Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13088

1 Thursday, 27 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Could we have the witness, please? Yes,

9 Mr. Krsnik?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good morning, very

11 briefly, I merely wish to tell you that yesterday we wrote a motion which

12 we filed this morning, which has to do with our suggestion regarding the

13 final witnesses in Mladen Naletilic case, and our suggestion is to

14 organise for a week before the holidays, to organise the videolink for all

15 those who were to testify through depositions and Mr. Martinovic's Defence

16 can start on the 15th as planned. I merely wish to inform thaw we wrote

17 that motion yesterday and filed it today.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 MR. KRSNIK: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: And we will render our decisions after receiving your

21 motion.

22 Mr. Scott, are you going to reply to this motion or you may do it

23 orally.

24 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we haven't received it yet so when we

25 have a chance to look at it we'll make a response. It may be that

Page 13089

1 depending on the motion we can just respond orally once we have had a

2 chance to review it.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Seric?

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Very

5 briefly, Mr. Martinovic's Defence can go along with Mr. Naletilic's

6 Defence but we'd like to know what is your decision as soon as possible so

7 that we could organise the arrival of our witnesses, because it doesn't --

8 it does make a difference if it will be ten or 15 days, whether we will

9 have ten or 15 working days because the number of witnesses will also

10 depend on that of course.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the other day, I've already said

12 that your case will start on the 15th of July, and at this moment, we are

13 getting in touch with the Registrar to arrange the time and facilities for

14 the videolink witnesses in the Naletilic case. So as soon as we get the

15 specific reply from the Registrar, we will make the decision in this

16 aspect.

17 Yes. Could we have the witness, please?

18 [The witness entered court]

19 WITNESS: WITNESS NP [Resumed]

20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. You may sit down, please.

22 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, you may continue with your

23 cross-examination.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Poriouvaev: [Continued]

Page 13090

1 Q. Witness NP, is it correct that the first volunteers to the

2 regiment Kralj Tomislav was established in July 1992 in Opuzen? Excuse me

3 pronunciation of the location.

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, Kralj Tomislav volunteer regiment was based at

5 Cepikuce and its first headquarters was in Opuzen, and then in January, it

6 moved to Vrgorac.

7 Q. Is it correct that Ludvig Pavlovic unit was created on the basis

8 of these first volunteer regiment?

9 A. Ludvig Pavlovic was made of the former members of the Kralj

10 Tomislav volunteer regiment, Croats, Bosniaks and new members who joined

11 in Capljina.

12 Q. Sir, was the first regiment -- I mean Kralj Tomislav, a HV or an

13 HVO unit?

14 A. Kralj Tomislav volunteer regiment was a unit of the Croatian Army

15 in the Republic of Croatia.

16 Q. Is it correct that it was commanded, I mean the 1st regiment was

17 commanded by brigadier Mate Sarlija or Daidza?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that Bozan Simovic was his deputy?

20 A. Bozan Simovic commanded a battalion in the Kralj Tomislav

21 regiment. General Daidza did not have a deputy.

22 Q. Is it correct that the regiment was disbanded in April, 1992?

23 A. No. It was disbanded at a later date. I do not know exactly

24 when. After Ludvig Pavlovic was established, then General Daidza formed

25 another regiment, I believe it was called Nihad Kulenovic and it was

Page 13091

1 either in Jablanica or in Konjic.

2 Q. Is it correct that some of the members of the former 1st Regiment

3 joined the new unit created by Daidza and the other part of soldiers

4 departed with Bozan Simovic to Capljina?

5 A. The majority of members went to Capljina with Bozan Simovic

6 and Nihad Kulenovic was made of new members and a very small number of men

7 from the former regiment, from the former Kralj Tomislav Regiment.

8 Q. Which part of the former 1st Regiment did you join?

9 A. I joined the former part, the one which later on set up the Ludvig

10 Pavlovic unit, but at Daidza's request I went to Bosnia with him several

11 times.

12 Q. Is it correct that Capljina municipal authorities allowed the unit

13 which would be called Ludvig Pavlovic later to use the Gabela Barracks?

14 A. The authorities in Capljina allowed the Ludvig Pavlovic unit to

15 use the barracks in Gabela only after the large barracks in Capljina was

16 liberated.

17 Q. Is it correct that somewhere in December, 1992, your unit had

18 somewhere around 118 soldiers?

19 A. Possibly. I do not know the exact number, but yes, it's about

20 that size.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the usher to put before -- in front

22 of the witness Exhibit number 206.1.

23 Q. Sir, I would like you to look down the document and direct your

24 attention to item B, which contains the description of Ludvig Pavlovic

25 unit.

Page 13092

1 A. I read it, Mr. Prosecutor.

2 Q. And you may also take a look at some diagrams here, table, on the

3 second page of this. There is some diagram.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And to the effect that Ludvig Pavlovic had 118 soldiers in

6 December, 1992.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. Sir, does this description of Ludvig Pavlovic unit

9 correspond to the real situation in which Ludvig Pavlovic unit found

10 itself in December, 1992?

11 A. Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I'm glad to have read this, but I cannot

12 make assessments of my unit, but it could be true.

13 Q. For example, it was well equipped materially and well trained, is

14 it correct?

15 A. Well, that is not quite correct. It was far from outstanding

16 military organisation but in relation to other units, we were well

17 organised. As for the equipment, all that we captured, we did not sell

18 it, we kept it and then distributed it amongst the members of the unit.

19 Q. Thank you very much. So is it your testimony that most of the

20 soldiers were former HV soldiers?

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wish to draw your

23 attention and I'd like to ask -- I waited to finish with this document,

24 because we have adopted a new rule not to stand up whilst the document is

25 still being discussed, namely this document, 206.1 which now emerges as a

Page 13093

1 new document from the Zagreb archive and it is a very interesting

2 document. I'd like to know when did OTD get it because this document says

3 loudly and clearly, several things. First, that the Convicts Battalion

4 was commanded by Mario Hrkac, that ATG Baja Kraljevic was commanded by --

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would object.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] May I finish? Just a moment. You

7 can object but it's my turn now. So you wait until I finish.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, do not touch upon the contents of

9 this document until the witness is gone, and you may make objections about

10 authenticity of this document.

11 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

12 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik, I believe you still have the opportunity

13 during your re-examination, if you are going to touch upon the contents of

14 this document.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours. I

16 respect every decision that you make and I will do so this time. I merely

17 wish to say such assertions when we had witnesses from the Prosecution did

18 not exist and the Prosecutor spoke in front of the witnesses whatever he

19 liked to and whenever I stood up and requested that the witness be taken

20 out, that it should not be said in front of the witness, the witness

21 nevertheless stayed in and the Prosecutor behaved in this way and I do not

22 see what this witness has to do with my objection about an exculpatory

23 document.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I've already said that you may

25 challenge the authenticity of this document at this moment but do not

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Page 13095

1 touch upon the contents of that document while the witness is here. We

2 will give you the opportunity at a later stage when this document is

3 submitted for admission.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am not trying to

5 question its authenticity. My question was when did the OTP enter into

6 possession of this document because this is an exculpatory document and

7 when is it that they got this document. That was all but we can leave it

8 until a later stage. Thank you.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Shall I reply? Or there is no need?

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: First of all, we are well aware of our ongoing

13 obligation to disclose all exculpatory documents and we are doing that as

14 soon as new documents are coming in.

15 JUDGE CLARK: Sorry for cutting across here, the point you're

16 making, Mr. Krsnik, is a very valid point and we picked it up immediately.

17 What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the Gander, if Mr. Krsnik can't

18 discuss did in front of the witness, neither can the Prosecution. We

19 would be very happy to have a discussion about this document when the

20 witness lass completed his evidence. Thank you.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. It makes things easier, for

22 me at least.

23 Q. Now, I would ask the Trial Chamber to move to private session for

24 some moment.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

Page 13096

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20 [Open session]

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are in the open session.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Can you give me a response?

