Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11656

1 Thursday, 23 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'll

10 try and be very brief because yesterday I managed to study the

11 documentation that was delivered to us by our learned friend yesterday,

12 before the beginning of the cross-examination. So I would like to draw

13 your attention to the thing that I have been drawing to your attention to

14 all the time, and those are the documents which have major omissions in

15 them, and that is why I consider them unusable.

16 I shall start with documents -- it is interesting that all these

17 documents show as their source the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

18 so I would kindly ask the Prosecutor to tell us what he considers to be

19 the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as we all know only too well

20 that such a government does not exist.

21 Let me draw your attention to the first document, P123 in English

22 original, it has two pages. On page 2, some sentences have been added

23 subsequently, Joker and Andric are the words added and they don't exist in

24 the Croatian original, there is no page 2 and there are no additions.

25 Interestingly enough that 8367, that numbers are in sequence, 8367 and

Page 11657

1 8368. So we are talking about Exhibit 5123, look at the second page of

2 the English translation and look at the Croatian original. There is no

3 second page, nor is it mentioned anywhere in the Croatian original. And

4 the source is still the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Even more

5 striking example is Exhibit P127. Please look at the English translation,

6 where it says that it was signed and stamped, signed by General Major Ante

7 Roso. There is no signature. The stamp in the Croatian original is

8 illegible. One could maybe conclude that this is the Main Staff of

9 Herceg-Bosna and that's the end of it. It is a totally illegible copy and

10 somethings added by hand, namely the sentences. First in capital letters,

11 and then somebody added by hand, in the Croatian original, all these

12 things, which obviously you can't see in the English translation.

13 Another confusing thing, same objections, may be addressed to

14 Exhibit P339. I apologise, Your Honours, the Prosecutor changed it into

15 P348, although you have already adopted the same exhibit under number

16 P339, earlier on, so why has the number been changed and why has the

17 exhibit being introduced under a new number? I don't know. You will

18 come to an English text which says, "Command structure for the HV army."

19 The Prosecutor's number has been crossed out and one person added by hand,

20 I don't know, Your Honours whether you have it in front of you, somebody

21 added by hand, "Signed by Alija Izetbegovic, signed by Mate Boban, signed

22 by General Sefer Halilovic, signed by General Petkovic and also added

23 by hand in Zagreb, 23 April, 1993.. We don't know the source of this

24 document. There is no sign of the archives. Again what is mentioned is

25 the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is really interesting that

Page 11658

1 the text is there printed and then somebody adds, by hand, and as if these

2 people were on the document originally.

3 Further on, Your Honours, there is a transcript of an interview,

4 given by Mr. Bender to the Croatian television. The name of the programme

5 is "Picture in Pictures. "Slikom na Sliku.". The source for that again is

6 the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, although the -- this is Croatian

7 Television, but we don't know the date when this show aired, the year when

8 this show aired, why no data whatsoever about this document, and it is

9 really surprising that again the source is the government of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina.

11 Further on, Your Honours, document P239.2. Both the English

12 original and the Croatian copy have not been signed, so they have not been

13 signed by any one person. And since these are UN documents, at least that

14 is what it says on the documents, I believe that these documents have to

15 be signed in person, if they are signed.

16 And finally, Your Honours, let me just find this document,

17 Mr. Prosecutor has provided us with a copy of a joint -- the notorious

18 joint statement that has been disputed here and the dispute is about

19 whether it has been signed by misters Boban and Izetbegovic, a copy that

20 he provided us with earlier on is very much different from the one that he

21 provided us with yesterday. So we are talking about the joint statement

22 issued on the 2nd of April, 1993. Your Honours, you can see that this

23 copy is clean. However, the one that we received in the last binder on

24 the top of the page it says, in the Ekavian dialect "Boban's proposal."

25 That has been added by hand. And the source again is the government of

Page 11659

1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I apologise, Your Honours, here it says that is

2 Exhibit P271, in capital letters you can see it, added by hand, "Boban's

3 proposal." Whereas in the statement that we received earlier on, this

4 does not exist.

5 The Defence has every reason to doubt the sources of -- for these

6 documents. It doubts that it is the government of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. We don't have to be experts on constitutional and legal

8 matters, but still, we have to be certain that this has not been sent by

9 any ministers. There -- the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 certainly did not exist in 1993. We would like to establish who is it who

11 gives these documents to the OTP, the Defence claims that it has -- it is

12 being done AID -- by AID. That's what I've always been saying, and I have

13 always been right. I believe that this is a secret terrorist, political

14 police, serving just one component, one party, and one army, and that is

15 the Bosniak Muslim one.

16 Secondly, Your Honours, I have the correspondence about our

17 requests to the OTP, I'm not going to enumerate all the dates of these

18 letters, and we, in these documents, asked for the disclosure of

19 documents. Very soon you will hear the testimony -- I now have the

20 reliable data that the Prosecutor, i.e. the Office of the Prosecutor of

21 this Tribunal, has received many documents of the Army of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, as long ago as in 1995 and some they received in 1996. And

23 especially in the past few years, those are the documents which are

24 relative to item 5, and that is the general distribution, widespread, of

25 the crimes allegedly committed by HVO after the 16th of April in the

Page 11660

1 entire territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 I claim that the Prosecutor has documents originating from the

3 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina dating back before 16 of April, talking

4 about their orders and their attacks on the HVO, which would mean -- which

5 would be beneficial for us in respect of item 5. So I would kindly ask

6 the Prosecutor to disclose these documents, and we would like to ask Their

7 Honours to issue a binding order and we are going to ask for such orders

8 for a number of institutions and some persons that we are going to call to

9 testify. I am kindly asking you to start the closed session now.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to private session, please.

11 [Private session]

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

10 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, while the witness comes in, I've just

11 listened to your ruling or your statements, and the Defence finds itself

12 in a Catch-22. You stated that you believe all exculpatory evidence in

13 possession of the Prosecution will be turned over to us. We are in a

14 situation that we are being dictated what documents might be relevant to

15 our defence by the Prosecution. We cannot point out what documents we

16 want until we see them, and all we are asking is that we could have a time

17 to sit down with the Prosecutor's investigator in their office and look

18 through the documents, then we could advise ourselves or be convinced that

19 in fact there are no exculpatory documents in regards to the army of BiH.

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I'm sorry to tell you that every

21 Defence team before this Tribunal, facing the same problem with you. And

22 there are jurisprudence before this Tribunal concerning the criteria of

23 the exculpatory documents. The meetings between the two parties are

24 encouraged by this Trial Chamber, but so far as I know, whether this

25 document is exculpatory will be decided by the Prosecutor.

Page 11665

1 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. If that's your ruling for the

2 record, then we know what it is. The other thing real quickly is on the

3 Witness SS. I understand your seized with that motion.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, if we are talking about this witness, shall we

5 go back to the closed session?

6 MR. MEEK: I'm not going to mention any other names. I'm going to

7 ask you, we have seven days to file a response and we are getting ready to

8 do that Your Honour, so I ask you not to make any rulings before you

9 receive our response.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. MEEK: Thank you.

12 JUDGE LIU: So could we have the witness, please?

13 [The witness entered court].

14 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16 JUDGE LIU: Will you please sit down?

17 Yes, Mr. Scott?

18 WITNESS: IVAN BENDER [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President, as I'm sure the Court will

21 understand, my remaining time will, of course, start now. And not the

22 past half hour.

23 Cross-examination by Mr. Scott: [Continued]

24 Q. Sir, I'm not sure I heard your testimony during direct examination

25 correctly on this point or not, but if I did, you said something about the

Page 11666

1 effect that the HDZ BiH, that is the political party by that name, froze

2 its activities sometime in 1993 or 1994. Is that what you told us?

3 A. It is. The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina did not work in 1993 and

4 1994.

5 Q. And did it become active again after that?

6 A. I wouldn't know exactly which month it was, but there part -- it

7 was simply a moratorium on the activity of the party and after that period

8 it resumed its normal functions.

9 Q. In fact, sir, isn't it true that that party has been extremely

10 active for the past several years and is still active today, correct?

11 A. Since the foundation of the Croat Democratic Union of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, let me not repeat it not to waste time, we were very

13 active. We are active today because we take part in all the walks of life

14 in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

15 Q. Sir, are you currently seeking or being considered for the

16 position of the President of the HDZ BiH for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

17 A. No, your information is not correct. On the 11th of May, we

18 elected acting president of the Croat Democratic Union, and that is Barisa

19 Colak.

20 Q. Well, were you seeking prior to the 11th of May, sir, were you

21 seeking or being considered for that position?

22 A. Before the election of the acting president, there were various

23 considerations, various suggestions. My name figured in those because I'm

24 also a member of the Presidency of the Croat Democratic Union.

25 Q. Sir, isn't it true that during 1993 time period, that for all

Page 11667

1 practical purposes Franjo Tudjman made all the important decisions for the

2 HDZ BiH?

3 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. That is not so. Mr. Franjo Tudjman, the

4 president of the Republic of Croatia and president of the HDZ of the

5 Republic of Croatia, did not take any decisions on behalf of the Croat

6 Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We, the members of the Croat

7 Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina and relevant bodies adopted and

8 prepared all the necessary decisions.

9 Q. All right, sir, so if on a review of these documents that are

10 described as the presidential transcripts, we have I put it to you

11 instance after instance of President Tudjman directing and making

12 decisions for the HDZ delegations coming from Herceg-Bosna, you would deny

13 that? Is that your testimony?

14 A. It is a fact that we attended some meetings at the president's --

15 president of the Republic of Croatia and the president of the HDZ of the

16 Republic of Croatia, Mr. Tudjman, but it was at the time when the

17 international community had made President Tudjman responsible and

18 authorised him to represent, to a certain degree, the Croats or rather the

19 HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And we too decided to give him those powers,

20 but in all the meetings where the future of the Croats in

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina was being discussed, there was also our delegation

22 present, that is the delegation of the HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23 Q. Sir, during the time period from 1992 and continuing into 1995 and

24 thereafter, didn't you frequently refer to President Franjo Tudjman of

25 Croatia as quote "your president" or " our president"?

Page 11668

1 A. Mr. Franjo Tudjman is the President of the Republic of Croatia.

2 He is the President of the HDZ of the Republic of Croatia, and it is a

3 custom for, amongst us Croats to say often that President Tudjman is the

4 President of all the Croats, but it has nothing to do with the state or

5 any other system. I believe you know that Article, I believe, 10 of the

6 constitution of the Republic of Croatia specifies that the Republic of

7 Croatia takes care of the Croats outside the Republic of Croatia.

8 Q. And as part of his control over the HDZ BiH, sir, is it not

9 correct that it was President Franjo Tudjman and his closest advisers in

10 the government of Croatia who removed Mate Boban as the President of the

11 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna in late 1993 or early 1994?

12 A. What I heard is not true. After an all-round analysis, competent

13 bodies of the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna and the Croat Republic

14 Herceg-Bosna removed the president of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

15 president of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna.

16 Q. Sir, isn't it a fact that by late 1993, President Franjo Tudjman

17 and the government of Croatia was under intense pressure from the

18 international community because of the conduct of the Croatian community

19 and subsequently Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, the conduct of the HDZ

20 in Herceg-Bosna and the conduct of the HVO and as a result of that

21 pressure, President Tudjman removed Mr. Boban, correct?

22 A. President Boban was removed from his offices by us. I said

23 members of the Croat Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and members

24 of the House of Representatives of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna. And I

25 learned only from the press and other media that I could hear that the

Page 11669

1 Republic of Croatia, that President Tudjman and the government of the

2 Republic of Croatia were under certain pressure of the international

3 community.

4 Q. Sir, you've said throughout your testimony that you were one of

5 the founders and senior leaders of the HDZ BiH, the Croatian Community of

6 Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and in fact at one

7 point, on the first day of your testimony, you said that you were part of,

8 and I believe I quote a part of the transcript, "a small circle of the

9 leadership." Sir, are you telling the Judges here that you are one of the

10 people responsible for the policy and practices of the HDZ in the Croatian

11 Community of Herceg-Bosna toward the Muslims who were located in the

12 territory of Herceg-Bosna?

13 A. It is true that from the beginning, I was a member of the Croat

14 Community Herceg-Bosna and one of its founders. And also one of the

15 founders of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, and that I occupied the

16 highest posts. I am also one of the founders of the Croat Democratic

17 Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I participated in the work of the relevant

18 institutions, in which we adopted our platforms our programmes and took

19 the necessary decisions. And as for the Muslims, from our discussion, the

20 previous one and the one that will follow, you will see that the Croat

21 Democratic Union is indeed democratic, and that it never resorted to any

22 methods that would not fall into that category. I wish to point out here

23 one thing that I said at a number of meetings: If, in the course of the

24 activities of certain relevant bodies, there perhaps were certain

25 omissions or certain crimes, then I requested, and I requested here too,

Page 11670

1 that those who did that or who possibly did that, need to be called to

2 account before relevant institutions and suffer the consequences as

3 prescribed by law.

4 Q. Sir, I'm going to put my question to you again very specifically,

5 whether you believe that the policies of the Croatian Community of

6 Herceg-Bosna, whether you believe they were good or bad, whether you

7 believe they were discriminatory or not discriminatory, are the Judges

8 of this Chamber to understand that you are one of the persons responsible

9 for those policies and practices?

