1 Friday, 14 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Shall we have the witness, please?
9 [The witness entered court]
10 WITNESS: IVAN BAGARIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry for keeping you waiting for quite a long
15 time in The Hague. Are you ready to continue?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Krsnik. You may continue.
18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Thank
19 you. Thank you for everything. And I will now continue with my
20 examination. Before commencing, I would ask the Trial Chamber to allow
21 me to inform the witness of a decision and perhaps it would be best to
22 go into private session, just in case.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.
24 [Private session]
12 Pages 12367-12370 –redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 Examined by Mr. Krsnik: [Continued]
9 Q. Witness we spoke about the negotiations in Jablanica at the last
10 hearing and we spoke about Sovici. I would like to finish with this today
11 and I would like to show you a cassette and just show you two photographs,
12 so that you can become familiar with them and then we can move on to other
14 A. If I may, there is just one sentence I would like to say. First
15 of all I need to provide the Judge with some information. In the
16 documents that I had and the reports that I had which were all muddled up,
17 I said that that meeting was held on the 5th of May, which is not correct
18 because the report was written on that date, on the 5th of May, but the
19 meeting took place one day earlier, that is to say on the 4rth of May.
20 This is just for the sake of precision. That's one thing.
21 And the second matter is that I am a little -- I regret that the
22 Judge said that the two reports were more important than my testimony.
23 That's what I understood. In the following two or five minutes, or in
24 that case, I misunderstood something but if necessary, I will write -- I'm
25 quite capable of writing a report here for about two minutes which relates
1 to this part which I gave testimony about.
2 JUDGE CLARK: If I may, Dr. Bagaric, what I said on Tuesday, I
3 believe, was that it was a pity that the two reports which we had referred
4 to the other two villages because the village you visited is the subject
5 matter of the indictment. That's what I said. I didn't say that the
6 reports were more important. I said it was a great pity that you hadn't
7 actually written the report which we had, but as you said, we have you
8 here to give your testimony. It's just it might have refreshed your
9 memory to see a contemporaneous report but that's the only comment I was
11 JUDGE LIU: And if I may add, that we believe that the live
12 testimony in this Tribunal is more important than any report.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you very much, and I would
14 like to apologise to Judge Clark. Obviously, I misunderstood her. I
16 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Mr. Krsnik.
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could the
18 technicians please show the video which we prepared? It's Exhibit -- it's
19 video clip number 5 from the Prosecution. The OTP. And I will then
20 say-- because we've already seen, we've already viewed this video it might
21 not be necessary to show the entire video but just part of it and then
22 we will ask certain questions.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this video clip
25 unfortunately has no sound, has no text, although you can see the people
1 are speaking in it.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] We can stop here. We can pause
4 here. We won't need it any more.
5 Q. Dr. Bagaric, can you remember anything with regard to this
6 cassette? Is that the meeting, that event, the visit to the school in
7 Sovici that you spoke about?
8 A. I tried to follow this carefully, this cassette, and to recognise
9 myself. I think I have the impression that I am -- that I recognise
10 myself in that group. However, at the moment, I can't categorically state
11 that that was me but I think that one person in the uniform, I think that
12 was myself. But I think it is more important or rather equally important
13 I think the fact that we visited that area is equally important and that
14 we visited it together with UN representatives and with BH Army
15 representatives, and that the representatives of the army, after that
16 visit, they were very, very content. They didn't find any of the elements
17 that the HVO had been accused of, that the HVO had been accused of having
18 committed there.
19 Q. Witness, Mr. Bagaric, I apologise, Dr. Bagaric, could you remember
20 whether it was on that day, what you saw on the cassette, was that the
21 visit? Did you recognise anyone else on the video? If not I can show it
22 once more because I recognised you. Did you recognise anyone else out of
23 the HVO -- among the HVO delegation?
24 A. I think so but I don't think it would be bad to show the video
25 again, if there is more to be seen and then I might be able to give a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 definite answer.
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the
3 technicians to start again from the beginning and if the lights could
4 perhaps be adjusted, if the intensity of the lights could be reduced a
5 bit so that we may see this video more easily?
6 Q. And could you say whom you can recognise in the video, if you do
7 recognise someone? And also whether that was -- that took place on the
8 day concerned, the 4th of May.
9 [Videotape played]
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I'm in the tape. I've
11 got a Red Cross mark on my left shoulder.
12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we pause and rewind a bit? And
13 would the technician be so kind --
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there's no issue whether he was at this
16 particular meeting. It's not disputed.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But we would like to see it any way.
18 MR. SCOTT: That's fine, of course.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could you rewind a bit, please?
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You could comment perhaps?
23 A. Yes, well the person facing us on his left shoulder, he has a sign
24 of the medical headquarters or rather of the International Red Cross. If
25 you show the cassette, the video, then you will see it.
1 Q. The first man on the stairs, the first man whose face you can
2 see? Well, we can show it, we can carry on showing it and then please say
3 whom else that you recognise. And that was on the 4th of May; is that
5 A. Yes, that was on the 4th of May, yes. After the meeting in
6 Jablanica, in UNPROFOR's headquarters, UNPROFOR's base.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Could we please continue showing it?
8 [Videotape played]
9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Yes, now the sign -- the insignia can be seen.
11 A. Yes. I can see Petkovic there.
12 Q. That's General Petkovic?
13 A. Yes, that's right.
14 Q. Did you recognise the person writing?
15 A. Unfortunately, no, I didn't.
16 Q. Could you be so kind and rewind it a bit? Because yesterday, you
17 weren't sure either. Could the technicians please rewind it a bit?
18 A. Perhaps that's Rasim Delic but I'm not sure.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Stop.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Sir, this gentleman who is facing us?
23 A. Unfortunately, I couldn't say who he is at this moment. I can't
24 recognise him.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Perhaps we don't need the video any more.
1 The important thing was that you recognised yourself and that that was the
2 event in question.
3 I have also prepared two photographs but I don't think it's
4 necessary to show them any more. Perhaps one, just one photograph.
5 That's Exhibit 8.3. So would the usher be so kind as to show you the
6 photograph and could you tell us whether you know what the photograph
8 A. Well, last time I clearly said, and I would like to repeat that
9 now, I want to be absolutely clear and honest when giving testimony here,
10 and I won't make any assumptions of any kind. We passed through Doljani
11 and through Sovici. I think that this is Sovici but I can't state so for
12 certain. I think that it's Sovici but it's really not a problem to
13 establish whether this is Sovici or not. I was travelling in an armoured
14 personnel carrier and I didn't have such a panorama in front of me. We
15 are talking about events that took place over ten years ago.
16 Q. But as you go from Jablanica towards Sovici, which is the first
18 A. I think that first of all you come to Doljani and then Sovici.
19 Q. That's all, as far as this subject is concerned. Thank you,
21 I'd like to move on to another subject. Could you tell this Trial
22 Chamber what the relation with the Muslims was, with the Muslims in
23 Mostar, with regard to help, cooperation in hospitals, aid? Did you have
24 any contact with Arif Pasalic and with the eastern part of Mostar? And
25 perhaps we could prepare the documents for this immediately. I'm going to
1 ask the Registrar if she would be so kind as to prepare the documents
2 D1/352, 351, 356, 380, 353, 378, and 355.
3 I'm going to ask you to look at these documents and whenever you
4 talk about a certain document, please mention its number first. You will
5 find it in the bottom right side of the page and then you give us the
6 comment, the document need not be read because it speaks for itself but
7 can you please briefly comment on any of these documents?
8 A. Can I please start immediately after this meeting, i.e., after the
9 return from Konjic and Jablanica, so that was a few days later, or maybe
10 even on the following day or two days later. We doctors were very
11 displeased and very dissatisfied with the Bosniak side, Muslim side, which
12 did not allow us to go to these villages where we knew were -- there were
13 many injured and killed people. So we expressed that dissatisfaction in
14 the form of a protest. I did not know what to do so we wrote to
15 international organisations. We appealed for assistance. We organised a
16 press conference, to which we invited the eastern side and we appealed to
17 their cooperation because we had a foreboding that the situation would go
18 from bad to worse. So this position was dictated by us from the HVO who
19 were doctors, and I thought that we had the right to claim certain things,
20 as doctors, and in order for us to confirm our position as doctors, and to
21 confirm that we were doing what we were supposed to do, that we were
22 treating everybody. I launched several initiatives for establishing ties
23 among the medical personnel on both sides of Mostar, which already at the
24 time was divided because the army had already been formed, their doctors
25 already were on the strength of their units, and in a certain way, I
1 wanted to establish ties. I thought that I could prevent a conflict or
2 maybe if not prevent, then its consequences could be mitigated if the
3 doctors teamed up together and if they held a front, and I said that
4 openly and this was aired on all the media, on both the western side and
5 the eastern side, and I got a reply by Mr. Arif Pasalic, who I can't give
6 you precisely what he said before I see the document. But in any case,
7 Mr. Pasalic said, "Okay, you are offering us cooperation. Give us this
8 and that. Give us medicines, give us equipment, give us personnel," and
9 so on and so forth. I'll try -- and if these are -- the documents that I
10 have I in front of you, I will try to comment on these documents and I'll
11 try to clarify each and every one of them.
12 JUDGE LIU: Dr. Bagaric, I believe you are talking about document
13 D1/352 and D1/351.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I apologise. I don't
15 know before I actually see the documents, I don't have -- still have them
16 in front of me.
17 In front of me, I have several documents which unfortunately are
18 not complete. Some of these documents, for example, document 351, in
19 which Mr. Arif Pasalic wrote on the 5th of June, 1993, and we are talking
20 about the period after the events that I previously described, excuse me,
21 I have to put these papers in a time order. Here I can see a document
22 dating back to the 3rd of June, in which I say with reference to
23 information on the lack of medicaments and medical supplies in the eastern
24 part of the town controlled by you, we are ready to provide you
25 immediately and unconditionally. So I'm talking about document D1/352 but
1 there was another document which at this moment, I don't have, and it is
2 relevant to the request by Mr. Pasalic to give him medicines.
3 On the 3rd of June, I wrote back with reference to information on
4 the lack of medicaments and medical supplies in the eastern part of the
5 town, we are ready to provide you immediately and unconditionally with the
6 indispensable medicines. And then on the 5th of 6, I received a document
7 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, i.e., from Arif Pasalic, he sent it
8 to me, i.e., to us, in which he states exactly what they needed. That was
9 on the 5th of June. There is also an order dating backs to the 7th of
10 June, 1993, this is D1/356, in which we issued an order to give medicines
11 to -- medications to the BH Army according to specification. And this
12 document shows just one example of such a specification of medicaments
13 which were issued. These are D1/380 and there is another document D1/355,
14 in which is actually a reply, our reply to one of the requests and
15 according to our reply, we were ready, we had prepared medicaments, we had
16 given them to UNPROFOR for transport and we also explained why we could
17 not send a team of doctors to the other side.
18 And the reason was the following: Since the hospital in the
19 western part of Mostar was much better equipped than the one in the
20 eastern part of Mostar, we had a huge lack of personnel, a lot
21 of doctors had left the hospital. That is why it says in this document,
22 "With regard to the teams of documents, we would like to inform you that
23 we do not have any volunteers, neither among the Muslim nor Croat
24 personnel." And we also say that our capacities are not high and so on
25 and so forth. And I also explain that what -- that the conditions for
1 caring for the wounded population were much better here than there and
2 that is why we propose you for the Nth time to send all your wounded to
3 HVO war hospitals where they shall be given the same treatment as given to
4 it our combatants in accordance with the Hippocratic oath and medical
5 ethics. The identical treatment is guaranteed to you by the HVO,
6 supreme medical headquarters, and myself personally and this was signed
7 by Colonel Tugomir Gveric and myself. So this is a set of documents which
8 are clear proof on cooperation with the eastern side, i.e., our attempt to
9 extend our hand to them, to calm the situation, and our attempt to
10 establish ties irrespective of the conflict, because doctors always
11 thought, me personally including, that this conflict between Muslims and
12 Croats is unnecessary and that it will result in nothing but victims, and
13 that later on proved to be correct. There is another document in this
14 set, I think it was on my table here last time before we broke the
15 session, and it was our offer to the eastern side to offer the services of
16 our hospital.
17 Q. I'm sorry to be interrupting you. This is a document that I
18 wanted to show you later on. And can I please ask our Madam Registrar to
19 give the witness D1/362, to the witness. I.e., 1/371 and 1/373. I
20 believe that one of these documents is the one that you were referring
21 to. I don't know it off my head. That's all I propose, three documents,
22 and you'll be able to see for yourself.
