Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7314

1 Monday, 7 January 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Martinovic and Naletilic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, everybody. It's a long time since we

9 last met each other in this courtroom. What we want to say is happy new

10 year to all of you, including all those people in the booth.

11 Mr. Martinovic, can you hear the proceedings in a language you

12 understand?



15 MR. MEEK: Doesn't work, Your Honour. We get nothing.

16 THE INTERPRETER: 1, 2, 3.

17 JUDGE LIU: Are you okay? Mr. Martinovic, I'm sorry for keeping

18 you waiting for that long because of the technical problems. Did you have

19 a good Christmas? Do you have anything to complain during this period?

20 THE ACCUSED MARTINOVIC: No, Your Honour, nothing.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, you may sit down.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Testing.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Naletilic.


25 JUDGE LIU: Do you hear the proceedings in a language that you

Page 7315

1 understand?


3 JUDGE LIU: How about your Christmas? Do you have anything to

4 complain?


6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

7 Now, Mr. Scott.

8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we have problems on our side as well.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Scott.

10 MR. SCOTT: The ones that are built into the...

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

12 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, the consoles that are built into

13 the table do not seem to be working, at least not at this station, but

14 this does. I may find myself getting pulled away, I'm afraid, but we'll

15 manage.

16 Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning and welcome back. The

17 first witness that we have this morning is named Anton Van der Grinten.

18 He is a Dutch army officer who was an ECMM monitor in Mostar in the second

19 half -- well, approximately from the end of May until August of 1993. He

20 is not testifying or seeking any protective measures, therefore, he will

21 testify in open session. His testimony goes primarily to Background

22 Matters, paragraphs 10 and 11; General Allegations, paragraph 21; count 1,

23 paragraph 26 to 28, 34; and count 18, paragraph 54. I might add that a

24 number of documents or exhibits will be used with this witness, and

25 binders, a binder of exhibits have been tendered to everyone, hopefully,

Page 7316

1 in the courtroom and to the booths, is my understanding. So I hope, Mr.

2 President, that you and Your Honours have those available to you. If not,

3 then they should be.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for this information. Would you

5 please furnish the Court and the Defence counsel with the new list of

6 witnesses you're intending to call for this week.

7 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, I will provide that today.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher, would you please call

9 the witness in.

10 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I might comment that although Mr. Van

11 der Grinten is a native Dutch speaker, as you might appreciate by now, he

12 speaks, as many Dutch do, fluent English and will be testifying in English

13 and that's -- that was discussed with him and he's comfortable testifying

14 in English.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Meek?

16 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, good morning, and from the

17 Defence bar, we would say Happy New Year to you also. Preliminarily, Mr.

18 Scott was nice enough to just now supply Defence counsel with a list of

19 proposed exhibits that he intends to introduce through this witness. I

20 would, for the Court and for the record, request that we be allowed to

21 cross-examine this witness at a time other than today for the reason that

22 this Trial Chamber, last year, entered an order that all exhibits be

23 translated to a language which our clients can understand. Until a few

24 minutes ago, we had no translations in Serbo-Croatian. Our client, Mr.

25 Naletilic, has not had a chance to review any of these documents,

Page 7317

1 therefore, and obviously will not have a chance -- they are -- the

2 documents I see now are translated into the language he understands but

3 because it was at the last moment before trial started this morning, Mr.

4 Naletilic will not be able to review those documents and assist in his

5 Defence until he can review the same, and that won't happen until after

6 court today, at the very latest, because we've just received the same in

7 Serbo-Croatian this morning. Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Shall we proceed with this witness first?

10 MR. MEEK: We don't have an objection to proceeding with the

11 witness. Our request is that we be allowed to cross-examine him at

12 another moment, another date, as he is living in the country, we believe.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, Witness.

14 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Happy New Year.

16 THE WITNESS: Happy New Year to you, too.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please make the solemn

18 declaration, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.


23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I feel I must comment very briefly two

25 things I will address further when the Chamber requests it and affords me

Page 7318

1 the opportunity, counsel's comments, and specifically I must advise the

2 Chamber this morning that because of other duties this witness is not in

3 fact stationed in the Netherlands, he is stationed in Turkey, he must

4 return on Wednesday and therefore he will not be available after tomorrow

5 afternoon at this time.

6 Examined by Mr. Scott:

7 Q. Good morning, Witness.

8 A. Good morning, sir.

9 Q. Sir, initially, I'm going to take you through some background

10 material and, with the Chamber's permission, I hope, I will lead you

11 through some of this information quite quickly until we get to more

12 central parts, perhaps, of your testimony.

13 Mr. Van der Grinten, or I should say perhaps Colonel, you attended

14 the Netherlands Royal Military Academy from 1971 to 1975; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, sir.

16 Q. And you have been in the Royal Netherlands Army since that time?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. I understand that your first mission abroad on behalf of the

19 United Nations was with something called UNIFIL, which I'll ask you to

20 comment on briefly in a moment, from 1979 until 1980 in Lebanon. Can you

21 just very briefly tell the Chamber, so they can understand your

22 background, what was UNIFIL?

23 A. UNIFIL was the UN Interim Force in the Lebanon, and it was

24 actually the first mission of the Dutch Royal Army for the UN abroad. We

25 stayed there for eight years, five years with an infantry battalion and

Page 7319

1 another three years with a unit on company level and I was actually in the

2 2nd Battalion, the single officer in the rank of captain at that time.

3 Q. And again, you were there from approximately 1979 to 1980?

4 A. I was there, serving for half a year.

5 Q. All right. Then you were also for a time in the years 1986 and

6 1987 you were an UNTSO observer in Lebanon, Syria and Israel; is that

7 correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. And again, what was the UNTSO?

10 A. The UNTSO, we call it actually, is the UN Truce Supervision

11 Organisation and one of the oldest UN missions who are dealing with all

12 the agreements between Israel and the Arab countries in the Middle East,

13 so it is a mission where military men, officers I have to say, are

14 controlling the borders and crossing points between the confrontation

15 lines, actually.

16 Q. All right. And is it correct, sir, that at the present time you

17 have the rank of Lieutenant Colonel in the Royal Netherlands Army and your

18 present assignment is in connection with NATO; is that right?

19 A. That's correct. I'm serving at the subregional NATO HQ in Turkey,

20 Izmir; Izmir, Turkey.

21 Q. What is your position?

22 A. My position is I'm chief of the OPS branch of that headquarters.

23 Q. And just so the record is clear, when you say "OPS branch," you

24 mean operations?

25 A. Yeah, I'm sorry about that but I will limit my abbreviations.

Page 7320

1 Q. Very well. Now, Colonel, with that background, let me take you

2 back, please, to approximately May of 1993. At that time, you were a

3 major in the Royal Netherlands Army and you were serving at that time as

4 part of an ECMM monitoring mission in Hungary; is that correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And directing your attention to about the 21st of May, 1993, did

7 you receive instructions or orders that you were to report to an ECMM

8 mission in about Mostar in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. That's correct, sir.

10 Q. And you travelled then to the ECMM headquarters in Zagreb.

11 Croatia, on the 22nd of May, 1993, to receive further instructions.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Can you briefly tell the Chamber, during this process of making

14 the transition from Hungary to arriving, ultimately, in Siroki Brijeg some

15 days later, what sort of orientation and briefing did you receive in

16 connection with the mission on which you were about to embark?

17 A. Okay. Initially, I started in southern Hungary in Seget. That

18 was, of course, the periphery of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Late May, I got the

19 order and the transfer to Bosnia due to a lack of personnel, and I think

20 experienced personnel, and that was the reason that they called me back to

21 Zagreb. There I got, from ECMM at the HQ, the instructions and the brief

22 about the situation in Bosnia and especially Mostar, and I was appointed

23 to be the first monitor, Dutch monitor, actually, in Mostar and went,

24 after that weekend, via Split to Siroki Brijeg where at that time the

25 coordination centre Mostar was situated.

Page 7321

1 Q. All right. Now, your area of responsibility included Mostar; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Sorry?

4 Q. Your area of responsibility included Mostar?

5 A. It was actually the city, downtown Mostar, yeah.

6 Q. And why were you located or stationed actually in Siroki Brijeg at

7 that time?

8 A. Well, at that time, of course, for security reasons, they

9 transferred the CC from Mostar to Siroki Brijeg.

10 Q. And we are going to talk a little bit about the ECMM structure,

11 for the Chamber's benefit, in a couple of minutes but you arrived then in

12 Siroki Brijeg on approximately the 24th of May 1993; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct, sir.

14 Q. Now you've made reference already to something called the ECMM

15 coordination centre in Mostar, and in ECMM terminology, and the Chamber

16 will see this on documents, I believe today, was Coordination Centre

17 frequently abbreviated as CC?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Was there already -- were there already ECMM monitoring teams in

20 Herzegovina when you arrived?

21 A. Absolutely, that's right.

22 Q. Approximately how many teams were they and where were they

23 primarily located?

24 A. When you are talking about Bosnia-Herzegovina, there was various

25 teams, the exact number I don't recall now, but...

Page 7322

1 Q. Specifically in the Mostar region.

2 A. In the Mostar region, actually, four and when I started actually

3 three. That means there was M1 in Jablanica, M2 was the Mostar team, and

4 M3 was the team for the area of south of Mostar located in Medjugorje.

5 Three teams, and later on there came another team in Livno, Tomislavgrad.

6 But that was at the end of my tour, actually.

7 Q. Specifically, team M2 was the Mostar monitoring team; is that

8 correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And you served in team M2 during the entire time of your in the

11 Mostar region?

12 A. All the time, sir.

13 Q. At the time that you arrived in Siroki Brijeg, can you tell the

14 Chamber, please, who was the superior officer, the person in charge of the

15 Mostar coordination centre?

16 A. Well, at that time, it was a German retired colonel, his name was

17 Klaus Nissen, and he was in charge of the CC Mostar.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. And let's say responsible for the output of the three teams.

20 Q. And is it correct, sir, just looking ahead a bit, that in

21 approximately early July 1993, Colonel Nissen was followed in this

22 position as the head of CC Mostar by a British -- retired British officer

23 named Sir Martin Garrod?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. In the ECMM organisational structure, above the coordination

Page 7323

1 centres, the CCs, was there something called a regional centre?

2 A. That's correct. The structure was everywhere the same, and in our

3 particular area, RC Zenica was manned by a full ambassador and at that

4 time, Jean-Pierre Thebault, a career ambassador, French from France.

5 Q. All right. So in your chain of command, so to speak, CC Mostar

6 reported to RC or regional centre Zenica, which is located more in Central

7 Bosnia north of Sarajevo; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, could the speakers make a pause

10 between answer and question. Thank you.


12 Q. Did you hear that?

13 A. Absolutely.

14 Q. Because we are both speaking in English, we both tend to go

15 quickly between --

16 A. We are too fast.

17 Q. -- question and answer.

18 A. Okay.

19 Q. Colonel, can you explain to the Chamber briefly what ECMM's

20 mission was in the Mostar region at that time.

21 A. Well, the main aim of the mission was to monitor the situation all

22 over in Bosnia and especially, in my case, the Mostar area. I have to say

23 that ECMM was, of course, a political organisation with a non-military

24 structure but only in the field, let's say. The field work, was done by

25 most international officers and sometimes a diplomat but only on the RC

Page 7324

1 level you will find actually ambassador's level.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Monitoring the situation, working on all the international

4 agreements at that moment, and of course trying to improve the agreements,

5 let's say, on the overall political level, but especially a lower level in

6 the area of operations, the agreements between all parties involved. That

7 was one important point. And for the rest, to coordinate with IOs,

8 international organisations, and NGOs, non-government organisations, to

9 make clear what was going on in the area, actually, for ECMM, the head of

10 mission in Zagreb who was reporting every 24 hours to all the AU

11 governments.

12 Q. All right. You said a moment ago that ECMM was a political

13 organisation. It might assist the Chamber if I put the question to you

14 this way: How was the mission of ECMM different than the mission of

15 UNPROFOR, the UN military force, if you will?

16 A. Well, we were dealing on the political level, actually, and had

17 both access to the political authorities and military, depending on the

18 situation.

19 Q. Now, during the time that you were on duty in the Mostar region,

20 did you work primarily with a Spanish monitor, a major from the Spanish

21 army, named Jesus Armatriain?

22 A. That's correct. Due to the situation that UNPROFOR, who was

23 monitoring the situation for the UN, but with military units, the area of

24 responsibility where Mostar was situated in was the area of the Spanish

25 Battalion. And due to that situation, all the teams who were operating in

Page 7325

1 that area had as team member at least one Spanish officer, and of course,

2 that had everything to do with the coordination and the possibility to

3 exchange information and to discuss things with the commander and most

4 important officers of the Spanish Battalion.

5 Q. All right. Colonel, just moving a bit more quickly through some

6 of the background, as you've already indicated, is it correct that it was

7 part of your regular day-to-day activities to be in communication with

8 such organisations as UNPROFOR, the UN military observers sometimes called

9 UNMOs, the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC, UNHCR, and

10 other, as you said, international organisations?

11 A. That's correct, sir.

12 Q. Would you briefly describe to the Chamber, because we will be

13 looking at a number of your reports in the course of your testimony, I

14 believe, the reporting mechanisms that you followed during your tour in

15 the Mostar region.

16 A. Yeah. What we did as a team, we made every day a daily report,

17 and the daily report of the teams were discussed at the CC, the

18 coordination centre, and then by approval of all the members and approval

19 of the chief of the CC, there was, at the end of the day, a final report

20 of the CC that was sent to Zenica. And that was the daily routine.

21 Q. All right. Now, as the Chamber will see for themselves in a few

22 minutes, did it become your custom during your time there, to sign the

23 reports or have the reports over the name of a nickname that you used

24 called "The Flying Dutchman"?

25 A. That's correct, sir.

Page 7326

1 Q. And likewise, did Mr. Armatriain frequently use the nickname

2 "Amigo Jesus"?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, turning to your actual time on

5 the ground, when you first arrived in Mostar, what was the state of the --

6 the physical condition and the appearance of Mostar when you arrived in

7 late May, 1993?

8 A. Well, when I went into Mostar the first time, I think it was on

9 the 25th of May, I saw -- entering from the west side, that was, of

10 course, the situation, I saw a quite destroyed city, and let's say going

11 from the west bank to the east side, by passing the confrontation line, it

12 looked like previous impressions I got from Beirut; a totally destroyed

13 situation, actually.

14 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, how, by what type of vehicle did

15 you and your colleagues move around at that time?

16 A. Well, fortunately, we were travelling in an armoured Mercedes

17 jeep.

18 Q. And I'll just take the opportunity to ask you this now: Was it

19 true, sir, that during the course of your tour, that you and your

20 colleague in a jeep were fired on and the jeep was struck by bullets on at

21 least two occasions?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Now, around the time that you arrived in Mostar, did you -- was

24 there something called a joint commission, and if you could briefly tell

25 the Chamber what that was?

