Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12915

1 Tuesday, 25 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Bos, you may proceed.

10 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 WITNESS: WITNESS NN [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Bos: [Continued]

14 Q. Good morning, Witness NN.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. I have some questions to ask this morning. Witness NN I'd like to

17 take you to the 15th of April, 1993. Is it correct that that was the day

18 that you were trying to get to Jablanica and that you were stopped at the

19 checkpoint at Jablanica; is that correct?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning, Your

22 Honours. I don't have any objections. I would kindly ask if there is

23 anything that can be done for me not to watch the witness as if he was on

24 a videolink. Can the partition be moved a little so I can see the

25 witness? As things stand now, I have a feeling that I'm watching him on a

Page 12916

1 TV screen via a videolink. Thank you very much.

2 JUDGE LIU: I think Madam Registrar will do her best to

3 accommodate your request, subject to the protective measures. Is that

4 okay?

5 Yes, Mr. Bos.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

7 MR. BOS:

8 Q. Thank you, Witness NN. Now, do you recall on that same morning,

9 Witness NN, on the 15th of April, that there was a woman that -- who was

10 in labour and this was the wife after man named Suco Bradaric and that

11 somebody had to find the nurse to assist that woman in her labour? The

12 name of the nurse was nurse Slavica? Do you recall that?

13 A. No. I know that -- of a nurse whose name was Slavica in Doljani.

14 Q. But you don't recall that on that day somebody had to look for

15 that nurse because the wife of a man named Suco Bradaric was in labour?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Now, let's talk about when you went to that checkpoint. Is it

18 correct that the name of that checkpoint is the Bokulja checkpoint?

19 A. The name is Bokulja.

20 Q. Sorry for the pronunciation. Bokulja. Witness, how long did that

21 checkpoint already exist?

22 A. In that form, it was put up on that same day, on that very

23 morning.

24 Q. What do you mean in that form? I mean, did it exist in another

25 form? What was the difference?

Page 12917

1 A. From time to time, while convoys were passing through, the convoys

2 of refugees, there were checkpoints put up by the police. The army and

3 the HVO. And this is where checks were done from time to time.

4 Q. Is it correct, Witness NN, that this Bokulja checkpoint was about

5 200 metres away from the headquarters of the ABiH in Jablanica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And, sir, isn't it also correct that this Bokulja checkpoint was

8 attacked before by the HVO on the 19th of September, 1992?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is that not correct or you would just not remember it?

11 A. It is not correct, because we never attacked anybody in Jablanica.

12 Q. Witness, do you know that the day before, on the 14th of April,

13 that the village of Ostrozac was attacked by the HVO?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Well, sir, I put it to you that the HVO did attack that village on

16 the day before and actually successfully took over the village of Ostrozac

17 and if the witness can be shown Exhibit P2 once again? We can zoom in a

18 little bit on the municipality of Jablanica. Witness NN, could you

19 indicate with the pointer where the village of Ostrozac is?

20 A. [indicates]

21 Q. Isn't it correct, sir, that this village is right on the road to

22 Konjic and that in that sense it's a very strategic position and that if

23 you would take over that village, that you would cut the road from Konjic

24 to Jablanica with the result that the ABiH, if it would need any forces

25 from Konjic, that these forces were Konjic would not be able to reach

Page 12918

1 Jablanica?

2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, you are discussing military issues. I am not well

3 informed about those, nor was I -- nor did I have anything to do with

4 that. I was a member of the civilian segment of the HVO, so I cannot

5 discuss military issues.

6 Q. Well, Witness NN, the points I'm trying to make is this: The fact

7 that you were not let through at the Bokulja checkpoint, could that not

8 have been the reason that the ABiH was afraid for an imminent attack on

9 Jablanica because the village of Ostrozac was taken the day before and

10 that they were actually afraid for an attack by the Croats, and that was

11 the reason why they didn't let you through in Jablanica on the 15th of

12 April?

13 A. I don't know anything about that concern.

14 Q. Well, let's move on, on that same day, the 15th of April. You

15 testified that you -- that there were some negotiations with ABiH

16 representatives on that day; is that correct?

17 A. No, not representatives, but our man who was in Jablanica, Mirko

18 Zelenika, who was not a member of the military part of the HVO but he went

19 to the military command of the army to warn about the things that had been

20 done, that a blockade had been thrown. As for the negotiations at a

21 military level, it was not possible because our military representatives

22 were not in Jablanica.

23 Q. But, sir, didn't you testify that you spoke to a man named

24 Zalih Sihirlic and Mr. Salih Jusic on that day?

25 A. They arrived in Doljani on the 16th to talk things over in our

Page 12919

1 command.

2 Q. So, sir, they arrived, was it at their initiative that these talks

3 took place? Did they take the initiative to come to Doljani and talk

4 about the situation?

5 A. The initiative of -- was on our part, Mr. Mirko Zelenika went to

6 the army command, asked for the blockade to be lifted and for something

7 to be done in that part. And on his request, on Mirko Zelenika's request,

8 it is probably that these gentlemen came to Doljani.

9 Q. Were there any international observers present for these talks as

10 well?

11 A. I can't remember that.

12 Q. Witness, is it correct that the Spanish Battalion had a quarter in

13 Jablanica at that time?

14 A. There was an UNPROFOR base in Jablanica.

15 Q. And this was -- this UNPROFOR base was manned by the Spanish

16 Battalion; is that correct?

17 A. I can't remember who was it at the time because they changed.

18 Q. Did the UNPROFOR initiate any negotiations after the conflict had

19 started on the 15th of April, in the days following that -- following the

20 15th of April?

21 A. I don't know.

22 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P325?

23 Q. Now, Witness NN, this is an UNPROFOR, a Spanish Battalion report,

24 and I would like you to look at page number 5 of this report, which

25 discusses the situation in Jablanica. It has -- it's headed "Jablanica."

Page 12920

1 Can you see that? It's on page 4 of the B/C/S version. I think you have

2 it in front of you. Now, Witness NN, I'd like you to read -- maybe it's

3 easier if I read it out to you, which it starts at the on the B/C/S

4 version at the bottom paragraph, and it reads as follows: "According to

5 the intelligence received at 2113 OOB, April, 1993," which will probably

6 be 28 April, "From HVO sources the offensive launched against Slatina and

7 Doljani aims to push on through to Jablanica. The offensive is directed

8 by a person of substantial political, economic and military influence.

9 Someone who is tired of signatures and political treaties. Hence he has

10 no wish to up hold the ceasefire agreement struck between the Armija and

11 the HVO. This person is known as Tuta and has chosen two collaborators he

12 had with him in the "Operation Bura," namely Ivan Andabak and brigadier

13 Lasic." Witness, what would be your comment on this paragraph?

14 A. I simply don't know what was going on in Slatina. I did not have

15 any contacts with them, and as for the break through towards Jablanica,

16 what this implies, I don't know. This was out of the question. Because

17 we were in a defence position. We defended ourselves. And as far as I

18 know, the commander of the entire operation was the commander of the

19 southeast zone, i.e. the Main Staff, because there were several units

20 involved. Therefore, to my mind, this does not reflect the truth.

21 Q. Witness, this paragraph also talks about a ceasefire agreement

22 struck between the Armija and the HVO. Do you know anything about this

23 ceasefire agreement?

24 A. No.

25 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P138.2, please?

Page 12921

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I would

4 just like to draw the Chamber's attention to something that has been

5 happening on a number of occasions. The original of the text which will

6 be either Spanish or it is indeed on the original, the names that I can

7 read here are "Andavak," with a "V," and in the translation, it reads

8 "Andabak," with a "B."

9 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, we know that. You've made this point

10 every time the document comes out, in English it's Andabak with a V. We

11 know that you've made your point. We haven't forgotten it.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Sorry, excuse me. Your Honour, I am

13 insisting on this thing. This is not the way how translations can be

14 done. Translators are not here to interpret or to imply what it says.

15 They have to copy the names for what they are. I am waiting to say

16 something about yesterday's testimony. The interpreters are not here to

17 interpret, and think how what somebody's name is. They have to interpret

18 what they hear correctly.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe this is not the first time

20 you blame the interpreters for the mistranslation. I certainly will

21 convey your objections to the interpretation section and ask them to check

22 it once again.

23 Well, Mr. Bos, you may proceed.

24 MR. BOS:

25 Q. Witness, before you you have Exhibit 318.2, we will keep this

Page 12922

1 document under seal because your name appears on it, but if you read the

2 exhibit, and I won't read it out loud, it says that you, together with

3 Stipe Pole and Ivan Rogic are to attend negotiations and that you will be

4 taken -- well, I'll read out some of it, "They should come to the

5 collapsed part of the road at around 10.00 where they will be taken over

6 by the UNPROFOR. Negotiations will take place in Jablanica with an HVO

7 representatives from Mostar." Witness, and this is signed by the

8 operative zone officer, Mr. Bozo Raguz. Witness, do you recall this

9 message?

10 A. I see this message for the first time now and I'm not surprised to

11 see my name here, the reason is that I was the representative of the

12 civilian authorities in Jablanica municipality, and therefore, they

13 probably assumed that I had some influence, because I -- my job in -- I

14 perform my duties in Jablanica municipality well, together with all the

15 others. So people from the operation zone assumed that I should be there,

16 and that in that way, some things would be negotiated smoothly.

17 Q. You're saying that you didn't go to those negotiations which are

18 mentioned here in this document?

19 A. No, no.

20 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] The French booth is saying that the

21 second witness's microphone be switched on.

22 MR. BOS: Maybe you could also take -- bring Exhibit P318.1.

23 Q. Now, witness, this is an electronic message of the same date, the

24 20th of April 1993 it has for Mico, Slavko and Tuta, European observers

25 and the Spanish Battalion departed in the direction of Jablanica, signed

Page 12923

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 12924

1 by Stanko Maric." Witness, first of all, would you know who Mico Slavko

2 and Tuta are?

3 A. I know Mr. Tuta. Mico, I assume that this is the commander of the

4 operation zone, Mr. Miljenko Lasic, and Slavko, I don't know.

5 Q. Could Slavko be Mr. Slavko Puljic, the deputy commander of the --

6 A. I don't know I don't know.

7 Q. Could the information that the Spanish Battalion is departing in

8 the direction of Jablanica, could it have anything to do with the message

9 that I showed you earlier that negotiations were being held in Jablanica?

10 A. It is possible.

11 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit P8.8?

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, just

13 briefly, I would like to find out, I waited for the Prosecutor to finish

14 the examination, documents P13.1 and P318.2, what is the source? These

15 are new documents. The source here is ICTY witness. I would like to find

16 out from the Prosecutor which case was it in which these exhibits were

17 admitted in evidence, what witness was that, in which case? We can go to

18 private session. I didn't -- I wasn't aware that somebody was already

19 tried for Sovici before this Tribunal.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos? Could you please shed some light on

21 this point? If you need the private session, we will simply go to the

22 private session.

23 MR. BOS: Your Honours, to be honest I'm not really sure why it

24 says ICTY witness. If I could come back to this question maybe after the

25 break, because I would have to find out, if that's okay.

