Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7077

1 Thursday, 06 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we have the witness, there is a

9 decision we would like to announce.

10 At the end of the trial session yesterday, the Defence counsel for

11 Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic jointly requested that OTP witness

12 testimony of Mr. Marko Prelec, who is scheduled to testify today, December

13 6, is postponed until after Christmas recess. This morning, the Chamber

14 has received the written joint objections of the Defence. The Defence

15 argues that they have not had sufficient time to study and examine the

16 transcript that shall be submitted to the Chamber with the witness.

17 As the Defence counsel themselves stated in their written

18 objections, the witness is only called to lay a foundation for the

19 introduction of the transcripts of taped meetings from the Office of the

20 President of the Republic of Croatia.

21 That witness has already testified before this Chamber in this

22 case, with regard to the introduction of other Prosecution exhibits. His

23 testimony on 25 and 26 October, 2001, clearly shows that Mr. Prelec is a

24 witness who can and will only testify as to the way he has selected and

25 obtained documents for the Prosecutor's Office and how those documents

Page 7078

1 were processed within the Prosecutor's Office.

2 The Trial Chamber finds, therefore, that the witness is not in a

3 position to testify with regard to the substance of the specific contents

4 of the transcripts.

5 Therefore, the Defence counsel is not prejudiced in any way by

6 hearing the testimony of Mr. Prelec today. In particular, the Defence

7 will be granted due time to file their written response to the application

8 of the Prosecution to have the presidential transcripts admitted into

9 evidence. This has been the practice before this Trial Chamber throughout

10 the case and it will apply also with regard to the collection of the

11 presidential transcripts.

12 For these reasons, the Trial Chamber rejects the objections of the

13 Defence counsel. The Prosecution may call their witness as scheduled. It

14 is so decided.

15 Yes, Mr. Par?

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour. It is not

17 related to this issue, but I have one procedural matter to address, and of

18 course it is nothing to do with this ruling. We have understood this

19 ruling.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, about ten days ago, when

22 Witnesses OO and QQ were deposed, I think that there were two situations

23 that were not completely cleared up. During the evidence of Witness OO,

24 it was said that he would write -- that he would give a written statement

25 about the wooden rifle and the museum in which it is now located. We have

Page 7079

1 so far not been informed on whether the witness has indeed submitted this

2 written statement, whether it has been submitted to the Court, and whether

3 the Defence will be given access to it. So this is the first issue that

4 has not been fully clarified for the Defence.

5 And the second situation was with the Witness QQ, who asserted

6 that certain pressures were exerted upon him and, again, it was agreed

7 that he would put it down in writing for the Trial Chamber. We do not

8 know whether this has been done and whether we, as the Defence, will have

9 an opportunity to review this statement.

10 We would therefore like the Trial Chamber to give us their

11 position on these two issues.

12 In relation to that, we would like to point out that our clients

13 have serious objections to parts of the evidence given by these two

14 witnesses, because in part of their testimony, they were surprise

15 witnesses, giving evidence that has never surfaced before. One of them

16 was -- one had to do with a member of the ABiH, and the other one was

17 contact with a prison inmate. This raises certain concerns to the Defence

18 and we therefore would like to see what the -- what the position of the

19 Trial Chamber is in regards of these witnesses, OO and QQ. It is

20 important for us at this stage of the proceedings because we need to know

21 whether, in our own case, we need to look to bring some new witnesses that

22 would be able to counter what these witnesses have said, and we should be

23 able to know this at this time because we are in the process of preparing

24 our pre-defence conference. So this would be an important point for us to

25 have resolved as soon as possible. It does not have to be obviously right

Page 7080

1 now but it was time for us to bring it up now. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the two statements from Witness OO and QQ, this

3 Trial Chamber has made an oral order to the Prosecutor that asks for those

4 statements and also asks for the wooden rifles. We are expecting some

5 response from the side of the Prosecution about those issues.

6 As for the surprise witness, in this case, we also need the

7 explanation from the side of the Prosecution.

8 Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, as to the statements of OO and QQ, and

10 the wooden rifles, the wooden rifle situation, I'm happy to report,

11 perhaps coincidentally or what have you, we anticipate providing those

12 materials today, sometime in the course of today's session. So that

13 should be done. We weren't going to start today doing that, but sometime

14 between now and 7.00 we would hope to present that material to the Chamber

15 and to the Defence.

16 As to the surprise witness that, I have to admit, off the top of

17 my head, I'm not sure what's being referenced there. Mr. President, if

18 you or Defence can assist me, I'm not sure what that's about.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are not going to discuss about this matter in

20 this courtroom. I hope that both parties could meet after today's sitting

21 to clarify this issue and report to this Trial Chamber.

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Of course, Your Honour. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

25 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, good afternoon. Yesterday

Page 7081

1 when the Trial Chamber decided to take under advisement the Defence motion

2 which has been ruled on today, and we understand that ruling and we

3 obviously will abide by that ruling, it was asked by the Trial Chamber if

4 Witness XX would be available to testify today, and I believe my learned

5 colleague Mr. Bos, particularly, had indicated yes, he would be available

6 to testify today.

7 So just as a matter of curiosity, since Mr. Prelec is an OTP

8 witness, will he be bringing -- will he be testifying tomorrow and XX

9 today? That's my only question.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, we believe that the ruling we made just now is

11 quite clear, that is, the Prosecution may call their witnesses as

12 scheduled.

13 Mr. Scott, do you want to add something?

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, in consultation with Mr. Bos, who will

15 be handling that next -- not Mr. Prelec, but the next witness, in fact,

16 we're largely neutral but, in fact, it may be just as well to take

17 Mr. Bos's witness next because that will then, of course, be -- give us

18 greater assurance that he will finish before the end of the week and can

19 return home.

20 If we took -- of course, if we took Mr. Prelec today and depending

21 on developments, it could be that the next witness would not finish by

22 1.00 tomorrow and we would have the unfortunate situation where the

23 witness would have to stay over the weekend, so it may be the way things

24 have evolved in the course of the week that it's just as well, and Mr. Bos

25 says -- tells me he is prepared, with my thanks, that we go ahead and

Page 7082

1 take the next witness after this, and then take Mr. Prelec following

2 that. And since, indeed, he is here in The Hague, we have a bit more

3 flexibility, if that's acceptable to the Chamber.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We will hear the witness

5 according to the order you suggested.

6 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 Usher, would you please bring the witness.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

11 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down. Please remember that you are still

12 under the solemn declaration.

13 WITNESS: WITNESS WW [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President, good

17 afternoon, Your Honours.

18 Mr. President, I do not have many questions, but because of the

19 nature of the questions that I'm going to ask now, I'm going to request a

20 private session, please.

21 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

22 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President, closed

23 session.

24 JUDGE LIU: Closed session, please.

25 [Closed session]

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Page 7085

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek, cross-examination?

3 MR. MEEK: Yes, Mr. President, Your Honours, I was not quick

4 enough. I would have asked you to stay in closed session for -- I only

5 have a few questions, but I think it's appropriate.

6 JUDGE LIU: We'll go back to the closed session.

7 [Closed session]

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Page 7088

1 [Open session]

2 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

3 Q. Good afternoon.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you just a very few questions. As there

6 was considerable examination about the identification of the accused Vinko

7 Martinovic, or the cross-examination, so let me ask you a few questions

8 about that. The men who came to your apartment first on the 9th of May

9 and then again on the 13th of June, did you know any of those four men

10 just from living in Mostar or having lived there for some time, did you

11 know them or know of them before seeing them on those two days?

12 THE INTERPRETER: We're sorry, we cannot hear the witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well --

14 MR. SCOTT: Witness, for some reason we're not getting , I think,

15 the broadcast.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Scott, your microphone is not on either.

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, can you try again?

18 MR. SCOTT: Yes, of course. I see Mr. Seric.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric.

20 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I heard the question,

21 so do you want the Prosecutor to ask his question again and then allow me

22 to object to it or to object to it straight away, because the question is

23 in the transcript?

24 Well, I will make my objection, and then you can see from the

25 transcript what it is about, namely, in that examination, the witness

Page 7089

1 answered this question. So the witness, as it was repeated, is leading

2 because both in direct and in cross-examination, the witness said that she

3 saw Vinko Martinovic for the first time there and that she found out about

4 him at the Heliodrom and that she had heard his last name before.

