Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6044

1 Tuesday, 20 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS OO [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Prosecutor?

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I have no

13 further questions for this witness.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the judges? Judge Clark?

15 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I have a number of questions.

16 Questioned by the Court:

17 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Witness, you were telling us over the last few

18 days that you had spent a considerable time in the camp in - its name has

19 escaped me for a moment, the one just outside Mostar - the Heliodrom, and

20 that during that period, that you went 20 or 30 times to Mr. Stela's base

21 or to other bases in the town to carry out forced labour. On each

22 occasion, when you left the Heliodrom, were you transported in the same

23 way?

24 A. Yes. We were always transported in the same way, that is, there

25 was this blue truck, a Dais truck, and the driver was Dinko, whose surname

Page 6045

1 I don't know. The driver, Dinko, would only drive us when we had to

2 perform work for Stela. Whenever we were taken to some other units, it

3 would be a different driver.

4 JUDGE CLARK: That's the very question I wanted to ask you. Do

5 you know if this man Dinko was attached to Stela's unit?

6 A. I believe that he was a member of Stela's unit.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Do you think, at this remove in time from when you

8 were in the Heliodrom, that you might be able to describe this man,

9 Dinko?

10 A. I think I might. He was rather dark, of medium height, maybe 178,

11 180, with cropped hair, and slightly receding hair. He also drove another

12 vehicle, a privately owned vehicle, a smaller vehicle, an Ascona, I

13 believe, which used to belong to a Muslim woman. And that's what I know

14 about this man.

15 JUDGE CLARK: What was his build and his age, as far as you could

16 ascertain? Was he slightly built, heavily built, broadly built?

17 A. I would say that he was slightly built, of medium height, and he

18 was between 37 and 40 years of age.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Arising out of that, is Dinko quite a common

20 nickname?

21 A. That's what we -- that's what we called him. That's what

22 everybody called him.

23 JUDGE CLARK: Have you heard other people with the nickname

24 Dinko?

25 A. No.

Page 6046

1 JUDGE CLARK: Now, I'd like you to describe a man whose name came

2 up a great deal yesterday - you mentioned him very frequently in your

3 evidence - and that was an Ernest Takac. Could you describe him for me,

4 please, if you can?

5 A. Yes. Again, he was a very dark man, dark-skinned man, and he had

6 a beard, straight hair. He was also somewhere between 37 and 40 years of

7 age, of medium height, perhaps 1 metre 76, 1 metre 80, thereabouts.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And what about his build?

9 A. He was of medium build. He wasn't a -- he was not a very heavy

10 person. He weighed perhaps 80 or 85 kilos.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Did anybody that you would meet on a regular basis

12 wear an earring with a cross, have you any recollection, in your dealings

13 with soldiers when you were a prisoner?

14 A. I can't remember, but the majority of them used to wear earrings

15 in those days.

16 JUDGE CLARK: So it doesn't stand out.

17 A. No.

18 JUDGE CLARK: If I change the subject completely now, do you

19 remember that yesterday you were talking about wooden rifles that were

20 given to you? And I believe that you said that the wooden rifles were

21 made by a man who was a prisoner who had been a carpenter. How did you

22 know that?

23 A. We knew that for some time already. When we were placed in the

24 sports hall at the Heliodrom, whilst we were there, somebody talked about

25 some rifles being made. But we laughed at it because we didn't know what

Page 6047

1 they would be used for.

2 JUDGE CLARK: You said that on the day on which you were given

3 these rifles, you had seen him painting the stock of one of them. Is that

4 the extent of your knowledge of his connection with the manufacture of

5 these rifles, or fake rifles?

6 A. On that day, I saw one rifle being finished by him. He was

7 working on the rifle butt. He was painting it black.

8 JUDGE CLARK: And I believe that your evidence was that this is

9 the only occasion that you have personal knowledge of the use of fake

10 rifles.

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE CLARK: When you were in Mostar, East Mostar, after your

13 escape in September, did you meet -- did you become aware of the presence

14 of a BBC journalist and a camera team in East Mostar at exactly the same

15 time?

16 A. No.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Did you -- I think you told us that you told your

18 story about your escape, your incarceration, your work as a prisoner, and

19 then your escape to the person that you think may have been from the MUP,

20 or whatever, that evening. Do you think that story about the rifles

21 became widely disseminated in Mostar?

22 A. I don't know this for sure. I spent only two days in Mostar after

23 I had crossed over. And after those two days, I left Mostar, that is, to

24 be more precise, I left Mostar sometime around the 21st, in the evening

25 hours on foot over the hills.

Page 6048

1 JUDGE CLARK: You had a colleague who was, like you, slightly

2 injured and who made it over to the east side. Can we take it that he,

3 too, was interviewed as you were and made a statement?

4 A. I don't know. I'm sure that my colleagues, if they are called

5 here, will tell you that. I know what happened with me. I don't know

6 what exactly happened with them.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Now, in relation to this fake rifle, did it have a

8 strap or any attachment?

9 A. Yes. There was a strap, a green strap, an original rifle strap.

10 And on top of those rifles, there was a nail which was supposed to imitate

11 the sights.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Did you use the strap, and would that explain how

13 you managed to hold onto the rifle in such extraordinary circumstances?

14 A. Yes. We were ordered to sling those rifles around our necks, and

15 I was holding the rifle in the position ready to fire.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Now, one thing that you were cross-examined about

17 yesterday by Mr. Par, who had some difficulty with it - and I have to

18 confess that I do, too - I thought you said that when you got over to the

19 other side - and I'm not sure whether this meant over the confrontation

20 line or over the Neretva River - I think you said that someone asked you

21 to hand over your rifle, and I wanted to know what you meant by that.

22 A. When I got over to the other side -- when I said that I got over

23 to the other side, I was referring to the separation line and the

24 building. Once we got to the building, we were afraid that they would

25 kill us, and because of that fear, I took off my jacket, which means that

Page 6049

1 I also had to take off the rifle. I gave the jacket to one of the

2 soldiers there, I think the one that I jumped at when I -- when I got

3 there, and I took the rifle and handed it over. Yesterday, I told you

4 that, if necessary, I would put it in writing as to who has the rifle now

5 and where it can be found.

6 JUDGE CLARK: I'm not asking you -- I wouldn't ask you where the

7 rifle is exactly. I know what you said about it. But when you said you

8 handed over the rifle, did you actually hand over that imitation rifle?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE CLARK: And then did you get it back?

11 A. They never gave it back to me.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Well, how do you know, then, what happened to it? I

13 think there is a lot of confusion about this, and you're the only one who

14 can sort this out at the moment. If you handed the rifle over to the

15 soldier, the Armija soldier, at the confrontation line, with your jacket,

16 how did you get the rifle back again in order to give it to somebody who

17 put it in a museum? I'm not asking you for names.

18 A. I said that I had handed over the jacket, and I had taken the

19 rifle back and handed it over to another man. And I tried to locate the

20 rifle. I searched for it. I wanted to have it back. Believe me, I would

21 like to have it back, and I hope that I would be able to get hold of it

22 one day, because it is a kind of memento, a precious memento for me.

23 JUDGE CLARK: I'm not sure you've quite cleared that up, but

24 possibly the Prosecution can do it for me. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of judge's questions?

Page 6050

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Only one question.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

3 Further examination by Mr. Poriouvaev:

4 Q. Did you see that wooden rifle in the museum?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are you sure that it was your rifle?

7 A. If I were not so sure, I wouldn't try to get it back.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Par?

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, I do have a question, Your

13 Honour.

14 Further cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, you told us that you learned about

16 the wooden rifles at the Heliodrom and that the issue was discussed at the

17 sports hall.

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. How many were you in the sports hall at the time you discussed it

20 and laughed about it?

21 A. I don't know exactly how many we were. We were one next to each

22 other. There were quite a few of us, but I don't know exactly.

23 Q. In that sports hall, was the issue discussed?

24 A. Not -- not much at that time. Maybe later.

25 Q. I'm asking you about the time when you laughed, when you heard

Page 6051

1 about the fact that someone was manufacturing those rifles.

2 A. It was a very small group of people, four or five people perhaps,

3 but I don't remember exactly.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank

5 you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving your evidence. We

8 might invite you back to the Hague when we have that rifle and your

9 statement if necessity requires. We are looking forward to your

10 cooperation in the future.

11 When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of the

12 room.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank the

14 Court. As I have already told you, I have been eagerly awaiting for this

15 moment. I am here for justice and nothing else. As to what it means, it

16 means a lot for my people and my country. Thank you.

17 [Witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, I would like to tender P14.5.

20 It was marked by myself -- by the witness. So that's the only document

21 that I want to tender today.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I don't think there's any objections.

23 MR. KRSNIK: No objections, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It has been admitted into

25 evidence.

Page 6052

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The Defence also has some exhibits to

2 tender, the statement, so I should like to tender D1/36 and D1/37, the two

3 statements.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Vinko Martinovic's Defence team would

6 like to tender D2/20, the map that was marked yesterday.

7 While we are waiting for our next witness, with the Court's

8 indulgence, I should just like to say a few sentences about yesterday's

9 debate. I don't know whether we have finished the debate or not, the

10 issue having to do with cumulative charging.

11 JUDGE LIU: Wait.

12 Are there any objections?

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I have one objection to the

14 witness statements. Now we have a decision by the Trial Chamber dated the

15 14th of November in respect of witness statements, prior witness

16 statements by the witness. They cannot be accepted as such, and I object

17 to that.

18 JUDGE LIU: You do not object to the admission of that map?

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, no, no. As for the map, I have no

20 objection.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This map has been admitted into

22 the evidence. Madam Registrar will give each a proper number, please.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The Prosecution's Exhibit P14.5 is now PP14.5/9.

24 The Defence exhibit D2/20 is admitted as DD2/20.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 6053

1 Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need some Court's

3 assistance, having heard what the Prosecutor has just stated, and we are,

4 of course, following your decisions very closely. But we really are not

5 quite clear as to the relevance of the 14th November decision for the

6 purposes of the present exhibits. The Prosecutor has referred to this

7 decision, but I'm not really sure as to what the Chamber's decision is

8 relevant for the purposes of the present statements.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, this Trial Chamber made a decision concerning

10 the admission of the previous statements by the witness on the 14th of

11 November which said that in the principle, all those previous statements

12 are not admitted into the evidence. This is the principle. And you

13 tendered that statement which is D1/36 and D1/37, which we'll give each an

14 ID number.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct, Your Honour.

16 But you also stated that you will take into account the contents of the

17 statements, and that is why I didn't fully understand the objection,

18 because if that is, indeed, the purpose of the objection, I have to say

19 that these are the statements on the basis of which the indictment was

20 issued. And if the Defence is unable to check the veracity of the

21 testimony by using those statements, then I really do not know what the

22 Defence can use as a basis for their cross-examination. Those statements

23 were given to the Office of the Prosecutor. I really do not understand

24 how we will be able to establish the truth if the Prosecutor himself is

25 objecting to the use of his own statements. If that was the purpose of

Page 6054

1 the objection of the Prosecutor, then I -- then I'm really at a loss. I

2 mean, I just wanted to clarify the matter.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, the approach to statements does cause a

4 problem when we are coming from two different legal systems. The system

5 which appears to have been adopted by the Tribunal is an adversarial

6 system, which means that the evidence which the Court receives is the

7 evidence that we hear from the witnesses. We don't get the statements, we

8 don't read the statements, because frequently, a witness will make a

9 statement that's much stronger than his evidence in court, and that's just

10 the way it goes. It's what the witness says in court that matters. So

11 therefore, you are given the statement, the Prosecution is given the

12 statement, and the Prosecution has to use that statement as a guideline

13 for the witness without actually leading him at very material points, and

14 the Prosecution are not permitted generally to raise evidence that doesn't

15 appear in the statements. In other words, you can't be taken by surprise,

16 because you're not prepared for something that isn't in the statement.

17 So you use the statement to cross-examine the witness, to put to

18 him, if it happens, as has happened many times here, "How are you giving

19 evidence in relation to A, B, and C, when you made two previous statements

20 when you didn't mention it at all and it's only when you say you were

21 interviewed by members of the OTP that you remembered to say something

22 which we can consider very crucial?" And you have very properly, all your

23 team, cross-examined witnesses on this basis, and that is right and

24 correct. But that doesn't mean that you then hand the statement in to us

25 as evidence. Do you see the difference? What we have to do is to rely on

Page 6055

1 your cross-examination and the direct examination.

2 Now, there will obviously be very limited circumstances - Mr. Meek

3 will know about this - there will be very limited circumstances in which

4 the statement will become an issue. And I think in relation to one of the

5 German mercenaries, indeed, we even asked to see the original statements,

6 because there was a direct denial of the contents of the original

7 statement, and therefore, it was important for us to see what this person

8 had said previously? Can he be believed? Is he believable? Do we

9 compare his evidence with someone else? In those very limited

10 circumstances, obviously, the statement should become an exhibit.

11 But because you come from an investigative system where the Judge

12 investigates and statements are extremely important and they become the

13 basis of the evidence, you want us to see the statements. But in the

14 system that we operate, we shouldn't see the statements. So it's very

15 important to have a good cross-examination. And obviously, you used the

16 statements as the basis for your cross-examination, in addition to what

17 the person said in court.

18 So for that reason, the Trial Chamber has been trying -- and it is

19 difficult. I come from a common law system; it's very easy for me to

20 accept that. Judge Diarra and Judge Liu come from a system that's

21 identical to yours. And obviously we are all on a learning curve. There

22 is no one system that dominates over the other. But I understand, we all

23 understand, this problem about statements, and that's why the Court made a

24 very clear ruling that the principle is that we do not see the witness

25 statements and they don't become exhibits. And there will be exceptions.

