Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5845

1 Friday, 16 November 2001

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18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE LIU: I just want to inform both parties that we might have

20 to sit this afternoon because we lost two days of the other week and we

21 tried to find time to make it up.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session now.

24 Good morning, Witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 5871

1 JUDGE LIU: Will you please make the solemn declaration in

2 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 WITNESS: Witness NN

6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Examined by Mr. Bos:

10 Q. Good morning, witness. Can you hear me?

11 A. We do. Good morning.

12 Q. Witness, the usher is going to show you a sheet of paper, and on

13 that sheet of paper is your name and the name of the pseudonym which the

14 Trial Chamber has given to you. Could you please look at this paper and

15 confirm that this is indeed your name, which is on the paper?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. You're welcome.

19 Q. As you can see on the sheet of paper, the pseudonym that has been

20 given to you is Witness NN, double "N." From now on, I will refer to you

21 as Witness NN. Do you understand that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Witness, where did you live before the war started?

24 A. At Zegulja, municipality of Stolac, the village of Orlja.

25 Q. And what is your ethnic background?

Page 5872

1 A. Bosniak Muslim.

2 Q. Could you tell me what happened on the 18th of June, 1992?

3 A. On the 18th of June, I was expelled by the Serbs.

4 Q. And where did you go to after you were expelled?

5 A. I went and my old mother went with me towards Stolac.

6 Q. How long did you stay in Stolac?

7 A. Three days.

8 Q. Where did you go next?

9 A. The Chetniks then started to shell Stolac, and orders were given

10 by the civil defence to have the civilian population moved towards

11 Capljina and other places, including Croatia.

12 Q. So where did you go then?

13 A. We went to the village of Oplicici.

14 Q. At that time, did you try to join the army to fight the Serbs?

15 A. Yes. We went several times to report to the HVO, the TO, and the

16 HOS; however we were turned down because of a lack of weapons and

17 equipment.

18 Q. But is -- is it correct that at one moment, you did join an army?

19 A. On the 5th of September, I joined the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Could you explain why you joined this army and not any other

21 army?

22 A. At that moment, when I had this wish to sign up because my --

23 because our country was occupied and because they had taken my uncle

24 prisoner, who was a close family member.

25 Q. And where were you stationed in the Bosnian army?

Page 5873

1 A. We were at the southern camp. And then the Croat Defence Council

2 did not allow us into their zone of responsibility. I noticed even

3 before that that the Croat Defence Council was not something that we would

4 be doing together. As was said before, there were chequer-board signs,

5 flags, pictures of Ante Pavelic, on the MUP building, the municipal

6 building, and other buildings. It was obvious they were not in favour of

7 the BH. And in my opinion, they were in favour of some kind of Herceg

8 Bosna.

9 Q. What makes you say that that you felt that they were in favour of

10 some kind of Herceg Bosna, the HVO?

11 A. Well, because there weren't any flags of Bosnia-Herzegovina, et

12 cetera. There were only chequer-board flags.

13 Q. What does a chequer-board flag represent?

14 A. Well, you see, of course, this was a symbol of the Republic of

15 Croatia.

16 Q. What happened on the 13th of June, 1993?

17 A. On the 13th of June, 1993, in the village of Rotimlja, which was

18 in our zone of responsibility, we received orders from our superior

19 command that we should withdraw towards Blagaj, that there should be no

20 conflict with the Croats.

21 Q. And what happened when you withdrew?

22 A. We were arrested by the Croat Defence Council. This is the road

23 leading to Blagaj, and it's called Grab.

24 Q. How many people of you were arrested?

25 A. Well, about 40.

Page 5874

1 Q. Were you surprised about this arrest?

2 A. Well, of course we were. There were between 100 and 200 soldiers

3 there, the special unit called Bozanovi.

4 Q. At that time in Rotimlja was there an armed conflict between

5 the HVO and the Armija?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. Where did they take you and your fellow soldiers?

8 A. I and my fellow soldiers were taken to the neighbouring village of

9 Medjine. We were there, and they brought in three other soldiers of

10 ours. And it's the -- it's the first time that I heard the greeting "Za

11 dom spremni," "It is for the homeland," three times.

12 Q. What does this greeting mean?

13 A. Later on, I found out that "Za dom spremni" is the Croatian

14 greeting. I don't know.

15 Q. Do you know how this greeting was given?

16 A. Well, if you were to ask me what my name was, I would say I don't

17 know. They would say "Za dom," and we would have to reply "Spremni." And

18 that happened three times. "It is for the homeland." Answer: "Ready."

19 Q. Did they do anything physically as well, or was it just --

20 A. No. Two men were singled out there, and they were supposed to

21 negotiate, reach a compromise, that there should be no shooting, that they

22 would let us go, that we'd go home, that our families and some women were

23 even detained at a school in Crnici.

24 Q. And where did they take you then?

25 A. Then they took us in a Zastava truck towards Capljina, to Gabela.

Page 5875

1 Q. And where were you taken in Gabela?

2 A. Gabela? We were lined up by the wall of a garage, and we were

3 robbed there. And I saw Dzemal Topic there, and Senad Bilali, nicknamed

4 Leki there.

5 Q. Witness, is Gabela, was that a prison facility?

6 A. Well, it was a camp. If you saw camp inmates there, it was a

7 camp.

8 Q. And did you see any prisoners in this camp when you arrived?

9 A. Well, yes. I just told you; those two I mentioned. And then they

10 took us into a garage made of tin, and then they took us out again, and

11 then we had to do push-ups. And they asked Bajro Pizovic, the commander

12 of my brigade -- I could barely recognise him because he was all black and

13 blue. He was arrested sometime before that in April 1993. So that shows

14 how badly he was beaten.

15 Q. Now, you just before you mentioned two names, who were these

16 persons you mentioned?

17 A. Names? Oh, they were some members of the army. They were

18 arrested before us.

19 Q. Could you give a rough estimate of how many prisoners were already

20 in the Gabela camp when you arrived?

21 A. I could not give a number. I'm just telling you that I saw these

22 two men, and also this commander, et cetera.

23 Q. For how long did they keep you at the Gabela camp?

24 A. About three or four hours.

25 Q. And where were you taken next?

Page 5876

1 A. Onto a bus. They told us that we were being taken for an

2 exchange. But that was not the case. We were taken to the Heliodrom.