24 A. Mate Boban, I received, that is we received, on the 6th of June,

25 and that is the day when we were founded, and the battalion had 500 men on

Page 13098

1 its strength.

2 Q. When was it called "Independent HVO Battalion"?

3 A. It was called "the unit for special purposes Ludvig Pavlovic" by

4 its establishment it was supposed to be of the strength of a battalion.

5 Q. Is it correct that on the 23rd of August, 1992, this battalion was

6 called Ludvig Pavlovic? Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what

7 stands for Ludvig Pavlovic, who stands for Ludvig Pavlovic?

8 A. Ludvig Pavlovic was born in Ljubuski. He was an emigrant. He

9 returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina with a group of people. He was in prison,

10 he was liberated in 1990, and in 1991, he was killed.

11 Q. Maybe now for reasons of safety, we should return to closed

12 session.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go back to the private session, please.

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4 [Open session]

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

6 Q. Witness, would it be fair to say that the HVO command was prepared

7 for the events of the 9th of May, which occurred in Mostar?

8 A. I wouldn't say that it was very prepared, because there had been

9 too -- there were too many victims, too many casualties, but in any case,

10 even before that, there were some prepatory commands, alerts, because of

11 the events that had taken place in Central Bosnia and in Herzegovina.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

13 365.1.

14 Q. Are you familiar with this order?

15 A. May I please read it? I've read it.

16 Q. So were you aware of this order?

17 A. I do not remember this order. I don't believe that Mr. Petkovic

18 signed it, because I never split my units.

19 Q. But do you agree that your unit was ready on the basis of this

20 order or some other order, to intervene in some military actions? In May,

21 1993?

22 A. Yes. It would have been if it was not engaged in combat

23 elsewhere.

24 Q. Isn't it your statement that your unit was also involved in the

25 military operations in Mostar on the 9th and 10th of May, 1993?

Page 13104

1 A. Yes. I explained yesterday how we arrived and how we joined the

2 fighting in Mostar.

3 Q. Do you remember approximately at what time you received a signal,

4 information, about the events in Mostar on the 9th of May?

5 A. I can't remember exactly. It was early in the morning. The duty

6 operations officer woke me up. I only remember that it was very early in

7 the morning.

8 Q. How long did it take you to get from Capljina to Mostar?

9 A. When I was explaining things yesterday, I told you that with the

10 intervention unit in passenger vehicles and in jeeps, we headed off for

11 Mostar and it took us about an hour via Citluk, we couldn't go via Mostar

12 because the Bosniaks had occupied Mahala.

13 Q. So at what time did you arrive in Mostar, approximately?

14 A. That really depends on the time when I started. I believe that it

15 was sometime between 7.00 and 8.00.

16 Q. Did you see Mr. Lasic personally on that day?

17 A. On that day, I saw Mr. Lasic on several occasions.

18 Q. Was it him who communicated his order to you, and determined your

19 role in Mostar military operation?

20 A. No. I believe it was somebody from the Main Staff, because when I

21 arrived, Mr. Lasic was not there. I believe -- this gentleman was an

22 elderly gentleman, either Slavko Puljic or another Chief of the Main

23 Staff. I can't remember exactly.

24 Q. When you arrived in Mostar, was the fighting under way already?

25 A. Yes. Mostar was aflame, literally aflame. There were many

Page 13105

1 civilians, women, children, men, who were roaming around the town and

2 fleeing the places where the fighting was underway.

3 Q. Did you see from the Rondo area, where you were deployed at that

4 time, that Vranica building was already ablaze?

5 A. I was not stationed at the Rondo. At first, I was not at Rondo.

6 I went straight from Bijeli Brijeg towards Vranica and towards the

7 dormitory, students' residence building.

8 Q. Was the building ablaze?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it your statement that it was ABiH who attacked HVO on the 9th

11 of May?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How do you know that?

14 A. That is what they told me. I was not in Mostar. They told me

15 that on the previous day, on that day, they killed some people, some

16 policemen, they captured some people, took them prisoner.

17 Q. Whom do you mean by "they"?

18 A. I mean the command of the Mostar Corps.

19 Q. So it is not your personal knowledge, it's the information that

20 you got from others, right?

21 A. I believe I explained that I was stationed in Capljina, that I

22 wasn't in Mostar.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

25 374.

Page 13106

1 Q. This SpaBat Intrep, filed on the 9th of May, 1993. Yes. It also

2 has a B/C/S version. Page 34. Just not relevant to Mostar. We will take

3 a look, a quick look at this part of the document. Do you see that at

4 5.00, mortar attacks were launched against the Muslim sector from HVO

5 positions?

6 A. Yes, I've read that.

7 Q. Do you agree that the information that you had got on that day, on

8 the initiator of the attack might have been wrong?

9 A. I don't agree. I've read on, and it says that the building

10 housing the command of the 41st Brigade of the army is ablaze. I don't

11 know what building is that. There is the building of the 4th Corps.

12 Q. Maybe it might have been wrong interpreted by SpaBat but it was

13 the Vranica building?

14 A. I don't know. It's possible.

15 Q. All right. Is it your testimony that you were given platoon -- a

16 platoon from the 3rd Brigade and as a reserve, Juka's unit?

17 A. The platoon from the 3rd Brigade had already been deployed there

18 and Juka was given to us as a reserve in case we needed anybody.

19 Q. Did you need him?

20 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we are not receiving the

21 Croatian interpretation. I understood it but the witness has not received

22 the interpretation in B/C/S, of the last question, that is.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, would you please try that again?

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

25 Q. Did you need Juka's unit during the operation of the 9th and 10th

Page 13107

1 of May in Mostar?

2 A. Yes. Later on, I did.

3 Q. When? What do you mean by "later"?

4 A. The first time they helped me when we were breaking through from

5 Rondo, from the Rondo area, and the second time during the fierce battles

6 around Vranica on the second day because him and his group had a lot of

7 experience in fighting within town. That experience he got in Sarajevo

8 where he was one of the best-known defendants of Sarajevo.

9 Q. Was he under your command, under your direct command?

10 A. We were equal. I was the commander of the independent unit. He

11 was also the commander of an independent unit. But when he got there, he

12 would turn to me and ask for orders.

13 Q. Did you give orders to him?

14 A. Not really. I would actually inform him. I would put him in the

15 picture, and if there was a need, he would join the fighting.

16 Q. Is it correct that on the following day, I mean the 10th of May,

17 the 4th HVO Brigade Stjepan Radic was placed under your command?

18 A. No.

19 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

20 376.1.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

23 Q. Do you agree that such kind of order existed?

24 A. I don't agree. It may have been written by somebody but I

25 really -- I never saw it, nor was this unit placed under my command, ever.

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Page 13109

1 Q. Who was in the overall command of the military operation in

2 Mostar?

3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, the commander of the operation zone Eastern

4 Herzegovina was Mr. Miljenko Lasic.

5 Q. I'm well aware of it but who was in command of the operation?

6 A. I've told you already, at least who I received my orders from.

7 Q. So it was Miljenko Lasic, right?

8 A. My immediate commander was Miljenko Lasic, and I don't know

9 whether his commander may have been Miljenko Petkovic. That I really

10 don't know.

11 Q. My next question will be is it your testimony that it were you,

12 your soldiers, and Juka's soldiers who were searching Vranica building

13 after it had been secured?

14 A. No. The Vranica building was searched by myself. I first checked

15 whether there were any booby traps, any mines, and after that, I collected

16 the archives and all the other documents. Juka Prazina was outside and he

17 was the one who took over the prisoners.

18 Q. And yesterday, during the examination-in-chief, you claimed that

19 you told Juka to escort prisoners taken from Vranica building on the 10th

20 of May, to military police, and you also stated that you think that he did

21 so. But do you really know if he escorted them to the military police?

