Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6437

1 Tuesday, 27 November 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.05 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer? Are you ready for your next

9 witness?

10 MR. STRINGER: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your

11 Honours. We are ready. As the Trial Chamber knows, this next witness is

12 going to be testifying via video conference link which is being broadcast

13 into the courtroom today from a different location. We are advised that

14 the witness has requested that he be given protective measures of a

15 pseudonym and facial distortion. I'm advised that the technical people

16 are able to give the witness facial distortion even though he's testifying

17 via videolink, and it's my understanding that the pseudonym would be

18 "RR."

19 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections for those protective

20 measures?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you know that so far we

22 have never objected to these protective measures; however, we are a little

23 bit confused now because the witness -- I don't know. Perhaps we should

24 go into the private session for a moment, lest I be warned once again

25 about his whereabouts, even though we all know where he is staying right

Page 6438

1 now, very far away from here. I believe that this is a country where his

2 safety is ensured, and the very method in which we are communicating with

3 him ensures this. Had he come here, I could understand it perhaps

4 better. But since he's where he is, he's staying where he is, I see no

5 reason for him to have these protective measures, because I think about

6 95 per cent of witness so far have had some kind of protective measures.

7 Again, we have not objected so far, but perhaps this is going a bit too

8 far. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I second -- good afternoon, Your

11 Honours. Good afternoon, Mr. President. I apologise for not greeting you

12 properly. But I would like to second the -- my colleague Mr. Krsnik's

13 objection, because the witness, first of all, refused to come here, citing

14 as a reason his fear of flying and I don't know what else. So the

15 question that we have is what else is he afraid of? The physical distance

16 between us and him is so large and the distance between where he is now

17 and the place where all these alleged crimes took place is so large, that

18 I see no particular reason for him. Otherwise, we would not object.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you for your cooperation. In this case, the

20 witness might travel to somewhere and there are some people who might live

21 in the surroundings of where he is located. So on the grounds of the

22 precautionary reasons, this Trial Chamber will grant those protective

23 measures asked by the Prosecution.

24 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Before we begin, I could

25 inform the Trial Chamber of what we view to be the relevant parts of the

Page 6439

1 indictment that this testimony would cover. And that would be paragraphs

2 9 and 11, in the background section of the indictment; paragraphs 15, 16

3 and 17, which relate to the superior authority of the accused; general

4 allegation in paragraph 21, regarding the widespread and systematic nature

5 of the campaign; paragraph 25, which is part of count 1, which relates to

6 the persecution of the Bosnian Muslim population that was found in Sovici;

7 and also paragraphs 27 and 28 of count 1, which relate to the Heliodrom

8 and other detention centres that the Muslim population was held in; and

9 also paragraph 34 of count 1. The testimony will relate to counts 2

10 through 5, regarding forced labour on confrontation lines; paragraphs 46

11 and 50, which are within counts 9 through 12, which relate to torture and

12 beatings of Bosnian Muslims who were prisoners from Sovici; and finally

13 paragraph 53 of count 18, which relates to the forcible transfer of the

14 civilian population of Sovici from that location out to Gornji Vakuf.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Did you prepare a piece of paper which you

16 are going to furnish to Defence counsel and to the Chamber?

17 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. I believe that at the location

18 of the witness, the Registrar Mr. Dubuisson has prepared a slip of paper

19 with the witness's name and the pseudonym, and I believe that we also have

20 one in the courtroom.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Just to clarify the procedure, Mr. Dubuisson, the

23 registrar in the third place, is going to show the witness the piece of

24 paper, and he will sign it. And I will show a piece of paper with his

25 name and the pseudonym here in the courtroom.

Page 6440

1 JUDGE LIU: Could we have the witness now.

2 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. If you push your "Video

3 Evidence" button, I believe that the images will appear that are coming

4 from the remote location.

5 THE REGISTRAR: May we have the witness, please.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 WITNESS: WITNESS RR

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 [Witness testified through videolink]

10 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you. Good

12 afternoon.

13 JUDGE LIU: Will you please stand up. Would you please make the

14 solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is going to show

15 you.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

19 Yes, Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.

20 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I start, I just

21 want to make sure, because in the courtroom, we are seeing the face of the

22 witness, and I wanted to make sure that the witness's face is not being

23 broadcast outside the courtroom. Okay, and I'm getting an affirmative on

24 that from the booth.

25 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

Page 6441

1 Q. Witness, good morning to you. It's the afternoon here in The

2 Hague.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Can you hear me well, and can you see me?

5 A. Yes, I can hear you, and I can see you.

6 Q. Before I begin asking you questions, I want to inform you that the

7 Trial Chamber has granted your request for protective measures. And so

8 throughout your testimony this afternoon, I'm going to call you by a

9 pseudonym "Witness RR." Do you understand that?

10 A. I understand, yes.

11 Q. So I would caution you not to mention your name or to try to avoid

12 saying -- giving information about yourself that would tend to identify

13 you to those of us who are watching here in The Hague. Okay?

14 A. Yes. It's okay. Yes.

15 Q. Now, Witness, let me ask you, are you a Bosnian Muslim who was

16 born and raised in the village of Sovici in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. And were you living in Sovici in 1992 and 1993?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. In April of 1992, were you mobilised into the Territorial Defence,

21 or the local TO, for Sovici?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in April of 1993, were you a member of the TO for Sovici?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. In April of 1993, can you tell us, please, who was the commander

Page 6442

1 of the TO in Sovici?

2 A. Dzemal Ovnovic.

3 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to the night of the 16th of

4 April, 1993. Can you tell us, please, what you did on the evening, the

5 night, of 16 April?

6 A. In the evening, I was at the front line until 12.00, and I went

7 home to sleep until 8.00.

8 Q. Okay. What time did you arrive at the front line?

9 A. When the shelling started, I was at home. And I immediately went

10 to the line, and I was there at about ten past 8.00.

11 Q. Okay. Do you know the name of this front-line position where you

12 were?

13 A. It was called Kamen.

14 Q. Now, I believe that in your location, Witness, you should have a

15 photograph which is marked as Exhibit 6.3. And I would ask you to take a

16 look at that photograph at this time, and we can also place it on the

17 ELMO.

18 Now, Witness, are you able to see photograph that's been marked

19 Exhibit 6.3?

20 A. Yes, I see it.

21 Q. And on that photograph, are you able to see the location or the

22 place that you've called Kamen?

23 A. I see it.

24 Q. Okay. If you have a pen or a marker there, could I ask you to

25 place a circle around the place or the position that you've called Kamen?

Page 6443

1 A. I circled it.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, Witness, I just wanted to clarify

3 what you said already about the time that you were at Kamen. What time

4 did you arrive at Kamen on the 16th of April?

5 A. 8.00 or 8.10 at the latest.

6 Q. And was that in the evening of the 16th of April?

7 A. It was in the morning of the 17th, when the attack started.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but we did not see what

10 the witness circled. We cannot see the location which was circled by the

11 witness.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, could you have it put on before the camera?

13 MR. STRINGER: Okay. Apparently that's being done at this time.

14 I don't know.

15 Q. Witness, let me ask you -- Witness RR, you've made the mark. If

16 you have a pen, could you -- okay.

17 A. Here it is, this. I'm circling it now.

18 Q. Thank you very much. You say you arrived at Kamen on the morning

19 of the 17th of April?

20 A. Yes, at ten past 8.00.

21 Q. Where were you when the attack actually started?

22 A. I was at home. I had come back from my shift. I went to bed, and

23 I found myself at home when it started.

24 Q. Okay. And after you then arrived back at Kamen at approximately

25 8.00 in the morning, what did you do and how long did you remain at that

Page 6444

1 location?

2 A. We stayed there until 4.00 in the afternoon.

3 Q. And can you just briefly describe for us, Witness, what happened

4 and what did you observe during the course of that day on the 17th of

5 April?

6 A. On the 17th April, I went back home around 8.00. We went to Duga

7 Gruda and Pasje Stijene and Povrsak. I left home and I went to Kamen, to

8 the front-line positions. We held -- we were holding this front line

9 facing the Croatian village so that we would not be attacked from there.

10 And we stayed until 4.00, until Mackovice and Duga Gruda fell. After the

11 fall of Duga Gruda and Mackovice, I started fleeing the village.

12 Q. Okay. Witness, just to clarify, are Mackovice and Duga Gruda

13 other locations where --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, none of the locations

16 have been written down in the transcript. I think we may have problems

17 with the transcript because nothing of the locations, the place names,

18 were entered in the transcript.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Can you make it clear for us? You

20 may ask some questions and ask the witness to spell out those locations.

21 MR. STRINGER: I will do that.

22 Q. Witness, you mentioned two other locations, Mackovice and Duga

23 Gruda. Could you please spell those two places, as best as you know so

24 that we have them spelled correctly in our record?

25 A. D-u-g-a, one word, G-r-u-d-a, second word. And M-a-c-k-o-v-i-c-a,

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Page 6446

1 Mackovice.

2 Q. All right. Thank you. Now -- and I wanted to ask you again,

3 Mackovice and Duga Gruda, are those other places where other members of

4 the TO also had positions on that day?

5 A. These were members of -- that is the inhabitants of our village

6 that were at Mackovice and Duga Gruda.

7 Q. And when you were at Kamen and during that day, was any shelling

8 taking place?

9 A. Yes, there was shelling.

10 Q. Do you know where the shelling was coming from?

11 A. It was coming from Risovac.

12 Q. And what places what positions were being shelled?

13 A. Duga Gruda, Pasje Stijene, and Povrsak - that was 8.00 in the

14 morning - and Mackovice. Povrsak, spells P-o-v-r-s-a-k. Pasje Stijene,

15 spells P-a-s-j-a S-t-i-j-e-n-a.

16 Q. Now, you said that you remained at this location until about 4.00

17 in the afternoon. Can you tell us, then, what happened at about 4.00 that

18 afternoon?

19 A. Yes. Around 4.00 in the afternoon, Mr. Tuta called Dzemal Ovnovic

20 telling him that the positions had fallen and that he should come out and

21 surrender and that the soldiers should go to the middle school to

22 surrender, and if they did not surrender, he would continue to shell the

23 village - because the village was shelled since 10.00 - and he was going

24 to start shelling civilians. And Dzemal asked us what to do, and then he

25 went to Obruc, and he said that he would be responsible for the 39 men

Page 6447

1 that he had.

2 Q. Witness, how do you know that it was Tuta who gave this order to

3 surrender or the village would be -- the civilians in the village would be

4 shelled?

5 A. Not that they would be shelled but they were already shelled. The

6 shelling started at 10.00. But he would go on shelling the civilians.

7 Dzemal Lulic came, who was sent by Dzemal Ovnovic, the commander, to tell

8 us that Duga Grude and Mackovice had fallen and that there were some

9 prisoners from among our soldiers, and that Mr. Tuta was talking to him,

10 that they were on the line, and that he was -- that the demand came from

11 Tuta that they surrender and that we should go to the middle school,

12 middle -- little school.

13 Q. All right. Now, Witness, after you and the others on Kamen

14 received this information, tell us what you did.