Page 12925

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the record,

3 the original in Croatian has nothing, but the wording, the text, no

4 addressee, no date, no signature, no stamp, just the text, send --

5 whatever it says, the Spanish Battalion has been sent for negotiations and

6 the signatures Stanko Maric, that is all, in the Croatian original,

7 nothing else.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. Witness, a photograph has been put on the overhead projector, and

11 I would like to ask you, do you recognise the building which is depicted

12 on this photograph?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. What is it?

15 A. The church, the priest's residence, and the command of the

16 battalion. The village of Sarancevici and further down the village of

17 Basici, Stupari is up in the hills over here. Over here the village of

18 Orlovac.

19 Q. Now you've pointed at this house which you've called the HVO

20 headquarters. Was this the house which was also referred to as the fish

21 farm? Or did it used to be a fish farm?

22 A. You can see the ponds in front of the building.

23 Q. Now, when was it that the -- you've testified that the civil

24 component of the HVO moved into this headquarters sometime in April. When

25 was it in April that you moved into these headquarters?

Page 12926

1 A. When we could no longer go to Jablanica, then we found some

2 accommodation in the priest's residence in the basement, and in part also

3 we accommodated the Defence office here. That is the headquarters.

4 Q. And was the 3rd Mijat Tomic Battalion, had they had their

5 headquarters here as well?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Sir, you've said that -- I don't think you've answered my question

8 yet. When was it that you moved from Jablanica to Doljani?

9 A. When we could no longer go, after the 15th of April, when we could

10 not get in, we found some shelter here. We simply needed to have some

11 premises, some offices, to look after the interests of our civilians.

12 Q. But isn't it correct that you moved already earlier, around early

13 April, not only the civil component but also other HVO troops moved to

14 Doljani in early April, 1993?

15 A. On the 1st of April, the battalion command moved to Doljani, and

16 we, the civilian component, we continued going to Jablanica for work

17 regularly.

18 Q. If you said the battalion command moved, how many officers, how

19 many bodies actually moved to Doljani?

20 A. I can't say that. I wasn't really fully abreast of the

21 organisation of the battalion or its command.

22 Q. Would you know even an approximate number? Are we talking about

23 dozens or are we talking about just a few men or ...

24 A. Our command had never more than ten people.

25 Q. Now, Witness, was this the place, this HVO headquarters, where you

Page 12927

1 actually saw Mr. Tuta on the 19th of April, 1993?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Alojz Rados?

4 A. I do, yes, I met him.

5 Q. Who is he?

6 A. I don't know anything much about Mr. Alojz Rados in our villages,

7 Sovici, Doljani and Jablanica. All Rados's are Muslims and the first time

8 I heard about him was in Jablanica, that was the first time I heard that

9 there was Rados, that he had come from the municipality of Varos, from

10 Central Bosnia, and joined -- that he had joined a unit of the 3rd

11 Battalion of Mijat Tomic. I did not have any particular contact with him

12 because I simply didn't know him that well.

13 Q. Do you know what his function was in the Mijat Tomic Battalion?

14 A. I don't think he had any function in the Mijat Tomic Battalion.

15 Q. Is it correct that he also worked at the headquarters in Doljani

16 where you were also stationed in April?

17 A. I used to see him, but it was more often when -- in that town,

18 where Mr. Miroslav Juric who headed the Catholic charities society, the

19 two of them were more committed to humanitarian work.

20 Q. Now, Witness, in your position, you -- I presume you often had

21 meetings. Do you recall that this Mr. Rados ever took minutes of the

22 meetings?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Witness, do you know that Mr. Rados kept a diary?

25 A. I've heard about a diary from our prisoners in Jablanica. Later

Page 12928

1 on, when they came out, they stayed that on the local cable television,

2 they had read some diary written by Mr. Alojz Rados. I did not have an

3 opportunity to see it personally.

4 Q. You're saying that prisoners in Jablanica talked -- what did they

5 say about it? What was their comments about the fact that this diary was

6 written?

7 A. Well, simply I wasn't interested to know what was in it but all

8 sorts were being written down and at the same time we had the opportunity

9 to listen to daily media campaigns launched by the press service of the

10 4th Corps of the Army of BH, so that I wasn't really particularly eager to

11 know what was in this diary and I never paid any particular attention to

12 it, because right from the start, I accepted that it was just one of a

13 number of media campaigns.

14 MR. BOS: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 928/3?

15 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to show you a segment from this diary

16 because your name has been referred to.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

19 It is a procedural matter, and I believe I am entitled to an objection to

20 the further examination of the Prosecution about this diary. That is Rule

21 95 says that the evidence obtained by methods which -- that such rules are

22 not accepted, that rules as a result are not acceptable. Will also not be

23 admissible. We also have another ruling in a different case. The

24 question is what will happen to this part of the transcript, of the

25 record, which is based on the cross-examination about this diary which is

Page 12929

1 an exhibit obtained unlawfully and moreover it has not been authenticated

2 because it has not -- because that was not done by its author? Thank you

3 very much.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, Mr. Krsnik?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I apologise

6 for taking too much of your time because I have a feeling that we, the

7 counsel for the Defence, stand up very often in performance of our duty

8 but do so to no avail, but I don't know what else, if the Prosecutor

9 himself doesn't know where he got this diary from, nor could he explain

10 the source to the Court. Your Honours, I shall be very pragmatic and say,

11 couldn't the Defence write an identical diary or acquire it, put a Muslim

12 name on it and say that this is a diary which comes from Sovici and then

13 examine the witnesses? I am asking the Honourable Court not to allow any

14 further examination based on this diary.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that we have come across this issue

16 before. I don't think we have to deal with it whenever we are using this

17 diary in the future. I think during the last time we had considerable

18 debate on this issue, and the Trial Chamber even invited both parties to

19 submit their views concerning the interpretations of the BiH government.

20 This Trial Chamber is seized of this motion of admission of those

21 evidence, and we haven't decided yet on this very issue. But we allowed

22 the Prosecution to use this document because we found no suggestions that

23 this document obtained through illegal way, and it does not hurt the

24 integrity of this trial.

25 So Mr. Bos, you may proceed with your questions.

Page 12930

1 MR. BOS: Thank you, Your Honour. May I just add? This witness

2 has been asked questions about the diary, to confirm the authenticity of

3 the diary. And that's why I actually put the diary to him.

4 JUDGE LIU: I have already noted that, Mr. Bos.

5 MR. BOS:

6 Q. Now, Witness, could you have a look at -- I'm going to put to you

7 two segments from this diary. You could look at the B/C/S version page

8 number 13 and the English version page number 65 on the bottom And I'll

9 read it out to you, and I won't mention your name again. English version

10 starting from the bottom. "Then a signals man came in. He told to us get

11 the doctor urgently because the wife of somebody called Suco Bradaric in

12 signals was in labour. [redacted] and I went out to look for the doctor

13 and wake him up. But he sent us to look for nurse Slavica. Because

14 he was not a gynecologist and knew nothing about the deliveries." Then

15 your name is mentioned. You and the doctor managed to find Slavica before

16 we did and a new life a son was born, one day after the start of the

17 war."

18 Witness, this was on the 15th of April. Do you recall this?

19 A. I do not recall this because, as I said, I went to Jablanica, and

20 Mr. Prosecutor, [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 MR. BOS: I think we need a redaction, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so.

25 MR. BOS:

Page 12931

1 Q. Please try to refrain from mentioning your name, Witness.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes?

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, you

4 also read out the name. So please don't do it again, from the diary.

5 MR. BOS: No, I don't think so.

6 JUDGE LIU: He said, "Your name is mentioned, you and the doctor

7 managed to find."

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, no, no. He said -- mentioned the

9 name, the first name, not the last name.

10 JUDGE LIU: We'll try to redact whatever seems suspicious.

11 MR. BOS:

12 Q. Very well, Witness. I understand your response. You may be

13 rights. There could be others. Could we then move on to --

14 MR. BOS: One moment, Your Honour.

15 [Prosecution counsel confer]

16 JUDGE CLARK: May I ask a question, Mr. Bos, just while we are on

17 the diary? Mr. Witness, you are somewhat acquainted with the author of

18 the diary, I believe. You may not know him well but you know who he

19 was.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the early days of

21 our organisation in Jablanica, I was the first time when I heard of

22 Mr. Alojz Rados's name as a Croat from Varos. I did not know him before

23 that, nor did I come to know him particularly well after that.

24 JUDGE CLARK: I accept that, sir, but all I wanted to know was

25 did -- do you know or did you know what he did in civilian life, what his

Page 12932

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Page 12933

1 occupation was?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, he was employed by

3 a hydro power plant but what he did, I don't know.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. I was looking at the diary last night

5 and I noticed that there are a lot of minute measurements recorded and it

6 struck me that it was a rise and fall in water levels, so that explains

7 it. You think that he worked for the hydro electric plant. Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. Witness, I'm going to read out one more quote to you from this

11 diary and maybe just out of abundance of caution we could go into

12 private session?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12934

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 MR. BOS:

10 Q. Just one more topic. For that I need Exhibit P333.1. Witness,

11 while this exhibit is being put to you, may I ask you, do you know Marko

12 Rozic?

13 A. I do. He's a guy who comes from the village of Sovici. Before

14 the war he worked for Unis and that was my company too. At present, he is

15 with Elektroprivreda in Mostar.

16 Q. And at the time of the conflict, was Mr. Rozic, was he the deputy

17 of the -- was he the head of the HVO Defence department in Jablanica?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Now, Witness, you've testified in your examination-in-chief that

20 both the mosques were destroyed in Sovici and Doljani and that you regret

21 that, and that also Muslim houses were torched, that ABiH prisoners were

22 taken to Ljubuski. That is correct, isn't it?

23 A. It is.

24 Q. Now, Witness, could you read this report and say if you actually

25 agree with what's written here in the report?

Page 12935

1 A. I was not aware of this report, and I disagree with its text.

2 Q. Well, what would you disagree with? The text talks about the fact

3 that 94 military recruits from sent to Ljubuski. Would you disagree with

4 that?

5 A. What was their number, I don't know, whether this is the accurate

6 number or not, I don't know. I'm not objecting to that. However, I am

7 objecting to the fact that the civilians were brought together, were

8 rounded in and together. My objection is to the place where it says that

9 all Muslim houses had been set on fire, which is not true. Not even after

10 the war, when everything stopped, not all of them were torched, and about

11 the order from some commander, I really am not aware that all this was

12 done pursuant to some order.

13 Q. You said that not all Muslim houses were torched. Approximately

14 how many Muslim houses were torched?

15 A. At that time, perhaps -- no, I'm saying of course roughly.

16 Perhaps half of them. 50 per cent. At the time when this report was

17 made. I say it was very rough guess. I cannot be more specific than

18 that.

19 Q. When you say 50 per cent, what would be the number of houses,

20 then?

21 A. I wouldn't know that.

22 Q. Very well.

23 MR. BOS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any re-examination? Mr. Krsnik?

25 Re-examined by Mr. Krsnik:

Page 12936

1 Q. [Interpretation] Only one. Witness will you please look at this

2 so-called report once again? Are you familiar with Mr. Rozic's

3 signature?

