Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7249

1 Monday, 10 December 2001

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor, are you ready for your next witness?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, I'm ready.

10 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures?

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. The witness who is called to testify now

12 requested the following protective measures, which has become traditional

13 now: pseudonym and facial distortion. The motivation is the same reasons

14 of securities.

15 His testimony is supposed to go mostly to the following parts of

16 our indictment: background, paragraph 7, 11; superior authority,

17 paragraph 17, 14; general allegations, paragraphs from 18 through 21;

18 count 1, paragraphs 26, 27, 30, 31, 34(a), (b), (d); counts 2 through 5,

19 paragraph 35 through 38; count 21, paragraph 57.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are there any objections?

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

22 MR. MEEK: None, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Your request is granted.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. Of course, while our

25 witness is on the move, I would like the Trial Chamber for permission just

Page 7250

1 maybe to lead in some irrelevant issues because our witness statement --

2 our prior -- our witness's prior statements are very comprehensive and

3 some parts are quite irrelevant to our case but we cannot just throw them

4 away from his story.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have to remind you that we have to finish this

6 witness today because this is the last day for this year. We could not

7 afford to have a witness under oath for a long time.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. It's also for this very reason that I will

9 skip some parts and maybe I will go through quickly through several parts.

10 JUDGE LIU: How long do you expect that --

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I expect this witness to testify for about one

12 hour and 30 minutes maybe. But this is maximum, I think.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

18 accordance with the paper the usher is going to show you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS YY

22 [Witness answered through interpreter] .

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

24 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. You may proceed.

25 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

Page 7251

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness. Good morning.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Your request for protective measures has been granted by the Trial

4 Chamber. Now you will have a pseudonym and you will be called Witness YY

5 in this courtroom. You also will have face image distortion. In some

6 parts of your testimony, perhaps we'll ask the Trial Chamber to go into

7 private session.

8 Now, you will be given a piece of paper with some name written on

9 it. Please look at it and read it. If this is your name and the spelling

10 is correct, date of birth is correct, just say "yes" without reading it

11 aloud. Okay?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Witness YY, we'll go straight to the point of what

14 happened in Mostar on the 9th of May in the area where you lived. I mean,

15 9th of May, 1993.

16 A. On 9th of May, early in the morning, I was awakened by shooting,

17 intense shooting, which could be heard in the city. I turned on the

18 radio, and on the radio, people of Bosniak ethnicity were called to put

19 out a white cloth in the sign of surrender and nothing would happen to

20 them. And there were also Croat nationalist songs being broadcast.

21 Q. On behalf of whom was that statement made? Do you remember?

22 A. On behalf of the HVO.

23 Q. And what happened to you and to your family on that day?

24 A. During the morning, three HVO soldiers entered the apartment where

25 I was living. They searched the apartment, and they ordered me to come

Page 7252

1 out in front of the building. There were some other persons there

2 alongside with me, and then they took us to the Velez stadium in a van.

3 In the stadium itself there were a lot of people, including women

4 and children. And several hours later, they took us from the stadium to

5 the Heliodrom.

6 Q. Just -- I would like to clarify one question: Before you were

7 taken from your apartment, did they take over your keys?

8 A. Yes, they did.

9 Q. Did they explain to you why you were supposed to leave your flat,

10 your apartment?

11 A. They were armed. They had automatic rifles, and that was a very

12 strong argument.

13 Q. Were you a civilian at that time?

14 A. Yes, I was.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Maybe for some minutes, Your Honour, we could go

16 now into private session.

17 JUDGE LIU: We'll go to the private session, please.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

19 Q. Do you know any other --

20 JUDGE LIU: Wait, wait.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry. Sorry.

22 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the private session.

23 [Private session]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Now we're in the open session, please.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

15 Q. Witness, what did you observe at the stadium area? What

16 categories of people were gathered there?

17 A. There were several categories of people there, including the

18 elderly, including the women, including even small children, infants,

19 there were even some of those. In other words, all categories were

20 included.

21 Q. How many people, in your estimate, were taken from the stadium to

22 Heliodrom? If you can, you can. Just an approximate figure, of course.

23 A. It is very difficult to say, but at the Heliodrom, there were

24 certainly several thousand people who were brought there.

25 Q. Were all the buildings of Heliodrom occupied by prisoners on that

Page 7255

1 day?

2 A. Several buildings. I wouldn't be able to say whether all the

3 buildings were occupied by them, but several buildings, yes.

4 Q. In which building were you kept?

5 A. I was in the building which they referred to as the central

6 building, and I was on the first floor. In fact, it's not the first

7 floor. It is the ground floor where I was.

8 Q. Witness, the Trial Chamber has already been informed that on the

9 13th of May, Heliodrom prisoners were registered by the Red Cross, and on

10 the 19th of May, after General Morillon visited Heliodrom, most of the

11 prisoners were released. So I will not ask you questions on this issue.

12 I just would like to know if you were released along with other prisoners

13 on that day.

14 A. No, I was not released on the 19th of May. Simply put, release

15 took a while, and General Morillon left, and I was not released with a

16 number of other prisoners. And our names were read out, we were separated

17 out, and we were taken back to one of these rooms in the Heliodrom.

18 Q. How many prisoners were not released from Heliodrom on that day?

19 A. 102 prisoners were not released. I know the exact numbers because

20 we had to all sign, and I know that we were separated into two groups of

21 51 each, so that a total of 102 prisoners that I know of were not

22 released.

23 Q. Did they explain to you why - I mean not you personally but other

24 prisoners as well - why they did not release you?

25 A. No. Of course, they did not give any explanations to anyone.

Page 7256

1 However, I believe - and later on it turned out - that we were all of an

2 age which made us able-bodied men.

3 Q. Where did they take you from Heliodrom to?

4 A. From the Heliodrom, my group was taken to Ljubuski.

5 Q. How many people, prisoners, were taken from Heliodrom to Ljubuski?

6 A. Fifty-one prisoners were taken from the Heliodrom to Ljubuski, but

7 there were other prisoners in Ljubuski who had been there from before.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I would ask you to go into private

9 session for some minutes now.

10 JUDGE LIU: We will go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

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Page 7259

1 [Open session]

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

3 Q. Witness, as it follows from your prior witness statements, at some

4 point in mid-June, you were returned to Heliodrom, stayed there for a

5 certain period of time, and then you were transferred to Dretelj.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber about this period of time. First

8 of all, how many prisoners were taken there from Heliodrom, and how long

9 did they keep them there?

10 A. First the group of 51 of us went from Ljubuski. And that is not

11 only them but some others who were in Ljubuski on the 1st July. As far as

12 I know, all these prisoners were transferred to the Heliodrom from

13 Dretelj.

14 One day before that, there were combat operations going on

15 throughout Mostar, at the northern camp and the Bijelo Polje bowl which

16 the ABiH liberated.

17 Q. Could you briefly inform the Trial Chamber about the conditions of

18 detention of prisoners in Dretelj?

19 A. In Dretelj, the conditions were very tough. I know that for a

20 period of time - I think around the 13th of July - they kept us without

21 food for three days and for two days without water, and there were also

22 frequent beatings of the prisoners. Certain HVO soldiers were coming to

23 several structures where I was, and they beat prisoners. They beat on one

24 occasion too. They were firing from machine-guns at the height of about

25 1 metre, and it was a tin -- corrugated metal wall, and some people

Page 7260

1 were -- some people were wounded. I was also hit by a piece of debris and

2 slightly grazed. So the conditions were very difficult.