10 A. The policy of the Croat Democratic Union, that is the Croat

11 Community Herceg-Bosna and the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna did -- was not

12 at variance with international democratic standards. It was public. It

13 was not discriminatory, and all the peoples who lived in that area enjoyed

14 an equal treatment. As for the legislative branch of the government, and

15 especially after I was elected the President of the House of

16 Representatives of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, sometime in early

17 1994, I was one of the most responsible persons for the conduct of the

18 legislative branch of the government.

19 Q. And this is the legislature that yesterday, under oath, you can't

20 tell us how often they met or where they met or in fact if they met hardly

21 at all, correct?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, that is not true, because yesterday, we did not

23 discuss the work of the House of Representatives of the Croat Republic

24 Herceg-Bosna. We talked yesterday about the work of the Presidency of the

25 Croat Community Herceg-Bosna in 1992 and part of 1993.

Page 11671

1 Q. Sir, turning to the documents, the HVO and HDZ documents, can you

2 please -- you've indicated, I believe, in so many words, you have nothing

3 to hide and Mr. Krsnik said he has nothing to hide. Can you tell us where

4 these documents are located, please?

5 A. The -- all the archives of the institutions of the Croat Community

6 Herceg-Bosna, the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna is duly archived, but every

7 agency, every body kept its archive in a different place. Until I was

8 removed from these legislative duties, this documentation was in Mostar

9 and elsewhere. I believe it is still there, unless --

10 Q. Give us the street address in Mostar so that all of us, to assist

11 the Chamber, can please obtain these very important documents. Can you

12 give me the street address in Mostar where the documents are located?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into

15 private session, please, for a second?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

17 [Private session]

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session. Witness, you may

13 answer that question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The archive of the Croat Community

15 Herceg-Bosna and the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna is the property of the

16 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ask the

17 relevant authorities through regular channels, and you will get all the

18 necessary documentation. However, I need to point out that it is a fact

19 that there have been cases, because I know that, when SFOR members broke

20 into some archives and did what counsel Krsnik mentioned. Let me sum up.

21 MR. SCOTT:

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... my question I'm going to come

23 back to it very specifically. Tell me, please, as far as you know, where

24 they are located and if you say there are several, please pick one, pick

25 one in Mostar, please give me the street address and tell me where this

Page 11673

1 archive is located?

2 A. I have not been directly involved in all that for the past three

3 years, and I do not know what went on during that time, but I repeat, use

4 the regular procedure, ask for it from the federation agencies, the

5 agencies of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I believe they know where that

6 documentation is.

7 Q. When was the last time, sir, that you, yourself visited, actually

8 visited and saw one of these archives?

9 A. The archive of the House of Representatives of the Croat Republic

10 Herceg-Bosna, whilst it still existed, that is until the Dayton Accords,

11 and the transfer of powers from the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna to the

12 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Bosnia and Herzegovina, these

13 documents were kept on the premises of the House of Representatives of the

14 Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, and the secretary of the House of

15 Representatives, Mr. Mile Kudic, was responsible for the storage and

16 proper keeping of the archive.

17 Q. And what was that location, sir? The physical location of those

18 documents?

19 A. Physically, physically, it was in Mostar. I'm not sure what the

20 street is called but you can check it very easily. I'm sure everybody

21 knows it because streets change their names, so on the premises of the

22 House of Representatives of the Assembly of the Croat Republic

23 Herceg-Bosna. And I believe I'm quite clear.

24 Q. I repeat my question to you, sir. When was the last time you,

25 Ivan Bender, saw one of these -- was physically present at any one of

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1 these archives?

2 A. I've already said that I was physically present every day whilst

3 the House of Representatives functioned, and that was, I believe, late

4 1995. That is right up to the Dayton Accords, I had access to this

5 documentation, because this is the documentation of the House of

6 Representatives of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, which was subsequently

7 placed under the jurisdiction of the parliament of the Federation of

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 Q. Sir, you've told?

10 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, I want to remind you that witnesses who

11 come before this Tribunal are under an obligation to answer questions.

12 You have come very close in my view to what would be considered contempt

13 of this Court. I posed many questions to you which you failed to answer.

14 Mr. Krsnik tried to get you to answer. And now Mr. Scott is asking you

15 the same question. I want to remind you of your position here. You are

16 under an obligation to answer questions that this Chamber deems are

17 legitimately put to you. You have stated that you attended at the house

18 of representatives almost every day until 1995 and yet you appear to be

19 refusing to furnish this Court with the address of that place that you

20 attended every day for years. We don't care if the name of the place has

21 changed. What was the address of that place when you attended it every

22 day? That's the first question.

23 Secondly, Mr. Scott asked you twice when did you last actually

24 physically see the archive? Not when you were last in the building where

25 you believe it was kept. When did you last physically, actually see the

Page 11676

1 archive? I'm sorry if I'm being strict with you, Mr. Bender. I think

2 it's time that we were clear about your position vis-a-vis this Tribunal,

3 your obligation to answer.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Judge Clark, I think

5 that yesterday there was a misunderstanding. I believe we talked at

6 cross-purposes during questions and answers, because of our different

7 political systems. The political system that you come from and the one

8 that I come from. If you have time and if you allow me, we can talk about

9 this further. As for the archive of the House of Representatives of the

10 Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, I do not know about any other archive because

11 other people are responsible for it, the street had no name at the time so

12 it had the address as I said, "House of Representatives, Hrvatski Dom, of

13 the Croat Republic in Mostar" so the street didn't have a name, no

14 number. Later on the streets were given names but which is it, I don't

15 know. So I saw it. I was there and I had access to that documentation.

16 JUDGE CLARK: Just a moment, Mr. Bender.

17 Mr. Scott, it seems to me that Mr. Bender is saying -- is talking

18 about the records of the House of Representatives. I do not believe that

19 they are what we are talking about. You are talking about the archive of

20 the HZ HB, which is quite different, which would contain documents

21 received by the political party.

22 MR. SCOTT: Judge Clark, that's absolutely correct. Although I

23 must say I would be happy to receive information about any archive

24 belonging to the HVO, the HDZ, Herceg-Bosna. I would be happy to hear any

25 specific information.

Page 11677

1 JUDGE CLARK: I think in fairness to the witness, because I'm

2 being quite cross with him, we better be sure that he and the courts and

3 you are talking about the same thing so first of all, can I continue

4 before we do that, can the road where you say there was no name and no

5 number, where was it close to? What was the nearest street that had a

6 name? Which part of Mostar was it in?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this, our premises, that is of

8 the House of Representatives, were in the west side, on the west side,

9 next to the Mostar hotel, and for a while, also in the -- on the premises

10 of what was called the Hrvatski Dom, Herceg Stjepan Kosac, once again in

11 the western

12 part of Mostar.

13 JUDGE CLARK: And when was the last time that you attended the

14 House of Representatives on the west side next to the Mostar Hotel? Is

15 that the ERO Hotel or the Mostar Hotel?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Hotel -- Mostar Hotel.

17 I think Ero is a little bit further off and it's not there, so whilst the

18 House of Representatives worked until the transfer of powers, I was

19 physically there, and I had in my possession this documentation and had

20 access to it. And I have already said that my secretary, or rather the

21 secretary of the House of Representatives, discharged these duties and was

22 responsible for the documents of the House of Representatives of the Croat

23 Republic Herceg-Bosna.

24 JUDGE CLARK: The last time you were there, you say, was when

25 power was handed over pursuant to the Dayton Accord. Where is the House

Page 11678

1 of Representatives -- sorry, if that is so, do you know whether there was

2 a hand-over of archives to the new governing body after the Dayton -- in

3 accordance with the Dayton Accord?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know, because our secretary

5 was responsible for that. It was his job. So one should check with the

6 secretary of the House of Representatives. He still discharges certain

7 duties in the parliament of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So

8 I just do not know whether the documentation was handed over.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you, Mr. Bender. I really can't understand

10 why you didn't give us all this information before. It doesn't seem to be

11 classified information. Your witness now, Mr. Scott.

12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Judge Clark.

13 Q. Sir, once again you've told us repeatedly that you are one of the

14 senior officials among a small circling of the leadership. So I put these

15 questions to you as someone who, based on that, I take it, would have --

16 might have information. Can you tell us, please, in light of what you've

17 said about making request, can you tell us, please, why the HVO and the

18 HDZ and those people that are still representing, as you call it, the

19 Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina, have not in fact produced documents at the

20 request of the Prosecutor time after time after time since at least 1997?

21 A. Personally, I don't know that the archives of the House of

22 Representatives of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna has ever been

23 asked for. If it had been asked I would have made sure that it was

24 available both to the Prosecutor and to the Court, because it is public

25 documentation. And as for the archive of -- archives of other

Page 11679

1 institutions of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and the Croatian

2 Community of Herceg-Bosna, you have to ask the leaders who held offices in

3 the last mandate in the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and it is very

4 easy to find out who these people are.

5 Q. Sir, you have been one of the leaders. That's why I'm asking

6 you. One of the general leaders. Perhaps not holding a particular office

7 at a particular time, but you've told us repeatedly, you're one of the

8 senior leaders of the Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- excuse me, can I

9 finish my question -- and that you just, until -- in the last days,

10 literally days as we stand here now were being considered to be president

11 of the HDZ BiH political party. It's on that basis that I put these

12 questions to you?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, to a specific question

15 the witness gave a specific answer. This is repetitive. I believe that

16 the witness has provided a very specific answer to a very specific

17 question. And the further insinuations refer to the year 2002. The

18 witness has provided a very specific answer to a very specific question.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, I guess the witness has answered your

20 question. Probably he really doesn't know.

21 MR. SCOTT: If I could ask one final question, Mr. President, and

22 I will move on to the next topic.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. SCOTT: I'll try to make it into one question.

25 Q. Sir, listen to my question please. To the extent you ever

Page 11680

1 knowledge, can you please assist this Chamber with understanding why the

2 officials of -- representing the Bosnian Croat part -- the Croatians of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that part of the federation, this jointly organised

4 with the Muslims into the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, why the Croats

5 from Bosnia-Herzegovina have not produced documents going back to 1997 and

6 request -- in orders, binding orders from Judge McDonald, Judge Jorda

7 and Judge May. Now, why haven't those orders ever been complied with?

8 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear the witness's answer.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But he has already answered that same

10 question.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's the --

12 MR. KRSNIK: Page 21, 22.

13 JUDGE LIU: That's the specific question. Yes. Witness?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A very specific answer -- the

15 archives of the House of Representatives that I'm responsible for, nobody

16 has ever asked for. The archives of the government of the Croatian

17 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, you have to ask Mr. Jadranko Prlic and those who

18 succeeded him, and as for the archives of the Croatian Defence Council,

19 that so that is the military component, you ever to ask the Defence

20 Ministry and the Chief of the Main Staff. I know that General Blaskic was

21 there and who succeeded him, I don't know, but it's very easy to establish

22 that. I don't want to do the guessing. So the responsible person who

23 were there while the institutions were functioning, it is very easy to

24 establish where the documents are, whether it has ever been asked for, why

25 it has never been surrendered and if that is the case, these persons

Page 11681

1 should be taken to task.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I said that would be my last question

3 so I won't pursue it further.

4 Mr. President, before I move on, this would be just an opportune

5 moment. I said yesterday, in the course of the examination that I would

6 provide the Chamber with the relevant portions of the 1991 census data,

7 and those have been marked as Exhibits P109.1 and P109.2. And since they

8 were first prepared and I'm sorry they are separate and will have to be

9 reassembled, but they are the English translations of the columns of

10 statistics so that the headings and categories -- can be read and

11 understood by those not speaking Serbo-Croatian. They may come up in the

12 further course the witness's testimony, but since they came up yesterday I

13 told the Chamber I would provide this.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before we move on to

16 the questions relative to the statistics dating to 1992, I object because

17 we do not have the integral statistical data. This is just an excerpt

18 from a book or from a report. This is just one page. And this can be

19 interpreted by an expert in demography. Lay persons cannot tell and

20 understand anything from this one page. This is not an integral

21 document. I believe that this book contains further explanations and

22 instructions for lay people. Second point, Your Honours, the 1991, 1992

23 is marked by the largest migrations in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Without the

24 help of experts, any examination regarding this document is a waste of

25 time.

Page 11682

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I believe that those documents

2 are just for the reference purpose and if the Prosecution will tender

3 these documents into evidence, I believe we have to see the original

4 documents with the proper sources and the date. And it is not important

5 issue at this stage. I thank you for your remarks, because if we admit

6 those documents into evidence, when we are weighing these documents, we

7 will take your views into full consideration.

8 Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Q. Sir, in connection with the formation of the Croatian Community of

11 Herceg-Bosna, which you say you were one of the founders of, you attended

12 a meeting in Grude on the 12th of November, 1991, correct?

13 A. Hard to remember, but I assume I did. If you have a document, I

14 would very much like to see it.