23 A. Your Honours, there were numerous attempts primarily for the
24 doctors to do their job and to help each other, to treat everybody equally
25 across the board. That's one thing. Another thing, we thought that it
1 would be mutually beneficial, that it would be a great service to the
2 eastern part of Mostar, where the situation was even worse, and we also
3 thought that such a move could contribute to the situation in the entire
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina being -- becoming calmer.
5 Q. Why?
6 A. Because at the same time, we Croats were in an equally bad
7 situation in central Bosnia. That's why. We thought that this example of
8 cooperation in Mostar could have spread and could have extended to
9 Travnik, Bugojno, Zepce, Zenica, and everywhere else. In front of me, I
10 finally have, Your Honours, this request number D1/362. I believe that
11 this request and if this is not too pretentious to say, I believe that
12 this is a historical document. During the worst conflicts which were
13 under way after a number of attempts on the part of doctors to establish
14 ties in order to mitigate suffering, we come to the date 16 September,
15 1993, and unfortunately, a long time had lapsed before our initial request
16 and this request but we did not know when the war would stop, whether
17 it would stop at all. In this request, I am writing not to Pasalic but to
18 UNPROFOR, to the Spanish Battalion, and in this request I tell them, we
19 ask to you mediate in the offer to the Muslim side for admission and
20 treatment of civilians, particularly women and children, to the regional
21 war hospital in Mostar, as well as other HVO hospitals.
22 Q. Dr. Bagaric, kindly, if you could slow down. Please understand
23 that this is all translated into two languages, and it is very important
24 that your testimony be conveyed as well -- as good as possible. It is
25 very difficult if you don't speak slowly. Please slow down. Whatever you
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 say is translated into two languages.
2 A. In this document, it says that Muslims are guaranteed the same
3 treatment as our civilians and injured. We proposed that our work is
4 controlled by the International Red Cross, EC monitors and UNPROFOR. We
5 are doing this for one and only one reason, and that is the humanitarian
6 reason. So my concept was that we could, contrary to every logic of the
7 war and contrary to the rules of the war, because this hospital was in the
8 middle of the city, I thought that we could put our hospital under the UN
9 control. This would have been done by UN guaranteeing for the security
10 and safety of the hospital, that nobody could enter the hospital without
11 their approval. The UN had enough strength in Mostar to implement that.
12 They had enough armoured carriers to encircle the hospital.
13 Q. Can you please slow down, Dr. Bagaric, once again. Dr. Bagaric,
14 once again, I apologise, I had to warn you. I understand you absolutely
15 well, all of us who understand Croatian can follow you but we have
16 noticed, and I have experienced that if our translators, interpreters, who
17 are trying to follow you and convey the message, sometimes your message
18 will be lost in translation and the transcript will convey a completely
19 different message. Please bear that in it mind when you give your
20 testimony. The Honourable Court cannot follow you for various reasons
21 because they are not familiar with the area as well as we are, and please
22 bear that in mind.
23 A. I apologise, Your Honours. I have the impression that I have
24 already -- that you have already lost patience with me because this
25 testimony has taken a long time, and that is maybe the explanation why I
1 am speeding up. I shall repeat just briefly and I will -- and on that
2 note, we thought that the consequences of the war could be mitigated, that
3 we could contribute towards the end of the war between the two sides of --
4 both of which were nothing but the victims of the conflict in the area of
5 the former Yugoslavia. Here I mean the Muslims and the Croats.
6 Unfortunately, everybody was the victim of that war. We thought that we
7 could offer our hospital as a symbol and as a reality, that we -- that
8 UN -- UNPROFOR forces could protect this institution from all those who
9 found our offer unacceptable. We also thought that it would have been
10 good for the International Red Cross to enter the hospital and to control
11 its work. And we thought that this would gain us the trust of the other
13 Q. Dr. Bagaric, I have to interrupt you. We do not have much more
14 time. I believe that we only have about half an hour and there are two or
15 three other things that I would like to ask you. I just want to ask you,
16 we heard testimony here that you and the medical headquarters, that you
17 offered the services of your hospital but it was in the front line and
18 it was very hypocritical of you to do that?
19 A. I did not understand your comment.
20 Q. It is not a comment it is a question? We heard the testimony in
21 this courtroom --
22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm going to make a similar
23 objection that I made the other day. It is not necessary or in our
24 respectful submission appropriate for counsel to make characterisations of
25 prior testimony. He can simply put questions to the witness. I also
1 believe it's not a proper characterisation of prior evidence to use the
2 word hypocritical. I don't recall any witness using that terminology.
3 And again I object to the argumentative nature of the questions put,
4 neutral questions, factual questions can very simply be put to the
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, just ask some questions.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think I have the
8 right, as counsel, to contradict -- I have the right to contradiction.
9 These are the institutes which have existed since Roman law and all
10 the legal systems have adopted it, both the Anglo-Saxon as well as the
11 continental law. This witness is here to refute some allegations, whether
12 he's going to refute them or not, we will hear from him. We will hear it
13 in his testimony but we were all here, we were present to hear the
14 testimony, according to which the hospital was offered but the Muslims did
15 not want to expect that because it was hypocritical. Maybe it was not the
16 word that was used but they knew exactly that that hospital could not be
17 used because it was on the very front line in the city of Mostar. I
18 believe that this is what was said, we also remember who said it, and I
19 would like to ask Dr. Bagaric whether this is true.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you ever the full right to
21 contradict any testimony by the Prosecution's witness, but if there is an
22 objection from the other side, I believe that you better ask simple
23 questions. Eventually the result is the same.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you for your instructions. I'm
25 sure to follow them, Your Honours.
1 Q. So can you please reply to the answer whether this hospital indeed
2 was not in service and whether it indeed was on the very front line?
3 A. I already said during my testimony that the hospital was on the
4 front line. It was on the very line of fire.
5 Q. Can you please explain to the Honourable Court how many hospitals
6 were there in Mostar?
7 A. Please do not interrupt me. So the hospital was on the line.
8 However, that hospital that we referred to as the war hospital, because it
9 worked under the war circumstances, treated all patients, civilians and
10 soldiers, and it was located, I believe, in five different places, some of
11 which were less safe and the others were more safe. When we offered the
12 services of the hospital, we did not choose and we did not make a
13 distinction. We did not say we are going to give this part to you and we
14 are going to keep this part to ourselves. We offered the services of the
15 same hospital where we treated ours, so to say, and who is the one to say
16 who is ours, who is anybody else's. So our wounded, we offered the
17 services of that same hospital to everybody else, to bear the same risks
18 and to benefit from the same results of treatment. Therefore, the
19 allegation that it was hypocritical to offer those services can only be
20 answered by a question. Is it not hypocritical when somebody asks for
21 medical supplies, not to give them to him? Is it also hypocritical that
22 if somebody needs a hospital, not to offer it to him? And you are in a
23 position to do so. At the end of the day, is it not hypocritical that
24 after this war, that we went through in Bosnia and Herzegovina, there are
25 again wars being waged all over the world, and again people get killed in
1 the same way, have the same needs for medical treatment and our experience
2 with that, and our messages in connection with that, are not being taken
3 on board.
4 Q. Dr. Bagaric, can you please answer me this? Have you ever
5 received any answer, either via UNPROFOR or through any other mediator
6 about that cooperation? Was that cooperation ever implemented? What
8 A. We never received a reply.
9 Q. Let's move on. So that hospital which was on the front line, is
10 it -- its name the old surgical centre?
11 A. Yes, its name is the old surgical centre.
12 Q. And was it in service all the time or not?
13 A. It was used all the time, throughout the entire war, that surgical
14 department was where people were operated upon, where they were treated,
15 and then the injured -- the injured people would be referred to the
16 hospital on the hill, which was much safer at the time.
17 Q. Can you please tell me whether you did anything else, whether you
18 undertook anything else with international organisations in order to
19 establish cooperation? I would like to ask Madam Registrar to prepare
20 350, 358 and 377.
21 A. Throughout the war in Mostar, there were a number of attempts on
22 our part in order to implement and do good with the help of international
23 organisations, in order to help people whoever came to us doctors in the
24 HVO or me personally during the war in Mostar, and whoever had a proposal
25 for us as to what should be done, what could be done, in order to reduce
1 the suffering and the pain, would have received our cooperation. We would
2 participate in that.
3 Q. Could you please comment on these documents, everybody in the
4 courtroom has these documents and they can read them for themselves.
5 A. Very briefly, document D1/350 and document D1/358, are very
6 important documents which testify to our attempts, even before the
7 conflict with the Muslim side started, so these documents go back to the
8 end of 1992. Mostar was visited by Mr. Robert Simon. He was President of
9 the International American, I believe, organisation, IMC which stands for
10 the International Medical Corps. He had a proposal for us. He told us we
11 should express our willingness and interest to establish cooperation
12 between us doctors, Croats and Muslims alike, that is the Croatian Defence
13 Council and the BH Army. I took the opportunity, because I was a member
14 of the parliament at the time, and I addressed Mr. Mile Akmadzic, who was
15 at the time the Prime Minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I asked him,
16 in document D1/358, to mediate and to offer to the chief of the BH Army,
17 the chief of the medical personnel of that army, cooperation on our
18 behalf, and that is the Exhibit D1/350, in which I requested -- I asked my
19 colleague to write a document which would show our common wish for
20 cooperation, and I told him I would co-sign that document.
21 Q. And did you speak to Mr. Simon? Did you inform him of the course
22 that that operation was taking, et cetera?
23 A. After that, Dr. Simon made certain efforts to help both the Croats
24 and the Muslims. However, he didn't obtain that document signed by the
25 two of us, because once again, I didn't have an answer. I didn't have a
2 Q. Why did Mr. Simon make such a request? What was the reason?
3 A. I think he went to the Croatian embassy in America, I don't know
4 how, through what line. He asked for contact with some of the doctors,
5 some of the Croatian doctors in Bosnia. The reasons he gave were that he
6 had had experience -- that he had had experience as a doctor in many
7 international conflicts, and he said that after visiting Bosnia, he would
8 probably give testimony before the American congress with regard to the
9 situation in Bosnia. He thought that if we reached such an agreement, we
10 would be unable to prevent any possible conflict, and that he would give
11 testimony before the congress and we would get international help for our
12 cooperation. Even if this only consisted of verbal support.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you ever anything else to say? Because I would
14 like to move on to another subject. The break is approaching.
15 A. Well, I'm under a lot of pressure because time is short. There is
16 also a story, one of many stories, about Mostar, and which relates to
17 cooperation with individuals. For example, there is a well known story
18 about Sally Baker.
19 Q. I was just going to ask you about that, but if we have finished
20 with this subject, I would like to move on.
21 A. Yes, I think we have.
22 Q. Since you have mentioned Sally Baker, could the Registrar please
23 prepare documents D1/349 and document D1/383? And then could you inform
24 the Trial Chamber of Sally Baker, tell them who Sally Baker is.
25 A. Sally Baker is one of -- one of the many persons who went to that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 war area and tried to help and to reduce the suffering, et cetera. Among
2 other things, she asked for authorisation, or rather for help, to go to
3 the eastern side of Mostar and to assist, provide with aid, or rather
4 withdraw and treat in hospitals several children who were ill on the
5 eastern side.
6 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. Could we also show document
7 D1/388 and put it on the ELMO? Those are photographs from that book.
8 D1/388. That's not the document.
9 A. I would first of all like to comment on this document, D1/349.
10 Q. But very briefly, please.
11 A. That's part of a series of documents that I had to issue in order
12 to provide some kind of aid, to provide each other with some kind of aid.
13 Sally Baker didn't have a vehicle. She asked us for a vehicle. I
14 explained that we had about 80 vehicles that had been destroyed in the
15 course of the conflict in Mostar and that we had no vehicles. But she
16 said, "In that case, I can't go to the other side." I had no choice. I
17 thought that the mission was an important one and that it was my duty to
18 help her. So I ordered that she be given a vehicle. That happened on
19 about 3 occasions I think.
20 Q. Could you please have a look at the photographs on your right-hand
21 side and could you say -- could you tell us what they depict? And here
22 you've been called "Baby brigadier." Could you comment on that? Did you
23 have the rank of brigadier and why "Baby brigadier"?