Page 7327

1 A. A joint commission was actually the local three-party meeting

2 where we tried to implement the agreements that were valid at that moment.

3 In the beginning, it was shared by the UNMOs, the UN military observers,

4 and later on, when they didn't enter the city any more, we took over

5 actually. And both parties, that means from west and east side, the

6 authorities involved were coming to the west bank and sometimes we

7 organised it at the east bank, the east side of Mostar, to discuss all the

8 hot items according to the ongoing agreement or the situation, the bad

9 situation in Mostar, to relieve the situation for the people, of course.

10 Q. To the extent that you can briefly remember, can you tell us, can

11 you identify the representatives who typically participated in this

12 commission on behalf of the HVO side?

13 A. Well, we had various meetings, of course, but the main players I

14 remember very well were, from the east side, at that time Colonel Pasalic,

15 commander 4th Armija Corps; one of his subordinates, commanders, Humo,

16 because he was speaking also English very well; and from the HVO side,

17 Stanko Maric, colonel of HVO in that area, and I don't remember his rank

18 but I think he was Major Puljic, also commander of HVO at that moment.

19 That were the people who were most of the time always a part of the

20 meeting but it was almost depending on the issues. So what I tried to say

21 is that the audience around the table changed according to the subjects,

22 of course.

23 Q. All right. Now, Mr. President, if I might be allowed to assist,

24 I'm looking at the transcript of the witness's testimony. Colonel, in

25 line 13, Colonel Pasalic would be P-A-S-A-L-I-C, I believe commander of

Page 7328

1 the 4th Armija, A-R-M-I-J-A, Corps.

2 And I think the one officer on the line 17, it would be Puljic,

3 which I believe, and the colonel can correct me, P-U-L-J-I-C.

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Now, can you relate, please, to the Chamber, were there any times

6 when people from outside of these meetings would appear at the meeting or

7 outside the meeting and attempt to disrupt or interfere with the meetings

8 of the joint commission?

9 A. Yeah, that happened several times that I remember once very well.

10 We had a meeting at that time in a school building on the west side, so

11 Colonel Pasalic was brought by UNPROFOR to the west side, and just before

12 we started the meeting, a man with some soldiers came to the building and

13 tried to enter the building, actually, heavily shouting but also shooting

14 in the air.

15 Q. Do you recall the name of the leader of this group?

16 A. Yeah. We asked actually our interpreter who it was, and she said,

17 "Well, he is well known in this area as Juka."

18 Q. And did you ever hear any full or other parts of this man's name

19 other than Juka?

20 A. Not that I remember completely but it's in my statement due to the

21 notes that I made at that time.

22 Q. All right. And just briefly tell us what more, if anything,

23 happened when Juka and these men came to the meeting? Was -- were they

24 able, in fact, to take Colonel Pasalic out of the building?

25 A. Well, that kind of meetings were protected by UNPROFOR so there

Page 7329

1 was a platoon always guarding the school. So he was not able to enter the

2 building but the meeting was not held due to that intimidation. It was a

3 very tense situation and, finally, UNPROFOR was able to get Pasalic and

4 his delegation into the APC and brought them back to the east side.

5 Q. Now, did you know at that time, or come to understand, to what

6 military organisation Juka belonged?

7 A. Yeah. I am, because by the information we got in Zagreb, I got in

8 Zagreb, actually, by the briefings of the previous members of team Mostar

9 in Siroki Brijeg, and by all the information we got from UN, and UNPROFOR,

10 we knew that Juka was one of the commanders, one of the Special Forces of

11 -- used by HVO in Mostar.

12 Q. And as part of this same briefing and information available to

13 you, did you know who Juka's superior officer was?

14 A. Well, in that organisation, we knew that a man named Tuta was in

15 charge of two special units; one commander was called Andabak and the

16 other was Juka, just mentioned in this event.

17 Q. You mentioned just now the name Tuta. Do you recall this morning

18 the full name of the man called Tuta?

19 A. Well, my Serbo-Croatian is not so good but I think that his full

20 name is Naletilic.

21 Q. All right. And did you have occasion to see this Tuta during your

22 tour in the Mostar region in 1993?

23 A. We saw a few times, but never in Mostar itself. We saw him in his

24 car, driving from Siroki Brijeg to Mostar or the other way around, and we

25 saw twice or three times in Siroki Brijeg.

Page 7330

1 Q. When you saw him travelling in an automobile, can you tell the

2 Chamber the type of automobile and whether he was accompanied by other

3 persons?

4 A. Well, he was driving in that time I think the most expensive car

5 in the region, a BMW from the 7 series, and always accompanied by strong,

6 young bodyguards, armed and, let's say in my perspective, showing some

7 macho behaviour.

8 Q. I would like the usher's assistance, please, and if you like, the

9 binder, maybe it's easiest if the binder could be put before the witness.

10 I think all the exhibits will be contained in the binder.

11 A. Thank.

12 Q. If I can direct your attention, sir, to what should be, I hope,

13 the first document in that binder, apart from any indices that might be

14 included, number P36.1. I would like you to look at that, please, and can

15 you identify for the Chamber such persons shown in that photograph as you

16 can identify.

17 A. Well, the men I know from this picture, second the left, was

18 Stanko Maric. We dealt a lot with him because he was one of the -- he was

19 actually the spokesman between the military HVO, HQ, headquarters in

20 Mostar. The man with -- in the middle, to his left side, is Andabak; and

21 Mr. Tuta was the smaller one left from Andabak.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. With the glasses.

24 Q. Colonel, just so the record is abundantly clear, I'm going to ask

25 you if you have a marker available there, and if not, I'll ask the usher

Page 7331

1 to assist you. Could you please in a way that won't obstruct the face of

2 these men, could you put a number 1 on the person you've identified as

3 Stanko Maric.

4 A. Right.

5 Q. Could you put a number 2 on the person you identified as

6 Mr. Andabak.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And would you please put a number 3 on the person you've

9 identified as Tuta.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. Just so the Chamber can see your markings, can we briefly put that

12 on the ELMO, please. All right, thank you very much. Now, apart from

13 seeing -- we can be finished with that for now, Usher, thank you. That

14 should be put back in the binder.

15 I'm reminded, of course, with the markings by the witness, that

16 will be given a new subnumber. Thank you.

17 Now, Colonel, you've indicated seeing Tuta several times, a number

18 of times in the Siroki Brijeg area. Did you ever learn or see any other

19 location where you understood this Tuta had an office or offices?

20 A. Yeah, we know because we were almost on daily basis in the MOD

21 building downtown Mostar to see one of the officials. We know that he had

22 an office there but we never saw him there. We never spoke actually to

23 him because he was playing a role in the background. That was our

24 impression.

25 Q. Let me take your answer by way of a few points of clarification.

Page 7332

1 When you say "MOD," you're talking about the HVO Ministry of Defence?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And when you say, "We know that he had an office there," who is

4 the "he" you're referring to?

5 A. Well, we got that information from our interpreter, who was, of

6 course, well informed about the local situation.

7 Q. All right. But were you inside, as you said, on a daily -- often

8 a daily basis inside this MOD building in Mostar?

9 A. Yeah, many times we started on the west side to see the officials

10 there and then we travelled through the confrontation line to the east

11 side to speak to the officials on the east side.

12 Q. In the course of those meetings, was one of these offices there

13 identified to you as the office of Tuta?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. If I can next direct your attention, please -- and just because of

16 numbering reasons, Mr. President, even though it's the next exhibit,

17 obviously, in sequence, it's actually at the back of the binders -- it is

18 Exhibit 532.1. It should be again the last document in the binders. It's

19 titled "Bosnia and Herzegovina warring factions" and, Witness, if you

20 could please turn to that. Can you tell the Chamber, first of all, what

21 type of document this is and how it is - if you are - that you're familiar

22 with it?

23 A. Are you talking about the last page?

24 Q. I'm talking for now the document in general. You should have --

25 on its face it should say, "Bosnia and Herzegovina warring factions,

Page 7333

1 edition number 6." It should be marked Exhibit P532.1.

2 A. Yeah. Well, this is a document provided to us by UNPROFOR.

3 Q. All right. As reflected on the first page, is it your

4 understanding that this document would reflect the information as stated

5 in the lower, right corner as at 22nd July, 1993?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. If I can direct your attention --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Would counsel please speak into the microphone.

9 MR. SCOTT: My apologies.

10 Q. I will count the pages down for everyone. I believe the 7th page,

11 Mr. President and Witness, if you start with the first cover page itself,

12 I believe if you go down approximately seven pages, there will be a page

13 which -- two top boxes on that page, one on the left and one on the right,

14 have the initials SPF. Do you have that, Witness?

15 A. I have it, sir.

16 Q. All right. Now, when you see the initials -- as a military

17 person, you see the marking SPF, what does that mean to you?

18 A. Special Forces.

19 Q. And just briefly as a military -- again, as a military man

20 familiar with these kinds of charts, is this sometimes called an ORDBAT,

21 an order of battle?

22 A. Well, yeah, a part of the order of battle, actually.

23 Q. All right. And can you explain, looking at the box on the left

24 side of the page, would you stop -- start at the top and work your way

25 down through that chart and tell us in military terms what that

Page 7334

1 indicates.

2 A. Well, the first box with SPF and the sign on top means a unit of

3 regiment size but it depends, of course, of the nation and organisation

4 how big that is. But actually, in the NATO organisation, it means at

5 least two battalions.

6 Q. What you're saying now, so everyone in the courtroom is clear,

7 when you say the marking you're referring to now, is that what we might

8 call Roman numeral III at the top of the box?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. That indicates a unit of at least something called regimental

11 size?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Continue, please.

14 A. Then you see the first, on the left side of the box, the "1" means

15 the number of the unit; and on the right side of the box, "SE" means

16 southeast. Then you see the place where it was located, at least the HQ,

17 the command post, Mostar, with a grid so YH 2898 is the grid on the map.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. Then you see in -- this comes from the Spanish Battalion. You see

20 "COM" and then a double point, "COM" stands for "commander" and then the

21 name of the man, M. Naletilic and then his nickname Tuta. And then it's

22 broke down in two subunits. In the structure, it means that he was in

23 charge of the two subunits. And then you see a subunits of company size,

24 and that means, in our terminology, 150 men, one company. Two units of

25 the same size with their various commanders, the left unit commanded by

Page 7335

1 Juka and the right commanded by Ivan Andabak. "Andavak" you see here but

2 we know him also as Andabak. I think that the Spanish Battalion made a

3 mistake, yeah.

4 Q. During your time in the Mostar region, starting first of all with

5 the subbox on the far left side, that is the one marked "Juka," so far as

6 you know, is that the same person that appeared at one or more of the

7 joint commission meetings in Mostar in an attempt to either seize Colonel

8 Pasalic or disrupt the meetings?

9 A. Absolutely, sir; positive.

10 Q. And can you also tell the judges, please, in the box to the right

11 of that, did you come to know that in fact this person Andabak or Andavak

12 was a Special Forces commander that you encountered and met with on a

13 number of occasions in that region during your tenure?

14 A. That's correct. We met him several times and especially in one

15 occasion, when he was commanding his unit.

16 Q. All right. Well, I think we will come to that in the course of

17 your testimony later, sir.

18 Now, Colonel, with that explanation, for which I thank you, can

19 you tell the Chamber, please, during the approximate four months or so

20 that you were on official assignment in the Mostar region, did you come

21 across or learn any information that would cause you to question the

22 accuracy of this organisational chart or, to the best of your knowledge,

23 would you say this is an accurate portrayal of the situation on the

24 ground?

25 A. Well, I think it was a very actual portrayal of the situation

Page 7336

1 because one of the -- of the tasks of the Spanish Battalion was to update

2 the military situation in the area, and that was done, of course, by the

3 Intel officer and we were in close contact with the commander, the Intel

4 officer and the operation officer of SpaBat. And this information also,

5 we worked actually always by not one source but we tried to confirm all

6 our information by, as much as possible, different sources. So the other

7 sources we had actually were the UNMOS. That was a separate organisation

8 also consisting of officers from various nations, working for the UN, and

9 supporting actually the UNPROFOR in the area. And we had, of course, our

10 own organisation, ECMM.

11 Q. Very well. Moving forward then, away from that particular

12 exhibit, as you took up your duties and moved around the region, did you

13 travel frequently from Siroki Brijeg into the city of Mostar?

14 A. On a daily basis, sir.

15 Q. And did you find that you typically had access to the city of

16 Mostar, that is, you were allowed to enter the city or did that change

17 from time to time?

18 A. Well, by our status, we had freedom of movement by the

19 international community, actually by the EU and the international

20 community, so most of the time we were able to do it but we had to pass at

21 least two checkpoints on our way downtown Mostar and sometimes we were

22 stopped and not allowed to go on, and always the reason was for our own

23 security.

24 Q. And the two checkpoints that you just mentioned, which army or

25 side, if you will, operated those checkpoints?

Page 7337

1 A. Well, we had to drive from Siroki Brijeg downtown Mostar always

2 through the western part, so the checkpoints on the west side between

3 Mostar, the entrance of Mostar and halfway, Siroki Brijeg, were manned and

4 controlled by HVO.

5 Q. Did you -- can you relate to the Chamber by way of introduction to

6 the next part of your testimony, did you come to hear reports that Muslim

7 families were being evicted or expelled in the West Mostar area?

8 A. Yeah, not only reports but we heard a lot from the local people on

9 both the west and east side, and got -- well, I have to explain that, when

10 we were in Mostar, that was always by daytime, so we went back before

11 darkness, also for security reasons, of course. So most of -- most of

12 actions were done during evening and night-time so we were confronted with

13 the results the next day.

14 Q. Can you -- before we move on further with that point, can you tell

15 the Chamber, did that appear to you during your tour of duty in the Mostar

16 region to be the pattern, that much of the conduct that you would hear

17 about would take place at times when ECMM and other international

18 observers were not in the area?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

20 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Mr. Scott, my colleague, has indicated

21 to the Trial Chamber he was going to lead this witness on background

22 matters but I believe he's still leading the witness, and I've been quiet,

23 but I object on leading and suggestive grounds, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, rephrase your question, please.

25 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7338

1 Q. You said a moment ago, sir, that for security reasons ECMM, the

2 monitoring team, in your case, M2, would leave Mostar around dark and

3 return to Siroki Brijeg; is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And when you would hear these reports -- and I'm going to ask you

6 about some of those in detail in a moment, but when did this conduct that

7 you were hearing about, when was most of that conduct taking place?

8 A. At night or during the night.

9 Q. And can you tell the Chamber what it is you were hearing that was

10 happening? What was being reported to you at that time?

11 A. Well, one of the sources was our interpreter because she was

12 living on the west side and a Muslim. She reported many times the next

13 day what she heard and what she saw. Further, it happened various times

14 that local people stopped us, knocked on our window, and came with notes

15 or stories about what happened last night.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. And then, of course, we had the information from the IOs and NCOs

18 who got that kind of information also by locals. So most of the time some

19 happenings were confirmed by different people.

