1 Wednesday, 29 May 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we have the witness, please?
9 [The witness entered court].
10 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, did you have a good rest yesterday?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
14 JUDGE LIU: We will not take a long time for the proceedings this
16 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, you may continue with your
18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 WITNESS: WITNESS NE [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Poriouvaev: [Continued].
22 Q. Witness, yesterday you testified that after your resignation, you
23 were put on the waiting list. That means that you were unemployed; is
24 that correct?
25 A. It is.
1 Q. But is it also correct that at some point you joined the civilian
2 police at this moment, after the resignation, I mean?
3 A. Your Honours, to that question, I can give the following answer.
4 There was an attempt, there was a failed attempt, to get me to work for
5 the civilian police in Jablanica. However, as that job was not suited to
6 me, in view of the level of my education, and my qualifications, but even
7 more importantly, the necessary procedure could not be performed to
8 conclude a work contract, because under the then police organisation
9 system, all the policemen regardless of the municipality, that is their
10 work papers, whatever you have to hand over, your work booklet, your
11 education certificates and so on and so forth, all that had to be sent to
12 Sarajevo. As Sarajevo was cut off, I could not get all these papers and
13 they could not be sent through, so after a few days, I realised that
14 nothing would come out of that job.
15 Q. Who was the person who invited you to work with the civilian
16 police in Jablanica?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could all this -- could
22 we go into private session? I think all such things should be -- should
23 be -- all these questions should not be in a private session because the
24 identity of the witness might be revealed so can we go into private
25 session, please.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go into private session, please.
2 [Private session]
12 Pages 11833-11844 – redacted – private session
21 [Open session]
22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
23 Q. Witness, yesterday you claimed that it was MOS that started armed
24 conflict in April, 1993, in Jablanica municipality, is it correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you showed us one document, Exhibit D1/336. And now I would
2 like the witness to be shown Exhibit 296.1. There is an error in the
3 transcript, just page 15, line 23, it is written studied. It must be
4 "started," the conflict started.
5 I will direct your attention especially to paragraph 1 and 2.
6 Witness, have you read the document?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. As you see, it makes reference to the document that was read out
9 yesterday in the courtroom, exhibit that I just named, 336. Is it
10 correct, Witness, to say that it is not -- it was not MOS military
11 actions, it was the attempt of HVO to implement Vance-Owen agreement by
12 force that was the cause of this military conflict? Do you agree with
14 A. I'm not sure that I have understood the question completely.
15 Especially its first part. I believe that you have asked me several
16 things. Can you please break the whole thing down into several
17 questions? Because I have a feeling that you are leading me into giving
18 you a wrong answer.
19 Q. I will make things easier. From this order, from this minutes, I,
20 for example, make a conclusion that it was -- it were attempts of the HVO
21 to implement by force the Vance-Owen agreement that caused the military
22 conflict in the Jablanica area in April, 1993.
23 A. Your Honours, this is not correct. This is not correct. I have
24 other information about these facts and my information is confirmed by the
25 text in -- under item 1 of this document, if you will allow me, I know
1 from a conversation with Mr. Matan Zaric and we are talking about 15
2 April, 1993, when I was informed that the units of the BH Army launched
3 attacks in the region of Doljani, attacks on the HVO units, and that the
4 Muslim civilians were leaving Doljani and starting to go towards
5 Jablanica, which I witnessed myself.
6 Q. Now I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 299.1 -- sorry,
7 it's not -- sorry, not that. Exhibit 301.1. This is an order issued on
8 the 16th of April, 1993, by Colonel Zeljko Siljeg. Witness, I would like
9 you to read paragraph 7, 8 twice.
10 A. Excuse me, seven and?
11 Q. Five. 5, 7, 8. Do you see that on the 16th of April, the date of
12 the operation in Sovici and Slatina was specified by the HVO? On the eve
13 of the operation. Do you agree with me that it was HVO that started the
14 military operation?
15 A. Your Honours, I cannot agree with the statement that the HVO
16 started the military operation, because I already said I have other
17 information. However, I doubt the authenticity of this document. It does
18 not contain the important characteristics of authenticity, and the events
19 on the ground, and my information about those, differ completely from the
20 way you put your question.
21 Q. Witness, do you see a stamp at the bottom of the page, the stamp
22 confirming the reception of this document?
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, so far as I understand, this
24 document has been admitted.
25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE LIU: So there is no need to debate on the authenticity of
2 this document at all with this witness.
3 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
4 Q. Witness, you were not present in Sovici on the 17th of April,
6 A. Your Honours, I was not in Sovici on that day, and --
7 Q. How do you know what happened in Sovici on the 17th of April?
8 A. Allow me to complete my sentence. Yesterday, and today, on
9 several occasions, I've already said and repeated that I was not a
10 soldier, I did not belong to any army, to the HVO or any other army. You
11 are addressing too many questions of the military nature to me. You are
12 insisting on me saying something that only a soldier could know. So how
13 come I know what happened in Sovici? If I need to answer, I will.
14 Q. How do you know? It's a simple question. You were not present
15 there. How do you know what happened there?
16 A. Very simple question, a very simple answer. When the BH Army, in
17 its terrorist sabotage attack on the 27 July, 1993, attacked Doljani
18 village, and killed nearly 40 civilian Croats, and detained --
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]
20 A. This is the answer, just a moment, this is the answer. You will
21 get it in my next sentence. And they --
22 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... speeches and
23 you're not answering the question. The question which we all want to know
24 is how do you know that Doljani was attacked before Sovici on April of
25 1993? April, 1993. Yesterday, you told us that your brother was in the
1 army or in the HVO and that Doljani was attacked on the 15th of April.
2 How do you know that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already answered that. I will
4 repeat it. I know that from a conversation with Mr. Matan Zaric and my
5 brother on the 15th of April was no longer a commander of -- because a
6 month before that, he left that duty for health reasons, and I know about
7 the 15th of April from Mr. Matan Zaric.
8 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
9 Q. And also on the -- July -- sorry, April in Sovici?
10 A. 17th April, and the events that happened on that day, I know about
11 them from the detained prisoners, from Doljani, on the 28th of July I
12 spent several months with them in the camp, so we had enough time to go
13 into details.
14 Q. Who was in command of the operation in Sovici from the HVO side?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Yesterday, you stated that the civilian population was evacuated
17 to Jablanica, right?
18 A. Which civilian population.
19 Q. From Sovici and partly from Doljani.
20 A. The evacuation of the civilian population from Sovici, I already
21 explained yesterday, and I confirm that today.
22 Q. How do you know?
23 A. However, however, I've already answered that. I answered that
25 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry, Witness NE, I have a note of what you said
1 yesterday, and of course my note is subject to what appears on the
2 transcript. But I have a note with a red mark beside it saying that you
3 said that your brother was the commander of the HVO battalion in Doljani.
4 You also gave information about the Muslim forces there, and that you said
5 that you personally saw people leaving the area of Doljani. So now today
6 you are saying that your brother was not in the HVO because he was sick.
7 You don't know who was the commander at Doljani, and further that your
8 information is not from personal observation but following a conversation
9 with -- I have a note, with Mr. Matan Zaric. No, let the witness
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm very sorry, Your Honour, if the
12 transcript says what I have just heard from Judge Clark. This is not what
13 I said. This is how things were. My brother was the commander of a
14 battalion throughout 1992 and maybe for a month of 1993. So he was
15 certainly not the commander in April, and on the 15th of April, he could
16 not have been in Doljani because he was with me in Jablanica because he
17 was taken prisoner at the same time as me and taken to the camp, and so I
18 didn't say that, or if I was either misunderstood or misinterpreted, this
19 is an opportunity to correct that. On the 15th of April, my brother was
20 not in Doljani but he was the commander of a battalion in 1992 and for a
21 month in 1993.
22 JUDGE CLARK: What is the connection between your brother and
23 Doljani, then?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The connection between my brother,
25 as the commander of an HVO battalion from Doljani, lies in the fact that
1 the members of the HVO, throughout the entire 1992, the entire 1991,
2 mostly were deployed in Doljani and they would, during 1992, they would be
3 sent to Konjic municipality to man the positions facing the Serbian
4 forces. So this is the connection between my brother and Doljani
5 throughout 1992.
6 MR. PORIOUVAEV:
7 Q. And my final question is: Do you know Mladen Naletilic or did you
8 know him ever before?
9 A. No.
10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I'm sorry to say I'm very disciplined. That's
11 why I complete my cross-examination at the appointed time.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, you should have finished your
13 cross-examination earlier. Anyway, any re-examination?
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. KRSNIK: Shall we make the break?