15 A. I decided not to surrender, that I didn't want to go to the school

16 to surrender. I decided to escape the village towards Glavica, together

17 with Dzemal Lulic, with that messenger.

18 Q. And then where did you spend, then, the night of the 17th of

19 April, 1993?

20 A. In the village of Munikoza. That is how far I could get that

21 night.

22 Q. And then the following day, the 18th of April, did you continue to

23 try to move out of the area?

24 A. Yes. I went on towards Jablanica. And on the 18th, I reached the

25 village of Parcani with the rest of the group, those of us who met at

Page 6448

1 Munikoza.

2 Q. By this point, on the night of the 18th, how many people were in

3 your group?

4 A. Nine men.

5 Q. Were these others -- were these also members of the TO from Sovici

6 who were trying to escape?

7 A. That's right.

8 Q. And then the following day, which would have been the 19th of

9 April, did you continue to try to move out of the area toward Jablanica?

10 A. Yes. I had almost reached the village of Orlovac, a Croat

11 village, and that is where I was captured at 4.00 in the afternoon on the

12 19th -- no, on the 20th, we were captured. It was Tuesday.

13 Q. So are you saying, then, that you were captured on the 20th of

14 April?

15 A. Yes, the 20th.

16 Q. Where did you spend the night of the 19th, before you were

17 captured?

18 A. Above the village of Orlovac. On the 18th, in Parcani; and on the

19 19th, we were above Orlovac.

20 MR. STRINGER: For the record, I can inform the Trial Chamber the

21 witness does not have the map with him, but I can inform all the parties

22 that the location Orlovac is found on Exhibit 3.3, which is a map that has

23 been received in evidence which was also used during the testimony of

24 Witness Y.

25 Q. Now, Witness, you say that you were captured on the 20th of

Page 6449

1 April. Could you tell us, please, who captured you and how about -- that

2 came about?

3 A. We were captured by -- well, Orlovac is a village, and the vantage

4 point is Pomen, something like that. It was three or four HVO soldiers

5 from Doljani - I mean, they were villagers of Doljani - and they captured

6 us -- they captured us there, and a wounded member of the TO, my

7 colleague. So we were captured. They tied up our hands and said they had

8 to turn us over to Tuta.

9 And they took us to Mr. Tuta, and we carried the wounded man in

10 the tent canvas. But they knew there was a wounded man, and so they asked

11 when we got there, "Who is wounded?" And I said this is the one from the

12 Territorial Defence. And this one said, "Well, had I known, I wouldn't

13 have come," because he had come because he did not know the wounded came

14 from the Territorial Defence or the HVO. And then they took us down to

15 the village and turned us over to Tuta's command.

16 Q. Now, Witness --

17 MR. STRINGER: And Mr. President, I'm going to ask that the

18 witness be shown the photograph that's marked Exhibit 8.8. And we could

19 place it on the ELMO here, but I don't know if we're able to get that

20 image as well as the image of the witness at the same time.

21 Q. Witness, looking at Exhibit 8.8, are you able to recognise this

22 location?

23 A. I can, yes. This is the command, that is, where their centre

24 was. That is where we were beaten and battered --

25 Q. Okay. Let me --

Page 6450

1 A. -- and all the rest.

2 MR. STRINGER: Before the witness makes any marks with the pen,

3 I'd like to ask, if it's possible, to put the photograph back on the

4 camera for the next couple of questions so that we see the photograph and

5 not the witness.

6 Q. Okay, Witness, now, before you make any marks -- and I'm going to

7 ask you to make some marks on this photograph. But before I do that, let

8 me ask you some questions. First of all, can you tell us how you were

9 brought to this place, and give us a description of what you found when

10 you arrived there. Who was there?

11 A. I can. I can answer all of that. We were taken there with our

12 hands tied and our heads down. And several metres, a hundred, 200 metres

13 from the command in this valley, they ordered us to crawl in a single

14 file, and they were hitting us with their boots on the head as we

15 crawled. And we reached the command from the right-hand side. There is a

16 wire and somebody yelling, "Get through. Stand up," so that we go past

17 that wire. And then we were lined up there in front of the command, up to

18 the road, up to the fish pond with our heads down, and then the beating

19 began.

20 Mr. Tuta was standing in front, in front of the soldiers. We were

21 in a circle, and the troops were around us, and that is where we were

22 beaten. And they had taken me to a small house - which is not here - to

23 beat me. And then they said that I should come out and that this

24 gentleman, Fikret Begic, should go in. And then he was taken in, and then

25 he was beaten, and I was taken back to those other eight.

Page 6451

1 Q. Okay. Witness, let me take you back through this and ask you a

2 couple more questions. You said that there were troops there. Can you

3 give us an approximation how many troops you're talking about that were at

4 this location?

5 A. There were between 100 and 200 soldiers.

6 Q. How were they dressed?

7 A. Many-coloured clothes. There were also some black too.

8 Q. Where were those troops -- where were they during the time that

9 you were crawling?

10 A. Only those four of us who took us -- who captured us were with us,

11 and the rest were in front of the building. I didn't know where they

12 were. When they brought us there, when we had crawled down to the

13 building, it was only then that I spied this large group of soldiers.

14 Q. Now, you said that you then were standing next to a structure, a

15 house or a - I'm not sure the exact word you used - where beatings

16 started; is that correct?

17 A. It is. In front of the house, in the parking lot, a large one, in

18 front of the house.

19 Q. Okay. Witness, now I'm going to ask you to take the pen, and if

20 you can, place a number "1" at the location where you and the others

21 started crawling.

22 A. Okay.

23 Q. And then I'm going to ask you to place a number "2" at the place

24 where you and the others were standing when the beatings began.

25 A. I put here "1" and "2."

Page 6452

1 Q. All right. Now, Witness, we can see that well from here. Let me

2 ask you: The place that you've marked with the number "2," where the

3 beatings occurred, you've mentioned -- you've mentioned Tuta. Was Tuta

4 present when the beatings were taking place at that location?

5 A. Yes. He was in -- he was standing in front of his soldiers. We

6 were in a circle, and then his soldiers were around us, and he was

7 slightly in front of us, in our circle.

8 Q. And then you mentioned that you were taken to a third place that

9 is now not shown on this photograph. Could you tell us -- tell us more

10 about that, please.

11 A. We were beaten there, and then I was taken to this small house

12 which is "wattle and daub" which does not exist here, but it was there.

13 It was like a guard post. But I entered, I didn't stay there long, and

14 they immediately told me to get out and that Fikret Begic should go in.

15 And Fikret Begic entered, and they beat him, and I was beaten together

16 with all the rest over there.

17 And so they beat us, and all those others fell down, and only I

18 remained on my feet, and then one of them swore at the balija mother, "Why

19 isn't he down?" And then they battered me so that I fainted. And then I

20 was caught -- and then he caught me by my right shoulder and lifted me but

21 not quite, only so that I would be on my knees, and told me to pick

22 grapes. And I couldn't understand. What grapes? There are no grapes

23 around there. And then one of them was standing and had his arms

24 stretched to the left, to the right, in front of me, to make as if I were

25 picking grapes, although there were no grapes there. But that is only in

Page 6453

1 that position so that he could beat me easier on my stomach and other

2 parts of my body.

3 And then I saw Fikret Begic to my left, lying on his left side,

4 and Mr. Tuta beating him with his pistol on the head and requesting the

5 password to Jablanica. But we had nothing, and he kept beating Fikret

6 Begic on the head.

7 Q. Witness, let me stop you there for a moment, because I want to ask

8 you some more questions about what you've just said. First of all, could

9 I ask you to take the photograph again and to place a number "3" at the

10 location of this guard house or this place which does not appear any more,

11 at least in this photograph?

12 A. Well, yes, I put number "3" here.

13 Q. Now, you said that Fikret Begic was taken into that place after

14 you. Did you see anyone enter that shed or that place with him?

15 A. Why, yes. He entered this guard booth. Soldiers were standing in

16 front of it and told me to come out, and he went in. And I had to keep my

17 head down and move towards those others, and he went in and stayed there

18 behind me.

19 Q. I wanted to make sure we understood what you meant by this

20 "picking the grapes." What was your position, the position of your body,

21 while you were being told to pick the grapes?

22 A. On my knees. My knees were on the ground, and my feet were on the

23 ground; that is, I was down except that they put me up by my shoulder so

24 that my knees and my feet were on the ground and I was on my -- upright on

25 my knees.

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Page 6455

1 Q. What was the position of your arms as you were picking the

2 grapes?

3 A. Well, naturally, my hands were outstretched following his arms,

4 because he was raising them. He was turning in front of me and raising

5 them, and raising them to the left, and then I had to stretch to his left,

6 to get at the grapes, which he held in his hands - of course, he had

7 none - and then to the right-hand side. And others were beating me on

8 the stomach and other parts of my body.

9 Q. What were they beating you with?

10 A. Feet, army boots.

11 Q. Now, you also said that you saw Begic being struck with a pistol,

12 and I wanted to ask you again, who was doing that? Who was striking Begic

13 with the pistol?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

15 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honour, at this point I must object

16 to this type of an ID. I have reviewed the statement of this witness

17 quite thoroughly, and in his statement that he gave to the OTP, he says he

18 only saw my client one time and it was a glance. And this Tribunal, I

19 believe in other Chambers, has adopted the fleeting-glance theory adopted

20 from Great Britain, and I object to any identification based on the

21 fleeting-glance doctrine.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, first thing I would like to say is

23 that we haven't read that previous statement of this witness. We don't

24 know what happened in this particular moment, and we believe that it's a

25 very essential moment to this case, so we'll allow the Prosecutor to

Page 6456

1 continue with his question. And we don't believe that it will be

2 prejudicial to your client.

3 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Q. Now, Witness, my question was: Who was striking Fikret Begic with

6 the pistol?

7 A. Mr. Tuta was striking Fikret Begic with a pistol and asking if we

8 had any contact with Jablanica, if we were maintaining contact with

9 Jablanica. I didn't know who Tuta was. That was the first time I saw

10 him. But I concluded -- that is, I knew that Tuta was attacking us

11 because Dzemal Ovnovic had said that Tuta had called him to surrender, and

12 we were captured. They said that they had to turn us over to Tuta. And

13 then we were taken down there and beaten. And then I saw Tuta best after

14 I had fainted and when they put me up to beat me.

15 So I could not look much around while they beat me because they

16 were beating me too badly. But when they put me up, then I could see,

17 because I had to stretch my arms to pick those grapes. And it happened

18 several times I had to turn right and left; and when I would turn left, I

19 would look to the left, and I could see Fikret lying down and this

20 Mr. Tuta beating him. And I thought, well, that he must be the one

21 because one sees that he is in front of them. He's asking for the

22 contact, and it is -- one can see that he is a kind of a boss.

23 Q. Witness, how far away were you from Tuta and Fikret Begic when you

24 saw Begic being hit with the pistol?

25 A. Yes, this is true, 5 or 6 metres. Fikret Begic was lying on his

Page 6457

1 left side facing me, and Tuta was on his knees like I was and striking

2 him, and just face to face, and beating him with this pistol on the head.