20 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, by way of overview, what sort of

21 conduct was being reported to you; what was taking place during the

22 evening and at night when you weren't in Mostar?

23 A. Well, in general, the term "ethnic cleansing" is used for that,

24 but in Mostar especially, a lot of people was expelled from their home and

25 sent to the east side, forced by military men most of the time. That was

Page 7339

1 the overall impression we got during the whole period. And sometimes it

2 increased more when we came -- when I came into Mostar, we heard that kind

3 of rumours but especially in June, after the attack on the northern

4 barracks on the east side, the situation became worse and worse, and this

5 kind of information was increasing.

6 Q. In that regard, can I ask you please to go back to the first part

7 of the binder, that's been put in front of you, and going, directing your

8 attention to Exhibit 417.1 which should be the next exhibit after the

9 photograph, I hope for the most part the remaining part of your testimony,

10 the exhibits in the remaining part of your testimony, the exhibits will be

11 more or less in order.

12 But looking at Exhibit P417.1, can you tell us what that is and

13 how that, if it did, came into your possession? What it means.

14 A. Yes, sir. This is a note written by our team M3 from Medjugorje.

15 Well, the text is clear, I think. And what you see on the page is my

16 handwriting and this was one of the notes I made at that time. Maybe it's

17 good to explain how we come to -- how I came to such a detailed statement,

18 because I found during the investigation, a lot of papers and even almost

19 all my daily reports on diskette, what I put on diskette eight years ago.

20 Q. All right. Can you just, before we take turn to some of the

21 content, you said a moment ago that the handwriting on the page, at least

22 for the most part, is yours. For instance, on the right side, there is

23 the notation 28 May 1993. Is that your handwriting?

24 A. That's my handwriting and that means that I received this message

25 and reconfirmed this message at that day.

Page 7340

1 Q. And it seems to be, I won't say signed, but over -- the text seems

2 to be above and over a reference called "Tertio." Can you tell us what

3 that means?

4 A. "Tertio" means 3, as you know, and it stands for M3, the team from

5 Medjugorje.

6 Q. Now, directing your attention to the note itself, on the second

7 line, it says, "The male persons [Mike of course]..." Now can you explain

8 to the Chamber what the reference to "Mike" means?

9 A. Yes, "Mike" means the explanation for the letter M in the NATO

10 spelled alphabet, and it means here Muslim. Male persons. Muslim male

11 persons.

12 Q. As you say, I think most of the text probably speaks for itself

13 and if the judges have questions, they will have an opportunity, Colonel,

14 to ask you about that later. I won't spend too much time on it in the

15 interests of time.

16 Below that, again, in is it your writing where it says "100

17 confirmed cases"?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. What does that mean?

20 A. That means that, with this message, we got a lot of information

21 downtown at that day what confirmed this message actually by locals. So I

22 made a small note and said, well, at least it should be 100 persons who

23 were expelled actually.

24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, in terms of your working practices or

25 the ECMM's practices, perhaps, what does it mean to say "confirmed"?

Page 7341

1 A. "Confirmed" means that initial information we got, let's say what

2 starts as a rumour, is confirmed by other sources and then it makes the

3 information quite reliable, and we only call it confirmed information when

4 it at least was coming from two or more different sources.

5 Q. When you say under "100 confirmed cases," it says, if I read it

6 correctly - and correct me if I'm wrong -"occupation of houses/apartments

7 by HVO." What does that refer to?

8 A. Well, that refers to the pattern of working. What happened was

9 that people were expelled, Muslim people, and their houses were occupied

10 by HVO soldiers. They put immediately, for instance, stickers on the door

11 and changed the name on the door. We saw that. We went to places where

12 we saw the change of names actually.

13 Q. That was my next question. Directing your attention to

14 approximately the 1st of June, 1993, did you have the opportunity to see

15 some of this in your own eyes -- with your own eyes?

16 A. That's correct, sir.

17 Q. Tell the Chamber what you observed at that time.

18 A. Once we had the opportunity after picking up our interpreter, the

19 opportunity to go to a place where such a thing happened by her

20 information, because that night she was informed about what happened to a

21 family, we went to that place and saw what was the result of that night,

22 and I took some photographs of that place as a kind of proof, of course.

23 Q. Can you just describe to the Chamber what you saw, what was the

24 condition of the apartment when you saw it at that time.

25 A. Well, we saw that the door was damaged, I don't -- can't remember

Page 7342

1 exactly what it was but it looks like that it was hit by a bullet at

2 least, and inside the house and the room we entered, we saw bullet impacts

3 in the ceiling and it was an enormous mess. It seems to be a place what

4 was searched and maybe looted.

5 Q. Now, can you -- do you recall on about that same day, the 1st of

6 June, 1993, was one of the occasions when the joint commission had a

7 meeting in West Mostar?

8 A. Well, I think so. When it's in the statement, for sure that is

9 correct. I don't know by heart all the meetings we had, of course, with

10 daytime group.

11 Q. Of course, and we are going to go to some of your reports in

12 fairly short order. Let me ask you this way and then if we need to refer

13 to your report, I'll ask the Chamber's permission to show you your report

14 so you can refresh your memory. But the times when you mentioned Juka

15 Prazina coming to these meetings, did that happen only once or more than

16 once?

17 A. Once that we were really threatened but we saw him a second time

18 strolling around the place actually with his men. But it was once that he

19 really tried to enter the building and was threatening Colonel Pasalic.

20 Q. All right. I want to turn your attention for a few moments to the

21 hospital that was on the east side of Mostar. During the course of your

22 duties there, did you visit the East Mostar hospital on a number of

23 occasions?

24 A. That's correct, sir. We had on daily base, when it was possible,

25 a visit to the headquarters of the Armija. And most of the time we

Page 7343

1 visited there also other authorities and one of the important places at

2 that time was the war hospital.

3 Q. Can you briefly describe to the Chamber, and I will tell you

4 Colonel, the Chamber has heard or received some information about the

5 hospital already, but what was the general conditions at the hospital on

6 the occasions when you were there?

7 A. Well, especially in the month of June, the situation in the war

8 hospital was very, very bad. And what we did, we had was the chef de

9 clinique most of the time contact to deal with, to hear from him the

10 problems he had. At that time I very well remember that they were

11 operating 24 hours, around the clock, with a very small group of

12 specialists under, let's say, circumstances that was very, very, very bad.

13 Q. All right. What was the nature, if you can tell us briefly, about

14 the supply or availability of medical equipment and medicine?

15 A. Well, at that time, the east bank was isolated and there was no

16 support for the war hospital from the west side.

17 Q. Now, did there come a time when Colonel Pasalic asked if some

18 medical supplies or personnel could be provided from the hospital in the

19 Croat or west part of Mostar?

20 A. Yeah, we got a request, official request signed by Pasalic to

21 support the war hospital on the east side by a proposal to exchange

22 specialists from the west to the east bank and vice versa, and also later

23 on, when we contacted the chef de clinique of the war hospital, there came

24 the requests for the most important medication and medical equipment.

25 Q. Now was one of the persons you dealt with at the HVO hospital

Page 7344

1 a person named Ivan Bagaric?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. What was his position or title there, what was his role there?

4 A. When I recall well, he was in charge of the hospital or the deputy

5 at that moment, but that changed sometimes.

6 Q. Did you meet with this Mr. Bagaric on a number of occasions?

7 A. Yeah, because he was in charge and actually the spokesman to us

8 and we tried to establish that exchange and tried to get medication and

9 medical equipment from the west side to the east side and he was actually

10 the spokesman so we dealt with him all the time, or most of the time I

11 have to say.

12 Q. Can you briefly describe to the Chamber how in your experience Mr.

13 Bagaric was dressed and equipped at the time that you met -- at the times

14 you met with him.

15 A. Well, it was not exactly the picture I have from a chef de

16 clinique or a specialist, a doctor. Well, he was wearing a white doctor's

17 coat, but under that coat he was wearing his camouflage uniform and he was

18 armed with a pistol.

19 Q. Now, did there come a time, however, when some medical supplies

20 were provided by the HVO hospital in West Mostar that were then

21 transmitted or communicated to the east side hospital?

22 A. That's correct. Well, actually, we took a lot of effort to get

23 some of the list from the west side to the east side, but not the most --

24 the badly-needed equipment, for instance, oxygen and ambulance which they

25 were asking for, was not provided. So we are talking then about bandages

Page 7345

1 and medication.

2 Q. Directing your attention to around the 11th of June 1993, was this

3 an occasion when some medical supplies were in fact transported from the

4 west side to the east side hospital?

5 A. That's correct. We were able, at the end, to organise and

6 transport by UNPROFOR from the west to the east bank to bring the first

7 part of the medical stuff to the east side.

8 Q. And was an UNPROFOR officer killed on that day while this shipment

9 of medical supplies was being made?

10 A. Unfortunately, the platoon commander, who was standing above his

11 APC, was instantly killed by sniper fire.

12 Q. Was that a Spanish Battalion officer by the name of Lieutenant

13 Aguilar?

14 A. That's correct, sir.

15 Q. In your military experience, did you come to have any

16 understanding of how it was that he was killed; the type of ammunition

17 that was used and the approximate location from which the shot came?

18 A. Yeah, it happened in the evening. We were not there but, of

19 course, by the information of various authorities, the Spanish Battalion,

20 for instance, UNSFPO, the UN civilian police --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

22 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object. There is an

23 absolute lack of foundation. This witness has already testified he was

24 not present, his group and unit was not present. It's pure speculation,

25 we're going into the area of pure speculation at this point and I object.

Page 7346

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, let us hear the whole story and then

2 we will make the right conclusion after the testimony of this witness.

3 You may continue, Witness.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. By all the information we

5 got, and by our experience, driving from the west to the east side and the

6 place where the officer was hit -- the place, I mean the situation -- the

7 place exactly where the APC was hit, made very clear to us that the bullet

8 was fired from the west bank, and by our experience of the situation, even

9 by shot almost at the same place earlier, it should come from the blue

10 bank building on the west side.

11 Q. And it may assist the Chamber for the record purposes, when you

12 say "blue bank building," what does that mean? What building did that

13 describe or represent to you?

14 A. Well, on the HVO west side, I have to say on the west side, HVO

15 was manning an old bank building with blue glasses. I think that it was

16 11 storeys, 11 -- I miss the name of -- 11 floors, sorry, 11 floors, was

17 manned by snipers, they -- and it was a building that dominated actually

18 the confrontation line. And they had a line of sight from that building

19 through the so-called Tito bridge in the middle of the centre, up to the

20 eastern side. So it was possible from that building to oversee that part

21 of the road and the bridge.

22 Q. Now, Witness, skipping a couple of exhibits which we will come

23 back to -- as I indicated earlier, the documents are not exactly, for

24 various reasons, in the order of your testimony, but if I could direct

25 your attention and the courtroom's attention, please, to Exhibit P451.1,

Page 7347

1 which they should be, Mr. President, should be able to find the documents

2 in numerical exhibit number order, so if you proceed through the binder,

3 you should be able to come to Exhibit 451.1.

4 And Witness, I'll ask you just a couple of questions about this

5 document before, I think, the 11.00 recess. Is Exhibit 451.1 a letter or

6 a communication that was received by ECMM at that time or dated the 12th

7 of June 1993, by this commander ABIH commander named Pasalic?

8 A. I'm sorry, sir, but I didn't find so far the document.

9 Q. If you keep, hopefully, going down through your binder, it may be

10 some pages because there is both an English version and a translation of

11 these documents, so it may take you some pages but if you will just keep

12 leafing through the binder, please, until you get to Exhibit 451.1.

13 Perhaps the usher can assist. It's dated the 12th of June, 1993.

14 A. Right, yeah. Got it.

15 Q. Just to repeat my question, and then we are kind of approaching

16 now at this point the 11.00 hour, but can you just tell us, is that a

17 communication that ECMM received around this time from the ABIH commander

18 Pasalic?

19 A. That's correct, sir.

20 Q. Did it happen on a number of occasions that Colonel Pasalic would

21 bring a protest or objections or things to the ECMM's attention?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Now, directing your attention to the next to last paragraph of

24 that letter, can you confirm to the Chamber that it was approximately on

25 the 11th of June, 1993, when this UNPROFOR contingent was fired on in

Page 7348

1 which Lieutenant Aguilar was killed?

2 A. That's correct, sir. But I have to say, of course, that both

3 parties in our investigation and our questions, accused each other, of

4 course.

5 Q. Yes. As you said a moment ago -- and this will be my last

6 question, Mr. President, before the recess, if that's the Chamber's

7 desire. Were you able to determine nonetheless, sir, from which side of

8 -- given the way that Mr. -- excuse me, Lieutenant Aguilar was struck,

9 from which side of the confrontation line the shot came that killed

10 Lieutenant Aguilar?

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Meek?

12 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, my objection is that

13 question has been asked and answered. It's repetitive.

14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, we also believe that the witness has

15 answered this question already.

16 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Mr. President, I would suggest that that's

17 a time, a convenient point to stop.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Usher, would you please take the

19 witness out of the room first.

20 We will resume at 11.30.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, please continue.

24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I apologise for any discourtesy that

25 might have appeared; I failed to introduce the Chamber to Ms. Marie-Ursula

Page 7349

1 Kind who will be standing in for Ms. Fleming for a couple of days. My

2 apologies for not introducing her sooner.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.


5 Q. Colonel, I'm going to try to shorten my questions related to the

6 hospital on the east side of Mostar down to two or three, if I can. Did

7 you engage in a number of discussions through your tour of duty in the

8 Mostar region with Mr. Bagaric and others in an attempt to obtain

9 assistance from the HVO for the medical conditions on the east -- in East

10 Mostar?

11 A. That's correct, sir.

12 Q. And can you just simply relate to the Chamber at the end of the

13 day, so to speak, by the end of your tour, how much if any assistance had

14 the HVO side in fact provided?

15 A. Well, the bottom line actually was of our -- all our efforts, that

16 there came no exchange of specialists, and once medical equipment, well,

17 let's say medical supplies, were brought to the east, another time I think

18 that we brought some to Jablanica, but that was -- that was all. That

19 means that there were a lot of preconditions and the willingness, at the

20 end, of HVO to secure the whole operation was never -- never established.

21 Q. Now, moving on, apart from the hospital to the conditions in East

22 Mostar in general, can you briefly describe to the Chamber what you

23 observed in terms of the supply of food and water in East Mostar at that

24 time.

25 A. We are talking, for instance, about the month of June, it became

Page 7350

1 worse and worse. The running water has to come from the west side by two

2 pipelines and over the river Neretva, so it was controlled at the west

3 side, and I remember that in a certain time bracket, one of the supplies

4 was stopped. It means that all the population on the east side were in

5 trouble, and especially, of course, the war hospital, by having no running

6 water. Also the food situation became more and more bad due to the

7 impossibility to get UNHCR convoys to the east bank, so they ran out of

8 water, they ran out of food.

