1 Monday, 21 January 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Are we ready for the next witness?
9 MR. STRINGER: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President. We hope you've
10 recovered from the flu.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 MR. STRINGER: When we broke last Friday, we had a witness who was
13 testifying in closed session.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go back to the closed session, please.
15 [Closed session]
13 Pages 8258-8322 – redacted – closed session
17 [Open session]
18 MR. SCOTT: While we are preparing, Mr. President, I'm told that,
19 and they were already given to the Defence, but I'd like to distribute
20 binders to the Chamber, to the Judges, if they have not already been, a
21 binder of exhibits that will be used with this witness.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interpreters please get the binders as
24 MR. SCOTT: I did overhear the request of the interpreters, Mr.
25 President, and I understand that there are binders for the interpreters as
1 well, so...
2 Mr. President, the testimony of this witness will go to primarily
3 Background, paragraphs 10 and 11; General Allegations, paragraphs 18 to
4 21; paragraphs -- excuse me, count 1, paragraphs 27 and 34; and count 18,
5 paragraphs 53 and 54. And as I mentioned, he will be testifying in --
6 with no protective measures.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 JUDGE LIU: Good evening, sir.
10 THE WITNESS: Good evening.
11 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: Martin Garrod
15 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.
16 Yes, Mr. Scott.
17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Examined by Mr. Scott:
19 Q. Good evening. Good evening, Sir Martin. I apologise for keeping
20 you waiting. We have a few minutes to go this evening, we can at least
21 begin the introduction of your testimony this evening.
22 Sir, is it correct that you are a retired general officer of the
23 Royal British Marines?
24 A. Yes. I served for 37 years in the Royal Marines. My last three
25 years were as commandant general of the Royal Marines in the rank of
1 Lieutenant General.
2 Q. And sir, just so the Judges will understand that position, is it
3 accurate to say that the commandant general of the Royal British Marines
4 is the senior officer, that is, the overall senior officer in charge of
5 the entire British marine force?
6 A. That is correct, yes.
7 Q. And you retired in approximately 1990, sir; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I retired in 1990.
9 Q. And I think it goes without saying, Sir Martin, and I will not go
10 through all the details of your military career, but in your 37 years
11 you served in a number of positions and ranks and in a number of
13 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
14 Q. What I would like to do, sir, if I could, is direct your attention
15 now to the time following your retirement from the Royal Marines. Did you
16 -- and I'm going to go through this somewhat quickly and then go back to
17 the most pertinent time period for the purposes of your testimony here,
18 but is it correct, sir, that at about -- at the end of June, 1993, you
19 were sent on a mission by the European Community Monitoring Mission,
20 otherwise known as ECMM, as an official in the Mostar office of that
22 A. Yes. I volunteered to serve with the EC Monitor Mission and I
23 went out to Bosnia and I was posted to Mostar.
24 Q. And I would -- I should warn you and myself - I've already been
25 cautioned - that because you and I both speak English, we tend to respond
1 to each other, question and answer, quite quickly, which makes it quite
2 difficult for translation, so both of us will have to try to make a bit of
3 a pause. Thank you.
4 Now, sir, when you -- your first position in Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina with the ECMM, that was as the head or the chief person in
6 charge of the coordinating centre for Mostar; is that correct?
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. And I'm going to come -- I'm going to come in a few minutes to
9 give you the opportunity to tell us more about the ECMM and the way it was
10 organised but first through your various positions. And you continued in
11 that position, sir, from about June, 1993 or very late June, 1993, to
12 approximately April, 1994, that is with ECMM?
13 A. Yes, I spent three months in Mostar and then, in October, I was
14 sent up to Zenica, to central Bosnia, to take charge of all the ECMM
15 operations in Bosnia.
16 Q. All right. And that location or that part of ECMM was known as RC
17 - in other words, regional centre - Zenica; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And you maintained -- or excuse me, you remained in that position
20 until about April, 1994?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Now, if I'm correct, sir, then you served in the European Union
23 administration in Mostar from approximately April of 1994 to July, 1996;
24 is that correct?
25 A. Yes. The first few months was the advance party period, then the
12 Blank pages inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French
13 and English transcripts. Pages 8327 to 8336.
1 actual administration, EU administration of Mostar started properly with
2 the inauguration of Hans Koschnik from Germany as the administrator in
3 July, 1996, for a two-year mandate.
4 Q. And during that time, in relation to Mr. Koschnik, what was your
6 A. I was the Chief of Staff.
7 Q. Would it be fair to characterise that position as the number 2
8 position, then, in that organisation?