3 Q. Witness, is it correct that about 18th, 20th of July you were

4 taken back to Heliodrom and then for some period of time you were

5 transferred to the area of Doljani and Sovici?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was your task in Doljani and Sovici?

8 A. Our task was - in this area, that is - to assist in building

9 fortifications, and also because there had been fighting there between the

10 ABiH and the HVO. Before that, we assisted in recovering the HVO soldiers

11 who were killed, and we also dug graves for them.

12 Q. Is it correct that somewhere towards the end of August, you were

13 taken from Heliodrom to Vojno?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber what kind of

16 detention unit Vojno was.

17 A. Unlike the Heliodrom where the ICRC also came, this was a facility

18 where the Red Cross did not come, that is, they did not have access

19 there. In this camp, people who were kept included the civilians, women

20 and children, and the conditions were very difficult. They were very

21 difficult.

22 Q. And who was in charge of Vojno detention facility?

23 A. The person in charge, obviously it was under the HVO control, I

24 think it was -- that the 2nd Brigade was in charge, and Mario Mihalj was

25 the commander of this camp. And what I would also like to point out in

Page 7261

1 that regard was that there were also members of the Croatian army present

2 there, and that's when I -- where I saw them for the first time.

3 Q. How do you know that they were from the Croatian army?

4 A. I know because they had the HV insignia. "HV" stands for the

5 Croatian army. And also, we were on one occasion lined up by a man who

6 was probably some officer of the Croatian army. And the reason why I'm

7 saying this was that he criticised the HVO. He said, "You from the HVO

8 only shoot. You are wasting ammunition," while the other side was not

9 doing this. And his accent was not from this area. I believe he could

10 have come from Slavonia.

11 Q. When did they retain you to Heliodrom after Vojno?

12 A. I stayed there some two weeks at Vojno, and I was returned, I

13 think, sometime in the early days of September.

14 Q. Witness, did you ever perform any labour in Mostar? I mean the

15 town of Mostar.

16 A. Yes, several times, but most of the time I spent working at

17 Stela's.

18 Q. You just named a person named Stela. Had you known him before you

19 were taken to work for him?

20 A. Well, yes, because in the beginning of the war, that is, in 1992,

21 he was a HOS commander, H-O-S commander, so that I saw him then.

22 Q. Do you know his real name?

23 A. Vinko Martinovic, called Stela.

24 Q. Do you know what kind of position he occupied in 1993 when you

25 were taken to Mostar to work for him?

Page 7262

1 A. He commanded Vinko Skrobo unit, and he was usually called either

2 "Colonel" or "General." Men used to use both these ranks.

3 Q. Vinko Skrobo, do you know what stands for this name?

4 A. I don't. It's a Croat name, so he's a Croat, but I don't know who

5 or what he is.

6 Q. Don't you remember any famous Croats from, let's say, the former

7 Yugoslavia history?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I think this is rather leading. The

10 witness said he didn't know, so why lead him in this manner?

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, it is a leading question. You may skip this

12 question.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Okay, Your Honour.

14 Q. Do you know what kind of unit was it, Vinko Skrobo?

15 A. Well, that was an ATG unit, and it made part of the Convicts

16 Battalion from Siroki Brijeg.

17 Q. Part of the Convicts Battalion. Do you know who Stela's commander

18 was?

19 A. Why, that was Tuta.

20 Q. How do you know that?

21 A. Once - I think it was in November - Mr. Martinovic went to attend

22 a meeting at Tuta's, and on that occasion, somebody fired at him. That

23 is, on his way, he was fired at. And soldiers from that unit talked about

24 that, and that is how I heard it.

25 Q. What kind of uniform did Stela's soldiers have?

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Page 7264

1 A. There were different uniforms. There was the conventional

2 camouflage uniform, then also green -- I mean completely green, rather

3 light-green uniform, and some also had black uniforms.

4 Q. You just told the Trial Chamber that soldiers used to address

5 Stela as "Colonel" or "General." Did he have the insignia of a colonel or

6 a general?

7 A. No, he didn't, or at least, I never saw anything like that.

8 Q. Do you remember where you were taken first to perform job for that

9 unit? I mean Vinko Skrobo unit.

10 A. Yes. We were brought to the garage; that is where we were put

11 up. In the morning, we were assigned tasks, and I and several other

12 persons were taken to the front line, to the -- where they held their

13 positions. That was next to the Health Centre.

14 Q. Let's talk about the garage first. Where was that garage

15 located?

16 A. It was on Kalemova Street. And these are buildings across the

17 street from the command of the Vinko Skrobo unit. The first -- no, the

18 second building, across the street.

19 Q. Have you ever been inside of that building? I mean the building

20 that was used for the headquarters.

21 A. Yes. Once, if I remember well, I went there. They held a small

22 area where they stored weapons, and I think I had to get something there.

23 Q. When did you see that building last?

24 A. It could have been about 15 days ago, except that it looks

25 completely different now. I mean, it's been renovated.

Page 7265

1 Q. If I show you a picture of the building, perhaps you could

2 identify it.

3 A. Perhaps. I don't know.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like usher -- our witness to be shown

5 Exhibit number 15.2.

6 A. This building has three large letters, "HVO." So there are these

7 three letters, "HVO," and I did -- I did see it quite recently, and there

8 is always somebody there, and it is this HVO building.

9 Q. But is it the same building that was used as headquarters by Vinko

10 Skrobo's unit?

11 A. This building was redone, rebuilt completely. But that's where,

12 beforehand, was the building which housed the Vinko Skrobo command.

13 Q. For example, could you tell me what has changed in the building,

14 in the shape of the building?

15 A. Well, it would be easier to say what hasn't changed, because

16 practically everything is changed. The facade is different. The entrance

17 was not from this side. It looks completely different now. The entrance

18 was on the other side, and so on.

19 Q. Thank you, Witness.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: You may take it away.

21 Q. Witness, how long did they keep you in garage?

22 A. Well, I was there between the 21st of September, 1993 until early

23 December that year. All the time I spent at Stela's, and all the time,

24 except for the first ten days, I spent in the garage. The first ten days

25 or a fortnight, I was at the front line -- I mean in a -- in the Health

Page 7266

1 Centre building.

2 Q. Let's move to the Health Centre building now. Do you remember

3 that area now?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. When did you see it last?

6 A. Well, I went there every day. I passed through that area every

7 day twice, twice every day.

8 Q. Has it changed much since 1993?

9 A. Well, that area was renovated. Three buildings are as they were,

10 except that they were done up and slightly changed. There is a new

11 building, and a part of the old building was demolished, but you could say

12 that practically all the buildings are still there.

13 Q. Did you see Stela on the confrontation line area?

14 A. Well, yes, a number of times. I saw him in that area and also at

15 the headquarters at the main command.

16 Q. Did he give you any orders?

17 A. Now and then. Now and then he would be the one who would assign

18 people to places, saying, "You're going there. You are going here," and

19 so on.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Now, usher, I would like you to show the

21 Witness YY Exhibit number 14.5.

22 Q. Witness, do you recognise the area depicted in the picture?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Would you inform the Trial Chamber which buildings in that area

25 were occupied or were used by Vinko Skrobo unit?

Page 7267

1 A. Yes, I can do that.

2 Q. I would like you to point it with the pointer.

3 A. This building here, this one, this one, this one, and this one

4 is -- looks now completely different than in 1993. So it is this area

5 here. Those -- this was the area under Vinko Skrobo unit.

6 Q. Witness, let's begin with the first building indicated by you.

7 Take a marker and just put number "1" on this building.

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. What did they have in that building?