9 Q. Did you approach representatives on the HVO side about allowing

10 humanitarian aid into East Mostar, and if so, what was the response?

11 A. We did that all the time to get the UNHCR and the Red Cross also

12 into town and to the east, at the east side, but due to the dangerous

13 situation, the increasing of shellings and sniper fire, they decided not

14 to enter the city any more or visit the east bank. So for security

15 reasons, they didn't show up, and at the very last, we were the only

16 international organisation, by our armoured jeep, who were able to cross

17 and to visit all the places on the west and east side.

18 Q. If I can ask you to look next at -- and I hope this one will be

19 easier to find, back toward the beginning of the binder, if I can ask your

20 attention, please, to be given to Exhibit P435.1.

21 A. 11th of June, you mean?

22 Q. I believe the letter itself is dated the 7th of June so perhaps a

23 bit further in the other direction for the beginning.

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Can you just tell the Chamber what that document is.

Page 7351

1 A. Well, this is one of the protest letters we received in copy from

2 the commander of the 4th Armija Corps, Colonel Pasalic, that describes the

3 situation on the east bank.

4 Q. All right. And for instance, on the top of the -- upper right

5 corner of the first -- very corner, but the upper right part, portion of

6 the first page, does appear to be addressed to ECMM?

7 A. That's correct. That are we. That means he handed it over to us,

8 and on the second page, you see that it was additional sent to UNPROFOR,

9 the Red Cross, UNHCR and HVO.

10 Q. All right. Now, Colonel, if you can just look at the text of that

11 document for a moment or two, just ask you one or two questions about it.

12 But I'll give you a chance to look at it for a moment.

13 A. Well, in general, this -- these are complaints he made to us many

14 times by our visits and now he put that once more on paper.

15 Q. I want to ask you, Colonel, without -- I'm not asking you to agree

16 to the particular terminology or some of the adjectives, perhaps, that Mr.

17 Pasalic, Colonel Pasalic used, but in terms of the conditions that are

18 described, in terms of, for instance, the hospital, the food and water

19 situation in East Mostar, would you agree that that was an accurate

20 statement of the conditions that then existed?

21 A. I agree on -- upon the overall situation he describes.

22 Q. Can you just tell the Chamber what was your practice when these

23 sorts of communications would come from persons such as Pasalic and

24 perhaps others? Would you communicate these things on to, for instance,

25 again as we heard this morning, RC Zenica?

Page 7352

1 A. That's correct. We checked if the parties mentioned on the second

2 page sent to were informed and we always added this as copy to our reports

3 to Zenica. From all this official letters from both sides, we always

4 attached that to our reports to Zenica and to our own organisation.

5 Q. Can you just briefly confirm to the Chamber on about the 7th of

6 June, 1993, was your vehicle fired on again? Just briefly relate that,

7 those facts to the Chamber.

8 A. Correct. That happened when it was the second time on our way

9 from Medjugorje back to Mostar. Well, first we thinking about flat tire

10 but we found out by inspecting the car that it was another direct hit

11 actually by a bullet.

12 Q. Now, apart from rifle fire, can you tell the Chamber, were you

13 ever -- was your vehicle ever fired upon by some sort of explosive shell

14 or device?

15 A. Well, we had another bad experience, I don't remember exactly when

16 it was but you can find that in my statement, very close to the

17 confrontation line and close to the blue bank building, we -- when we were

18 out of the vehicle, into a building, a rocket was fired just -- just near

19 the vehicle.

20 Q. When you say "just near the vehicle," can you tell the Chamber

21 approximately what distance, if you recall, the impact of the shell or

22 rocket to your vehicle?

23 A. Between five and ten metres. But the effect of an anti-armour

24 grenade is enormous on that distance, of course.

25 Q. Can you just describe to the Chamber a little bit more about this

Page 7353

1 vehicle that you were driving? Frankly, Colonel, I have not put certain

2 other materials in the record just because of the abundance of the

3 material that the Chamber already is confronted with but can you just

4 describe the vehicle that you were driving throughout your tour of duty.

5 What did it look like and how would it appear to people seeing it?

6 A. Well, it was, as I said before, a Mercedes armoured jeep, provided

7 by the German government, and it was painted white with big orange

8 letters, ECMM. On the antenna, we had our blue flag, so for everyone in

9 the area it was very, very clear that that was the ECMM mission driving

10 around. And also we were at that time all the time actually dressed in

11 white uniforms -- well, not uniforms but white suits, actually.

12 Q. By the way, can you tell the Chamber, were you during your time in

13 Bosnia as an ECMM member, were you or other ECMM members ever armed?

14 A. No, not being a military organisation, we were not armed.

15 Q. And was that -- to your knowledge, was that fact widely known?

16 A. For sure because we were on daily basis dealing with all the

17 parties so they know exactly who we were.

18 Q. Now, before we move on, this rocket or shell that you've

19 mentioned, you mentioned this was in close proximity to what you've

20 described as the blue bank building. Were you ever -- were you able to

21 make any determination or observation as to approximately where that shell

22 had come from?

23 A. Well, the only possibility, according to the place and the

24 distance and the impact of the projectile, it should be fired from the

25 blue bank building. I don't know why, but it's easily, it's an easy guess

Page 7354

1 to intimidate us. I hope so, that that was the reason, and not to hit us.

2 Q. You've mentioned this morning already a man named Stanko Maric.

3 Was he one of the persons you met with on the HVO side on a number of

4 occasions?

5 A. Many times because he was the military spokesman to us.

6 Q. What was his role or position, as best as you came to understand

7 it at that time?

8 A. Well, he gave the official answers upon our questions and that

9 were, of course, questions directed directly to the military HVO

10 organisation, and he was, of course, always a part in the beginning of the

11 -- of the joint commission meetings.

12 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, Colonel, based on the words that

13 Mr. Maric said and the conduct that you observed, what appeared to be his

14 political position or views about what was happening in Mostar at that

15 time?

16 A. Well, most of the time, the official standpoint of HVO was that

17 they controlled the situation on the west bank and when something occurred

18 where they didn't had an explanation for, then sometimes but not often,

19 they referred to uncontrolled elements, criminal elements, I have to say,

20 and that they were working on law and order, to get rid of these or to

21 catch these criminal elements. He particularly showed to be a strong

22 nationalist, for -- in all HVO matters, actually. So he was quite a tough

23 guy to discuss with hot items and we always had, of course, let's say, hot

24 questions.

25 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, and again drawing on your

Page 7355

1 professional military experience and specifically your experience while in

2 the Mostar region in 1993, can you share any observation with the Chamber

3 about the explanation that these various bad acts were only being carried

4 out by so-called uncontrolled, criminal elements?

5 A. Well, by all the knowledge, everything we saw and heard at that

6 time, we don't believe that that was the right answer.

7 Q. Can you tell the Chamber why you say that?

8 A. We think, and we had a lot of indications, actually, that, for

9 instance, ethnic cleansing, expelling people from the west to the east

10 bank, was well organised, and not only by a few criminal elements.

11 That's, when you talk about the numbers, for instance, almost impossible,

12 and it was always done, of course, by night, that has to be done very

13 quickly and well organised. Otherwise, it's impossible to do so.

14 Q. Before coming back to some of those in fact events, expulsions,

15 let me turn your attention to a place called the Heliodrom. Did you have

16 an opportunity to visit the Heliodrom during your assignment in the Mostar

17 region?

18 A. We had, sir. It was one of our jobs to get access to, on both

19 sides, the prisons. So by the permission of the deputy chief of the

20 military police, Mr. Pusic, we went to the Heliodrom to do an inquiry

21 actually at that place.

22 Q. And did you meet with any officials, HVO officials, at the

23 Heliodrom itself?

24 A. Well, we met there the deputy commander, I don't recall his name

25 at this moment. The commander was not there, that's for sure. We showed

Page 7356

1 him our permission, he was well aware of our visit, and we had the

2 opportunity to see and to speak to the prisoners.

3 Q. I'd like you, Witness, please, to turn to Exhibit 451, which I

4 hope will be easier to find. We may be skipping -- we might be skipping

5 one document, but if you'll just leaf down through the binder several

6 pages, hopefully you will come to what's marked in the lower right corner

7 as Exhibit P451 and tell me if you have that.

8 A. Yeah, it's the 8th of June, daily report, you mean?

9 Q. I think it's a different date. Exhibit specifically 451.

10 A. 451? The 11th of June?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Okay.

13 Q. Now --

14 A. I have it.

15 Q. -- Colonel, what I'd like to do for a few moments, because this is

16 the first one of your reports that we are going to look at in a bit more

17 detail, is orient the Chamber, if you will, with these, again, these

18 reports, because I believe that the Chamber and Defence counsel will see a

19 number of these reports either in connection with your testimony or other

20 evidence in the case.

21 A. Right, sir.

22 Q. Now, is this, what's marked as Exhibit P451, would this be more or

23 less typical of the daily report that you indicated to us this morning

24 would be prepared by your team and other ECMM teams?

25 A. That's correct, sir.

Page 7357

1 Q. I --

2 A. Sorry.

3 Q. No, please go ahead.

4 A. It was in fixed format we used -- all the teams used, actually --

5 and you see the headlines, General Situation, Places Visit, People Met at

6 that time, the Vance-Owen peace plan implementation and other subjects and

7 an assessment for our headquarters, or let's say, regional centre in

8 Zenica.

9 Q. All right. So starting towards the top of the first page, not the

10 very top but down some centimetres from the top of the page dated 11 June,

11 1993, there is a reference under what might be a heading Monitor Team

12 Report, Team M2-Mostar. As you told us this morning, then, that would be

13 the ECMM team M2 that you were part of?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And the report going to and as you've indicated RC Zenica, that

16 would be the next higher level of the ECMM office or mission located in

17 Zenica; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Now you've just indicated the structure that follows would be

20 typical of these reports, as you said, General Situation, Places Visited,

21 Meetings/People Met; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And one more general question, just maybe some much curiosity as

24 anything else: Up toward again the top of the page, about the 4th line

25 of text, it says NL BURUM. Can you just tell the Chamber what BURUM

Page 7358

1 refers to?

2 A. Well, that was the system we sent via satellite our report and

3 encrypted actually.

4 Q. So that was a secure satellite communication system?

5 A. That's correct, sir.

6 Q. All right. Now, going down to item number 3, Meetings, People

7 Met, does the third person -- does the third entry indicate in fact that

8 on about the 11th of June one of the people you met was the deputy

9 director HVO prison, Heliodrom?

10 A. Correct. That's what I'm talking about.

11 Q. All right, and turning then to the next page, referring to item

12 numbered 5, do you there give a report about your visit to the Heliodrom?

13 A. That's correct, sir.

14 Q. All right. I think primarily, sir, that witness -- excuse me, the

15 document will speak for itself, but just so the record is clear, what

16 you've written down here in terms of the numbers of prisoners, for

17 instance, "60 to 70 HVO soldiers, [criminals]," were you recording here

18 information provided to you by the HVO deputy director of the prison?

19 A. That's correct, because we were unable, of course, to count all

20 the prisoners ourselves. We saw a lot, we talked to a lot of them, but

21 these figures actually came from the deputy commander.

22 Q. And as indicated in your report, did you have occasion to in fact

23 talk to, presumably through interpretation, some of the prisoners?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, in your -- based on what you

Page 7359

1 learned that day, did these people know why they were being held?

2 A. No. They didn't know. A lot were arrested without knowing for

3 what. There was no charge, there was no -- they were not accused from

4 something, and they didn't know actually how long they had to stay there.

5 They were even people in isolation cells we visited, who were there from

6 April on, younger and also old men, who didn't know why they were there in

7 isolation.

8 Q. Following the -- I'm not sure if I want to say visit or tour, but

9 following your actual time moving about the facility, did you then go back

10 and speak with the deputy director again and have questions for him?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. And can you relate to the Chamber, as best you can recall, and you

13 can refer to your report if it assists you, what questions did you put to

14 him and what answers did you receive?

15 A. Well, the questions, let's say that what I just told you were the

16 questions, of course, the most important questions. We talked about the

17 very poor conditions. I remember almost 60 men, for instance, in one

18 room. They were complaining about the food, and his answer was actually

19 that they were under investigation and for most of the questions, we had

20 to direct to Mr. Coric or Bozic, the chief and deputy chief of the

21 military police of HVO, sorry, Croatian panel.

22 Q. And in fact, is that information generally reflected on the top

23 part of the next page of your report, as it continues over to under

24 Assessment?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7360

1 Q. Now, as I asked you earlier, looking at this document, and again

2 because the Chamber will see other documents like this, was that the way

3 that you and your colleague typically signed off on -- when I say signed

4 I'm not saying suggesting it bears a signature but in terms of the names

5 over which the report was prepared, is that the -- your nickname and the

6 nickname of your Spanish colleague?

7 A. That's correct. This was done after our visit and after agreeing

8 upon the contents, it was issued. Signed and issued, actually.

9 Q. All right. Moving away from the Heliodrom, back in Mostar itself,

10 can you recall to the Chamber, please, around the 14th of June, 1993, were

11 you provided any sort of a note or communication about expulsions in West

12 Mostar, or excuse me, well, from West Mostar to East Mostar?

13 A. Talking about the 13th and the 14th, I remember very well that we

14 first got a note from someone at the west bank and a story translated by

15 our interpreter that a big number of Muslim people were expelled, and we

16 got a small note with the names of HVO soldiers who were -- who were

17 involved by that -- by expelling the people.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. And I know that in that discussion, we added an additional soldier

20 mentioned by our interpreter, after the man told the whole story.

21 Q. I want to direct your attention, please, to Exhibit 452.1?

22 A. That is actually the note we received. On the -- when I -- I

23 remember very well, on the 14th.

24 Q. Now, the writing that's on the right side of the page, not the

25 very bottom but the part on the top that says, for instance, "List," whose

Page 7361

1 handwriting is that?

2 A. It's mine. All is my handwriting except Attachment and the

3 letters under that.

4 Q. All right.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just so there is no mystery about that,

6 the part on the bottom where "Attachment" is written is just reception

7 notations made by the investigators.

8 Q. Now, looking at the typed names on the left side of the page and,

9 of course, unfortunately because of the nature apparently of the paper, it

10 is faded substantially but can you -- are you able to read, for instance,

11 the first three names listed on that note?

12 A. I think so. The first name is Martinovic Vinko-Stela. Second

13 name Ernest Takac. Third name Pehar Nino-Ziga, and two others and the

14 last one, number 6, was, as I told you, the name I added to the list

15 according to the information of the interpreter.

16 Q. If I can direct your attention now to the next exhibit, 456.3, is

17 this your report for the 14th of June 1993? Colonel, is that your report

18 from the 14th of June, 1993?

19 A. That's correct, sir.

20 Q. Now, directing your attention to the second page of your report,

21 several lines of text down from item numbered 5, can you tell the Chamber

22 any more than what's said here in terms of from what different sources did

23 you hear about this time of the expulsion of Muslim families from their

24 homes?