Page 6056

1 I hope I've clarified that for you. It's not intended to prevent

2 you from cross-examining.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour, but

4 then I believe I have properly understood the issue, because when I tender

5 a statement, it is because I would like the Court to read the statement

6 and to realise how contradictory it is to the testimony, and it is only

7 then that I tender that statement. I do not do it very often, and that is

8 why I thought that in this case, it should be taken into account and that

9 the statement should be given to Your Honours for their perusal because

10 you haven't had an opportunity to read it. You will only have an

11 opportunity to read it once it has been tendered. That was the purpose of

12 my tendering the statement. But I do understand the issue, and thank you

13 once again for your guidelines.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, as I told you just now, we will give

15 those previous statements an ID number, which means that we will read it

16 if we found it has probative value. If we found in some very limited

17 circumstances, if we found that there is a preponderance of evidence in

18 this case, this Trial Chamber will make proprio motu decisions to admit

19 those previous statements into evidence. But anyway, they will not

20 automatically come into the evidence in this system. I hope you could

21 understand. Before this Trial Chamber, the live testimony before the

22 judges comes first, since [Realtime transcript read in error "we do know"]

23 we do not know under what circumstances all those previous statements was

24 made, since we don't have a live witness to tell us about all those

25 circumstances.

Page 6057

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

2 after this discussion, we all understand what this is all about, and my

3 intention was precisely to -- for this to be taken into account after the

4 Trial Chamber has realised how different the statement is from the

5 testimony.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Par, I understand you are going to continue

7 with the conversation yesterday, and I don't believe that it is the right

8 time for this kind of discussion at this moment. And we also believe that

9 the Prosecutor has already answered your question.

10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave, I would

11 like to follow up on yesterday's response by the Prosecutor and say a few

12 words. Perhaps, this is not the right time to follow up on yesterday's

13 discussion, but I personally believe it would be a very bad idea to leave

14 certain business here unfinished and to deal with different versions,

15 different understandings of one issue in the future. That's why I want to

16 have certain things cleared up from the viewpoint of the Defence, because

17 I cannot allow the Prosecution to introduce certain things without

18 properly objecting to them.

19 I want to clarify certain points specifically with regard to

20 yesterday's testimony involving wooden rifles. Yesterday, we have heard

21 two positions. But let's take the official position taken by Mr. Scott,

22 namely, that there were several incidents involving wooden rifles. The

23 reason for this discussion in the first place was the testimony of Witness

24 Knudsen, and the question was whether this was the same incident or not.

25 We have heard the explanation that it may be a different event altogether;

Page 6058

1 however, I reviewed the transcript of Knudsen's testimony yesterday and

2 the remarks of the Prosecutor in announcement of that testimony, and the

3 Trial Chamber's instruction that everybody should make a summary of the

4 relevant charges in the indictment which would be covered by that

5 testimony.

6 In the Prosecutor's announcement of Witness Knudsen, the

7 Prosecutor said that he would be covering charges 2 to 8 from paragraph 41

8 of the indictment regarding four prisoners moving ahead of a tank and

9 carrying wooden rifles. That is why I cannot accept that Witness

10 Knudsen's testimony, since it is not identical to the testimony of this

11 eyewitness or another eyewitness, that it should be qualified as a

12 different event altogether.

13 I believe that the Prosecutor has told us clearly what this

14 testimony is about and that we have understood him properly. If he says,

15 as he said yesterday, that the Defence has not understood the indictment,

16 I should only respond that the indictment should be formulated in such a

17 way as to be understood by the Defence. Therefore, if the Prosecutor says

18 that a witness would be talking about different events to those mentioned

19 in the indictment, then he should also give us the basic parameters of

20 these events. What is the date of that incident, that other incident

21 involving wooden rifles? Who are those other prisoners who carried wooden

22 rifles? So that we can prepare our Defence adequately.

23 So, if the Prosecutor continues to stand by his claim that there

24 were several incidents involving wooden rifles, we insist that appropriate

25 witnesses would be called to support that. If the Prosecutor does not

Page 6059

1 wish to do so, then the Defence should be enabled to call such witnesses

2 themselves and to question them about this.

3 To conclude, I would like to say that for me, it is not just the

4 issue of the incident with the wooden rifles. There are analogous

5 incidents such as that involving Professors one, two, or three, and the

6 issue of whether Takac and others mistreated prisoners in only one place

7 or several places, et cetera. I would very much appreciate the Trial

8 Chamber's assistance in clarifying all these dilemmas.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I completely agree with the Defence

11 team of Mr. Vinko Martinovic, and I would like to add that this witness

12 today was not the only one with whom we have such a problem. We have

13 already had a witness who was a direct participant in the events and from

14 whom we have a deposition. And the issue arose of whether Romeo Blazevic

15 was involved in one incident or several incidents. Our position is that

16 there was only one. And unless the Prosecutor specifies the charges in

17 the indictment, we are prepared to proceed on that basis.

18 Similarly, when I asked about the film, the video film, and I

19 asked to be told what is the direct link between my clients and that

20 video. I would really like the Trial Chamber to make these issues clear

21 and definitive so that we can proceed.

22 MR. MEEK: On a different issue --

23 JUDGE LIU: No, no, Mr. Meek. Let us concentrate --

24 MR. MEEK: One thing at a time. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott. We are not going into a debate. We

Page 6060

1 just want to have a kind of balanced transcript at this stage.

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, obviously it is a debate. Defence

3 counsel have now gone on for some minutes on a number of issues. So it is

4 obviously an issue, and the Prosecution has to be given an opportunity to

5 respond.

6 First off, Your Honour, there has been extensive discussion this

7 morning about the statements. And before we leave that issue entirely -

8 because the Prosecution have not yet responded to those issues - let me

9 say this about the statements, because I think that there's a

10 misunderstanding of the statements in a number of respects.

11 In that regard, it has now gone past on the stage, but there was a

12 significant error in the transcript. It should be corrected. Because,

13 Mr. President, you said a few minutes that the Chamber does not know the

14 circumstances of which statements are made. The "not" on page 13, line 18

15 was not picked up. It says the Chamber does know the circumstances the

16 statements were made. I understand, Mr. President, you said, "Does not

17 understand." That should be corrected, page 13, line 18.

18 Mr. President, I think the time has come to put the statements in

19 proper perspective. Many, many, if not most of the criticisms, if you

20 will, of the use of the prior interview statements can properly be

21 characterised mostly as criticisms of the investigators or the statements

22 and not fair criticism or fair impeachment in many respects of the

23 witness. These are not verbatim statements. They are not like a court

24 transcript we take down word for word. We have an investigator in the

25 field who is taking a statement. He may write some things down; he may

Page 6061

1 not write other things down. He may write something down incorrectly.

2 There may be typographical errors. He may state the wrong date. He may

3 ask about certain things; he may not ask about other things.

4 We may a have investigator, Mr. President, going into the field

5 who has been -- who has just joined the OTP several weeks ago and knows

6 very little about the case. He doesn't know -- and I'm not criticising

7 either the Chamber, obviously, or the Defence, but we have to put these

8 statement into proper perspective. He may not know to ask certain

9 questions. He comes back, he brings a statement -- he or she brings a

10 statement back to the OTP. Those are the statements we have to use. It's

11 unfair to suggest or infer in all instances that the witness has been

12 inconsistent or the witness didn't say something before that he is saying

13 now. He very well may have said it, very well may have said it, and it

14 wasn't written down. We can't know that because, as you just said, Your

15 Honour, the Chamber don't know the circumstances under which the

16 statements were made. And that's exactly why, as Judge Clark will know,

17 in the common law system the statements are not evidence. We bring the

18 witnesses in here, and the witnesses testify.

19 But I think the time has come, with all respect, that the use and

20 perspective on these statements has to be clarified. So to repeatedly put

21 to a witness, "You didn't say that in your statement three years ago,"

22 they might -- they weren't asked. Maybe the investigator should be

23 criticised. Maybe I should take the investigator aside and say, "Why

24 didn't you ask these questions?" But it's not a fair criticism,

25 necessarily - we don't know - of the witness, and I think that has to be

Page 6062

1 clear.

2 Secondly, turning completely to the issue of the indictment,

3 Mr. President, I can only suggest -- and perhaps it's been sometime since

4 counsel have read the indictment. If counsel and the Chamber would turn

5 their attention to paragraphs 35 through 42 of the indictment, I think the

6 answer is clear on the face of the amended indictment. And I do invite

7 the Chamber, in all seriousness, to turn to those parts of the indictment,

8 if not now, Mr. President. If you don't want to take the time now, I

9 suggest the Chamber do so in the near future.

10 Those paragraphs relate specifically, just as Defence counsel said

11 a moment ago - I'll try to slow down a bit - relate specifically to counts

12 2 through 8. It says that right on the top of page 11. It then goes on

13 to say, in paragraph 35: "Between about April 1993 and at least through

14 January 1994, Naletilic, Martinovic, and their subordinates forced Bosnian

15 Muslim detainees from various detention centres under the authority of the

16 HVO to perform labour in military operations and to be used as human

17 shields, on the Bulevar and Santiceva Streets," et cetera, et cetera.

18 Paragraphs 36 and 37 go on to -- they talk about prisoners being

19 killed on the confrontation line, prisoners being used for forced labour,

20 prisoners being used for human shields.

21 It then goes on to say specifically, in paragraph number 40:

22 "Throughout" - I'm quoting - "Throughout this period, Vinko Martinovic as

23 the commander of the sub-unit Mrmak or Vinko Skrobo, regularly" -

24 regularly - "used detainees for forced labour in military operations and

25 as human shields along the confrontation lines in the city of Mostar."

Page 6063

1 Then paragraph 41 very specifically talks about one particular

2 wooden rifle incident with four men walking in front of the tank. That is

3 one very specific incident. But it has never been the Prosecution case,

4 and it is not said in the indictment, that was the only incident. It says

5 clearly in the indictment this was a continuing pattern and practice, and

6 it's evidence.

7 It then goes on to say in paragraph 42: "On the same day, and

8 about the same time, approximately 15 prisoners and detainees were

9 deployed as a human shields in another part of the Bulevar also under

10 Martinovic's command."

11 Now, Mr. President, Your Honours, the indictment is clear on

12 this. I stated our position yesterday. I state our position again

13 today. I do not change it. It is the same. The Defence has been on fair

14 notice, both from the indictment and in the 65 ter witness summaries,

15 which have raised these issues over a year ago, so this is simply not

16 fair. There is no effort - as I've said before, and as I will say again -

17 there is no effort to add new or additional charges. They are charged

18 with what they are charged with, counts 2 through 8.

19 Paragraph 41 specifically talks about one particular incident.

20 Other parts of paragraphs 35 through 42 talk about -- clearly provide for

21 other similar incidents. There is no confusion. There is no good-faith

22 confusion about this issue. And that is the Prosecution's position, Your

23 Honour. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Mr. Krsnik, we have already said that we are not going into a

Page 6064

1 debate. We have a witness waiting outside, and we have a very tight

2 schedule.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I beg you, for just one

4 minute. Precisely as my colleague Mr. Par said, the Prosecution is always

5 introducing something through the back door and saying something which is

6 absolutely not the truth. It is not true, Your Honour, that statements

7 were taken on the ground by investigators who don't know the first thing.

8 We have statements which were given first to the AID, the secret Muslim

9 police.

10 Investigators have been on the ground since 1995, and we monitored

11 the names of investigators who appear in our case. All of them are

12 experienced men who have worked since 1995 up to this day, with the

13 support of the secret Muslim police called AID, and I, of course, mean

14 investigators of the OTP.

15 And also, the Prosecution, Mr. Stringer, Mr. Poriouvaev, have

16 talked to many witnesses personally. And the greatest misgiving of this

17 Defence -- and the Defence has been treading on this ground very carefully

18 and trying to point out to this Chamber that these witnesses have been

19 guided by the magic hand of some secret police, and we have been trying to

20 point this out very decently and treat them with kid gloves.

21 So the claim of the Prosecution that these details are not

22 important is absolutely not true. All these statements are very

23 important. All of the witnesses have read their previous statements and

24 said that they were complete and truthful. Mind you, truthful. We are

25 now in front of the International War Crimes Tribunal, after all.

Page 6065

1 Secondly, we have read this indictment, and we know it by heart.

2 That is precisely why we are reacting this way, because we want a fair

3 trial. Yes, the Prosecutor did say that the counts covered such and such,

4 but it is still a crucial point whether Romeo Blazevic was in Siroki

5 Brijeg once or several times. We have to clarify this before the Court

6 and with the Prosecutor, because if he was there only once, then it is a

7 totally different charge. It makes a lot of difference whether he was in

8 Ljubuski once or 20 times.

9 The same thing with this latest incident, because we know it was

10 only one incident, and the Prosecution is trying to spread it across a

11 period of time.

12 I am sorry to have taken your time, but I had to say this.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the previous statement, we believe that

14 this Trial Chamber has made a ruling on the 14th of November, and we also

15 made an oral explanation concerning the meaning of that ruling. So I hope

16 in the future there is no debate on this issue.

17 As for the second issue, we all believe that the Defence counsel

18 have the full right to challenge every detail of the live testimony of any

19 witness before this courtroom. It is also our desire to make sure whether

20 certain person has been to a certain place once or twice or 20 times. We

21 believe that is essential to the case and to the right of the accused. We

22 also believe that the answer from the Prosecution has satisfied the

23 questions put forward by Mr. Par on this issue. We have the views

24 correctly recorded in the transcript. In the future time, when we

25 evaluate all this evidence, we will take into full consideration of the

Page 6066

1 views expressed today by both sides.