5 So with this question, the Prosecutor is suggesting the answer to

6 the witness.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, would you please skip this question.

8 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, I was trying to approach it in an

9 orderly way, but I'll ask then if the usher could assist me by showing the

10 B/C/S version of the witness's statement to the OTP on the 26th of

11 September, 1998 in front of the witness, please.

12 Q. Witness, I put before you what we call a B/C/S version of the

13 interview statement which you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor's

14 representatives on the - I will double-check the date one more time - 26th

15 of September, 1998. Now, directing your attention to the top of the page

16 that's been marked. I don't want you to read that out loud but would you

17 just read -- there's -- would you just read the top several lines,

18 paragraph of that document, and then I will just have a question for you.

19 Now let me just -- without looking -- have you had a chance to

20 look at that, Witness WW? Witness, have you had a chance to look at it?

21 A. Yes, yes, yes.

22 Q. Now, without looking back at the statement --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT:

25 Q. Now, without looking further back at the statement, does it

Page 7090

1 refresh your recollection that you had told the OTP in September of 1998

2 that you recognise these four men because they had all lived in the Mostar

3 area before this?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And to follow up on that question, did you know anything, for

6 instance, that Mr. Martinovic had done while he was employed or engaged in

7 business before the war?

8 A. From what I heard, Mr. Martinovic drove a taxi before the war.

9 Q. And, Witness, you said yesterday in your testimony --

10 MR. SCOTT: And it was in yesterday's transcript, it would have

11 been page 3, Your Honour, but since the page numbers have changed since

12 yesterday, I can't refer back, but -- my apology, my apology, page 68,

13 line 21 yesterday.

14 Q. Witness, you said, "I know this Vinko Martinovic here." Now,

15 based on what you saw on the 9th of May, 1993, and the 13th of June, 1993,

16 Witness WW, do you believe you know, in fact, the Vinko Martinovic, Stela,

17 who evicted you from your apartment, not once but twice? Do you know who

18 that person is? I mean, had you seen him -- you saw him on those two

19 occasions, and is that what you base your testimony on, or did you see him

20 any time after that?

21 A. Believe me, I would recognise Mr. Stela always and everywhere

22 after all that, but because on both occasions I was the first to be

23 evicted, that is on the 9th of May, and sent to the Heliodrom, and on the

24 13th of June, when I was sent to the other bank, I never saw him. That

25 is, as of that date, the 13th of June, until now, I never saw him again,

Page 7091

1 but Mr. Stela --

2 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.

3 A. But on both occasions, Mr. Stela was at my place. I mean, on both

4 -- both times, he -- he did that. He did it.

5 Q. All right. Thank you very much, witness. Just to clarify, you

6 had not seen him since that time. Now, one final question. About the

7 door -- there was also extensive questioning about where you were at the

8 door of your flat in relationship to the door of the building that you

9 were living in --

10 MR. SCOTT: It may assist -- sorry, Mr. President, I'm just

11 thinking the easiest way to do this. I was considering having the witness

12 do a sketch, but with your permission, I'll try to ask it first, if it

13 will work this way.

14 Q. Is it correct, ma'am, that the door into the building, that is

15 from the outside into your building itself, was immediately adjacent to

16 the door into your flat?

17 A. The front door, that is the door into the building, to the

18 staircase, there is about a metre or perhaps two, and then you climb a

19 couple of steps, and there is my door. Perhaps five. I just can't

20 remember. I mean, it's just right there. It's really very close by.

21 Q. Standing at the door of your flat, could you also see the door

22 into the building?

23 A. Yes, yes, directly.

24 MR. SCOTT: Once again, thank you, Witness. I have no further

25 questions.

Page 7092

1 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from judges? Judge Clark?

2 Questioned by the Court:

3 JUDGE CLARK: Madam Witness, can I ask you a few questions? When

4 the men came to your flat on the evening of the 9th of May -- can you hear

5 me?

6 A. In the morning.

7 JUDGE CLARK: On the 9th of May, and also on the 13th of June, you

8 described how you were in the first flat, so you were the first to be

9 pushed out. Were you mistreated or manhandled in any way?

10 A. Well, to begin with, they came in the morning, not in the

11 evening. Secondly, when I came out, you know, like any woman, it was the

12 beginning of my menopause, and when they came, my period started, so that

13 I went back into the room, got some Tampax, put them in my handbag and

14 because -- and this bag -- then my bag then looked rather small, and so

15 when I came out in front -- when I came out and Mr. Stela was standing in

16 front of the building, I don't know what he thought that I had in the bag,

17 and he started for me to take the bag, and I, knowing that I had something

18 in my handbag that nobody -- no man should see, I tried -- I clutched at

19 this handbag, and at that time he started pushing me, trying to -- trying

20 to prise my hands over and get this handbag, and then he pushed me and

21 this handbag fell, and he kicked me. He kicked me so -- kicked me with

22 his boot so that I felt it, and I was left speechless with a tremendous

23 pain in my spine, but it is all over now. I mean, it was just a fleeting

24 moment when that happened to me. I don't know. I don't know what he

25 thought I had in this handbag. And believe me, I had nothing else except

Page 7093

1 that thing which I personally needed. So I had to go without it. I went

2 to the Heliodrom without anything, and I was in terrible trouble at the

3 Heliodrom because they gave me nothing. And you know, a woman who has

4 something like that ...

5 JUDGE CLARK: Must have been ghastly for you. Another question I

6 wanted to ask is that yesterday, I thought - and I wondered was it my

7 imagination - I thought, and then I started to write the word and it

8 didn't come back, that you mentioned something about a journalist being

9 mistreated. Did you say that or was it my imagination?

10 A. Yes. I did say that. I did. The journalist -- the gentleman who

11 was with that gentleman, he grabbed him abruptly, but this gentleman here

12 interceded so that he wasn't mishandled in any way, except he just grabbed

13 him like this, but the gentleman here intervened and he stayed there. He

14 stayed there in front of the building.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Did this journalist live in your building?

16 A. Yes, yes, he did.

17 JUDGE CLARK: I wonder - it's an unusual request - can I go into,

18 I don't know whether it's closed or private session. I want to mention

19 two names. I'm not familiar with the procedure.

20 MR. SCOTT: Certainly fine with the Prosecution, Your Honour.

21 MR. MEEK: No objection whatsoever, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE CLARK: My problem is I don't know whether it's closed

23 session or private session. I don't want names to be revealed. What do I

24 ask for? Private session?

25 MR. SCOTT: I think in this courtroom, because it's a rather

Page 7094

1 unique situation, it's essentially the same as being in closed session

2 because the -- it's closed session, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to closed session anyway.

4 [Closed session]

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. You stated that you knew Mr. Martinovic

18 before the war, or you knew of him, and you said that he was a taxi

19 driver. Yesterday when you were giving your evidence, you mentioned a

20 coffee bar or a cafe bar which was associated with the Martinovic family.

21 Now, my question is: Did Mr. Martinovic, Mr. Vinko Martinovic, own a

22 coffee bar before the war?

23 A. I don't know, believe me, but I know that the owner of that coffee

24 bar which Mr. Martinovic used, that its original owner was a Mr. Garo

25 Kovacevic. I know that because I would go past that coffee bar every day

Page 7095

1 and he was a Serb, and I know that he was the owner of that coffee bar.

2 Not only I, everybody in Mostar knew that he owned it because that coffee

3 bar was in one of the elite part of the town. It was near the Velez

4 stadium and there were new buildings, and across the street there was a

5 new building, and that coffee bar was owned by Garo Kovacevic and later it

6 was used by Stela.

7 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know who appears to exercise ownership over

8 that coffee bar at the moment?

9 A. No, no, believe me, I don't because I just don't go there

10 anymore. I can't go there anymore.

11 JUDGE CLARK: When we hear people talking about Vinko Martinovic

12 or Stela's coffee bar, it's not one that he owns, it's one that he

13 frequents; is that what you're talking about?

14 A. No. Mr. Martinovic, since Mr. Kovacevic, who was a Serb, left the

15 town, Mr. Martinovic took over that coffee bar and worked in it, at the

16 coffee bar, worked regularly, but who is there now, I do not know, because

17 I haven't lived in that area for the last nine years.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

19 The other thing I wanted to ask you is that you mentioned a few

20 minutes ago that you were still on -- maybe we should be in closed session

21 again.

