Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5611

1 Wednesday, 14 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par, we were informed that you are going to

9 address the Chamber before we have the next witness. Yes, please.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I will try

11 to be brief. I would like to request leave for addressing the Chamber

12 before we continue with the normal session with a question regarding the

13 scope of examination-in-chief of this witness. I would again request the

14 position of the Chamber regarding the examination of this witness about

15 things which are not within the scope of the indictment because according

16 to the statement of this witness that we have been given, it follows that

17 he spoke about certain things beyond the scope of the indictment.

18 I do not know if he has the right to be asked about these things,

19 and I don't know if I will have time to put in my objection. I don't know

20 how long or to what extent the Prosecutor intends to question him about

21 such issues.

22 My question is: Is it the position of the Trial Chamber that they

23 would allow for this witness to be questioned about things which are not

24 covered by the indictment during the examination-in-chief, although this

25 witness has had knowledge about these things for a number of years? The

Page 5612

1 position of the Defence of Vinko Martinovic is that the Prosecutor should

2 not be allowed to introduce unverified stories that he himself did not

3 want to include in the indictment and that could leave the wrong

4 impression about the accused.

5 We believe it is wrong to charge the accused with some things in

6 the indictment and then talk about completely different things during

7 examination-in-chief. We believe that this witness should be questioned

8 in accordance with the indictment and that the judgment should also be

9 made accordingly. This is the practice that we are familiar with, that we

10 adhere to, and we would like to hear the opinion of the Chamber as to

11 whether we are right and whether this position can be upheld in this court

12 as well, and to instruct us otherwise if the Chamber believes that is

13 necessary. That is all. Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you allow me to say

16 a couple of more things in the same context, especially since we have the

17 next witness pending today. I have received the Prosecutor's request for

18 closed session for the examination of that lady witness. The charge is

19 that she was raped. And from the very request, we can see that the

20 Prosecutor intends to examine her on something that is not in the

21 indictment. That same victim of rape is now supposed to be subjected to

22 both examination-in-chief and cross-examination regarding a crime that was

23 not included in the indictment. So the situation is similar to the one

24 that was discussed by my colleague, Mr. Par. I have nothing against the

25 protective measures proposed for this witness, but I just want to say that

Page 5613

1 I believe that it is not necessary to examine her at all, because this

2 crime is not among the charges.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour, I hadn't

5 thought I would need to be on my feet again for the same reason, because

6 we are dealing here with a cross-examination of a protected witness, whose

7 identity I allegedly revealed. This lady witness mentioned by my

8 colleague Mr. Seric says that on television - I don't know which

9 television or where - she saw me divulging her identity, and that is one

10 more reason why she needs protective measures.

11 Your Honours, I have to say that after we cross-examined the

12 protected witness and after we studied the transcript, it must be clear

13 that I did not reveal her identity, that the name mentioned is completely

14 different, and I think it can be confirmed. So after we have clarified

15 this, I was corrected and I apologised, and for the Prosecutor to raise

16 this issue again in such an improper way is really unexpected.

17 JUDGE LIU: I guess Mr. Meek will not take the floor this time?

18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning. Very

19 briefly, early on in this trial, the Trial Chamber asked that both sides

20 talked to each other before we filed any motions. I have endeavoured to

21 speak with the Prosecutors whenever possible before I filed a motion.

22 This motion that we received today about the lady who will be coming on

23 next was unexpected because they did not talk with us. Had they talked

24 with us, we probably could have resolved this very briefly and shortly.

25 That's all I would have to say, Your Honour.

Page 5614

1 JUDGE LIU: So Mr. Scott is standing.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'd like to make address the general

3 issue. And concerning in particular the next witness, who Mr. Stringer

4 will be handling, in terms of the particular items of that witness, I will

5 turn to Mr. Stringer on.

6 As the more general matter for the trial as a whole on this topic,

7 Mr. President, Your Honours, this seems to be become a new tactic over the

8 past couple of weeks, probably prompted by the recent ruling in the

9 Kupreskic appeal. And I've seen this happen, of course, as we probably

10 all have, in our own jurisdictions before: A new case comes out,

11 particularly an appellate case, that is widely read in a particular

12 community, and then that becomes the common topic of -- in all hearings

13 and cases for some weeks and months thereafter as every Defence team, or

14 every Prosecution team, for that matter, raises that issue du jour, if I

15 can put it that way.

16 That is not what is happening in this case. It's not a situation

17 where the Prosecution here is attempting by any means to substitute "new

18 charges" for charges not in the indictment. This is simply a matter of

19 evidence. It is simply a matter of evidence that goes to what is in fact

20 charged in the indictment. Indictments do not have to - and I submit not

21 even under any current or new ICTY jurisprudence - have to plead the

22 details of the evidence that a party will submit to support particular

23 charges.

24 Both of these accused are charged with courses of conduct

25 involving the repeated expulsions of families and civilians and others

Page 5615

1 from homes in Mostar. They are charged with a course of conduct by their

2 own conduct and by instigation and by their example to their subordinates,

3 the beating and mistreatment of prisoners, the use of prisoners for forced

4 labour, the use of prisoners as human shields, et cetera.

5 Now, it's clear that not every single incident, not every single

6 name of every prisoner so victimised, of every Muslim family so

7 victimised, is named in the indictment. And we suggest -- we take the

8 position that that is not required. But the charges being what they are,

9 the Prosecution, we submit, is entitled to present its case, is entitled

10 to present the witnesses' testimony and evidence on these matters.

11 Now, again, I'm going to let Mr. Stringer address specifically the

12 testimony of this next witness - not the one we are in the middle of now

13 but the next witness - and that probably should be done in private session

14 because it touches on a protected witness matter.

15 There was also -- before I forget it, there was also a reference

16 just now by one of the counsel, that this also had something to do with --

17 is based on reports by others. Well, this Chamber knows well by now that

18 hearsay is widely accepted in this Chamber. Clearly there may become --

19 in this institution, excuse me. Clearly there may come an instance, there

20 may be circumstances where the hearsay becomes so remote that it should

21 not be heard. That is not this case. This hearsay is no different than

22 the hearsay that is admitted in the three courtrooms of this institution

23 every day. So that simply is not a basis to exclude this evidence.

24 Your Honour, the witnesses come and they tell their whole story.

25 It is completely artificial, in our view, to have a witness come, for

Page 5616

1 instance, that has been expelled from her home and not be able to tell her

2 full story and act as if certain things didn't happen during the time that

3 her and her family were expelled. It is simply saying, "Well, we're not

4 going to let you tell us about that."

5 It is directly relevant to the charges in the indictment. There

6 is no attempt by the Prosecution to substitute any new or different

7 charges. The charges are what they are, and this evidence is directly

8 relevant to that.

9 And further, there is no surprise here. There has been -- the

10 notice has been given a long time ago, either in the indictment as to what

11 the charges are, and in all the 65 ter summaries that the Prosecution has

12 made. These summaries of witness testimony, what we expected the

13 witnesses to testify, were made over a year ago in the original 65 ter

14 summaries back when the Chamber was comprised among the other Judges. 65

15 ter summaries were provided at that time. This testimony was included.

16 The Defence has had notice of this for over a year.

17 So this is not a surprise issue. It is not properly a hearsay

18 issue. It is not properly a question of changing the charges in the

19 indictment. It is simply a matter of the Chamber hearing evidence from

20 witnesses who have come a long way to tell their stories and on evidence

21 on which the Defence has had notice for more than a year. We completely

22 oppose, obviously, the Defence position on this. The Chamber should hear

23 this evidence, and I leave it to Mr. Stringer to address the more details

24 of that particular witness in private session, please.

25 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

Page 5617

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16 [Open session]

17 [The witness entered court]

18 WITNESS: ALLAN ASBJORN KNUDSEN [Resumed]

19 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

20 THE WITNESS: Morning.

21 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me?

22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can hear you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Please remember that you are still under the solemn

24 declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.

Page 5625

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

2 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev: [Continued]

3 Q. Mr. Knudsen, yesterday our session was adjourned at the moment

4 when we were discussing the confrontation line. My question will be: Was

5 Vinko Skrobo the only unit that was in charge of the confrontation line?

6 A. Yes, at that point.

7 Q. Were there any other units who were involved in guarding the

8 confrontation line?

9 A. We were told we had a unit on our right side who were supposed to

10 be a Kaznjenicka Bojna as well, and I'm not sure if it's true, but we were

11 supposed to have Vojna Policija, military police, on our left side.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, I would like the witness to be shown

13 Exhibit Number 14.4.

14 THE REGISTRAR: You want it to be annoted? I would like to give

15 the number now, P14.4/3.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

17 Q. Mr. Knudsen, what does this picture depict?

18 A. Excuse me?

19 Q. What does this picture depict?

20 A. This picture is our positions. If you look at the big white

21 building, we would have a position at the corner of it. And we had this

22 large building here. We didn't have anything in that. Here, we had this

23 big red building which was a bunker on the side of it so you could watch

24 in the gar [phoen] here. And down here, there is what you call a command

25 bunker. And over here, this one, we had a position as well at the corner

Page 5626

1 of the house. And it would go in a shift, one, two, three, four, and five

2 positions.

3 You got the confrontation line going here. This side is the

4 Croatian side. And where the line did go from there, I do not know.

5 Q. Let's stop at this point. And it would be appropriate if we mark

6 all these positions in this picture. Please take a marker.

7 So with a number "1," I invite you to mark your first position in

8 the medical centre.

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. With number "2," I invite you to mark the position on this long

11 building, multi-storey building with a red roof.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Could I have a look? Put it on the ELMO just to check if -- yes,

14 yes, yes. I mean on the left side. The building on the left side should

15 be marked with number "2."

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. And then you mentioned a third building that had some positions

18 and a sort of basement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you mark it on this picture.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Sorry, I don't see number "3." Where is it? Oh, okay.

23 A. Point it out? This is the one.

24 Q. Yes, because you have a green marker, and you put your mark on the

25 green colour.

Page 5627

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. But it's okay.

3 Witness, when you say that you had your position, what do you mean

4 by that?

5 A. What I mean is that you make, like, a shift, which means if you

6 came on the first day, you would stay at position 1, and this would be

7 your guard line that day. And then you have 12 hours off at a time, and a

8 certain time we had 25 hours off. And then next time you come -- can I

9 mark something?

10 Q. Yes, yes.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. What did you --

13 A. I wrote "4" there because in the yard - there is a yard behind -

14 we had also a position, so you can be on the lookout here. And then we go

15 like this, that one day you would be sitting on one position, next day you

16 came, you will be sitting on the next position, and you would go around.

17 Q. Okay. Let's now go to your position indicated as number "2." In

18 which part of the building exactly did you have your positions?

19 A. We had it at the corner.

20 Q. Of the ground floor or on the upper floor?

21 A. Ground floor.

22 Q. And what was there in the other parts of the building?

23 A. It was, like, just apartments.

24 Q. Were they vacant or occupied by the inhabitants?

25 A. No. I would guess one or two lived at the front line; people did

Page 5628

1 that down there. But otherwise, I wouldn't say that anybody lived there.

2 Q. Did you ever have your shifts in the building number 3?

3 A. Yes. It was a corner with sandbags, where you would sit behind

4 and just listen with your back against the yard.

5 Q. Mr. Knudsen, I would like to hear from you. For example, you are

6 in position number 2.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which part of the confrontation line was supposed to be under your

9 control?

10 A. This yard here. It was actually all about, I would say,

11 position 4, and position 3 were only about to guard this yard here because

12 the Muslims could get in here at that time. Position number 2, you were

13 supposed to be on the watchout for this piece here, because at a frequent

14 time, you had a bunker system built in here, the corner.

15 Q. And what about position 1?

16 A. Position 1?

17 Q. What was the area of your observation?

18 A. Position 1 was also at the corner. It was built up like you were

19 sitting in a chair, with your back against the line, and you had this

20 mirror on your left side. So you watched in the mirror, and you could see

21 what was happening, and it was the same thing again. You were watching

22 this piece here.

23 Q. And you just told the Trial Chamber that there was a sort of

24 basement in your position number 3?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5629

1 Q. And for what purposes was that basement used?

2 A. The purpose that -- in number 3, you had the end of the building.

3 Down the basement, I would have what we say like a command bunker, I

4 guess. It's not really a bunker. It's sandbag built in. And then would

5 you go down the basement, you had what we call a sort of trenches or built

6 like trenches, that run along the building to got up in the end of the

7 building here, so you could go to position 1, 4.

8 Q. And you also said that there were some other units just involved

9 in the guarding of the confrontation line. Could you show in this picture

10 the locations that were under those units' control?

11 A. I can put it like this: These buildings here were in control of

12 our unit. And how exactly the line went at that time down here, we didn't

13 actually know. But we were asking once who were in command or who was on

14 our right side here, and were told it was another Kaznjenicka Bojna. And

15 then we asked who was on our left side, and we didn't go there, but we

16 were told that it was military police guarding this piece.

17 Q. And could you just indicate where the enemy positions were?

18 A. The lines was going here, as we knew, and up here then, as I

19 recall.

20 Q. So just to clarify, there are two destroyed buildings?

21 A. Yeah, these destroyed.

22 Q. Yes, and the next one, upper.

23 A. And also up here.

24 Q. Okay. Perhaps with numbers "5" and "6," you should indicate those

25 two buildings.

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Page 5631

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. According to today's testimony, there was a sort of command office

3 in your position number 3. Did you ever see Stela in that bunker?

4 A. In the bunker?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. Yes. But that was later on, not in the beginning.

7 Q. Did you see any other commanders in that bunker?

8 A. We saw other officers at the bunker. What I mean is we didn't

9 talk to these people. But you got insignia, or your having a Motorola.

10 You were an officer.

11 Q. Would you tell the Trial Chamber how many of Stela's subordinates

12 you can identify as his commanders, sub-commanders, let's say? Do you

13 remember anyone?