3 Q. And this is you with all your 40 fellow soldiers who were all

4 taken to the Heliodrom, or was the group --

5 A. No.

6 Q. -- smaller --

7 A. Part of our group was kept in Gabela. Kemal Balavac, Mustafa

8 Beso, nicknamed Muta.

9 Q. If I want you to refer to names, I will ask you.

10 A. I beg your pardon.

11 Q. It may be that we -- there may be issues of confidentiality, so

12 please don't refer to names unless I specifically ask you. Is that okay?

13 A. All right. I do apologise.

14 Q. So with how many soldiers did you actually -- well, with how many

15 people were you taken to the Heliodrom?

16 A. Well, about 35, 30 approximately.

17 Q. And where were you taken when you arrived at the Heliodrom?

18 A. We were taken to solitary confinement cells.

19 Q. Do you recall the name of the building where these solitary

20 confinement cells were placed?

21 A. The central military investigation prison.

22 Q. How long did you stay in these solitary confinement cells?

23 A. The night.

24 Q. Just to clarify, because you said you were arrested on the 13th of

25 June, 1993.

Page 5877

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And is it also correct that you arrived at the Heliodrom on that

3 same date, that whatever we discussed was all happening on one day?

4 A. All of it happened the same day.

5 Q. Now, you said you were -- you stayed for one night in that

6 solitary confinement cell. Where were you taken the next day?

7 A. Yes. The next day, they took us to the attic, to the top floor.

8 Q. Were there any other prisoners in the attic of this building?

9 A. Well, yes, yes. In those rooms, there were even some women below

10 us, actually, and they saved us. The International Red Cross came then,

11 and they found us upstairs and we were registered.

12 Q. What do you mean when you say that these women saved you?

13 A. Well, there were quite a few inmates there who had been in the

14 camp for half a year, and they were even released from the camp without

15 being registered with the International Red Cross at all.

16 Q. But -- well, that still doesn't really answer my question. Why do

17 you think that you were saved by being kept in the attic? Is it

18 because --

19 A. No. Because on that day, the International Red Cross registered

20 us, and regardless of whether I would survive or whether I would get

21 killed, I would be registered there and people would know that I had been

22 there. I mean it's the Red Cross that saved us and these prisoners who

23 told them that we were up there, told them about us.

24 Q. So is it your testimony that the prisoners told -- some other

25 prisoners told the Red Cross that you were kept in the attic of that

Page 5878

1 building and it was not the guards who told the Red Cross?

2 A. Oh, no, no way. Not the guards. It's the prison inmates who told

3 the Red Cross that there were other prisoners there. There were those who

4 were working elsewhere, and the Red Cross were looking for these people

5 who were in other locations, were being hidden, et cetera, et cetera.

6 Q. Witness, who guarded the Heliodrom?

7 A. At the moment when we were brought there, and until the very end,

8 it was the military police.

9 Q. And did the military police, did these guards tell you who had

10 actually arrested you and had taken you to the Heliodrom?

11 A. Well, the police did not contact us at all.

12 Q. Would they tell you who had arrested you?

13 A. Well, it's like when we were going to work and things like that.

14 Sometimes they said that we were arrested by General Juka.

15 Q. And why would they say that you had been arrested by General Juka?

16 A. Because probably Juka was a Bosniak and at that time he was at the

17 Heliodrom.

18 Q. But were you in fact arrested by General Juka?

19 A. No. We were captured by the Croat Defence Council - I told you -

20 the special unit called Bozanovi, and there were well-known soldiers

21 there.

22 Q. Now, this General Juka, do you know his full name?

23 A. As a matter of fact, I saw him once. And other prisoners said to

24 me, "There is Juka." I never saw him before or after that.

25 Q. Where did you see him?

Page 5879

1 A. Well, we saw Juka through the bars, and he went with a group of

2 soldiers to the building below us. Tall, skinny, and with a limp, and

3 they said, "That is this Juka."

4 Q. And I asked this question before, but you didn't answer: Do you

5 know his full name?

6 A. Well, I guess it's Juka Prazina, something to that effect. I

7 don't know really.

8 Q. Witness, while were you in the Heliodrom camp, did you ever see

9 any HV soldiers or soldiers from --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you tell me -- could you tell me about that a little bit

12 more? Did you see any specific units, and how did you know that these

13 were HV soldiers?

14 A. Well, there were differences between their emblems, the HV and the

15 HVO; there was a big difference. And then also in their behaviour, and

16 then also in terms of their technical equipment. There was a significant

17 portion of technical equipment, their mortars, tanks, motor vehicles, the

18 110s, all of this from the former JNA. And through the other inmates who

19 worked for them several times. There was the Tigers, the Zagreb unit, the

20 Karlovac unit, and others, and Gromovi as well.

21 Q. Do you know whether these HV soldiers also participated in combat

22 in the area?

23 A. Well, yes. They were always used, wherever there were these

24 actions, and they even went to Vakuf.

25 Q. Vakuf is a -- which village do you mean by that, the name Vakuf?

Page 5880

1 A. Well, there are two Vakufs actually. And then the HVO and the

2 army -- probably Doni Vakuf, the lower Vakuf. I don't know. And then

3 it's from the Avijaticarski Most, further on, towards Tresnje.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object to this

6 question because the witness is being asked to guess, especially about

7 places in Bosnia, and this has nothing to do with the indictment. The

8 indictment pertains to Herzegovina.

9 MR. BOS: I won't pursue the matter, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: So you may skip this question. Thank you.

11 MR. BOS:

12 Q. Now, Witness, did these HV soldiers had a -- had a patch which was

13 different from the HVO soldiers?

14 A. The HV and the HVO, there is a difference. The army and the HVO,

15 again, there are different emblems and there is an obvious difference.

16 Q. What is the obvious difference?

17 A. Well, it would say the "HV," and then it would say the "HVO."

18 Q. But did these Croat soldiers, these HV soldiers, did they at all

19 times wear their HV patches while you were at the Heliodrom, when you saw

20 them?

21 A. No. Because we told the Red Cross there were other members of the

22 military too. When we said that, they found out, and they changed all

23 the emblems into one and the same emblem, the HVO. And also licence

24 plates, HVO; those that belonged to the Croat Defence.

25 Q. Sorry, I'd just like to clarify this answer. You say the

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Page 5894

1 prisoners told the Red Cross about the presence of HV soldiers? Is that

2 what your testimony is?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. And what happened after that, when that -- this was reported to

5 the Red Cross?

6 A. They probably found out about it then, and then they didn't want

7 to have proof of another army being present there, and then they changed

8 the emblems, and they were all the same, so if --

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I have two objections:

11 One, I object to a fact witness speculating. And that's what's happening

12 in this case right now, speculation.

