear. And I have to add to this that the principal thing you could tell

Page 5029

1 one unit from Croatia from a unit in Bosnia was perhaps just a small patch

2 on the -- on the arm, which was in both cases, at any rate, the red and

3 white flag. And it was very difficult to know exactly who was where, but

4 yes, one saw them there too.

5 Q. I will direct you to Exhibit number 538, page 4, 5 English

6 version; page 3, 4 Spanish version. I would like to know the source of

7 that information about the vehicles with Croatian army licence plates.

8 A. This information comes from us; that is, one of our men reported

9 that he had seen a vehicle with these plates.

10 Q. Let's move on to Exhibit 595.1. English version, page 3; Spanish

11 version, page 2. This is INTREP number 290, 9th of September, 1993.

12 That's about, again, two trucks licensed with HV plates which

13 crossed the border with some 50 armed men and returned empty. What was

14 the source of that information?

15 A. This was our unit.

16 Q. Now Exhibit number 612. There is no Spanish version of this

17 document. Maybe you can explain why we don't have it.

18 A. The English version was -- the English version was sent to

19 UNPROFOR headquarters and collateral units, because the Spanish version

20 was intended only for our headquarters.

21 Q. Could you explain just one phrase in the beginning? "According to

22 normally reliable sources ..."

23 A. Well, that's as the sentence goes.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... of credibility.

25 A. C.

Page 5030

1 Q. For the record, this information about offensive by the HVO,

2 supported by five HV brigades.

3 Witness JJ, did you carry out any other functions not connected

4 with your work as one of the draftees of reports in other parts of

5 Bosnia?

6 A. I did. I also, on various occasions, was in Metkovic, in the

7 centre of operations of the UNHCR convoys, and I also attended various

8 meetings at Kiseljak in Sarajevo, and I was also involved in the exchange

9 of intelligence with other brigades.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, my examination-in-chief is over.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Mr. Meek.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

14 Q. Good morning, Witness JJ.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. How are you?

17 A. Fine, thank you.

18 Q. First off, the Prosecutor just asked you about the Document P612.

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Basically, he asked you about the credibility of the source of the

21 information that came to you in that document about some HV or Croatian

22 army units. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in that -- did you prepare that report?

25 A. 612? No.

Page 5031

1 Q. Can you tell us --

2 A. You can see the stamp of the Madrid tactical group, and our unit

3 was the Canarias tactical group.

4 Q. That was the Canary Island group. Yes?

5 A. Canarias only.

6 Q. Does that translate to Canary Island?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. My understanding is that the Madrid group took over after you left

9 the country. Is that right?

10 A. That's right. But during the shift, the two could have, of

11 course, overlapped for a while.

12 Q. Was this a time that you overlapped for a while?

13 A. Indeed.

14 Q. In regards to the credibility or reliability of certain sources,

15 it's my understanding from your testimony that they varied from A to E.

16 Correct?

17 A. Yes, indeed.

18 Q. And that this report, 612, indicates "normally reliable BiH

19 sources," does it not?

20 A. Yes, yes, that's what it says.

21 MR. MEEK: Could the ELMO be lowered, please.

22 Q. Would it be a fair statement that when you gained information from

23 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that perhaps the source was not always

24 reliable?

25 A. For a source to be reliable, it does not go to say that it always

Page 5032

1 speaks the truth.

2 Q. And in your experience in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the time

3 period you were there, did you find that one side would give self-serving

4 information to your group?

5 A. Yes, indeed. To be able to evaluate the information properly, one

6 had to first verify the sources, to contrast them, to juxtapose them, and

7 that is very important in many instances. And that is why it says here

8 that the information comes to outside only.

9 Q. In your line of work, you always attempted the best you could to

10 evaluate these sources of information. Did you not?

11 A. Yes, indeed. Without that, I'd be in a military prison.

12 Q. You could move the microphone closer to you so you don't have

13 to... Is that better?

14 A. Perfect.

15 Q. Would it be a fair statement that you could not always verify the

16 information from collateral sources, though?

17 A. Nobody could do it at all times. Nobody could do it with every

18 information at all times, naturally.

19 Q. For example, just pick out Document 225.1. In your earlier

20 testimony, you indicated that on the front page, I believe you would put

21 the level of the credibility of the information from A to E -- and you do

22 speak English, correct? Some?

23 A. Some.

24 Q. Could you look at the English translation of that document P225.

25 A. What do you want me to do, to translate this?

Page 5033

1 Q. No, I want you to look at the English translation, please, of that

2 document, to the front page. Can you see and show me where the

3 credibility rating is placed on the English translation, if at all?

4 A. It is the fourth part on the front page, C2.

5 Q. Okay, C2. So that would be just kind of in the middle.

6 A. Yes, indeed.

7 Q. Thank you very much. Were you responsible for putting down the

8 credibility assessment, or was somebody else?

9 A. The procedure is much more complicated than that. Every piece of

10 information, every item of information is evaluated by the person who

11 obtained that item of information. The one who receives the information

12 also evaluates it, bearing in mind the background the source.

13 Once all the items of information included in an INTREP have been

14 evaluated, the credibility of INTREP becomes the lowest of all the

15 credibility levels of individual pieces in that information. So the sum

16 of the confidentiality is lower than -- of reliability is lower than

17 the -- that of individual pieces of information.

18 Q. Pardon me, Witness JJ, but I'm trying to look at the translation

19 as it comes through.

20 Is what you're telling me that the more sources that you have that

21 tell you a certain event happened, the more credibility it has?

22 A. No. Every source is evaluated. If I get three information from

23 three not particularly reliable sources, that does not mean that that

24 information is confirmed. It is not a matter of quantity but the quality

25 of the source, and that all these sources are juxtaposable, that they can

Page 5034

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Page 5035

1 be compared, one with the other.

2 Q. So for example, then, just to go back as an example and use P225

3 because it's in front of you, the sources were evaluated and the rating

4 came in just somewhat credible?

5 A. [In English] Normally reliable.

6 THE INTERPRETER: "Normally credible," said the witness in English.

7 MR. MEEK:

8 Q. Normally credible, then. Is this the type of information that

9 you, as a professional, like to receive, just normally credible, or do you

10 like to see A or B ratings, so to speak?

11 A. [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

12 Q. In all of these reports that you've looked at, do most of the

13 credibility ratings come in at the C level, if you know?

14 A. The process of the evaluation of information is a very long one,

15 time consuming one, to obtain something, to know whether a source is

16 reliable or not. One may take years of joint work. And you have to bear

17 in mind that we were less than a year in the area. So -- so with time, of

18 course, some sources became acceptable and some sources were simply

19 rejected.

20 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you would accept evidence or,

21 excuse me, accept information from every source; correct?

22 A. Any -- every piece of information is important.

23 Q. And as you just stated, sometimes it takes years to develop

24 knowledge of credibility of a source of information.