10 A. In this -- in that building, they had beds and a dormitory on the

11 ground floor and a place where coffee was made. On the upper floor was a

12 machine-gun nest; that is, it was a combat position. And between the two,

13 in the mezzanine, was a room where we slept for about ten days.

14 Q. You said "dormitory." Do you mean dormitory for soldiers or for

15 prisoners?

16 A. Like this. In the basement, in the cellar, was the place where

17 soldiers slept, those who were on -- who had been assigned to the front

18 line and who -- therefore, some were at guard posts and others rested. As

19 for me and other prisoners - and we were 14 - we were in the mezzanine, or

20 rather, on the first floor, and there was a room where we slept.

21 Q. Okay. Let's go across the street now. The big building that was

22 indicated by you, put number "2" on it, please.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. What was that building used for?

25 A. In that building, there was another combat position. On the upper

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Page 7269

1 floor, we had to make small openings which could be used by snipers. And

2 we also removed the floor, the parquet, because it -- and it was used to

3 heat the building, as fuel wood.

4 Q. Okay. Let's now go back to the medical centre itself. Put number

5 "3" on it.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Do you know if that building was rebuilt, or does it keep its

8 previous shape?

9 A. More or less, yes.

10 Q. Was it rebuilt or keeps the previous shape?

11 A. Well, more or less the same shape now. Whether every detail is

12 there, whether every door is there, I wouldn't really know.

13 Q. And what did they have in that building, in building number 3?

14 A. They had their bunkers and guard posts in that building.

15 Q. Did you make some job in that building?

16 A. Yes. In this area, we fortified -- I mean, we filled bags with

17 sand or earth and carried them to fortify the positions held by the

18 soldiers, and some other positions as well, which were not manned, and we

19 would fortify those areas too with sandbags.

20 Q. We have not finished with the buildings yet. You have indicated

21 before one more building.

22 A. Yes, yes, I did, yes.

23 Q. Yes. Put a number "4" on it.

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. And again, I would like you to explain for what purposes was that

Page 7270

1 building used.

2 A. That building, this is a new building. The one that was there

3 before was -- faced in a different direction, 90 degrees. So this is a

4 new building. But in that earlier building, they also had a guard post.

5 And between buildings 1 and the building that was in place of the building

6 number 4, they also -- because this place was well-shielded, and they

7 sometimes launched their rockets from there.

8 Q. Was Vinko Skrobo the only unit that was in charge of Bulevar?

9 A. No. There were some other units too, but this one held this area

10 which I've marked with numbers. Tuta north and Tuta south. But there

11 were some other units.

12 Q. Do you know the names of those units?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. Okay. And what kind of job did you perform on the confrontation

15 line?

16 A. As for these jobs, that is, jobs involving fortification, well, we

17 filled those bags with sand, fortified those positions. And on the front

18 line itself, in those early days, we made coffee for soldiers. And at the

19 same time, we performed a number of jobs for soldiers in that unit, in

20 flats around Mostar, that is, we were taking out furniture, household

21 appliances, and other things of value.

22 Q. Okay. I would like to take away this exhibit for a moment, and

23 we'll pass on to another one. My next exhibit will be P11.18.

24 A. If I may add, I'd like to say something else that I did on this

25 front line. It was sometime in late September. At that time, a rather

Page 7271

1 large group of Bosniaks was expelled across this area, from the west into

2 the east side, and since a large number -- a large quantity of clothing

3 had remained behind them, the next day, a soldier, Solaja, ordered me to

4 go through this large pile of clothes, or rather, check the hems of those

5 clothes, I presume thinking that people had hidden money or perhaps some

6 other valuables that they had sewn into those hems, so that I, and later

7 on he joined me, and we went over all the hems and seams of those clothes,

8 but we didn't find anything.

9 Q. So we must return to our Exhibit 14.5.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like usher to place it on the ELMO.

11 Q. Could you indicate on the map the route those civilians were

12 moving across the confrontation line?

13 A. Yes, I can, yes. So they would come from behind building 2 and

14 take this route.

15 Q. I would like you to take the marker and just to put some dotted

16 line showing the way they were moving.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Okay. Just you should put an arrow in the end of their route

19 indicating the direction they were moving.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Was it the only occasion that you saw civilians crossing the

22 confrontation line?

23 A. I can tell you about that period of time. There was an incident

24 one night when one of the soldiers came and woke us up and we went to

25 behind building number 2. There was a broken truck, a truck which

Page 7272

1 wouldn't move, so we had to push it, and eventually it started off. And

2 on that occasion, we saw a large number of people who were there.

3 After that, we returned. And of course I couldn't fall asleep

4 immediately after we returned and nor could all those others. So what we

5 heard was how -- well, they usually shouted, "Balija, those, your men for

6 you," and would let them go. And in the morning, one could see large

7 number -- large quantities of clothes and bags and all sorts of things.

8 And there was another incident, and that was again sometime around

9 that time when in the afternoon -- one afternoon, and I was doing

10 something - I don't know exactly what - and two elderly men and two women

11 came, arrived. They checked their documents, and one of those men who was

12 of quite -- he was elderly, but he was under 60. That is what the soldier

13 said. So they let those other three go and took this one somewhere.

14 Q. Let's return for the moment to the first -- to the first group of

15 civilians that were crossing the confrontation line. What categories of

16 civilians did you see among those people?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

18 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, Witness YY has spoken now

19 of several incidents. I just would like to know for the record if we're

20 speaking about the first incident in late September with the soldier by

21 the name of Solaja. Is this the incident we're speaking of? If not, let

22 us know which incident we're speaking of.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. It's --

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please make it clear

25 for us.

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Page 7274

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

2 Q. Witness, I would just like you to expand a little bit on the

3 incident which you -- you just indicated the route of movement of the

4 civilians from one side to the other side. Just my question was relevant

5 to that incident.

6 A. Very well. Let me explain the first situation first. At night,

7 this soldier from this unit came. We helped push the truck which he

8 couldn't start. Then he started it and left. And behind building

9 number 2 there was a large crowd. But after the truck had started, we

10 were taken back, but we could still hear. This went on for several days.

11 A large group of people was expelled. And then the next day, the soldier

12 named Solaja demanded, ordered me to check all hems for valuables. So

13 that was one situation.

14 And another situation on another day, on another time, the

15 situation was that the two elderly men and two also women who were

16 advanced in age, and when these people were let through to the east side,

17 one of the men was kept behind, kept back because he was not yet 60.

18 Q. Yes. Everything is clear about that second, let's say, incident.

19 I'm asking you about the first incident. Who were among the civilians?

20 That's what I would like to ask you.

21 A. Among these civilians were elderly men, women, and children.

22 There were -- the able-bodied men were not among them. That category was

23 not there from what I could see.

24 Q. Okay. Now you really can put aside this exhibit, and let's now

25 return to the job that you mentioned some minutes before as taking

Page 7275

1 valuables from flats, some flats in some parts of Mostar.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And who ordered you to do this job?

4 A. The soldiers who were members of that unit. They would come and

5 select some of us and would take them to the apartments which they had

6 pre-selected. Then they would order that the belongings which they would

7 choose then be loaded onto these vehicles.

8 Q. Do you remember any names of Vinko Skrobo unit, I mean, soldiers

9 who ordered you to do this job?