24 A. I think baby, well that's something she wrote in the book because
25 at the time I was ten years younger, and in her opinion, she thought I was
1 some kind of a child who was in the war, who was helping, who was treating
2 patients, et cetera. The second photograph is a photograph taken just
3 before she left for the eastern side, before she went to the eastern
4 side. What is most interesting here is perhaps the fact that she
5 succeeded in taking -- in bringing in about six children in one ambulance,
6 and their mothers too. And it's very important to say that when she
7 brought them over to our side, she wanted to deliver them to UNPROFOR and
8 have UNPROFOR take them somewhere, where they could be treated. But
9 UNPROFOR refused to do so. So once again, she contacted me, and asked me
10 for help. I suggested the hospital in Mostar, but the relatives or rather
11 the children's mothers wanted to leave Mostar and go to Split. At that
12 point, I asked the chief nurse of the Split hospital, a good guardian
13 angel of all those from Bosnia-Herzegovina, her name was Marija Zupanovic,
14 who took in those children and their mothers, and they continued to be
15 provided with treatment in the hospital in Split. And some of them
16 went abroad.
17 Q. Let's move on to another subject, if we can deal with it before
18 the break. And I would like to ask Your Honours to allow me to continue
19 for about ten or 15 minutes and I think that I will then be able to
20 conclude the matter. Should I have a break now or should I continue?
21 Very well. Let's turn to the 9th of May, 1993, in Mostar. 9th of May,
22 1993. What are you aware of? Where were you? It would be best for you
23 to talk about it, if we finished with the subject of Sally Baker. If
24 there is anything else you would like to say?
25 A. No, not at the moment because I think it would be a waste of
2 Q. When you mention the 9th of May, are you referring to the date
3 when the conflict in Mostar began?
4 A. Yes. Because I don't know the dates any more.
5 A. Yes, yes, that's right? Well, one day earlier, a few days prior
6 to that date, I noticed, and the doctors who were born in Mostar, who were
7 born down there, told me of this, they told me that the situation in the
8 town was such that there was a possibility of a conflict between the army
9 and the HVO. They said that this was possible. I didn't want to believe
10 this. But I think it was on the 9th of August, a day earlier [As
11 translated], I went to the Main Staff of the HVO, and I asked them whether
12 they had any information about the possibility of a conflict, because I
13 thought that we had to be prepared, I thought that we doctors had to be
14 present there.
15 Q. I apologise. I have to interrupt you, because in the transcript
16 it didn't say that -- it doesn't say that you were there a day earlier on
17 the 8th. I can't follow. And it says August, not May. So you can see
18 what sort of problems we have on a daily basis. This is why I'm asking
19 you to slow down.
20 A. I understand the interpreters very well and those who are typing
21 this. I think it is most difficult for them.
22 Q. You are quite right. Please repeat that briefly?
23 A. Well, on the 8th, I was in the staff, the 8th of May, 1993. We
24 doctors, we are always ready, but I asked them whether it was possible
25 that we might have to be engaged in a more -- at a more intense level.
1 They told me, "Doctor, sleep peacefully. There will be no conflict."
2 They weren't expecting a conflict. I can claim this categorically. I
3 went to a hotel in Citluk and together with several other doctors, after a
4 certain period of time, after a certain time, I went to sleep, naturally.
5 And early in the morning, I was called and they asked me where I was,
6 given that there was a war going on in Mostar. I was really very
7 surprised. Several of us entered Mostar. We went towards the hospital on
8 the hill where, let's say, my headquarters was located, and the shooting
9 in Mostar, or rather the noise of weapons, I don't know what kind of
10 weapons, I'm not in a position -- I'm not capable of identifying them, the
11 noise was incredible, and I think that on that day, there were about 100
12 seriously wounded people, and then the days followed on.
13 Q. Could you please tell us how many people died and what sort of
14 weapons caused these deaths mostly, that you are aware of personally?
15 A. I didn't personally take care of people and I didn't personally
16 operate on them, but at the time, the greatest number of those who died or
17 were seriously wounded were people who had been hit directly in the head.
18 I remembered afterwards, after that, I suggested that -- or I
19 advised officers to order their soldiers to wear helmets. I wore a
21 Q. Can you perhaps remember the number of people who were hit in the
22 head, if you know this? I won't insist on it, if you can't say so. More
23 or less were these civilians or soldiers? If you know, naturally.
24 A. Well, naturally, I don't know the number but it's not a problem by
25 going through the hospital protocol, it's not a problem to establish this,
1 to check this information, but I think that there were about 100 people
2 who died or who were seriously, very seriously wounded, and this concerned
3 direct hits to the head or to the neck.
4 Q. I don't think this will be a leading question and there won't be
5 any objections from my colleague. So can we conclude that these people
6 were wounded by snipers can we conclude -- come to this conclusion on the
7 basis of that information?
8 A. I said what sort of wounds were in question, how these people had
9 been wounded so I think it's not necessary to comment further on this.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bagaric. It is now time for a break.
11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I assume this is the
12 right time for a break. I would like to ask you for another 15 minutes
13 after the break and I have about another two subjects and after that, I
14 will have concluded with my examination.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll resume at 4.00 sharp.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.34 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?
19 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could go to private
20 session just for one moment so I don't inadvertently disclose something
21 that shouldn't be disclosed?
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.
23 [Private session]
12 Page 12397 – redacted – private session
12 Page 12398 – redacted – private session
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
20 [Open session]
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I'll now put a question to you, later I shall hand you over to the
23 Prosecutor. Have you heard about some detention centre or prison which
24 was called the Heliodrom? What do you know about this place? And did you
25 take any action with regard to this place, your doctors, et cetera?
1 Mr. Bagaric put your headphones on your head like I have so that they
2 don't fall off all the time. You see, you can press them here.
3 A. So the question is whether I've heard about the Heliodrom? Of
4 course, unfortunately I have. It would be far better if no one had heard
5 about a single detention centre. However, since we are talking about the
6 Heliodrom detention centre, yes, I was there on one occasion. I went
7 there personally. What can I say about that place? What I think is
8 important to this Tribunal is that at the beginning of the conflict
9 between the BH Army and the Croats, there was a lack of confidence, a
10 terrible lack of confidence between the population, among the population,
11 in Mostar. And certainly, in the units of the HVO, which had a mixed
12 composition, so the lack of trust in those units was intense. So when
13 members of the BH Army, for this or for that reason, left the HVO or
14 rather in many cases unfortunately they agreed to do so in the course of
15 the evening, and they turned their weapons against their colleagues,
16 against people who had been their colleagues before, and then there turned
17 into a lack of trust towards the Muslims in general in the town, and
18 vice versa. So there was mistrust of the Muslims, with regard to the
19 Croats. And I think that the reason for this is that, well, people were
20 gathered, collected, and they were placed in the centre. This was one of
21 the results of this event. And it was perhaps in order to prevent BH Army
22 members from killing Croats, and partly, it was in order to protect
23 ourselves, protect themselves and to protect those people among them
24 because unfortunately no one could be a guarantee for anyone in that town
25 any more, and life unfortunately was worth very little.
1 Among those detainees, naturally at the very beginning, there were
2 probably or rather I am sure that there were people who could not be
3 included in the groups that I have mentioned. So people who were under 18
4 years of age or people who were over 65 years of age and so on. So
5 sometime at the beginning of the conflict, that was the first time I heard
6 about people being detained. The first time I heard about people being
7 detained was at the meeting I mentioned with Halilovic when he accused
8 Petkovic and said that we had detained certain people. That was on the
9 4th of May. After that, I know for sure that all these people were
10 released because that had been agreed at the meeting. That was one of the
11 issues that had been agreed on at the meeting. After this open conflict
12 that I have been speaking about, the situation in the town was such that
13 it was impossible to get information about this or to find out about how
14 events were being influenced. So there was an open conflict which was
15 taking place on a daily basis in the town itself. The medical services
16 were making a great effort in order to treat all those who had been
17 wounded, and at that time, I would say that this was a priority for us.
18 Immediately after that period of time, I think that was somewhere in the
19 middle of July, because of a trip I had arranged for Canada earlier on, I
20 was absent. I think I wasn't in Mostar for about 20 or 25 days. When I
21 returned, I think that was in mid-July, in the meantime the conflict
22 between the BH Army and the HVO had unfortunately escalated.
23 Then I heard from my colleagues, other doctors, about the
24 existence of the -- of this detention centre. They told me that, that
25 they were involved in looking after all -- of all the detainees who needed
1 medical care. They also told me that they looked after them every day. I
2 made a decision -- the following decision. I thought that one could not
3 deny the existence of the centre, if the centre did exist, as it did, and
4 I invited the member of the Helsinki watch for the protection of human
5 rights from Zagreb, professor Slobodan Lang, and together with him, I went
6 to the Heliodrom. I must admit that my first meeting with Heliodrom --
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?
8 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, perhaps we could get some foundation of
9 time as to when this visit to the Heliodrom was.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please. Witness, would you please tell us about
11 the time when you visited Heliodrom?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I can't. I can't
13 remember the date. But I know that it must have been in mid-July, but I
14 can't say that with certainty. But I can check that. So the Heliodrom
15 left a strong impact on me and when we got there, somebody approached me,
16 one of the people who were there, and told me that there were a number of
17 people detained there. I asked him how many. And he said several
18 thousand. I was very concerned with the overall situation regarding the
19 war, the battle front, and when I saw this detention centre and when it
20 had occurred to me that a number of such detention centres existed all
21 over Bosnia and Herzegovina, where Croats were detained and that in these
22 centres, people perished in huge numbers, after that, together with
23 Slobodan Lang, I drafted a certain plan as to what we should do, as
24 doctors. We made contact with the doctors who were in charge in that
25 area, and we talked to them.
1 Secondly, the International Red Cross had already been aware of
2 that and we also talked to them. We decided to become active in order to
3 prevent possible suffering of those people, and in order to provide the
4 international organisations with a better insight into the situation, with
5 a view to preventing any large-scale suffering. During the next few days,
6 our doctors supervised the situation in this detention centre. However,
7 we decided to establish a team of doctors outside the centre. I was one
8 of the members of that team. We also appointed the leader of that team,
9 that was Dr. Curic a specialist in infectious diseases. We also had a
10 specialist in general medicine, Dr. Sandrka. Dr. Lang was also a member
11 of that team and also one of his assistants, Mr. Culo. As a result of the
12 work of that team, we accomplished the following: We established a
13 medical team within the detention centre. We established a small
14 department, a small ward, where all those who needed help in the detention
15 centre would be treated. We assigned a place and a person in charge of
16 medicines and logistics, which had to do with medicine. So we established
17 a little storage of medicines. We also assigned an ambulance vehicle,
18 which was dedicated for the needs of the detention centre. All the people
19 who were there and who required medical treatment would, from then on, be
20 transported to the hospital where they were treated.
21 So in a nutshell, what was our goal and what we achieved? We
22 wanted to prevent individual and large-scale suffering of the people in
23 the detention centre. Secondly, we wanted to treat all those who needed
24 medical care. And thirdly, we wanted to prevent the breakout of
25 epidemics, of any contagious disease. Fourthly, we wanted to cooperate,
1 as much as we could, with international organisations.
2 We achieved the following. All those who required medical
3 assistance indeed received it. All those who needed to be referred to the
4 hospital were sent to the hospital and treated there. We enabled
5 Dr. Mirsad Stanjak who was also a detainee in the detention centre, to
6 have supervision of all that work with in the detention centre and to
7 communicate with whoever visited the centre. We partly succeeded in
8 providing for an efficient communication with international organisations
9 because the food that was brought for the detainees was in short supply,
10 and did not meet their needs. As for other structures are concerned,
11 primarily the structures within the HVO, we succeeded in preventing, i.e.,
12 reducing, any -- if there was any mistreatment of the people there, and
13 one other thing that we managed to succeed in was to prevent a large-scale
15 And finally, I would like to say that the detention centre for us
16 was unfortunately one of the non-desired outcomes, that we did not expect,
17 and that is why our knowledge as to how we should treat that centre, what
18 to do, what the role of the Red Cross was, in terms of that centre, so at
19 the beginning, our knowledge was really modest in that respect. However,
20 despite all the sufferings of the people who were detained and by the
21 sheer fact that they were detained they suffered, so despite all that, we
22 managed to achieve most of our objectives. So much for me.
23 Q. Thank you Dr. Bagaric. Can you tell us something that my learned
24 colleague is also going to ask you about and I don't want to waste any
25 time, you said that Dr. Lang came as a member of the Helsinki watch.