14 A. I only remember Alan as we was thinking about one of the

15 subordinate officers. But this is this guy I know by name. Other guys

16 I've seen, I can only tell by viewing them.

17 Q. So if I correctly understand you, the main, just criteria was if

18 the soldier had a Motorola and some insignia?

19 A. Motorola or some insignia.

20 Q. Okay. Were those buildings in your area of responsibility somehow

21 fortified?

22 A. Yes, they were fortified with sandbags from the inside.

23 Excuse me, can I remove this?

24 Q. Yes, yes.

25 And who was in charge of making or repairing of those

Page 5632

1 fortifications?

2 A. Prisoners were. We had prisoners working at the front line all

3 the time. And if something happened, these guys would build it up again.

4 Q. And where did you take those prisoners from?

5 A. At that time, I guess they were taken from Heliodrom.

6 Q. Did you ever go to Heliodrom to pick up prisoners?

7 A. Yes. I think about two times.

8 Q. And did they return prisoners normally on the same day to

9 Heliodrom?

10 A. Not that I know of.

11 Q. And what do you know was happening to the prisoners taken from

12 Heliodrom? Where did they keep them?

13 A. We were not exactly sure where they kept them because the only

14 times we see them under guard off line, they would be in, like, a small

15 glass house, those ones in which you sell papers, cigarettes, standing

16 next to Stela's command.

17 Q. And how did Stela and his subordinates treat prisoners who were

18 involved in some jobs on the Bulevar or were kept in other places or

19 Stela's responsibility?

20 A. I'm not quite sure. What do you mean by the question?

21 Q. Treated. It's a very broad term. It's a broad term.

22 A. That's what I mean.

23 Q. Was their treatment, let's say, humane?

24 A. If you mean if I saw any torture or beatings, no, I did not see

25 that done by Stela.

Page 5633

1 Q. Did you know of any facts of prisoners being mistreated by other

2 members of the Vinko Skrobo unit?

3 A. No, I didn't see anyone actually get beaten by someone in the

4 unit.

5 Q. But were you informed of any facts of beating? Did you have any

6 knowledge of such kind of facts?

7 A. Not exactly, no. I wouldn't say so.

8 Q. And just about foreign soldiers, how did they treat prisoners?

9 A. Do you mean generally, or do you mean a specific incidence?

10 Q. Generally and specific incidents.

11 A. Generally they were treated all right. We didn't have a lot of

12 contact. What I mean is you go to the line, and you got prisoners

13 working. These prisoners would bring coffee or build up sandbags or

14 removing sandbags. You were not supposed to sit down and talk to these

15 guys, so therefore we didn't have much contact.

16 Q. Apart from your daily duties, which consisted in guarding the

17 confrontation line, were Stela's soldiers involved in some other jobs

18 which were carried out not within the area indicated by you, just in the

19 picture? Did they go to perform any duties to some other parts of Mostar,

20 to the best of your knowledge?

21 A. To the best of my knowledge, no.

22 Q. Did you have knowledge about any facts of looting committed by

23 Vinko Skrobo soldiers?

24 A. At the present time, no.

25 Q. I'm not asking you about the present time. I'm asking you about

Page 5634

1 the time of war.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. I believe the

4 witness has answered the question, and now my learned friend is attempting

5 to lead the witness to obtain a different answer.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Prosecutor, you have to rephrase your

7 question.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have already rephrased my question. I asked

9 him about the facts of looting, and if he knew -- if he had knowledge at

10 the time when he was a soldier. I'm not asking the present time.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, the question has been

13 asked and has been answered. This witness has no knowledge presently of

14 anything that occurred in this regard when he was in Bosnia, in Mostar, in

15 1993. He answered the question. It's unfortunate that the answer was not

16 that as sought by the Prosecutor, but it's an answer, and I don't believe

17 it's proper to keep this line of questioning going.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well --

19 THE WITNESS: Excuse me --

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, the witness said that at the present time, no.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I wanted to clarify.

22 JUDGE LIU: We could not understand what this means. It could be

23 interpreted in several ways.

24 So, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please clear it up for us.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes.

Page 5635

1 Q. Witness, you just told that at a time present, no. But I'm not

2 asking you about the present time. I'm just asking you if you had any

3 knowledge about the facts of looting committed by Vinko Skrobo soldiers.

4 A. What I can say is -- sorry, what I didn't understand was did you

5 mean in the beginning? Because in my eyes, we are still at the first time

6 we went to Mostar. Or did you mean during the whole war when I was to

7 Mostar? That's what I mean.

8 Q. I was clear-cut in my second question: During the war when you

9 were serving in the Vinko Skrobo unit. We are not talking about the

10 initial stage of your serving in the unit.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just say something? This is a propos of what

12 I said yesterday, Mr. Poriouvaev. Sometimes you asked this witness to

13 deal chronologically, and then other times your questions are more

14 general. The witness is trying - and I think doing it well - to deal with

15 his first stay with the Vinko Skrobo unit in Mostar, and I think he was

16 injured, he left for a while, and then he came back. So if we allow him

17 to deal with it in two tranches - his first stay, the injury, going away,

18 and then the coming back - probably we will get a much clearer picture,

19 and then you can generalise at the end. It's a suggestion. He seems to

20 like doing it that way, this witness. He's put some precision in his

21 answers.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I'm just asking some questions about

23 a general character, not specifying the date, and that's why maybe my

24 questions seem too general to the witness.

25 Q. Witness Knudsen, just after Judge Clark's remarks and my

Page 5636

1 explanation, could you give answer to this question?

2 A. I have a question. Your Honour, can I go to the toilet just for

3 one minute? Seriously.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will break for five minutes.

5 --- Break taken at 10.30 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Before you start, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to say

8 that I did not realise that when I said something about the oral motions

9 made by Defence counsel, we were still in the private session. So we

10 don't need this part to be in the private session, so this part of the

11 confidentiality should be lifted as if it was delivered in the open

12 session. Thank you.

13 You may continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

15 Q. So, Mr. Knudsen, while asking you about beatings, lootings, I

16 meant the whole period you were within Vinko Skrobo unit, which actually

17 was not very long.

18 A. No. I would say no, in a sense. I mean, we didn't see people

19 running around looting. The deal is we were foreigners together. We go

20 to the front line, you take your shift, you go back. And basically,

21 because you did not speak the Croatian language, you stick together with

22 these guys, and you actually don't have a lot of contact with the Croats.

23 If we wanted something or needed something, we would go to Stela at the

24 base unit and talk to Alan and he would translate. And that was mostly

25 how it went.

Page 5637

1 Q. All right. My next question will be: Did you participate in any

2 military operations undertaken on the Bulevar area?

3 A. Yes, we did that on the 17th.

4 Q. 17th of what?

5 A. September.

6 Q. Were you informed of the forthcoming operation beforehand?

7 A. We were informed the day before. We were on the front line or

8 confrontation line, and a guy came to us on our shift, as I recall, named

9 Damir, and talked to a us in a way, pidgin English. And are you ready for

10 action tomorrow? We said, of course, we are ready.

11 Q. Excuse me. Name of this guy?

12 A. Damir. I said of course we were ready, but we were not quite sure

13 if something was about to happen. So we went home, you know, took our

14 shift, got back, and were told that we were supposed to meet next day at

15 the line at 9.00 p.m., and we did that.

16 Do you want me to go further?

17 Q. Yes, yes, yes. That's why I'm --

18 A. We went to the line next day. The ammo guy was making our

19 equipment ready when we got there. And Stela came there with Alan, and

20 nobody at that time really knew what was going to happen. There was no -

21 what you call it - plan of attack. There was no target being pointed at

22 that time, present time.

23 And then Stela came out and -- with this guy Alan, telling us, you

24 know, we're going to take two buildings at the front line, and we were

25 supposed to go first. There would be heavy artillery shelling from our

Page 5638

1 side against the Muslim side. As we were told, it was going to be about

2 2.000 shelling, grenades. We didn't know how many. A couple, few

3 hundred, I guess. And basically, that ammo guy, one guy from the ammo,

4 and we would have prisoners in front of us as a shield. And he thought

5 that was funny, you know, and he laughed at that.

6 The deal, though, was these prisoners were supposed to make wooden

7 guns. And they were actually sitting the night before making these guns

8 at the base because we saw them as our apartment was about 800, 900 metres

9 maybe away from Stela's. Not far. And we always walked this road to our

10 house, you know, and they would sit outside making these wooden guns. And

11 we came to the front line, and the attack was about to go off. A tank

12 moving up, a T55, it's taken down the road.

13 Q. Witness, I would like you to stop at this point.

14 A. Okay.

15 Q. And we should clarify some more details about the initial stage of

16 the operation. Did they told -- tell you which buildings should be

17 reached during that operation? I mean the buildings on the opposite side

18 of the confrontation line.

19 A. We were told that we had a target, and our target were two

20 buildings just the other side of the road.

21 Q. Do you mean buildings that were indicated by you in the picture

22 with number "5" and "6"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you remember at what time did the operation start on the 17th

25 of September?

Page 5639

1 A. Yes. It was supposed to take off at 9.00 when we arrived, but I

2 think it was about 11.00, something like that, when we took off.

3 Q. Where were you waiting for the beginning of the operation?

4 A. We were in bunkers. What I mean "bunkers," waiting inside, the

5 building was built up with sand sacks from inside.

6 Q. Which building?

7 A. The white building, the dentist building, medical.

8 Q. The medical building?

9 A. Yes, position 1.

10 Q. Position 1 as indicated in the pictures, position 1. Were

11 prisoners with wooden rifles in the same building before the attack?

12 A. Yeah. They were in the same room.

13 Q. Did you actually see those, let's say, wooden rifles?

14 A. Yes, I saw them.

15 Q. What did they look like?

16 A. Like a wooden rifle. I mean, it was not what you call a good

17 copy, if that's what you mean, but they looked like -- they were supposed

18 to look like Kalashnikovs.

19 Q. But did you see them at close range?

20 A. Yeah, I did, because the prisoners were sitting close by, 1 or

21 2 metres.

22 Q. In what uniform were prisoners dressed?

23 A. They had civilian clothes at first, but when we were supposed to

24 move out, they got this, you call it military jacket.

25 Q. What kind of jacket?

Page 5640

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Page 5641

1 A. Camouflage.

2 Q. And who was the man who gave the order just to start the attack,

3 to start the attack?

4 A. There was a guy in the bunker, a Croatian guy, and I'm not sure of

5 his name. Everything is moving fast, and some guys said, "All right. We

6 go out now." So we went outside and lined up behind the building, the

7 prisoners first.

8 Q. Okay. Let's go back now to Exhibit 14.5. This is the same area

9 but a little bit bigger. P14.5?

10 JUDGE LIU: You mean P14.5?

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm sorry, yes, yes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

14 Q. So I would like you to mark the locations where you were waiting

15 for the beginning of the attack with number "1"?

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. So, okay. Let's go on. So you left this building, and what did

18 you see outside, first of all?

19 A. Do you mean -- I mean --

20 Q. As soon as you left the building, what was happening on the

21 confrontation line at that time? You were inside of the building.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Outside, what was happening?

24 A. Of course there has been a lot of shelling at first, but it was

25 quiet outside now. And so we just lined up here behind the building, the

Page 5642

1 prisoners going first, and then you ran here, beside the building, and in

2 this direction here, and was pinned down behind this small wall up here.

3 Q. Could you just show with a marker the direction you were moving?

4 A. Sure.

5 Q. And with an arrow in the end of the line, please.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Was there a tank present at that time during the attack? Did you

8 see --

9 A. Excuse me?

10 Q. Did you see the tank at that time?

11 A. Tent?

12 Q. Tank?

13 A. The tank? Yeah, sorry. Yeah, because the tank was moving up

14 first. Normally we had sandbags in this direction here, built over, but

15 they has been removed the day before, and the tank move out about this

16 position and started firing over here. At that time, we were sitting in

17 here, you know, could see it come by, see it shoot or hear it shoot, and

18 then it pull back. And then we got out here, this direction, and lying

19 here, you know. And we were lying here, the tank moved up here and

20 stopped here, right here, and started pointing the gun this way and

21 everybody's, like, yelling because it's a pressure, you know.

22 Q. I suggest that you should mark with number "2" the place where the

23 tank was standing and shooting the opposite side.

24 A. Last time or the first time?

25 Q. First and second time.

Page 5643

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Then it may be numbers "2" and "3."

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. Now, explain.

5 A. It's probably a bit difficult to see. What I mean is this: Where

6 it moved, at the first time, because he was supposed to take out a bunker,

7 this bunker we had at the corner here, and pull back, you know. And the

8 second time he moved from here because at that time there was a lot of

9 shooting, incoming fire, also with RPGs, rocket-propelled grenade

10 launcher. He did not -- he was a bit afraid to move out at that time, and

11 then he pulled back because his - what do you call it - telescope, was hit

12 by a bullet, it was smashed, he couldn't see.

13 Q. Okay. But just to make it clear, you should perhaps just mark

14 with your fingers, "2" and "3" -- "3" and "4" now, at the end of the arrow

15 -- of each arrow, "3," the initial, first movement of the tank and "4,"

16 the second one, when it returned and kept on moving.

17 A. Difficult to see.

18 Q. You're right.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it seems to me it's 11.00.

20 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 11.30.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please continue, Mr. Prosecutor.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

25 Q. Mr. Knudsen, let's now return to prisoners with wooden rifles. By

Page 5644

1 the way, was the Danish guy together with you during the attack?

2 A. Yes, he was with me. He was lying -- I guess we got down there.

3 I think there was about two guys in between me and him, and we had a

4 German guy lying in the rear behind us.

5 Q. Okay. So I suggest that you should take black colour, marker,

6 because we have too much green light.

7 I would ask you now to return to the way the prisoners with wooden

8 rifles were moving and the group of soldiers, including you, the other

9 Danish guy, and other foreigners, were moving towards the enemy position.

10 You started doing it with a green light. Would you make it in a black

11 colour from the very beginning.