25 A. Yes.

Page 5036

1 Q. And am I correct when I believe from your testimony that these

2 INTREP reports were made daily?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. So then didn't somebody have to make a decision on the credibility

5 of that information in the moment, in the day, before that report was sent

6 out?

7 A. Well, it was round-the-clock work.

8 Q. You've testified that prior to your coming to Bosnia in 1993, you

9 were briefed on the situation. Is that a fact?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. And can you tell me, during this briefing, were you given the

12 names of some of the high-ranking military figures from both the HVO and

13 the ABiH armies?

14 A. Yes, during the training and -- of that force, there was a logical

15 sequence. One learns about the ground, then one learns about the forces

16 in conflict. And when you learn about the forces, about the belligerent

17 forces, you also receive what in military jargon is called ORBAT, which is

18 the battle order and the organisation of different forces.

19 Q. Do you have any independent recollection today of the, as you say

20 in military jargon, the ORBAT or the individuals who were high-ranking

21 military officials for both armies?

22 A. This is confidential information. It was classified for our

23 army.

24 Q. Well, Witness JJ, all these documents were all confidential, were

25 they not?

Page 5037

1 A. Yes, but I was not in -- but they cannot be unclassified without

2 any previous instruction.

3 Q. True. My only question was: Did you receive the names of

4 high-ranking military officials in the HVO and the ABiH armies?

5 A. The information was available, yes. At lecture, there is

6 something called "Need to Know"; that is, everyone receives whatever

7 information he needs to discharge his duties.

8 Q. Witness JJ, I appreciate your answer, and with that answer, I have

9 a need to know myself some of the names of the high-ranking military

10 officials on the HVO side that you were briefed on before you came.

11 A. I repeat once again that I do understand that you need that, but

12 you also had to know that to be sent to Bosnia, and you were not sent to

13 Bosnia in 1993.

14 Q. Are you, then, refusing to answer or do you not know --

15 A. Yes. Yes, sir. I'm not going to answer that question.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, what's the relevance of this question? You

17 are not fishing something here.

18 MR. MEEK: I'm not fishing, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: We don't believe that is quite relevant to this case,

20 first. Secondly, that you understand some questions this witness could

21 answer; sometimes he could not answer certain questions. So our advice is

22 that you may skip this question.

23 MR. MEEK: Your Honour -- Mr. President, Your Honours, I'm a

24 little bit confused because, in these multitude of reports that we have

25 from this organisation that Witness JJ worked with, we have many names.

Page 5038

1 And it is highly relevant for our Defence in this case to determine

2 whether or not my client was ever named as some sort of high-ranking

3 military official when this individual, this witness, was briefed. I

4 seriously do not understand what would be confidential about it now. I'm

5 not asking him who told him. Never would ask that -- I'm just asking -- I

6 can narrow it down, I guess, and ask the question only about my client.

7 But it is relevant, Your Honour.

8 And if I might, we do have a legal representative from the

9 government of the country which this witness comes, and if we could take a

10 five-minute pause and let him speak with the representative, that might be

11 appropriate. And the witness seems to indicate that might be

12 appropriate.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I must remind my learned friend that

15 the information provided to us by the Spanish side is protected under

16 Rule 70 of the Rules of -- of the Rules that we have in the Tribunal. So

17 Mr. Meek has all the documents at his disposal. If he wants to direct the

18 witness to some specific document, he can do that without asking such

19 general questions as he tries to do it now.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek. We also believe that your question is

21 too general. You could specifically or directly ask whether your client's

22 name is mentioned. It all depends on whether the witness would like to

23 answer this question or not. But you could be more specific in your

24 phrasing of questions.

25 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 5039

1 Q. Might I ask the witness, JJ, would you feel more comfortable in

2 speaking with your legal representative for a moment or not?

3 A. Yes. Yes, I would like to talk to my legal representative. But I

4 want to say that I wanted to refer to the documents that were

5 unclassified -- that have been disclosed by Spain. And there's quite a

6 number of them.

7 MR. MEEK: May the witness have a moment to speak with his legal

8 representative or not? Should we move on?

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, you should ask your question, first, to see

10 whether it could be solved, your problem.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It was not the witness's initiative to consult

14 with his legal representative. I don't know why Mr. Meek tries just to

15 compel him to do so.

16 JUDGE LIU: Let me hear the answer first.

17 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, Mr. President, I certainly -- I think I

18 have been taken out of context. I'm not trying to force this witness to

19 speak with the legal representative whatsoever. However, when the debate

20 or issue came up and arose a moment ago, it appeared that the witness

21 might want to speak with his legal representative, who is here in the

22 courtroom, because he shook his head in the affirmative. I merely asked

23 him if he would like to. I'm not forcing him to do anything. I'm sorry

24 I'm taken that way. I didn't mean it that way.

25 JUDGE LIU: Ask your question first.

Page 5040

1 MR. MEEK:

2 Q. Witness JJ, if you can recall, prior to your coming to the country

3 of Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, during your briefing about chief military

4 operatives or military commanders of the HVO army, did Mr. Mladen

5 Naletilic's name come up while you were still in your country?

6 A. I'm saying that we were briefed about the organisation of the

7 armed forces in contact. This is all I'm going to tell you.

8 Q. So I take it my client's name never came up.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I don't think Mr. Meek is authorised to make

11 conclusions, instead of the witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: This is Mr. Meek's conclusion. We could make our

13 judgment by ourselves.

14 Yes, Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I do apologise for

16 taking the floor, but I think this is a procedural issue. And as Defence

17 counsel for Vinko Martinovic, if I may, I would say that, according to the

18 jurisdiction I come from, when a witness is relying on a military secret,

19 the situation has to be clarified and then the examination can continue.

20 Whether confidentiality can be removed or not, we have to see, and then

21 the procedure continues.

22 If, after consultation with his legal advisor, he is allowed to

23 tell us and to answer this question, then we can go on. I think it is a

24 very important procedural question that we may come across in the future

25 as well, even though this is not the time for my cross-examination, nor is

Page 5041

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Page 5042

1 it my client that is involved.

2 JUDGE LIU: First, we believe that any consultations between the

3 witness and his legal counsel should come from the witness's own

4 initiative. If the witness believes there's a need to consult his legal

5 advisor, legal counsel, he is free to do that.

6 Secondly, we believe that the communications between this witness

7 and his legal counsel should be highly confidential, which means nobody

8 should be present.

9 Thirdly, we have to hear both parties, including the witness,

10 about this matter. We understand the Defence counsel made a motion for

11 the consultation be conducted between the witness and his legal counsel,

12 and we also heard the initial response from this witness. But we just

13 want to confirm that information.

14 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I think that our counterparts

16 received all SpaBat documents long ago, and they know pretty well what

17 they are about. And now -- now, I must refer to Rule 70 again, 70(C).

18 Now, it appears that Mr. Meek seeks some additional evidence, additional

19 documents apart from those at their disposal. And if you read closely,

20 Rule 70(C), yes, and (D), the situation seems to be quite clear.

21 And besides that, the legal advisor is not a person who is

22 authorised to give permission to the witness to disclose any additional

23 information because it was provided to us by the government of Spain.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, a fundamental right of

Page 5043

1 cross-examination is to be able to ask questions about the issues that

2 arose during direct examination. The Prosecutor has asked this witness

3 was he briefed before he came to Bosnia. He spoke about that briefing.