17 JUDGE LIU: It depends, how long are you going to take, if just a
18 few minutes we will continue to sit for a while. But if for a long one,
19 we will have the break.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to -- it's not going to
21 be a few minutes. I would like to clarify, because Judge Clark did not
22 allow me the intervention previously. This is exactly how the witness
23 testified yesterday and I would like to clarify a few things. It's not
24 going to be a few minutes but maybe ten, 15 minutes, so longer than a few
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. In this case, let's have a break. We'll resume
2 at 4.00 sharp.
3 --- Recess taken at 3.31 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Your
7 Honours, I merely wish to say we checked the transcript, on pages 11780,
8 and 11781, the witness said the same thing as today as he said yesterday.
9 Perhaps it was a misinterpretation or -- 11780.
10 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, let us try and clear up certain
12 matters. My first question, please be so kind. You said that you learned
13 from Matan Zaric about the attack on 15th of April, how, when, what
14 happened and everything else. Will you please explain to the Honourable
15 Court all these details to the end, because I believe this has not been
16 fully clarified and the Prosecutor asked you about that and also the
17 Judges asked but that. So will you please tell them?
18 A. Yes. That 15th of April, 1993, Mr. Matan Zaric was turned back
19 from the checkpoint at Bokulja, which is at the entrance into Jablanica
20 from the direction of Doljani. He was turned back without an explanation.
21 After that he returned to Doljani.
22 JUDGE CLARK: Just a moment, witness, because we need
23 clarification on this, you have to be very careful. Did you see
24 Mr. Matan Zaric being turned back or did he tell you this story?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After he was turned back, he called
1 from Doljani by radio, and explained that he had been turned back. So I
2 heard it from him. He explained that he had been turned back and asked me
3 to check why had that happened.
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Will you please explain it better, what checkpoint, what was he in
6 Jablanica, where did he live? Where was he going? Will you explain it to
7 the court? Because the Honourable Judges do not know that?
8 A. The Bokulja checkpoint was controlled by the ABiH members and it
9 is between Jablanica and Doljani, at the exit from Jablanica towards
10 Doljani. Mr. Matan Zaric who was a representative of the HVO and was
11 resident of Doljani, he needed to come to Jablanica every day. So that
12 day, the 15th of April, around 10.00, he was turned back from that
13 checkpoint without any reason.
14 Q. You mean he was not allowed to enter Jablanica?
15 A. Correct. Members of the ABiH would not let him enter Jablanica.
16 He went back to Doljani, and then by radio, he established contact with me
17 and said to me, [redacted], I have made a mistake."
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry could we go to private
19 session and could this be redacted?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.
21 [Private session]
12 Page 11854 – redacted – private session
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
12 Page 11856 – redacted – private session
12 Page 11857 – redacted – private session
12 Page 11858 – redacted – private session
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE CLARK: Now I have a couple of questions in relation to the
11 growing tensions in your home town. As I understand it, you described to
12 us how relations between the ethnic communities were good prior to the
13 balance being affected by the influx of refugees. Now, the question I
14 want to ask you is: Were the refugees uniquely Muslim refugees?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know why that was? After all, we know that
17 people of Croatian origin were victims of the aggression in 1992 as well
18 as Muslims. Why were only Muslims coming to Jablanica?
19 A. I mean, I can't really give you any specific answer. I've
20 explained one of -- possible reasons because in 1992, there were no combat
21 operations of the Serb forces, that is in 1992, there was peace in
22 Jablanica in contrast with Konjic, Mostar and other places, so that was
23 the reason why they lingered on in Jablanica.
24 JUDGE CLARK: Are you suggesting that they weren't refugees at
1 A. Yes. They were refugees. I've said that. They were expelled
2 from East Bosnia and let me not repeat it because I've already said that
3 and some places in East Herzegovina so they were refugees. I know that.
4 JUDGE CLARK: The question I asked you is why do you think that
5 there were only Muslim refugees? Why were there no Croat refugees, seeing
6 that both groups suffered equally at the hands of the Serbs in Eastern
7 Bosnia and Eastern Herzegovina?
8 A. Your Honours, I think -- I mean I know that in East Bosnia, Rudo,
9 Gorazde, Foca, Rogatica, I don't think there are as many as 0.00 Croats.
10 Those places are inhabited by Serbs and Muslims. I don't think there are
11 any Croats at all. So when refugees came from those places, one could not
12 expect to see any Croats among them.
13 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Because I didn't know that. In relation
14 to the tensions which were rising between the two communities, do you see
15 any connection at all between the use of the prefix Croatian in front of
16 many institutions following the establishment of the Croatian Community of
17 Herceg-Bosna? Do you think that played any role in the increasing
19 A. Your Honours, I want it to be known that those unfortunate people,
20 the refugees, the Muslims from East Bosnia, could not be irritated by any
21 Croatian prefixes because in Jablanica, these prefixes did not exist
22 anywhere in any walk of life. So I do not think that could vex them, that
23 that could bother them.
24 JUDGE CLARK: The other question I wanted to ask you relates to
25 Doljani and Sovici. Did you actually go to Doljani or Sovici at any stage
1 from mid-April to the end of April of 1993?
2 A. No.
3 JUDGE CLARK: Can you tell me the last time that you have been in
5 A. I came to Sovici only as late as 1994, after I came out of the
6 camp and went to Mostar, so that was the first of March, 1994, and a few
7 days later, I went up there.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Did you see the condition of the village of Sovici?
9 A. Well, I didn't. I took the road, the road that one usually
10 takes. I wasn't really interested to find out the state of the whole
11 village because the village is rather dispersed, the houses are scattered,
12 they are not grouped in one place. And in that area, through which
13 the road goes, I saw what I could see.
14 JUDGE CLARK: Perhaps you'd share that information with the
16 A. I don't quite understand what I'm expected to do.
17 JUDGE CLARK: Would you mind describing to me what you saw? You
18 said that you saw what you could see. What could you see?
19 A. I saw -- I saw there next to the road, which I took, that there
20 were houses burned down. It was March, 1994. So it was winter time. So
21 well, one couldn't see anything particular. I mean, it wasn't the
22 agricultural season. It was the time of the year when people would be
23 working tilling the land, you couldn't see at that time of the year people
24 in the fields.
25 JUDGE CLARK: Is it your evidence, Witness NE, that Doljani was
1 attacked by the ABiH on the 15th and your information is because your
2 friend couldn't get into Jablanica? What is the source of your
3 information that Sovici was attacked on the 17th?
4 A. Before the break, I tried to explain but I was interrupted. The
5 information that Sovici was attacked on the 17th of April, 1993, I
6 received from the detained Croats who were taken prisoners on 27 July in
7 the ABiH Army operation. Besides some civilians, there were also ten or
8 12 members of the HVO who were together with me in the camp, in the museum
9 camp. We were there for four months. And I had the opportunity to learn
10 that from them.
11 JUDGE CLARK: So this is the first time that you had heard that
12 Sovici was attacked was at the end of July when you were in a camp. Can I
13 take it from that, Witness NE that during the period from the 17th of
14 April until July, Sovici's attack was a complete surprise to you? You
15 were utterly unaware of any activity between any parties in Sovici on the
16 17th of April until you heard it on the 27th of July and thereafter?
17 A. Your Honours, I must say that I heard even before that, but
18 these -- this was controversial information. I heard some information on
19 the -- from the press service of the 44th Brigade of the 8th Army of BH,
20 which took over the local civilian television under their wing, and I also
21 heard some other information, which spoke contrary to the fact things
22 actually were, so I did not really believe what I heard. So this is the
23 information that I received from the press service of the 44th Brigade via
24 the local cable TV.
25 JUDGE CLARK: Can I take it that that information indicated there
1 had been an attack on Sovici on the 17th of April, and for the days
3 A. Can you please repeat this question?
4 JUDGE CLARK: You were describing to us, Witness NE, that before
5 the 27th of July, 1993, you had heard something about events in Sovici but
6 because you heard it from the information service of the 44th Brdska
7 Brigada, via local cable TV, that you didn't believe it.
8 A. I did not believe this information, as I already said.
9 JUDGE CLARK: Yes. What I wanted to know is what was the
10 information which you rejected because of its source?
11 A. For example, on the same television, from the same television,
12 while I was still not in the camp but there were other Croats who were
13 detained, I heard that there was no camp whatsoever, that nobody was
14 detained, and I knew that there were people detained because some of my
15 friends were there, and on the television, I heard that there were no
16 camps. That's why I did not trust that television source.