12 A. I'll explain this.

13 Q. Yes, please.

14 A. The green one, because this is where we went in -- what you call

15 in a row. And when we got out here, prisoners started running over here

16 and got over there. And we were spread out and was lying exactly behind

17 this wall down here. The time, I'm not quite sure. Maybe 15,

18 20 minutes. And I make this arrow because we couldn't get through, and we

19 were to withdraw. Got back. There was a door here; prisoner kicked it

20 out. So we moved in under cover. Some guys gave us covering fire. Moved

21 in, and then returned to the yard here.

22 Q. Let's stop here. Let's return to the prisoners with the wooden

23 rifles. Were they running in front of you?

24 A. Yes, they were running in front of us.

25 Q. What was the distance between you and prisoners, in your

Page 5645

1 estimation approximately?

2 A. Estimating, I would say 8, 8, 10 metres, I guess.

3 Q. In what position were they wearing their rifles?

4 A. Like this, in front of them. They were ordered to do so.

5 Q. And so take the black marker again and show the direction the

6 prisoners moved after the detonation.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. And just explain the situation for the record.

9 A. The situation was that we were supposed to get down here behind

10 the small wall; I guess it's about 1 metre high. And the prisoner was

11 supposed to run -- it was an order they received to keep on moving forward

12 against Muslim lines.

13 Q. Was there any commander on the spot who was controlling your

14 actions and giving further commands while you were moving towards the

15 Bosnian position?

16 A. Not while we were moving, but we stopped moving because, like I

17 said, we got pinned down here. The plan was to get this -- I'll point it

18 out. The bunker system out here that had a machine-gun, and the plan was

19 to get this bunker put out of the game. And after that, we were supposed

20 to move in, you know, ducking down here. But we didn't get the bunker,

21 and this guy in this bunker started shooting all the time, so we couldn't

22 get out. The guy lying on my right side, which I believe was a commander

23 or an officer of some kind, took an RPG, rocket-propelled grenade

24 launcher, and fired, I think, three rounds against the bunker but didn't

25 hit it. And after that, he gave the order we were supposed to move back

Page 5646

1 because we couldn't get through.

2 Q. Do you see -- did you see what happened to the prisoners with the

3 wooden rifles?

4 A. I saw them fall down. Like, I can say I'm not sure they got

5 killed or hit. I can only say three of them got down here outside the

6 wall, at this piece, and you have one guy running over, reached the corner

7 of the building. And we talked about it later because everybody was

8 thinking that the guys was ducking down there as being killed, you know.

9 I would say that we didn't see them get killed. We saw them fall down to

10 the ground. And this guy kept running. He reached over here, and a

11 grenade came down, I can show you where, about this position, so none of

12 us were quite sure if he was dead or alive.

13 Q. Okay. But was the attack successful?

14 A. No, not in any way.

15 Q. Did you reach the Muslim positions?

16 A. No, we did not.

17 Q. So how did you get wounded?

18 A. We went back to behind the building here, gathering up troops from

19 other units. Nobody really knew what was going to happen next. So I

20 guess some guy, this Curly guy, who was with us behind the wall, gave the

21 orders to move back, to get to position 1, which is this position here,

22 and said to be on the lookout because the Muslims may - what do you call

23 it - attack us, so he was going to say it was going to be a mistake.

24 So I got there, and I was just looking a bit outside because the

25 small mirror normally I was looking in was gone, so I put my head out a

Page 5647

1 bit and snipers started shooting, and I tried to look at the position, and

2 then a grenade came down.

3 Q. Would you indicate more or less the place where you were found by

4 the grenade.

5 A. Here, I'll just point it out. Here in the middle, on the outside

6 of the building, we had these sand sacks built up.

7 Q. Were you taken to hospital?

8 A. Yes. I was taken to the hospital in Mostar.

9 Q. How long did you stay in hospital?

10 A. Two days.

11 Q. Do you know if there were any other units involved on that

12 operation on the 17th of September?

13 A. Our units were, and we were told that brigade was being drawn from

14 Livno to support us in the attack, and these guys were supposed to get

15 out -- to move in these two directions.

16 Q. How do you know that?

17 A. Because we were told.

18 Q. Who told you that?

19 A. This Croatian guy, Alan.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

21 You may take away now this exhibit from the ELMO, and I would like

22 the witness to be shown Exhibit P606.

23 THE REGISTRAR: These annotated P14.5 will be given the ID number

24 P14.5/8.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

Page 5648

1 Q. Please have a look -- take a look at the original version of the

2 document.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Is this your document?

5 A. Yes, that's my document.

6 Q. Was it given by the hospital authorities to you?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. Okay. And was it attached to your witness statement during the

9 interview?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. Thank you very much. So, Mr. Knudsen, as follows from your

12 witness statement and previous testimony, after the wounding, you left

13 Mostar for some period of time for Denmark?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When did you return to Mostar?

16 A. It was about a couple of weeks later, a month. I don't remember

17 exactly, but -- you couldn't just stay back in Denmark. I got back to

18 Denmark, but you can't really talk to anybody about it, so the best thing

19 to do was going to go back.

20 Q. Okay. Is it the situation when you returned to Mr. Barbic for the

21 document to get to Mostar?

22 A. Yes. I went -- I went back to Zagreb, and Barbic always told us

23 that if we needed anything, we could always contact him.

24 Q. Did he give you a telephone number?

25 A. Yes, he gave me a telephone number.

Page 5649

1 Q. Okay. So --

2 A. We had his private number. We had the number to the parliament.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. So you again returned to Mostar. Were you

4 allowed to keep on serving in that unit, in Vinko Skrobo unit?

5 A. Yes, I was allowed to. I found out I had been on the payroll as

6 well, even since I was gone, you know.

7 Q. How long did you stay with the Vinko Skrobo unit?

8 A. Not for long. Stayed a couple of weeks. Then we headed out,

9 visited some other foreigners in Tomislavgrad. And then when we were

10 sitting there in Tomislavgrad --

11 Q. Don't hurry, please. Don't hurry.

12 A. Sitting there, a Croatian guy who spoke fluent German, his name

13 was Swapo. The Croats called him Pivo, which means "Beard". He came in

14 and sat with the other foreigners and said he was on a lookout for new

15 guys for a new platoon being built up in Ljubuski and anybody was

16 interested in joining up.

17 Q. Did you join that platoon?

18 A. We joined that platoon, yeah, because he said to us it's going to

19 be -- do not go to front line any more. This is a unit specifically for

20 actions behind lines. And instead of 250 Deutschemarks, we would get

21 500 Deutschemarks, new uniform, new weapon. So it was at that time for us

22 seemed as a pretty good offer.

23 Q. You are saying "we," "us." Whom do you mean?

24 A. I mean the Danish guy who went there with me. We had another

25 German guy, which I do not recall. He just came down with us and checked

Page 5650

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Page 5651

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted].

3 Q. Stop there, Witness.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The name should be redacted from the minutes

5 now.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it should be redacted.

7 A. We came down to this unit and found out that the Canadian guy who

8 was with us in Mostar was there as well. Other German guy which we had

9 been to Orasje with came there as well.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

11 Q. Do you know the name of the unit you joined?

12 A. Yes, Zeljko Bosnjak.

13 Q. Who was in command of that unit?

14 A. It was a guy named Mario Milicevic.

15 Q. Did you know him before?

16 A. No, I didn't.

17 Q. Who was Mario Milicevic's commander?

18 A. You mean upper command?

19 Q. Yes, upper commander.

20 A. We were told it was Tuta. At that point, it was -- everybody

21 would speak open, freely about what was happening, who was in charge.

22 Good example would be we were supposed to have new American

23 uniforms, and we were told that Tuta was in Zagreb at the moment

24 negotiating to get these things down to us because we were not supposed to

25 have Kalashnikov. We were supposed to have M-16s instead, as he felt it

Page 5652

1 was a better weapon.

2 Q. Did you get any document confirming your membership in that unit?

3 A. Yes, we did.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like witness to be shown Exhibit Number

5 P241.1.

6 Q. We will take a look at this Croatian version. Is this your

7 document?

8 A. Yes, that's my document.

9 Q. Who signed it?

10 A. Mario Milicevic.

11 Q. Did you see him sign the document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And now the usher --

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, would you please tell us what this

16 document is about. It has to be in the transcript.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Oh, right. Oh, right.

18 Q. This document issued --

19 JUDGE LIU: Can you put it on the ELMO, if it's not under seal.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It is not under the seal.

21 Q. Please, Witness, perhaps you can inform the Trial Chamber of the

22 date the document was issued.

23 A. It's dated the 5th of November, 1993.

24 Q. Yes. What is this document about?

25 A. We didn't speak the Croatian language, read it at that time. I

Page 5653

1 can see now what it means in English. But at that time, it was like a

2 card that you are part of this unit.

3 Q. And who is the person who signed the document?

4 A. It's Mario Milicevic.

5 Q. Do you see any stamp on the document just next to the signature on

6 the original version?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And now, Usher, I would like Witness Knudsen to

10 be shown Exhibit Number 704. Page 22 of the English version. English

11 version.

12 I'm sorry, but I gave the list of exhibits to be used well

13 beforehand.

14 Q. Page 22 of the English version. Page 22. Is it page 22?

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm sorry, Your Honours.

16 Q. Yes. Did you find it? Please, Mr. Knudsen, take a look at this

17 page --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- the document, and read it. If you see any names that ring

20 bells to you in this list?

21 A. The first two names.

22 Q. Yes, please.

23 A. Mario Milicevic and Davor Rapic.

24 Q. Their military ranks?

25 A. As I can see now, I didn't know their military ranks at that time

Page 5654

1 except that -- but they were a major, a lieutenant.

2 Q. Please go down with this list. Do you see any other names?

3 A. I remember the foreign names.

4 Q. Do you see any other names familiar to you?

5 A. Yes, I see Markos Bardo, Stephan Rays, Alexander Nightline.

6 Q. Don't hurry, please.

7 A. All right. Kai Lutke, which I can't spell, and Tomas Franc-Kunst,

8 [redacted].

9 Q. Stop. Again, we should redact this name. Do you see your own

10 name on this list?

11 A. Yes, number 26, Allan Knudsen.

12 Q. And number 27, without giving the name?

13 A. [redacted].

14 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Knudsen, did you inform Stela, your

15 former commander, that you were about to leave his unit for some different

16 unit?

17 A. At the time, not really. It went like this: We went, like I

18 said, to Tomislavgrad, and in fact we did go directly from Tomislavgrad,

19 because we drove with this guy, Pivo, down to the brigade immediately to

20 check it out. And in a sense, you can say we stayed there and in time to

21 come, we picked up our things in Mostar.

22 Q. Did you learn about the reaction with the, let's say, unauthorized

23 to leave the unit?

24 A. I wouldn't say exactly. Everybody knew Stela at the time. And we

25 talked to a Canadian guy and asked - what would you call it - tell us we

Page 5655

1 should wait out a bit and pick our things up because Stela is not going to

2 like it.

3 Q. Was there any difference between Zeljko Bosnjak unit and Vinko

4 Skrobo unit in terms of organisational -- organisational, let's say,

5 service, military service?

6 A. Yes. We were told from this guy let's - call him Pivo, because it

7 was a name we used about him - this unit was only built for - what you

8 call it - action behind lines. We were not supposed to be frontline

9 service any more, so it was built for this.

10 Q. Do you know if there were any prisoners in this unit?

11 A. Yes. We had prisoners working as well. There was about three or

12 four of them.

13 Q. And what was the attitude of soldiers to these prisoners? How did

14 they treat you?

15 A. I'd say that -- there was a big difference in what we seen in

16 Mostar from this, because like I told before, at Mostar we didn't actually

17 see prisoners get beaten up or treaten [sic] badly in that sense, but here

18 they used a lot of beaten up, torture. Example could be if they were

19 drunk, they could pull these guys out and put a bottle on their head and

20 go maybe 20 metres back and start shooting after the bottles, you know.

21 You want me to continue?

22 Q. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

23 A. And they had these - I'm going to call it - war trials, pull in

24 one or two prisoners, you know, and do -- ask them about they had been a

25 soldier in the BH army, you know, burn them with cigarettes, beat them

Page 5656

1 with bats or chains, accusing them of being hard-core Muslims who wanted a

2 fundamentalist state.

3 Q. Did you participate in any actions undertaken by the Zeljko

4 Bosnjak unit?

5 A. By that, do you mean military actions?

6 Q. Yes, I mean military actions or military-related actions.

7 A. I have to ask you, do you mean against army of BH, or the Serbs,

8 or do you mean generally?

9 Q. I mean generally, first of all.

10 A. We ran into a few problems with Vojna Policija, the military

11 police in Ljubuski. It was, I would say, the only action we have

12 really --

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

14 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have read this witness's

15 statements. This witness is getting ready to commence testimony

16 concerning action with the military police, not the army of BH and not the

17 JNA or the Serb army, but a purely -- an action, if it took place, which

18 was purely outside this indictment. It would not be a war crime, even if

19 it did occur, and it's irrelevant. The probative value is zero, as

20 compared to any prejudicial value to a fair trial, and I object to any

21 line of testimony about any alleged actions against the military police in

22 Ljubuski. They are not the Muslim army, the BH army, nor the Serb army.

23 It's completely irrelevant to this war crimes trial.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, we don't know whether it's a military army or

25 the police unit at this moment. And, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please

Page 5657

1 clear up for us.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I can explain my position.

3 Ljubuski military police station was the place where Mr. Knudsen saw

4 certain persons who were involved in that action. And those persons I

5 indicated in our indictment, so it is relevant to some persons additional.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

7 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that begs the question.

8 The question is: Was this an action against a warring faction, the BH

9 army or the Serb army. And Mr. Prosecutor has not told you that. He

10 skirted the question you asked him, and that is whether it was against the

11 BH army, the Muslim army, or the JNA. If it wasn't either one of those,

12 it's not a war crime.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, would you please be more specific on

15 the questions you are going to ask.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I would like to do that.

