1 Friday, 30 November 2001
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.31 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is Case Number
8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good
12 WITNESS: WITNESS SS [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning to you.
17 Q. Witness, if you remember, last time we broke when we were looking
18 at the photograph of Heliodrom. And I would like to round this off,
19 Heliodrom again.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And for the record, and possibly to
21 gain a complete picture, let us go back to this Exhibit 20.8.
22 Q. And now, all I want to ask you: If you would be so kind as to
23 make a circle and also describe verbally what you told us already last
24 time, who was in which building. For instance, put "HV," and then put a
25 letter "A," and put the HVO Brigade with a "B," and a "C" if there was a
1 third party there.
2 A. Yes, I said that in these three buildings, this one, this one, and
3 this one. And the three units were quartered there, two units of the
4 Croatian army, parts of the 1st and 2nd Guards Brigades, and one HVO unit
5 from Konjic.
6 Q. And which building and which -- and the 1st and 2nd Brigade?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Will you please put the 1st Brigade -- let's use letter "A." This
9 is all in the record, Witness. Put "B" where the 2nd Brigade was, you
10 say, the 2nd Guard Brigade with letter "B." And "C," let's make it the
12 A. "B" is the 2nd Guard Brigade, and "C" is the HVO unit from
14 Q. Very good. Now, when you say "parts," what were these called,
15 companies of these brigades? What were they? How many men could it be?
16 A. Well, it is hard for me to say, because I could not see them line
17 up to establish the exact count and their exact strength. But I -- my
18 guess is that in the area of Mostar --
19 Q. Excuse me. Just a moment. I'm asking you about Heliodrom. I
20 assume that you cannot know what the situation in Mostar is, since you
21 were at the Heliodrom, and that is why I am asking you about Heliodrom.
22 How many men from these guards brigades could there be?
23 A. I guess between 150 to 200 soldiers, because I used to see, say,
24 groups of 30 and more in one place.
25 Q. Now, tell us: With all the insignia of the Croatian army, or
1 without them, when you said that you guessed?
2 A. Right. They had Croatian army insignia on their clothes, and the
3 vehicles they used had the markings of the Croat Defence Council. They
4 had removed their plates from these vehicles and put on the plates of the
5 Croat Defence Council.
6 Q. Just a moment, sir. I'm sorry I'm interrupting you, but I would
7 like this cross-examination to make faster, more specific. Did you see
8 them remove the plates and put on new plates? And just take it easy,
9 please. Let us not overlap. What we want to know is what you
11 If you heard something, please tell us, "I heard this and that."
12 If you saw something, then tell us again, sir, because after all, we are
13 before an august Chamber, so we need to know that. So you did not see
14 them change the plates, did you? It is your assumption, or did you hear
15 about that?
16 A. Well, you're not allowing me to finish my sentence. I know where
17 I am as well as you do. I didn't see them change the plates, but I know
18 very precisely that those men came from a unit of the Croatian army and
19 they were driving vehicles marked with the markings of the Croat Defence
20 Council. On the doors, they had -- they had stuck the marks of the Croat
21 Defence Council. And I was driven in such a vehicle itself, and I know
22 that those units belong to the Croatian army.
23 Q. I will allow you to finish every sentence that you want. I want
24 merely to agree with you very nicely. And you did not tell me whether you
25 saw it personally, or did you hear about it, or is it that you assumed
1 that. Because when you see the plates, they are just the HVO plates,
2 isn't it, Witness?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I was asking you a very simple question. You don't have to get
5 angry with me.
6 A. I am not angry with you at all.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I just want to remind you, speak very slowly and
8 make a pause between questions and answers. The interpreters are really
9 having a very difficult time to follow you.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours. I will
11 bear it in mind. But, you know, it is very hard indeed, because I
12 interrupt the witness and then I am told why don't I let him go on? And
13 if the witness gets diverted then -- and I wanted to cut this
14 cross-examination short. And in that case, overlappings are inevitable,
15 because we speak the same language. So if you do not get the
16 interpretation the very moment when we have said something, I'm very
17 sorry. But I will bear this in mind. Yes, of course.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe this statement you made
19 just now is fast enough.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, did this, as you say, HV, have any tanks? Its tanks, I
23 A. I cannot confirm that. I didn't see them.
24 Q. Did they have any artillery? I mean heavy guns, howitzers, and
25 things like that.
1 A. If mortars are 120 millimetres or 82 millimetres, which I see, if
2 they are heavy artillery, then, yes, they did have them.
3 Q. And other heavy pieces?
4 A. I did not see them.
5 Q. And how many trucks did they have, if you can tell us that?
6 A. Once again, I did not count them. But between these buildings and
7 in front of these buildings which I marked, their vehicles were parked
8 there. Those were vehicles used by the Yugoslav People's Army, and we
9 called them -- and I served in that army myself. We called them 110s --
10 or rather, I think -- I think that the proper name was T-110. And they
11 mostly served for lighter artillery pieces in the former army, and those
12 vehicles were the ones that they used most often.
13 Q. So these vehicles were at the Heliodrom? They did not arrive in
15 A. I saw them in front of the building in which these units were
16 quartered. I saw them use them. And I said that I was also driven in one
17 of such vehicles.
18 Q. Yes. I understand, Witness. You don't think that I'm not
19 following what you are saying. I am asking you: Do you know if they
20 arrived in those cars and were those vehicles belonging to the former army
21 were at the Heliodrom, why do you claim that those were their vehicles? I
22 mean, if you know it, you know it. If you don't, you don't. You don't
23 have to answer every one of my questions. If you don't, just tell me.
24 A. Yes. But you are changing the subject. I'm not the one who was
25 supervising the buildings or the Heliodrom. I was a prisoner there.
1 Q. That is why I'm asking you.
2 A. And at some point, I learned that there was the Croatian army
3 there. At some point, they took me over there to clean their premises,
4 and I see cars which they use, and they tell me they are professional
5 Croatian troops and so on and so forth.
6 Q. Witness, excuse me. I have to interrupt you. And I am sorry I
7 have to do that, but my question is -- I'm asking you one thing, and you
8 immediately move on to different tracks and give me a different answer.
9 My simple question was: Do you know whose trucks these are? And nothing
11 JUDGE CLARK: I do not believe that's so. You were asking him
12 very detailed questions, and he was explaining that he was a prisoner, not
13 a supervisor, but that he was telling you what he saw, and then you
14 interrupted him. So you have to be a little bit more fair.
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Honour. Maybe there
16 is a misunderstanding, because when I hear a claim and I ask about these
17 trucks, they are the HVO, and then when I ask the witness, he proceeds
18 with his own story. And my simple question is: Does he know, has he
19 heard, or is he making assumptions as to who these trucks belong to? If
20 he doesn't know it, he doesn't know it. He doesn't have to know
21 everything. But never mind. Let's move on.
22 Q. Witness, let us move away from Heliodrom and go to another topic.
23 Tell me, who was the first one who took you to Rastani and why? Which
24 date was it, which month? I see that you remember dates very well.
25 A. Yes. The first time I was taken to Rastani, on a Sunday, the 5th
1 of September. And I stayed there seven days until the next Sunday, the
2 12th of September.
3 Q. But my chief question was: Who took you there, which unit?
4 A. I think it was some men who came from the 2nd Battalion. They
5 took us to a place called Rudnik, that is, the northern part of Mostar.
6 And from there, we walked to the village of Rastani.
7 Q. The 2nd Battalion of what?
8 A. I don't know which brigade it was, but the 2nd HVO Battalion.
9 Those were mostly people from Rudnik, I think. Even the headquarters was
10 in the part of Mostar called Rudnik.
11 Q. And in whose hands was Rastani at that time?
12 A. The HVO's hands.
13 Q. When did the BH army take Rastani for the first time? What month?
14 A. I really don't know. All I know is that Rastani was -- changed
15 hands several times. But when it happened the first time, I wouldn't
17 Q. I see. So that was the 5th of September. You go back. And is it
18 then that the BH army attacks and takes Rastani over following that 5th of
19 September? Perhaps you know the date or something.
20 A. I think that the BH army entered Rastani on the 19th of September,
21 on Sunday, I think.
22 Q. And why is -- why do you still have this 19th of September,
23 precisely the 19th, in your memory? Why did it stuck in your memory?
24 A. Well, it did because I was in the camp that day for the -- for
25 another two or three days. And all men incarcerated at the Heliodrom were
1 denied food and all the rest. That is what the guards formally allowed
2 them to do, to avail them of any facilities. And the explanation was that
3 Rastani had fallen.
4 Q. Somebody explained it to you that that was why?
5 A. No, nobody explained it to us.
6 Q. Well, if nobody explained it to you, then how do you know that it
7 was the 19th if you were in the camp?
8 A. Because on the 20th, I was taken to prepare the action for the
9 recapture of Rastani so that I was in contact with people there.
10 Q. So you learned about that?
11 A. Yes, of course.
12 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, who is it that you learned about it
13 from? Who told you about all this?
14 A. Well, it is difficult for me to remember now who it was that told
15 me that, because I didn't even know the names of those people. But on the
16 21st, in the afternoon - and that was Tuesday - when I was taken to the
17 village of Djubrani - and I explained it already in my statement - that
18 whole day, that is, Wednesday, the 22nd of September, I spent that whole
19 day with several soldiers fortifying the positions. I mean, I spent the
20 whole day with them and so on.
21 Q. And now tell me, what battalion did they come from? Do you know
23 A. What battalion they came from? I think I cannot really affirm
24 that with any certainty, but I think that those men with whom we worked up
25 there, around those positions on the 22nd, I think those were artillery
2 Q. And they were under whom?
3 A. I really don't know.
4 Q. Tell me, please -- I am just being warned - my colleague is - that
5 the record doesn't reflect my question and your answer. Do you remember
6 my question? Did you learn at the Heliodrom about the fall of Rastani?
7 Do you remember your answer?
8 A. The 19th to the 20th. No, I didn't.
9 Q. The following question is frequently asked here: Did you learn
10 later on which units it involved? What was that action of the BH army
11 which took Rastani on the 21st? What units were engaged in that, and what
12 kind of operation was it? What was it's scale?
13 A. I really do not know. I did not learn that. But between the 5th
14 and the 12th of September, while I was in Rastani, they were also --
15 Q. I'm not asking you that, Witness. My question was very simple,
16 and that was whether you learned it. You say "I didn't," then we'll move
18 A. I didn't.
19 Q. That's it. And did you learn later on or at that time, talking to
20 soldiers when you were with them -- because I see that you have -- that
21 you communicate very broadly. Was it a large-scale operation involving
22 Zuka's unit, Black Swans, that there was a major pogrom, major
23 destruction, sabotage units were infiltrated behind the back of the HVO in
24 Mostar suburbs, and so on and so forth? Did you learn about that
25 afterwards, or perhaps then, from those soldiers?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Very well. Now, tell me: On the 21st of September, who takes
3 you, you said, to the -- to a place called Djubrani? Who takes you there,
4 to whom he takes you, why does he take you there?
5 A. Sir, I was taken from the camp every day.
6 Q. Fine, fine. But I'm asking about the 21st.
7 A. But do you think that I had a possibility or any right to ask them
8 "Where are you taking me and why"?
9 Q. Absolutely. I don't think you could --
10 A. Then how can you think that I could find out that night where they
11 were taking me? Had I known who was taking me -- if I knew who had taken
12 me, I would have told you. But those men who took me treated us
13 correctly; I mean the ten of us who were taken that day. But who they
14 were, I really don't know.