4 My only question was did my client's name come up. If he remembers. It's

5 been a long time ago. He may not remember. Whether his name came up or

6 not, I cannot see its being confidential. I don't understand.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise again for

9 taking the floor, but I do think that this is an important procedural

10 issue. We -- we haven't heard whether this witness has been relieved of

11 maintaining confidentiality. If he has been relieved, he cannot give this

12 kind of an answer. If he hasn't been relieved of maintaining that

13 confidentiality, then further procedure is required.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE LIU: Witness, here we have a question put to you. Are you

16 going to consult with your legal advisor on this issue? Because the

17 Defence counsel puts a question that is about your briefing before you go

18 to the Mostar area.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thirty seconds to speak to my legal

20 advisor.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. If so, we will have a recess for five minutes,

22 and Madam Registrar will make sure that all the protective measures will

23 be guaranteed.

24 --- Break taken at 12.40 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

Page 5044

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Witness, did you discuss this matter with your

2 legal counsel?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE LIU: Do you understand the meaning of the Rule 70(D)?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE LIU: So you may answer the question put forward by the

7 Defence counsel.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I only have to say the

9 following: All questions having to do with instruction given to Spanish

10 military units is confidential. To date, Spain has not unclassified this

11 information. Therefore, I am not going to answer about the content of the

12 units and all these briefings given to their armed forces.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Meek.

14 MR. MEEK: Yes. Mr. President, Your Honours, I think we have a

15 situation similar or directly on point that arose in the Prosecutor versus

16 Blaskic case, and that is where an individual invoked national security.

17 I believe this witness is doing the same. In that case -- the decision

18 was rendered 18 July 1997. That case indicates that the practice of the

19 Trial Chamber should be to have a closed session with this witness and his

20 legal advisor, since he has invoked national security, under Article 29 of

21 the Statute. And the Blaskic case, the July 18, 1997 decision, I think

22 that's the only appropriate thing we can do.

23 I'm asking that that occur before we complete any more examination

24 of this witness.

25 JUDGE LIU: Could I know the response from the Prosecutor,

Page 5045

1 please.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I can only repeat that the witness is relieved of

3 confidentiality to the extent of the documents already disclosed to the

4 Defence. And I think that the Blaskic decision deals with a different

5 situation.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 This Trial Chamber held that the Blaskic decision does not apply

8 in this situation. Mr. Meek, your request is rejected. Would you please

9 continue with your cross-examination.

10 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honours, I will.

11 Q. Witness JJ, when you arrived in Mostar, what was the date, to the

12 best of your recollection?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Was it in the month of April or was it in March?

15 A. Mid-April.

16 Q. Can you tell me, please, once you had arrived and began your

17 duties in the Mostar area, who was the chief of the HVO then?

18 A. Well, I had just arrived, and I had to adjust to the situation.

19 So on the very first day, it was rather difficult to know who the chief

20 was. I worked firstly on matters that were very less important, because

21 the matters of the chiefs were matters that had to do with commanders of

22 our forces.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness JJ. I think I probably will rephrase my

24 question after the lunch break.

25 MR. MEEK: Is it an appropriate time, Your Honours, to take

Page 5046

1 lunch?

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 5047

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

3 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. I was just having a brief

4 conversation with Madam Registrar, and I would like to hand her a document

5 which must be due today, and I've had a little mix-up, but it's fine.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. According to the -- our

7 document, the Registry's document, all this document, if they want it to

8 be filed, they have to be brought down to the OLAD, Office of Legal Aid

9 and Defence counsel matters.

10 MR. MEEK: May it please Your Honour, this document is due today.

11 I have made calls to Laurent in the Registrar's office -- or OLAD - excuse

12 me - and I keep getting his answering machine, and I leave messages to

13 please come to Defence counsel room. This document, Your Honours gave me

14 five days from your ruling about the search warrant issues. Today is the

15 fifth day. It is prepared, and I didn't know what else to do other than

16 to turn it into the registrar this morning, and it was a different lady.

17 And this nice lady has told me now to -- I'm in your hands on this issue.

18 So I can take it back and hopefully find somebody between 4.00 and 5.00,

19 maybe Laurent. Whatever you tell me to do, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that you have found an expeditious way

21 to submit your document, but those documents should go through the proper

22 procedures. So long as we receive it tomorrow morning, we regard that you

23 filed it today.

24 MR. MEEK: Thank you. I appreciate that, Your Honour. And I

25 apologise, Your Honour. I tried to do it through the proper channels, and

Page 5048

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Page 5049

1 I did not want to be late.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed with your

3 cross-examination.

4 MR. MEEK:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Witness JJ. How are you? Did you have a nice

6 lunch?

7 A. Well, not as good as Spanish lunches are, but it was good enough.

8 Thank you. I'm fine.

9 Q. Thank you. I guess what I meant to ask you right before lunch was

10 not who was the main commander of the HVO on the day you arrived, but you

11 were there from mid-April to, what, the end of September of 1993?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, then, who was the main commander

14 for the HVO during that time period?

15 A. I need to remember that, because questions that you're asking me,

16 you're asking me all about things that happened nine years ago. You're

17 asking me about a period which covered six months of my life, from the

18 moment that I arrive in Bosnia -- Bosnia. I think that the chief persons,

19 the commander of the HVO, was Brigadier Lasic. Then there was Petkovic.

20 Q. By the way -- and I appreciate your answer that it was many years

21 ago, and you were a young man then, I take it. How old were you then?

22 A. Twenty-four.

23 Q. Was this your first assignment abroad?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. MEEK: I have asked Madam Registrar to give me a temporary

Page 5050

1 number on a document I have handed her in English. It's nine copies, and

2 I would ask the usher to show Witness JJ that document to refresh his

3 recollection. While the usher's doing that, I will ask a few questions,

4 if it's appropriate.

5 Q. JJ, you indicated that your headquarters were in Medjugorje;

6 correct?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. At the headquarters, you kept the -- a list, your battalion did, a

9 list of Croat civilians, HVO, and also Muslim civilians, Muslim military,

10 and Croat military figures; did you not?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. You have in front of you a document which I do not know the number

13 of yet, but I'm asking you to please thumb through that and look at it

14 while I get a number.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could interpreters have a copy, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be D1/32.

17 MR. MEEK:

18 Q. While the usher is giving the interpreter the documents, I would

19 explain to you, Witness JJ, that this document now marked D1/32 was

20 provided to Defence counsel by the Office of the Prosecutor through a

21 statement by a -- by an officer in your brigade, which I won't mention in

22 open session right now.

23 I believe the interpreters have the document. So have you looked

24 at the document D1/32?