15 Q. Well, let me ask you this, and I will in a few moments but right

16 now I'm just asking you some background questions. Is it correct, and I

17 believe you said yesterday, that in your senior position, you participated

18 in a number of meetings in connection with forming or establishing the

19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna; is that right?

20 A. That is right. We had meetings, we had consultations, the leaders

21 of the HDZ and a certain number of municipalities and we prepared the

22 formation of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

23 MR. SCOTT: I'll ask the usher to please hand you what's been

24 marked as IAC-2, and to save time, I'll also ask that -- these are not in

25 the original bundle, but that Exhibits P101.1 -- I'll stop for the benefit

Page 11683

1 of the Registrar, P101.1 which should be in the stack given to you today,

2 Madam Registrar.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise for bothering you again

6 but I have to draw your attention to the fact that we have asked on a

7 number of occasions that the documents -- if they are given in a binder

8 like this, that we should be forewarned which documents would be used. I

9 cannot carry tonnes of documents every day. I don't have a document

10 IAC-2. I don't have it here and how am I supposed to follow? Why

11 is it so difficult to forewarn us which documents are going to be used?

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I sympathise with you very much. Because

13 we are in the same situation. We do not have those documents at our hands

14 at first. I think as a principle, that we should be previously informed

15 about the documents the Prosecution is going to use. Sometimes, during

16 the cross-examinations, we could not prejudge what kind of document the

17 party will use during their cross-examination. So there are some

18 exceptions.

19 Maybe Mr. Scott can give us a better explanation of that issue.

20 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, IAC-2 was in the bundle that was

21 distributed yesterday. I think it's the last because they were put in

22 numerical order and because there are some documents which have a

23 different prefix such as the presidential transcripts being PT, and IAC,

24 the international armed conflict documents also using the prefix IAC, they

25 were put at the end. It's in the binder, Mr. President. Now that is

Page 11684

1 not -- yes?

2 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry to interrupt you. And you also furnished

3 the documents P101.1 to the Defence counsel?

4 MR. SCOTT: That's what I'm just saying, Your Honour, yes, those

5 two, 101.1 and 101.2 were not in the bundle yesterday they were only

6 prepared over the evening and I've handed them out and provide them to the

7 Registrar in coming into the courtroom today.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, could I offer you a suggestion?

9 MR. SCOTT: Of course.

10 JUDGE LIU: It's time for a break. And I think you may direct the

11 witness to get himself familiar with those documents, then when we come

12 back, you can ask some questions.

13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: So we'll resume at 4.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.28 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just a second, if I

19 may. The Defence is of the position with regard to the practice that we

20 have seen over the past several months in the courtroom, I would like to

21 say that the Defence witnesses did not receive the same treatment as the

22 witnesses for the Prosecution. This witness is here on -- of his own will

23 to help the Court, and if he doesn't cope as well as he may, please do not

24 treat him the way you do. There were witnesses who have refused, who

25 said, "we don't want to answer your questions." They said that to both me

Page 11685

1 and Mr. Seric and they were never warned as to what their duties are.

2 This is what I wanted to say. As politely as I could. Because this is

3 what has been known to happen in this courtroom. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that this witness is an

5 exceptional situation. Because the same question asked by you, yourself,

6 by the Judges and by the Prosecution, for several times, but he did not

7 answer that question. So we have to remind him of his obligation to

8 answer questions and to remind him what was said in Rule 77. The witness

9 has the obligation to answer questions. Earlier this warning was sent out

10 as the last result. We'll try to persuade the witness to answer the

11 question. If he doesn't know the answer, he will answer no. We will take

12 it. There is no problem at all. I hope -- I hope when you are proofing

13 your witness in the future, just remind the future witnesses about this

14 point.

15 Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

16 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I add -- in this

17 same courtroom, the same thing was said also to a number of witnesses for

18 the Prosecution. Witnesses of the Prosecution were also told repeatedly

19 that they had to answer questions. Whenever they seemed reluctant to

20 cooperate properly.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

22 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Q. Witness, before the break, I asked three exhibits to be placed

24 before you. My thanks to the usher. IAC-2, P101.1 and P101.2. And you

25 were present at this meeting on the 12th of November, 1991, in Grude,

Page 11686

1 weren't you, sir? And if it will assist you, you may wish to look at

2 P101.1 and see if you can identify your name on the list of attendees. It

3 may assist in the courtroom, Mr. Usher, if the English version could be

4 put on the ELMO. It may just be easier than -- and for these purposes,

5 Mr. Usher, could you please put the page of -- in the English version, it

6 would be the third page, the third sheet of 101.1, if you could just put

7 that on the ELMO, please?

8 Q. Sir, do you agree that in the list of names and of course I'll ask

9 you to look at the Croatian language version, if you wish, but is that

10 your name at item 17?

11 A. My name is here, and at first glance, this is my signature.

12 Q. And looking at then the text of the document and for these

13 purposes I'll look primarily to IAC-2, and looking at the last page of

14 that document, either again, either the English version last page or the

15 last page of the Croatian version, do you see that those -- that the

16 meeting was chaired and these conclusions were signed by Mate Boban and

17 Dario Kordic?

18 A. Your Honours, I do have this document, and as far as I can see,

19 this document has not been signed either by Mr. Boban or by Mr. Kordic.

20 At least the document that I have in front of me, and as far as I can

21 remember, we always had a professional person taking minutes, so I suppose

22 that my good friend, Jozo Maric, could not have been the person taking

23 minutes. If you do have the document signed by Mr. Mate Boban and

24 Mr. Kordic, we can discuss that document, and this, what I have in front

25 of me is a paper that anybody could have written.

Page 11687

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I just do

3 my job. This document was presented to various witnesses, to Bozo Raic

4 and to Jozo Maric, and this paper as an integral part of this document, so

5 this page was not there -- the page with the signatures, with the

6 names of participants, but it doesn't say anywhere that this is an

7 integral part of this document. This page was not presented before to any

8 of the witnesses. The Defence claims that this page containing signatures

9 is not the -- an integral part of this document. IAC-2.

10 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear what the witness is going to tell us.

11 MR. SCOTT:

12 Q. Let me restate my question, sir. And you're absolutely correct.

13 I should not have used the word signed. What I meant to indicate, this

14 document -- this document indicates that in this meeting, it was chaired

15 by Mr. Boban and Mr. Kordic and these conclusions were prepared over their

16 typed names. I agree they don't bear, at least this document doesn't bear

17 a hand signature but it's over the names of these two leaders of Croatians

18 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct?

19 A. Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Dario Kordic were the leaders of the

20 Croatian policy in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They are my good friends.

21 However, Your Honours, in this document, which is not signed, I don't want

22 to discuss this document, which is not signed, because anybody could have

23 prepared this document. This is not an official document. This is IAC-2,

24 if I'm not mistaken.

25 Q. Sir, did you attend this meeting, as reflected by the signature on

Page 11688

1 P101.1 that I asked you about a moment ago?

2 A. This paper that I have, under item 17, this is my signature at the

3 first glance. However, this paper, this page, is not an integral part of

4 this document that we are discussing, IAC-2. This is a separate page and

5 this can be part of any other documentation or can be attached to any

6 other documentation. Don't, please, attach this paper, this page, to what

7 we are talking about, because I don't have the impression that this is its

8 integral part.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, this point has been pointed out by

10 Defence counsel already. And the Prosecution just asked you a very simple

11 question. Did you attend that meeting or not?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I assume. I can't remember that I

13 was at the meeting on 12 November, 1991.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I again apologise. I

15 have to intervene. Can you please take the English version of IAC-2 and

16 P101.2? And very -- it will be very easy for you to notice that the

17 wording is identical, but in the document, item 1 does not show either

18 Mr. Boban's name or Mr. Kordic's name. How is that possible? Absolutely

19 identical text. So this is one and only document. Identical text, and it

20 is identical in everything but in the person who took the minutes and

21 Mr. Boban and Mr. Kordic, so an identical text --

22 JUDGE CLARK: It's not an identical text, Mr. Krsnik. I looked at

23 it particularly. It is different people writing different conclusions but

24 dealing with the same subject. I looked at it very carefully over the

25 break.

Page 11689

1 MR. KRSNIK: No, incorrect. [Interpretation] In Croatian, Your

2 Honour, no, I wouldn't rise to say no -- The Croatian text is

3 absolutely the same, until the last comma. I don't -- my English is not

4 as good but I believe that I'm right. Maybe we can consult with the

5 interpreters to verify this. The Croatian -- the English text is

6 completely identical. This is exactly my point. Your Honour, you don't

7 seem -- you can't believe that I would say something that is not true?

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, your view has been duly taken by

9 this Trial Chamber.

10 Yes, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have to say just before moving on on

12 that, I don't understand the nature of Mr. Krsnik's objection. In the

13 first paragraph of both 101.1 and IAC-2, unless we are looking at

14 completely different documents, both Mr. Kordic and Mr. Boban are both

15 named in the beginning paragraph of the document. But in any event ...

16 Q. Sir, isn't it true that at this meeting, one of the -- would you

17 consider this a historical meeting leading to the creation of the Croatian

18 Community of Herceg-Bosna, an organisation which you've told us repeatedly

19 now, since Tuesday, you were one of the founders of?

20 A. We held several meetings at which we discussed the organisation

21 and preparations for the constitution of the Croat Community

22 Herceg-Bosna. On the basis of the papers that I have before me, I do not

23 wish to discuss papers which bear no signatures and which may not be

24 official documents because casting a cursory look at the things that are

25 here, there are a number of things that I disagree with.

Page 11690

1 Q. Well, sir, you can look at the documents or not. I'm going to ask

2 you questions about the meeting. And perhaps even the series of

3 meetings. If you don't want to talk about the specific documents, I'll

4 ask you about meetings. Was it not the goal of the HDZ leaders and these

5 Croatian members of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what they -- what you and others

6 wanted to do was to achieve a lifelong and eternal dream, and that was a

7 common Croatian state, Croatian state that extended and included the

8 western part of Bosnia-Herzegovina? That was your objective, wasn't it?

9 A. It does not say so in our platforms and in our plans, and that is

10 not my view. There were individuals in the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in

11 the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna, who held different views and had

12 different suggestions. However, I shall repeat that no document, no

13 decision, in its official part, in the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna and

14 the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, ever broached the subject in this manner.

15 Q. Sir, it was your objective and the outcome of this meeting, one of

16 the conclusions reached in this meeting or, or these series of meetings,

17 was that steps should be taken to proclaim a Croatian banovina in

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct?

19 A. That is not correct, and that is not true. Never, at the HDZ

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina meetings or the meetings of the Croat Community

21 Herceg-Bosna and the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, was there ever a

22 discussion were ever any decisions taken and place don't associate Croat

23 Community Herceg-Bosna and Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna, with the Croatian

24 banovina because these are two different ideas from two different periods

25 of time.

Page 11691

1 Q. Well, I put it to you, sir, and it's the Prosecution case that the

2 Croatian Community Herceg-Bosna was indeed intended and steps were taken

3 to implement that as to create the Croatian banovina and that's the

4 Prosecution case, and I put that to you, sir. Was it not part of the

5 goals of these series of meetings that the final solution would be

6 gathering the Croatian people within the borders of a single, free

7 Croatian state?

8 A. Your Honours, this is what the Prosecutor alleges. I do not agree

9 with that, because that was not in our objectives, our platforms, and we

10 never discussed these matters in this way.

11 Q. Sir, this meeting took place on the 12th of November, 1991, in

12 Grude. Is it not true that six days later, on the 18th of November, 1991,

13 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was proclaimed? The entity that

14 you claim to be a founder of?

15 A. It is true that on the 18th of November, 1991, in Grude, the Croat

16 Community Herceg-Bosna was constituted and organised. You have documents,

17 you have signatures. And what the documents say about the Croat Community

18 Herceg-Bosna, these are our aspirations, these are our positions, rather

19 than what somebody else says and what somebody else alleges. We -- I

20 repeat, under full responsibility, under oath and before this Honourable

21 Court, we saw and see Croat Community Herceg-Bosna and the Croat Republic

22 Herceg-Bosna organised in a democratic way, as I have already said and

23 let's not go back to that.

24 Q. Sir, when did you meet with anyone on behalf of Mr. Naletilic's

25 defence in connection with coming here to testify?

Page 11692

1 A. With regard to the testimony for the accused Naletilic, the

2 Counsel called me and asked me if I would testify. There were some

3 earlier calls and I stood by that. I said that I would testify in this

4 case against Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Martinovic, and everybody else, because

5 I consider myself responsible for the HDZ policies in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

6 by that I mean the official policy of the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna and

7 the Croatian Republic Herceg-Bosna, because I deem that there were no

8 official omissions in our functioning.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, the Prosecutor is asking you about the time.

10 When did you meet with anyone on behalf of Mr. Naletilic's defence, if

11 connection with meeting here to testify. It's just the time. Not the

12 reason.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for that meeting, it was two or

14 three months ago, I think, when the gentleman called me and we agreed that

15 I would come to testify, and I repeat, I will testify in all the cases

16 that deal with this, because I know that.

17 MR. SCOTT:

18 Q. How many times have you met with anyone on behalf of Mr. Naletilic

19 in connection with coming to The Hague to testify?