15 Q. Just a moment, Witness. I'm not trying to upset you. I do not
16 place you in discomfiture in any way whatsoever. I'm asking you because
17 you so far told us, "I went to this and this battalion. I worked with
18 this and that." So far you have always told us with whom you worked and
19 for whom you worked. This is the first time you are telling us you don't
20 know. And it is all right with me. I mean, you just don't know. But be
21 that as it may, somebody came to the Heliodrom to fetch you and took you
22 away, and the military police recorded that; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when you were brought back on the 23rd, the military police
25 again recorded that, who brought you there and how?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then you cannot tell me who it was that you worked there for
3 or why? I mean on the 21st, 22nd.
4 A. I said that we were fortifying.
5 Q. But you do not know for whom?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you, fine. That's okay.
8 Tell me, please, apart from that gun which you told us you had to
9 charge, did you see any artillery at that place with your own eyes, or did
10 you only hear it?
11 A. At that place where I charged that gun?
12 Q. I mean artillery generally.
13 A. I don't understand the question.
14 Q. Artillery, according to you, of the HVO, which fired at Rastani.
15 According to you, did you see it with your own eyes? I know that one gun
16 which you charged, of course you saw that.
17 A. I said that this day the artillery was active all day, heavy
18 artillery pieces beyond the hill.
19 Q. Did you see them?
20 A. I didn't. I couldn't see them.
21 Q. Thank you. Witness, there is no need to create some tension
22 between the two of us. I'm asking you nicely, and you can answer me
23 briefly and nicely.
24 A. It's you who thinks I'm creating tension.
25 Q. No. I'm not trying to engage in any discussion with you. I'm
1 merely trying to avoid situations which can produce some discussions, so
2 I'm asking you nicely. And I can see that you are an intelligent and
3 learned man, so you can give me short answers.
4 Tell me, please, did you -- the gentleman that you called Tuta,
5 did you see him anywhere except at Djubrani?
6 A. Not in person.
7 Q. Right. Now, tell me, please, this emblem which was on the sleeve,
8 you told us, on the left sleeve, this emblem of the Convicts Battalion --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Let me ask you first: You remember the statement that you gave to
11 the investigators of the Tribunal, do you?
12 A. I do, yes.
13 Q. And you remember that you described at great length and in every
14 detail that emblem and then drew also a picture of it to substantiate your
15 description. Tell us, how many statements have you given to this day?
16 A. One.
17 Q. To The Hague investigators?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you give any to the AID, to the military, to the security
21 A. No.
22 Q. I see. And how did The Hague investigators find you?
23 A. I wondered about that myself.
24 Q. Oh, you wondered about that yourself. And on the basis of this
25 emblem, you recognised, and to this day you claim, that those who wore
1 those emblems on the sleeve were members of the Convicts Battalion?
2 A. You want me to answer your questions with only yes or no?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. But we shall not be able to arrive at the truth, and you said that
5 that was the -- our purpose, and I think that is our purpose. It does not
6 say anywhere that this was the emblem by which I recognised that unit.
7 Q. No. I will now stop you. Take your statement -- oh, you don't
8 have the statement in front of you. Well, I'll give you a copy.
9 A. May I just say one sentence, please? It does not say anywhere
10 here that it was that emblem on the basis of which I identified that
11 unit. I identified the unit, I recognised that unit on the basis of the
12 following: In the evening of the 22nd --
13 Q. Well, we'll come to that later. I first want to clear up these
14 things about the emblem. Everything is all right. No problem?
15 A. Yes, of course.
16 Q. Do finish, because the Chamber thinks that you should finish your
18 A. On the evening of the 22nd, a group of soldiers told me that
19 Tuta's men had arrived. I saw them in the afternoon, but I did not know
20 who they -- what they were. The next day, around 12.00, I saw Tuta lead a
21 group of men personally. In the afternoon, I saw a soldier ask his
22 commander to tell Tuta that he is sick and that he can not participate in
23 combat. All this proves that it was that unit.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise, but I
25 cannot conduct my cross-examination in this manner. Your Honour, Judge
1 Clark, whatever you wish. I'm trying to clarify. I ask one thing, and
2 the witness always answers something else, what he wants to say, not what
3 I'm asking him about, although I don't object to that.
4 JUDGE CLARK: You see, Mr. Krsnik, you have a statement. The
5 witness has a statement. And you're jumping from his previous testimony
6 the other day to what he said in the statement. We don't have a
7 statement. And I'm a little lost at what's going on, but I think that the
8 witness is trying to clarify something, and you're too far ahead of him.
9 Maybe if you both slow down a little bit. You both have -- whatever part
10 of the country you come from, you both speak extremely fast.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, you have heard what the Trial Chamber has said, and
13 please, answer my questions. Let me explain to you. It is my right to
14 put questions to you and to ask you to answer with yes or no. It is a
15 right I have according to the Statute of this Tribunal.
16 A. Very well.
17 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, there are many questions to which the
18 answer yes or no is neither accurate nor fair. And I think, you know some
19 answers are yes or no and some answers require elucidation.
20 So Witness, you can answer both ways, and we will tell you how you
21 are to do it, not Mr. Krsnik.
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. I only
23 wanted to bring this part of the examination to a close and to arrive at
24 an explanation, because the witness wasn't answering my questions as I
25 asked them.
1 Q. You gave a statement to the investigators of this Tribunal in
2 1998, and on page 9 --
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher --
4 Q. Let me ask you right away: Why have you never said until today,
5 either in your statement or to the question put to you by the Prosecution,
6 that it was from others you heard that Tuta's army was coming, Tuta's
7 soldiers were coming? Because that is not to be found anywhere in your
9 Look at the last two pages -- last two sentences on page 8: "The
10 attack" -- that's page 8, the last two sentences. "The attack was
11 conducted by a unit called the Convicts Battalion." You claim that's
12 Tuta's unit. "I saw the insignia. I saw Tuta himself. I made a drawing
13 of the insignia of that unit. The insignia was on the left sleeve. The
14 background of the insignia was black. The lightning was yellow. And the
15 letters Kaznjenicka Bojna were, I think, in white." And Kaznjenicka Bojna
16 is in quotation marks. "On the right sleeve, the soldiers had the normal
17 HVO insignia."
18 You see, in your statement, you say that it was the Convicts
19 Battalion that launched the attack and that you recognised them. And
20 there is no other explanation here in your statement, and not until today
21 have you given any other explanation except that you recognised them by
22 their insignia.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is that correct? Is this what you stated?
25 A. Yes, I remember this statement well, and that's what I stated at
1 the time.
2 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, when and at what point did an
3 ambulance arrive, as you described yesterday when answering my learned
4 friend's questions?
5 A. What ambulance are you referring to? Because ambulances arrived
6 on two occasions. Was it the ambulance I was taken away in?
7 Q. Yes, I didn't understand that there were two incidents involving
8 an ambulance, I have to say.
9 A. One ambulance arrived early on and took away a group of eight
11 Q. An ambulance?
12 A. Yes. And on the second occasion, an ambulance came to get me and
13 my colleague. That was at around 10.00 or just after 10.00.
14 Q. I'm asking you this because, as you said, a shell landed at that
15 time, which wounded the doctor, and this is not mentioned in your
17 A. No, no, no. That was on the 22nd. That was on the 22nd of
19 Q. Well, please listen carefully to my questions. I asked you when
20 and where. If it was on the 22nd, well, then it was on the 22nd. So I
21 want to know when the shell landed and which doctor it wounded.
22 A. I apologise. I thought you were asking me about the ambulance
23 that took me to Rastani. But --
24 Q. Well, you see, this is something I'm hearing for the third time
25 now, that you were taken to Rastani, but it doesn't say so in your
1 statement. It says you were taken to a village 2 and-a-half or
2 3 kilometres away.
3 A. Well, that's in the direction of Rastani, going from Djubrani
4 towards Rastani.
5 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, I think he gave this evidence the other
6 day, because I recall the story about the argument between two ambulance
7 drivers as to who would go down. One was faster; one was slower. And
8 then they had the wounded soldier.
9 I think it's better if you concentrate on what he said in his oral
10 testimony than rather, because we're getting confused. You're jumping.
11 If I'm getting confused up here where there's no tension, it must be very,
12 very difficult for the witness. I recall evidence about two ambulances
13 and an exchange of a wounded soldier, and then his going in the other
14 ambulance, the slower ambulance.
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Well, let's clarify this, then. In your statement which you made
17 to the investigators of this Tribunal, you do not mention anywhere the
18 incident of a shell landing and wounding a doctor. This is something you
19 mentioned for the first time before this Tribunal.
20 A. Well, these are details. Things like that happened every minute.
21 Q. Very well. When this shell landed, who were the soldiers
22 guarding? Who was in charge of you throughout those two or three days?
23 A. I think there was a soldier who I think was called Zdenko. And
24 there was another soldier whose name was, I think, Mirko, and he was a
25 building construction engineer. He had worked in Herzegovina up to the
1 war. He guarded us in Djubrani and on that day, that is, the 22nd.
2 Q. Who did they belong to?
3 A. I really wouldn't know.
4 Q. You said that you were taken 2 and-a-half kilometres from Djubrani
5 in the direction of Rastani in an ambulance?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. A soldier came -- well, first you came to the village, and then a
8 soldier came who took you to bunker, if I remember well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who did that soldier belong to?
11 A. To Tuta's unit. He came from the group, which was in that cluster
12 of houses where Tuta took a group of soldiers.
13 Q. Do you know that for certain, or are you simply assuming this?
14 Please tell us honestly.
15 A. I cannot assert that with certainty. But on that day, the
16 infantry operation, and at these positions from which shots were fired, it
17 was only Tuta's unit that took part.
18 Q. You mean from that direction, or in general?
19 A. From that axis, the bunker, the bend, the road, which I sketched
20 yesterday, there were about 15 artillery pieces from which they were
21 firing at the village.
22 Q. Let us clarify first. Was it only Tuta's unit who took Rastani,
23 or were there other units as well?
24 A. I didn't see any other units.
25 Q. How many soldiers were there, then, who were able to take or
1 restore Rastani on their own? Rastani had been fortified, if I understand
3 A. Rastani was not fortified at all.
4 Q. Very well. Let's look at the picture, and then we'll use that.
5 A. Well, yesterday, I think I said as far as I was able to see that
6 day, an infantry attacked Rastani and there were about five groups of
7 about ten soldiers each, so all in all about 50 soldiers.
8 Q. So these 50 men took Rastani?
9 A. Yes. I will explain that later.
10 Q. How do you know that Rastani was not fortified?
11 A. Because I passed through that village.
12 Q. Through the whole village?
13 A. Through -- from Dumporove Kuce to Elektroprenos, and then some 30
14 or 50 metres to the right, and then I went back for about 100 metres to
15 the left, and nowhere did I see a single fortification or a single
16 bunker. The soldiers who were there were in the first houses, but there
17 were no fortifications or bunkers.
18 Q. Very well, Witness. I will now show you a picture, and then we
19 shall talk on the basis of that.
20 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, can I ask you something? You're going
21 into very fine detail about the capture, or the fall, or the recapture, of
22 Rastani. What exactly is the point you're trying to make? Are you trying
23 to say that this witness was not there or that your client's unit was not
24 there? Or what point are you trying to make? Why are we going into all
25 this detail and you're not actually putting to this witness what your
1 client's case is, as you're bound to do?