4 A. Counsel, there is no signature here on this text, on the text that

5 I have.

6 Q. Then why aren't you given the original in the Croatian, if we are

7 talking about the same exhibit, P333? Is this P333? Then you obviously

8 don't have it. Could the registry provide the witness with the Croatian

9 original?

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that re-examination should

11 be within the scope of the cross-examination. The document P333 was not

12 used in the cross-examination, so Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. BOS: Your Honour, if I could clarify something, P333 and

14 P33.1 are the same document we submitted both of them but they come from

15 different sources but they are identical.

16 JUDGE LIU: I see. Is it necessary to submit the same document

17 twice?

18 MR. BOS: Yes, Your Honour, just in order to show the

19 authentication of the document we thought it better to submit both

20 documents.

21 JUDGE LIU: But one -- it seems to me that one document has the

22 signature on it and the other is a kind of fax or telex type document.

23 MR. BOS: That's why we submitted both. The other reason is that

24 one version of the B/C/S is less readable than the others. That's why we

25 submitted both.

Page 12937

1 JUDGE LIU: I see. In this case, Mr. Krsnik, you may use the

2 document P333.

3 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, and my

4 thanks in particular go to Mr. Bos -- to my learned friend, to Mr. Bos,

5 and his integrity, his honesty.

6 Q. Witness, will you now look at this document which is before you?

7 My question was whether you were familiar with Mr. Rozic's signature?

8 A. Yes, I am.

9 Q. Can you tell us if this is his signature?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you give an expert opinion and confirm that this is not

12 Mr. Rozic's signature? Thank you?

13 A. Yes, I could.

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, I have no further

15 questions. He is not an expert, that is true, and that is why we shall

16 submit the signature for an expert analysis and then an expert will tell

17 us that this is a forged signature. The witness only said that he knew

18 Mr. Rozic's signature and that this signature here was not his. You

19 don't have to object any more. I do not have any further questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Bos? Yes, Mr. Scott?

21 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I'm going to object on a procedural

22 point we covered this ground many times now. The Chamber has repeatedly

23 admonished counsel not to have these discussions in front of the witness.

24 The counsel has just said in front of a witness on a matter that is been

25 the subject of cross-examination and direct examination, and given

Page 12938

1 substantive information and made allegations of forgery, unsupported,

2 completely unsupported in front of the witness. Now, the Chamber bore has

3 repeatedly cautioned and admonished Mr. Krsnik on this. We object to it

4 strenuously and we are going to continue to do so and if it happens we're

5 going to ask that the witness be excused every time we get into a

6 discussion along these lines, have the witness excused so these

7 discussions will not take place in front of the witness. We object very

8 strongly to this, Mr. President, and you know it's not the first time it's

9 been raised and we raised it repeatedly.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I admit that I am not

11 really at home with the Anglo-Saxon procedure. So please forgive me for

12 what I will say, but I do not think that even in the Anglo-Saxon system a

13 trial is a theatre. It is a live hearing and it is the pursuit of truth.

14 Why is it wrong to ask the witness if, "Do you know somebody's signature?"

15 And you say yes and so do you think it is his signature and he says no?

16 What is curious about that and what is the Defence doing that is wrong?

17 These are the documents that were used by the other party. And Your

18 Honours, I'm saying this for yet another reason and that is that the

19 Prosecutor had the documents about the order about the transfer of

20 civilians, that he disclosed to us personally and he knows also the other

21 side of the Sovici events and still continues to insist on something

22 completely different, and therefore the Defence must produce all the

23 evidence and offer it on a platter to them and to you Your Honours for all

24 the that they had filed to do.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, you asked the witness a question and

Page 12939

1 the witness answered that question, he answered no. You have to -- you

2 have the full right to raise this issue concerning the authenticity of a

3 document when we are admitting it into the evidence. And you also have

4 the opportunity to submit any written objections at a later stage, to help

5 the Trial Chamber to arrive at the correct decisions on this issue. So I

6 think you have finished your re-examination. So we have to move on. We

7 tried to finish the testimony of this witness during this sitting.

8 Yes, any questions from Judges?

9 Well, it seems that we have no questions to this witness.

10 Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your evidence.

11 When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will take you out of the room.

12 We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you for giving me

14 the opportunity to testify and I kindly ask you to do establish the truth

15 about the sufferings of Croats in Jablanica municipality. Thank you very

16 much.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

19 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. These are the ones

21 that I have used, these are P362 and P360. Then orders by General Milivoj

22 Petkovic about the evacuation of the population from Jablanica on the 5th

23 of May. These are the -- this is the order that the Prosecution had a

24 long time ago, P360 and P362 are the exhibits.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well --

Page 12940

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Then I would also tender D1/392 to

2 397.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Bos?

4 MR. BOS: Your Honours, the Prosecution does not have any

5 objections to P360 and P362, because --

6 JUDGE LIU: Of course, that's your exhibits.

7 MR. BOS: As to the Defence exhibits, the witness was shown these

8 documents and he could hardly say anything about the documents. He could

9 simply say, well, yeah, this was sort of the situation as it was. I don't

10 think that is sufficient to admit these exhibits and we can put this in

11 writing if you wish but we would object to those.

12 JUDGE LIU: On your side how many documents are you going to

13 tender at this stage?

14 MR. BOS: Your Honours, we would tender Exhibit P318.1, and

15 P318.2, and Exhibit P-- yes, those are the two.

16 JUDGE LIU: Just two documents. Are there any objections,

17 Mr. Krsnik?

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I do have

19 objections. In the same way that my learned friend objected to my -- to

20 me, from the very beginning of this trial, the Prosecution has been

21 showing these written documents and in 90 per cent of the cases, the

22 witnesses didn't know anything about these documents and still, the

23 Prosecution wanted them to be admitted. And this gentleman said that the

24 events described in the documents, he was familiar with. So Your Honours,

25 as far as the Exhibit 318.1 is concerned and 318.2, we have established

Page 12941

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 12942

1 that as far as 318.1 is concerned, that the document and the signature on

2 the document -- I apologise. 318.1, 318.2, these are the documents that

3 I'm talking about. We don't have the authors of these documents, the

4 addressees, why they were sent, there is no signature, there is no stamp,

5 and especially, 318.2, actually the two are identical. We don't know who

6 the addressee is, who wrote them, they do have a date but still, I believe

7 that such documents cannot be admitted.

8 JUDGE LIU: You have already made that objection during the

9 cross-examination, Mr. Krsnik. And we will take into consideration the

10 objections of both parties, and we will render our decisions on the

11 admission of these documents at a later stage.

12 Could we -- are there any protective measures concerning the next

13 witness, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours, as previously, a

15 pseudonym and face distortion.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? I guess no. So your

17 request is granted. And we will make a break here and after the break, we

18 will hear the next witness.

19 Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I forgot

21 to tender the photo that the witness was looking at, and put an arrow on

22 it. That's Exhibit -- can the Madam Registrar help me with the number.

23 THE REGISTRAR: D1/100.

24 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, so that is the exhibit

25 that I would like to tender.

Page 12943

1 JUDGE LIU: I don't think there any objection.

2 MR. BOS: No objection, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: It is admitted into evidence. So we'll resume at 20

4 minutes to 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.10 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 10.41 a.m.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

8 MR. MEEK: Mr. President?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Meek.

10 MR. MEEK: While they are getting the witness I would just like to

11 see if you verified that Defence counsel have a meeting at 12.30 today,

12 1.30, I'm sorry.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will stop earlier, 20 minutes earlier. Yes,

14 Mr. Stringer?

15 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, we don't -- I'm quite confident that

16 we never received a witness summary for the next witness so I think I've

17 got a decent idea of what he's going to say but if we could get an idea of

18 the length of time that's anticipated for his direct examination, that

19 would be helpful.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik? Would you please brief us on that

21 point?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honours. My learned

23 friend Stringer asked me yesterday when I got home yesterday afternoon, I

24 spoke to my assistant, Mrs. Pinter, and she answered me that she had sent

25 these -- this summary a long time ago. She also promised she would call

Page 12944

1 Mr. Stringer, whether she did or not, he can tell us. She was supposed to

2 do that yesterday afternoon. So the summary -- so the summary must have

3 been received by Mr. Stringer. I'm 100 per cent sure of that. And as for

4 the length of my examination, I can only say this depends on the witness.

5 This is our joint witness. Both for Mr. Martinovic as well as for

6 Mr. Naletilic. So Mr. Seric is also going to examine the witness. I can

7 only assume that it will take up to an hour altogether.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I think we have to proceed since we have

9 the witness waiting outside at this stage. Yes.

10 [The witness entered court]

11 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, yes, I can.

13 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

14 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 WITNESS: WITNESS NO

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, you may proceed.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Examined by Mr. Krsnik:

24 Q. Witness, this is the way to do it so you don't lose your

25 headphones. Is that okay now?

Page 12945

1 A. Okay.

2 Q. Witness, the most important thing in this courtroom is that our --

3 my question and your answer do not overlap. Please look at the screen in

4 front of you. You're going to see the moving dot. Make sure that you

5 don't speak too slow or too fast. When the dot stops, -- now it has

6 stopped, then it would be best for you to start giving your answer. We

7 have two interpretations and it is very important that everything you say

8 is entered in the transcript. Is that agreed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you're going to be given a piece of paper, don't say your

11 name. You have protective measures. If this is your name, just say yes.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Let's get down to business, just briefly, without saying your

14 first name and your last name, slowly, can you tell us when you were born,

15 where, just briefly?

16 A. I was born on 14 December, 1970 in Mostar. I finished elementary

17 and secondary school in Siroki Brijeg. I am married and I have three

18 children.

19 Q. Witness, I'm going to focus on 1993, and to be more specific on

20 one period only. That is the period between May, 1993 and the end of

21 1993. My first question to you is as follows: Which duty did you

22 discharge, if you had any duties, throughout 1993? Slowly, please. Now

23 it has stopped.

24 A. In 1993, I was the commander of the first active battalion of the

25 military police. Then I was the commander of one of the sectors in the

Page 12946

1 city of Mostar.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Can we please move to private

3 session, Your Honours?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

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21 [redacted]

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24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12947

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [Open session]

9 JUDGE LIU: We are now in open session. Witness, you may answer

10 that question.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you,

13 Mr. Stringer for this warning.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the night between the 8th and

15 9th May I spent the night in the family house in Siroki Brijeg and in

16 the early morning hours of the 9th of May, I was woken up by my duty

17 operations officer from the command of the 1st Battalion and he informed

18 me that the units of the BH Army had attacked the HVO units in the city of

19 Mostar. I got into my private car and immediately went to my command in

20 Ljubuski, where I organised a meeting with my subordinate officers,

21 already by then we had received an order to -- for me to take my unit to

22 the city of Mostar and to help the HVO units which were in the city of

23 Mostar at the time. And to help them in their fighting the HB army. I

24 arrived in Mostar. I can't remember exactly when, but I believe it was in

25 the early afternoon hours. I believe it was around 1300 hours. In

Page 12948

1 Mostar, at the time, there was fierce fighting between the HVO and the

2 units of the BH Army. The HV units were not organised. They tried to put

3 up a defence against the BH Army units. I remember that later that

4 afternoon, the situation was stabilised. The front line was stabilised

5 and that the fighting started only on the 10th of May in the afternoon,

6 and that it was then that the front line was established in the city of

7 Mostar along the Bulevar, along the -- along Santic street, up to the Ero

8 Hotel. Then on the right bank of the Neretva River.

9 Q. Witness I'm reading the transcript and I can tell you that we now

10 have HV, that HV units were not organised?