2 Let us go on with the next witness.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Mr. Bos will be handling the next

4 witness.

5 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures you are going to

6 request for the next witness, Mr. Bos?

7 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. And we may need to make some

8 technical adjustments because the next witness has asked for face/voice

9 distortion and a pseudonym. So I think that the technical people need

10 10 minutes to do this.

11 JUDGE LIU: He is from that area?

12 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, he is. And he is afraid for the

13 security of his family if he would testify without protective measures.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

15 I guess there's no objections. Your request is granted.

16 We'll break for about 10 minutes. We'll resume at 10.35 a.m.

17 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

18 --- On resuming at 10.39 a.m.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my client is not

22 feeling well. He would like to leave the courtroom, but we can, of

23 course, continue with our usual schedule. And I don't think he will be

24 able to attend the hearing tomorrow. He has the flu, and I don't know how

25 he's going to feel tomorrow. But of course, we can continue in his

Page 6067

1 absence, both today and tomorrow if he should not feel well.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

3 We are also worried about the health of your client. I hope he could have

4 a good rest and speedy recovery.

5 Mr. Naletilic, you may leave now.

6 [The Accused Naletilic withdrew]

7 WITNESS: WITNESS PP

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Would you please make the

10 solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to

11 you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

15 Yes, Mr. Bos.

16 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. Maybe before we start, I'll

17 mention the relevance to the indictment for this witness. It's relevant

18 to background, paragraphs 7, 10, 11; superior authority, paragraphs 14 and

19 17; general allegations, paragraphs 20 and 21; count 1, paragraphs 26 to

20 28, paragraph 30, 34(a), 34(b), and 34(d); counts 2 to 8, paragraphs 35 to

21 38, paragraphs 40 to 42, and paragraph 44; count 21, paragraph 57.

22 Examined by Mr. Bos:

23 Q. Good morning, Witness. Witness, the Trial Chamber has granted the

24 protective measures you requested for. That means, first of all, the

25 image of your face will be distorted and the voice will also be distorted

Page 6068

1 and you will get a pseudonym. Now, in order to refer to your pseudonym,

2 you're now going to be shown a sheet of paper which has your name on it

3 and the name of your pseudonym. I would like you to confirm that this is

4 indeed your name which is on that sheet of paper.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Witness, where were you living before the war

7 started?

8 A. I was living in Gacko.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Mr. Bos, what's this gentleman's pseudonym?

10 MR. BOS: I'm sorry. The pseudonym is Witness PP.

11 Q. In order to clarify this, so Witness, if I'm going to refer to

12 you, I'll be referring to you as Witness PP, which is your pseudonym. Do

13 you understand that?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Now, Witness, is it correct that when the war with the Serbs

16 started, that you and your family were expelled from Gacko and that you

17 went to Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And is it also correct that on the 16th of March, 1993, when you

20 were living in Sarajevo, that you got wounded as a result of the war?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Were you a soldier at that time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And how -- what kind of injuries did you get on that day?

25 A. I was injured in my arms and in my eye. At that time, I was

Page 6069

1 living in Hrasnica and there was no eye doctor there at that time, so I

2 was transported to Konjic and from Konjic to Mostar, where I was

3 hospitalised in Safet Mujic Hospital. I underwent treatment there until

4 the 1st of July.

5 Q. I know you're not from Mostar, but do you know whether this

6 hospital is located in West or in East Mostar?

7 A. The hospital was in the area which was under the HVO control. I'm

8 not -- I can't tell you exactly which side it was, but I think it was the

9 right side of -- it was on the right bank of the river.

10 Q. Now, you've testified that you -- so you got wounded on the 16th

11 of March and that you remained in that hospital until the 1st of July; is

12 that correct? We are talking about the year 1993.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, while you were hospitalised in that period, did you notice

15 that there were -- that the tensions arose between the Croats and the

16 Muslims?

17 A. No, nothing in particular. I mean, I didn't have much contact

18 with other people, because I was in hospital on the 9th of May when these

19 activities started at around 5.00 or 6.00 in the morning.

20 Q. But how did you know, then, that activities started on the 9th of

21 May? How did you find that out?

22 A. The hospital was located at a critical location near Santiceva

23 Street where most of the activity was taking place. We could hear

24 detonations and there were talks about HVO units coming to the area.

25 Actually, they did come to us. They checked on us. They were telling us

Page 6070

1 that they had been attacked by the army and so on and so forth. So this

2 is how we realised that the whole thing had started.

3 Q. So are you saying that HVO soldiers did come into the hospital,

4 and what would they do if they would enter the hospital?

5 A. They came to the hospital on a regular basis. They were members

6 of the Convicts Battalion. The reason for their regular visits to the

7 hospital because -- was because they were members of this very special

8 unit. They came to the hospital to mistreat us. They beat the patients.

9 They treated us as extremists. And, for example, although those were

10 seriously wounded patients, four of my colleagues had also had eye

11 injuries, and with such injuries they were eventually taken to the camps.

12 They called us terrorists and things like that, but we had nothing to do

13 with that. We were merely patients at the hospital.

14 Q. Now, you say that these members were -- that these HVO soldiers

15 were members of the Convicts Battalion. How did you know that?

16 A. The Convicts Battalion -- we knew that they were members of the

17 Convicts Battalion because they boasted about being members of that

18 battalion and having Stela as their chief. They had special kinds of

19 insignia which depicted a head of a dog, and they were named after Stela's

20 dog, I think. Mrmak, something like that; that was the name of the dog.

21 And they were members of this Convicts Battalion, Martinovic's battalion.

22 I cannot recall his full name, but at any rate they were members of this

23 Convicts Battalion.

24 Q. Now, you've testified how the soldiers treated the patients. How

25 did they treat the doctors at the hospital?

Page 6071

1 A. Badly, because the doctors who were there were rather fair and

2 correct towards us, regardless of the ethnic background, and they

3 protected us as best as they could. So that was the reason why they

4 didn't treat them nicely. They verbally abused them as well, accusing

5 them of keeping us there.

6 Q. Do you recall an incident with a doctor by the name of Amira

7 Camdzic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell us about that?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do understand the need

12 for leading questions in the introductory part of the testimony, but this

13 is no longer an introductory part of the testimony, so the question how

14 did they treat the doctors at the hospital was, I think, enough for the

15 witness to provide his answer. However, if we should -- if the Prosecutor

16 should go beyond that, I think that he would be leading the witness, which

17 is inappropriate at this point in his testimony.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos, proceed another way.

19 MR. BOS:

20 Q. Witness, do you recall that there was a female eye doctor in the

21 hospital?

22 A. Yes. Her name was Amira Camdzic. The incident took place on the

23 1st of July when I was taken to the camp. She tried to protect five of us

24 patients, but a member of the Convicts Battalion - I'm trying to remember

25 his name, Dzemo Skobalj - he intervened. He actually assaulted this lady

Page 6072

1 doctor. He pushed her away against the wall. He did so merely because

2 she was trying to help her patients. That was the only reason why he

3 pushed her away, why he attacked her so rudely, simply because she was

4 trying to help her patients.

5 Q. Did you find out what happened to her on that day?

6 A. I was then taken to the camp, but I managed to escape from the

7 camp. And once when I got over to the area which was under the BH army

8 control, I inquired about this lady doctor, and I was told that she had

9 been expelled but was killed by a shell that exploded somewhere.

10 Q. Now, you've said that -- what happened to you on the 1st of July?

11 Could you tell us again.

12 A. On the 1st of July, between 12.00 and 1.00 p.m., five of us were

13 sitting in front of the hospital at the entrance to the hospital, and a

14 group consisting of seven soldiers arrived. And one of those seven told

15 us to move away. There were talks about the northern camp or -- in

16 Bijelo Polje, some of their relatives may have been killed. Dzemo Skobalj

17 was also amongst them. And he told us something like, "You stupid balija

18 motherfuckers" -- I do apologise to the Court for using this language, but

19 he verbally abused us and was accusing us. He started mistreating us,

20 telling us that we were spies, snipers, how he had heard about us. And

21 then they lined us up against a wall and tied our hands.

22 I was trying to reason with Dzemo Skobalj because I knew him, but

23 he wouldn't let me speak. And then, as I told you, this lady doctor,

24 Amira Camdzic, tried to protect us, but he attacked her. And eventually

25 we were taken away from there. I don't know the town of Mostar, but I

Page 6073

1 think that we were taken to the students' campus there where there already

2 quite a few women and children. That same evening, we were put on the

3 buses and driven away. I don't know exactly what way we took, what route

4 we took, but eventually we ended up at the Dretelj camp.

5 Q. You've given us a long story, and I just wanted to clarify a few

6 things. First of all, you told us that you knew Dzemo Skobalj -- that you

7 knew him from before. How did you know him?

8 A. Dzemo and I come from the same town. We went to school together.

9 We knew each other from school. And when the war started, I found myself

10 at the Igman Mount together with Dzemo. He had come to Igman together

11 with the HOS. There was a HOS unit deployed there, and that is where I

12 found him and made contact with him. But later on, he was transferred or

13 he went to Mostar and became a member of the Convicts Battalion there.

14 Q. What is his ethnic background?

15 A. He's a Bosniak.

16 Q. Why do you think he became a member of the Convicts Battalion, if

17 he was a Bosniak?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

19 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that calls for pure

20 speculation. I object.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, can you skip this question.

22 MR. BOS: Yes, I'll skip this question, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, so you were taken to a collection centre in Mostar, and

24 then that you were taken then to Dretelj. How many of you were taken to

25 Dretelj?

Page 6074

1 A. As far as my bus is concerned, there may have been about a hundred

2 people there. I cannot be more specific. Hundred approximately, where I

3 was. Though, there were other people coming from elsewhere. I was put in

4 one of the tin hangars, in a metal hangar at the Dretelj camp. But we

5 didn't quite understand at the time what was happening, and so we were

6 not -- I wasn't paying much attention to who else was coming.

7 Q. This group of a hundred people, were these women and children as

8 well or just men, and were these people civilians or soldiers?

9 A. There were only men on those buses. Whether they were soldiers or

10 not, I don't know, but I know that they had been rounded up from their

11 homes. I think they were civilians, but I don't know.

12 Q. Could you briefly tell us what the conditions in the Dretelj camp

13 were.

14 A. The conditions in the Dretelj camp were horrible, and I'm telling

15 you this from my personal experience. I was put up in one of the tin

16 hangars where there were some five or six hundred people there. The

17 conditions were terrible. We had to relieve ourselves inside the hangar.

18 There were very -- there were many elderly and sick people there, people

19 who were dying because we hadn't received any water for about three or

20 four days. The month of July, can you imagine what it means? The area of

21 Capljina is very hot in that period of the year.

22 People were being taken out of the hangar, beaten up, killed

23 outside. They would open fire inside the hangar. People got wounded.

24 Their wounds festered because no one could dress their wounds. It was

25 terrible. But I didn't stay much longer at the Dretelj. I was then

Page 6075

1 transferred to the Heliodrom, which was somewhat better.

2 Q. Just one question on what you just said. You said that people

3 were taken out and killed outside. Did you ever witness a killing

4 yourself when you were at the Dretelj camp?

5 A. A man was taken out of the hangar on one occasion. He was

6 stripped of his clothes, and they made him lie down on the concrete floor,

7 on the concrete asphalt actually, which burnt his skin. Because it was

8 very hot and he was made to lie down on the asphalt. And he was beaten up

9 there. All kinds of things happened.

10 MR. BOS: I think we can break now, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 11.30.

12 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

15 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Witness, how long did you stay in Dretelj?

17 A. About 19 days.

18 Q. And when -- where were you taken next?

19 A. To the Heliodrom in Mostar.

20 Q. When you were taken from Dretelj to the Heliodrom? With how many

21 prisoners were you taken there?

22 A. Many, because they had come to the hangar where I was. They said

23 that Mostar people should be separated and taken out. So I was included

24 into that group of Mostar men. And the same happened in other hangars. I

25 saw a file of vehicles, cars, trucks. I don't know exactly how many, but

Page 6076

1 about seven buses, I think, and I was in one of them. There were more

2 trucks in that column. I can't say precisely how many came to Dretelj --

3 sorry, to Heliodrom from Dretelj.

4 Q. When you arrived at the Heliodrom, where did they take you?

5 A. I arrived at the Heliodrom together with that group, which was

6 together with me on the bus, and we were put in a gym. The gym was

7 packed. There were five or six hundred people inside. That's where I

8 was.

9 Q. Was this gym -- was this one big space, or were there separate

10 rooms?

11 A. There were two big halls under one roof, but it was two separate

12 halls. I was in one of them. The other hall was the same, but it was

13 also packed, so there were about five or six hundred people, maybe even

14 more. It's just my estimate.

15 Q. Whilst you were at the Heliodrom, were you ever taken out to

16 perform labour?

17 A. I was taken out to work on a regular basis. We went to Buna and

18 Santiceva Street, to Sovici, Doljani, Risovac, and Rastani. Although I'm

19 not familiar with the town of Mostar and I'm not able to place the

20 location exactly, but I know it was in the town of Mostar.

21 Q. Now, you've mentioned several places. Could you tell the Court

22 what kind of work did you have to do, the various type of tasks you had to

23 perform.

24 A. Specifically, I'll tell you what kind of jobs I did. I picked

25 cherries at Buna. I think it's called the cherry field, Visnja, a

Page 6077

1 plantation where I spent several days. For two days, I dug trenches in

2 Mostar. I worked carrying stuff out of private apartments and houses and

3 loading them onto trucks. In Rastani, I dug trenches again, built

4 bunkers. In Sovici, Doljani, Risovac, the same thing all over again,

5 before I arrived at Santiceva Street near the health centre. That was my

6 last day, the last day I did labour before I escaped.