22 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the closed session, please.

23 [Closed session]

24 [redacted]

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

19 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 Witness WW, I'd like to ask you, when the police turned up in

22 front of your apartment in the morning, did -- they check your identity

23 documents. Then that policeman said, "I'm sorry, I have to kick you out,

24 otherwise they will kill me." And your husband, who I imagine is very

25 brave, told him not to worry. He didn't ask him, "Who will kill you?"

Page 7098

1 A. Believe me, when this guy, and he was quite a young lad, when he

2 entered my flat, I could see that he was upset, too, and because my

3 husband and I were alone in the flat and he had no problem with us.

4 He simply -- I suppose he was also scared of it that something

5 could happen and that is when he said, "You have to go out, otherwise

6 they'll kill me." So obviously he was afraid from somebody else because

7 he was young, he was really young, and I suppose he didn't have very much

8 experience. What he told me was, "They collected me from the Avenija and

9 they put me in a uniform and ordered me to do this," and that is when my

10 husband told him, "Don't worry, son, we shall come out without a problem,

11 because on the 9th of May we've already had that kind of experience," and

12 on the 13th of May - how to put it mildly - it was natural for me to come

13 out without causing any trouble to those people because I think that this

14 young man wasn't really quite ready for that kind of task, that kind of

15 job, but there you are.

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] And you were shown the street --

17 when you were shown the plan to identify the street, you said that the

18 names of the streets have changed, that you were not able to find your way

19 around the map. How have these names of the streets changed, and have the

20 street names been now changed back again to their old ones? Do you hope

21 once you return to your apartment that that street will regain its old

22 name? How did the street names change?

23 A. Well, you know, the gentlemen changed the street names and called

24 them after their important historical figures. The street which was

25 called Kalimova and which all of us Mostarans know, including Mr. Stela,

Page 7099

1 or Petra Drapsina, now it's called Queen Katarina, and other streets, but

2 these are all the names which this, the current authority, gave those

3 streets. I suppose that even if I go back to my old apartment, I don't

4 think they will change the street name back to its old name again. I

5 think it will remain as it is called now.

6 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam. And I'd like to

7 congratulate you on the -- on your calm and on the serenity with which you

8 answered all our questions despite the drama, in spite of what you

9 experienced. Thank you very much.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Any questions as a result of the Judge's questions?

12 Mr. Scott.

13 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric.

15 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President. A few

16 questions.

17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Seric:

18 Q. Madam, what you have answered to Her Honour Judge Clark that

19 Vinko Martinovic tried to get your handbag, to snatch your handbag from

20 you and he kicked you in the back, can you explain why is it that you

21 never once mentioned it before in none of your statements?

22 A. Sir, counsel, believe me, these are horrible moments and I,

23 frankly speaking, tried to forget it.

24 Q. When you said that this Martinovic's soldier started towards your

25 neighbour to beat him or hit him or something and that Vinko Martinovic

Page 7100

1 then intervened, do you mean that he protected him?

2 A. Well, when this gentleman came out of the door, really, he was

3 very upset and he started for him and grabbed him. But this gentleman,

4 yes, he really said, "Leave him alone." He did say that.

5 Q. You mean Mr. Martinovic?

6 A. Yes, Mr. Martinovic. He really said that.

7 Q. Yesterday - perhaps there was a misunderstanding and perhaps the

8 transcript is not correct - but yesterday, speaking about this coffee bar

9 at the old Velez stadium, that it was called Kovacevic's, but the

10 transcript never says, and that is I did not understand you saying that

11 Mr. Martinovic was the owner of that coffee bar ever.

12 A. Sir, on the 16th of May, when I returned from the Heliodrom - and

13 Mr. Stela knows that - when I returned, Mr. Stela was there. I mean,

14 everybody in the town, everybody said that Mr. Stela was in

15 Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar, and every day when I started working, because

16 I --

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President --

18 A. After I had returned to work, I kept -- he was there all the

19 time. I saw him there all the time.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

21 MR. SCOTT: Not so much an objection, but if I might be allowed, I

22 think what's a bit confusing about the evidence about the coffee bar is

23 the word "ownership," because I think what the -- well, I don't know. I

24 think that is the issue. I think she just says -- she does not say that

25 Mr. Stela owned the coffee bar, and that's why she keeps going back to

Page 7101

1 this Serb, but whether he was operating or had taken control -- I think

2 it's the word "ownership," Your Honour, that's causing the confusion,

3 that's all.

4 JUDGE LIU: Let Mr. Seric continue his question about this coffee

5 bar.

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

7 Q. I will say to you, Vinko Martinovic says that he never owned - and

8 let me finish - that he never owned or that he was never in that coffee

9 bar, that he never ran it, that he never took it over, and if you

10 remember, throughout that time, it was Stojicic, called Buli, who ran this

11 coffee bar after Kovacevic all the time that he had rented it. What would

12 you say to this?

13 A. Sir, it does not mean anything to me because I do not know

14 Mr. Stojicic. Believe me, I do not know him. But Mr. Stela -- and it's

15 not only me, but in Mostar, in the city of Mostar, it is common knowledge

16 that Mr. Stela entered Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar. Who ran it, who was

17 the owner, I really don't know, but Mr. Stela, of course, can say what he

18 knows, but I'm telling you what I know.

19 Q. The name Mali Raj, Little Paradise, that was the name of the

20 coffee bar; does it ring a bell?

21 A. No, it doesn't.

22 Q. Well, that is the name of the coffee bar that the Martinovic

23 family owns. So what you are telling me is it is simply the grapevine, it

24 is the gossip which reached your ears; this is not what you're claiming?

25 A. I am saying that I saw Mr. Stela - Mr. Stela - in front of the

Page 7102

1 coffee bar, and that was almost on a daily basis, every day, as I would

2 come -- return from work. And everybody in the town -- and I do not know

3 whether it is his property or not, and as far as I'm concerned, it does

4 not really matter. But I do know that throughout this time, most Mostar

5 talked about Mr. Stela taking over Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar after he

6 left.

7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Vinko Martinovic run this coffee bar, that he

8 collected the bills, that he had some people under him who ran -- who

9 worked in that coffee bar or anything?

10 A. I really don't know about that. I really don't know that.

11 Q. Now, Her Honour Judge Diarra mentioned -- raised the issue of the

12 street. Do you know if the streets on the east -- in the east part of the

13 Mostar changed their names or did they keep their old names?

14 A. As far as I know -- believe me, as far as I know, the part of the

15 city in which I move still has the old names, and there is -- this is yet

16 another example, and a very little one[redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 Q. Are you then claiming that on the -- in East Mostar, not one

24 street changed its name?

25 A. Sir, I cannot really affirm that, because I do not move throughout

Page 7103

1 that eastern part. I move in that part where I live and work, and that

2 part -- in that part, all the streets have kept their old names.

3 Q. Do you know that Petar Drapsina was a communist revolutionary, one

4 of the leaders of the communist movement?

5 A. Well, I suppose so, seeing that the street was named after him.

6 Q. And are you surprised that the names of the streets were changed

7 in those cases where streets were named after communist leaders?

8 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I don't know. I don't think so, but I

9 don't know.

10 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE LIU: Judge Clark?

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE CLARK: Just arising out of those responses, we've heard a

14 lot during this case about a coffee bar, and I'm at sea. The name of this

15 coffee bar, Mr. Kovacevic's coffee bar, did it have a name on the front of

16 it, besides the owner's name?

17 A. Garo, Garo Kovacevic. What the coffee bar was called, I don't

18 know. I just know where it is. But I don't know really, because I never

19 frequented coffee bars.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Can you tell me the old address - I don't know if

21 the name has been changed - but the street on which this coffee bar was to

22 be found?

23 A. Don't ask me about the street itself, but the neighbourhood is

24 called Strelcevina. Just like my neighbourhood was called Dum, that

25 neighbourhood was called Strelcevina.

Page 7104

1 JUDGE CLARK: I'll have to look at the map. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us, for giving your

3 evidence. We all wish you good luck. The usher will show you out of the

4 room.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

8 Yes, Mr. Scott?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, only the marked version of P11.18,

10 whatever that next dash is.