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I said yesterday that I headed towards the

23 ministry building to hand over the archives, and that I asked for

24 permission to move my unit towards Capljina. I did that, and about half

25 an hour later, I moved my unit towards Capljina. I did not do any

Page 13110

1 subsequent checkings.

2 Q. But do you know that 12 prisoners taken out of Vranica building

3 have never been seen alive?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we have the

6 foundation for this? And I'm asking for it because the Prosecutor knows

7 very well indeed, he is well aware, that for this incident, a man has been

8 brought to justice in Mostar, at their orders, and I do not know why is he

9 inviting this witness to speculate. And whether they are missing or not,

10 nobody is known to this day. These are speculative questions

11 necessitating speculative answers, and the OTP knows very well that there

12 is a case in Mostar against a man at the orders of this -- of this OTP,

13 and he's the head of the -- the chief of the Mostar police who is now on

14 trial.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well --

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: May I reply, Your Honour?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: We had a number of witnesses here in the

19 courtroom who claimed that those people were never seen alive. That's

20 what I claim. That's what I ask this witness to respond. There is no

21 speculation at all.

22 JUDGE LIU: And this witness was there at that moment, and he

23 might know, and he might not know about that fact. Who knows? We will

24 hear the answer from this witness.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yesterday I spoke

Page 13111

1 about two groups of prisoners. This group of how many, 12 men, was not

2 taken from Vranica. It was captured in the area between Vranica and

3 Rondo. I also said that from the contact zone, we went away and then

4 returned to it, so that I really do not know about it. And I do not know

5 about these next group. I said we had no conditions to keep prisoners.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

7 Q. Okay. Is it correct that you saw Mladen Naletilic on the 10th of

8 May in front of the Ministry of Defence?

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, merely to inform you

11 that I do not have to copy the documents, and then translate them for

12 you. Have you finished your previous question? I have to ask the

13 Prosecutor.

14 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, I'm making a second question.

15 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] This has to do with the previous

16 question about those 12 men. There is, and there was completed, the

17 investigation, the first instance judgement was passed, and the case is in

18 the appeals court, and that was all done on the orders of this Tribunal.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I don't see any connections for your

20 explanation in this aspect. I think the Prosecution has asked that

21 question and the witness has already answered that already. We are not

22 charging anybody in this Tribunal about the fate of that 12 men at this

23 stage. Let's move on.

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

25 Q. So my question was: Do you confirm that you saw Mr. Naletilic on

Page 13112

1 the 10th of May in front of the Ministry of Defence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was he alone?

4 A. I've already said that there were -- that the whole area was awash

5 with people, civilians and soldiers, and when I approached and started to

6 tell Juka not to hit his acquaintance. He came -- Juka came to me and

7 asked me how was it.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

9 A. I do not know how to explain. There was a lot of people there,

10 whether somebody had come with him or whether he was alone there, I do not

11 know but there were indeed very many people there. Because I do not know

12 whether he had come with somebody else.

13 Q. Did you see Miljenko Lasic at that time together with Mladen

14 Naletilic?

15 A. I don't think so. It was a long time ago but I think not.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Zeljko Bosnjak?

17 A. Which Zeljko Bosnjak?

18 Q. Don't you know that person?

19 A. No, no, no. I know several Zeljko Bosnjaks.

20 Q. Did you see any of them in front of the Ministry of Defence, on

21 that day?

22 A. I do not remember, Mr. Prosecutor.

23 Q. Okay. Did you ever participate in any other military operations

24 together with Juka Prazina?

25 A. I do not recall that I cooperated with him ever again but I did

Page 13113

1 see him on a couple of occasions again, once again we were in Mostar, he

2 came there too and came to say hello.

3 Q. Did you see him in the area of Prozor?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Yesterday, my learned colleague's question, to whom Jusuf Prazina

6 was subordinate remained unanswered. Maybe you'll give a reply to this

7 question today.

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I object. The witness

9 yesterday answered that question when I asked him, and I think it will be

10 fair, I do not know what is in the transcript but the witness has answered

11 this. But I did not check the transcript so I cannot say how it was

12 reflected in the transcript. But he answered that question.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, it doesn't matter that the witness answered that

14 question again. So far as I remember, I could not recall any answer from

15 this witness. So I'm interested to hear what the witness is going to tell

16 us.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I believe that Juka

18 Prazina was a kind of a special purpose unit, that was I suppose his

19 condition, to join the HVO units, but I do not know how -- he was quite

20 independent from what I could see.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

22 Q. Would it be correct to say that Juka Prazina unit had the name of

23 Krusko Convicts Battalion unit was subordinate to Mr. Mladen Naletilic?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor -- could the

Page 13114

1 Prosecutor repeat the name of the unit? Because the interpreters could

2 not hear the name of the unit and they told us so. So could the name of

3 the unit be repeated?

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we didn't get it in the transcript.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

6 Q. Krusko Convicts Battalion. K-R-U-S-K-O. I would like the

7 witness to be shown Exhibit 494. Could you read this document?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. This is a request signed by Mr. Andabak over Mladen Naletilic's

10 name, do you agree that it is a request of commander for his subordinate

11 unit to get some military equipment, sorry, to get some telephone

12 connection?

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

14 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the Prosecutor cannot

15 know who is signing something on behalf of whom. He can do it -- only do

16 that if he can show a document but he can not say -- the Prosecutor does

17 not know who signed what on behalf of whom.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, we are not talking about a document

19 at this moment. And we don't have this document at our hands,

20 Mr. Prosecutor, so we are in a disadvantaged position to judge this

21 matter. I did not find that document in that bundle you furnished to us.

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Just a moment. You will have it in a second.

23 The documents were distributed this morning.

24 THE REGISTRAR: You gave me one set this morning.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: All right, Your Honour, I have completed this set

Page 13115

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Page 13116

1 of questions. Maybe it's wise to make a break now. It's time I think.

2 Or maybe I'm wrong.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just for the sake of my

5 conscience, for the record, for fairness, it is not possible to allow

6 three times as much time for the cross-examination as for the direct

7 because I really may not finish by the 15th of July. Your Honours, I

8 examined for 40 minutes and the Prosecutor has been examining for one hour

9 and a half, four times longer than I have. I kept my mouth shut, I kept

10 my mouth shut but I think it's really more than enough.

11 MR. PORIOUVAEV: May I reply?

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I think you've spent 30 minutes

13 on the issues that it seems to us there is no dispute at all between both

14 parties. Could I ask you at this moment how long are you going to take to

15 finish your cross-examination?

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I will need maybe another 30

17 minutes, because the counsel covered in his direct examination questions

18 not indicated in the summaries. That's why I had to make some additional

19 preparations, prepare some additional documents, to contest his

20 allegations. That's the reason why I had to, and I ask you to give me

21 some more time.

22 JUDGE LIU: I understand that at this moment of the

23 cross-examination, you came to the central matters of this case. And I

24 believe that it's very important for us to hear what the witness says

25 about your answer. We will give you another 30 minutes after the break.

Page 13117

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: We will rise until quarter to 11.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, please continue.

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

7 Q. So, witness, my last question was if you know that Juka Prazina

8 unit was subordinate to Convicts Battalion and to Mladen Naletilic as its

9 commander?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I do not know.

11 Q. Okay. You don't know. Let's move to another question. Then you

12 also claimed yesterday that you don't remember if Mr. Naletilic had a

13 pistol about him on the 10th of May, right?

14 A. Right, yes. I am not sure.

15 Q. All right. Is it your testimony that Ludvig Pavlovic unit was

16 involved in military operation in Rastani before the 23rd of September,

17 1993?

18 A. Yes, once.

19 Q. Did you personally participate in this operation?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember the approximate date of that operation?

22 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. It was summer but I couldn't be more precise.

23 Q. Okay. And what were the tasks given to your unit?

24 A. My -- defence lines in Rastani were under threat so our task was

25 to take -- to look after the most vulnerable point, and it was some

Page 13118

1 industrial facility, a silo or something like that.