17 JUDGE CLARK: I got that point. You didn't believe the
18 information because of the source, and you're giving me another example
19 for the validity of the rejection of the information. But what I'm asking
20 you is what did this source actually say about the events on the days
21 following the 17th of April? Now, I accept that you didn't believe it,
22 but can you recall how the events were described?
23 A. They were described in the following way. It was said that the
24 majority of the Muslim population had been killed, that many were
25 massacred, that unprecedented evil was done, that almost nobody remained
1 alive in Sovici. This is the information that I heard on that
2 television. And I couldn't believe that, especially I couldn't believe it
3 because at the beginning of June, 1993, I personally saw Muslim refugees
4 who were bussed and arrived in front of the SDK building in Jablanica.
5 Since I knew some people, I could tell that not everybody had been
6 killed. And I was then glad that the information was not correct. It was
7 not correct that everybody had been killed, as they said on TV.
8 JUDGE CLARK: Did the television say who in fact had attacked
9 Sovici, who was responsible for these, as you describe, exaggerated
11 A. Yes. On TV, it was said that Sovici was attacked by the HVO and
12 that over 90 per cent of the Muslims in Sovici were killed, and that
13 they -- that the major brunt was taken by the civilians. I didn't believe
14 it. I couldn't believe it.
15 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. Can you tell me now what your colleagues
16 and inmates, co-detainees told you about the events? Who did they say
17 attacked Sovici?
18 A. My colleagues, inmates, from Doljani, who were brought over on the
19 27th of July, told me that since the positions before the conflict, the
20 HVO positions were at lower points, and the Army of BH were at higher
21 points, because of the way the forces were deployed, and because of the
22 number of troops of the respective two armies, they told me that on that
23 particular day, the BH Army had attacked the HVO, which had been
24 surrounded, but that after a certain time, they -- the reinforcement
25 arrived to the HVO forces and the attack was then repelled. It was
2 JUDGE CLARK: Can I take it, then, that what you're saying is that
3 there was a skirmish between the two armies and that as a result of the
4 skirmish, the HVO attacked Sovici?
5 A. No. There was no skirmish, there was no conflict. The HB army
6 intended, pursuant to the document that I showed you, to eliminate the HVO
7 physically from this area, and this had already started. The checkpoints
8 had been taken over. And then they proceeded towards the north west,
9 in order to expel, to eliminate the HVO from the area of Jablanica
10 municipality, because it had already been done in the municipality of
11 Konjic, which is somewhat further up to the north.
12 JUDGE CLARK: I'm afraid I'm having difficulty understanding your
13 evidence but can I put the question a little more simply? Is it your
14 evidence that Sovici was not attacked by the HVO or anybody with similar
15 interests as the HVO?
16 A. Yes. I am saying that Sovici was not attacked by the HVO. The
17 situation was absolutely different. All the HVO forces, both in Sovici
18 and in the entire municipality of Jablanica, in the entire municipality of
19 Konjic, were attacked by the BH Army in order to implement the plan of the
20 Operation Neretva 1993, in order to occupy Stolac, Mostar, and further
21 down to the sea. This was done gradually, first in Konjic, then in
22 Jablanica, then further down southwards, but fortunately enough they
23 didn't get all the way to Mostar.
24 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much, Witness NE.
25 JUDGE LIU: There are no questions out of Judges' questions? Yes,
1 Mr. Krsnik?
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one question relative to the
3 question of Judge Clark, why did refugees come to Jablanica, what was the
4 situation in Jablanica. My question is was Jablanica ever shelled? When,
5 if it was?
6 A. By whom?
7 Q. Anybody.
8 A. Yes. Jablanica was shelled in the summer, in July, 1992, by the
9 air force of the former JNA, on several occasions. Luckily enough there
10 were no casualties, there was no major material damage.
11 Q. What about artillery attacks in 1993? That's what I meant when I
12 asked you.
13 A. No.
14 Q. It was never shelled?
15 A. While I was still there, when I was still free, before I was
16 detained, I don't know, later on, objectively I could not -- I couldn't
17 know because I left Jablanica.
18 Q. When did you leave Jablanica?
19 A. On 8 September, 1993.
20 Q. So until 8 September, 1993, no single shell fell on Jablanica?
21 A. No.
22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness. And
23 thank you for coming here.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to
25 give your evidence. We appreciate that very much. When the usher pulls
1 the blinds down, he will show you out of the courtroom. We all wish you a
2 pleasant trip back home.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and thank you very much
4 for allowing me to say the truth before this Tribunal, because I hope that
5 this will contribute to establishing the whole truth and passing a just
6 and fair judgement.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the documents, I hope both parties could
9 file us in three days a list for the documents you are going to tender.
10 At the same time, in another three days, you could file the response to
11 the documents offered by the other party concerning the tendering of those
12 documents. In the meantime, this Trial Chamber would like to invite both
13 parties to submit your views concerning the interpretation of the BiH
14 government. I understand during the proceedings, there is some disputes
15 concerning this terminology. We would like to hear fully the views from
16 the both parties.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for wise and
20 just decision regarding the position and the difference in interpretation.
21 What I would like to say now is that today this is the 12th or the 13th
22 witness, but the Prosecution is doing the same thing all over again, the
23 same practice. I don't know whether this is actually the practice in
24 Anglo-Saxon system that documents are delivered to the Trial Chamber which
25 are then not used in cross-examination. So the way I interpret this,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 because in my system, and in the system that the President of this Trial
2 Chamber belongs to, I have -- my feeling is that the documents are given
3 to you to read and that it is not important to follow these documents in
4 the cross-examination. About 60 per cent of these documents, which are
5 tendered for the cross-examination, are not actually used in
6 cross-examination. This has been the practice with all the 13 witnesses.
7 I have checked it. And again with this witness, the situation has been
8 the same. Over 60 per cent of these documents have never been presented
9 to the witness.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think we made a decision in
11 admitting the documents. There is a paragraph which clearly stated the
12 position of this Trial Chamber that in principle only those documents
13 introduced or used through a witness could be admitted into the evidence.
14 Otherwise, the parties have to find another way to have those documents
15 admitted. For instance, 92 bis.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] There has been a misunderstandings,
17 I'm afraid. Your Honours, I apologise, I believe that there has been a
18 misunderstanding. I asked for your instruction. I don't know what the
19 practice of this Tribunal is. I don't know what the practice of the
20 Anglo-Saxon system is. Why does the Prosecution give you this binder
21 with, I don't know, 20 documents, gives it to you, and then you take it
22 away to read, and then, in the cross-examination, they will only use two
23 documents and the remainder of the documents stays with you? That was the
24 case today, in the cross-examination the Prosecutor used not more than 35
25 per cent of the documents. What is the purpose of all the other
1 documents? Why do they put together a binder? Why do they give all the
2 documents to you to read? I'm not talking about the admission of
3 documents, but why the documents are being given to you in the first
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think this question should be
6 answered by the Prosecution. In my view, in my understanding, that it is
7 very difficult to prejudge what kind of documents that will be used during
8 the cross-examination, because it's all depends on the direct examination
9 and what kind of questions or issues may come up during the
10 cross-examination. So in this way, the Prosecution furnished us with a
11 bundle of documents, and frankly speaking, we don't have time at this
12 moment to go through all those documents at all. If you request, and if
13 the other two Judges agreed, we could turn back those documents which were
14 not used to the possession of the Prosecution. There is no problem from
15 this Trial Chamber.
16 Yes, Mr. Krsnik, are we going to have the next witness?
17 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: What kind of protective measures do you ask?
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Distortion of the witness's face and
20 the pseudonym.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we have the next witness? Your request is
23 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, Mr. Seric, I understand the point you're
24 making about the bundles of documents and you've probably noticed that I
25 take them out with me, and I do read them. They don't always mean a great
1 deal in the absence of explanation but I think, to put your mind at rest
2 for the future, I won't read any documents unless they are actually
3 introduced, because I myself have wondered why we received so many
4 documents and so few are referred to, although I recognise that it is
5 impossible to predict what a witness is going to say. So to put your mind
6 at rest, I won't read them any more.
7 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] While the witness is being brought
9 into the room, while I was judge, I used to read many more documents than
10 I actually used while I was passing my decisions. To my mind, the
11 situation is absolutely clear.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?