13 Two is, in the interest of saving time, the Prosecutor doesn't

14 need to repeat answers in the question. The witness gives an answer, and

15 the Prosecutor repeats the answer again. In the interest of time, those

16 are my two objections, thank you very much.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well --

18 MR. BOS: May I respond to this objection?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. BOS: First of all, I thought the answer was not clear enough,

21 and that is why I tried to clarify what he had actually said. And if that

22 involves some repetition, then I'm sorry. But I thought the answer was

23 not clear enough, and that's why I did this.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that it is kind of repetition of your

25 question. If you -- there are certain points you are not quite clear, you

Page 5895

1 may ask questions about that point, but not repeat the whole question from

2 the very beginning to the end.

3 And secondly, we don't believe that is kind of speculation on this

4 time. You may -- well, I think we have to break at this moment. And here

5 is a clarification from the Bench about the sitting plan today.

6 First of all, we have to tell the Prosecution that we are not

7 going to hear next witness after this one, this present one. We will

8 adjourn until whenever we finished with the present witness. If we could

9 finish with him by the lunchtime, there is no sitting this afternoon.

10 But if we couldn't finish with him by 4.00 this afternoon, we might sit

11 even longer. We will resume at 11.30.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

15 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness NN, for how long did you stay at the Heliodrom?

17 A. I stayed there from the 13th of June, 1993, until the 19th of

18 March, 1994.

19 Q. While at the Heliodrom, were you ever taken out for labour?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And how often were you taken out for labour?

22 A. Well, that depended.

23 Q. What do you mean that depended? Depended on what?

24 A. Sometimes for an entire day. Sometimes for two days. Sometimes

25 three days running. Once I spent 15 or -- to 20 days doing forced

Page 5896

1 labour.

2 Q. Where was this, this time that you spent 15 to 20 days of forced

3 labour?

4 A. That was in Vojno, Bijelo Polje.

5 Q. And what were the conditions working in Vojno? Can you briefly

6 describe that?

7 A. Very bad.

8 Q. What kind of work did you have to do?

9 A. Trenches, pontoon bridges across the Neretva River, bunkers,

10 digging holes for rifles in garages, et cetera.

11 Q. Now, besides Vojno, where else did you perform labour?

12 A. At Rudnik, Santiceva Street, Bulevar, at Podhum, at the plateau,

13 of the Heliodrom, and in Potpetak and at Aksamova's woods.

14 Q. Can you tell me, what kind of work did you have to do in these

15 places? You've already described a little bit what you did in Vojno, but

16 what type of other work did you have to do?

17 A. Well, in Santiceva Street, we dug some sort of tunnel. At Rudnik,

18 we built a bunker for one PAM, anti-aircraft machine-gun. In Heliodrom,

19 we plucked grass. At Heliodrom, we dug a trench. On the Bulevar, on one

20 occasion we dug trenches, put up sandbags. At Podhum, we also dug

21 trenches.

22 Q. Were you also taken to a place called Harem in Balinovac?

23 A. Yes. We dug graves for people who were killed, and we covered

24 them with earth later.

25 Q. You said that you dug graves for people who were killed. Who were

Page 5897

1 these people that were killed?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat? The

3 interpreter didn't understand.

4 MR. BOS:

5 Q. Witness, I think you have to speak a bit more into the microphone

6 because the interpreters have some difficulty in hearing you.

7 A. Those were mostly graves marked "NN," which means unknown. Only

8 two graves were marked with family names, and those -- that was the Kajtaz

9 family, mother and child.

10 Q. Do you know whether the Kajtaz family was a Muslim family or a

11 Croat family?

12 A. Well, it was probably Muslim, as far as I know.

13 Q. Did this woman and child, could you see how they were killed?

14 Could you see --

15 A. I saw women killed either with a bullet or with a blunt object,

16 that I saw.

17 Q. Are you now specifically referring to this woman you've been

18 referring to as Kajtaz or women -- or another woman?

19 A. I mean her.

20 Q. Witness, did you find out from other prisoners if they were taken

21 out for assignments other than the ones you performed?

22 A. Well, yes, we did. It was this group of mine with whom I worked,

23 and then behind me there were more people, but I don't know the names.

24 Q. Did you hear from other prisoners where they would work? Did you

25 find -- did you find out if there were other places where also labour was

Page 5898

1 performed, where you didn't go but where some other prisoners did go?

2 A. Yes, yes. They were taken to do work at Buna, at Varda, Rosne

3 Njive, that is, Rosne Fields, all the way up to Ravno, as far as I heard.

4 Q. Witness, do you recall a prisoner by the name of Salko Zolj?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did he tell you about labour, what type of labour he had to

7 do?

8 A. He had been taken with a group away for about 20 days, and then he

9 came back. He said he had been to the commander, Tuta, at Siroki Brijeg.

10 He said they had been building some sort of villa.

11 Q. You referred to a man by the name of Tuta, the commander. Did you

12 ever -- did you ever see this man?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Witness, do you recall a time that you were given a blue uniform

15 at the Heliodrom?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When was this?

18 A. On the 1st or the 2nd of July. Around that time, 1st of July.

19 Q. And were you the only one who was given a blue uniform?

20 A. No. There were about 20 of us, and they named us the Blue

21 Orchestra there.

22 Q. Do you know why you were given these blue uniforms?

23 A. Well, all of us had been members of the BH army, and it was

24 probably for the sake of being registered somehow, identifiable, sort of.

25 Q. And did you sometimes perform labour with this group called the

Page 5899

1 Blue Orchestra?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. BOS: If I can go into private session for one question, Your

4 Honour?

5 JUDGE LIU: Well go into the private session.

6 [Private session]

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18 [Open session]

19 MR. BOS:

20 Q. Witness, was there an occasion that you and this group that you

21 called the Blue Orchestra were taken to an area in Mostar near Liska Park?

22 A. Yes, yes. It was at the Bulevar.

23 Q. And do you recall approximately when that was?

24 A. Well, approximately, it was around mid-August most probably.

25 Q. Now, could you -- could you tell us who took you that day from the

Page 5900

1 Heliodrom?

2 A. I don't know the names, but it was a member of the HVO. He had no

3 rank insignia that I could tell. He was a commander of some sort.

4 Q. And where did they -- where did this man take you?

5 A. He took us from Heliodrom to the Rondo, where we got off the bus.

6 And then we walked by the Liska Park. And then in the neighbourhood,

7 around the health centre, we stopped. That's where the location was.

8 Q. And with how many prisoners were you on that day?

9 A. 18 or 19. That's how many men we were in the Blue Orchestra.

10 Q. So you were taken to a building. And then who was there at the

11 building?