3 So Tuta was to my right.

4 Q. Can you tell us, give us a description of this person Tuta. As

5 you saw him that day, give us the best description that you can.

6 A. I'll describe him to you now. He had glasses, quite thick lenses,

7 a few days' stubble, grey, quite grey. But medium beard, not really long

8 beard; medium, sort of. And I saw him best as he was kneeling for a long

9 time, because I was being beaten and picking those grapes, and I just cast

10 my eyes to the left and to the right, and I saw him kneeling and striking

11 Fikret Begic on his head with a pistol and requesting did we have

12 communication with Jablanica and where had we been heading and what was

13 our mission.

14 Q. What colour hair did Tuta have on that day?

15 A. I'm not sure about the hair because I was beaten all that time. I

16 saw as much I could see. So I saw a grey beard, I saw glasses.

17 Q. How was he dressed?

18 A. An army uniform.

19 Q. You said that he appeared to be a boss. Why do you say that?

20 A. Because when we were brought there, he stood in our circle in

21 front of us. And then I could only -- because I just cast a look, and I

22 barely noticed him, and the others were standing around us and beating us,

23 that is, in another circle around us and beating us.

24 And then when they took me over there to beat me, but they didn't

25 beat me in that smaller building, and it was then that this major battery

Page 6458

1 started. And then I saw him beat, demanding that contact and

2 questioning. He was the boss. He had even ordered to shoot Fikret Begic

3 and Adis Tasic. And if he could order that, that meant that he was number

4 one.

5 And after all that battery, he ordered that seven of us -- six --

6 six go to Ljubuski and the seventh would be taken back to the school

7 because it was Denis, underage, and Adis Tasic and Fikret Begic were to be

8 put before the firing squad. And then Blaz, Mr. Blaz from Jablanica, he

9 was a member of his unit, and he saved Fikret and Adis Tasic. He got Adis

10 Tasic by his hair in front of Tuta and said, "Tuta, you should remember

11 that I saved your life." So that means that he's number one.

12 Q. Witness, I want to make sure that we have the names accurately in

13 the record. Can you give us again the names of the two persons whom Tuta

14 ordered should be executed.

15 A. I can, sure. I repeat, Fikret Begic, F-i-k-r-e-t B-e-g-i-c, who

16 was beaten in the small house, and Adis Tasic, A-d-i-s T-a-s-i-c. Tuta

17 had ordered them to be put before the firing squad and executed and that

18 the others should be taken to Ljubuski.

19 Q. Okay, Witness, you then said that he ordered that you and the

20 others should be taken away. Tell us then what happened at this point.

21 What happened next?

22 A. And then the -- our names were taken down, and the money that we

23 had, they counted all the money and gave it back to us. They tied our

24 hands once again on our backs with the same rope as before in the woods.

25 And then they put us in a red Niva; that is, they put all eight of us

Page 6459

1 there, except that Blaz saved this Adis Tasic and Fikret, who were to stay

2 there in the field.

3 Q. Then did Begic and Tasic come with you and the others in that car?

4 A. Yes, they did.

5 Q. Now, from this place, this location that's shown in Exhibit 8.8,

6 where were you and the others taken?

7 A. They loaded us in this red Niva, and there was a car in front and

8 behind us with their soldiers. And then we went to Krcine; that was

9 towards Obruc. We couldn't get out there, and the car could not go up.

10 Then we had to push it. And as we did, I saw the village on fire. I saw

11 the stable of Kukic's house burning, and then we had to again bow our

12 heads. Then we were again put in the Niva, went to Sovicka Vrata. And

13 there, there were troops there. There, they made us come out, and they

14 wanted to chop our arms and legs off and other threats like that. And

15 then after that, we were -- we went on, and we did not stop until Ljubuski

16 any more.

17 Q. Now, Witness, since that day, the 20th of April, 1993, have you

18 ever returned to Sovici?

19 A. Never.

20 Q. Again, without giving us information that would identify you, can

21 you tell us, if you know, what happened to other members of your family

22 who were in Sovici on the 17th of April?

23 A. They were taken to the school. The military conscripts were taken

24 to Ljubuski, and the older ones and the underaged boys, they left in the

25 school. And the women and children were taken to Krcine. There was

Page 6460

1 somebody who was one of Tuta's soldiers, his name was Junuzovici, and in

2 his house some of these women and children stayed. They slept there for a

3 while, and then the buses arrived sometime at night and they were

4 transferred to Ljubuski -- no, to Gornji Vakuf. We learned that when we

5 came out of the camp and got reunited with our families. Then we were

6 told that they had been transferred to Krcine and from Krcine to Gornji

7 Vakuf, and then on to Prozor to Mount Makljen, and then they were taken

8 off the bus and made to walk towards Gornji Vakuf.

9 Q. Now, can you tell us, first of all, how long you remained in

10 Ljubuski and where were you held?

11 A. We were held in Ljubuski in solitary cells, very narrow, 1.5

12 metres by 5, and 14 or 15 men slept there in each of the rooms. I was in

13 number 5. It was very hot. We couldn't go to the toilet when we needed

14 to. We had to relieve ourselves in bottles. They took us to perform

15 labour, to unload -- actually, they loaded us on trucks, 100 of us in a

16 truck in a canopied truck, and it was terribly hot under the canopy there.

17 Q. And Witness, you said that there were 10 to 15 of you, I believe,

18 held in these -- in this cell. Who were those other prisoners? Where did

19 they come from?

20 A. There were others. Some were from Stolac, some SDA members who

21 had been taken prisoner earlier, and the ones from the school who were

22 transferred on Sunday, they -- they had surrendered in the Middle Mahala

23 and then they were taken to Ljubuski. On Sunday, the 20th, they were

24 transferred, until then they were in school. And we -- so we found them

25 again in Ljubuski, those who were in Middle Mahala, who were from our

Page 6461

1 village.

2 Q. And was the TO commander, Ovnovic, in Ljubuski?

3 A. Yes, he was. He was in cell number 5.

4 Q. What was his condition?

5 A. In very bad condition. He barely survived. Because they beat him

6 in Middle Mahala, and there was an order issued that he be executed, but

7 we found him in Ljubuski. And later on he told us that Prlic had told him

8 that an order had come that he should be executed along with another nine

9 men, that is, the -- that was our group - this is why we were brought

10 there three days later - but that he should not be afraid as long as Prlic

11 was at Ljubuski. But after we were to be taken from Ljubuski, he couldn't

12 guarantee anything for us. And 15 days later, a well-built man came into

13 cell number 6. I had never seen such a man of that build before. He had

14 handcuffs, two pistols --

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that last question was

17 simply what was his condition, being Ovnovic. I know this is videolink,

18 and I know we are pressed for time, but I do believe that the answer has

19 become non-responsive. The witness is rambling, and I object to this type

20 of answer.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, would you please give some

22 guidance to your witness or you may ask some specific questions, since we

23 have certain parts of the answer of this witness already.

24 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, I'll do it. He actually has

25 moved to the next thing I was going to ask him, so I thought I would just

Page 6462

1 let him continue, but I can direct the questions to the witness.

2 Q. Witness, let me just take you back. You indicated that there was

3 a group of prisoners who was going to be executed. Was that group

4 executed?

5 A. In Ljubuski?

6 Q. Yes, in Ljubuski.

7 A. Yes. I was out in the field. The Red Cross had registered us.

8 Which group? You mean the group of nine that Prlic said was supposed to

9 be executed?

10 Q. Let me ask you a couple more questions about that. Were there

11 some prisoners there who had been registered by the Red Cross?

12 A. Yes. We were registered.

13 Q. Were any prisoners who had been registered by the Red Cross, were

14 any of those prisoners executed?

15 A. Yes. Later on, they were executed in Mostar, in Santiceva Street,

16 those that were registered by the Red Cross.

17 Q. I want to just focus on Ljubuski now, not about Mostar. Was there

18 a group of prisoners that was going to be executed but then was not

19 executed for some reason?

20 A. Yes, you're right. It was like this: Several days later, Prlic

21 came to Dzemal Ovnovic and said that he had received an order from Tuta

22 that nine men were to be executed - that is, the eight of us and Dzemal

23 Ovnovic as the ninth - but that he would prevent it while we were under

24 his control, while we were in Ljubuski. But after we were -- we left

25 Ljubuski, he couldn't guarantee for us. But he said that an order had

Page 6463

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Page 6464

1 come, and Prlic said to Dzemal that nine men should have been executed,

2 including him. This is what Dzemal told us.

3 Q. Did the Red Cross registration have anything to do with the

4 protection that some prisoners received?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

6 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, that question is

7 speculative in nature. It calls for pure speculation, and I object on

8 that ground.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President --

10 JUDGE LIU: You may skip this question, Mr. Stringer.

11 MR. STRINGER: Very well.

12 Q. Witness, you mentioned also earlier that you and others were

13 approached by a large man when you were being held at the Ljubuski

14 prison. And can you please tell us what this person said to you.

15 A. Yes. Let me explain it all to you in detail. This huge man

16 entered the solitary and asked who had been captured at Doljani. We

17 didn't dare say. And then he recognised Muharem Cilic, because he knew

18 him from Pijesak, and he said, "You were lucky to have been captured only

19 one hour earlier." Why? Because Mr. Cikota, Tuta's deputy, was killed

20 one hour later, and he had ordered that any men that they found be

21 executed.

22 And later on, we learned through the others, after I left the

23 prison, that Denis Skender, when he left when he -- when he left Sovici,

24 that Tuta -- this man from Sovici was killed there. Because when we were

25 captured, they asked who else was there, and we said that there was Salko

Page 6465

1 there, and there was another Salko, but they said, "Well, fuck his

2 mother. You'll be where he went." That was Salko Eglemovic, and he was

3 the one who was actually executed.

4 Q. Now, I just want to be clear about what was said by this large man

5 that you've described. First of all, this large man, what was his title

6 or his position? Do you have any idea who he was or what group he

7 belonged to?

8 A. I don't know. He just walked in and later on went to number 5.

9 He beat up Dzemal Ovnovic. He really beat him severely. And then I

10 recognised this Muharem. "And are you from Doljani," he asked him? And

11 he said, "Yes." And he said, "If it had happened a bit later, you would

12 have all been killed because the order had come that you should all be

13 executed," because Cikota was killed an hour earlier.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. And fortunately, we were captured an hour early.

16 Q. All right. Now, Witness, how long did you remain detained at the

17 Ljubuski prison?

18 A. Two months.

19 Q. And then did you go to a different place?

20 A. To the Heliodrom in Mostar.

21 Q. How long did you remain held at the Heliodrom near Mostar?

22 A. The 1st of March, '94, when I was exchanged through the Red

23 Cross.

24 Q. Can you tell us about the conditions that existed in the Heliodrom

25 place where you were held?