25 A. -- seen it before.

Page 5051

1 Q. Have you seen it before?

2 A. Not in English, but in Spanish, I think that it could have been

3 drawn up by us. But I'm not sure.

4 Q. And you were still in the country of Bosnia-Herzegovina on

5 11 September 1993. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And your battalion kept a list such as D1/32 of Croat civilians,

8 Croat military, Muslim civilians, Muslim military. Correct?

9 A. Could be. Could be. Could be. Could be that we had something

10 similar, or perhaps it could be this document. But translated from

11 Spanish, I don't know.

12 Q. And Witness JJ, I know that you've indicated you were used

13 sometimes as a translator for non-English speaking people in the area --

14 in Mostar. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So you can read this document in English, can you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So just a moment ago, you, I think, indicated that your knowledge

19 or recollection is Mr. Praljak was the head of the HVO. Is that correct?

20 A. No. I mentioned Petkovic.

21 Q. And do you see him on this document? Be the third page of the

22 document, but on the lower right-hand corner, where you see page 6-6.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. That shows Petkovic as being the general of the HVO. Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5052

1 Q. It also shows, underneath him, Slobodan Praljak as brigadier

2 general. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Underneath that is Zarko Tole, brigadier?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. If you just look down yourself, do these names all ring a bell

7 with you, and then to the right, as to who they might have been? For

8 example --

9 A. I repeat that Balkan names, quite unintelligible for Spaniards.

10 And you keep asking me about the year 1993. If you ask me now about a

11 player in the Royal Madrid soccer team, that I could remember and tell

12 you. But -- if you had photographs here. But like this, you put before

13 me some names like this. The chief ones, yes; Petkovic does ring a bell.

14 Ivan Andabak, Bosic; but hundred percent, I simply don't remember them.

15 And at that time, I suppose I would have known all of them.

16 Q. And for example, to move on to page -- lower on page what shows

17 69, you have on the top, under Muslim Military, you have Halilovic.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember that name from your time?

20 A. I spent three days with him.

21 Q. By the way, Witness JJ, these names are very hard for me also, so

22 don't feel alone.

23 The purpose, though, of your battalion making a list like this,

24 can you tell the Trial Chamber what was the purpose?

25 A. Yes. This is just a directory. It is very important to have when

Page 5053

1 one has to establish contact with somebody from the authorities or

2 somebody in authority, then, of one of the factions. As you can see,

3 Slobodan Bosic, then you have his secretary's number, the secretariat, his

4 mobile, and all the other information necessary.

5 Q. Thank you very much. And the people named on this list would have

6 been the higher-ranking military and civilian people in the area;

7 correct?

8 A. No. It could be people at a lower ranking, people who

9 nevertheless could be of some use to us for some type of contact.

10 Q. But nevertheless, some person who had some authority in the area

11 of Mostar that you would need to make contact with would probably be on

12 this list, whether they were high or low?

13 A. The important -- to be important in the area was the -- was the

14 necessary condition but not the only, not the indispensable condition to

15 find one's name on this list. What I'm trying to say, there could be

16 people with tremendous power in the area yet who perhaps do not figure on

17 these lists.

18 Q. You've looked at the list. Mr. Mladen Naletilic, his name is

19 nowhere to be found on this list, is it?

20 A. I think it is.

21 Q. While you're looking, do you know what city Mr. Mladen Naletilic

22 was from?

23 A. No, as a matter of fact, I don't. I didn't, and I don't. I don't

24 know.

25 Q. There's been much evidence in this Trial Chamber, since this trial

Page 5054

1 started on September 10th, that Mr. Mladen Naletilic was from the town of

2 Siroki Brijeg. Does that ring any bells with you, sir?

3 A. You are taking me into an area which I don't understand. I do not

4 recall 99 per cent of the things from that time. I merely refer to the

5 documents that I have before me, and this, yes, indeed this I can

6 explain. I can explain how this is done, what are the sources, but those

7 kind of questions, I can't answer them.

8 Q. Thank you. Was your recollection of the events that you lived

9 through back in 1993 fresher in your memory on November 6th of 2000 when

10 you gave your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor at The Hague?

11 A. My statement is a general statement which does not go into detail,

12 and especially concerning persons or places.

13 Q. Do you not recall talking, in your statement that you gave, about

14 a man named Tuta?

15 A. No. I merely said that I accompanied my superior, my -- to some

16 meetings with him, and I gave a sort of a general description.

17 Q. And in your general description that you gave to the Office of the

18 Prosecutor in November of 2000, do you recall telling them that you could

19 not put Tuta in an HVO military hierarchy, nor did he belong to HVO at

20 all?

21 A. Indeed.

22 Q. Do you further recall, Witness JJ, that you told the OTP at that

23 time that you think he was more civilian than a soldier?

24 A. I am referring to my -- I'm referring you to my statement.

25 Q. And I'm trying to refresh your recollection is all.

Page 5055

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Page 5056

1 A. Very kind of you.

2 Q. Do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor, in November of

3 2000 --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Some time ago there was a ruling by the Trial

8 Chamber that all witness statements should be shown to the witness if the

9 party who is interviewing a witness -- examining a witness refers to

10 them.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: Thank you for reminding me. I will do it right now. I

13 apologise. There's nine copies; one for the witness.

14 Q. Witness JJ, while these are being distributed, you might go

15 straight to page 6 of the English translation. And while you're looking

16 at that, I might direct your attention to the bottom 25 per cent of the

17 page. Yes.

18 A. Yes, I've read it.

19 Q. Is it true that you said that you thought that Tuta was more

20 civilian than soldier?

21 A. Yes. Yes.

22 Q. And that you also stated that he was a very charismatic and

23 prestigious person?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You also told the OTP that Tuta and Ivan Andabak were well-known

Page 5057

1 people, and everybody talked about them and how they thought; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you know from your personal experience and being an

4 intelligence officer in Bosnia in 1993 that Ivan Andabak and Tuta, or

5 Mr. Naletilic, had fought against the Serbs in 1992?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And they had fought alongside the Muslims in that battle against

8 Serb aggression?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Is this, to your belief and knowledge, where the knowledge that

11 everybody talked about how they fought, is this where it came from, the

12 battles with the Serbs, or do you know?

13 A. I have no information about that.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 I would ask you, Witness JJ, if you could please look at

16 Exhibit P405. Page 4 in the English, and I don't...

17 Under Mostar, you discuss -- it was discussed in direct testimony

18 about a meeting held in Medjugorje, I believe. Is that correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. And if I recall your direct testimony, you stated that there

21 was -- there was present at that meeting "the presence of major political

22 and military figures of authority in the area." Do you recall that

23 testimony?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber, who were these people who had major

Page 5058

1 political and military authority in the area that were at this meeting in

2 Medjugorje on the 9th of May, 1993? 19th of May, I'm sorry.

3 A. There should be a reference in the document. But it doesn't

4 really important that the presidents of Croatia and Bosnia [as

5 interpreted]. That is the presence that counts.

6 Q. Yes, it is. And I'm asking you, can you recall the names of these

7 high-ranking important figures in the military and political circles in

8 the area that were there?