12 A. You mean to whom the unit belonged? I didn't understand the

13 question.

14 Q. Well, you said you were lined up in front of a building.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Were there any soldiers present at that time?

17 A. Yes. There was the man who brought us, and a woman, plus the

18 commander. And others said it was one of Stela's commanders. I don't

19 know his name.

20 Q. So you say that this was a man -- could you describe this man who

21 you say that was -- that he was one of Stela's commanders? Could you

22 describe him physically?

23 A. He was tall. We did not dare to look at him carefully. We were

24 ordered to look down.

25 Q. Did he have any physical remarks, except that he was tall?

Page 5901

1 A. Well, after he beat me up, he told me, "Look at me." He had a

2 scar on his head, and he said he had been wounded by the army, and he

3 showed another scar from a wound and his leg, and he said, "I got this

4 from the Chetniks."

5 Q. Now you said that were you beaten up by this man?

6 A. Yes, he was -- he beat me up.

7 Q. What did he do? Where did he beat you?

8 A. He kicked me in the stomach, and he punched me on the head.

9 Q. And what happened after that?

10 A. After that, the following happened: After this commander was

11 finished with me, Stela showed up, in a jeep.

12 Q. So you said that this man called Stela showed up in a jeep. Do

13 you know what the colour of the jeep was?

14 A. No, because we were looking down, as I said.

15 Q. Could you describe this man which you called Stela?

16 A. I can, because he beat me black and blue too. He was wearing a

17 base -- a cap with a short hair cut, not very tall, and stocky.

18 Q. Now, you just said that he beat you up as well. Could you tell me

19 exactly what happens so -- he arrives with his jeep, and then what

20 happened? Could you please describe the situation?

21 A. He got out of the jeep, and I don't know whether it was at that

22 moment or after the match was finished, but he said, "You will find out

23 who Stela is." He started kicking me on the head, and at that moment, I

24 passed out. And one of the inmates asked for help, and he walked up to

25 him. And then I noticed that he had this rubber circle to train your

Page 5902

1 hand. And with this in his hand, he punched him, and he cursed his

2 mother. While a woman was singing at that moment, "The smell of lillies

3 is spreading across the field." And he said, "Die, you motherfucker."

4 Q. Well, a few questions. First of all, so he first started to beat

5 you; that's what you testified. Did he beat you also with this device

6 which you've been talking about, or did he beat you just with his fist?

7 A. He was punching me and kicking me. He wasn't using any objects.

8 I don't want to lie.

9 Q. Where did he -- where did he hit you?

10 A. On my head, on my chest and in the stomach.

11 Q. You said that he then -- that somebody else -- that he beat

12 somebody else as well. Do you know the name of that person he beat after

13 he had beaten you?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. BOS: Maybe we can go into private session so that he can give

16 the name.

17 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [Open session]

25 MR. BOS:

Page 5903

1 Q. Witness, while you were beaten, you said that there was this woman

2 who was singing a song. First of all, who was this woman?

3 A. They said it was the secretary of Stela, the commander.

4 Q. And --

5 A. I don't know her name.

6 Q. And you said she was singing something about lillies. What kind

7 of song was she singing? What's the meaning of that song?

8 A. Well, I don't know, but there is this song which is sung often,

9 "The smell of lillies is spreading across the fields," and it's probably

10 an allusion to the BH army, of which we had been members. And it was part

11 of the emblem, together with the flag, of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Now, what did this Stela do after he had beaten this second

13 person?

14 A. He said, "Go to work, and whoever won't work will be reported to

15 me." And we were taken away then, and I never saw him again.

16 Q. And after that, were you actually -- were you taken for work after

17 that? And where were you taken?

18 A. Towards the health centre.

19 Q. What kind of work did you have to do that day?

20 A. We made loopholes for rifle fire, aimed at BH army positions, and

21 across the Basca we made a bunker.

22 Q. Do you know how long you worked on that day?

23 A. Well, until 8.00 p.m., approximately.

24 Q. And you were then taken back to the Heliodrom?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 5904

1 Q. Now, Witness, was there another occasion that you were taken to

2 the Bulevar, to the health centre?

3 A. Yes, we were.

4 Q. Do you recall when that was?

5 A. I think it was the 17th of September.

6 Q. Which year?

7 A. 1993.

8 Q. Please tell us what happened on that day. First of all, at what

9 time did somebody come and collect you from the Heliodrom?

10 A. Around 4.00 a.m. We arrived up there near the health centre. We

11 reckoned that we were going to work again. But unfortunately, it was

12 something quite different. It was a real tragedy.

13 Q. With how many people were you taken there? With how many

14 prisoners?

15 A. We were about eight or nine. At moments like that you don't even

16 know your own name for sure, let alone how many people there are.

17 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 14.3?

18 Q. First of all before we continue, Witness, is it correct that you

19 have some problems with your eyesight?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this something which is a recent problem, or did you have that

22 problem as well when you were performing labour during the war?

23 A. It all happened maybe during the time I spent at the camp.

24 MR. BOS: Maybe the witness can be shown first the photograph

25 right -- placed in front of him so that he can have a better look at it.

Page 5905

1 Q. Do you recognise what's on the photograph, Witness NN? Would you

2 place your finger on a certain spot on the photograph?

3 A. [Witness complies]

4 Q. Where is it where you've put your finger on?

5 A. Can you mark the health centre on this picture to help me find my

6 way around? It's difficult. I can't see very well.

7 Q. Well, Witness, if this is too difficult for you, we will do it

8 without the photograph.

9 A. It's difficult, really. I can't manage.

10 Q. Very well, Witness. We'll do it without the photograph.

11 A. Thank you.

12 Q. Can you describe where you were taken that morning, on the 17th of

13 September?

14 A. Well, up towards the Liska Park, and then towards the health

15 centre, and then that area over there, between the health centre and

16 towards the high school, over there. I mean if we were there, I could

17 describe it for you in detail.

18 Q. And were you put in a particular place in that area?

19 A. We were in garages then. Later on, we found out that this was an

20 attack against BH army positions.

21 Q. Tell the Court what you were ordered to do and how this attack

22 proceeded.

23 A. Yes. The attack started around 4.30, 5.00. They didn't manage to

24 break through the front. Our task was to get the wounded and the dead

25 out, and if they were to break through the front line, that we should go

Page 5906

1 as the second or third echelon and take care of the lines,

2 fortifications, et cetera.

3 Q. So you're talking about a second and a third echelon. What was

4 the first echelon supposed to do?