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with all due respect, I
3 have learned a lot listening to you here, and I think that this has
4 enriched my experience as a lawyer, but I see no reason why I should tell
5 this witness about my cross-examination. I admit that this is the first
6 time I am conducting cross-examination before this Tribunal. I have
7 worked in America where cross-examination looks quite different.
8 My task here, as counsel, Your Honour -- I have analysed this, and
9 this is not the first witness from Rastani, and last night we analysed the
10 statements of other witnesses. So please allow me to check this witness's
11 testimony. And whether he is being honest or not is for you to determine,
12 but we shall later compare the statements of witnesses. Because how would
13 it be possible for several people to say quite different things about the
14 same event? I hope my learned friends will not object to this. But I
15 wish to check this. He says it was only the Convicts Battalion. I wish
16 to check that now.
17 JUDGE CLARK: Normally in cross-examination - I think you know
18 this, Mr. Krsnik - is that certainly you're entitled to check the
19 credibility of the witness, but the next thing that you have to go on to
20 say is that, "Mr. SS, you cannot be correct in this because my client will
21 say, or my witnesses will say, or somebody will say that on that
22 particular day, the Convicts Battalion was actually in action somewhere
23 else 20 kilometres away." That's the sort of thing you've got to put.
24 You're probing, probing, probing, but we are getting nowhere.
25 We are wondering - you're going into such detail about the attack
1 of Rastani - are we coming to a point? And then we just move on to
2 something else. So cross-examination has to elicit something that's
3 valuable to us as well, obviously, as to your client.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] My client claims he -- or rather, the
5 Convicts Battalion was 15 kilometres away from that spot.
6 JUDGE CLARK: Well, you see, Mr. Krsnik, that's really valuable.
7 You must put it to this person, because we certainly are being kept in the
8 dark about it. We are wondering why are you asking this witness such
9 detailed questions without actually saying to him, "We don't believe you
10 because X, Y and Z."
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The men who wore this patch perhaps
12 were in Rastani, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, I will now show you a picture and ask you to tell us
14 whether you see the houses in question on this picture, 34.3.
15 Witness, look at this picture, please. Where are the houses
16 called Dumporove Kuce, and where were the two prisoners that you found,
17 you know, when two groups came across each other with a group of soldiers
18 from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
19 A. Yes. Dumporove Kuce are not visible on this picture at all. I
20 assume it was taken from the air. This is a photograph taken looking in
21 the direction of Rastani from the side controlled by the HVO. That's the
22 way this picture was made. And Dumporove Kuce would be located somewhere
23 around here, in this corner, in the very corner here. But they are not
24 visible in the photograph.
25 And there is a street leading from Dumporove Kuce here, and we
1 took that road to here, which I think is Elektroprenos, and this is the
2 part going in the direction of Mostar, where this grain elevator is, and
3 this photograph was taken from the other side, compared to the map that we
4 looked at yesterday.
5 Q. Very well. Tell us, where they brought the two prisoners, is that
6 place visible on this photograph?
7 A. No. It's not visible either. I said yesterday in my statement
8 that we came as far as Elektroprenos, turned a little to the right, 20 or
9 30 metres, then the commander of our group was given information that
10 there were two prisoners, and then we retraced our steps and went to a
11 place which is not visible on this photograph. It was about 100 or 200
12 metres away.
13 Q. So you can't see it on this photograph?
14 A. No, you can't.
15 Q. Would you please look at page 11 of your statement. Start from
16 the top where you say: "We arrived at the railway tracks."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. "And we stopped in a house to take a rest."
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "Both groups of soldiers contacted Kolobara to tell him that they
21 had taken prisoner two members of the army."
22 Then I will skip to the sentence when he heard that the two men
23 had been taken prisoner.
24 Have you found that?
25 A. Yes, yes, yes.
1 Q. Kolobara said, "We're not going to the Neretva. We're going left
2 so we can meet up with this group. When we met up with the other group, I
3 think their leader's name was Zdenko ..."
4 And my first question to you: Is that the same Zdenko who was
5 guarding you?
6 A. No, no.
7 Q. Very well. "And two members of the army were lying down on the
8 ground." Would you please show me the railway tracks on this photograph.
9 A. I can't see it here. I cannot say on this photograph where it is,
10 but I know for certain that that day and that evening, the groups of
11 Tuta's unit only went as far as the railway tracks, only as far as the
12 railway tracks, and not a single soldier crossed them. I think that the
13 railway tracks are somewhere close by. And this is the main road on the
14 other side of the Neretva.
15 Q. When you say "Tuta's units," are you referring to the units of
16 five or ten men?
17 A. I meant the unit.
18 Q. Well, say that, then, please, because everything has to be
19 translated here.
20 Witness, I have consulted my colleagues, and I, of course, have
21 visited Rastani on several occasions. Is this not the railway track
22 behind the grain elevator? You see there are some pylons there for the
23 locomotive. Well, I'll give you another photograph where you can see it
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for
1 Exhibit 34.4.
2 MR. BOS: Can I just ask what the point of all this? Because I am
3 really getting lost of what the point is, whether the railroad --
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'll explain. I'll explain it in no
5 time at all.
6 Your Honours, let me explain a bit to the Prosecutor and to the
7 witness. I'm asking these questions because the witness, who was one of
8 those arrested, and he made his statement and made the positions and said
9 that it all happened, and so I'm trying to ask questions about the place
10 where he was found.
11 Do we need anything else, my learned friend or -- or rather, I
12 have a suggestion, Your Honours. From tomorrow on, we were talking about
13 this, to prepare a summary of our cross-examination and give the
14 Prosecutor a day in advance, what we're going to ask and who it refers to
15 and all that. Perhaps that might cut our time shorter.
16 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, nobody is asking you to do that, but
17 usually cross-examination is based on what the witness said in court, and
18 possibly, if it varies terribly from his statement, you can put the
19 statement. But you seem to concentrate on what he said previously, rather
20 than what he says in court. And we don't know what he said in the
21 statement previously, and we're wondering why you spend so much time on
22 the statement and not on his oral evidence.
23 But is it suggested to this witness -- just to put my mind at
24 ease, is it suggested to this witness that he wasn't there at all or
25 that -- you know, why does it make any difference where the railway is if
1 you say your client wasn't there at all?
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps this witness did
3 not see it being poured. Perhaps it's just hearsay. If the one on whom
4 it was poured on, then he indicated the location exactly before this
5 Court, and it is not the same location which the witness is pointing at
6 this place. I mean, they are not the same. So everybody was in the
8 And let us now go back into detail about some other things. But
9 we hear different stories, but it's all hearsay.
10 Q. Can you see the railway track on this photograph?
11 A. Let me tell you, sir, these photographs are inversed. This
12 photograph was taken more or less from the side controlled by the army of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, more or less from Zelig [phoen]. So when you look at
14 it, it has nothing to do with this photograph.
15 Q. My question is: Can you see the railroad?
16 A. Well, you see where the railroad is. You see where it is. So it
17 is quite true that we reached the Elektroprenos, as I said. And in the
18 immediate vicinity, you can see how many metres it is. At that time, I
19 could not measure it, whether it's 20 or 50 metres, but the railroad is in
20 the immediate vicinity of the Elektroprenos, that is, electrical
21 transmitter line.
22 Q. I have a photograph that shows the exact distance between the
23 Elektroprenos and the railroad.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] So can we have Exhibit 20.7.
25 Q. Witness, you can see this photograph?
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. And now you see the power transmission, and you see the railroad?
3 A. Perfect.
4 Q. Now, in your statement you say, "We reached the railroad." Now,
5 of course, I'm not going to speculate how far it is from the power
6 transmission, but it's not far.
7 A. We had come to one of these houses, one of these houses, and so
8 all this is clear, this road, and so on and so forth, and we did not go
9 further than the railroad that day, and we stopped in one of these houses
11 Q. Very well. Now --
12 JUDGE CLARK: Can I ask another question for clarification? Are
13 these houses in this photograph now the Dumpor's houses? I think that's
14 what my note says, "Dumpor houses."
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no.
16 Q. How far are these houses from Dumpor's houses?
17 A. I don't know. You can take a map and measure it. One can measure
18 it exactly on the map. At that time, I covered it on foot in a human
19 shield, mixed --
20 Q. No, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. We'll come to that.
21 That's another matter. So I see you always have excellent information at
22 your disposal. Now, tell me, in your view, how far is it from Dumpor's
23 houses, a kilometre, half a kilometre, 2 kilometres, 100 metres? You can
24 tell us approximately.
25 A. A few hundred metres, I'd say.
1 Q. Very well. Now tell me, please, will you describe to the Court
2 how is it that you walked, that is, you moved towards those houses.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, tell us how is it that you walked, you and the soldiers?
5 That is, where did you come from? And will you please use the pointer.
6 A. We came -- I think we came from the -- we came down this road - or
7 perhaps there is another road beyond this power transmission
8 installation - and then turned right, because in Rastani, I was only on
9 those occasions, so I cannot really say it with certainty.
10 Q. Yesterday, you said that you knew Rastani very well.
11 A. Well, I do, but I can't know it to a house, as you want me to.
12 Q. Sir, how did you walk, you and the soldiers, towards these
13 houses? And did they let you know from the hill where the BH army was or
14 didn't they?
15 A. Your Honours, if I may, only two minutes to explain what a human
16 shield is.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may, Witness.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For the first time in my life, I
20 heard the term "human shield" in the summer of 1993. At that time --
21 until that time, I still didn't know what it meant. In the camp, I was
22 told that on the Bulevar and on Santic Street, human shields were being
23 used. And when I asked what is that, they told me, "Captured men are used
24 in combat by putting them in front of the soldiers." And indeed, that was
25 the practice. That was a widespread phenomenon in all the combat actions
1 planned and carried out by the HVO, and in particular, this unit, the
2 military police unit on Santic Street.
3 To have a human shield, the following is needed: Number 1, you
4 must have people deprived of all their rights. That is, you must have
5 slaves. Because a man who has even the slightest right cannot be sent
6 there. So such a man, deprived of all his rights, you use in combat. He
7 participates directly in combat, and he becomes a live target, an
8 undefended, live target that very moment. He may not take cover, take
9 shelter, try to save himself, and he has nothing to defend himself with.
10 I really did not believe -- could not believe that there existed such
11 phantom minds which could allow themselves to do that in a war with a
12 human beings at the end of the 20th Century. And that was a widespread
13 phenomenon, a common phenomenon. I myself participated in such a human
14 shield for days on end. And the counsel asks me about my testimony, if it
15 is hearsay.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness SS, I have the right to ask you about things that you were
18 present at, before the Court, as I asked you in the beginning, and very
19 kindly, to tell us about your experience and about what you heard or what
20 you guessed at, that you should indicate it. Now, this was a military
21 theoretical explanation of the human shield that you studied, is it?
22 A. No, I did not study it. I was prepared, you know.
23 Q. Excuse me, what it looked like in Rastani, because you said that
24 you were part of the human shield?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. Well, now, you told the Court what it looked like at Rastani, to
2 be a human shield there.
3 A. Well, it was -- it looked -- it was as follows: When I arrived in
4 Rastani, at Dumpor's houses, I found there a group of four captured men --
5 Q. Witness -- Your Honours --
6 A. I'll tell you.
7 Q. No, no, no. It's all the time like this. I ask you one thing,
8 and then you turn the answer the way that you wish. And that is how you
9 gave us now the expert opinion, because the notion of the shield is to get
10 a sword in the shield, rather than your body. So I showed you this
11 photograph, and my specific question was because yesterday you told when
12 asked by the Prosecutor that they were mixed with soldiers. That is what
13 you told us yesterday.