20 A. I believe we met two or three times for a short time, and that we

21 discussed and agreed on my testimony, and as for the policy and my

22 position with -- in relation to this case that we are discussing now, I

23 don't need Mr. Krsnik or anyone else, because I'm very familiar with all

24 these matters, I'm an active actor, I'm an intellectual, I graduated in

25 law and I feel responsible for the policy of the HDZ and the Croat

Page 11693

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Page 11694

1 Republic Herceg-Bosna. I mean the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina. That is, I

2 do not need anybody's counsel, anybody's advice, anybody's help because I

3 know all there is to know about it.

4 Q. And did you review this document before coming into the courtroom

5 today, this IAC-2 or any other version of a record of the meeting in Grude

6 on the 12th of November, 1991?

7 A. The papers that I have been given, I do not remember having them,

8 even though, perhaps, I do have some at home in my archive, but I

9 certainly have a number of my papers, certain documentation dating back to

10 that time. I do not recall seeing these papers.

11 Q. Have you watched any of the proceedings in this case on

12 television?

13 A. Now and then, I watch television of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now and

14 then I watch the Croatian Television. Now and then I see some fragments

15 from these cases. But specifically, I watched most because that is what

16 was shown on television most, and that was the case against Mr. Milosevic.

17 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, for out of an abundance of caution,

18 could we go to private session for a moment or two?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

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Page 11698

1 [Open session]

2 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, I recognise that 1991 is 11 years ago,

3 and you say that you were at a number of meetings, you recognise that as

4 being your signature but you don't necessarily recall that you were at

5 this meeting in Grude. We'll move on from that. At meetings that you

6 would attend on a regular basis, would it be common for somebody to be a

7 minute-taker?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

9 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, minutes were kept.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Would a minute-taker ever be asked to prepare a

12 document where conclusions are arrived at?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was natural to make an excerpt

14 from the minutes and deliver it to people who were present at the meeting.

15 JUDGE CLARK: That's not the question I asked you. I said would

16 it be normal for the minute-taker who you recognised as a person of fairly

17 low status, would it be normal in your circles for the minute-taker to

18 draw conclusions and prepare a summary for distribution to people who were

19 there? Or not there, as the case may be?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said it. It was the

21 routine and the duty to take -- to recapitulate the minutes, include the

22 conclusions, and deliver it to people who had been present at the meeting,

23 and then those people would discuss it at the next meeting.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, I think everyone here who attends

25 meetings knows that frequently a summary of what happened is prepared and

Page 11699

1 distributed. It is very unusual in my experience for the minute-taker to

2 prepare the summary. Are you saying that where you operated, the

3 minute-taker also prepared a summary? This person of lowly status?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could see from the document, the

5 minute-taker, in agreement with the President or chairman of the body, he

6 prepares the conclusions he drafts the conclusions and delivers them to

7 those present, to those present at the meeting.

8 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, I'm going to ask you the question in

9 very simple terms again. Where you come from, does the lowly person, who

10 is the minute-taker normally prepare a summary with conclusions of what

11 happened at the meeting? Yes or no?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I repeat, in agreement with

13 the president or chairman.

14 JUDGE CLARK: The minutes are one document, and the conclusions

15 are a second document. Is that what you're saying?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Minutes is a book of lasting value,

17 and it is kept in the archive, and an excerpt from the minutes, with the

18 conclusions, is a separate document. That is how it was in our practice

19 and that is how our practice still is.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Do I understand you to say that you don't accept the

21 conclusions that are contained in this document which purports, from the

22 Prosecution point of view, to be a record of a meeting which took place in

23 Grude in November, 1991? Is that what you're saying? That this is not a

24 true document and that the contents are false?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document that I have and it is a

Page 11700

1 document with these black numbers 00624 and 402 and 403, this is not the

2 minutes, this is not a document from the meeting, this is not the document

3 of this meeting. As far as I can know, somebody who read law, who was

4 very active and who is now testifying here under oath.

5 JUDGE CLARK: And are you saying that the contents are

6 fabricated?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say whether that is the

8 case or not. What I am saying is that it is not a true reflection, nor is

9 it a summary of our discussions of our deliberations and conclusions at

10 the meeting.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Are the contents a misrepresentation, are false? Is

12 that what you're saying?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I disagree with the contents of the

14 document. Therefore it was not adopted by our body.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, are you saying that the contents of

16 those documents is a misrepresentation in material facts of what happened

17 at that meeting? Yes or no?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this -- in these minutes, the

19 facts are misrepresented. They are not represented correctly.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Now, what would happen normally when

21 minutes of this meeting or any other meeting were kept and conclusions

22 were arrived at? What would happen to those documents?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat. Documents, minutes, were

24 taken down in a notebook and they are kept, and must be kept, in the

25 archive of the relevant body.

Page 11701

1 JUDGE CLARK: So I take it that you, as a member of the Croatian

2 community would, as a lawyer, have figured out that valid original

3 documents are very important to assist this Tribunal in arriving at the

4 truth.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Original documents are of

6 paramount importance.

7 JUDGE CLARK: And you believe that these original documents exist

8 somewhere, isn't that correct, from your previous testimony?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe they do, because they

10 simply must exist, but where they are, I'm not the leader of the Croat

11 Community Herceg-Bosna, and therefore don't draw me into these details.

12 JUDGE CLARK: Are you in a position in any way to assist the

13 Defence and this Tribunal in seeing the minutes of these meetings?

14 Because it's in the interests especially of Mr. Krsnik's clients and

15 Mr. Seric's client that if documents which you accept as originals are

16 available, that we should see them. Because what you're alleging,

17 Mr. Bender, is that somebody is tampering with the evidence.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where the archive of the Croat

19 Community Herceg-Bosna is, I have no personal knowledge of that, because I

20 was not the front man, the leader of the Croat Community Herceg-Bosna and

21 while the late Boban is not around any more, Mr. Dario Kordic, who was the

22 vice-president, and Mr. Bozo Rajic should know where this archive is. I

23 was specific, wasn't I? And I believe both these persons are available,

24 because they are alive and we would also like to know the truth about this

25 matter.

Page 11702

1 JUDGE CLARK: One last question, Mr. Bender. Is the archive not

2 normally kept in a place which is safe for all citizens of a state rather

3 than kept in the possession of a particular person who was in charge at

4 the time? Are archives not objective and independent documents, which are

5 kept safely for future generations?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are right. The archive is kept

7 in a manner prescribed, and I'm responsible for the archive of the House

8 of Representatives, which is archived and which is kept in the manner

9 prescribed. The official archive cannot be -- cannot be kept, cannot be

10 in the hands of a private person.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Why do you keep asking us to go to Mr. Kordic and to

12 other people, like General Blaskic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I guess they know where the

14 documentation is, of the bodies that they headed. Just as I have said

15 that I knew where the archive of the House of Representatives was, and the

16 secretary.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, not Blaskic but the

18 witness Bozo Rajic, the witness who testified here. You used the wrong

19 last name. Mr. Bender said -- no, no, Bozo Rajic said, and you said

20 General Blaskic.

21 JUDGE CLARK: Earlier today he referred to General Blaskic, not in

22 the last ten minutes, but earlier today this witness referred the

23 Prosecution --

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Earlier, yes, that's true, but now in

25 answer to your question, he said Mr. Bodeso Rajic and Mr. Kordic.

Page 11703

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me clarify it, Your Honour, I

2 said and I will repeat, vice-president of the Croat Community of

3 Herceg-Bosna were Mr. Dario Kordic and Mr. Bozo Rajic, because the

4 president is not alive any longer, and I also mentioned Mr. Blaskic as the

5 leader of the military components of the Croat Defence Council but that

6 was earlier, not right now.

7 JUDGE CLARK: I deliberately referred to your earlier testimony?

8 I said why do you keep referring us to people like Mr. Kordic and

9 Mr. Blaskic when you know that they possible -- can't possibly be the

10 archive keepers, that's the point I was making. I was referring to your

11 earlier testimony. Thanks for answering my questions and I hope I don't

12 have to put you on the spot again.

13 MR. SCOTT:

14 Q. Sir, we will have to move on, of course, but before I do, let me

15 ask you in terms of this, again the preparation of these documents, and

16 the minute-taker or the recorder or what term you might wish to use. You

17 are familiar with a man named Ignac Kostroman, aren't you?

18 A. Yes. I know him personally, Mr. Ignac Kostroman, I know

19 personally.

20 Q. He was the general secretary of the Croatian Community of

21 Herceg-Bosna at the same time that Mr. Boban was president, Mr. Kordic was

22 one of the two vice-presidents, correct?

23 A. I believe that for a while, he was the general secretary or the

24 secretary of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

25 Q. So, sir, if I simply can represent to you at the moment, if there

Page 11704

1 are a substantial number of records of the Herceg-Bosna signed by

2 Mr. Kostroman as the general secretary and keeper of the record of the

3 meetings, you would say, I guess, is it correct, that would be beneath

4 Mr. Kostroman?

5 A. Mr. Kostroman is alive. You can go to him and ask him, and as

6 for -- as far as documents are concerned, I can discuss documents that I

7 have an opportunity to see and study.

8 Q. I'm asking the question to you, sir. Mr. Kostroman signing or

9 preparing minutes and records of meetings, according to you, would be

10 beneath somebody such as Mr. Kostroman; is that right?

11 A. Mr. Kostroman is the secretary, so he is responsible for all the

12 matters that are under his -- the scope of his duties. And that includes

13 the minutes, filing of various documents, together with the leading people

14 of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

15 Q. Sir, I'm going to put it to you one last time and then I will

16 certainly tell the Chamber that I'm going to move on. We put it to you,

17 sir, I know you don't agree, but we put it to you, for instance that

18 Mr. Jozo Maric was involved in this historic meeting and that it would

19 have been in fact a point of honour by someone such as yourself or

20 Mr. Maric or Mr. Kostroman to put their name on such a historic document

21 as this. Isn't that true?

22 A. No. I didn't say that. I said that the minute-taker was not a --

23 at the time, it was not the practice at the time that a minute-taker would

24 be a mayor of any municipality. Mr. Jozo Maric in this particular case

25 was the mayor of Grude and it doesn't make sense that he would be the one

Page 11705

1 to take the minutes, and I can't see his signature here, and Mr. Jozo

2 Maric is alive, and I sincerely hope that it is not too difficult to go to

3 him and ask him.

4 MR. SCOTT: If I could ask the usher to please hand you Exhibit

5 P114? Which is in the bundle, Mr. President. And was previously

6 admitted.

7 Q. Can you tell us, please, sir, who Ivan Markesic was?

8 A. Ivan Markesic -- Ivan Markesic was the general secretary of the

9 Croatian Democratic Union of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He is alive. You can

10 get to him.

11 Q. Sir, my questions are to you and it will not assist us, I submit

12 to you respectfully, to tell us who else might be available. You're in

13 the courtroom and I'm directing my questions to you, sir. What was the

14 role and responsibilities of Mr. Markesic as the general secretary of the

15 HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. During his mandate, while he was the general secretary of HDZ BH,

17 he was in charge of administrative and other affairs in the Croatian

18 Democratic Union of Bosnia and Herzegovina, so he had all the secretarial

19 duties which are described in our statute.

20 Q. Well, would it be part of his duties that this topic take we have

21 been on now for sometime to keep the records and the official documents of

22 the HDZ BiH?

23 A. Yes. He could do that, but I assume that -- that the records were

24 taken by somebody else and then he was the one who assisted with compiling

25 the conclusions and preparing the summary of a particular meeting.

Page 11706

1 Q. Can you tell the Chamber, please, who is Andjelko Stojic?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is Andjelka Stojic and not

3 Andjelko Stojic.

4 MR. SCOTT:

5 Q. My apologies, who is Andjelka Stojic?

6 A. I know Mrs. Stojic, who at that time was not married. She was an

7 employee of the secretariat of the HDZ, BH. She returned -- she had

8 returned from Australia. Highly educated person, speaks foreign

9 languages, and she lives in Stolac.

10 Q. She lived in Stolac. She lives there again? You're speaking in

11 the present tense, she lives in Stolac today or she lived in Stolac at the

12 time or both?

13 A. She still lives in Stolac, because she is married there and her

14 name now is Andjelka Raguz and at this particular time she lived in

15 Sarajevo. I don't know where she was during the war. I can't follow

16 everybody's tracks but currently she resides in Stolac, she is married and

17 she I think has three or four children.

18 Q. Now, sir, if I can direct your attention to -- forgive me --

19 sorry -- page 3? I'm trying to assist you, sir, in making sure, looking

20 at the Croatian version as well. There is a group, there is a list of

21 names that talk about the persons who were involved in the discussion, and

22 in the Croatian version, I believe it's also on the third page, so if you

23 could look at that, please?

24 A. Yes, I can see the list, and I can also see my name.

25 Q. And will you agree with me, sir, that you were at this meeting and

Page 11707

1 that you indeed participated in these discussions?

2 A. I cannot claim that I was or that I wasn't, but I assume that I

3 was at this meeting.

4 Q. Well, why do you assume that?

5 A. Again, it is just a matter of the time that has lapsed and I can't

6 remember all the meetings and all the dates where I was during 1992, and

7 that is exactly the same, that is exactly true of any other person.

