Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12556

1 Tuesday, 18 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik? Are you ready for your next

9 witness?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

11 we are ready and he will be the first of our expert witnesses. He will be

12 testifying in open session. It is Mr. Stiepo Andrijic and we are quite

13 ready. Thank you.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Could we have the witness, please?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as the witness is being

16 brought in, or rather, I will examine the witness regarding certain facts

17 which are very distressing for the Defence and this is not the first

18 time. There are also some other distressing news which seem to be aimed

19 at the obstruction of our defence but let us first hear the witness and

20 then I will tell you what this is all about. I do not want to testify in

21 advance because I've heard your warnings that I was testifying instead of

22 the witness so I'd rather ask a few questions of this witness and then we

23 can see what this is all about. Thank you.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

Page 12557

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

2 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

3 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [Witness answered through interpreter]

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

9 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.

13 A. Good afternoon.

14 Q. I will ask you to listen to me carefully, I will give you some

15 instructions so that we can work better. I know this is the first time

16 for you here and it always takes time to get used to this environment.

17 But professor, you can see the screen in front of you, and you can see

18 this dot which is moving.

19 A. Yes, I can see it.

20 Q. I'd like to ask you to be so kind as to, since we both speak the

21 same language, and so as to allow our interpreters to interpret into two

22 languages, as best they can, to therefore wait for this dot to stop, and

23 then start your answer. You will see now how I've finished speaking. The

24 dot has come to a stop and then you may start speaking.

25 A. Very well.

Page 12558

1 Q. See, now it's stopped.

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. Now, will you please introduce yourself to the Court, give us your

4 name, tell us where and when were you born, and then we shall briefly go

5 through your career?

6 A. I am Stiepo Andrijic. I was born 58 years ago, and I will first

7 say what I am doing now and then I'll go to the beginning, to the time of

8 my birth. I'm a teacher, that is a regular professor at the faculty of

9 economics of the University of Sarajevo, at the faculty of economics of

10 the university in Split. I also had the postgraduate studies in

11 insurance at the faculty -- at the university in Zagreb. I am the

12 president of the Society of Economists, Benko Kortolic, in Mostar. And

13 the society of actuaries of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo. I completed

14 elementary education in the place of my birth, then the secondary school

15 in Kakanj, the high school of economics in Sarajevo, the faculty of

16 economics in Sarajevo, post-graduate studies at the institute of economic

17 sciences in Belgrade, which at that time was headed by professor Branko

18 Horvat. I defended my doctoral thesis at the faculty of economics at

19 Sarajevo in 1975.

20 In professional organisations, I held the posts of the President

21 of the society of economists of the city of Sarajevo. I am a member of

22 the board for the economic sciences of the academy of sciences and arts of

23 B and H. I taught the following subjects; macroeconomics, econometrics,

24 international payments. I was the President of the commission for

25 sciences and arts of the University of Sarajevo and a member of the

Page 12559

1 editorial board of a number of scientific journals.

2 Outside the university, I was the governor of the National Bank of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and a member of the cabinet of the Federation of

4 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a minister without portfolio. I headed the

5 privatisation study in the federation. I headed an expert team of the

6 government of the federation for privatisation, which drafted 14 systemic

7 laws, which have passed the whole procedure and have been adopted by the

8 parliament. And my last office was president of the management board of

9 the steering board of the privatisation agency in the Federation of Bosnia

10 and Herzegovina. I believe this suffices.

11 Q. Yes, shall I address you as professor or academician, I don't

12 know what you would rather?

13 A. As you like.

14 Q. Well, then it will be easier for me to address you as professor

15 from my students days. I got used to that. Professor, have you also been

16 awarded for your scientific work --

17 A. Yes, I did. In 1989, the award of the city of Sarajevo for

18 scientific results achieved in the quantitative economics and my work at

19 the university.

20 Q. And what about international tributes?

21 A. I have the award for humane -- the Charter for Humaneness of the

22 International -- I can't remember what it's called.

23 Q. The International Charter for Humaneness?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Professor, before I ask you several questions, and before I turn

Page 12560

1 you over to the Prosecutor, I'd like to ask you whether you talked with

2 any journalists about your today's testimony?

3 A. No, I did not.

4 Q. Did you give your expert work to any journalist? I mean your

5 expert analysis that you did for this Tribunal?

6 A. No, I did not.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can I ask Madam Registrar if she

8 could request the usher to get us D1/389, please? I'm sorry, I'm sorry,

9 we are about to produce it, because we intended to produce it and we put a

10 number, so could the usher please help me to distribute it, to give it to

11 Their Honours and the Prosecutor?

12 Because we prepared it today only, of course we shall prepare

13 three copies for Your Honours. I merely wished to first ask some

14 questions of this witness about this and then during the break, we shall

15 provide more copies.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, could the usher put this document on the ELMO?

17 And I believe that the Prosecutor needs one.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. That's what I wanted to ask

19 you because I have nothing on my desk.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. KRSNIK: We have a copy for you, Mr. Poriouvaev.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, why didn't you do it beforehand?

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] You are quite right and I apologise.

24 I do apologise for not having done it earlier. We shall not be tendering

25 this document. We produce it merely as information.

Page 12561

1 Q. So professor, are you familiar with the article that you can see

2 there on the ELMO? Well, turn around and look at it. No, no, no, it's

3 not that article. Could you then please put the English version on the

4 ELMO and let the professor read the article?

5 A. I'm sorry, could somebody else read it?

6 Q. I don't know, read it, just read the "Croatian Tender Legitimate."

7 A. Yes, I read it.

8 Q. About a month ago, were you disturbed by this article because it

9 says that you'd be prosecuted? Does it refer to your expertise on the

10 whole and when did you read it poor the first time?

11 A. It appeared about a month ago, and I can comments on this because

12 it is very simple. This is very ugly. And when you say something is ugly

13 in our language, you know what it means.

14 Q. I have no further questions with regard to this article. I don't

15 wish to speak in front of the witness, I will wait for him to leave but I

16 want to say that a month ago, in Dani which is a Sarajevo weekly, there

17 appeared an article about the expert testimony of Mr. Andrijic, what and

18 how he will be testifying. It is really curious how they came by his

19 analysis but I do not want to tax the witness's patience with it right

20 now.

21 Professor, would you please be so kind as to tell us if you were a

22 member of any party, if you -- after 1990?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Professor, did you discharge any duty in the authorities of the

25 Croat Community Herceg-Bosna or the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna?

Page 12562

1 A. No, I did not.

2 Q. Professor, tell me, in the authorities of the then Republic of

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which duties did you discharge, until when? When

4 did you leave and why?

5 A. I was the governor of the national bank from the end of April,

6 1992, until the 5th of October, 1993. That means that I discharged the

7 duties of the governor for about a year and a half. As for the latter

8 part of your question, I was dismissed on the 5th of October, 1993. While

9 I was in Washington, attending the regular annual assembly of the

10 international monetary fund and the World Bank.

11 Q. Who dismissed you and why?

12 A. Well, it should have been the Presidency of the Republic of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but at that time there were only three members in the

14 Presidency, and in 1992, they were elected in the regular elections for

15 the Presidency. Needless to say, the signature is the -- that of the

16 president of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. Can you give us his name?

18 A. Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.

19 Q. And was this lawful dismissal? Could Mr. Izetbegovic or those

20 three members of the Presidency, did they act lawfully?

21 A. Well, I'm an economist, I'm not a lawyer, and if there are only

22 three members of the Presidency out of seven, then the conclusions, as to

23 the legality should be taken by those who studied law.

24 Q. Tell us, when you attended regular assemblies of the IMF or some

25 other international organisations, were you ever denied -- was your status

Page 12563

1 ever questioned? Were you denied the right to represent

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina there?

3 A. No. I performed those duties.

4 Q. And did they -- and what about the Muslims, Bosniaks, who were in

5 the presidency or in some other organisations that is bodies, did they try

6 to deny you the right to do that?

7 A. No, I performed my duty normally until the end.

8 Q. So my last question, why were you dismissed?

9 A. I can only quote what the decision it for my dismissal says and it

10 says that I did not perform my duties properly.

11 Q. Would you please be so kind as to tell us if that was true?

12 A. How could it be true if I was attending the annual assembly as the

13 governor, attending it ex officio with all the regular travel orders and

14 everything else and participated in the work, in the -- in all the ways in

15 which it was possible.

16 Q. And my last question, professor, can you explain to Their Honours

17 what were the powers of the governor of the National Bank of

18 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. Well, that is common knowledge. The governor of the national

20 bank, or rather -- has powers or rather the national bank is empowered to

21 conduct the monetary policy and beyond that, it has no other powers. It

22 is an independent organisation and accountable only to the assembly,

23 within the framework of the law, that is even the parliament cannot act

24 outside the law. That would be the most important.

25 Q. And I merely ask you, is it your signature on this expert analysis

Page 12564

1 that you signed in March, that is on the 22nd of March, 2002? Is it your

2 signature?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. So this is your document and your expert opinion, is it?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, professor. I

7 have no further questions. I have your expert analysis. That is your

8 opinion. That is your testimony. And now I turn you over to colleagues,

9 to our learned friends from the Prosecution who wanted to examine you

10 because of whom you are here. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much, Mr. Krsnik. Cross-examination?

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev:

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to distribute the bundle

15 of documents with our potential exhibits.

16 Q. Professor, I don't think that I will have too much questions for

17 you but still I will have a few questions. My first question will be,

18 have you ever been qualified as an expert in financial matters?

19 A. I have never been that, but in this case, I can be that, given all

20 the elements that I have given you.

21 Q. Judging by your biographical notes attached to your report, you

22 had never practised as a bank functionary before you were appointed

23 governor of the National Bank of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is it correct?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. Do you have any written works on the financial matters, in

Page 12565

1 particular on the use of foreign currency in domestic monetary

2 operations?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What written works of yours have been published? Do you remember

5 them? Maybe you can give names, titles of some of your works, written

6 works.

7 A. Those are papers from the area of the arbitration of foreign

8 currency, the conversion of loans, and it is very hard for me to remember

9 all of them, but I can supply them to you.

10 Q. Have you ever testified as a financial expert in domestic courts?

11 A. Yes, I have, once in Sarajevo.

12 Q. Have you testified for the Defence or for the Prosecution?

13 A. I believe I was invited to testify by the Chamber.

14 Q. When was it?

15 A. It was some 20 years ago, ten years before the war.

16 Q. Was it a criminal or a civil case?

17 A. It was economic crime.

18 Q. Professor, you just stated that you were appointed the governor of

19 the national bank in April, 1992, is it correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. By whom were you appointed to this position?

22 A. The Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was

23 its duty and it also had the duty of the assembly.

24 Q. So there was no parliament as such at the time to appoint you as

25 the governor, as in the normal situation they do?

Page 12566

1 A. The war had already begun and the parliament stopped functioning,

2 and therefore the provisions of the constitution applicable to the war

3 conditions had already started being applied.

4 Q. Where did you have your main office in 1992 and 1993, until you

5 were dismissed from your position?

6 A. In the building of the National Bank of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. Is it in Sarajevo?

8 A. In Sarajevo, in Titova street.

9 Q. Did you stay in your main office throughout the wartime, I mean

10 1992 and 1993?