7 Q. Now, I'd like to go into detail on some of the tasks that you had

8 to perform, but before I do, could you please describe what the regular

9 procedure was when you were taken out for labour? How did that work?

10 Would people come and pick you up? Could you tell us about this?

11 A. They came to pick us up every morning. I'll tell you specifically

12 about places around Mostar where we went. Dinko or Vinko Martinovic came

13 to collect us. I don't know. Sometimes it was Dinko, sometimes it was

14 Vinko. There were two men. He came with two soldiers or two policemen

15 from the Convicts Battalion every morning, and they took us away every

16 morning. They made up groups of people which were sent to various places,

17 which did different jobs. Sometimes we carried stuff out of houses and

18 apartments. Sometimes we filled sacks with sand. Sometimes we took

19 bunkers apart. Sometimes it all happened in the line of fire and people

20 got killed. People were asked to destroy trenches.

21 Q. Can I just interrupt you there? You've said in the morning there

22 was this person who you referred to as either Dinko or Vinko Martinovic.

23 He would come and collect prisoners. Were you always collected by this

24 person?

25 A. Martinovic came as a driver to pick us up every day. As regards

Page 6078

1 Stela, he came every day. But the people who accompanied us were not the

2 same every day. They changed.

3 Q. Did you always work with the same prisoners? If a group would be

4 collected, would it always be the same prisoners, or would that vary?

5 A. No, it was not always the same men. They changed. Sometimes

6 people were wounded and couldn't go out any longer. Sometimes they were

7 killed. Sometimes people were sick and were not able to go out to work.

8 Anyway, it was not always the same group, so to speak. They changed.

9 Q. Would a person just come and say, "Today I'm going to pick this,

10 this, and this person," or would they have a list, or how did that work?

11 A. Somebody would come with a list; and if somebody on the list was

12 missing or unavailable, then he would just point his finger at anyone in

13 the hall.

14 Q. Now, so you've stated that you would usually be picked up by this

15 person which you either refer to as Vinko or Dinko Martinovic. Is that

16 what you said? Is that correct?

17 A. Sometimes it was Dinko; sometimes it was Vinko. It was the same

18 person, but he introduced himself on some occasions as Vinko and on other

19 occasions as Dinko. But it's the same person. Martinovic, sorry.

20 Q. In what kind of vehicle would he come and collect you?

21 A. On a Dais truck.

22 Q. Do you remember the colour of that vehicle?

23 A. A blue truck.

24 Q. Could you give us a description of this man which is called either

25 Dinko or Vinko.

Page 6079

1 A. He was about 180, 185 centimetres tall, well-built, brownish hair

2 with a parting in his hair. He was about 80 kilos, in my estimate.

3 Q. And do you know for whom this Dinko or Vinko worked? Who was his

4 superior?

5 A. Stela.

6 Q. How do you know that?

7 A. I know because he would say, whenever he came, "The boss ordered,"

8 or "Stela ordered," things like that.

9 Q. Did you ever see Stela yourself?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And did you ever see this Dinko or Vinko together with Stela?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was it that you saw this Dinko or Vinko together with Stela?

14 Do you remember the date?

15 A. I remember that they were together on the day when I escaped. He

16 said that he had left a group behind somewhere at the entrance to Mostar,

17 about 10 men. He was telling him where he had left whom.

18 Q. Sorry, if you say "He was telling him where he had left whom," who

19 do you refer to as "he" and who is "him"?

20 A. Vinko was reporting to Stela where he had left each group of men.

21 That's what I meant.

22 Q. You've said that you were taken out in groups. How many prisoners

23 would be in a group on average?

24 A. When they were taking them out?

25 Q. Yes, when they were taken out of the gym. You said you were taken

Page 6080

1 out in groups. How big was a group?

2 A. Well, a bus full, about 30 people or so.

3 Q. Do you know how many groups on a normal day would be taken out of

4 the gym?

5 A. I can't say precisely. Sometimes I know that the gym would be

6 only half full; sometimes it would be empty because everyone had gone

7 out.

8 Q. Now, earlier in your statement, you said that you sometimes were

9 taken to private houses to take out goods from private houses. How many

10 times did you do this?

11 A. Yes. On a couple of occasions, I did that kind of work. We took

12 goods out of houses and loaded them onto trucks. They were then

13 transported to Siroki Brijeg. Those were chest drawers, refrigerators,

14 household appliances, things like that. We did that two or three times.

15 Q. These houses where you took out these goods, were these houses

16 inhabited by people?

17 A. Of course they were inhabited, but those people who lived in them

18 had been expelled, driven out.

19 Q. And on those occasions that you were taken out to perform these

20 tasks, who drove you? Was it always Dinko who -- on those occasions who

21 took you from the gym, or don't you -- well, who took you from the gym?

22 I'm sorry.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

24 MR. BOS: I'll rephrase it.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a problem here

Page 6081

1 with the name of this person who took out men from the Heliodrom. Mr. Bos

2 is perfectly aware of this. We also know that this problem had appeared

3 in the earlier statement of this witness. We are all eagerly expecting to

4 hear what this witness is going to say, which name he's going to mention,

5 and Mr. Bos is now using both names in his questioning in order to end up

6 using only one name. Since this is a controversial issue, I would like

7 him to refrain from doing that. I don't think he's doing it on purpose,

8 but I do wish to point it out as something unacceptable.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, first, I believe that Mr. Bos will clear it up

10 for us. And if not, secondly, you have the full opportunity to do your

11 cross-examination concerning with those names, if you're not satisfied

12 with the question put forward by Mr. Bos.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My objection is to the leading question,

14 leading the witness to only one name.

15 MR. BOS: I'll rephrase the question.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Rephrase the question and try to make things

17 clearer for us.

18 MR. BOS:

19 Q. On those occasions that you were taken to take out goods from

20 private houses, who drove you from the Heliodrom to those places?

21 A. The driver was this Dinko. I'll try to clarify it for the ladies

22 and gentlemen. On some days, it was Vinko. On other days, it was Dinko,

23 to us, because sometimes we would call out to him, "Hey, Vinko." He would

24 curse our mothers and say, "I'm not Vinko. I'm Dinko." That's the

25 problem, and you know it very well, gentlemen.

Page 6082

1 Q. And what was his last name?

2 A. Martinovic.

3 Q. You've mentioned a couple of places where you also performed

4 labour, and one of them was Sovici Doljani. Do you recall when you were

5 taken there?

6 A. It was in mid-August, if I remember correctly.

7 Q. Who took you there?

8 A. I don't know who took us there. All I know is we went there on a

9 truck. We were picked up from the gym in the middle of the night, and we

10 arrived at Sovici early in the morning. We had travelled all night before

11 arriving there.

12 Q. What kind of work did you have to do there?

13 A. Cleaning houses in Sovici. We dug trenches, chopped wood. We

14 buried dead cattle because combat operations had taken place there a

15 couple of days previously. There was a lot of dead cattle, and we buried

16 it.

17 Q. Do you know which HVO units were involved in the combat --

18 whether -- what kind of units were involved in the combat operations in

19 Sovici Doljani? Do you know that?

20 A. I can't tell you that very precisely. I wasn't there at the time

21 of the combat operations.

22 Q. Now, whilst you were working at confrontation line, did you ever

23 see prisoners getting mistreated?

24 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

25 Q. Can you give me some examples of what you've seen?

Page 6083

1 A. Well, one specific case happened on Santiceva Street. We were

2 digging trenches shielded by sandbags, and one member of the Convicts

3 Battalion walked up. He was drunk, and he threw a hand grenade, killing

4 one man. Muharem Gudic was his name. There were other cases, but I'm

5 describing one which I witnessed personally. And they called us names and

6 verbally abused us. They were saying things like, "Balijas are kicking

7 our asses and throwing hand grenades."

8 Q. Were you ever mistreated, physically mistreated, yourself?

9 A. Yes. I got one beating at Dretelj. There were provocation,

10 frequent provocations. Sometimes they would just hit you, slap you,

11 verbally abuse you, and then beat you. That was the kind of thing that

12 happened.

13 Q. Were you ever taken out to bury bodies?

14 A. In Risovac, when I worked there, a cemetery was dug there, graves,

15 that is. That's what we call them. It's a Muslim term. I dug a total of

16 nine graves.

17 Q. Could you please repeat the name where this was, because it didn't

18 appear in the transcript.

19 A. Risovac, near Sovici.

20 Q. When you actually dug these graves, did you also see the bodies

21 that were put in the grave?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know at the time you were working there how many graves in

24 total were dug?

25 A. I know about nine.

Page 6084

1 Q. This cemetery, what kind of cemetery was this?

2 A. It was not a cemetery. It was a field at Risovac, not a cemetery

3 at all.

4 Q. When was the last day of your detention at the Heliodrom?

5 A. My last day of detention was the 19th September, 1993, when I made

6 a run for it while acting as a human shield.

7 Q. Witness PP, let's go into detail on that day. First of all, what

8 time in the morning were you picked up from the Heliodrom and who picked

9 you up?

10 A. It was 6.00 a.m. Vinko Martinovic came, or Dinko, to avoid

11 confusion. He came to pick us up with two guards, escorts, as you wish,

12 on a truck. They loaded 31 of us on a truck. Some 10 people did not go

13 with us all the way. They were left just before the bridge to work on a

14 house just before the entrance to Mostar. About 10 or 15 of us arrived at

15 the Health Centre.

16 Q. Okay. What happened when you arrived at the Health Centre?

17 A. We were unloaded from the truck, and we were standing in that yard

18 outside the Health Centre. They divided us into groups, and my group was

19 given the job of cleaning rifles.

20 Q. How many members were in your group?

21 A. Three or four of us in the group where I was, those of us who were

22 cleaning the rifles, three or four men. There were several groups of

23 people.

24 Q. Please continue. What happened after that?

25 A. [No translation]

Page 6085

1 JUDGE LIU: We have --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter's microphone was not on.

3 MR. BOS:

4 Q. Witness, maybe you can start again because the interpreters didn't

5 catch the beginning of your question. Can you start again from the

6 beginning?

7 A. From the time we arrived at the Health Centre?

8 Q. No, from the time that you were cleaning the rifles.

9 A. So I was part of that group that was cleaning the weapons. Four

10 men were taken to a cellar which was next to the building. I don't know

11 what was going on inside, but at one point, I saw one of them being taken

12 out. He appeared to have passed out --

13 JUDGE CLARK: Could you ask the witness to slow down, please, if

14 he can.

15 MR. BOS:

16 Q. Witness PP, I think you heard the request of the Judge. If you

17 could slow down in your story so that everyone can understand what you're

18 saying.

19 A. So I saw them taking one of the young men out of the cellar. He

20 appeared to have lost consciousness. I saw them trying to help him come

21 to.

22 Then a man by the name of Dado, whom they refer to as Dado,

23 arrived. I remember that he was a very tall man, 190, 195. He had dark

24 complexion and a beard, and he told me to follow him into the cellar. And

25 I went to the cellar, and I saw Mr. Stela sitting at a desk which had a

Page 6086

1 map on it. And he told me to sit down, and he said "If you behave

2 properly, you will have everything. You will have all kinds of

3 privileges. You will be able to go to third countries. No one will harm

4 you in any way. However, you should behave yourself and do as we say.

5 You have to be a good boy."

6 Q. Again, the interpreters have difficulties in keeping up with you

7 because you talk very fast. So again, I would ask you to talk a bit more

8 slowly. While -- let me ask you a few questions on this. So you said you

9 were taken to the basement and that you -- that you saw Stela behind --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. First of all, how did you know that this man was Stela?

12 A. Because I had seen him before.

13 Q. And when had you seen him before?

14 A. I had seen him when coming to work, when he came to verbally abuse

15 us, calling us names, balijas, cattle, things like that, when he came to

16 visit us as we were digging or doing some other kind of work. Mostly in

17 the morning when we were brought to work, he would show up. So I knew his

18 face. I knew that this was Stela.

19 Q. How many occasions had you seen Stela before that time you saw him

20 behind the desk?

21 A. One or two -- two occasions. I remember two occasions.

22 Q. And do you recall on those two occasions where you were actually

23 working?

24 A. In that same area. Again, I'm really not familiar with the town

25 of Mostar. He was usually in the area around Bulevar, and that was the

Page 6087

1 location where I most frequently worked.

2 Q. Well, so you came into the basement, you saw Stela behind the

3 desk. Were there any other people in the basement at that time?

4 A. There was no one else in the cellar except for this very short man

5 by the name of Dolma. When I entered the cellar, he was standing at the

6 door. So I sat down, and, again, as I told you, he told me that if I --

7 if I behaved properly, if I'm a good boy, I would -- he would -- that I

8 would be able to leave. And I said what I was supposed to do, and he said

9 that I would go across the street; if there were any wounded persons

10 there, that I should recover them, pull them out. And he said, "If

11 everything is fine, if the work is done successfully, you will -- you will

12 be okay."

13 So they brought me a uniform, I put a uniform on and got out of

14 the cellar. This person by the name of Dado gave me a backpack full of

15 stones. He put it on my back. And Stela brought a bottle and -- an empty

16 bottle and put it in my pocket, telling me that it was supposed to be my

17 Motorola. Once again, Stela appeared with a cardboard box. He put it on

18 a wall, and he said, "Give this cattle here two bandages each," so each of

19 us was given two bandages.

20 Q. Can I just interrupt you again? When you were given this uniform,

21 were you the only one given this uniform, or were there other prisoners

22 who were also given this uniform?