17 JUDGE LIU: We would like to know something more about this

18 incident. You may proceed.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

20 Q. Who was in command of those actions in Ljubuski?

21 A. I'm not quite sure I understand what exactly --

22 Q. Who was in command of your unit during your actions in Ljubuski?

23 A. That was Mario Milicevic.

24 Q. Did you see any other people, persons, of high rank in the area?

25 A. I saw in the area but not inside Ljubuski.

Page 5658

1 Q. Yes, Ljubuski, not the MUP station.

2 A. Yes. No, not the MUP. You mean police?

3 Q. Police, yes. Military police, sorry.

4 A. The problem was, as we understood it, we were told that --

5 Milicevic told us himself it was like this mafioso thing about military

6 police in Ljubuski having problems with Tuta. If I may jump a bit,

7 because, you know, it seems like Tuta was in charge. We got that

8 confirmed in a sense elsewhere. Because at the time, in the middle of

9 this, we were sitting at a bar downtown, the Danish guy and me. And

10 suddenly the streets were empty. And this guy who owned the bar, who had

11 nothing to do with the unit or us, said -- didn't know who we were. He

12 didn't know which unit we were in. So he said to us, "You got to get out

13 very quickly now because there's big problems now." And he used the

14 expression "Tuta's army" making big problems at the moment. So we had to

15 get out.

16 Q. Did you see Tuta there?

17 A. Not in Ljubuski, no.

18 Q. Where did you see him?

19 A. Essentially, I have to tell the story. It goes like this: We

20 were in Tomislavgrad and -- the Danish guy and I. And when we came back,

21 it was a few hours. Maybe one hour before that, a guy from our unit was

22 shot and killed in a bar brawl by a guy from military police. And we came

23 back, they sealed off the streets where we were, and I was ordered to go

24 up and get my weapon and my gear because something's going to happen now.

25 I got back to the base, took my rifle and rucksack. And I went down, and

Page 5659

1 I was ordered stand by a checkpoint and block to the military police if

2 they came this way. And so I did.

3 And we asked what happened, and this guy told us a story, you

4 know. And he said the military police were going to come at us, and now

5 they wanted to find this guy who shot one of our guys. And they found him

6 in a basement in a house where he has been hiding, and they took him to

7 interrogation at the base. We knew that because we were not allowed in a

8 few hours to be in the apartment where we lived because they were

9 interrogating the guy in there. And we heard a couple of shots then, and

10 we went in about an hour later and --

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, Mr. President, Your Honours, the witness

13 has gone on now for nearly a page uninterrupted speaking about an action,

14 if anything, which would have been a civil nature for a criminal court in

15 the country of Croatia. And in fact, I have been informed that there were

16 persons brought before the criminal court in Zagreb over this incident.

17 This is not a war crime in any fashion. It has not been alleged as a war

18 crime, and I object strongly to any further testimony concerning this

19 non -- this incident which, if it happened, was not a war crime, has never

20 been alleged to have been a war crime, and certainly does not show

21 anything of any systematic nature concerning the allegations brought and

22 levelled by the Prosecutor's office against Mr. Naletilic. That's my

23 objection. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, we have to know something, some

25 incident, that is related to the charges in the indictment and as well as

Page 5660

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Page 5661

1 to the accused. And you have to lead us towards this direction rather

2 than detract the main aims, the main purpose of the direct examination.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: We do not allege this accident as a war crime.

4 In the beginning of my examination, I just told that my questions will go

5 to some issues including superior authority. And now, I would like to

6 deal with it.

7 JUDGE LIU: If so, you may proceed.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

9 Q. Mr. Knudsen, to be precise, did you see Tuta on that day?

10 A. I saw Tuta later, then, on the day -- I would say the day after.

11 What happened is that the military police was about to take action against

12 us, and we were put in some trucks, all the troops from Milicevic's unit,

13 and told we were supposed to attack all military police station in the

14 area, outskirts of Ljubuski, because he wanted -- like Milicevic told us,

15 Tuta wanted to show the military police that this was his town, not

16 theirs. So we were put in trucks, and we took this police station and

17 moved on. And we saw Tuta on one occasion, only one. But I know that one

18 of the German guys talked to this guy.

19 Q. Did you talk to Tuta?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. And what was he doing?

22 A. He was looking, standing there. He was about -- as we were told,

23 he was supposed to be the leader of the action of all the ATG units.

24 Q. Was he in uniform?

25 A. Yes, he was in uniform.

Page 5662

1 Q. Did he have weapons?

2 A. Yes, he had a Glock.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, that's what I wanted to hear from

4 Mr. Knudsen.

5 Q. And just -- maybe my final question will be: Did you ever see HV

6 units in the area you were making your military service? First of all, in

7 Mostar.

8 A. Yes, I saw military cars from HV in front of Stela's

9 headquarters. I didn't see military personnel that I could link with HV.

10 I could only see the number plate on the cars holding there and saying

11 "HV."

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: That was my final question. Thank you very

13 much.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Any cross-examination? Mr. Par, please.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

17 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Knudsen. I'm counsel Zelimir

19 Par on the Defence team of the accused Vinko Martinovic. Can you hear

20 me?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] The witness did not have his earphones

22 on when I was introducing myself.

23 Q. I'm one of the Defence team of Vinko Martinovic, and my name is

24 Zelimir Par. Let us start with your arrival at the Vinko Skrobo unit.

25 Could we perhaps specify the length of your stay in days. How many days

Page 5663

1 passed since your arrival until your first departure? Is it from the 9th

2 September to the 17th of September, or is that not correct? Could you

3 specify, please.

4 A. Yes. We actually did get our papers on the 9th. I think it was

5 one, two weeks before got the paper. This I can explain by what we were

6 told when I got there. The Croats not really trusted us as foreigners

7 because they had a lot of incidents of foreigners coming to Mostar and ran

8 over to the Muslim side.

9 Q. My question is simpler, really: How many days did you actually

10 spend in that unit?

11 A. With altogether, would you say -- don't exactly remember. It's a

12 lot of years ago.

13 Q. All right. Let's try to deal with the first part of your stay.

14 You mentioned this document dated the 9th of September, by which you were

15 officially admitted into the unit. And you said yesterday, if I remember

16 correctly, that it was signed personally by Vinko Martinovic in your

17 presence. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. I should now like to ask that this document be put on the ELMO.

20 It's the Prosecutor's Exhibit 594, and I would like to ask you to look at

21 that signature again. At the same time, I will let you see another paper

22 where Vinko Martinovic put his signature at my request yesterday, and I

23 would like to ask you to compare these two signatures. I would also like

24 to remind you that an uncontested signature of Vinko Martinovic exists in

25 the detention unit because he, of course, had to sign a number of papers

Page 5664

1 there.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I must object, Your Honour. Mr. Knudsen is a

4 fact witness. He is not an expert witness. It's not within his scope

5 just to compare signatures and to make conclusions, which one is

6 appropriate and which one belongs to a certain person.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, this witness has already told us that

8 your client signed that paper in front of him.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] That is correct, Mr. President.

10 However, I should like to respond to the objection of Mr. Poriouvaev.

11 What we are dealing with here is an obvious difference between

12 signatures, and I don't think one needs to be an expert to tell the

13 difference. That's why I wanted to show it to him. And my intention

14 regarding this witness is to see whether he would perhaps withdraw his

15 statement or, alternatively, explain his claim. If you don't object, I

16 would like to show him the original signature, with your leave.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Par, is your position that your instructions

18 from your client are that he did not sign this document? Are those your

19 instructions? Well, then put it to this witness that "My client's

20 instructions are that he did not sign this document, and that is not his

21 signature." And then we know exactly what the issues are, instead of

22 asking him to look at signatures and then ask him to comment.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Honourable Judge Clark.

24 Q. Witness, my client claims that the signature on the certificate

25 that you marked yesterday -- you identified yesterday as his signature is

Page 5665

1 not his signature. He provided me also with his original signature, with

2 the intention that I show it to you to corroborate his claim. If you

3 don't mind, I would like to let you see this other signature now and ask

4 you a direct question: Do you still continue to maintain that this

5 statement was signed in your presence? I hope that I've formulated my

6 question well this time.

7 A. Yes, I still claim that. I can only say what I saw.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have some doubts about putting signatures in

9 front of this witness. We all know where the issue is, and my suggestion

10 is you may submit this signature as your evidence to this Trial Chamber;

11 let us make our own evaluations, rather than put it to this witness.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honour. I was just

13 looking for a way to introduce this as evidence.

14 JUDGE CLARK: The next question I'd like to ask you, Mr. Par, is:

15 Is it your case, or your client's case, that this witness was never in the

16 Vinko Skrobo unit and that this document is a forgery? Or are you merely

17 saying that the signature doesn't look like your client's signature?

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If you allow me to respond, it is not

19 our position that this witness was not in the unit, and we don't even

20 challenge certain parts pertaining to the period when he was part of the

21 unit, and we do not contest the existence of this document. However, we

22 do wish to point out to certain inaccuracies in his testimony, and I want

23 to get to that during the cross-examination, and I am trying to prevent us

24 from taking his testimony at face value.

25 Q. Having said that, may I ask you to remove this signature, and let

Page 5666

1 us move on.

2 We are still dealing with the first part of your stay with the

3 unit. Your move to this other unit, Zeljko Bosnjak, let us go back to

4 that period. Were there any problems at the time with the foreigners who

5 were members of Vinko Martinovic's unit? You mentioned an incident

6 involving a bomb in an apartment of a foreigner. Did these two things

7 coincide? Was it immediately after this event?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My learned colleague seems to be inaccurate.

10 There was no statement made by Mr. Knudsen in the course of his testimony,

11 about an explosion in any apartment in Mostar.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, you have to make that very clear for

13 us.

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Perhaps Mr. Poriouvaev is right.

15 Perhaps I remember this from the earlier statement that I read. I'll

16 repeat my question.

17 Q. Sir, Mr. Knudsen, in that apartment which you foreigners used

18 while you were members of Vinko Martinovic's unit, did any incident happen

19 involving an explosion? Are you aware of any such incident?

20 A. Yes, I am aware of such an incident.

21 Q. Was it an incident where a child was hurt by a bomb?

22 A. Yes, it was an incident. But a child wasn't hurt; a child was

23 killed there. But then again, not even today, I guess, even the Croats

24 themselves really know what happened.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

Page 5667

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I must object again. It is not

2 within the scope of the examination-in-chief. We are not alleging this

3 incident was a crime. Now we are talking about it, and I don't understand

4 the position of my learned colleague.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well --

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If you allow me, this incident is not

7 what I'm interested in in itself. I want to know the reason why this man

8 moved from Vinko Skrobo to another unit.

9 Q. Was that incident the reason why you were moved to another unit

10 where the foreigners were driven out of the Vinko Skrobo unit, or not?

11 The incident itself is not the subject of my interest.

12 JUDGE LIU: So you have to ask your question directly.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Knudsen, was the reason of your transfer to another unit the

15 fact that foreigners who were members of the ATG Vinko Skrobo had been

16 expelled from that unit after the incident; yes or no?

17 A. No. It's on the -- I would like to state -- say that Mario

18 Milicevic, the commander of Zeljko Bosnjak, came and actually told us that

19 Stela had met with Tuta because he was complaining about Milicevic taking

20 his best soldiers. When I say "best soldiers," I do not mean me. I mean

21 a couple of very professional guys who has been fighting all over the

22 world. And he told us that Stela had been complaining to Tuta about

23 Milicevic taking these guys away from him. Nobody was expelled from the

24 unit. We left there voluntarily.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us now focus on the main event of the

Page 5668

1 17th of September, 1993.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Could photograph which was used by my

3 learned friend from the Prosecution be placed on the ELMO? And I should

4 also like for his permission to add something on the photograph. Or

5 perhaps shall I use a new photograph for the purposes of my markings?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you want to -- want this witness to mark on

7 that photograph, we had better use a clean copy.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I will use the photograph number 14.5,

9 since this is the only one I have.

10 Q. You are familiar with this photograph, Witness? It is the same

11 photograph you looked at a moment ago. What I am interested in here is

12 the time that you went in that action up until the moment you were

13 wounded. Please pay attention to the building which is commonly referred

14 to as the Health Centre. You know which building I'm referring to?

15 A. [Microphone not activated]

16 Q. Could you mark on that building where the door was, that is, the

17 exit facing the Bulevar?

18 A. That would be approximately ...

19 Q. Was there any other exit apart from this door, and where was it?

20 Where there any other exits or entrances on the building?

21 A. You mean in front of the Bulevar?

22 Q. Or any other side.

23 A. What do you mean by "side"? Excuse me.

24 Q. You told us that you had left the building through a door. Could

25 you mark the door through which you left the building when you went to the

Page 5669

1 section?

2 A. What you mean is that when we charged out and we attacked, right,

3 you mean the door we came out and running around and got in again?

4 Q. Yes. Is it the same door as the one you just marked or some other

5 door?

6 A. This is -- we came from behind here. I wouldn't actually call it

7 a door. I would call it a big hole. And we went around here -- do you

8 want me to draw it for you? Because it's on the back side.

9 Q. What I'm trying to establish is the following: We can now see the

10 route that you took out. Now, what was the reason, what was the logic

11 behind your leaving the building at the back side and then coming to this

12 front door, where you would have been exposed to fire? Why didn't you get

13 out through the main door? Why didn't you reach this point that you

14 wanted to reach by leaving the building through the main door?

15 A. Excuse me. But for me, I think it's a bit weird question because

16 I'm a private soldier. If you are about to go on an attack, you don't go

17 to your superior asking this officer, "Well, why don't we take this door

18 or this window, instead of going around here?" I mean, for me, I guess,

19 you know, everybody was lining up behind. When you line up behind the

20 building, you're not exposed to fire. I mean, there was a lot of guys

21 here. Exactly how many, I can't tell you. But there was a lot of

22 soldiers here.