5 A. Well, the first echelon was prisoners, and they were going in

6 front of the soldiers who were in action. I heard that they were even

7 using some wooden rifles. I have to be quite honest. I did not see them.

8 Q. And it's your testimony you were in the second group; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Well, yes.

11 Q. And what did you have to do?

12 A. Well, we had to pull the dead and the wounded out, if we managed

13 to.

14 Q. Now, tell me what happened. Did you actually -- did you go

15 out, and what did you see, and what happened?

16 A. We got out, after the fire ceased. I met a prisoner who was

17 getting a wounded person out, who I knew real well. And another wounded

18 man was with him?

19 MR. BOS: Maybe again, just to be on the safe side, we can go into

20 private session so that I can ask the names of these persons.

21 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5907

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 MR. BOS:

22 Q. Witness, during this operation, did you see whether any prisoners

23 got killed?

24 A. Yes. I saw Pajo Enes lying in a pulled of blood. I don't know

25 whether he was killed or whether he was wounded, and he was from my unit.

Page 5908

1 And I saw many soldiers and prisoners lying there.

2 Q. Now, tell me what happened. So you were there and saw all these

3 people. And what did you do?

4 A. We were taken back from there to a different place where we were

5 supposed to work, and that was Podhum.

6 Q. Now, how long did this whole operation last?

7 A. You mean action? Combat?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Well, approximately -- well, you know, being so afraid, it seemed

10 to me that it went on all day. But perhaps this operation lasted about an

11 hour.

12 Q. And was the operation successful?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. No territory was gained on that day?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Now, you said that after that, you were taken to Podhum; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, yes, the same day.

19 Q. What did you have to do there?

20 A. The same: Communication trenches, through gardens from building

21 to building, and also opposite Podhum there were sandbags. The road was

22 closed off that way so that it could be crossed without the other side

23 seeing you.

24 Q. Witness, was there also an occasion that you worked - I think you

25 already testified to that - that you worked at the Santiceva Street?

Page 5909

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you tell us when that was and for how long you worked

3 there?

4 A. I was there for two days and a night.

5 Q. And who was the commander at that time while you were working

6 there?

7 A. I don't know who the commander was, but I know who took us. And I

8 saw that he had part of the responsibility, and that was Zelenika. Ivan

9 was his first name, I guess. He was nicknamed Zela.

10 Q. And what kind of work did you have to do for this man Zela?

11 A. Well, this tunnel I was telling you about that we had dug behind,

12 behind the prison, towards the positions of the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also going from one building to another.

14 Q. Can you tell us how many prisoners -- while you were working in

15 Santiceva Street, how many prisoners were working there?

16 A. Three, and I was the fourth one. I mean we were the ones digging

17 that tunnel, but there were always quite a few prisoners around.

18 Q. Now, while you were working at Santiceva Street, were you able to

19 identify the insignias of the soldiers who were there in that area?

20 A. Well, this ATG of this military police and then this HVO, et

21 cetera.

22 Q. Now you say ATG. Was that written on the insignia, or how did

23 you know that the soldier was from an ATG?

24 A. Well, they say that that's an anti-terrorist group. This

25 Convicts' Battalion, whatever, that's what these witnesses were saying,

Page 5910

1 that's what I heard, that that is what they were called.

2 Q. Did you recognise any people who were there serving under an ATG?

3 A. Yes, yes, yes.

4 Q. Could you give me the names?

5 A. That's Miro Stankovic. Then Ivica Dzakula, and Kulas. I

6 know that that is his last name, but I don't know his first name. And

7 also Bozo Peric.

8 Q. Just looking at the transcript to see whether the names appear

9 correct on the trip. Could you just spell the name of Dzakula

10 A. Dzakula, Ivan. D-z-a-k-u-l-a.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness.

12 MR. BOS: Your Honour this finishes my examination.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

14 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination? Mr. Meek, please.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

16 Q. Good morning, Witness NN.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. My name is Chris Meek, and I am one of the attorneys for the

19 accused Naletilic. You mentioned an individual --

20 MR. MEEK: And frankly, Your Honours, I don't know -- I don't

21 think we were in closed session at the time he mentioned -- we could go

22 into closed session, to be sure.

23 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25

Page 5911

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. MEEK:

15 Q. Witness NN, do you recall approximately what month it was that you

16 had this conversation with Salko?

17 A. Well, believe me, I wouldn't know the month, but approximately

18 after all these events that I mentioned previously.

19 Q. So it would have been -- the last events you mentioned, Witness,

20 were -- was the 17th of September, 1993. So would it have been after that

21 time?

22 A. Well, after that time, October or November. It wasn't really

23 important to me to remember exactly when.

24 Q. And when this individual, Salko, told you that he had been working

25 on a house, he had just come back from that work; is that correct?

Page 5912

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know -- can you describe this individual for the record?

3 A. The man was taller than me, thinner, and he also wore a moustache.

4 Q. After October or November, 1993, did you have any further

5 occasions to speak with this Salko, or was this --

6 A. No.

7 Q. Now, the next question I would ask you would be just for yes or

8 no. Do you know if he is alive presently?

9 A. I see him.

10 MR. MEEK: Could we go into private session, please?

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go into private session.

12 [Private session]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5913

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

10 MR. MEEK:

11 Q. The only question I would have for you, Witness NN, would be: Was

12 any -- were any other person or persons present at the time that Salko

13 told you this story?

14 A. Well, you see, when a prisoner would come back from work, alive

15 and well, then we were expecting to hear what they'd have to say. There

16 would be other prisoners there. But unfortunately, I don't know the

17 names, because often I didn't know what my own name was.

18 Q. In your direct testimony, Witness NN, you testified as to the

19 conversation or statement Salko made to you that he had been working on a

20 house in Siroki Brijeg. Is that the extent of what he told you, or did

21 he go into any details?

22 A. No, no, not on a house. It was Tuta's house. And that nobody

23 touched them, did anything to them, and they could eat and drink as much

24 as they wanted.

25 Q. And that was the extent of what he told you? He did not go into

Page 5914

1 detail in regard to exactly what type of work he was doing, or was it

2 inside, outside, that sort of thing?

3 A. I could not talk about that.

4 Q. Is it that he did not tell you, or you do not want to talk about

5 it right presently?

6 A. He did not tell me, and I do not wish to talk about it.

7 Q. Okay. Witness NN, thank you very much. And best of luck to you.

8 A. You're welcome. To you, too.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, please?

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Par

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. NN, I'm Zelimir Par, attorney at law, and I'm

13 one of the Defence counsel for Vinko Martinovic, Stela. I'm going to put

14 a few questions to you related to these events that you mentioned today

15 during your testimony.