10 A. Well, I do. Ernest Takac, called Brada, was one of them; Zdena

11 Ilicic; and there were some others.

12 Q. Just wait a moment because the transcript is lagging behind. I

13 would like you to repeat the names because there is something wrong about

14 the spelling of one of the names. So --

15 A. Ernest Takac, called Brada. And Zdena Ilicic, it is spelled

16 Z-d-e-n-a, first name, I-l-i-c-i-c. And there was a Zdena whose last --

17 whose name I don't recall, and there were some others there whose names I

18 cannot give you now.

19 Q. Were you involved in this job frequently?

20 A. Yes, both myself and others worked there on a number of occasions.

21 Q. Do you have an idea to whom those apartments belonged before?

22 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you the names, but they were not among

23 the soldiers who were taking these belongings. There were some other

24 names there. They were not the owners. They were Bosniaks.

25 Q. But were those apartments abandoned by the time you were taking

Page 7276

1 away belongings from them?

2 A. Yes. There were no owners in them.

3 Q. And what kind of valuables did you take from the flats?

4 A. It was furniture, the refrigerators, washing machines, various

5 kinds of stoves, paintings, television sets, video recorders, whatever was

6 of value.

7 Q. And where did they take those things after loading them on the

8 truck?

9 A. Those -- sometimes we would just load up the goods, and then they

10 would leave. Sometimes they would go to the garages which they had, I

11 guess some kind of storage places of theirs.

12 Q. And now I would like you to take a look at the map of Mostar, and

13 maybe you'll be able to show the Trial Chamber the places, the locations,

14 where you participated in the looting of houses. Of course, I realise

15 that most of the streets have changed their names, but which is better for

16 you, to use traditional, prior names of the streets, or now, current names

17 of the streets?

18 A. This is the area that used to be called Dum. This is Ante

19 Zvanica, the Omladinska Street. In Centar II, I know that we also went

20 there. So that is about it.

21 Q. I would like you just to take a marker and encircle those areas

22 and put some numbers in them. And of course, with your comments, how was

23 or is this -- the name of this street or area?

24 A. So there was the neighbourhood of Dum. Let me just find it near

25 Liska. That is Dum. And also several buildings on Liska Street, Liska.

Page 7277

1 Ante Zvanica, Omladinska Street, and Centar II. That's about it.

2 Q. I would like you to put numbers on each circle.

3 A. So this is the Dum area; Liska Street; Ante Zvanica, number 3;

4 Omladinska, number 4; and Centar II, number 5.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. You may put it aside now.

6 Witness, how did Stela's soldiers treat prisoners while you were

7 performing some job in the area?

8 A. We had to work on these jobs. They ordered us what to do. Some

9 of the prisoners occasionally would be getting hit. I did not. And that

10 was it.

11 Q. Do you remember any names of soldiers who were mistreating

12 prisoners?

13 A. Ernest Takac was one of the worst ones.

14 Q. But could you explain a little bit why did you come to such a

15 conclusion that he was one of the worst?

16 A. Because on a number of occasions, he beat the prisoners and then

17 also abused them verbally, and he also was the one who took the most

18 effects from other apartments. I do not want to mention the names.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: All right. Now I would like the witness to be

20 shown Exhibit number 704, just -- the original version is under ERN

21 00795386, the English version on page 30. Could you place it on the

22 ELMO? I would like to check if we are on the same page. Mr. Usher, could

23 you help him to put it on the ELMO, because I would like to check.

24 Q. Witness, have you leafed down this list?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7278

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Page 7279

1 Q. Do you see any names that were -- ring familiar to you?

2 A. I do. They are Vinko Martinovic; Dubravko Pehar. Colak -- there

3 were two, one was Mladen and there was another Colak. Then Ernest Takac.

4 Solaja is also here. There was another Bosniak. There is Semir Bosnjic.

5 There were some Germans there, but of course I did not know their names.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. Witness, you informed the Trial Chamber that

7 you were performing some sort of job on the confrontation line itself.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was there shooting or firing while you were performing your job on

10 the confrontation line?

11 A. Yes, of course. Of course there was shooting, because that was

12 the front line. But during that period, that is, while I was there, that

13 segment of the confrontation line, there were no offensive operations.

14 Q. When were you taken back to Heliodrom?

15 A. In early December 1993.

16 Q. Did you perform any kind of job for other military units?

17 A. Well, I did. When we were brought back, we were going out to work

18 less. But on one occasion -- on one occasion, there were two units who

19 were part of the Croatian army. They were the Tigers and the

20 Thunderbolts. They were their guard units.

21 On one occasion, the members of the Tigers came and selected

22 several of us from among the prisoners, and we were taken in the direction

23 of Buna where they had a forward position. On our way there, we were

24 mistreated. They would stop the vehicle, and they would beat us. When we

25 arrived at the bridge on Buna - this is, the new bridge built over the

Page 7280

1 Buna river in 1993 - they brought the vehicle to a stop, they ordered us

2 out of the vehicle, and they ordered us to crawl across the bridge. They

3 said that they would slit our throats, that they would kill us, that they

4 would throw us into the Neretva River. They beat us.

5 Then they again ordered us to board the vehicle, the truck, and we

6 came to a facility at Buna where they again mistreated us for several

7 hours, threatened us and occasionally beat. Then they stopped doing that,

8 and close to the evening, they brought us back to the Heliodrom.

9 Q. And how did you learn the names of the unit that you mentioned,

10 Tigrovi and Thunderbolts? Tigers, I'm sorry.

11 A. We learned of those names because certain prisoners were going

12 over there every day and helped them with preparing food, with cleaning up

13 and whatever they needed, and they were going every day. And they had

14 insignia, and you could read the name of their unit, the Tigers, and also

15 the HV sign.

16 Q. When were you released from Heliodrom?

17 A. I was released in March when this big exchange or release took

18 place after the Washington Accords were signed between the Bosniaks and

19 Croats, that is, when based on that agreement, the Heliodrom camp was

20 dissolved. And I believe that that was the 19th of March, 1994.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: This was my final question. My

22 examination-in-chief is over. Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination? Mr. Par, please.

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Perhaps we

25 can take a break early, if you don't mind, or I could even start.

Page 7281

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we'll have a break right now, but we have

2 to start ten minutes earlier.

3 Usher, would you please take the witness out of the room first.

4 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll resume at twenty minutes past eleven.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.50 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.21 a.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, cross-examination, Mr. Par?

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Par:

11 Q. [Interpretation] And good morning, Witness.

12 A. Good morning.

13 Q. I am Zelimir Par. I'm one of the Defence attorneys for Mr. Vinko

14 Martinovic, and I'm going to ask you some questions in relation to the

15 evidence you've given.

16 First off, let me take you back to the building of the base. You

17 saw a picture of it, and you described it, but I would like some further

18 clarifications. My question is: Is this a completely new building that,

19 by its look, does not resemble the old base?

20 A. Are you asking me whether this is a completely new building or it

21 was completely reconstructed? I wouldn't be able to say that, but it is

22 completely different from the building that I remember, at least from the

23 outside; I don't know from the inside.

24 Q. I'm going to ask you: If somebody were to see this picture, they

25 would not be able to see, based on the picture alone, that this was that

Page 7282

1 building?

2 A. No. They would have to be there on location.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher now to please bring

4 back the map which the Prosecutor had used, that is, 14.5.

5 Q. And I would like the copy that you had marked. It has to do with

6 the zone of responsibility of this unit, so I'm going to ask you some

7 questions about that. Let's start with the -- where the people who were

8 expelled at night were going. Is that behind building 2?

9 A. Yes. It is between the building marked with "2" and the building

10 that was not rebuilt and down the road and that way.

