Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6798

1 Monday, 3 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 5.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good evening, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

9 MR. STRINGER: Good evening, Mr. President and Your Honours. The

10 next witness is ready. He is, as the Court knows, a videolink witness.

11 He is present in his remote location.

12 I just wanted to make sure that I'm getting an English

13 translation. I'm not hearing anything in my headphones, or I wasn't a few

14 minutes or few seconds before. It's working, okay.

15 Mr. President, this next witness has requested that he be granted

16 two protective measures, that is, pseudonym and facial distortion. And I

17 believe this witness would be Witness UU and has requested those

18 protective measures.

19 I could also proceed to inform the Trial Chamber of the relevant

20 portions of the indictment that this testimony will relate to. First of

21 all, paragraph 7 and paragraph 11 of the background part of the indictment

22 regarding coordination with the army of Croatia, the HV, as well as

23 systematic pattern of discrimination against the Bosnian Muslim

24 population; paragraphs 14 through 17, which relate to the superior

25 authority of both of the accused; the general allegations contained in

Page 6799

1 paragraphs 18 through 21, which relate to international armed conflict and

2 widespread and systematic campaign; paragraphs 27 through 30, 33, and 34

3 of count 1, which relate to the detention facilities, presence of the

4 accused in the detention facilities, beatings of detainees; paragraphs 37

5 and 39, which are part of counts 2 through 5, regarding presence of the

6 accused in the Heliodrom and the use of detainees on front-line positions

7 for forced labour; and finally paragraphs 45, 49, and 50, which are part

8 of counts 9 through 12, relating to torture and beatings of detainees.

9 Mr. President, we have here in the courtroom a sheet of paper on

10 which we have written the name and the pseudonym of the witness, and as

11 well as his birth date, and I believe that Mr. Dubuisson also has such a

12 piece of paper in his possession, and I would ask that he show that piece

13 of paper to the witness at this time.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.

15 Mr. Par.

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

17 Mr. President, before we move on to this stage, I wish to say that we

18 shall object to these measures. So before you rule on the application,

19 please allow me to state our reasons, and I would like to do it in private

20 session, if possible.

21 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, there is some background noise, some

23 interference. I wonder if that can be dealt with.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Examined by Mr. Stringer:

18 Q. Witness, you are now being a shown a piece of paper. I simply ask

19 if you can tell us whether on that piece of paper you find your correct

20 name and date of birth.

21 A. Yes. On the sheet of paper is my name, and my date of birth is

22 correct.

23 Q. Witness, as you've heard, the Trial Chamber has granted the

24 request for protective measures, so you are going to be given the

25 pseudonym "UU." And I will ask that during your testimony, please don't

Page 6807

1 disclose to us or say your name or give us any other information which

2 might result in your being identified publicly.

3 Now, Witness, let me ask you, are you a Bosnian Muslim who lived

4 in the area of Travnik and Turbe in Central Bosnia in 1993?

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. And before 1993, did you actually live in Germany for a number of

7 years during the 1980s and early 1990s and work in Germany during those

8 years?

9 A. That's right, yes, I worked there.

10 Q. And then did you return to the Travnik area in Central Bosnia in

11 November of 1991, from Germany to try to start your own company?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And then in 1991 and 1992, were you living in that area, Travnik

14 and Turbe, with your wife and with your nine-year-old son?

15 A. Yes, that is right. I lived there.

16 Q. And finally, on this line of questions, in July of 1992, were you

17 mobilised into the civilian police in the area of Travnik?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And was this after the conflict had started in Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 when the Serbs were attacking Muslims and Croats in various parts of

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Thank you, Witness.

24 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I -- at various times during the

25 direct, I'm going to refer to one or two maps. Exhibit number 1 is the

Page 6808

1 big map of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it's the only map in evidence which

2 contains all the locations that the witness is going to talk about today,

3 and -- although later in the examination, the Trial Chamber will find that

4 most of the places during the direct will be found in Exhibit number 2.

5 But perhaps just if we could -- and it's not as easy to do it through the

6 video-conference link, but I wanted to indicate with the witness and the

7 Trial Chamber the location of Travnik, which is not in the area that the

8 Trial Chamber has heard a great deal about.

9 Q. So, Witness, if Exhibit number 1 is there with you - it's the map

10 which Mr. Dubuisson has - I wonder if you take a pencil, place a circle

11 around the place called Travnik that you've just mentioned.

12 A. [Marks]

13 MR. STRINGER: And for the Trial Chamber's information - maybe I

14 could just speed it along - if you look at the vertical axis on this map

15 and the number "3" on the vertical axis, and then if you move across

16 horizontally to the "E" on the top, Travnik is located just west of Zenica

17 in Central Bosnia, in the area north and west of Sarajevo, at the

18 intersection roughly of the "3" and the "E" on the vertical and horizontal

19 axes.

20 Q. Witness, have you marked Travnik and Turbe?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. STRINGER: Thank you. Maybe -- Mr. President, in the map the

23 word appears -- big word appearing "Bosnia," for Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24 Travnik's located just under the "S" in "Bosnia." Maybe that would --

25 okay.

Page 6809

1 Q. Now, Witness, I just asked you about July of 1992, when you were

2 mobilised into the civilian police. Can you tell us, at about that time

3 and in the months that followed, did you attempt to leave

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina with your family?

5 A. On several occasions I tried to leave Bosnia-Herzegovina, because

6 I had no problems with going back to the Federal Republic of Germany and

7 considering that many, many years before the outbreak of hostilities I had

8 left to work there. However, when the aggression against

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina started, it was impossible for me to immediately --

10 that is, in the first several months, it was impossible for me to leave

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Witness, in March of 1993, were you able to get permission then to

13 leave and to go up to Germany?

14 A. I received permission in March 1993, and with this permission, I

15 received a legal travel document from the Ministry of Internal Affairs,

16 because without a travel document, I could not travel.

17 Q. And what was the purpose of this trip, then, to Germany in March

18 of 1993?

19 A. The first and primary reason for my departure was the fear for

20 myself and my own family, because I was facing the war for the first time

21 and the shooting and all that. And to be perfectly honest, I wanted to

22 prepare the ground to pull out my wife and my family also.

23 Q. Then did you travel to Germany on the 31st of March, 1993?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And did your wife and your son remain behind in Travnik at that

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Page 6811

1 time?

2 A. Yes, they did. However, they did stay in the area of Travnik;

3 that is, they were about 20 kilometres from the Travnik town.

4 Q. Then did you remain in Germany for approximately two months, until

5 the end of May 1993?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And then did you go to Split in Croatia on your way back home from

8 Germany?

9 A. I travelled between Zagreb, Split. That is correct.

10 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, again going back Exhibit number 1.

11 Q. And, Witness, I will ask you to go back to Exhibit number 1, and

12 if you could place a circle around the place called Split.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Perhaps we can then put that on the ELMO and ...

15 Witness, is Split a city that's located on the Adriatic coast in

16 the Republic of Croatia?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 Q. Witness, tell us what happened when you arrived in Split?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

21 request -- because you don't have the statement that we received, and

22 perhaps we shouldn't just keep giving the same explanation. I kind of

23 assume what the witness will say, but I see no relevance. I see no

24 connection. Perhaps my colleague is leading the witness. What is the

25 connection, Split and these things, with these two accused?

Page 6812

1 So owing to the time that we have - and we have been warned

2 several times - perhaps the Prosecutor can be advised to just skip over

3 everything that is not relevant and to focus on what could conceivably

4 concern these two accused. Otherwise, we are faced with a very long and

5 winding road from -- through the rugged terrain of Bosnia and Croatia, and

6 it has nothing to do with our clients.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that is a very constructive suggestion.

8 Mr. Stringer, could you lead this witness as soon as possible so

9 that we could arrive at the essential point of this case.

10 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President, I intend to do that. And with

11 perhaps a little bit of cooperation from my learned colleagues, and

12 perhaps the approval of the Trial Chamber, I could pose questions in a way

13 that would advance us more quickly. However, I must say - and really, I

14 couldn't put it better than Mr. Krsnik just put it - this witness

15 encountered a very long and winding road throughout Croatia and Bosnia,

16 and it is a story which, in part, does not relate directly to these two

17 accused, but it relates very directly, and in our view is very

18 relevant, to other important parts of the case such as the existence of a

19 campaign, widespread and systematic campaign, directed against Bosnian

20 Muslims throughout the region, as well as the involvement of the Republic

21 of Croatia and Croatian authorities. And so that is relevant.

22 It is, as I mentioned, expressly alleged in the paragraphs of the

23 indictment which I cited at the beginning of this afternoon's proceedings,

24 and so there is an interesting story which is relevant and which, in our

25 view, must be told; however, I agree that it is one that perhaps we might

Page 6813

1 be able to move through a little more quickly before we arrive to those

2 parts of the testimony which relate most directly to the accused

3 themselves.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

5 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Q. Now, Witness, let me just ask you, then, did you arrive in Split

7 on the 31st of May, 1993?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And were you also there, then, on the 1st of June, 1993?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And were you at the bus station with other Bosnian Muslims who

12 were trying to then get back into Bosnia from Croatia?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you tell us briefly, please -- although I know this is a

15 painful story for you, could you tell us briefly what happened to you and

16 other Bosnian Muslims who were at the bus station in Split on that day.

17 A. As I was waiting to get a ride to Bosnia by any means, along with

18 the others, either by bus or by getting a lift from either a humanitarian

19 convoy or UNHCR, I saw a large number of civilian policemen of the

20 Republic of Croatia who were checking documents, the documents of

21 civilians at the bus station and across from the bus station in the

22 Emona transit station. I felt no fear or trepidation, because I was a

23 civilian and I had proper travel documents on me with a German visa

24 stamped in it and so on. However --

25 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me ask you a couple of questions,

Page 6814

1 then, about that. Were you approached by some members of the Croatian

2 police?

3 A. That is correct. I was approached by members of the Croatian

4 police, and they asked me for my documents. And as I said, I gave it to

5 them without any fear or any anxiety because I knew that I was clean. I

6 gave them my travel document. They looked at it. They read out my name,

7 and they said, "You are a balija" --

8 Q. And --

9 A. -- "Come with us."

10 Q. Where did they take you?

11 A. They took us to the police station in Split, which was right at

12 the -- across from the station and across the railroad tracks and near the

13 ferry station Emona. There is a police station right there.

14 Q. And could you tell us briefly what transpired -- let me first ask

15 you first: Were there other Bosnian Muslims at the police station when

16 you arrived there?

17 A. There were many in the yard. There were women, men, children.

18 And there were a lot of them in the building itself, and I cannot give you

19 an exact number.

20 Q. And what happened to you when you were taken inside the police

21 station?

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not want to tire

24 you too much. We heard that this was Split and that this was the Republic

25 of Croatia, and we heard what the treatment was of this body of the

Page 6815

1 Republic of Croatia towards this witness. Again, my question is: What

2 does this have to do with the indictment and with my client? I have to

3 ask that question again.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, you promised us that you could get

5 over this part of the story as soon as possible so that we could get to

6 the Heliodrom.

7 MR. STRINGER: I'm doing my best, Mr. President. The Heliodrom is

8 at the end. I have been given two witnesses to lead this evidence, and if

9 I have to use every minute of it, over two hours - I'm sorry - to lead

10 this evidence, and I'll use every minute of it, over the objections of

11 counsel if I have to, and I'm going to try to move quickly. But if -- I'm

12 concerned about objections placing me in a position where we're not at the

13 Heliodrom by the end of the time that I have been given. If the counsel's

14 willing to allow me to lead this witness, to put to him leading questions

15 in order to move us more quickly along, then I will do it, but I assert

16 that all of this is all relevant to allegations which are in the

17 indictment, not all of which relate directly to his client. But if we

18 engage in a lengthy debate here while the clock is ticking, then it's

19 going to prevent the Prosecution from leading the evidence. It's an

20 attempt, perhaps, to do just that, but it's all relevant. And unless the

21 Trial Chamber expressly rules that it's not relevant and that it doesn't

22 want to hear this evidence -- this witness's evidence, then I will skip

23 portions of his story. But I would like to lead all of this, all of which

24 is relevant and which will result, at the end, in direct testimony about

25 the accused.