11 THE REGISTRAR: 7.

12 MR. SCOTT: 7, yes, P11.18/7. Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Seric?

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No objections, and I would also like

15 to tender the same exhibit.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. This map is admitted into evidence. I

17 believe we should give it a double number on it.

18 Yes, Mr. Meek?

19 MR. MEEK: Mr. Naletilic has no objection, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Thank you.

21 Well, Mr. Scott, how about your next witness?

22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, and again, so we will take the next

23 witness -- next Bosniak witness, and Mr. Bos will be handling the witness.

24 JUDGE LIU: We have five minutes to break. Mr. Bos, will you

25 please brief us on the relevance of the testimony of that witness to the

Page 7105

1 indictment, as well as whether there is any protective measures you will

2 be requesting?

3 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, I can do that. This witness has

4 requested similar protective measures as the previous witness, so face and

5 voice distortion. Well, it's fortunately all set up so I don't think

6 that's too much of a difficulty.

7 And the evidence of this witness is relevant to the following

8 paragraphs in the indictment: the background, paragraphs 10 and 11;

9 general allegations, paragraphs 18, 19, 20 and 21; count 1, paragraphs 26,

10 27, 28, 30, 32, and 34(a) and (b); counts 2 to 5, paragraphs 35 through

11 38, and paragraph 40; counts 9 to 12, paragraphs 45, 49 and 50; and counts

12 13 to 17, paragraphs 51 and 52.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections to the protective

14 measures?

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours, thank you.

16 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So your request is granted. Did

18 you prepare a piece of paper?

19 MR. BOS: Yes, I have it right here.

20 JUDGE LIU: I see. What's the pseudonym for this witness?

21 MR. BOS: The pseudonym will be Witness XX. So I'll hand over the

22 sheet now to the registry.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 10 past 4.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 3.36 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

Page 7106

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Page 7107

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, could we have the next witness, please.

2 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour. Can you bring in the witness.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

7 accordance with the paper the usher is going to show you.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS XX

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please sit down.

13 Yes, Mr. Bos.

14 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Examined by Mr. Bos:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me?

17 A. Good afternoon. I can hear you well.

18 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has granted the protective measures

19 that you have requested, which means that your image will be distorted and

20 also your voice will be distorted and you will be referred to by a

21 pseudonym. The usher now will show you a piece of paper which has your

22 name on it and your pseudonym, and if you will just look at it and confirm

23 that it is your name.

24 A. Yes, this is my name.

25 Q. As you will see on the sheet of paper, you will be referred to as

Page 7108

1 Witness XX. Do you understand that?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. BOS: Now, Your Honours, for the first part of my examination,

4 I would like to go into private session.

5 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 [redacted]

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Page 7109

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Page 7110

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21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]

23 MR. BOS:

24 Q. Witness, what happened on the 9th of May, 1993? Where were you

25 and what happened on that day?

Page 7111

1 A. On the 9th of May, I was at home with my family, with my wife and

2 my daughter, and early in the morning, we were awakened by intense

3 explosions and shooting. Shortly after that, we heard on the radio a

4 statement by Jadranko Topic, called Cela, who stated that there was a

5 coordinated operation of the HVO underway which will be over soon and that

6 all the Bosniaks should hoist a white cloth as a sign of surrender.

7 Q. Witness, you stated that you were at home. Was your house at that

8 time in West or East Mostar?

9 A. In the west side of Mostar.

10 Q. Now, did this attack by the HVO, did this come as a surprise to

11 you?

12 A. Well, let me tell you, for the period of time, one could feel that

13 something could happen, but I really did not expect something of --

14 anything of that proportion. Otherwise, I would not have been there. I

15 would have taken my family, and also I would have gone myself somewhere,

16 where it was safer.

17 Q. Now, you've testified that a man named Jadranko Topic was on the

18 radio asking the Bosnians to actually put white cloths outside of the

19 window. First of all, who is Jadranko Topic?

20 A. Well, Jadranko Topic at that time was a high official in the HDZ.

21 I don't know his exact office, but one could say that he was the HDZ's

22 political figure number 1 in the town, at least as far as I knew.

23 Q. And did you follow the requests -- well, the request he made on

24 the radio to actually put a white sheet out of the windows?

25 A. Well, no. I thought that if I put out any piece of white cloth,

Page 7112

1 it would draw attention to me and my family. And that in that case,

2 perhaps my lot would have -- might be worse.

3 Q. Did you or any of your family members go out that day?

4 A. No. I dared not go anywhere.

5 Q. And did you find out whether any of your relatives who were also

6 living in that neighbourhood, did you find out what happened to them on

7 that day?

8 A. I didn't, at first, and we were very worried because both my wife

9 and I -- that is relatives of both my wife's and mine lived in the western

10 part of the town, and we didn't know what was going on. However, a Croat

11 friend of ours came to us and told us that my folk had started -- that

12 they were about to be detained, but that they had found shelter with

13 somebody else. However, my wife realised that some of her relatives were

14 gone, and her younger brother, too, that he was missing, and she returned

15 crying, and later on we found out that her mother and her younger brother

16 - and he was underage - had been taken to the Heliodrom.

17 Q. And do you know how long they had to stay there in the Heliodrom?

18 A. I think about a week, but after that, they dared not return to

19 their flat, and instead tried to manage with other relatives, hiding with

20 them. I'm talking about my mother-in-law and her son. My mother and

21 father were also there for a while, and they returned to their flat. That

22 is, they were hiding with their neighbours. Their neighbours helped them

23 and shielded them, and a few days later, when the situation calmed down

24 somewhat, they went back to their flat.

25 Q. Now, what did you do in the days following the 9th of May attack?

Page 7113

1 A. I dared not go out anywhere. I feared for my family and myself.

2 And I didn't know what was really going on. But so my family and I were

3 in the flat, fearful, waiting for somebody to come and take us. Whenever

4 we would hear some sound or something, we would panic and start dressing

5 quickly, because we thought that my daughter, my wife, might be expelled

6 and that I might be taken to prison or killed.

7 Q. And did, in this period, actually people try to get into your

8 apartment?

9 A. Several times somebody came to the doors of my flat, but we also

10 had some good neighbours, Croats. And one of those neighbours, several

11 times, twice, I think, prevented them because he was also a member of the

12 HVO. So he would go down the stairs and tell those people to go away. On

13 one occasion, some people who were drunk or maybe under drugs who came to

14 the doors and he asked -- and they wanted to ask me if I was with the

15 civil defence and then [redacted], told them that they had

16 nothing to look there for, and that they should go away, and they did.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

18 MR. BOS:

19 Q. Witness, the interpreters have requested if you could slow down

20 your pace a little bit so they can interpret more easily, and I would

21 request if that name can be redacted from the transcript.

22 Witness, try to refrain from mentioning any names unless I

23 specifically ask you to mention names, if you could.

24 Witness, what happened on the 30th of June, 1993?

25 A. On the 30th of June, 1993, there were all around arrests or,

Page 7114

1 rather, all people with Muslim, that is Bosniak names, were arrested. At

2 that time, there was fierce conflict between the BH army and the HVO.

3 That was at the time when the BH army had taken Bijelo Polje and the

4 northern camp.

5 Q. Were you also arrested on that day?

6 A. Yes. We all panicked. At home, my wife and daughter were

7 crying. Like other neighbours, that is, people who were Muslims, Bosniaks

8 in that same building, I was arrested and taken to the Heliodrom.

9 Q. Could you tell the Court what happened when you arrived at the

10 Heliodrom?

11 A. When we arrived at the Heliodrom, some of us were put in a school

12 at the Heliodrom in a room. I'm not sure, but I think that we were about

13 50. And that same evening, two young men came, and they were very young,

14 they could have been around 20. They started to ill-treat the prisoners.

15 I do not know the names. I do not know who they are to this day.

16 One of them entered with a cocked pistol and with this pistol, he

17 circled around the room until he could find somebody, I don't know what

18 was the criterion, and then he would take that person out of the room and

19 that man would be beaten then.

20 I know that two men were beaten in the same way, that is, with a

21 pistol pointing at them, they would be picked out. The third one wasn't

22 beaten because he told them, even though he was a Muslim, he was a member

23 of the HVO, and so they told him to get back into the room, and he wasn't

24 beaten on that occasion.