11 Q. The question that I have is: Why did they not take that road

12 straight down? Were there any obstacles there? Were there any sandbags

13 there? Is that the reason why they did not take that street straight

14 down?

15 A. Well, you yourself have just given the answer. There were

16 sandbags around here, and they were about 2 metres high in this area.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I would -- I need to ask the -- my

18 learned friend whether they would object to my asking the witness to mark

19 that same copy, or shall I give him a fresh copy?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: In principle, I don't object, but I'm concerned

22 if they will not spoil my picture by their marks.

23 JUDGE LIU: I see. I believe that the marks will be on a

24 different location; right?

25 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Fine. I'll provide a new map. But I

Page 7283

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Page 7284

1 will ask the witness to also make all the marks which he has done

2 previously and then add something else.

3 Q. So, Witness, let me ask you to just copy all the marks that you

4 had made previously, and then we'll make some new ones.

5 A. [Witness complies]

6 Q. And could you place the new one on the ELMO, and we can give back

7 the old one used by the Prosecutor so we don't confuse it. Very well. So

8 we have sandbags. Will you mark where the sandbags were.

9 A. It was on the main street.

10 Q. Yes, where you showed them. I believe that it was between

11 markers 1 and 2.

12 And just the next number. That's 5, I believe.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. Very good. So as far as you can remember, it was sandbags here.

15 And how high was this barricade?

16 A. Over two metres.

17 Q. Now, between 2 and 1, do you remember if there was a cord, a kind

18 of a clothesline which -- over which some blankets or some canvas or

19 something was hung to protect against sniper fire, rather, to screen

20 people from sniper fire?

21 A. I don't remember. Possibly there was something like that, but I

22 just don't remember it.

23 Q. Let's now look at building number 3, which is the Health Centre.

24 JUDGE LIU: Please do make a pause between questions and answers,

25 Mr. Par.

Page 7285

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Yes. I'm

2 sorry.

3 Q. The Health Centre, building number 3, do you remember how many

4 entrances were there into the Health Centre, and especially on the front

5 side, just opposite the fountain? Do you remember?

6 A. What you're asking me is whether there was an entrance door near

7 the fountain, next to the fountain? Well, before the war, that is, in

8 1992, there was an entrance, and I think that was the dentist, where the

9 dentist surgery was. But in 1993, of course the entrance could not be

10 there because it -- it would have to face the BH army.

11 Q. Now, my question is: Was there a door there, whether one could go

12 in and out, not whether people did go in and out.

13 A. Well, before the war, before 1992, was the dentistry, was the

14 dentist surgery where teeth were extracted.

15 Q. But at that time when you were there?

16 A. Well, I didn't come out there, so I couldn't tell you. That is,

17 nobody used that door to come out there.

18 Q. You mean you were never in front of that building at that place?

19 A. No. I'll show you exactly. So right in front of this place, I

20 put a point there. I was not there. Yes, before 1992, not after 1992.

21 Q. Very well. While we still have this photograph in front of you

22 and with this arrow, and we see where those expelled people moved, let us

23 go back to that period of time and tell me if some Muslims or the majority

24 of Muslims who stayed behind on the west bank, did they want to leave West

25 Mostar of their own free will and cross over to the east side? Was that

Page 7286

1 how the situation was or do you know anything about this?

2 A. Well, at that time, I was in the camp, and I wouldn't really be

3 able to answer you that. Perhaps some other witnesses will be able to

4 tell you more about that.

5 Q. And whilst you were there, whilst you were with this unit, did you

6 perhaps witness some incidents when a Muslim from West Mostar came to that

7 unit and said, "Will you please help me cross this line? Could you please

8 provide safe passage for me?" Did it ever happen, as far as you know?

9 A. Well, on those two incidents that happened, I already described it

10 as I saw them, and I did that correctly.

11 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. But my question was if you saw there some

12 people who wanted to cross of their own free will, whether some people

13 volunteered to do that.

14 A. No, I did not. As far as I can remember, I did not see anyone

15 come to any soldier and ask him to help him cross the line.

16 Q. Did I understand you well when you said when these people were

17 crossing over that they noted -- that there was a notice that civilians

18 were moving, therefore, not to open fire?

19 A. Yes. I can repeat that. "Balijas, balijas. There, your people

20 are coming." So they would go there, and they shouted that, and that

21 happened on various occasions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Witness, we know that you are eager to help us by

23 giving your evidence, but whatever you say is to be translated into

24 the other two languages. The interpreters are having a very difficult

25 time to follow you both. So do please wait until you hear the question.

Page 7287

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am sorry, Mr. President. I will

2 do my best to help the interpreters.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Mr. Par, you may continue.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Witness, I will give you a sign when you need to make a short

7 break, and if I'm too fast, then you warn me, please, and I hope we'll

8 solve the problem.

9 Now, let's touch upon your stay with the unit, the conditions

10 under which you were kept there. You said that you first slept in a

11 garage, then at some other place in one of those buildings there. Tell

12 me, were you guarded on such occasions when you slept there? Were you

13 under lock? What kind of supervision was there?

14 A. Well, whilst we were in the garage, they would lock the garage. I

15 don't know who was outside. I suppose somebody was outside, but I

16 wouldn't be able to tell you exactly. So they would take us in when the

17 night falls and lock us up.

18 As for this other part, that is, when we were on the front line,

19 they would take us into the room. So there was nobody in front of the

20 room exactly, but there were other armed men from the unit so that, of

21 course, it never occurred to us to leave the room until somebody was

22 called out.

23 Q. I, rather, wanted to see if you felt there as a prisoner was there

24 always somebody all over you or could you -- did you have any freedom of

25 movement or something?

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Page 7289

1 A. Listen --

2 Q. Yes, Witness. You can proceed now

3 A. Well, you are free if you can go somewhere. Had I been free, I

4 wouldn't have stayed there those three months. I would have left.

5 Q. Well, no. I do -- I wasn't trying to prove that you were free. I

6 wanted to compare it to other places that you've been to, and I wanted to

7 ask you to tell us what kind of food was there. How about water? Could

8 you compare the conditions at this place with the conditions at other

9 places where you were kept?

10 A. Well, listen, food was short all the time. We never had any

11 sufficient food anywhere. Now, to try to make some comparisons, well,

12 it's difficult, but now when I look back at it, I think that Vojno was the

13 worst of them all. Others, I don't think they would be -- they would

14 easily -- they could be easily compared.

15 Q. But you say, "In one place we were 50 in one room so there was no

16 room for us to lie down." Then could you sleep -- did you have more room

17 to sleep over here? Was the food over there better? Was it better with

18 this unit?

19 A. Well, I tried --

20 Q. Yes, do go on.

21 A. Well, I tried to tell you that insofar as overall conditions were

22 concerned, then I would say that Vojno was the worst. But now if I single

23 out individual elements from here or -- and from there, it is difficult

24 for me to say that. I think that it will be enough if I say that Vojno

25 was the worst.

Page 7290

1 Q. Right. So Vojno was the worst, but Vojno is at Bijelo Polje,

2 isn't it?

3 A. Yes, yes, yes, it is at Bijelo Polje.

4 Q. My question -- my other question is: Did Stela provide the best

5 conditions of all?

6 A. I couldn't say that Stela provided the best conditions because

7 there were --

8 Q. Very well. Now let's move on to the unit. You said you knew

9 quite a great deal about the unit, what kind of unit it is, who is a

10 general, who is a colonel, what its name is. So let's touch upon that

11 now. How many men were there in this unit, according to you?