Page 6816

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will no longer

3 object. And whatever he -- the witness is going to stay in terms of

4 evidence, until he comes to the Heliodrom, will have nothing to do with

5 this case and with our client, and that is basically all I have to say.

6 Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, what if I say that before you come to the

8 Heliodrom that leading questions are allowed.

9 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE LIU: We really hope you could get over this part as soon as

11 possible.

12 MR. STRINGER: I will do my best, Mr. President. Certain aspects

13 of this witness's testimony are a bit difficult to do in leading

14 questions. If I could say, it's -- it's not a pleasant story, but I will

15 do my best.

16 Q. Witness, I'm going to -- I'll continue to ask you questions. I'm

17 sure that you've heard and that you understand the discussion that's taken

18 place here in the courtroom. So let me ask you, when you arrived in the

19 police station headquarters in Split, were you beaten by Croatian police?

20 Was your passport taken away from you, ripped up, and was all the money

21 that you had with you, some 16.000 German marks, also taken away from

22 you?

23 A. That is correct that I was beaten, mistreated without any reason,

24 as an animal, insulted me, took my money away, tore up my travel document

25 and told me, "You used to have it. Now you don't have it. Isn't that

Page 6817

1 clear?" And another policeman again hit me in the face, knocked me down,

2 and I lost consciousness, and I was covered in blood.

3 Q. Did they also take your personal property, your watch, your

4 suitcases, your gold necklace?

5 A. It is all correct. They took everything away from me, a golden

6 bracelet, a watch, personal effects, papers that I had, luggage,

7 everything.

8 Q. Now, were you then handcuffed and placed in a van along with

9 approximately other -- 14 other Muslim men?

10 A. That is correct. I was placed in handcuffs, and they loaded us on

11 the van, like a police van, with the other civilians and locked us up in

12 that van.

13 Q. And these other civilians, were these other Bosnian Muslim men who

14 were in Croatia for various reasons, who were also then residents or whose

15 families were residents of Bosnia?

16 A. Members of their families lived in Bosnia, and many of their

17 families also lived in Croatia. They worked in the concrete factory in

18 Split or in other towns. They would come and visit them. They lived with

19 them and so on.

20 Q. Now, after you were placed in this police van, were you and the

21 others driven for about four or five years to the

22 Croatia-Bosnia-Herzegovina border crossing at a place called Kamensko?

23 A. That is correct. They took us there without food or water, in a

24 small confined space. And to us it seemed like an eternity. And finally

25 they brought us to the Kamensko border crossing.

Page 6818

1 Q. And at the Kamensko border crossing, were you delivered by the

2 Croatian police officers to approximately 20 HVO military police,

3 soldiers, who were wearing white belts?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. And when you arrived then or when you were delivered to the HVO

6 military police, were you and the others then beaten for a couple of hours

7 at that location by the HVO military police?

8 A. That is correct. And moreover, we were beaten by civilians who

9 were ethnic Croats. And the policemen who allowed them to do that, this

10 was done by the civilians who simply found themselves at this border

11 crossing at Kamensko at this time.

12 Q. After that, did these HVO military police, did they place you and

13 the others in a van and take you to the town called Tomislavgrad?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. And is Tomislavgrad also known as Duvno?

16 A. That is the real name of Tomislavgrad. This is the one that

17 I'm -- have been familiar with for many years. However, later on this

18 town was given a new name, which is Tomislavgrad.

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, on Exhibit Number 1, the town is

20 called Tomislavgrad. On Exhibit Number 2, it's called Duvno.

21 Q. Witness, if you would take Exhibit Number 1, place a circle around

22 "Tomislavgrad." And while you're doing that, I'll ask you the next

23 question.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. Witness, when you arrived at Tomislavgrad, were you and the other

Page 6819

1 prisoners placed in an old building that was a former convent, and were

2 there already about 50 or 60 other prisoners there when you arrived?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. And were you guarded by HVO military police wearing white belts

5 during the time that you were at Tomislavgrad?

6 A. Yes, we were guarded by members of the HVO, of the police, that

7 is, while we were detained there.

8 Q. Now, were you and other prisoners, then, placed into a large room

9 which was divided into cages with metal, metal that's used for

10 construction purposes, into an improvised jail in this old building in

11 Tomislavgrad?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. And after you arrived at this location in Tomislavgrad, were you

14 and the others beaten by the military police who used iron bars and other

15 forms of instruments to beat you and the others?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

17 A. They beat us --

18 JUDGE LIU: Please wait.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for your benefit,

20 what he circled on the map is not the town that we were referring to, the

21 thing that we see on the map, just so that you have full information. In

22 other words, what witness has circled as the town that he was asked to

23 circle by the Prosecutor is not the town that was referred to.

24 JUDGE LIU: Let's have a look at that map again, please.

25 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President. If the map could be

Page 6820

1 placed on the ELMO, please.

2 Q. Witness, now we're seeing that you circled a place called Livno.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, but I cannot find Tomislavgrad, but it is close to Livno.

5 Q. Okay. Livno --

6 A. I don't know if it exists on this map.

7 Q. Were you in the town of Tomislavgrad or the municipality of

8 Tomislavgrad?

9 A. I was in the town of Tomislavgrad. And from what I knew, that was

10 an abandoned monastery or something like that. It was an old building.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I can move on.

12 Q. Witness, did you -- during the time that you spent at this

13 location in Tomislavgrad, were you placed in locations where other dead

14 persons were being kept?

15 A. On one occasion, I was carried to the attic of this building where

16 I saw a number of dead bodies of civilians. And on another occasion when

17 I was mistreated and beaten, without even asking me any questions, they

18 just cursed me and hurled insults at my family and the political

19 structures of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They took me outside under a large

20 tree, and under this tree, I saw several dead bodies of civilians lying

21 around.

22 Q. Witness, could you just tell us briefly how often you were beaten

23 there and what was your condition finally when you were taken away from

24 Tomislavgrad some 22 days later.

25 A. Believe me when I say that they came and beat me -- they beat

Page 6821

1 others, too. And they beat me every hour on the hour. And the

2 ill-treatment and battery and provocation could last 30, 40, 45 minutes,

3 up to one hour. I was bleeding; I was looking at the puddles of my

4 blood. And five, six, seven of them jumping off the table on me,

5 ill-treat me, beat me with rifle butts, with fists, with boots, with iron

6 rods, with batons. And I even begged them, "I beg you as friends, kill

7 me. I just can't bear it any more."

8 Q. Now, Witness, you mention that you were carried up to an attic.

9 Is that because you were not able to walk?

10 A. That is correct. I could not walk. I was all broken up. I could

11 not move. All the other prisoners were taken away somewhere - I don't

12 know where - so that I was left alone, and they came and carried me away

13 like a -- like a sack. I was all broken up. I was black and blue. And

14 so they left me in this attic. And as they put me down, I just stayed

15 there; that is, I couldn't turn either left or right. I was hungry. I

16 was emaciated. I was tired. I was in pain. I was in blood.

17 Q. You said that there were other dead bodies in that attic. How

18 long were you left in that attic?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, once again, a

21 question: What does it have to do with my client, and what does it have

22 to do with the indictment? Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, your question is too detailed, I

24 believe. You might skip all those questions and details until the Heliodrom,

25 which we are all interested in.

Page 6822

1 MR. STRINGER: Very well, Mr. President.

2 Q. Witness, then were you kept in this place in Tomislavgrad for 22

3 days and then transferred to Ljubuski?

4 A. That is right.

5 Q. Were you kept in a prison in Ljubuski?

6 A. Yes. They kept us in the prison.

7 Q. And at the prison in Ljubuski, did you find other prisoners there

8 from places such as Mostar and Stolac?

9 A. I came across many prisoners; not only from Mostar and Stolac but

10 also from surrounding places, towns such as Jablanica, Konjic, Bijele

11 Polje, and so on and so forth.

12 Q. I understand your condition at Ljubuski was so bad that they

13 expected you to die and that you were not taken out to perform labour like

14 the others because of your condition. Is that correct?

15 A. That is correct. They would take me, but I could not stand up. I

16 could not move. I was simply unable to make a single move, and I expected

17 to die any moment. I thought I wouldn't be able to put up with that pain

18 any longer.

19 Q. And, now, after 12 days at the Ljubuski prison, were you and some

20 others transferred to a place called Posusje?

21 A. That is correct. We were taken at night. We didn't know where we

22 were going or why. When we got there, they said, "Posusje." I mean, I

23 would have believed them even if they told me it was Milan, because I

24 was -- yes, I knew all those areas before of Herzegovina, but I was

25 semiconscious. I was barely aware of what was going on around me.

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Page 6824

1 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I'll just simply refer the Trial

2 Chamber to Exhibit 2, which has Posusje on it.

3 Q. Now, Witness, did you remain at the Posusje detention facility for

4 about nine days?

5 A. Yes, that is true.

6 Q. And were you and others beaten frequently, both day and night,

7 when you were at Posusje?

8 A. They beat us often both by day and by night, but I have to say

9 much, much less than in Tomislavgrad.

10 Q. Were -- the guards also at Posusje, were they members of the HVO

11 military police?

12 A. Yes. They all wore uniforms and white belts. So that was the HVO

13 police.

14 Q. And after nine days at Posusje, were you and some others then

15 taken to a different place in the town of Grude?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. And did you remain in Grude for about 18 days?

18 A. That is right.

19 Q. And during that time, were you kept in the cellar of an old house

20 on the outskirts of the town of Grude?

21 A. That is right.

22 Q. Witness, did you know why you were being moved around so

23 frequently among these different places?

24 A. No. I could not really understand why they were moving us around,

25 so I cannot say with any certainty. But from what I knew then and from

Page 6825

1 what I know now, they were hiding us from the International Red Cross from

2 Geneva, to avoid our registration, because if we were registered by the

3 Red Cross, then -- well, one knows that then prisoners have their rights,

4 that they may not be ill-treated or killed, they must be given food, and

5 so on and so forth. At least that is what I think. I'm not sure about

6 this.

7 Q. Now, at this place in Grude, were the guards regular HVO soldiers,

8 not military police?

9 A. That is so.

10 Q. And then after approximately 18 days at this house in Grude, then

11 were you taken to the Heliodrom?

12 A. Yes, that is right. They took us in a bus to the Heliodrom.

13 Q. Now, Witness, by my count, that would be approximately the very

14 beginning of August 1993. Does that sound right to you, the date of your

15 arrival in the Heliodrom?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Now, Witness, if you -- as best as you recall, can you tell us

18 what occurred when you arrived at the Heliodrom? What time of day was it

19 and what occurred when you arrived there?

20 A. It was around noon. It was daylight. Everybody got off the bus

21 except me because I could not move. So they took me, carried me, dragged

22 me, whatever you care to call it. There were a number of soldiers, a

23 number of HVO, lots of military policemen of the HVO with white belts, and

24 one spoke to us and told us what this was the central prison of

25 Herceg-Bosna, that its name was Heliodrom. And among other people there,

Page 6826

1 I saw Juka Prazina, with his escort. He was wearing black.

2 And they took me, asked me -- they asked, "What's the matter with

3 him?" I dared not say that I had been all beaten and battered in the

4 previous death camps, so that all I said was that I had been involved in a

5 traffic accident. Of course, they knew what was wrong with me. It was

6 just like that.

7 So they took me to a cellar, and then Juka said very loudly and

8 clearly, "No problem. We've got coffin for him. Quite broad. You know,

9 the one from Sarajevo." That's what he said. And in that cellar, I spent

10 a couple of hours leaning against a coffin in the cellar. It was very

11 dark, and it was terrible stench. I don't know how large was the cellar

12 or something. And some people were passing by. And I would every now and

13 then pass out and then recover. And one of the soldiers who were passing

14 by there, he saw me, he kicked me, and I cried out in pain. And then he

15 said, "Look, this one is alive, so take him out of there." And they took

16 me to the second floor of that building, and that was the so-called

17 central prison of Herceg-Bosna.