23 A. The three other men had already been given uniforms. They were in

24 the cellar as I was cleaning the rifle. When this young man fainted - I

25 don't know exactly what happened to him - they came out of the cellar and

Page 6088

1 I got in. So they were dressed in the same uniforms.

2 Q. Now, and after you were taken out of the cellar, were you taken to

3 that other group of prisoners who already had a uniform on?

4 A. It all happened in the same area, outside the building, the same

5 yard.

6 Q. Well, you testified that you were also given a rucksack and that

7 Stela had put something in your jacket. What did he put in your jacket?

8 A. A plastic bottle. He put it in my pocket, and he said, "The

9 balijas will think it's a Motorola."

10 Q. And what happened after that?

11 A. A young man showed up. I don't know who he was. And he brought

12 four wooden rifles. I was to be given one of them. Dado brought us to a

13 passage between those two buildings, and he said, "You should cross over

14 the street and you should cross that lane as well," because it was a

15 two-lane street. "Wait for us at that building, at the corner of that

16 building there."

17 I remember two news-stands on the sidewalk near the street. I

18 passed those news-stands, and I reached the other street. And Dado spoke

19 again, and he said, "Not that building. The one on the left," and he

20 again cursed me. I don't know what was happening exactly at that moment

21 because the tank opened fire. I was getting lost. But I had managed to

22 reach the building.

23 Q. Witness, I know this must be difficult for you, but I think we

24 will have to go a bit more slower through this evidence. First of all,

25 what did they ask you to do? What was your assignment when you -- after

Page 6089

1 you were given the rifle? What did they want you to do? I think you

2 said --

3 A. Combat activities were supposed to start at any moment. The area

4 of Cernica Mala - that was the name of the neighbourhood - was where we

5 were supposed to cross over to the other side of the street so the members

6 of the Convicts Battalion could also cross over. And in case of death or

7 wounding, we were supposed to recover either the bodies of the wounded

8 people from that spot. So we were supposed to reach that building. We

9 took to the left of the street, and --

10 Q. Sorry, I'm going to stop you there. When you gave your statement

11 to the investigators, is it correct that there was a sketch drawn of the

12 area and the places where you were and where you were actually going? Do

13 you recall that?

14 A. Yes, I do. I recall it quite well, although I was afraid. But I

15 do remember the details.

16 Q. Okay. Well, in order to assist the story you're going to tell us

17 now, I'm going to show you the sketch. And maybe with reference to the

18 sketch, you can explain us exactly what happened.

19 MR. BOS: Your Honours, the sketch I would like to mark is

20 Exhibit P888. The Defence has already received a copy. I have copies for

21 the Judges. And it has to be submitted under seal because the name of the

22 witness is on the sketch, and I have put a redaction on one of them so we

23 can put it on the ELMO. I have covered the name of the witness on the

24 sketch so that we can ...

25 Q. Now, Witness, before you, you see this sketch. Do you recognise

Page 6090

1 this sketch?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I would like you to explain - and try to do it as slowly as

4 possible - what happened to you from the moment that you were given the

5 wooden rifles and you were ordered to go out. And maybe you can use the

6 pointer and the sketch to indicate where you actually went and what

7 happened. And if you can refer with the pointer, you have to refer to the

8 sketch which is under the overhead projector. You can't point to the

9 scene, because otherwise we won't be able to see it.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bos, I'm sorry to interrupt you. But this

11 witness gave very crucial evidence in a very, very fast manner. And

12 perhaps to help the Trial Chamber, you could go back and take it line by

13 line.

14 For instance, it's not clear when he was in the basement whether

15 he was alone for a short period, whether he ever joined anybody else,

16 whether they got joint instructions, single instructions. It's just a

17 little bit rushed. And it's not your fault, and it's not the witness's

18 fault, because obviously it's stressful, but if you could just stop every

19 now and again and go over it.

20 And I'm sorry, Witness, that I'm asking you to repeat what must be

21 very stressful for you. But it's important evidence, and I'm afraid that

22 we might not get the full picture if we don't hear it more slowly. I'm

23 sorry to ask you to go over some of it a little more slowly.

24 MR. BOS:

25 Q. Witness, you've heard what the Judge said. So let's go back a

Page 6091

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4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts Pages 6091 to 6104.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 6105

1 little in time and let me try to clarify some of the --

2 JUDGE CLARK: Specifically, Mr. Bos, the instructions in the

3 basement, and then the appearance of somebody with a box in which there

4 were wooden rifles. We just have nothing about the distribution of the

5 rifles.

6 MR. BOS:

7 Q. Witness, when you were in the basement and Stela was giving you

8 instructions, were the other detainees with you?

9 A. In the basement --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

11 MR. MEEK: Mr. President and Your Honours, I understand the

12 questions that Judge Clark just had, but I believe I object to that

13 question. It assumes facts not in evidence. The witness already

14 testified it wasn't the individual named Stela who gave instructions in

15 the basement; it was a different individual. So I object to the form of

16 the question, and I also object that it's leading. I understand that any

17 objections to asked and answered would be improper. But the leanings

18 of the question - it assumes facts not in evidence - I object to those.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos, would you please make it clear for us and

20 rephrase your question.

21 MR. BOS: I'll rephrase my question.

22 JUDGE LIU: By the way, what's the specific date of that

23 incident? You may also ask the witness to clear it up for us.

24 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. I can ask again.

25 Q. Witness, do you recall what the date was when all this happened?

Page 6106

1 A. I think it was on the 19th of September, 1993.

2 Q. Are you a hundred percent sure about this date?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once again, we are faced

5 with a problem of leading the witness. We had the similar problem with

6 the name of this individual. We have a problem involving a date with this

7 witness. And now, for the second time, the witness has given his answer.

8 And I'm sure that the issue was a matter of preparations. I don't know.

9 I don't see the reason for this question "Are you a hundred percent sure

10 about this date?" I am objecting to the leading nature of this question

11 to an issue in respect of which the witness has already given his answer

12 twice.

13 MR. BOS: The witness said "I think." That's why I'm asking, "Are

14 you a hundred percent sure?" Otherwise, he would have said, "It was

15 on..." And then I would not have asked this question.

16 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness has answered the question, and you

17 may skip that question.

18 MR. BOS: Very well.

19 Q. Witness, let's go back again. When you were in the basement and

20 you were in front of the desk with Stela behind the desk, were the other

21 prisoners in the basement as well?

22 A. No, not in this particular area. This was a basement for some

23 sort of office. No one else was there. Just Stela. Stela was inside,

24 and Dolma was standing at the door. I remember that individual. People

25 called him "Dolma." He gave me instructions as to what I should do. I

Page 6107

1 was first given a uniform. I put on the uniform and went out. Dado gave

2 me a backpack full of stones to put it on my back, and he tied it like

3 this on my chest, and then Mr. Stela approached --

4 Q. Witness, again, I'm going to stop you because, again, we have to

5 do it step by step. So you were given the uniform. Were you then still

6 in the basement when you were given the uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And after you were given the uniform, you were given a backpack.

9 Were you still in the basement when you were given this backpack?

10 A. I was only given this uniform in the basement and put it on in the

11 basement, and the backpack was given to me in front of the basement, in

12 the yard.

13 Q. So when you were at the yard, who was there with you?

14 A. These guys who were with me, I mean the prisoners, and another 30

15 or so members of the Convicts Battalion who were milling around. And Dado

16 gave me this backpack full of stones on my back. He tied it like this.

17 And then Stela came to me and put a plastic flask in my pocket, and he

18 said, "Let the balijas think it's a Motorola." Then they called a young

19 man by his name. I don't remember who he was. But he eventually brought

20 us those wooden rifles.

21 Q. When you say then "they" called this man, who called this man?

22 A. I cannot tell you their names -- I mean the name. I don't

23 remember the name.

24 Q. Okay. So then this man, he comes with the wooden rifles, and who

25 gave you the wooden rifles?

Page 6108

1 A. I don't recall the name of the individual who gave me the rifle.

2 I don't remember it.

3 Q. But this again happened in the yard?

4 A. Yes. It was all happening in the yard.

5 Q. So you're there in the yard with your uniform, your rucksack, and

6 your rifle. And then what happened after that? Did they -- what did they

7 ask you to do?

8 A. First of all, Dado took us to a passageway between the Health

9 Centre and this other building. I don't know which one was which. I know

10 this was the location of the Health Centre. There was a two-way street

11 there and then another road. He said that we should cross over the street

12 to reach this building on the other side of the street and wait for the

13 soldiers to cross over, so if anyone should get killed or wounded, so that

14 we could pull them out.

15 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, now I'm going to refer to the sketch which

16 was put on the overhead projector, and I'm going to ask you, first of all,

17 to clarify the various locations which are on the sketch. Could you

18 please look at the sketch and -- first of all, what represents number 2?

19 A. The building number 2 is the Health Centre.

20 Q. What represents number 3?

21 A. The yard.

22 Q. Now, you have testified that you were in the yard and that -- so

23 from -- if you could indicate on the sketch from where of the yard were

24 you taken?

25 A. To this area here. There are two news-stands on the sidewalk

Page 6109

1 here. First we crossed this street.

2 Q. All right. Let me first ask you, before you continue, what

3 represents number 5?

4 A. Number 5 depicts the two news-stands which were on the pavement

5 near the street where we came out. So we passed those two news-stands as

6 we were crossing the street, and then we reached this road. And then

7 somebody spoke behind us. And judging by the way he spoke, I think it was

8 Dado. And he told us to go to the left, to the building on the left side,

9 which is what we did. We reached a building. I don't recall exactly what

10 the situation was because I was really overwhelmed, but I realised that I

11 had crossed the street and ended up in a building. There was rubble

12 falling down --

13 Q. Witness, again, sorry, I'm going to interrupt you. So you go down

14 the street and somebody behind you - you think it's Dado - gave you

15 instructions to go to a building on the left. Is that building which he

16 instructed you to go, is that also depicted on this sketch?

17 A. It's not marked exactly. It's just the area where it could have

18 been. This is really an approximation, my diagram. I just marked the

19 location where I think the building was.

20 Q. Now, Witness, you've also indicated something which is marked as

21 number 1. What does number 1 -- what is that on the sketch?

22 A. There is a junction behind the Health Centre and a location from

23 which the tank opened fire.

24 Q. Right. So number 1 is the tank? Is that --

25 A. Yes, that's what I said, a tank.

Page 6110

1 Q. Okay. Now, while you were working -- walking on this road, was

2 the tank shooting, firing?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And in which direction was the tank firing?

5 A. The tank was stationed here, and it was firing in this direction

6 here where these buildings are. It was probably firing at these

7 buildings, because at the moment I reached this building, I fell down

8 because of a detonation, and this is the location where I was wounded,

9 probably from a shell -- from the shell which had impacted the building.

10 Q. You said you were wounded. Where were you wounded?

11 A. In my leg. I can show you.

12 Q. Now, you don't have to show us, Witness. No, that's all right.

13 A. On three locations.

14 Q. All right.

15 JUDGE CLARK: He wants to show it.

16 MR. BOS: You can show it, but I'm just worried about the fact

17 that he's a protected witness and that he cannot move around. You can

18 show the wound, but I hope that we can do that without --

19 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps if you explain your reasons for the

20 hesitation, it would put the witness at his ease.

21 MR. BOS: Witness, yes, my hesitation of you showing the wound was

22 that you are being protected by facial distortion, and if you're now going

23 to move from your desk, the public may see you.

24 So maybe we can go into closed session and then the witness can

25 show the wound.

Page 6111

1 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the closed session, please.

2 JUDGE CLARK: It will make this witness feel happier.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] We do not have any problem with this. I

5 mean, we do not contest this in any way. So as far as the Defence is

6 concerned, we believe the witness.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, anyway, we are going to see the wounds from this

9 witness. We'll go to the closed session, please.

10 MR. BOS: Witness, if you could just wait until we close down the

11 blinds, and then you can stand up and show the wounds. If you just wait a

12 minute.

13 [Closed session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6112

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13 Page 6112 redacted closed session.

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Page 6113

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are now in the open session.

9 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. So Witness PP, so you got injured. Do you know what injured you?

11 A. I don't know. I suppose it was a shell, but I'm not sure.

12 Because I don't know what it was. When I came round, when I regained

13 consciousness, I was covered with rocks, rubble, plaster. I only remember

14 that I was pulled inside the building. I was frozen.

15 Q. So you actually lost conscious when you got injured?

16 A. I don't remember if it was unconsciousness, but I was

17 disoriented. My mind was not working properly. It was blocked. I

18 remember I was inside the building, and I thought I had escaped alone,

19 whereas there were actually three other people with me, three other men.

20 Q. And who were these three other men, without giving their names?

21 A. The men who escaped with me. They were prisoners as well.

22 Q. You said that you remember that you were pulled in. Who pulled

23 you in the building?

24 A. No, I don't remember being pulled inside. I was told that later.

25 I don't remember that happening. I thought at the moment that I had

Page 6114

1 entered the building myself, on my own.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos, I hate to interrupt you. But as for the

3 sketches made by this witness himself, we would like to see a real picture

4 or real photo or map to let this sketch correspond to the real map.

5 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, I can understand that. And I will

6 try. But I hope that the witness will be able to recognise the

7 photograph.

8 If the witness then could be shown Exhibit 14.5.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bos, does this witness have any problem with his

10 eyesight, seeing that he was taken out of hospital following operations to

11 his eyes?

12 MR. BOS:

13 Q. Witness, you heard the question of the Judge. You were operated

14 on your eyesight. How is your eyesight at the moment?

15 A. I have a problem with my left eye sometimes.

16 Q. There is now a photograph in front of -- are you able to see

17 what's on the photograph? Witness, do you recognise what's on the

18 photograph?