11 A. Yes. I was in my office all that time.

12 Q. Did you have deputies?

13 A. I had a vice governor.

14 Q. The only one?

15 A. I had two vice-governors. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are always

16 three members of such bodies.

17 Q. Who was in charge of all currency operations? I mean with foreign

18 currency? You personally or one of your deputies?

19 A. I had one of my vice governors discharging the duties of a deputy

20 with regard to foreign currency matters.

21 Q. Did you present any annual report to the presidency? Instead of

22 parliament? Since the parliament did not exist at the time?

23 A. Yes, and we also -- the presidency considered all the documents

24 which would normally be considered by the parliament. Those were the loan

25 policy and reports on loans and the loan policy.

Page 12567












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12568

1 Q. Do you remember when did it take place, I mean the presentation of

2 your report?

3 A. I believe that it was in April, 1993, for the previous year.

4 Q. Was your report approved by the presidency?

5 A. I believe it was.

6 Q. Did they make any substantial remarks to you for the fulfilment of

7 your duties as a governor of the bank? I mean at that point, after your

8 annual report.

9 A. As far as I know, they didn't.

10 Q. All right. We'll return to this topic a little bit later. Now I

11 would like to pass on to your report, because I've got some questions. Is

12 it correct that Herzegovinian dinar was introduced as a national currency

13 on the 15th of August, 1992?

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. Can

16 please my learned friend clarify? In our first bundle of documents we had

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina and now the Prosecutor has used the word Herzegovinian

18 dinar, so which dinar is he referring to Bosnian, Bosnian-Herzegovinian or

19 just Herzegovinian.

20 Q. It was a slip of my tongue, I meant of course the

21 Bosnia-Herzegovinian dinar, I'm sorry, I'm awfully sorry.

22 So I wait for your response. Is it correct that it was introduced

23 as a currency on the 15th of August? At least the decision provided for

24 introduction of this currency as of the 15th of August, 1992?

25 A. It was introduced on the 15th of August, 1992, and it was used in

Page 12569

1 those areas that were accessible.

2 Q. And so before this, the Yugoslav dinar was the only lawful

3 currency in Bosnia-Herzegovina, right?

4 A. Formally and legally it was but simply that dinar, effectively,

5 did not exist any longer and all the accounting, all the books, were in

6 Yugoslav dinars.

7 Q. So Yugoslav dinar continued to exist as a currency for some period

8 of time after a new currency had been introduced, right?

9 A. No, no. The new currency was introduced on the 15th of August.

10 Until then, we used the Yugoslav dinar but we had cash problems, there was

11 no cash.

12 Q. My second question, just from this set of questions, was it

13 allowed to use any other currency but Yugoslav dinars before the 15th of

14 August, 1992?

15 A. In conditions of war, all the money that is available is used.

16 Q. I understand you, but was there any official decision endorsing

17 the use of foreign currency in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Honours, I would

20 kindly ask that the professor is taking time when giving his answers, and

21 the Prosecutor may think that he has finished but obviously he needs time

22 to finish his questions, so if we could allow the witness to take time and

23 finish his answers?

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think it's a legitimate request. I myself

25 thought that the witness has already finished his answer.

Page 12570

1 Mr. Prosecutor, you might wait a little bit.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, yes.

3 Q. Professor, you answer my question. My question was about any

4 official decision endorsing the use of foreign currency in the territory

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the new currency was introduced in

6 August, 1992.

7 A. Under the laws that were in effect at the time, and those laws had

8 been taken over from the pre-war Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were some

9 possibilities, some specific possibilities, to use foreign currency, only

10 for cash payments under the laws prevailing at the time, had to be in

11 local currency. However, all the parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

12 encircled and there was no physical access to them. You know that the

13 mint was in Belgrade and that the -- that cash could not reach Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina from Belgrade, and that is why we used for cash payments only

15 the cash that was to be found at the time in the territory of Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina, and the little that was in the vault of the central bank of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina. These quantities were insufficient for the

18 functioning of the payment transactions.

19 Q. Professor, let's go to point 6 of your conclusions. In point 6 of

20 your conclusions you claim that all domestic banks in their operations

21 were controlled by the national bank, right? Which period of time did you

22 mean in your report?

23 A. While I was the governor. I can talk only about the time while I

24 was the governor and up to the time when I was dismissed.

25 Q. I don't ask you about another period of time. I ask you questions

Page 12571

1 only relevant to you. Could you explain how did the national bank manage

2 to regulate and supervise all the activities of the local bank once the

3 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 and 1993 was very difficult and

4 Sarajevo was actually isolated?

5 A. As the central bank, we managed, and all the banks were correct

6 and we had direct cooperation, during that period of time, ten new banks

7 were incepted in Sarajevo, one in Mostar, and licence was given to some

8 branch offices of the banks which were headquartered in Sarajevo and

9 could not have contacts with the headquarters so we licensed them for

10 independent operations, just temporarily of course, for as long as the war

11 was on. This had to be done for the purpose of maintaining some sort of a

12 banking system.

13 Q. Did you receive reports from the local banks on a regular basis?

14 A. The notion of "regular" is very difficult to define under war

15 circumstances, but we did have certain contacts, because at that time, we

16 could not communicate by telephone with Sarajevo, only the satellite

17 connections were on. We tried what we could, and whenever we could,

18 through the office in Zagreb, because the BH government had its office in

19 Zagreb, and that office helped the central bank of Bosnia and Herzegovina

20 as well.

21 Q. Professor, we would be correct to say that in the circumstances,

22 you were working as a governor of the national bank, it was very difficult

23 if possible at all, to control the local banks?

24 A. Not only do I think but I'm sure that we managed, given the

25 circumstances, and all the banks complied with the decisions of the

Page 12572

1 central bank, and I believe that this institution worked to a certain

2 level which at the time was possible.

3 Q. Was it possible to check bank operations by any audit

4 organisations?

5 A. Only based on their reports could we carry out control, and the

6 direct control was in the areas that were accessible, either from Sarajevo

7 or from the areas surrounding Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. Do you think that control over the reports from the subordinate

9 banks is an effective form of control?

10 A. One can't say that it is as in peace time but everything was done

11 to make the system as integral as possible and in conditions of war, I

12 think that it functioned better than any other institution. Again, I'm

13 speaking of the time when I was the governor.

14 Q. Will I be correct if I state, for example, that your allegation

15 about the effective control, is a little bit exaggeration? Am I right?

16 A. I didn't say that. Given the conditions that prevailed, I believe

17 that all of the institutions, the contacts between business banks and the

18 central bank, was good enough, given the circumstances.

19 Q. Professor, as a governor of the national bank, I suggest that you

20 were aware that some local authorities were adopting decisions,

21 introducing foreign currency as means of payment in their territories, and

22 they did it even before the 15th of August, 1992.

23 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. As a governor of the national bank, you were not aware of the use

25 of foreign currency in some territories?

Page 12573

1 A. I believe that foreign currency was used in all free territories,

2 not only do I think that but I claim that.

3 Q. But were the local authorities authorised to issue such kind of

4 acts?

5 A. It is very hard to say, in legal terms, in formal terms, the

6 answer is no, but in conditions of war, something had to be done to

7 provide for people's survival. Even in Sarajevo, when there was no

8 domestic cash, we used all the money that was available, but there were

9 also barter agreements, even in the centre of Sarajevo, for a while, the

10 monetary unit that was in use was a box of cigarettes, the box of the

11 Drava cigarettes. Its value was about 6 German marks.

12 Q. And what about the non-cash operations?

13 A. I am sorry, I don't understand the question.

14 Q. I'm talking about uncash operations, operations between the

15 enterprises just payment by accounts.

16 A. I must tell you that in the entire territory, there were no

17 payment transactions, because the economy, the industry, didn't work, and

18 the little that was produced was distributed and one cannot talk about

19 payment transactions under such circumstances in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

20 In Sarajevo, for example, and another encircled areas, there were no --

21 there was no trade that would require non-cash transactions. Only the

22 population was the segment that did have some cash from the pre-war times,

23 regardless of the currency, and all the currencies available at the time

24 were in use in -- among the population.

25 Q. I would like the usher to show to professor exhibits number 136.2

Page 12574

1 and 136.3. 136.2. That's a decision of the Crisis Staff of Kiseljak

2 municipality; is that correct? Do you have this document in front of

3 you?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. I would like you to read this document to yourself.

6 A. I've read it.

7 Q. Did you have your local bank in Kiseljak municipality?

8 A. At that time, I believe there was no local bank. There was a

9 branch office which was probably closed down.

10 Q. As you see, this decision was issued on the 15th of June, 1992.

11 Was it lawful?

12 A. I can see that.

13 Q. What can you see -- can't you see?

14 A. A moment, please. It's very hard for me to say whether it was

15 lawful or not. Simply this was a war area, an encircled area, and such a

16 decision obviously is not in compliance with the work of the central bank,

17 but it is very hard to leave the people in an encircled area without any

18 money whatsoever because at the time, the Yugoslav dinar was still in

19 effect but they did not have the cash there and what I find more important

20 is the second part of this decision, which says that any foreign currency

21 can be used for payment.

22 Q. Let's turn to Exhibit 136.3.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. As you see,

25 I waited to finish this document. It says as the source that it comes

Page 12575

1 from the ICTY witness. Could the Prosecutor say whether it is the person

2 who signed this document? Did he testify? Or who is truly the source of

3 this document? Because all it says here is "ICTY witness."

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor? I'm sorry

5 about that.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, we got this document -- these two

7 documents and another two documents, really from witness who testified in

8 another case. If it is necessary, we can go into private session. Then I

9 will inform in which case that the witness testified.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [Open session]


24 Q. So professor, you claim that all these decisions were made just in

25 favour of the local population, am I right?

Page 12576

1 A. No, no. That is not what I said. What I did say was that under

2 the circumstances, one needed to ensure the sales, because in that area,

3 one could not find cash. I mean Yugoslav dinar was not available there.

4 So the only solution for this municipality, which is in encirclement and

5 the only solution for it was to perhaps print some coupons which could

6 then be used as legal tender, and you know that any paper money is nothing

7 else but a coupon, a scrip. So this was the solution they devised and you

8 can see that in this case, any currency, that is German mark and dollar

9 and Austrian schilling could be used as a legal tender in an enclave which

10 was under siege. This was a sensible solution and I do not think it was a

11 political decision. It was a sensible decision to ensure some functioning

12 of the economy, albeit minimal.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 A. If I may, I'm sorry, may I add something?