9 A. I believe there was Franjo Tudjman, and there would have been

10 Izetbegovic. Then General Petkovic, I believe I saw him there, too.

11 Q. This was not an occasion that you saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic, was

12 it?

13 A. I cannot really say, but I don't think he was there.

14 Q. In reading your testimony from this morning, you participated in

15 more than just this meeting on the 19th of May, did you not?

16 A. No, I did not participate in the meetings. I was there to -- as a

17 support, that is, bringing together, meeting those leaders, telling them

18 where to go, directing them to the room.

19 Q. I apologise, Witness JJ. I didn't mean it in that fashion. You

20 were present at the meetings, doing what you just testified to, not

21 participating.

22 A. That's right. Yes, I was present. I was present at the

23 headquarters, at the entrance into the conference hall if they needed

24 something.

25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately how many other of

Page 5059

1 these meetings, this type of meetings, were you present when the leaders

2 from the HVO and the ABiH and people from your battalion tried to get

3 things settled down?

4 A. That was a very special meeting because, naturally, meetings were

5 between local leaders. The problem that one had at the HVO level, that

6 is, the main staff, was in our area. But Halilovic was never in our

7 area. And this meeting was a very special one. It was a very high-level

8 meeting. Apart from that, there were other meetings when we usually

9 focused on our area of responsibility, on Mostar.

10 Q. For example -- now that you mentioned Mostar, you mentioned a

11 meeting that you were present at which concerned General Pellnas. Do you

12 remember that meeting?

13 A. I was there.

14 Q. And was also Mr. Petkovic there?

15 A. I think I recognised him on a photograph.

16 Q. In all of the meetings that you attended by your presence, my

17 client, Tuta, was never involved in any of those meetings, was he, Witness

18 JJ?

19 A. No, that is true. He was not at any one of them.

20 Q. And just for the record, the statement that you gave on the 6th

21 day of November, 2000 to this Tribunal, which you have in front of you,

22 you've read that statement and signed it, did you not?

23 A. I did.

24 Q. And the document I show you is a true and correct copy of your

25 original statement.

Page 5060

1 A. Very well.

2 Q. In your direct testimony, you testified that you spoke sometimes

3 or on several occasions with Tuta. Was that your testimony?

4 A. The testimony says that I was -- that he was present as a

5 leader -- that I was present with my superior at some meetings. But those

6 clearly were not official meetings. They were not formal meetings. Those

7 were meetings when you sit down and you can talk, but I wasn't the one who

8 was leading those conversations, that was conducting those conversations.

9 Q. I completely understood, Witness JJ. I want to take you back to

10 this individual named Ivan Andabak.

11 A. Very good.

12 Q. He was married to a Spanish woman; correct?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Do you recall going to his home for a birthday party?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you ever been to Mr. Ivan Andabak's home?

17 A. I don't think so.

18 Q. And did you -- about how many times was it that you even met

19 Tuta?

20 A. A couple of times. He wasn't my responsibility.

21 Q. Do you speak Croatian?

22 A. None of it.

23 Q. Do you speak German?

24 A. A little bit.

25 Q. How did you converse with Mr. Naletilic? Which language did you

Page 5061

1 use?

2 A. There were interpreters.

3 Q. And can you tell me - and I know it's hard because it's been many

4 years - approximately how long did these couple of meetings even last?

5 A. You're asking me things that to me -- Mr. Tuta wasn't my

6 responsibility, and therefore, for me, it was of no relevance. It is an

7 aspect which is not relevant, and therefore, I do not remember about it.

8 Q. Thank you for your honest answer. What you're saying is that

9 during the period of time that you were in the Mostar area, that Tuta was

10 basically an irrelevant person and you didn't take any notice of him.

11 Isn't that what you just said?

12 A. I've told you already that we had some compartmentation of our

13 work. He was not my responsibility.

14 Q. And is it true that you never had access to this Ivan Andabak's

15 unit?

16 A. Not at all.

17 Q. You indicated also that people in Mostar and in the Southern

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina area, in the time period that you were there, they wore

19 all kinds of uniforms. Is this a fact?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Would this be a fact for both the ABiH army and the HVO?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Would it be hard to determine a soldier being in the ABiH army or

24 HVO army because they wore the same type, colour uniform?

25 A. Well, it was difficult to tell them apart. Even they found it

Page 5062

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Page 5063

1 difficult. It was really chaos as regards military uniforms. There were

2 no standardised military uniforms at all.

3 Q. You also testified that in Mostar during the time period that you

4 were there, that there was extreme tension between these two communities

5 because they were both killing each other all the time. True?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that there was hatred on both sides. Is that true?

8 A. Indeed.

9 Q. When you were speaking about Doljani, Sovici, Jablanica, you

10 indicated that you can't remember whether you ever went to these

11 locations.

12 A. I think you were not really listening to what I stated this

13 morning. I told you that the information on these villages we got from

14 our people in Slavonika [phoen].

15 Q. My question to you is: Did you physically go to Sovici?

16 A. Yes, but not at the time when this operation mentioned earlier

17 took place.

18 Q. When did you go to Sovici? What month, to the best of your

19 recollection?

20 A. It's impossible for me to tell you this now.

21 Q. How about Jablanica? Did you travel to Jablanica?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Approximately how many times, JJ?

24 A. Ten times.

25 Q. Did you observe any of what you termed earlier in your testimony

Page 5064

1 ethnic cleansing of Croats in Jablanica?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You were often in East Mostar, I take it; correct?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. Did you go to the elementary school in East Mostar where the Croat

6 prisoners were being held?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Were you not allowed to go there or chose not to?

9 A. Are you doubting on the fact that I'm a neutral person?

10 Q. No. I'm just asking you --

11 A. I don't advise you to go along those lines any more.

12 Q. Well, my question to you is: Did you go to the elementary school

13 in East Mostar?

14 A. How can I put it? I don't even remember a building that could be

15 the elementary school in --

16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Witness, please settle down. If you don't

17 remember, please tell me you don't remember and I'll go on.

18 A. No. But I don't like this sort of question with another question

19 behind it.

20 Q. Nobody likes to be on the witness stand. Okay. You have a

21 multitude of SpaBat documents in front of you; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In your estimates, Witness JJ, are these the entire documents

24 generated by SpaBat during the time period that you were in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Page 5065

1 A. No.

2 Q. Can you give me an estimate, if you can, as to how many other

3 documents that there might be available that were generated by SpaBat

4 during the time period you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I can only make a sort of an evaluation, sort of rough evaluation

6 of my G-2.

7 Q. That's all I'm asking.

8 A. Well, a INTREP per day, one INSUM every 15 days, and documents

9 that were drafted ad hoc, on an ad hoc basis.

10 Q. Could you look at Document 537, please.

11 A. I haven't got it.

12 Q. You've got it?

13 A. I haven't got it.

14 Q. You don't have 537? It's in this blue binder.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, what is the number of that document?