11 A. I meant HVO.

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 Q. My colleague is probably going to ask you to give more details of

22 that line, but let me now ask you how old were you at the time?

23 A. I was 22 at the time.

24 Q. How come you, so young, were appointed to that position?

25 A. I was appointed because I -- I suppose I had some authority, I had

Page 12949

1 organisational capabilities. I was not appointed because somebody liked

2 me. The times were too hard to have somebody discharging that duty

3 because he was either liked or not liked by somebody else.

4 Q. Where was your command, the command of your sector?

5 A. The command of the military police at the time was at the school

6 of mechanical engineering so my command also, at the time, when I was in

7 Mostar, the command of the 1st Battalion was this mechanical -- school of

8 mechanical engineering, and the command of the sector was also at the

9 school of mechanical engineering.

10 Q. Now that we have mentioned the school of mechanical engineering,

11 Witness, we have heard in this courtroom some testimonies involving this

12 school of mechanical engineering. My first question to you will be as

13 follows: Who -- which units were headquartered at the school of

14 mechanical engineering and who could enter the school of mechanical

15 engineering?

16 A. The unit of the military police was there, and nobody could enter

17 the school of mechanical engineering. There was security. And there was

18 a book kept by the duty operations officer, a policeman, who would record

19 everybody who entered or left school of mechanical engineering.

20 Q. Now, if I tell you that we have heard some testimonies hear saying

21 that the Convicts Battalion was abusing some prisoners at the school of

22 mechanical engineering --

23 A. At the school of mechanical engineering, there were never any

24 military prisoners, and I don't see how could anybody abuse or maltreat

25 prisoners who were not there, let alone the Convicts Battalion, which was

Page 12950

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25

Page 12951

1 not in Mostar at the time at all.

2 Q. When we are talking about this, can you tell us which units, I

3 believe that the Chamber will be interested in that, which HVO units were

4 in Mostar between the 30 June and onwards?

5 A. Your Honours, at the time, in Mostar, there were the following

6 units, there was the 2nd Brigade of the HVO, parts of the 3rd Brigade of

7 the HVO, for a while there was also the 9th Battalion of the 3rd Brigade

8 which then was pulled out of the city and throughout all this time, there

9 was the 4th Battalion of the 3rd Brigade at the time, this were no guards

10 brigades so it was just the 3rd Brigade. There was also the Vinko Skrobo

11 ATG, the Benko Penavic ATG and the military police unit.

12 Q. You said that some battalions were resubordinated from some

13 brigades. Did I understand you well? Can you explain that for the

14 Chamber? If somebody -- if somebody battalion is resubordinated from a

15 brigade and it arrives in the city of Mostar, who is their commander?

16 A. All the units on the front line were commanded by me personally.

17 Q. For example, I don't know whether this happened or not, just to

18 illustrate, let's say that an ATG arrived from Sarajevo or Tomislavgrad,

19 and they arrived to your front line. Who would be their commander?

20 A. I've already answered you, counsel. I would be their commander,

21 as the commander of the defence sector in the city.

22 Q. Just briefly, can you tell us, because my learned friends are

23 going to ask you about that, can you give me the general outlines of the

24 areas of responsibility of these units that you have just mentioned and

25 who has established these areas of responsibility?

Page 12952

1 A. What period do you ever in mind.

2 Q. The 30th of June onwards?

3 A. In the city of Mostar at the time the 2nd Brigade of the HVO

4 comprised the area from the school of engineering in Santiceva street

5 north all the way up to Bijelo Polje. Then parts of the military police,

6 together with the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade of the HVO were in

7 Santiceva street, around the building of the former HIT department store

8 and the Glas bank. That was the area that belonged to the civilian

9 police. Then the grammar school southwards, the medical centre.

10 Q. I just asked you for the general outlines. I believe that my

11 colleagues are going to go into details on that. So you said from Bijelo

12 Polje to --

13 A. Yes, from Bijelo Polje south to Santiceva street. That was the

14 2nd Brigade of the HVO.

15 Q. And then briefly, there were also units from the Ero Hotel down to

16 south to Hum Hill. These were the mixed units, parts of the 3rd Brigade.

17 HVO ATG units, parts of the military police and parts of the civilian

18 police.

19 Q. Thank you. But you didn't tell me who defined the areas of

20 responsibility?

21 A. These areas of responsibility were defined by the operative zone

22 of Southeast Herzegovina.

23 Q. I see. Now, just in principle, because we do not want to take too

24 much time, who commanded Vinko Skrobo ATG and Benko Penavic ATG in the

25 city of Mostar and what does ATG mean? Will you tell the Honourable

Page 12953

1 Court?

2 A. Vinko Penavic -- Benko Penvic and Vinko Skrobo ATG and all the

3 others units that were in the city of Mostar at the time were under my

4 command.

5 Q. Right but individually who was the commander of Benko Penavic and

6 Vinko Skrobo and what would ATG mean?

7 A. Vinko Skrobo's commander was Mr. Martinovic and Benko Penavic's

8 commander, I know that several commanders were there, but one of them was

9 Mr. Mario Milicevic.

10 Q. And ATG means?

11 A. I think it means the anti-terrorist unit, and I believe that these

12 groups, that is units, which were called that, were named that modeled on

13 one of the special NATO units.

14 Q. You mean to get to become a more important to them or were they

15 really special units, if I puts it that way?

16 A. Well, a little bit to add some more weight to their importance but

17 also there were somewhat more brave than other units.

18 Q. And they themselves called them ATG. Nobody else gave them

19 that name?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. When you said that you were the commander of all the units on the

22 fronts line

23 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I think

24 that perhaps we should go into private session while we are discussing

25 these matters.

Page 12954

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go to the private session, please.

2 [Private session]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 12955

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

12 Q. And tell me, when you met him, at that time, did Mr. Mladen

13 Naletilic hold any office?

14 A. I met him as a man who had worked in Germany for a long time and

15 who had returned to his native town.

16 Q. And later on, in 1992, did he join the defence or do you know

17 anything else? I mean of your personal knowledge.

18 A. What I know is that in 1992, Mr. Naletilic was one of the

19 organisers of the defence in Siroki Brijeg, together with Mr. Cavar,

20 Mr. Mikulic, and others who were in the Siroki Brijeg HVO at the time, and

21 that he made a large contribution to the organisation of this defence. I

22 also know that the later stage, he contributed a great deal to the

23 liberation of the city of Mostar.

24 Q. I see. Tell me, please, did Mr. Naletilic -- with you, together

25 with you, plan any operation in Mostar in 1993, and in particular, in

Page 12956

1 September, 1993?

2 A. No. He did not. Mr. Naletilic did not plan any operation in

3 Mostar with me at any time in 1993. As far as I know, Mr. Mladen

4 Naletilic at that time was doing something, held some office, in the

5 Siroki Brijeg municipal hall.

6 Q. Tell me, of these ATGs, for instance, and these units, and you,

7 was there somebody else? Was there another tier in the chain of command?

8 A. No, nothing, the commanders of these units were directly

9 accountable to me.

10 Q. And you were under the command of?

11 A. And I was under the command of the commander of the operative zone

12 or the Chief of the Main Staff.

13 Q. And is there anyone else in between?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you see Mr. Mladen Naletilic attend any meeting in the command

16 of the operative zone or the command of the city defence?

17 A. No, never. I never saw him at any meeting. I do not see why

18 would Mr. Naletilic attend those meetings.

19 Q. Did he have an office in the operative zone or rather the command

20 of the operative zone or the city defence?

21 A. Counsel, sir, I've already answered that, why would he have an

22 office if that office served no purpose? Of course he didn't have an

23 office.

24 Q. Do you know who had the authority over the military investigative

25 prison at the Heliodrom?

Page 12957

1 A. I know that the military investigative prison at the Heliodrom was

2 guarded by the military police, but I really do not remember who had the

3 authority. I assume it was one of the ministries. Could be the Ministry

4 of Justice or the Ministry of Defence but I really do not know under whose

5 jurisdiction it was.

6 Q. Tell me, did any unit, and that includes the Convicts Battalion,

7 could arrest somebody or capture somebody and take him directly to the

8 Heliodrom?

9 A. All units, if they captured or took in some military prisoners,

10 all the prisoners of war would be turned over to the military police.

11 Q. Tell me, please, do you know something about the Rastani front

12 line, Rastani front line?

13 A. Yes. I do.

14 Q. Tell me, is Rastani an integral part of the Mostar defence?

15 A. For a while, it was an integral part of the defence of the city

16 of Mostar, but from what I can remember, for a while, it was separated,

17 it was an independent sector. I believe it was sometime from the end of

18 August, 1993, but I do not remember precisely.

19 Q. And did this Rastani front line have its own commander?

20 A. Yes, it did.

21 Q. And did all the units -- were all the units that will be assigned

22 to that front line, be then subordinated to that commander?

23 A. Yes, of course.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer?

25 MR. STRINGER:, Mr. President, I would have objected to the last

Page 12958

1 question as leading. The witness had already answered by the time that I

2 got the interpretation, but I will object to leading questions.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, try to avoid any leading questions in

4 your future direct examination. I understand you are under time pressure.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, by all means, Your Honour, of

6 course I will do that. But I think there must have been a

7 misunderstanding because in the previous answer this witness has already

8 indicated everything about it. I only asked him to confirm that units

9 would then be subordinated to that particular commander if this

10 explanation is satisfactory. But whatever the case, I will not ask any

11 other leading questions in the future.

12 Q. Now, please, do you know a place called Djubrani?

13 A. Djubrani is a place which is about a kilometre and a half or two

14 away from Rastani as the crow flies.

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 12960

1 thing. And to protect the civilians regardless of whether they were

2 Muslims or Croats or Serbs, to protect all the citizens living in that

3 area.

4 Q. And my final question is: Have you received recently an

5 invitation to meet with the investigators of The Hague OTP and if so,

6 when?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I did get such an invitation -- such a letter from The

8 Hague OTP, and it was transmitted to me by the SNS officer. This is the

9 state security service of the Croat people which is responsible, which is

10 accountable to the member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

11 amongst the ranks of the Croat people, and I responded that I was a

12 witness for the defence and that all the questions that the OTP would want

13 to ask me, I would be at their disposal when I went as a witness for the

14 defence to The Hague, to which this officer replied that "this was my last

15 chance," which I failed to understand what did this "last chance" mean.