16 Please, do you know in which unit Vinko Martinovic, Stela, was?

17 Do you know the name of this unit? Do you know anything about this unit?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you perhaps know one of the soldiers from that unit?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you know the zone of responsibility of that unit at that time?

22 A. Well, as I heard from the other witnesses, wherever it was

23 necessary, that's where the zone was. However, in my opinion, it was

24 there at the Bulevar, this zone.

25 Q. On that day, the 17th of September, 1993, do you know in which

Page 5915

1 unit you were?

2 A. What kind of unit could I be?

3 Q. I mean where were you brought as a prisoner?

4 A. Well, they told us that we were brought to Stela's and that Stela

5 dressed many soldiers and that there are still many people who are alive,

6 and if they are honest men, they will come here and speak the truth before

7 justice and the truth.

8 Q. Sir, during your testimony, I noticed that you stand behind what

9 you personally saw and experienced. So my questions are primarily

10 directed at your personal experience. And of course there were other

11 witnesses before this Court, and there will be other witnesses, and they

12 will talk about their experience. So please understand my questions in

13 that way. I am primarily interested in your personal experience,

14 knowledge, et cetera, so I hope you appreciate what I'm saying.

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Now, in order to clarify where the

17 witness was, what zone this could be, I would like to show a map, and I

18 think it's going to be better for the witness to handle that map. I

19 understood that the witness had some trouble with finding his way in a map

20 but perhaps that map was inappropriate, if the witness's eyesight is

21 troublesome. I'm going to show map 14.5, where the health centre can be

22 seen better, the one that the witness asked for a few minutes ago. So we

23 are going to show him this map and ask him whether he can orient himself

24 better in that particular map.

25 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I'm going to object. This is a

Page 5916

1 photographer which is practically similar to the one I showed, and Your

2 Honours yourself could see how many difficulties he had with identifying

3 the photograph, so I really don't see the need of putting the photograph

4 again to the witness. I don't think he will recognise anything.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that we should let Mr. Par to have a

6 chance to try his luck.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I think that

8 it's the witness who really could have answered, not to have this kind of

9 suggestion made to him, "I imagine the witness will not be able to

10 recognise this."

11 Your Honours, this is a very important matter for this Defence,

12 where this event occurred on the 17th of September, because this event

13 occurred all over the Bulevar and we are interested in which unit was

14 involved, and we have no other way of establishing this than through a

15 map. So again I'm asking the witness whether he can find the health

16 centre in that particular map.

17 Q. Mr. NN, can you orient yourself in this map? Can you see whether

18 the health centre is on this map?

19 A. Well, it was approximately here, here, here. Here is the health

20 centre.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Can we put this on the ELMO, please?

22 A. Oh, this is really hard for me to see. Oh, I can't tell you more

23 than this. Impossible.

24 Q. Can you or can you not orient yourself on this map?

25 A. The more I look at it, the more troubled I am, and I cannot really

Page 5917

1 define anything.

2 Q. Witness, do you wear glasses?

3 A. No. Doctors won't let me because of my blood pressure, because

4 when I put glasses on, then my blood pressure goes even higher, so, no.

5 Q. This eye ailment of yours, does it have a name? Do you have a

6 diagnosis? Can we know what this is?

7 A. I don't know that.

8 Q. Did you go to see a doctor for these eye examinations? Did the

9 doctor tell you what this was? Are you short-sighted, far-sighted,

10 pressure in the eyes, anything?

11 A. The doctor told me that this was incurable and that I should

12 monitor my blood pressure and if it's all right, it's all right; and if

13 not, that's the way it is.

14 Q. Witness, you made a solemn declaration today. Did you manage to

15 read those letters, or did you learn it by heart?

16 A. Well, it's different when you go letter by letter, and this was

17 quite short, and that is one thing. And then a photograph in different

18 colours is a different thing. I don't even drive my own vehicle because

19 of that, let alone other things.

20 Q. I don't want to bother you with this any more, but just tell me

21 when did these problems of yours start? A year or two ago? Ten years

22 ago?

23 A. I noticed them after I got out of the camp, enormous difficulties.

24 Q. Very well. Then about this position, because we are not in a

25 situation where we can use a map, we'll try to do with words to discuss

Page 5918

1 distances and so on.

2 Sir, we are now interested in the 17th of September, 1993. Was it

3 across the length of the entire Bulevar, the entire line of separation

4 that the operation was carried out?

5 A. Well, from the health centre to the high school was as far as I

6 could see. I can't say about the area beyond that.

7 Q. And on the other side of the health centre - because if you I

8 agree with me, the health centre is somewhere in the middle of the

9 Bulevar - and to the left and right of it, was the line of separation. So

10 did the operation take place on both sides of the health centre? Was

11 there shooting? Was there combat?

12 A. I didn't understand the question.

13 Q. Then we'll try another question. I want to get that place where

14 you were on the 17th. Where were you on the 17th of September when you

15 were brought there? Do you remember?

16 A. I said it was night-time, early morning, in the small hours. And

17 I'm not a local in Mostar to be able to find my way around so easily and

18 to know the houses.

19 Q. If you don't know, you don't know. You just have to say so. I'm

20 not trying to force you to remember something you don't know. So did I

21 understand you correctly that you cannot tell us where you were exactly on

22 that day when you were brought there?

23 A. No. I just said that we were brought to a garage, and it's a

24 large area over there.

25 Q. Can we agree that it was along the entire line of separation that

Page 5919

1 there was shooting from both sides during that operation?

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, this is really fast. And it gives a difficult

3 time to the interpreters. Just control your pace.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise. I promise this won't

5 happen again.

6 Q. Witness, I will repeat the question. Sir, we are talking about

7 the operation of the 17th of September. Did it take place along the

8 entire Bulevar, the entire line of separation?

9 A. When we say "the Bulevar," I'm not a man born in Mostar to be able

10 to tell, but I know that from the high school up to the health centre,

11 there were combat operations.

12 Q. Please, are you aware that at that time in that area there were

13 several different units?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. Do you think that this unit, Stela's unit, was holding the entire

16 line of separation? Was that the information you had?

17 A. I cannot say that.

18 Q. Do you think that this unit, Stela's unit, was holding the entire

19 line of separation? Was that the information you had?

20 A. I cannot say that, I cannot speak about that, because I was not

21 interested in knowing who held what.

22 Q. Did you ever hear another name of another commander involved in

23 that area on the Bulevar?

24 A. Everyone had five different names and that's what we heard when

25 people -- different people were discussed.