8 Q. And sir, that would be true, would it not, then, of all your

9 testimony in direct examination as well? You just don't remember any

10 details of any of these things, do you?

11 A. I remember some things and I don't remember some others. And that

12 is why the Honourable Court is here to discuss things and to arrive at an

13 agreement and I'm under oath, and I just tell you the things that I

14 remember.

15 Q. Sir, at this meeting, and the purpose of this meeting, is it not

16 true, was because the HDZ wanted a different form of the referendum

17 question, correct?

18 A. I said when I was asked by Defence Counsel Krsnik that we did

19 determine at our meeting in Livno the proposal of our question for the

20 referendum and that we submitted to the Republican Assembly of Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina.

22 Q. All right, sir, on page 2, at the bottom part of the half of the

23 page, you will find, I believe, the referendum question as prepared by the

24 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, which states, "Are you in favour --" and

25 the letter or the word "of" appears to be missing I'll just read it

Page 11708

1 literally as it states, "Are you in favour a sovereign and independence

2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a state of equal citizens and peoples, Croats,

3 Muslims, Serbs, and other peoples who live in it?" That was the question

4 as formulated by the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, correct?

5 A. As far as I can remember, I was at this assembly session and more

6 or less this is what was established at the republican assembly session

7 which was held on 24, 25 and 26 January, of 1992, in Sarajevo. And the

8 minutes can be obtained if necessary.

9 Q. And the proposition that the HDZ people as gathered in this

10 meeting which this record tells us there were 147 people in attendance and

11 that 140 of the 147 approved this alternative formulation which says, "Are

12 you in favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, a

13 joint state of the constitutive and sovereign Croatian, Muslim and Serbian

14 peoples, in their ethnic areas or in cantons?" That was the form of the

15 proposition or referendum approved -- referendum approved at this

16 gathering, correct?

17 A. At this particular meeting in Livno we adopted the proposal of the

18 referendum question and as far as I can remember, this is more or less

19 identical to what it says here, but let us look at these two questions.

20 They differ in as much as in the proposal that the HDZ established also

21 refers to the future organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and I don't

22 see anything disputable here.

23 Q. Well, when you added the phrase "after a joint state of the

24 constitutive and sovereign Croatian Muslim and Serbian peoples," in that

25 sentence or that parts of the phrase that says "sovereign" why did this

Page 11709

1 group of people insert the word "sovereign" at that point?

2 A. I believe there is nothing disputable here in terms of the word

3 "constitutive and sovereign peoples" because this is what we have been

4 talking about all the time. This is what we are discussing here, and

5 these words are absolutely acceptable, because our proposal of the

6 question for the referendum, we submitted to the assembly of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina. If you are interested in this, we will go back to that. We

8 will -- I can tell you what -- how we behaved at the referendum and what

9 we did. This was submitted to the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and we

10 have never received an answer to this.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... listen to Judge Clark's

12 questions, please listen to my question.

13 A. Thank you.

14 Q. What did you mean by adding and for what purpose was the phrase

15 "their ethnic areas" why was that added?

16 A. This -- this was the wording of our question because we were

17 talking about the future organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Q. How would these peoples, these three peoples listed here, how was

19 it they would be organised in their ethnic areas?

20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, Your Honours, we still have our counties or

21 cantons, which are organised on the principle of a majority Croat, Muslim

22 or Bosniak population, in the interior of -- in the area of the

23 federation, unfortunately we haven't done that in Republika Srpska.

24 Q.

25 MR. SCOTT: I'd like the usher's assistance please to put before

Page 11710

1 the witness at one time to save time, Exhibit P271 which was a previously

2 admitted exhibit, P-- that's P271, and in the new bundle of documents you

3 should find P239.2, P348, P349. I would also ask to you please put before

4 the witness, I'm sorry, P39.1. There are five. I believe that's a total

5 of five exhibits, please.

6 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you first, please, to direct your attention

7 to P271. Sir, you've told this Chamber in your testimony that you believe

8 or you know, you have some basis for your testimony, for asserting that

9 President Izetbegovic signed this document even though his signature is

10 not reflected here. Do you remember that testimony?

11 A. I remember my testimony. I confirm this, because the late Mate

12 Boban told me, but not only to me, but he said that at a meeting, that

13 both Mr. Izetbegovic and himself adopted -- had adopted and signed this

14 statement. And I hope that there is a document to that effect.

15 Q. Well, that was my question to you, sir. As part of these

16 documents, as part of the HDZ archive, have you ever seen a document that

17 has Mr. Izetbegovic's signature on it? That you can assist us with?

18 A. Personally, I have not seen it, but I believe -- I believe that

19 the late president Mr. Mate Boban, when he said that this had been signed.

20 Q. So just before we move forward, sir, the entire basis for your

21 assertion under oath that Mr. Izetbegovic signed this joint statement,

22 alleged joint statement, is what Mate Boban told you?

23 A. Yes. I believe Mr. Boban because he is a man of honour, whose

24 word is his bond, and we were good friends.

25 Q. Now, sir, if you'll direct your attention -- I'm only focusing you

Page 11711

1 this so I can put some additional questions to you but paragraph 3 of

2 Exhibit 271, the latter part of that section or paragraph 3 says, "And in

3 the provinces 3, 8 and 10, under the command of the general staff of the

4 HVO" and I'm sorry I should have backed up to say, "The armed forces of

5 the HVO and the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina," then skipping back to what I

6 just referred you to, "In the provinces 3, 8 and 10 would be placed under

7 the command or were to be placed under the command of the general staff of

8 the HVO."

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I waited for us to move

11 on. Is it not the time to ask the Prosecutor how did this document -- how

12 come that this document, with something added on top of the document,

13 "Boban's proposal," it is? And the previous document that I had been

14 given, lacks that addition by hand? I waited until the end of the

15 question. I didn't want to interrupt. This is the same document. One of

16 them has an addition by hand. That's what you have in your binder. A

17 previously, we had received the same document without the words added by

18 hand. Who was it who added these words by hand?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott, could you give us an explanation?

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, Exhibit P271, that we have in our

21 binder, and I will ask the usher's assistance, the Registrar's assistance,

22 Exhibit P271 has that on the top of the document.

23 JUDGE LIU: I understand this document has already been admitted.

24 MR. SCOTT: That's correct.

25 JUDGE LIU: In your case-in-chief.

Page 11712

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11713

1 MR. SCOTT: That's correct.

2 JUDGE LIU: And when we adopted -- admitted that document, you

3 mean that those words were there.

4 MR. SCOTT: Well, subject to verification by the Registrar, Your

5 Honour, that's my understanding. Yes, I can see it from here. It's on

6 the document. The words -- the items that Mr. Krsnik say were not on the

7 document are on the document as tendered and as previously admitted by

8 this Chamber.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, there should be no problem on that.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I really -- it's beyond me. This is

11 what I received from the Prosecutor, and it does not contain the words

12 "Boban's proposal." So this is really beyond me. I don't understand

13 what the matter may be here because this is the document that I prepared,

14 and that I took from the binder that I had received. And last night, when

15 I was checking my documents, I actually used this document in my direct

16 examination, and I immediately I noticed the difference because this is

17 the document, the one that I have, that I used in my examination of

18 Mr. Bender.

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think we should be governed by the

20 official records of the Court kept by the Registrar. I think that

21 resolves the question.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we have noticed that point that you

23 made on this very issue. And we -- when we are evaluating those

24 documents, we will take it into consideration. Yes, Mr. Scott, you may

25 proceed.

Page 11714

1 MR. SCOTT:

2 Q. Sir, I simply want to explain to you and to the Chamber now in

3 directing your attention to 2.39.2 -- sorry, excuse me, Your Honour.

4 Mr. President, what I'd like to do and I do this so everyone in the

5 courtroom will know what I'm referring to. In 239.1, which is also

6 previously admitted in evidence, on page -- using the original page

7 numbers that were at one point put on the UN document, if the Chamber

8 could

9 find page 2 and the others could find page 280, toward the very back,

10 almost at the back of the document, page 280?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me, Mr. Scott, do you mean P239.2?

12 MR. SCOTT: At the moment, I mean 239.1, the original document

13 which was in the binders and which was admitted -- perhaps for ease of

14 reference for the courtroom, Mr. Usher, if you could put page 280 on the

15 ELMO? And I'm particularly interested in the technical booth assisting us

16 by focusing on item E, "Withdrawal of forces." Please zoom in on that as

17 much as you can. Now, Mr. President, you will see that what we have done

18 in 239.2 is simply take that part, subsection, and to assist and to comply

19 with the Chamber's practice and to assist the witness I've had several of

20 these particular provisions translated and which are attached.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I hope in the future, you could make some notes

22 before this document, that is 239.2, so that we could easily found out

23 those excerpts, those parts of that document you produced to facilitate

24 the proceedings.

25 MR. SCOTT: Well, Your Honour, on our list you'll note P239.2,

Page 11715

1 excerpt of P239.1. So we have attempted to do that.

2 Q. Now, sir, I'd like you -- and you can look at the Serbo-Croatian

3 version that's attached, I'm looking at subsection called E, "Withdrawal

4 of forces." You can look at that. I will refer to the English version.

5 Sir, does it not say, "Sarajevo province shall be immediately

6 demilitarised, all Serb forces shall withdraw in provinces 2, 4 and 6;

7 HVO forces into province 3; Bosnian army forces into province 1. Both

8 Bosnian army and HVO forces shall be deployed in provinces 5, 8, 9 and 10,

9 under arrangements agreed between them." Now, I want to you look at that,

10 sir, and since you say that you're knowledgeable of these things and that

11 you say that you know that Mr. Izetbegovic supposedly signed this

12 document, can you tell me, sir, where in section E, which was signed --

13 which indeed was signed by Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban on the 25th of

14 March, 1993, as reflected in the UN Security Council documents, where in

15 that provision does it say that the provinces -- that the forces of the

16 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina will be placed under HVO command in provinces

17 3, 8 and 10?

18 A. The fact is that these two documents are not identical, that the

19 wording is different, but please don't involve me in any military contexts

20 or structures, I'm not a military expert. I only said that I remember,

21 this is exactly what I said to counsel Krsnik, that I do remember this

22 joint statement and I'm just conveying the words of Mr. Boban. Personally

23 I don't know what the matter was. But I'm just conveying what was said to

24 me, that Mr. Mate Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic signed this joint statement

25 that we are referring to.

Page 11716

1 Q. I'm putting to you, sir, that [Microphone not activated]

2 Translation continues] ... did not sign it, but supporting a proposition,

3 putting the armed forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina under the command of the

4 HVO, when that was exactly contrary or not supported at all in the

5 document that he had indeed did sign on the 28th of March? And my

6 question is, you've told us you're a trained man, you're an intellectual,

7 you're a lawyer, so please look at the language of E, "Withdrawal of

8 forces," and tell me what support you find in that provision for Mate

9 Boban's statement in paragraph 3?

10 A. I have said that these two texts are not identical, that they are

11 very different, but I stand by my statement that was told me by Mr. Boban,

12 and as for the withdrawal of forces in item E, I repeat I'm not a military

13 expert, I'm not a military man, so don't put me into the army. I'm a

14 politician, a lawyer, and ask me about that.

15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see the time and it's probably the

16 break time.

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I once again waited for

20 the end of the question, but again, there was a misrepresentation, because

21 it says clearly that in provinces 5, 8 and 9 and 10, under arrangements

22 agreed between them, that is the HVO and the BH Army. It says agreed

23 between them. So it was left to them to reach an agreement about it. And

24 this was done on the 2nd of April. I merely waited for the Prosecutor to

25 finish because I didn't want to be cautioned once again.

Page 11717

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your explanation on those

2 documents. Yes, Mr. Scott.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I won't follow up now. The Chamber wants

4 to take a break. I'll come back to it after the break.

5 JUDGE LIU: Could I know how long are you going to take for your

6 cross-examination? Are we going to finish the testimony of this witness

7 today?

8 MR. SCOTT: Well, we will finish the cross -- yes, Your Honour, I

9 believe so. I can finish the cross examination, I think, before 7.00, but

10 how long the other questions may be of course I can't predict. I will

11 finish my cross-examination today.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, and leave us sometime to ask questions.

13 MR. SCOTT: I will, Your Honour. I will.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00

15 --- Recess taken at 5.18 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I apologise but I

19 wish to indicate some other problems that have to do with the translation

20 or interpretation? I did not pay attention that the transcript said that

21 Mr. Bender was a lawyer.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But he is not a lawyer. I asked my

24 colleagues who live in the United States and speak Croatian what do you

25 call a man who graduates from law? What kind of a title does he have in

Page 11718

1 and he told me that the closest would be to the European spirit of

2 language is JD, jurisprudence doctor, but that in the States, they can

3 also call them lawyers, but they are not barristers. When we say a

4 graduated lawyer in Croatia we mean a man who read and graduated from

5 law. And that is what Mr. Bender said. He did not say that he was a

6 barrister. He is not an advocate. He is a lawyer.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, the points here is not whether the

8 witness is a lawyer or not. The problem is that we were told that during

9 the break, the witness talked to your client. I believe it is your

10 obligation to inform your witness beforehand, "Don't talk to anybody."