9 A. Well, technically, the number 2 was -- well, in fact, the number 2
10 was the diplomatic adviser, Mr. Klaus Mescher [phoen] of Germany.
11 Q. All right. Very well.
12 A. So I suppose I was the third in the hierarchy.
13 Q. And you continued in that position until July 1996, and then from
14 July, 1996, to December of that year, did you serve as the European Union
15 special envoy in Mostar?
16 A. Yes. Because the elections which were due to take place at the
17 end of the EU administration had been delayed, it was running behind time,
18 and the EU decided that it would be necessary to have a further six-month
19 period to stabilise the situation in Mostar and so the office of the EU
20 special envoy was established, and I was appointed the EU special envoy.
21 MR. SCOTT: And, Mr. President, I will again remind the Chamber,
22 if it may assist, that I will come back to some of these matters in more
23 detail in the body of Sir Martin's testimony.
24 Q. Is it correct, sir, that then following that position, from
25 approximately January, 1997, to October, 1998, you were the senior
1 representative of the office of the high representative, that position
2 being for all of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but you being his representative
3 in the Mostar region?
4 A. That is correct. It was decided on the end of the EU to establish
5 a regional office of the high representative based in Mostar but covering
6 the southern third of Bosnia from Trebinje in Republika Srpska to Dvar in
7 the west.
8 Q. Finally in this regard, after some break in service, did you, from
9 July 1999 to November 1999, serve as a UN regional administrator in the
10 town of Mitrovica in Kosovo?
11 A. That is correct, yes.
12 Q. Now, if I understand that resume correctly, then, sir, is it fair
13 to say that you had a number of senior positions, either directly in or
14 closely connected to Mostar, from approximately the end of June, 1993,
15 until approximately October of 1998?
16 A. Yes. Apart from my six months in Zenica in central Bosnia, I was
17 in Mostar for five and a half years.
18 Q. And even when you were in Zenica, sir, as I understand it -- I'm
19 sorry for the speed -- your authority or jurisdiction, if you will,
20 continued to extend over the Mostar region?
21 A. That is correct. My area covered from Tuzla in the north to
22 Mostar in the south.
23 Q. All right. Now, backing up specifically to your appointment, your
24 first appointment as head of the coordination centre in Mostar, who did
25 you follow in that position?
1 A. My immediate predecessor was a German, Klaus Nissen.
2 Q. And then when you moved on to take command or control of the
3 regional centre Zenica, who took over as the head of CC Mostar?
4 A. On a temporary basis, it was my deputy down there, who was
5 Spanish, Jesus Amatriain, and then I sent down from Zenica a man called
6 Philip Watkins to take over as head of CC Mostar.
7 Q. And where had Mr. Watkins previously been assigned?
8 A. He'd spent, I think it was about nine months in central Bosnia in
9 the Travnik area.
10 Q. All right. Now, when you took the position of the head of RC
11 Zenica, who did you follow in that position?
12 A. I followed a French diplomat, Jean-Pierre Thebault.
13 Q. And during the time during the approximate three-month period that
14 you were the head of the Mostar CC, was -- in terms of the
15 organisational structure of ECMM, was Mr. Thebault your superior or the
16 person you reported to?
17 A. Yes. He was my direct superior as the head of the regional
19 Q. All right. Now, a little bit about ECMM. Can you just describe
20 to the Chamber - and they've certainly heard a bit about ECMM in the
21 course of the trial, but can you tell them a bit more about the mission of
22 ECMM and the mandate that it had in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
23 A. Yes, certainly. I will try and keep it as short as possible. The
24 ECMM was established initially to monitor the ceasefire in Slovenia and
25 then its role was expanded into Croatia and then on to Bosnia and so on.
1 It was intended to be part of the whole -- another instrument towards
2 working towards peace in the whole region, and it was divided into seven
3 regional centres. There was the headquarters of the whole ECMM in Zagreb
4 the Hotel E, then the seven regional centres: There were two in Croatia,
5 Zagreb and Knin; one in Bosnia, Zenica; then there was Szeged, Sofia,
6 Tirana and Belgrade.
7 Now, those regional centres had under them coordinating centres.
8 So if we take the example of Bosnia, there was the regional centre in
9 Zenica, and three coordinating centres; Tuzla, Travnik and Mostar. Each
10 coordinating centre had a number of monitor teams under it. For example,
11 in Mostar, I had four teams. Mike 1 in Jablanica, Konjic to the north;
12 Mike 2, Mostar; Mike 3, Medjugorje; and Mike 4, to the west in
13 Tomislavgrad. Each team consisted of four members; two international
14 monitors of different nationalities, one driver and one interpreter.