1 Some witnesses said here in this courtroom that they had another function?
2 A. What function, I do not understand.
3 Q. Did he ever a political function in Croatia at the time?
4 A. That was --
5 Q. I apologise. I'm sorry for interrupting. I believe that this is
6 a very unusual situation for you, but whenever I deem it necessary to
7 interrupt you, I will. Don't please hold it against me. So let's go back
8 to Dr. Lang, the Croatian Helsinki watch was a non-governmental
9 organisation, wasn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Here in this courtroom, we heard testimony that he arrived as an
12 adviser to President Tudjman.
13 A. If that is true, then -- Tudjman -- but at the time, Dr. Lang did
14 not have any political or any other role. He was just a professor of
15 public health in the -- at the Andrija Stampar school in Zagreb and he was
16 a member of the Helsinki watch of Zagreb and before that, and at the time,
17 and today, he has had a lot of experience with humanitarian aid, and
18 providing humanitarian help.
19 Q. I may be asking you some unusual -- some strange questions but let
20 me explain why I'm doing that. Was he prone to drinking? Did he drink
21 alcohol, as far as you know?
22 A. I spent a lot of time with Dr. Lang. I never saw the man having
23 as much as a glass of beer, let alone wine or spirits, and I claim here
24 before you that nobody could ever see him drunk because, I don't know
25 whether I'm allowed to say this here, but I shall say it, because he is on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 medication which do not go well with alcohol. And he is really not prone
2 to alcohol. And I never saw him drinking. So this is a lie.
3 Q. Did he have a special position or attitude towards other people
4 who were not Croats, to your knowledge?
5 A. Who, Slobodan Lang? He has his position on everything, I should
6 think so. I believe that he has a position on -- and attitude towards all
7 nations, but his general position is that all people are equal, and that
8 all people deserve help if they need help, and in his work, he has
9 demonstrated that, and I can give you several examples for that if the
10 Honourable Court will allow me to do that.
11 Q. No. It would be a waste of time. I just would like to show you
12 Exhibit D1/382, page 33, a short question.
13 A. Before that, if I may, Your Honours, this is a gift which I have
14 carried on me around my neck, but today I'm wearing a tie so I can't do
15 that today. This is what Slobodan Lang gave me. This depicts three
16 symbols, three large religions as a sign of universality which does not
17 exclude any religious, either Jewish, Islam, or Catholic. I'm a person
18 who is trying to be a good Catholic. I'm also entitled to wear this
19 around my neck.
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I've asked for Exhibit D1/382. And
21 also, Madam Registrar, can you also prepare D1/348 and D1/347 and 372?
22 And this will be the basis for my last set of questions. We are going to
23 show you these documents and we are drawing to the end of this
25 Q. Again, another unusual question: Do you know what is Dr. Lang's
1 either nationality or religion? Do you happen to know?
2 A. I don't think I have the right to talk about Dr. Lang, because of
3 what I said and what I can confirm, I don't see the need to talk any
4 longer about this man.
5 Q. Let me just tell you that somebody in this courtroom said that
6 Dr. Lang had a very negative position about Muslims. So this is not by
7 chance that I'm asking you what is his religion or what is his
8 nationality. And this exhibit, 1/382?
9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President again as I have several times in the
10 last few sessions, I object to these argumentative questions. That
11 question that was just put to the witness had no more -- only for the
12 effect of educating the witness and talking the witness into answer that
13 counsel wanted. I object to that form of question. It's happened
14 repeatedly now. And we object.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, just ask a simple question to this witness.
16 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. I'm not
17 trying to lead this witness. This witness cannot be led anywhere. This
18 witness is testifying the way he wants to testify. He can not be led into
19 saying anything by anybody. But I think that this is a very important
21 Q. Please be so kind, I know that you're avoiding any mention of
22 anybody's religion or nationality but still, can you tell us if you ever
23 noticed that Dr. Lang would have a negative attitude towards the Muslims?
24 A. I would like to thank Mr. Scott for saying -- for suggesting that
25 I may be saying what somebody else wants me to say. But rest assured,
1 Mr. Scott, and Your Honours, that I will say only what I know, what is the
2 truth and I will say that everywhere and at all times. Dr. Lang is a
3 person who spent time before the war with miners from Trepca, and they are
4 all Albanians, all Muslims. He spent sometime with them under the ground,
5 in the mines, and he went on strike, on hunger strike, with them, because
6 they were persecuted by the Serbs. That was before the war.
7 During the war, Dr. Lang helped everybody, after the war, during
8 the Kosovo crisis, Dr. Lang went to Kosovo. Dr. Lang is a universal
9 person when it comes to his attitude towards religion. So it is not my
10 place to say anything about his family tree or ancestry and I don't want
11 to comment on that, but one thing I can say for sure, that never ever did
12 I hear from that man a word about anybody in any situation at any time.
13 Q. Thank you. Now you have documents in front of you. Can you
14 please give us your comments and we shall close with that?
15 A. Here I can see several papers, documents talking about my
16 experience during my work, during the war. Some of them also concern
17 Dr. Lang. For example I'm holding in my hand document D1/347. That is an
18 article which has been published by Richard Horton the editor-in-chief
19 of Lancet, and Lancet is one of the leading scientific, I apologise for
20 telling you this I'm sure you know but it is one of the leading scientific
21 papers and on the basis of our experience, he published a -- something
22 about our attempts to mitigate the suffering of our enemies at the time,
23 during the war. But also our sufferings, the suffering of all of us, to
24 my mind. He mentions in this article that this is something that the
25 world should look up to, that the world should follow -- follow in our
1 foot steps because it shows a wonderful attitude towards the humanitarian
2 aid and it shows wonderful efficiency of the medical service during the
3 war. So on the same subject, I spoke in Montreal, the topic was the
4 consequences of war on people, hospitals and medical personnel from the
5 public health respective view. As a result of that speech, the article
6 that I'm holding in my hand, D1/347, and especially article D1/382, which
7 was presented by Slobodan Lang and myself in Strasbourg on the conference
8 on medicine and human rights. So these are the attempts in order to
9 advance the international humanitarian law, based on our experience.
10 Among the proposals which are listed here --
11 Q. I apologise. I would like to speed you up a little because the
12 time is constrained. Just a short commentary because everybody can read
13 the document.
14 A. We proposed setting up of the so-called global hospital. We
15 proposed some improvements with regard to detention centres. And we
16 touched upon many other subjects. At a conference in Canada, this
17 knowledge was also used and the whole conference wanted to use our
18 experience in order to come to the new knowledge on the prevention of war,
19 prevention on hate and on how to be more efficient.
20 Q. I'm again interrupting you. I want your comment on 1/348 and
21 1/372, please.
22 A. D1/348 is an overview of the sufferings of Croats in central
23 Bosnia, in the Neretva valley. It's just an overview of all the
24 sufferings. D1/372 is relative to an issue that I can talk about here,
25 because I want this to be heard. I want this to be known. This is
1 relative to the fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina as a state has survived.
2 That is my testimony. That is something that I have the need to tell you
3 here, as the witness of that time. So it has survived primarily as the
4 result of the influence of the international community, and to a large
5 extent, as the result of the contribution of the people to which I
7 In a lecture that I delivered in Harvard I said that the survival
8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina is due much more to the Croats in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina than to any other people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I
10 explained that by the fact that we Croats were the first ones to vote for
11 the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, at our referendum, we voted
12 for an integral Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Croatian Defence Council was
13 the first established defence unit in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Bagaric, we have heard all those evidence already.
15 I hope you could be as concise as possible.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And finally, let me finish. I
17 understand you for warning me. Thank you for your warning. Document
18 1/372 demonstrates Croatian isolated zones during the war in Bosnia,
19 besides the Croatian Defence Council and the BH Army, and huge aid from
20 Croatia, in terms of medical assistance and receipt of Bosnian and
21 Herzegovinian refugees, these Croat enclaves remained until the end of the
22 war as the connecting tissue of the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
23 owing to them, the Dayton Accords could be signed, they were preceded by
24 the Washington Agreements and the condition of those were cantons, some of
25 which were to be mixed. So the fighting of the Croats in central Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina was the foundation for resolving the conflict between
2 Muslims and Croats, i.e., for creating a federation and later on, the
3 peace accords in -- for the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina. I would conclude
4 with that unless --
5 Q. Yes, I have another question, I apologise, Dr. Bagaric, there are
6 rules that we have to adhere to and we have to respect this court. Did
7 you ever see Dr. Lang -- so the first question is do you know
8 Mr. Naletilic personally?
9 A. What do you mean do I know him? Well, at the moment I can assume
10 who Mr. Naletilic is because among other things, I saw certain photographs
11 when he was arrested, and out of the two or three people sitting here, I
12 can guess who he is but I don't know him personally, I don't know
13 Mr. Naletilic personally.
14 Q. Have you seen or did Mr. Lang tell you about this or were you
15 present, have you seen Mr. Naletilic and Mr. Lang visiting the Heliodrom
17 A. I'm not aware of this, and Mr. Lang never mentioned it.
18 Q. And how many times did Dr. Lang go to the Heliodrom? Were you
19 always with him?
20 A. I don't know how many times Lang was at the Heliodrom but I do
21 know that I never heard a comment from him about having seen this person
22 or that person or having been with this person or that person and
23 certainly not with Mr. Naletilic.
24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That would be all, Your Honours. I
25 have no further questions. I thank you, Mr. Bagaric, for your patience.
1 The Prosecutor will now cross-examine you. Thank you for coming.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Scott? Cross-examination.
3 MR. SCOTT: I'll just note for the record, Your Honour, that
4 Mr. Krsnik's direct examination took just slightly under four hours.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, we have calculated the time spent for
6 Mr. Krsnik but any way, thank you very much to remind me of that fact.
7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that fact is simply not
9 correct. I can't understand how Mr. Scott calculated the time, four
10 hours. Altogether, I can tell you precisely, one hour and 15 minutes,
11 two hours, not even three hours. Not even three hours. I really don't
12 see how this was calculated. Maybe we should use a stop watch to
13 calculate it. I really don't understand how the time is being calculated.
14 Maybe some other sort of time is being calculated.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you have to understand that the
16 Registrar also calculates the time you used for the direct examination. I
17 think both parties have to trust the calculation made by the Registrar.
18 According to her calculation, it's about four hours.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:
20 Q. Sir, in the latter part of November, 1993, was there anyone who
21 was filled the position that might be called the minister, the HVO
22 Minister of Health or some such -- that may mot be the exact title.
23 Please understand I'm not asking you specific words but was there someone
24 who filled a position that was something like the HVO or Herceg-Bosna
25 Minister of Health?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. There was the position of the director of the health department,
2 not a minister, but I think that at that time it was called a
3 subdepartment for health. It was a part of the government, of the civil
5 Q. And who was the head of the health department as you described it,
6 as of mid-November, 1993?
7 A. A friend of mine, whose name is Ivan Sarac and he too contributed
8 to a great extent and helped us implement what we did in the course of the
9 war, helped us to provide health care to all those who needed it.
10 Q. And how long did you continue to be the assistant, essentially the
11 assistant Minister of Defence for medicine, for medical services or
12 health? How long did you continue in that position?
13 A. I was, we could say, a coordinator of the main medical
14 headquarters, directly prior to the formation, not of that ministry but of
15 the department, of the Defence department, and I think that this was up
16 until, I think, the Defence department was formed -- I think it was in
17 August. I can't be exact. August, 1992. I was the assistant of the
18 chief of the Defence department for health. That's what it was called.
19 And I had this -- held this post from that date right up until the Dayton
20 agreement, until the end of the war.
21 Q. And just for date purposes, perhaps you can assist the Chamber,
22 when you say the Dayton agreement, so what date was that?
23 A. I don't know the date of the Dayton agreement, but I don't know
24 the exact date but it was in 1995, I think it was -- well, I don't know
25 exactly. Perhaps the first half of 1995. I don't know. I can't
1 remember. That's when the peace agreement was concluded in Dayton.
2 Q. So it can we understand, and most importantly can the Judges, sir,
3 understand that throughout the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims
4 or for that matter all of 1993, all of 1994, you were the most senior
5 HVO official, if you will, dedicated or having the task of health
6 services; is that right?
7 A. I was an HVO officer, or rather the commander of the health
8 service of the -- the commander of the so-called war health, the war
9 component, and that related to the organisation of health in units, the
10 organisation of war hospitals, and during that period, that was the role I
12 Q. Let me repeat my question, then. Throughout -- I'll go back to
13 the late 1992 just to be clear. Throughout the second half of
14 approximately of 1992, all of 1993, and all of 1994, you were the most
15 senior health and medical-related official or officer in the HVO or the
16 government of Herceg-Bosna, correct?