11 Including your client, when he was still under the oath. This is for the

12 future witnesses.

13 Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

14 JUDGE CLARK: Just on a point of information, Mr. Krsnik, our

15 country is also part of Europe and we would make a distinction between a

16 lawyer who would either be a solicitor or a barrister and a law graduate

17 and when you say somebody is a law graduate, you mean he's using his law

18 degree to assist him in business or whatever, but that he's not a lawyer.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The witness is not here. I thought

20 that you were part of the legal system of -- Anglo-Saxon law, in which you

21 are barristers and solicitors and I thought that you had three degrees,

22 law graduate, solicitor, barrister. I know that it is accessible to you

23 but I was just told that he is not an advocate. He is not a solicitor or

24 barrister and then I asked how it was in America and I found out how they

25 do these things. But thank you.

Page 11719

1 JUDGE CLARK: I think in America they are usually called corporate

2 lawyers. In other words they never set foot in court.

3 MR. SCOTT: We don't consider them real lawyers, Judge Clark.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

5 MR. SCOTT:

6 Q. Sir, before moving off this topic, I would like you to look at

7 Exhibit -- and really you can look at either one that suits you -- 349 --

8 actually I take that back, I think for your purposes, sir, you would look

9 at P348, the back of which you will find a Croatian version. I would

10 suggest to the Chamber that just because the legibility of the two

11 documents, the English version, P349, the last page of that exhibit is I

12 think more legible. I represent to the Chamber that the text is identical

13 and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong. At the back of page --

14 Exhibit P348 there is a Serbo-Croatian version of the document.

15 Now, sir, I just want to ask you, would you look at that last

16 page, it is an attachment to this joint statement, indeed again this one

17 bearing the signature of Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban and others, on the

18 25th of April, two weeks later, and I'll just ask you to scan your eyes

19 please down paragraphs 1 through 5, and I ask you again, is there anything

20 in that statement which supports Mr. Boban's -- we put it to you,

21 "ultimatum" that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina subordinate itself to the

22 HVO?

23 A. Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, I do not see here -- I'm not a

24 military expert, I do not know what Mr. Boban's "ultimatum" you're

25 referring to.

Page 11720

1 Q. Well, sir, doesn't -- I'll move on very quickly but in the

2 document I just showed you and directed your attention to paragraph

3 number 1. I'm not going to take the time to read the whole thing but

4 doesn't that make it very clear that the BiH Army, and I'm is simply using

5 the terms in the document, that the BiH Army and the HVO will retain their

6 separate identities and command structures?

7 A. You read it correctly, but once again, army, that is not my

8 field. I am not a military expert. Mr. Milivoj Petkovic is alive.

9 Mr. Sefer Halilovic is alive, so call them and clear the matter up with

10 them.

11 Q. Sir, I'm only asking because you've testified under oath that you

12 believe and have asserted as a fact to this Chamber that Mr. Izetbegovic

13 signed the document dated 2nd April, 1993, marked as P271, and I put it to

14 you, sir, that the documents that indeed he did sign, which I've shown to

15 you this afternoon, provide no support for the ultimatum issued by

16 Mr. Boban. Now, that's true, isn't it?

17 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did not mention any ultimatum, the joint

18 statement that we talked about of the 2nd of April, I said that not only

19 I, but a number of us were informed, that Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Mate

20 Boban had signed that joint statement. I do not wish to change it because

21 there, is nothing to change. And as for this, I do not really know what

22 Mr. Petkovic and Mr. Halilovic signed. They are here. Call them and

23 clear it up.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, I was also

Page 11721

1 waiting for the end. There is a document, it's once again misrepresented

2 and I believe we have agreed that this may not be done in

3 cross-examination. Because this joint statement that is before us and

4 that you have states clearly, in which provinces will the forces be

5 subordinated to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and which to the HVO. And

6 they also undertake to form the joint command by the 15th of April and all

7 that pursuant to Vance-Owen Plan and it all says nicely here. Then why is

8 a document misinterpreted and why is Mr. Boban's "ultimatum"? No Boban's

9 "ultimatum" is mentioned but it says after the conclusion of the

10 Vance-Owen Peace Plan, Alija Izetbegovic and Mate Boban, I agree, pending

11 full demilitarisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina as envisioned by the peace

12 plan and with a view to more efficient defence against the aggression --

13 I'm sorry. The armed forces of the HVO in provinces 1, 5 and 9 are being

14 placed under the command of the general staff of the army of BH. And in

15 the provinces 3, 8 and 10 under the command of the general staff of the

16 HVO.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, whatever is said in this document,

18 we can read by ourselves. And I think your witness has answered the

19 question put by the Prosecutor.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, but please

21 instruct me, one may not misinterpret and thus mislead the witness. There

22 is no trace of Boban's "ultimatum" and therefore a document is

23 misrepresented to him and he's asked to answer. Then it would be fair to

24 let him read it through, all the items, and then for the Prosecutor to ask

25 him a question rather than misleading completely and putting to him things

Page 11722

1 that these documents don't say. It's not fair.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, in this case, I don't think it's

3 misleading. Your witness could answer that question according to his own

4 knowledge.

5 Yes, Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, just to be clear I put all those

7 documents in front of the witness, gave him time, asked him to look at

8 them, and I put the Prosecution's case to him.

9 Q. Sir, are you familiar with an organisation called the association

10 of volunteers and veterans of the homeland war?

11 A. Yes, I am aware of that institution in our territory.

12 Q. Do you remember attending the first regular session of that

13 association?

14 A. I can't remember whether I attended meetings of this association,

15 because we had quite a number of such associations. So I cannot really

16 confirm that I was present.

17 Q. Well, do you remember attending the first regular session of this

18 association along with the following persons, Mr. Miro Grabovac, Dario

19 Kordic, Tihomir Blaskic, Jadranko Prlic, Vladimir Suljic and Tomislav

20 Mercep?

21 A. I've heard of those people but I do not remember that I attended a

22 joint meeting with them, so that I cannot confirm that I was at that

23 meeting.

24 Q. Do you know, sir, that a man named Ivan Andabak is the president

25 of that -- something part of that organisation called the "court of

Page 11723

1 honour"?

2 A. Sorry, could I have the transcript back on the screen? I don't

3 have the text on the screen. Please. Could the Prosecutor repeat the

4 question?

5 Q. Of course. Are you familiar, sir, or are you aware of the fact

6 that a man named Ivan Andabak is indicated as the president of the

7 "court of honour" of that organisation, whatever that might be?

8 A. I do not know how this organisation -- how this association is

9 organised. I've heard about Mr. Andabak. However, what office, what

10 duties he discharges in that association, I do not know.

11 Q. I'll ask to you look at Exhibit P927 -- it should be in the bundle

12 of documents, it's either -- it may have been distributed, Madam

13 Registrar, I'm not sure if it was today or yesterday, I may have given it

14 to the usher. If it wasn't yesterday, then it may have been -- thank you

15 very much. P927.

16 Sir, I represent to you and for the record that what I put to

17 you comes from a publication called Obrana [phoen] Herceg-Bosna written by

18 Karlo Ratim [phoen], in Siroki Brijeg, published in 1997. You can look at

19 the Croatian version if it will assist you. If I can direct you to look

20 at the paragraph on page -- of the Croatian version, 609, and the

21 paragraph of text immediately above the table 6.2.1? If you look at that

22 for a moment, sir, does that assist your memory at all in attending that

23 first regular session of that organisation?

24 A. I can see that the paper said so, that Ivan Bender was present,

25 yes, it does say so, but I cannot confirm it. Because this is a book, I'm

Page 11724

1 aware of its existence, I'm aware that it was published but it need not

2 be reliable. I cannot remember that I was present at the meeting.

3 Q. Do you know, sir, and can you assist the Chamber in confirming,

4 that one of the accused in this case, Mladen Naletilic, also known as

5 Tuta, is the lifelong honorary head or chairman of that organisation?

6 A. I've heard that the members of the association elected Mr. Mladen

7 Naletilic to that office. If they did that in a democratic way, then I

8 have no problem with that.

9 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the situation where much of the

10 international community considers the association of volunteers and

11 veterans of the homeland war to be one of the most anti-Dayton

12 organisations in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. What the international community thinks or representatives of

14 international community think in relation to this association is not

15 something that I am aware of, but this association exists in the lands of

16 the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is Bosnia and Herzegovina. It

17 has its leadership and if my memory serves me well, the organisation is

18 headed by Mr. Miro Grabovac, so you can communicate with him and talk with

19 him.

20 Q. Do you know, sir, whether, since Mr. Naletilic has been in

21 detention in The Hague, does he continue to be the lifelong honorary

22 chairman of this organisation?

23 A. Well, don't ask me that. Ask members of the association. And ask

24 its president, Mr. Miro Grabovac. I do not know that. That is not within

25 my jurisdiction.

Page 11725

1 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Bender, you were asked did you know, and you can

2 say, "No, I don't know" or "yes, I do know." Don't ask the Prosecution to

3 ask someone else. You can answer whether you know or not.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said it clearly, I do

5 not know, and I also said where that information could be obtained. I am

6 not aware of that fact, that is that information.

7 MR. SCOTT:

8 Q. Sir, are you aware of the fact that in about early April, 2001,

9 the international community, through both the Office of the High

10 Representative and through the stabilization forces of the United

11 Nations --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, so far, I never

14 objected to any Prosecutor's question when he tried to challenge the

15 credibility. But does this Honourable Court and the Defence really

16 believe that the implementation of the Dayton Peace Accords is a -- within

17 the terms of reference of this Tribunal? Is it the responsibility of this

18 Tribunal? What kind of a question is it? We have the indictment. I

19 never raised that matter before. We are speaking -- spending 80 per cent

20 of the time talking about post-Dayton Bosnia, who is pro, who is

21 anti-Dayton and so on and so forth. And what do they said to prove this?

22 Bosnia was definitively divided in Dayton and it's going through its

23 post-Dayton period of time and crisis and experience in this way are

24 another. And what does this have to do with this Chamber or this Tribunal

25 and what is the relevance of all these things? Why do we have to listen

Page 11726

1 to that hour after hour?

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, the Prosecution has not finished his

3 question. Let him finish that question. And your remarks have been noted

4 by us.

5 Yes, Mr. Scott.

6 MR. SCOTT:

7 Q. Sir, are you aware that in early April, 2001, representatives of

8 the office of the high representative and of SFOR conducted an

9 investigation of a bank in Bosnia-Herzegovina called the Hercegovacka Bank

10 [phoen], with its main office in Mostar, but also offices in Grude in

11 which there was violent resistance to this investigation, and in fact a

12 number of people, representatives of the international community, were

13 injured?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I object to this, for the record.

16 Your Honours, it is an incident unheard of in the civilisation, in the

17 modern history of the world, of the whole globe, I do not know who did the

18 Prosecutor learn about it, where did he get the information and positions

19 that he's voicing here, that he's referring to, when a private institution

20 was robbed and to this day, the proceedings have not been completed,

21 because of this act which was committed, and what does that have to do

22 with this case, and this witness?

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, that's exactly the question we want to know.

24 Yes, Mr. Scott?

25 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I asked the Chamber to take notice of

Page 11727

1 the word that Mr. Krsnik just used, when the bank was robbed. It was an

2 action, an operation carried out by the office of the high representative

3 and SFOR, under the authority of the Dayton peace accords.

4 MR. SCOTT:

5 Q. Sir, you were familiar with that fact and in fact, didn't you

6 appear when some of these events were happening in Grude at the branch of

7 the bank in Grude, after the events were over, you said "the

8 international community has been defeated"?

9 A. It is regrettable that the Prosecutor is not telling the truth.

10 What the Prosecutor said is not true. The press, and some

11 representatives, did say that, but it was denied. And I claim under full

12 responsibility that on that day, the 6th of April, 1991, I was not in

13 Grude for the whole 24 hours. I was in my office in Mostar, in the

14 administration for pensions and pension insurance and social welfare. I

15 am surprised that the Prosecutor resorts to such insinuations and

16 attributes them to me. And as for the breaking of the SFOR forces in

17 their tanks into a bank, I claim under full responsibility that it was

18 not done in a regular manner, and to avoid any misunderstanding, on the

19 6th of April, at this time, at that time, throughout, I was in Mostar all

20 day long. I never -- I never set my foot in Grude. The Prosecutor is not

21 telling the truth.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, the question asked by the Prosecutor is

23 after the events were over, you said that "the international community has

24 been defeated." Did you say that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is not true. I was not in

Page 11728

1 Grude. I did not say that. These are not my words.

2 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I have to finish and I'll go on. I put

3 the question to the witness and I'll just go on.

4 Q. Could I ask the witness please be provided -- and these are my

5 last set of questions, exhibits -- in the interests of time, both PT 33,

6 presidential transcript number 33 and presidential transcript number 35,

7 which I'll only touch on briefly. I suggest that the easiest way of

8 dealing with this material in the English material, Mr. President, is just

9 to put it on the ELMO.