12 A. Well, I wouldn't know. Thirty? Fifty? I don't really know. I

13 wouldn't be able to give you the exact strength.

14 Q. Very well. But roughly, would you say that that is the number of

15 people that you saw around?

16 A. Well, thereabouts, yes, I'd say.

17 Q. You are saying that this unit's commander was Vinko Martinovic and

18 that he was addressed as "Colonel" or "General"?

19 A. Yes, that's right. Yes, that's how they addressed him, or

20 "Commander" perhaps. But I know, they would say "Colonel" or "General."

21 Q. Were there any other forms of address, whether they called him as

22 "Chief" or "Stela"?

23 A. I couldn't really remember now. I don't know. Possibly, but I

24 just can't remember.

25 Q. Now, you said, if I understood you properly, that you never saw

Page 7291

1 him wear any rank insignia?

2 A. I can't remember if he had anything. He was often in a greenish

3 uniform, so that is one colour, but that was a greenish colour. But I

4 cannot remember whether the HVO at that time even had any of these

5 insignias, I mean to indicate a general or something.

6 Q. Now, let's clear up this matter of address. When a soldier says

7 "Colonel" or "General," when a soldier says that to his superior, is it,

8 as in a regular army, when you have a soldier address his superior that

9 way, or is it more in a kind of a conversation, a friendly way, in which

10 somebody says "Colonel," "General" or something?

11 A. Well, what I have in mind is -- all I can say - and that is only

12 my opinion - is that I do not think that he was officially a general or a

13 colonel, but that is only my opinion.

14 Q. Very well. Yes, because you can't -- we can agree you can't

15 address somebody now as a general and now as a colonel, so --

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think my learned friend is making statements

18 instead of asking questions.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that question is answered in a perfect

20 way.

21 You may proceed, Mr. Par.

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Tell me, Witness YY, did you serve the army? Did you serve the

24 JNA?

25 A. I did.

Page 7292

1 Q. So you know that kind of organisation, this conventional military

2 structure, as it should be, for instance, the one of the -- in the JNA?

3 A. Well, yes, even though I'm no expert. I don't really know much

4 about matters military, but I did serve in the army.

5 Q. No, I'm not going to ask you anything special, just what an

6 ordinary foot soldier would know. What I'm interested in is the

7 organisation of this unit, the chain of command, the organisational

8 layout, the relations between soldiers and their superiors. Could you

9 draw a comparison between them and an army? So my question is, directly:

10 Could you feel in that unit that you were in, could you really know who

11 was -- who and who was what discipline, the chain of command? Was it a

12 thing which was -- which was obvious? Was it evident?

13 A. Yes, I understand what you're asking me, but I did not see anyone

14 reporting to anyone. But Mr. Martinovic clearly had that -- the command,

15 so that their conversations, their talks, their reports, I suppose, took

16 place inside the building. I wouldn't know, really. I don't know how to

17 answer that question.

18 Q. I'll tell you what I am particularly interested in. I'm

19 interested in their organisation, because I want to find out whether that

20 unit -- whether that unit's commander is completely in the know,

21 everything that goes on. Is he kept abreast where is every one of the

22 officers under him or soldiers, where his men are, what they are doing?

23 Is there a proper organisation, as in every other army? Is there a clear

24 picture, clear organisational layout?

25 A. Well, listen, I cannot answer that question, of course, because I

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Page 7294

1 don't really know what the relationships were between Mr. Stela and his

2 men, the men who were under him. I cannot answer that. I don't know

3 that.

4 Q. Very well. You've already answered it. If I understood you

5 properly, you were not able to see that, you were not able to observe the

6 kind of the hierarchical ladder.

7 A. Well, what I could see was what they said, that Stela was the

8 commander of that unit. Now, what their relations were, did he know what

9 each one of his men did, that I really don't know because I wasn't a

10 soldier in his unit.

11 Q. Let us go back to that "Colonel," "General," the form of address.

12 You mentioned that you knew that Stela had been with HOS?

13 A. Yes, before.

14 Q. Did they also address him as "General," "Colonel" then, when in

15 HOS? What was he in HOS? Do you remember that?

16 A. He was a commander of a unit then, and they were cornered -- and

17 they were then on the corner between the old and the new hospital in

18 Mostar, and he was -- he commanded that unit. I remember that in 1992,

19 there was -- there were some horses -- there was an open area, and there

20 were some horses in front of that building, and he commanded that unit,

21 but I can't really remember.

22 Q. Did HOS play a positive role in that time when it was defending

23 Mostar against the Serb aggression?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you say that it is possible that this address, this rank,

Page 7295

1 "Colonel," "General," was attached to Stela at that time?

2 A. Well, you are asking me something that I do not know, so it's

3 better for me not to say anything.

4 Q. I mean, did you hear anyone ask -- address him as "Colonel,"

5 "General," at that time, during the HOS period?

6 A. Well, I saw him only once at that time. I was nowhere near HOS at

7 that time, and I wouldn't -- I couldn't really -- I wasn't in a position

8 to know such things.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Very well. I'd like to show the witness

10 now a document which has to do with this issue, and I'd like the witness

11 to look at it, the ID D2/23. And the registrar has the copies for the

12 Chamber, and I'd like also one copy to be given -- that the witness be

13 given one of the copies. We gave the copies of this document to the

14 Prosecutor during the break. Unfortunately, we do not have it in French

15 for Judge Diarra because we did not expect that we would have to produce

16 this document today.

17 Q. Witness, could you please have a look at this document. Do you

18 know what it is, what is the date on that document, and what rank is

19 indicated in this document?

20 A. Do you want me to read it out?

21 Q. Could you tell us what that document is?

22 A. Well, it says here that this is the army membership card.

23 Q. And which name is indicated there?

24 A. Vinko Martinovic.

25 Q. Now, beneath, it says "rank"?

Page 7296

1 A. Yes, the rank. It says "soldier."

2 Q. Can we look at the date?

3 A. Yes. It says "19th of June, 1993."

4 Q. Very well. I'm showing you this document because I set out to

5 prove that the term that you mentioned, that is, "General," "Colonel," is

6 due -- arises from something else and not from his formal rank. Now, when

7 you see this document, it shows that he did not have this official rank,

8 even though somebody maybe addressed him with the rank.

9 A. Well, I can repeat what I have already said. My opinion, that is,

10 is that he did not have the official rank of a colonel or general, and

11 I've already said so.

12 Q. Thank you. We are coming to the end. I have only a few questions

13 more, which have to do with those items taken from abandoned houses, in

14 which you participated directly.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So my question is: Was Stela ever present when you did those

17 things, when you took those things out of houses?

18 A. My answer is very short. No, he wasn't.

19 Q. At what time of the day or night did this happen when you had to

20 go with those people that you went with to do that?

21 A. Well, it was either in daytime or at night-time.

22 Q. Very well. And do you know if anyone notified Stela about this,

23 that this was going on and what was going on? Do you know anything about

24 that?

25 A. A moment ago, I've already told you that being a prisoner, of

Page 7297

1 course, I could not be in the possession of such information, what kind of

2 relationships existed between Stela and other soldiers in that unit.

3 Q. Thank you, Witness. And we've just managed to establish a good

4 pace between question and answer, and I've run out of my questions.

5 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not any further

6 questions.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Meek.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Meek:

9 Q. Good morning, Witness YY. How are you?

10 A. Good morning.

11 Q. My name is Christopher Meek, and I'm one of the Defence counsel

12 for Mladen Naletilic, and I have a few questions for you this morning.