13 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, since everyone in the courtroom now has
14 addressed this matter except the Prosecution, I think we should have a
15 chance to respond. Your Honour, it is never been my practice in terms of
16 answering Mr. Krsnik's question in terms of the Anglo-Saxon practice and I
17 won't be so bold as to talk about Anglo-Saxon practice, I will talk about
18 American practice, and that is I have never been required to give a
19 bundling of exhibits at the beginning of cross-examination. I've never
20 been that. We've tendered one exhibit at a time as the questions are
21 asked and as the documents are used. It is the practice, and it was at
22 the request of this Chamber that bundles of documents were prepared ahead
23 of time, on best guesses as to what we might be able to use. Now, we
24 don't know how long the witnesses will be. We don't know how responsive
25 they will be. Some day, some day, we may have a witness who gives short
1 answers and responsive answers and we may get through all the documents
2 but many times, as the Chamber has observed itself, the witnesses take a
3 long time to answer the simplest questions and we are simply not able to
4 get through all the exhibits that we prepare. That's the simple answer.
5 It's no more complicated than that. But if the Chamber directs us to
6 continue to submit bundles, we will. I am very happy and we would be only
7 too pleased to go back to a system where we will tender each exhibit one
8 at a time as we go. If the Chamber tells me that, we will change our
10 JUDGE LIU: We will take note of what you said. Yes. We will
11 have the next witness now.
12 [The witness entered court].
13 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Would you please make the
14 solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS NF
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
20 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
22 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you can relax. I know that this is your
24 first time ever in a situation like this. I would just like to give you
25 some instructions. The usher is going to show you a piece of paper, and
1 if your name is on that piece of paper, just say, "Yes."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The next thing I would like to tell you, in front of you is a
4 screen. Can you see it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you see the cursor that is moving? I'm kindly asking you for
7 the purpose of cooperation, as -- and as efficient examination as
8 possible, since we both speak the same language, please wait until the
9 cursor stops. We have interpretation into English and French. It is very
10 important that we get the best possible interpretation on the screen. Can
11 we please go to the private session? It is very important for the Trial
12 Chamber to receive the information about this witness.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.
14 [Private session]
12 Pages 11874-11881 – redacted – private session
13 [Open Session]
14 --- Recess taken at 5.15 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 5.46 p.m.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we are not interested in the
17 structure of that house, because that may not be the subject of the issue
18 which is in dispute. All we want to know from this witness is who built
19 that villa.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour. That is
21 why I brought this witness, this fact witness, but you know, this is a
22 witness from Siroki Brijeg, so perhaps I thought I might make you more
23 familiar with the atmosphere in Siroki Brijeg, just a little bit. I
24 didn't mean to insist on that too much. And of course my questions will
25 be who built it, and of course my chief question will be the Defence asked
1 to see what the witness knows about it. That's the only reason why I
2 called this witness, because this is one of the counts in the indictment,
3 isn't it? But I believe we have only one more background witness, as far
4 as I know, and all the other witnesses will be short and testifying to
5 specific facts.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Witness, we broke at a point when you told us that the work
9 began. So will you please tell us when was that and then I will move on?
10 A. Quite right. I cannot give you the exacts date because I do not
11 really remember it but we started work in November 1992. However, I'd
12 like to seize this opportunity to apologise from the bottom of my heart to
13 the Honourable Court and everybody else here because this is really my
14 first and I hope the last time that I'm in a courtroom. I really do not
15 know how I am supposed to behave so I hope you won't hold it against me.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we appreciate that you're coming to The
17 Hague to give your testimony. Actually, all your doing is to help us, the
18 Judges. So please speak slowly so that whatever you say will be
19 translated into the other two languages. And try to give very short and
20 concise answers to the questions put to you by Mr. Krsnik.
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, I understood
22 what the witness wanted to say. I wanted to apologise to the Chamber that
23 he did not stand up in time and bow to the Honourable Court before the
24 break, I mean.
25 Q. So let's move on. Will you please be so kind as to tell us who
1 did the work, who built the house? Who did the earth works and so on and
2 so forth?
3 A. The house was built by companies that we subcontracted, because we
4 had -- we concluded the contract under a turn-key principle.
5 Q. Will you please explain what that means?
6 A. It means that the investor is interested only in the finished
7 house, the quality of work, and he undertakes to pay for all the work that
8 had been contracted. The majority of works -- work was performed by a
9 local company called MVT Garant owned by Mr. Ivo Vrljic called "Grga" and
10 that company came from Polog. It is from the locality of Polog and all
11 the workers come from Polog. It is about halfway between Siroki Brijeg
12 and Mostar. So we contracted those companies, and we paid them.
13 Q. Tell me, please, did the contract include only the house or
14 something else? Will you slow down, please?
15 A. It also involved the landscaping around the house itself. That is
16 all the earth works, the support walls, and now it occurred to me, when we
17 did these -- the landscaping projects, I suggested, simply because we had
18 to bring earth to that slope because of the natural conditions, and to
19 build a swimming pool. That is only to perform the concrete -- the
20 concrete walls of that -- of that swimming pool, and the investor agreed
21 to that.
22 Q. I will now show you an Exhibit, which is 25.6 so show us where was
23 this slope? Where did you have to fill it? And will you tell us if this
24 swimming pool was ever used?
25 A. As far as I know, that swimming pool was never put to use because
1 I never received any information as to that.
2 Q. Will you please use the pointer? Now, will you please take the
3 pointer and show what is it that you have to fill and why then the
4 swimming pool and why did you suggest it?
5 A. Very well. Here.
6 Q. No, you have to point here.
7 A. You can see here the support wall, and you can see the difference.
8 So we had to build this support wall, which is made of natural stone, and
9 then we had to fill it in, in order to obtain flat plateau. So since
10 there was this large cavity, I suggested that we perform basic works, that
11 is to cast the concrete work for the swimming pool, and you see this tree,
12 this is the fig tree which Mr. Naletilic wanted to keep at all cost. And
13 there is also a bolder. So that we adjusted the shape of the pool so as
14 to preserve that tree. And a man who has a company specializing in
15 swimming pools, owned by Mr. Vrljic, helped me with all this so that we
16 cast the concrete shell so that the swimming pool could eventually be put
17 to use, built by building in filters and so on and so forth.
18 Q. Tell me, please, sir, and if this swimming pool was to be filled,
19 with what would it be filled?
20 A. Look, I have to tell you that in this situation, there was nothing
21 to fill it with because here, above the house, we -- I don't know if you
22 can see it on this photograph --
23 Q. I'll give you another exhibit, which is 25.4.
24 A. Above the house, about 50 metres away, we used the difference in
25 altitude and we built here a water reservoir, the water had to be brought
1 by water tankers. And in this locality, around, nobody has any water, and
2 we have very many water tankers in Siroki Brijeg because and they are kept
3 very busy, especially in summertime. So the only way was to use this
4 individual water reservoir to tank it, to tank water there, and then,
5 owing to the natural slope, it could then supply the house.
6 Q. Are there any water pipelines there now?
7 A. No, there aren't. To build the water pipelines, to any point
8 here, would cost a great deal of money.
9 Q. We heard that a canal, that is the canal for the water pipes was
10 built only for Tuta's house. It is to the left of the swimming pool. You
11 see along this rim here, that special water pipelines were being -- that
12 is canals were being dug for Tuta's house.
13 A. No, that is pure fabrication, nobody could do that. That is all I
14 have to say about that.
15 Q. Yes. Finish your answer?
16 A. It is impossible to do because if you look at this first
17 photograph, this first photograph here, I'd like to see a civil engineer
18 who can tell us how can one supply water to this house here. That is pure
19 fabrication. I have nothing to add to that.
20 Q. And let us look at the photograph 25.2. It was said, we heard it
21 in the courtroom, that it was -- that the digging was done from the left
22 corner here towards the house.
23 A. Gentlemen, I was just like to say one thing. This whole hill,
24 Cigansko Brdo, Gypsy Hill and all the surrounding hills are at least 500
25 metres above the river. Above the sea level? Yes, above the sea level.
1 From day one until the last day I was in this building in the construction
2 site and in full responsibility, I claim that this is a fabrication.
3 There are no water pipes here, nor they can be brought here or done here
4 under these conditions. But anybody can check that on the spot.
5 Q. Are there water pipes here today?
6 A. I already said that there are no water pipes here.
7 Q. Not even the surrounding villages have water supply?
8 A. No, they don't.
9 Q. Where is the first village in direction to this house, in respect
10 of this house?
11 A. In this direction. I'm going to show you, the first village is
12 Donji Crnac and then Gornji Crnac. I would like to say something else
13 if I may. Not only that the surrounding villages do not have water
14 pipes, water supply, half of the town does not have a water supply. This
15 is the infrastructure that was there during the former Yugoslavia.
16 Nothing has been invested in any other infrastructure, and that can easily
17 be checked. So that in Siroki Brijeg, there are at least 20 water tankers
18 that supply people with water every day.