17 A. No, that's not correct.
18 Q. Who had medical --
19 A. Just a minute.
20 Q. Who had a medical or health-related function more senior to you in
21 either the HVO or the government of either respectively the Croatian
22 Community of Herceg-Bosna or later the Croatian Republic Herceg-Bosna?
23 Who had a more senior position than you in those areas?
24 A. If you will allow me and if you don't interrupt me, I will answer
25 your question. With regard to the organisation of military health, health
1 that was related to units, no one was more senior than I was, no one.
2 When we are talking about civil health, that's a different segment and was
3 responsible for the medical centres which weren't in the war zone. And
4 that part, I don't know, it's part of the government, whatever you call
5 it, the government of Herceg-Bosna. I wasn't in the government. I was a
6 member of the -- within the Ministry of Defence I was an assistant to the
7 minister of defence, and I was the assistant for health. No one of the
8 doctors was above me, no one -- I was under no one's orders in that
9 segment of the health service.
10 Q. Can you please assist the Chamber with saying who then was the
11 mast senior health or medicine-related official on the government side,
12 as you just described it?
13 A. The chief of the so-called subdepartment for health, whom I have
14 already mentioned. He was a member of the government.
15 Q. Can you give us his name again, just so it's clear, please?
16 A. Dr. Ivan Saric.
17 Q. Sir, during the wartime, we can all understand that under wartime
18 conditions, situations in a field hospital could be clearly quite severe
19 and unpleasant. The situation in the West Mostar hospital was terrible,
20 wasn't it?
21 A. Could you explain what terrible means?
22 Q. No, sir, you tell me. What were the conditions then? Was it
23 pleasant? Did you have all the supplies you needed? Was it a pleasant
24 place to work or was it a very unpleasant and terrible situation?
25 A. Your question related to the west part of Mostar.
1 Q. The west side hospital, sir.
2 A. It's not pleasant to work anywhere during a war. We didn't have
3 enough doctors. There was a shortage of equipment. And medical supplies
4 were lacking too. But as I said, compared with the east side of Mostar,
5 we were in a good situation. But when you compare it with the east side
6 of Mostar.
7 Q. And that's my next question, sir. Isn't it true that, as terrible
8 as conditions may have been in the west side hospital, conditions in the
9 hospital in East Mostar were far worse in every respect? Weren't they?
10 A. Absolutely, that's correct.
11 Q. If I could have the usher please show you Exhibit D1/376. I may
12 have it wrong. Excuse me. I may have -- excuse me, Mr. Usher, I may have
13 the wrong number. Sorry, give me one moment, please. My apology. I'm
14 sorry, it's 354, if you could show the witness, please, Exhibit D1/354.
15 Mr. Usher if you could assist us, please, by putting the English version
16 on the ELMO.
17 Q. Sir, the date of this document that you've told us you prepared is
18 the 14th of April, 1993. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And that was substantially before any major armed conflict between
21 the Muslims and Croats in Herzegovina; is that correct?
22 A. Before any major conflict, in Mostar, yes.
23 Q. And can you assist us, please, with why the name of the hospital
24 as reflected in the first sentence under the title or section heading
25 called, "Communication". It says this: "A meeting of physicians, Croats
1 and Muslims, service heads, and the command of the HVO regional war
2 hospital, Mostar." Why was it the HVO regional war hospital, sir?
3 A. Because that's what its name was.
4 Q. Sir, why wasn't it just simply called the Mostar regional
5 hospital? What was the significance of claiming that it was an HVO
7 A. Because the decision on naming that hospital was brought by the
8 municipal council of the town of Mostar, at a time when it had its
9 government, it had its Commander of Defence, and that was a time when I
10 think -- I think Jasmin Jaganjac, who at the time was the commander of the
11 Defence of the town and was later an officer in the BH Army, he
12 personally, and a representative of the municipal council, named that
13 hospital and decided that it should be a war hospital, from the time of
14 the conflict with the Serbs. That was from the time of the conflict with
15 the Serbs, so at an earlier date, a date prior to this date, when this
16 document was written, this hospital was already called a war hospital
17 because a decision had already been made to that effect, and primarily, I
18 said this on several times, because of the war situation, because it was
19 surrounded. Nothing else.
20 Q. It's true, is it not, sir, that from the spring of 1992, and
21 continuing through to April of 1993 and thereafter, Mostar, the city of
22 Mostar, and its government, was controlled by the HVO, correct?
23 A. I went to Mostar, I think it was in 1992, maybe in September.
24 What happened in Mostar before that date, before that time, I know what
25 the situation was with the organisation of health, but for me to talk to
1 you about who had authority, power, in Mostar after the first free
2 elections, well, I really can't do that but the results of the free
3 elections in Mostar defined the power structure in Mostar, as is the case
4 everywhere in the world.
5 Q. From September 1992, sir, when you arrived there, continuing to
6 April, 1993, and thereafter, the HVO controlled the government of Mostar
7 and the infrastructure in Mostar, correct?
8 A. The HVO, has both a military and a civil structure. And a
9 decision was taken about this just before the conflict, and during the
10 conflict, or rather during the Serbian aggression against Bosnia and
11 Herzegovina. So I'll repeat this: Up until the war with the Serbs, the
12 authorities functioned like authorities everywhere in the world, in
13 Mostar. The conflict with the Serbs, or rather the Serbian aggression and
14 the formation of the HVO, well, if we are talking about the military
15 component in the town, it was under -- the town was under the command of
16 the HVO, and the HVO liberated the town from the Serbs, too, but with
17 regard to this question, as to who was in command of the town and certain
18 other structures, I really don't know. I just didn't deal with that. It
19 was not a problem for me.
20 Q. It's your position, then, sir, before this Chamber, that, for
21 instance, in June and July of 1993, then, are you telling this Chamber the
22 Muslims had just as much control in the government of West Mostar and most
23 of Mostar, as the Croats did?
24 A. In June and July, 1993, no one had control over anything, because
25 it was war. So in June and July, 1993, it was a time of war. So there
1 was part of the town which was under HVO control and there was part of the
2 town which was under the BH Army, under the control of the BH Army. I
3 don't understand what you want to ask me, what you want me to say.
4 Q. When Herceg-Bosna was created, sir, the Croatian Community of
5 Herceg-Bosna, Mostar was declared the capital of Herceg-Bosna, wasn't it?
6 A. I don't think this declaration was ever made, or in fact I don't
7 know, but I think that the formation of Herceg-Bosna didn't have as its
8 objective the declaration of a capital, and the declaration of
9 Herceg-Bosna some sort of creation, some sort of structure, because
10 Herceg-Bosna during the war and after the war, right up until the signing
11 of the peace agreement or let's say up until the time when the government
12 of Herceg-Bosna ceased to function, it was a territorial unit of Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina, which means that in one of its founding documents, it
14 says that the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina is respected. So in all the
15 documents that I saw then, in this document here too, the document that
16 you gave me, it says the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the top, the
17 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, the Defence department. So it was
18 part of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina which
19 still hadn't fell into the hands of the Serbs. So I really don't know
20 anything about the capital. I really know nothing about Mostar as the
21 capital. I apologise. I really don't know how to it address you.
22 Q. Herceg-Bosna was a government, was it not, sir, with a president,
23 a legislature, judges, a military, postal service, the Croatian community
24 of Herceg-Bosna later became the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna and it
25 was a government, sir, with all the characteristics of a government that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 most of us would recognise as a government, correct?
2 A. I apologise. When someone asked me, when the Prosecutor asks me,
3 whether that was correct, do I always have to say either yes or no or can
4 I provide an explanation?
5 JUDGE LIU: Of course, you could explain your views on this
6 subject. But first, you have to -- if possible, you have to answer yes or
7 no to that question.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, and I would
9 like to say the following. To answer such a question by saying yes or no,
10 well, such -- providing such answers could be used to confirm what someone
11 wants to hear, whether it's the Defence or the Prosecution. So in such
12 matters, I would really like to ask you not to be compelled to answer by
13 saying yes or no. So the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, later on it
14 was never territorially defined. It was never a separated territory. It
15 was never separated from Bosnia-Herzegovina. You asked me whether there
16 was a government there. Well, of course. There was a government in order
17 to introduce order and defend the territory. It's not possible to defend
18 territory if there is no order in existence. It was a government but it
19 wasn't a government which compromised Bosnia and Herzegovina or rather
20 which intended -- which wanted to separate from Bosnia and Herzegovina and
21 later on to ask for international recognition of some kind, et cetera, et
22 cetera. So, that is my answer.
23 Q. The government of Herceg-Bosna that you've just identified was
24 controlled by the HVO, correct?
25 A. No. The HVO was under the control of the legitimate
1 representatives of the government from the first multi-party elections.
2 So it is true that the HVO was under the control of the official
3 representatives of people from certain territory. That's my answer.
4 Q. Sir, the President of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and
5 the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was a Bosnian Croat named Mate
6 Boban, correct? Is that a difficult question?
7 A. [In English] Yes, it's a very difficult question, why?
8 [Interpretation] I'll try and explain this to you. Mate Boban, he was
9 firstly a member of the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina and he was a
10 colleague of mine in parliament. Therefore, with the establishment of the
11 HVO or rather the establishment of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna
12 and of the HVO et cetera, Mate Boban as a member of the parliament of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina or rather a representative of the people, a
14 legitimate representative, he carried out these functions, he carried out
15 the functions of the duties of president, or rather of chief or I don't
16 know, in that territory. So to that extent, my answer to your question is
18 Q. And the President of the HVO government was a man named Jadranko
19 Prlic, who was also a Bosnian Croat, correct?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, you can see that I
22 haven't been raising any objections but the Prosecutor is always allowing
23 himself to do things that he shouldn't be allowed to do. I respect all of
24 your decisions. You can see what Mr. Bagaric's testimony related to. I
25 don't know what these political questions are about, about the HZ HB, but
1 that was not something that I addressed in my direct examination, and the
2 gentleman didn't come here to testify about these facts and I didn't
3 question him about them either. And I would like to repeat, Your Honours,
4 and this is something I would like to it announce, I think that I'm going
5 to modify my form of examination because I don't want the
6 cross-examination to be taken -- made use of, one knows very well what the
7 purpose of cross-examination is. I have analysed all the witnesses, just
8 a moment ago, and the Prosecutor or the OTP, they have their investigation
9 teams and they have had seven years to carry out their investigations
10 and this is not something that should be done during cross-examination
11 under the cover of credibility.
12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, according to your 65 ter filings, we
13 understand this witness is only going to testify about war hospital and
14 all those matters related. But during your direct examinations, you asked
15 very extensive questions which out of the scope of that 65 ter filings.
16 In this aspect, I think the Prosecution is entitled to ask all those
17 related questions, which, as the witness said himself, Mr. Mate Boban
18 worked with him in the parliament.
19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, Your Honours. There
20 was one question at the beginning to which my learned friend objected,
21 when we started talking about the parliament of the Republic of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina he objected immediately and after that I stopped talking about
23 politics. All the other questions were about the war hospital, the
24 organisation of health care and so on and so forth. And now he is using
25 the same questions that he objected to during my examination-in-chief. So
1 very often, my learned friend contradicts himself and he always interprets
2 things the way he chooses to interpret them and he does not allow the
3 other side, i.e. the defence to interpret things their way.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to answer
5 that question, I don't have a problem with that.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.
7 MR. SCOTT: I think it's time for a break, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we just heard that the witness would like to
9 answer this question, and we'll break now and after the break, we will
10 hear the answer from this witness. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you may answer that question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I please ask you a
15 favour? Actually can I ask you something?
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it is not through fault
18 of yours or mine, I have been here for quite a long time. Is there any
19 way, I'm appealing to Mr. Prosecutor, is there anyway that my testimony
20 could be finished today? Otherwise, I have to stay for another weekend,
21 and this would very much dictate the way I answer the questions.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Bagaric, before starting this hearing, this
23 Trial Chamber has done its utmost to try to find a courtroom and proper
24 time to finish your testimony today. But all our efforts have failed. So
25 I'm afraid that you have to stay here during the weekend. I'm sorry about
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your answer.
3 So I apologise. Can I ask the Prosecutor to repeat the question?
4 And I would also kindly ask him to understand me and try to do his best so
5 I don't have to stay here over the weekend, I can even promise that I will
6 be very short, up to the point, as long as I can go home.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. The question, sir, was is it not true, sir, that Jadranko Prlic
9 was the President of the HVO government and a Bosnian Croat?