15 Q. Yes, yes, yes.

16 A. In the area of Bihac, coupons were printed and they had the German

17 mark design because they simply could not come by any money whatever. In

18 Tuzla, the same thing was done. In Zenica, the same thing was done. We

19 happened to be in Sarajevo, so that we had physical possibility to print

20 these scrips, these coupons as money and it was different from the money

21 that was used in the rest of the free territory. Of course it is not the

22 same because this was done by the national bank, but in a manner of

23 speaking, any -- every encircled part of Bosnia-Herzegovina had, in a way,

24 powers to ensure some kind of sales, some kind of traffic, and that meant

25 also that some kind of the local legal tender had to appear. These is a

Page 12577

1 purely economic solution, helping not to waste money, to print more bank

2 notes, if there were already some others, in addition to the Croatian

3 dinar, all the world currencies were in use. Thank you.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to show to the professor

5 Exhibits P155.1 and 157.4.

6 Q. Professor, I don't claim that you were supposed to know about

7 those two letters, but what I want to ask you, and I hope you will

8 understand, that there were some grounds for some part of the population

9 of Kiseljak municipality, some ethnic parts of the population, to be

10 discontented with such kind of decisions. Do you agree with me?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, it seems to me that it's the time for the

13 break or not.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have five minutes to go. If you want

15 to finish this two documents.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I've done with these two documents, now I will

17 pass to another topic.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I need to say that in

20 these documents, provided by the Prosecution, the source of them is once

21 again ICTY witness. These documents are without dates. We do not know

22 who these members are because there are only signatures, there are no

23 names typed. Such a document, I can type such a document in ten minutes

24 time, if need be. We do not know who are these people who signed it,

25 members of -- they are members of what? It says members. It says

Page 12578

1 "members, signatures," but no date. What body they belong to, where

2 they -- are they members, who are they writing to? I mean, we just don't

3 know anything.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think just now, it's well that you

5 raise this issue after using the documents. I believe that those

6 questions will be answered after we use those two documents by the

7 Prosecutor. And Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed with your questions and

8 after that set of questions, you may answer the question put by the

9 Defence counsel concerning of the origin of these documents.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I can give you a response just straight away.

11 These documents were provided to us by the same witness who provided us

12 with our first two documents, and they were admitted by us in one set of

13 documents, and that's why they were used here. As for the admittance of

14 the documents by this Trial Chamber, the Defence counsel may file his

15 objection.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Of course, but I also have a question. On the

17 right corner of the B/C/S version there is a stamp. Within that stamp

18 there are some dates on it. I just want to know whether this date is the

19 date for this document or for the filing of those documents.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I suggest, Your Honour, that this is a note made

21 by the investigator while he was receiving the documents from the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed with your questions on those two

24 documents.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have completed my questions with these two

Page 12579












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12580

1 documents. I got a response from the witness. He agreed with me that

2 there were some grounds for discontent of people in the areas.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. May we break now?


5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will break now. We will break until 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.27 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, you may continue.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, some explanations about these

10 documents. I checked with the transcript and I'm afraid that I have

11 misled you a little bit.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: If you take a look at the right, upper corner of

14 the original document, I mean 155.1, you will see the stamp confirming

15 that the document was received by the Kiseljak municipality people, which

16 is 8 of July, 1992, the first one, and Exhibit 157.4, this same stamp in

17 the right, upper corner, the document was received on the 13th of July,

18 1992, and in the left, bottom corner of the first document, you will see

19 remarks made by the investigator. I'm sorry.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, that is the point,

22 and I waited for the Prosecutor to say that, and I'm asking you, on the

23 13th of July, 1992, the internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 could not be called the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 municipality of Kiseljak, and that is what the stamp says. And that is

Page 12581

1 why I started wondering what it was about, because at that time it was

2 called only the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. After Dayton, the word

3 "republic" was dropped off, but in July, 1992, it was not the Socialist

4 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we will deal with this issue when we

6 are admitting those documents into evidence, and I thank you very much for

7 the point you made.

8 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, you may proceed.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

10 Q. Professor, in your report, item E, you analyse in detail the

11 financial policy of Sarajevo leadership, and you claim that they

12 introduced deutschmarks as means of payment, right?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. And what about the financial policy of Herceg-Bosna leadership,

15 which was not isolated at all from the outside world? I don't see that

16 you analysed it in your report. Am I right?

17 A. There was no need to.

18 Q. Professor, were you aware that at some point, president of

19 Herceg-Bosna community, Mate Boban, issued decrees introducing Croatian

20 dinar as currency, which was stated in legal enactments?

21 A. I'm not aware of that but I can comment on it, if I may.

22 Q. First much all, I would like you to take a look at one exhibit,

23 and then maybe then maybe you will give some explanations.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the professor to be shown Exhibit

25 183.

Page 12582

1 Q. What I mean, two decrees, first decree, decree on the

2 implementation on the law on public law and order of the Republic of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the territory of the Croatian Community of

4 Herceg-Bosna during war, or of the imminent threat of war. And the other

5 one, also decree on the implementation of the law on the road traffic

6 safety and so on again, in the territory of this community Herceg-Bosna.

7 I would like to draw your attention to Article 3 of the first decree and

8 to Article 2 of the second decree.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know about the

11 copy that the professor has, but we do not have Article 3 in Croatian. We

12 only have one half of the first sentence in our copy. If you will have a

13 look, this is the Croatian original. I don't know what you have, but

14 Article 3 only has about two-thirds of the first sentence and nothing

15 else. I do not know whether the professor has the full text.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that the English version and the

17 B/C/S version are not corresponding to each other, but I'm not quite

18 sure. Maybe Mr. Prosecutor could shed some light on this point.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I have both articles, Article 3 of

20 the first decree and Article 2 of the second decree, just on the same

21 page, they are all on the same page in B/C/S version.

22 JUDGE LIU: No. I'm not quite convinced about the contents of

23 those two articles.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: That's page 8 -- six, in the Croatian language.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

Page 12583

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] You're absolutely right, Your

2 Honour. I looked at the English translation and the English translation

3 does not correspond to the Croatian original. Article 2 is the decree on

4 the fines prescribed in case of violation of the public peace and order,

5 and in English it is something completely different. Article 3, I can't

6 see it, I see only two-thirds of that sentence. And the rest of the text

7 I cannot see, so that this English version does not have anything to do

8 with the Croatian original, and I'm quite sure that our accomplished

9 interpreters can resolve it in no time at all.

10 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I suggest that the interpreters can help us, if

11 we give them our English version.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. As for the Article 3, are you talking about the

13 page 00860161?

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I mean in English version, the last three digits

15 are 782.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: In the English version, Article 3 of the first

18 decree and Article 2 of the second decree, also on the same page.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. How about the B/C/S version, on which page,

20 please?

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: On B/C/S version, sorry, it's digit 162. The

22 last three digits.

23 JUDGE LIU: I see. Thank you very much. I think that's where the

24 confusion comes from. Thank you very much.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, no, there isn't any

Page 12584

1 confusion. This is what it is all about. The pages that you have read,

2 782, and Croatian version 162, the English translation has nothing to do

3 with the Croatian original.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could ask the interpreters to confirm

5 that.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes. Maybe -- I think that the booths have.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, we also have faulty copies of the

8 Croatian original, and on page 162 of the Croatian version.

9 Booth speaking now, I think that the problem is with the

10 photocopy. We are missing the part of the Article number 3 of the first

11 decree, it's not photocopied.

12 With the beginning of Article 2 in the decree on the enforcement

13 of the road safety law but otherwise we do not know.

14 JUDGE LIU: On page 162, Article 3 I only have one sentence in my

15 copy, I mean the B/C/S version.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: But Article 2 is all right, it's complete?

17 Article 2 of the second decree is complete?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes. That is true, but could the

20 interpreters help us and tell us if Article 2 on page 782 is identical

21 with Article 2 on page 162 of the Croatian original? One can see it with

22 the naked eye. Article 2 has --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, there are two Articles 2 on the

24 Croatian version. That is on page 162. There are two Articles 2. One is

25 the decree on the enforcement on the public order, public peace and order

Page 12585

1 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There is an Article 2 which is

2 rather long and contains a number of figures, and there is another decree

3 which is the enforcement of the road safety law, which has a different

4 Article 2.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. How about Article 3 on the same

6 page? In Article 3, I only have one sentence. I think it's a problem of

7 the copying.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have more than part of

9 the sentence, Your Honours.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, that is not the problem. The

11 translation is completely different.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: What is different? I don't see any difference.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The Croatian original that I can see

14 says, and if the interpreters can help us, "The fines are set and imposed

15 in Croatian dinars," if you can see properly. And Article 3 of the

16 English version says, "This decree shall enter into force on the day of

17 its issue." That is the English translation of the Croatian original that

18 I've just read.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I can't agree with the Defence counsel.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Article 3, that is what I'm doing

21 because Article 3 in Croatian, one can see only part of the sentence, is

22 not what the English translation of Article 3 says. I'm saying that the

23 translation of the Croatian original does not correspond. That is what we

24 see Article 3 translated into English on page 782 and Article 3 in

25 Croatian on page 162.

Page 12586

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid we have to ask the interpreters to

2 translate Article 2 of that decree into English. We'll hear what the

3 difference it is.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, which decree? Because there are

5 two -- three of them.

6 JUDGE LIU: On the page 162, right column.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Article 2, therefore, in the decree on the

8 enforcement of the road safety law on the roads of the Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Article 2 roads "the fines shall be set and pronounced

10 in Croatian dinars in the same nominal values in which they are prescribed

11 in the law indicated in Article 1 of this decree."

12 JUDGE LIU: I see no substantial difference.

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: If you take a look at Article 3 it begins with

14 the same sentence. If it is not complete, you will see the same sentence,

15 about the monetary fine.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll take note of that and you may proceed,

17 Mr. Prosecutor, with your question.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 Q. Professor, did you know about this decision?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. And what about your effective control, then, over the activities

22 of the local banks?

23 A. This is not a decision made by any bank. Secondly, we have to go

24 back to the years 1992, 1993, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and see what could be

25 done and how much could be done. My comment, if you wish, would be as

Page 12587

1 follows: Such decrees, you will find in all the encircled areas of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Tuzla, Bihac, Zenica, and so on and so forth. And

3 you will find the same documents where fines are prescribed in German

4 marks.

5 Q. Were any of those decisions revoked by you? I mean not by you, by

6 the bank, but by the authorised organs?

7 A. This was not under the scope of authority of the central bank.

8 These are the laws of fiscal nature and the central bank deals only with

9 the monetary part.

10 Q. But did you report such kind of proposal to the appropriate

11 authorities?

12 A. There was no communication, there were no communications with

13 Sarajevo. It was impossible.

14 Q. There was no communication with some parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15 but what about Herceg-Bosna? Did you have any communications with

16 Herceg-Bosna?

17 A. There were no communications between Sarajevo and any other part

18 of -- so there were no satellite, fax, connections, and all the districts,

19 starting with Bihac, Tuzla, Zenica, Gorazde, Central Bosnia,

20 Herzegovina, tried under the given conditions to keep their payment

21 transactions functioning in any possible way. Obviously every area did it

22 in the most efficient possible way, and in the cheapest possible way at

23 the same time.

24 Q. But did any local banks inform you of the situation with Croatian

25 dinar and other foreign currency? And the decisions made by the local

Page 12588

1 authorities imposing the use of foreign currency?

2 A. The banks did not look after that. It was not their authority.

3 Again, I repeat, this is the area of fiscal policy. This is not the

4 monetary policy. When it comes to prescribing a provisions regarding

5 fines and payments, and I repeat, every encircled district at the time

6 passed their own local decrees, and fines were prescribed in the currency

7 that was available, which means the cash available. As far as the

8 non-cash transactions are concerned, nothing was being done because there

9 was no economy.

10 Q. Sir, it's quite clear that the situation was quite difficult,

11 but -- but if the fines are paid through the banks and they were paid

12 through the banks, your authorised banks were supposed to know about the

13 situation with the currency, am I right?

14 A. You're not right. Fines were paid by SDK and that was paid in

15 cash or usually in the courtroom. The payment transactions only partly

16 functioned through SDK, very little was done through the banks. There was

17 no, practically no non-cash payments or non-cash accounts.