19 Q. The Defence is going to ask for an on site inspection by experts.
20 This has always been the intention of the Defence but I just wanted to
21 hear you because you are also a construction expert who has also built
22 this house. Let's move on to my next question. You may sit down. Tell
23 me, please, who were the workers who worked on the house? Do you know
24 them? Where were they employed? The workers who worked on the house and
25 the environment of the house?
1 A. I have already mentioned the company MVT Garant who was our
2 subcontractor. So we subcontracted all the works. We gave them the tasks
3 and we made money on our part, and they made money on their part. This
4 company performed 90 per cent of the work on this house.
5 Q. When was everything finished? When was it completed, the month if
6 you can remember the exact and the year?
7 A. I can't give you the exact date but the house was completed in
9 Q. The year?
10 A. The year was 1993. Don't ask me about any date. The house was
11 completed and moved in immediately upon the completion. Mr. Naletilic and
12 his brother inspected the works. He said he did not have any objections,
13 and they moved into the house immediately there upon. The work in -- on
14 the environment, so the supporting work, and the basic work on the
15 swimming pool, which was my suggestion, went on for another 20 days or a
16 month, but the majority of our works were completed, again I can't give
17 you the exact date but it was mid-April.
18 Q. After April, did you come to the construction site which was not
19 the construction site but the house? Did you go there in May, June and
20 later on?
21 A. After that period, there was some ancillary works, some
22 auxiliary works that had to be done, that is the fencing of the property.
23 Then erecting the gate. You could see that gate easily on the photo.
24 Then the access road built of natural stone. But these works did not
25 require a large workforce, and my involvement, but I can say that from the
1 beginning of May, I came to the house twice or three times a week, and
2 Mr. Miro, Mr. Naletilic's brother, was there every day, together with my
3 foreman. The number of workers was somewhat lower because no large number
4 was no longer required and we didn't want to disturb the people who had
5 already moved into the house. And this lasted, again don't ask me about
6 the specific date, but this lasted for another three or four months.
7 Q. Tell me, we've heard in this courtroom that, besides the water
8 pipes, the Prosecutor alleged that it was the inmates who built the house
9 and the swimming pool. I apologise if I have interrupted you, I apologise
10 once again.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer?
12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I object to that characterisation of
13 the indictment. I can take counsel -- should we wish to visit the issue
14 we can go straight to the indictment and the relevant passages. I don't
15 think it's appropriate to do that it front of the witness but I disagree
16 with the characterisation of the charges in respect of this house as they
17 have just been made by Mr. Krsnik.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may cite that paragraph in the indictment on
19 this particular issue.
20 MR. STRINGER: Paragraph 44 of the indictment, Mr. President,
21 which is part of counts 2 through 8. Its works -- it makes reference to
22 the use of Bosnian -- shall I read it, Mr. President?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
24 MR. STRINGER: Makes references to the use of Bosnian Muslim
25 detainees to perform labour in locations other than the front lines,
1 including building, maintenance and reparation works in private
2 properties of the members and commanders of the KB.
3 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, I didn't want to disturb you earlier and
4 I'm glad that the Prosecution have intervened. I looked at the indictment
5 and my memory of what the witnesses said was that none of the detainees
6 ever set foot on the property. It's that they were outside the property.
7 They were talking about other people's houses and they named names where
8 they carried out building works but I think that as far as Mr. Naletilic's
9 house was concerned, they never got inside the gate. And we established,
10 I think that the swimming pool they were talking about was the municipal
11 swimming pool at Siroki Brijeg and not Mr. Naletilic's private swimming
12 pool. I think I'm right in that. So all we were talking about really
13 were a few people who were helping in very strong sunshine to build
14 canals, drains.
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you are right, but not
16 fully right. I remember well, and my colleague has reminded me, that the
17 Prosecutor in the examination-in-chief of a witness whose name I'm not
18 going to mention, he led the witness in talking about the works on Tuta's
19 swimming pool, and other witnesses, one of them claimed under the
20 examination of Mr. Scott that from this location, he could see Tuta's
21 house and that this is where he built a water pipe. We can go back to
22 that. I know the exactly the questions and the answers of this witness.
23 Can we give the witness the photo, the Exhibit 25.2? And this witness,
24 this particular witness, said that when he was standing here, he could see
25 Tuta's house and that they were digging water pipes for Tuta's house there
1 and the forced labour was on the swimming pool and the water pipe only and
2 exclusively for Mr. Naletilic's house. That's what the -- that particular
3 witness said in the examination-in-chief conducted by the Prosecutor.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Stringer?
5 MR. STRINGER: I think it's pointless, Mr. President to argue
6 about what the transcripts say but I disagree with counsel's
7 characterisation on that last point as well.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, it's not proper, it's not proper to
9 say anything about the testimony by other witnesses in front of this
10 witness. You may ask some questions about that pipeline along this line.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] There are two things. Firstly, why
12 can't I say with another witness said in this courtroom? Why can't I say
13 that in front of this witness? Why can't I say that Witness A, B, C, said
14 so and so? Second question: If the Prosecutor does not agree with this,
15 then I would like to ask him to withdraw part of his indictment and no
16 longer charge my client with forcing inmates to work on his house and
17 around his house. I hope that we are clear on that, and that the position
18 on that is clear from now on, and I will stop examining my witnesses about
19 that. Let's hear the Prosecution. And if they agree with me that my
20 client, Mr. Naletilic, never forced an inmate to work on his house and
21 around his house, for him, and if he issued a statement to that effect, I
22 will stop questioning, examining my witness. And that's it.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?
24 MR. STRINGER: Well, Mr. President, we don't withdraw the charge
25 or the accusation on that point. I've already read to counsel and to the
1 Trial Chamber precisely what the indictment says in respect of this
2 issue. In our submission, the evidence is -- relevant evidence would go
3 to forced labour, not only in the house, if there were such evidence, but
4 also in the environs of the property in general. So I think that this is
5 a matter for us all to argue about at the end of the case based on the
6 evidence that we have, and I just suggest that we get back to the witness
7 and allow the witness to give his evidence so that we can all argue about
8 what it means and whether the indictment has in fact been proven at the
9 end of the case.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can the Prosecutor at
11 least say that these forced works excluded my client's house and the
12 surroundings of that house? And as for the rest, it may stay. If the
13 Prosecutor insists on that. Let us exclude from that forced labour the
14 house and the surroundings of the house of my client. Let's just deal
15 with that. And then I would be willing to stop my examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the Prosecution said, "In our
17 submission, the evidence is relevant evidence that would go to forced
18 labour, not only in the house, if there were such evidence, but also in
19 the environs of the property in general."
20 Yes, Mr. Par?
21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] In connection with this problem, let me
22 say -- let me put forth the position of our Defence because Vinko
23 Martinovic is charged with a similar accusation of forced labour. This is
24 a principle question when it comes to the examination of this type of
25 witness. What is it all about? The Prosecutor cannot tell us, "I'm going
1 to read the indictment and please examine the witness within the framework
2 of what I have just read," and in such a way prevents any further
3 examination on the part of the Defence. Why can't the Prosecutor say
4 that? The Prosecutor doesn't want anybody else to interpret my
5 indictment. That's why I'm going to read it. Why can't the Prosecutor
6 say that? Because, for a simple reason. The indictment is not precise.
7 So all the objections of this Defence from day one until today with regard
8 to the indictment are based on the fact that the indictment is not
9 precise. How we are going to argue our case, how can we argue the case
10 where it says in summary, words that this is about something and we don't
11 have any specific, any concrete details? Then the Defence has to be
12 allowed to base its defence on what it heard in the examination-in-chief
13 on the part of the Prosecution, and examine their witnesses on the basis
14 of that. And this is the position of our defence.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, at the very beginning of this afternoon's
16 sitting, I remember that I said we are only interested in one question,
17 that is who built that house. Mr. Krsnik, you may ask these questions --
18 any questions concerning with this question on that. But you should not
19 mischaracterise the indictment.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. That's why
21 I have brought this witness here, but I get the objections that you
22 immediately accept. Then you warn me. But I am absolutely clear that
23 these objections are aimed at rechannelling the quality of this
24 examination. We have just lost ten minutes. I have brought this witness
25 to tell us who did the works on the house and who did the works around the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 house. That's why this witness is here, and I could have finished with
2 this witness already, and if the Prosecutor were just to say that we would
3 exclude from that the works on the house and the works around the house,
4 and that would be very simple to deal with.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, I give you the last chance to
6 express your view on this matter.
7 MR. STRINGER: The Prosecution, Mr. President, did not object to
8 testimony from this witness about whether or not others, prisoners worked
9 in the house. I didn't object to that. And Mr. Krsnik can lead four
10 hours of evidence to show that prisoners, if he can call the evidence, let
11 him bring them all to talk for four hours about whether or not prisoners
12 worked on the house. I never objected. I will not object. I objected to
13 his mischaracterisation of testimony of others that's already been heard
14 in this Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think the issue is very clear.