25 A. Well, the first indication was actually the note we just saw

Page 7362












12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts. Pages 7362 to 7373.













Page 7374

1 before. On top you saw the name Dum - Dum is a quarter in Mostar - and we

2 got also from SpaBat, the Spanish Battalion, sorry, the military

3 observers, the Red Cross, also the information that from the quarter Dum

4 and Vatikana, Muslim people, a lot of Muslim people, a big number of

5 Muslim people was expelled via Donja Mahala to the east bank. And

6 finally, I think on the 15th, we received a letter of Pasalic, very

7 detailed, with names that is -- that is related to this event.

8 Q. Before going to that next exhibit, under item 6, Assessment, you

9 make the statement, it's stated in your report, it says, "The joint

10 commission is not definitively finished but we do not think it will go on

11 without high level [political] pressure on both parts." Why did you think

12 that was the case?

13 A. Because at this very moment, the situation became more tense than

14 it was before so the whole situation in the confrontation line and on the

15 west bank was increasing. The expelling was increasing and it was

16 becoming more and more tense. So nobody of both parties were willing to

17 meet each other in these circumstances.

18 Q. Now, going on then, and I think now we are at a point where I hope

19 most of these exhibits will pretty much following in order, if you can go

20 to Exhibit 456.4, can you tell the Chamber what that document is.

21 A. This is the letter we received in copy from Pasalic with an added

22 list of 88 Muslim people who were expelled on the 13th of July -- sorry,

23 June, of course. And what was interesting also, fourth page with names of

24 HVO soldiers who were involved in this event.

25 Q. All right. Well, let's focus on that for a moment. The fourth

Page 7375

1 page of this exhibit which has been marked, just so there is a common

2 reference point, it's been marked on the bottom of the page in handwriting

3 14069304, this was part of a report that was passed to you from Colonel

4 Pasalic?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Now, can you explain the -- why the handwritten part is on the

7 bottom of the page? Was that on the original document or can you explain

8 those entries to the Chamber?

9 A. That is not on the original -- on the original page because the

10 original page, as you see, was a copy on thermal paper and very hard to

11 read. So what I did for my own memory, I rewrote the names of the five

12 soldiers.

13 Q. So the handwriting that we see on the bottom half of that page,

14 that's your handwriting?

15 A. That's my handwriting, sir.

16 Q. Did you notice, sir, and I'm sure everyone in the courtroom can

17 look at this, but at the time - I'm not asking you what you see today but

18 at the time - did you notice that the name, the five names were similar if

19 not the same as the names on the note that you had been provided in Mostar

20 a day or two before?

21 A. We realised that the names were the same or almost the same. It

22 looks to be the same, actually.

23 Q. Now, just as a point of reference, if I can take you to the second

24 page, the actual list of 88 names, if I direct your attention to item

25 number 33, do you see the name Amira Jakirovic? Item number 33?

Page 7376

1 A. Are you asking me?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. Oh, yes, I see, sir, yeah.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you now to go to Exhibit 458.1. Can you tell the

5 Chamber what that document is.

6 A. 458? That is again a protest letter by the commander Pasalic from

7 the 4th Armija corps, and the text is, I think, very clear.

8 Q. Would you say, can you say, sir, that based on what you saw at the

9 time on the ground, that not only is it clear but would you agree that it

10 is generally, again, an accurate statement of what you saw happening?

11 A. Well, I have to make clear that I didn't saw it myself but

12 according to all -- all our information, this is a letter what describes

13 what was going on. Because, as I told you, this kind of actions was done

14 at night and not -- and we were not attending that kind of operations, of

15 course, for security reasons.

16 Q. All right. Continuing on to the next document, 456 -- or excuse

17 me, 462, let me ask you before you -- you can turn there but let me ask

18 you before we talk about that exhibit, throughout this time, were you

19 attempting to make contact with a number of senior HVO officials to

20 discuss various issues with them?

21 A. Absolutely, sir, that's right.

22 Q. Did you ever attempt to arrange meetings with the HVO Minister of

23 Defence, Bruno Stojic?

24 A. We had a number of meetings with Mr. Stojic.

25 Q. Were there a number of times when you were trying to arrange

Page 7377

1 meetings with Mr. Stojic but you found you were not able to?

2 A. That's correct, so after some time, we followed what we called the

3 ambush tactic, showing up at his office without calling in advance.

4 Q. Now, looking at 462, do you recall around the 16th of June, 1993,

5 in fact meeting with Mr. Coric and Mr. Pusic which you mentioned before

6 which were mentioned in connection with your visit to the Heliodrom?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. And directing your attention to the bottom of the first page of

9 Exhibit P462 and continuing on over to the next page, is that at least a

10 brief description of the fact that you had met, and further on through

11 that document, that you in fact had that meeting with Mr. Coric and Mr.

12 Pusic that day?

13 A. That's correct, sir.

14 Q. During the course of your meetings -- and on that day, and I'm

15 sorry, I forgot to ask you before but I think everyone in the court room

16 can see, that on that day, on that same day, you also met with Mr. Stojic;

17 is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. Because, let me explain, the explanation of Mr.

19 Coric and Pusic were not satisfied for us so we went to see the Minister

20 of Defence to verify the answers of the other two, who were subordinated

21 to him, of course.

22 Q. Before we get to Mr. Stojic, the meeting with Mr. Stojic, and some

23 of your notes about that, do you recall anything more basically in your

24 separate meeting with Mr. Coric and Mr. Pusic, what their basically

25 response to your question was, your questions -- excuse me, what the

Page 7378

1 responses to your questions were about the conditions and what you had

2 seen at the Heliodrom and why these men were being held?

3 A. Well, of course, also their standpoint was that the prisoners were

4 under investigation and sometimes they used in general the explanation

5 that what were we talking about? It is war between east and west so don't

6 bother us with stupid questions.

7 Q. Now, going back to your notes under item number 5 on the second

8 page of your report, there is a short paragraph or entry that starts with

9 the words, "Mr. Stojic stated..." Can you relate more to the Chamber,

10 tell more to the Chamber, please, about Mr. Stojic's position or

11 statements about that as reflected in this part of your report. That is,

12 was there some reference by him to things that were taking place in other

13 parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. Yeah, on let's say the highest political level, most of the events

15 that occurred in the Mostar area was related to events anywhere in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina but then the other way around. That happened many

17 times. But you see here that he also gave the answer, talking about the

18 prisoners, that they were still not accused because they were still under

19 investigation.

20 Q. All right. Well, before moving on to the prisoners themselves,

21 staying on the other comment for a moment by Mr. Stojic, if I can, not

22 only on this occasion but can you tell the Chamber on other occasions was

23 there ever a linkage drawn by HVO officials between what was happening in

24 East Mostar and what was happening in other parts of Bosnia?

25 A. Most of the time that happened but on the highest political level.

Page 7379

1 Let's say, the subordinates were more involved in the local situation and

2 were referring to the other party within our area of operation.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. So let's say the level of abstraction was another one by the

5 subordinates.

6 Q. Now, before moving off this exhibit to the other parts of your

7 testimony, toward the bottom part of that page, did you report on your

8 discussions with Mr. Stojic, the Minister of Defence, about the killing of

9 Lieutenant Aguilar?

10 A. Absolutely, sir.

11 Q. Did he indicate to you at that time who controlled the snipers

12 that were in the blue bank building?

13 A. Well, he said -- he said for sure, he stated for sure that the

14 snipers in the blue bank building were under fully control of HVO. So the

15 only possibility in his version of that event was that, or the other side

16 did it, or someone, a criminal, from -- and that could be everywhere.

17 Q. Okay. I have just one final question because I won't go into it

18 because again the document primarily speaks for itself, but the reference

19 in your report where it says, in the bottom, toward the bottom again of

20 the second page, only criminal -- in terms of expelling Muslim families,

21 "Only criminals are involved in that and no HVO-organised ethnic

22 cleansing takes place in Mostar." Do you record that based on a statement

23 made by Mr. Stojic?

24 A. That's correct, sir.

25 Q. Let me ask you in general, Colonel, did you find, when you would

Page 7380

1 meet with the HVO officials on a number of occasions, did you find their

2 explanations and the answers they gave to you to your questions, to be

3 satisfactory, in your view?

4 A. Most of the time, it wasn't, sir, but we had to accept it because

5 it was the only possibility to have all the time access to these

6 officials.

7 Q. Meaning -- maybe you can expand on that, sir; meaning what? What

8 do you think would have happened if you confronted them and said you did

9 not accept the explanations given?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

11 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object on the grounds

12 that calls for speculation.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, would you please skip this question.

14 It is kind of speculation.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's not based upon what they thought,

16 it's based on what this witness's experience was and why he did not press

17 them -- why he did not press them -- for more specific or different

18 answers. He certainly knows the reason why he did not.

19 JUDGE LIU: Witness, you may answer this question but that should

20 be entirely within your own knowledge.

21 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Your Honour.

22 Well, our way of working was an impartial one, of course. That

23 means that from both sides or anyone who was involved in the conflict, we

24 only note their answers. And sometimes it was unsatisfactory to us but by

25 the knowledge of other facts, for instance, it was a part of the job to

Page 7381

1 accept that and make, let's say, a note in a clinical way, to report

2 exactly what was stated by the officials.


4 Q. All right. We can move on. Going to Exhibit P475, and I think,

5 again, that's just -- is that just typical of the reports you were making

6 during this time on, and this particular in particular, for the 21st of

7 June 1993, and I think, in the interests of time, we will let the document

8 speak for itself.

9 A. That's correct, sir.

10 Q. Unless there is anything that you see there in your report that

11 you would like to expand on.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

13 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I object because I don't

14 believe that was a question.

15 MR. SCOTT: I'll move on, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: No it's not.

17 MR. SCOTT: It's not a question, Your Honour, I was trying to

18 afford the witness an opportunity, but you're right, I will move on.

19 Q. Moving on, sir, did there come a time in the latter part of June

20 that you tried to enter Mostar, into East Mostar but you were prevented

21 from doing so?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Do you recall what happened on that occasion, why you were denied

24 access and what you did to try to obtain entrance into East Mostar?

25 A. Well, always when there were fightings downtown or in the area, we

Page 7382

1 were stopped at checkpoints and they refused us access to the city for our

2 own security.

3 Q. And who is the "they" who denied you access?

4 A. When I'm talking about the road from Siroki Brijeg to Mostar, we

5 always were dealing with HVO-controlled checkpoints.

6 Q. Did there come a time in the latter part of June that you received

7 a note that was given to you by someone in Mostar?

8 A. Many times, actually.

9 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you to look at Exhibit 476.2

10 specifically.

11 A. That's one of the notes we received.

12 Q. Now, directing your attention and everyone in the courtroom's

13 attention to actually the third page, is it correct, sir, that the note

14 that was originally handed to you would have been, of course, in the

15 native language?

16 A. That's correct, because Exhibit 476.2 is the translation by our

17 interpreter of the note in the local language.

18 Q. Can you recall anything more and tell the Chamber how this note

19 came to be communicated to you?

20 A. We were driving by car on the west bank and were stopped by

21 someone who gave us -- sorry, by someone who gave us this note and

22 explained what happened. After our interpreter read the note and made the

23 translation, we went to the place mentioned in the note.

24 Q. What did you find there?

25 A. We found there actually soldiers who were pointing papers on

Page 7383

1 trees, mentioning the death of the mentioned family members.

2 Q. All right. Looking at the transcript just now, there may have

3 been, again, a language -- you said it was translated as "pointing papers

4 on trees," if you may be able to see that in front of you, line 22. I'm

5 not sure if you meant to say pointing papers on trees or what --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, could you please slow down for the

7 interpretation.

8 MR. SCOTT: My apology. I was also away from the microphone.

9 Q. Just trying to correct, possibly correct the transcript, sir. Did

10 you say that they -- the soldiers were pointing papers on trees?

11 A. Pinning, let's say pinning. I missed the English expression for

12 announcements of dead people.

13 Q. Have you heard the term "obituary"?

14 A. Yes, that's what I mean.

15 Q. Were you or your translator, interpreter, able to actually see one

16 of these obituaries that was being put on trees in the West Mostar area?

17 A. Yeah, because she read it and told us that it fits with the names

18 of the family on the note we received before.

19 Q. And again, just for absolute clarity's sake, when you say you saw

20 soldiers putting these notices on trees, soldiers of which army or

21 organisation?

22 A. Well, definitely HVO soldiers, because when I'm talking about

23 soldiers, I'm talking of a man in uniform.

24 Q. Did you try to find this burned house or this house that was

25 referenced in the note?

Page 7384

1 A. We tried but we didn't find it.

2 Q. All right. Moving on then, I think -- well, looking at your

3 report which is Exhibit P477, and directing your attention particularly to

4 the text starting on the bottom of the second page and continuing to the

5 third page, in fact does your report for the 25th of June 1993, record the

6 event that you've just told us about?

7 A. That's correct, sir.

8 Q. In that, before moving off that report, under item number 6,

9 Assessment, the second entry under that number, it says, "We have seen

10 again that the HVO do not want any joint commission trying to solve the

11 problems of Mostar." What did you base that comment on?

12 A. That's based on the request we several times made or actually

13 repeated all the time to come together and start up again the meeting with

14 both the parties.

15 Q. Going to Exhibit 480, I apologise, because of the copying, a lot

16 of the exhibit number has been cut off the bottom of the page, for which I

17 again apologise, but it's the next document in the binder, your report

18 dated the 27th of June, 1993. And directing your attention to the part of

19 your report which you indicated earlier was a standard structure of your

20 reports, item number 3, Meetings, does that indicate that you met that day

21 with someone named Mr. Andabak, Ivan?

22 A. That's correct, sir.

23 Q. Can you tell, looking over to the second page, do you recall --

24 can you tell the Chamber how it was that the subject of Mr. Demirovic came

25 up with Mr. Andabak that day?

Page 7385

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I believe the witness said

3 Andabak, B-A-K, and the transcript on line 19 is indicating

4 A-N-D-A-B-A-K. I believe the witness in English said he met with Mr.

5 Andavak.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, will you please ask some questions to

7 clear it up.

8 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, of course.

9 Q. Sir, the person you saw and met with on the 27th of June, 1993,

10 going back to in the front of the binder, very front of the binder,

11 Exhibit P36.1, do you recall that, very first, the very, very first

12 document, picture, maybe it --

13 A. Right.

14 Q. Is the person that you marked there as person number 2 the same

15 person that you met with on the 27th of June?

16 A. That's correct, sir.

17 Q. Did you sometimes see references to the same individual sometimes

18 referenced or spoken in a way that someone might interpret Andavak and

19 other times interpreted as Andabak?

20 A. That's correct, sir. I mentioned earlier this morning that the

21 Spanish Battalion is talking about Andavak but in my belief that is the

22 same man and that is a misunderstanding.

23 Q. All right. Now, going back to my question, do you recall how it

24 was, and I'm only referring to what's on the face of your report, Mr.