Page 6466

1 A. We were also in large rooms, 70, 80, per room. And we were

2 constantly sent to work to Mostar, to the Santica Street, and different

3 parts of the front line, different locations. And when they lost some of

4 the ground, they would beat us. Ante Buhovac was the worst, and also

5 Miro , among those who were at the Heliodrom.

6 Q. When you said that when they lost some ground you would be beaten,

7 could you explain what you mean by that?

8 A. When the army would take some of their positions, then they would

9 beat us or we would not eat for a day or two. They wouldn't give us

10 anything to eat and things like that.

11 Q. Now, you said that you were held 70 to 80 people per room. Can

12 you just give us a description of who the other detainees were? Were they

13 any people that you knew, or were they from other locations?

14 A. There were men from other places, Stolac, Capljina, and our group,

15 another group from Ljubuski who came about 15 days before us. They were

16 taken from Ljubuski to be exchanged. And when we came to the Heliodrom,

17 we found seven of them in these rooms. We had thought that they had been

18 already exchanged.

19 Q. Were there any civilians among the prisoners that you were held

20 with?

21 A. Yes, there were civilians from our own village. There were

22 underaged boys. Fikret Tasic, for instance, was underage, and he was from

23 our village. And there were some elderly men, 70, 80 years of age.

24 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask that you be shown Exhibit 20.10, which

25 is a photograph. Witness, do you recognise that photograph?

Page 6467

1 A. Yes. The yellow -- three-storey yellow building, that -- this is

2 where we were imprisoned. Where that car is on the first floor is where

3 we were.

4 Q. Witness, could you take the pen and place a circle around the

5 building that you have just described.

6 A. Here, I circled it.

7 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, you mentioned that during the time you spent

8 at the Heliodrom, you were taken out to work on front line areas. Could

9 you tell us --

10 A. Yes, that is correct.

11 Q. Could you tell us how often, how frequently, you and others were

12 taken out to perform labour of this kind?

13 A. It was not set. It could be 15 days, and then maybe 10 minutes

14 later, I could be taken again. It depended on the unit, who came, and the

15 policeman would just enter from the hallway would point at some men. It

16 didn't matter whether you were working five days straight or not. You

17 never knew when they would come, day or night. They would just take you

18 off to go and work.

19 Q. Witness, could you give us or just tell us, if you recall, the

20 different locations where you performed labour and what type of labour,

21 what types of things you had to do on these locations?

22 A. We dug trenches between the lines, and then we sandbagged and

23 fortified the lines. And we placed sandbags in the windows and so on.

24 And my group cleared up the area in Glanica. This was just across from

25 the Heliodrom.

Page 6468

1 Q. Do you know the names of any of the locations you worked in

2 Mostar, in the city of Mostar itself?

3 A. I know the bridge near the station, the central station, when you

4 cross over to the right bank, over to the left. It was Tito's bridge, and

5 then right down the street from there.

6 Q. Does the name Vinko Martinovic, Stela, mean anything to you?

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is a suggestive question. I

9 object.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it is a suggestive question, Mr. Stringer. You

11 could not ask the name directly.

12 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Your Honour.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] But Mr. President, the damage has been

14 done already. I don't know how we can undo it.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, that depends on whether -- what kind of

16 information this witness will provide for us. Let us hear --

17 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. Seric has the statement, and I think he

18 knows this is not central to either parties' case. It is, nonetheless,

19 relevant, and the question would simply be to the witness if the witness

20 recalls who he worked for, what units he worked for at any time during his

21 detention.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with this follow-up

24 question, the damage has been increased. That is not at all how this

25 witness testified, so it's not correct at all.

Page 6469

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President --

2 JUDGE LIU: You might ask some questions about where this witness

3 was working at that time, whether he knows which unit he worked for at

4 that time. You may ask the question like this, but do not directly put

5 the accused's name to it. That's very suggestive.

6 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I didn't mean to be suggestive, and

7 I apologise if that's the view. I'll withdraw the question, and I have no

8 further questions for the witness.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is not fair at

11 all, because the witness never mentioned the name of Vinko Martinovic

12 anywhere in his statements.

13 MR. STRINGER: That's not correct.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, anyway, you have finished your direct

15 examination. Am I right?

16 MR. STRINGER: That's correct, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE LIU: So we'll not pursue this very issue. My suggestion is

18 that we have our break at this moment.

19 We'll resume at 4.00 sharp.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.25 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, cross-examination, please. Mr. Krsnik?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness. Let me introduce

Page 6470

1 myself. I am counsel for Mr. Mladen Naletilic. I will ask you questions,

2 and I will phrase them in such a way as to get from you the briefest

3 possible answers. Please, because of the videolink, we have some

4 problems, so will you please listen to my question until the end and

5 answer then, so as not to waste time unnecessarily.

6 My first question: When was the TO established in your village?

7 And were you called up, mobilised, or did you volunteer?

8 A. It was mobilised in 1992. I was a volunteer.

9 Q. Tell me, please, when was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

10 established?

11 A. In my village, in May 1992.

12 Q. In other words, a month after the Territorial Defence, is it?

13 A. Why, yes.

14 Q. And you then moved over to the BH army, is it?

15 A. Yes, that's right.

16 Q. All Muslims from the village joined the BH army, didn't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what about Croats?

19 A. In 1992, they were mobilised into the HVO too.

20 Q. Tell me, please, who supplied you with weapons?

21 A. I don't know. In the beginning, there were only five or six

22 rifles.

23 Q. But later, in late 1992 and early 1993?

24 A. Well, we were getting some weapons; some we purchased. People

25 managed.

Page 6471

1 Q. Were you all armed?

2 A. Yes, we were.

3 Q. And how many of you were there in the BH unit?

4 A. 100 soldiers, 100 conscripts.

5 Q. Were you also lent a hand by people from Jablanica and other

6 neighbouring villages?

7 A. Why, no.

8 Q. Did you have any heavy armament?

9 A. No, we did not.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please be asked to pause a

11 little before answering?

12 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you may not be familiar with the proceedings

13 before this Tribunal. Since you and the Defence counsel are speaking the

14 same language, please make a pause after you hear the question so that the

15 interpreter could pick up what you are going to say to us. Thank you.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Witness RR, how many statements have you given so far and to

18 whom?

19 A. When I left the camp, I gave it in Jablanica; and then in Sarajevo

20 to this one, to some American lawyer; and this one is the third.

21 Q. And who was it in Jablanica that you made your statement to?

22 A. I don't remember. Somebody from the army. I explained, I

23 described all that had happened in Sovici and in the camp. And then to

24 that lawyer in Sarajevo.

25 Q. And where is that statement that you made in Jablanica? Do you

Page 6472

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 6473

1 know where that statement is?

2 A. I don't. How could I?

3 Q. And when you went to Sarajevo, did you have that statement with

4 you when you went to Sarajevo?

5 A. I did, yes.

6 Q. And it was read out to you by The Hague investigators? You had it

7 with you when they interviewed you?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I had it.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a moment, please.

10 Your Honours, I would like to invite your intervention. This is the

11 second witness - we had the one yesterday, and this one today - they both

12 say that they made their statements to Bosnia-Herzegovinian authorities,

13 that they showed them to The Hague investigators, that they read them like

14 this witness now. We do not have this statement, the one that was made in

15 Jablanica.

16 And I should like to hear from my learned friends, where is that

17 statement; if they have it, to give it to us; if they do not, to explain

18 then why they don't have it, because the witness confirmed today that he

19 had this statement when talking to The Hague investigators and that it was

20 read out to him. In other words, the statement was to be an integral part

21 of his statement and should have been disclosed to us first, rather than

22 hear about it today. We never received that statement.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, would you please shed some light on this

24 matter.

25 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, the Bosnian

Page 6474

1 government statements are never an integral part of a statement taken by

2 the Office of the Prosecutor. Secondly, we don't have it. We don't -- I

3 don't know why we don't have it. We've looked. I'll ask that we look

4 again. I could be wrong, but it is not among the materials that have been

5 assembled for this witness's testimony. I can't say why we don't have

6 it. All I simply know is that we don't have it. I've never seen it.

7 Every AID or Bosnian government statement that we have was disclosed to

8 the Defence. That's all I can say, Mr. President, at this time. I'll ask

9 that our people do another search, but I can only inform the Trial Chamber

10 and counsel at this time that we don't have any such statement.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Krsnik.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Ole Brondum conducted

13 the interview on behalf of the OTP, I mean with this witness, so he did

14 have that statement. This is the first thing - because this witness has

15 just confirmed it - so this is number one.

16 Number two, it is not true that statements made before the

17 authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, notably, the AID, which obviously did

18 all that, that they do not make an integral part of every statement. So

19 far, we have them in 99 percent of the cases.

20 Now, when the witness said that he had it, that he would give it,

21 and The Hague investigators - and we have the name of that investigator -

22 that it was there and now all of a sudden it is not there. The same thing

23 happened yesterday. You will remember that yesterday I also said that we

24 had some procedural problems, but I didn't go into it. The witness also

25 said that he had given a statement, but we did not get it.

Page 6475

1 The Defence, you will understand, would very much like to know

2 what is in that statement.

3 JUDGE LIU: If the Prosecution has not got that statement, there's

4 no obligation for him to disclose that statement. If they have it and

5 they deliberately did not disclose to you, that's another matter. We will

6 make an inquiry into this matter, and I hope I could give you a

7 satisfactory answer on this particular issue.

8 You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

10 Q. Witness RR, do you remember the statement that you gave in

11 Sarajevo?

12 A. I do, yes.

13 Q. Do you perhaps have it with you? I mean, amongst the documents

14 that are -- tell me, please, Witness, who proofed you? Who talked to you

15 before today's testimony?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

17 MR. STRINGER: I can just inform counsel that it was our intent to

18 have the OTP witness statement in English, and in B/C/S at the location

19 with the witness. So Mr. Dubuisson should have it, just for your

20 information. It should be there.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, very much. In that case,

23 I'd like to ask Mr. Dubuisson, if he can hear me, to give the witness the

24 B/C/S version of his statement.

25 Q. And, Witness RR, will you tell me who proofed you for today's

Page 6476

1 testimony?

2 A. Do you need it?

3 Q. Yes, I think I do, Witness.

4 A. Well, I made a statement in Sarajevo and now here, this statement.

5 Q. No, no, no. My question is: Who prepared you for your today's

6 testimony? Who proofed you for this testimony today?

7 A. Well, this lawyer that I have.

8 Q. Can you give us his name?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Perhaps we should go into a private

10 session, Your Honours.

11 A. I can't remember his name. All I know is that he's a lawyer.

12 Q. And where does he come from, that lawyer?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

14 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I don't know what word may have been

15 given to the witness in his language for "proofing." I can inform counsel

16 that --

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, please, Your Honours. This

18 is not rudeness on my part. Your Honours, please, I'm waiting for the

19 witness to answer, and we've been waiting for it for a couple of minutes.

20 I think Mr. Stringer's intervention is merely to help the witness. The

21 witness said very clearly that he was proofed by a lawyer.

22 Q. And my question is: Where does this lawyer come from?

23 A. Where? Well it was that Mr. Stringer who called me and said that

24 I had to be present to make a statement.

25 Q. But a moment ago, you said "my lawyer."

Page 6477

1 A. Well, I don't know. I didn't get your question. It was

2 Stringer. I was with him, and he told me to turn up here at 8.00, that

3 is, at 4.00, to be a witness.