18 Q. Witness, let me ask you, were there any other coffins in this

19 cellar that you've described, other than the one that you were standing

20 by?

21 A. Well, I would say there were many of them. There could have been

22 10 or 12. I didn't count them. I didn't look around. As I said, they

23 carried me. They just threw me there. And since it was the cellar, it

24 was very murky. And I didn't try even to look or to count, and I didn't

25 see anything else.

Page 6827

1 Q. After you were taken upstairs to the second floor of that

2 building, can you tell us what sort of room you were placed in, how many

3 prisoners were in that area?

4 A. There was a big metal door -- door with metal bars on the second

5 floor with large locks. And you opened that door, and there was a passage

6 behind it, and there were three rooms there. I was in the first one to

7 the left. And there I found about 70, maybe 80, detainees. I was put --

8 thrown into a corner. There were no beds or chairs or tables or

9 anything. We were all there. And I was in the corner of that room, of

10 that area.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I would ask that the registrar

12 Mr. Dubuisson show the witness what has been marked as Exhibit 20.10.

13 It's a photograph.

14 Q. Witness, the registrar is going to show you a photograph, and I'm

15 is going to ask you if you can identify any of the buildings that are

16 shown in that photograph. If you see a building where you were kept,

17 place a circle around it, please.

18 A. [Marks]

19 MR. STRINGER: Could I ask the registrar to put that on the ELMO,

20 please.

21 Q. Witness, we're looking at the building that you've circled. Is

22 that what you've described as the Central Military Prison and the

23 Heliodrom?

24 A. Well, at least that is what they told us - I mean, members of the

25 Croat Defence Council and members of the military police of the Croat

Page 6828

1 Defence Council - when we arrived. Now, whether they meant this building,

2 that that building was the central prison, or whether the Heliodrom as

3 such was the central prison, I really can't say. But that is what they

4 said, that this was the central prison.

5 Q. Is this -- in any event, whatever its name is, is this the

6 building where you were held after you arrived at the Heliodrom?

7 A. That is the building in which I kept throughout the time I was at

8 the Heliodrom, and I never left that room or that building, nor did I go

9 anywhere. I was non-stop -- I could not move because I was beaten just

10 too badly, so that I spent there a certain period of time. That is, all

11 the time that I was at the Heliodrom, all I could see were those four

12 walls in that room on the second floor in that building.

13 Q. Witness, do you know approximately how many other prisoners were

14 held in that building?

15 A. I can say with certainty that in that room, there were between 70

16 and 80 prisoners. I was one of them. In the next room, there were just

17 as many, around 70 detainees. Indeed, the third one, there were again

18 around 70 people. That is at least what people talked about, the

19 detainees who could go out to go to the toilet, to the bathroom. And from

20 that room, one could enter those other two. But they could not get out of

21 this passage. They could not get past that huge locked door, metal door.

22 Q. Now, Witness, did the other prisoners remain in that room all day

23 with you when you were at the Heliodrom?

24 A. No. Other prisoners were taken at daybreak every morning to work,

25 to dig trenches, to carry things, to build some fortifications. They were

Page 6829

1 driven out every morning and came back in the evening. And as I could not

2 move and I was waiting to die, I thought I would succumb to my open

3 wounds, because I was non-stop in that one room. I could not move, and I

4 was non-stop in that room.

5 Q. Witness, do you know what are some of the locations where the

6 other prisoners worked when they were taken out of your room? What did

7 they tell you?

8 A. I know 100 percent when they came back in the evening tired,

9 hungry, and thirsty, and so on and so forth, some of them would say they

10 had worked in an area called Balinovac. Others said they worked on

11 Santiceva. I don't know what that is or where that is. Others said again

12 they were working near the department store. Others again, that they were

13 on Bulevar. That is what I remember them saying when they would come back

14 in the evening to that room.

15 Q. Witness, do you know who the prisoners were working for when they

16 were working outside the Heliodrom?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. Any

19 answer would be speculation, because we just learned that he never once

20 went out of the camp. So I do not think that any other kind of answer can

21 be expected. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we understand that it will be hearsay evidence,

23 and we'll evaluate this evidence at a later stage. We understand this

24 witness was in the cell all the day.

25 So you may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

Page 6830

1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. Witness, let me ask you this: Did you ever see anyone come to the

3 Heliodrom, into your building, into your cell to take prisoners out to

4 work?

5 A. Every morning, uniformed individuals came. They had white belts

6 of the Croat Defence Council, whether they were military police or just

7 soldiers, and they took them away to work every morning.

8 Q. And based on what you saw and what you heard, do you know which

9 units or which persons those prisoners were being taken to work for?

10 JUDGE CLARK: Well, he doesn't really know. He just knows what he

11 was told.

12 I was wondering, without offending the witness and hurting him -

13 he's living through a lot of pain - could we move him on to evidence that

14 affects the two accused? I think he's clearly suffering.

15 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President -- I'm sorry, Judge Clark. We

16 are at that point right now, and I will try to bring it to greater focus.

17 Q. Witness, you mentioned military police came to take prisoners

18 away. Did you see any other HVO personnel in your area, in your building

19 where you were being held in the Heliodrom?

20 A. Why, I did see soldiers. I saw many with or without white belts,

21 those who dropped in in that room either in the morning or in daytime or

22 in the evening.

23 Q. Did any commanders come or higher-level HVO personnel come into

24 your area in the Heliodrom?

25 A. With my own eyes, I saw on only two occasions Mr. Mladen Naletilic

Page 6831

1 in that room. He was called Tuta. I repeat, it was only on two occasions

2 that I saw him. And several times with soldiers and with those military

3 HVO policemen, I saw Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela. Also in that room I saw

4 Juka Prazina - they wouldn't stay long - and I saw other soldiers,

5 military policemen, and so on.

6 Q. Witness, let me ask you, if you can, to describe for us as best

7 you recall each of the times that you saw Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, in your

8 part of the Heliodrom. Can you describe for us on each of those occasions

9 who he was with and what occurred when he was present?

10 A. On one occasion, it was daytime. And as I say, I was alone in the

11 room. And very many of them came; I mean soldiers, uniformed individuals,

12 non-uniformed as well, a few of them. And they were practically at the

13 entrance into that room, next to the door where you go into it. And they

14 were talking amongst themselves. I could not hear what they were talking

15 about or what was the subject they were talking about.

16 And one of that group walked towards me, that is, moving towards a

17 completely different part of the room, towards the corner of that room,

18 and that one had an HVO uniform, and yelled at me and ordered me to stand

19 up. "Don't you see who has come here to this room?" And I said, "I am

20 sorry, sir. Please receive my apologies, but I cannot move. I cannot

21 stand up. I am not well," and so on and so forth. And then he really

22 started bellowing at me, that soldier or military policeman, and trying to

23 make me stand up. And I, like a dog, tried to support me with the two

24 hands, and I tried to hoist myself, but as I was about to stand up, he hit

25 me with his fist in the stomach, and I bled at the mouth again, and I fell

Page 6832

1 down again.

2 And all those others were standing in the corner and talking about

3 something. And that one presumably - I say one; only one who came and

4 ill-treated me and beat me - perhaps he wanted to show off front of the

5 others, to prove his valour, to prove what a tough guy he was, how he can

6 beat a man who cannot -- who is unable to move.

7 So I stayed there on the floor, and he moved away from me, and he

8 asked me once again why was I there. Oh, come on. Why am I there?

9 "Well, you locked me up." What does mean, "Why am there?"

10 And they left that room. They could have been there -- I mean all

11 of them there, 10, 15 minutes. I cannot say exactly, but they didn't stay

12 long.

13 Q. Witness, do you recall the names of any of the others persons who

14 were with Mladen Naletilic on that occasion?

15 A. I remember that Mr. Armin Pohara, Mr. Rusmir Agacevic, and others,

16 other soldiers, uniformed individuals, and so on and so forth.

17 Q. Now, when you said that soldier struck you in the chest, was

18 Mladen Naletilic in a position to have seen that happen?

19 A. He was in a position to see that, and I am quite sure that he did

20 see it, although he was at the other end of the room. And he was

21 surrounded -- there were several of them in a group. But he could see the

22 second -- the other end of the room where this one hit me and ill-treated

23 me. But there were many of them, as I said. They were standing and

24 talking. I don't know really what they were talking about.

25 Q. Now, Witness, you mentioned that you saw Mladen Naletilic on two

Page 6833

1 occasions in the Heliodrom. You've just described one occasion. Let me

2 ask you first: Have you just described for us the first time that you saw

3 him?

4 A. Yes, that was the first time, when I saw him.

5 Q. Do you know approximately how long after your arrival in the

6 Heliodrom this first encounter with Tuta took place?

7 A. Well, it could be perhaps 15, 20 days later. I can't really say

8 exactly, but thereabouts.

9 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I think that it may be time for a

10 break.

11 JUDGE LIU: We'll break for 90 minutes. We'll resume at 8.00 this

12 evening. We have been advised if we have two accused, when we break for

13 supper, that should be 90 minutes. We'll resume at 8.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 6.29 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 8.00 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

17 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Witness, can you hear me well?

19 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we're still having some difficulties

20 with --

21 JUDGE LIU: Will you please --

22 MR. STRINGER: -- the devices over here.

23 JUDGE LIU: Will you please try again.

24 MR. STRINGER:

25 Q. Witness, can you hear me now?

Page 6834

1 A. I can hear you.

2 Q. Witness, before the break, you described for us an encounter that

3 you had with Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, in the Heliodrom.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And also before the break, you said that in fact you had two

6 encounters or there were two times when you saw Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, in

7 the Heliodrom. So my question to you now is: Could you please describe

8 for us the second encounter that you had with Tuta in the Heliodrom, who

9 was present, as best as you recall, and what happened on that occasion?

10 A. The second time when I saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, at the

11 Heliodrom, again in the same room where I continued to stay, this was in

12 the evening, it was night-time, and a lot of soldiers -- a lot of HVO

13 soldiers entered and the military policemen with white belts. I cannot

14 say the exact number. It could have been approximately 15. And Juka

15 Prazina was among them.

16 On that occasion, I saw Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Vinko Martinovic,

17 Stela. They were at the door to that room. They were talking among

18 themselves. They were saying something. I did not hear at all what they

19 were saying because I was on the other end of the room.

20 At one point, someone in the entourage of one of the soldiers, one

21 of the men who were wearing HVO uniforms, a soldier near the door, hit a

22 young man, a civilian, who was nearby. Another one approached him, and

23 then they were shouting at him something. They were cursing him. They

24 were mentioning Prozor. He was either from Prozor or near Prozor.

25 And Juka Prazina was there with his dog, a German shepherd, and

Page 6835

1 there was a great commotion there. I saw that this young man was

2 bleeding. He was moaning. He was crying. At one point, Juka Prazina let

3 his German shepherd dog loose. He turned him loose, and the dog assailed

4 the young man, but he was pulled out of the room, and I don't know what

5 happened after that.

6 Q. Witness, did this event take place in the room which you've

7 described in which you were held during the time that you spent at the

8 Heliodrom?

9 A. That is correct, because I want to mention I was -- throughout

10 this time, I was in one and the same room.

11 Q. And, Witness, can you tell us, please, the positions of Tuta and

12 Stela, that is, Martinovic and Naletilic? Where were they located? What

13 was their position when this incident occurred with the one prisoner from

14 Prozor?

15 A. They were in a group, all of them together. And Mr. Naletilic did

16 not beat the young man, nor did Mr. Martinovic beat or touch that young

17 man, but they were in that same group of 13 to 15 soldiers. You see what

18 I mean? There was a lot of people there, and as I mentioned, there were

19 about 70 prisoners in the room. Everybody was there in a group near the

20 door just as you entered the room.

21 Q. Did you observe whether either Mr. Naletilic or Mr. Martinovic

22 took any steps to stop the mistreatment of that young man from Prozor?

23 A. I did not see that they had done anything to either -- to stop.

24 Maybe they were talking about it among themselves. Maybe they said,

25 "Don't do it any more." I was at least 12 to 15 metres away. I was at

Page 6836

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Page 6837

1 the very corner of it. It was a long room. But as I said, I did not see

2 that anyone took any steps to defend the man, neither the two of them nor

3 anyone else.