23 And if you had to put all these soldiers in one little room or --

24 another thing about it is you got fences as well. This door, there was a

25 fence nearby it, if I remember. There was a lot of shooting all the

Page 5670

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Page 5671

1 time. This place here, there was not really sandbags built up anywhere,

2 because it was not a bunker. It was not one of our normal positions.

3 Q. And in front of this door, the one that you marked, was there a

4 wall behind which you could take shelter? Was there some kind of

5 protection in the form of a wall there?

6 A. Yes, there was a small wall. I would say approximately about

7 1 metre or so, as I recall it.

8 Q. Very well. I'm not going to dwell on this door any longer.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, let the witness show us where the door or the

10 hole is on this picture. We are still not clear where it is.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. You have heard the question of His Honour. Could you answer the

13 question, please.

14 A. I'll show you. The door would be around here. Maybe if I take

15 this pen here, it's a bit easier to see.

16 Q. And could you also tell us what you have just marked. Could you

17 describe for us where you were, where you went, where the door was. If I

18 may lead you, at one point in time, you were inside this building; is that

19 correct?

20 A. [Microphone not activated]

21 Q. Afterwards, what happened?

22 A. Afterwards, we were lined here at the wall, and we were ordered to

23 pull back. At that time, before the order came, the door was closed. I

24 think it was like a wooden door. And I saw a prisoner kick the door out

25 for us, and people started crawling again because you have these steps in

Page 5672

1 front of you. You got up and you ran in. I don't know exactly how many

2 guys were in front of me going in.

3 I remember the Danish guy standing a bit behind the wall and

4 giving cover fire. And he was standing there for a long time. I got up,

5 I got in, I pulled him away and said, "I'm taking over. You go in now."

6 At that point, there was three, I think, if I recall, three Croats left,

7 and these guys came in, and we ran around and got into the yard again.

8 Q. Let us not confuse the building and the event. Could you mark

9 with numbers "1" and "2" the two doors respectively, the first one with

10 number "1" and the second one with number "2."

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Can we, therefore, conclude that before the attack, you were

13 inside the building? After that, you left the building through door

14 number 2, you took the route that you marked; and then through door number

15 1, you went back into the building? You went back inside. Is that

16 correct?

17 A. I went through the door and through the building and out in the

18 yard and after that, went back inside the building and out on position 1.

19 Q. Very well. The objective of my question was to clarify whether

20 you could get into the building and leave the building through door

21 number 1.

22 Was it also possible to use door number 1 to get in and out of the

23 building; yes or no?

24 A. During the attack? After the attack, possibly, yes. During the

25 attack, no.

Page 5673

1 Q. Why not? Because of the fire or for some other reason?

2 A. I believe because of the fire. And also because when we attacked,

3 you would dart out like a soldier behind these walls. That means if you

4 came from inside the building, we would be there. But I do not understand

5 exactly what do you mean? Do you refer to other Croatian soldiers, or do

6 you refer to prisoners in your question?

7 Q. My question concerns the door, the exit. Was it possible to get

8 in and out of the building through that door? Was it possible for anyone

9 to use that door, anyone who wanted to go towards the Bulevar?

10 Was it possible for such an individual to use door number 1 the

11 same as it was possible to use door number 2? Technically speaking, could

12 that door be used to get out to the Bulevar? That is the only purpose of

13 my question.

14 A. Yes, after the attack. Not under the attack.

15 Q. Good. Let us try and finish with the door and move on to

16 something else.

17 Speaking of the detainees, the prisoners, I'm referring to the

18 moment that you first happened to be with the prisoners inside the

19 building. You said that it was at that time that you saw them holding

20 what you refer to as wooden rifles. Is that correct?

21 A. That is correct, yes.

22 Q. You also stated that you had seen, on the previous day, some

23 individuals making those wooden rifles. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, the day before. It was the same prisoners.

25 Q. The same prisoners. So you personally saw the same individuals

Page 5674

1 the day before and the following day? You personally saw them, and you

2 know that they were the same individuals?

3 A. Yes, because two things: We were told directly that these

4 prisoners were brought in, and another thing, that they thought it was

5 very funny.

6 Q. Mr. Knudsen --

7 A. No, please.

8 Q. My question is whether you saw them.

9 JUDGE LIU: Let the witness answer the question. Yes.

10 A. Yes. What I mean is that he told us that they had actually bring

11 these guys in especially doing this, and they thought it was funny that

12 when you go out, that you made your own wooden rifle. All that -- to

13 answer your question, I was not the only one seeing this. I had this

14 [redacted]. We passed these

15 prisoners, I would say, within a metre, going past them, nearby Stela's

16 house.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, you said you were not the only one who saw them, but

19 you're the only one testifying now. I am talking about what you

20 personally saw. You can, of course, tell us what you heard from others.

21 However, I want to establish your personal knowledge about the event. So

22 once again, did you personally see that those were the same individuals,

23 the people who were making the rifles on the previous day and those who

24 were carrying them on the following day? Is that your testimony?

25 A. Yes, that is my testimony.

Page 5675

1 Q. Let us now focus our attention to those wooden rifles. You told

2 us that they looked like wooden rifles. Were there some kind of wooden

3 planks which were the same size of rifles, or did they actually have a

4 shape of a rifle? Could you describe for us the shape of those wooden

5 objects, please.

6 A. Yes. It was the object of Kalashnikov; they were supposed to look

7 like. At the time we passed them at the base, I guess they had been

8 working at it for sometime because it was not just a piece of wood at the

9 time. It had some of the shape.

10 Q. Could those objects be used for any other purpose? For example,

11 to carry boxes of ammunition? Were there any similar planks or similar

12 objects that were used for transport of ammunition boxes by detainees?

13 A. The only ammunition boxes we saw was the boxes we had at the

14 frontline. We had cases of ammunition stacked up. If you mean if I saw

15 any of these nearby the prisoners, no, I did not. I did not pay attention

16 to things like that.

17 Q. What was the colour of the wood?

18 A. Brown.

19 Q. Natural brown, or was it painted brown?

20 A. Natural brown, raw wood.

21 Q. Those, as you call them, wooden rifles, did they have any straps

22 so that they could be carried on the shoulder, or was it just a piece of

23 wood with nothing else on it?

24 A. I can only remember one of them had - what do you call - not --

25 just a piece of strap, piece of line, or what you going to call it, tied

Page 5676

1 around.

2 Q. So we have described the rifles. Let us turn to the detainees.

3 Were they together with you? Were they sitting down with you? What were

4 you doing while you were waiting?

5 A. You mean at the attack?

6 Q. Just before you left the building, as you were waiting inside the

7 building.

8 A. Yeah. At the time the four prisoners was with us inside the

9 building, the foreigners, and a few Croatian guys, yes.

10 Q. What was the attitude towards the prisoners? Were they afraid?

11 Were they guarded? Were they under any orders?

12 A. You're asking me if they were afraid?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Of course they were afraid. Who wouldn't be? Excuse me. If

15 they'd been beaten or anything, no, nobody was really paying attention. A

16 Croat guy instructed them, telling them, "Carry the rifle like this," and

17 gave them a jacket, military jacket, but nobody was teasing them, nobody

18 was beating them or anything like that, no. But, yes, they were afraid,

19 very afraid.

20 Q. What about you and other soldiers? Were you also afraid of the

21 oncoming attack, or were you in a somewhat different situation?

22 A. Of course you're afraid. I mean, you have to go out in open fire,

23 and who wouldn't be? Doesn't matter if you have a wooden gun or if you

24 have a rifle.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could witness speak into microphone, please?

Page 5677

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You say that there was a Croat who was issuing some kind of

3 instructions to those prisoners. When you able to understand the

4 instructions? And in what language were they given?

5 A. No. The language was Croatian language, but when you ask a guy --

6 or tell a guy, "Stand up," and take the rifle from him and put it like

7 this, you know, I would say that the way you're doing it says the meaning

8 of the words.

9 Q. Can we therefore conclude that you were able to understand those

10 instructions on the basis of the motions of this individual and not on the

11 basis of his actual words?

12 A. Yes, I would say that.

13 Q. So what can you tell us now, that this whole action is behind --

14 behind you? What was really the role of those prisoners in that action,

15 the prisoners who were carrying those so-called wooden rifles? And if I

16 may add, I'm not referring to the actual plans and agreements. You were

17 actually in that action. You participated in that action. What can you

18 tell us about their actual role in the action? Because they were running

19 ahead of you. They were in front of you. What was the purpose of their

20 participation in the action?

21 A. Their purpose was to form a shield for the Croatian troops coming

22 from behind.

23 Q. Could you explain the shield to us? What was it designed to

24 protect? Who did it protect? What was the purpose of that shield? Who

25 were they protecting, actually? From whom?

Page 5678

1 A. From the Muslim. What I mean by "shield" is that these guys were

2 supposed to take -- if a lot of fire was coming in, Croatian soldiers

3 would have time to duck down or get in cover, and these guys would take

4 the first fire incoming, or maybe keep the Muslims from shooting at their

5 own people.

6 Q. Mr. Knudsen, before I asked you the question, I said that I was

7 not interested in the real plan and objective of their presence there. I

8 want to ask what it was that they were supposed to protect. Did they

9 actually shield you? Did they actually protect you from the Muslims?

10 A. I wouldn't say that. But you asked -- you say this is -- I can't

11 talk about the plan, but here you got it stuck together because this was

12 the plan compared to also what they were doing. It's the same thing.

13 And I must have to say one thing: We had our own orders, I mean,

14 we got from Alan, because the other guys was a bit upset about this. We

15 talked about it and said we don't like it. A lot of guys didn't. But we

16 got the same order. We asked Alan why we have to do this, and he said,

17 "The Muslims can do the same to you. And if Croat prisoners come against

18 you, you shoot them as well."

19 Q. Mr. Knudsen, it is not my intention to upset you with my

20 questions, and I'm not trying to say that you're not telling the truth.

21 I'm merely trying to establish what really happened and to make a

22 distinction from the things that actually happened and what was planned to

23 happen. So I am trying to make myself clear. And please understand my

24 position and the purpose of my question.

25 What was it that they actually achieved for you? What did they do

Page 5679

1 for you in that particular action? And did you find yourself in the same

2 situation while you were running to that other location? Were you

3 actually in the same situation as they were, except for the fact that you

4 had a rifle, of course?

5 A. I would say it would be the same, but this is not to offend you.

6 I know your position as well. But you're asking me to tell you what

7 happened. You asked me. I can't tell you about the plan. In fact, you

8 asked me, sir, what did these guys feel, what did they do. When you run

9 forward, as we did - a lot of guys did - I can't be on the lookout what

10 are these guys doing for us? Because everything, if you're attacking or

11 under attack, it goes rapidly strong. It's very, very fast. And I admit

12 it's not something that when I sat down afterwards when we got back, I was

13 not thinking about what does these prisoners actually do for us or what

14 did they do for us. Because I can't tell you. I can only tell that the

15 plan was to let them go in as a shield for us, and that's it. That's

16 basically what happened and what they were supposed to do. If they did

17 it, I can't tell you if it helped us in any way because, frankly, I do not

18 know.

19 Q. I fully understand you, Mr. Knudsen. And that is exactly what I'm

20 trying to establish, that -- what you were able to see actually on the

21 ground at that moment, and you have answered my question.

22 However, your answer triggers two additional questions. One will

23 concern your knowledge about this plan, and the other concerns what you

24 were actually able to see what happened to them.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] However, in view of the hour, I should

Page 5680

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Page 5681

1 perhaps propose a break at this moment, and then we can continue with this

2 topic after the break.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 2.30 this afternoon.

4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.

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Page 5682

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par, please continue.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Knudsen, before we continue discussing the events of the 18th

5 September [Realtime transcript read in error "December"] 1993, I would

6 like you to tell us a little bit more about this person named Alan who

7 interpreted for you. My question is: Was he the only person in the unit

8 who contacted with you, relaying orders, instructions and so on?

9 A. Yes. He was basically the one we talked to, as he was the only

10 one, to our knowledge, that spoke --

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor?

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There is a mistake in the minutes, "the events of

13 the 18th of December, 1993."

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Page 62, line 19.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it should be "September."

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, "18th of September."

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you.

20 Q. So the date is the 18th of September, 1993.

21 Mr. Knudsen, do you know perhaps the last name of this Alan?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could it be Alan Nargilic? Does that ring a bell?

24 N-a-r-g-i-l-i-c, Nargilic?

25 A. Yes, I only remember the first name: Alan. But I'm not sure if

Page 5683

1 this is the guy.

2 Q. Could you describe his appearance? How old was he?

3 A. I'd say he was about 28, 29 years of age. Slim guy. Most of the

4 time wearing a baseball cap. Missing teeth, front. The few teeth left

5 was black teeth, basically the thing I remember about them.

6 Q. I would now like to go back to this event of the 17th of

7 September, 1993. I would like to deal with it through a document which

8 refers to that incident and, please, look at the marked sections of this

9 document and tell us if you remember these instructions, since you were

10 involved in the operation, as you said.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have here Prosecution's

12 Exhibit 568. I have prepared copies for everyone in the courtroom, both

13 in the English and the Croatian versions, for the reason that there is a

14 difference on page 2 between the versions due to a technical error. I

15 don't have much to do with this document, just a couple of things.

16 Q. Witness, if you have this document in front of you, please take

17 the English version and look at the underlined part on page 1 and read it

18 so that we can establish who is the author, what is the date of the

19 document, and its title. Will you read it or will I? Whichever you

20 prefer.

21 A. I can do it, if you want. It says: "SIS, Security and

22 Information Service Centre, Mostar, military secret, strictly

23 confidential." Do you want the exhibit number as well?