4 Q. And where did Mr. Stringer talk to you?

5 A. Well, in Bosnia. Why does it matter where? We met and we

6 prepared this statement that I should attend the trial. Why do you have

7 to know where it was that he prepared me?

8 Q. Well, I don't, as a matter of fact. Is it where you live?

9 A. Well, I don't see why I have to say it unless necessary.

10 Q. Tell me, did you go through maps, through photographs? Were you

11 shown photographs?

12 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, maps and photographs, exactly. And I have it

13 all, yes. That's it.

14 Q. Did you also see Mr. Naletilic's picture?

15 A. I don't have it here right now. I had it in Sarajevo. They asked

16 me if that is the man, and I said yes. But I remember him well. I don't

17 need his picture.

18 Q. Will you now please take this statement and turn to page 1.

19 A. I can do it, yes. It says: "Witness Statement."

20 Q. That's right. And will you look at the last sentence, the very

21 last sentence. It says: "Prior to the conflict with Croats, we were all

22 armed, mostly rifles, but also howitzers, 82 millimetre calibre. We had

23 two howitzers on our" --

24 A. Well, yes, it says: "Howitzers, 82." Well, no. That's what it

25 says. No, that's a mistake. There aren't howitzers, 82. It's 62,

Page 6478

1 mortars.

2 Q. Well, let's go through it slowly. Tell me, did you say that to

3 the investigators or didn't you?

4 A. Yes, I did. But these are not howitzers. These are mortars,

5 small, short. They are not ...

6 Q. Which means that you did have heavy weaponry?

7 A. Why, this is not heavy armament. That is not a large-calibre

8 weapon.

9 Q. You mean howitzers is not of a large calibre, or mortars?

10 A. Mortars. It says here "howitzers," but it's a mistake. It wasn't

11 howitzers. It was mortars.

12 Q. Tell me, who did you defend against in 1992 and early 1993? Who

13 threatened you as the BH army in that --

14 A. We were holding the positions against the Serbs, just in case if

15 something happened.

16 Q. Witness RR, will you please wait for me to finish my question

17 because of the interpreters. You immediately respond, and then we

18 overlap, and then the interpreters cannot follow. Thank you. Please be

19 patient. Wait for me to finish my question. So let me come to the end of

20 my question.

21 In your last sentence you said, "Allegedly from Serbs."

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Why allegedly? Were Serbs a menace at the time? Did they

24 threaten you in any way?

25 A. Well, we were mobilised by the HVO and the BH army to hold

Page 6479

1 positions in case of an assault by the Serbs.

2 Q. And tell me, what was the strategic relevance of your village for

3 an assault there to take place?

4 A. Because Kupres is there, and that is the Serb zone. That is why

5 we were mobilised. I have no idea.

6 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell this Chamber how far is

7 Kupres from your village?

8 A. Rather far.

9 Q. And tell me, what were your contacts? Who was your superior, I

10 mean, in your village?

11 A. Dzemal Ovnovic.

12 Q. And who was his superior?

13 A. Ernest Kovacevic in Jablanica.

14 Q. He was the commander of what? I mean this large gentleman Ernest

15 Kovacevic that you mentioned.

16 A. Ernest Kovacevic? Well, of the 1st and the 2nd, and the 3rd and

17 4th battalions. The commander of the municipality.

18 Q. And you were which battalion of that brigade?

19 A. The 4th Battalion, Sovici.

20 Q. Were you trained?

21 A. No, I had no training.

22 Q. Does the nickname Kulje ring a bell with you?

23 A. Kulje? Oh, Kulje, that's a commander. He was something in the

24 command in Jablanica. The command -- commander of the 1st Battalion.

25 Q. Why didn't he come to Sovici to train you?

Page 6480

1 A. I have no idea.

2 Q. And does the name Rasim Pilav ring any bell with you?

3 A. Rasim what?

4 Q. Pilav?

5 A. Oh, Pilav. No, it doesn't.

6 Q. And what about Mustafa Cobanov?

7 A. These are people whom I met later on when I left the camp, just

8 ordinary people from the municipality of Prozor.

9 Q. Didn't they train you?

10 A. Nobody trained us. Let us resolve it once and for all and move

11 on.

12 Q. And who brought food to you whilst you were on the positions?

13 Whilst you were in the army, who brought the weapons?

14 A. Food, we brought from home. Just take it from home and take it to

15 the line. And once the shift is over, you go back home.

16 Q. You mean that as a member of the BH army, an organised brigade in

17 which you were the 4th Battalion, and that you had no logistics

18 whatsoever?

19 A. We had small logistics for the shifts, just the rudimentary

20 things.

21 Q. And who brought you the ammunition?

22 A. The ammunition was -- was in the depot.

23 Q. And where were the depots?

24 A. Well, something was at Dzemal Ovnovic's, a small storage.

25 Q. And where else?

Page 6481

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Page 6482

1 A. I do not know if there was anything else.

2 Q. And tell me, please, would any rounds of fire be -- rounds be

3 fired at night when one would go through Sovici or Doljani, '93 from

4 January onward?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

6 MR. STRINGER: I was going to ask if counsel could give us the

7 time frame. I wasn't sure if we were talking about 1992 still, but he did

8 that at the very end of his question. So I think I understand now.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague is just

11 advising me that he will have no questions, so in order to manage the

12 clock.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In 1993, let's say from January onward, there were no frictions

16 between Muslims and Croats? There were no night shootings, the bombings,

17 and things like that?

18 A. Not so much.

19 Q. What do you mean "not so much"? Was there a little, or were there

20 any?

21 A. No, there wasn't anything. Only if there was somebody's birthday

22 or something.

23 Q. You mean if there was some kind of celebration, somebody's

24 birthday or somebody's wedding?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6483

1 Q. Again, I have to advise you, Witness - and it may be my mistake,

2 too - please wait until I'm finished with your -- with my question. It is

3 difficult for everybody else to follow. We speak the same language.

4 Croats were able to freely move about the village?

5 A. Yes, they had free movement.

6 Q. Tell me, this position at Kamen that you held, was that not

7 directly above Croat homes?

8 A. That position was not held. It was held on the 15th April, when

9 the attack on Jablanica started. Then the Croats went to Middle Mahala,

10 and we had to establish a position facing them.

11 Q. Where was your command post?

12 A. The command post?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. In Himza Begic's house, in Begic's house.

15 Q. Is that the hamlet of Begici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You see, we had a witness here - I'm not allowed to give you the

18 name now - who said that the main headquarters was at the Kamen.

19 A. That is not true.

20 Q. So it is not true?

21 A. The correct answer is that it is not true.

22 Q. I will just ask you to repeat for the transcript, for the record,

23 the Begic houses. In other words, where was the command post? Where was

24 the headquarters? Just repeat it, what you just said.

25 A. It was Himza Begic's house in the hamlet of Begici.

Page 6484

1 Q. And this is where your commander was staying?

2 A. That is where we changed shifts.

3 Q. And tell me, who was his deputy? Who was his logistics assistant,

4 assistant for security and so on? Because you were in a battalion, after

5 all.

6 A. Hama Kovac.

7 Q. And for the logistics and security?

8 A. I don't remember.

9 Q. Did you have radio communication with Jablanica at the

10 headquarters with your command?

11 A. Yes. There was an RUP-12 system.

12 Q. And when you were at the positions, you had the Motorolas so that

13 you could communicate with your command post in the village; right?

14 A. Yes, hand-held Motorolas.

15 Q. And you were able to communicate non-stop; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, because we don't have any maps, can you tell us, as

18 accurately as possible, what were the positions held by the ABiH? Let's

19 say first outside the village. And please list them very slowly because

20 even the ones you had mentioned previously were not entered into the

21 record. So let's go very slowly.

22 A. Mackovice, Duga Gruda.

23 Q. Just take it easy.

24 A. In other words, Mackovice, Duga Gruda, Pasje Stijene, and Povrsak.

25 Q. And in the village?

Page 6485

1 A. There was nothing in the village. Just the night watches.

2 Q. You have your statement in front of you. I can see it on the

3 monitor. Will you please go to paragraph 4 from the bottom. The last

4 sentence, you say: "We agreed that the Croats would hold the position in

5 their part of the village and we would do it in our own." So you did have

6 lines?

7 A. No. These were just patrols. These were night patrols, three-men

8 patrols, that made rounds.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, can I ask what's the relevance for

10 those questions? You have spent 35 minutes, but we are still to come to

11 the central issues of your cross-examination. Are you disputing that the

12 witness was not here -- was not there on that day? If there is no

13 dispute, could we move on?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there are a lot of

15 things in dispute with this witness. And we have already heard a number

16 of witnesses. So let's hear them out, and we will obviously analyse their

17 statements. We are already working on it. And it is not possible that

18 there are so many discrepancies. They all lived in the same village, and

19 as far as this witness is concerned, he can hear me, but there are a lot

20 of things in dispute regarding this witness, and we are going to dispute

21 many things about his evidence.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer?

23 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, for the record, I think the witness

24 can hear what we are saying, and I don't think it's appropriate for

25 counsel to make statements regarding his views of the credibility or the

Page 6486

1 reliability of the testimony of a witness while the witness is in the

2 course of testifying. If he wants to make that argument, there is another

3 time and another place to do that.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, we hope you could get over this part of

5 the cross-examination as soon as possible.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Q. Witness, can you tell me about the positions that you just

8 enumerated, above the village? Did that make the village surrounded?

9 A. Yes. It was surrounded by the Croats.

10 Q. Can you tell me, the watches in the village, you had your own and

11 the Croats had their own, or were they mixed? I'd just like to finish

12 with the distinction between the watches and the lines.

13 A. At night, we had it in our part of the village and they had it in

14 theirs.

15 Q. Very well, you see, thank you.

16 Now, tell me, please, when did the attack start? What was the

17 date? According to you, when do you say the attack started?

18 A. It was on the Saturday of 17th April, 1993. And as far as the

19 shelling is concerned, that started earlier.

20 Q. Very well. Very well.

21 A. It's not very well. That's how it is.

22 Q. Will you please be so kind and just listen to my questions. Where

23 were you on the 17th of April at 8.00?

24 A. I was at home.

25 Q. Will you please take your statement, turn to page 2, and look at

Page 6487

1 paragraph 2 from the bottom, because you say there: "When the attack

2 started, I was at the position called Kamen." In other words, you were

3 not at home. You were on the position.

4 A. I was at home when the shelling of Mackovice started, but it was

5 so close that it took me only several minutes to reach my position.

6 Q. And you saw the village being shelled?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Now, move down to the next paragraph. It says: "I was in

9 a trench with a fellow soldier when the attack started, and I had my back

10 towards the village so that I could not see the shelling of the village."

11 A. Yes. That is my vantage point, but I could not see the exact

12 houses that were being hit, but of course I was aware of the fact that the

13 village was being shelled.