25 Q. Were you picked out on that evening as well?

Page 7115

1 A. No, I wasn't. Although, like all the other prisoners, I was

2 really scared because the pistol would go all over all of us and I --

3 nobody could be sure who would be picked out and who -- and taken out.

4 Q. This happened on the first evening. Did this happen more often

5 after you -- while you were detained at the school?

6 A. The ill treatment went on, of course not always in the same way.

7 In the school, very often we would be woken up late in the night,

8 sometimes around 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning. We all had to run out of

9 this room, run down the passage while not being allowed to look at the

10 guards, and the guards -- he struck some of us and there was a lot of

11 noise, and at times, when some of those guards were under the influence,

12 they would then force us to sing the Croatian anthem, some Ustasa songs

13 dating back to World War II when we were in this crowd, and that is how

14 they ill-treated us.

15 I also heard that on the ground floor, that is, I was told by

16 prisoners who were on the ground floor that above their heads, and I said

17 late at night when they would be trying to sleep, that they could hear a

18 round of fire, fired above their heads.

19 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Bos.

21 MR. BOS:

22 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Nenad Harmandzic?

23 A. I do or, rather, I knew him.

24 Q. Who is he and how did you know him?

25 A. May I answer? Are we in a closed session?

Page 7116

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Page 7117

1 MR. BOS: We may need to go into private session for this.

2 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

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Page 7118

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14 [redacted]

15 [Open session]

16 MR. BOS:

17 Q. Witness XX, how long were you kept in the school building?

18 A. Well, in the school building, I think I spent about a month

19 there. After that - and again I do not know on the basis of what criteria

20 - I was transferred to the central prison. I still don't know what were

21 the criteria for this, because in the central prison, there were some

22 elderly men and there was even a boy, an underaged boy, in the same room

23 with me.

24 Q. Now, where were you put in the central prison? Can you describe

25 the room and the persons you -- also the size of the room and the persons

Page 7119

1 you were with in that room?

2 A. That room was about 90 metres square, 90 to 100 metres square. We

3 were about 100 in that room. The conditions were horrible. If we wanted

4 to sleep, we were packed like sardines. If one wanted to turn, everybody

5 had to do that, or if somebody wanted to go to the toilet, he would have

6 to tread on other prisoners.

7 Q. How many toilets were there for this group of 100 detainees?

8 A. There was only one lavatory, and I can say that all our social

9 life in the prison consisted of washing, cleaning, but at times, we had to

10 wash ourselves by simply pouring water from one other -- from two Coca

11 Cola bottles. We simply could not get to the faucets, to the taps, and

12 that's why there was so many diseases in the prison. I know that once the

13 whole room was vacated and all the prisoners had to be sprayed. I think

14 that on one occasion scabies started to spread, and one man was affected,

15 and he had to be isolated for a while, but then he came back.

16 Q. What did you get for food?

17 A. It was very meagre. I lost some 15 kilograms during the first

18 month or so. Of morning, we would get a slice of bread and tea, and for

19 lunch, we were served some mixture, and we most of us couldn't -- I don't

20 think we could guess what that was. I would say those were just some

21 leftovers put and mixed together.

22 Q. Now, how were you treated in the central prison?

23 A. In the central prison, it was very difficult, especially because

24 next to our room were Croat detainees, that's those who were members of

25 the HVO, but I think they were proper criminals and drug addicts because

Page 7120

1 it often happened, how we, the prisoners, could see them walk past us with

2 the syringes in their hand and go towards the toilets where they were

3 being given shots or taking shots, and it was those prisoners who harassed

4 us most practically. They used to take people out and whatever they still

5 had with them, that is what had not been taken from them, watches or if

6 they had still some money hidden, they would search them and take it. And

7 we were offered no assistance, no help, from people who guarded us. On

8 one occasion, I remember how they threw a blanket into the room which was

9 on fire so the whole room could go on fire, and when we tried to put that

10 fire out, they began to throw some bottles at us. But I remember that the

11 fire -- that blanket went out all by itself.

12 Q. Do you recall any of the names of these HVO prisoners who were

13 there maltreating you?

14 A. I don't, but I know that one was called Splico - or other people

15 referred to him as Splico - said he was a member of the paramilitary

16 forces or something like that. He came from Split and he was a drug

17 addict. I remember a young man, he was one of them, and why had he been

18 detained, I don't know, but his nickname was Paraga, but I cannot say

19 positively whether he ill-treated anyone. He was near those people who

20 ill-treated us, but I did not see him ill-treat anyone, whereas this young

21 man nicknamed Splico participated very actively in the ill treatment of

22 the prisoners.

23 Q. Did you witness any of the maltreatment by Splico, and what did

24 you witness?

25 A. Well, yes. I can give you one example. Once we went for lunch

Page 7121

1 and those Croats -- those prisoners of Croat ethnicity searched all our

2 belongings, hoping to find something valuable and appropriating it. But

3 what they did was the -- they found identity cards, or rather the papers

4 of two policemen detained there and of the then lawful police of the

5 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when we came back from lunch, they

6 looked around, they tried to identify those men on the basis of the

7 photographs. They did in the case of one of them. They could not

8 recognise the other one fortunately, because he had lost too much weight,

9 and besides, some prisoners said that he had left, that he was no longer

10 there. So the one they could identify, they beat him badly, and this

11 young man that I already mentioned, who was nicknamed Splico, was very

12 active in that, and I think that on that occasion, a tooth was knocked

13 out, and he was pretty badly beaten. He was kicked and beaten with fists.

14 Q. Just one more question on these HVO prisoners. You said that they

15 were in a room adjacent to your room. What were the conditions in the

16 room that they were staying in?

17 A. Much better than ours, because they all had their own beds, they

18 had sufficient number of blankets, whereas we slept on the floor. Well,

19 some did have something to cover, some didn't. Some had some blankets,

20 some didn't. And I already told you how many of us were kept in that

21 room. I do not know how many of those Croat prisoners there were, but

22 every one of them had his own, had a bed to him, and enough room in that

23 cell.

24 Q. And did the guards of the Heliodrom do anything to prevent these

25 HVO prisoners of maltreating you and the other prisoners?

Page 7122

1 A. No, no. Absolutely nothing. They did absolutely nothing. I even

2 think that those prisoners were prodded to do it, because some other

3 colleagues imprisoned there said that they tried to defend themselves when

4 these ones were about to attack them, but they then shouted and made so

5 much noise and called to guards to -- saying that Muslims were beating

6 Croat prisoners, and then the guards entered and beat them. So they were

7 beaten rather than helped by the guards. I wasn't present on that

8 occasion. I heard that from other prisoners.

9 Q. Now, my really final question on this issue. Could you perhaps

10 describe the man you've been referring to as Splico?

11 A. Well, young. I mean he was young at that time, quite thin, about

12 185 centimetres tall. I don't think, however, I'd be able to recognise

13 him because -- now because it was a long time ago. I do not know anything

14 else about him. All I know is that that was the nickname.

15 Q. Witness, while you were at the Heliodrom, were you ever taken out

16 for labour?

17 A. Yes, a number of times.

18 Q. Which locations were you taken to when -- what did you have to do?

19 A. I was taken to different locations around town, Santiceva Street,

20 mostly along the separation lines or rather along the confrontation lines

21 between the HVO and the BH army, Santiceva Street, Bulevar, then next to

22 what used to be the department store, Hit department store, but it burnt

23 down. Then I was taken to the Buna, Laksevine, to Hodbina, that is to

24 different places.

25 Q. Could you, in general, describe the type of work you had to do in

Page 7123

1 these places?

2 A. Well, by and large we were made to dig trenches or make bunkers

3 for the HVO. In this way, it was trying either to hold on to the front

4 line or perhaps advance.

5 Q. Now, you've stated that you also worked at the Bulevar. How many

6 times did you work at the Bulevar?

7 A. Well, twice, at least. I am not quite sure, but I think it was

8 two or maybe even three or four times.

9 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 14.5, please.

10 Q. Witness, while the -- we get this exhibit, could you tell us if

11 you remember the times that you were taken to the Bulevar; do you remember

12 who took you to the Bulevar from the Heliodrom?