18 Q. Sir, in your report, that is item G, you claimed that more

19 frequently payment operations were performed in stable currency, and you

20 indicate U.S. Dollar, German marks, Swiss francs and Croatian dinars. Do

21 you mean that Croatian dinar was also a stable currency at that time?

22 A. This is not what I considered, but it was a fact that it was a

23 stable currency.

24 Q. Do you mean that Croatian dinar was stable currency in 1992?

25 A. It was relatively stable because it was tied to the German mark

Page 12589

1 and the rate of exchange oscillated very little.

2 Q. Was it convertible?

3 A. The notion of convertibility requires a broader discussion. Every

4 currency is convertible if somebody wants to take it. The notion of

5 convertibility is no longer -- has no longer its classical meaning, so

6 it's very difficult to talk about the notion of a currency being

7 convertible today.

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like professor to be shown Exhibit 933.

9 Q. Just to facilitate our job here, I just -- attached a covering

10 page to some documents taken from the official Vjesnik on the exchange

11 rate of foreign currency in the Republic of Croatia.

12 Professor, I would like you to take a look at the current list and

13 if you wish, you can look through the Vjesnik.

14 Professor, you just told the Trial Chamber that the Croatian dinar

15 was relatively stable. Please, take a look. For example, at January,

16 1992, when the rate was 55 Croat dinars for one deutschmark. And now,

17 please take a look at November, 1992. The rate of the Croatian dinar went

18 down sixfold, am I right?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, I would

21 like to apologise about our last misunderstanding. It was entirely my

22 fault because I was looking at the left-hand side column of the -- of

23 another decree, and you finally realised that. And I apologise. What I

24 want to say now is that in the Croatian version we can't see it too well

25 but as I -- as far as I can tell, this is 100 German marks, the unit is

Page 12590

1 100 German marks and here it says 5546, and that's the rate of exchange.

2 I don't know who did this Exhibit 5933, whether it was a financial expert,

3 but this does not reflect the ratio in the rate of exchange found in the

4 Vjesnik newspaper offered by the Prosecution. One thing has nothing to do

5 with the other. It doesn't say anywhere that one German mark is 55

6 dinars, because it was always calculated on the basis of 100 German marks,

7 not one, and you will see it in -- that the same is true of schillings,

8 American dollars, there is 1.000 schillings and one American dollar and so

9 on and so forth.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, the witness is an expert in this

11 aspect. I believe he can tell us what it is.


13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please proceed.


15 Q. Do you agree with me that Croatian dinar was not a stable currency

16 at that time?

17 A. I'm talking about the year 1993 and 1994.

18 Q. But we are talking about 1992 and 1993. In the period when you

19 were the head of the national bank.

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. So, am I right to say that the Croatian dinar was a sort of

22 collapsing currency at that time?

23 A. Yes, with regard to foreign currencies, but when it came to

24 purchasing power in Croatia, it was not collapsing.

25 Q. But it was correct that it was beset by the hyperinflation?

Page 12591












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12592

1 A. Yes, with regard to foreign currencies but inflation is measured

2 with regard to the purchasing power of a domestic currency.

3 Q. And why do you think the Herceg-Bosna leadership did not introduce

4 deutschmarks as a foreign currency for circulation in that territory?

5 A. It probably had some cash available to them, cash

6 dinars, and at the time, all the trade towards Bosnia-Herzegovina, not

7 only Herceg-Bosna but the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina, went through Croatia

8 and it was most advisable, and if you wish, most economically justified,

9 to use that foreign currency which figured to the highest level in

10 economic trade. That was economically justified.

11 Q. How was it economically justified?

12 A. Simply, the biggest trade is with a certain state, and it is

13 normal, rather than to convert one currency into another, the payment

14 could have been executed in that one particular foreign currency, and this

15 is often done even in peace time.

16 Q. Wasn't it wiser to introduce the deutschmark as a convertible hard

17 currency, from the economic point of view?

18 A. Then it would have simply been necessary to have enough cash in

19 German marks available. In practical terms it would have meant that the

20 commodity, the it goods that was imported from Croatia into

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, one would have had to buy German -- Croatian dinars

22 with German marks and pay for those goods, and I don't think that it would

23 have been justified to introduce some other money, but the money that is

24 used in the country with which there is a highest level of trade.

25 Q. But you know pretty well that Herceg-Bosna was not isolated. I

Page 12593

1 repeat. And it was easy, it was easy to introduce the deutschmark,

2 right?

3 A. No. I explain once again. It is normal and economically

4 justified to use the money used in the country from which most of your

5 imports come, because you don't have to convert three times in order to

6 pay for the goods, and the imports were not only for Herceg-Bosna but for

7 the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, for Tuzla, Bihac, because that was the

8 only way one could obtain any sort of goods.

9 Q. So what you're saying that the Croatian dinar could be printed in

10 Croatia and shipped to Herceg-Bosna?

11 A. No. This is not what I said.

12 Q. But where was it printed?

13 A. I believe it was in Germany, as far as I know.

14 Q. Professor, would it be correct to say that this decision to take

15 the national financial system, to unconvertible, weak foreign currency,

16 cannot be motivated by any pragmatic concerns rather than by political

17 reasons?

18 A. The reasons were pragmatic and economic.

19 Q. And one more question: That's about your position as a governor.

20 You just explained to the Trial Chamber that in April, your report was

21 approved by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and all of a sudden,

22 in October, 1993, you were removed from this position.

23 A. Correct, correct.

24 Q. Could you explain a little more, maybe in more details, why did

25 they take this decision in respect of you? In your understanding, of

Page 12594

1 course.

2 A. [In English] Okay, okay. [Interpretation] I believe that I'm

3 going to give you the facts, not the way I understand them. Firstly, my

4 removal was against the law, and it was not as the result of me not doing

5 my job. I worked as hard as I could under the given circumstances.

6 Secondly, I was the last Croat in the organs of the Republic of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina who did not want to abandon his post in Sarajevo, and the only

8 solution was to dismiss me, to remove me. Obviously, I continued working

9 as a full time professor in Sarajevo, and at the moment when I could

10 physically go back to Zenica, I continued working as a professor in

11 Zenica. I travelled via Tarcin Kresevo to Zenica, and it is my conclusion

12 that, as far as my work was concerned, there were no reason to remove me

13 from my office of the governor of the central bank. I repeat I was

14 removed because I did not want to leave of my own will from Sarajevo.

15 Q. Professor, is it correct that at some point you worked as

16 president of the management board of the federation privatisation

17 programme? Correct?

18 A. Yes. I was the first president of the management board of the

19 federal privatisation agency. I already said that.

20 Q. Is it correct, professor, that in May, 2000, you were removed from

21 this position by the office of the High Representative?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Could you explain for what reasons?

24 A. The reasons were -- let me be brief, and I could give you the open

25 letter that I addressed to Mr. Petritsch after my removal and there you

Page 12595

1 will find the complete explanation, and in one sentence, in a nutshell, if

2 you want to hear that, the reasons would be as follows: I was never a

3 "yes man" when it came to the discharge of my duties, and since I could

4 not take orders, the orders issued by the High Representative, to carry

5 out privatisation beyond the norms and laws, I was removed.

6 Q. But you were supposed to take orders issued by the High

7 Representative.

8 A. That is not correct. The orders which fall beyond the scope of

9 the law did not exist, but verbally, I was asked to break the law, and

10 written orders were always carried out, and I often, in my conversations

11 with the Office of the High Representative, I asked for written

12 confirmation of their verbal requests, and then that these written orders

13 would be carried out. I would have never accepted or carried out any

14 written order if it meant breaking the law. It is not logical that a

15 person who drafted the privatisation project and with his team drafted

16 laws pertaining to the area of privatisation as the president of the

17 management board of the privatisation agency, would prevent the execution

18 of his professional project. You have to admit that it doesn't make too

19 much sense.

20 Q. And who gave you verbal orders?

21 A. Representatives of the OHR.

22 Q. Their names or positions?

23 A. I don't think names are important. Whatever was done at the OHR,

24 one should hold accountable the front men of the OHR. When I was the dean

25 of my department I was accountable to my faculty.

Page 12596

1 Q. I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit 932. Unfortunately,

2 this document is only in the English language but there are only two

3 sentences that are of interest. Maybe the interpreters will help us. I

4 mean that part of the document which deals with reasons for removal.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, thank you. Your

6 Honours, I think it would be fair and in line with your effort to treat

7 the witness fairly to have this document translated in total, as a whole,

8 if the interpreters could interpret it for the witness, the whole text of

9 the reasons for removal, so that the witness knows what it is all about,

10 unless the witness's English is proficient. I do not know.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am listening and that will be all

12 right.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness is familiar with this

14 decision. We have to give the opportunity to this witness and ask him to

15 explain that. Yes. You may have the floor, Witness.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will ask the interpreters in the

17 booth to interpret the article that is to give a translation of the

18 article.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor? Which article you would like to

20 draw the witness's attention to?

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: First of all the decision itself, that's page 1

22 of the document, and maybe the rest of the text. It's not too much. It

23 means the information will be complete then, and it would be fair to the

24 witness, I think.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, perhaps you may read the decisions yourself and

Page 12597

1 ask the interpreters to translate it into B/C/S.

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: All right. "Decision: To remove Mr. Stiepo

3 Andrijic from his position of President of the Management Board of the

4 Federation Privatisation Agency. This Decision has immediate effect.

5 Reasons for removal: Mr. Stiepo Andrijic has persistently and seriously

6 obstructed in numerous cases the process of privatisation in the

7 Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina in his capacity as the President of the

8 Management Board of the Federation Privatisation Agency. In particular,

9 Mr. Stiepo Andrijic is responsible for: delaying the adoption of

10 international-standard tender regulations urgently required for the

11 implementation of transparent tenders. The non-adoption of the regulations

12 led to unsatisfactory tender results and an obvious lack of transparency.

13 Insisting, against the advice of domestic and international privatisation

14 experts, on the adoption of an arbitrary and unnecessary deadline of 29th

15 February 2000 for the publication of all tenders. This date led to

16 enterprises being tendered without any acceptable degree of preparation,

17 and under the existing flawed regulations. These two points

18 subsequently resulted in the necessity of the Government, for the

19 Government of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina to announce suspension

20 of the tender process. Disregarding the strong advice of the Office of the

21 High Representative to implement the recommendations of the Privatisation

22 Monitoring Commission. Compliance with those recommendations would have

23 led inter alia to large hotels being sold under large-scale privatisation

24 regulations and to more satisfactory results. Preventing implementation of

25 the Federation Government's agreements with International Community. Such

Page 12598

1 agreements include that majority undertaking in specified strategic

2 enterprises be offered to strategic investors. Mr. Andrijic's

3 announcement of 10 May 2000 contravened this agreement. Wolfgang

4 Petritsch, High Representative."

5 Q. Professor, do you mean that they were giving you verbal orders

6 relevant to the implementation of the privatisation programme? Was it

7 Mr. Petritsch or someone else who gave you such kind of orders?

8 A. I will send to the Court my open letter addressed to Mr. Petritsch

9 commenting on all the elements contained in this decision. However, it is

10 in order to provide a brief preparation for this Court regarding this

11 decision. To begin with, this decision, the President of the management

12 board of the privatisation agency is removed. The management board

13 decides in this agency with nine votes and we have nine members.

