Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15376

1 Wednesday, 11 September 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-98-34-T, the Prosecutor versus Naletilic and Martinovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And I notice Mr. Naletilic is absent. Is

9 he still in illness?

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes.

11 He is in the Detention Unit. He is still unwell, but we can continue

12 without him.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

14 Could we have the witness, please. Madam Usher, would you please

15 bring the witness in.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shalom, my respects to all of you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down.

22 Yes, Mr. Seric. Your re-examination, please.

23 WITNESS: ZORAN MANDELBAUM [Resumed]

24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

Page 15377

1 Re-examined by Mr. Seric:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mandelbaum.

3 A. Good afternoon.

4 Q. Mr. Mandelbaum, undoubtedly, as we heard yesterday, you're a man

5 of huge experience, especially that acquired during the war, and a man who

6 no doubt made an immense humanitarian contribution for the sake and

7 benefit of all, of people of all faith and ethnic groups in Mostar, and I

8 am sure that you could tell us a great deal, much more than the testimony

9 here could allow it, to tell us about your life experience in Mostar and

10 outside. But now, I would nevertheless ask you to try to listen carefully

11 to my questions, to try to be as concise as possible, in order to avoid

12 any misunderstanding and to have it recorded in the transcript as

13 precisely as possible. So wait for me to finish. I'll make a sign

14 when I've done so and then you can begin your answer.

15 Mr. Mandelbaum, can you tell this Court, and all of us, with

16 regard to the permits to leave the town, I mean the town of Mostar, who is

17 it that you went to? Give us, please, only the names. And by this I mean

18 the time between -- from 9th of May, 1993 onward.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I object, Your Honour. It is not stemming from

21 the cross-examination.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. I don't think this question was asked

23 in the cross-examination.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is not true.

25 Mr. Poriouvaev examined the witness about the facts concerning his

Page 15378

1 humanitarian activity, crossings from the east to the west side of the

2 town, he examined him about the methods, and all these things. Yesterday

3 a certain confusion in the transcript occurred. Many names are incorrect

4 and were not recorded. I am not repeating my question from the direct

5 examination; I'm merely following up on my learned friend's question, and

6 I insist on it. Only names. But please give them slowly and precisely,

7 and I want the witness to follow the transcript and to spell out all those

8 names.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. [Microphone not activated] ... testimony

10 of the witness we missed certain names in the transcript. In this sense,

11 Mr. Seric, you are allowed to ask this question, but only limited to those

12 names.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes. That is what I had in mind,

14 Mr. President. Thank you.

15 Q. So let me repeat the question. For the permits to leave the town,

16 give us their names of people that you went to.

17 A. Mr. Berislav Pusic, called Berko.

18 Q. Just go -- take it easy and follow it.

19 A. Head of the department for the exchange of prisoners and

20 detainees. Mr. Slobodan Bozic, head of the department for cooperation

21 with UNPROFOR and international organisations.

22 Q. Very well.

23 A. Perica -- Mr. Perica Jukic, Minister of Defence of Herceg-Bosna.

24 In his presence, General -- General Ante Roso was always with him. These

25 are people on the Croat side.

Page 15379

1 As for the Bosniak side, the permits were issued by Mr. Rusmir

2 Cisic, Mr. Smail Klaric, Mr. Orucevic, orally. These are the people

3 who were in charge of these permits.

4 Q. Thank you very much. My next question, Mr. Mandelbaum, is: When

5 you visited the Heliodrom, did you -- or rather, whom would you approach

6 to gain entrance? Again, full names, please.

7 A. The first time I went into the Heliodrom with Mr. Petar Pehar,

8 Perisa. He is from Citluk - I do not know what office he held - with a

9 view to exchanging a Bosniak who was at the Heliodrom.

10 Q. Do you know any other name?

11 A. No, I don't. At the Heliodrom, after that, I entered the

12 Heliodrom by going to the gate and introducing myself to the guards, and

13 they would let me in.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Next question. I know that you often help

15 detained Muslims to leave the Heliodrom, which Vinko Martinovic couldn't

16 do. Who is it that you went to at that time to get those prisoners

17 released? Will you tell this Court: Whom did you speak to? I'm talking

18 about May and June 1993.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Poriouvaev.

20 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it has gone beyond the first

21 question allowed by you, I would suggest.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Seric. You have to limit your question

23 within the framework of the cross-examination.