16 You may put your question another way.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Mr. Usher, can we put back the
18 Exhibit 25.2?
19 Your Honour, Judge Diarra, I have to apologise to you, I'm very
20 sorry that I'm not able to say anything to you in French, and whenever I
21 address the Honourable Court, I address the Honourable Judge Clark because
22 I find it for linguistic purposes I find it easier to communicate with
23 her. Don't think that I'm ignoring you. I'm not ignoring you and I
24 apologise for my temperamental gestures.
25 Q. Will you please be so kind -- the left corner of this photo, can
1 you show it to me? If the person were standing here, would he see this
2 house from this corner?
3 A. Gentlemen, you don't have to go there to see that this is
4 impossible. You can tell from this picture that this is impossible. You
5 can see that there is a whole hill standing between these two points.
6 It's impossible. No chance. You can go there and you can see for
7 yourself that it is impossible.
8 Q. Tell me, please, have you personally been here, over the past
9 several years, here between this point and the house, did you walk around
11 A. Yes, I've walked here. A lot of people from Siroki Brijeg go for
12 outings here on weekends.
13 Q. From this point to the house, is there a canal or a channel either
14 filled in or exposed?
15 A. There is no canal or channel. And I would like to say that
16 again. Why don't you go there and see it for yourself? There is simply
17 no canal.
18 Q. During these months, March, April, May, June, July, did you ever
19 see around the house or at the locality that I'm showing you, did you see
20 an inmate, a prisoner?
21 A. Your Honours, I have to get up to tell you this because I was -- I
22 took the oath when standing up, and I took my oath really seriously and I
23 would like to say before you that no single inmate ever came even close to
24 this construction site, and I will give my life for that, if need may be.
25 I'm an intellectual, I'm a Catholic, I would not allow that myself. And
1 if somebody were to ask that from me, I wouldn't be here. I know the
2 Naletilic family very well. It's a honourable family, and no single
3 member of that family would allow something like that to happen. I have
4 to add something else. In the transcript, I saw the term Muslims. I
5 think something like that. Bosniak Muslims. In this group that was
6 working on the Mr. Naletilic's house, there were half Muslims and half
7 Croats. This is a company which worked under us before and after. I can
8 give you a list of the buildings that we built, the Zagrebacka Banka
9 building in Mostar. They built for us. Those were people, those were the
10 people who lived together in Polog village. And I can give you their
11 names and if it is in the interests of this Court to check that, you can
12 easily check all that.
13 Q. And the final two questions: Were you paid? Unless you have a
14 business secret? And can you give us the value of the house?
15 A. Your Honours, sirs, I can tell you that the project was paid for,
16 first we received an advance payment, and finally, everything was paid and
17 we were all -- we also received all of us received a reward. Me first,
18 and then every single man who participated in the works, and as for the
19 value of the works, you are bringing me into a very embarrassing
20 situation. This is my professional secret. I can't give you the value of
21 the works without the consent of the client who paid.
22 Q. Okay. I will not insist on that question. What is the current
23 value of this house, if the owner were to sell it?
24 A. You can't sell this house. This -- I can't ascribe any value to
25 it because it was built in such a place that it is just -- it does not a
1 market value. I don't know anybody who would want to buy a house in this
3 Q. Do you mean in Siroki Brijeg?
4 A. No, I mean on Cigansko Brdo, where there are no other houses, when
5 there is no settlement. This is my profession. I'm a professional, and
6 I wouldn't pay anything for this house.
7 Q. How big is this house, how many square metres?
8 A. This house has -- I have to think -- has about 160 square metres.
9 And I can tell you that it has -- if this is important at all -- it has
10 four rooms which are distributed among two brothers and two sisters. It
11 has a living-room, a small kitchen, a dining-room, a bathroom on the
12 ground floor, a bathroom in the attic, and it has a gallery, I apologise,
13 it has a gallery and a room of some 30 square metres which is for joint
14 lunches of the whole family.
15 Q. With regard to other houses in Siroki Brijeg, is this a small
16 house or a big house?
17 A. My house, and I'm not a rich person in Siroki Brijeg, my house is
18 at least 60 per cent bigger than this house, but, sir, and honourable --
19 Your Honours, this is about the life-style in our houses, are shared by
20 several families. My house is shared by my family, my mother, my father
21 died, and my brother and my brother who lives in Croatia also has a part
22 in this house where he stays when he comes over, over weekends or
24 Q. Do you know who the real owner of this house is, then and
25 nowadays, the land and the house?
1 A. It's the Naletilic family. I was given the project, I was tasked
2 by the Naletilic family, Mr. Naletilic and his brother Miro and their two
3 sisters came and they all chipped in. They all shared ideas. They all
4 gave me minor objections and it was very difficult for me to come up with
5 a final solution because of that. But I would like to add to that
6 the only person who financed the project was Mr. Naletilic because other
7 members of the family are not well off, and I received a personal
8 explanation by Mr. Naletilic that he himself -- he personally would
9 finance the project.
10 Q. My colleague wanted to ask you the following: These Bosniaks,
11 Muslims, they are your employees -- they are the employees of that
13 A. Yes, they were then and they still are. The salaried employees of
14 that company. They performed at least ten jobs before this project and
15 after this project. I can give you their names, their nicknames, if need
16 may be.
17 Q. Did you see Mr. Naletilic talking to them? How did he act towards
18 the workers who were working around the house? Did you see that
19 personally? Do you see Mr. Naletilic in communication with them?
20 A. Mr. Naletilic came to the construction site very rarely. His
21 brother Miro was there all the time. And Mr. Naletilic told me that he
22 had some things to do in Zagreb, he had a company there and he spent a lot
23 of time there. But whenever he came to the construction site, it was the
24 biggest problem for me, because then the work would come to a halt, then
25 they all started joking, drinking beer, and we -- and we didn't work. And
1 I have to say that. The relationship was more than correct. And I don't
2 have anything else to say.
3 Q. Can you give us just one or two names of the workers of Bosniak
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session.
10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] And please can this be redacted?
11 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 MR. STRINGER:
2 Q. If I understand your testimony correctly, the house really isn't
3 worth anything, any money, because it doesn't have some of the basic
4 services, such as water. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. It has no market value except for people who own it.
6 Q. So then, I guess it would have made good sense to try to bring
7 water to this place if it were possible to do so.
8 A. Mr. Prosecutor, yes, but that good sense might cost several
9 million German marks or dollars. That is one can bring water by water
10 tankers for one's whole life and yet find no economic justification to
11 build a water supply system.
12 Q. Would the market value of this property increase at all if in fact
13 it did have running water?
14 A. I think that the market value of this house would go up if only it
15 were about 200 metres lower, and if it were nearer a road.
16 Q. My question was, sir: If in fact the house had a normal water
17 supply, would it be worth significantly more money?
18 A. It would be worth more money but not much more. Yes, it would be
19 more but not much more.
20 Q. Now, Witness, you've testified about the company that you formed
21 and that you ran during the war. Were you a civilian throughout the war
22 in 1992 and 1993?
23 A. No. I was not a civilian. I was a civilian from the moment the
24 war between Serbs and Croats stopped, which was sometime June/July, 1992,
25 until June -- end of June, 1993. During that period of time, I was a
2 Q. Then beginning in June of 1993, did you become a soldier?
3 A. Could you repeat the question? Since when?
4 Q. Beginning in June of 1993, did you become a soldier? And not a
6 A. Yes. Thereabouts, thereabouts.
7 Q. Were you a soldier with the HVO?
8 A. Yes, I was a volunteer in the HVO.
9 Q. Which unit did you belong to?
10 A. My specialty is signals.
11 Q. Did you have prior experience in signals from the JNA, perhaps
12 your compulsory service in the JNA?
13 A. Look, have you finished your question?
14 Q. Yes. I was going to go to the next question.
15 A. [In English] Okay. Thank you.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really do not know
18 where all these questions lead to. This is a classical fishing
19 expedition. Let's go out and see if we can catch something. I do not see
20 what it has to do with the testimony in direct. I never once asked a
21 question about the JNA or anything, nor do I care to know about this. The
22 witness came to testify to some specific facts. My examination took only
23 half an hour. I do not know where this leads to because I see that my
24 learned friend does not know and now he is asking questions to see if he
25 can catch something. I don't see any relevance at all. And what does it
1 have to do with the HVO and if he was in the HVO or wasn't in the HVO, so
2 what? Everybody was in the HVO, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much that you remind me that your
4 direct examination only take about 30 minutes and as we ruled before, we
5 will give equal time to the Prosecution, under cross-examination. As for
6 the questions, Mr. Krsnik, we have come back to this issue once again. I
7 think during the previous witnesses, we, this Trial Chamber, has made a
8 ruling that the cross-examination is not necessarily confined within the
9 questions in the direct examination. The person conducting the
10 cross-examination is entitled to test the credibility of this witness.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, with all due respect,
12 and I always hold in high regard your good sense, but I was not allowed
13 to, that I was not allowed to address subjects that were not addressed by
14 the Prosecutor during the direct examination. And I put that to you.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will take note of your objections. But we'll
17 stick to the rulings we made before.