14 Therefore, the President could not do anything that would be against the

15 will of those eight votes. What does it mean, that only the President is

16 removed and other members remain, stay on? My vote does not carry more

17 weight than any other votes, and all decisions are passed by the

18 management board. No decision could be taken outside the management

19 board.

20 Secondly, this is a basic issue. I have already explained that it

21 does not make sense, and I apologise for a word that I will use, it is

22 even -- it would be crazy, it would be foolish for a professor, who

23 considers the privatisation process the work of his lifetime, in a manner

24 of speaking, that he himself would be obstructing the implementation of

25 his project. All these allegations are incorrect and in breach of law.

Page 12599

1 The deadline of the 29th is indicated but that is the deadline indicated

2 in regulations. It was not just invented. It also mentions big hotels

3 and so on and so forth. The hotels were privatised in compliance with the

4 law. It is also mentioned that the government took a decision, and it had

5 to change it. In our privatisation legislation, there is not -- the word

6 government is not mentioned a single time, under our privatisation law,

7 the government has no powers at all which is only logical because you

8 cannot have a government which may only be in government two or three

9 months and if cannot decide on property which was created by generations.

10 Therefore, to mention the government in -- within the framework, within

11 the context of privatisation is not nice and is definitely not correct,

12 because let me be brief, this removal took place because when what little

13 property, what miserable property remained in the federation, it was not

14 allowed that the -- that its owners become the citizens of the

15 federation. And when we would not allow that they be bypassed and decided

16 to act in compliance with the law, then they decided to find somebody who

17 would be guilty and that guilty person was the one who would not allow

18 that the law be breached. Thank you.

19 Q. Thank you very much, but you did not answer my question. My

20 question was a brief one. Who gave you verbal, and you think unlawful,

21 orders? And what kind of orders? In brief.

22 A. What is written here is all in violation of law and our

23 regulations on privatisation. It does not matter whether it was Mr.

24 Petritsch's deputy or his clerk. To me they are the OHR. And naturally,

25 all the responsibility rests with Mr. Petritsch.

Page 12600

1 Q. Professor, is it correct to say that in this situation, when you

2 were the president of this body, you were giving advantage to the Bosnian

3 Croats and the Croats as a whole in realisation of privatisation projects?

4 A. May I answer in our nice Croatian language? That is not true. I

5 cooperated more with areas, conditionally speaking, that were Muslim

6 because they need add little bit more assistance. The sessions of my

7 management board took place in more than 90 per cent in county seats

8 because we believed that that would also be a help to them.

9 Q. And you were talking about the hotels. Do you know who obtained

10 the hotels, as a result of privatisation?

11 A. I guarantee that the privatisation of that unfortunate hotel in

12 Sarajevo, which is called Holiday because that is the hotel, although its

13 name is not mentioned, and it was sold in a public tender. I guarantee

14 that. In compliance with all possible regulations. Later on, after I was

15 removed, there were attempts to vacate that sale. But that was not done

16 because not a single fault could be found with that tender and with the

17 sale of that hotel.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. To begin with you, it's a

20 Holiday Inn, in Sarajevo. And the transcript says only "holiday."

21 However, what I want to say is the following. This is an expert witness.

22 His expert knowledge, his findings may be questioned but you see what the

23 Prosecutor is doing, and there is sniggering here. They are trying to

24 discredit this man as a fact witness. Is it now the time to discredit him

25 as a fact witness and about his expert findings, nothing? He should try

Page 12601

1 to discredit his expert knowledge and his analysis rather than the sale of

2 a hotel, even though I was very happy for the courts to hear what was the

3 reality like in Bosnia-Herzegovina today, and I am very glad that you can

4 hear what kind -- how democracy is violated in a country under the guise

5 of democracy.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, your last question, I believe,

7 is a little bit out of the scope. You have some explanations on that?

8 You may do that.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I did it because I wanted to check the

10 credibility of the witness. Once an expert is a credible, he must be a

11 credible person and vice versa. That was the point of my

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that you're approaching the end of

14 your cross-examination.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Try to finish your cross-examination, as soon as

17 possible.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: My final question, my final question now.

19 Q. Is it correct that Croatian kuna now is still in circulation in

20 West Mostar?

21 A. In what sense are you asking me.

22 Q. Is it applied in payment -- in payments?

23 A. Only in non-cash payments, that is in foreign currencies, and in

24 cash payments, to make it -- to be very truthful, in Mostar, and

25 Herzegovina, in non-cash payments, the currencies used were the ones that

Page 12602

1 the citizens had in their pockets, so in the former Yugoslavia, even in a

2 non-cash payments, they used German marks or Austrian schillings and so on

3 and so forth, but in non-cash payments only in the convertible mark and

4 other foreign currencies. When I say other foreign currencies, then the

5 Croatian kuna is also a foreign currency.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: That was my final question. Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination? Mr. Krsnik?

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I didn't think I would

9 have any questions but now I have to clear up certain matters.

10 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Professor, do you have the right of appeal

12 against this decision?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. I'm sorry, do you mean that somebody can take a decision and to

15 forbid you from appealing against it?

16 A. Well, that's how it is. That same person prescribed the

17 constitution.

18 Q. I don't understand?

19 A. Well, that same person prescribed the constitution for me.

20 Q. What do you mean? Was it not the parliament of Bosnia-Herzegovina

21 which promulgated the constitution?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Tell us, can that self same man the High Representative, remove

24 other people, discharging other duties, for instance judges and everybody

25 else?

Page 12603

1 A. Sure. And if I may add just one sentence. At this moment I have

2 been deprived of my right of suffrage in the country that I was born

3 in. I have been deprived of my right to elect and be elected.

4 Q. Excuse me, I don't understand?

5 A. That is a fact.

6 Q. Will you please explain?

7 A. I have to right to elect or be elected.

8 Q. And who prohibited you?

9 A. This decision.

10 Q. And are there some other people who do not have the right to be --

11 to elect and be elected who are removed or not?

12 A. Well, I'd rather not talk about it, but I would say this. I'm

13 the only person who was removed from a professional post, not a political

14 one. And that I am now denied the right to elect and be elected, that

15 this vacates the United Nations declaration on human rights and that

16 affecting, because I am denied the possibility to discharge my

17 professional duties, I'm also financially prejudiced.

18 Q. Well, did you appeal to somebody?

19 A. Yes, I did, but the authorities said that they would not

20 responsible for that. That Mr. Petritsch's decision is final and that I

21 have no right to appeal it.

22 Q. But when these rights of the High Representative? Where do they

23 stem from?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. Do you know that judges and prosecutors were also removed in this

Page 12604












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Page 12605

1 manner without the right of appeal?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Uh-huh, and tell us, were you not removed because you refused to

4 accept that, in violation of law, preference be given to Austrian

5 factories and Austrian capital?

6 A. I wouldn't go -- I'd rather not go into that because however the

7 privatisation after my dismissal, after I was dismissed, would I believe

8 prove that particular point.

9 Q. Yes. There are some indication that is that is indeed the case

10 but one would have to conduct an expert analysis.

11 Q. Professor, tell me, was the Bosnian dinar ever minted?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When and where?

14 A. In Celje.

15 Q. And which republic is that?

16 A. It's Slovenia, Cetes is the mint.

17 Q. And was additional money printed in 1993?

18 A. No, because first we could not afford it, secondly, there was no

19 manner in which it could be shipped, and the value and the quantity which

20 was minted the first time, I mean that was the only time it was so.

21 Q. In point of fact, in Bosnia, that is in Sarajevo, there were no BH

22 dinars?

23 A. No, none, or at least very little, from the point of view of the

24 rocketing prices. So that nominal value could perhaps cover up to 5 per

25 cent of all the payments.

Page 12606

1 Q. Does it mean, professor that would be more expensive to mint that

2 money than its purchasing worth?

3 A. Well, it was about more or less convertible, that is it was worth

4 about the same amount of money that was invested in printing it.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we could see that from the statement

6 of this witness. There is no need to ask this question. Especially in

7 your re-examination.

8 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, yes, yes, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.

9 Q. [Interpretation] Yes, of course, but my questions arise from my

10 learned friend's questions about the payments in Sarajevo, how a package

11 of cigarettes was used as a legal tender. Tell us something about your

12 salary at the university. What shape did your salary take?

13 A. It was usually humanitarian aid parcels and if there was any cash

14 at all, then it would be paid in German marks.

15 Q. And did you receiver your salaries in cigarettes?

16 A. Yes, of course, yes, we did.

17 Q. Professor, tell me, is there any difference between the financial

18 bookkeeping science, science and teaching, and the payments and financial

19 transactions?

20 A. Well, these here are the economic sciences but the monetary area

21 is completely separate from the fiscal area, and at the end of the line,

22 the national bank or the central bank is the sovereign, the only authority

23 when it comes to the monetary policy, and the fiscal policy is something

24 which is in the hands of the government that is the Ministry of Finance,

25 and these two things, when it comes to the decision taking process, are

Page 12607

1 incompatible.

2 Q. And you're an expert in banking and monetary fund?

3 A. Correct.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

5 further questions. Thank you, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Clark?

7 Questioned by the Court:

8 JUDGE CLARK: I'm go to ask very few questions because the break

9 is coming up and I believe there is another witness, professor. You were

10 explaining to us in your report and today that following the collapse of

11 the BH dinar, which occurred very shortly after its birth, the Croatian

12 currency was just one of a number of foreign currencies which were in

13 general use in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Isn't that right?

14 A. Yes, it is. Just like any other foreign currency.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Did the BH dinar disappear totally out of use at

16 that stage?

17 A. Yes. There was a negligible quantity of it because in the

18 non-cash part, that is for what was in gyro accounts and in banks, its

19 value had simply melted away. I mean it was negligible. And cash money

20 or as I called it paper, bits of paper, no, that was gone.

21 JUDGE CLARK: I got that point. I was just wondering if you know

22 it this because you were obviously involved in banking and monetary policy

23 n areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina outside Sarajevo, which obviously had its

24 special problems, how were the Armija and the HVO paid? Because they were

25 still fighting together, say in Bihac and in various areas. How were

Page 12608

1 they paid during 1992 and 1993? Now excluding Herceg-Bosna, but in Bosnia

2 itself.

3 A. There were very few payments of -- in the military. They more or

4 less subsisted on humanitarian aid, and one cannot say that proper

5 salaries were paid out at the time. And that is why in the course of

6 privatisation, the salaries were made up for by scrips, but certificates

7 as a kind of legal tender in the process of privatisation. What I mean the

8 salaries were paid later, later on, in notes, in certificates which could

9 be used in the privatisation process, and the same is true of the ABiH and

10 the HVO.

11 JUDGE CLARK: They are a sophisticated kind of IOU. If I could

12 ask you something now which you may not know, in the Republic of Croatia,

13 during the difficult time for the citizens of that country, in 1992 and

14 1993, how were the soldiers of the Republic of Croatia paid? Were they

15 paid in Croatian dinars or were they paid in hard currency?

16 A. I don't know exactly whether they received salaries, if they did,

17 then they received it in their national currency.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Do you know if the citizens of Croatia at that time

19 were happy to receive payments in their national currency or did they

20 insist on hard cash? When I say hard cash you know what I mean, dollars,

21 Austrian schillings, deutschmarks, Swiss francs.

22 A. There were no problems. If one received money in the national

23 currency, the Croatian dinar, then people would very, very quickly convert

24 it into a hard currency. So people didn't find that very important.