19 A. This is a totally different picture to what I remember from the

20 day when I made my escape. For instance, what is missing on this picture

21 are the two kiosks, the two news-stands. I'm not quite sure that this is

22 it, because this picture looks totally different to me from what I saw

23 when I escaped. And I wouldn't like to say anything final based on this

24 picture.

25 Q. Witness, considering that this photograph was taken a long time

Page 6115

1 after the incident, would you still be able to recognise some of the

2 buildings on this photograph?

3 A. I can't say. I'm not sure.

4 Q. Witness --

5 A. Because this looks totally different to me.

6 Q. Well, let me give it one more try. Witness, you said that there

7 were two kiosks, and you don't see these kiosks on the photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you know where these kiosks used to be? Could you indicate

10 that on the photograph?

11 A. Roughly here. That's where they should be, as far as I can say.

12 But the picture is totally different to me from what I saw on that day. I

13 don't know Mostar very well, and what I saw doesn't look like what's here

14 in the picture.

15 Q. So if I would ask you which building you actually ended up on that

16 day, would you be able to tell that from the photograph?

17 A. I wouldn't want to do that.

18 Q. Witness, if you look at the photograph, would you know where the

19 tank was situated on this photograph?

20 A. Here, approximately, because it was at the intersection.

21 Q. And, Witness, could you indicate the yard from where you actually

22 left with the other prisoners?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

24 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, point of order. While this witness is

25 doing these things, could he at least mark on these -- instead of just

Page 6116

1 point? I know it's not my witness or anything, but for the record it

2 might be nice to have markings, 1, 2, 3, A, B, C, whatever.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, the question is whether the witness recognised

4 this photo or not.

5 Well, Mr. Bos, you may try that.

6 MR. BOS: Yes. Well, Your Honours, I'm a bit reluctant to do this

7 because the witness is clearly not very comfortable, and I really don't

8 want him to start marking things on the photographs of which he's not 100

9 per cent certain of.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bos, the photograph is, after all, an aerial

11 view, and you can remember the conditions under which this witness was

12 operating that day, so he clearly is uncomfortable with pointing out

13 anything on the building -- on the photograph.

14 MR. BOS: Yes.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Are there any photographs that are not actually

16 aerial views?

17 MR. BOS: I can give it a try with a photograph which is not an

18 aerial view, Your Honour.

19 Your Honours, may I suggest that we break a little early for lunch

20 and we try to find some other photographs which may help this witness to

21 recognise certain things?

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I have to warn you that during the

24 break, you are still under the oath, so you should not talk to anybody

25 about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to you concerning your

Page 6117

1 testimony. We will continue in the afternoon with your testimony. Do you

2 understand?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'd like to have one minute of the

5 Chamber's time after the witness is excused, if I may.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. The usher may show you out of the room

7 first.

8 [The witness stands down]

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, thank you very much. I think I can

11 handle this most efficiently and most quickly if we could just go into

12 private session for one moment, please.

13 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

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Page 6121

1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

4 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honours. I went through the exhibit

5 binder, and I will ask if the witness could look at -- well, let's first

6 let the witness look at Exhibit 14.12 first. And maybe he can also be

7 given 14.11, just the two of them.

8 Q. Now, Witness, I would first like you to look at Exhibit 14.12. Do

9 you recognise what's on the photograph? My specific question on this

10 photograph is: Would you be able to indicate on this photograph the route

11 you took when you were actually leaving the courtyard?

12 A. No, because the entrance, or rather, the exit where we were was

13 covered with sandbags, and I have a completely different idea of it. The

14 picture seems to be different now.

15 Q. All right. Can you, then, have a look at photograph 14.11,

16 Exhibit 14.11? Now, this is a series of photographs which we pasted

17 together, and for this photograph, can I -- can you indicate on this

18 photograph where the tank was situated?

19 A. Approximately only here, at the junction.

20 Q. And maybe we can put the photograph on the overhead projector and

21 then you can -- so that's -- now, I'm afraid we will not be able to get

22 the whole photograph on the overhead but maybe just the spot which is

23 relevant for this particular question.

24 A. This should be the area in question here, at the junction.

25 Q. Now, Witness, could you get a marker and mark with a "1" where you

Page 6122

1 just indicated that the tank was situated.

2 A. Here, more or less. It should have been here.

3 Q. And looking at this photograph again, could you tell us where were

4 you and your fellow prisoners were in relation to the tank when you were

5 crossing this road?

6 A. I'm not completely sure. I already told you that I don't know

7 Mostar very well. This is not the image that I had in mind at the time I

8 fled, but anyway, this should be more or less the area, the route that I

9 took as I was trying to escape, more or less, at least the way I remember

10 the situation, but this photograph is entirely new to me.

11 Q. If you say this -- could you indicate it on the map, the route you

12 took? If you do, just take the marker and try to mark the route.

13 A. Yes. But again it will only be an approximation because I'm not

14 sure that this is the area in question anyway. The exit that I took to

15 get out was completely covered with sandbags and some rubble, and the

16 situation was totally different than the one depicted on this photograph.

17 But it was from here, more or less, that I crossed over there, and then

18 from here I was told to go to the left to the building, more or less. But

19 again I'm not sure, because the way I remember it, it was -- it was

20 completely different at the time I was there.

21 Q. All right. Well, if --

22 MR. BOS: Again, Your Honours, I'm a bit hesitant to let this

23 witness mark if he's not absolutely sure, so I would prefer he's not

24 marking this route if he's not 100 per cent sure.

25 Q. So, Witness, we will leave it with this.

Page 6123

1 Witness, could you now look at Exhibit 14.9. Sorry, 14.8. 14.8.

2 I'm sorry, it's 14.9 and 14.10. I'm sorry about this.

3 MR. BOS: If the witness could first be shown Exhibit 14.10.

4 Q. Witness, do you recognise what's depicted on this photograph?

5 A. I'm sorry, I just don't want to venture either way, because I'm

6 not sure.

7 MR. BOS: I think I'm going to leave it with this, Your Honours.

8 Q. Thank you, Witness.

9 Witness, just one -- a few questions to end this examination.

10 When you actually -- when you actually entered the building after you had

11 had -- after you had crossed the road, did you still have your wooden

12 rifle on you? Do you recall that?

13 A. I took the rifle inside the building, and it remained there,

14 together with the backpack with the stones I was taking to one of the

15 buildings. But I was wounded, so I had left all of my equipment there.

16 It remained there. I no longer had an opportunity to see it because I

17 eventually left the area.

18 Q. So did you ever get it back? Did you get the rucksack and the

19 wooden rifle back?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. Do you know with whom you left it?

22 A. Things remained inside the building with several soldiers who were

23 there with rifles, but I don't know what eventually happened to all those

24 things.

25 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

Page 6124

1 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Par, please.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, my name is Zelimir Par. I am an

5 attorney at law representing Vinko Martinovic in this case, and I should

6 like to ask you several questions concerning your testimony today. At the

7 beginning, I should like to move into private session for the purposes of

8 mentioning a few names of individuals.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please. And Mr. Par,

10 I have to warn you, you have to turn off your mike after your question.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6125

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4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Witness, your request for the protective measures is

14 granted by this Trial Chamber. Maybe you are not very much familiar with

15 the equipment in this courtroom. You see the mike of Defence counsel,

16 there is a light. When the light is on, do not answer the question. You

17 understand that?

18 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Witness, let us follow up on the incident involving wooden rifles

22 which you discussed with the Prosecutor. So you do not know where your

23 wooden rifle ended. Am I correct in understanding your testimony?

24 A. At the moment I got inside the building and went into the cellar

25 of that building, I left my backpack and my rifle there, and I was

Page 6126

1 transferred to the other building where the infirmary was where I was

2 given help and where I stayed that night. On the following day, I went

3 over to the other side, and that's all I know. I cannot tell you about

4 the things that I'm not sure about.

5 Q. Of course. The reason I'm asking you this question is because one

6 of the witnesses in this case, Witness OO, and who is one of the men who

7 was with you during this particular event, told us that he knows that all

8 of those four rifles were taken by a member of the army. Have you heard

9 any such thing? Are you familiar with that?

10 A. I will tell you how it was and what happened, as far as I'm

11 concerned. I don't know what others told you. I got in. I sat down on

12 one of the steps. I took off my backpack, and the rifle remained on the

13 steps, and I was transferred to another basement at that point. That's

14 all I can be sure about. I cannot claim anything that I'm not certain

15 about, because others at that point in time were no longer with me.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you.

17 Have you heard of a museum in which one of those rifles would have

18 been exhibited as a kind of memento or as a souvenir from those days?

19 A. No, I haven't seen that, and I don't want to state anything about

20 it. I haven't heard about it either.

21 Q. On the day that you escaped, that is, after that day, did you ever

22 see any of these detainees who were with you in that group? Did you see

23 them on that day and the day that followed?

24 A. As I told you, that night I was transferred to the other

25 basement. I'm not sure. (redacted)

Page 6127

1 (redacted)

2 Q. Let us focus on that particular day. Not the next day, but that

3 day. Did you see any one of them on that very day?

4 A. No, I did not because --

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

6 MR. BOS: I think we need a redaction in the transcript, and maybe

7 the witness should be warned not to mention any names.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, the names will be redacted.

9 Witness, you have to know that you should be very careful about

10 the mentioning of the names because some of those names are under the

11 protective measures. If you want to mention some names, just ask for the

12 permission. Do you understand that?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, but you should have

14 warned me earlier on. It's not my fault. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. Par, we have a difference

16 between the English translation and the -- the English interpretation and

17 the French interpretation. And also, we need to have pauses between

18 questions and answers so that the interpreters can catch up.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I will bear

20 that in mind.

21 Q. Mr. Witness --

22 JUDGE CLARK: Before you start, can we just say to the witness,

23 who looks a little confused about the names.

24 Witness PP, the names of the protected witnesses are the names of

25 the people who were with you when you escaped to the other side. You can

Page 6128

1 talk about anybody else, but those people have asked -- the survivors have

2 asked for protective measures, and therefore we don't mention their

3 names. But if either we or any of the lawyers ask you for their names,

4 they will ask to go into private session. Now, these are words you don't

5 normally hear of, but they are the only names we are concerned about.

6 But what we are really concerned about is that you speak very

7 fast. Mr. Par is every bit as fast as you are, and the translators are

8 already having problems when you talk across each other. So just -- what

9 the president usually explains much better than I do, so I let him, about

10 the little dot, he's better at explaining that to witnesses.

11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Witness, let me go back to my last question. My last question was

13 whether on that day - not the following day but on that day - you saw any

14 of the prisoners who had been with you in that group. And to be even more

15 specific, did you see any of those prisoners carry that wooden rifle

16 during that day or later that day? Did you see that or not?

17 A. I told you I didn't see because I was immediately transferred to

18 another basement, to the infirmary, where I was given medical help, and

19 that is the reason why I didn't see any one of them.

20 Q. Thank you. Let us focus on the rifles. Did they have any straps?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Did all of them have straps, and could you describe that strap?

23 Was it an improvised strap?

24 A. It was an original strap from an automatic rifle. It was light

25 green in colour, in braided form, but it was, at any rate, an original

Page 6129

1 strap from an automatic rifle.

2 Q. What was the colour of the rifles and what was the shape of those

3 rifles?

4 A. It was as a regular Kalashnikov rifle, painted -- painted black,

5 with this strap from an automatic rifle.

6 Q. Do you know who manufactured those rifles?

7 A. No, I don't.

8 Q. Do you have any knowledge whether anyone else from your group had

9 participated in the making of those rifles?

10 A. You're referring to those three men who were with me? No, I don't

11 think that they had taken part in that. They were there. I don't think

12 they had time to -- they were with me the whole time. They didn't have

13 time to make those rifles.

14 Q. A witness in this case, Allan Knudsen, who was a foreign

15 mercenary, testified before this Court that he had seen the same prisoners

16 making those rifles, the same prisoners who carried them the following

17 day. After his testimony, a dilemma arose before all of us here because

18 we no longer knew whether we were talking about one single incident or

19 several such incidents. So my question to you is: Do you know this

20 person by the name of Knudsen?

21 A. No. This is the first time I hear this name.

22 Q. I have asked you about Mostar in general. Now I am asking you

23 about Stela's unit specifically. Did you ever hear or see these wooden

24 rifles being used in any other occasion except for this one in which you

25 personally participated?

Page 6130

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. One of the prisoners who was with you in this group, and who

3 testified as Witness OO, told us that after he had escaped, he gave a

4 statement on that day or on that night to a military man concerning the

5 events that had happened to him. Did the same thing happen to you? Did

6 you give a statement with him or on your own?

7 A. As I told you, I was transferred to the infirmary, I was given

8 medical help, and I could not go over across the old bridge on that same

9 night. So they took me to the SDK building late at night, and a doctor

10 came to the SDK building. He examined my wound, cleaned it, and treated

11 it. So I did talk to someone. I don't know exactly who that person was.

12 Whether he was a policeman or a soldier, I don't know. But he was wearing

13 a uniform. I told him about the circumstances of my capture, my arrest,

14 where I was arrested, where I was detained, and so on and so forth, but I

15 cannot tell you anything about the identity of this individual.

16 Q. As far as this interview is concerned, the interview with this

17 official, whether he was a member of the military or the police, that is

18 not important, but was the purpose of that interview to check on the

19 circumstances of your being there, of your arrival to the other side, or

20 was the purpose of that statement, of that interview, a different one?

21 Was it an interrogation?

22 A. I don't understand your question.

23 Q. The individual who conducted the interview, was it suspicious of

24 something? Was it because he suspected you of having escaped from the

25 other side? Was it necessary for him to check the circumstances of your

Page 6131

1 escape, or was the purpose of this interrogation different?