13 A. Mostly, it was the unknown men, members of the HVO in camouflage

14 uniforms. They would enter the room where we were staying and pointed at

15 us and they referred to us as pieces, they said, "We want 20 pieces, 30

16 pieces." They would just look at us. They were looking to find men who

17 were physically in better shape, even though occasionally they would also

18 take either the elderly or those who were infirm.

19 Q. Do you recall any names of the persons who actually picked you out

20 and took you to, in this case, to the Bulevar?

21 A. I don't remember the persons who were taking us there. For the

22 most part, I did not know them.

23 Q. Now, Witness, you're going to be shown a photograph which you may

24 want to put on the ELMO after you've had a look at it. What I would like

25 you to do is, first of all, do you recognise this photograph, what's

Page 7124

1 depicted on this photograph?

2 A. I do recognise it. It's the -- it's the Bulevar or the former

3 line of separation.

4 Q. Now, could you please, with the marker, indicate the actual

5 location where you worked when you were working at the Bulevar?

6 A. As far as I can recall, this was in this area here.

7 Q. Maybe with the pointer you can also indicate where you made the

8 mark because it may be a bit difficult to see.

9 A. [Indicates]

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, what was it that you have to do there,

11 that you had to do there?

12 A. We dug trenches and built bunkers for the HVO.

13 Q. And do you recall any particular incidents or incident while you

14 were working at the Bulevar?

15 A. Well, on one occasion, we were used as human shields because the

16 trenches were not dug as well as they should have. The prisoners were

17 told to line up and protect the HVO soldiers who were passing through that

18 trench. And that was one of the incidents, if you can call it an

19 incident.

20 Q. Now, in the area where you had to line up, was the area exposed in

21 the sense that the soldiers from the other side of the confrontation line

22 could actually hit you or shoot at you?

23 A. Yes. Well, that was exactly the reason for us being lined up in

24 that way because the members of the HVO probably expected that the members

25 of the ABiH would not shoot if they saw prisoners being lined up there

Page 7125

1 because we were all in civilian clothes.

2 Q. And did there -- in fact, was there any shooting while you were

3 lined up there?

4 A. At that time, no.

5 Q. Witness, do you recall for which HVO unit you were working while

6 you were working at the Bulevar?

7 A. I don't know the names of units; however, there were different

8 people there indeed who were members of the HVO. I know that there were

9 some persons who had -- I believe that there was a Canadian of Croatian

10 origin, there was one U.S., a dark man, and then there was a German. Some

11 of them also spoke in clear Croatian accent even though they did not wear

12 HV uniforms. For instance, one of them had a clear Dalmatian accent, but

13 I don't know exactly what the units were and what they were called.

14 Q. Do you recall any of the names of the HVO soldiers who were there

15 at the Bulevar while you were working there?

16 A. I remember. I remember some Bosniaks who were also with the HVO,

17 but for the most part these were men with criminal records. I know that

18 Benito Sesar was around there. I don't know if he was a member, but he

19 was there on one occasion. He came to the confrontation line on one

20 occasion. Senad Mahmutovic was also there. There was also a person named

21 Fadil, I think, Golos, nicknamed Cuni. I know that Senad Mahmutovic had a

22 criminal record. For this Cuni, they said that he was a drug user.

23 Q. Could you please spell the name of that last person you've been

24 referring to; is that a nickname or a full name?

25 A. Who are you referring to?

Page 7126

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Page 7127

1 Q. Cuni.

2 A. I believe Fadil Golos, as far as I can remember right now. This

3 is a long time ago, but I think it is, first name F-a-d-i-l, last name

4 G-o-l-o-s.

5 Q. And the nickname of this Fadil Golos was Cuni; am I correct in

6 understanding you?

7 A. Yes, I believe Cuni, C-u-n-i.

8 Q. Thank you. Witness, you also said that you worked at the

9 Santiceva Street. On how many occasions did you work there?

10 A. At least twice. Once we were there for three days. We were taken

11 to sleep to the Dzemal Bijedic University, and it was indeed very tough

12 working there, because we were taken there at gunpoint. We were making

13 bunkers and trenches for the HVO soldiers, and they were trying to extend

14 the line facing the ABiH, and also we feared that the ABiH soldiers could

15 also shoot at us because we were going into their territory and building

16 bunkers there. On several occasions, it happened to me that I had warning

17 shots flying near me, because I was in that area.

18 Q. Did you see prisoners get wounded at Santiceva street?

19 A. I know that one prisoner was wounded when I was around there,

20 because he was carried by me, and I saw him covered in blood. I don't

21 know exactly where he had been hit, but before this, there had been

22 firing.

23 Q. Witness, were you on one occasion also taken to Rastani? And when

24 was this?

25 A. I was taken to Rastani sometime around the 15th of September,

Page 7128

1 1993, also to perform labour, with a group of prisoners. I believe we

2 were about ten.

3 Q. What did you have to do and what happened there?

4 A. First off, I should say that we were guarded by the Protection

5 Platoon, and I have to say that they behaved correctly, but we were also

6 digging trenches there on -- at the confrontation line facing the army,

7 and I believe that on that occasion, one of the prisoners, I don't recall

8 his name now, had to carry mines into the Mostar hydro power plant. They

9 were to be deployed there in case that the ABiH decided to move and

10 advance on Rastani.

11 Q. And did the ABiH in fact move and advance into Rastani?

12 A. Yes, they did. I think that that was on the 20th. And on that

13 occasion, I was set free with -- along with this group of prisoners who

14 were working there.

15 Q. Now, what did you do when you were set free in Rastani?

16 A. We were there for a period of time, and then we crossed over to

17 the free territory. However, Rastani were counterattacked a day later and

18 retaken by the HVO.

19 Q. Do you know whether -- when the -- when there was a counterattack

20 again by the HVO, whether there were any prisoners involved in this

21 counterattack?

22 A. Later on, I heard that some prisoners had been pushed in front of

23 the HVO troops during the attack and that some of them were killed. I

24 don't know any names, but I know that on that occasion, some of those

25 prisoners managed to escape, that is to cross over to the free territory,

Page 7129

1 two persons whom I knew.

2 Q. Now, Witness, did you -- when you were set free, did you return to

3 East Mostar? Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 MR. BOS: Your Honour, for my last couple of questions, I'd like

6 to go into private session again, please.

7 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

8 [Private session]

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Page 7131

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3 [Open session]

4 JUDGE LIU: We'll have our break, about 25 minutes. We'll resume

5 at quarter to 6.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Are we going to have our witness?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, maybe I can make use of one moment.

10 The most important thing of course, at least I think so, is to finish the

11 witness as far as possible, and so if we can use that time to do so, that

12 would be my preference. But I did, as I said I would, I do have with me

13 the statements about the wooden rifles and photographs of the wooden

14 rifle, and we can either do that if we have time yet tonight or we can do

15 it in the morning, but I do want to make the Chamber, since I represented

16 to you that I would do it today, that it is available and if we have time,

17 we can do it this evening or we can do it tomorrow morning.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll do that after we finish with this

19 testimony of this witness.

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Please sit down, Witness. Any cross-examination? Mr. Par.

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. I am Zelimir Par, and I am one of the

Page 7132

1 Defence attorneys for Mr. Vinko Martinovic. I'm going to ask you a few

2 questions in relation to your evidence today.

3 Please, can you tell me, do you still work in the same job that

4 you said you had worked on previously?

5 A. I think that this was done in the closed session. I don't know if

6 you --

7 Q. We are in the open session, but I think you can say this now.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you involved in any activities in trying to determine the

10 cause of death of Nenad Harmandic?

11 A. Personally, I was not involved.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can go into the private

13 session just in case something comes up.

14 [Private session]

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14 [Open session]

15 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Who received you at the Heliodrom personally? I mean who was

17 that, which organisation? Was it the army? Was it the military police?

18 Who was it?

19 A. What I know is that those men had HVO uniform on, camouflage

20 uniforms. They were the ones who took us in and -- who took us to and

21 into the Heliodrom.

22 Q. And at the Heliodrom itself, there were some men who brought you

23 there and others received you there. Those who received you, you say that

24 they had HVO uniforms. Did they have white belts? Could you perhaps say

25 if they were military police?