25 Andabak on that occasion raised an issue concerning Mr. Demirovic?

Page 7386

1 A. Yeah, what happened at that time that Mr. Demirovic was a

2 political leader on the east side and I think that rumour came to us, as

3 it's written here, to bring Mr. Demirovic to discredit.

4 Q. Were you ever able to confirm that this information as reported by

5 Mr. Andabak was in fact true?

6 A. Of course we tried because every day, going to the west bank,

7 meant in our situation also verifying everything we heard on the east

8 bank, so we tried to verify this message on the east side, without any --

9 without any success, because at that moment, nobody knew exactly where Mr.

10 Demirovic was.

11 Q. Were you ever able to learn that in fact at this very time he was

12 being held by the HVO?

13 A. That's correct, that was what we heard but we didn't know actually

14 where and we couldn't find out at that moment.

15 Q. Going to Exhibit 483, it should be the next one. Now, again, is

16 this your report for the 28th of June, 1993?

17 A. That's correct, sir.

18 Q. Directing your attention to the middle of the second page, did you

19 have another occasion on that day to have dealings with Mr. -- I'll

20 simply, to avoid any dispute, I'll simply refer to it as the way it's

21 written here, Andavak. Did you have any dealings with Mr. Andavak on the

22 28th of June, 1993?

23 A. It says here that we met him but I tried to recall the situation

24 and I remember that we met him and that he was asking for a specific

25 person held on the east bank, to release him or to send him back to the

Page 7387

1 west bank.

2 Q. All right. And is the response from the ABIH side, as indicated

3 here, they didn't want to handle that on an isolated basis but were still

4 trying to set up a more general?

5 A. Exactly. As you can read, Mr. Humo, the spokesman to us, rejected

6 the proposal and said that's a thing for the joint commission, knowing

7 that we were not able to bring them together at that moment. Because one

8 of the points in the joint commission what was under discussion was

9 transporting people from the west bank -- sorry, from the east bank to the

10 west bank, escorted by UNPROFOR approved by both sides.

11 Q. There is a reference down lower on that second page again to this

12 topic of Mr. Demirovic and one of the other -- indicates that one of the

13 other Bosniak or Muslim officials had asked for a written, some sort of an

14 official note, it says, from the HVO concerning Mr. Demirovic. Did you

15 ever ask any HVO officials for an official explanation where Mr. Demirovic

16 was?

17 A. We asked but we never got, because as I told you before, nobody

18 knew exactly what happened with him.

19 Q. Turning to Exhibit 484, your report for the 29th of June, the next

20 day, 1993, and was one of the persons you met with that day, as indicated

21 again at number 3 and then with a discussion on the following page, again

22 this Mr. Puljic?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, whether your interpreter was

25 threatened that day in connection with that meeting?

Page 7388

1 A. Yeah, I remember that our interpreter was recognised by one of the

2 soldiers who was guarding the headquarters of HVO and was threatening her

3 so she became very afraid. It happened not only this time but it happened

4 several times.

5 Q. When you went in then, proceeded then on into your meeting with

6 Mr. Puljic that day, did you raise with him, did you complain to him that

7 his soldiers had threatened your interpreter?

8 A. Of course it was the first point on our agenda, because it was

9 very important to have our interpreter in good condition for our work.

10 Q. What was his response to your complaint?

11 A. Well, his response was that sometimes these kind of things happen,

12 according to a lack of discipline and they were working on that within

13 their own forces.

14 Q. Did he indicate to you, by the way, that any disciplinary action

15 would be taken towards his soldiers for what had been done towards the

16 interpreter?

17 A. I don't know, sir.

18 Q. Where did this meeting take place?

19 A. At the HQ of the HVO.

20 MR. SCOTT: Forgive me, Mr. President, I'm just trying to look at

21 my notes and again trying to proceed a bit more quickly because of the

22 time.

23 Q. Well, on the second page, below the part where you refer to the

24 incident with your interpreter, also talks about again the proposal of

25 re-establishing the joint commission and you indicate again that that was

Page 7389

1 rejected. He said he had been ordered by his superiors not to deal with

2 only local affairs. My question to you is, did he identify to you who

3 these superiors were who told him not to deal with local affairs?

4 A. No, he didn't.

5 Q. I want to direct your attention to the last page of that report,

6 please, under item number 6, you make a reference there, an assessment, if

7 you will, of your meeting with Mr. Puljic, and you said, We think he has

8 told us the truth when talking about -- and I'm just -- certain things.

9 Now, later in that report, there is references specifically to Tuta,

10 Andabak, and Mr. Juka. I want you to make clear to the Chamber, was that

11 based on what Mr. Puljic said or what was that assessment based upon, the

12 parts that refer to Mr. Tuta Mr. Andabak, and Mr. Juka by name?

13 A. That was, of course, based on what he said and, additionally, with

14 our comment.

15 Q. Do you recall what you based that assessment on at that time, in

16 addition to whatever Mr. Puljic may have told you?

17 A. Our knowledge about organisation and situation in that particular

18 area. And you have to understand that it was for internal use, of course.

19 Q. This report -- like other reports, this report was made to RC

20 Zenica; is that correct?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. And it only went out, as you explained earlier, if you and your

23 colleague, Amigo Jesus, if I can simply refer to him as that, agreed on it

24 and only if your commanding officer, if you will, the head of CC Mostar

25 also agreed with it; is that correct?

Page 7390

1 A. Absolutely.

2 Q. The statement that you make on the third page of your report

3 indicate at that time your best assessment of the roles of Mr. Tuta, Mr.

4 Andavak, and Mr. Juka in the affairs in the Mostar region at that time?

5 A. That's correct, sir.

6 Q. Directing your attention to the next exhibit, paragraph -- excuse

7 me, P488, your report for the 30th of June, 1993, did you learn around

8 this time, about the 30th of June, 1993, there was an ABIH attack on

9 certain HVO facilities on the north side of Mostar?

10 A. That is correct, sir. We learned that when we visit in the

11 morning the HVO hospital on the west bank. Mr. Sandric told us about what

12 happened and the number of wounded HVO soldiers who were brought in that

13 night, or early in the morning.

14 Q. All right. Now, talk about several things in your report here but

15 before we -- I won't go into those in any detail. I don't think.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, if I could just have a moment?

17 Q. Well, only one thing on that part of the document, under item

18 number 5, Other Subjects, you talk about a meeting in Siroki Brijeg with

19 certain people to arrange the movement of certain refugees from Bosnia to

20 Germany. Do you recall whether that in fact ever took place? I'm sorry,

21 not the meeting but were refugees moved out of the Siroki Brijeg area in

22 that way?

23 A. I don't recall that so well at this moment, sir.

24 Q. Very well.

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we are a tad before 1.00 but I'm about

Page 7391

1 to begin a topic that I'm sure I can't finish in the next two or three

2 minutes, so with your permission, I'd like to have an early break.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Before that, I would like to ask Mr. Seric, are you

6 going to cross-examine this witness this afternoon or do you prefer to do

7 it tomorrow, after Mr. Meek?

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in view of the fact

9 that several points have been raised more than I thought, and that may

10 appear on the basis of the direct examination of the witness, I need to

11 consult with my client regarding what I consider and assume will be of

12 common interest for the whole Defence team, so I too would prefer to

13 cross-examine tomorrow, after my colleagues.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Scott, do you have another witness

15 ready for the afternoon if we finish with this witness earlier?

16 MR. SCOTT: I think it would be possible, Your Honour. I think --

17 I do anticipate finishing in the afternoon session, although, frankly, I'm

18 not sure how much earlier than 4.00, but the answer to the Court's

19 question is yes, there would be someone else if we get to that point.

20 JUDGE LIU: So we might have another witness this afternoon.

21 MR. SCOTT: That's correct, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: And we'll have the Defence counsel to cross-examine

23 this witness tomorrow morning.

24 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, and if I might be allowed again,

25 with possible regard to the witness's schedule, that he must return on

Page 7392

1 Wednesday, but if they have a full day, I would think that would be

2 sufficient.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: So we will resume at 2.30.

6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.59 p.m.




















Page 7393

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, please continue.


4 Q. Colonel, we were looking at Exhibit 488 before the lunch recess.

5 A. Right.

6 Q. And we were talking about the 30th of June 1993. Later that

7 afternoon, did you go to visit your interpreter in West Mostar?

8 A. After the visit to the HVO hospital, we went to her place, yeah.

9 Q. And can you tell the Chamber, please, did anything happen that

10 afternoon as you were at her home or apartment?

11 A. Yeah, that particular afternoon, we were invited to drink some

12 coffee at her place and parked our car outside. A strict rule is that the

13 driver stays in the car for security reasons and communications, and

14 during our visit, there was a lot of shouting outside, our interpreter

15 went to the window and she saw a bunch of soldiers, uniformed, coming into

16 that particular area, and she said to us immediately, "Leave the apartment

17 and go to your car and go back, because there is something going on."

18 Q. And what did you do?

19 A. Well, we saw that too through the window, went downstairs, and

20 then met there a number of soldiers already surrounding our car.

21 Q. These were soldiers, again, with what army or organisation?

22 A. HVO uniforms.

23 Q. All right.

24 A. And then --

25 Q. How were they acting at that time?

Page 7394

1 A. Well, they were aggressive, tense, excited, and on certain

2 moments, Mr. Andabak showed up also in uniform, even more excited, I think

3 because he didn't expect us there.

4 Q. Can you tell the Chamber in that regard, based on what you

5 observed in terms of Mr. Andabak's reaction, what was his reaction when he

6 saw you there?

7 A. He was definitely very surprised and angry to see us there, and he

8 start to discuss with us our presence, more or less, and the bottom line

9 was that we had to move directly back to Siroki Brijeg and leave the town

10 as soon as possible.

11 Q. And looking at, on Exhibit 488, the third page of that exhibit,

12 about the middle of the page, although it's only discussed briefly, is

13 that about this incident?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Did you learn soon after the 30th of June anything that had

16 happened in that part of West Mostar where you had encountered Mr. Andabak

17 that day?

18 A. Yeah, the only message we got later on was that the soldiers

19 entered the buildings there, the apartment buildings, and visited some

20 families by asking for Muslim male and left after a negative answer.

21 Q. Around this time, was your access to Mostar cut off, terminated?

22 A. Well, from that moment, we were stopped all the time at the

23 checkpoint. That could be also the reason that Mr. Andabak was very

24 surprised because, first, on the 30th [realtime transcript read in error

25 13th] of June, we were stopped and after complaining by the local police

Page 7395

1 in Siroki Brijeg, we got the permission to go ahead to Mostar downtown, so

2 in my opinion we were not -- we were not supposed to be at Mostar at that

3 time.

4 Q. All right. And just looking at the transcript, sir, line 25, was

5 this on the 30th of June or it's been interpreted as the 13th of June.

6 A. No. Three zero.

7 Q. All right. Very well. Do you recall approximately, not by the

8 exact number of days, but how long after that were you and other

9 international monitors kept out of Mostar before you could go back into

10 Mostar again?

11 A. I don't know exactly because I have to count then the days but

12 approximately four weeks, 30 days, I think.

13 Q. Again, perhaps it seems clear but let me -- who was it, to your

14 understanding, that blocked you from going into Mostar during that 30 day

15 period?

16 A. Always the first or at least the second checkpoint on the way

17 between Siroki Brijeg and West Mostar; HVO-controlled checkpoints.

18 Q. Now, around this time, did you also receive information about

19 Bosniak or Muslim people who were refugees at a camp in Capljina?

20 A. Yeah, of course our team in Medjugorje, so M3, were still doing

21 their job over there, they were not restricted in movement, so we had

22 information from just around the area of Mostar city.

23 Q. All right. Were you during this time, to the best of your

24 ability, trying to raise with various HVO officials the limitations and

25 restrictions on the freedom of movement that was being imposed on the

Page 7396

1 international organisations?

2 A. Absolutely. We tried that every day, even by asking our officials

3 in Zagreb to stress the HVO officials to let us enter Mostar to monitor

4 the situation, but without any success.

5 Q. Were you also making efforts to contact the HVO officials in

6 Mostar during this time on the same question, such as Bruno Stojic, for

7 example?

8 A. That's correct, but the only possibility we had actually was

9 asking his secretary, by phone, to arrange a meeting and that was -- let's

10 say the first days, denied.

11 Q. I'll ask you to go, please, next to Exhibit 497. And this is your

12 report for the 5th of July 1993 and, as indicated here, did you in fact

13 meet with Bruno Stojic on that evening?

14 A. That's correct, in Siroki Brijeg.

15 Q. Had you learned around this time, in fact, the total numbers of

16 people, did you get any reports about the numbers of people who had been

17 evicted or arrested around Mostar? And let me direct your attention to,

18 it would be the third page of your report, item number 4, and I'm sorry,

19 I'd like to bring that to your attention before going back to your meeting

20 with Mr. Stojic.

21 A. Well, according to -- you mean under humanitarian activity?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yeah. It was very hard to get an exact number of people who were

24 arrested or transported or expelled at that time. And that's what this

25 message says. "Reliable source," that was our interpreter at that time,

Page 7397

1 but "unconfirmed" means only by her, mentioned, and it was impossible for

2 us to confirm it actually from other sources at that time.

3 Q. During the subsequent weeks, were you able to obtain any other

4 information that led you to believe whether that information was

5 approximately accurate in terms of the number of people arrested or

6 families evicted?

7 A. Well, only by appointment we had with officials outside Mostar.

8 For instance, the mayor, Mr. Tadic, who was dealing with refugees and

9 displaced persons.

10 Q. All right.

11 A. And Mr. Stojic, of course.

12 Q. Just so the record is clear again, when you say "the mayor," who

13 are you talking about?

14 A. His name was Ivo -- I'm talking about the mayor of Siroki Brijeg.

15 Q. Okay. We may see --

16 A. I can't recall his name immediately but you will find it in the

17 report, anyway.

18 Q. All right. Now, going back to a couple of things - I'm sorry I

19 took us a bit out of order - but with that information in hand, I asked

20 you earlier were you trying to reach various officials, including Mr.

21 Stojic, to address these matters?

22 A. That's correct, by phone, after the 1st of July.

23 Q. Were you able to finally meet with him, on approximately the 5th

24 of July, in Siroki Brijeg?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7398

1 Q. And I think without spending too much time on it, is your

2 discussions, your notes of your report of your meeting with Mr. Stojic

3 starting, reflected, starting on the bottom of the first page of your

4 report and continuing over even into the third page, approximately?

5 A. That's correct, sir, and in my statement made in the beginning of

6 August, it's a little bit more extended by my personal notes.

7 Q. All right. When you met with Bruno Stojic in Siroki Brijeg, did

8 you see anyone else in Siroki Brijeg on that same time?

9 A. At the same time, we saw Mr. Tuta very close to the place we were

10 discussing on the terrace our questions.

11 Q. When you say "the terrace," were you meeting with Mr. Stojic on a

12 terrace of a cafe or something such as that?