14 A. I did.
15 Q. And I'm asking you to show us on the photograph how is it that you
16 moved toward those houses? So that is my question: How is it that you
17 were walking towards those houses which we see in this picture here?
18 A. Yes. We were moving towards those houses together with soldiers
19 who were in this group, who were eight or nine.
20 Q. Together, or mixed with them?
21 A. I was the first one. I was in front of them.
22 Q. Were you in a single file?
23 A. No. I was the first one. We walked down the street, and then --
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.
25 MR. BOS: I just need a point of clarification here because
1 counsel is now referring to Dumpor house, and he is saying those are the
2 houses which are depicted on this photograph. But that's not the case.
3 These houses I don't think are Dumpor's houses. I really want a
4 clarification on this.
5 JUDGE LIU: I think Judge Clark asked the same question concerning
6 those houses.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry. If we're
8 talking at cross-purposes, then obviously it is my fault. It is all my
9 responsibility. Because I have it in my head, and yet I am unable to tell
10 you about it. The witness is telling us how they reached those houses,
11 how they walked. And it doesn't really matter whether these are Dumpor's
12 houses or some other houses. He is telling us about the human shield, my
13 learned friend. I'm asking him how is it that he was moving towards those
14 house. Very simple. And I don't understand what is the problem.
15 MR. BOS: You are confusing matters because you are saying
16 actually the houses which are reflected in the --
17 JUDGE LIU: Speak to the Judges.
18 MR. BOS: Your Honours, I think my learned colleague is confusing
19 the matters because he is referring to the houses on the photograph. That
20 is his exact words, reading from the transcript. He says, "The Dumpor's
21 houses, as reflected in the photograph on the ELMO." And that's not the
22 case. It really confuses.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, it's for the benefit of this Chamber
24 for you to make it clear.
25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Her Honour Judge Clark asked me if
1 those were Dumpor's houses, and we said that no, they were not and that
2 they were a few hundred metres away from here. The witness explained
3 that, and I did that, too.
4 MR. BOS: Then why is counsel then saying --
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bos.
6 It doesn't harm anybody if you ask the question again and help us
7 to clear up this matter.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik --
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE CLARK: -- bear in mind that this witness, without a doubt,
11 was a prisoner for a while and that he must have been through some fairly
12 harrowing experiences. Perhaps you don't accept the full extent of them,
13 but he is still due respect as a witness who has been a victim. So maybe
14 the tone can be a little more gentle, and then the responses will be less
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. I
17 always bear that in mind. I've realised of late what is the problem. The
18 problem is the difference of the language, and that we have to wait for
19 the interpretation. Not only this witness or some other, I realise
20 immediately when the witness is dodging the answer, and then I have to ask
21 him again. And then the confusion arises, and then perhaps somebody
22 thinks that I'm not being polite. But these are all reactions, and it
23 never crossed my mind not to be polite.
24 Q. So, Witness, my question is: Are these Dumpor's houses?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you please use the pointer to show us where the Dumpor's
2 houses are and how far, roughly, are they from this place. Perhaps we
3 could change it; perhaps we could take the big photograph.
4 Now, show us where these houses are and where Dumpor's houses are,
5 and please do it with the pointer.
6 A. It is these houses which we saw a minute ago. And Dumpor's houses
7 are roughly somewhere here, next to the -- these woods here, somewhere in
8 this corner down here. So we took the road. Sometimes we would get away,
9 move through the woods, and reached this power transmission installation.
10 Then we proceeded here to the right to approximately fetching up somewhere
11 near these houses.
12 Q. Very well. So what we see on the edge of the photograph is a
13 hill, or do you want me to give you another photograph? That's the hill
14 above Rastani, isn't it?
15 A. Which one?
16 Q. Well, the end of the photograph. You see, from where the
17 photograph was taken. Where the number is, you see this number down here
18 on the photograph?
19 A. I do, yes.
20 Q. So this is a hill from which these shots are taken, and Rastani
21 can be seen as if in the palm of your hand, as the saying goes?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Now, show me, on this large photograph - if, that is, we can see
24 it - how far did the BH army withdraw?
25 No, let's start like this. According to you, what was -- how far
1 did the BH army advance?
2 A. When?
3 Q. Well, in their attack when they took Rastani.
4 A. But they were in Dumpor's houses that morning. In Dumpor's
5 houses, they were soldiers of the BH army.
6 Q. So where did they withdraw? Can one see that place on these
8 A. Well, I think -- well, I'm not sure if it is in my statement, but
9 I saw them with my own eyes. From these houses, around from these houses
10 towards the railroad tracks and down the village.
11 Q. Will you use the pointer and show us where down the village.
12 A. Well, more or less here, or perhaps this way. And so on.
13 Q. And going where?
14 A. They were moving from one house to the other. But as you said,
15 behind this hill, the village of Rastani can be seen as if in the palm of
16 your hand. And as they transferred from one house to the other, they
17 became targets as they moved from one house to the other.
18 Q. So the HVO knew exactly what houses they were in?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell me, where did you -- will you bring this photograph down.
21 Will you move it to the middle so that we can see Neretva. Bring it down
22 slightly so that we can see the river, so we can see the Neretva. Yes,
24 Will you now please use the pointer and point at the Neretva.
25 A. I think that it's this here.
1 Q. Witness, don't you think it's a bit further away? Let me help
2 you. The lower one, don't you see here?
3 A. I don't know what was the relevance. You could also point at the
4 Neretva to me.
5 Q. Well, I'm asking you if you know where it is. If you don't, tell
7 A. Well, I said I thought it was this, the Neretva.
8 Q. And on the other bank of the river, whose positions, who held that
9 bank of the Neretva?
10 A. If we look down the Neretva on the right-hand side, the BH Army.
11 Q. So they were crossing the river, returning to their positions; is
12 that it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. From the positions -- unfortunately, we do not have this
15 photograph so the Chamber could gain a picture, and according to the last
16 decision, as far as I understand, we shall not be going to see it
17 personally. But so that the Chamber can gain the picture of what Rastani
18 looks like and where whose position was.
19 My apologies, Witness, my colleague warns me again. Because of
20 the speed, the transcript does not say who mans the positions on the -
21 now, how are we going to say - on the left or the right-hand side of the
23 A. On the left-hand side of the Neretva.
24 Q. On the left-hand side of the Neretva?
25 A. Looking downstream, on the left-hand side, these positioned were
1 manned by the BH army.
2 Q. Now, will you please be so kind and use a dotted line to indicate
3 the direction of your movement, what you pointed to us with a pointer a
4 while ago? And then draw the line to show where the Neretva is.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And the Neretva River, please?
7 A. I can't really find my way to the Neretva here.
8 Q. Tell me, please, weren't you sent to Rastani after it was
9 established from the hill that the BH army had taken to its heels and that
10 everybody was leaving Rastani and was heading for the Neretva?
11 A. Well, you could say that about me and my colleague.
12 Q. Well, I'm asking you about you, yes.
13 A. Well, at the time we were sent down that hill, the soldiers who
14 were down there - that is, those infantry units - had already entered the
15 first house in Dumpor's village.
16 Q. But when you were sent down there, Witness, wasn't it established
17 from the HVO positions that the BH army had abandoned the village of
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you know where the positions of the BH army were on the 21st --
21 between the 21st of September and the 23rd of September? Do you have any
22 idea where those positions were? Do you have any personal knowledge of
24 A. I don't. But a soldier of the BH army was killed that day in the
25 Dumpor -- in Dumpor's houses, perhaps in one of those first houses.
1 Q. Did you see him being killed and when?
2 A. No, I only saw him dead.
3 Q. Then please don't speculate. I'm asking you -- I'm really begging
5 A. But you asked me, "If you were there." How could he be killed if
6 those soldiers were not there?
7 Q. I asked you a moment ago, Witness, and, well, don't think that
8 this counsel doesn't understand how -- you're answering me what way and
9 why you're answering me in this way. I'm asking you kindly, between the
10 21st of September and the 23rd of September. You said you didn't know
11 personally, that you didn't know it of your own knowledge when this
12 soldier was killed. He could have been killed on the 21st or the 23rd,
13 but you don't know. You are making conjectures. And here it looks as if
14 it were your personal knowledge.
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it is time for
16 a break because we need to focus and bring this cross-examination to an
18 JUDGE CLARK: Remember that this witness told us in direct
19 evidence that he came over one body and then another body and it was part
20 of his task to move the bodies in. So this witness is able to comment on
21 the nature of those bodies. Bear that in mind, because if you don't ask
22 him, we'll ask him, were they fresh bodies?
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll resume at 11.30.
24 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, before we start, could you inform us how
2 long you are going to take.
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't think more than
4 half an hour. It all depends on the witness, not on me.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may proceed.
6 MR. BOS: Your Honours.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.
8 MR. BOS: I really hope that we will be able to finish this
9 witness today. This witness has been here for two weeks as of today. And
10 because of last week, he has already been waiting for a long time. And I
11 really hope that he finishes. If we don't finish him today, he has to
12 come back on Tuesday, which is another four days. I hope that you can
13 take that into account.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. That's the very reason I asked how long
15 Mr. Krsnik will take for this witness.
16 You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Witness, let's try and conclude this as soon as possible. Let's
19 try to concentrate and be specific. So let us try again, and I will ask
20 you to answer as briefly as possible in order to clarify certain matters
21 for the Trial Chamber.
22 At what time in the morning of the 23rd of November --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, interpreter corrects: of September.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
25 Q. -- did the clash break out when the HVO started fighting around
1 Rastani. Please answer as briefly as you can and try to concentrate?
2 A. The artillery attack began very early. I think it was between
3 5.00 and 6.00 a.m.
4 Q. When did the infantry attack begin?
5 A. A group of eight prisoners was taken at about 7:30 from the
6 village of Djubrani.
7 Q. Witness, I didn't ask you about the prisoners. If you know when
8 the infantry attack of the HVO began, please tell us. And leave aside the
10 A. I just wanted to say that they were taken away at 7:30, and they
11 had to go down to the village of Rastani on their own, and they were
12 brought to the bunker to which I was brought by car. So when they got
13 down to the village, they found the soldiers of Tuta's unit behind the
14 houses, behind the wall.
15 Q. Witness, what time was it, if you know?
16 A. I assume they entered the first house between 11.00 and 12.00 a.m.
17 Q. Are you saying that the infantry attack by the HVO began at 7:30
18 and that they entered the first houses between 11.00 and 12.00?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very well. And you were watching from a hill and saw the whole
22 A. As far as I was allowed to.
23 Q. And from the hilltop, you could see the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 retreating; is that correct?
25 A. I personally saw several soldiers running across a field in the
1 direction of the railway track.
2 Q. What time was it when the two of you set out for Rastani, and with
3 what task did you set out, you and your friend?
4 A. As far as I can remember - and I didn't have a watch at the time -
5 it could have been around maybe around 2.00 when we set out towards
7 Q. And what was your task?
8 A. We were sent there to carry food, to bring food and refreshments,
9 soft drinks and cigarettes, to the soldiers who were fighting, who were
10 attacking the village.
11 Q. Does that mean that the fighting was over because the soldiers
12 were able to have lunch?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Would you tell me, please - and show it on this photograph, if you
15 can - did you go alone, the two of you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In which house did you find the soldiers, and where did you have
18 lunch, if you can indicate that on this photograph?