16 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, P537.

17 JUDGE LIU: Is it 357?

18 MR. MEEK: It's 537, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE LIU: In this binder?

20 MR. MEEK: In an earlier binder delivered to us and the Trial

21 Chamber from Mr. Prelec of the OTP. He testified about certain UNPROFOR

22 documents and additional SpaBat documents.

23 A. Yes, I've got it.

24 Q. Is that a document generated through your --

25 A. No, it wasn't drafted by us, because it says SITREP.

Page 5066

1 Q. Well, could you look at it anyway.

2 A. Yes, but I won't make any comments on a document that was not

3 under our responsibility. If you understood what I said this morning, the

4 SITREP documents were done by another section, different from ours. I had

5 nothing to do with them, and I don't know what they could have included in

6 their documents they drafted.

7 Q. Let me ask you this, Witness JJ: Did you have something to do

8 with every document that's in the file in front of you? Yes, that one.

9 A. But nothing to do with 537 at all.

10 Q. But your answer to the other question is you did have something to

11 do with the documents in front of you in that binder, in the binder that

12 you're looking at?

13 A. I would have to look at the documents one by one.

14 Q. If you can turn to page 5 out of 8 of Document 537, I would just

15 like you to read to yourself subparagraph (k).

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would object because the witness

18 stated that he had nothing to do with the document, which is SITREP. G-3

19 was in charge of SITREP documents, and it was clarified during the direct

20 examination in the morning.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you that the witness has already

22 said that he will not answer any questions related to the documents which

23 he is not familiar with, did not prepare.

24 Mr. Meek, would you please skip this question.

25 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, my question would not be about the

Page 5067

1 document itself. I just wanted him to read the paragraph, and then I have

2 a question for him because he was in Mostar as an intelligence agent for

3 six, eight months.

4 JUDGE LIU: We have to know the point of that.

5 MR. MEEK: The point, Your Honour, is this: The point is this

6 document was generated in July of 1993 during a time period this witness

7 was acting as the intelligence officer for his battalion. And he was all

8 around the area. And I want to ask him a question about -- not exactly

9 the document or how it was prepared, but something that's contained in the

10 document to see if he can verify it. That's all.

11 JUDGE CLARK: He doesn't need to look at the document to do that.

12 Ask him the question.

13 MR. MEEK: All right. Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness JJ, while you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the months

15 that you were there in 1993, did it come in to your knowledge through all

16 of the sources that you had in your battalion of terrorist actions by the

17 Islamic militants?

18 A. Well, there were some news about Islamic militants, radical

19 militants, that could be operating in the area. But it wasn't our main

20 concern at all because, in our area of operations, we didn't have any

21 evidence that these people were working in the area. They were mostly

22 working in Central Bosnia.

23 Q. And when you say "Central Bosnia," tell the Trial Chamber how many

24 kilometres it would be from Central Bosnia to Mostar.

25 A. Well, it doesn't matter whether it's close or not; it's whether

Page 5068

1 the area is under our responsibility or not.

2 Q. So can we agree that it's very close from Central Bosnia to

3 Mostar?

4 A. You come to a conclusion I didn't give you. Central Bosnia

5 belonged -- was under the responsibility of a different brigade.

6 Q. I totally understand you, JJ. My only question is,

7 geographically, it's not very far --

8 A. Yes, indeed.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Did you become aware during your tenure in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

11 1993 of the booklet put out entitled "Instructions for an Islamic" -- "for

12 a Muslim Soldier"?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems to me that this document

17 has been already discussed in the Trial Chamber, and also the problem with

18 relevancy to the case was also discussed. No need to raise this question

19 again. It's quite -- completely irrelevant.

20 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, it has been asked and answered. I'm

21 going forward. I'm done. I just wanted to know if he heard about it.

22 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

23 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

24 Q. In Document 357, Witness JJ, which I think that you can testify

25 about, can you look at it, please.

Page 5069

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Page 5070

1 A. [In English] 357?

2 Q. Yes, sir, 357.

3 In direct examination, you indicated, I think, and please correct

4 me if I'm wrong - I think you will anyway - did you go to Doljani?

5 A. I've already told you that I probably went there, but I don't

6 really remember exactly when I did go.

7 Q. Okay. But my notes indicated that you testified - maybe you

8 didn't - that this city or town or village had been half destroyed. My

9 question to you is --

10 A. Where did I say this?

11 Q. Perhaps the document said that, not you.

12 A. I think that you got a problem with doctrine, dear sir. This is

13 not -- this does not reflect words of mine. This reflects information

14 received.

15 Q. Can you tell me --

16 A. I did not make this statement.

17 Q. Did it come from one of your units?

18 A. Yes, indeed.

19 Q. And does it have a credibility rating?

20 A. If it came from one of our units, it has credibility rating. Some

21 of the information from Doljani could come from other sources of

22 information and would not be as credible.

23 Q. And can you tell me, by looking at document 357, what was the

24 credibility rating?

25 A. If you look at the beginning of the document, you will realise

Page 5071

1 it's C2.

2 Q. So it's in the middle grade even though it comes from your unit;

3 correct?

4 A. I've explained before --

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. -- that -- I don't think it's worthwhile repeating. The

7 credibility or reliability is the less credibility of a group of documents

8 by INTREP. That's why it's got C2 rating. But if you look at this

9 document -- well, if it's C2, if at the same time it is mentioned that one

10 of our units has read it, this piece of information has A credibility

11 rating.

12 Q. I've just read your last answer from the transcript monitor, and

13 it appears, Witness JJ, that the document itself has a C2 rating, but you

14 said it has an A rating. Can you explain?

15 A. Well, perhaps it wasn't adequately translated what I said. I'm

16 going to explain the process of evaluation once again. Perhaps it would

17 have been better for you to listen more carefully to what I said.

18 Q. Witness, I understand the rating, how you do it. My only question

19 to you is: Which rating did this document get? That's all.

20 A. As I told you, that it's got a C2 rating. Why? Because it

21 receives the lowest level of all evaluations of the different types of

22 information that are part of the document.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. So that I gave you an example of this. If within this C2 report

25 there is one piece of information that comes from one of our units, this

Page 5072

1 information will not be a C2 information. It will be an A information.

2 Q. Thank you. And it may be in the translation. So I'm not meaning

3 to upset you, Witness. I truly am not.

4 Tell me, if you know, who negotiated in Jablanica. If you know.

5 If you don't, just tell me you don't know.

6 A. Who negotiated what?

7 Q. Negotiated a calming of the tensions.

8 A. Well, basically, the catalysing agent in Jablanica were the

9 commanders of a Spanish unit in the area, perhaps with the support of the

10 HQ.

11 Q. And if you know, and you may not, who were the HVO officials who

12 would have been negotiating?

13 A. I have no idea at all.

14 Q. Thank you. During your tenure in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1993, did

15 you become aware of any information from any source about Mujahedin in the

16 area?