13 A. Outside, yeah, correct.

14 Q. Approximately how far away was Mr. Tuta when you saw him?

15 A. Well, that's hard to recall but let's say we -- it wasn't such a

16 distance that we easily recognised him, so maybe ten -- within 25 metres

17 or 30 metres.

18 Q. Okay. Going on, please, to Exhibit 498, your report for the 6th

19 of July, 1993, and perhaps this may assist you, you testified a moment ago

20 about meeting with the mayor of Siroki Brijeg and also a man you called

21 Tadic.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. Is that reflected in your report of the 6th of July?

24 A. Yeah, here you'll find the name of the mayor, Mr. Ivo Guljic.

25 Q. A meeting with Mr. Tadic which is recounted in your report

Page 7399

1 starting on the second page of your report, around item B, did Mr. Tadic

2 state to you any view as to what was the problem for the -- excuse me,

3 what was the reason for the conflict in Mostar?

4 A. Yeah, you can read it in this message. He blamed, actually, the

5 Muslims for the situation in Mostar.

6 Q. Going on to Exhibit 516, is this your report for the 10th of July,

7 1993?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And directing your attention to the bottom of that page, the first

10 page, and continuing over to the second page, were you around this time

11 able to get some additional information through the Spanish Battalion as

12 to what was happening in Mostar at that time?

13 A. Well, we did, but also the Spanish Battalion was not able to enter

14 Mostar, so the information from the Spanish Battalion came by visiting the

15 Spanish Battalion in Medjugorje, actually.

16 Q. Did -- there is a reference on the bottom of the first page to

17 Mr. Boban. It says Mr. Boban said that UNPROFOR, UNMOs and ECMM will not

18 be able to enter Mostar at least for one month. Now, was the other

19 information that starts at the top of the next page about the number of

20 prisoners, was any of that information coming from Mr. Boban, as far as

21 you know?

22 A. Yeah, and that came via the commander of SpaBat, so I don't recall

23 it exactly if he had a meeting with Mr. Boban, but it was told by the

24 commander, by Colonel Morales, and this is what he told us. We didn't

25 have a meeting with Mr. Boban but this information came by the Spanish

Page 7400

1 Battalion.

2 Q. And just for clarification, if you look up in item number 5,

3 People Met, you mentioned Colonel Morales, SpaBat commander; is

4 that correct?

5 A. That's right.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Poriouvaev has reminded me, Your Honour, looking

7 at the transcript in lines 3, Morales would be M-O-R-A-L-E-S.

8 Q. All right. In coming toward the final parts of your testimony, at

9 least on direct examination, Colonel, let me turn to a different topic.

10 During your time in the Mostar region, did you come across any information

11 or did you see for yourself the presence of members or units of the army

12 of the Republic of Croatia?

13 A. Well, we heard of that actually in this period, so let's say at

14 the end of June, sometimes we saw HV soldiers, uniformed soldiers.

15 Q. And did there come a time while you were still in Bosnia -- was it

16 infrequent to see these soldiers or did it get to the point where you saw

17 them on a more regular basis?

18 A. In the first period that I joined the team, I didn't see them,

19 only we had that kind of information and then I'm talking about Bosnia

20 Croatia, the whole area, but as I said, we saw sometimes individuals or

21 let's say a few together, in HV uniforms.

22 Q. Do you recall any particular location in West Mostar where you

23 came to see --

24 A. Yeah, that's correct, we were -- during our visit in June,

25 sometimes lunching in a pizzeria called Karla and that's one of the places

Page 7401

1 where we met some of these guys. I have to correct: We saw them. We

2 didn't speak to them. We did had a meeting with them, okay?

3 Q. Yes, all right.

4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, in page 75, line 2, I believe the

5 witness's testimony was, "We did not have a meeting," not that we did have

6 a meeting, if I may be allowed to correct that.

7 Q. Is that correct, Colonel?

8 A. We did not had a meeting, right.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MR. SCOTT: Forgive me, Mr. President, I was again trying to

11 abbreviate the examination and I think that has brought us pretty much to

12 the end.

13 Q. Colonel, when did you leave Siroki Brijeg?

14 A. I think I leave Siroki Brijeg at the 12th of August.

15 MR. SCOTT: If I could just have a moment?

16 Colonel, we thank you for your testimony. I have no further

17 questions, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Colonel. I'm afraid we have to call you

19 back tomorrow morning. So, as I did with other witnesses, I have to

20 remind you that you are still under the oath, so during your stay in The

21 Hague, do not talk to anybody about your testimony today and do not let

22 anybody talk to you about it.

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: The usher will show you out of the room.

25 THE WITNESS: May I make one remark, let's say, in -- I found out

Page 7402

1 this morning in my testimony that I said something wrong. Can I rectify

2 that? Referring to the question of Mr. Scott about a direct hit of our

3 armoured car.


5 THE WITNESS: I mentioned that -- we were talking, I think, about

6 the 4th of June. We were hit on the 4th of June, actually in the centre

7 on the track where also the Spanish captain was hit in his APC. Then we

8 were hit when we were driving from the west bank to the east bank directly

9 by sniper fire.

10 And second time, it happened on the 26th of June and that was on

11 our way from Medjugorje to Mostar. So I mixed that up. Actually, early

12 June it was in the centre of Mostar at the track to Tito bridge. Thank

13 you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, do you have any questions to follow

15 up?

16 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour. I thank the witness for the

17 clarification.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may leave the room now.

19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Par?

22 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] With your permission, I should like to

23 take advantage of this break before the next witness comes to carry out an

24 obligation I owe the Court left over from last year, actually.

25 On the 10th of December, during the examination of Witness YY, I

Page 7403

1 showed a photocopy of a document of a military booklet of Vinko

2 Martinovic, claiming that, according to that military booklet, Vinko

3 Martinovic was a regular soldier, and I tendered a photocopy to -- into

4 evidence as B2-23. Then the question of the authenticity of this booklet

5 was raised and I promised to get hold of it. I have it in my possession

6 now and I should like to show it to Your Honours. I have already shown my

7 learned friends from the Prosecution this original document. So perhaps

8 Your Honours would like to examine it, and I would again like to tender it

9 into evidence as D2/23, if Your Honours accept.

10 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, Your Honour. The witness was my witness. My

12 learned colleague is right. I saw this document and I have no objections

13 to it at this stage.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think this document will be

15 admitted into the evidence. And the Registrar will give it a proper

16 number. Yes.

17 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, how about your next witness?

19 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Poriouvaev will be handling the next witness, Your

20 Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, my next witness will be Halil

23 Ajanic. He did not request any protective measures. He wants to give his

24 testimony in the open session without any face distortion or pseudonym.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You might brief us with the relevance of

Page 7404

1 his testimony to the indictment.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. The witness Ajanic Halil will

3 testify mostly to the following points: Background, paragraph 11,

4 Superior Authority, paragraph 17; General Allegations, paragraph 20; count

5 1, paragraphs 26 through 28, 30, 33, 34A, B, counts 2 through 5,

6 paragraphs 35 through 37, 40, 44; counts 13 through 17, paragraphs 51, 52.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Usher, would you please

8 bring the witness in.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

13 accordance with the paper the un -- the usher is showing to you.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr Prosecutor.

20 Examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ajanic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. Mr. Ajanic, you were born in 1952 in Mostar, is it correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In 1993, you lived in Mostar, correct?

Page 7405

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You are a Bosniak by nationality and your religion is Muslim; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. Mr. Ajanic, what happened to you on the 13th -- 30th of June,

6 sorry, 1993?

7 A. They took us into detention, they rounded us up.

8 Q. And who do you mean by "they"?

9 A. HVO soldiers.

10 Q. Could you expand a little bit more on that, how it happened?

11 Where were you at that time?

12 A. In my house, in the house.

13 Q. Yes. I understand you but how did they carry out that operation?

14 A. They went from one apartment to another, rounded people up.

15 However, my three big sons were in the house so I went out first to avoid

16 my sons being taken in. We went in front of the building, they wanted our

17 IDs, checked our IDs, and they took us by bus to a place called Varda.

18 Some were taken there by trucks and others on foot to the gate of the

19 Heliodrom, in front of the building.

20 Q. How many buses were there in the area used for transporting

21 prisoners?

22 A. I can't say exactly. I think two or three.

23 Q. How many people, in your estimation, were transferred along with

24 you?

25 A. Between 400 and 500.

Page 7406

1 Q. Did you know any of the HVO soldiers who took part in rounding up

2 Muslims on that day?

3 A. I knew Dujmo, Dujmo, then I also knew someone from Donja Mahala --

4 let me try to remember, I apologize -- Blazevic, whom I had known before

5 the war. In fact, I knew both of them before the war.

6 Q. Do you know the first name of Blazevic?

7 A. Romeo, they called him Romeo but I don't know what his real name

8 was.

9 Q. Do you know to which unit those two soldiers belonged, unit or

10 units?

11 A. I don't know, I'm afraid.

12 Q. All right. Did the HVO soldiers who took part in the rounding up

13 Muslims explain to you why you Muslims were supposed to leave your houses

14 and go somewhere?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you see HVO soldiers enter the buildings, looking for Muslims?

17 A. I did.

18 Q. Did they allow you to take with you essential belongings?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So you were taken to Heliodrom. Did they interrogate you on the

21 arrival to Heliodrom?

22 A. No. They just entered us in a book and they took away everything

23 they found on us.

24 Q. Did they allow you to wear trousers, belts, and shoelaces?

25 A. No, no.

Page 7407

1 Q. Mr. Ajanic, had you ever been in Heliodrom before? I mean before

2 the war.

3 A. Yes. I drove gravel there for the construction of Dujmovic

4 [phoen] while the former Yugoslav army was stationed there.

5 Q. In what building of Heliodrom were you detained?

6 A. First to the school and then to the prison.

7 Q. How many prisoners were kept along with you in the school

8 building?

9 A. More than a thousand.

10 Q. Did they keep you long in the school building before transferring

11 to the central prison building?

12 A. For about -- they first took me to Rudnik as a worker, and when I

13 came back, they transferred us, we all went out into the compound. I was

14 the one but last. There were 152.

15 Q. In which part of the central prison were you kept?

16 A. In the prison with bars, where the bars are, on the second floor;

17 and up in the attic were the women.

18 Q. Did you see them?

19 A. The women? I did. I had to clean the steps every day, starting

20 from the top floor where the women were, right down to the isolation cells

21 and where we had meals.

22 Q. And who was kept in the isolation cells?

23 A. Prisoners also.

24 Q. Did you see any other prisoners in Heliodrom? I mean not being

25 Muslims.

Page 7408

1 A. I did. In the lower part of the building, down there, there were

2 people who refused to carry out orders, and there was a Croat who had

3 killed his father-in-law. His name was Drago Klemo. He would give me

4 cigarettes and coffee.

5 Q. Did you know any other prisoners, I mean from the HVO?

6 A. Yes. I also knew someone called Splico, who was an addict, and

7 Mujo Pupak's wife, when I left the Heliodrom, sent him to my house and he

8 mistreated us.

9 Q. Did you see any military units in the area of Heliodrom? I mean

10 in the territory of Heliodrom.

11 A. Yes, sir. They had five or six rooms that I cleaned with somebody

12 I took with me to help me.

13 Q. Do you remember the names of those units?

14 A. Well, I can't answer that. I'd rather not answer that.

15 Q. You don't remember or you don't want?

16 A. To be quite honest, I'm a bit nervous and I just can't remember.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you. Could you inform, briefly, the Trial Chamber

18 about the conditions of detention at Heliodrom.

19 A. For me, they were good, but for others, they were very bad.

20 Because I had the slightly better food than the rest because I cleaned the

21 premises, the staircase, and the toilets.

22 Q. And what kind of food did the rest of the prisoners have?

23 A. Nothing really to speak of.

24 Q. Did you have enough water?

25 A. Yes. We had plenty of water. We weren't short of water. We even

Page 7409

1 bathed in water.

2 Q. Did you have blankets?

3 A. Not for a time, until a humanitarian organisation arrived and then

4 they distributed two blankets each.

5 Q. Were you taken to perform some sort of job outside of Heliodrom?

6 A. Oh, yes, all over the place.

7 Q. Do you remember the names of places you were taken to to perform

8 some job?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Please inform the Trial Chamber.

11 A. Buna, Hortije airport, a place we call Visnje, the Hepok estate,

12 Vrdi, for Stela. Over there - what was its name - the barracks at -- the

13 Ero Hotel.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, to you,

16 but again I see that the interpretation is not good, especially the

17 places that have been recorded in the transcript, row 515, it's quite

18 wrong here in the transcript. So perhaps the Prosecutor could ask the

19 witness again for him to explain, because he said Visnje, for instance.

20 Visnje is sour cherry, it's a fruit. And Vrdi, there's a place called

21 Vrdi.

22 THE WITNESS: That's what I said, Vrdi.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Mr. Witness, it's not your fault,

24 it's an error in the transcript, that's why I'm making these comments. I

25 do apologise, Your Honour, I was hoping to be of assistance. Mr. Meek

Page 7410

1 will be the one to make the substantive objections.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think the interpretation is quite

3 good but the name is very difficult to be recorded correctly. You should

4 not blame the interpretations.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no. That was not my intention

6 but the meaning was changed. Maybe there was a misunderstanding. When

7 the witness says a place we called Visnje, Visnje is cherry. Then the

8 witness explained but this did not -- was not included in the transcript.

9 I was just trying to be of assistance, I'm not trying to criticise the

10 interpreters.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please make it clear

12 for us.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I will try.

14 Q. Just to resolve this problem, I would ask Mr. Ajanic just to

15 repeat the names of places you performed job, but slowly, please.

16 A. Buna, the airport, Hortije, we call it Visnje, which is a fruit

17 orchard, and that's where we dug trenches. Near the Ero Hotel, Vrdi, and

18 at Stela's.

19 Q. When you are talking about Stela's location, which part of Mostar

20 do you mean?

21 A. I'm referring to the Croatian part.

22 Q. Perhaps you remember the name --

23 A. The Kalemova Street.

24 Q. What kind of job did you perform?

25 A. I would clean the rooms.

Page 7411

1 Q. And what about the rest of the prisoners? What kind of job did

2 they perform?

3 A. They came for us, two Strumfs and a taxi driver. He was a taxi

4 driver before the war, I can't remember his name now. They picked up 25

5 of us, as far as I can recollect. However...

6 Q. Mr. Ajanic, just I would ask you to stop at this point. Perhaps

7 you have not understood me. And first my remark to the transcript. Just

8 paragraph 17, the name of the street Kalemova is missing. Mr. Ajanic told

9 us that it was Kalemova Street where he worked for Stela.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Kallemova, K-A-L-L-E-M-O-V-A.

12 A. K-A-L-E-M-O-V-A. Maybe I'm having some problems because I have

13 some teeth missing. Yes.