19 A. We were in Dumpor's houses, which are not visible on this
21 Q. And this is where you encountered the soldiers and where you had
23 A. Yes. The group I found there was in the first house in the
25 Q. And are you certain that this was in Dumpor's houses?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You remember that you marked on the map the location, both for the
3 Prosecution and for my learned friends yesterday?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Tell me, please, at the time, there was no one in Dumpor's houses,
6 apart from the HVO soldiers, at 2.00 p.m. when you arrived there -- or
7 excuse me, when did you arrive in Dumpor's houses? What time was it?
8 A. Well, the trip there took about half an hour, maybe a little
10 Q. So you arrived in Dumpor's houses after 2.30 p.m.
11 A. Well, I may have set out at 1.30 p.m. I didn't have a watch, but
12 it was around that time.
13 Q. Very well. How many dead HVO soldiers did you see and how many
14 dead soldiers belonging to the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
15 A. Along the road, we saw two dead soldiers belonging to the HVO, and
16 afterwards, we had to collect the bodies of soldiers who had been killed
17 on the other side of those houses. So I think that, all in all, there
18 were seven HVO soldiers and one soldier of the army of Bosnia and
20 Q. You did that after lunch?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you, the prisoners, have lunch together with the soldiers?
23 A. This group of four, I think they did have lunch, and I think that
24 the two of us did not.
25 Q. Wasn't your primary task to come and collect the bodies?
1 A. I didn't understand your question.
2 Q. Well, wasn't the reason why you were sent there precisely to
3 collect the bodies?
4 A. In my testimony, I told you what I did. I did what I was ordered.
5 Q. Well, that's exactly what I was asking you.
6 A. Yes. The first task we were given was to collect the bodies of
7 those who had been killed.
8 Q. Tell us, when you were in Dumpor's houses, did you hear that three
9 prisoners killed -- slaughtered three HVO soldiers who had been wounded
10 and then fled?
11 A. In Dumpor's houses?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. In Dumpor's houses, none of the seven soldiers were slaughtered,
14 and I can assert that with certainty. Of the seven soldiers we carried
15 there, not a single one had had his throat cut.
16 Q. You are talking about HVO soldiers?
17 A. Yes, none of them.
18 Q. And for the sake of the record, we are talking of the 23rd of
19 September at about 2:30 p.m., which is when you first laid eyes on the HVO
20 soldiers who had been killed. And you assert with certainty that not a
21 single one had had his throat cut?
22 A. Of those seven.
23 Q. Very well. And do you know that of those three prisoners -- that
24 three of the prisoners fled, escaped?
25 A. I learned that only in November.
1 Q. Tell me, please, did you learn how they managed to escape?
2 A. Yes. They were told to check whether there were any soldiers of
3 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the houses.
4 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you. Did you also learn the date when
5 that happened? Was it the 22nd or the 23rd?
6 A. When they escaped?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. On the 23rd.
9 Q. Very well. Very well.
10 A. They were told to go into a house to see if there were any army
11 soldiers inside. And when they entered the house, they really did find a
12 group of soldiers belonging to the army. And they prevented them from
13 going back where they had come from.
14 Q. The soldiers of the army prevented them?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So they left with them?
17 A. Yes. But I don't think all this took place in one single house.
18 I think that they had been given different tasks and that perhaps there
19 were two or three houses involved.
20 Q. In any case, it was prisoners from this group of eight?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So that four of them were left now, or five; correct?
23 A. From this group of four, one went missing, and no trace has been
24 found of him since.
25 Q. So you had lunch, you collected the dead. What time could it have
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts – Pages 6743 to 6755.
1 been then?
2 A. I think perhaps, perhaps nearly 3.00 p.m.
3 Q. Well, you had lunch and gathered the dead all in half an hour?
4 A. I'm saying this approximately. It could have been after 3.00.
5 Q. Very well. And then you took the route that you marked on the
6 picture. How many HVO soldiers were there?
7 A. In my group?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I can't remember precisely how many, but let us say -- let's say
10 there were around 10.
11 Q. And how many prisoners?
12 A. Six of us prisoners.
13 Q. Six. And how did you walk along this route that you marked? Did
14 you go as a group, or did you march in file two by two?
15 A. We walked in a group. We were all mixed together. Because if
16 only we had gone in front and the soldiers behind, as you asked me a while
17 ago, they would have been an easier target at that point, if there was a
18 straggler from the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the side. So we and the
19 soldiers from the unit were all mixed together in a group.
20 Q. Would you please take the pointer. You have drawn lines at a
21 right angle. So can you use your pointer to make a square.
22 A. In this corner here?
23 Q. No, no, no. Where the arrow is. You see where the line ends.
24 Can you just -- not using a marker but the pointer, can you please trace a
25 square toward the hill?
1 A. [Indicates]
2 Q. That's right, that's right. Excellent. So in this square, you
3 see there is a wood, one house on one side, two on the other. Were there
4 any B and H soldiers there? Couldn't you see from the hill that there
5 weren't any left?
6 A. Counsel, you're asking me questions as if I had taken part in
7 planning and conducting this operation.
8 Q. Very well. I understand. Tell us, please, couldn't the soldiers
9 from the top of the hill who saw everything below -- it was already 3.00
10 p.m. Couldn't they see? Did they have Motorolas? Did they have
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 Q. So wasn't it obvious that there was not a single B and H army
14 soldier left there?
15 A. Well, let me put a counter-question to you. Why, then, did not
16 the soldiers leave us behind and say, "You are prisoners and we shall go
17 on and continue our operation"?
18 Q. Sir, of course, I cannot answer your questions. But because some
19 people escaped and you had to be guarded; isn't that logical?
20 A. You mean we were sent into military action in order to be guarded
22 Q. Another question: Did anyone shoot at you?
23 A. I think that there was sporadic gunfire but no major gunfire at
24 that point.
25 Q. Was there any gunfire in this square?
1 A. No.
2 Q. That afternoon, you said that they could be seen running toward
3 the Neretva. Were they -- had they gone a long way from the railway
4 tracks by then?
5 A. Counsel, let me tell you: The soldiers of the army of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina had no communication among themselves, because they had no
7 Motorolas or communications equipment.
8 Q. How do you know this?
9 A. That's how those two men were taken prisoner. They didn't know
10 where the other soldiers were. They didn't know that they were
11 withdrawing, that some had already withdrawn.
12 Q. How do you know this?
13 A. I saw the soldiers who had been taken prisoner and who had no idea
14 where the positions were at that exact moment or who they would encounter
15 and where.
16 Q. You saw this. Did you talk to them?
17 A. I saw that they did not have any communication with the soldiers
18 they were supposed to meet up with in the village.
19 Q. Were they taken prisoner by your group or another group, those
21 A. No, no. It was not my group.
22 Q. Were they brought to you? Did you meet up somewhere along the
23 road? Were they brought to you?
24 A. No, no. The soldiers used the Motorola to inform my group that
25 they had taken two army of Bosnia and Herzegovina soldiers prisoner.
1 Q. Very well. Did someone talk to them before you saw them? Were
2 their Motorolas confiscated?
3 A. No.
4 Q. How do you know? Were you present when they were taken prisoner?
5 A. No. I was not present when they were taken prisoner.
6 Q. Thank you, then. Thank you. Thank you.
7 A. You're welcome.
8 Q. Tell me please, at 3.00 or 4.00 p.m., was not the village of
9 Rastani completely in the hands of the HVO?
10 A. You could say that.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
12 A. You're welcome.
13 Q. Sir, could you please lower the photograph a little, just a
14 little. Can we agree that where the arrow you have drawn is -- from that
15 point to the River Neretva, there's a clear space?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If there had been soldiers in these houses, they would have been
18 found by 3.00 p.m. or they would have fired shots; is that correct?
19 A. Where the arrow is?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. From these houses to the Neretva, can we agree now -- you see this
23 little lake here at the top of the photograph. Do you recognise the River
24 Neretva now? You can see a small pool or lake at the top of the
1 A. I really don't see it.
2 Q. Very well. So there's a clear place. And they would have had to
3 leave a long time ago or they would have been shot like clay pigeons,
4 either by the soldiers from the hilltop or those in the houses; is that
6 A. Well, they could have been behind the railway track.
7 Q. Well, is there a clear space between the railway track and the
9 A. I can't see where the Neretva is.
10 Q. From the railway track towards the top of the photograph, is that
11 a clear space?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At 3.00 p.m., was there any shooting behind the railway track in
14 the direction of the Neretva?
15 A. There was shooting all that day.
16 Q. No, please. It's 3.00 p.m., and you are near these houses. Were
17 there soldiers running toward the Neretva.
18 A. I don't know that.
19 Q. Very well. If they had been running, would you have seen them, or
20 would they have been shot? Because there was a clear space. There was no
22 A. Well, they probably didn't dare take that route to retreat.
23 Q. Well, then, am I not correct in saying that they all left long
25 A. I wouldn't know that.
1 Q. Very well. Tell me, then, no one fired shots at you? There were
2 no soldiers in any of these houses, so what sort of human shield were you,
4 A. Counsel, half an hour ago I explained what a human shield is.
5 Q. Very well. Very well.
6 Now my next question, please: The petrol can that the soldier you
7 called Splico had, how big was it?
8 A. I think it was a 20-litre canister, and he was carrying it in his
10 Q. How big was it? Can you describe it? Was it made of metal or
12 A. Well, it doesn't matter whether metal or plastic. Twenty litres
13 is twenty litres.
14 Q. Very well. Where did he bring it from?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Was he going into action carrying this petrol?
17 A. I noticed it when we left the house where we had had lunch.
18 Q. And he was carrying this on his own, and he set five to ten houses
19 with twenty litres?
20 A. Approximately, yes.
21 Q. Tell me, did he have this kind of patch on his sleeve?
22 A. Counsel, as for insignia, you can see in my testimony two days ago
23 what I said about the insignia.
24 Q. Very well. Very well. Very well. We know what you said. We
25 have the transcript. That is why I put the statement to you, which you
1 gave a long time ago when your memory was fresher. And you confirmed that
2 what you told the investigators then was correct.
3 Tell me, please, you don't remember the patch? If you're looking
4 for it, it's on page 9, the first paragraph at the top of the page. We
5 looked at it together where you describe the insignia of the Convicts
7 Tell me, do you know who liberated Rastani from whom in 1992?
8 JUDGE CLARK: You mean 1993?
9 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No, 1992. I think there will be an
10 objection, so I will explain its relevance right away.
11 Q. Didn't the HVO and the army of B and H liberate Rastani from the
12 JNA in the summer of 1992?
13 A. You could say that.
14 Q. Was there not a lot of destruction in Rastani then?
15 A. Sir, I said that in my statement, that almost every Serbian
16 house - and they were in the majority in Rastani - was set alight in
18 Q. Would you agree with me that 70 to 80 per cent of these houses in
19 the village were Serbian?
20 A. I don't know what percentage it was, but I do know that more than
21 half of the houses were Serbian.
22 Q. And Dumpor's houses were not Serbian houses?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And when you saw them, they were intact?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. All right. And tell us, so this Splico takes this
2 can, goes around and ignites?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that was it. And after that, nothing?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Why? He ran out of petrol. Or didn't want to?
7 A. Well, I think we have come down to those houses which probably
8 were Serb, or I already said that this house that we were in had been
9 damaged long ago.
10 Q. And Splico knows which houses are Serb and which are not Serb
12 A. Well, Serb houses were destroyed a year before that.
13 Q. And no Muslim houses? Didn't the Yugo army shell Rastani? Wasn't
14 that one of the principal battles for the liberation of Mostar in 1992?