10 A. I don't know whether he is a Croat, and I don't know whether he
11 was the President of the government all the time. However, one way to
12 answer this question is yes, but this is not true, because when I say yes,
13 then it is a generally known thing that Jadranko Prlic did discharge the
14 duties mentioned by the Prosecutor but the truth is a much broader thing
15 and it requires a certain explanation. The truth is, the whole
16 information and the whole information is as follows: Jadranko Prlic was
17 the Prime Minister of one part of Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war,
18 during which we defended ourselves from Serbia and during all this time
19 belonged to Bosnia and Herzegovina and which after the war was
20 incorporated, together with Republika Srpska, together with the areas
21 controlled by the BH Army, into Bosnia and Herzegovina. This would be a
22 much better answer, so to speak.
23 Q. Jadran Topic was the Mayor of Mostar and the HVO President of
24 Mostar, a Bosnian Croat, correct?
25 A. I don't know, I don't know.
1 Q. Where did you live during the war, sir, in 1993?
2 A. All over Bosnia and Herzegovina, in different places in Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina. I was in Posavina, I was in central Bosnia. I was in the
4 area of my native Tomislavgrad, where I have my house. I also was in
5 Mostar for a little while. I was even stationed in Citluk.
6 Q. Well, can you give us an idea a sir, again, of where you spent
7 most of your time in 1993, in terms of where you stayed, where you had
8 your residence, when you were not working?
9 A. I always worked. There was no single day when I didn't work. So
10 my family house is in Tomislavgrad municipality but that is where I spent
11 the least time.
12 Q. Where did you spend the most time?
13 A. In Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. No particular village, city or municipality? Is that right?
15 A. I think it would have been Tomislavgrad. I think I spent most
16 time in Tomislavgrad, if I measured the time, but I would have to do a
17 little research in order to be able to tell you that. I can't tell you
18 with certainty.
19 Q. My question to you in the last few moments was where you lived and
20 now I'm asking you separate question: Where was your principal office or
21 place of work during 1993?
22 A. It's different question and I thank you for it. We established
23 the medical headquarters in 1992 in Tomislavgrad. Why? Because
24 Tomislavgrad is in the area between Bosnia and Herzegovina, in a part
25 which is equally -- at an equal distance from all parts of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And the office throughout the war remained there with
2 the personnel that we had and then, from late 1992, I spent some time in
3 Mostar, and after that, some time in Posusje. So I was in different
4 places and my office was partly throughout the war was in Tomislavgrad,
5 and the second part of my office was for a while in Mostar and later on in
7 Q. A moment ago you said you would try to give us short, responsive
8 answers. Listen to my question, please. Specifically directed to 1993.
9 I did not ask you about why it was put in Grude or why or anything about
10 1992. Where was your principal office or place of work during 1993?
11 A. I asked you before that and you didn't answer me. Are you going
12 to ask me short questions so that you can let me go home? If you want to
13 do that, then my answers will be brief. If not, then I really have all
14 the time in the world. I will be more specific and I will give you more
15 complete information. That may be of some use to you.
16 Q. Sir, I have no intentions of negotiating with you about my
17 cross-examination, my question to you and the question pending is where
18 was your principal office or place of work during 1993?
19 A. In 1993, my place of work, my office, was in Mostar, throughout
20 1993 and if you wish to know, I never had an office in Grude.
21 Q. So can the Judges understand, some of the important aspects of
22 this case, that throughout most of 1993, you actually worked in the city
23 of Mostar; is that right?
24 A. Yes. I believe that everybody can understand, not just the
25 Honourable Court. In 1993, I was in Mostar, that is my office was there,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 but I did not sit there all the time, because my area of authority was not
2 only Mostar but everywhere where the HVO was, and that was the entire area
3 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, wherever there were Croats. So I travelled a
4 lot, all over Bosnia and Herzegovina, even in that time.
5 Q. Sir, that is the reason for the questions which I'm putting to you
6 which are very simple so that the Judges can understand the basis of your
7 knowledge about various things that you've talked to us about. So I'm
8 trying to establish where you were and for how long. Now, did you spend
9 most of your time actually working in west -- West Mostar, or were you
10 equally out and about all parts of Herzegovina during 1993?
11 A. Most of my working hours, I spent in Mostar. I mentioned that I
12 was in Canada for some 20 days during that time. I must have been
13 elsewhere during that time but my office, my workplace, the workplace of
14 my colleagues who were in charge of the medical corps of the HVO, was in
15 Mostar. And now, when I see where you are headed, then, yes, the answer
16 is I spent most of the time in Mostar and my office was in Mostar.
17 Q. What was the approximate time period when you were in Canada? I
18 know it's a long time ago but your best estimate of the beginning date and
19 when you returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina?
20 A. I think that I left for Canada -- just a moment -- in the second
21 half of June, and I returned -- just a moment, please. No. Let me
22 correct myself. I think it was earlier that I left, and I returned before
23 the 20th of June. So this was between the end of May and the 20th of June
24 when I believe I returned. I have to try and remember that in comparison
25 with some other dates and events.
1 Q. So, sir, during that period of time, you have no firsthand
2 knowledge of anything that happened in Mostar, correct?
3 A. This is not correct. I knew what I could know. I had regular
4 contacts with the doctors who were in Mostar and I had information that
5 they had, and that was available to them, the information that was
6 relevant, and which was pertinent to the functioning of the medical care
7 of the Croatian Defence Council.
8 Q. All the information you had about any event in Mostar during that
9 time was entirely hearsay, correct?
10 A. During those 20 days when I was not in Mostar, I could not leave
11 my clone there. So during those 20 days, I received information from
12 other people, because I was not physically there.
13 Q. The reports, and they can be placed in front of you, if it would
14 help you sir and I leave it to you, the reports that were marked as D1/359
15 and D1/381, the reports that were about the time when you were talking
16 about the events around Jablanica and Sovici Doljani which Judge Clark
17 asked you about, if you recall, in looking at those reports on Wednesday,
18 or Tuesday, it was, excuse me, those reports themselves don't say anything
19 about what happened in Sovici-Doljani, what you saw, or any conclusions
20 that you reached, do they?
21 A. It is not correct. These reports clearly show that the Muslim
22 side achieved all of their goals and that we didn't. We did not get to
23 where we were supposed to go, where we had to do, and the Muslim side on
24 the other hand, did. I repeat once again: I'm here to testify as to what
25 I saw there.
1 Q. All right. Sir, I put it to you that the reports talk about the
2 process that you told about, no question about that, they talk about
3 meetings, leading up to a mission, if you want to call it that, to
4 Sovici-Doljani, which happened just finally on -- around the 4th of May,
5 the day before the report was written but neither of those reports, sir,
6 provide the Chamber with any information about the actual mission or
7 activities or assessment made in Sovici or Doljani, do they?
8 A. It is not correct. It is not correct that there is no information
9 about that, because as far as I remember, both reports emphasised that
10 there was a visit to Sovici and Doljani because amongst other things, one
11 report says that a convoy that was supposed to go in a different
12 direction, that it had to wait at the checkpoint for us to return from
13 Sovici and Doljani, those of us who had been there. So it says here that
14 the visit did take place and this is also to be found in the report. The
15 report says that the visit did take place and it also says in the report
16 that the representatives of the BH Army achieved their goal and their
17 goal, their objective, was to visit precisely these two places, and I was
18 personally a member of the delegation which visited these two places, on
19 top of that.
20 Q. Sir, the book that is called the "Angel of Mostar" which is
21 D1/383, is it your understanding that that book was written by this woman,
22 Sally Baker?
23 A. According to my information, according to information available to
24 all the readers, whether a book has been written by somebody or not, this
25 can only be concluded from the signature of the author. This book has
1 been signed by Sally Baker. I don't have any reason whatsoever to doubt
2 that. Whether she had help, I don't know, but the main thoughts in that
3 book are the thoughts of Mrs. Sally Baker, and I witnessed some of the
4 events that she describes in the book.
5 Q. Was it Mrs. Baker herself to gave herself the title, "The Angel of
7 A. I don't know who has given the book this title, "The Angel of
9 Q. But however that title came about, whatever else the book may be
10 about, Sally Baker was helping the Muslims in East Mostar, and that's what
11 she became known for; is that correct?
12 A. That is not correct. It's just partly correct. She helped Croats
13 as well, Croats on the western side of Mostar, and also Croats in central
14 Bosnia, who were -- and Muslims on the eastern side of Mostar. So this is
16 Q. In terms of the people killed on the 9th of May, 1993, as I
17 understand it, sir, if you know, most of the attack, whoever started it,
18 and let me understand I'm not suggesting who started it at the moment, I
19 don't want to get bogged down in that, but much of the fighting was in the
20 early morning hours, correct?
21 A. Which people do you refer to as to people who were killed on the
22 9th of May?
23 Q. Any people, sir, on the 9th of May, 1993, killed in Mostar.
24 A. What about them is your question to me? That I haven't already
1 Q. You didn't answer my question. My question to you, sir, was, is
2 it true that much of the fighting that broke out in Mostar on the 9th of
3 May, was in the early morning hours, had nothing to do with who was
4 killed, I simply asked you the time of the fighting.
5 A. When I talked about victims, these victims were falling all day
6 long so I was talking about the total number of victims throughout the
8 Q. Please answer my question.
9 A. I apologise, I apologise.
10 Q. Did you not understand my question? My question is: Is it true
11 that much of the fighting took place in the early morning hours of the
12 9th of May, 1993?
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've been
15 listening very carefully and I really don't know what has entered -- what
16 has been entered in the transcript. The Prosecutor asked whether these
17 victims fell during the early hours of the morning, and the witness
18 replied throughout the day. And then the Prosecutor says this is not what
19 I asked you.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, you may ask a simple question, when
21 do you believe -- when do you believe the fighting took place?
22 MR. SCOTT: With all respect, Your Honour, that's not my
23 question. My question is and it's very simple.
24 Q. Is it not true that much of the fighting in Mostar started in the
25 early morning hours of the 9th of May? It's a very simple question.
1 A. I'll give you a simple answer. I don't know when most of the
2 fighting took place, as you put it. I was talking about victims. I did
3 not say anything about the development of the war events, with the war
4 operations, in which I did not take place, I was not a soldier, neither am
5 I able to assess them or to be the judge of their development.
6 Q. So you don't know, you didn't see the unfortunately and we can all
7 agree that what happened was tragic on all sides, but you were not present
8 where the bodies fell, so when you talk about 100, approximately 100
9 persons being either killed or seriously wounded, by shots to the head,
10 you did not see these bodies in place; is that correct?
11 A. I gave the answer, and that was that I don't understand fighting
12 as fighting. I don't know when fightings take place or don't take place.
13 As far as the victims, the dead and the injured are concerned, I said that
14 on that day, there were a lot of casualties, a lot of injured. That with
15 my own two eyes I saw a number of ambulance vehicles which brought the
16 injured to the hospital. These people were treated. Some of them
17 survived the treatment, some of them died. Many people were killed on
18 that day. And this is all I said. And of course I saw patients in the
20 Q. So you saw these people, that were seriously wounded or
21 unfortunately perhaps bodies, primarily or entirely at the hospital; is
22 that correct?
23 A. It was not bodies that were brought to the hospital but the
24 wounded. I'm talking about the wounded, those who were alive when they
25 were brought. So I could not see -- obviously I couldn't see them all.
1 Some of these people died of their wounds and some survived. So I'm
2 talking about these people, those that I saw.
3 Q. Defence counsel was very specific with you and you gave a very
4 specific answer that you estimated that approximately 100 people that day
5 were either killed or seriously wounded by shots directly to the head.
6 Now, is that your testimony or not?
7 A. I said that on that day, there were about 100 victims, either
8 injured or killed. If I said that every -- and each and every one of them
9 was shot straight into the head, then I was wrong. I expressed myself
10 wrongly. I said that according to what I saw and what I heard from the
11 people down there, a number of people were shot either in the head or in
12 the neck, and that after that, I issued a recommendation that all the
13 soldiers were to wear a helmet, and I myself started wearing a helmet from
14 that day on, and some of my colleagues laughed at me behind my back and
15 they said I got scared. But yes, I did, because I knew that I could get
16 shot even me personally.
17 Q. And these approximate 100 victims, can you tell us again, please
18 or clarify, were they mostly civilians or were they mostly soldiers?
19 A. I can't tell you at this moment who they were, but I know for sure
20 there were both civilians and soldiers. Unfortunately, I cannot answer
21 your question with precision.