10 Q. Sir, I'd first like to address your attention as we are assembling

11 this material -- I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you don't have it. If I can first

12 ask you to look at Exhibit PT35? Which I will state, is a record of a

13 meeting at the offices of the President Franjo Tudjman of Croatia on the

14 24th of November, 1995, I only have one question about this document --

15 well, two. Now, sir, you can scan your eyes down through the document if

16 you wish but I will represent to you, sir, can you confirm that you were

17 in attendance at this meeting in the offices of the president on the 24th

18 of November, 1995?

19 A. If this is 24 November, 1995, I could not have attended that

20 meeting. I already said that, because on that day, I was visiting a good

21 friend of mine in Dubrovnik. I remember the date very well. It was on

22 the 24th November, 1995.

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask if we could have

Page 11729

1 the Croatian original on the ELMO so that we can establish the date,

2 because this -- you can't see on the transcript, it could be 1995 or 1996,

3 because somebody subsequently corrected the figure. If you don't have the

4 Croatian original, can we put it on the ELMO so you can actually see it

5 for yourself because you can't actually tell the year when the meeting was

6 held. If the Prosecutor alleges the meeting was held in 1995, okay, I

7 will agree to that.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Scott?

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, this is the form -- I can only

10 represent this is the form in which the document was received, through the

11 channels that you're familiar with.

12 Q. Sir, you've said yesterday that, I believe I'm almost reminded

13 from the context of the events of the discussion, we would submit, Your

14 Honours, would indicate, 1995. Sir, yesterday, one of the things you told

15 Mr. Krsnik was that these transcripts could not possibly -- could not be

16 accurate because they did not reflect your style and manner of speaking

17 and one of the things you objected to was that the length of the

18 statements or passages attributed to you. Do you remember that? Do you

19 remember that, sir?

20 A. We discussed all of these transcripts, and I made a note for my

21 own information, that there were five of them, and in agreement with

22 Honourable Court, I had the opportunity to look at them in my hotel room,

23 and I confirm that what I said was correct, and as far as this transcript

24 goes, I don't know whether this was the year 1995 or 1996. If it was

25 1995, I said, and I repeat, I will stick to my statement, that as far as I

Page 11730

1 can remember, the meetings with President Tudjman, they were always very

2 short and clear, because there was not a very much on the agenda, not very

3 much to discuss. It was just to receive information and go back to the HZ

4 HB or HR HB and deal with the issues.

5 Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that one of the reasons that you

6 asserted that this could not be authentic is the length of the comments

7 attributed to you. In fact, sir, isn't it true you had quite the

8 reputation for making quite long remarks, didn't you?

9 A. That is what you say. I haven't heard that, as a person with a

10 degree in law, there is no need for me to go at length. Mathematics is

11 also one of my professions, so if we sort of join together mathematics and

12 law this is what we receive and this is, I believe that I behave in this

13 manner.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Bender, of course the Chamber will be able to make its

15 own assessment of the length of your answers and responses as well, but

16 let me direct your attention, please, to, in your version, page -- and I'm

17 going to refer to page, sir, that are in the upper right corner in the

18 Croatian version, if you could please find page R0159369? And for the

19 English readers, in Exhibit P35, if I can direct you please to the same

20 page reference to R010416? If the English version could be put on the

21 ELMO, Mr. Usher, the last four digits being 0416.

22 Q. Sir, is it not correct that at that -- during that meeting and

23 you're indicated as the next speaker after this passage, in fact, that

24 Gojko Susak, the minister said, "Mr. President today I drew the conclusion

25 since there was a meeting with you in a very serious tone when we went to

Page 11731

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 11732

1 lunch I said to everyone present that they have to learn from Bender what

2 it means to be a politician to speak for half an hour and not say

3 anything. And they all had a good laugh, you know, and then, after lunch

4 we came back and he asked for the floor. And said the same thing in a

5 different way and confirmed that he's the greatest politician among them.

6 He's asking for the floor." Next entry, Ivan Bender,

7 "Mr. President I'd like to try to refute what our minister said."

8 Now, sir, you had quite the reputation for making long remarks,

9 didn't you?

10 A. This is what you claim. I can't confirm that. This is indeed

11 what it says here, but what is under the name Ivan Bender, does not

12 correspond to my way of work, primarily, as a person with all the personal

13 traits that I have, I cannot refer to the late minister Susak as "our

14 minister." Our defence minister at the time was Vladimir Soljic, and I

15 know Vladimir very well.

16 Q. Sir, I put it to you, you used the term "our minister" quite

17 deliberately and that in fact shows exactly what your state of mind was in

18 November, 1995.

19 A. You can claim that but I cannot accept that, and I deny that

20 energetically and I stick to my claim. At that time our defence minister

21 was Vladimir Suljic and the late minister Gojko Susak was the minister in

22 the government of the Republic of Croatia. So these are two different

23 posts and two different persons.

24 Q. Can I ask to you look at Exhibit PT33, please, the next

25 transcript?

Page 11733

1 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I am making an effort and this is my

2 last series of questions.

3 Q. Sir, do you recall being at a meeting in the offices of Franjo

4 Tudjman on the 27th of March, 1995? Along with a delegation from

5 Herceg-Bosna, Dario Kordic, Jadranko Prlic, Pero Markovic, Bozo Raic, Jozo

6 Maric? Do you remember being in a meeting with all those people, with

7 President Tudjman?

8 A. There were a number of meetings, I've already said that, and if my

9 memory serves me well, it is to be assumed that I was in this meeting on

10 the 27th March, 1995.

11 Q. Sir, isn't it true that you and the attendees at this meeting,

12 including Franjo Tudjman, knew that the establishment of cantons under the

13 Washington Agreement presented problems for the HDZ cause because they

14 would be based on parity and not on HVO control?

15 A. The establishment of counties, i.e. cantons in our area in the

16 area of the federation, had and still presented -- and still presents a

17 lot of problems. But we have been dealing with these problems and these

18 are for a while now have been functioning as they should.

19 Q. Sir, you knew, and it was discussed in this meeting that the

20 cantons were a problem and in fact they were directly contrary to the

21 whole concept and purpose of the Croatian community and later the Croatian

22 Republic of Herceg-Bosna, weren't they?

23 A. This is what you claim. I cannot confirm your claim, because --

24 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... attention please to page 8572

25 in your Croatian version, please look at the last four digits, the

Page 11734

1 number that's in the upper right corner of the pages, sir, 8572.

2 MR. SCOTT: And Mr. Usher, if you could please put on the ELMO in

3 the English version the last four digits would be 0327. The English

4 version, please, Mr. Usher, 0327. If I could have the technical booth

5 with the paragraph with the words starting, "We have reached a critical,"

6 if you can zoom in on the upper right corner of the document now? That's

7 fine. But if the technical booth can close in on that a bit? All right.

8 That's fine. Well, I'd like everyone to be able to read it as much as

9 possible of course.

10 Q. Sir, did President Tudjman not say, sir, "We have reached a

11 critical point" -- my apology, I believe this is Dario Kordic speaking,

12 "We have reached a critical point when even this leadership, that has

13 come, finds it difficult to make the right moves certainly not without

14 your help and the support of the Croatian people. So we think that the

15 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna should be a guarantee of the survival of

16 the Croatian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina but there are some

17 contradictions and defeatism is spreading amongst the people." Because of

18 time, sir, I'm going to skip down a few lines. When Mr. Kordic goes on to

19 talk about the problems presented, in the next paragraph, "It is important

20 that we do our part and in so doing show the international community what

21 we have done, above all in the cantons with parity, based on the 1990

22 electoral results. We clearly have some problems here because the

23 parity-based contents -- cantons," my apology, "... the parity based

24 cantons bring the very position of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna

25 into question."

Page 11735

1 Do you remember discussing that?

2 A. You have read something, but I don't have that, this text. Your

3 Honour.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we don't have it either.

5 I don't want to intervene but on the page the Prosecutor has mentioned and

6 page 572, I don't see that there is no this text. I don't see it.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Usher, please make sure that the witness has

8 that document. How about the B/C/S version?

9 JUDGE CLARK: Are you saying you don't have it in Croatian.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] Yes.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Because it's here in English.

12 MR. KRSNIK: It's in English but in B/C/S it doesn't have what the

13 Prosecutor is reading.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I have in Croatian is not what

15 the Prosecutor has just read.

16 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, give me a moment, I'll see if I can

17 sort it out.

18 Q. Sir, if you'll look at page, if you'll find, please, page, the

19 last four digits, 8572, and in the upper left corner of the Croatian

20 version, there is the other, additional markings, a 2/1, and then the

21 initials LJ. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I have this page. It's in front of me.

23 Q. Now, at the top of that page, sir, do you not see, and it may be

24 that it starts on the previous page, but do you not see the part of the

25 passage that I just read to you? Look at page, I'm sorry, I'm trying to

Page 11736

1 move quickly. Would you look at the previous page then 8571, sir? And I

2 suggest to you you'll find the words there.

3 A. Can you please repeat one passage so that I can see where I am on

4 this page?

5 Q. The part that I direct your attention to started with this,

6 attributed to Mr. Kordic, if you want to look you can even look back a

7 page earlier to 8570 and you will see where Mr. Kordic begins speaking and

8 continuing over in the Croatian version, to page --

9 A. I have that text.

10 Q. Thank you. Wasn't it discussed, sir, at this meeting that you and

11 Dario Kordic and Jozo Maric and Bozo Raic and Franjo Tudjman were at,

12 wasn't it discussed that this was a problem because the parity-based --

13 I'm quoting now that because the parity based cantons bring the very

14 position of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna into question?

15 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you mentioned a name, Bozo Maric. I don't recall

16 that person, such a person was never among us, and as far as Mr. Dario

17 Kordic's words, I can't remember what he was talking about. The man is

18 alive. Ask him.

19 Q. Sir, we've done this all afternoon, sir. I'm asking you. Isn't

20 it true that you're at this meeting, which must have some moment for you,

21 you're meeting with the president, sitting president, of the Republic of

22 Croatia, and you do not remember talking about this and that this present

23 and serious problem for you, for the very project, the very project we put

24 to you, that you'd been so closely involved in since 1991? And it was at

25 risk because the cantons under Dayton or under Washington excuse me, would

Page 11737

1 be based on parity?

2 A. I said the things that I don't want to repeat. We attended

3 several meetings in the offices of the President of Croatia, Dr. Tudjman,

4 who informed us and, so to say, gave us his opinion about the overall

5 situation. There were problems with the organisation of counties but we

6 solved them and it functioned. So that we, the Croats, and Bosniaks in

7 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina have agreed on the -- on these

8 things, and we enforce the Dayton Accords. We constituted the counties --

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... I have to finish. Sir, isn't

10 it true that Franjo Tudjman expressed in this meeting that he would have

11 preferred three -- a union of three republics, being a Croat Republic, a

12 Serb Republic and a Muslim republic, and in fact that's the position that

13 you would have preferred, isn't it?

14 A. What the President Tudjman said I can't remember. And what I

15 would prefer or what somebody else would prefer, we can discuss that but

16 the fact is what we did officially and what we adopted officially, the

17 Dayton Accord and its implementation is something that both the Croatian

18 community and the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and federation did

19 together and implemented together.

20 Q. Sir, I'm going to ask you to look in your Croatian version at

21 page 8628 using the numbers that we have been using.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly I would

24 still like to find out, to see where the Prosecutor found the previous

25 text that he read in English. I'm still trying to find it in Croatian and

Page 11738

1 I can't find it.

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I took the witness right to it and no, I

3 don't speak, regrettably, Serbo-Croatian, I think I can say with

4 confidence I took the witness right to it and the witness found it. The

5 witness found it.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, could we solve this issue after the

7 Court? Because we have passed this period.

8 MR. SCOTT:

9 Q. Sir, I want you to look now, please, at 8628.

10 MR. SCOTT: And Mr. Usher, if you could put on the ELMO, in the

11 English version, 0378? The bottom of that page, please, 0378.

12 Q. Sir, toward the bottom, in that section attributed to President

13 Franjo Tudjman and in the English, I can only say in the English version

14 toward the bottom of page 378, did not Mr. Tudjman say -- President

15 Tudjman say, "And I said that if it had been possible to implement that

16 agreement on the union of three republics, that would have been the best

17 for the Croatian state in the present historical circumstances but the

18 western world did not accept that." Now, do you remember that statement?

19 A. I can't remember these words, and this statement, because it was a

20 long time ago. We had a number of meetings. My memory and, so to say, my

21 modest brain cannot recall all these things. So I cannot confirm these

22 words that the Prosecutor has just mentioned.

23 Q. Sir, isn't it correct that President Tudjman and the others, in

24 fact, in terms of any settlement, you didn't want parts of Bosnia that

25 would have more Muslims and more Serbs, correct?

Page 11739

1 A. This is not correct. I don't know where you got these words from,

2 where you got these facts from.

3 Q. Well, perhaps you'd like to look at page 8630 in the Croatian

4 version, 86 -- beginning at 8630, continuing to 31.

5 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher, if you could put 0380 on the ELMO?