15 We were all dressed in white, distinctive white; white flak
16 jackets, white helmets when necessary, and we travelled in white cars,
17 white vehicles. The fundamental role was report -- although we did a lot
18 of negotiating, discussing, go-between between the various parties and so
19 on, the fundamental role was reporting, reporting in the following order:
20 Political matters, military matters, and then humanitarian matters.
21 At the end of each day, each team would send in a written report
22 to the coordinating centre. The coordinating centre would amalgamate a
23 report and dispatch it to the regional centre, and all the regional
24 centres would send in combined reports to the main headquarters in Zagreb,
25 and from then on, they would produce a comprehensive report which would go
1 to the EU presidency and all the nations who are involved in the actual
2 ECMM, so that first thing in the morning, they had a full, comprehensive
3 report of what was going on throughout the whole of the former Yugoslavia,
4 which was right up to date.
5 Q. All right, sir. Thank you very much. I might direct -- if the
6 witness could be shown the bundle or the binder of exhibits prepared for
7 him, and if I can direct the courtroom's attention to the first exhibit in
8 that bundle, in the very just few minutes we have remaining, I could ask
9 you to look, please, at Exhibit P86.1.
10 A. Yes, I have it.
11 Q. Sir, you've done such a thorough job in the last few minutes that
12 you've covered most of what's in this document, but nonetheless, it might
13 assist the Chamber in the future. Can you just briefly cast your eyes on
14 that document and tell the Chamber what this document is.
15 A. This is a summary of the agreement in Brioni on the 7th of
16 July, 1991, which was established -- when the ECMM was set up.
17 Q. All right. And this, is it correct, talks about the basic --
18 it starts out with talking about the role, talks about the main mode of
19 action, as indicated here, and a bit about the organisational structure as
20 you've told us in the last few minutes; is that correct?
21 A. That is correct, yes.
22 Q. Let me pick up on a point -- few points of clarification.
23 I'm sorry, I'm once again picking up too much speed.
24 It is probably known, sir, to most people in the courtroom,
25 perhaps everyone, but so the record is clear, a few moments ago, you were
1 referring to the teams as Mike 1, Mike 2, et cetera, and I assume -- is it
2 correct that you're using Mike as a military reference to the initial M?
3 A. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes, that's the M for -- because it was
4 Mostar, Mike, absolutely right. I should have explained that.
5 Q. Very well. Now, in addition to another -- other few details
6 before we conclude this evening, you mentioned that all the ECMM monitors
7 were dressed in white. Is it also correct that they were at all times
9 A. Always unarmed, but nearly always travelling in armoured [Realtime
10 transcript read in error "armed"] Mercedes, four-wheel-drive vehicles.
11 Q. And this indicates --
12 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, on the transcript, it seems to
13 have come across as "armed" Mercedes.
14 A. Sorry.
15 Q. I assume, Sir Martin, the Mercedes were not armed, but did you
16 mean to say they were armoured?
17 A. Armoured, armoured, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. And in connection with the seven regional centres you
19 mentioned, and concluding RC Zenica, is it correct, then, that RC Zenica,
20 with one or two exceptions which you can explain to us, was essentially
21 then the headquarters ECMM office for the vast majority of Bosnia and
23 A. Yes. From Zenica, all the ECMM operations were covered, but we
24 did not have monitors in Republika Srpska, nor did we have monitors in the
25 Bosniak pockets -- wrong -- yes, Bihac, Zepa, Gorazde and Srebrenica, nor
1 in Sarajevo. So it was basically the central area of Bosnia which was in
2 due course to become the basis of the federation between the Bosniaks and
3 the Croats.
4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I would submit that might be an
5 appropriate moment to stop.
6 JUDGE LIU: Sir, as I did with other witnesses, during your stay
7 here in The Hague, please do not talk to anybody about your testimony and
8 do not let anybody talk to you about it.
9 THE WITNESS: Certainly.
10 JUDGE LIU: The usher will show you out of the room.
11 THE WITNESS: Fine.
12 JUDGE LIU: And we will resume at 2.15 tomorrow afternoon.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
14 7.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
15 the 22nd day of January, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.