16 Q. And when did that happen?

17 A. It happened about a month ago.

18 Q. Did he perhaps mention who was asking for this interview, whose

19 order?

20 A. No, he did not mention any names. He only said OTP.

21 Q. And this SNS, since we are on this subject now, is it the same

22 thing as -- would it be the counterpart of the AID from amongst the ranks

23 of the Bosniak people?

24 A. Yes. It's the same like the one from the ranks of the Bosnian

25 people except that it is accountable to the member of the Presidency

Page 12961

1 representing the Croat people.

2 Q. And the AID?

3 A. Member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina representing the

4 Muslim people.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [In English] No further questions, Your Honour.

6 Thank you. [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further questions.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

8 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

9 Examined by Mr. Seric:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. NO, can you tell us who commanded the sector

11 prior to the 30th of June, 1993?

12 A. At that time, there were no any particular sectors in the city of

13 Mostar, the units at that time were under the command of the operative --

14 of the Southeast Herzegovina operative zone.

15 Q. Can you tell us something about the terms of reference of the

16 commander this sector of the defence of the city of Mostar?

17 A. Well, the terms of reference, the mandate of the commander of the

18 sector of defence of the city of Mostar were to command all the units

19 which were in the sector of the city of Mostar.

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 12962

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will redact that part. And at the same time,

7 I have to warn you that you have to slow down so that the interpreters

8 could follow you.

9 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Mr. NO, do you know when did the Vinko Skrobo ATG come into being

11 and how?

12 A. Well, I cannot give you the exact date of its establishment but I

13 believe it was sometime in mid-May, after the first major attacks of the

14 BH Army on HVO units in the city of Mostar, and I think that it was made

15 up of volunteers, those more valiant combatants, who stood out in

16 particular in the war against the Serb aggressor in 1992, because that was

17 principally how all -- basically how all the ATG units were formed.

18 Q. Can I ask the usher, please, Madam Registrar, will you -- can

19 provide, this is Prosecutor's photograph 14.5, 14.5, Prosecution's

20 exhibit, so that we can show it to the witness? We can also have it on

21 the ELMO.

22 Q. If you will take the pointer, -- could we have a clean copy,

23 please?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's just what I want to ask. I see some marks

25 on this photo. Do we have a clean copy?

Page 12963

1 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. NO, will you take the pointer?

3 A. Yes, I have.

4 Q. Will you now show the positions manned by Vinko Skrobo ATG on this

5 front line?

6 A. At that time, on the front line, the Vinko Skrobo ATG held the

7 health centre.

8 Q. Will you point at it on the ELMO itself?

9 A. That's it.

10 Q. Thank you very much.

11 A. So the health centre buildings around the health centre, and its

12 other position, so this is the contact line. And its other position was

13 where the headquarters was of the Vinko Skrobo ATG. You cannot see it on

14 this map. It is a few hundred metres, that is 500 or 600 metres away from

15 the front line.

16 Q. Can you, for the record, describe on the photograph, can you

17 describe the buildings that you pointed on the photograph?

18 A. Well, these are the buildings of the health centre and behind it

19 are some -- I do not really know what they were called at the time, this

20 couple of buildings, which are behind the health centre. And the whole

21 yard of the health centre.

22 Q. For the record, which -- what is the name of the street left of

23 the health centre?

24 A. This street to the left is Liska Street.

25 Q. And is this where the area of responsibility of the Vinko Skrobo

Page 12964

1 ATG ends?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. We won't need this photograph any more. I've finished. Thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we ask the witness to mark the areas of

6 the responsibility of the Vinko Skrobo ATG?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, thank you very much,

8 Mr. President.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [marks] I'd merely like to add that

10 the position that was held by the unit at the command post, that is where

11 the intervention group was, you cannot see it on this map. And it is

12 about 500 or 600 metres beyond it, and I believe that the name of this

13 street was Kalemova.

14 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Thank you very much for this explanation but all we were

16 interested to know was the situation on the front line and it is as you

17 pointed here, as you marked here?

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We are tendering this, we do

19 not know which number is it but you can give us the number later.

20 Now, can we have D226? Can we now have the witness shown the

21 report, Prosecutor's number is P511, the tenth binder, binder 10, 511.

22 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] Mr. Seric, the interpreters are

23 asking you to come closer to the microphone.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I thought my

25 voice carried and therefore that there would be no problem.

Page 12965

1 JUDGE DIARRA: [Interpretation] No, no. The French booth has

2 problems.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. NO can you see this report?

5 A. Yes, I can.

6 Q. Can you tell us the date?

7 A. It's the 9th of July, 1993.

8 Q. And it refers to what day, it covers what day?

9 A. The 8th of July.

10 Q. Does this report confirm, will you go through this text? Does it

11 corroborate what you said just now, which part of the front line was

12 manned by the Vinko Skrobo ATG?

13 A. Yes, it does.

14 Q. Can you tell us what was the purpose of this and other reports of

15 this kind?

16 A. Such reports were needed so that we could take stock of the

17 situation on the front line on a daily basis.

18 Q. And what other task did the Vinko Skrobo ATG have?

19 A. The Vinko Skrobo ATG's task was to prevent the breakthrough of the

20 BH Army's troops through the area of responsibility that was under -- that

21 they manned.

22 Q. How strong was the Vinko Skrobo ATG?

23 A. Well, it is difficult for me to say exactly how many men it had,

24 because there were wounded and killed soldiers every day, but I think that

25 this figure was ranged between 50 to 70 men, roughly.

Page 12966

1 Q. Can you please tell the Honourable Court how many soldiers were in

2 one shift on the front line and how many were on the reserve?

3 A. I believe that in one shift, there were about 14 to 15 men, and

4 that on the reserve, there should have been also at least as many as on

5 the front line.

6 Q. How long was the shift for, that you manned?

7 A. I think that one shift on the front line lasted for 12 hours,

8 because all the units had the same practice, and that was a 12-hour shift.

9 Q. Do you know where other soldiers were at the time? Were there any

10 barracks?

11 A. Some of them were in the headquarters, that was the intervention

12 unit, and the next shift, and there were no barracks. Other soldiers

13 would go to their own homes, they stayed at home. When they were not on

14 the front line, when they were not manning the positions, they would be

15 engaged in every day, private business. They would be with their

16 families.

17 Q. At the time, during that leisure time, could you exercise

18 effective control over them?

19 A. No. It was not possible. It was not possible to control members

20 of any one unit because they all had their private and family matters to

21 tend to.

22 Q. Mr. NO, do you know whether detainees were -- from Heliodrom were

23 brought to units, including the Vinko Skrobo ATG?

24 A. Yes. The detainees from the Heliodrom were brought to all the

25 units in the city of Mostar.

Page 12967

1 Q. Can I please ask Madam Registrar to give the usher P5112 --

2 Exhibit P5112? Sorry. I believe this is also binder number 10.

3 Q. Let me make a comparison. Is this an order dated 9 July?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What is the meaning of this order?

6 A. The meaning of this order is exactly what it says in it, and that

7 is that units could use detainees to work, to carry out some public works,

8 just as it says in this order, and that the security of these detainees

9 was granted by the person who took them over, who -- whose name is signed,

10 or who signed such an order.

11 Q. Who issued this particular order? Who signed it? Don't, please,

12 read any names.

13 A. This order, this approval, was issued by myself.

14 Q. Mr. NO, do you know how the detainees were taken over, how they

15 were brought to these various units?

16 A. The person -- first of all I would receive a request from a unit

17 and with the request, the person in charge would come to me, that person

18 would be in charge of the security of these detainees, that person would

19 then go to the Heliodrom military investigative prison, that person would

20 take over those prisoners, and then the same person would return the same

21 prisoners to the Heliodrom.

22 Q. You have practically answered my next question, but still I'm

23 going to put it to you for the record. Who was responsible for the

24 detainees as per this and similar orders?

25 A. The person who was responsible was the person who took them over.

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Page 12969

1 So the person who took them over was responsible for their safety and

2 security.

3 Q. Were detainees from Heliodrom taken exactly to these places that

4 were mentioned in the orders?

5 A. Yes, certainly. Persons would be taken to the place which was

6 found on the order.

7 Q. How often did that take place?

8 A. Every day.

9 Q. Mr. NO, could people, detainees, be taken from Heliodrom without

10 this or such an order?

11 A. I was not in Heliodrom, and I do not know. I think that they

12 could not be taken without an approval or an order.

13 Q. Do you know if the Vinko Skrobo ATG had its own, so to say,

14 detainees excluding those from the Heliodrom?

15 A. No. I'm not aware of that.

16 Q. Did you personally receive any complaint about the treatment of

17 these people from the Heliodrom?

18 A. Yes. Only a few, couple of times, two or three times, I had

19 complaints about some of the detainees being maltreated, but I don't

20 remember that this was done by the ATG -- by the Vinko Skrobo ATG.

21 Q. Mr. NO, did you have any knowledge that the Vinko Skrobo ATG unit

22 participated in the persecution of the Muslim population?

23 A. No, I did not have any such knowledge, but I would like to say

24 that there were a number of cases in which individuals or groups of

25 criminals would often pose as members of certain units to engage in

Page 12970

1 illegal, dirty activities, and to mask their trail. I remember that I

2 personally, on several occasions, bought such stories. I remember an

3 occasion -- I think it was in June. I know that at the time, the HVO

4 units were in the Northern Camp and that's why I believe it was prior to

5 the 30th of June, when my duty operations officer in the headquarters

6 called me, when I got there, a military police patrol was waiting for me

7 there and they told me that Mr. Martinovic, with a large group of his

8 members, tried to persecute Muslim civilians from one neighbourhood. I

9 found that very suspicious. I hadn't known Mr. Martinovic for a long

10 time, but he did not leave me with the impression of a person who was

11 capable of doing something like that. I asked the policeman in that

12 patrol whether they knew Mr. Martinovic, and they told me that it was on

13 that occasion that they saw him for the first time. Then, together with a

14 dozen other men and with a patrol of military police, I went to that

15 neighbourhood. We didn't find anybody there, but the Muslim civilians who

16 were visibly scared. I went to Mr. Martinovic's headquarters

17 immediately. Mr. Martinovic at the time, I think, was overseeing the

18 changeover of his troops on the front line. And then the policemen from

19 that patrol realised that Mr. Martinovic, the real Mr. Martinovic, is not

20 the same person that had introduced himself as Mr. Martinovic to them.

21 And then it was then that we realised that it must have been a group of

22 criminals posing as somebody else, and such instances were numerous at the

23 time in Mostar.

24 Q. Let's move on to another subject, events which took place on 17

25 September, 1993. Do you know what happened on that day?

Page 12971

1 A. It's very difficult to remember all the dates, but I do remember 9

2 of May, I do remember 30 June, 17 September. I remember these very well.

3 On that last day, members of the BH Army carried out one of the strongest

4 attacks on HVO units in the city of Mostar.

5 Q. What did you do in your area of responsibility in response to that

6 operation?