6 Q. Do you have page 8630, sir?

7 A. I have it in front of me. Go ahead.

8 Q. Did not President Tudjman say, "What does integral Bosnia mean?

9 Who will take us to the Drina? And besides, even if we could get to the

10 Drina, what if we get an integral Bosnia with 2 million Serbs and 2

11 million Muslims what kinds of Croatia would that be? That would be even

12 worse, the Croatian people would be even worse off than in Tito's

13 Yugoslavia." Isn't that what he said, sir?

14 A. This is what is written but I can't confirm that these are the

15 words of the president of the Republic of Croatia, and the president of

16 HDZ Croatia, Dr. Tudjman. If you have the recording of this, can you

17 please --

18 Q. Sir, I'll ask you the questions.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I cannot keep quiet. I made a note

22 of the page, and if I have the time, I will go back to the page that I've

23 marked in my re-- even if this was reliable, I cannot be the judge of

24 that, let the people who were in this meeting be the judges of that, they

25 are the only ones who can confirm this, but the sentence taken out from

Page 11740

1 the context, in this way, I do have a translation here, and presented in

2 such a way to the witness, has nothing whatsoever to do with the text

3 which precedes or the text which follows. If this is allowed, okay, but I

4 don't know whether this is allowed.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, your witness says that he can't confirm

6 whether this was said or not. His memory doesn't rise to that so I don't

7 know what you're objecting about.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I waited for my witness to finish.

9 I'm just objecting and asking whether the Prosecutor can do that in the --

10 in his cross-examination. I didn't dare do the same thing in my

11 cross-examination. Because the document has to be integral, has to be in

12 front of the witness. The witness should have read it in its integral

13 version. I should have presented it to him. And then point to a specific

14 question. There are 500 pages here and just two sentences are taken out

15 and the question is, is that that? This is exactly -- this was my point.

16 I just wanted to ask you whether this was allowed or not.

17 JUDGE CLARK: If the witness were to say, Mr. Krsnik, this is out

18 of context, give me an opportunity to read it, but this witness has

19 consistently said that he doesn't recall, and he can't confirm or deny.

20 If the witness -- and Mr. Krsnik, maybe we could all take lessons in a

21 shorter style.

22 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm concluding, I would have more I

23 would have covered other transcripts but I promised the Chamber I would

24 finish I just want to respond to this last comment. Mr. President, the

25 record will show that last evening, I agreed, and I think frankly somewhat

Page 11741

1 out of the ordinary, that this witness could take all the transcripts and

2 read them all. He had them all night. He had them for some 12 or 15

3 hours. Now in if the Chamber wants to take the time I'm happy I will sit

4 here with him and we can read them all together but I pointed out the

5 sections I wanted to put to the witness. I put those to him. I do not

6 think I took them unfairly out of context. Of course, counsel can take

7 him to other parts of the document if he wants to. Thank you Mr.

8 President, I'm finished.

9 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination, Mr. Krsnik?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I shall try

11 to be very brief.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Could we please have the witness see 101 and

14 IAC-2, Exhibit 101.1 and IAC-2? These are not long documents and I will

15 ask you, Witness, to read them, both of them, and after that, I will put

16 my question to you. And after that, I will seek the assistance of the

17 Chamber. Please read them very carefully, both of them. Have you read

18 it?

19 A. Well, quickly.

20 Q. No, no, no, please. It is important to me. It is important to me

21 because I shall be requesting the assistance of the Chamber. Please read

22 carefully the Croatian versions of these two documents. Please be

23 patient. The documents are not long. Because my question will be: Are

24 these texts absolutely identical, down to the last comma and full stop, in

25 Croatian, that is the B/C/S version? That is why I'm asking to you read

Page 11742

1 them carefully. I know that you are tired but please help us a little bit

2 more.

3 A. But I do not see that these two documents have anything to do one

4 with the other.

5 Q. I'm not saying that, I'm saying identical. That is important. Is

6 it the identical text in these two documents, please compare them passage

7 by passage?

8 A. 101.1 and IAC-2?

9 A. One thing is the joint statement.

10 Q. No, I didn't ask for the joint statement?

11 A. But that is what I have.

12 Q. Oh, sorry, then it is not your fault. 101.1 and IAC-2.

13 A. I have a version of the conclusions but only one. I do not have

14 the other one.

15 Q. Well, we are waiting for this other one. Well, why aren't you

16 given it? IAC-2. That is the last document in the binder.

17 MR. KRSNIK: I can give it from my binder. That's okay.

18 Q. Do you know -- compare these documents, please go passage by

19 passage.

20 A. Yes, I have the documents but just give me some time so that I can

21 compare them.

22 A. Yes, go ahead I've read them.

23 Q. Are these texts absolutely identical down to the last comma and

24 full stop, the contents?

25 A. Yes, I confirm the identity of these two texts from one sentence

Page 11743

1 to the other.

2 Q. Is it the same typewriter and the form?

3 A. No, it is not the same as you can see.

4 Q. Can you confirm who signed one document and who -- who is

5 indicated as the signatory on the other document?

6 A. On the other documents, indicates as the Honourable Court has it

7 has the names of Dario Kordic, Mate Boban, Yozo Maric, without signatures.

8 Q. And the other document?

9 A. And the other documents with the signatures of us, from the Croat

10 Community Herceg-Bosna.

11 Q. And are there the signatures or are there indicated the names of

12 Dario Kordic, Mate Boban and Yozo Maric?

13 A. On this other paper on in the first one you like and this list,

14 Your Honours, you can find that.

15 Q. Your Honours, can we have -- will you please take this B/C/S

16 versions from me today?

17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I'm warned to slow down

18 and yet I'm in a hurry because I'd really like this witness to be released

19 today, but if we are doing without haste, then, because I think this is a

20 very important matter and we must clear it up. And I think this is really

21 an opportunity to get to certain things.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, suppose I look at the document, suppose

23 we look at the Croatian version, it certainly appears to be an identical

24 document. It is not an identical document in English, although, as I said

25 to you earlier, the language is different but the content is the same. I

Page 11744

1 said that to you three hours ago. What's the points you're making?

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it's very simple. I

3 hold you in very high regard, I think you are a very perceptive person and

4 that's how I see you and that's why I always listen to you but I think we

5 have the first proof that we are dealing here with forged documents. I am

6 not saying anything against our learned friends. Perhaps somebody else

7 forged these documents, perhaps. But these are the same documents. These

8 are the same documents, typed on two different typewriters in two

9 different forms, but the same contents. On one document we have indicated

10 a signature is Dario Kordic, Mate Boban and on the other one has attached

11 to it a list with several signatures. That is impossible, Your Honours.

12 The same meeting, the same date, identical text.

13 JUDGE CLARK: Why is it impossible if the signatures are on a

14 separate page? I don't understand the point you're making. I may be

15 stupid but I'm waiting to be elucidated or educated.

16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it will be something

17 else. You live in an old democracy with a rule of law, with some legal

18 order, and I'm afraid that that is at the root of our misunderstanding.

19 It would never occur to you that somebody would dare to such a thing to a

20 court of law in your country. So that is perhaps the problem that is

21 perhaps the way we are talking at cross-purposes.

22 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... and they do but

23 make your point is because --

24 MR. KRSNIK: My point is -- [Interpretation] We have two, two same

25 documents with identical contents, minutes of a meeting. On one of these

Page 11745

1 documents, we see that is the minute taker -- we have minute taker,

2 president and vice-president, identical document, Your Honours, of that

3 same meeting was typed on another typewriter in a different format. These

4 three people are not there. These three people are not there. And even

5 though the Prosecutor had the opportunity to examine Mr. Bozo Raic and

6 examine them about this same document, he did not show them this second

7 document which is identical but now with a number of signatures.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?

9 MR. SCOTT: I only stand because of the hour. Assuming Mr. Krsnik

10 wants to make -- well, he obviously does, we can have this argument but

11 this witness apparently cannot shed any light on this at all so why are we

12 doing this now?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will finish the testimony of this witness --

14 I think you have made your point there.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, no, no, no. I'm behaving

16 very obeyingly. I'm not doing anything but I'm not sure you do not

17 understand me. Perhaps you do not understand what is in my head what I'm

18 trying to say because this is not the first document I've come across.

19 I've spent my nights studying various documents that I've been given and

20 I've come across hundreds of similar things. Irrespective of what this

21 witness said perhaps I do not understand the Court proceedings and I

22 apologise to Mr. Scott because I have not said anything against the

23 gentleman in the Prosecution, because I do know who supplies them with

24 document and where they are getting this document from, they did not go to

25 look for it personally. It is being brought to them and I know from which

Page 11746

1 centre it comes from. But now we have proof. That somebody is forging --

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I ask that the witness be excused.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, do you have any further questions?

4 MR. KRSNIK: Yes.

5 Q. [Interpretation] Just one more question, a misunderstanding and I

6 wanted to clear it up. That had to do with minutes and the manner in

7 which meetings are conducted. And the best example is the Prosecutor's

8 Exhibit, the minutes of the Livno meeting, I do not know the number of the

9 page. To clarify it for the Honourable Court, how minutes are taken, what

10 happens to them, once meetings are over and so on and so forth. And that

11 will be my last question. So please, slowly, I am sorry, I think it was

12 not fully -- we did not clarify fully the procedure of minute taking at

13 meetings where you were present.

14 A. I have already said that but I can repeat it. At our meetings, we

15 had an official person responsible for the minutes.

16 Q. Excuse me, was it in this case, Mrs. Andjelka Stojic?

17 A. I don't have the document.

18 Q. You do somewhere, only all you have to do is find it?

19 A. I know that at the meetings of the Croat Democratic Union,

20 Mrs. Stojic did take minutes.

21 Q. Right. What happens then to the minutes once she has taken these

22 minutes?

23 A. The minutes remained in the archive and the summary of what was

24 said with conclusions that were adopted are drawn up and submitted at the

25 next meeting.

Page 11747

1 Q. But were there also people who certified the minutes? Did you use

2 that particular procedure?

3 A. Yes. Yes. There were people who certified those minutes but not

4 at all meetings. They were not present at all meetings.

5 Q. And before every meeting, is also the chair elected to conduct the

6 meeting or to moderate the meeting? Isn't the minutes one of the items on

7 the agenda, one of the mandatory items on the agenda indicate also who

8 will be taking the minutes and who will be certifying the minutes?

9 A. At the meeting I was present at, that was usually done because

10 that is a rule which applies in all the civilised systems.

11 JUDGE CLARK: Ask him, Mr. Krsnik, was there an agenda?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Was there an agenda at every meeting?

14 A. Why of course, you can't have a meeting without an agenda. Every

15 meeting, every meeting that I attended would adopt the agenda -- would

16 have an agenda adopted and then one worked on the basis of the agenda.

17 For me, as a graduate in law, and for other responsible persons, that is

18 how it should be. We are not a disorganised gang who was -- who were

19 rounded up in the street and brought in to talk over something. So there

20 was the agenda and all the rest, don't make me repeat it.

21 Q. And did the -- one of the items who -- which said who would take

22 the minutes and the full name of that person?

23 A. At the beginning of every meeting, it would be established who

24 would take the minutes, that is record what was being said at the meeting.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, must we finish today,

Page 11748

1 Your Honours, this witness? I do not know whether Your Honours have

2 questions. Perhaps we could do it tomorrow for another half hour so that

3 we could do that.

4 JUDGE LIU: [Previous translation continues] ... at most 15

5 minutes more after 7.00.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then I'd like to ask you if we could

7 finish it today. I'd be grateful.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Now, will you please be so kind, I do not know if it is in the

10 transcript we are talking about items on the agenda, so one. Items and

11 the agenda and the person who will be taking minutes. The full name of

12 that person, did have to be stated in the relevant item of the agenda?

13 A. At the beginning of the meeting, meetings that I was present at,

14 we would always adopt the agenda and also designate the person who would

15 be responsible for the minutes. And at times we also had persons who

16 would be certifying the minutes, but a minute taker was always designated

17 by full name.

18 Q. And finally, are you ready, are you ready to help -- well, now I

19 say the defence, when you return home, and if I get a break or at some

20 other point in time, would you be ready that we together, at least with

21 regard to these documents that you said whilst you held those offices and

22 that you said that you were responsible for them, that is the House of

23 Representatives, would you agree that we try to locate them together and

24 then I would notify the Chamber?

25 A. I've already said and I stand by what I said, that we can do it

Page 11749

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Page 11750

1 and, God willing, I will be leaving tomorrow in the direction of Neum and

2 Mostar, and I am at your disposal about the things that I have said.

3 Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions. Thank you very

4 much Mr. Bender, for coming here and thank you very much for helping the

5 Honourable Court to gain as good an insight as possible into the subjects

6 that we are discussing here. Thank you.

7 A. I would like to thank the Honourable Court for their fair and

8 correct treatment. I -- it will make me very happy if my presentation has

9 helped to establish the truth and it will contribute towards a fair

10 judgement.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, on behalf of the bench, I would like to thank

12 you very much for coming here to give your testimony. We appreciate it

13 very much. All of us wish you a good trip back home. The usher will show

14 you out of the room.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, we are five minutes past the time. I have to

18 apologise, make our apologies to the interpreters and the court reporter

19 for the delay. So we will resume tomorrow afternoon.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

22 the 24th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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