2 Q. Is it correct that when your unit entered the village, it had

3 already been secured by some other units? I mean HVO units.

4 A. Members of the Mostar Brigade were there. I don't know whether it

5 was the 2nd or the 3rd Brigade which was in that area. And Mr. Stampar, I

6 believe it was, who took us to the line.

7 Q. Were your tasks to replace those units in Rastani?

8 A. My task was first and foremost to secure -- to secure, to guard,

9 that worst, that most sensitive place and members of that brigade were

10 there with me.

11 Q. When you entered the village did you see the houses burned down?

12 A. There were houses which had already burnt down. They were not

13 aflame at the time.

14 Q. Did you see corpses of killed soldiers and civilians in Rastani?

15 A. No. Only far away from the front line we could see in a meadow

16 between houses, we could see somebody lying down.

17 Q. Did you ever get to know that the day before, at least 11

18 civilians had been summarily executed in Rastani?

19 A. Sorry, day before? What day? Day before I got there or -- ?

20 Q. Yes, yes, the day before you entered the village.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik?

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we ask the

23 Prosecutor what is that operation that he's talking about? What is that

24 operation that he has in mind? When was that and what is he examining

25 this witness about? As far as I know, we have the operations on the 23rd

Page 13119

1 of September, according to the indictment, and the Prosecutor says it was

2 in summer. Now, the 23rd of September is definitely not summer. So could

3 we know what the Prosecutor is talking about?

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor would you please clarify this for

5 us?

6 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The witness yesterday claimed that he had never

7 met Convicts Battalion in any military operations. That's the reason of

8 my question. And now I will propose some documents, just to expose my

9 case to this witness. I would like the witness to be shown Exhibits 575,

10 576.

11 Q. These are two orders of a similar content signed by chief of the

12 Main Staff, Zarko Tole and signed for brigadier Miljenko Lasic. Are you

13 familiar with these orders?

14 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor. My orders were different. I received my

15 orders regarding the engagement in Rastani from the Main Staff.

16 Q. But do you see Ludvig Pavlovic unit indicated in these two

17 orders?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. So your position is that it's not true that you were to replace

20 Convicts Battalion and Makini Ljudi units?

21 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I've already told you that I came to replace the

22 2nd Brigade units but not in general, only at the most delicate place. If

23 a maximum of men [as interpreted] from in Bijelo Polje, they were there, I

24 did not see those of the Convicts Battalion, though.

25 Q. All right, witness. Your position is clear to me. My next

Page 13120

1 question will be that is it correct that on the 23rd of September, 1993,

2 you were appointed -- sorry, we should go into private session now.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

9 Q. So were you aware of this document in your position that you

10 occupied at that time? And particularly, that a mop up of the terrain in

11 Golubic was carried out by Tuta ATG unit? And that the operation was

12 successful and there were no losses of the positions on Golubic and they

13 were taken by a group of Vitez, Ranko Boban Brigade and HV Croatian Army?

14 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have never seen this document. I was not aware

15 of this operation. So I can't tell you anything about it.

16 Q. All right. Witness, is it correct that Ludvig Pavlovic,

17 throughout 1993 and afterwards, was a part of the HV, the Croatian Army?

18 A. The Ludvig Pavlovic Battalion was on the strength of the Croatian

19 Defence Council and its members, a number of them, were volunteers of the

20 war in Croatia from its beginning, from 1991.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

22 P261.

23 Q. What are your comments on this document?

24 A. They were sent by Mr. Colonel Ivica Primorac and they were sent to

25 the police administration in Zagreb.

Page 13131

1 Q. I'm asking about the necessity for your soldiers to get the

2 Croatian citizenship because the unit has the status of the unit of the

3 Croatian Army; is that correct?

4 A. Mr. Prosecutor, it says here that they need these documents in

5 order to regulate their status in the Croatian Army. This was done on the

6 12th of March. This document is dated the 12th of March. A number of

7 people in mid-1993 left the Ludvig Pavlovic, the Bosniaks joined the Army

8 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. A smaller number remained with us. And

9 members of the former regiment decided to go back to the Republic of

10 Croatia because those who were volunteers starting with 1991 had

11 certain -- enjoyed certain privileges in the Republic of Croatia.

12 Q. All right. That's quite clear but I will send you just to the

13 beginning, to the second -- just line of the document. "Members of the

14 special purposes unit of the Croatian Army."

15 A. Yes. It is correct. Members -- some, not many of them, some

16 people, wanted to go back to the Republic of Croatia and in order to

17 exercise their privilege of the fighters from the first day. So these

18 privileges were getting an apartment, then retirement, early retirement.

19 Q. I must cut you off because it's clear, but I'm asking you about

20 Ludvig Pavlovic as a unit of the Croatian Army, as stated in this

21 document.

22 A. Mr. Prosecutor, we were not a unit of the Croatian Army. We never

23 received any combat order or any other order for that matter from them.

24 Q. I would like the usher to show the witness Exhibit 3 -- 433.1.

25 The document issued in June, 1993, and it deals with one of the members of

Page 13132

1 the unit, unit, who is a member of a unit with status of independent

2 battalion of the Croatian Army, and this document, as it follows from

3 it -- from its text was born within your unit. Is it correct?

4 A. Yes, Mr. Prosecutor. According to the memorandum on the

5 appearance and the seal of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, it does

6 derive from my -- it does originate from my unit.

7 Q. Okay. Let's pass on to document 718.1. This is a list of

8 commissioned and non-commissioned HV officers. The document issued in

9 December, 1993. In the first table, there are -- in the first list,

10 sorry, there are eight -- 18 names. In the second, 46 names, right? And

11 now I would like the Trial Chamber to move to a private session for some

12 minutes.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session, please.

14 [Private session]

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Page 13137

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not know any more

3 what strength we have, what strength I have to invest into my objections,

4 especially to the last one by the learned friend Mr. Scott, because all my

5 time was always counted in. Of course, the Honourable Court can always

6 intervene during the examination by either side, and are we now to count

7 the time down to a minute? Your Honours, I examined for 40 minutes. Look

8 now at the time. It is half past 11.00. I've lost it. I meant to finish

9 another witness today. And start with a third one. I do not know how

10 this will proceed. Your Honours, perhaps today I will give it a thought

11 and see whether it serves any purpose because I bring a fact witness and

12 then for two hours we listen to whatever the Prosecutors wish to do,

13 bringing heaps of these papers, because these are just papers, and we had

14 to wait until they think they've satisfied whatever they were pursuing.

15 Now, the examination you forget that it started yesterday, and that the

16 Prosecutor spent 15 or 20 minutes yesterday, and now from 9.00 until half

17 past 11.00, so let us calculate all the time that we spent. It is five or

18 six times longer than I used for my direct examination. Sorry.

19 And moreover, why doesn't the Honourable Court prohibit all the

20 irrelevant questions rather than have the Prosecutor spend two hours on

21 some irrelevant matters to come to something which is relevant? And then

22 again time is wasted. And I really don't know where all this is leading.

23 I do not think that this is correct. At least in my book. I know that

24 you're trying your best and that you are showing a lot of understand and

25 wisdom. You have given ample demonstration of that so far. But please, I

Page 13138

1 am really most vehemently objecting because according to me, it is not

2 fair, it is not just, and I'm sure I wouldn't be allowed and you didn't

3 allow me during my cross-examination to do what is being done now.

4 Thank you very much for giving me the floor.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecution, try to wind up your cross-examination

6 as soon as possible.

7 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

8 Q. So, Witness, you have Exhibit 7440.2 in front of you, right?

9 Take a look at the letterhead, in the left side, upper corner. Please

10 would you read it?

11 A. "Croatian Army, Split military district, 60th" not the 16th but

12 the 60th Battalion, Ludvig Pavlovic.

13 Q. So what --

14 A. Reference number Vrgorac 12th January, 1994, reference,

15 certificate.