22 Q. Well, sir, wouldn't it be -- and again unfortunately, would it be
23 the case, when fighting occurred when people were in their homes and
24 flats, and when people went to their windows to see what was going on,
25 trying to protect themselves but peek out over a window or behind a door,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that many of the wounds or injuries would be to the head? Isn't that
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes?
4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question is a
5 matter of speculation. I think that it's clear that the witness saw these
6 bodies in the hospital and to reply to all these questions, it would be
7 necessary to speculate. Thank you.
8 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you, Mr. Krsnik. Mr. Scott, move on,
10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will move on but we will also object,
11 it's also further speculation of any conclusions that the Defence
12 would draw.
13 Q. How many times, sir, from approximately May of 1993, until
14 November, 1993, did you --
15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes?
17 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I will no longer allow my colleague
18 to give testimony and to come to conclusions which then enter the
19 transcript when the witness quite clearly told me he didn't know what
20 people were -- what sort of weapons caused the shots to the head. He said
21 this quite clearly.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I did not see this question, at least, in the
23 transcript. Well, let us hear the whole question from the Prosecutor.
24 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. President, my question was moving on and I
25 won't belabour the last points further.
1 Q. My question was, starting in approximately June of 1993, sir, and
2 continuing until the end of 1993, can you give the Judges to your best
3 estimate of how many times you were actually physically present at the
5 A. I said that I visited the Heliodrom, at the time I assumed that I
6 had been there, so on that occasion, I personally went to the Heliodrom
7 only once, but my colleagues, doctors who were under me and whom I held
8 accountable, they were in constant contact with the Heliodrom, or they
9 were at the Heliodrom in person. A group of medical personnel was present
10 at the Heliodrom all the time. I also mentioned the detained doctor who
11 was --
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... try to move along so I'm
13 going to try to move along. Your answer is that during that time period
14 from June to December, 1993, you were at the Heliodrom yourself one time.
15 Now, let me ask you about the HVO prison camp at Ljubuski. How many times
16 were you physically at the prison camp at Ljubuski?
17 A. As far as the Ljubuski detention centre is concerned, well, I've
18 never heard about it, I've never heard about a detention centre in
19 Ljubuski. I was never there. But if it's correct to say that such a
20 centre did exist, then I am sure that the health care there was provided
21 by the doctors --
22 Q. [Previous translation continues]... how many times were at the
23 fast I will the at Gabela?
24 A. I'm sorry, I apologise.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be
2 fair to say the military prison centre in Ljubuski. The Prosecutor is
3 using his own term.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there any difference about this term?
5 MR. SCOTT: I don't know of any difference, Your Honour, a place
6 in Ljubuski administered by the HVO where people were held against their
7 will. How about that for a definition?
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, whatever terms you use, so long as it could get
10 MR. SCOTT:
11 Q. Were you ever at a facility, sir, administered by the HVO in the
12 area of the city or town of Ljubuski where Muslim prisoners were held?
13 A. I've answered that question.
14 Q. Your answer is no.
15 A. I didn't say no, but I said that I -- that at this moment I really
16 don't know whether such a centre existed but if it did, I most certainly
17 was never there.
18 Q. Were you ever present physically personally present at an HVO
19 facility where Muslim prisoners were held in the vicinity of Gabela?
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik?
21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I would
22 like certain things to be clear in this transcript. I brought this
23 witness here for your sake, Your Honours, in order to provide you with an
24 entire picture of health care in Mostar. This is what we are all
25 interested. I could have asked four questions and concluded my
1 examination. When I said that there was a difference with regard to the
2 terms, that's true. But I said a military investigation prison. That is
3 the official name of that prison in Ljubuski. And it's a term used by the
4 Prosecutor with his witnesses. And thus he is confusing the witness
5 because when he says a detention centre, well maybe there was another
6 detention centre in Ljubuski. There was a military investigation prison
7 and people went there in accordance with the decisions of the military
8 investigating judge and I think that this is clear. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Scott, use the term used by the Defence
10 counsel. Try to come across this idea to the witness. Let's see what is
11 the result.
12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Sir, were you ever at any time between June and the end of
14 December of 1993 at the military investigative prison at Ljubuski?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were you ever at any sort of HVO prison or detention facility in
17 the vicinity of Gabela during that same time period?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were you ever present yourself at an HVO detention facility,
20 either called or at the vicinity of the Dretelj?
21 A. If your question -- if you want me to say that I wasn't there
22 because I didn't care, if that's what you're aiming at with your question,
23 then I will to provide more extensive answers to all these questions, I
25 Q. [Previous translation continues]... that's not my question. If
1 you would please, I invite you with all respects, Mr. President, not to
2 speculate about what my question means or where it leads, just answer the
3 question, if you would, please, that I ask you. My question was not to
4 suggest whether you cared or not cared. The question is simple. From
5 June of 1993 to the end of December, 1993, were you ever physically
6 present at an HVO detention facility at Dretelj?
7 A. In Dretelj, as in all other detention centres, there was a
8 medical service which had been established, as I have said, and there were
9 people who were responsible for it at its head and they were under me. I
10 was never there personally, but they were there and they provided those
11 people with health care, and I was in regular contact with them, and there
12 were written reports which were also provided.
13 Q. Well, that brings me in fact directly to the question I was going
14 to ask you: In the HVO structure, who was your superior?
15 A. In what sense?
16 Q. Well, do you understand the concept of military command, sir?
17 A. I think I do but I don't understand this question.
18 Q. Who was your boss, sir? Who did you take direction from? Who did
19 you report to?
20 A. I have just asked you in what sense do you mean "boss"? In a
21 professional sense? Or does this refer to the structure of the Ministry
22 of Defence of which I was a part or what?
23 Q. Sir, you were the assistant Minister of Defence for health or
24 health services, who was your superior?
25 A. If we are talking about the structure of the Ministry of Defence,
1 my place within that ministry, as you said, I was the assistant of the
2 Minister of Defence. So that means that the Minister of Defence, within
3 those structures was my superior. But if we are talking in professional
4 terms, unfortunately, or fortunately perhaps, no one was above me. I did
5 not have a superior because I was the highest ranking commander for health
6 in the HVO, if we are talking about the organisation of the medical
8 Q. I am talking about the structure of the HVO Ministry of Defence,
9 sir. So your superior was the Minister of Defence, who during the time,
10 June of 1993, until the latter part of 1993, was Bruno Stojic, correct?
11 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. For sometime, Bruno Stojic
12 was my superior but Perica Jukic was also my superior for a certain
13 period of time.
14 Q. Sir in late, in very late, I agree with you, perhaps we -- can we
15 agree that from perhaps late November, 1993, until the end of the year,
16 Mr. Jukic was your superior? Prior to that, it was Bruno Stojic, correct?
17 A. Your Honours, I have really told you very clearly in my answer
18 what the case was. I have answered the question. I was absolutely
19 precise, as I promised to be, and I corrected the Prosecutor, and said
20 that, yes, for a certain period of time, but for another period of time, I
21 don't know for how long, my superior was Perica Jukic. I have already
22 answered that question. I do not understand why is it necessary once I
23 have provided an answer to ask me the question again? What is the
24 importance of this?
25 Q. What was your reporting mechanism, sir, to either Mr. Stojic or to
1 Mr. Jukic? Did you make a weekly -- a daily report, a weekly report? What
2 sort of regular reporting did you provide to the Minister of Defence?
3 A. We had meetings which were held every week. The reports that you
4 are referring to, I really don't remember how I submitted such reports,
5 but what I do know for a fact is that if we are talking about the
6 organisation of health care in wartime, and how this health care is
7 provided, I had a significant level of independence and no one --
8 Q. Please listen to my question. You had a superior who was the
9 Minister of Defence. What regular reports did you make to him? If any?
10 If you made no reports you can say you made no reports.
11 A. I have already told you. We had occasional meetings at which we
12 reported on the situation in the areas of various individuals for which
13 various individuals were responsible. I then spoke about the problems of
14 the -- of health care, of the health service and there were written
15 reports as I have already said, but I do not know how often we submitted
16 such reports, but they did exist.
17 Q. And who were your immediate subordinates, sir, the people who
18 reported directly to you as their superior?
19 A. If we talking about the profession, about medicine.
20 Q. I'm talking about the HVO Ministry of Defence sir and the people
21 in that structure who were your direct subordinates.
22 A. I understand your question now. The chiefs of the -- the heads of
23 departments and sections of the main medical headquarters were my
24 subordinates. That's the first thing. And then after the restructuring
25 took place, the chief of the health administration was my subordinate, and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 heads of individual departments within that part.
2 Q. All right. Now a few minutes ago you were telling us -- I was
3 asking you questions about some of the HVO detention facilities. Was it
4 your position that there was at least one medical officer at each of those
6 A. That's not what I said. And that doesn't mean either yes or no.
7 What I said was that in all those centres you ever been talking about, we
8 organised health care in all of those centres, and the doctors and other
9 medical personnel and people, they would enter, supervise, they would
10 provide health care for all those who needed it, that's what I said.
11 Q. And the reports that you would receive them, either informally or
12 formally, however the information that was communicated to you by these
13 individuals, you then reported to the Minister of Defence, correct?
14 A. A while ago, you asked me whom I was under in the ministry,
15 whom -- who was under me in the ministry. You didn't even ask me who was
16 under me in the field.
17 Q. I did, sir?
18 A. So I will first of all have to tell you.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you didn't answer me but if
20 you'd like to tell me now, I would welcome the information.
21 A. Well, I don't know what I should answer. I've already told you.
22 You didn't even ask me who my subordinates were in the field so how are
23 you going to know what you're asking me? And how should I know how to
24 answer that question, unless I don't tell you who was responsibility to
1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise but I think
2 it is time for me to intervene. It is obvious that the Prosecution is
3 expressing his antagonism towards this witness and the witness can feel
4 that. I don't think it is necessary, the responsibility for the witness's
5 questions, well the Prosecutor is responsible for this, if he asks such
6 questions, he can expect such answers. Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't sense any antagonism at this moment.
8 Mr. Scott, you may ask that question to this witness.
9 MR. SCOTT: All right.
10 Q. Witness, I'm not going to take you back in the transcript to where
11 I asked you this before so I'll ask you again. Who was your direct
12 subordinates in the HVO Ministry of Defence, whether they were in Mostar,
13 whether they were in the field, who were those people who directly
14 reported to you as their superior?
15 A. Well, I said who they were with in the HVO structure in the
16 ministry. In the field, these people were the heads of war hospitals and
17 they were also the commanders of certain regions, military districts. But
18 they provided me with medical reports, reports which had to do with health
19 care. And these reports and all other reports, if they were necessary,
20 well, they were responsible to their commanders, the commanders of units
21 in the field, and in professional terms, for the implementation of health
22 care, they were responsible to the health administration, to the chief, to
23 the head, to the chief medical headquarters.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. And with that information that came to you, you
25 reported that information on to the Minister for Defence, correct?
1 A. The same thing again. Yes and no. When it had to do with
2 something which was part of my responsibility, I was responsible to
3 deal with it, then it wasn't necessary for me to contact the minister to
4 report to the Minister. I would deal with it. That's why I was his
5 assistant but for sort of overall acts, overall requests, general
6 requests, I didn't come to decisions on my own. I had to inform the
7 Minister of this. And ask for his agreement. Among other things, when --
8 if we are talking about that hospital or certain activities such as the
9 delivery of humanitarian aid through convoys, with which doctors were
10 sent, or doctors sent negotiation teams, et cetera, et cetera. Well
11 obviously the Minister had to be informed of this and there had to be an
12 agreement, he had to it agree to such matters. So that's the answer.
13 Q. I'd like if the usher could show you please Exhibit P578.11.
14 P578.11 and the same time you can please show him 578.12.
15 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, these are very, very short documents
16 that are only in B/C/S but there is only one sentence that need be
18 Q. Is it correct, sir, that as shown on both of these documents, one
19 is indicating it was signed by Valentin Coric, the head of the military
20 police of the HVO and the other one, 578.12 being signed by a man named
21 Ivan Anjic [phoen]. You were one of nine people in the entire HVO
22 military structure, you were one of only nine people who could give
23 freedom of movement throughout Herceg-Bosna; is that correct?
24 A. Throughout Herceg-Bosna? Anyone who was in Herceg-Bosna had the
25 right to move freely throughout Herceg-Bosna. I would first of all have
1 to read through these documents. And comment on them. But as I said,
2 anyone could move freely through Herceg-Bosna.