4 Two maybe up to three soldiers attacked this young man. I don't

5 know what they were doing and why they were talking among themselves. So

6 I cannot say what I don't know.

7 Q. Now, during those two times when you saw Mr. Naletilic in the

8 Heliodrom, can you describe for us, please, his appearance, how he looked,

9 how he was dressed on those occasions.

10 A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform, and I want to point out that

11 I was in a prone position, so I was looking from that vantage point. He

12 was not a very tall man. He had eyeglasses, beard. And that's all.

13 Q. Do you recall the colour of his hair, the colour of his beard?

14 A. It was kind of greyish, greying.

15 Q. Witness, you said that -- first, let me ask you this: Do you know

16 or did you learn during the time you were at the Heliodrom who the

17 commander of the Heliodrom facility was? Who was in charge of that place?

18 A. Let me tell you, personally I do not know who was the commander in

19 the Heliodrom camp, nor did I hear about who the commander was. The only

20 thing I can say is this: That the other prisoners who were from

21 Herzegovina, Mostar, Jablanica, Konjic, and so on, that they were saying

22 as concerns certain soldiers and certain HVO men in uniform and the

23 military police, when they entered countless of times to the rooms, day or

24 night, those who were in the room with me were saying, "Well, these are

25 the Tuta's men," and occasionally they would say, "These are the Stela's

Page 6838

1 men," that is, that ones belonged to Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and the

2 others to Vinko Martinovic, Stela.

3 However, I repeat - and I stand by it - I personally do not know.

4 But this is what the men from Herzegovina were saying. They were

5 whispering about it. They were saying, "These belong to this one, and

6 those belong to that one." I personally do not know. I did not see, nor

7 do I know who the commander of the Heliodrom camp was.

8 Q. Now, Witness, also before the break you testified, I believe, that

9 you saw Vinko Martinovic present in the Heliodrom on other occasions. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. Can you tell us --

13 A. I saw him several --

14 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead and complete your answer if I interrupted

15 you. How many times did you see him in the Heliodrom?

16 A. I saw him several times at the Heliodrom; that means in the room

17 where I was staying. On all those occasions, he would come in just

18 briefly with his escorts, entourage. I don't know how to describe it.

19 And he would stay there very briefly in the room where I was staying. I

20 don't know what they were saying, what they were talking about, as they

21 had just came in, and then they would go out.

22 On one occasion when I was alone in the room during the day - and

23 as I said, I was gravely ill - a prisoner came, a prisoner who apparently

24 had been at the Heliodrom for six or seven months. That means a lot

25 longer than I was. And I heard that he was fixing the cars or something

Page 6839

1 like that for these soldiers. He was tall and well built. He saw me

2 bleeding from my mouth and my nose. Then he took me by my arms and by

3 force took me to another room and asked that the door be unlocked. And he

4 took me to some kind of an improvised infirmary in the hope that a

5 physician would help me.

6 There was a physician there in a white coat. He was dark-haired

7 man. When I entered that room with him, I saw four or five soldiers with

8 white belts and camouflage uniforms. They said, what were we doing

9 there? What were we requesting? We asked the doctor. And the doctor

10 said that I was ill and that I needed help. And one of the soldiers in

11 white belt cursed my mother, even though he saw me for the first time in

12 his life at that time. And he said, "Well, you came here to get medical

13 treatment in Herceg-Bosna," and he hit me and kicked me in the stomach and

14 head. And there was another one also in camouflage uniform, and he also

15 jumped on me and beat me and knocked me down. I don't know their names.

16 I simply do not know what they are. And there, I saw Vinko Martinovic,

17 Stela, sitting there with them.

18 Q. Now, a few moments ago you described one encounter which you had

19 with Mladen Naletilic and others, including Vinko Martinovic, that he was

20 present. I wanted to ask you now about other times when you saw Vinko

21 Martinovic in the Heliodrom. And particularly, if you could just give us

22 a rough idea how many other times you saw him when you were a prisoner at

23 the Heliodrom.

24 A. In my estimate, I believe I saw him about five or six times in

25 total. I want to point out, on several occasions, he came with some

Page 6840

1 soldiers in HVO uniform, in the room. They were, again, talking

2 something, but I don't know what they were talking about. Perhaps they

3 stayed five to ten minutes in the room, and then they would leave.

4 A moment ago I said when this man almost forcibly dragged me by my

5 arms and when he took me to this improvised infirmary in the hope that a

6 physician would help me, on that occasion I saw Mr. Vinko Martinovic,

7 Stela, with another four, five, or six soldiers in this small room, in

8 this improvised infirmary. And they were talking there. When I entered

9 this room with this prisoner who had brought me there in the hope that a

10 physician would help me, because I was bleeding from my mouth and my nose,

11 one of the uniform soldiers with white belts jumped up and said -- cursed

12 my mother. He insulted me and he said, "You came here to Herceg-Bosna to

13 seek medical treatment." He punched me and kicked me in the face and

14 stomach. And other soldiers jumped over, and they knocked me down on the

15 floor. Mr. Vinko Martinovic saw this, but he himself did not hit me, nor

16 did he approach me. I stayed in that room for perhaps 10, 15 minutes.

17 Q. Witness --

18 A. Yes?

19 Q. -- my next question, then, was: How did you know that this person

20 you're calling Vinko Martinovic, Stela, how do you know that in fact that

21 was who this person was? How did you know it was Stela?

22 A. When he -- when he had come to the room on previous occasions,

23 previous days, the men from Herzegovina who were my fellow prisoners in

24 the room said, "That is Stela. That is Martinovic." Someone said, "This

25 is Vinko Martinovic." Another one would say, "This is Stela."

Page 6841

1 So on several occasions when he was coming to the room, those men

2 who were there with me in the room, these were men from Herzegovina who

3 apparently knew him quite well, and they told me. I myself had never seen

4 this man, Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela, before that. I had never heard of

5 him, nor had I had any close encounters or dealings with before that, so

6 I'm saying what the other prisoners who were there in this one and the

7 same room were saying.

8 Q. Now, were there times when soldiers would come -- that other

9 soldiers would come - not Stela personally, but that other soldiers would

10 come - to take prisoners for forced labour?

11 A. There were many soldiers in camouflage uniform and white belts who

12 came regularly every morning and were taking prisoners to forced labour.

13 I want to point out that they would come every day, and in the evening

14 these men would come back. However, also in the evenings, the man in

15 uniform again would come and would be taking prisoners at night, 9.00,

16 10.00, 11.00, even midnight, even one after midnight, would take two or

17 three, sometimes one of them. Why they were taking them, where they were

18 taking them, that I don't know. I had no knowledge of that, but I know

19 100 per cent when, at the break of dawn, four, five, or six would come.

20 "Come on. Get out," they would say quickly, and they would just come

21 out. And as I said, I always stayed alone in that room, behind.

22 Q. Witness, how long did you then remain a prisoner at the Heliodrom

23 complex?

24 A. I stayed exactly 45 days, unfortunately.

25 Q. And could you just briefly describe then where you were taken when

Page 6842

1 you left the Heliodrom.

2 A. One night late at night, they were taking out prisoners from the

3 room and apparently from other rooms. There were a lot of soldiers at

4 that time. It was the largest number of soldiers and uniformed policemen

5 that I saw that night.

6 I was taken, carried. I could not straighten up. I was bent over

7 almost to the ground, and the other prisoners told the soldiers that they

8 needed to help me down some staircase to -- not the main entrance to the

9 building where we had been -- where we had entered when we were first

10 brought into the Heliodrom but another entrance. We saw a lot of small

11 buses like mini-buses and vans, and we were all made to board those

12 mini-buses. And then they drove us a long time, through the night.

13 And at one point, these buses stopped, and we were transferred to

14 large buses, coaches. We were told that those large buses could not

15 negotiate the switchbacks that apparently we had been going on previously,

16 so they used those small buses to get there.

17 We were eventually brought to the mechanical engineering school,

18 and there were some sports fields behind it, and that's where we were

19 brought. And there were a lot of women and children and a lot of

20 civilians there, and there was a lot of screaming and yelling. So we were

21 brought there in this plateau in front of the mechanical engineering

22 school. Again, I heard that from somebody else. Had they told me that

23 this was a soccer field, I would have accepted that, because I had never

24 been to Mostar before, and I did not know these places, the school of

25 mechanical engineering or any other places.

Page 6843

1 Q. Now, Witness, at this location, the school of mechanical

2 engineering, did you join about 300 other Muslims in that location, and

3 then were you all put on buses at that location and moved out to a

4 different place?

5 A. That is correct. Two hours later, in this sports field or the

6 plateau at the school of mechanical engineering, we were placed on the

7 buses. And I personally saw Mr. Juka Prazina there, who had come there,

8 and he was telling everybody, "Don't worry. Everything's going to be all

9 right. I will escort you." I heard him talk to the drivers, giving them

10 some kind of instructions.

11 But we were placed on these buses, and again they drove us for a

12 long, long time without food or water. I could not sit in a passenger

13 seat, but rather, I lay on the floor. And after - I can't say exactly -

14 six, seven, eight hours, they brought us to the city of Sibenik, to the

15 port there. We arrived at the port there.

16 Q. Witness --

17 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I can inform the Trial Chamber,

18 Sibenik is on the Adriatic coast of Croatia. It is not found on

19 Exhibit 2. It is found on Exhibit 1.

20 Q. Witness, let me go back to asking you a series of questions for

21 the remainder of your testimony in the same manner in which we were

22 working through some of the earliest part of your testimony.

23 When you and the others arrived at Sibenik in Croatia, were you

24 met by Croatian police and also HVO military police?

25 A. That is correct. We were met at the port in the Sibenik -- in the

Page 6844

1 port of Sibenik. There were a lot of them. I can't give you a number but

2 over 50 of them. There was a lot of civilians, too, the civilian

3 population, men, women, who offered us food, some biscuits and juice. And

4 we were allowed to take that; we were not forbidden by either the Croatian

5 police or the HVO. Some people took some of these offerings. Some washed

6 up. And I will never forget that these civilians in the city of Sibenik

7 met us in a brotherly way, in a friendly way, and offered us these

8 comforts in food and drinks.

9 Q. And Witness, then, were you and the others who travelled with you

10 down from Mostar, were you put on a ferry and taken out to a place called

11 Obonjan island?

12 A. That is correct. They put us all on a large ferry and took us to

13 an island, which is called Obonjan. Again, I point out, this is what they

14 said that it is called. I had never been before. This is what they were

15 saying, Obonjan. Fine, it's Obonjan then. We were all brought there

16 non-stop. The civilian police was there, and the HVO police were also

17 there. We were all brought to this island, and there we found, in my

18 estimate, about 1.000 civilians, men, women, children, the elderly, and so

19 on.

20 Q. And, Witness, it's my understanding that you personally spent a

21 little over one month on Obonjan island. Is that correct?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. And during that time, you and the other persons who were there

24 were sleeping in tents on this island?

25 A. That is correct. We slept in tents on the island.

Page 6845

1 Q. And at some time after your arrival, then, representatives of the

2 UNHCR, the High Commissioner for Refugees, and the International Red Cross

3 arrived along with a representative from the Bosnian embassy in Zagreb,

4 and they arranged for your transfer and the transfer of others from that

5 location to Split, and then on to Istanbul in Turkey; is that correct?

6 A. That is correct. Everything you said is correct, and that's how

7 it was.

8 Q. And you arrived in Istanbul sometime during October 1993, and you

9 remained in Turkey for approximately 10 to 12 months receiving medical

10 treatment for the injuries that you had received; is that correct?

11 A. That is correct. The treatment was long and arduous. I took a

12 lot of medications. I was bedridden for a long time. I received a lot of

13 injection. Also, all my teeth had been knocked out. My ribs had been

14 broken, the left shoulder, the right leg also. And like others, I

15 received adequate treatment there and medical care and so on and so forth.