2 A. Well, he asked me how I ended up in the camp. I didn't notice any

3 suspicion of any sort. I was simply asked to provide them with a brief

4 description of my capture and how I ended up on the other side. But we

5 didn't discuss the details. I didn't spend much time there.

6 Q. At some later stage, after this interview, were you at any point

7 in time called back to give a statement for the purposes of clarifying

8 that situation? And I'm not referring to the interview with the OTP here

9 from this Tribunal. I'm referring to the relevant authorities and the

10 initial statement that you gave to them.

11 A. I remember that an individual came on one occasion to ask me

12 whether I was prepared to talk about what had happened to me in Mostar

13 with the investigators of the Tribunal. That was the only such contact.

14 And after that, I contacted the investigators of the Tribunal and gave

15 them my statement. But other than that, no, nothing.

16 Q. Do you know, Witness, what AID is?

17 A. From the media. I heard from the media that it's some sort of

18 police. I don't know. I have no clue, because -- but there is a lot of

19 talk about it lately, and I heard in the media that it's some sort of

20 secret police. That's all I know.

21 Q. Were you contacted perhaps by this secret police, AID, regarding

22 these events, regarding your testimony? Did you have any contacts with

23 them?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And this other man who had talked to you previously, whether you

Page 6132

1 were prepared to testify before this Tribunal, did he introduce himself

2 which police he was representing, whether he was from AID or not?

3 A. He didn't say he was from the AID. He just appeared as an

4 official inviting me to the police station to confirm that my statement

5 was correct. No AID was mentioned. All I have told you is based on what

6 I heard from the media.

7 Q. I would very much like to ask one question. But for the sake of

8 caution, we should better go into private session perhaps.

9 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [Open session]

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

Page 6133

1 Q. Witness, can you tell us, on that day when all this was going on

2 with those wooden rifles as you have described today, how many other

3 prisoners were able to see that event while this was going on, your

4 escape, your movement with those wooden rifles? How many other prisoners

5 were around who could see it?

6 A. I can't tell you precisely, but perhaps there were ten men

7 around. Not many of us were standing in the yard of the Health Centre,

8 perhaps about ten. I can't give you a precise figure. I'm not sure.

9 Q. Can you tell me, in your community, in your environment, was this

10 event later discussed? Did the story make the rounds? Was it described

11 and redescribed as part of the stories about that and similar incidents?

12 Is it your experience that this story was making the rounds?

13 A. How shall I answer this question, I wonder? Were there stories

14 circulating? Of course, they were. All this, the persecution, the

15 humiliation, all this is still talked about.

16 Q. I didn't mean that; I meant this particular event involving wooden

17 rifles. Was it discussed in the community in which you live?

18 A. Lots of stories made the rounds in the place where it happened,

19 but I left that area very soon after the event, and I went back to live in

20 Sarajevo.

21 Q. I didn't want you to mention any places. But anyway, the notion

22 is too broad to threaten anyone's identity.

23 Anyway, let us focus now on this unit. Let us call it "Stela's

24 unit," conditionally speaking. Do you know the name of that unit today,

25 or did you know it then, this Stela's unit?

Page 6134

1 A. I knew it by the name of "Convicts Battalion" or "Stelici."

2 That's what they call themselves, the "Convicts Battalion" and "Stelici,"

3 and that's what it was in my mind. From their own words, that's all I

4 know. If I weren't sure of that, I wouldn't be saying it.

5 Q. I'm not sure I understood you correctly when you testified. How

6 many times were you in that unit or with that unit?

7 A. I can't say that precisely either. You never know where you are.

8 You're always brought somewhere. People around tell you, "We're Stelici,"

9 or we're something else. A soldier passing by says, "We are Stelici."

10 Those are the things I remember. I can't say precisely how many times.

11 Q. I understand that you don't have a clear recollection precisely

12 because of the fact that you never knew where you were exactly, and that's

13 what creates the confusion.

14 A. Yes, that's why I can't say precisely. I wasn't sure where I

15 was. But I remember occasions where we were brought by this Vinko, Dinko

16 Martinovic, this driver, to Stela's unit. I remember the works, the

17 filling of bags with sand, the cladding of walls with these bags, the

18 things we did.

19 Q. Let us go back to this Dinko or Vinko Martinovic, which through

20 your testimony you seem to have considered as Stela's soldier. Is that

21 right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During your testimony today, you seem to have said that there were

24 occasions when Vinko was driving you on a truck and would leave two or

25 three people behind in certain places and drive the rest of you on. Were

Page 6135

1 there such occasions?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So this driver, whatever his name, left some of the people with

4 different units; he didn't drive all of you together to this unit called

5 Stela's unit for practical purposes. Is that the case?

6 A. You see, there were certain people like masons, like carpenters,

7 people who had specific trades. That's how they were grouped, and that's

8 the reason why they were left in certain places on certain work sites,

9 because masons were needed or carpenters were needed. They were left in

10 certain locations to work in their trade.

11 Q. We are now dealing with the issue of where this zone of

12 responsibility was which was Stela's. And which was his zone of

13 responsibility? Can you say that?

14 A. I cannot tell you precisely where his zone of responsibility was.

15 I know that the Convicts Battalion was an intervention unit, and they were

16 always located in the place where the separation line was shifting.

17 Q. Do you think that Stela is the commander of the Convicts

18 Battalion? Do you think that was the name of his unit? Whenever you hear

19 "Convicts Battalion," do you always associate it with Stela? Can we

20 distinguish between these two things?

21 A. I know there was one Convicts Battalion. There -- maybe there

22 were more than one, but I know only about one Convicts Battalion, and I'm

23 telling you only about things that I know about.

24 Q. Sir, you mentioned during your testimony that there existed a unit

25 named after a dog, Mrmak or something. Is that the name, another name,

Page 6136

1 for the Convicts Battalion, or was it the name of another unit?

2 A. That's the name of the Convicts Battalion. It was the name of

3 Stela's dog. All of this is something I know from hearsay, from stories

4 of others. I heard that his dog was named Mrmak, and that was the reason

5 why a dog was depicted on their emblem, and that they were the Convicts

6 Battalion.

7 Q. Sir, I understand all that. The point of my question is not

8 whether his dog's name was Mrmak or not, but you know, you witnessed this

9 war. There were -- there are larger and smaller units. One of these

10 units was called Mrmak. Do you believe that Stela was the commander of

11 this Convicts Battalion, that this was a unit of that size? When you say

12 "Convicts Battalion" and "Stela's unit," are these synonyms in your mind?

13 A. I didn't understand you. You speak too fast.

14 Q. While testifying today, you used the term Convicts Battalion.

15 When you said that, did you mean that members of the Convicts Battalion

16 were soldiers under Stela's command?

17 A. I think so, because they said so, that Stela was their boss, their

18 commander. It is from this that I conclude that he was what he was.

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I will now show this witness one

20 document in order to pursue this subject.

21 Q. Witness, I have here a document I would like to show you. It is

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit P626, from the twelfth binder. I will not bother you

23 too much with this document. I would just like you to look at one

24 sentence so we can discuss it. I will tell you what this document is. It

25 is a brief or information drafted by SIS, which is this Croatian police,

Page 6137

1 dated 7th October, 1993, and when you see this document, will you kindly

2 look at it, see what it is about, and then concentrate on the first

3 paragraph? Please take your time to look through the document, and if you

4 like, you may read it in its entirety.

5 We are only interested in the first paragraph, so you don't have

6 to waste too much time on the rest of the document. If you have looked at

7 it, then I can ask my question, and then, if you like, you may come back

8 to the text before you answer.

9 What I -- my intention was to concentrate on the first sentence,

10 which I will read slowly. It says: "The source" -- or perhaps I will

11 read the whole excerpt: "The source came to know that in the night of the

12 2nd October, 1993, the looting and expulsion of Muslim citizens from the

13 right to the left bank continued. It has come to the source's knowledge

14 that this is being done by groups which use the names of various units.

15 This is confirmed by statements of the neighbours; namely, the members of

16 these units call out to each other, conspicuously, names like Tutici,

17 Stelici, and other names, in order to shift the blame to the wrong

18 entity."

19 This is the substance of the text. What I would like to know is

20 the following: We have just been discussing something in order to

21 establish who was who and who belonged to which unit, and you told me on

22 what basis you believe some people to have been members of Stela's unit.

23 Now, having read this, do you allow for the possibility that even in the

24 events in which you were involved, certain people misrepresented

25 themselves?

Page 6138

1 A. I wouldn't like to say anything about it.

2 Q. Okay. We can set this document aside, but we cannot give up

3 trying to establish who belonged to which unit.

4 You say that you identify the Convicts Battalion with Stela and

5 his unit. That's the way it seemed to you at the time. Now, the area

6 which was his -- that zone of responsibility, do you also identify it with

7 Stela, that is, Vinko Martinovic? When you hear "Convicts Battalion," do

8 you immediately think "That's where Stela was"?

9 A. I don't.

10 Q. I have a specific question now. One incident which happened on

11 Santiceva Street was mentioned during your testimony. One of the soldiers

12 killed someone with a hand grenade. In your mind, is this in any way

13 related to Stela and his unit? Do you think it was their zone of

14 responsibility?

15 A. A fellow came, drunken, to the place when we were digging a trench

16 at the entrance to the building --

17 Q. Sir, please, we are clear about the event. We are reluctant to

18 raise it again in the first place. But I'm just asking you, who was this

19 soldier? Do you believe that this place where the incident happened was

20 under the control of Vinko Martinovic, Stela, and his unit?

21 A. I will quote the words of one of the soldiers who was there --

22 sorry, one of the prisoners. He said, "If Stelici continuing dropping in

23 on us like this every day, there will be no more balijas left to carry out

24 the works."

25 Q. I will show you another document, and we'll continue this

Page 6139

1 discussion.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I have a document here that we've seen

3 before. It's Exhibit P496 from Binder 10. It's a report from the

4 administration of military police related to the 5th July.

5 Q. Please look at this report, and I would like to ask you a couple

6 of questions about it. I would like to draw your attention to what is

7 written on the first page, "the Health Centre," and then on the second

8 page, "Aleksica Kuca, or Aleksica houses near the underpass."

9 If I may lead you, and I should like you to confirm what I say.

10 "Report of the police, 4th, 5th July, 1993." First line: "The bank, the

11 old grammar school." And underneath: "Nine military policemen, reserve

12 positions held by" -- "nine military policemen holding the position with

13 44 additional policemen on alert. The reserve position is held by MUP

14 with 12 men, and 24 on alert."

15 Second paragraph, line: "The old grammar school, Health Centre.

16 The 9th battalion, 3rd Brigade of the HVO. The line is manned by 25

17 soldiers, 13 at the elementary school, 12 at the Sipad company."

18 Third paragraph: The Health Centre again. "The position is

19 manned by the ATG Mrmak. Due to frequent provocations ..." and so on and

20 so forth. "The number of people manning this position is not stated in

21 this case."

22 Let us turn the page and see the following paragraph, the line:

23 "At the Aleksica houses. The position is manned by the ATG Benko

24 Penavic." The paragraph underneath, the line: "At Aleksica houses and

25 underpass. The position is manned by the 4th Battalion of the 3rd

Page 6140

1 Brigade."

2 I don't need to go any further. But we can see that this is one

3 of the daily reports which were regularly submitted and shows - at least

4 as far as I'm concerned - that there were several units along the same

5 axis. Would you agree with that? Would you agree with the fact that at

6 the time you were there, there were several various units at those

7 positions in addition to the ATG Mrmak?

8 A. You're referring to the dates in question?

9 Q. I'm referring to the confrontation line at the time you were

10 there. I'm not trying to link it to any particular date.

11 A. No, I really don't know. I'm reluctant to give any such comment

12 because, for example, as far as this date is concerned, the 4th or the 5th

13 of July, I was in Dretelj. But at any rate, I am really not sure about

14 the situation on those positions and the units involved.

15 Q. So, Witness, I'm not saying that you were there on this particular

16 date, but my case is that the situation remained unchanged. When you were

17 at the location, when you went to work at Stela's unit, did you happen to

18 see there were various units there, or was it your understanding that all

19 of the troops were members of Stelici, or the Stela's unit?

20 A. At least that's what they called themselves. I did not have any

21 access to them. I did not have an opportunity to talk to any of them.

22 But those were their own words.

23 Q. Well, we already had an opportunity to see that they sometimes

24 misrepresented the situation, but I do not intend to pursue the matter any

25 further. If I'm correct, you were sent to work at various locations,

Page 6141

1 Rodoc, Bijelo Polje, and others?

2 A. I went to the area of Bijelo Polje, Rastani, Sovici, Doljani, and

3 at other locations in the area of Mostar, and around the town of Mostar,

4 but I cannot be more specific because I am not familiar with the town of

5 Mostar.

6 Q. I wanted to ask you what the distance was from Rodoc to Bijelo

7 Polje in kilometres. How far were those locations? How long did it take

8 you to get there by truck?

9 A. I did not mention Bijelo Polje.

10 Q. I apologise, let me try this way. What was the distance between

11 those locations? How long was the stretch to the locations where you were

12 taken to, to perform work? I'm -- you don't have to be precise. Is it

13 several kilometres?

14 A. Yes, several kilometres. Sovici is just several kilometres away.

15 Rastani is not very far from the Heliodrom. Buna is also not very far

16 from the Heliodrom. The longest distance was Sovici Doljani, for example.

17 Q. I'm sorry. It was my fault, Witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: You have to pause. The interpreters really have some

19 difficult time with you.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour.

21 Q. Very well, I don't wish to complicate the matter any further. I

22 just wanted to ask you whether the -- whether members of the Stela's unit

23 were at all those locations. But if you're not sure, you don't have to

24 answer my question.