17 A. What area, please?

18 Q. The area of Central Bosnia, Mostar, Siroki Brijeg, Jablanica.

19 A. Well, if we're referring to Bosnia, we did get information about

20 the possible presence of Mujahedins.

21 Q. And were these Mujahedin coming from the Middle East or Middle

22 East countries?

23 A. Yes. We would say from Arab countries.

24 Q. And did you, from the sources of information that you gathered,

25 learn also that there was funding for these Mujahedin coming from the Arab

Page 5073

1 countries?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems to me that this question

4 was not within the scope of witness commission in Bosnia, and now it is

5 not relevant to the case.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek. We don't believe that this question is

7 relevant to the issue. Would you please skip this question.

8 MR. MEEK: I will, Your Honour.

9 Q. Witness JJ, I have read the report. Would it be fair to say that,

10 for whatever reasons, that you may have had more contact with Muslims than

11 Croats or not?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness JJ, a few more questions and then I'll be finished,

14 hopefully.

15 Do you recall the name of the interpreter you mentioned when you

16 were with your commanding officer?

17 A. I don't remember the names of any interpreter.

18 Q. Thank you. And did you observe what kind of discipline there was

19 in the HVO army in the months that you were in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

20 Mostar area?

21 A. Well, if we compare this with a regular army, such as that of

22 NATO, their chain of command was not really very well defined. This is my

23 own personal opinion. And the commanders in chief did not really control

24 the operations. This is a personal opinion of mine, a feeling I got by

25 observing the situation. But I haven't seen any proof of lack of

Page 5074

1 discipline at certain levels. For instance, I went with one of the chiefs

2 of HVO in his vehicle, and one of the checkpoints wouldn't let us

3 through.

4 But taking into account details such as this, I came to the

5 conclusion that the channel of command wasn't very clear, and the way that

6 operations were conducted either.

7 Q. And I think in your statement, you had mentioned the fact that

8 when you and your commander -- or at least, your commander and you were

9 present -- attempted to have a meeting in Mostar to have joint HVO and BiH

10 details, but it didn't work. Do you recall that?

11 A. No, no, no. You haven't understood anything that I said. I think

12 you mean the joint commission.

13 Q. That's what I meant, yes.

14 A. The joint commission was a forum which was organised principally

15 for the people who came from the United Nations, and I don't mean UNPROFOR

16 only because there were also representatives of the European Union. And

17 even more civilians were there than the military. So it wasn't a debating

18 forum, a forum to discuss strictly military issues.

19 Q. Perhaps we've misunderstood each other. On page 3 of your

20 statement to the OTP, you talk about the negotiations with --

21 A. These were not the negotiations of the joint commission.

22 Q. No, no, no, I understand that. Just listen to my question,

23 please. You've already testified today about General Pellnas's meeting in

24 Mostar. Do you recall that?

25 A. Vaguely.

Page 5075

1 Q. And Pellnas had an idea to establish joint patrols between

2 Bosniaks and Croats. Do you recall that?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. That didn't work, did it?

5 A. Indeed, it didn't.

6 Q. It didn't work because, as you've indicated at least in your

7 written statement, that everybody in Mostar who had a gun considered

8 himself to be a policeman. Isn't that a fact?

9 A. It is. But to try to explain to the person who interviewed me,

10 because that is what civil wars look like.

11 Q. And in your opinion, this was a civil war?

12 A. Well, if we consider that this was happening in one and the same

13 country. I do not know whether that is the legal term, whether legally

14 this is a civil war, but in my view as a military man, if you have two

15 sides in one and the same country fighting one another, then this is, to

16 my mind, a civil war.

17 Q. Witness JJ, you've indicated in your statement that you and

18 General Pellnas even slept in the HVO headquarters in Mostar. Do you

19 recall?

20 A. Yes, yes, we spent a night -- that is, I spent part of that night

21 patrolling.

22 Q. That was my question. Was it only one night or two nights?

23 A. For me, I think it was one night only, or perhaps there were two.

24 I don't know.

25 Q. I would like you to look at Document 401 briefly.

Page 5076

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Page 5077

1 MR. MEEK: For the record, this is a document dated 18 May, 1993.

2 And on page 5 of the English, there's a comment. You may want to turn to

3 English or Spanish; either.

4 Q. Was the Bosnian Serb army shelling Mostar so that they could

5 exploit the situation and the prevailing confusion to ensure the

6 continuation of the conflict between the Muslims and the Croats? That's

7 my question.

8 A. As I explained this morning, all of this which is under "Comment"

9 is the analyst's view that need not be true at all. It may be just a

10 conclusion of the person who analyzed that piece of information.

11 Q. Now, on the other hand, Witness JJ, it may be a hundred percent

12 true. Correct?

13 A. This is just a comment. It is not information.

14 Q. The comments -- tell me, aren't comments made from the information

15 that you receive, as an information officer, from various locations and

16 various sources?

17 A. No. The problem is that the interpretation was not correct. A

18 comment in this case, it's -- it means a hypothetical, a new line of

19 investigation - that is what the comment is - which may lead to nowhere or

20 may produce something. One constantly works, analyses, because there may

21 be dozens of hypotheses. And for this, this is put as a comment, so the

22 one who reads it can know what he is reading, that this is a personal

23 opinion, that this is a hypothesis, not something that is hundred percent

24 true.

25 Q. Fair enough.

Page 5078

1 Do you know -- if you know, to your personal knowledge, did your

2 unit or any other units from your government that were in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina follow up on that comment that the Bosnian Serb army

4 was shelling East Mostar?

5 A. No. It would be very difficult to confirm it.

6 Q. Please look at 424. Document 424, please.

7 A. I don't have it.

8 Q. You don't?

9 A. No, I don't have it.

10 Q. Witness JJ, if you could look at page 4 of the English

11 translation, right in the middle of the page. Did you become aware

12 about -- on or about the 30th of May, 1993, that the rumours had continued

13 to circulate about mass detention, possible mass detention of Muslim men

14 by the HVO? Did you know that?

15 A. Well, yes.

16 Q. And did you also know that at least on May 30, 1993, there was no

17 evidence that this was happening? Isn't that what your report says?

18 A. Yes, indeed.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. But just a moment. I need to read the Spanish version.

21 Q. Certainly.

22 A. Yes, that is quite right. It was translated correctly.

23 Q. My last question to you, sir, or questions, hopefully only one,

24 would be: Since you testified you did travel to Jablanica approximately

25 ten times, you had to go through checkpoints manned by the ABiH army, did

Page 5079

1 you not?

2 A. Yes. And the HVO.

3 Q. Both?

4 A. No, no, no. On the way.

5 Q. Yes. On the way, you went through both checkpoints?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Do you recall, Witness JJ, if you do recall, were there more ABiH

8 checkpoints in that area or more HVO checkpoints? And if you don't know,

9 I understand.

10 A. I don't understand. There were a number of checkpoints of

11 different sides. I don't really remember how many.

12 Q. One last question, if you can answer it. Did the ABiH army

13 specifically allow SpaBat units to go to the front lines with them?