14 Q. Mr. Ajanic, just to return to our previous question, what kind of

15 job did prisoners perform, for example, in Buna airport and other places

16 just mentioned by yourself?

17 A. I worked with other prisoners there, not with these.

18 Q. I'm just asking you about other prisoners. I do not ask you about

19 some definite prisoners.

20 A. We were digging and carrying sandbags. We were digging trenches

21 and carrying sacks mostly.

22 Q. Did you carry out your job when there was shooting in the area?

23 A. Yes. They chased us into the crossfire, then our men realised

24 that we were prisoners and then they didn't shoot.

25 Q. Now, you have mentioned the name of some person whom you called

Page 7412

1 Stela. Do you know his real name?

2 A. Vinko.

3 Q. Do you remember his full name?

4 A. Martinovic. Yes, I knew him much better before the war. He was a

5 taxi driver, and I can point him out to you, if you wish.

6 Q. Yes, if you can do it, please, you may do it.

7 A. Wearing a dark suit with a tie, next to Tuta.

8 Q. On which desk, at which desk is he sitting now?

9 A. At the last -- in the last row, the first next to the policeman on

10 the left, so he is right next to him; and Tuta has grey hair and is

11 sitting next to him.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ajanic. But did Vinko Martinovic know you?

13 A. Yes, quite well. We were even neighbours for a time, and you can

14 ask him also. He will tell you.

15 Q. Did you know other members of his family?

16 A. I did; I knew his father and Zvonko, his father's brother, who is

17 a taxi driver to this day.

18 Q. Do you know what position he occupied during the war? I mean Mr.

19 -- Stela.

20 A. As far as I was able to understand, they referred to him as,

21 "General."

22 Q. Do you know to which unit he belonged?

23 A. Just a moment. Vinko Skrobo, the Convicts Battalion.

24 Q. Do you know who was his commander?

25 A. Do you mean who was superior to him, who had a higher rank?

Page 7413

1 Q. Yes, exactly.

2 A. As far as I was able to understand, I think Tuta was superior.

3 Q. What makes you think so?

4 A. Because that's what I think. A couple of times I would hear him

5 asking the other, instead of the other way around, and Tuta has a

6 nickname, which is "Stari," which means old man.

7 Q. Did you know any other soldiers from Stela's unit?

8 A. Yes. I did, but I can't remember the names.

9 Q. So you just mentioned that you worked for Stela's unit. Did you

10 work for him on one occasion only?

11 A. On one occasion as a prisoner, and later, I worked perhaps several

12 times.

13 Q. Now, I would ask you about your work for Stela as a prisoner.

14 Could you tell the Trial Chamber, when did it happen?

15 A. I can't remember the date but if you want me to give you the

16 details, please let me do so.

17 Q. Yes. But first I will ask you some questions and then I will ask

18 you to just recount the whole story. Do you remember who picked you up

19 from Heliodrom and took to Stela's place?

20 A. The two Strumf brothers and this taxi driver. He was a taxi

21 driver before the war. I can't remember now exactly. He was a driver of

22 a Deutz, and it belonged to a Vajda Krilic, 110 C10. It was a blue pickup

23 truck and I used to work with him before the war.

24 Q. Please repeat the full name of brothers. Because it is not

25 entered in the transcript.

Page 7414

1 A. Whose name?

2 Q. The brothers that took you from Heliodrom.

3 A. I think the taxi driver's name was Vlaho. He drove the Deutz.

4 Q. And you just mentioned two brothers who also --

5 A. The Strumf brothers. They are the sons of the late Ivan Culo.

6 Q. Okay. Thank you. How many prisoners did they take from Heliodrom

7 on that day?

8 A. 25.

9 Q. Please and now recount how it happened on that day.

10 A. We came in the Deutz in front of Stela's barracks and they lined

11 us up two by two. However, they separated me and Mujo Tuto. I think his

12 real name is Mustafa and his nickname is Tuto, and he's a car mechanic, an

13 electrician. We waited in front of the barracks for Stela to come and

14 when he arrived, he said, "Do you know where you are?" We said we do.

15 "Will you do what I tell you? If you won't, tell me." However, we said

16 yes. And then he left me and Mujo Tuto to clean the rooms.

17 Q. Mr. Ajanic, I would ask you to slow down because I think that the

18 interpreters may have some problems.

19 A. However, the 23 people were taken away and I went to -- also to

20 the locality in the Liska Street where the hospital was before the war.

21 It was the emergency section of the hospital. At one point, I happened to

22 be cleaning Stela's office. He also happened to be there. Somebody

23 knocked on the door and said, "General, sir, here he is. He's starting to

24 run away." And Stela asked him, "Who is it?" And the other guy said,

25 "Neno Armandic," but I swear by everything and I guarantee that Neno just

Page 7415

1 said, "I did not try it, Stela. You can be sure of that." And Stela

2 said, "Take him downstairs, don't beat him."

3 Q. Mr. Ajanic, stop for one moment because again there are some

4 problems with the transcript. Please repeat the name of the prisoner who

5 was accused of just trying to escape.

6 A. Ernest Takac.

7 Q. Mr. Ajanic, you have not understood me rightly. Who was Ernest

8 Takac?

9 A. I think he was a soldier of Tuta -- of Stela's, in uniform.

10 Q. And now I ask you to repeat the name of prisoner he brought to

11 Stela's office.

12 A. Neno Armandic. Before the war, he was --

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] [no interpretation].

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Unit, yes.

16 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry, I didn't get interpretation. Would you

17 please try again.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, I'm reading the transcript

19 and I'm also listening to what the witness is saying, and I think the

20 interpretation of these attempts by my learned friend the Prosecutor to

21 find out who brought him and who was there, it now turns out that it's a

22 soldier of Tuta's, and then two dashes, and then Stela's, in uniform, so

23 could we please clarify that.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.


Page 7416

1 Q. Yes, Mr. Ajanic, we were talking about Ernest Takac. You told

2 just that you thought that he was soldier of some unit. Which unit?

3 A. Since he came to Stela, I think he was a soldier of Stela's, but I

4 don't know because he addressed him as, "Mr. General, sir."

5 Q. Okay. I think that now the question is clarified.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: And I would like the Trial Chamber to know that

7 our witness has some problems with his hearing so sometimes it's quite

8 possible that he may misunderstand me. That's why I'm trying to speak

9 very slowly.

10 JUDGE CLARK: I think the witness is also a little bit nervous, so

11 we should really treat him gently. He did correct himself on the

12 transcript. He said a soldier of Tuta and corrected himself straight away

13 to Stela, so I think he's very nervous and give him sometime and we'll get

14 there.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. So Mr. Ajanic, you may go ahead with your story that happened on

17 that day.

18 A. However, Enes Takac took Neno Armandic downstairs to the basement

19 and you could hear a loud scream, but Mujo Tuta and I were trying to carry

20 out a garbage can and we saw five or six soldiers on the stairs and we

21 went into a room. Somebody called me, however, they called me Lopata, and

22 told me to come here. I came downstairs and among the people there was

23 Stela, and he told me, "Hit him or you will get the same thing that he is

24 going to get." I started to hit him but I couldn't do it. I said,

25 "Whoever was whatever they were will be that again." And they just

Page 7417

1 laughed and they told me to go into the room.

2 Q. Mr. Ajanic, just stop for one moment. You were talking about some

3 person being beaten. Whom do you mean? Who was beaten?

4 A. Neno Armandic, and I've known him for 20 years.

5 Q. Perhaps you can spell his full name, if you can, please.

6 A. N-E-N-O A-R-M-A-N-E-D-Z [as interpreted]. I'm not really good

7 with words so I apologise, because of my teeth.

8 Q. So you just told us that you knew him before the war.

9 A. Yes. I was also the one among those that he took to the MUP.

10 Q. Okay. You may go ahead with the story.

11 A. Well, maybe they had a drink or something. Anyway, when I came

12 back into the room, he started to scream again. This stopped for a while

13 and somebody backed a car all the way next to the wall of Stela's

14 barracks. Then they took out Neno, two or three soldiers took him out,

15 soldiers whom I don't know. The first left. I mean the right mud guard.

16 They -- excuse me for saying this but they peed into cans of beer, empty

17 beer cans and gave that to him to drink. But one of them took out -

18 please, excuse me - the worst thing and he placed it in his mouth and he

19 asked him, "Do you like this?" And he replied, "Yes, I do." Then we were

20 -- for a while, I was in a room and he took out -- Stela took Mujo Tuta

21 home to take a bath and perhaps to eat something and then he brought him

22 back with two bags in his hand and I asked Mujo, "Where were you?" And he

23 said, "I went and I took a bath," and he also fixed something on Stela's

24 car. There was something wrong with the electrical installation of

25 Stela's car. And he brought back two bags. However, for a while, the

Page 7418

1 people came who were out on the construction site, we were lined up by one

2 soldier, whom I don't remember, and then later Stela came and he said, "Do

3 you know where you are?" Some people said yes, some people were silent

4 and so on. "What you saw you did not see. What you heard, you have not

5 heard. And please understand what can happen to you, too."

6 And he told the driver, Vlaho, take these 24 people to the

7 Heliodrom, and this one person tell -- say that he tried to escape and he

8 was left behind. And that was Neno Armandic, and he stayed behind us and

9 he was in the place where you repair cars and he was covered by boards.

10 Q. Did he ever return to Heliodrom -- I mean Neno Armandic?

11 A. No. And later I heard that he was transferred to Hit, where

12 the Sarajevo bank is, and he was dead. He disappeared. I personally

13 don't know to this day where his grave is.

14 Q. Mr. Ajanic, let's return to the morning of that day, to the moment

15 when the people from Stela's unit were picking up prisoners for job. Did

16 you see Neno Armandic in the morning, before you were taken to Stela's

17 place?

18 A. Let me tell you, when Stela's unit came, these two brothers, the

19 Strumf brothers, the sons of Ivan Culo, specially asked for Neno Armandic,

20 who was in room number 1, and he escaped to room number 5. And Hamica

21 Siptar gave him away. That's what they called him. He gave Neno Armandic

22 away. He said, "I know where he is." And the two of them and Hamica went

23 and brought him.

24 Q. In what condition was he when you saw him in the morning?

25 A. He looked well.

Page 7419

1 Q. In what condition was he when you saw him last on that day?

2 A. God forbid anybody to have to go through that, and I wouldn't like

3 to respond to that question.

4 Q. But still I think that the Trial Chamber would like to know a

5 little bit about his condition. I understand that it's a very sad story

6 and it's very difficult for you, but still, this is a courtroom and this

7 is the last chance for you for speaking out. Please try to recall.

8 A. I will also tell you this honestly and clearly: I feel much --

9 the first time, he was bloody; the second time, he was black and blue; and

10 the third time, he looked as if he had gained at least 15 or 20

11 kilogrammes, so imagine -- you can imagine what he looked like.

12 Q. Thank you. And now again, I understand that you feel a little bit

13 shy but you just told the Trial Chamber about "the worst thing" that was

14 put into Armandic's mouth. I think that you should, I'm sorry, call a

15 spade a spade.

16 A. Well, let me say this; it's somewhat rude, if you will excuse

17 me. I don't know how to say it. We say that we call it penis.

18 Q. Mr. Ajanic, did you tell about this incident to the investigator

19 when you were being interviewed?

20 A. No, because they -- I was always questioned by women and, to tell

21 you the truth, I was ashamed.

22 Q. And just to clarify one more question, talking about Armandic, was

23 he a policeman or the civilian police?

24 A. He was an agent for thieves, for robberies, for robbers, for drug

25 addicts. There it is.

Page 7420

1 Q. Mr. Ajanic, could you describe Stela's headquarter building,

2 headquarters building. If you remember, of course.

3 A. I remember it well and even -- if I saw it, I could show you the

4 exact office, even if it was in a hundred different ways, I could still

5 get the address, the exact address.

6 Q. First of all, I would like you to describe the building itself,

7 from the outside.

8 A. Yes. Because the Chetnik war had gone on before, the building was

9 somewhat neglected. It looked -- it was situated in a nice park. There

10 was a garage in front of it, the entrance was from the Kalemova Street,

11 the vehicle entrance, and then I can't remember exactly, but from the

12 Rondo was the pedestrian entrance, for example, the owners of the

13 apartments. And downstairs, when you entered, there was a cellar, the

14 first floor. On the second floor was Stela's office, it was a door to the

15 left. When you entered the room, Stela's desk was on the left and his

16 chair. To this day I remember a white telephone.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Mr. Usher, I would ask you to show the witness

18 Exhibit number 15.7P.

19 A. This is it. This is the telephone. This is the heater.

20 Q. Just take the pointer and --

21 A. This is the telephone, this is his chair. This is where the door

22 is, or the window, I can't remember precisely where the door is. That's

23 where you would go in, and they would usually be sitting, his soldiers,

24 they would be sitting here. Also I would sit there when I had coffee with

25 him. There was a chair here, I think. This is his office. This is his

Page 7421

1 telephone. These are his papers. These are the windows, and I think that

2 this is where the door is.

3 Q. Mr. Ajanic, do you mean that you entered that office on that day

4 when all this story happened to Armandic?

5 A. Yes. I did go in that day and afterwards, when my child was

6 killed.

7 Q. So Mr. Ajanic, you were returned to Heliodrom on the same day?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And do you know how the HVO soldiers explained the fact that

10 Armandic was missing in Heliodrom?

11 A. To tell you the truth, we don't know that. We don't know that.

12 We, the detainees, didn't know that. We were handed over to the military

13 police and what they talked about amongst themselves, I don't know.

14 Q. How long were you kept in Heliodrom after that accident with

15 Armandic?

16 A. For about two months. Then I went to a work location close to the

17 Hotel Ero when I saw a HVO soldier whom I knew very well. When I was

18 taken from my apartment to the Heliodrom, my wife stayed behind. She was

19 pregnant. She gave birth. I didn't know this. I asked him, "Did my wife

20 give birth?" And he said, "Yes, she did. I will tell you about it." But

21 he didn't tell me about it.

22 Q. What happened then?

23 A. Then I went to the Hotel Ero, where I knew a person called Drago

24 Kordo, he was in the transport business and he was in a unit, I don't

25 remember the name of the unit, and I asked him, his name is Drago Kordo.

Page 7422

1 We called him --

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the nickname.

3 A. So he was surprised when he saw me. I asked him, "Cigo, could you

4 please go to my house and see if my wife has given birth?" However, he

5 went home and he brought back the news that my wife was well and she was

6 fine but that the baby was dead.

7 And I'm asking you if you would permit me to smoke a cigarette,

8 please.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Maybe we should have a break, then, because the

10 witness is really nervous and this is a very -- he's supposed to tell two

11 very sad stories to the Court.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will have an early break.

13 Witness, I have to remind you that you are still under the oath so

14 do not talk to anybody about your testimony today and do not let anybody

15 talk to you about it.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I will not.

17 JUDGE LIU: So you may leave now.

18 We will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.55 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day

21 of January, 2002, at 9.30 a.m.