18 Mr. Stringer, you may proceed.
19 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Despite what counsel
20 said, I actually do think I know where I'm going and I think in about two
21 questions, the Trial Chamber will also know where I'm going.
22 Q. Witness, I want to get back to this very briefly. The unit that
23 were you a member of, the particular unit within the HVO, do you recall
24 the name of the unit?
25 A. Siroki Brijeg Volunteer Home Guard Brigade. It was the first unit
1 that I was in.
2 Q. The"Dobobrami"?
3 A. Not"Dobobrami" but Domobrani.
4 Q. Your duties then as a member of that unit took you away from your
5 work with in your private business that you were trying to run at the
6 same time, I take it?
7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in the beginning, I said that after this
8 unfortunate war broke out, my company worked only now and then, which
9 means that in the company, I had three females, three women, who were
10 under no military duty, and at those times when I wasn't a soldier I
11 worked for the company. But you have to understand another thing. That
12 army is not NATO, it is not an organised army. I repeat that it is the
13 home guard troops, volunteers.
14 Q. I know what the home guard is and I'm not going to ask you about
15 that. My point is this, sir: Beginning in June of 1993, you had duties
16 as a member of this HVO unit, and therefore, you did not spend all of your
17 working hours in your private business, nor did you spend all of your
18 working hours up at the construction site and Mr. Naletilic's house,
20 A. Yes, you are right. Not all the time. And that is why I pointed
21 out that at that time I'd somehow make it to the building site two or
22 three times a week, but I had my foreman, Mr. Vrljic called "Grga," who
23 managed this with workers, I mean all the auxiliary work because
24 all the -- all the chief building, all the construction, was already done
25 by that time.
1 Q. Would you agree with me, sir, therefore, that during those months,
2 June, July, August, of 1993, if Muslim prisoners were working up there in
3 any of the area of the property, it's possible you would not have known
4 about that?
5 A. Impossible. Sir, I tell you that it is impossible, because my
6 foreman was there and in his -- in his, in that whole team, I mean there
7 were always Muslims and Croats, and they were all duly paid. I would have
8 known it the very moment that anything like that happened. But I put it
9 to you that that very moment, I personally would never do anything at that
10 place, at that site. I said it and I said it standing, because that was
11 the oath that I had given before.
12 Q. No one is accusing you of having done anything wrong, sir, okay?
13 My question is this: You were there only two to three times a week during
14 the summer of 1993. And as a result, you don't know what was going on up
15 there all the time. Isn't that true?
16 A. Sir, I know exactly what was going on up there. If somebody did
17 something apart from my workers, well, I would have seen it on the spot.
18 I would have seen if somebody had done a job for which I was paid to do.
19 To begin with, I'd see a change, and secondly, I would have been told
20 about that by my foreman.
21 Q. You first met with Mr. Naletilic and his brother in the fall, I
22 believe, of 1992? No, I'm sorry, let me clarify that. You first met
23 Mr. Naletilic in early 1992, correct?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. And later, toward autumn of 1992, you had more meetings with him
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 as you began to discuss the construction of his house; is that correct?
2 A. Little while ago, I told you we met only a few times, because
3 Mr. Naletilic -- only a couple of times, because Mr. Naletilic, or at
4 least that is what he told me, he very busy he was kept busy by his
5 company in Zagreb and that is why all that had to be done between the
6 investor and the executor all this work, all these affairs were performed
7 by his brother, so it wouldn't be true to say that we met often.
8 Q. You mentioned his brother Miro Naletilic. Was Miro Naletilic a
9 military man, a member of the HVO?
10 A. When, sir? I've just explained it, explained it to you. The HVO,
11 since you asked me about the military, there are two periods of time.
12 There is a short period of time during the war against the Serbs, and
13 there was a big void until --
14 Q. Thank you for clarifying that in my questions to you, sir. Let's
15 confine ourselves to the period of time that you discussed on your direct
16 examination. And let's focus particularly on the autumn of 1992,
17 continuing on through the period of time when the construction was
18 completed, okay? In the autumn of 1992, was Miro Naletilic a member of
19 the HVO?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was he a member of the Kaznjenicka Bojna, the Convicts Battalion?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Mladen Naletilic, during the same period of time, Mladen Naletilic
24 now, Tuta, he was a military man, wasn't he, in the autumn of 1992?
25 A. I never saw Mr. Mladen Naletilic as a military, never, not only
1 then, but generally.
2 Q. He never wore a uniform?
3 A. I never saw him in a uniform.
4 Q. Have you ever heard of the Convicts Battalion?
5 A. Yes, yes, I have.
6 Q. They were based in Siroki Brijeg?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Some members of the unit were based at the tobacco station in
9 Siroki Brijeg?
10 A. Look, in the tobacco station in Siroki Brijeg, there were, or
11 rather in a house, we could call it the small building, was the command of
12 the Domobrani, of the home guards in Siroki Brijeg, and the civil
13 defence, and the medical military service and I know that the Convicts
14 Battalion had their office there. That is all that I know about it.
15 Q. Some of their members were also based it at the Park Hotel?
16 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I really don't know that.
17 Q. In most places, the building season is not during the winter
18 months, and yet this house was constructed during the winter months.
19 A. Sir, you ought to know that our winters are mild. So there is
20 building going on the year round. In our area, summers are not the best
21 time to build anything because it is very hot. And for your information,
22 we are only about 40 kilometres from the coast as the crow flies. We have
23 the Mediterranean climate there.
24 Q. The terrain on which, in the area of this Gypsy Hill is very
25 rough, rocky terrain; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, like the rest of Herzegovina.
2 Q. And looking at this photo, 25.6, I understand that it was in fact
3 necessary to build the house on top of a plateau that was constructed with
4 fill dirt so that the entire plateau had to be raised from the top of the
5 hill in order to build or to have a suitable surface on which to build; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Sir, may I have this photograph once again? And will you then
8 please explain to me precisely what is the problem?
9 Q. I don't think there is a problem. There is just a question.
10 JUDGE CLARK: I think it's called building a raft.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand.
12 JUDGE CLARK: In building terms, when you have to build a flat
13 surface, it's called a raft, R-A-F-T, in English any way, I think.
14 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Judge Clark. I didn't know that.
15 JUDGE CLARK: Years of litigation in civil engineering cases.
16 MR. STRINGER:
17 Q. Witness, during the direct examination you were pointing over to
18 the left-hand side of the photograph, indicating that it was actually
19 necessary to raise the surface in order to create a plateau on which the
20 house was situated.
21 A. I see. Now I understand what you mean. Well, I simply have to
22 now deliver you a short lecture on civil engineering, because I can see
23 that you are not particularly familiar with this.
24 Q. You don't need to deliver a short lecture. I'm sorry to interrupt
25 but I'm going to be limited to about six more minutes, okay? So we are
1 going to have to take the lecture for another time. The only question is
2 this, sir, the special work that needed to be done to situate the house
3 on this site, I would think, dramatically increased the cost of this
4 building project. Would that be correct?
5 A. Well, not dramatically. And that is why we, the designers, use
6 brains, you know. If you look at this photograph, the house is built in
7 the front part, away from the supporting wall. A house must have a solid
8 foundations. So one cannot build it on the fill ground. And we did
9 intelligently, when we built the foundations here, we transferred this
10 dirt to this area to level it. And you also have to understand that we
11 have cheap labour. So that the work of this kind does not cost much. I
12 hope I was short and clear, if that is enough.
13 Q. Now, getting back to the terrain itself, this rough, rocky
14 terrain, because of that, is that one of the reasons why it would
15 cost so much money to actually dig a line and to bring water up to the
17 A. I just explained it to you, a little bit earlier, that this whole
18 hill is about 500 metres higher than the place from which one should draw
19 water. I'm telling you that the town, as such, does not have the water
20 supply. I mean water mains are lacking. You know. If we had water mains
21 with some big pumps that could then pump water up there, but for the time
22 being, it is impossible to do it. And we really have good water supply
23 only in the centre of the town. We are talking about central water
24 supply, with all the mains and all that. The problem is not the
25 individual pipe. It all must be part of a system. It must be built into
1 a system. I hope you are following me.