14 A. No. Now I don't really remember. I don't know if it is any

15 document, whether our people there were informed about something like

16 that. Whether they went with them, I don't know.

17 Q. Witness JJ, you're in the intelligence service for your army;

18 correct?

19 A. Well, I haven't explained the organisation of the army and all the

20 services. I was merely the intelligence officer of the Canarias group.

21 Q. In layman's terms for a non-military officer, would that also be

22 what would also be called a spy?

23 A. No, no, no.

24 Q. Witness JJ, I want to thank you very much. It's been a pleasure

25 to listen to your testimony. Thank you for coming to The Hague.

Page 5080

1 A. [In English] Okay.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Meek.

3 Mr. Seric, cross-examination, please.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Seric:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Witness JJ, my name is Branko Seric, and I

7 represent Vinko Martinovic. Could you tell us, please, very briefly, as

8 briefly as possible, what was the function of the Spanish Battalion at the

9 time?

10 A. [Interpretation] Basically, the function was the support to the

11 United Nations personnel in matters of the distribution of humanitarian

12 aid, monitoring of the security situation, and encouragement to all the

13 options that could bring about the abating of the tension and including

14 the cessation of hostilities.

15 Q. Could you tell us now, within the scope of those tasks of your

16 battalion, what was the function of your own intelligence work?

17 A. I've already explained it. It was to obtain, to procure

18 information so as to evaluate it and so that the superiors could then take

19 decisions.

20 Q. When collecting information, did you avail yourselves, among other

21 sources, the Muslim secret intelligence service, AID? Was that one of

22 your sources?

23 A. No. No. Let's see. We are now entering an area which -- we have

24 certain sources, but at that level, to talk about secret services, we were

25 not -- we were not members -- that is, we were part of the tactical

Page 5081

1 information so that the commands could evaluate this and take decisions.

2 We were not talking about any secret services.

3 Q. Who collected information for you on the ground?

4 A. Well, I've already explained it. Units deployed on the ground,

5 that was the principal source. And contacts and interviews that we had

6 always open with the different representatives of different factions. And

7 also, we received information from superior echelons of the UNPROFOR and

8 collateral units.

9 Q. That is what I was asking. In the process of the collection of

10 information from various sources, that is, as a result of work on the

11 ground, can you exclude the possibility that the information that reached

12 the people collecting information may have been also obtained from the

13 Muslim secret service, AID?

14 A. Yes, that could be, but nobody was ever introduced himself or

15 nobody was identified ever as a member of any such service on either of

16 the two sides.

17 Q. I quite understand that because no intelligence officer will

18 reveal his job openly, because then he wouldn't be able to do his work.

19 So that is why I'm asking you to what extent you evaluated the quality of

20 the sources of information and not just the quality of the information

21 itself?

22 A. It depends on things. Of course, we have to evaluate both these

23 things. One evaluates the source when one analyses the whole background

24 and all the information, and one also analyses within the context, and one

25 analyses the information within the context within which it was received.

Page 5082

1 Q. Can you confirm that I understand correctly that you personally

2 did not collect information on the ground?

3 A. Yes, it was only when I had contacts. It was always open talking,

4 doing interviews, not using any secret, any covert means of work or

5 anything.

6 Q. Did you personally -- were you personally involved in selecting

7 information?

8 A. The information was collected by all the members of the G-2. No,

9 this is not what I said. I said that the evaluation of the information

10 was a decision which was joint of all the members of the G-2, that is,

11 having studied all the aspects that I already mentioned before.

12 Q. My question was whether information was selected and the documents

13 connected to that information, or do we find in these binders everything

14 that you collected?

15 A. Yeah, I see. Now I understand what you're asking. Well, yes,

16 there is a certain selection. But what is eliminated -- what was

17 eliminated at the time were residual things, completely, completely

18 irrelevant or, shall I say, silly things, for instance.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric, we believe that this question has been

20 asked by Mr. Meek already. You have to avoid the repetition of asking the

21 same questions.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for your

23 instructions. I only have two or three more questions, and then I'm

24 through with the cross-examination.

25 Q. Who analysed the information?

Page 5083

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Page 5084

1 A. Members of the G-2.

2 Q. Have you ever serviced any other Court with your information in

3 any other legal institution?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I am going to make a submission, and it's up to you to respond

6 with yes or no. In my submission, after having heard your testimony

7 today, and I have the binders which my client has not been able to review

8 because they haven't been translated into his mother tongue, so we were

9 not able to analyse them together, this is a pile of indications and

10 reports carried -- collected on the ground in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

11 A. This is information received from all the sources, as I already

12 explained. That is, our units, interviews conducted by our people, people

13 who were monitors, who then told us about the interviews they had, and so

14 on and so forth.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I do not have

16 any further questions.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Any re-examination, Mr. Prosecutor?

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I have a couple of questions.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

21 Q. I would like to direct the witness to Exhibit 407, page 5, English

22 version; page 3, Spanish version. This document is dated 20th of May,

23 '93, INTREP. One question: Just paragraph 3 at the top in the English

24 version. Does this document contain information that, by that time, by

25 the 20th of May, some prisoners from Heliodrom had been released?

Page 5085

1 A. The question is?

2 Q. Yes, that the prisoners had been released and were being

3 released.

4 A. The reference here, it says that after a meeting of the joint

5 commission, there should be a visit to the Heliodrom, and it says that the

6 HVO members should -- that they would immediately release the prisoners.

7 Q. One paragraph down, please. That's about buses.

8 A. Yes. I spoke about that this morning.

9 Q. The same document. It was already examined by you. My next

10 question will be: I would like you to open the document Exhibit 474,

11 dated the 2nd of June, 1993. Page 4, English version; page 3, Spanish

12 version. Under the heading "Jablanica," just paragraph 2. Have you found

13 it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Does this document contain information that in the area there are

16 HVO troops of Jusuf Prazina, "Juka," as written, and Mladen Naletilic,

17 written "aka Tuta"?

18 A. Yes. But this information, it is below another heading which says

19 "Other Information," and these are miscellaneous items here, and the --

20 it would be -- it would have one of the lowest credibility ratings at this

21 stage here.

22 Q. And my last question will be -- let's turn to Exhibit 476. This

23 is INTREP 212, 23rd of June, 1993. Page 4, 5, English version; page 3, 4,

24 Spanish version. The same, under the heading "Jablanica," paragraph 1,

25 2.

Page 5086

1 A. Yes. Well, it's the same thing. It comes under the heading

2 "Other Information." Had there been other information that could

3 properly be corroborated and verified, then it would have received a

4 much -- a much more prominent place. This could be just a commentary.

5 And it is left in the text, but -- I mean, just as in the previous case,

6 that is, other business, other matter, again a miscellaneous.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... there is some comment that

8 commanders of special units, groups, like Juka and Tuta, have left the

9 area and are present in Prozor.

10 A. This is a comment.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 A. There is no evidence.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

14 questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It is time to break. We will

16 resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day

19 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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