Page 5920

1 Q. I'm trying to establish one thing. I want to prove that Stela's

2 unit was not the only one in that locality on that day, that there were

3 several different units in that area at the time. Do you allow for that

4 possibility?

5 A. I know about the existence of Stela's unit, and that's the only

6 thing I can claim. I have no further comments.

7 Q. Do you know -- did you see Stela on that day?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know who was in command of that operation on the 17th of

10 September, 1993, on that line of separation on the Bulevar from the health

11 centre to the high school?

12 A. No.

13 Q. We presented a document yesterday, I cannot show it to you because

14 you cannot read it. Otherwise I would show it to you too, but I -- the

15 Chamber knows that we presented a document which said that this operation

16 was commanded by Mario Milicevic Baja, commander of the Benko Penovic

17 [phoen] ATG. I want to ask you have you ever heard that name? Is it

18 familiar to you?

19 A. No, it's not. And I wasn't interested. Perhaps if I had been

20 there, if I had heard that name --

21 Q. Can you tell me once again - you told us once before but I'm not

22 sure there wasn't a mistake - when did this attack start on the 17th of

23 September?

24 A. I didn't have a watch, but I reckon it was around 4.30, 5.00.

25 Q. Please, again, in this brief that I just mentioned and from the

Page 5921

1 testimony of several witnesses we have already heard, it transpires that

2 the attack started at noon, at 12.00. Can you tell us, is that correct or

3 not correct?

4 A. Sir, what I'm saying is correct. Let every witness tell his own

5 truth. And I've told you this several times already, and please, don't go

6 on and on about it.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] If I may ask the Trial Chamber's leave

8 for us to go into private session for a minute so I can ask this witness

9 about a name?

10 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 5922

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [Open session]

7 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Mr. NN, you say that your task at the time was to try to pull out

10 the wounded and people who were killed from the line. How many persons,

11 wounded or killed, did you see at that time, personally?

12 A. I can say for sure that I saw those two who were wounded, this

13 inmate Salko Gerin who was with them, and I also saw some soldiers and

14 civilians who were lying on the ground. I don't know how many of them

15 there were, five or six. I have no idea.

16 Q. And according to you, that operation finished about an hour after

17 it started, if I understood you correctly, which means it was already over

18 sometime in the morning, around 5.00 or 6.00. Is that true?

19 A. I'm saying again I didn't have a watch. Perhaps it was 4.00, but

20 visibility was good, as usual. I think that's how it was.

21 Q. Now, let us forget for a moment about the 17th of September, 1993,

22 and let us go back to the event when you said Vinko Martinovic, Stela,

23 beat you. I'm interested in the particular moment when Stela arrived.

24 You said that he arrived in a jeep. My question is: Was Stela passing by

25 that place and saw you stopped and got out, or how did it happen?

Page 5923

1 A. We were lined up against a wall, all of us inmates, and this

2 deputy commander of Stela's, whose name I don't know, he came up to me

3 first and beat me up. And after he beat me up, at the same moment, this

4 jeep appeared and he came from the other side of the building. He came up

5 to us.

6 Q. We know that. But I wanted to ask: Were you waiting for him?

7 A. What was there to wait for? We were lined up there with our hands

8 behind our backs, behind our heads, against the wall, and it was something

9 like a boxing match with us being used as sacks.

10 Q. You described the event. We understand what happened to you. But

11 I'm just trying to clarify which unit was involved.

12 A. I don't know anything about the unit, but I know that the

13 commander, Stela, beat me up.

14 Q. I'll put my question again. Without going into the details of

15 your claim, I'm asking: Those soldiers who lined you up and this man who

16 you called "deputy commander," were they waiting for the commander, Stela,

17 or was it that some jeep was passing by and Stela showed up and got

18 involved in the situation?

19 A. I don't know whether they were waiting for Stela. They are the

20 only ones that can know that.

21 Q. Was there a particular reason why you were beaten up? Was there

22 anything that could have caused you to be chosen for such treatment?

23 A. I don't know. It's probably that I had long hair.

24 Q. You think that could have been the reason?

25 A. It couldn't have been anything else, because out of 18 or 19 of

Page 5924

1 us, there was no other thing that distinguished me. We were all Muslims,

2 we were all members of the Bosnian army. I was the only one who had long

3 hair.

4 Q. You mentioned --

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have only one more name to ask about,

6 and then we can go out of private session.

7 JUDGE LIU: So we will go to the private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. And you are saying that there was a girl present there. Could you

24 describe her, if you had occasion to have a look at her?

25 A. She wore leggings. She was thin. They said she was Stela's

Page 5925

1 secretary. I don't know whether that was true or not. I couldn't get a

2 good look at her.

3 Q. How old was she, approximately?

4 A. At that time, I wasn't even sure about my own age. She looked

5 youngish. I can't say how old she was.

6 Q. You said you heard a song being sung about some lilies, and you

7 associated that with the flag of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an allusion of some

8 sorts?

9 A. I didn't link that with the flag, but she was singing about

10 lilies, and I said it was probably because we were the BH army who had

11 lilies in their emblem. And this is a well known emblem of the BH army.

12 And one more thing - excuse me - there is a recording of the song which is

13 often played, and the lyrics go, "The smell of lilies is spread being

14 across the fields."

15 Q. I want to come back to this because somewhere in the beginning you

16 said that the first problems that appeared during the joint operation of

17 the HVO and the Territorial Defence started with discontent about the

18 hoisting of those flags, the chequerboard flags. And my question is:

19 Did Bosnia-Herzegovina had a flag of its own before independence was

20 proclaimed?

21 A. Sir, I'm not a politician, I don't know that.

22 Q. You know that this flag with the lilies was the flag of

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war?

24 A. Yes. I saw it and it's correct.

25 Q. So I'm asking you now, is that the flag of the State of

Page 5926

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

2 A. It's not, and please don't ask me about that. Ask me about the

3 things for which I was called here.

4 Q. You were the one who mentioned the flag, and I'm not going to ask

5 any more questions about the flag. I don't want you to get nervous.

6 Whenever the witness does that it is the counsel who is blamed.

7 A. I'm not being nervous and I'm not being upset. I'm just telling

8 the truth. I will tell the truth whenever I know it.

9 Q. Just a little while longer, please.

10 JUDGE LIU: Witness, would you please keep a distance from the

11 mike, please? Because we have some difficulties. Thank you very much.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have just one more question.

15 Q. For the sake of clarifying one part of this witness's testimony.

16 Sir, you mentioned the camp of Vojno in Bijelo Polje. Could you tell us

17 who was the warden of that camp, the commander of that camp at the time

18 when you were there?