2 Q. The cost of bringing water to that house would have been
3 significantly less if the labour was free. Would you agree with me on
4 that point? If labour was not an item?
5 A. Look, it would bring the cost down in any -- yes, of course it
6 would. Because if you don't have to pay for labour, then naturally the
7 cost goes down.
8 Q. Thank you, sir.
9 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, any re-examination? Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very briefly, because I am always
12 happy to leave sometime for you, Your Honours.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:
14 Q. [Interpretation] [Interpretation] Just two things to clear up
15 which I think are vague. Did you use a system that Judge Clark
16 mentioned or did you use solid foundations?
17 A. I said very clearly that the house was built over a solid
18 foundation. That is the only way possible to build it.
19 Q. And is the problem -- when we talk about the water supply system,
20 is labour the only problem? That is, that labour who will dig it
21 manually? Or can one use the machinery to do that? And besides, you're a
22 civil engineer so tell me, to build a water supply system there, if Siroki
23 Brijeg has a water supply system, would that then solve or make easier the
24 problem for the villagers?
25 A. Mr. Krsnik I have to explain it to you.
1 Q. Well, please explain it to the Chamber, the water supply?
2 A. The water supply system is a system, and it has its primary
3 installations, that is the mains and secondary wells, or to make it
4 simple, pipes, pipes are large diameter pipes as prescribed and we must
5 have hydraulic pumps and that is the prerequisite for the further
6 development of any water supply system. Now in all this, the share of
7 labour is very small. In the overall effort. What costs are the
8 reservoirs, the pumps that will pump this water to higher elevations, that
9 is -- special lines in our area but in Siroki Brijeg, the problem is that
10 we lack this chief, central reservoir, we do not have the mains which
11 would supply the whole territory of the town. And only one part of the
12 town has running water the year round. All the other parts, and
13 especially in summer months, the largest part of the town does not have
14 any running water, not let alone something that is about 500 metres
16 Q. Now, yes, I think I understand. And I believe that Their Honours
17 understand it too. Thank you very much. I have no further questions,
18 thank you for coming?
19 JUDGE LIU: Questions from the Judges? Judge Diarra?
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes.
22 Thank you, Mr. President. Witness, I'd like to know after the building
23 was constructed, did you visit -- you said that during the construction,
24 you visited the site two or three times a week, but after that, did
25 anything -- did you have any reason to go to the building, to see what was
1 going on with regard to the maintenance, that is repair, gardening work,
2 and so on and so forth? That is, was there any means of knowing who were
3 people who were there at the time when members of Mr. Naletilic's family
4 there to perform those jobs?
5 A. I'll try to be very brief. Any -- any facility, any building, any
6 project, that we finished, we are also bound by our contract to, with in
7 the warranty period, which is about two years usually, once we finish with
8 the works, there are always some minor fill -- minor breakdowns that we
9 undertake to remove at our cost. And I believe this is a very good
10 question. I remember specifically in the case of this house, for
11 instance, the pipes were clogged and we had the problem that some windows
12 were not watertight and we had some problems on the roof because it was
13 leaking. And we are bound by contract, or rather I am bound, to put all
14 these things right within -- for two years. As for the maintenance which
15 you mentioned, Mr. Naletilic's brother, whom I know very well, he looked
16 after the maintenance but it came down to mowing the grass. The grass, if
17 you saw the photograph, that was about it. But for two years after the
18 completion of the construction, it is our duty to remove all the
19 breakdowns and to put them, to repair it all. So I hear that the bathroom
20 is not working because a water pipe is clogged, so that is my mistake.
21 That is the mistake of people who did that. But ultimately it is my
22 mistake and I'm contract-bound to remove all such breakdowns, not only in
23 the case of that house. We always do rounds of all the buildings because
24 after one completes the building there are always some unforeseeable
25 breakdowns or failures that one can not foresee whilst the construction is
1 going on.
2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm ask the interpreters for five more minutes
5 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you, Mr. President, I'll try to be very
6 brief. I understood you to say, sir, that your works were completed in
7 accordance with the contract, subject of course to any fault that is were
8 reported by mid-April when the family moved in.
9 A. By mid-April, by mid-April, approximately, I can't really say that
10 it was the 15th, for instance, but by mid-April, we've finished the main
11 works, and what else we had to do? We had to build the supporting walls,
12 the auxiliary ones, the gate, the fence around the property. Then if you
13 could see the photograph, the access road, which is -- for which we used
14 flag stone, the stone that we found there, and these were all
15 supplementary works performed by two or three men. And they had nothing
16 to do with the building itself, the building could be used at that time.
17 So this kind of work lasted for another two or three months slowly.
18 JUDGE CLARK: I think you've answered my next question. I wanted
19 to know were the works after the house was totally completed and the
20 family had moved in which included the fencing the gates and the access
21 road, was that part and parcel of your building contract?
22 A. Of the border area? And then the answer is yes. I was
23 responsible for the whole project. Including that and it was done by my
25 JUDGE CLARK: We have to watch the clock. The next question I
1 wanted to ask you is was there a septic tank attached to this house?
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE CLARK: And how did you pipe the waste from the house to the
4 septic tank?
5 A. I can explain that if I'm -- if I can see the photograph again.
6 JUDGE CLARK: What I wanted to know basically was the septic tank
7 on the plateau or was it on a lower level? So was the piping downwards?
8 A. The septic tank? The septic tank, is if you noticed the woods to
9 the right of the plateau, that is the lowest point, and that is where the
10 septic tank is. And that is where the -- that is the points up to which
11 we built in pipes. I can show it to you on the photograph.
12 JUDGE CLARK: So I take it the pipes were dropped into channels
13 that had been excavated?
14 A. Not were, they were dug as the building was constructed, because
15 we have to also build all the pipes into the -- into the building. We
16 cannot build a house first and then break it down to build in pipes.
17 JUDGE CLARK: I want to you answer my questions simply because all
18 the interpreters and stenographers are here beyond the normal time. How
19 did you pipe the water from the reservoir that you told us that you
20 constructed and that was filled on a regular basis by water tanks? How
21 did you pipe that water to the house? Did that go through channels?
22 A. Through channels, which we had to dig before we built the access
23 road. These pipes go next to the access road, if you remember the
24 photograph, and it is clearly marked, and that is how it has to be done.
25 In case such a pipe burst then we have to know its exact location. So if
1 you want me to give you the technical details about the type of the of
2 pipes then I will be happy to do that.
3 JUDGE CLARK: When you say that this house does not have a water
4 supply what you meant was that it was not connected to a main water
5 supply, not that it didn't have water on tap and all the luxury that goes
6 with running water?
7 A. Of course, but I thoughts that was clear. There was no outside
8 water supply from the main system. I explained that the water is tanked
9 into the reservoir and then we used the natural slope to bring it to the
10 house, and I said that there were bathrooms in the house, so it's all
12 JUDGE CLARK: So this house then I would suggest to you was in no
13 different a situation than 90 per cent of the other houses in the country
14 side around Siroki Brijeg. That one built a stone reservoir or a tank.
15 One had it filled by a tanker and one built channels to sluice the water
16 to inside the house.
17 A. I think if you knew what the area looked like, then you would
18 understand what I was trying to say. That house has a narrow, stone-paved
19 access road. Not every car can reach that house, you know. I mean there
20 is no asphalt road leading to that house. And that is the basic thing.
21 Nor will it ever be built.
22 JUDGE CLARK: It's a fairly isolated location, is that you mean?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE CLARK: You've been very helpful, thank you?
25 A. Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Witness.
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, excuse me, because of
3 the questions posed by Her Honour, that permits us to say how much the
4 building cost. So perhaps it would be interesting. How much did he pay
5 for that house?
6 Further re-examination by Mr. Krsnik
7 A. Well, once again, I can not remember the exact figure, Your
8 Honours. I really do not remember the exact figure but the value of the
9 works was about [redacted]
13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May this be redacted, please because
14 I've forgotten. It is after all a business matter so can the figures be
15 redacted from the transcript, please?
16 JUDGE LIU: Well --
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I've forgotten. Thank
19 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination on this particular question,
20 Mr. Stringer?
21 MR. STRINGER: No, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Thank you, Witness, for coming
23 here to give us your evidence. We all wish you good success in your
24 future. Later on, when the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you
25 out of the room. We all wish you a good trip back home.
1 We'll resume tomorrow afternoon.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
4 7.12 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
5 the 30th day of May, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.