16 Q. No need to read it further. What are your comments? Was your

17 unit a part of the Croatian Army at that time?

18 A. Your Honours, allow me to explain it more extensively. Perhaps I

19 might be on the right track to find some solution to this and to cut all

20 this short.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. This is an important issue. You may make your

22 explanations to this Court.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.

24 But let me answer the Prosecutor first. This is not my signature. The

25 stamp and all the rest that you have here.

Page 13139

1 Your Honours, when the members of the Ludvig Pavlovic who were in

2 the Croatian Army voiced their wish to return to Croatia because a number

3 of them had been born there, they had no other possibility to exercise

4 their rights because the General Daidza had disbanded the volunteer

5 regiment Kralj Tomislav. The principal act that needs to be, should

6 somebody, so that he can exercise his rights is an acts on the membership

7 and the time served with a particular unit. General Daidza made this

8 seal, and you see that Vrgorac was the head quarters of the volunteer

9 regiment and it is made that it is also the seat of the 60th Battalion,

10 Ludvig Pavlovic. He told me about this and I was aware of the existence

11 of this, and through this, he issued documents to those who had to resolve

12 their status. Personally, this Ivica Zeljko or Zeljko, I do not know, he

13 was never in my unit. So that if we want to say that we were not members

14 of the Croatian Army, because had I been one, if I were attached to the

15 Main Staff of the Croat Defence Council, then it could take a month or

16 two, but there was no way in which it could last five years. I suppose

17 that the Prosecutor will have more such papers, but I tried in this way to

18 tell you whence this unit.

19 Thank you, Your Honours.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit

21 761.1.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.

23 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

24 Q. Was this letter signed by you? Is it your signature?

25 A. Yes.

Page 13140

1 Q. Do you -- take a look at the letterhead again.

2 A. That was the first thing I read.

3 Q. But is it your signature?

4 A. Yes. I told you so.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... sorry. Did you send this

6 letter to Mr. Bobetko?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, do you really believe that I could communicate

8 with General Bobetko at that time?

9 Q. Do you mean this letter is forged?

10 A. No. This is an original document, except that it was taken to

11 Zagreb by General Daidza and I have to explain it to you. General Daidza

12 was the first legendary hero of the war, and he had doors wide open to

13 President Tudjman or wherever.

14 Q. Is it correct that in this letter, you request the general staff

15 of the Croatian Army to pay salaries to your soldiers from the funds of

16 the Croatian Army?

17 A. We complained because in the HVO, our salaries were lower than the

18 salaries in the Croatian Army, but the HVO had less funds, and the most

19 important thing, and most important thing is that salaries were always

20 overdue in the Croat Defence Council. We did get our salaries from the

21 HVO.

22 Q. Why did you ask for salaries from HV? From the army of

23 independent state which had nothing to do, as you claim, with your country

24 and your military forces?

25 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I think that at about this time, the Washington

Page 13141

1 Agreement was signed. We wanted on the basis of the status that we

2 enjoyed before, we wanted to try to get our salaries from Croatia, because

3 it was a better regulated state and it had higher salaries. However, that

4 was not done.

5 Q. But, Witness, Germany was far more better regulated state. Why

6 didn't you address Germany for salary then, if you follow your logic?

7 A. Because I did not fight in the German army or for the German

8 state.

9 Q. But did you fight for the Croatian Army, for the Republic of

10 Croatia?

11 A. I personally, a little less so, but some of my members were in the

12 Croatian Army from 1991, and they were at the worst fronts, from Cepikuce,

13 to Pakrac, Lipik, everywhere, and they are still -- and they are still

14 top guys who are in the street. Had we got this from the Croatian Army,

15 they would be getting some money now, wouldn't have to do all sorts of odd

16 jobs.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, at this point, I must just to wind

18 up and I will ask some more questions but we should go into private

19 session now.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to the private session.

21 [Private session]

22 [redacted]

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20 [Open session]

21 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I merely like to take

22 the numbers of all the documents I want to use. I believe it will speed

23 matters up.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, why don't we break here and give you

25 more time to sort out all those documents and furnish that list to the

Page 13145

1 Registrar so that they could be prepared?

2 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour. I agree.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So we'll resume at 20 past 12.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 11.52 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 12.21 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric?

7 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President. I

8 did not want to waste your time during the cross-examination, and in

9 Mr. Krsnik objected whenever it was necessary, but it is my duty to my

10 client and the record of this main hearing, it is my duty to say that

11 Mr. Krsnik is quite right when he objected insistently against the

12 duration of the cross-examination. This Defence was not allowed by the

13 Chamber to go beyond the time of the direct examination, in our

14 cross-examination. And we were being interrupted and told that we had

15 already heard answers during the direct examination, whereas the

16 Prosecutor does it all the time and we spend 45 minutes to one hour

17 repeating questions, the answers to which we have already heard during the

18 direct examination, thank you very much.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Scott?

20 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, I'm primarily address other things,

21 but just a brief response, both to Mr. Seric and to similar points that

22 have been raised by Mr. Krsnik before. Your Honour, I think the record

23 will show in this case, I'm quite confident respectfully, I submitted, the

24 record it in case will show quite clearly that there was full and

25 extensive cross-examination by the Defence in the Prosecution case. I

Page 13146

1 think the Chamber will remember collectively that the three of you,

2 that the cross-examination of a number of Prosecution witnesses went on

3 for at substantial length and again, I'm confident that full and fair

4 cross-examination was afforded to counsel.

5 Mr. President, on another matter, in terms of the motion filed by

6 the Naletilic Defence which was raised with the Chamber this morning I

7 indicated we would look at it. We have done so, Your Honour, and I am

8 prepared to make an oral response which hopefully will both frame the

9 matter a bit more quickly and perhaps at least save a page or two of

10 paper. What I understand the proposal to be, and for the record I'm

11 looking at the motion of the Naletilic Defence dated the 27th of June,

12 submission concerning the schedule for finalising his case and

13 commencement of the Martinovic Defence case, I've read the motion, I've

14 also discussed it with Mr. Meek. Let me state what I think I understand

15 it is so that I can decide it's clear what the Prosecution is agreeing to.

16 The proposal is that there are six additional witnesses that will be

17 called by the Naletilic Defence following the completion of the witnesses

18 next week. My understanding that the remaining witnesses between now and

19 next week or -- are a couple of fact witnesses and the last two witnesses

20 will be two expert witnesses.

21 It's my understanding from this submission and from Mr. Meek that

22 following those witnesses, these six witnesses plus [redacted] will be the

23 only, excuse me?

24 Let's go to private session, please.

25 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to private session.

Page 13147

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11 [Open session]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Supreme Commander was a

13 political figure. Defence department was also headed by a political

14 figure. The head of the Main Staff was the Chief of the Main Staff, and

15 for a while, the Main Staff also had a commander in addition to the

16 chief. Under the Main Staff, he was in charge of operations and in charge

17 of units for special purposes and professional units. As well as the

18 units assigned to the Main Staff, which were mostly units for support and

19 logistics.

20 The Main Staff was directly in charge of the commands of the

21 operation areas, or operation zones. Operation zones commanded units in

22 their respective areas, and within that frame were ATGs with a lesser

23 strength. Units of local character, which were not intended for

24 maneuvers or not intended to leave their areas. I explained units for

25 special purposes and ATGs -- and professional units yesterday.

Page 13155

1 Q. Can you please briefly repeat that?

2 A. During 1992, there were four. The Ante Bruno Busic regiment, the

3 Ludvig Pavlovic, the Baja Kraljevic ATG, and the Convicts Battalion.

4 Later on, in 1992, part of the Convicts Battalion was transferred and

5 became an ATG. And part of it remained and was resubordinated to the

6 Siroki Brijeg Brigade. There were other professional units but those were

7 in Central Bosnia. Their commanders, however, were in -- on the ground,

8 as well as the commanders of ATGs.