3 Q. Sir, I'm going to direct your attention and I'll ask the
4 interpreters to help us, please. I'm look at 578.11, after the
5 preparatory lines and then there is a title in the middle of the page
6 starting with the letter Z, the paragraph then that follows, and before
7 the list of nine names, sir, can you read that to us, please, very slowly
8 and clearly so that we can get the English interpretation? Would you
9 please read that? Can you read it out loud, please?
10 A. I apologise, Your Honours, but I would like to ask you why do I
11 have to read this out loud? Can I read it for myself, first of all?
12 Q. I'll ask the interpreters, Your Honour, if it will assist?
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, we don't have the English translations, so if
14 you would be kind enough to read it out loud so that we could understand
15 what it's about.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. Very well. Very well. I
17 understand you. Thank you very much. Well, "At all border crossings and
18 throughout the territory which is under the control of the HVO military
19 police, ensure freedom of movement without hindrance for transports,
20 foreign journalists, employees of humanitarian organisations, and all
21 other citizens on whose permits for movement, for free movement, you can
22 find the following names." Shall I read through the names?
23 MR. SCOTT:
24 Q. No, that's not necessary, sir, the Judges can read the names,
25 including Bruno Stojic, Slobodan Praljak, Milivoj Petskovic and others.
1 And you, sir, being one of the nine, correct?
2 A. This is the first time I've seen this document and I wouldn't like
3 to comment on it, I wouldn't like to say anything about it. I never
4 received this document, but I would like to say the following: Probably
5 given my constant requests to make this possible, this thing possible,
6 that thing possible, to implement this thing and to do that thing, et
7 cetera, et cetera, well, if this document is correct, it's probably for
8 this reason that people said, okay whatever Ivan Bagaric says should be
9 done, should be implemented and whatever he signs we should try to make
10 it possible for this to be implemented. And therefore -- well at the time
11 I was the assistant of the head of the Defence department or later the
12 Minister of Defence so that's how I understand this, although I've never
13 seen this and I wasn't aware that such a document had been written. I
14 wasn't aware of its existence.
15 Q. Sir, I don't think you've told us yet either in direct examination
16 unless I missed it which is always possible, or in cross-examination, who
17 put you in this position or named you or appointed you? Who put you in
18 the position of assistant Minister of Defence for medical services?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just in order to
21 clarify something, the Prosecutor said Minister of Defence but what we
22 heard was the head of the Defence department. That's what entered the
24 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, the transcript says exactly the -- put
25 the position of assistant Minister of Defence for medical services.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We can see that from the transcript.
2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But this is the interpretation we got
3 through the earphones. I don't want the witness to be confused. The head
4 of the Defence department. That's what the interpretation said. That's
5 what we heard. Well that is the Defence department.
6 MR. SCOTT: I'll rephrase it Your Honour.
7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But Your Honours it's very important
8 because in the HZ HB, and the Prosecutor knows this as well as you do,
9 there were departments and in the HZ HB, there were ministries. I don't
10 think there is anything in dispute there.
11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott, you will rephrase it.
12 MR. SCOTT:
13 Q. Who named you, sir to the position you held from approximately, as
14 you've told us, September of 1992, through at least the year 1993? Who
15 put you in that position?
16 A. I think I was appointed by what was the name of it? By the
17 executive branch of the government under the HVO control, so the highest
18 person in the executive branch, whether it was the Minister or somebody
19 else, I don't know, but that arose from my position in the parliament and
20 then the doctor so I could not be appointed as the head of the army or --
21 I really do not know who appointed me, but I was appointed. That's a
23 Q. Sir, I'm going to press you on this. This is an extremely senior
24 position. The most senior medical officer in the entire HVO military.
25 I'm going to suggest to you, sir, you surely must know who put you in that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. It was not one of the highest. It was the highest position in the
3 military structure of the health care of the HVO. So that was the leading
4 position. And also a position of an assistant minister. Whether I was
5 appointed by the Defence Minister or the body that was not the government
6 at the time but representatives of the executive branch of the government
7 in the area that was still under the control of the HVO, I don't know.
8 And I don't know how else to answer your question. Believe me.
9 Q. Sir, how many times did you meet with anyone on behalf of
10 Mr. Naletilic prior to giving your testimony in The Hague?
11 A. I apologise, I was not concentrating. Can you please repeat your
13 Q. Surely. How many times, sir, before beginning your testimony on
14 Tuesday did you meet with anyone on behalf of Mr. Naletilic in connection
15 with your giving testimony here in The Hague?
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, let us hear the answer from the
17 witness first.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I met with representatives of
19 Mr. Krsnik's office just one time. I met with them last summer, from
20 somebody with Mr. Krsnik's office. And they inquired about some general
21 circumstances surrounding my future testimony.
22 MR. SCOTT:
23 Q. Did you describe to them what you knew and what it was that you
24 could possibly testify about? Did you talk about a statement that you
25 might make or the information that you could provide to them?
1 A. No. I was asked whether I would be willing, if the -- either the
2 Tribunal, the Chamber, or somebody else decided that it was necessary for
3 me to come and give my testimony about what I know and what I did during
4 the war, as the head of the medical services, and I said I did, and I am
5 here and I offer my cooperation to this Tribunal at any time whenever my
6 cooperation is needed.
7 Q. So is it your position, then, sir, that prior to taking the
8 witness stand on Tuesday, you had never provided any information to anyone
9 on behalf of Mr. Naletilic about what your testimony would be?
10 A. Except for that one time when I mentioned, the answer is no.
11 Q. Well did anyone --
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?
13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise if I am
14 wrong but I believe that once somebody says on behalf of Mr. Naletilic, my
15 learned friend should be correct and say with the Defence for
16 Mr. Naletilic, because I don't know what it means, on behalf of
17 Mr. Naletilic. It could have been his sister. So why didn't he say
18 exactly who he meant whether he said on behalf of Mr. Naletilic. This
19 serves just to confuse the witness. He could have said the Defence.
20 And another thing, Your Honours, something that -- but I didn't
21 want to intervene. When somebody says, "I have four documents," and the
22 following day you turn up with 20 documents so that maybe the Defence
23 would not do something overnight like the case was with another witness
24 whose name I cannot mention because he was protected, so one day, somebody
25 says four documents, the following day they turn up with 20 documents, and
1 that -- so much about the correct behaviour of my learned friend.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness, are you going to tell us something?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I believe
4 I understand Mr. Prosecutor now. I understand the question. As God is my
5 witness, I -- nobody on behalf of Mr. Naletilic or anybody else, that is
6 relatives, friends, have ever spoken to me about this, nor have I provided
7 anybody with any information, except for that one time when people from
8 Mr. Krsnik's office asked me and when I said that I am at their disposal
9 and the disposal of this Trial Chamber if they may decide that I can
10 explain some things.
11 JUDGE LIU: I thought that, not as long as you understand the
12 question, but now I realise that you did not understand the question.
13 Yes, Mr. Scott, I believe that we finished this part of the
14 question. Would you please move on.
15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, if the Court would allow me one
16 follow-up question.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
19 Q. When you did meet on this one instance, you've now told us sir a
20 couple of times that this was only the one time, how long did this
21 conversation or meeting last? Was it five minutes or several hours or how
23 A. I thank you sincerely if that is your last question, because this
24 gives me hope that I will be home for the weekend. I sincerely thank you,
25 and I invite you to come to Bosnia. I would like to show Bosnia to you.
1 And then maybe a lot more things would be clear to you, and I understand
2 why some things are not clear because you are not from Bosnia. So that
3 one time, I think it was ten minutes, ten minutes altogether.
4 Q. I'm sorry to disappoint you, sir, but I didn't suggest that that
5 was going to be my last question except in response to the President that
6 I would move off that topic with that question. I would like the usher,
7 please, to show you Exhibit P239.11. I have a feeling it's -- I'm sorry,
8 that's right. P239.11.
9 Sir, I'd like you to look at that for a moment, please, and
10 perhaps the English version could be placed on the ELMO. This appears to
11 be an order issued by Bruno Stojic, the Minister of Defence or to use the
12 exact words interpreted here head of the HZ HB Defence department, about
13 the reporting of casualty information. And you were listed or indicated
14 at least in the English translation, on the top part of the second page.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. Yes. I can see that and I'm -- I am aware of this document. I'm
17 not aware of this specific document but I know its source and origin and I
18 know why it was issued, and I can explain that to you, if you want me to.
19 Q. Well, that is in fact my next question, sir. Can you tell the
20 Judges, please, what the circumstances were leading Minister Stojic to
21 issue this order?
22 A. In the so-called chief medical headquarters, later on health
23 administration, we had a department that monitored the sufferings of both
24 civilians and soldiers so we had a data base containing the names of the
25 dead, of the wounded, so we could monitor their treatment, their medical
1 care provided to them, their whereabouts, whether they were discharged,
2 then the head of that department was Dr. Marija Brajko and at one
3 instance, she prepared various documents that we sent to the ground from
4 this area, and on one occasion, she asked to have an insight into the
5 matter because this was requested of her from the human rights centre. So
6 she wanted to be provided with the information on all those who perished
7 in that particular way.
8 Q. Sorry, on a few minutes that we have left this evening, let me
9 just ask you a couple of questions. At the beginning of the document, it
10 says this: "If there is a suspicion that a war crime has been committed,
11 or that someone was killed with cold steel, tortured or mutilated, whether
12 the victims are children, civilians or soldiers, a post-mortem must be
13 performed." Can you tell the Judges was that the procedure to your
14 knowledge that was widely followed or not?
15 A. Unfortunately, at this moment, I don't know to what extent was
16 this procedure followed, but I know that the objective was to collect
17 information on the victims, on the sufferings, and that the doctor that I
18 mentioned was in charge of that, she was affiliated with that particular
19 department for a while, and her goal was to write a book. I don't know
20 what the topic of the book would have been because she never published the
22 Q. Sir, you were the superior of this woman, correct?
23 A. At her request, I could not issue an order to military units,
24 because I was not their commander. So I suggested that Mr. Stojic should
25 do that, and I don't see anything strange about this document. Yes, I was
1 her superior, the superior of Dr. Brncic as well as all the of those who
2 were affiliated with the health care system at the time.
3 Q. Sir at the bottom of this document, I'm sorry, at least on the
4 bottom of the first page of the English version, the English translation,
5 it says this: "All such cases must be reported to the information and
6 investigation unit of the health care sector of the Defence department."
7 So since you were, as you told us a number of times now, the most senior
8 officer in the entire HVO medical department, and since this woman who was
9 give then responsibility was your immediate, direct subordinate, tell the
10 Chamber, please, was this procedure followed or not? Was it information
11 about victims of war crimes kept and maintained or not?
12 A. It says here, all such cases must be reported to the information
13 and investigation unit of the health care sector of the Defence
14 department. So this was the unit which, at the very beginning, was set up
15 as a firm structure in charge of collecting information, compiling a
16 database, providing information. Whether this was followed through or
17 not, I don't know. It would be good if it had been but I believe it
18 wasn't because Dr. Brncic never wrote a book that she promised she would
19 do, based on all the information that she was collecting.
20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I see that it's 7.00.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.
22 JUDGE LIU: It's time.
23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Very simple. Are these all the
24 documents that my learned friend is going to use or are we to expect a new
25 pile of documents to arrive at our desk on Monday? Because it was your
1 order that after the solemn oath is taken that the documents should be
2 given to us.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott?
4 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm sure it is the substantial majority
5 of the documents. Now, the Rule as I understand the Chamber has put into
6 practice is to facilitate and as an aid if in the course of the
7 cross-examination, an additional document comes to my attention yes, we
8 may have an additional document or two on Monday morning and I don't
9 understand any of the Chamber's Rulings to prohibit that. We are provide
10 the documents as an aid when the cross-examination starts. Not that those
11 will be the only documents.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Witness, I'm sorry, we have to keep you here in
13 The Hague over the weekend. I have to remind you that during the period
14 you are in The Hague, you are still under the solemn declaration. So do
15 not talk to anybody about your testimony and do not let anybody talk to
16 you about it. Thank you very much.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you, Your Honour. I am
18 really sorry that we did not find just a little bit more time and bring my
19 testimony to the end, because if the Mr. Prosecutor is going to be honest,
20 then he will admit that there are not so many questions that he can put to
21 me from which he can derive at this or that conclusion. And if you can
22 order him to continue his cross-examination, now, please do so. I would
23 kindly ask you.
24 JUDGE LIU: I don't think it's proper for you to judge the results
25 of the questions asked by the Prosecution. But any way, we will resume
1 Monday afternoon.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
3 7.03 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
4 the 17th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.