15 A. If dozens and dozens of Bosniak houses in Rastani, what will it
16 mean if I say yes, there were two or three or five of them destroyed?
17 Q. Very well. But Splico knows those which are intact, to Splico's
18 mind, are Muslim?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Uh-huh. Very well. And where does this Splico come from?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Wouldn't Splico be a nickname for somebody from Split?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Oh, I see. You don't know. Very well. Tell me, please - and
25 I'll try to be very clear, very short, and very to the point - you
1 assume -- I mean, you assume that the old man called and those two men
2 who had petrol poured over them to remain alive? You did not hear it on
3 the Motorola, you personally?
4 A. How could I hear it over the Motorola?
5 Q. Thank you. So it is your assumption that the old man is Tuta; is
6 that correct?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Now take your statement, page 11. Yes, yes, page 11 of your
9 statement. Third passage, the last two sentences. And you say here very
10 unambiguously, very unambiguously: "When he was" -- no. Let's do the
11 whole sentence. "I think they survived only because when -- after being
12 notified that those two were captured," now you say, "Tuta ordered to
13 bring them alive." That is what you told The Hague investigators?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Yes. But as a matter of fact, you don't know that, do you? Isn't
17 A. But I heard the soldier who told the others that he had received
18 the order on the Motorola to bring them alive.
19 Q. Two days ago, you said "the old man," and you concluded. But
20 today you said that you could not conclude that it was Tuta, you didn't
21 hear Tuta, you didn't know it was Tuta. And I'm telling you - you see
22 this is your statement in writing - you told The Hague investigators that
23 it was Tuta. Did you say that to The Hague investigators?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. But it doesn't change the context.
2 Q. Leave that to the Court. You are a witness. Don't be a witness,
3 an expert witness, and the judge or the witness. You just tell us about
4 what you know, please.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, my next question: Had those -- those two were taken to
7 Siroki Brijeg, to a command - two days ago, you said "Tuta's command" -
8 and that they were found there by the Red Cross.
9 A. I didn't say that.
10 Q. So the Red Cross didn't find them there?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, go one line below that and look at what you say in your
13 statement. "That night we returned to the Heliodrom. Two captured
14 detainees were taken to Tuta's house at Siroki Brijeg." Did you mean
15 Tuta's house?
16 A. I don't know what it is. I don't know.
17 Q. Very well. Let's move on. "They kept them in the cellar at
18 Tuta's command in Siroki Brijeg. I heard it from a group of 15 to 20
19 detainees who were also kept secretly at Tuta's headquarters in Siroki
20 Brijeg. This group was brought to Heliodrom later, and they told me the
21 story. We were able to inform the ICRC about this, and the ICRC found
22 those two in the basement of Tuta's headquarters."
23 A second ago you said that you never said that.
24 A. Let me tell you, counsel, sir, in my statement two days ago, I
25 provided a sequence of events which is accurate.
1 Q. Very well. Very well. But let me --
2 A. The International Committee of the Red Cross found them in
3 Ljubuski when undoubtedly, undoubtedly, that organisation had put pressure
4 or somebody else put pressure on the HVO, on Tuta's unit, or I don't know
5 who, and they were transferred sometime between -- during the latter half
6 of November to Ljubuski and registered there. And this could also be a
7 mistake in interpretation at the time when I was making my statement. But
8 I do not think that it is of the highest relevance for the two men who
9 were captured and kept hidden for two months by Tuta.
10 Q. Very well. Very well. All right. Do you want me to let him go
12 A. I've finished.
13 Q. I see. Very well.
14 Witness, all that you told us is something that you heard. You
15 have no personal knowledge about this, do you?
16 A. I and a group of detainees --
17 Q. Please, once again, I'm asking you if know this personally or did
18 you hear about this? This is a simple answer, please.
19 A. I heard from the officials of the International Committee of the
20 Red Cross the things that I said in my statement.
21 Q. In your statement, you say that you heard it from a group of 50 to
22 20 detainees. Shall we read it once again?
23 A. Just a moment. Counsel, sir, from detainees, I heard they were
24 being hidden in the cellar underneath Tuta's headquarters. And from the
25 International Committee of the Red Cross, we heard that they had been
1 found and registered between the middle and the end of November.
2 Q. Where? Where were they found and registered?
3 A. I am not sure, but I think it was in the prison at Ljubuski.
4 Q. I see. Do you remember that two days ago they said they were not
6 A. They could not find them -- they could not locate them for two
7 months while Tuta hid them in the cellar underneath his headquarters.
8 Q. You say "When he hid them." Do you know that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have personal knowledge of this?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. You were in Tuta's headquarters?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You were in Siroki Brijeg and saw Tuta hide them?
15 A. My dear sir, with those soldiers, with those detainees, I was
16 exchanged on the same day and at the same time of the day.
17 Q. Very well. You heard it from others. Then don't tell us that you
18 know it, if you heard it from others.
19 A. But I heard it personally from those soldiers.
20 Q. Very well. If need be, they will probably tell us about it.
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Yes. Now, tell me, and it says that this statement was read out
23 to you. It contains all that I said. It was read in Bosnian and
24 translated. And then you said: "And we informed the Red Cross about it,
25 and the Red Cross found those two men in the cellar of Tuta's
1 headquarters." So that is not true, what you told the investigators.
2 A. Dear, sir --
3 Q. Did you say that? Tell me first.
4 A. I knew it exactly then, and now, where they had been found. And I
5 knew exactly where they had been hidden.
6 Q. Witness, please, did you say that to The Hague investigators?
7 A. I really don't know. I'm repeating, perhaps it was a
9 Q. Very well. Thank you.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session,
11 please, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.
13 [Private session]
13 Page 6769 – redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE LIU: We are now in the open session. Mr. Par, you may
10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you very much, Your
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness SS. My name is Zelimir Par, and I'm one
14 of the counsel for Vinko Martinovic.
15 A. Good afternoon.
16 Q. I will ask you a few questions related to your testimony so far.
17 I'd like to suggest that we start from that day, 6th and 7th of July,
18 1993. That is the day when you left Heliodrom to go to work for the unit
19 for which you told us it was Stela's unit. You remember that part of your
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Now, at the outset, I'd like to ask you to look at a document and
23 discuss those dates and that work. It is Prosecution Exhibit P434, from
24 binder 19 [as interpreted].
25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] While we have to wait for this document
1 and look at it, I will tell the Chamber what we are talking about. This
2 is an order to send prisoners of war to work. I am afraid there is no
3 English version of this document, but it is very easy to understand, even
4 in its original version, because these are all tables.
5 At the same time, could we place it on the ELMO for the witness to
6 see, because it's only a couple of sentences. Oh, you found it, thank
8 JUDGE CLARK: What book is it from, Mr. Par? Did you say "19" or
10 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Nine, nine, nine. Binder 9. P434.
11 Q. Witness SS, if you have this document before you, will you please
12 have a look at it and tell us what it is about. And then I'll ask you a
13 question. So tell me when you are ready. Let us only deal with the first
14 page, so as not to waste too much time.
15 So you can see it is a document entitled, "Order to assign
16 prisoners of war to labour." Do you see the title of this document? We
17 can -- can we see who issued this document? Can you see that it says:
18 "Military secret, strictly confidential," the reference number? Can you
19 see all that?
20 And now, if you turn page 1, do you see that it says: "Croat
21 Republic Herceg-Bosna, Ministry of Defence, Military Police
22 Administration, Garrison 1711"? Can you see all that?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Now, look at the dates, 6th and 7th of July, 1993. That is, it is
25 the dates when you went out to work. And will you please look at what it
1 says here. Because you can see that you have columns, order to assign
2 people to work, a certain date, the reference number, and the person in
3 charge, the person in charge of the prisoners of war being taken out to
4 work assignment. Now, will you please look at the dates, 6th and 7th of
5 July, 1993, from number 12, down to 20. Have you found it?
6 A. Just a moment. Yes.
7 Q. Now, what I'd like to ask you -- we were talking about who took
8 you out from Heliodrom that day. You mentioned that as far as you could
9 remember, you were not quite sure but that it could have been somebody
10 called Luka who was there. My question is: Could it be this Luka Barisic
11 because it says here that on the 6th and 7th, he was the person in charge
12 of taking persons out. Could it be that Luka Barisic?
13 A. I really don't know what his last name was. But I'm not sure
14 about his name at all. I believe I said I think his name was Luka. But
15 there was also Luka who always took prisoners to the military police. And
16 I cannot confirm that.
17 Q. Very well. But we can confirm that Luka Barisic's name appears
18 here, at least in this document, on the 6th and 7th of July, '93. You can
19 see that, can't you?
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 Q. Now, look at these dates, 6th and 7th. Which unit could it be
22 that they were taken to? Can you see that? On the 6th and 7th, it was
23 all the 1st Light Assault Brigade. Can you see that? Now, what I was
24 about to ask you: Would you allow for that possibility, that on the 6th
25 and 7th of July, you were taken by a soldier from the Light Assault
1 Brigade, judging by this document, judging by the fact that this name Luka
2 figures here? Would you grant that it is possible?
3 A. In my statement and my testimony, I never once mentioned the words
4 "light assault," so I cannot confirm that.
5 Q. That is what I wanted to show to you. Because I wanted us to see
6 that at that moment, when you came out of the Heliodrom, whether you knew
7 who was taking you and where, to what unit. Was it something that you
8 could know, that you had positive knowledge of, or was it merely
10 A. Counsel, we were men who had been captured. We had no right to
11 ask names or where we were going or why we were going where we were
13 Q. Very well. Now, we are still at those dates, that is, the 6th and
14 7th of July. So you've left the Heliodrom. Will you now look at this
15 photograph. You already saw it during the direct examination, and I see
16 you find your way around very well. It is 14.4.
17 Now, Witness, you recognise this photograph?
18 A. As far as I remember.
19 Q. During the direct examination, you said that you knew where this
20 zone of so-called Stela's unit was, that you knew that to the left and to
21 the right there were some other units, but that you could not accurately
22 say where the boundaries of individual zones were. Am I right in saying
24 A. Yes, you are.
25 Q. But I would nevertheless like to ask you: You mentioned that the
1 military police was on one side of this Health Centre. So I'm not asking
2 you exactly for the boundaries of the zone, but will you put, say, "1" at
3 the place where you are positive was held by the military police.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. So will you please, if you are sure that the military police was
6 at some place, put "1." I'm not asking you to draw any boundaries between
7 the zones.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Likewise, since you have this photograph in front of you, can you
10 show us where some other unit was on the other side, if you know which
11 unit? And you will tell us.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Just a moment. Let us have it on the ELMO. Will you please use
14 the pointer so that we can all see -- so that we can all see where the
15 military police was, for instance.
16 A. This building here, this building here is the building of the
17 Aleksa Santic Secondary School. Behind that building here, next to this
18 corner, I worked and made a bunker on the 2nd of August. So this building
19 must have been held by the military police. And one of the bunkers was
20 right next to the corner of the building here.
21 Q. Very well. Now, on the other side of the Health Centre, what
22 other units? Will you please point at number 2. Where did you put
23 number 2?
24 A. Perhaps I'm not quite sure. I put number 4 here.
25 Q. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
1 A. Because it was the 4th Battalion here.
2 Q. Mm-hmm. Very well. Now, talking about the 4th Battalion, you
3 mentioned that in that area, in the 4th Battalion's area on that day, on
4 the 6th or on the 7th - I'm not sure - you were working at a bunker
5 carrying sandbags. Can you show us where that bunker is on this
6 photograph and which you think was in the area of the 4th Battalion.