25 Let us now go back to the issue which Mr. Bos tried to clarify by

Page 6142

1 using a map. Witness PP, you couldn't find your way around on this map

2 and the photograph. You said that the situation has changed in the

3 meantime. I should like to know when was the last time that you visited

4 the spot where you escaped?

5 A. The last time I was there was sometime in 1998 or 1999, when I

6 went there with a friend of mine, and I showed him the area. I wanted to

7 retrace my steps, and I remembered that there were 95 steps between two

8 points. The distance was 95 steps.

9 Q. If I understand you correctly, so you did visit the spot some two

10 or three years ago. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes, I visited that spot. I think he told me that I must have got

12 out from the Health Centre, at the time I was trying to escape, and he was

13 trying to explain to me what happened and where I was, but I wasn't sure

14 because, once again, I had a completely different picture in my mind,

15 because I don't think I will be able to see it in the same way that it

16 appeared to me at that moment. You can show me any picture, any

17 photograph, you want. Again, I don't think I'll be able to tell you with

18 certainty that that indeed was the location.

19 Q. Sir, I fully understand you. The situation has changed indeed.

20 But we had an opportunity to see a contemporary photograph today, and I

21 just wanted to ask you whether the location at the time you visited it

22 looked the same way as it looked on the photograph. Were the buildings

23 the same?

24 A. No, no, they were not.

25 Q. So are you saying that at the time you visited the location, it

Page 6143

1 was different from the photograph that you had -- that you saw today?

2 A. Yes. This is all completely new to me.

3 Q. And who was that friend of yours? You don't need to mention his

4 name. Was he an official of some sort? How was it that he knew about

5 those events? Was he an eyewitness?

6 A. No, he was not an eyewitness, but he happened to be -- at the

7 moment of my escape, he was in one of those buildings. Of course, he was

8 there. He's a friend of mine. I know him. I've known him since

9 childhood. But he was not an official of any sort.

10 Q. So you were not able to identify the Health Centre on that

11 occasion either? I simply wanted to establish whether it was possible for

12 us to see the photograph once again and ask several questions regarding

13 the Health Centre once again, in view of that visit of yours of the

14 location. But just tell me: Do you think there is any point in seeing

15 the photograph once again?

16 A. No, I don't think there is. I really cannot be sure. I cannot

17 tell you about things that I'm not sure about.

18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us try to clear up the issue of date,

19 if we can. Now, we are talking about the relevant event on the day when

20 you escaped. Could you tell us what date it was?

21 A. I think -- at least the date that I have in my mind is the 19th of

22 September. That's the mind -- that's the date that I have in my mind.

23 Q. We will go back to that. Let us try to establish that we are

24 talking about the same event. At what time did the attack start, in your

25 opinion?

Page 6144

1 A. At noon, thereabouts. I cannot be more specific.

2 Q. How long did the attack last approximately?

3 A. Once again, I'm not sure. I cannot be precise. I was beside

4 myself at that moment. I don't know how long it lasted.

5 Q. Mr. Witness, we fully understand your situation. I am not asking

6 you to tell us how many minutes or how many hours it lasted. However,

7 could you give us at least a rough estimation, a rough estimate, as to how

8 long it was? Did it last the whole day, for example? Throughout the

9 afternoon? Or --

10 A. No, not the whole day. I mean, maybe 15 or 20 minutes, from the

11 time I got out of the building up until the moment I escaped. What

12 happened afterwards, I don't know, because I was in this other building,

13 in the infirmary, so I don't know how it ended or how long it actually

14 lasted.

15 Q. So on that day, on the day of your escape, there was a tank there

16 which opened fire at one point. Did you hear at some later stage that the

17 tank was there on another day, or is it the only day and the only incident

18 that you remember?

19 A. I remember that particular day, and I remember that it was

20 firing.

21 Q. I'm not trying to dispute that; I'm trying to establish the

22 specific date because there may have been other similar events before that

23 day or perhaps later.

24 A. I can only speak about that particular day and about what happened

25 to me. I cannot tell you anything specific about other days.

Page 6145

1 Q. Very well. Thank you.

2 Let us dwell on the event itself for a while. Is it the same

3 event involving the three individuals whose name we cannot mention? You

4 were in that situation only on that particular day with those three

5 individuals at the time, on the day when you escaped? And is it the

6 incident involving the wooden rifles?

7 A. I have already stated my position, and I abide by it.

8 Q. The reason for all these questions is because I believe that there

9 are certain problems regarding the date. Why? Because other individuals,

10 the men who were with you, had a different date in mind. They

11 specifically spoke about the 17th of September, 1993. We have a document

12 here which also mentions the same date, that is, the 17th of September,

13 1993, and the same event. Do you remember where you were on the 17th of

14 September, 1993? Do you remember that particular day -- or rather, that

15 particular date? Do you know where you were on the 17th?

16 A. No, I can't remember that.

17 Q. So why is it that you say that the event took place on the 19th?

18 A. That is the date that has remained imprinted in my mind, although

19 I have already told you that I'm not hundred percent sure of the date.

20 However, I remember the event as having taken place on the 19th of

21 September.

22 Q. And this brings me finally to the following question: Do you

23 allow for the possibility of a mistake? Is it possible that you have made

24 a mistake regarding the date? Do you think it is possible that the event

25 took place on the 17th of September?

Page 6146

1 A. I never offered my guarantees that the event happened on the

2 19th. I told you that I was not hundred percent sure. I said that I

3 remember it as the 19th, thereabouts. But once again, I'm not certain.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness. I understand your position. And I accept

5 your answer. But you have to understand also our position. We are trying

6 to clarify the matter not only because of you but because of the case in

7 general and because we want to make certain comparisons and clarify the

8 dilemma that exists concerning this particular event. So we are now clear

9 that we are talking about one and single event involving you and three

10 other individuals. It may have happened on some other date, but that was

11 the -- that is the event that we are talking about.

12 We had a witness in this case who spoke about the time when the

13 event started. He mentioned the event as involving some wooden rifles,

14 but he said that the attack had started at 5.00 a.m.

15 A. That is not correct. I left the Heliodrom at around 6.00. But I

16 am sure that the event took place around noon. It may have been at 1.00

17 p.m., but I'm sure that it was at that time, that part of the day.

18 Q. We are now discussing the event itself. And your group, the group

19 of people who escaped. How was it that you made that decision? Is it

20 something that you had previously discussed? Was it a spontaneous thing?

21 A. There was no decision whatsoever. We trusted our instincts. I

22 didn't give the whole idea very much thought. There were no preparations

23 whatsoever for the escape. I simply did it. I would be lying to you if I

24 told you a different story. That's how it was.

25 Q. Did you see or hear about any cases of some prisoners

Page 6147

1 volunteered -- who volunteered to recover the bodies of killed soldiers or

2 the bodies of the wounded so as to be released in return and given an

3 opportunity to go to third countries? Have you heard of such a case?

4 A. No, no, I haven't.

5 Q. At the moment you were running across the separation line trying

6 to escape, was there any shooting from infantry weapons, or just from this

7 artillery piece that was there? Can you remember that?

8 A. The fire was coming from all sides. All kinds of weapons were

9 involved.

10 Q. Witness, did you happen to see Stela then and there at the

11 separation line?

12 A. I did not see him at the line, but I have seen him in the

13 basement. I have already told you that I did not see him at the line.

14 Q. Very well, thank you.

15 Do you know a soldier by the name of Takac?

16 A. Not personally, but I've heard about him. But I do not wish to

17 give any comments on that because I'm really not sure. I don't want to

18 recount other people's stories.

19 Q. Did you see Takac at the separation line that day?

20 A. I told you, I cannot comment anything about Takac. I've heard

21 stories about him, but I don't know who the man is, so I cannot speak

22 about him.

23 Q. Good. Let us focus our attention to the hospital, that is, to the

24 time of your transfer to Mostar and the time that you spent hospitalised

25 in that hospital. You testified that members of the Convicts Battalion

Page 6148

1 used to come to the hospital, they introduced themselves the way they did,

2 and you also told us that you had seen some insignia on them. I'm

3 interested now in the emblem, in the insignia of that unit. Correct me if

4 I'm wrong, but I believe that you said that you had seen the insignia with

5 the dog's head on those soldiers with the name of the dog written

6 underneath the picture, the image, and also the words "Convicts

7 Battalion." Am I correct in interpreting your testimony?

8 A. Something else was written as well, "Martinovic," but I can't

9 remember. I don't wish to state anything in that respect.

10 Q. We have to clarify the issue because my client, Mr. Martinovic,

11 claims that there had never been an insignia like that, that they only had

12 an insignia with the words "Vinko Skrobo" written on it and that that

13 insignia was in use sometime between end August and September 1993. Did

14 you happen to see such an insignia? Did you ever hear about an insignia

15 like that?

16 A. I remember seeing it. I cannot describe it to you in precise

17 terms because I don't fully remember the details, but I remember a dog's

18 head. I don't know what units were there in the month of August. I

19 really don't know.

20 Q. Witness, I understand that you're not familiar with those facts,

21 and this is probably not something that you consider to be very important;

22 however, I'm in a position to prove what soldiers they were, so therefore

23 we have to establish whether the soldiers in question were members of that

24 particular unit or not. You mentioned a name of a soldier as a member of

25 that group, Stela's unit, and you told us that his name was Dzemo Skobalj;

Page 6149

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Did you personally know that man from before? Did you know him

4 well, or only by sight, or is it the first time that you saw him?

5 A. I had known him from before.

6 Q. Did you at some point in time learn that Dzemo Skobalj was a

7 member of the unit which was commanded by Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

8 A. No.

9 Q. I will now take the liberty of showing you another document.

10 Please have a look at it, and we'll discuss it briefly. It is

11 Prosecutor's Exhibit P704 from binder 4. It's a document which we have

12 seen more than once in this courtroom.

13 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] With the usher's assistance, I would

14 like to show it to the witness so I can ask a couple of questions.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' note: If it may be put on the

16 ELMO as well? We don't have it.

17 JUDGE CLARK: Have you got another copy for us to put on the ELMO,

18 for us to look at?

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'll give my own copy to be put on the

20 ELMO.

21 Q. Witness, the usher will now give you this red file with an excerpt

22 marked, and please read the title. Could you please read the title aloud?

23 A. "Department of Defence, Convicts Battalion, ATG -- ATJ."

24 Q. What the usher has just given you is the full list, and would you

25 kindly look through it to ascertain its contents? And we'll come to the

Page 6150

1 part where it says: "ATG Vinko Skrobo." So please look through it.

2 JUDGE CLARK: How is that relevant? It's six months or five

3 months later. It's November 1993, and we are talking about July, August,

4 September.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think we will be able to show that

6 there were no significant changes in this unit. And in any event, there

7 are no earlier lists. And precisely at that time, the unit - and I have

8 to state the Defence's case now - the unit was established in this

9 particular period. What I mean to say is that this is the only

10 information we have about the unit. We are showing that it is these

11 people who made up the unit and that before that time, the unit did not

12 exist, so no one could have heard about it. I thought it might be

13 inappropriate only insofar as this is a very long period we are talking

14 about, but I can withdraw it.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Par, if I understand, you've just said that you

16 would be in a position to prove that this unit did not exist until

17 November 1993. Is that correct?

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, no. That unit had two names. One

19 name was Mrmak, the other was Vinko Skrobo. We are not making an issue

20 out of it. It was one unit. We are saying at the time when the conflict

21 began in Mostar between Muslims and Croats on the 9th of May, the unit had

22 not been established. It was a different activity at the time, and the

23 unit was formed later. We're just talking about the date of its

24 establishment, nothing else. And that's our position.

25 JUDGE CLARK: But it's important to know what you're actually

Page 6151

1 saying to this witness. Are you saying that there was no unit at the

2 medical centre whose commander was your client, Mr. Stela, Vinko

3 Martinovic? Or are you saying that in May and June of that year, that it

4 was called "Stelici" or something else? What are you actually saying,

5 that its name was different, or that it didn't exist?

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'm telling this witness the person that

7 he mentioned as Dzemo Skobalj, whom he knew personally and whom he

8 considered to be a member of Stela's unit at the time, I am telling this

9 witness in no unclear terms that my client says that this person Dzemo

10 Skobalj was not in Stela's unit, and that's why I am offering this list,

11 to see which soldiers were in the unit. So I'm only saying that this

12 soldier was not one of Stela's men, and he cannot conclude on the basis of

13 seeing that man that the men who were around the hospital that day were

14 part of Stela's unit.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Par, I think Judge Clark asked you a very relevant

16 question; that is, the incident in the hospital was supposed to happen on

17 the 9th of May, and this list, I think the date is December 2nd, 1993.

18 There is about -- at least half a year. And some people maybe deserted,

19 some people died. How could you prove a certain person which is not on

20 the list was not present in May of that year?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I cannot prove that, and I'm not

22 offering evidence to that effect. But if the question -- I really don't

23 know the exact date of the event at the hospital. But if it is the 9th of

24 May, 1993, in that case - I am also responding to the Honourable Judge

25 Clark's question - then on the 9th of May, the unit which also included

Page 6152

1 Vinko Martinovic had not yet been established under either name, Vinko

2 Skrobo or Mrmak. It was established immediately after that. But on that

3 particular date, the unit had not yet been established; it had not had a

4 commander. It will come into being a little while later.

5 So I appreciate your remarks. I cannot prove anything with this

6 document at all, and I'm withdrawing it, offering at the same time my

7 apologies for wasting your time.

8 It is 4.00 now, and I still have a number of questions that I

9 propose to deal with yesterday [as interpreted], if you have no other

10 suggestion.

11 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day

14 of November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

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