16 Q. And, Witness, throughout this entire time of your being a prisoner

17 in these many locations, did you have any contact with your wife and your

18 son? Did they have any idea what had happened to you during all that

19 time?

20 A. They had no idea about it, nor did they know anything about my

21 whereabouts or what was happening to me. Also, I assert that I, myself,

22 did not know what was going on with my wife and my only son. And again,

23 as I said, throughout this time, we had no access to the media, the

24 television, radio, or newspapers, nor did I have any other avenue to find

25 out what was going on with my family.

Page 6846

1 Q. And, Witness, I understand that then you were reunited in Travnik

2 with your family in August of 1994 and then you returned to -- you went to

3 Italy in 1996, where you again underwent medical treatment for your

4 injuries. Is that correct?

5 A. That is correct. I did not go back to Travnik exactly but to the

6 area of Travnik. And for a while, I was there. However, as my physical

7 condition and my mental condition worsened, because I had lost over

8 22 kilogrammes of my body weight in these death camps and my condition

9 deteriorated, and in 1996, under auspices of a humanitarian organisation,

10 I went for medical treatment in Italy.

11 Q. And, Witness, my last question to you: During the entire time

12 that you were in these various locations being held as a prisoner, did

13 anyone ever inform you why you had been arrested or why you were being

14 held there?

15 A. I was never informed why I had been arrested, why I had been kept

16 in detention, and why had they so brutally destroyed my life. But I also

17 wish to mention that during this ill-treatment, battery, and all the

18 encounters and everything that happened during my stay in those camps, I

19 can say honestly, because that is something that I could see, that all

20 those soldiers, those military policemen, all those uniformed individuals

21 of the HVO kept saying that my brothers or parents or friends or

22 neighbours in Central Bosnia were beating and slaughtering and persecuting

23 Croats in Central Bosnia. And I realised they were taking it out on us

24 only because we were from Central Bosnia and some others who came from

25 other parts of Bosnia. But whatever the case, those soldiers who beat me

Page 6847

1 and maltreated me, who broke my body, they cursed my Muslim mother, Muslim

2 children, the president, Alija Izetbegovic, the faith, the ethnicity, and

3 that is what I can say about it.

4 Q. Thank you, Witness.

5 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.

7 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Before you

8 start, I have to remind you that this witness is also a victim, so do put

9 your question in a decent way and in a grace manner; otherwise, we'll stop

10 you. You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Somehow, I

12 must say I always feel somewhat embarrassed when I am warned of things of

13 which I do not think one needs to warn anyone. But now you prompt me to

14 tell you which is my position in this cross-examination, and especially in

15 view of the warning the other day by Judge Clark, so that I will say

16 immediately that in this cross-examination, the Defence will check all of

17 the allegations heard during the direct examination on the basis of the

18 statements and some other documents which we were given today. And the

19 Defence, they are to put it to the witness that he has not been to -- that

20 he was not in a place that he says he was, and the Defence will try,

21 because of the investigative work that we have done, that we have never

22 found him on any list, unlike others. And I shall, therefore, try during

23 this cross-examination to show this Chamber perhaps a different picture of

24 this witness.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

Page 6848

1 Q. [Interpretation] And my first question will be -- and this time, I

2 will start - that may come as a surprise - from the end of the

3 examination-in-chief. And I will ask you, Witness -- I'm sorry, I forgot

4 to introduce myself. I am counsel for Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and I

5 will ask you some questions. And I always do my best to make them as

6 concise as possible in order to elicit the shortest answers and as

7 complete as possible.

8 So, Witness, will you please listen carefully to what I ask you,

9 and bear in mind that we speak the same language, and therefore, make a

10 break -- only after you have heard my question in full, only then start

11 answering, in order to avoid speaking over one another, because in that

12 case, the interpreters cannot do their job. Thank you for your

13 cooperation.

14 Witness UU, isn't -- wasn't the island of ^ Obonjan a refugee camp

15 for all inhabitants, and in particular for Bosniaks who had fled when the

16 war raged to that refugee camp where the Republic of Croatia provided the

17 necessary care for them?

18 A. Are you expecting an answer from me?

19 Q. Yes, please.

20 A. Perhaps for many people it may have been a refugee camp in which

21 the Republic of Croatia offered all the necessary care, but that was not

22 my case, because I and others were non-stop supervised by the police,

23 uniformed and civilian police. And also, why didn't they let me, me and

24 those others, to leave this rock? Because we had a way to go. Why were

25 they kept under surveillance? And we were not allowed to move anywhere,

Page 6849

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13 English transcripts.

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25

Page 6850

1 to go anywhere from that camp.

2 Q. And how many days did you spend in that refugee camp?

3 A. In that refugee camp, I spent about a month.

4 Q. And from that refugee camp or settlement, or whatever you care to

5 call it, weren't you allowed to go anywhere you wanted from that camp?

6 A. Throughout that time, we were not allowed to go where we wanted,

7 but later on, thanks to the UNHCR, and the pressure of the International

8 Red Cross, the UNHCR, and other institutions, it was only then that we

9 were allowed to leave, and that is when we were transferred to Turkey.

10 Q. And when did the International Red Cross come there? I mean, when

11 did you see them?

12 A. What I'm saying is that I saw representatives of the UNHCR, and

13 other representatives of the International Red Cross, and a representative

14 of the embassy - I mean, Bosnian - from Zagreb. They came there after I

15 had been there for about a month, I say. They took pictures of us. They

16 made sort of collective passports, collective travel documents, and took

17 our particulars, and it was then that we left.

18 Q. And tell me, please, when exactly did you leave for Turkey, and

19 how long exactly did you stay in Turkey?

20 A. I went to -- I and others went to Turkey in November 1993, and I

21 stayed in Turkey for about a year.

22 Q. So you returned in November 1994 to Bosnia?

23 A. No. To Bosnia I returned in August 1994. But I said that it was

24 about a year.

25 Q. Witness, this is eight months, and there's quite a difference

Page 6851

1 between eight months and a year. But it doesn't matter right now.

2 You say that you spent 30 days on Obonjan. That is what you told

3 us a moment ago. If you arrived there on the 1st of September and if you

4 spent 45 days at the Heliodrom, then it was the 15th of September. That

5 means that you spent more than two and a half months at Obonjan. I think

6 these are significant differences.

7 Do you remember those dates?

8 A. It is difficult for me to remember the dates now, and it was

9 difficult for me then. What I'm saying is I was there for about a month.

10 I was very severely ill, and I did not have a --

11 Q. Witness, can we agree that you said today that you -- that you

12 were at the Heliodrom for 45 days?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Now, if you got there on the 1st of August, then it was on the

15 15th of September that you set off to the refugee camp. And if you were a

16 month at Obonjan, then it is the 15th of October. And you told us a

17 moment ago that it was late November.

18 A. No, no. I did not say it was late November. I said November.

19 But it is also possible that we left in late October. So I'm very sorry.

20 Really, I apologise for five or ten days. I didn't keep a diary; I wasn't

21 allowed to, and I wouldn't have been able to.

22 Q. Very well. And tell me, when were you arrested in Split?

23 A. On the 1st of June, 1993, precisely.

24 Q. In all your statements it says the 31st of May. But it doesn't

25 matter.

Page 6852

1 Tell me, do you remember a letter which you wrote to the Minister

2 of the Interior in 1996, that is, His Excellency, the Minister of the

3 Interior -- of the Ministry of the Interior, the Federation of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, Mr. Avdo Habib? Do you remember writing him a letter?

5 A. I do.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe you have that

7 letter that -- if not, then, my learned friend -- I do not have any more

8 copies. Could Their Honours also be given the copies of that letter?

9 There is also a translation into English. You were so kind enough to give

10 them to us today. It was very kind of you.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately the interpreters do not have

12 copies of these documents.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I have questions to ask about this

14 letter, and I should like Their Honours to know what this is all about.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, the letter that counsel is referring

16 to, we did provide it to the Defence; however, I told or I informed

17 Mr. Meek at the time that we were providing it out of an abundance of

18 caution and that I had no intention of using it during the direct

19 examination and that if they intended to use it themselves, they needed to

20 make the necessary arrangements, so I have only two copies with me.

21 I suppose we could make copies if it would assist.

22 MR. KRSNIK: We have three; one here and your two.

23 MR. STRINGER: Well, I'd like to have one also.

24 JUDGE LIU: I wonder if the witness has one or not.

25 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. Again, just being careful, we

Page 6853

1 faxed it to Mr. Dubuisson today, so he does have it.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please also have copies

3 of the document.

4 JUDGE LIU: We better copy it and distribute it.

5 Well, Mr. Krsnik, we believe it is not the first day for this

6 trial. You must know that if you want to use any document, please make

7 copies beforehand.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I

9 received it -- and I am really grateful to my learned friend. I

10 appreciate it. I appreciate his giving it to me. But I received it

11 before the hearing started. I looked at it during the break, and I saw

12 some very interesting things in it. There is a very important question

13 here for the Defence. You will hear what it is about in no time at all.

14 But since my learned friend has given it to us, then I thought that

15 everybody had been supplied with this document. Perhaps this was a

16 misunderstanding between me and my learned friends.

17 JUDGE LIU: We believe it is your responsibility to have those

18 documents copied and furnished to everybody in this courtroom because you

19 are using this document, not the Prosecutor.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm sorry, and I

21 really apologise. But my question is: When? It was ten minutes before

22 the hearing. And I went through it during the break, so I didn't have

23 time to do that. And we have to remember that we started at 5.00; now

24 it's 9.00 -- no, no, I'm not trying to defend myself. I'm not trying to

25 defend myself. Now we have this whole story about a letter. All I wanted

Page 6854

1 to do is read a sentence and the witness to answer me. If that is a

2 problem --

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, my only observation is we had quite

5 a lengthy break in which ten copies could easily have been made. It is a

6 document which counsel obviously decided he wanted to use. And his

7 co-counsel was informed that we were simply providing it out of an

8 abundance of caution, and that if they wanted to do anything with it, they

9 would have to make the necessary copies or arrangements. I don't have

10 anything more to add.

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, if that happens again, we will certainly

12 bar you from using any documents which you did not prepare an extra copy

13 for us, because it takes us a lot of time in this courtroom. And today,

14 we have to sit very late, as you understand.

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, could I suggest, perhaps, there's

16 another area that counsel could move on to, and then we could come back to

17 this point when the copies are distributed.

18 JUDGE LIU: Can you? You may ask other questions.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Of course, Your

20 Honours.

21 Q. Please be so kind and tell us if the Red Cross ever came to the

22 Heliodrom, the International Committee of the Red Cross.

23 A. Yes, the International Red Cross visited the Heliodrom on a number

24 of occasions.

25 Q. And did you see them?

Page 6855

1 A. Once or twice they came to the room in which I was. But all the

2 prisoners crowded towards the door, towards them, so that they rushed to

3 meet them. And as I was not able to move, I could not stand up, approach

4 them, and try to push my way through those 70 or so prisoners in that

5 room.

6 Q. And only because of that, you mean they simply could not see you;

7 is that what you are saying?

8 A. Well, they could see all 70 of us in that room.

9 Q. Then why didn't they register you?

10 A. They did not register us because the military policemen with white

11 belts pushed them out, and they were also -- they were also wearing

12 uniforms, and they were pushing away the representatives of the

13 International Red Cross. They would be there for 10, 15, maybe 20

14 minutes. So some next to them were maybe registered, but that is all.

15 Q. When was that when the Red Cross came? Was it in daytime or in

16 the evening or at night?

17 A. Once they came in daytime. Once it was late afternoon, as far as

18 I can remember. It was afternoon sometime.

19 Q. And you say daytime. Was it always like that, lots of people in

20 your room? Didn't they go -- you told us today how they went to work

21 daily.

22 A. I did not say 100 percent, that 100 percent of them went every

23 day. I did not say that.

24 Q. You mean that you were not registered because the Red Cross was

25 forced out of your room? Are you saying that somebody dared push out the

Page 6856

1 International Red Cross?

2 A. That is quite true, even worse. They were tearing up the

3 documents of those who had been registered. Soldiers sometimes tore up

4 even that. Now, if they could tear up such documents and drive them out,

5 because had they been afraid of the Red Cross, they wouldn't have kept us

6 under lock.