24 Q. The date?

25 A. Date, yeah, the date is 22 of September, 1993, "Report A" --

Page 5684

1 Q. And the title, please.

2 A. Yes. "Report A, subject, offensive operation by the HVO, Croatian

3 Defence Council forces on 17 September 1993, Mostar Defence Sector."

4 Q. Now, if I may ask you to turn to page 2, you will see two

5 sentences underlined.

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] And for the record, I have to explain

7 that the Croatian and English versions differ in this underlined sentence

8 in the following way: In the Croatian version, you can see the name of

9 the person who was the commander, whereas in the English version you

10 cannot see this, for technical reason, namely the copy is illegible. But

11 as we have both versions in front of us all, there will be no problem I

12 think. I will read both the first and the second sentence, and then I

13 will put my question.

14 Q. Sir, on page 2, in this underlined part of the first sentence, it

15 says: "Command in the area from the high school to whom was offered to

16 Vinko Martinovic, Stela, which he refused."

17 In the second underlined sentence, it reads: "After that, Mario

18 Milicevic, Baja, was appointed commander, and he accepted this duty

19 without hesitation."

20 THE INTERPRETER: Can we have this document on the ELMO. We don't

21 have it.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I have only two questions regarding this part. Mr. Knudsen, do

24 you know who was the commander of that operation on the Bulevar of the

25 17th of September, 1993?

Page 5685

1 A. What do you mean by in command? In command in the action, or do

2 you mean in command overall of the units?

3 Q. Let me be more specific. Do you know who commanded, who was the

4 commander in the area from the high school, to whom?

5 A. I'm only aware of who was the commander in our section, means the

6 medical centre, and it was Stela Martinovic.

7 Q. And you have no knowledge as to who the commander was in other

8 units to your left-hand and your right-hand side?

9 A. I can only tell what we have been told, that a group from Livno

10 was supposed to take part on the second -- left side.

11 Q. Here in this document, we see a reference to a Marko Milicevic,

12 Baja. Is that the same person that you met up there, or is it a different

13 person? Our case, our position is that it was a different person.

14 Do you know that it was the same man, this Mario Milicevic, Baja,

15 as the man whose unit you belonged?

16 A. I only saw Mario Milicevic in Ljubuski. I haven't seen him or any

17 knowledge he has been to Mostar.

18 Q. Thank you. We have another sentence on page 3. If you can turn

19 to that page. The sentence reads in the English version: "On the other

20 side, HVO units had 43 slightly and seriously wounded members and 7 killed

21 on the 17th of September, 1993. This data corresponds to the written

22 document of the sector for health of the defence department of the HR HB"

23 [As interpreted].

24 My question is: As far as your personal observations allow you to

25 tell, is this information correct, 43 wounded and 7 killed?

Page 5686

1 A. Not to my knowledge. What I mean is don't go around counting

2 bodies. I went to the hospital, and we had a Croatian guy which I saw

3 only occasionally but was not aware he was a part of a unit. And he came

4 to hospital and talked to me and saying, "I know guys got killed," 200

5 being wounded. So this is where from I got the information.

6 Q. Right. My question was: You cannot maintain either way, based on

7 your personal knowledge, because you haven't seen any of it?

8 A. No, that is correct.

9 Q. Tell me briefly, what was the time when you were wounded

10 approximately?

11 A. It is difficult to say. I mean, the attack went off, as I

12 remember, about 1100 hours, and it could have lasted from anything between

13 15 minutes to an hour. So probably say about 12.00. Maybe, I'm not

14 exactly quite sure.

15 Q. Did you ever find out what happened to those prisoners that we

16 discussed today who carried those wooden rifles? Have you ever learned

17 what happened to them?

18 A. Not exactly. I mean, rumours go around. We came back in, and

19 people, of course most of the Croats, were talking about it. And some

20 Croats told us most of them had been killed, you know, but it's hard to

21 tell because it was in the front of it. You don't go out there. You

22 don't go out and check.

23 Q. I'll try to rephrase this and be more specific. Did, perhaps, the

24 Prosecutor or anyone from the Prosecutor's team tell you during your

25 preparation that these prisoners survived or crossed over to the other

Page 5687

1 side, that maybe one or more of them will come here to testify? Did you

2 receive any such information from the Prosecutor's office in the course of

3 these past few days?

4 A. It was not said directly, as I remember.

5 Q. All right. Could you be -- could you specify what you mean by

6 "directly"? Did anyone tell you anything indirectly? Has any such

7 information been passed to you in any way from the Office of the

8 Prosecutor?

9 A. No. He just -- it was put in a way that the - what do you call

10 it - if I was sure that all the prisoners were dead. So I said I don't --

11 I don't know.

12 Q. Fine. While we are discussing these contacts with various

13 investigations, authorities, and the Office of the Prosecutor, could we

14 agree that you gave your first statement to the investigators of the OTP

15 on the 14th and the 15th of April?

16 A. [Microphone not activated]

17 Q. At the time when you gave that statement, were you still on the

18 payroll of HVO?

19 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry, we missed the answer of the witness for

20 your last question. Would you please repeat?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Sir, my last -- my previous question

22 was: Did the witness receive any information to the effect that these

23 prisoners may have survived? Did he receive it from the OTP? After that,

24 I asked him what he meant by "directly" and "indirectly," and the witness

25 answered that it was in the form of a question.

Page 5688

1 JUDGE LIU: No. The question is: "Could we agree that you gave

2 your first statement to the investigators of the OTP on the 14th and the

3 15th of April?" Then we missed the answer by this witness.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

5 Q. I apologise.

6 A. The answer was [Microphone not activated] -- one more time. The

7 answer was, like, it was -- was it possible that they survived? I don't

8 know.

9 Q. I created this confusion, so I'll try to resolve it. I'm asking

10 you: Can we agree that your first statement given to the investigators of

11 the OTP was given on the 14th and the 15th of April, 1997?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. At that time, when you gave that statement, were you still a

14 soldier of the HVO, or were you still in some way on record as belonging

15 to the HVO, or were you perhaps still on their payroll?

16 A. I was not on the payroll. We went home, so -- I've been home for

17 a couple of years at that time.

18 Q. I'm asking you this because it says -- it is indicated on that

19 statement that your profession is HVO mercenary. So again, to clarify

20 this, in 1997, are you saying you had stopped all contact with the HVO and

21 you were not on their payroll? You were not their mercenary?

22 A. Yes, I stopped all contact.

23 Q. Can you then tell me how it came about that contact was

24 established between you and the investigators of the Prosecutor's Office?

25 What were the circumstances? Could you describe them? How were you

Page 5689

1 selected to give that statement?

2 A. I came home, and I think it was in -- not quite sure it was in

3 1995 or was 1996. I think it was UN bureau in Copenhagen. I'm not quite

4 sure. It's a long time ago. Because I gave this a lot of thought, and I

5 contacted these people, and we talked about it. And I think actually I

6 didn't hear anything, you know, for a year or so, and suddenly one day I

7 came home and there was a note on my door: Police want to talk to me.

8 Q. All right. Tell me, please, before that, did you have any

9 discussions with the military police or military authorities in Mostar, in

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina, or in Herzegovina, on the subject which is today

11 the subject of your testimony?

12 A. At what time? I mean when we were down there or --

13 Q. Precisely at the time when you gave that first statement, in

14 1997. Before you contacted the OTP, did you have any contacts with the

15 military police or the military authorities of Croatia or Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina just before you gave that first statement in early 1997?

17 A. No, I did not.

18 Q. At that time - again, I'm speaking about early 1997 - did you have

19 any contact with the Agency for Investigations and Documentation? And

20 that is the official name of the Muslim secret service, known under the

21 acronym AID. Did you have any contact with them, especially in that

22 period?

23 A. No, I did not. Excuse me as I'm laughing, but it's a bit weird

24 question for me, you know.

25 Q. There are weird questions; there are all kinds of questions.

Page 5690

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Page 5691

1 Let's go on. Do you know that in February 1997, Vinko Martinovic

2 was in prison in Zagreb? Have you ever heard anything about that?

3 Because at the time, it was publicly known, it was common knowledge. It

4 was reported by the media. Did you hear anything about that at the time?

5 A. No, I did not. I mean, if it has been on television in Denmark,

6 it has been on the evening news for two minutes. What I mean is even

7 today, like, when Krstic was in court and got 45 years, I think it was

8 about 1 minute, 2 minutes on Danish television, and we haven't heard

9 anything since. So it's not a big deal on Danish television.

10 Q. Thank you. Are you still in some sort of contact with foreigners

11 who are soldiers of fortune? Do you still keep in touch with them?

12 A. I do not keep in touch with them. This Danish guy is living in a

13 completely part of different -- it was a couple of years ago that I had

14 contact with him, except if you look back, I guess two weeks ago he phoned

15 me up because he needed some photos. He had lost his photos from down

16 there and asked me if I could send him some, the negatives. So I didn't

17 do it, you know, I had a lot of other things to do, you know. So I

18 actually don't speak to anyone.

19 Q. Just another brief question about your last contact with this

20 other Danish soldier. During that last conversation, was any reference

21 made to anyone's testimony, anyone testifying before this Court, anything

22 related to the indictment against Stela at all?

23 A. Not to my knowledge. The only thing we knew was about '97, '98

24 when I was questioned in Denmark at -- when Ralf, a German guy, was down

25 here. I don't know why.

Page 5692

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Knudsen.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have no more

3 questions.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Yes, Mr. Meek, cross-examination.

6 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Knudsen. How are you?

9 A. I'm all right, I guess.

10 Q. Could be better; could be worse, I suppose.

11 A. You could put it like that.

12 Q. You just mentioned, and at least the record showed on page 70,

13 line 23, that a Spanish guy had phoned you. That's what it showed on the

14 record, but I believe -- did you mean Danish?

15 A. I mean Danish guy, yeah.

16 Q. You also have a friend in Denmark, do you not, who is a refugee

17 from Mostar? Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct, yes.

19 Q. Did you meet him in Mostar?

20 A. No. To my knowledge, he was out of Mostar before I got there, I

21 think.

22 Q. Can you tell this Trial Chamber and tell me, please, what day

23 approximately when you returned home to Denmark?

24 A. You mean for good?

25 Q. Yes, for good.

Page 5693

1 A. As I recall it, it was about December, I think, in '94. I went

2 with the Danish guy, because we used our military papers to go to

3 Slovenia, and from Slovenia, we walked.

4 Q. You travelled back with your Danish friend?

5 A. Yeah.

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]. And I think we met about - I'm not quite sure - three weeks or a

10 month later, [redacted]

11 [redacted].

12 MR. MEEK: Out of an abundance of caution, Mr. President, I ask

13 you for your advice. Would the name of that town need to be redacted?

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm not sure about that.

15 MR. MEEK: Well, it was a protected witness. We have not

16 mentioned his name, but now the city he is from has been mentioned. And

17 out of an abundance of caution, I would only ask the Trial Chamber's

18 guidance on whether that should be stricken or redacted.

19 JUDGE LIU: What's the suggestion from the Prosecution side?

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think that it will not do us any harm if you

21 redact it, because our other witness is protected.

22 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, what city was mentioned? What I mean is,

23 [redacted], but that's an island. That's not a

24 city.

25 MR. MEEK: [redacted]

Page 5694

1 THE WITNESS: [redacted].

2 MR. MEEK: I'm only trying to be cautious, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE LIU: Me, too.

4 MR. MEEK: I'm in your hands.

5 JUDGE LIU: For the precautionary reasons, we'll have it redacted

6 from the transcript.

7 MR. MEEK:

8 Q. What's -- and you live in a city of Odense, is that correct, in

9 Denmark?

10 A. I lived there in a previous time. I do not live in Odense any

11 more.

12 Q. The refugee -- the Muslim refugee from Mostar that you just

13 mentioned that lives in Denmark, do you keep in close contact with him?

14 A. Yes, you can say that because he's working in my company at the

15 moment.

16 Q. How long has he worked for you, Mr. Knudsen?

17 A. It's about a month now.

18 Q. Approximately what month and year did you meet him in Denmark,

19 since you did not meet him in Mostar?

20 A. I think it was in -- I'm not quite sure. 1997 -- 1997, I guess.

21 Q. Would you characterise your relationship with him as being a good

22 friend?

23 A. Depends on what you lay on the word "friend."

24 Q. Do you socialise with him?

25 A. As a buddy every day and have beer and that?

Page 5695

1 Q. Not every day but often?

2 A. Not very often, no.

3 Q. But you see him daily now?

4 A. I see him daily now, yeah.

5 Q. And you used to see him regularly?

6 A. I'd say in 1997 and 1998, yes, I saw this guy regularly, but

7 otherwise I have a lot to do, so I took a break.

8 Q. Of course, it's a fair statement, isn't it, Mr. Knudsen, that he

9 told you his story about being expelled from his home in Mostar, did he

10 not?

11 A. I think so, yeah. I'm not quite sure of the question exactly.

12 Q. Well, did he explain to you the circumstances of him -- of he and

13 his family being expelled from Mostar?

14 A. Yes, he told me that, yeah.

15 Q. And I take it it would also be a fair statement that you felt for

16 him, did you not, the way that it happened?

17 A. I wouldn't say that, no.

18 Q. You had no feelings about this?

19 A. You hear a lot of stories all the time. I mean, you seen a lot of

20 things going on everywhere, you know. And what I mean is, I think a lot

21 of people tried a lot worse things. So if you mean is this heart-breaking

22 story, no, I wouldn't say that. I listened to it, you know, and I put it,

23 like everybody does, in the memory, catalogue it, you know, and stuff it

24 there. But it's not a thing that's going to make me lie awake every

25 night.

Page 5696

1 Q. Was it about this time that he was telling you his heart-wrenching

2 story or his heart-breaking story that you decided to call the authorities

3 and offer your services as a witness in the Tribunal?