25 JUDGE CLARK: I think that you've said, professor, that the fact

Page 12609

1 that the Croatian currency was used by the HVO in Herceg-Bosna as their

2 legal currency did not necessarily mean that there was a Croatian republic

3 involvement in their affairs. I think that's the crux of what you're

4 saying. Would you accept the possibility that it could be open to that

5 interpretation?

6 A. An objective, logical and even scientific analysis would show that

7 these were economic relations, economic problems, and that there were no

8 political components that there, because at the end of the day, both in

9 the BH Army and in the areas which were called Muslim, the German marks

10 was used, and from my point of view, this is also a foreign currency.

11 Obviously a dollar was also used and other all foreign currencies but in

12 the areas controlled by the BH Army, even non-cash payments from the

13 autumn, 1992, were in German marks. So even the gyro accounts and the

14 accounts in the banks were in German banks. In that sense, we cannot draw

15 a line between the parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina either by the

16 government or the way of survival and usage of foreign currencies because

17 they were used in the same manner across the board.

18 JUDGE CLARK: One final question: Do you know if, considering the

19 arguments that you have advanced in relation to Croatia being the biggest

20 provider of goods that were necessary for Bosnia-Herzegovina, in other

21 words the biggest importer of goods, would be an exporter of goods, but

22 for the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, including Herceg-Bosna,

23 Croatia was the biggest provider of goods and therefore you say it made

24 economic sense for the propinqitous parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina to

25 trade in Croatian currency. Do you know if generally, in any of the

Page 12610

1 Bosniak controlled, Muslim controlled areas, the same arguments applied

2 and the Croatian currency was in general use?

3 A. The Croatian was used to the extent of the money being available

4 to them. So both in Zenica and in Tuzla, goods were paid for in the

5 Croatian dinar, if they had it. It was not that one currency was favoured

6 at the expense of another. Everything was used equally and whatever money

7 people had, they used that currency to pay for the goods. In Sarajevo, I

8 had the Croatian dinars in my pocket and that's what I used for payment.

9 JUDGE CLARK: How would you explain the availability of Croatian

10 dinars in Herceg-Bosna, then? Were they being sent from Croatia? Or how

11 were they available as the currency in the absence of that explanation,

12 when currencies generally were in such short supply?

13 A. You know that Croatia had a number of refugees from Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina that these people received money and were accommodated there.

15 There were over 1 million refugees from Bosnia and Herzegovina in

16 Croatia. They were accommodated in Croatia. They received food but they

17 also received some monetary compensation, and obviously, they received

18 that money in Croatian dinars, and that was a lot of money which was

19 donated from the budget to the Croatian citizens of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina. And when they arrived in a certain area where they were able

21 to get to, they carried in their pockets Croatian dinars, and anywhere in

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, they could use Croatian dinars for payment. In

23 Bihac, Tuzla, Zenica, and in the same way they could use a deutschmark,

24 dollars, schillings, and so on and so forth.

25 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you for answering my questions, professor.

Page 12611

1 JUDGE LIU: Judge Diarra?

2 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 Professor, I would like to hear from you whether you were ever

4 criminally charged with regard to the reasons that resulted in your

5 removal?

6 A. I was never convicted.

7 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Were you afraid that you could be

8 criminally charged, and is that the reason why you don't appeal against

9 this decision for which you claim is -- that it is against the law and

10 against the constitution? Because it is impossible that such a decision

11 can be applied to a citizen and that particular citizen cannot appeal

12 against it.

13 A. In this decision, it says that I do not have the right to appeal

14 against it.

15 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] The way I see things, it is against

16 the law to issue a decision and that this decision could be applied to one

17 citizen and not to every citizen, if I understood you correctly.

18 A. You understood me well. The High Representative is an authority,

19 a full authority, and I promised I would send you my open letter addressed

20 to Mr. Petritsch, and I can say before this Chamber that I find it totally

21 inconceivable that one person can deprive me of my fundamental human

22 right, by his signature. That is my right to elect and be elected. This

23 text clearly says that I am no better than a dog in the street.

24 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for answering

25 my question.

Page 12612

1 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions? Well,

2 Mr. Krsnik, you should be very concise. Very concise.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm trying to be very concise. This

4 Chamber finds it very hard to believe some facts, and that is why I find

5 it really very good that they are explained. It is absolutely

6 inconceivable that one person can deprive another person of their human

7 rights but this is what happened.

8 Further examination by Mr. Krsnik.

9 Q. Have you ever been accused of anything? Have you ever been

10 charged with anything?

11 A. No, as an official in the Republic of Croatia, no Croat could be

12 without being charged. That's why my answer was I was never convicted

13 because the criminal charges were suspended.

14 Q. Tell me, professor, let's go back to Judge Diarra's question. It

15 is really inconceivable. That's -- I ask you to try and explain. How

16 come you do not have the right to appeal? Is there -- isn't there an

17 international court in Strasbourg? How can anybody be above the laws of

18 one country?

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think that subject is out of the

20 matter of this case.

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I agree, Your Honours. I am going to

22 submit data indicating that 250 people have been deprived of all civil

23 rights by the decision of the High Representative, without any rights to

24 appeal. And in the same way, that happened to professor, without any

25 legal or constitutional authority.

Page 12613

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Can I say something

2 else as a witness before this Tribunal?

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, professor, we are running against the time, and

4 I believe that this subject is not the topic of these proceedings. Shall

5 we drop off this topic? Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any questions.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Only one question.


8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like to direct professor to Exhibit 932.

9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Poriouvaev.

10 Q. Where do you see in this document that you were deprived of the

11 right to vote?

12 A. Can you please translate the second passage, that is the third

13 passage, starting with endorsing the interpretation of these powers?

14 Q. Yes. In the exercise of the powers vested in the High

15 Representative under Article 5 of the annex 10 of the general framework

16 agreement for peace in Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to which the High

17 Representative is the final authority in the theatre regarding

18 interpretation of the agreement on the civilian implementation of the

19 peace agreement. That's it?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This is beyond the scope of the

22 question of Her Honour Judge Diarra. The Judge asked whether he could be

23 elected, and not that he does not have the right to vote. As far as I

24 understand, Judge Diarra asked him whether he could be elected or whether

25 he could elect others, and he said he couldn't.

Page 12614

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm ready to answer.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I think Judge Clark and Judge Diarra

3 also mentioned that whether his right has been deprived by this decree.

4 So I believe that we should hear from this witness. Yes, professor, you

5 may answer that question.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, in this decision, it says

7 that I can elect others but that I cannot be elected. From the Roman law

8 onwards, and I'm not an expert in law, the election, the voting right, is

9 indivisible. It is humiliating that I have the right to vote for others,

10 to elect others, and I do not have the right to be elected. For me, that

11 is one and the same thing. I cannot accept the fact that I can vote for

12 others and I, on the other hand, cannot be elected. This to my mind is a

13 legal novelty, an invention, a new invention. This thing which says that

14 you can elect others and you yourself cannot be elected in turn.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I think, Your Honour, the document says by

16 itself, and no need to make any comments in this respect. Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The

18 Hague to help us. We appreciate your effort very much. The usher will

19 show you out of the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE LIU: As for the written -- as for the documents to be

23 tendered, we are expecting the written submissions from the both parties.

24 We understand that Defence counsel has serious objections to certain

25 documents used by the Prosecution. And we will have the next witness from

Page 12615

1 6.00 sharp. Are there any protective measures for the next witness so

2 during the break the Registrar could make the preparations, yes,

3 Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honour, we have advised Madam Registrar of

5 the protective measures, pseudonym and facial distortion only.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So your request is granted.

7 We'll resume at 6.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

11 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready for your witness?

13 MR. MEEK: Yes, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

15 JUDGE CLARK: It's nice to see you having a rest, Mr. Krsnik.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. While things are being

19 prepared for the witness, I just would like a briefly to say something.

20 Yesterday, the Defence counsel put forward a motion for a break before we

21 leave to take the extra Chamber statements so that is in -- that would

22 have been between 5th and -- 1 and 5 July. But later on, we submitted

23 another motion, and that is for another break after the Defence for

24 Mr. Naletilic finishes the presentation of their evidence, in order to

25 enable us to arrive from Mostar to Zagreb and later on to The Hague and

Page 12616












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12617

1 prepare ourselves for the testimonies of our witnesses. And that is --

2 and we would like to receive your urgent decision, whatever it may be.

3 The tourist season is under way. The flights are overbooked,

4 accommodation is overbooked, and the flights to Mostar only three

5 times a week, on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, and that is one of the

6 objective reasons for which we asked for a short recess, not only before

7 but after that trip, and we kindly ask for your urgent decision so that

8 we can proceed and carry out the reservations of our flights and

9 accommodations thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for drawer our attention to your

11 motions as for the recess. This Trial Chamber has received the first

12 motion but we haven't got the second motion. I believe it has been

13 furnished through the registry to our office. Now we are waiting for the

14 response from the Prosecution so that we could make the proper decision on

15 that issue. So long as we receive any response from the side of the

16 Prosecution, we will render our decisions on this issue.

17 Shall we have the witness, please?

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

21 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

22 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 12618

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please sit down?

3 Yes, Mr. Meek?

4 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Mr. President. I provided a paper with the

5 witness's name, his pseudonym is NK. I have an additional copy here for

6 the usher.

7 Examined by Mr. Meek:

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


10 Q. Good afternoon.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'll be asking you some questions this afternoon and you'll notice

13 on the screen in front of you a moving dot, but since we don't speak the

14 same language, I don't believe we will be talking over each other. Please

15 in your answers try not to reveal your identity, your protective measures

16 after pseudonym, you'll be known as Witness NK and facial distortion have

17 been granted.

18 Can you tell this Trial Chamber where you were born, sir?

19 A. I was born on 4 June in 1955 in Siroki Brijeg.

20 Q. Where do you presently reside?

21 A. In Siroki Brijeg.

22 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, Witness NK, what your military

23 experience was in the former Yugoslavia?

24 A. In the former Yugoslavia, I served in the army, in 1974. I was a

25 member of the anti-aircraft defence.

Page 12619

1 Q. How long were you in the JNA?

2 A. I was there for 15 months.

3 Q. After you completed that military service, can you tell the Trial

4 Chamber where you resided until 1991, sir?

5 A. When I left the army, I worked in Siroki Brijeg until 1977 and

6 then I left for Austria in 1977 and I was there until June, 1991.

7 Q. Sir, in 1993, were you a member of the Convicts Battalion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you have any primary task in the Convicts Battalion in

10 1993?

11 A. Anti-aircraft Defence, 12.7 Browning.

12 Q. Witness NK, do you speak any other language other than Croatian?

13 A. German.

14 Q. Sir, where did you learn to speak German?

15 A. In Austria.

16 Q. Witness NK, do you know an individual by the name of Falk Simang?

17 Falk Simang, do you know Falk Simang, sir?

18 A. Yes.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up, please, and come

20 closer to the microphone?

21 MR. MEEK:

22 Q. The interpreters are asking to you speak up a little bit, and move

23 closer to the microphone, if you can: Please tell the Trial Chamber when

24 you first met Falk Simang?

25 A. At the beginning of 1993.

Page 12620

1 Q. Can you describe the circumstances of meeting Falk Simang in

2 1993?