Page 7139

1 A. I do not remember exactly if there were any white belts.

2 Q. And did you generally, during your stay at the Heliodrom, did you

3 see those guards wear any white belts? Or rather, could you see if the

4 Heliodrom was being manned, was being run, by the military police?

5 A. From time to time, I saw men who I could assume were military

6 policemen, but who they were exactly, I wouldn't really know. They were

7 guards there. They were prison guards, I do not really know what to call

8 them.

9 Q. Well, tell me, then, who was it that took your names down? Or did

10 anyone register you when you arrived at the Heliodrom? When you arrived

11 you were then registered by somebody. What was done next?

12 A. Yes, all our names were taken down. We were made to stand in a

13 line, and all our names were taken down.

14 Q. But my question was who did that? What did that person look

15 like? What are the circumstances, the impression you got? I can't really

16 make any guesses. Would you tell me what it looked like?

17 A. As far as I can remember, those persons wore camouflage uniforms.

18 I know the names of some of them. They were there at the time when the

19 names were being taken down. I do not know exactly who it was that

20 registered my name, but I know some of the men who were present there at

21 the time.

22 Q. No, I'm not interested in specific persons, I'm interested in the

23 procedure. You arrived where your name is taken down. What happens, how

24 does it go?

25 A. Nobody told us why our names were being taken down or why we were

Page 7140

1 there. Well, perhaps I could have understood because I was a member of

2 the police, for that reason. But as I told you, people were rounded up

3 from the buildings. I mean all the Bosniaks, regardless, and there were

4 people who -- I should say that the majority of them were not active in

5 any formation.

6 Q. Yes, we understand that, and we heard it in your testimony and in

7 the testimony of others, but what we are talking about now is not the

8 criteria on the basis of which they were brought there, but what was the

9 procedure? Who was in command? Do you know who was the commander?

10 A. No, I do not know that. I know that one person on one occasion

11 mentioned that he knew who that was but I just don't recall the name, that

12 he knew who was the warden there, but I don't remember.

13 Q. You see, I am asking you all this because I think that you are a

14 competent person in this regard because you found yourself in a situation

15 where you could observe, see, register, certain things better than some

16 others. And I'm asking you so that we could gain a picture from a person

17 who would know how to observe those things, who could see who was doing

18 what, who were the persons doing that. Was it the military police? Was

19 it a prison? Was it a camp? Whether there was some internal organisation

20 or something, in that sense, I meant if you could help us.

21 A. Well, I do not know if you think that I am more competent than

22 others to answer that. I think, however, that first of all, I was very

23 much afraid, and that I feared for my life all the time so that perhaps

24 now, if something happened -- if something like that happened to me again,

25 perhaps I would pay more attention to them now than I did then.

Page 7141

1 Q. Very well. And let's know about this labour duty. You have

2 arrived at the airport [as interpreted], you are there, and they take

3 you. Now, do they take your names down when you come back?

4 A. As far as I can remember, no, they did take no names down. No,

5 they didn't, or at least I didn't see them on some occasions.

6 Q. Would they take down the names of who has left and where?

7 A. Well, just as I have just told you. As far as I can remember, at

8 times they took our names down, at times they didn't.

9 Q. Why I am asking you this. Now, from the Heliodrom you go to a

10 unit. Do you feel -- do you go on feeling as if you were a prisoner of

11 the Heliodrom or have you become at that moment a prisoner of that unit?

12 Do you think that that is the extended arm of the Heliodrom when you are

13 there? Are you still a Heliodrom prisoner, sent to work as a Heliodrom

14 prisoner to a unit and brought back to those who have power over you, if I

15 can put it that way?

16 A. Believe me, I never gave it a thought at the time. The only thing

17 I thought about was how to survive.

18 Q. Yes, then. And now, now, you do have any idea, do you have any

19 knowledge about this or not? If not, then --

20 A. I don't know what the organisation was. I think I understand what

21 you're trying to ask me, but I do not know what was the organisation and

22 who was directly responsible for us, people who kept us there or people

23 who took us away. I really do not know that. I should say both.

24 Q. Very well. Now we are at the Heliodrom, and I'm talking about

25 Harmandic, that part of your testimony.

Page 7142

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] For a moment, could we go into private

2 session, please.

3 JUDGE LIU: We'll go into the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

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14 Q. I won't mention names or places. I only have one question. We

15 can do that, but I just -- yes, let us go back.

16 MR. BOS: I think we should go into private session for this.

17 It's a specific request from the witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go into the private session, please.

19 [Private session]

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Page 7150

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17 [Open session]

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Bulevar. You go to work on the Bulevar. You drew to us a place

20 where you were. You gave us the names of some people who were there. If

21 I noted that down correctly, the names was Benito Sesar, Senad

22 Mahmutcehajic?

23 A. Senad Mahmutovic.

24 Q. Senad Mahmutovic, Fadil Golos. So my question is: Do you know,

25 have any knowledge, if those persons whose names we have just mentioned

Page 7151

1 ere members of the Benko Penavic's unit commanded by Mario Milicevic,

2 Baja?

3 A. I do not know what unit they belonged to.

4 Q. I'm sorry that we received from the Prosecution information about

5 all these units. But Benko Penavic, the Prosecutor doesn't have it and

6 nobody else gave it for that particular unit, any document, so I cannot

7 show you any of these documents, but be that as it may, you don't know

8 that.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Witness, I do not have any more

10 questions.

11 Your Honours, I have finished my cross-examination.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination from Defence counsel

13 for Naletilic? Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that my

15 colleague has asked all the questions that the Defence of Mr. Mladen

16 Naletilic may have to ask so that I do not want to waste your time anymore

17 with any cross-examination on our part. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Any re-examination?

20 MR. BOS: No, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from the Judges?

22 Judge Clark.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE CLARK: I just want to ask you if this is something that you

25 know as a citizen of Mostar: If someone makes a complaint about criminal

Page 7152

1 activity against a person on the west side, who investigates that?

2 A. Right now in Mostar -- are we in a closed session? At present,

3 there are six --

4 MR. BOS: I don't think we are in closed session.

5 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

6 [Private session]

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21 [Open session]

22 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra.

23 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Regarding your work on the front lines, you told us that you were

25 used as a kind of a wall, as a kind of a screen to protect HVO fighters

Page 7155

1 because the latter thought that the BH army, when they saw you, would

2 abstain from fire because you were wearing civilian clothes.

3 Now, I did not expect you to tell us what the HVO combatants

4 thought when they put you in front of them. What I should like to know,

5 rather, is how did things happen specifically? Were you there to receive

6 the bullets fired by the army across the street or did your presence there

7 actually dissuade the BH army from attacking? What happened? Were you

8 really a screen or what happened, or was it really to prevent others from

9 shooting?

10 A. I can say that we were made to be human shields so that they could

11 pass securely. I think that they were expecting the members of the ABiH

12 not to shoot or, if they did shoot, that we would be hit first and then

13 they would have enough time to take cover. I don't know what I thought,

14 but I think that that may have been the line of thinking that they were

15 pursuing.

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Yes. But this human shield, this

17 is something that we heard about and this is the first time that we heard

18 that it was a means of dissuasion, that is, a means used to dissuade an

19 army from opening fire.

20 A. I really don't know what thoughts went through the minds of the

21 people who did that. I don't know whether it was to prevent people from

22 shooting or to -- us take the bullets. It could have been one of the

23 reasons, at least this is what I heard later on.

24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?

Page 7156

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Page 7157

1 Yes, Mr. Par.

2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Par:

3 Q. [Interpretation] My colleague just asked me if the witness could

4 clarify that there are a number of war criminals who still have not been

5 persecuted. Was he referring to persons of all ethnic groups?

6 A. Of course I was referring to persons of all ethnic groups.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for coming here to give us

8 testimony. We wish you good luck in your future.

9 The usher may take you out of the room.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos.

12 MR. BOS: I'd like to tender two exhibits for this witness. First

13 one is Exhibit 14.5/10. The other exhibit is Exhibit 11.18/8 under seal,

14 the second, the 11.18/8.

15 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections?

16 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

17 MR. KRSNIK: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. Those two documents

19 will be admitted into evidence under seal.

20 Mr. Scott, are you ready for your next witness?

21 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. We've, I think quite pleasantly,

22 ended a bit early, but actually it would give me the time, if the Chamber

23 will allow, to address some of these other matters and then we can start

24 with the next witness first thing in the morning.