4 MR. MEEK: I'll rephrase the question. I'll rephrase the

5 question. Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. MEEK: I'll rephrase.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There is more to that. First of all, it was not

9 encompassed by the examination-in-chief. Secondly, secondly, if talking

10 about that guy, and Knudsen witness statement given -- his first

11 statement, he has never mentioned in his testimony today that it was that

12 guy who influenced somehow on him to give his witness statement.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek, can you skip this question?

14 MR. MEEK: Well, Mr. President, while it may not have been

15 mentioned in direct, it certainly goes to this witness's motive to testify

16 and his motive as to truth and veracity.

17 JUDGE LIU: Do you have some evidence showing that somebody

18 encouraged this person to do -- to come here, come to The Hague, to do the

19 live testimony?

20 MR. MEEK: That was my next question, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: No, no. I'm asking whether you have some evidence

22 about that?

23 MR. MEEK: I have some evidence from the statements that this

24 witness gave to the OTP about a friend who was Muslim and he was expelled

25 from his home in Mostar and he now lives in Denmark. The witness has

Page 5697

1 testified he's a friend. He now works for him. And I only have one

2 question for this witness on this -- along this line.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

4 MR. MEEK:

5 Q. Did your friendship with this Muslim from Mostar encourage you in

6 any fashion to come forward to the authorities and volunteer your services

7 and knowledge that you gained while you were in Bosnia in 1993?

8 A. We can agree that I just told you I met this guy in 1997;

9 correct? I also think I told you already, I think it was 1995 or 1996 I

10 phoned, myself, the UN office. So that -- excuse me for saying it, but it

11 should be pretty obvious: How can this guy have influence on me when I

12 already a year ago phoned the bureau?

13 Q. Mr. Knudsen, I would ask you now to give me the name of this

14 individual.

15 MR. MEEK: And if Mr. President and the Trial Chamber believes it

16 should be in private session, then I believe we should go to private

17 session. But he's not a witness, so --

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I don't think that it is relevant to the case and

19 the interview or this -- that person will be relevant to the case.

20 JUDGE LIU: It's very important to you, Mr. Meek?

21 MR. MEEK: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Because you promised me that you would just ask one

23 question along this line.

24 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, that's true. I asked that question,

25 and he said that that was not the reason, because he had previously phoned

Page 5698

1 the United Nations. And my next question was different, and that is the

2 name of his friend who now works for him.

3 JUDGE LIU: Why do you need to hear this name?

4 MR. MEEK: So that we can investigate this, Your Honour. It's not

5 in any statement, so this is the only chance I would have to ask this

6 witness.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll go to the private session. You may ask

9 this question.

10 [Private session]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 (redacted)

Page 5699

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 MR. MEEK:

4 Q. You just recently, a few moments ago, testified that you hear a

5 lot of stories, you've heard a lot of stories. And Mr. Par asked you a

6 question about the number of people on the Croat side who were either

7 injured or killed in the action on the 17th of September, 1993. Do you

8 recall that questioning?

9 A. Yes, I recall that.

10 Q. And I believe that you answered that "Rumours go around, and a lot

11 of Croats were talking about it, but it's hard to tell what really

12 happened." Isn't that what you testified to, Mr. Knudsen?

13 A. Are you talking about the specific number of killed?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Because I didn't think I said that. I said a Croat guy came to

16 the hospital and talked to me when I was lying there, and he talked about

17 and said a lot of Croats got killed, about a hundred guys, people are

18 going to be coming in, you know. And I tell you it was a guy I'd seen a

19 few times before, and I was not sure he was a part of the unit.

20 Q. Mr. Par asked you: "Did you ever find out what happened to those

21 prisoners that were -- that you had discussed today that had these wooden

22 rifles?" To that question, you answered: "Not exactly. I mean, rumours

23 go around." Do you recall that answer that you gave to Mr. Par?

24 A. To that question, I replied not quite sure what happened to them

25 because these guys out there, you cannot go out there.

Page 5700

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Page 5701

1 Q. I'm looking at the transcript, Mr. Knudsen, and it's on page 67,

2 starting at line 6, your answer is: "Not exactly. I mean, rumours go

3 around."

4 A. Yes. And I was talking --

5 Q. "We came back in and people -- of course, all the Croats were

6 talking about it." And then you go on.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I'm asking you, do you recall that answer?

9 A. I recall that answer, yeah.

10 Q. Was this the first war that you were involved in?

11 A. Excuse me, one more time?

12 Q. Is this the first war that you were involved in?

13 A. I could say that.

14 Q. And I presume it will be the last, if you have anything to do with

15 it?

16 A. Yeah, the last for sure.

17 Q. And I understand from your testimony that you basically looked in

18 a magazine called "Soldier of Fortune" and you saw the ad for soldiers in

19 Croatia or in the former Yugoslavia. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, the former Yugoslavia. Specify, Tomislavgrad.

21 Q. At that time, were you employed in any fashion?

22 A. What do you mean "fashion"?

23 Q. Were you working anywhere?

24 A. Yeah. I was working in what would be called a carpenter shop.

25 Q. Did you have a family, children?

Page 5702

1 A. I don't have children. I still don't have children.

2 Q. Are you married?

3 A. I'm not married. Living with one.

4 Q. At the time in '93 when you up and moved to Zagreb and then took

5 the train to Split and worked your way around, did you leave any family

6 members in Denmark?

7 A. My mom and my brother.

8 Q. I take it that you did this because you had a desire to fight; is

9 that correct, or not?

10 A. In a sense it's correct. In a sense, it's not correct.

11 Q. What sense is it not correct?

12 A. The sense is if I really wanted to fight, I could have been a

13 soldier many years ago. In fact, you know, I got into session with the

14 Danish army. You know, I turned it down because I was not really into

15 being a soldier. This part was specifically about watching television

16 every day and seeing a lot of guys get killed because of religion, you

17 know. And I really felt nobody was doing anything. And you know, you

18 read this "Soldier of Fortune," and you got a direct travel description.

19 So suddenly, it was pretty easy to go then.

20 Q. So you went?

21 A. I would put it like this: You came down as an idealist.

22 Q. And your ideals changed during the year of 1993, didn't they?

23 A. I have been waiting for that question. I mean, to explain that

24 question, in fact, I think you had to be there yourself and try what's

25 happening. Because you sit in a place suddenly, you know, and you can't

Page 5703

1 go one way, you can't go the other way, you know, and you get, I would

2 say, say, messed up in a way. You reach a point where it's like, you

3 know, I don't really care any more, you know. You're in the HVO, you

4 know.

5 And we came to Mostar, and you realise suddenly now that it didn't

6 matter what you do now because you aren't the HVO, you haven't been

7 fighting against the Muslims, so you might as well have stayed where you

8 are. You come back to Denmark. You know, in Denmark a lot of people

9 can't understand this, you know. A lot of people, in fact, hate this, you

10 know, that you've done it.

11 So you come home to Denmark. You try to live at home at first.

12 It's not going to work out, you know. You have been on this side, and you

13 think there's only one choice, you know. If you want to go back, there's

14 only this one place to go back to. That's basically it. I think

15 seriously - not to offend you - but unless you have been to war, unless

16 you have been a soldier, and especially a soldier in a foreign army, I

17 think it's pretty difficult to understand.

18 Q. How many times exactly did you return to Denmark during the year

19 1993?

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, with the Chamber's permission, I

21 realise this is Mr. Poriouvaev's witness, but I ask permission to address

22 the Chamber on this because it impacts the trial generally in terms of the

23 schedule the rest of this week.

24 MR. MEEK: Your Honours, I believe there is a division of labour.

25 I have been called on this myself. Mr. Krsnik has been called on this

Page 5704

1 issue. And you know, what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, repeatedly Defence counsel, both

3 Defence counsel, have repeatedly interacted on witnesses. The Prosecution

4 has never done that. And I am asking the Chamber's permission. If the

5 Chamber denies it, then I won't proceed.

6 JUDGE LIU: Are you going to address the same issue, or you are

7 going to address something else, some more general matters?

8 MR. SCOTT: Both, Your Honour. I need to advise the Court about

9 the schedule. We have another witness who has to finish tomorrow. He can

10 only be here tomorrow. I know the Court has expressed some concern about

11 breaking witnesses up and having witnesses pending on cross-examination.

12 But we have a witness -- and I'm just advising the Chamber now. In my

13 opinion, respectfully, this cross-examination is wasting a huge amount of

14 time, a huge amount of time, with all respect.

15 And if we do not finish this witness very soon, then I will tell

16 the Chamber that I will apply again to begin taking witnesses out of order

17 and break them up, do some direct, then another witness, and some do

18 cross, then another witness. Because we have other witnesses -- we have

19 at least three or four more witnesses this week which are now, again,

20 faced having to stay over the weekend. We have one witness who can only

21 be here tomorrow. With all respect, Your Honour, counsel should conduct a

22 proper cross-examination. We are wasting time. I just advise the Chamber

23 that. I will ask that we take the next witnesses out of turn, and I will

24 ask to break up their examination so that we can finish the one that has

25 to go home. Thank you.

Page 5705

1 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, nine out of ten prosecutors I've met in

2 my life thought cross-examination was a waste of time anyway. And I guess

3 Mr. Scott falls in that nine out of ten. I will skip this part if it will

4 make Mr. Scott feel happier. But you know, this witness testified about

5 leaving Denmark, about going to Croatia, going back to Denmark several

6 times.

7 The last question I asked, before interrupted by Mr. Scott, was

8 very simply how many times had this witness travelled back to Denmark in

9 the year of 1993. I believe it's relevant. His testimony during direct

10 was a little bit confusing, and I ask how many times he returned. I think

11 it's important, and I think it's a valid, and I think it's within the

12 scope of the direct examination.

13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm not going to say anything more. I

14 object to counsel's comments directed at me absolutely, but I won't

15 belabour it.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, we believe the last question you asked is a

17 relevant question. You are entitled to ask that question. But before

18 that, you asked a lot of questions which are not so relevant.

19 MR. MEEK: Also, Your Honour, I did let the witness speak for

20 quite a while and not interrupted him, and I should have interrupted

21 him --

22 JUDGE LIU: No, no, no, that's not the fault of the witness. It's

23 your problem.

24 MR. MEEK: I can accept that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: If there's any dispute -- if there's no dispute at

Page 5706

1 all, there's no need for you to ask the question. Still, we have not come

2 to the essential issues of this case.

3 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

5 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Knudsen, I will try to finish this as quick as possible. How

7 many times did you travel back to Denmark in 1993?

8 A. Specifically 1993?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. One or two times. One or two times, I think.

11 Q. You mentioned that the last time I think that when you went back

12 to Denmark that you were there for a short time, and there was nobody to

13 talk to, so you returned to the war?

14 A. [No audible response]

15 Q. When you returned to the war, you wanted to fight for the Muslim

16 army; correct?

17 A. That is correct, yeah.

18 Q. You found that during your experience in the war that you heard

19 many rumours and people talked about a lot of things that never

20 materialized; isn't that true?

21 A. That's true, yeah.

22 Q. Absolutely. When you indicated, for example, that Mr. Naletilic,

23 or Tuta, was supposed to get you American uniforms and M-16s, that was

24 just another rumour, wasn't it?

25 A. You can put it like this: You've got a commander. If a commander

Page 5707

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Page 5708

1 in a legion or a unit addresses you and says, "Tuta's going to come with

2 uniforms and new rifles," why would a commander come from his office, get

3 down to us, basically telling us, "No problem, guys, new uniforms coming

4 in. Tuta is in Zagreb"? Why would he do that?

5 Q. I don't know. Can you read his mind? Can you read his mind, sir?

6 A. No. Can you?

7 Q. No, absolutely not. There you go.

8 Now, tell me and tell the Trial Chamber when you got the American

9 uniforms.

10 A. We didn't get American uniforms.

11 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber when you got the M-16 rifles that were

12 promised you from this alleged Tuta, this alleged commander.

13 A. Why do you ask me these questions when you know the answer?

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek, you have to cool down. This Trial Chamber

15 has made rulings previously that if there's argument between the witness

16 and the counsel, we'll blame the counsel rather than the witness. This

17 applies to both parties.

18 Ask your question, and do not argue with this witness on some

19 trivial matters.

20 MR. MEEK:

21 Q. Mr. Knudsen, you never received the uniforms nor did you receive

22 the guns, did you?

23 A. No, that is correct.

24 Q. Thank you. Another example is you indicated in your

25 cross-examination that you heard that Stela was upset because some of his

Page 5709

1 soldiers were being taken from his unit, did you not?

2 A. That is correct. Milicevic came to us exclusively and was

3 laughing about it because he think it was funny.

4 Q. And the way that came about, to make sure I understand it from

5 your testimony, Milicevic told you that Stela had told him that Stela had

6 told something to Tuta. Isn't that about what happened?

7 A. That was a bit confusing.

8 Q. Isn't that about how it was, though, confusing?

9 A. What I mean is I get to this court, I'm asked to tell what I hear

10 and also what I saw, both part of it, and I can only -- I can only, in

11 fact, sit down and say to you, "This guy said this." Right.

12 Q. Right. But when Milicevic told you the story, it was not coming

13 directly from Stela, was it?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. It had come even round about allegedly, from what your knowledge

16 was, from a person called Tuta who said he had been contacted by Stela,

17 and Stela may have been contacted Milicevic, or Milicevic had talked to

18 this Tuta, and then it winds its way around to you; correct?

19 A. What basically happened was Milicevic told us that Stela has been

20 in contact with Tuta complaining about taking some of his best soldiers

21 away.

22 Q. Tell me, Mr. Knudsen, how many languages did Milicevic speak?

23 A. He spoke a bit of German. And we had this guy Swapo who spoke a

24 bit of German. You could talk German with Milicevic. You could

25 understand.

Page 5710

1 Q. And a lot of these statements you were hearing were in, as I think

2 you indicated, in pidgin English or pidgin German?

3 A. Yeah, because it's the only expression I know of.

4 Q. The only military action that you were involved in in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina would have been the 17th of September, 1993 in Mostar;

6 am I correct in that?