3 A. I was in the Park Restaurant. I was having a drink, when Ralf

4 brought him to me and told me, "We have another German."

5 Q. First, where is the Park Restaurant located, which city?

6 A. In Siroki Brijeg.

7 Q. And for the Trial Chamber's reference, who is Ralf that brought

8 Falk Simang to you?

9 A. Ralf Rudiger. That's how he introduced himself to me.

10 Q. Do you know who Ralf Rudiger brought Falk Simang to you?

11 A. Because I was the only one to be able to communicate with him in

12 German.

13 Q. Sir, do you know how long Falk Simang stayed with the Convicts

14 Battalion after you met him in 1993?

15 A. Until the end of 1993, throughout the conflicts between the Army

16 of BH and the HVO.

17 Q. And can you tell us what was your relationship to Falk Simang in

18 the Convicts Battalion?

19 A. At the beginning, that relationship was normal and later on, I saw

20 that he was a liar first and foremost, and then he was an alcoholic. He

21 was not normal. He behaved like a savage.

22 Q. During the year of 1993, Witness NK, did anyone in the Convicts

23 Battalion, beside yourself, act as a translator for Falk Simang?

24 A. 99 per cent of time it was me. When he met with Mr. Andabak, and

25 that was just by accident, then he could maybe exchange a few words with

Page 12621

1 him, but 99 per cent of time, it was me, he was with me all the time.

2 Q. Did Ralf Rudiger inform you who it was who told him to bring

3 Falk Simang to you in the Park Restaurant?

4 A. He told me that they met with Andabak first and that Andabak told

5 him to bring him to me.

6 Q. During 1993, can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately what

7 percentage of the time you spent with Falk Simang?

8 A. Well, 99 per cent. We were together all the time. He couldn't go

9 anywhere. I mean he couldn't put two Croatian words together.

10 Q. Where did Falk Simang live in 1993, to your knowledge, sir?

11 A. In Siroki Brijeg, at times he slept in the hotel, at times at my

12 place, at times at that girl's place, that he had there, Marina.

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, if you need some information from this

17 witness, you have to understand this witness is under protective measures.

18 MR. MEEK: Could we go it private session, Your Honour?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

20 [Private session]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12622

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Open session]


6 Q. Sir, did you know a man named Vlado or Maximilian Reich in the

7 Convicts Battalion?

8 A. I know a man called Vlado Susak who is from Siroki Brijeg and that

9 other Vlado, I don't know him.

10 Q. Does Vlado Susak speak German, to your knowledge, sir?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did you know Maximilian Reich?

13 A. I do. I saw him in Siroki Brijeg on two occasions, so as far as I

14 know, he was at the Heliodrom, as far as I know, with the -- ATG.

15 Q. Sir, did you and Falk Simang participate in any action in Doljani

16 around April 19th, 20th of 1993?

17 A. No. That day, I had to take my mother to Mostar to an eye clinic

18 because she had to have her cataract operated on and Falk came with me.

19 I wasn't up there and he couldn't be there either.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Meek, I don't recall any of this being put to

21 Mr. Simang. This is very specific. It wasn't suggested to Mr. Simang

22 that he was in a certain place because he wasn't with this witness. Don't

23 you think it should have been put to him?

24 MR. MEEK: Well, Your Honour, it may well should have been, but as

25 you're well aware being a practising lawyer we sometimes don't know all

Page 12623

1 the facts until after the fact, so we didn't discover some things until

2 after the fact obviously.

3 JUDGE CLARK: Obviously it would have served the Chamber much

4 better if we could have had Mr. Semang's reaction to such an important

5 opposite of alibi.

6 MR. MEEK: That may well have been true, Judge Clark, but in

7 criminal trials Falk Simang gave several statements and as you recall he

8 testified somewhat inconsistently.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Let's not talk about that in front of the witness.

10 I'm making the comment this is a very material aspect of the case and it's

11 a pity that your case wasn't put specifically, I accept what you say, that

12 at the time you didn't know that was going to be the case.

13 MR. MEEK: We discover evidence daily, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Well, you know where you and I are practising, you

15 would certainly be in trouble for not having put a specific case to a

16 witness, but in war crimes, I accept trials last much longer. Different

17 forum.

18 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Witness NK, did you attend the funeral of Cikota in April of

20 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see Mladen Naletilic at that funeral?

23 A. Yes. I heard that he was there but there were too many people

24 there. There were over 3.000 people there. So I couldn't see him. I

25 mean we could not fit even near the cemetery, let alone in the cemetery.

Page 12624

1 Q. And during that funeral, was Falk Simang present with you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After Cikota's death, did you hear stories from other soldiers and

4 individuals about how he died?

5 A. I heard that he was killed somewhere on the surrounding hills,

6 around Jablanica, at some high feature but I wasn't there, I cannot say

7 where exactly.

8 Q. Sir, did these stories get passed on to Falk Simang by you?

9 A. Yes, there was nobody else he could hear it from.

10 Q. Sir, did you and -- did you or Falk Simang travel to Doljani after

11 Cikota's funeral for any reason?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Witness NK, where were you on the morning of 9 May, 1993?

14 A. At home in Siroki Brijeg, at home.

15 Q. Did anything happen that morning?

16 A. Yes. Andabak called me and told me to go up on the hill, Galac,

17 which is above Mostar in the direction of Siroki Brijeg, over there.

18 Q. What did you do, sir, after you received that phone call from

19 Mr. Andabak?

20 A. I went to fetch Falk Simang, then we went to get Ralf, Ralf was

21 down in the town. Then we took a car and came out around 11.00 in the

22 morning we got to Galac.

23 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, what was your task that day

24 at that location, Galac?

25 A. Our task was, in case of fighting breaking out, to break through

Page 12625

1 the front line and that we should guard the rear, to prevent them from

2 getting up the hill.

3 Q. And in what fashion would you have been able to accomplish that on

4 that hill?

5 A. In what way? Well, had the Army of BH broken through the front

6 lines and headed towards Siroki Brijeg, we would have opened fire.

7 Q. What would you have opened fire with, sir?

8 A. 12.7, that is the Browning, 12.7 millimetres, it is a Russian

9 weapon.

10 Q. Is that an anti-aircraft gun, in other words?

11 A. Yes. It can be used against -- against troops and against

12 aircraft, both.

13 Q. Witness, can you tell the Trial Chamber how long you, Ralf and

14 Falk Simang stayed at that location overlooking Mostar after you arrived

15 approximately 11.00 a.m. On the 9th of May?

16 A. We returned on the 10th, sometime around 2.00 or 3.00 in the

17 afternoon. We just went back to Siroki Brijeg.

18 Q. When you say, "We," was it all three of you?

19 A. Of course.

20 Q. Witness NK, did you ever know of any action in which Falk Simang

21 participated in which you did in the participate in?

22 A. No. That is not possible.

23 Q. Witness NK, to your knowledge, did the Convicts Battalion have any

24 "Bofors" guns, known as Bofors?

25 A. No, only the Browning 12.7. Bofors are 40 millimetres and BIM,

Page 12626

1 that is anti-aircraft, is 12.7 millimetres.

2 Q. Was that the largest gun that the Convicts Battalion had at

3 their -- in their possession?

4 A. The largest calibre in our unit and that was the 12.7 millimetre

5 Browning, yes, 12.7 millimetres.

6 Q. Did the Convicts Battalion have access to any tanks, to your

7 knowledge?

8 A. No, no way.

9 Q. Sir, when you were manning the Browning 12.7 millimetre gun, did

10 you use Motorolas for communication?

11 A. Why, of course. We had to maintain contact.

12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, sir, who was it that you would

13 receive orders from via this Motorola?

14 A. From Ivan Andabak and Zeljko Vukoja, who was responsible for that.

15 Q. Witness NK, did you ever receive any orders over the Motorola from

16 Mladen Naletilic, Tuta?

17 A. No.

18 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, any cross-examination?

20 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. There are some materials that

21 we've prepared for the cross-examination. I think they have been

22 distributed to the Trial Chamber, if we could distribute those now to our

23 colleagues on the Defence bench? I've also got a set here I'm going to

24 give to the usher, Mr. President. This is a set for the usher that are

25 tabbed so that the usher will be able to get to specific documents more

Page 12627

1 quickly.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer:

3 Q. Sir, what was your rank at the time you were a member of the

4 Convicts Battalion?

5 A. I didn't have a rank. I was a foot soldier.

6 MR. STRINGER: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm just going to try to

7 get organised with the --

8 Q. You did not hold a position of superior responsibility within the

9 Convicts Battalion?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When did you join the Convicts Battalion?

12 A. In early 1992.

13 Q. Were you a participant in the campaign against the Serbs to

14 liberate Mostar in June of 1992?

15 A. I did.

16 Q. Did Mladen Naletilic play a role as a commander or leader of the

17 Convicts Battalion in connection with that campaign?

18 A. Yes, with the Serb fighting, yes, but there were several

19 commanders, Pero Cavar, Andabak, there was Mikulic, Marinko Mikulic.

20 Q. At the time, sir, did Mr. Naletilic hold the highest position

21 within the Convicts Battalion?

22 A. Oh, come, no. I mean, all these positions were the same. The

23 thing was to defend successfully Siroki Brijeg. Nobody paid attention to

24 positions.

25 MR. STRINGER: I'd ask the witness be shown Exhibit 354.1.

Page 12628

1 Q. Witness, the documents that you're going to be shown exist in both

2 languages, English and your language. So what you're looking at there is

3 the English language translation. The next page is probably will be more

4 useful to you. Does that appear, sir, to be a HVO identification card for

5 Falk Simang?

6 A. Yes. I think so, yes, it is.

7 Q. Were cards like this issued to all the members of the Convicts

8 Battalion, as far as you knew?

9 A. All the identity cards were the same.

10 Q. You testified that Mr. Simang arrived, I believe, in early 1993.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And he stayed as a member of the Convicts Battalion for the

13 remainder of the conflict with the Muslims, perhaps in early 1994?

14 A. In the end of 1993, perhaps, in November, he was there, and then

15 he left, he never reported to anyone, he simply vanished.

16 Q. Mr. Naletilic spoke German, is that true, sir?

17 A. Why, of course, if he lived in Germany, it's natural that he would

18 speak German.

19 Q. So that he had the ability to communicate directly with all of the

20 other Convicts Battalion members who had come from Germany?

21 A. Why, he could, if they came across one another in Siroki Brijeg

22 somewhere.

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12629

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12630

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12631

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 JUDGE LIU: I see.

19 MR. MEEK: See what I mean?

20 JUDGE LIU: If you believe so.

21 MR. MEEK: I think so.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer you have to be very careful about

23 the protective measures. If you need we could go to the private session.

24 MR. STRINGER: I don't think it's necessary at this point,

25 Mr. President. I agree with my learned friend, though, it's probably

Page 12632












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12633

1 necessary to redact some of the earlier testimony about the incident in

2 the restaurant.

3 Q. Witness, you have the Exhibit 931A in front of you. Does that

4 appear, or is that your HVO identification card from when you were a

5 member of the Convicts Battalion?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. STRINGER: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit 931B.

8 Q. Sir, does this appear to be the back side, the flip side, of your

9 HVO identification card?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, sir, to the bottom right-hand

12 corner of the document you just looked at and ask you if you can identify

13 for us the name of the commander or the chief whose signature appears on

14 that card.