25 Your Honour, concerning -- I was looking for the pseudonym of the

Page 7158

1 one witness. If I could just have one moment, I'm about to get it.

2 Your Honour, concerning the request the Chamber made for

3 statements concerning a witness who -- it was Witness QQ, there was an

4 incident in the courtroom, and Your Honour, Mr. President, you directed

5 that an inquiry be made into that. I have provided that -- those

6 statements to counsel already, just this afternoon, but I also will tender

7 -- I will also tender three copies, Your Honours, to the Judges and one

8 copy for the Registrar. Obviously, these will have to be filed under

9 seal, but I expect this is what the Chamber requested. I'm assuming that

10 you wanted these to be provided not only to counsel but to the Court. So

11 that's the -- I'm operating on that assumption. And again, for the

12 record, this is concerning Witness QQ and should be received under seal,

13 please.

14 JUDGE LIU: Could Madam Registrar give a number to this document?

15 MR. SCOTT: I just provided -- perhaps for identification

16 purposes. We are not making it an exhibit. And again, Mr. President, I

17 guess I'm looking -- perhaps if I'm doing something contrary to what the

18 Court intended, but I thought -- this is what I contemplated the Chamber

19 had asked us, to take this statement and provide it to the Chamber. We

20 don't -- we are not tendering it as evidence as such but simply making a

21 report back to the Chamber, on your instructions.

22 JUDGE LIU: I know at least it should have an ID number so that we

23 could find those documents in the future.

24 MR. SCOTT: I agree with you, Mr. President.

25 Secondly, Your Honours, I can also tender now to Your Honours and

Page 7159

1 to counsel -- and again I'm operating on the same assumptions. This is

2 not evidence, but to respond to the Court's direction, I can now provide

3 statements from Witness -- follow-up statements concerning Witness PP,

4 which I will tender at this time and should be again, please, placed under

5 seal. As soon as these have been distributed, I'll make a few comments,

6 but I'll deal with the distribution first. Counsel -- I think counsel --

7 no, counsel needs them as well.

8 I'll say, for purposes of the translation booth, I don't think it

9 will be necessary -- I don't think anyone is going to be making extensive

10 reference to these documents that we are now distributing at this time,

11 but if it becomes necessary, I will.

12 I'm also tendering, Mr. President, the supplemental statement of

13 Witness OO, which again should be, please, received under seal. In fact,

14 I believe, if I'm not mistaken, concerning Witness OO, there are two

15 statements. I should also state for the record, B/C/S versions have also

16 been provided. But I think with Witness OO, there are actually two

17 statements stapled together as one packet, but there are two related items

18 on that, so there is no confusion.

19 And then finally, Your Honours, I'm happy to tender to Your

20 Honours and to counsel a set of photographs, and again ask that these be

21 marked, at the moment only for identification, as are the -- as the other

22 statements as well, the statements that we've just handed out.

23 Mr. President, and again for the Witness PP statements and the

24 Witness OO statements, I think, to be consistent, I agree, Mr. President,

25 they should also be given numbers just for identification.

Page 7160

1 At the moment, Mr. President, I'm tendering these, again, the

2 photo -- what's been -- the packet that has the photos can again be made

3 -- be given an identification number for now. One of the things I'll ask

4 the Chamber, if the Chamber cares to give me guidance, I suppose you don't

5 have to, but Chamber might care to give us some additional guidance as to

6 what its thinking is on this matter, and I can give a further report at

7 the moment, but I was just dealing with all the procedural regularities

8 first. But the photo album consists of a number of photographs, and let

9 me say that the investigation so far -- and I realise, fully realise, that

10 what I'm about -- what I'm saying is not evidence, of course, and I don't

11 mean to suggest it is. I'm simply making a report to the Chamber on the

12 investigation that I understand the Chamber directed us to undertake.

13 This is not the rifle -- we do not believe in the investigation so

14 far that this is the rifle that was referenced by Witness OO. I'm sorry

15 if this gets a bit confusing, but I'll try to make it as simple as

16 possible. We do not believe so far that this is the rifle that had been

17 associated with Witness OO. We submit that it is likely - but again not

18 -- we are not certain - that it is likely a rifle associated with the

19 Witness PP.

20 You will see that, as it's been described by various witnesses, if

21 the Chamber has the photographs out of the packet, there are different

22 views of the rifle. I won't go through all of them individually. There

23 are some, looking at the photograph, next to a person showing their leg,

24 to give the Chamber some scale, both sides of the rifle. There is one

25 photograph with the rifle turned, if you will, to show its thinnest

Page 7161

1 dimension, the narrow -- showing the width or thickness of the rifle, I

2 suppose. And others showing different portions of the rifle.

3 I'll just stop on two -- the two, I think, toward the end. The

4 Chamber will have this version on which various markings have been placed

5 which shows the dimensions of the rifle, and on this larger version, you

6 will have then the rifle on both sides.

7 Based on the inquiries that have been made so far, Mr. President,

8 this does not appear to be a rifle that -- there was a reference to a

9 rifle being in a museum. We do not believe that that is this rifle. But

10 subsequent to the matter coming up in court, the inquiries were made and

11 this rifle was found, which we submit, we think, on the current

12 information available to us, is likely the rifle associated with

13 Witness PP.

14 Now, as I said, I don't know exactly what the Chamber's views

15 might be, in terms of what -- where it would like to go with this in terms

16 of witnesses being recalled or further inquiries being made, and I'm not

17 suggesting that you need to give me any additional guidance this evening,

18 or at all for that matter. Of course, I'm in the Chamber's hands, but,

19 Your Honour, I wanted to report that the Prosecution had sought to fulfil

20 the instructions that you gave us and have made this report to you and

21 Your Honour Judge Clark and Your Honour Judge Diarra. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. We believe that you made great

23 efforts in this respect. But the one question I want to ask before

24 Mr. Seric, whether you have made any efforts to get that rifle in the

25 museum yet, because that wooden rifle was specifically mentioned by that

Page 7162

1 witness.

2 MR. SCOTT: The answer is yes, but we've not been able to locate

3 it at this point. Not sure that it's still where it once -- people once

4 thought it was, but we are still making additional inquiries.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

6 Mr. Seric?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Based on

8 the words that you used when you addressed the Prosecutor, I see that we

9 are on the same wavelength. That is precisely what I was about to say,

10 that the rifle, this rifle, which was one of the elements on which we

11 could verify the statement of this witness, should have been here and

12 should have been in that museum beforehand, as you very accurately put it,

13 Mr. President. So if -- we want to see that rifle, if that is the rifle

14 that is specifically mentioned by this witness, we want to be able to

15 analyse it, and we would like to have that rifle be tendered into evidence

16 in a proper way, through this proper witness or a proper statement, and we

17 also want to be able to properly cross-examine this witness or statement

18 on that point.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honour. These are

21 supplemental statements, and all these statements, in the view of the

22 Defence, cannot be entered into evidence before they have been properly

23 tested, verified, in cross-examination.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, as I understand, the Prosecutor has no intention

25 to tender these into the evidence at this stage. They just act in

Page 7163

1 accordance with orders from this Trial Chamber. The purpose for giving

2 each a number is just for the identification. They are not the evidence,

3 at least at this moment.

4 Having said that, Madam Registrar will give a proper number, that

5 is the ID number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Okay. The first statement, which is statement of

7 QQ, will be ID 3. The next statement, which is statement of PP, is ID 4.

8 Under seal?

9 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Under seal. The next statement of OO is ID 5, and

11 that also is under seal.

12 The series of photographs are as follows: The first page which

13 describes the rifles, which is document number 02132831, is ID 6. The

14 next exhibit, which is PB-KA-01, is marked as ID 6.1. The next exhibit

15 PB-KA-02, ID 6.2. PB-KA-03 is ID 6.3. PB-KA-04 is ID 6.4. PB-KA-05 ID

16 6.5. PB-KA-06 is 6.6, ID 6.6. PB-KA-11 is ID 6.7. PB-KA-12 is ID 6.8.

17 The last, which is the fold out. PB-KA-09/10/11 is 6.9, that is

18 ID 6.9.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We will resume at 9.30.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE LIU: We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning in

22 Courtroom I.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

24 at 6.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday

25 the 7th day of December, 2001, at

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