7 A. That is not how I put it.
8 Q. Then I misunderstood you.
9 A. Yes, you misunderstood me. I said -- I said this is Liskina
10 Street. And behind this building, somewhere down to these houses here, we
11 carried sandbags on the 7th of July. I carried them only. Some other
12 soldiers were -- made a bunker here, somewhere here, between these houses.
13 Q. Right. Will you keep the pointer there, please, just keep the
14 pointer there. Now, according to you, in your view, is that the zone of
15 Stela's unit or of the 4th Battalion? Do you know that, or did you know
17 A. That day, Stela's soldiers were with us. They had brought us from
18 in front of his headquarters and guarded us there the whole day. So that
19 I assume that a bunker that we made was used by his unit.
20 Q. Very well. I suppose I understand you well. You are saying this
21 only because there were soldiers with you, but you have no positive
22 knowledge of where the 4th unit's zone began and where Stela's unit ended?
23 A. Well, I could not see the plan of assignments or the combat orders
24 of the units to give an accurate answer. I'm telling you only what I
1 Q. Well, that is what I'm trying to show here. That even if you came
2 there with Stela's units, it is still nevertheless possible that you
3 worked both for Stela's and for the 4th Battalion, if it had to do with
4 the fortification of bunkers or something like that. And that is all that
5 I wanted to achieve by asking you these questions.
6 But let me also make use of your excellent memory to help us with
7 it -- to help us with something, if you can. We have asked a number of
8 witnesses to draw it on this photograph. Do you remember if, on --
9 when -- where on the street which you called Liskina Street, where were
10 those sandbags? Could you draw them here, to the best of your
12 A. No. Unfortunately, I still take this -- walk this street very
13 often, and to within 30 metres or even more. I'm not sure where those
14 sandbags were, because when I walk this street, I look at this, I look for
15 this wall, and I look for that. I'm not sure. And I take this street
16 very often.
17 Q. But could you take the pointer, point at those 30 metres roughly,
18 where they were approximately?
19 A. Well, my guess would be here.
20 Q. So would you mark it. And perhaps say that it could be plus,
21 minus 30 metres. So put just a small question mark next to that line.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Very good. Now, do you remember perhaps, if there -- if beyond
24 these sandbags, up this street, there was a cord from this -- hanging from
25 this Health Centre, which -- over which some blankets or some sheets or
1 something were hung as a screen, as a kind of protection from the gunfire,
2 from the sniper fire?
3 A. No. I only saw it between the Hotel Ero and the post office,
4 nowhere else. There, I do not remember.
5 Q. Very well. Now, if we are talking about the Health Centre, do you
6 remember how many entrances the Health Centre had at the time?
7 A. I don't.
8 Q. Do you remember if there was one entrance next to this fountain?
9 Do you remember if you could enter the Health Centre from there?
10 A. I never passed from the -- by the front.
11 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well. Could we go into private
12 session very briefly? I have a couple of questions.
13 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.
14 [Private session]
13 Page 6778 – redacted – private session.
13 Page 6779 – redacted – private session.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.
18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let us recall the event in connection with the flat in Kajtaz over
20 the taking out of the things in the flat. You said, as far as I remember,
21 that a family was probably evicted from that flat.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would now like to establish whether you knew the Kajtaz family.
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you know what happened to the family, or do you only assume
1 what happened? I'm talking about that particular family.
2 A. Well, it is not hard to guess what happened to the Kajtaz family
3 when we entered the flat, which was intact, and the family was missing.
4 Q. Sir, I understand that you are coming to conclusions based on your
5 way of thinking. I am simply trying to establish whether this is your
6 conclusion or whether you had any definite information. I can see now
7 from your response that this is your conclusion on the basis of your
8 knowledge. But you do not have any information about this, about where
9 they went?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. We have finished with that flat and the things in it, so I have
12 only a few more questions for you.
13 At one point, you mentioned that Stela's unit was called Mrmak.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you ever see the insignia of this unit, or just the name?
16 A. I can't remember. I never said anything about insignia. I can't
18 Q. Just a moment, please. If you would bear with me. I have just
19 one more question. When you were taken to work, you were taken to
20 Balinovac, among other places?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. A mosque was destroyed there. Do you know who did that, or don't
23 you know?
24 A. I heard on the first or second day I was there, while I was
25 working there, from the soldiers who were guarding us -- and they were
1 members of the military police. I heard from them -- or rather, I heard
2 them talking among themselves saying that the mosque had been destroyed by
3 an old man called Misic, or he had given the orders for it to be
5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further questions.
6 Thank you, too.
7 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Bos?
8 MR. BOS: I'm hearing the B/C/S translation.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. There must be some problems with the channels.
10 Can you try it again?
11 MR. BOS: Yes. It must be fine now.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Bos:
13 MR. BOS: I just have a couple of things. I would like the
14 witness to be shown, again, Exhibit 34.2, which is the map of Rastani
15 which he marked himself. And I would like also to have the long
16 photograph, which I think is 34.3.
17 Q. Now, Witness, what I would like you to do is you've -- in
18 cross-examination, you've been examining this long photograph. And what I
19 would like to do is that you would mark on this map the area which we can
20 see on this long photograph so it's very clear to the Judges which part of
21 the map we actually -- is depicted on the photograph.
22 MR. BOS: Could you put the photograph on the overhead projector,
23 please, especially the left part where he marked.
24 Q. What we see here, could you please circle on the map, put a circle
25 where that is on the map, what we see on the screen. So that part which
1 you have actually marked, if you can circle that on the map.
2 A. On this map with a circle?
3 Q. Maybe what you could do is put a circle where you think on the map
4 is this electricity complex.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. And could you also, please, mark for us where you think that
7 photograph was taken. Put an arrow from where -- on the map the position
8 where that photograph was taken from so that we know from which side the
9 photograph was taken.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Okay. Thank you.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that it would be
14 fair to the witness, and to us, to have Dumpor's houses marked and Neretva
15 as well.
16 Because now I am confused, Mr. Bos.
17 MR. BOS: To be honest, I'm a bit confused as well as to where the
18 arrow was placed by the witness.
19 Q. Witness, could you look again at the map. And are you absolutely
20 sure that the photograph -- I know it's very complicated. Are you
21 absolutely sure that the photograph which we now see on the ELMO was taken
22 from the point where you placed the arrow?
23 A. Your Honours, this is a topographical map of the kind used in
24 war. It's not a picture. It wasn't taken from one side or another. I
25 put the arrow here looking at Rastani in the direction of the hill
1 approximately. So this arrow shows how it is seen from the side
2 controlled by the army of BH. So Dumpor's houses would be where number
3 "2" is.
4 And as I said, we went from Dumpor's houses to Elektroprenos
5 here. Then we turned right, but we didn't go far. And we stopped at some
6 houses there. When we were there at those houses, information was
7 received that two soldiers had been taken prisoner, and we were told to go
8 with the other soldiers left from the road we had come by, and we found
9 the imprisoned soldiers with a group of soldiers in houses here
11 So this crossroads here is, in fact, this angle here, which I drew
12 on this picture, this photograph. And Elektroprenos is here, which I have
13 marked here in front of this crossroads.
14 Q. Could you describe it this way: Would it not be that the
15 photograph was actually taken from the spot on the top of the map, rather
16 than on the bottom where you've put the arrow, if you look at the
18 A. This photograph was taken from the direction from which the HVO
19 army came, which is from this direction up here, from the top of the map.
20 Q. And could you, then, please mark the spot where you think the
21 photographer was. That was my question.
22 A. You mean this photograph?
23 Q. That photograph. Where would he have been on the map? Not on the
24 photograph, but on the map.
25 A. This one.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. This photograph shows clearly, in my mind -- or rather, this map
3 is a map of the village of Rastani, which can be seen from the other side
4 of the Neretva. So the photographer, if this were the photograph, would
5 have been able to see the village the way it looks approximately, perhaps
6 from the area of Vrapcici or something like that, which is on the other
7 bank of the Neretva, as I marked it with an arrow.
8 Let me just tell you, sir, on this photograph, you cannot see
9 Dumpor's houses, which we can see here on this picture.
10 Q. Again, looking at the photograph, where would Dumpor's houses be?
11 I know it's not on the photograph, but where would it be? In which
13 A. They would be here, in this corner somewhere.
14 Q. Maybe you can circle that corner, if you don't mind, or -- well, I
15 know it's --
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes?
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. You can draw on my
18 exhibit. I allow you to do that.
19 MR. BOS: Thank you, my learned colleague.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
23 MR. BOS: Maybe because -- I don't know if it's clear, we can show
24 a video of Rastani, and maybe the witness will then be able to identify
25 the Dumpor's houses on the video.
1 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
2 MR. KRSNIK: I don't have any objections. I don't know the
3 reasons. [Interpretation] I don't know what the purpose or the relevance
4 of this is. We showed it on the photograph. We showed it on the map.
5 What's the use of showing it on the video? I simply don't see the
6 relevance of showing it on the video.
7 MR. BOS: The relevance, Your Honour, is we still haven't seen the
8 houses. We don't have a photograph of it. We've only seen it on the
9 map. And it may be on the video. I must say it may be. I'm not sure if
10 the witness will be able to identify it.
11 JUDGE LIU: How long will that video last?
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Will you allow me?
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then I do have an objection, Your
15 Honour, because, again - and I do strenuously object - because attempts
16 are being made again to show houses that have been burnt down, houses that
17 have been destroyed. We do not know when or who did this because Rastani
18 was taken five times. There was a big clash in 1992 with heavy
19 artillery. And when Your Honours see these images, this will leave the
20 impression -- well, I don't know what it has to do with my client, the
21 total picture, the total image.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, from the maps and from the photographs, we have
23 got a rough idea of the situation there already. And if you want to show
24 some videotapes, you had better do it in your direct examination, rather
25 than the cross -- re-examination at this stage. So Mr. Bos, our advice is
1 that you withdraw this request.
2 MR. BOS: Well, yes. I think we are entitled to show the video,
3 but if the Judges think that it will not be helpful to them, I'm not
4 insisting. So I'll leave it in your hands. If you prefer not to see the
5 video, then that's the end of my redirect.
6 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges?
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE CLARK: Yes, I have a number of questions, and I hope I
9 don't keep everybody too late.
10 Witness SS, you were talking about how, when you went to the
11 Heliodrom, that you were given old JNA air force overalls that were blue,
12 and that led to your group collectively being known as the Blue
13 Orchestra. Do you remember how long you had these blue uniforms before
14 you were taken to Stela's headquarters - for the moment, I'll say that -
15 on what you think was on the 6th or the 7th of July?
16 A. I think that I wore the blue uniform approximately until the first
17 day when I was in Stela's unit. On that day, while we were taking the
18 things out of the flat, I took a T-shirt for myself - it had no sleeves -
19 and an old track suit, the lower part, the trousers of a track suit. So I
20 managed to change out of my blue uniform, which caused trouble for me
21 every day.
22 Some people wore the blue uniform throughout the summer. But I
23 have to emphasise I don't know if they had chosen small sizes on purpose
24 or whether they really were all small in size, but these uniforms, for a
25 man of my size -- they were for a man of my size, but they also had to be
1 worn by men who were much taller, who were a metre and 95, a metre point
2 95 taller, and a hundred kilograms in weight. And this degraded them,
3 this humiliated them even more because they looked so miserable in those
4 uniforms that were too small for them.