7 Q. Today, you said -- and I hope to repeat. Did you personally see

8 those registration papers issued by the International Red Cross torn up?

9 A. I did not see it, but other detainees said, "He got mine and tore

10 it, and he was about to tear my arm off, too."

11 Q. But today you said you didn't know who was the Heliodrom

12 commander.

13 A. That, I do not know.

14 Q. That is what you said today when asked by my learned friend.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The witness and the counsel are speaking at the

16 same time.

17 Q. I will now ask Mr. Dubuisson --

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, you give difficult times to the

19 interpreter. Wait until we hear the answer from this witness.

20 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] In the beginning, you were doing

21 very fine. We could follow you.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I will now ask Mr. Dubuisson to give you the statement that you

24 made to the investigators of this Tribunal. So will you please take it.

25 Witness UU, will you please look at page 7, third passage, last

Page 6857

1 sentence. You say -- in it, you stated to The Hague investigators the

2 following: "During that period of time, Aleksovski was the commander of

3 the Heliodrom." And you say, "Other detainees told me that Zlatko

4 Aleksovski" - and now you are giving the full name, the first and the last

5 name - "was not in command of the Heliodrom in the very beginning and that

6 he came later."

7 Then the next sentence:

8 "We were visited by ICRC representatives in August 1993. Three

9 of them came to our room to register us. They managed to register about

10 15 to 20 detainees, and then Zlatko Aleksovski, together with four or five

11 military policemen, threw them out of the room."

12 In your statement which you gave to the investigators and what you

13 told us today is complete variance. Besides, here the name of the

14 commander is mentioned three times, and his full name, and you point at

15 him as the culprit for the Red Cross's failure to register you.

16 A. Excuse me. I never met Mr. Aleksovski, nor did I see him;

17 however, all that I said in my statement I continue to say under full

18 responsibility that that is what I heard from other detainees. I am not

19 sure about anything, nor did I have any knowledge, nor did I know who the

20 commander was. It was thought that the detainees talked among themselves,

21 now they say this, now they said that, and I didn't attach much attention

22 to that. I say to this day that I do not know who that was, bearing in

23 mind that I was in a very poor state and that I was fainting often.

24 Q. Witness UU, who was in the room when you were taken to the

25 doctor? Was that the person whom you mentioned to the Prosecutor today

Page 6858

1 when you told us about this time when you were taken to the doctor?

2 A. Nobody was in the room. A detainee from another room came, and he

3 got me by my trunk at my shoulders and practically drew me with him to the

4 doctor in that makeshift infirmary.

5 Q. And who else was there in that makeshift infirmary, apart from the

6 doctor and yourself?

7 A. There were four or five uniformed individuals. Some had military

8 belts, white, and one of them was Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela.

9 Q. Witness, please be so kind now as to read the third passage. It

10 begins on the same page. And see how you describe it to The Hague

11 investigators.

12 "The doctor told me to try to stand upright, straight, or to

13 touch the floor with my hands. I told him that I was not able to do

14 that. Then this soldier started beating me. Aleksovski did not say or do

15 anything. The doctor was laughing all the time. I think that Aleksovski

16 enjoyed the scene."

17 So my first question is: What is the doctor's name, if you know

18 it?

19 A. I cannot say exactly what the name of that physician was.

20 However, I can say --

21 Q. Excuse me, please.

22 A. But I can tell you that he was at the hospital in Bijeli Brijeg.

23 Q. So you did not know then what the doctor's name was, nor do you

24 know that today?

25 A. I may have known, but it is possible I have forgotten it.

Page 6859

1 Q. Well, this is what I am asking you, because two lines above that

2 you give the name the doctor. This is: "He carried me to the doctor,

3 whose name was Djeko."

4 A. This is what I heard him being called, but that could have been a

5 nickname. I don't know.

6 Q. And as far as Vinko Martinovic is concerned, there's no "V" or

7 "M." There's no initials, let alone full name of him.

8 Will you please read that whole page, if it's not too difficult.

9 You'll see --

10 A. It's not difficult for me to read it.

11 Q. You'll see that you never mentioned him. You never mentioned

12 anyone except Aleksovski, and this is the fifth time that you mentioned

13 him as a person who was there, who was in charge, and was very close to

14 you -- in close proximity to you.

15 How did he look at all, this Mr. Aleksovski?

16 A. Excuse me. When I came to the infirmary to see the doctor, the

17 person was well built, built up, big muscles, I think that it is the same

18 person who had come to the room previously of whom the fellow prisoners

19 who were there with me said that it was Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela.

20 Q. Very well, sir. But, sir, you never mentioned him during any of

21 the events that you described here. No one except for Mr. Aleksovski, in

22 fact, did you mention. That is on the 17th or 18th of September, 1997.

23 Was your memory better in 1997, or is it better now?

24 A. Please, if in 1997 no one asked me or -- how shall I put it? If

25 nobody inquired -- excuse me, but you have to realise that I was ill and

Page 6860

1 that I could not -- that I cannot recall all the details.

2 Q. But tell me, why did you not mention Mr. Aleksovski today

3 regarding these events? That's number one. In fact, you never mentioned

4 him, and you said that you did not know the name of the commander, and

5 half of your statement is filled with "Mr. Aleksovski."

6 A. Today nobody asked me about him, and I have to tell you, I was

7 only answering the questions that were asked of me.

8 Q. I will repeat the question. When you were at the physician's, was

9 Mr. Aleksovski there?

10 A. I cannot remember. There were five or six soldiers. I cannot

11 recall.

12 Q. And tell me now, is what you stated to the investigators not true?

13 A. I'm not saying that it's not true, but my mental state at that

14 time, I cannot recall all the details.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we go to the

16 private session for a minute, just in case.

17 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

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23 [Open session]

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

25 Q. When and on which occasion was he at the Heliodrom and with whom?

Page 6868

1 A. I saw him twice at the Heliodrom. He was with Juka Prazina, Armin

2 Pohara, Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and the other entourage and soldiers.

3 Q. In other words, Mr. Naletilic, Armin Pohara, Mr. Agacevic were

4 together, and that is when you saw Mr. Tuta with them, what, for the first

5 time, for the second time?

6 A. That was the second time.

7 Q. And was Mr. Aleksovski also there?

8 A. I do not remember that. A number of faces passed in front of me.

9 I don't recall.

10 Q. Will you look at page 6 of your statement, please, the fourth

11 paragraph, first sentence. Here you say that Aleksovski was there too.

12 A. Please. I could not see well, nor were they close to me. That is

13 what the prisoners who were around me said. One of them may have said,

14 "There's Aleksovski too." So I -- that means that I only heard about

15 it.

16 Q. Now, tell me, how did you know that that was Mr. Naletilic? Were

17 you also told by others regarding him that it was him?

18 A. Yes. The prisoners who were from Herzegovina, from Stolac,

19 Capljina, Mostar, Konjic, and so on.

20 Q. And will you please describe Mr. Naletilic. How tall was he?

21 What was his build?

22 A. I observed him from a prone position. He was wearing eyeglasses.

23 He was not tall. He had greying hair, and then he had his hair parted to

24 the side, and that's all I can say.

25 Q. And what was his build? How much could he have weighed?

Page 6869

1 A. I don't know. I did not weigh him.

2 Q. I know, Witness, you did not, but was he well built? Was he built

3 like you? Was he built like me?

4 A. I think he was not well built. I think -- I can say he was rather

5 thin, than not.

6 Q. Now, tell me, this soldier who hit someone there at the end of the

7 hallway, was that a military policeman? Is that what you said today?

8 When they were --

9 A. Yes. It was either a military policeman or a soldier. They were

10 together in the escort, yes.

11 Q. And do you know why they had come? What were they doing there?

12 A. I don't know why they came. I don't know what they were talking

13 about. I did not hear anything at all. I don't know why they had come.

14 Q. Witness, will you please be so kind and tell me -- I'm going to

15 show you a photograph now. I think it was the same that was shown to you

16 by -- the same one you were given -- you were shown by my learned friend,

17 that is, the Exhibit 20.10. And I will have a couple of questions

18 regarding this photograph.

19 Will you be so kind and tell me where your room was? If you can

20 take a pointer and show it in this building that you call the central

21 prison.

22 A. I'm sorry, but I did not call it. I was told by the men in

23 uniform that that is what it was.

24 Q. I'm sorry.

25 A. I did not name it that.

Page 6870

1 Q. Will you please point to your room, the room where you were

2 staying?

3 A. Excuse me. My room was on the second floor. As you go upstairs,

4 and as you walk up, it was to the left, on the left-hand side. I cannot

5 pinpoint the window of that room.

6 Q. You said it was 12 to 15 metres long.

7 A. In my estimate. But the prisoners who were there said that it

8 used to be some kind of a classroom. I don't know how to describe it.

9 Q. Very well. Witness, if you cannot show it, you cannot.

10 A. I definitely cannot. I cannot be completely precise on this.

11 Q. Witness, will you please tell me, the first time Mr. Naletilic

12 came, who was with him at that time?

13 A. The first time there were some men in uniform; some had white

14 belts, some did not. They came. And as I said, they were at the door

15 right inside the room, and they stayed only briefly.

16 Q. No, no, no. My question to you: Who was in his company at that

17 time?

18 A. He had Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela, with him, and other soldiers

19 and military policemen.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I do not know, Your Honours. I

21 apologise. I do not know if we shall be making a break now or not. I do

22 not know your schedule, Your Honours. How did you plan this hearing?

23 JUDGE LIU: On this schedule, Mr. Krsnik, your time is up, unless

24 Mr. Par will give some of his time to you.

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we are making a break,

Page 6871

1 then I shall talk with Mr. Krsnik, and we shall see how we shall proceed.

2 JUDGE LIU: Just remember that in the order we issued about the

3 scheduling, the Defence will have two hours together for the

4 cross-examination.

5 We'll resume at 10.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 9.30 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 10.00 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I talked about it with

10 my colleague. I won't take much longer, and then Mr. Par will continue,

11 but we shall fit into the time set aside for us.

12 And now I'd like to go back to that letter. I believe we all have

13 it now.

14 Q. Witness, do you have this letter which you wrote to the Minister

15 of the Interior, Mr. Avdo Habib? If you do, I'd like to ask you -- one,

16 two, three, four, fifth passage in your letter -- no. Sorry, fourth,

17 fourth paragraph. See it? And it begins like this -- I'll try to read

18 slowly:

19 "I left on the 31st of March, 1993. I carry out my tasks in

20 Germany, most of them, and as agreed, I have written to Bosnia after two

21 months."

22 And then you go on:

23 "On my way back to Travnik with complete documentation, I was

24 arrested in Split on the 24th."

25 Their Honours and my learned friends can see in their English

Page 6872

1 translation that the month is illegible. And in the Croat text, it is

2 legible enough to see that it is either the sixth or the eighth month.

3 Everybody in this courtroom and Their Honours can see it, but it is

4 definitely not the fifth month of 1993. It doesn't say "05."

5 So my question to you is: When exactly were you arrested in

6 Split?

7 A. I was arrested in Split on the 1st of June, 1993. And in this

8 letter, it must be the mistake, whoever wrote it, whoever typed it,

9 because I cannot type either on a typewriter or on a computer.

10 Q. Will you then turn to page 2 and tell us -- don't, of course, say

11 it aloud, because we are in a public session, but is that your signature?

12 A. Yes, it is my signature.

13 Q. Did you dictate this letter?

14 A. Yes, I did dictate it. But it is a misprint. You know how it

15 happens. Typos can be found in Globus and Vecernji List and Oslobodenje,

16 and so on and so forth, let alone in an ordinary letter.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that was my last

18 question. Thank you very much.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Par, please.

20 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

22 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon or good evening, Witness UU.

23 A. Good afternoon to you.

24 Q. My name is Zelimir Par, and I'm one of the counsel for Vinko

25 Martinovic. I will ask you some questions relating to your today's

Page 6873

1 testimony.