9 Q. And now can I kindly ask you, let's take the Rastani theatre.

10 Where would Rastani belong, to which operation zone, and who was the

11 commander of the Rastani theatre? And what was his relation to the Ludvig

12 Pavlovic Battalion? Can you explain on this example to the Chamber, the

13 chain of command?

14 A. The Rastani theatre of war was within the operation zone Mostar.

15 The operation zone Mostar had several sectors. Rastani belonged to the

16 sector north. The commander at the time was Mr. Stampar. When the times

17 were critical for him, he would turn to the commander of the operation

18 zone, the operation zone would turn to the Main Staff, and if the Main

19 Staff made a decision to engage any of the units, then the Main Staff

20 would issue an order and send it to that particular zone.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Prosecutor?

22 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have to object. It seems to me that it's not

23 re-examination, but a new direct examination.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, in this sense, I could not agree with you. I

25 think it's a kind of clarification of the points raised by you during your

Page 13156

1 cross-examination. We will allow the Defence counsel to continue to see

2 where he is going to lead us.

3 [redacted]

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6 [redacted]

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22 [redacted]

23 A. No. Such practice did not exist. When I arrived, I was not

24 familiar with the general front line. I was responsible for carrying out

25 the task that I was given. But not for the execution of the task given to

Page 13157

1 the entire sector. For the execution -- the commander of that sector was

2 responsible for the execution of the task given to the entire sector.

3 Q. And my final question: Was the practice the same for all

4 operation zones when professional units or ATGs were sent to any of them?

5 A. I can say that this was so in these three operation zones, because

6 I was sent there. I was never sent to Orasje.

7 Q. Orasje is in Northern Bosnia or Posavina, isn't it?

8 A. Yes, it is Posavina.

9 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. I would kindly ask the usher

10 to give you Exhibit number P260.1. Sorry, P206.1. Can you please read

11 the date in the left, upper corner?

12 A. The date is 31 December, 1992.

13 Q. Tell us what the title of this document is? I apologise for

14 asking you to read.

15 A. "Report on the situation in the professional structure of the

16 HVO."

17 Q. And who was this report submitted to?

18 A. It was sent to the head of the Defence department, Mr. Bruno

19 Stojic, to the head of the Main Staff of the HVO, Brigadier Milivoj

20 Petkovic.

21 Q. Can you please look at the second page and tell us who sent this

22 document to them?

23 A. It was sent by the assistant Chief of the Main Staff of the HVO

24 for the professional army, Colonel Ivica Primorac.

25 Q. The same gentleman whom you have mentioned in -- on both direct

Page 13158

1 and cross-examination?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you please look at items 4 and 5? Which units are these and

4 who is indicated as their commanders?

5 A. Under 4, the Baja Kraljevic ATG, commander Predrag Mandic. Number

6 5, the Convicts Battalion, commander Mario Hrkac.

7 Q. Was Mr. Mario Hrkac's nickname Cikota?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you please turn to page number 2 and read items C and D?

10 A. "C, the Convicts Battalion Mostar Heliodrom is a unit which gave a

11 maximum contribution to the liberation of Mostar, is also ready to execute

12 the most difficult tasks at any given time".

13 MR. PORIOUVAEV: [Previous translation continues] ... the parties

14 should not read the documents in the courtroom.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, no, I don't think we have made that decision,

16 about but in this case it's indeed, Mr. Krsnik, there is no need for the

17 witness to read the document, since everybody has one at their hands. So

18 just draw our attention to certain paragraphs.

19 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Now let's move on to item D. You don't have to read. Do you --

21 can you see what it says under item D?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us whether the Convicts Battalion was ever located in

24 the Heliodrom, to your knowledge, or if not, who was it that was located

25 in the Heliodrom in 1992? I mean the professional unit.

Page 13159

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Page 13160

1 A. According to my knowledge, it was the Baja Kraljevic ATG that was

2 stationed in the Heliodrom.

3 Q. And to your knowledge, where was the Convicts Battalion situated?

4 A. The Convicts Battalion was in Siroki Brijeg.

5 Q. According to your personal knowledge, does this reflect the truth,

6 what it says here in this document?

7 A. According to what I know, what I heard from the late Mario Cikota,

8 this does not reflect the truth: The Convicts Battalion was not in

9 Mostar.

10 Q. And the rest of the document? Who was the commander of the two

11 units? Were these two different units, the Convicts Battalion and the

12 Baja Kraljevic? Were these two different units? Were they -- their

13 commanders different people?

14 A. I believe that the commander of the Convicts Battalion was

15 Mr. Ivan Andabak and that Mario Hrkac was in charge of operations, that he

16 was the one who was dealing with the operative matters. The Baja

17 Kraljevic ATG, I don't know who the commander was, whether it was Predrag

18 Mandic or Stanko Sopta.

19 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 3. Under item 4, it says, "PPN, the

20 Convicts Battalion." Does the number of men reflect the truth?

21 A. I must admit that I really don't know.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Now can we have Exhibit P261? P261.

23 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what Domovnica is and what -- why do you

24 have to have a Domovnica in order to obtain what things?

25 A. The Domovnica is the basic piece of document in the Republic of

Page 13161

1 Croatia serving to prove that you are a citizen of the Republic of

2 Croatia.

3 Q. So in order to obtain the citizenship of the Republic of Croatia,

4 you first have to have the right to have a Domovnica; is that correct?

5 A. In order to deal with all your requirements, whatever you needed

6 in the Republic of Croatia, you have to have a Domovnica.

7 Q. So in order to prove that you are a citizen of Croatia, would you

8 say that the Domovnica is the necessary -- the only necessary

9 prerequisite?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does it -- doesn't it say clearly in this document that people who

12 are asking for Domovnica are not the citizens of the Republic of Croatia

13 and that they are asking for a Domovnica?

14 JUDGE CLARK: That's the best [RealTime transcript read in error

15 "first"] example of the wrong way to pose a question so far.

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: It was not allowed even at school.

17 JUDGE CLARK: The transcript should read, "The best example."

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, this is not my first

19 mistake today. I have made another mistake in my re-examination. I am

20 going to find it very difficult to correct that mistake, however. The

21 witness is tired, I am tired, I would like to finish this examination. I

22 have quite a number of questions.

23 Q. What I wanted to ask you is this: I don't know how to ask you.

24 The document speaks for itself, I believe, so I will -- I guess I'll have

25 to move on.

Page 13162

1 Why do these people ask to be issued Domovnica? Is that now a

2 better question?

3 A. They are applying for Domovnica to -- in order to be entitled to

4 the Croatian nationality.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Let's move on. P365.1. Will you now please

6 have a good look at this signature, at the signature only, and tell us if

7 it says anything, who signed this? I mean this typed thing. And then

8 look at the signature and tell us what is this title here, the one that is

9 indicated in the signature?

10 A. Here, in front of chief "natalica" [phoen], there are two letters,

11 Z-A, which mean "for." And then it is added the word "natalica" [phoen],

12 there is a letter "A" added as a suffix which means "for the Chief of the

13 Main Staff of the Croat Defence Council."

14 Q. And whose name figures in the typed signature?

15 A. Major General Milivoj Petkovic.

16 Q. And can you read this handwritten, this writing?

17 A. No. It looks like Ivica but I'm not sure.

18 Q. Will you go back it 206.1 and look at the signature there? I

19 believe you have this document, that it has not been taken away from you.

20 We have it here, I believe you still have it with you. 261. You still

21 have 261 with you? 261? The one that I asked you about Domovnica. Will

22 you please compare these two signatures, the one that I just gave you.

23 Are these three signatures -- can you read them -- can you read them?

24 A. Yes, it's the same signature. It's the same signature as on the

25 report on the situation in the professional troops.

Page 13163

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Page 13164

1 Q. And this one on Domovnica 261, 206, no, 216, I'm sorry, 261,

2 you're very quick. You remove documents very quickly, sorry.