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the reason is -- for my

25 question is the same, what Mr. Poriouvaev asked questions about.

Page 15380

1 Admission into the Heliodrom and the precious humanitarian work of

2 Mr. Mandelbaum during those sad events in Mostar. The question about his

3 humanitarian activity, release of some Muslims. That is, all I want to

4 know is the name of the person whom the witness approached to obtain the

5 release of these detainees, and if that does not arise from the

6 Prosecutor's questions, then I do not know what does. Only the name.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that this matter was not mentioned in

8 the cross-examinations. Mr. Seric, if you missed that portion in your

9 direct examination, I could allow you to ask this question again, on the

10 condition that the Prosecution has the opportunity to cross-exam this

11 witness on this point again. Do you agree with that? I understand that

12 yesterday you did not fully do your direct examination.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.

14 That is how it will be. I agree.

15 JUDGE LIU: Is it agreeable to the Prosecution?

16 MR. PORIOUVAEV: In principle, in principle, we don't object, but

17 it depends upon the questions the counsel will put to the witness.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. He will try to avoid any leading

19 questions.

20 You may move on, Mr. Seric.

21 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Tell us, Mr. Mandelbaum: In those cases when you helped detained

23 Muslims to leave the Heliodrom, who did you go to? Full name.

24 A. First I went to Berko Pusic, and when he didn't do it within two

25 days, I went to Mr. Slobodan Bozic, who got his jeep ready and brought two

Page 15381

1 of his colleagues along, and I believe one had his wife with him. I said

2 exactly whom I wanted to get out, and they went into the Heliodrom, looked

3 for them, and brought them to Mostar. It was sometime around the 15th of

4 May.

5 Q. Thank you very much. It wasn't clear yesterday whether during the

6 conflict between the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croat defence

7 council, that is, following the 9th of May, 1993, whether you ever met

8 Mr. Vinko Martinovic.

9 A. No. After the 9th of May, I did not.

10 Q. Very well. Thank you. That is all I wanted to ask you.

11 Mr. Mandelbaum, did we get your meaning wrong yesterday, or was

12 there a misunderstanding? Because to me it was perfectly clear. But for

13 the record, to make it as comprehensible as possible, you said that

14 assuming that a friend, a Muslim friend of yours was taken from the

15 Heliodrom to work in Vinko Martinovic, Stela's, unit, that only then you

16 would have gone to Vinko Martinovic and asked him about that person. Did

17 I understand you well?

18 A. No, you did not understand me well, sir. I said: Had a Jew been

19 taken away, and I tried with the legal authorities, that is, the HVO, the

20 military police, to inquire about his fate, if he wouldn't be detained by

21 them, then I would go around the town inquiring about him, and thus would

22 I get to Stela and ask him whether perhaps he was with him.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Mandelbaum, I said a moment ago that

24 you're a very valuable and there are very few persons in Mostar, who

25 during the conflict between the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croat

Page 15382

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Page 15383

1 Defence Council, after the 9th of May, 1993, went to all the political and

2 military institutions of Herceg-Bosna and Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is it true

3 that you never came across our client Vinko Martinovic, that he was just a

4 foot soldier on the front line, and that therefore you had no reason to

5 look him out?

6 JUDGE LIU: That's a leading question, there's no doubt about it.

7 You are leading the witness deliberately.

8 Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.

9 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I must join you in your

10 objection.

11 THE WITNESS: Please.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you should not answer this question,

13 because this Trial Chamber does not allow the Defence counsel to ask you

14 this question. You have to understand.

15 Or you may put it another way or try to rephrase your question.

16 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to avoid any

17 possible misunderstanding, because that was the case yesterday, and that

18 is why I took the liberty of asking such a question, and I stand by it.

19 But I'll rephrase it.

20 Q. Mr. Mandelbaum, do you have any direct knowledge whether Vinko

21 Martinovic was in any of these institutions or organisations that you

22 visited in order to be able to move around Mostar freely, to gain access

23 to the Heliodrom and the like?

24 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Prosecutor.

25 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, it's again a leading question,

Page 15384

1 though rephrased.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I think somehow the witness has

3 answered your question. Well, you may ask, you know, what the witness

4 knows about the role Mr. Vinko Martinovic played.