2 You said that you saw Vinko Martinovic at the Heliodrom on several

3 occasions and that he was amongst the detainees. Vinko Martinovic says

4 that he was never at the Heliodrom nor did he ever visit any detainees,

5 and we have not heard it either from other witnesses.

6 So my question to you is -- and it is related to the specific

7 incident that you described when a detainee from Prozor was beaten: Can

8 you tell us who else was with Vinko Martinovic on that occasion and whom

9 you allegedly saw? Can you list once again the persons who were with

10 him?

11 A. There was Juka Prazina; there was Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta;

12 Vinko Martinovic, Stela; Armin Pohara; Rusmir Agacevic. But please, I do

13 not know Mr. Vinko Martinovic, Stela. It was what the detainees talked

14 amongst themselves. They said, "Oh, there's Stela." I did not know him

15 personally. I did not know him before. So I could not conclude for

16 myself that that was the gentleman's name. So it was the detainees who

17 were talking amongst themselves and said that yes, it was he, that he was

18 together with the rest of them.

19 Q. I see. I understand that. But on all those occasions that you

20 say you saw him, was it at the same level of your personal knowledge? I

21 don't know if you understand me.

22 A. Yes, it is always the same.

23 Q. And we are still talking about this incident where the man from

24 Prozor was beaten. Do you know who was the first one to hit him, before

25 Prazina and the dog and all that?

Page 6874

1 A. One of the soldiers in a multicoloured uniform. I am quite sure

2 it was not Vinko Martinovic, Stela, who struck him, nor later. Nor later

3 he did not beat him.

4 Q. Very well. Very well. I'm asking you this because of this

5 Aleksovski, you see. In your statement which you saw today, you described

6 this event. And in addition to these names which you gave us, you also

7 mentioned this Aleksovski. You also said that Aleksovski was the first

8 one to strike the man from Prozor.

9 Do I have to show you the statement once again, or can you confirm

10 that it is true that that is what you said in your statement of the 17th

11 and 18th of September, 1997? Is it true that you said that in the

12 statement?

13 A. Well, it is true that I said it, but I cannot remember every

14 single detail after eight years. I'm sorry.

15 Q. Right, right. I understand that. But we are still dealing with

16 this Aleksovski. And I'm asking you now, you omitted him today, and yet

17 you mentioned him in your statement. So my question is: Did you find out

18 later that this Zlatko Aleksovski was charged before this Tribunal for

19 events in Central Bosnia where he was in -- until 1994 and that in 1993,

20 he could not be where you say he was? Is it what you heard about him, and

21 is that why you omitted him from your testimony today?

22 A. I did not hear about that, nor do I have any idea.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

24 MR. STRINGER: I object to the form of that question, Your

25 Honour. It assumes facts not in evidence, and I think that we would not

Page 6875

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Page 6876

1 be in a position to agree that Mr. Aleksovski could not have been down in

2 the Mostar area during that particular period of time.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I will rephrase my question, Your

4 Honour.

5 Q. Witness, why is it, then, that you do not mention Aleksovski

6 today, yet your statement teems with this name, especially in relation to

7 Vinko Martinovic? So my question is: Is there any particular reason for

8 which Aleksovski was omitted from your today's testimony?

9 A. No, there is no reason whatsoever.

10 Q. Is there, therefore, any reason why he was mentioned then and is

11 not mentioned now? You've got to explain it to me somehow.

12 A. Well, quite simply I must explain that even then, when I mentioned

13 him, I mentioned him on the basis of what the detainees had told me.

14 Because you must realise that I was lying down on the ground like a sack

15 full of stones. I never moved. So somebody next to me says, "There's

16 Aleksovski." If somebody says, "There's Madonna," I would have believed

17 him. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

18 Q. Yes, I understand you. But do you understand me when you say the

19 same thing you told me about Vinko Martinovic, that it was somebody who

20 pointed and said, "That is Vinko Martinovic," and that you don't know him

21 personally?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But today, you mentioned him, and in the way in which you

24 mentioned him. So my question is: Why this change with regard to

25 Aleksovski? Why didn't you provide a similar explanation for Aleksovski,

Page 6877

1 but he simply vanishes into thin air?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

3 MR. STRINGER: My objection, Your Honour, is that this question

4 has been asked already by counsel. It has been asked and answered.

5 JUDGE LIU: We also believe that this question has been asked and

6 answered. You must skip this question.

7 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. I will do so.

8 Q. We're still talking about the same incident, the beaten detainee

9 from Prozor. But let me ask you something about Rusmir Agacevic. You

10 said that he was also present on that occasion. And my question is: Is

11 there a conflict between you and Rusmir Agacevic?

12 A. No. We have never had a conflict or hatred or argument, never.

13 Q. Very well. Can you tell me if there is or if you know of a reason

14 that somebody -- the reason for which somebody else misused your name in

15 the newspaper and started an argument with Agacevic? Can you explain

16 that?

17 A. Well, there must be a reason certainly, because during the war in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina and after the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, all sorts of

19 things have been happening and still are happening. You know it better

20 than I do, sir. And it is quite possible that one of the services -- and

21 as you know, and I'm sure you know more than I do, there are about five,

22 six services, and of the secret ones there can be 15, 20 of them, and I

23 don't know how many we don't know about that.

24 Q. Very well. So let us move on now to something else, and that is

25 Stela's men. You said that they came there, took some prisoners away, and

Page 6878

1 so on. Tell me, do you know personally any of those so-called Stela's

2 men?

3 A. No, I do not know any of them personally. I never -- I've never

4 seen them before, and I cannot give you any names.

5 Q. Very well. Tell me -- and do you know about that unit anything?

6 What was its name?

7 A. No, I don't know what the unit was called.

8 Q. Do you then know what kind of uniforms or insignia did they wear?

9 A. What I do know - and again I repeat, please do understand my

10 point - it is those detainees who were together with me. They kept saying

11 that it was something like Convicts Battalion. That is what I heard.

12 As for the uniforms, there were many colours, with HVO patches.

13 Some others may have had some other patches. I don't know. But as I have

14 said, I was seldom close enough to be able to read it on their uniforms

15 and say they had this or that.

16 Q. Witness, I am asking you these questions. Take it easy. Don't

17 get upset.

18 My question to you is whether there is a difference between these

19 soldiers from others. Can you tell these men from others? And I'll ask

20 you the same thing about Juka's men. Did you know anyone from Juka's unit

21 personally?

22 A. No. No, I never did, nor did I ever see anyone from Juka's unit.

23 Q. Didn't you perhaps mix up Juka's and Tuta's men?

24 A. To my mind, they were all the same. I don't know who was under

25 whom and what was he like or what was he.

Page 6879

1 Q. And there is just one more incident we have to cover with a few

2 questions, so will you please focus on the situation in the infirmary when

3 you were beaten. My colleague showed you this part of the statement where

4 Aleksovski is mentioned but not Stela. But I'm not going to ask you about

5 the statement. I'm going to ask you questions in relation to what you

6 testified today.

7 You said - and you will correct me if I'm wrong - you said that

8 you saw Stela sitting in that infirmary whilst you were beaten by two

9 soldiers with white belts; is that correct?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Now, those soldiers with white belts, were they part of the

12 military police? Do you know that?

13 A. Everybody who had white belts was part of the military police.

14 Q. Very well. And tell us, did Stela have a white belt?

15 A. No, he did not have a white belt.

16 Q. Can we then conclude that those soldiers who beat you were not his

17 men?

18 A. Well, now I cannot really say that they were his men or Marko

19 Markovic's or Juka's or Zuka's soldiers or who they were. I'm not -- I'm

20 not saying that.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not have any further

22 questions.

23 Thank you, Witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any re-examination, please,

25 Mr. Stringer?

Page 6880

1 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from the Judges?

3 Judge Clark?

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE CLARK: Can I just ask Mr. Par a question? You asked about

6 Mr. Rusmir Agacevic. You asked him did he know him and was there any bad

7 feeling between them. Who is this man?

8 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I shall explain it briefly. Rusmir

9 Agacevic appears in this in relation to the article, and before that he is

10 mentioned in the statement that the witness made. The witness said in the

11 statement that Rusmir Agacevic used to come to the Heliodrom, a man who is

12 a Muslim and who at that time allegedly had some role to play in relation

13 to Muslims there. That is one thing.

14 And in the article that was the subject of all sorts of

15 misunderstandings today -- apart from that, he is an actor in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so a public figure. I do not know if that answer is

17 satisfactory.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Is this gentleman mentioned in the statement?

19 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, he is mentioned in the statement as

20 a man who was present when this detainee from Prozor was beaten. It is in

21 the witness's statement of the 17th and 18th of September, 1997, and today

22 the witness confirmed to me that this Rusmir Agacevic was present when

23 this detainee from Prozor was beaten and that allegedly Vinko Martinovic

24 was present on that occasion too. Thank you.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Witness UU, in relation to the letter which was

Page 6881

1 shown to us a few minutes ago and which - thank you, Judge - which you

2 were asked about, you talked about going from the centre of Bosnia to

3 Germany for humanitarian assistance. Was this an official task that you

4 were on?

5 A. Well, it was more a private task, but it was also official because

6 that was how I could get out, that is, get my travel documents, only if I

7 said that from neighbours or friends, or I don't know who else, that I

8 would go to them and ask them to send perhaps some food or clothing to

9 Central Bosnia.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Did you tell the officials in Split and thereafter

11 that you had actually been collecting humanitarian aid for the victims of

12 the war in Central Bosnia, or did they know in any way?

13 A. No, they did not know it and didn't ask me, and I didn't tell

14 them.

15 JUDGE CLARK: I think that Mr. Stringer asked you if you had any

16 idea of why you were arrested, detained, and treated so appallingly, and

17 you said you didn't know but you formulated a possible reason, and that

18 was that you came from Central Bosnia, which was the scene of a great deal

19 of brutal behaviour on all sides, I believe.

20 Were the other people who were with you treated in the same way,

21 or were you selected to be the worst treated?

22 A. They treated brutally other men who were arrested. They beat them

23 and insulted them. It just so happened that I suffered most, so that I

24 was unable to move; again, perhaps, I say, because I come from Central

25 Bosnia and because at that time, there was fighting going on in Novi

Page 6882

1 Travnik, Gornji Vakuf. I mean fighting between Croats and Muslims.

2 JUDGE CLARK: In relation to the treatment which was, according to

3 your testimony, meted out to the young man from Prozor, was that the same

4 sort of treatment that you received, abuse because you came from the scene

5 of fighting?

6 A. I think I cannot really say for sure. That could also be it. But

7 I still think that somebody had recognised him, that is, that one of those

8 soldiers in the HVO uniforms had recognised him, perhaps known him before,

9 or perhaps on the spur of the moment, some incident or something had been

10 fabri -- invented or provoked. I cannot really say why this battery, why

11 this incident took place, but it is quite possible that it was as you put

12 it. But again, it is also possible that that soldier knew this young man

13 from before and wanted to take it out on him, or perhaps they staged some

14 incident or something.

15 JUDGE CLARK: I'm always interested, Witness UU, in the

16 application of the Geneva Convention in prisoner of war camps, and I

17 always ask questions in relation to that. Can you tell me again what

18 happened on the day that the International Red Cross representatives came

19 to the hospital -- or to the Heliodrom? To the best of your recollection,

20 can you go through that again for me, please.

21 A. I claim responsibly that two or three persons, when they came to

22 the Heliodrom -- and please understand me. Maybe they had been to the

23 Heliodrom a hundred times. But to the room in which I spent 45 days

24 there, I saw them only twice. Of those two times, what happened in

25 so-called hangars or some other buildings or rooms, I know nothing about

Page 6883

1 that, and I cannot say anything about that. But when they came to the

2 door - and I say this responsibly - and when they started talking - the

3 detainees, I mean, they started saying, "Here's the Red Cross" - they all

4 jumped up these like starving children of Biafra. They all rushed towards

5 them, and I stayed just behind there lying down as a bag, as a chair, as a

6 table, as a rock. Now, can you imagine, it's 50 or 60 detainees

7 surrounding the three of them. You could not see them at all.