5 JUDGE CLARK: Sir, as I understand it, by your own efforts, you
6 managed to avoid wearing that blue uniform from the first day that you
7 went to Stela's unit.
8 A. From the 6th of July, I no longer wore the uniform, and maybe a
9 few other people managed to avoid wearing them.
10 JUDGE CLARK: When you gave your testimony two days ago, you
11 described how when you were brought to a certain premises in the town of
12 Mostar, that some of the soldiers said, "Boss, these are the men from the
13 army," and you had your first encounter with Mr. Stela. Were most of you
14 in the blue uniform on that day?
15 A. That morning, when we arrived at Stela's unit, I believe we all
16 wore blue uniforms.
17 JUDGE CLARK: And I have a recollection that you described how
18 Mr. Stela said to you, "Do you think you're here by accident?" Did he
19 explain the reason why you were there? Did he talk further to you after
20 he said that?
21 A. I described it in my statement at great length. Well, when he
22 came --
23 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... I'll just
24 repeat that because I cut across you. Sorry. We don't ever see your
25 statement, so you have to help us with that.
1 A. Well, the men who drove us to Stela's headquarters said that we
2 should wait there for the boss. And in about 15 minutes, a red Jeep
3 appeared, and from it, a man stepped down. And by the reaction, both of
4 the soldiers and his own reaction, we assumed it was Stela. The men who
5 brought us there told him, "Boss, these are the ones from the BH army."
6 And he started yelling, cursing, threatening and told us to stand against
7 a wall, put our heads down, and then proceeded to beat a man that we
8 talked about a while ago.
9 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. But did he ever explain to you what he meant
10 by, or did you appreciate what he meant by the statement "Do you think
11 you're here by accident"? Did you understand that to mean something
13 A. Well, as far as I'm concerned, I took it to mean - and others,
14 too - that his unit had asked for us, specifically for the 25 of us to be
15 brought there that very day.
16 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. You also described that when you arrived
17 at this premises, that it appeared from the inference that you draw from
18 the state of the premises and the name of the family on the door to have
19 been recently vacated. And --
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE CLARK: -- and can we, the Court, take it from that that it
22 was one of the first days that Mr. Stela was going into occupation of this
24 A. All I can do is make guesses, make assumptions. But it is
25 100 percent certain that that family had been evicted from their apartment
1 two, three, or five days before that, just as -- just like thousands of
2 other families.
3 JUDGE CLARK: Now, I know that you spent many days on different
4 parts of the front line. I don't know if you ever went back to that house
5 that had been recently evacuated. But if you can, could you describe to
6 us what the building was like. I don't need very fine detail, but was it
7 a villa or an apartment house or a very modern block, or what sort of
8 premises was it?
9 A. If I remember correctly, I spent three days in front of that
10 building; that is, I was there on three occasions. And I think that that
11 building had two floors only. And I remember that this flat was on the
12 second floor of that building, that that is where the headquarters was,
13 where I went from which we had to take out those things, where I cleaned
14 weapons --
15 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.
16 A. -- and so on and so forth.
17 JUDGE CLARK: Now, you described a little later how you heard that
18 the unit that Stela commanded was called Mrmak and that you heard
19 something about a dog, this being the name of his dog. Who did you hear
20 that from and approximately - I don't need the dates - but approximately
21 when did you hear that? Was it before or after you went to this recently
22 vacated apartment?
23 A. Well, I think the first day that I was there, I saw "Mrmak"
24 written on a car. And at that moment, it looked a bit odd to me. But
25 people who knew about that explained it that day after we returned to the
1 camp, and so on and so forth, that that was the name of Stela's dog. But
2 whatever, the cars said "Mrmak."
3 JUDGE CLARK: When you were leaving the camp in the morning to go
4 out and do certain work, were you ever told by anyone at the camp or when
5 you were on the way to wherever you were being taken, were you ever told
6 who had requested your presence to do work and where you were going?
7 A. Your Honours, I must say one thing: In the HVO army, there were
8 hundreds of soldiers who fought, who waged war honourably. There were
9 hundreds of soldiers who behaved honourably and protected the dignity of
10 prisoners. And by doing that, they were also protecting their own
11 dignity, the dignity of their street, of their town, of their people, and
12 so on and so forth.
13 However, that does not apply to the two men we are talking about
14 here in this case, in this trial. When a car turns up to take people to
15 Stela's unit and when another, a blue car, turns up to take people to the
16 military police, the camp inmates would practically suffer cardiac
17 infarctions. It is not simple to explain it in this relaxed atmosphere.
18 It is impossible to -- I mean, the horror beggars description.
19 A guy, a good friend of mine, suffered a nervous breakdown when in
20 the human shield at Rastani. He is in a psychiatric sanitorium to this
21 day. That young man who went missing in Rastani in September 1993, his
22 mother, she lives alone, she has nobody. Until last year, she could not
23 come to terms with the fact that her son was dead.
24 JUDGE CLARK: I can understand that. I don't want to cause you
25 any pain. You can take it that for my part - I can only speak for me -
1 that I do understand that everybody suffers appallingly in war and
2 especially when, as you describe, these are your own people.
3 I just want to ask you a few more questions because I'm very
4 conscious of the fact that I'm using up valuable time. Yes, and I'm
5 reminded of that. I had some notes of what I wanted to ask. Yes. Just
6 two more questions. I think you've answered one already.
7 When you were in Rastani, and being used as you described, were
8 any of you wearing your blue air force uniforms at that stage, or how were
9 you dressed?
10 A. No. Nobody had the blue uniform in Rastani. Everybody had
11 somehow tried to manage in the course of the summer to replace the uniform
12 by something else.
13 JUDGE CLARK: Do you recall how were you dressed in comparison
14 with the soldiers who were guarding you or who were engaged in combat?
15 A. I really cannot remember what I was wearing in Rastani. But those
16 were basically some thin -- some light T-shirts, some old sportswear,
17 something like that.
18 JUDGE CLARK: The point was just to see whether you were dressed
19 as soldiers.
20 And the final question I want to ask you is: When you came across
21 first one body as you were going down with the lunch to the soldiers in
22 the first house, and then another body, and then you talked about five
23 other bodies behind the house, and a body from the ABiH, can you tell me
24 the condition of those bodies? Were they from a previous encounter, or
25 what was their condition?
1 A. No. The bodies of those killed soldiers were in a condition that
2 allowed one to establish easily that they had been killed only a few hours
3 or a few minutes earlier. Some were bloody. The two bodies which I came
4 across, walking towards the village, may have been killed perhaps a few
5 hours earlier, several hours earlier. Those men were lying there. There
6 were very many insects covering their eyes and all that, and the rigor
7 mortis had, I believe, started to set in. I'd really rather not talk
8 about it.
9 JUDGE CLARK: I didn't want you to go into that kind of detail.
10 Thank you very much for your assistance. I'm sorry to have opened old
11 wounds for you.
12 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?
13 Yes, Mr. Par, maybe you could be the first one.
14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Very briefly.
15 Further cross-examination by Mr. Par:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, who gave you those uniforms?
17 A. It was those guards, the police, at the Heliodrom.
18 Q. Was there any criteria where they singled some of you out and said
19 some will have blue uniforms, others will not?
20 A. Yes. They provided those uniforms for us because we were 25 or
21 27 -- I can't remember exactly. But those uniforms were given only to us
22 who had been captured as members of the army Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 Q. Did you subsequently check whether you were wearing those
24 uniforms? Did somebody take care of that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Tell me, since you say they were all small sizes, and it was
2 humiliating to wear them, do you know if it was an army secondary school
3 before the war, that they had cadets, boys 15 to 17, who were wearing
4 those uniforms? Do you know that?
5 A. No, I didn't know that. But it was quite possible.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Krsnik:
8 Q. [Interpretation] On the 21st of September, did the BH army attack
9 and take Rastani over from the HVO?
10 JUDGE CLARK: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the judge, please.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is because of the
13 Dumpor's houses and the bodies.
14 A. No, it wasn't the 21st. The Armija put Rastani under it's
15 control, if my memory serves me well, on the 19th of September.
16 Q. Excellent, on the 19th of September. Could it be possible -- of
17 course, I know that you do not know it, but could it be possible that men
18 were killed then?
19 A. I didn't understand the question.
20 Q. Were people killed on that occasion, too, perhaps?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Excuse me, I do not have any further
22 questions. You do not have to answer that.
23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bos.
24 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours, I do not have any further questions.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much, Witness, for helping
1 us. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of the
3 Yes, Mr. Bos.
4 MR. BOS: I do have a few exhibits to tender.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please.
6 MR. BOS: If I can do that now, I would like to tender
7 Exhibit 20.8 as marked. That's the photograph of the HV barracks in the
8 Heliodrom. Slash 3, all right.
9 Then that's a new exhibit, Exhibit 34.10, which is the map of the
10 Rastani area, the big map.
11 [Witness withdrew]
12 MR. BOS: And then 34.10/1 as the map as it was marked. And
13 Exhibit 890, which is the sketch of the patch. And Exhibit 34.2/1, which
14 is the smaller map as marked by the witness.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there's no objections from the
16 Defence counsel.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Mr. Par?
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But I also have some exhibits to
21 tender, too.
22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, we have no objections. But we would
23 like to tender certain documents into evidence.
24 JUDGE LIU: All those documents are admitted into the evidence.
25 Yes, you may continue, Mr. Par.
1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] My apologies to you, Your Honour. So
2 counsel for Mr. Martinovic proposes P434, which is this order to send
3 people for work out of the camp, and the map 14.4 with markings made by
4 the witness today.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] D1/38. It was the Exhibit 20.8, and
7 D1/31. It was Exhibit 34.3. I'd like to tender them into evidence as
8 Defence exhibits. Those are the photographs, you know.
9 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Bos?
10 MR. BOS: No objections, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So those documents have been
12 admitted into the evidence.
13 Yes, Mr. Scott.
14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I apologise for taking one more minute
15 of the Chamber's time. Just some schedule questions. Apparently there's
16 some schedules floating around the building showing you to be sitting on
17 another matter next week in the afternoons, which is the same time that
18 we're sitting. And we don't know if there's any confusion about that.
19 This case is sitting in the afternoons next week from approximately 2.00
20 to 7.00.
21 JUDGE LIU: You mean next Monday?
22 MR. SCOTT: I mean next week in general.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Please.
24 MR. SCOTT: Then there's a second question: There has also been
25 an indication that Mr. Milosevic will be appearing in the Court again on
1 the 11th of December. In the past, it has been the case - I don't know
2 why - but we can't seem to do any other business in this building when he
3 is here. Are we to understand it that we will not be in session on the
4 11th of December?
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 Here I also have an announcement to make concerning the sittings
7 of next Monday. Because of the technical problems, we'll start our
8 hearing at 5.00 p.m. Monday afternoon instead of 4.30, which means we'll
9 have a night session. During that sitting, we will somehow relax the
10 rules in this courtroom; that is, the refreshments will be allowed in this
11 courtroom so long as we can keep this room clean.
12 Another matter is, as the Prosecutor mentioned just now, there
13 will be no sitting on 11th of December, which means during that week, we
14 only have one day; that is the Monday.
15 The third matter is that this room will be used for another case,
16 so we would like to ask everybody to take out all the personal belongings
17 and the documents out of this room.
18 We'll adjourn until next Monday.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.25 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of December,
21 2001, at 5.00 p.m.