7 A. Yes, it was an action against an enemy among the Croats.

8 MR. MEEK: Could the usher please show the witness P704. And if

9 you will, just go to the English version because Mr. Knudsen is very

10 conversant in English. Just go to page 33, very last page.

11 Q. First off, Mr. Knudsen, the Prosecutor had you look at page 22

12 earlier.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But you've never seen this document before, or have you?

15 A. Not as I recall, because I can't realise the names. Is that what

16 you're looking for?

17 Q. I'm just wondering if you had ever seen the document before it was

18 shown to you in court this morning.

19 A. No, sir, as I recall. Maybe I have seen it, maybe not, because

20 for me, it's a list of names and I don't --

21 Q. You don't have any information or evidence as to how this list was

22 created, do you?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And you can see the last page is unsigned, page 33?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5711

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Page 5712

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Can we see it?

3 MR. MEEK: I think you have it in the binders. I can put it on

4 the ELMO.

5 JUDGE CLARK: What was the point of asking him to look at that,

6 then?

7 MR. MEEK: I basically wanted him to look at it to see if he had

8 any knowledge as to how it was drafted or who drafted it, which he said he

9 did not, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we better be cautious at this time because some

11 of the names are under protective measures.

12 MR. MEEK: Yes, I didn't -- Judge Clark, Your Honour, I think you

13 have it in your binders.

14 JUDGE CLARK: If it's the same list, it's all right, but I was

15 just wondering, in view of the fact that you've already been warned about

16 not wasting time, why you were asking him to identify a document that he

17 clearly identified -- that was shown to him and he identified his name.

18 MR. MEEK: I probably should not have done that, Your Honour. I

19 should have just asked him directly the question, and I'll try to do

20 better about that.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Meek, you really must move on to the issues in

22 this case, because we've spent about an hour going round and round the

23 mulberry bush and you haven't addressed one single issue. And this is a

24 vital witness to both you and Mr. Naletilic.

25 I've just found the rule that says that the Court has a duty, in

Page 5713

1 fact, under Rule 80 -- 90, to ensure that the interrogation and

2 presentation is effective for the ascertainment of the truth and to avoid

3 needless consumption of time, and I think you have failed so far -

4 spectacularly failed, in my view - to comply with that rule in the last

5 hour. So please, Mr. Meek, you're well able to get to the point quickly

6 when you want to.

7 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you for your advice and

8 direction.

9 Q. During your tenure in Bosnia and Herzegovina, you saw Tuta one

10 time; correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. You never talked to him; is that correct?

13 A. That is correct, yes.

14 Q. You never saw him or heard him give any orders to anybody, did

15 you?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. Okay. And most of the things you heard about him, you heard

18 through an interpreter named Alan who was with the -- some group in --

19 unit in Mostar?

20 A. Yes, but we also heard a lot about Milicevic.

21 Q. Exactly. And most of the things that you heard were second- or

22 third-hand hearsay; isn't that a fair statement?

23 A. That depends on how you mean it. I mean, if you heard -- if a guy

24 has talked to you at the line and said, you know, "Stela said this" or

25 "Tuta said this," yes, I would call it second-hand. If you have a guy

Page 5714

1 standing in front of you with a translator, I wouldn't call it second-hand

2 because you've got the person there.

3 Q. But the translator was Alan?

4 A. It was Alan. That's correct, yes.

5 Q. And I understood you to say in Mr. Par's examination that Alan was

6 not fluent in German or English?

7 A. No, but he could speak English.

8 Q. Okay. You indicated that the unit in Mostar -- or Stela's unit

9 had really no command whatsoever, that they were very unstructured? Is

10 that a fact?

11 A. They behaved like there was no structure, yes.

12 Q. And once you got to Ljubuski, it was even worse, was it not?

13 A. No, I never said that.

14 Q. Was it better than?

15 A. I would say, in a sense, that these guys were more brutal, maybe,

16 but there was a chain of command. And I don't know how many foreigners

17 you've been talking to, but every foreigner who was in this brigade agreed

18 that the command was better, it was more professional.

19 Q. You testified that you were in -- you had met another German that

20 you had known in Orasje; is that correct?

21 A. Orasje, yes, that's correct.

22 Q. And you were then with a unit, the Zeljko Bosnjak unit; is that

23 correct --

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. -- in Ljubuski. Very briefly, when you first arrived in Zagreb --

Page 5715

1 MR. MEEK: And I'll be finished, Your Honours.

2 Q. When you first arrived in Zagreb, you testified that you went to a

3 government building there, a parliament, I think it was?

4 A. Parliament building, yes.

5 Q. And you were with three other foreigners?

6 A. Yes, a Danish guy and two German guys.

7 Q. And can you describe what happened when you went in that

8 building?

9 A. You mean from when we entered the door?

10 Q. Yes. Was there security? Was -- did you show your papers? What

11 happened?

12 A. We didn't show any papers because it was security, maybe two or

13 three guys. But we asked for Barbic, as the name is, and this guy came

14 down to us and picked us up, and we practically got a little badge. I do

15 not recall what it says, but I think "guest," so he took us down the

16 basement, there is a restaurant there and gave us a meal, asked us what

17 did we want to eat? And we got something to eat, and after we got to his

18 office, you know, and he started talking to us, explaining --

19 Q. I understand that.

20 A. -- what we could do.

21 Q. Do you believe that, or do you have an idea that you were treated

22 any differently than anyone else who would enter the parliament building?

23 A. I would say yes. We were foreigners. If you got to the

24 parliament at that time, there was going to be roadblocks along it. My

25 opinion was it's not just a place you could get in, you know.

Page 5716

1 Q. You testified that on the Exhibit P241.1, which was a certificate

2 of November 5, 1993, you testified that you actually saw Mario Milicevic

3 sign that document. Was that your testimony?

4 A. That was my testimony, yes.

5 Q. Did you also see him type out that certificate?

6 A. What do you mean by "type out"?

7 Q. With a typewriter.

8 A. No, we didn't see that.

9 Q. So basically, is it your testimony that the certificate, the typed

10 certificate, was already prepared and then you just observed the

11 signature?

12 A. They had been prepared for us, and it was ready for us. And later

13 on, they got a photo, and we were supposed to have these plastic badges --

14 actually, we never received anyone. They told us it was just a temporary

15 paper.

16 Q. Then on Exhibit P658, which was an October 22, 1993 letter -- do

17 you recall that document? Do you recall that document? If not, I will

18 have the usher show you that document.

19 A. I had a lot of documents. I would like to see it again.

20 Q. I apologise. I know you did. I'm just trying to move as quickly

21 as possible here.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. For the record, you're looking at that document P658 now?

24 A. Yes. I recall it.

25 Q. You recall -- were you present when this Branko Barbic signed that

Page 5717

1 document?

2 A. Yes, I was present.

3 Q. Did he prepare it in your presence?

4 A. No, he did not. He asked the secretary.

5 Q. Okay. You turned over all of the documents that you had in your

6 possession to the Danish police when you were first interviewed; is that

7 correct?

8 A. As I recall, yes, to my memory.

9 Q. And was there -- if you know, was there any reason that an

10 individual from the Danish criminal police sat with you in this interview

11 in 1998?

12 A. That's a Danish rule.

13 Q. It is a Danish rule?

14 A. It's because in 1997, I think it was a Danish guy who interviewed

15 me, and 1998 was a Portuguese police officer came to Denmark to ask me,

16 and then there had to be a Danish policeman nearby.

17 Q. And that was because, to your knowledge, Danish law requires it?

18 A. I was told so, yeah.

19 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours. That's the only questions

20 that I have. For the record, because I was admonished at 2.30 by Judge

21 Clark, I don't believe I started my cross-examination until 3.00. Thank

22 you very much.

23 Thank you, Witness. It's nice for you to come and give your

24 testimony.

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Page 5718

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-examination?

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from judges? Judge Clark?

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CLARK: I have just one question. Mr. Knudsen, when you

6 were injured and taken to the hospital in Mostar, were you an in-patient

7 there? Did you sleep overnight?

8 A. Yes, I slept overnight.

9 JUDGE CLARK: How was the hospital functioning? Was it operating

10 as a normal hospital, or was it a hospital that was managing on a

11 shoestring and with limited facilities?

12 A. I would say with limited facilities. You would have small beds

13 standing nearby each other, even with hard wounded and slightly wounded.

14 And if there was a problem -- we had an occasion one guy died, they would

15 take this small tent, roll him around the bed so you couldn't see him.

16 That was my expression of it.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Did you see any of the prisoners being brought in

18 and treated?

19 A. No, I did not.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra?

22 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

23 Mr. President.

24 Witness, I have a question for you. As regards the mistreatment

25 to which prisoners were subjected, you spoke about bottles on the head and

Page 5719

1 the opening of fire by guards, and you also mentioned military court and

2 summary -- simulated war crime tribunals. Mr. Martinovic, was he -- was

3 it possible for him to be informed of the mistreatment to which prisoners

4 were subjected? Was he aware of that at the time that mistreatment was

5 being done? Or was he ever informed by anyone else of such mistreatment?

6 Martinovic and Naletilic, could they be -- was it possible that they were

7 aware of such cases of mistreatment?

8 A. It's possible they had been told later, perhaps, but my impression

9 when these things happened, it was occasionally when the Croatians got

10 drunk, that things started to happen. Like, one occasion was this with

11 the bottles was because we were sleeping in the apartment at the base and

12 a lot of rounds getting fire, and one guy got out, you know, and came back

13 to us and sounded like madmen, they were drunk, the Croatians, so they

14 picked up the prisoners who was in -- up in the ceiling of the house -

15 they were kept there - and lined two of them up and put bottles on their

16 head and went back shooting to hit the bottles. So that was my

17 impression: Was these people got drunk or anything and they had the power

18 to do so, they did it. But if they'd been told later, Stela or Naletilic,

19 I'm not sure.

20 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of judges' questions? Yes,

22 Mr. Par?

23 Further-cross-examined by Mr. Par:

24 Q. Mr. Knudsen, about this incident you just mentioned involving

25 bottles on top of heads, did that happen during the -- those ten days you

Page 5720

1 spent in the Vinko Skrobo unit or in some other place?

2 A. It happened in Ljubuski. It was not in Vinko Skrobo.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving your

5 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We wish you good luck

6 in your future.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. The following documents I

11 would like to tender as evidence: P594, P14.4, P14.5, P241.1, P606,

12 P658. The document P004 [sic] has already been tendered before.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour. I would also

15 like to tender some evidence on behalf of the Defence, the map, 14.5, and

16 I would like the Registry to give me a number for that. Then P608, again

17 asking for the number, for a number. And also I would like to tender, on

18 behalf of the Defence, the original signature of Vinko Martinovic after

19 the judge's suggestion this morning to tender it as evidence.

20 JUDGE LIU: Did you show this signature to the Prosecution?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, I have not.

22 JUDGE LIU: You have to show them right now.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I will do that now, and I would like to

24 note that an uncontested signature of Vinko Martinovic is available at the

25 detention unit where it is kept. If I may ask the usher's assistance in

Page 5721

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Page 5722

1 giving this paper to Mr. Prosecutor.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would object, Your Honour, because there was

4 some ruling rendered by the Trial Chamber about the order in which

5 documents should be rendered, and the parties should be warned in advance

6 and given an opportunity of seeing the documents. We have not seen them

7 before. And now, what is the origin of this document? Where was it

8 received? How? In what circumstances? Difficult circumstances? Was

9 this signature made or not? I don't know. And then there is special -- a

10 specific order of taking, removing samples for comparative examination and

11 graphic expertise. I think that -- I object.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Do allow me to respond. I believe that

14 during my cross-examination before offering this document, I said clearly,

15 and I'll repeat it now, that during the examination-in-chief of this

16 witness, who claimed about one signature, that it was made by my client in

17 his presence, and after that I asked my client to sign a blank paper.

18 That's the origin of the signature I'm trying to present.

19 The second issue is that this was about to be shown to a witness

20 who is not an expert, but the only reason that we used this document in

21 the way that we used this is to help the Chamber attach appropriate weight

22 to certain evidence. There was no ulterior motive or tactics designed in

23 not showing the Prosecution something that I should have. It was only

24 to -- designed to help verify this signature, and the Prosecutor's office

25 will be able to authenticate it.

Page 5723

1 JUDGE LIU: Those documents that are not objected, opposed by both

2 parties, are admitted into the evidence. As for the signature, after

3 consultations among the Judges, we'll admit it into the evidence. It is

4 so decided.

5 Yes, Mr. Meek.

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, you were busy with that

7 conversation, and I would just, for the record, state that on

8 Exhibit P658, since the witness testified both documents that have this

9 Branko Barbic signature, we wouldn't object to the admission of those

10 documents at this time because of the witness's testimony. However, we

11 would ask that the weight to be given those documents at the end of the

12 trial after we have our witnesses be evaluated at that time due to

13 differences in Croatian law and the parliament, which we will bring forth

14 at the time. Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: If this document is not admitted, how could we give

16 any weight to this document at this stage? My suggestion is that we have

17 this document admitted into the evidence. And later on, when your case

18 comes, you could present your evidence.

19 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 THE REGISTRAR: I would like to give the numbers to all these

22 admitted exhibits.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 THE REGISTRAR: They are PP594, PP14.4/3, PP14.5/8, PP241.1,

25 PP606, PP658, DD2/16. That is for the marked P14.5. And DD2/17 for this

Page 5724

1 Document 608. And then DD2/18 is the note for the signature.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 This Trial Chamber is seized of this motion filed by the

4 Prosecution on the matter of the protective measures concerning the next

5 witness. We'll render our decisions this afternoon.

6 We'll adjourn until 9.30 tomorrow morning.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

8 3.49 p.m., to be reconvened on

9 Thursday, the 15th day of November, 2001,

10 at 9.30 a.m.

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