8 But I am quite positive that at that time, many soldiers with

9 white belts entered. And after 20 minutes or so, they drove the Red Cross

10 out of that room. Where the Red Cross went then, I do not know. Perhaps

11 to other rooms. Perhaps they didn't; perhaps they did. But what I can

12 say under full responsibility is that this is 100 percent truth.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Witness UU, when the Red Cross came, was there no

14 arrangement made that there would be a desk on which papers could be

15 placed and one of the representatives could sit at a chair and take your

16 names in an orderly manner?

17 A. 100 percent in the room where I was, no table or chairs were

18 organised or anything like that. Now, whether that happened in other

19 rooms in other buildings, in the so-called hangars, as they used to call

20 them, that I do not know. Perhaps yes; perhaps no. I have no problem

21 with that. But I say 100 percent that did not happen in my room, and that

22 normal access of the representatives of the Red Cross was not possible. I

23 never moved to any other rooms. I do not know what happened in the

24 Heliodrom compound except for what I was told occasionally by some other

25 prisoners. If that's what they said it was, I just accepted it at face

Page 6884

1 value, and that's what I stand by.

2 JUDGE CLARK: Am I correct in recalling that you said to

3 Mr. Krsnik that documents were torn up by the men in white belts?

4 A. That is correct. Some prisoners came and said, "What is the use

5 of my being registered by the Red Cross when they tore up this card, this

6 ID card, the card I had?" And the others would say, "It doesn't matter.

7 You are still registered in a computer." This is the extent of the

8 conversations that I was able to hear, and that's how it was.

9 JUDGE CLARK: I'll move on to something totally different, a

10 subject that caused a lot of problem today. I wonder if not the article

11 but the magazine could be placed on the ELMO so that you could see it, and

12 I want you to tell me, do you recognise this magazine? Have you ever seen

13 it or read it? Do you know anything at all about it?

14 A. Excuse me. I do not want to comment on this magazine because I

15 never saw it. I never held it in my hand. And I take full responsibility

16 when I say that this is not my doing, that I have nothing to do with it.

17 And I do not want to make any comment about that magazine because, as I

18 said 1.000 times, it happens every day in the press that Miroslav Ciro

19 Blazevic, a well-known coach, he says, "I do not want to deal with the

20 journalists, with the press any more because they impute all kinds of

21 things." And you know what happens in times of war.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Witness UU, I'm not asking you about the article.

23 I'm asking you about the magazine. And I want you to look at the cover of

24 that magazine and want you to say whether you have ever seen that magazine

25 before. I'm not asking you about the article.

Page 6885

1 A. Yes. Can you please show me the cover of the magazine so that I

2 can look at it, and I will give you my reply?

3 JUDGE CLARK: Just the cover, sir. That's all I want you to look

4 at. We're not talking about the article. I just want you to tell me,

5 have you ever seen the magazine?

6 A. Will you please show me the cover, and I will give you the

7 answer?

8 JUDGE CLARK: Could we see the date, please?

9 A. I saw the cover page very well, and I take full responsibility in

10 saying that I have never read this magazine. I never held it in my hand,

11 and --

12 JUDGE CLARK: That's all I wanted to know, Witness --

13 A. -- not this issue nor any other issue.

14 JUDGE CLARK: It looks like an satirical magazine, from the

15 cover. That's all I wanted you to say, just had you ever seen this

16 particular magazine or the publication before.

17 A. Never.

18 JUDGE CLARK: We can take it off the ELMO now. One last thing,

19 Witness. This is for my own curiosity. How are you now? Have your

20 injuries recovered?

21 A. Your Honour, I will say as an honourable person that I have still

22 serious consequences. I cannot sleep more than two or three hours in a

23 24-hour cycle. I have days and nights when I cannot get up. I feel pain

24 in my legs, in my arms. I do receive some medical help, some medications,

25 some injection. I have to say that I do receive those. But my mental

Page 6886

1 condition, my health condition is close to zero. I feel pain at any

2 change.

3 I mostly suffer from insomnia, and I cannot shake off the question

4 of why I had to suffer when I never belonged to any kind of organisation.

5 I was part of no military. I was not involved in anything. My father

6 only gave me this name 40-odd years ago, and this is why I have suffered,

7 and this is why my family, my mother, my brothers, my sisters, my father

8 are still suffering.

9 And I have these pains day and night, but I am not giving up. I

10 believe that it will improve. The wounds have healed to a large degree,

11 but I'm still not well. I cannot walk for more than ten minutes at a

12 time, and it's hard. But I thank you for asking me this question and

13 thank you for showing understanding for my unfortunate case.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Well, I can appreciate, Witness, that the

15 psychological trauma is continuing, and indeed the sequelae of your other

16 injuries.

17 In all the circumstances, therefore, thank you very much for

18 answering my questions and indeed for coming here today.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Clark.

20 Judge Diarra?

21 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22 Witness, I would simply like to ask you: Did you have any

23 opportunity to check, to verify whether the persons of whom you were told

24 that they were Messrs. Naletilic and Martinovic were indeed these men?

25 A. I had no opportunity to verify whether Mr. Martinovic, called

Page 6887

1 Stela, and Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, were indeed these men. I had no

2 opportunity to verify it. I did not verify it. And again I take full

3 responsibility when I say that even before that, I had never seen them,

4 and I never had any conflict or any problems with them. And I believe

5 that they had none with me either.

6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] So at this point in time, you know

7 that Mr. -- that Vinko Martinovic and Mladen Naletilic passed through the

8 prison, the camp where you were staying because you were told so by the

9 other prisoners who were there with you?

10 A. That is exactly right, because all my knowledge is based on what

11 they told me. And they were talking among themselves quietly,

12 whispering. They were sharing stories, the prisoners who were from

13 Herzegovina, Konjic, Jablanica, Mostar, Bijelo Polje, and so on and so

14 forth.

15 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] When Juka Prazina turned loose his

16 German shepherd dog on this prisoner from Prozor, this happened in the

17 presence of Martinovic, that is, you said that you thought that this man

18 was Martinovic. Was Naletilic also present there, and how did these

19 people react?

20 A. Yes, he was present. But please, I did not hear what they were

21 talking about, and I did not see what their reaction was. After a period

22 of time, they pushed him out of the room into the hallway, and I will take

23 responsibility in saying that the other prisoners who were there, and I --

24 they saw that Vinko Martinovic, Stela, and Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, did not

25 beat or abuse this young man. But I do not know how they reacted. They

Page 6888

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Page 6889

1 were not near me. They may have been 12 to 15 metres away from me. I do

2 not know what they were talking about and so on.

3 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Are you the only member of your

4 family who survived these difficult times which took place in your

5 country, or did other members of your family, your brothers, sisters, or

6 parents, also suffered some hard times?

7 A. I'm the only one who had suffered in this way, in a camp. My

8 brothers, my father, my sisters were not in a camp. But, for instance,

9 perhaps some distant relatives or some neighbours of mine may have

10 suffered in another way, may have been wounded by some shrapnel or

11 something, or in conflict with the Serbian army and so on. But of my

12 family, I was the only one who was imprisoned and mistreated and tortured

13 and so on.

14 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] At one point, you told us about

15 your only child. In a letter which you wrote to the Minister, you

16 mentioned two children. So do you have one or two children, and were

17 these children also children also the victims of the traumas that you

18 suffered?

19 A. I have two children. My children are victims, and my wife, for

20 days and nights -- day and night, they empathise with what I have gone

21 through. They often ask me questions. I often avoid giving them the real

22 truth. Frequently, a small detail may make me raise my voice, or I may

23 turn depressive or aggressive, and the children start crying and run to

24 their mother. I am not trying to beat my children or mistreat them in any

25 way, but these things are happening. It's this so-called post-traumatic

Page 6890

1 stress syndrome. So they are victims because they empathise with me.

2 When I am unwell, when the doctors come to give me injection, when

3 I take medication, when I cannot get up, when at night there's no

4 physician, when I have to wait for the morning in order to be able to get

5 some injection, then they cannot sleep. They cannot have a normal,

6 regular life like children should have. And you will know fully well that

7 they are at no fault in all of this.

8 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] I thank you, sir, and I wish you a

9 lot of courage and a lot of good fortune to you and your children.

10 A. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Judge Diarra.

12 Any questions out of Judge's questions? Mr. Stringer?

13 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, with your permission, just one

14 question of the witness.

15 Further examination by Mr. Stringer:

16 Q. Witness, let me ask you again, you were asked about how you knew

17 that it was Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, and Vinko Martinovic, Stela. And I

18 just wanted to ask you: The two men whom you're saying are Naletilic and

19 Martinovic, did you see those two men in your part of the building with

20 your own eyes and then learn from others who you think the names of those

21 men are? Did you see them with your own eyes?

22 A. That is correct. That is correct, that I saw them with my own

23 eyes. But I did not know who they were. Then the prisoners told me,

24 "These are Vinko Martinovic, Juka Prazina. That is Mr. Mladen

25 Naletilic," and so on.

Page 6891

1 MR. STRINGER: Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any questions? Mr. Par.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour, thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 Witness, thank you very much for helping us by giving your

8 evidence.

9 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]

10 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender into

11 the evidence?

12 MR. STRINGER: Just Exhibit 20.10 as marked, which is /3,

13 20.10/3. I think that the Exhibit Number 1 I think is already in evidence

14 and the Trial Chamber is able to find all the locations --

15 JUDGE LIU: But it was re-marked by the witness himself. That

16 should be a different --

17 MR. STRINGER: That would be P1/1, and we tender that exhibit as

18 well.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I guess there's no objections from Defence

20 counsel.

21 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

22 MR. KRSNIK: No objection, Your Honour.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Also no objection.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] However, Your Honours, the Defence

25 would like to tender the letter, but I do not have enough copies, so I

Page 6892

1 will provide a sufficient number of copies and give it to the Madam

2 Registrar tomorrow.

3 I would just like to announce that I will tender it. That would

4 be D1/40, I believe, Madam Registrar, the letter to the Minister. Then

5 D1/39. And I am going to provide the sufficient number of copies to the

6 Madam Registrar tomorrow.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Any objections?

8 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President. No objection to the Defence

9 exhibit.

10 Before we break, I would just like to express on behalf of the

11 Prosecution our gratitude to the Trial Chamber and your staff for your

12 willingness to work late and to do this. We really appreciate it.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 How about that previous statement put forward by you during the

15 cross-examination? We believe that you used that document quite

16 extensively.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I will not take it

18 badly. I know that I have -- that I'm running out of yellow cards, but I

19 did not have enough copies. So when we produce enough copies, I'm going

20 to tender that previous statement, too, as our exhibit. And that would, I

21 believe, be D1/40 is our next exhibit.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Stringer.

23 MR. STRINGER: I just simply want to say, Mr. President, if we're

24 talking about the OTP statement which is dated the 17th and 18th of

25 September, 1997, we have no objection to it being tendered, I think, for

Page 6893

1 the limited purposes which would fall within an earlier decision of this

2 Trial Chamber, although the Trial Chamber can obviously accept it for

3 whatever evidentiary value it deems worth.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you could submit this document to

5 this Trial Chamber, and Madam Registrar will give it an ID number.

6 Whether this should be admitted into evidence, we'll make the decision at

7 a later stage, after we read those previous statements. Is that clear?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very clear, Your Honours. I was just

9 going to ask you one more thing: Is your decision a standing decision

10 that only the relevant parts of the statement be taken into account? This

11 is back a couple of months ago, this decision. Because I know that my

12 learned friend only was leading the relevant portions, I believe, if I'm

13 not wrong. My learned friend will remember that -- that the decision, the

14 ruling of the Trial Chamber was only that the relevant portions of the

15 statements be retained, be kept. If that is not so, I'll be happy to

16 provide the full -- to finish a full statement.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, you used very extensively this previous

18 statement, and you can submit that statement in its totality. We will

19 make the decision at a later stage concerning this statement.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I

21 understand.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will resume at 2.30 tomorrow afternoon in

23 Courtroom II.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.50 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day

Page 6894

1 of December, 2001, at 2.30 p.m.

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