13 First, do you understand that you were a member of the army of JNA

14 in 1992?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Have you ever been a member of the military, either prior to the

17 incidents in 1993 or subsequent to your release from the Heliodrom?

18 A. Well, I, some ten years before the conflict in BH, I did my

19 military service with the JNA, like all the able-bodied men in the

20 then-Yugoslavia, and I was also a member of the reserve police force and

21 attended sometime in September 1992 of the civilian police.

22 Q. After your release from the Heliodrom, you never went back to the

23 military, and you were never an active member of any military; is that

24 correct?

25 JUDGE LIU: Well --

Page 7298

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Page 7299

1 A. I wasn't.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, if you ask some questions which touch

3 upon the protective measures, just inform the Court. We could easily go

4 into the private session.

5 MR. MEEK: I will, Mr. President. I didn't believe I did, but I

6 will certainly bear that in mind.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 MR. MEEK: Thank you. Well, then, may we go into private session

9 for a moment, just to be sure, Your Honour?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 7300

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4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [Open session]

13 MR. MEEK:

14 Q. Witness YY, I noticed that you gave two separate statements, one

15 in January, on the 27th, of 1996, in Mostar to the criminal police sector;

16 and then a second statement you gave the 1st of October, 1998 to members

17 of the office of the Prosecutor for this Tribunal. Are these the only two

18 statements you've given concerning your -- the events of your life in 1993

19 until your release in 1994?

20 A. No. I have given another statement. In fact, there was a short

21 statement given at the Heliodrom; this is to some HVO policemen. They

22 asked some questions very briefly.

23 And I also gave a statement in 1994, after we were released from

24 the camp. And that was also a statement given to the police.

25 Q. When you say "the police," was that the AID or the secret police

Page 7301

1 in Mostar?

2 A. It was the police, the regular police.

3 Q. Witness YY, would it be a fair conclusion that you reviewed the

4 statement of January 27, 1996 and also reviewed your October 1, 1998

5 statement prior to coming to the Tribunal to testify? And if you don't

6 understand, I can rephrase.

7 A. Could you?

8 Q. Did you have a chance, the opportunity to read the statements that

9 you gave in 1996 and again in 1998, which bear your signature, before you

10 came to The Hague to testify today?

11 A. Before today, yes. Yes.

12 Q. Would you agree with me that today you testified in your direct

13 examination that this Stela person had an ATG unit and that you testified

14 today that it made a part of the Convicts Battalion out of Siroki Brijeg?

15 You testified to that today. Do you remember?

16 A. Yes, I said that today.

17 Q. And would you agree with me, Witness YY, that when you gave your

18 statements in 1996, in January 1996, the events which had occurred in your

19 life in 1993 and early 1994 were fresher on your mind than they are

20 today?

21 A. They probably were, yes.

22 Q. And the same answer would probably apply, would it not, to the

23 statement you gave to the OTP in October of 1998, three years ago?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, would you agree with me that you never mentioned in either

Page 7302

1 one of these statements that the -- you never mentioned Convicts Battalion

2 nor did you ever mention Siroki Brijeg?

3 A. As far as these statements are concerned, as far as I recall, they

4 were not mentioned. But even today in this hearing, I did not mention

5 everything that concerns these statements. In other words, I just

6 answered the questions asked of me.

7 Q. And it's my understanding from your testimony today that you

8 believed, or it's your opinion that this individual named Tuta was somehow

9 in charge of this ATG unit in Mostar, based simply on the fact that you

10 had heard talk about Stela going to this town of Siroki Brijeg to have a

11 meeting and somebody shot at his car.

12 A. On one occasion, Stela went to that meeting, and somebody shot at

13 his vehicle. And this is why the soldiers talked about it more than

14 usual, because it is something that held their interest more. So from

15 what they were saying, one could infer that Tuta was some kind of their

16 chief, somebody who was superior to them, somebody above Stela.

17 Q. And again Witness YY, that's an inference you drew from comments

18 made by other people or third parties; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness YY, I wish you the best of luck in life, and thank you for

21 coming all this way to testify to this Honourable Tribunal. Thank you

22 very much. I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination?

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, a very short one. I would like

25 the witness to be shown Exhibit number 704. It is page 30 of the English

Page 7303

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Page 7304

1 version and B/C/S version ERN 00795386, just the same document I showed to

2 the witness sometime before.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

4 Q. I would like you, Witness, just to look at the right side of the

5 list. Do you see Vinko Martinovic's name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What kind of position did he have according to this list?

8 A. On the basis of this list, here it is stated that he had a

9 commanding position, in other words, that he was a commander of this unit.

10 Q. Yes. And the second person, the person who is under number 2?

11 A. Dubravko Pehar, deputy commander. In other words, he is a deputy

12 of the commander of this unit.

13 Q. Number 5?

14 A. Five, Ernest Takac, group leader. That means that he led one of

15 these groups, one of these shifts, one of these teams.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

17 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, my objection goes to the

18 form of these questions. This document speaks for itself. Why are we

19 having this witness read number 1, number 4, number 5, and then go to the

20 right? We can all read English or French. I object. It's not proper.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. Show us your purpose.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, actually I have received the

23 response of my witness to the question that I had, and my intention was

24 just to confront this document with a document showed by my learned

25 colleague during the cross; I mean, the identification card, where Vinko

Page 7305

1 Martinovic was mentioned just as a private. That's the only reason that I

2 had for my redirect.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. I have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Yes, Mr. Meek?

8 MR. MEEK: Your Honour, while that document is still on the ELMO,

9 I have a few questions for this --

10 JUDGE LIU: No, no. Not now. There should be an end for the

11 cross-examination, Mr. Meek.

12 MR. MEEK: I agree with you, Your Honour, but --

13 JUDGE LIU: This document was shown on the ELMO during direct

14 examination. If you have any questions, you may raise it in your

15 cross-examination, but not now.

16 MR. MEEK: Not after the redirect?

17 JUDGE LIU: No.

18 MR. MEEK: There were issues that came up on the redirect that I

19 wish to question him about very shortly.

20 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so.

21 MR. MEEK: I'm in your hands, Your Honour. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges? Judge Clark?

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Par, do you have the original of that document

25 that you handed in to the witness, the identification of Vinko

Page 7306

1 Martinovic? I'll tell you why I ask. The photograph is so poor that I

2 thought you were putting it to the witness in order to establish that

3 there was somebody else called Vinko Martinovic in the unit, because I

4 have to say the photograph doesn't look at all like your client. But then

5 nine years does change --

6 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I'll be brief. There is the original

7 extant. I don't have it here. It is -- it may be at the detention unit,

8 or we may have it. But there is -- the original does exist, to ask -- to

9 answer the first question.

10 And as far as the picture is concerned, the picture that is on

11 that military ID was the exact same one that was provided to us from the

12 OTP in one of the binders, blown up, the same exact picture of our client,

13 Vinko Martinovic.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you.

15 Witness YY, can I ask you a question? When you were a member of

16 the JNA, I understand - and correct me if I'm wrong about this - that all

17 men of military age had to do some sort of very minimal training in the

18 JNA, for some period of 12 to 14 months.

19 A. Yes, that is correct. Twelve to eighteen months is what the

20 training took, and it wasn't really minimal.

21 JUDGE CLARK: So when you were there, would you have had to take

22 orders from a corporal and then a sergeant and work your way up through

23 the non-commissioned officers and recognise the titles and ranks of the

24 officer brigade or unit?

25 A. Yes. A corporal, and so on and so forth, had his own rank and

Page 7307

1 then commanded accordingly.