3 A. Yes, yes. It is Ivica Primorac's signature. He signed on behalf

4 of the Chief of the Main Staff of the HVO.

5 Q. Could he do that?

6 A. He could do it, but in that case, it wasn't the proper order which

7 one was duty-bound to comply with.

8 Q. Right. Let's move on. Document 370.1, P370.1. The second

9 passage which says the HVO has three special operations units, Tuta unit,

10 which is dependent directly on Lasic, which might that "PB," the special

11 unit on the 7th of May, 1993.

12 A. I do not know which unit they have in mind, unless it is Baja

13 Kraljevic, because there were very many former members of the Convicts

14 Battalion who -- and then some people still called them Tutici, Tuta's

15 boys, they disagreed with that but at times we were called for instance at

16 the time when we were with Daidza we were called Daidza's boys.

17 Q. You testified for me yesterday, so I will ask you once again now

18 on the 7th of May, 1993, did Mr. Naletilic have any command position in

19 the HVO?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let's move on. Document 374, please only one question because

22 these are SpaBat reports. Did you see a single SFOR or whatever it was

23 called, UNPROFOR soldier in Mostar on the 9th or the 10th?

24 A. I did not see anyone at the place where I was.

25 Q. Tell us how could he know who was firing from where unless they

Page 13165

1 were on the scene?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes?

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Calls for speculation.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik, it's really speculation. Please

5 remember, this is your re-examination. It's not your -- another chance

6 for the direct examination.

7 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am not examining on

8 the basis of these documents but all the documents were produced by the

9 Prosecutor, and I am following these documents and I'm requiring -- I'm

10 requesting additional information from -- regarding these documents which

11 were produced by the Prosecution. Perhaps the Prosecution is not

12 interested in that but I am because I want to know the truth. I agree

13 that this is speculation and of course what it says in here is also

14 speculation.

15 Q. Now -- now document 376.1. Sorry, 376.1. I'm sorry, witness,

16 that I keep you so long but there are certain things that I'd like to

17 clarify. All I want to know is who signed this. Will you please read

18 like in that other document?

19 A. This document was signed by somebody on behalf of the commander,

20 Miljenko Lasic because it says, "For" Z-A, for the commander.

21 Q. Can you read it have a good look?

22 A. I believe the signature was Petar Zelenika.

23 Q. And who was that commander? Would he sign it at the time? Look

24 at the date.

25 A. I think he could not do it.

Page 13166

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I think the name Zelenika was

2 not mentioned during the cross-examination and again, it's pure

3 speculation.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Krsnik, I believe that it is speculation.

5 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, with all due

6 respect, I do not allow -- I apologise but do not allow the Prosecutor to

7 do to me, I won't say what. Your Honours, I see what it says here. I can

8 read it. It's in the Croatian language. I see the signature. I'm not a

9 fool. I'm asking the witness whether he knows who Petar Zelenika is.

10 Q. Do you know Petar Zelenika?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Do you know what duty he -- what post he held on the 9th of May,

13 1993?

14 A. I don't know exactly what post he held but I do not think that he

15 could sign on behalf of Brigadier Lasic because there was also Stanko, I

16 don't know what his last name is, Stanko Puljic who came right next after

17 Miljenko Lasic.

18 Q. Now, please tell me, this is the personal signature. Read in your

19 Croatian language what you can, what does this handwritten signature, this

20 own signature, what does it say?

21 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, is this the right witness to be asking

22 this? Isn't the person coming next week who we can ask? So why are you

23 asking this witness to talk about something that he can only speculate

24 about? I can ask my secretary to sign letters. If my secretary is on

25 holidays I can ask a stand-in for a day to sign letters. And so can you.

Page 13167

1 I mean, the appropriate person to ask is either the person who signed the

2 letter or the person who gave authority to sign the letter, not this

3 witness.

4 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're absolutely

5 right. All I want, because any Irishman -- I apologise. I believe any

6 Irish man would be able to read your signature if it were as legible as

7 this one and I ask the witness to read what was written here. Secondly,

8 Your Honour, this witness is qualified to a say that because orders are

9 issued to him by Mr. Lasic and he must know who is authorised to sign

10 orders because he must know who issues the orders, and he's been

11 testifying for two days about that, so if somebody had to know that then

12 it is this witness. Am I not right when I say that?

13 A. I've just said that this order was ridiculous, that it could not

14 be a serious order.

15 Q. And that is why I asked you in redirect because that was what you

16 said to the Prosecutor. Let's move on. Could we have document P564.1?

17 I'm interested only in item 2 of this document. The Prosecutor asked you

18 questions about that. And my question to you is: According to your

19 personal knowledge, and in particular since you were assistant to the

20 chief of the Main Staff for professional units, was there a Tuta ATG?

21 A. No. In the official documents there was never mention of Tuta

22 ATG. There was the Convicts Battalion, there was the Convicts Battalion,

23 but the ATG, no Tuta ATG existed.

24 Q. And tell me, will you turn to page 2? If you know, and it says

25 commander of the Main Staff of the HVO, and should be the man issuing

Page 13168

1 orders to you. Is this General Slobodan Praljak's signature?

2 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The author of this signature gave his testimony

5 in this courtroom, and he acknowledged his signature. The document was

6 admitted.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We could compare the signature of this document

8 with others.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] That is not true. That is not true,

10 Your Honours. How can such things be said in this courtroom? Mr. General

11 Praljak never said it was his signature and that's what this is all

12 about. And think I thank God there are transcripts, and I objected to

13 this document, if you remember, these are my objections, because two years

14 ago, we were given only this page of the order, and then in the

15 cross-examination, all of a sudden, the second page turned up and the

16 Prosecution alleges that it is part of page 1, but it turned up only

17 during the cross-examination, and a year ago, when we received this first

18 page, it only said end of document. And I have it all.

19 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, let's just shorten it. What does the

20 witness say? Is that General Praljak's signature or not?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am really not an expert witness.

22 I cannot resolve this. What I could say is that this isn't the general's

23 signature but on the other hand, it could be. I'd say it isn't.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Certainly hedging your bets on this one, whereas you

25 were quite happy to identify signatures on others, but we can pass on and

Page 13169

1 we will take on board what you all say.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm sorry, I'm not

3 trying to evade answering. What I'm saying that it looks like but it on

4 the other hand, it doesn't look like the signature, the general's

5 signature, which I saw when he signed but then again I'm no expert.

6 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Please, P576, very briefly.

7 Q. The same subject, look at what the heading says, who is the

8 commander of the operative zone and what does it say?

9 A. Once again, the order is issued on behalf of, for.

10 Q. Can you tell us whose signature it is?

11 A. No, I don't know whose signature this is.

12 Q. My question in principle, when such orders are issued on the front

13 lines, who is authorised to sign them, from what you know?

14 A. The commander is authorised to sign them. But I'm telling you

15 that I never saw this order.

16 Q. Now document P718.1. Tell me, please, people who were with the

17 Croatian Army in 1991 and 1992, could they exercise their rights in the

18 Croatian Army deriving from that? For instance, were they entitled to

19 health care, to ranks, to pensions?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now I'm asking you, I'm not asking about others. Did you also get

22 or could you also exercise your right to a rank in the Croatian Army?

23 A. I did not. I did not apply for it.

24 Q. Do you know from your own knowledge whether somebody else applied

25 for it and got a rank?

Page 13170

1 A. I know that somebody did apply and they got their ranks. But they

2 would immediately be transferred to the reserve force, and in case of war,

3 that rank could be reactivated and could become active duty but in

4 principle it is a reserve rank.

5 Q. Sir, you are a trained soldier, so let us please try to resolve a

6 dilemma. Please help us. What -- those ranks in the HVO, what about

7 them? I'm interested in 1992, 1993. Did you have any ranks or not?

8 When, how? And if you got any ranks, when did you get those ranks and

9 how?

10 A. Counsel, in 1991, in Croatia, in 1992, in Herceg-Bosna, when we

11 arrived in the HVO, there were no ranks. There were formation duties

12 but -- posts.