19 A. At first, the commander was a man called Rudo, who was not bad,

20 but later, it was Mario Mihalj, and his deputy was Dragan Sunjic.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness NN. I have nothing

22 else.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Bos?

24 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 5927

1 Questioned by the Court:

2 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, I would just ask you to clarify a number of

3 issues. You described the incident where you were lined up against a wall

4 with your hands behind your back, and you said that the deputy commander

5 of Stela's unit beat you up. I'm talking about that incident. And you

6 referred a couple of times to a boxing match. What did you mean by that?

7 A. Well, he was punching me so fast as if I were in the ring together

8 with him.

9 JUDGE CLARK: I see. And the other thing I wanted to ask you

10 about was you had mentioned that you didn't know Mostar very well. Did

11 you know it at all before these terrible events in your country?

12 A. You mean Mostar; right?

13 JUDGE CLARK: The town of Mostar.

14 A. Once I brought my mother to a hospital, to the internal ward, up

15 at Bijeli Brijeg.

16 JUDGE CLARK: The reason I asked you that - and you may not know -

17 is that you referred to a place called Liska Park.

18 A. Yes.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Did you know that or did you know anything about

20 that area also being a Muslim cemetery?

21 A. I didn't know anything about it, only that people were buried

22 there during the war, but -- and there are crosses there for people of all

23 ethnic backgrounds.

24 JUDGE CLARK: So you do know that it was some sort of a cemetery

25 or some part of it was a cemetery?

Page 5928

1 A. Yes, in those years of war.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. When you talk about the war, you're

3 talking about the war with the Serbs?

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Now, my final question is -- and I recognise that

6 you say that there were times that it was hard for you to know your name,

7 never mind numbers, but can you help us: Of your group that was first

8 arrested by the HVO, your unit in the army - and most of you were taken to

9 the Heliodrom, you said - how many of you survived?

10 A. Well, you see, I know that two men got killed.

11 JUDGE CLARK: And -- of your Blue Orchestra? Is that what you're

12 talking about? Two men were killed in the Blue Orchestra?

13 A. No, only one man got killed from the Blue Orchestra.

14 JUDGE CLARK: So does that mean that approximately some number in

15 the 30s survived the camp?

16 A. Well, yes.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much.

18 A. You're welcome.

19 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Witness

20 NN, before your arrest that took place on the 18th of June, 1992, did you

21 know Stela?

22 A. I was not arrested on the 18th of June, 1992.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You were arrested when, then?

24 A. I said I was arrested on the 13th of June, 1993.

25 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] So before your arrest, did you know

Page 5929

1 Stela?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] You were not the only soldier that

4 was arrested. You were a soldier, like all the other soldiers that were

5 with you. Why did somebody hit you? Was it reprisals? Was it a

6 corrective measure? Were you hit because of a bad answer given during a

7 cross-examination? Were you punished in some way? You were not the only

8 soldier.

9 A. I didn't understand your question.

10 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I am talking about the event when

11 you were beaten by the commander of Stela and Stela himself. I did not

12 understand. You were not the only soldier in that group. There were

13 other soldiers in your group. How is it that spontaneously you were hit?

14 Was it because you had committed a mistake? Was it for corrective

15 measures because you did not answer correctly or you didn't do a job

16 correctly?

17 A. No questions were asked. We were just lined up. And he

18 immediately started beating me. And he then said, "Look at me," and

19 he showed me that he was wounded in the head by the BH army and in the

20 leg by the Chetniks. And we couldn't lie about our identities. We

21 couldn't pretend that we were not military men. It was obvious we were

22 members of the BH army.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Are you able to recognise Stela

24 here in this courtroom?

25 A. He hasn't changed a bit. If I were in his shoes, I would drop

Page 5930

1 dead right here and now.

2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

3 A. You're welcome.

4 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of judges' questions?

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour, but I

6 would really have to exert some effort to refrain from asking for an

7 explanation of such a comment that we just heard.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

9 MR. MEEK: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

11 Mr. Bos?

12 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, very much, Witness, for helping us by

14 giving your evidence.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. I am proud that I

16 lived to see the day when I can come before this Court and tell the

17 truth.

18 JUDGE LIU: And we all wish you good luck in your future.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

20 JUDGE LIU: When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will lead you

21 out of this courtroom.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. And have a nice day.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: Are there other matters to attend to, Mr. Bos?

25 MR. BOS: No, Your Honour. There are no exhibits.

Page 5931

1 R. MEEK: None for Mr. Naletilic.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Nothing to tender.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Scott?

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President if I could just have one more minute of

6 the Court's time, please. First of all, I do want to thank the Chamber

7 for its willingness to sit later today in the event -- it turned out not

8 to be necessary, but we do appreciate the Chamber was willing to do that.

9 On scheduling, I just wanted to inquire, because the videolink

10 testimony is scheduled for the week after next, and we are getting to that

11 point where we have to get serious about making the arrangements, et

12 cetera. And I'm asking this question not to advocate a position

13 necessarily but just simply so that we can plan properly.

14 The days that will be taking the videolink testimony, as you

15 probably can expect because of the time differences, will require that we

16 start later in the day. In fact, I think at least one day I think we are

17 going -- possibly going quite late. But I take it - and again please

18 don't misunderstand that I'm necessarily advocating this - but during

19 those days, we will not be working at other hours of the day, that is, we

20 won't take other witnesses earlier in the day if we are starting, say, at

21 3.00 in the afternoon, I assume.

22 JUDGE LIU: No, no. We will take -- we will not take any other

23 witnesses.

24 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE LIU: And we believe that in about ten days, we are going to

Page 5932

1 hear the testimony through the videolinks in a different country. In the

2 past proceedings, we intentionally give some latitude to both parties

3 concerning the time they are going to use, both in direct and

4 cross-examinations. Because of the technical problems of long distance

5 relay, and we will start our sitting in the afternoon, perhaps until

6 night. So we would like to invoke the Rule 90(E) to avoid undue

7 consumption of time during the videolink testimony.

8 Without prejudice to the rights of both parties, woe would like to

9 invite both parties to inform the bench beforehand how long you are going

10 to take for the direct or cross-examination, approximately. We have to

11 finish our witness in one day so that to allow the representative of the

12 Registrar and the technicians of this Trial Chamber to travel to another

13 city and set up all those equipment, which means as for how long we are

14 going to sit for one day, it all depends on you.

15 Having said that, we will resume at 9.30 Monday morning.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 1.01 p.m., to be reconvened on the 19th day

18 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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