14 Q. So what is written in this statement is not true.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into the private session

16 now? I'm going to need to mention some names.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 6488

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Page 6493

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13 [redacted]

14 [Open session]

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Very well. To quote you, let's go to the main thing. So please

17 tell me, how long did you observe the man whom you called Tuta? And how

18 did you know that this was Tuta and not someone else?

19 A. Because when they took us prisoner, it was four Croat soldiers,

20 and when they were tying our hands, they told us that they had to turn us

21 over to Mr. Tuta, and then --

22 Q. Excuse me, just a moment. So four men told you that they were

23 taking you to Tuta?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And to whom did they bring you? You said that there were 100

Page 6494

1 soldiers there.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Just a moment. 100 soldiers. You even said today up to 200?

4 A. 100 to 200. There were a lot of soldiers; that's correct.

5 Q. And now, how did you know and what did they say? "Here, this is

6 Tuta"? Is that how it was?

7 A. They did not say that this was Tuta, but they brought us into a

8 circle of soldiers and Tuta was in front of them, and we saw that he is

9 the main one, the one in charge.

10 Q. When you say that Tuta was in front of them, how did you know that

11 it was Tuta?

12 A. Because they told us that they were taking us to Tuta. He was

13 there in front of the soldiers. So he was the main one, because he was

14 there.

15 Q. In other words, Witness, you concluded?

16 A. That is correct, yes.

17 Q. So this is your inference, conclusion?

18 A. Yes, correct.

19 Q. Had anyone else stood in front of the soldiers, you would have

20 made the same conclusion?

21 A. Later on, when I was shown pictures, I concluded that it was him.

22 Q. And also, do you allow, when you concluded that, that perhaps it

23 was not Tuta?

24 A. I cannot conclude that he was not Tuta when he was. In Sarajevo,

25 they asked me whether that was the man, and I said it was.

Page 6495

1 Q. Now, tell me, please, how thick were the glasses that this man

2 that you called Tuta had?

3 A. It was thick.

4 Q. We can see your fingers. Perhaps you can show us.

5 A. Well, rather thick. Not too much, but they were not regular.

6 Q. Can we say that they were two to three centimetres thick?

7 A. No, we cannot say that. And I was too far, so I wasn't able to

8 say how far, and again, I wasn't free to observe very clearly.

9 Q. You weren't free to look, but you still made a conclusion, and you

10 still made this observation?

11 A. But later on, when I was made to pick grapes, the grapes, that's

12 when I looked at him very clearly.

13 Q. Tell me, how many pictures did they show you in Sarajevo?

14 A. Quite a few, ten.

15 Q. His?

16 A. Different ones. And they asked me which one was his, so that they

17 would be assured that I was clear on who he was. And then -- and then

18 this American lawyer said that this was true.

19 Q. And tell me, what are these American forces which interviewed you?

20 A. Well, that lawyer who investigated that statement, whether that

21 was so.

22 Q. Did everybody wear a beard and have hair and glasses on the

23 photographs?

24 A. No, they didn't.

25 Q. Tell me, please, are you still -- that to this day, you did not

Page 6496

1 know what that man's hair is coloured and how long it was and what colour

2 it was?

3 A. No. All I remember is grey beard, glasses, and that is it.

4 Q. And how tall was he?

5 A. How tall? Well, about 185, thereabouts. Rather tall.

6 Q. Rather tall. And what about his age?

7 A. Well, I said 35 then, but I think he was older.

8 Q. But you said 35 where?

9 A. In the statement. I think that is what the statement said. But

10 he was much older. It was simply fear.

11 Q. Fear of whom?

12 A. Well, well, at that time, about his years, a few years more. I

13 couldn't really say exactly because I was very afraid.

14 Q. Tell me, how was this man built?

15 A. Well, just simple.

16 Q. Like you, or as I -- I mean, as I see you or as you see me, was he

17 bigger, stronger?

18 A. Well, no, like me.

19 Q. Like you. Could you please straighten up?

20 A. Yeah, sure.

21 Q. And what about your weight? How much do you weigh?

22 A. Now, I'm 102 kilogrammes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 You said that the reason for the beating was to find out what kind

25 of communication you had with Jablanica and the like, isn't it, when you

Page 6497

1 were asked questions by the Prosecutor?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. But you see in your statement which you gave over there -- and you

4 have it here, too. That is page -- let me see which one it is. The

5 fourth, page 4.

6 A. Yeah, 4.

7 Q. That's right. You said that he beat him in order to find out who

8 was the -- who was your group's commander.

9 A. Yes, group's, yes. He knew who was the commander, because

10 otherwise he wouldn't have called Dzemal. But he wanted to find out who

11 was the group leader, whether we had communication with Jablanica.

12 Q. Witness RR, I'm being warned that my last question when I asked if

13 he looked like you, that was not in the transcript. And then you said

14 that he looked like you, and then I asked you how much did you weigh and

15 what did you say?

16 A. I said 102 kilograms.

17 Q. And you said he looked like you?

18 A. Well, yes. He's roughly my build.

19 Q. Your build. Aha, I see. Thank you very much. It is only for the

20 record.

21 I apologise, Witness RR. I have to do it once again. So my

22 question was: Was he built like you?

23 A. Yes, he's about my height, my build.

24 Q. You said that you had to keep your head down throughout?

25 A. Yes, except when I picked grapes. Then I had to get those grapes

Page 6498

1 from the hands.

2 Q. And tell me, do you know who were those soldiers who happened to

3 be there, those 100, 200 soldiers? Where did they come from? Who were

4 they? What were they?

5 A. Well, they were from Jablanica, because they had come out from

6 there, and Prozor had fallen, and they were in Doljani accommodated. That

7 is, soldiers -- the Croat council from the Jablanica municipality.

8 Q. And those were those men by whom you were encircled in front of

9 that hut?

10 A. And there were some soldiers that I didn't know. Tuta's troops

11 who had taken the village, Duga Grude, and --

12 Q. Witness, please, how do you know that they were Tuta's troops?

13 How do you know that?

14 A. We know it because that one from Jablanica, Blaz, he was in

15 Croat -- I mean Tuta's army. And Tuta also called that Dzemal, so one

16 knew it was Tuta's troops. And this one from Junozovici, our Muslim who

17 was in his army, and he knew that it was his army.

18 Q. So tell me, please, what is this Blaz's last name?

19 A. Blaz -- I can't remember his last name.

20 Q. Mm-hm. And then it was only through these two that you concluded

21 that everybody else was Tuta's men, or what you said Tuta's army?

22 A. Tuta's army, yes, Tuta's troops.

23 Q. And on the base of that, you again conjectured that it was Tuta's

24 army on the base of those two?

25 A. No, not those two unknown soldiers. Tuta's troops, Tuta's army,

Page 6499

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Page 6500

1 because they said they were going to turn us over to Tuta's troops, to

2 Tuta's army.

3 Q. Did they have any patches, any insignia on their uniforms? Did

4 they have any markings?

5 A. Well, on their shoulders, they had HVO patches.

6 Q. And that Tuta called Dzemal, that's the story that you told us

7 before, is it?

8 A. Yes, yes. About those. That's right.

9 Q. Aha. Very well.

10 Now, tell me, was there -- excuse me. Was there somebody -- I

11 think you mentioned somebody minor, somebody who was underage.

12 A. Oh, Fikret Tasic, who was in the camp, yes.

13 Q. No, no, I mean in front of the house in Doljani.

14 A. Oh, yes, Denis Skender.

15 Q. And he was released and taken to the school?

16 A. He was taken to the school. He was underage. Neighbours took him

17 to the school.

18 Q. Oh, and neighbours did. And nobody touched him, did they? --

19 A. Well, at the time when we were captured, our hands were tied, and

20 he was behind our backs. And he was saying that he was simply found there

21 with his pals, that he had done nothing, and he was crying and begging

22 them let him go. So they did let him go, and it was only later that I

23 learned that he had been transferred to the school.

24 Q. I see. And tell me, then, they put you, you say, into a red car,

25 Niva make --

Page 6501

1 A. Yes, Niva.

2 Q. What is it, Lada Niva?

3 A. No -- yes, it is Lada Niva.

4 Q. How many people can fit into that Lada Niva?

5 A. How many? I don't know. But they loaded us all into that Niva.

6 Q. How many?

7 A. Eight of us.

8 Q. Eight of you. And they loaded you all into the Lada Niva?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Very well.

11 JUDGE CLARK: It's a story we used to tell at school, "How many

12 people can you fit into a Lada?"

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That's why I asked. Because we have

14 the same story, about Zaporozec, and about Ladas. Zaporozec is that other

15 car.

16 Q. Right. So and how many men guarded you? Were you alone with the

17 driver?

18 A. Next to the driver was a soldier who ordered us not to -- not to

19 look up, and he had the rifle with him. So there were two of them in

20 front.

21 Q. Very well. Now, tell us, as you were driving towards Ljubuski --

22 that is, you were moving towards Obruc and then to Sovicka Vrata. If I am

23 correct, you took that road. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. And you said that you saw a cow shed on fire, that it was some

Page 6502

1 neighbour's of yours, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, Kukic's cow shed. When we got out of the vehicle, because

3 the car couldn't get out, so he told us to get off. And then we looked

4 around and saw Kukic's cow shed on fire and so on.

5 Q. Aha, very well. And tell us, did those soldiers treat you well?

6 Did they treat you to beer, to Coca-Cola?

7 A. Yes, they gave us some juices.

8 Q. Mm-hm. I see. Very well. And now, you arrived in Ljubuski. Now

9 you see we are moving there. We are in Ljubuski now. And you said that

10 you couldn't go to toilet and things like that?

11 A. Yes, we were locked up.

12 Q. Right. But now, will you please have a look -- it is page 7, if

13 I'm correct. Will you please turn it?

14 A. Sure, I can.

15 Q. Now, one, two, three, four, five, sixth passage from above?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you say: "First we were not permitted to go to the toilet.

18 We were given some bottles to relieve in."

19 A. That's right.

20 Q. "We could use the toilet only on our way to meals, and we ate

21 standing in the yard."

22 A. Yes, that's so. It is true. On Sundays, we could do our laundry

23 and clean the cell.

24 Q. Yes, is that so?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6503

1 Q. Now, tell me, but were you treated correctly at Ljubuski? You,

2 you personally, were you treated correctly?

3 A. Well, rather.

4 Q. And what about others? I mean, I'm asking you. Give me a candid

5 answer.

6 A. Well, no, because Dzemal Ovnovic was beaten and others and others

7 too who were brought from Prozor seven days later, Hasib Lulic and so on.

8 Q. But otherwise, what was the treatment like? Was it correct? Was

9 it okay?

10 A. Why, yes, in comparison with what went on in Mostar.

11 Q. I apologise. I have to take you back a little to that hut before

12 you got to Ljubuski to tell us how is it that Tuta struck -- strike that

13 man? You say that Tuta beat him. Now --

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Now, with what hand did he beat him, and how did he hold that

16 pistol?