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I shall repeat the question in this way: In view of the role that

7 you played, and you said a moment ago that you did not come across Vinko

8 Martinovic, what was he, in your eyes?

9 A. In my eyes, he was a legend living in the town and whose name many

10 people used to brag about. Stela told me this, Stela told me to take a

11 flat, Stela told me so and Stela told me so. And the job he did, what he

12 did, I do not know that, and I said already that Stela was not in any of

13 these institutions, because these were all civilian institutions.

14 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Mandelbaum, I believe you will agree

15 with me when I say that there's always one rotten apple on every tree

16 which must be removed in order to save the crop.

17 MR. PORIOUVAEV: [Previous translation continues] ... who put in

18 question is leading. I object.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, Mr. Seric. It is really a leading

20 question. I don't think, you know, by asking this question will do your

21 case any good. We understand your intention. You should not ask this

22 question.

23 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this wasn't a

24 question. This is something which is a notorious fact and which needs no

25 proof. But it is notorious that there are rotten fruit on every tree.

Page 15385

1 Now I'm moving on to my question.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I know, but you are not allowed to make a

3 statement. Move on.

4 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Yesterday, when you mentioned and said that two or three soldiers

6 were arrogant, were you referring to those people or to the whole unit, or

7 Vinko Martinovic in person?

8 MR. PORIOUVAEV: The statement is a wrong interpretation of the

9 testimony, yesterday's testimony.

10 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. I remember that the witness said

11 some soldiers are very arrogant.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: But not two or three soldiers.

13 JUDGE LIU: Let me hear what the witness is going to tell us.

14 Witness, you may answer that question.

15 A. Yesterday I said that those guys threw their weight about. They

16 had big cars, with their brakes screeching, they brandished their weapons,

17 and I still see those guys in Mostar, in some coffee bars there, and they

18 still throw their weight about but do not carry any weapons any more.

19 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Mandelbaum, thank you very much. Thank you for coming to give

21 your testimony before this Court and helping to establish the real truth.

22 Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any

24 cross-examination considering of the new elements you feel that have come

25 up during the re-examination?

Page 15386

1 MR. PORIOUVAEV: No, thank you, Your Honour. I only have one

2 question to the witness.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Poriouvaev:

4 Q. Witness, did you have any contacts with the Defence last night?

5 A. No, I did not speak with them last night. Last night, after this,

6 I went to see a friend of mine in Leiden and returned only at half past

7 11.00. When I returned from the Court, I went into the hotel. They were

8 sitting there with other witnesses, but I never even approached them. I

9 didn't even have my dinner in the hotel. I went straight away -- I went

10 straight away to Leiden with this friend of mine.

11 Q. Who do you mean "they" with sitting with other witnesses?

12 A. These three counsel: Mr. Seric, the gentleman in the middle, and

13 a young lawyer. The three of them were sitting with four witnesses who

14 had arrived from Mostar to testify, and they were sitting in the hotel

15 lobby. That is, I was with those witnesses too when they arrived, but

16 this Dutch lady who recorded this film, and I wanted you to see it in

17 order to get a better picture of Mostar, she came and I left.

18 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Sorry.

19 A. No, I did not exchange with them a single word, or with any of

20 those witnesses.

21 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you very much. I have no more questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from the Judges? Judge Clark.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Mandelbaum, can I ask you a question about

25 Mostar before these terrible events? If we take the period before the 1st

Page 15387

1 inter-party elections, was there any racial or ethnic or inter-religious

2 friction in the town?

3 A. The mere fact that I don't have an uncle, I don't have a

4 grandfather, that I don't have other relatives, that I married a Croat,

5 and so did my brother, speaks for itself, and I hope that after this war

6 the situation will be the same. I never could believe that the war could

7 happen. So my wife is a Croat, and I have four children. And to answer

8 your question, there were no frictions amongst members of different

9 religions. The only thing that did exist in Mostar was that in one part

10 of West Mostar, Croats built their houses, and in east Mostar, Serbs

11 built their houses in one part. And there was a third part of the town

12 where they built houses together. And in the town, people lived together,

13 in high-rise buildings, they socialised. My best man was a Serb, if that

14 means anything to you. So we all lived together. We had an ideal life,

15 and I would wish it upon my child to have the youth that I had when I was

16 young. We had the feeling of safety and mutual understanding. I really

17 had a good youth.