7 A. As every time when an attack was launched, I would order full

8 combat readiness, and immediately, all the units, with the maximum

9 strength, would be sent to the front line, and they -- then we would use

10 all the available weapons, and responded to the attack, in order to

11 prevent it, and in order to prevent the occupation of Mostar by the BH

12 Army units.

13 Q. Do you remember whether a tank was engaged in that operation?

14 A. I believe that there was one tank which was engaged in that

15 operation, along the entire length of the front line.

16 Q. Did you hear that on that occasion, in that operation, detainees

17 armed by wooden rifles, also participated in this operation?

18 A. Counsel, this is ridiculous. First of all, detainees never

19 participated in any operation. It was a war. It was not a movie being

20 filmed. And the stories about detainees and wooden rifles, I heard these

21 stories some two or three years after the end of the war. These stories

22 were launched by the AID in order to compromise the legal fight of the HVO

23 to defend the city of Mostar.

24 Q. What was the final outcome of the operation? Were there any

25 wounded, were there any casualties, anybody killed?

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Page 12973

1 A. The final outcome of the operation was that we preserved the front

2 line, the defence line, but we had major casualties. We had major

3 losses. I remember that we had between 15 and 20 of our men dead, and

4 there were certainly over 50 injured, both civilians and troops.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for my last question I

6 would like us to go to private session, if we may.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stringer, do you want to do your cross-examination

18 or we break here and after that, you do your cross-examination?

19 MR. STRINGER: Normally we would go until noon and then we would

20 break. I can begin now and go for 15 minutes, Mr. President. If that

21 would be the normal time that we would break. I'm ready to start.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, since we have 20 minutes early break, we prefer

23 we break right now, and we'll resume at quarter past 12.00. So we will

24 resume at that time.

25 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.

Page 12974

1 --- On resuming at 12.16 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer. Yes, Mr. Meek?

3 MR. MEEK: Mr. President, Your Honours, I was just in Defence

4 counsel room and Laurent from the registry told me that it was his

5 mistake. The meeting is tomorrow at 1.30, not today. I just found this

6 out. I'm sorry, luckily, I ran into him but he just told me that five

7 minutes ago, so I thought I would pass it on to you, Your Honours. Thank

8 you very much. I'm sorry.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, so in this case, we will sit according to our

10 normal hours.

11 Yes, Mr. Stringer.

12 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President, during the break we

13 distributed materials for use in the cross-examination. I believe on the

14 bench, the Trial Chamber has two groups of documents. One is in a binder,

15 and the other is bound, but is outside. In addition, the third thing

16 which is on the bench is a piece of paper from which I put the exhibits in

17 the order on which we propose to go through them during the

18 cross-examination. Judge Clark, the piece of paper does not -- I don't

19 intend, and I don't think it would be possible nor do I intend to go into

20 each of the documents that are found in the two groups but it is my hope

21 to at least pass across the documents that are listed in the order on the

22 one sheet of paper. The documents are tabbed at about every fifth

23 document, I believe, to assist the Trial Chamber in getting to them more

24 rapidly, in addition, during a certain part of the cross-examination, we

25 will be referring to log books which are found in the bound or the binder

Page 12975

1 itself.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Stringer:

3 Q. Witness, good afternoon, my name is Stringer I'm going to ask you

4 some questions on behalf of the Prosecution. I'll ask at this time, the

5 Registrar, or the usher provide the witness with the exhibits that are in

6 folder number 1 on the top of the pile. These are P246.1 and P560.2.

7 Witness, the document that I'm going to show you exist both

8 English and also in your language. I've just got a couple of brief

9 questions about these two documents.

10 246.1, sir, is a decision dated the 10th of February, 1993, from

11 Bruno Stojic.

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, I believe we need to pass into

13 private session for this.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

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22 [redacted]

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25 [redacted]

Page 12976

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22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. STRINGER:

25 Q. Witness, at about the time of this document, in August, 1993, did

Page 12977

1 Mr. Vladimir Primorac then become the commander of the 1st Battalion of

2 the military police?

3 A. I can't remember that he was appointed as such. I can't really

4 remember.

5 Q. Was he a member of the 1st Battalion of the military police?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, during -- you've testified about the period of time, May of

8 1993, to the end of the conflict. I want to ask you, sir, specifically

9 who were your superiors? And maybe just to speed things along, I'll put a

10 couple of names to you. Was your direct superior Miljenko Lasic, who was

11 the commander of the HVO Southeast Herzegovina operative zone?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And his direct superior, then, would have been the chief of the

14 HVO Main Staff, who, during these periods of time, would have been either

15 Milivoj Petkovic, then Slobodan Praljak, and then toward the end of the

16 conflict, Ante Roso?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, your subordinates, the persons directly subordinate to you,

19 you testified about the ATG Vinko Skrobo. Was Mr. Martinovic a direct

20 subordinate, sir, of you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. There was no one in between -- could we go into private session,

23 Mr. President?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

25 [Private session]

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Page 12983

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. STRINGER:

9 Q. Sir, we looked at one of these, a similar order earlier in your

10 direct examination. This is a different one. Different date. But very

11 similar. Do you recognise this, sir, as an order signed by you?

12 A. I see it now. There were quite a number of such orders. I do not

13 know what you mean by recognise.

14 Q. Does this appear to be an order signed by you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Dated the 2nd of August, 1993. Now, just a preliminary question,

17 because in your direct examination, you spoke about the ATG Vinko Skrobo,

18 and I made a note to ask you whether the ATG Vinko Skrobo is the same

19 thing as the ATG Mrmak, which figures on this document.

20 A. Yes. It is one and the same unit.

21 Q. Now, what I'd like to do, Mr. Witness, is to, with this and some

22 of the other documents, try to walk through some of the record keeping

23 that relates to the release of prisoners from the Heliodrom. Taking --

24 you've got this document in front of you, 554.1. If you could take the

25 next exhibit, which is Exhibit 434, out of the folder, now, just looking

Page 12984

1 over that document, sir, would you agree with me that 434 appears to be a

2 collection of many orders relating to the release of prisoners?

3 A. This is the first time I see this document.

4 Q. Okay. Let's work with this for a few moments. I want to direct

5 you, sir, to item number 87 on this exhibit, which is in front of you.

6 Again without mentioning your name, sir, this appears to relate to an

7 order, the ATG Mrmak of 2 August, 1993. And it's got a broj number

8 ending with the number 703/93. My question, sir, is whether it appears,

9 whether you would agree with me that item number 87 on this list

10 corresponds to the previous exhibit, 554.1?

11 A. Well, it looks like it.

12 Q. I'm just trying to see if we can establish a connection between

13 some of these orders issued by you and then the collection of orders that

14 are found in 434. Now, the next document would be 562.1. And let's keep

15 434 on the table as well. I'm going to ask the witness to refer back to

16 that. Witness, just taking a moment to look at this, it appears to me,

17 sir, that this order signed by you relates back to item number 119 in

18 Exhibit 434.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Then the next exhibit, 563.1, a document bearing your signature,

21 dated 12 August, 1993, would this relate to item number -- would this

22 relate to item number 134?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And now, Witness, just for the record, the three documents which

25 we've just looked at which contain your signature all relate to the

Page 12985

1 granting of permission to release detainees from the Heliodrom complex,

2 the central military remand prison, release of those detainees to the ATG

3 Mrmak? Is that correct?

4 A. I do not know what you mean by this.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

6 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, for the second time,

7 Mr. Stringer affirms that this is an order to release prisoners to let

8 them free, but it's not that. It means to release them to go to work.

9 That is what the document says. He just -- just a moment, 434.

10 MR. STRINGER: We agree that's what the document says. If I said

11 anything different then I made a mistake. I certainly didn't mean to

12 suggest that the witnesses were being set free or that the detainees were

13 being set free. So --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Seric. Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I object, for

16 the record, for the record, we were looking at the document marked 562.1,

17 but there is also document 562.11, and I'd merely like to check.

18 MR. STRINGER: I don't have an answer for counsel. I can perhaps

19 clear it up at the next break but 562.1 is the document that was put in

20 front of the witness.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed, and we'll check it.

22 MR. STRINGER:

23 Q. Witness, just to be clear, because Mr. Seric may have heard

24 something that's different than what I said in English, these documents

25 that we have been looking at which bear your signature, these are all

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Page 12987

1 orders in which you approved of the release of prisoners from the

2 Heliodrom so that they could go to work, a work assignment for the ATG

3 Mrmak; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And the ATG Mrmak at this time, sir, was under the command of

6 Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, the next exhibit is 603.2, and as we get to this one,

9 Witness, let me ask you, if you were familiar with any of the

10 record-keeping that took place at the Heliodrom when they actually came to

11 take the prisoners?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Sir, Exhibit 603.2 is dated 17 September, 1993. This relates to

14 an approval regarding the release of 30 prisoners or detainees from the

15 Heliodrom to go work for the ATG Vinko Skrobo; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, just to continue with the process, sir, does this order

18 relate or correspond to item number 284 in the other exhibit, which is

19 P434? Item number 284.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. So now recognising, sir, that you hadn't seen this

22 document before, 434, sir, this would appear to be a document that lists

23 many orders that came from you and others for the release of prisoners

24 from the Heliodrom to go on work assignments with any number of different

25 HVO units. Would you agree with me on that?

Page 12988

1 A. Well, it's possible.

2 Q. All right. Now, I want to try to take this one a next step

3 further and ask you to look at the next exhibit, which is 601.1. And, we

4 can set 434 aside for the moment. Sir, 601.1 is, I can represent, is a

5 book that contains lists of the names of many prisoners. I'm going to ask

6 you some questions about this and I'm going to direct you -- we can find

7 our way through by looking at the page numbers which are stamped on the

8 upper right-hand corner of the document. You see the stamped numbers on

9 the upper right-hand corner?

10 A. I do.

11 Q. Now we have just been looking at your order dated 17 September,

12 1993. This relates to the release of 30 detainees to the ATG Vinko

13 Skrobo. What I'd like to do, sir, is to take you to page -- the page

14 number with -- which ends with the letters 5272.

15 A. Could you repeat the number, please?

16 Q. Yeah. The last four digits are 5272. It's a double-sided

17 document. Now, this page, sir, appears to relate or correspond to the

18 date of 17 September, 1993. Do you see that written on the top of the

19 page?

20 A. I do.

21 Q. And then the right-hand column, sir, do you see a reference to

22 Vinko Skrobo?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. And then as you move down the page, you move across to the

25 following page, and you see a list of the names of 30 individuals there?

Page 12989

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, I want to just note for the record, sir, ask you if you see,

3 for example, item number 13, the name Hamdija Colakovic there?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Number 19, did you see the name of Enes Pajo?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Number 25 is Edin Tucakovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. 28 is Aziz Colakovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And then just under number 30, it appears, sir, that the person

12 who signed for these prisoners is named Dinko Knezovic; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, just looking at this document, sir, and again recognising

15 that you haven't seen it before, it would appear to me, sir, that this

16 list here corresponds to the release of prisoners that was approved by you

17 on the same date, September 17, 1993?