17 A. Well, as I picked those grapes and I looked to the left and Fikret

18 Begic was lying on the left side.

19 Q. Yes. We all -- we heard you all from your answer. I'm sorry to

20 interrupt you. I'm asking you about --

21 A. Yes, yes, yes, I understood. Now I will explain it to you. Now,

22 he was on his -- kneeling above his head and holding his pistol by the

23 barrel -- by the barrel. He was hitting him on the head. And he was

24 striking him on the head, asking for the Motorola and what was our

25 assignment.

Page 6504

1 Q. Will you please tell us in what hand.

2 A. Right one, the right hand. And Tuta had his right shoulder to me.

3 Q. So if I understand, he had the barrel turned towards him; isn't

4 it?

5 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's how he beat him. Yes. He was beating him

6 with the -- with the handle of the pistol.

7 Q. And only Tuta hit him with the pistol?

8 A. Yes. There. But before that, he was taken inside. When I was in

9 the hut, they took me out and took him in, and they beat him there, and

10 then they beat us over here, and then they took him out, and then they

11 beat him separately.

12 Q. Right. Now go to one page before. You have the statement in

13 front of you. And look at the second passage. And that is what you say:

14 "I saw a soldier beat Fikret Begic in the face with a pistol. That

15 pistol had a Croat sign," and then in brackets, "the checkerboard." "He

16 held a pistol in his right hand, and I think he held it by the barrel

17 because I could see the mark on the handle. That is why I think that

18 Fikret was beaten with the handle. That person gave the order to

19 liquidate Fikret Begic." Now, that soldier, who was that soldier?

20 A. Tuta, sir.

21 Q. Tuta. I see. Fikret Begic. And so that soldier, you say clearly

22 "one soldier," and that one soldier was number one amongst them?

23 A. Yes, that's him. Tuta, yes. I -- ordered to shoot him and the

24 others off to Ljubuski.

25 Q. Now, go down to passage 6 which begins as follows: "I had the

Page 6505

1 possibility I could cast a glance at Tuta as I was kneeling." You see, "I

2 was in front of the house where Tuta was beating." Now you say "Tuta."

3 Now it's no longer a soldier.

4 A. Yes, Tuta. He, a soldier, naturally.

5 Q. Mm-hm. "And I was 5 or 6 metres away, and I had my left side to

6 the place where he was doing that."

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. So it is not -- it is not two different men, is it?

9 A. No. It is not two different men. It is one. As I said, I was

10 about 5, 6 metres away from him, and Tuta left, and he was beating Fikret

11 there.

12 Q. I see. Thank you very much. I believe we've cleared this up

13 now.

14 And my last question, please be so kind - this is about Ljubuski -

15 was: Were all of you treated correctly, generally speaking?

16 A. Not all of us, naturally.

17 Q. Did some people come? I mean they would come and beat you?

18 A. Yes, one came. A huge behemoth of a man came.

19 Q. Did he beat you, that huge behemoth of a man?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. You too?

22 A. No. He asked me, "What's it that you have?" I had a

23 many-coloured T-shirt and the others didn't. And then he hit, and then

24 fainted, and then he went out and beat Dzemal Ovnovic and told Muharem

25 Cilic -- he said to Muharem Cilic, well, had we been captured one hour

Page 6506

1 later, he would have killed us all, because -- because Cikota was killed

2 one hour after we had been captured and he had issued the order to execute

3 every single man, every single male after that.

4 Q. And who told you that?

5 A. Muharem. And that's quite true, because when Denis came out in

6 Sovici, after a while Salko Eglemovic was taken out and executed by a

7 firing squad in Doljani. And on the 18th, we last saw him in Pasanica;

8 Eglemovic, that is. We separated, and I did not hear about him after

9 that.

10 Q. I don't know. Are you answering my question or what? Because I

11 asked you a very simple question, whether you were beaten by this big man

12 who entered.

13 A. No, he didn't beat us; I mean, not me.

14 Q. Well, that is my question. I didn't want to interrupt you.

15 A. No, but I wanted to explain who he did beat, and that was Dzemal

16 Ovnovic, and what he said.

17 Q. Mm-hm. Yeah. Well, and who told you that story that you were on

18 the list and your commander -- I mean on the list to be shot when you

19 answered?

20 A. Dzemal Ovnovic told us that Prlic had told him that the order had

21 arrived from Tuta to execute nine men - that is, he and eight others; that

22 is, we - because we were captured after three days because we had not

23 surrendered. And he said that everything would be all right as long as we

24 were in Ljubuski, but the moment that we left Ljubuski, he could not

25 guarantee anything.

Page 6507

1 Q. I see. Now, will you go one page forward in your statement. And

2 look at what you said to the investigators. This same thing that you told

3 us now. Look at what you told the investigators: "Later on, my commander

4 from Sovici told me that about a month after we arrived in prison, the

5 prison commander notified our commander that he and I were on the list of

6 ten prisoners who were to be killed because we from the village of Sovici

7 had not surrendered straight away. But the prison commander did not allow

8 that to happen because the International Committee of the Red Cross had

9 already visited the prison and registered us. He also told our commander

10 that such things would not happen as long as he was in charge of that

11 prison."

12 And now, we shall move on for the Chamber's benefit. "After that,

13 another 20 prisoners were taken from the prison," which is a completely

14 different story, "and nobody ever found out what had happened to them. It

15 was said that Tuta needed them for some kind of work."

16 So you see, Tuta is not mentioned anywhere but absolutely nothing,

17 any execution, that he ordered any execution - and this is what you say in

18 1997 - and you merely introduce Tuta here as if he needed some 20

19 prisoners. Outside the context, I read it on purpose for the Chamber so

20 that the Chamber can get a full picture.

21 Now, how do you explain that? You gave us a very nice story, how

22 your commander learned it from the Ljubuski commander. But Tuta is

23 nowhere to be found, nowhere.

24 A. I didn't mention his name in the statement; is that what you're

25 saying?

Page 6508

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Page 6509

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Well, that is what I said, but they simply didn't put it in the

3 statement.

4 Q. Right. Tell me, please, now you are going to the Heliodrom; is

5 that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So let's now go to Heliodrom; right?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Will you please be so kind as to tell me how were you treated at

10 the Heliodrom, what was the food like, who guarded you, who commanded that

11 camp, and so on.

12 A. We were brought to the Heliodrom because allegedly at Ljubuski, we

13 were called out for exchange, but we realised immediately that nothing

14 would come out of it. We realised that they were lying. And there were

15 buses parked, and we got into them and to Heliodrom. And when we went

16 into the passage, and immediately we saw some who had -- I immediately saw

17 some of our men who had allegedly been taken for exchange 15 days before

18 that, but we saw them there. And after that, we started going to work,

19 day or night, and we never knew when we could go to sleep and could have a

20 rest. And it was Buhavac who beat us badly and Miro. That was a

21 Bosnian. They were in the --

22 Q. I could see that you are a narrative type of person and that you

23 like to talk, but I'll ask you some questions. At the Heliodrom, there

24 were only men. Is that correct, according to you?

25 A. No, it's not true. There were also women on the third floor.

Page 6510

1 There were some women there.

2 Q. How many women were there?

3 A. Three or four.

4 Q. Three or four?

5 A. As far as I know.

6 Q. Were they members of the army, too?

7 A. I don't know. That's a different municipality. I never saw

8 them. I could only see that there were some females there, and I think

9 they came from Prozor because I didn't know them before.

10 Q. And tell me, please, apart from those three or four, you were all

11 men, weren't you?

12 A. Yeah. In my department, there were all men.

13 Q. And what was the food like?

14 A. We had one quarter for a meal; I mean, some pasta and things of

15 that sort.

16 Q. Did you have three meals a day, breakfast, lunch, and supper?

17 A. Yes, but when the Muslims -- when the Muslim forces attacked, then

18 at times they wouldn't give us any food for two days.

19 Q. Could you take showers?

20 A. Yes. There was one shower for 200 of us in three rooms or more.

21 Q. Could you take as many showers as you liked?

22 A. Why, yes, it was open. There was this passage, and it was there.

23 Q. And did you get one quarter of a loaf of bread for every meal?

24 For breakfast, lunch, supper, a quarter of one kilo loaf?

25 A. Yes, we did.

Page 6511

1 Q. Tell me, who guarded you? Who commanded this camp?

2 A. I forget the commander's name. There was Ante, but the name of

3 Ante Buhovac, or Miro's, I'll never forget.

4 Q. Right, fine. You've told us that already.

5 A. I did.

6 Q. And did military police members guard and provide security for the

7 camp?

8 A. Members of the military police, yes.

9 Q. I mean the HVO.

10 A. Well, of course.

11 Q. Were they at the entrance into every building and every room, and

12 could anyone come out without their approval?

13 A. No, nobody could get out without their knowledge.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is half past

15 5.00. And during the break, I will see whether I have any further

16 questions, but I think I am drawing to the end of my cross-examination. I

17 think I'll finish soon.

18 JUDGE LIU: We'll resume at 6.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 6.00 p.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Witness, we left off at the Heliodrom; do you remember?

24 A. I do remember.

25 Q. And I believe that my last question to you was regarding the water

Page 6512

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Page 6513

1 and the shower facilities. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I think that the last answer to my question when I asked if

4 you could shower as much as you wanted, you said yes.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And that you had plenty of water that you could use, as much water

7 as you wanted to; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Tell me, we were also talking about the military police.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. My question was whether anyone could enter or leave without the

12 permission of the military police.

13 A. They could not.

14 Q. Were lists of men who were leaving made?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And when you would be coming back, these lists were checked; is

17 that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could anyone come and say, "Come with me," without it being

20 registered and approved by the military police?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Thank you. I'm just controlling the record, Witness, for your

23 information.

24 Tell me, did you ever see the man whom you called Tuta at the

25 Heliodrom?

Page 6514

1 A. No, never saw him there.

2 Q. I only have several other questions for you, which I consolidated

3 during the break, and I'm just going to recapitulate things and take you

4 back to Sovici.

5 A. Go ahead.

6 Q. You said today that the soldiers were wearing uniforms and some of

7 them were black, and today you said that you had a -- that they had HVO

8 insignia on them.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also gave evidence today that the man whom you called Tuta

11 also had a uniform.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'm going to ask you to go back to page 4 in your statement,

14 page -- I mean paragraph 8 from the top, in the B/C/S version. And this

15 is where you say this: "I do not remember what kind of uniforms the

16 soldiers had, and I did not see any insignia." Page 6 in the English

17 version. "I do not remember what kind of uniform that this Tuta had."

18 I'm going to ask you this: Does this refresh your memory? Did someone

19 else refresh your memory on this? How do you know today what kind of

20 uniform it was?

21 A. I thought a bit harder, and I remembered that it was also a

22 camouflage, multi-colour uniform.

23 Q. And the insignia?

24 A. They all had the same insignia and the camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. Witness, you said that you did not see any insignia. And that was

Page 6515

1 my question.

2 A. I did see them. I did.

3 Q. So what is stated here in the statement is not true?

4 A. I did see it.

5 Q. Can you hear me?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. As I said, what you stated in the statement, that you did not see

8 any insignia, that is not true?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Tell me, when you say about -- when you say "dress" or "clothing,"

11 you are referring to uniform? You're not referral to civilian clothes,

12 like a suit?