13 Q. Please, explain it to us because we are all laymen? What does

14 that mean? What does that mean, formation posts?

15 A. It means somebody was a commander of a battalion, that would mean

16 either a major or a colonel, it would correspond to this but there were no

17 ranks, although some people addressed those men on the basis of the duties

18 they performed. Sorry, somebody commanded a battalion he would be

19 addressed as a major, of a brigade, brigadier or colonel, and at a lower

20 level, people would say sergeant, staff sergeant.

21 Q. But to make a rank a rank, what is the procedure, please, and when

22 did you get your ranks in the HVO?

23 A. The procedure to get a rank is that the superior command makes

24 such a proposal. In my case, it is the Main Staff. And on the basis,

25 pursuant to this proposal, one gets a rank, depending on the level of that

Page 13171

1 rank, it is signed either by the Supreme Commander for the highest ranks,

2 colonels, brigadiers and generals, and at a lower level, Minister of

3 Defence or chief of the department, head of the department.

4 Q. Must these ranks be published in the Official Gazette, in Narodne

5 Novine, the Official Gazette which carries all the laws?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So the Official Gazette carries the decree on the rank and only

8 then, that is eight days later that becomes a valid and final rank, is

9 that so?

10 A. I don't know what -- when it comes into effect but definitely

11 after it has been published by Narodne Novine.

12 Q. And when was this procedure introduced?

13 A. This procedure was introduced sometime in 1993, I believe, no I'm

14 not quite sure, I told you with dates, you know, don't ask me.

15 Q. But would you know was it the -- in late 1993 or in mid-1993,

16 early?

17 A. I'd say it was the latter half but I'm not sure.

18 Q. All right. Let's move to Exhibit P740.2. Please I saw something

19 added by hand, so I wanted to ask you about that, but I'll ask something

20 else. It says here in the lower right-hand bottom of the document, what

21 does it say?

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 13172

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Page 13173

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [Private session]

5 [redacted]

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Page 13174

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7 [Open session]

8 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Since Her Honour Judge Clark has warned me and I did make a

10 mistake when I intervened, I should not have done that, now I don't

11 know how to put this question to you. I have been thinking long and hard

12 on how to put this question, and I think that this will be a fair way to

13 ask you: Yesterday, on direct, when I asked you whether there were

14 Croatian Army units in Mostar from the Republic of Croatia, at the time,

15 you said that there were -- that there weren't. And now I'm asking you:

16 At that time, in Mostar, do you have any personal knowledge of the

17 Croatian Army, from the Republic of Croatia, being in the area of

18 Herzegovina or Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. Counsel, there were no Croatian Army units in Herzegovina. There

20 was a number of soldiers who had been in the Croatian Army during the war

21 and who came to fight and defend Herzegovina and Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

23 questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Clark?

25 Questioned by the Court:

Page 13175

1 JUDGE CLARK: I have three areas of questions and I hope I don't

2 take long with them. Can I ask you, Witness, we have to go into private

3 session for this.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

5 [Private session]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

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15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [Open session]

19 JUDGE CLARK: In total, how much time did you and your unit spend

20 on active duty in Mostar during the period of the conflict between the

21 Muslims and the Croats?

22 A. Your Honour, we were in Mostar three times, but every time it was

23 two to three days. We would only intervene at the most critical moments.

24 Then we would pull out and other units would arrive.

25 JUDGE CLARK: And can I take it that as soon as you performed your

Page 13176

1 critical duty and left, you went to another theatre of conflict? You left

2 the Mostar region?

3 A. Wherever we were, we would carry out our task and we would return

4 to either our base or to some other place, but there were some areas where

5 we stayed longer. When there was not enough troops to hold certain lines

6 reached, with that, I mean home guard units, then it would be our task to

7 hold these lines.

8 JUDGE CLARK: I'm trying to rush you through because of the time

9 constraints. So can I take it that you really spent at the very most

10 maybe six to nine days in the Mostar municipality? Just answer me yes or

11 no.

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE CLARK: In that six or nine days, did you only meet

14 Mr. Naletilic once?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE CLARK: How do you know what his position in the HVO was,

17 then?

18 A. I met Mr. Naletilic in April, 1992. And I knew he was the

19 commander of the Convicts Battalion. And later on --

20 JUDGE CLARK: Go ahead, I'm very conscious of the time.

21 A. And later on, I'm sorry, I apologise.

22 JUDGE CLARK: You see, witness, I thought you said that you met

23 Mr. Naletilic for the first time on the 9th or 10th of May in Mostar. I

24 thought that's what you said. Now you say you met him in 1992. But,

25 however, we will move on from that. We can check the transcript. The

Page 13177

1 other question I want to ask you about is if we go back to the conflict in

2 Mostar on the 9th and 10th of May, you mentioned that after the surrender

3 of the people in the Vranica building, that you went in there and you

4 conducted a search. Were you with other people in carrying out this

5 search of the building? Again short answers.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE CLARK: About how many of you would have conducted this

8 search?

9 A. Some 20 of us.

10 JUDGE CLARK: Very good. Did you particularly conduct a search of

11 the offices of the headquarters of the ABiH?

12 A. Yes. The basement offices which housed the headquarters of the

13 4th Corps.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. Was it

15 the basement? And were you in charge of that search? Because obviously

16 it was an important one.

17 A. Yes.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Can you tell me were there many documents taken and

19 also while you're considering that, was there any evidence that any

20 documents had either been removed or destroyed by the previous occupants

21 of the basement?

22 A. We found a lot of documents but there were also traces that a lot

23 of them had been destroyed. There were traces of ashes.

24 JUDGE CLARK: And can you say approximately how many boxes, were

25 there two or three boxes of documents or dozens of boxes?

Page 13178

1 A. Can I use this desk as an illustration?

2 JUDGE CLARK: Yes.

3 A. It would probably be half full. There were some maps and other

4 things, of course.

5 JUDGE CLARK: Now, can you answer a question for me as a

6 professional military plan? And we've had very, very few so far. Was --

7 as far as you know, did the Convicts Battalion have a special purpose unit

8 or was it a special purpose unit? Because it's not clear and it's

9 probably a matter of translation. In other words the Convicts Battalion

10 was a battalion as such, was it one that had included it in a special

11 purpose unit or was the whole battalion a special purpose unit?

12 A. The Convicts Battalion was a special battalion but it has never

13 reached its full combat strength.

14 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. And then finally, there is one question

15 in relation to General Bobetko, and you as a senior officer said that or

16 suggested that you wouldn't dare to write General Bobetko directly. What

17 was his position at the end of 1993, 1994, in the Croatian Army? What was

18 his standing?

19 A. Your Honour, according to the document that I read, he was the

20 Chief of the Main Staff of the Croatian Army. At the time, I was not even

21 close to the rank of a general.

22 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you very much. Your answers have been

23 extremely helpful.

24 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges' questions? I see none.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much.

Page 13179

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Just one

3 Further examination by Mr. Krsnik:

4 Q. Among those documents did you personally see some sort of

5 certificates from -- or thank you notes from Mr. Pasalic and what did

6 these thank you notes refer to?

7 JUDGE CLARK: That does not arise out of my questions. If I had

8 referred to the contents of the documents, maybe.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The

10 Hague to give the evidence, which is a great help to us. When the usher

11 pulls down the blinds, she will take you out of the room. We all wish you

12 a pleasant journey back home.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE LIU: As for the documents, I understand that both parties

15 have some documents to tender, and as well as some objections to the

16 documents tendered by the other party. I wish that you could submit your

17 written submissions in a few days. Since we are under the time pressure,

18 I think we have to break at this time.

19 [The witness withdrew]

20 JUDGE LIU: Madam Registrar, are we going to sit in Courtroom II

21 tomorrow?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: So we will resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning in

24 Courtroom II.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

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1 1.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

2 the 28th day of June, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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