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20 If the witness is reading something, and we can all read that, then it

21 would be all right if he also read what it says at the end for that date,

22 the 17th of September, because it says they were returned at 1940.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, if the Prosecution wants to know this

24 information, he will ask the witness to confirm it. There is no need for

25 you to point this out to us. Yes, Mr. Stringer. You may continue.

Page 12990

1 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I? But I agree

2 with you, of course, but look at the date, the 27th, not the 17th, in the

3 Croatian original, and I do not think that this is irrelevant.

4 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, if I could respond to all of this,

5 these statements which are in my view at best saved for their

6 cross-examination, all of this can be brought out in cross, I really don't

7 see the point of just interjecting these sorts of issues during the direct

8 examination when they can be clarified on cross, if necessary.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 JUDGE CLARK: You are in cross.

11 MR. STRINGER: The redirect, I'm sorry.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think all those issues could be addressed in

13 the re-examination at a later stage.

14 MR. STRINGER:

15 Q. Witness, the next exhibit is 611.2. Exhibit 611.2. Yeah. Again

16 just for the record, sir, does this appear -- this appears to be an order

17 signed by you authorising the release of prisoners to the ATG Vinko Skrobo

18 on the 27th of September, 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And now this time we will skip over Exhibit 434 but we'll

21 move directly into Exhibit 601, which is this big book, and if I could,

22 sir, direct you to the page that ends with the numbers 5331? Do you see

23 first of all the date appearing at the top of that page, sir?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. Is that the 28th of September, 1993?

Page 12991

1 A. It is.

2 Q. And then the left hand column of that page relates to 20 persons

3 under the heading of the ATG Vinko Skrobo; is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. Now, coming back to your order, Exhibit 611.2, now, I notice, I

6 just ask you to look at the broj number, the reference number that appears

7 on your order. Do you see that in the upper left-hand corner? It's

8 02-157/93.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, is that same reference number found in the notations that you

11 see just under the Vinko Skrobo reference in this book, 601.1?

12 A. I don't know where.

13 Q. Okay. If you look at the ATG Vinko Skrobo here, then just

14 directly beneath that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Does that, sir, does that reference appear to correspond directly

17 to the same reference number that's found on your order of 27 September,

18 1993?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. The next is Exhibit 703.3. Sir, if I could just ask

21 you, can you look at that exhibit and tell me whether it is another order

22 signed by you, for the release of prisoners to the ATG Vinko Skrobo on 1

23 December, 1993?

24 A. I did not sign this order.

25 Q. Did -- so that someone else is signing over your name on this

Page 12992

1 particular document?

2 A. Possibly.

3 Q. Thank you. Are you able to recognise the signature appearing on

4 this one?

5 A. No, I can't.

6 Q. Now, I notice that on Exhibit 434, which was the list of all the

7 orders, there are a number of references to Mr. Vladimir Primorac. And

8 I'd like to ask you now to look at the next exhibit, 551.1. Witness --

9 yes, you can take away the book.

10 Witness, 551 is one exhibit, 551.1 is one exhibit but it consists

11 of a lot of different orders, all of which appear over the name and/or the

12 signature of Vladimir Primorac. I simply wanted to ask you to take a

13 moment to look at those and to tell me whether these appear also to be

14 orders issued by him or under his authority for release of prisoners to

15 the ATG Mrmak or ATG Vinko Skrobo.

16 MR. STRINGER: For the usher, we might want to have 434 ready.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. These are the orders.

18 MR. STRINGER:

19 Q. Okay. And we will just take this with one and not all of them,

20 just the first one, which is an order of Mr. Primorac dated 31 July, 1993,

21 for the release of 30 prisoners from the Heliodrom taken to the ATG

22 Mrmak. If I could direct you to item number 77, in Exhibit 434, just so

23 that we can see whether this order also corresponds back to Exhibit 434.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. The next exhibit is 562.2. And while that one is

Page 12993

1 coming, sir, let me ask you, do you know or do you recall that it was

2 Stanko Bozic who was the warden or the administrator in charge of the

3 central military remand prison at the Heliodrom?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And did you receive reports from Mr. Bozic from time to time

6 concerning the treatment of prisoners and the things taking place in

7 respect of prisoners who were being held at the Heliodrom?

8 A. Sometimes, but very rarely.

9 Q. Now, this, sir, can you just take a moment to look at this and

10 tell me whether this appears to be such a report made by Mr. Bozic, dated

11 the 10th of August, 1993?

12 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President I regret that we can't put these on

13 the ELMO but virtually all of them bear the witness's name so I think it's

14 just better not to do so.

15 Q. My question, sir, is whether you recall receiving a report on or

16 about the 10th of August, 1993, from Mr. Bozic concerning certain

17 prisoners that had been wounded while in the custody of the ATG Mrmak.

18 A. I've already answered, Mr. Prosecutor, that I rarely received

19 these reports, and I can't -- I can really not recall the dates when I

20 received any of them, because it was a long time ago altogether.

21 Q. Does this appear to be a genuine or an authentic reports that

22 would have been made by Mr. Bozic?

23 A. I believe that the report is authentic.

24 Q. And just for the record, this was a report sent not only to you

25 but also to Mr. Coric, who was the commander of the military police for

Page 12994

1 the HVO?

2 A. According to this report, it does seem so.

3 Q. The next exhibit is 565.3. My question, sir, is whether this also

4 appears to be a report by Mr. Bozic concerning some detainees that had

5 been released to the ATG Mrmak.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Okay. We can withdraw those exhibits and move on to

8 the next folder now. While the usher is getting the next folder, Witness,

9 let me ask you just a couple questions in general terms. The HV, the

10 Croatian Army, were units of the Croatian Army present in the Mostar or

11 Herzegovina region during the time that you've testified about, May in

12 1993 until the end of the conflict with the Muslims?

13 A. No, never were the HV units present in Herzegovina. There were

14 only individuals and volunteers who were born in Herzegovina, who were

15 members of the Croatian Army and when the war broke out in the area of

16 Herzegovina, they volunteered and joined the HVO, but not as members of

17 the Croatian Army but as those who were born in Herzegovina and came to

18 defend their native land.

19 Q. The next exhibit then is P638.2. Do you recognise that document,

20 sir?

21 A. This is a form, all such documents are very similar, and this here

22 is not my signature.

23 Q. So this is a document in which someone else signed above your name

24 as the commander of -- let me -- I can withdraw that last phrase. Someone

25 else signed this above your name, is that your testimony, sir?

Page 12995

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Page 12996

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. This is basically the same form that we've seen in all of the

3 other documents that we've looked at previously that relate to the ATG

4 Mrmak?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sir, now this document in fact grants permission for a unit of the

7 Croatian Army to take 45 prisoners from the Heliodrom, isn't that true?

8 A. No. There was no Croatian Army there.

9 Q. So whoever made this form, then, was mistaken as to who they were

10 granting authority to? Is that your testimony?

11 A. Yes. It is correct that a mistake was made.

12 Q. Okay. If we could go back to Exhibit 434, please, which contains

13 the list of orders, I want to direct your attention, sir, to item number

14 381 in that exhibit. Sir, does Exhibit 434, item 381, contain the

15 reference to the order that we are just looking at, sir, your order or an

16 order issued on your name to release prisoners to a HV unit?

17 A. No. There was no HV in the area of Herzegovina. I don't know how

18 could anybody write this, that it was the HV. These letters, HV, they

19 don't mean that -- they don't stand for the Croatian Army.

20 Q. They don't -- HV does not stand for the Croatian Army?

21 A. It doesn't have to be the Croatian Army.

22 Q. Were there other units bearing the initials HV, sir, operating in

23 your zone of responsibility that had some different origin?

24 A. Within my -- the brigades, there were smaller units which were

25 called differently and these reports were then given to their respective

Page 12997

1 brigades. There were different names. Those were smaller organisational

2 units at the level of a squad or a platoon.

3 Q. I'll ask the witness be shown Exhibit 566.2. This is in the

4 binder, Mr. President. This is another one of these books, Witness, that

5 we looked at already. I just want to direct your attention to some

6 entries in these books. In 566.2, if you could go to page ending 4545, on

7 that page, sir, in the left-hand column do you see a reference to HV,

8 taking a couple prisoners out of the Heliodrom complex?

9 A. It does say HV, but this HV does not mean that it was the Croatian

10 Army, because there was no Croatian Army in the area at all.

11 Q. Page 4574, do you have that page, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you see the reference to the HV 1 Brigade?

14 A. Yes, I do see that it says so.

15 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that this is a unit of the Croatian Army that

16 was present in Herzegovina, taking prisoners out of the Heliodrom to work?

17 A. No. The 1st Brigade of the Croatian Army was not there, and

18 neither was any other unit of the Croatian Army, but again, I repeat that

19 there were volunteers, people who left for Croatia from Western

20 Herzegovina during the Croatian Army, 1991, during the time when the war

21 was on in Croatia. After that, the same people who were natives of

22 Western Herzegovina, returned from the Croatian Army and they came to

23 fight with the Croatian Defence Council. There were no organised units of

24 the Croatian Army in the area.

25 Q. The next exhibit is 567.1. Sir, if I could directs your attention

Page 12998

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Page 12999

1 to the page ending 5048? Now, sir, it appears to me there are references

2 to three different HV units here removing prisoners from the Heliodrom on

3 the 22nd of August, 1993. 2nd Brigade and also 1st Brigade. Do you see

4 that?

5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've already answered, in Herzegovina there were

6 no units of the Croatian Army, so units of the Croatian Army could not

7 take prisoners.

8 Q. Next exhibit is 645.1. Pages 5513 and 5514. Now, sir, on these

9 two pages there are references to 1 Brigade HV, 2 Brigade HV, the date I

10 believe the 29th of October, 1993. Sir, I understand or I assume that

11 your answer will be the same. Based on everything we are looking at here,

12 sir, do you allow for the possibility that discrete units of the HV were

13 present down in the Herzegovina area and were using prisoners from the

14 Heliodrom to -- on work assignments?

15 A. No. There were never any HV units in the area of Herzegovina.

16 The only ones who came to the area of Herzegovina were those people who

17 were in the Croatian Army before that, whose relatives lived in

18 Herzegovina, and as the war broke out in Herzegovina, these people

19 returned as individuals. There were no units of the Croatian Army in

20 Herzegovina.

21 Q. We can withdraw these exhibits now and pass on to the next

22 folder. Witness, I want to talk to you for a couple of minutes about some

23 of the other units that availed themselves of the prisoners in the

24 Heliodrom complex. The next folder would be folder number 4, next exhibit

25 is P565.5. Sir, did you also receive reports from Mr. Bozic about

Page 13000

1 injuries and deaths of Muslim prisoners who had been in the custody of the

2 2nd Battalion of the HVO 2nd Brigade?

3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already told you that I received several

4 reports from Mr. Bozic. Those reports were few and far between but I

5 really can't remember which units availed themselves of these prisoners.

6 Q. This document, sir, does this appear to be another one of the

7 reports made by Mr. Bozic?