18 JUDGE CLARK: Is there any even glimmer of that kind of life

19 returning to Mostar, or is it all gone?

20 A. For as long as Nazi fascist parties are in power and there are

21 Nazi parties which spread insecurity among the people, I don't think that

22 peace will be restored in Mostar. I believe if SFOR was to withdraw from

23 Mostar, the war would break out in 24 hours, for a simple reason: The

24 things for which the war started in the first place are still in place.

25 There are still things unfinished. And I believe that the division of

Page 15388

1 territory was the main reason for the war, and I'm sorry that I had to

2 answer in this way.

3 JUDGE CLARK: You are not the first one to say that, so don't

4 worry.

5 Can I ask you something about the town during the breakout of

6 hostilities between the ABiH and the HVO? Could people move around freely

7 in the town, or were there curfews and police stops and showing of ID,

8 that sort of thing?

9 A. I can only tell you about Mostar, because I spent the entire war

10 in Mostar. I didn't go to any other towns in Bosnia and Herzegovina. On

11 the 9th of May, when the Muslims started being persecuted from Mostar,

12 Muslims found it very hard to accept. As I told you yesterday, Muslims

13 and Croats never waged a war before that. They were always allies. In

14 the first war, in the Second World War. And that is why they saw the 9th

15 of May as a treason. At that time, there was a curfew. I don't know when

16 was that. I believe it was 8.00 in the afternoon [as interpreted]. There

17 was a curfew, and people couldn't move freely after that. In the streets

18 of Mostar, I don't know whether anybody asked for my ID. I can't

19 remember. But since Mostar is a small town, people mostly lived in

20 buildings, and each building had a so-called commissioner, so that any

21 given moment in time people knew who lived in the building and what was

22 their national or ethnic background. However, during the war, I believe

23 that in Mostar there were a couple of thousands of Muslims who were not

24 expelled. Some of them joined a Muslim-Bosniak organisation, MBO, and a

25 number of Muslims from the Heliodrom were able to leave the Heliodrom by

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Page 15390

1 addressing this Muslim-Bosniak organisation. I believe that it was this

2 organisation that set them free. So that will be my answer to your

3 question.

4 JUDGE CLARK: Thank you. The next question that I want to ask you

5 about is something that I suppose you would have very personal knowledge

6 of from being a Jew who survived the Second World War. Did you get the

7 impression that the expulsions you were talking about were organised, on

8 foot of military orders or political policy, or were they will expulsions

9 which were carried out as personal acts of vindictiveness and hatred? So

10 do you see the distinction? Were they organised expulsions or private

11 people carrying out their own little vendettas?

12 A. If we are talking about the entire Bosnia-Herzegovina, I can say

13 that wherever somebody was a minority, they were expelled. In Mostar, the

14 expulsion was for political reasons. There were two regions. In one of

15 them, Croats would be a majority. I believe that this was misunderstood.

16 It was a misconception, and on that foot the persecution started, but the

17 perpetrators are a different story. As far as the personal vendetta and

18 the hatred amongst the people, amongst Catholics and Muslims, I can tell

19 you that this didn't exist. There were very few people who did not get

20 along for some previous reasons, but this was certainly not because of a

21 religious bias.

22 JUDGE CLARK: I'm not sure that I understand what you were saying

23 very well, Mr. Mandelbaum. You were saying that the persecution of the

24 Muslims or the expulsion of the Muslims was politically motivated. But in

25 relation to Mostar, we've heard the evidence of a number of people who

Page 15391

1 were forcibly expelled. They've given their evidence. Do you know

2 anything about these expulsions, individual expulsions? Were they

3 organised by the army from orders or by small groups of people acting on

4 their own? Your answer wasn't clear in relation to that. You may not

5 know, but if you -- from your experience.

6 A. Very well. Based on my experience, I believe that these small

7 groups persecuted Muslims to a small extent, to plunder, to loot, and for

8 that reason. The expulsion of Muslims from the city of Mostar started on

9 the 20th of April, and later on it repeated on the 9th of May, and it was

10 a political decision of the then leadership, in order to create an

11 ethnically clean Mostar, for Mostar to become the capital of Herceg-Bosna.