15 A. I can't really figure it out.

16 Q. Does it say Tuta? Tuta? Is that correct?

17 A. Well, this looks more like a "P" to me rather than "T." From what

18 I can see.

19 Q. Have you ever heard of someone named Puta, P-U-T-A? Who is that,

20 Puta?

21 A. I said that I can't figure out this signature.

22 Q. What about Tuta? Sir? Let me put it to you, this is Tuta, whose

23 name appears on your card and who was a commander of the Convicts

24 Battalion of which you were a member. Isn't that true?

25 A. He was a commander in 1992. But for a very short time.

Page 12634

1 MR. STRINGER: I ask the witness be shown Exhibit P436.

2 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, while my learned friend is on Exhibit

3 P931B, the -- I don't speak Croatian, but above the signature which my

4 learned colleague --

5 MR. STRINGER: I apologise for the interruption, if there is going

6 to be an objection to the exhibit I suggest it be done outside the

7 presence of the witness.

8 MR. MEEK: I object to the fact that it's a Convicts Battalion

9 whether above it states it's the Siroki Brijeg brigade that's my

10 objection.

11 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I object to this continuing

12 testimony from counsel in the presence of witnesses supporting objections

13 that can be made outside the presence of witnesses. Now, it doesn't say

14 what counsel just said. The witness has the exhibit. It's his own

15 identification card. He's best situated to tell us about it, not Defence

16 counsel and not in the presence of the witness.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I believe that you could raise this

18 objection when we are admitting those documents into the evidence.

19 MR. MEEK: I apologise, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: But I also have a question to Mr. Stringer. First of

21 all, this document has not been translated into English, which we are in a

22 disadvantaged position to know the contents of this document. Secondly,

23 what's the time that document is issued? You may put this question to the

24 witness. If you know, you could furnish us with this information, but you

25 could put this question to the witness.

Page 12635


2 Q. Witness, was this card issued to you at the time you joined the

3 Convicts Battalion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did this remain your identification card throughout the period of

6 time that you were a member of the Convicts Battalion?

7 A. Yes. The IDs were changed and I have two.

8 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, in terms of the translation of the

9 text on this, we can furnish that to the Trial Chamber. I think that for

10 the time being, the Trial Chamber can look to the translation of the Falk

11 Simang identification card, which was already identified.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I believe that could be a reference.

13 MR. STRINGER: Yes, but we will submit a translation of this

14 document.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.


17 Q. Witness, do you have Exhibit 436 in front of you? Again, what

18 you're going to see on the top couple of pages -- yes?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. On the top couple of pages you'll see English language which is

21 the translation. Underneath that, the third and the fourth pages are in

22 your language. Would you take a moment to look at those documents,

23 please?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I want to ask you, sir, the handwritten note which appears there

Page 12636

1 over the name Tuta, do you see that?

2 A. Just a moment, please.

3 MR. MEEK: Perhaps Mr. Stringer could explain if this is one

4 document or two. I'm seeing in the original Croatian version a

5 typewritten -- again I can't read it but apparently something signed,

6 allegedly by I think Miljenko Lasic, and there is another separate page

7 behind it. The original -- I mean was this written on the back allegedly

8 or two separate documents? That's my question, I guess.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

10 MR. STRINGER: It's one exhibit, it's two separate documents,

11 Mr. President, if you look at the type written order from Miljenko Lasic,

12 it refers to issuing an order or certificate that the family of Mr. Pero

13 Jurcevic is not to be bothered or troubled at the place they live

14 it's dated 8 June 1993, at the back of that is a handwritten note from

15 Tuta, kindly asking that the flat of this person be protected so that the

16 documents are linked in that way.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.


19 Q. Witness, do you know if that is the signature of Mladen Naletilic,

20 Tuta, appearing at the bottom of the handwritten note?

21 A. Yes. One signature is Mico Lasic's and the other could be, but it

22 doesn't have to be. I'm not sure.

23 MR. STRINGER: I'll ask the witness be shown Exhibit 696.

24 Q. Witness, you were a member of the Convicts Battalion in November

25 of 1993?

Page 12637












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12638

1 A. In 1993? Yes.

2 Q. Do you know the name Robert Nosic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Are you aware of an incident which occur, sir, in November of

5 1993, in which Mr. Naletilic and other members of the Convicts Battalion

6 removed a prisoner from the military police headquarters in Mostar, the

7 prisoner's name was Robert Nosic? It was alleged that he had shot and

8 injured a member of the Convicts Battalion. Does that incident ring a

9 bell at all with you, sir?

10 A. I don't know anything about that. I wasn't there, and I can't

11 tell you anything about that.

12 Q. Looking at this document, sir, this is a document written by

13 someone named Marijan Biskic, Colonel Marijan Biskic, in the military

14 police of the HVO. It's addressed to the HVO Convicts Battalion

15 commander, Mladen Naletilic, personally. My question, sir, is whether in

16 fact Mladen Naletilic was the commander of the Convicts Battalion in

17 November of 1993.

18 A. No.

19 Q. So this Colonel Biskic here, he's mistaken? He's addressed this

20 letter to the wrong person?

21 A. Yes. I believe that he was mistaken. I'm sure.

22 MR. STRINGER: Could we show the Exhibit P299.1? And also

23 P301.1?

24 Q. You testified about Sovici Doljani in April of 1993, you were

25 taking your mother to the eye doctor. Did other members of the Convicts

Page 12639

1 Battalion engage in combat operations in Sovici Doljani in mid-April,

2 1993?

3 A. I don't know anything about that. I didn't go there. I took my

4 mother to the hospital and I don't know about that. I can't tell you

5 about things that, if I wasn't there.

6 Q. Well, sir, you told us about the death of Cikota up there, which,

7 despite the fact that you weren't present when that happened. My

8 question, again, sir, you were a member of the Convicts Battalion, you

9 were in Siroki Brijeg, isn't it true, sir, that units of the Convicts

10 Battalion engaged in combat operations in Sovici Doljani in mid-April,

11 1993? Isn't that true?

12 A. Could be that it is, but I wasn't there. How can I know who was?

13 I just heard that Cikota was killed somewhere around Jablanica in some

14 mountains or hills. I wasn't there. So I can't claim that, and I can't

15 say that for a fact.

16 Q. Do you know a place called Sovicka Vrata?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you look at Exhibit 299.1, please? Sir, this is a document

19 dated 15 April, 1993. And this is an order that's being issued pursuant

20 to agreements with various persons including Mladen Naletilic, Tuta;

21 Colonel Ivan Andabak; and this orders that a PV -- PDV platoon and a

22 reconnaissance squad are to go to this place Sovicka Vrata on the 15th of

23 April, 1993, at 10.00 in the morning. What's a PDV platoon, if you know?

24 A. I don't know. I don't know what PDV is. I heard that there is an

25 a tax called PDV in Croatia but PDV here.

Page 12640

1 Q. Is Sovicka Vrata, sir, a feature or a location above the village

2 of Doljani?

3 A. Yes. That is towards Blidinje, at the very far end.

4 Q. Have you ever been to this place?

5 A. I was, later on, after the war finished, because I have my land

6 there on Blidinje.

7 Q. The Convicts Battalion was involved in combat operations in

8 Doljani again later, in the summer of 1993, is that true?

9 A. No. I'm not aware of that, and I'm not a commander who should

10 know everything. I am just a foot soldier.

11 Q. Where did you go with Simang, Falk Simang, during the year or so

12 that he was with the unit? You were with him 99 per cent of the time, so

13 tell us what military operations did you participate in, if any, or did

14 you just always stay in Siroki Brijeg with Mr. Simang?

15 A. We were not always in Siroki Brijeg. I was on Galac Mount and on

16 30 June, I was on Djubrani holding a reserve position there, together with

17 Falk and Ralf.

18 Q. What about Travnik?

19 A. I was not in Travnik. I have never been to Travnik, either before

20 or after.

21 Q. Sir, directing your attention to Exhibit 301.1, I think you have

22 that there, this is dated 16 April, 1993. Item number 2 talks about a

23 wire connection with facilities in Boksevica, also in Sovicka Vrata. Do

24 you see that? And then continuing on, there is reference to various

25 artillery pieces that are being placed at Sovicka Vrata. Do you see the

Page 12641

1 reference to the three 122 millimetre howitzers, 130 millimetre battle

2 tanks? Now my question, sir, is whether -- you testified about the

3 armaments that the Convicts Battalion had. Isn't it true, sir, that the

4 Convicts Battalion had at its disposal or was supported by artillery of

5 various calibres in many of its combat operations, including the operation

6 in Sovici on this day?

7 A. No. Sovici is the area of Posusje and it is there area of

8 responsibility. It is not the area of responsibility of Siroki Brijeg.

9 Q. If I could direct your attention, sir, to item number 7, isn't it

10 a fact, sir, that Mladen Naletilic, Tuta, was there at Sovici in charge of

11 the operation, coordinating the operation through the units and the

12 artillery that was deployed at Sovicka Vrata?

13 A. He couldn't be there because he was not a commander. He withdrew

14 from the Convicts Battalion in 1992, sometime in July, for health

15 reasons. So he couldn't be there. He wasn't there. He could only go for

16 a walk as a private individual. But that is all. And I wasn't there and

17 I can't say anything for a fact.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, I think it's time. We will resume

19 at 9.00.

20 MR. MEEK: Your Honour?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek?

22 MR. MEEK: I had 22 minutes of direct examination with this

23 witness and about 35 minutes on cross-examination. I'm wanting to know

24 what the rule is in the Trial Chamber in regards to the length of time

25 that -- I've always felt it was -- cross was the same length as direct.

Page 12642

1 And we were held to that in our case pretty much, I believe. We are

2 trying to finish this case as best we can, and I don't think it's fair --

3 this witness has been here for over a week now. We have -- I don't know

4 if the Trial Chamber knows it, we have gotten punished quite a bit by the

5 Registrar because of the mishap two weeks ago. We have 12 witnesses,

6 11 witnesses in town right now. We are trying our best to get this done

7 and get this finished. My question is, Your Honour, I believe that -- I

8 think the equality of arms issue is being violated if the Prosecution can

9 spend one, two hours on a witness we have on the stand for 22 minutes.

10 Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Meek, I appreciate your efforts, that your

12 direct examination is expeditious, and I believe that this -- today, all

13 the witnesses gave their testimony in a very speedy way. And I'll consult

14 with my colleagues after the Court to see how much time we will allocate

15 to the cross-examination to this witness. But we have to be out of this

16 courtroom at 7.00 sharp.

17 MR. MEEK: Thank you, Your Honour. My only motion is that the

18 Prosecution be held to the same amount of time as the direct examination.

19 JUDGE LIU: I understand that. Mr. Krsnik it's after 7.00.

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Your Honours, we have

21 brought before you a number of members of the Convicts Battalion, and they

22 are going to give their testimony before you. That's the next 15

23 witnesses. That is why we are focusing on very specific things. We have

24 our next ten witnesses who are also members of the Convicts Battalion, and

25 we are now just focusing on certain parts of the indictment, or we are

Page 12643

1 focusing on the testimonies of the previous witnesses. We have a number

2 of witnesses and you will be able to hear all of them.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, we really don't have time to

4 debate on this issue. We will come back and this issue tomorrow morning.

5 We will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in the same courtroom.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

7 7.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

8 the 19th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.