8 A. This document does seem to be one of those reports.

9 Q. Next is Exhibit P605.1. Sir, this is a document, a report from

10 Mr. Bozic dated 18 September, 1993. My question is whether, in fact, this

11 is also one of the reports made by Mr. Bozic regarding the condition or

12 treatment of prisoners?

13 A. This is a report which was made by Mr. Bozic.

14 Q. Now, I want to look at this report for a moment, and we actually I

15 think could put the first page on the ELMO of the English version. Now,

16 sir, it appears here that you had issued an order releasing 70 detainees.

17 Now, I'm sorry, we can't put that on the ELMO. I apologise.

18 You issued an order for the release of 70 detainees to the 2nd

19 Brigade, and that some five days later on the 18th of September, the

20 detainees still had not returned. Mr. Bozic says that this is a brigade

21 where detainees have been mistreated and beaten the most, have had a

22 fairly large number of deaths among them, a copy of this report was sent

23 to you by Mr. Bozic. Now, my question, sir, as we have seen a series of

24 these orders, and I recognise you say that you didn't receive these sorts

25 of reports often, but we've seen a series of these reports now in which

Page 13001

1 Mr. Bozic is reporting on the wounding, killing, mistreatment of

2 prisoners, and yet, sir, you continued to sign orders authorising these

3 units to take prisoners out of the Heliodrom. My question is what

4 measures did you take, sir, given your position, to ensure that prisoners

5 were not mistreated and were not put in positions where they had to work

6 under dangerous conditions? What did you do to stop that from happening

7 after you received these reports?

8 A. Let me repeat once again. I received very few of these reports.

9 I received them very rarely. And as soon as I received one, I would take

10 measures, if we were to find out that any of the detainees were wounded,

11 such a detainee would be given medical assistance, such a detainee would

12 be taken to the general hospital in Mostar. If we were to learn which was

13 very rarely, that some detainees were mistreated, I do allow that this may

14 have happened, but only very rarely, then, together with the commander of

15 that particular unit where -- which availed itself of the detainees, we

16 would carry out an investigation and when we found out who participated in

17 the mistreatment of the detainees, we would carry out an investigation and

18 we would punish them. During this period, we carried out all sorts of

19 investigations of all sorts of crimes, some of the perpetrators were

20 discovered, some were not. However, in the archives of the military

21 police, you can find documents showing that over 2.000 cases were

22 processed for various crimes and out of these, over 70 per cent involved

23 Croatian nationals, people of Croatian nation. However, Your Honours, you

24 have to know that at that time, the situation in Mostar was chaotic, that

25 the war was raging, that people were being killed every day, that people

Page 13002

1 were being injured every day, that there were some several tens of

2 thousands of people, Croat, who were expelled from the Eastern Mostar,

3 from other parts of Herzegovina, from Central Bosnia. There were very

4 frequent power cuts, there was not enough food.

5 Q. Sir, I apologise for interrupting but I think I need to try to

6 bring you back to some of the questions that I've got to ask you.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I interrupt very rarely

8 but I believe it would only be fair to the witness if the explanation --

9 if he gives the full explanation. The witness is trying to explain

10 everything to the Honourable Court. I think it would be only fair if we

11 let him say what he has to say.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this Trial Chamber has the right to cut

13 short any answers by this witness. I think the first few lines of his

14 previous answer is good enough.

15 You may proceed, Mr. Stringer.

16 MR. STRINGER: Thank you Mr. President. I think I did allow the

17 witness sufficient time to give a full explanation and I only interrupted

18 when I thought that it was getting a bit beyond who was necessary.

19 Q. The next two exhibits are 606.3, 607.4. Witness, these appear to

20 be two orders over your signature, dated 20 September and 21 September,

21 1993; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, this is what I wanted to ask you about these two orders.

24 These are both orders in which you're releasing prisoners to again the 2nd

25 Battalion of the 2nd Brigade on the 20th and 21st. Now, we have already

Page 13003

1 seen the report issued by Mr. Bozic on the 18th of September. That's

2 Exhibit 605.1, in which he informs you and others that 70 prisoners,

3 previously released to this unit, had not even been returned. He informs

4 you that this unit is particularly brutal in dealing with the prisoners.

5 He does this in his report of 18 September, and in fact, sir, rather than

6 conducting an investigation, rather than taking measures to prevent this

7 sort of thing from happening, in these two exhibits, you continue to

8 approve and to grant the release of additional prisoners to the same

9 unit.

10 A. Prosecutor, can you -- can I please have the first document back?

11 I believe that in the first document, does not refer to the 2nd Battalion

12 of the 2nd Brigade.

13 Q. 605.1. We could also give the witness 565.5.

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, in this document, it says that 70 detainees have

15 been released to the 2nd Brigade, not the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade

16 and I wish to inform you that the 2nd Brigade had the 1st Battalion, the

17 2nd Battalion, the 3rd Battalion, the 4th Battalion. That the 2nd Brigade

18 had four battalions. And that these are all each one of them entities

19 unto themselves.

20 Q. Let's go back to 565.5, then. This is a report you received from

21 Mr. Bozic dated 16 August, 1993, reporting to you the death of a prisoner,

22 the wounding of additional prisoners, who had previously been released to

23 the 2nd Battalion of the 2nd Brigade. So this is my question: Before

24 releasing more prisoners to this unit in September of 1993, which is what

25 you did on the 20th and 21st, before releasing those prisoners, what did

Page 13004

1 you do to investigate these incidents that occurred in August of 1993?

2 What did you do to make sure that these sorts of events didn't happen

3 again?

4 A. I've already answered that. So those detainees who had been

5 harassed, then an investigation would be conducted, and the culprits who

6 would be identified would then be punished.

7 Q. Well, sir, as indicated in virtually all these reports, these are

8 prisoners who are killed or wounded by fire coming from the other side of

9 the confrontation line, the Muslim armed forces. Are those the culprits?

10 Are those the persons that you viewed as responsible for the deaths and

11 woundings of these prisoners?

12 A. Well, all these detainees were wounded when fire was opened from

13 the Muslim side, because the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time

14 shelled the city mercilessly, and then there would be some killed, not

15 only amongst the detainees, there would also be some lethalities its among

16 the civilian population because after all, it was a war, so there was

17 shelling and gunfire every day.

18 Q. And it was a war in which Muslim prisoners released on your

19 authority were put directly into the middle of the confrontation line,

20 used as human shields, tasked to move fortifications and sand bags, and it

21 was in the course of those activities that they were wounded and killed,

22 sir, isn't that true?

23 A. No. That is not so, Mr. Prosecutor.

24 Q. You deny that that occurred, sir? You deny that prisoners, Muslim

25 prisoners from the Heliodrom were tasked to work in the confrontation

Page 13005

1 lines along the Bulevar and Santiceva Street in Mostar? Is that your

2 testimony?

3 A. Yes. Those things did not happen.

4 Q. Exhibit 565.5. These men who were killed and wounded, Juso Jevic

5 [phoen], Nedzad Kuvic [phoen], Jevo Colakovic [phoen] and Ibro Kriza

6 [phoen]. Whatever came of the investigation into the wounding and killing

7 of these men? What's the result? Are you able to tell us? Who was

8 punished for this?

9 A. All these men were wounded in the depths of the city, and they

10 were victims of the shells and fire that came from the Army of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina.

12 Q. So that as a result, sir, no one on the HVO side in your view was

13 responsible for what happened to those men?

14 A. I don't understand your question, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 Q. Who on the HVO side is responsible for what happened to those

16 men? Anyone?

17 A. In what sense do you mean when you say "responsible"?

18 Q. Criminally responsible.

19 A. I have already answered that the detainees were killed during the

20 shelling by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and by their snipers.

21 Q. We can move to the next folder of exhibits, Mr. President. The

22 next exhibit is 607.2. Sir, this exhibit actually includes a couple of

23 documents, one is a handwritten note and then the other one appears to be

24 written by Mr. Bozic; is that correct?

25 A. And there is Mr. Bozic, too, yes.

Page 13006

1 Q. My question, sir, before talking about this in greater detail, is

2 it true, sir, that the Convicts Battalion, the Kaznjenicka Bojna, as well

3 as the various ATGs had access to use of prisoners who were being held at

4 the Heliodrom complex?

5 A. No, they did not have access.

6 Q. Well, why not? Why not the Convicts Battalion? It appears to me

7 that virtually all the other HVO units could use prisoners. Why not the

8 KB?

9 A. Units from Mostar, based on the application and our authorisation,

10 and I do not see here that the Convicts Battalion had applied for an

11 authorisation.

12 Q. Now, this report of Mr. Bozic indicates that on the 20th and 21st

13 of September, 1993, a number of prisoners were released from the Heliodrom

14 on the orders of Mr. Ivan Andabak, and then on the 21st of September, as

15 ordered by Mr. Mladen Naletilic, Tuta. Do you recall that, sir?

16 A. No, I do not recall this. I am not aware of this.

17 Q. And looking at the names of the persons being released in this

18 document, sir, these appear to me to be all Croatian or Croat persons who

19 were in the prison for having committed a number of serious crimes.

20 A. The names of these people do not ring any bell with me.

21 Q. In fact, sir, these prisoners were released just a day or two

22 prior to the combat operation that is occurred in Rastani, isn't that

23 true?

24 A. You said that, Mr. Prosecutor.

25 Q. Do you know that combat operations between the HVO and the Armija

Page 13007

1 took place in Rastani during 22nd, 23rd, 24th of September, 1993?

2 A. Well, I can't remember the exact date, but there were certain

3 activities in Rastani, some fighting, some combat operations in Rastani,

4 but I can't remember the exact date.

5 MR. STRINGER: Could the witness be shown Exhibit 566.2? It's one

6 of the books that we've already looked at, 566.2.

7 Q. Witness, I want to direct you to page ending with the numbers

8 4685.

9 A. Could you repeat the number, please?

10 Q. Ending 4685. Directing your attention sir to the top of the

11 left-hand column do you see a reference there to Kaznjenicka?

12 A. It says here, Kaznjenicka.

13 Q. And then just it appears to me, sir, that the date of this is the

14 21st of September, the date appears on the page opposite. Now, looking,

15 sir, back at 607.2, Mr. Bozic's report, you see the names of the persons

16 being released or identified by Mr. Bozic as having been released?

17 A. Well, it's Bozic who wrote this.

18 Q. Yes. And the names appearing on this report, sir, are -- match

19 the names appearing on page 4685 of this logbook. Isn't that true?

20 A. The names in these two Bozic's reports, yes, they tally.

21 Q. So again, sir, I want to simply ask you, isn't it true that the

22 Kaznjenicka Bojna, the Convicts Battalion, did have the ability or the

23 authority to pull prisoners out of the Heliodrom for use on whatever tasks

24 they deemed necessary?

25 A. No, not in this way.

Page 13008

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stringer, I think it's time for us to have

2 our break.

3 Witness, I'm sorry, we have to keep you for another day in The

4 Hague. I have to remind you that during your stay in The Hague, you are

5 still under the oath, so please do not talk to anybody or let anybody talk

6 to you about your testimony.

7 We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

9 1.44 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

10 the 26th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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