2 JUDGE CLARK: I was just wondering: Had you ever come across the

3 title "Commander"? It's not one that translates in English as something

4 that one finds in the army, "Commander," in English anyway. It's

5 something that you may have, maybe, in the naval service, but in the army,

6 were you familiar with the title "Commander"?

7 A. Commanding officer or commander, I'm afraid I didn't quite

8 understand. It is the person who commands, the person who is in charge of

9 a unit. This is what he is called.

10 JUDGE CLARK: The reason I ask that is that in army titles that

11 are known to me, you start with the lieutenant and then a captain, and

12 then a major and a colonel and different types of generals from a major

13 general a brigadier general and a full general, but I don't know the title

14 "Commander." Do you know of a title that an officer carries called

15 "Commander"?

16 A. Now I fully understand your question. The commander, as I was

17 using it, it is not a rank, it is not like a lieutenant. It is somebody

18 that command a unit, regardless of whether the unit is one commanded by a

19 lieutenant, a major, a captain. But it is a person who commands a unit.

20 It is not a particular rank that one has on his shoulders.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, Witness.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

24 questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Par?

Page 7308

1 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honours, thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Meek?

3 MR. MEEK: Yes.

4 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Meek:

5 Q. Witness YY, on that Exhibit 704 that had "Commander" and other

6 list --

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would object.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What's the reason for that?

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Because Judge Clark didn't touch upon this

10 question during her examination relevant to this document.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, but Judge Clark asked the question about

12 "Commander." I think the Defence counsel has the right to ask questions

13 concerning with this title, if I may say that.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I tried to be precise.

15 MR. MEEK:

16 Q. Witness YY, Judge Clark had asked you questions about the names on

17 this list, this 704 document, that was close there to you a moment ago.

18 JUDGE CLARK: I don't think I did. I just asked about the

19 meaning.

20 MR. MEEK: Maybe I went overboard there a little bit.

21 Q. But very briefly, you don't know who drew that document up, do

22 you? You don't know who drew that document up?

23 A. What I -- I can read what is written there, but I don't know

24 more -- anything more about that document.

25 Q. Thank you. And -- go ahead.

Page 7309

1 A. That is -- what I could read was, as far as I can recall -- is the

2 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and so on and so forth.

3 Q. During this time that you were in Mostar, that you talked about,

4 you never ever saw Mr. Naletilic, did you?

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Again, Your Honour, this is not a question that

6 is stemming from Judge Clark's question.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, this question is out of the scope.

8 MR. MEEK: He was just ready to answer no, Your Honour. We have

9 45 minutes, and we are done. That was my last question.

10 JUDGE LIU: No. There should be a rule, no matter how much time

11 we have left. There must be a rule in this courtroom.

12 MR. MEEK: Well, then, Merry Christmas to everybody, a good life

13 to you, and I thank you very much. I have no further questions.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness, for helping us by giving your

15 evidence. We all wish you Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

16 THE ACCUSED NALETILIC: [No interpretation]

17 JUDGE LIU: Would you please be silent.

18 The usher will show you out of the room when he pulls down the

19 blinds.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

22 Mr. Prosecutor.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I would like to tender the

24 following documents: Exhibits P11.18/9, P14.5/10, P15.2. The documents

25 P704 and 745.1 have already been tendered before.

Page 7310

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Par.

2 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No objection.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Oh, the witness is gone.

5 Your Honour, Mr. President, we have no objection to P11.18/9,

6 P14.5/10, P15.2. We have filed our written objection to P745.1 this

7 morning, which was brought forward last week through a witness. The same

8 objections would apply to this witness. We have previously objected to

9 P704 on the grounds as identically to P745.1, so those objections are

10 already on the record. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Those documents that were not objected to

12 by Defence counsel are admitted into the evidence.

13 Are there any documents to tender from the Defence side?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. These are the

15 documents: D2/23, which is the military ID, and D2/24, which is the map

16 that -- that is the photograph that the witness has marked.

17 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. First of all, I would like to

19 have a look at the original document first, because it's very difficult to

20 see something from the copy.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It cannot be, let's say, legible, and the image

23 of the person in the picture is not quite clear, if it is the same Vinko

24 Martinovic, because we know that "Martinovic" name was very common in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and apparently "Vinko" is also a very well-known

Page 7311

1 name.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par.

3 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Then I suggest that you allow us to

4 produce this document when we're able to also produce the original, and at

5 that time we will also present the photograph that we were provided by the

6 OTP. So I would like to reserve right, after we come back from the

7 recess, to come back to the admission, the admissibility of this document.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, excuse me.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: There was a mistake. The Exhibit 14.5/11 it

12 should be, not 10. I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you.

14 So the document D2/24, which originally was P14.5, marked by the

15 witness, is admitted into the evidence. Thank you.

16 Well, Mr. Seric.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Two points

18 before the very end, because we're about to go into the recess. I would

19 like to ask, Mr. President, through you, to request our learned friends to

20 give us the witness list so that we start our preparations for what is

21 ahead of us after the 7th of January. And then on behalf of both teams, I

22 would like to wish Merry Christmas and happy holidays to everybody

23 concerned and also happy birthdays to all those who happen to have them

24 between now and the 7th of January, when we next see you. Thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Is there any response from the

Page 7312

1 Prosecution side about the list of the witnesses for the next year?

2 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. President. That will be provided in short

3 order. As you know, Mr. President, Your Honours, we've done that all

4 along, and we'll continue to follow our practice of doing that. I would

5 expect that can be -- the witnesses for January, that can be done in

6 reasonably short order and provided, and there's no question about that.

7 JUDGE LIU: I see. And could you inform us how many witnesses,

8 potential witnesses, are you planning to call upon after the New Year?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, that question is a bit difficult to

10 answer because there are a number of requests for certain orders

11 outstanding, and it depends upon -- depends on the witnesses who

12 ultimately agree or come to The Hague. So it's difficult for me to answer

13 that question because it could range considerably, depending on the

14 witnesses who agreed to appear. I would suspect that we're looking

15 somewhere in the vicinity - and forgive the wide range, Your Honour, but

16 it's the most honest answer I can give you - would be somewhere depending

17 between -- anywhere between 10 and 20 witnesses approximately.

18 JUDGE LIU: And how long are you going to take for your direct

19 examination after the Christmas?

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, our estimate is based upon -- our

21 understanding is that we will commence proceedings again on approximately

22 Monday, the 7th of January. I would hope to be able to conclude the

23 Prosecution case in not more than, and hopefully with some good fortune,

24 perhaps less, but approximately three weeks, starting on the 7th of

25 January. So that would take us, if all -- if, and again I have to -- I'm

Page 7313

1 sorry I have to qualify my answers so much. But depending on the

2 witnesses who appear, if they all will appear, then I suppose it should

3 take us until the latter part of January, but no later than that.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your information. At this

5 stage, are there any matters to bring to the attention of the Chamber?

6 MR. SCOTT: I just have two, Your Honour, briefly. One is just

7 before we recess, I have a bundle of translations here that have come in

8 concerning documents that were used with Mr. Prelec the first time he

9 appeared, and those translations became available to me this morning. And

10 just as a matter of record, I'll make them available to counsel and to

11 your staff in the course of the day. I have them here.

12 And secondly, Your Honour, I will certainly join in with the

13 Defence and certainly on behalf of the entire Prosecution team to wish

14 the -- all of you and your staffs and the Translation Unit our best wishes

15 for the holiday recess.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So we are adjourned until the

17 7th of January next year.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.25 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day

20 of January, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.

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