13 A. No, no. The military clothing is what I'm referring to.

14 Q. Tell me, today you said to my learned friend about these two men -

15 I'm not going to mention their names - that an order had come that they be

16 executed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that that Blaz did not allow that. Was perhaps he the

19 commander? Was he a superior commander?

20 A. He was not superior, but he knew Adis Tasic, and he moved him out

21 of harm's way.

22 Q. Was he some kind of commander there?

23 A. I don't know.

24 Q. Tell me, please, where and when did you talk for the last time

25 with Mr. Stringer?

Page 6516

1 A. Mr. Stringer?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. The last time, last Friday.

4 Q. And where?

5 A. It is not important where. It was at this desk.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

7 MR. STRINGER: Well, I think it's just a matter of the location of

8 the witness which, I think, is not something that is intended to be

9 disclosed publicly.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may skip this question.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not think -- I

12 wasn't asking for an address. I did not ask for the house. I was

13 referring to the country, and I think that that was clear. I'm not

14 interested at all in the address, the house, or --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're not small --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The country is not important either.

18 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, it's just that Mr. Krsnik did not

19 really make, in my view, a sufficient enough question to enable the

20 witness to answer the question without disclosing where he is now. He

21 asked, "Where and when did you talk for the last time with Mr. Stringer?"

22 So I'm not objecting to the line of questioning; it's just any questions

23 which would tend to indicate the present location of the witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: We don't believe that is essentially an important

25 question, Mr. Krsnik.

Page 6517

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] If we hear what country this is,

2 perhaps that can be of importance, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. STRINGER: I disagree, Your Honour, and I object to any

5 questions which would tend to disclose the location of the witness.

6 JUDGE CLARK: The witness has already answered, Mr. Krsnik. It's

7 at that desk that's shown in the video, so we all know.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are questions for small

9 children.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I agree, Witness, perhaps they are.

11 Perhaps I don't understand things fully here. We would have to

12 turn off the microphones. But you see that was the essence of our

13 objection. The travel issue, if you can go to some other places, I guess

14 I can say that I believe where he is, but that was my intention. But if

15 he sat at this desk, then we all know where it is; right?

16 Because if we rewind the transcript, we -- you can see that this

17 took place in another country, and my colleague is going to try to find

18 that place. Apparently that was in Bosnia. My colleague is just

19 notifying me that this is what is in the transcript.

20 JUDGE CLARK: I remember him saying that, but I think you're at

21 cross-purposes. It was when he made his statement to the OTP that it was

22 in Bosnia, but when he was talking to Mr. Stringer, it's where he is now.

23 I think that's what he's saying.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, this was my last

Page 6518

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Page 6519

1 question to you, and I thank you for your cooperation.

2 Thank you, Your Honours. I have concluded my cross-examination.

3 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Stringer?

4 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Stringer:

6 Q. Witness, just a couple of questions. You were asked about the

7 location of the command post or the headquarters in Sovici, and you said

8 that it was in the part of the village where -- you said that it was at

9 Mr. Begic's house; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you tell us what part of Sovici? I think you said previously

12 it was in Begici. Can you tell us what part of Sovici Begici where

13 Mr. Begic's house is located or was located?

14 A. Across from the Kamen feature. You cross a river, and it's right

15 there.

16 Q. Some of us have referred to different parts of Sovici as falling

17 within Gornja Mahala, Srednja Mahala, Donja Mahala?

18 A. Donja Mahala. Gornja, upper.

19 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the conditions of your detention

20 at the Ljubuski prison or at the Ljubuski location. Do you recall that?

21 A. I recall it.

22 Q. During the day, did you and others go to perform labour at

23 different locations outside of the Ljubuski camp?

24 A. Yes, we did.

25 Q. What were the conditions like?

Page 6520

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is outside the

3 scope of the cross-examination. I asked no questions about that.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, can you skip this question?

5 MR. STRINGER: Could I respectfully respond to the objection,

6 Mr. President?

7 JUDGE LIU: You may. You may.

8 MR. STRINGER: Counsel asked about the conditions within the

9 prison. Now, if the witness and others were taken outside frequently, I

10 think the treatment that they received when they were outside the camp

11 during the period of time that they were being held at Ljubuski falls

12 within the scope of the conditions of their detention, and I simply wanted

13 to ask about the conditions, what sorts of things happened to them during

14 the day when they were removed from the camp and taken to perform labour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,

17 after three months of evidence, I think that it is clear when --

18 regardless of whether we believe these witnesses or not, when they were

19 let outside of the camp, they were under somebody else's jurisdiction.

20 But I did not ask these questions. These are different circumstances, and

21 other people were in charge of them, and we are entering into a completely

22 different area that has nothing to do with the camp. They cannot be --

23 they cannot all fall under the same rubric.

24 And this is why I did not ask any questions about what went on

25 outside of the camp, because I did know where all he went, and then I

Page 6521

1 would have had to establish under whose command, whose control he was, and

2 I thought we had established all that after two or three months of

3 proceedings.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, the purpose of the re-examination is to

5 provide a chance to ask questions within the frame of the

6 cross-examination put forward by Defence counsel. If you want to make a

7 point, you have the opportunity to raise it in your direct examination.

8 The re-examination does not mean that we'll give you another chance for

9 your direct examination. So we advise you that you might skip this

10 question, Mr. Stringer.

11 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President. I'll skip the question,

12 and I have no further questions for the redirect.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Any questions from Judges?

15 JUDGE CLARK: I thought I had none, but arising out of a lot of

16 the recent questions.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Witness, you told us in your evidence that when

19 you were in Ljubuski, you were registered with the Red Cross.

20 A. That is correct.

21 JUDGE CLARK: When you went to the Heliodrom, were you

22 re-registered with the Red Cross, or were they aware of your transfer from

23 Ljubuski to the Heliodrom?

24 A. They were not aware, but they visited us again and registered us

25 again.

Page 6522

1 JUDGE CLARK: Can you tell me, were all the prisoners in the room

2 that you were in, the area that you were in, were they all registered with

3 the Red Cross in the Heliodrom?

4 A. Yes. In my room, everyone was registered.

5 JUDGE CLARK: In the other rooms -- if you don't know this, I

6 don't want you to speculate. But in the other rooms, do you know that all

7 of those people were also registered with the Red Cross?

8 A. I don't have accurate information.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for being honest. That's very helpful to

10 me. And thank you for answering the questions.

11 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

12 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Witness, I would like to ask you the following: When they

14 arrested you along with your fellow soldiers, they took you to a man for

15 whom you say that he was Tuta. They took you there, and there you saw

16 that this was a man who was the commander of this group of men. Was

17 anything said? In other words, did anybody address him? Could you

18 conclude from their conversation that this man, indeed, was Tuta?

19 A. When they took us prisoners, they said that they were taking us to

20 Tuta. And I observed that this man was in charge. He was in front of the

21 soldiers, so they couldn't have taken us to a common soldier. And I saw

22 that he was -- the main one, and it had to have been the man in charge who

23 said that those two were to be executed.

24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] At no point did anyone address him

25 by the name of "Tuta."

Page 6523

1 Would you be able to identify this man today? And if you are able

2 to, could you look around the courtroom and see whether he is in this

3 courtroom? And if he is in this courtroom, could you describe where he is

4 seated and what he is wearing?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] With all due respect, and I would not

8 like to be misunderstood by Her Honour Judge Diarra, I know that we have

9 no right to intervene, but this gentleman gave a description now; and

10 after all of that, I'm not sure that it would be quite fair that he be

11 identified because the Prosecution didn't ask it, we didn't ask it. I

12 just asked for a description. He said that he saw pictures in Sarajevo,

13 so can I request of the -- of Her Honour whether we could avoid this

14 because of the fairness of the trial.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Witness, taking into account

17 technical difficulties, we can give up an attempt on your part to make an

18 identification in the courtroom today. But can you say that the man who

19 was leading the men in the area where you were, can you say today that

20 nobody had addressed him, but you concluded on the basis of the fact that

21 he was in charge of these men that this was Tuta? Is that what you can

22 confirm for us today?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for your

25 cooperation and your honesty, and this is all I have to say.

Page 6524

1 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions? And before

2 that, Mr. Krsnik, I have to tell you that when a Judge is asking a

3 question, there should be no interruptions. And in this courtroom, we

4 don't put much weight on the dock identification, as you know. Yes. You

5 may have the floor.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, and I -- I

7 know about this rule, and I apologise to Her Honour, and this is the first

8 time. And I was -- I got on my feet with a lot of trepidation when I

9 asked this, and I really did not mean to intervene in any other way.

10 Of course, I have no questions. I would just like to confirm

11 that, indeed, line 36 on 9.16.18.16, it -- I quote: "When did you last

12 spoke to Mr. Stringer?" And he said: "Well, in Bosnia." This is in the

13 transcript. So that's 36 --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I don't think it's a significant

16 point, but I think that if counsel insists to make some issue about this -

17 which it is not clear to me what the issue is - but I think that we -- it

18 may be preferable just to try to clear this up. I don't know if --

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] It's not necessary, no. It is not

20 necessary. My learned friend, I'm just justifying my question. It is in

21 the transcript. This is why I asked where and when. And my apologies for

22 interrupting you. It was just done not to waste time. I just wanted to

23 avoid unnecessary discussion.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, it will be fair to give an opportunity for

25 Mr. Stringer to make any response on this issue, but we understand that

Page 6525

1 this issue is not centrally important to the interests of your client.

2 You may have the floor, Mr. Stringer.

3 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Further re-examination by Mr. Stringer:

5 Q. Witness just a couple of questions on this issue. You said that I

6 met with you. Can you tell us, without telling us the location -- you

7 said that I met with you at that desk where you're seated; is that

8 correct?

9 A. That is right.

10 Q. And that -- when did that meeting take place?

11 Did you hear my question? I asked you when did I meet with you at

12 that desk you're seated at.

13 A. On Friday.

14 Q. That would be last Friday, about four days ago? Or prior to

15 that?

16 A. Prior to that, no.

17 Q. Was it within the last couple of weeks?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, did I ever meet with you on any other occasion, in Bosnia?

20 A. No, no.

21 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: I guess there are no further questions out of Judges'

23 questions.

24 Witness, thank you very much for helping us by giving your

25 evidence. We all wish you good luck in your future. The usher will show

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Page 6527

1 you out of the room.

2 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

3 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender into

4 evidence.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we tender Exhibit 6.3, as it was

6 marked by the witness, which is a photograph; that would be 6.3/2. And

7 then also photograph 8.8, as it was marked by the witness, which is

8 8.8/1. And finally Exhibit, photograph 20.10, as marked, as 20.10/1.

9 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. These documents are admitted

12 into the evidence.

13 Any documents from the Defence side to tender at this stage?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

16 So we will adjourn today, and we will resume at 9.30 tomorrow

17 morning.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.31 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

20 November, 2001, at 9.30 a.m.

21

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25