12 In the town in which there were 34 per cent Muslims and 33 per cent Croats

13 before the war, Mostar couldn't be the capital. I believe that it was a

14 political decision, and then this was implemented by the military units of

15 the HVO. So people who expelled Muslims were mostly not from Mostar.

16 These people came from Citluk, from Listica, from Bosnia, and it was done

17 by these people. I told you that we knew each other very well in Mostar,

18 if not by name, but at least we know each other from sight. And I believe

19 that the units who did -- perpetrated all these things, they had an order

20 from Grude as to what should be done, what should be carried out.

21 JUDGE CLARK: You can't imagine how helpful your evidence has been

22 to me personally, Mr. Mandelbaum. Thank you.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judge's questions?

24 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Yes, Your Honour. I've got a couple of

25 questions.

Page 15392

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Poriouvaev:

3 Q. Mr. Mandelbaum, in response to Your Honour's question about the

4 curfew, you said that such a situation existed in Mostar after the 9th of

5 May, and who imposed that curfew?

6 A. The curfew was introduced by the mayor of Mostar and the town

7 administration, his town administration. It was announced on the radio

8 that as of then there would be a curfew.

9 Q. And was this curfew valid in respect of the whole population of

10 Mostar or only in respect of Muslims?

11 A. The curfew was imposed on everybody but those who war uniforms and

12 who patrolled the city and did whatever they were supposed to do.

13 Q. And my next question will be in response to Her Honour's

14 questions, you also said that it were not people from Mostar who were

15 expelling Muslims, but people from Listica and Grude. Do you mean

16 Listica, Siroki Brijeg?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. Yes, Mr. Seric. Yes, Mr. Seric.

18 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness never

19 mentioned people from Mostar.

20 JUDGE LIU: No. No. The question is not asking about the people

21 from Mostar.

22 Witness, you may answer that question.

23 A. I said that the expulsion of Muslims in 1993 was carried out by

24 the HVO members who were not from Mostar, who were from Siroki Brijeg or

25 Listica - it is the same town - from Citluk, from Grude, and from other

Page 15393

1 parts of Bosnia. You have to understand that it was the refugees who were

2 the fiercest fighters, that the refugees fought on both sides, on the

3 Muslim side and on the Croat side.

4 MR. PORIOUVAEV:

5 Q. Just continuing my question about Siroki Brijeg. Do you know of

6 any particular unit which was involved, I mean unit from Siroki Brijeg,

7 which was involved in the expulsion of Muslims from Mostar?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

9 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this question has not

10 been raised either on direct or on cross-examination, or by the Judges, so

11 I don't know where this re-direct, re-examination and the new

12 cross-examination is leading to. I cannot allow that -- I cannot agree

13 that everything can be allowed, and especially if something has not been

14 raised so far, that it can be raised now at this point.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, in the answer of the questions, the witness said

16 that those people from Listica and the Siroki Brijeg, so naturally the

17 following question is to ask which unit, whether this witness knows, those

18 people are from. This question is allowed.

19 Witness, you may answer this question.

20 A. I don't know which unit it was. They did not have any insignia

21 that would give the name of the unit. However, I came across people in

22 Mostar who spoke a different dialect, which was not the dialect of

23 Mostar. And when I told you that these were units from Listica or from

24 Siroki Brijeg, then from Grude, Citluk, and from Bosnia, I said that these

25 people were those who came to Mostar from somewhere else, to expel Muslims

Page 15394

1 from Mostar, and that was done for the reason for the people not to know

2 who were the ones who had expelled them.

3 MR. PORIOUVAEV: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Seric?

5 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Krsnik.

7 MR. KRSNIK: Yes, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Why? I'll allow you to ask a question which is

9 related to your client.

10 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't have any questions related to

11 my client, but I have questions related to the indictment and to --

12 related to the questions asked by Her Honour Clark. That could be related

13 to my client, and that one question would be whether the witness knows

14 what was the destiny of Croats on the east side and what happened with

15 them? Were they expelled? The gentleman is a humanitarian work, and

16 maybe he could tell us whether Croats were expelled from Mostar as well.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, is this question related to Judge Clark's

18 question? Is this question related to the indictment?

19 MR. KRSNIK: Absolutely.

20 JUDGE LIU: No, we don't think so. You are not allowed to ask

21 this question. You have to understand. We know that all the people, no

22 matter what ethnicity, what nationalities, during that period suffered a

23 lot, but we have to concentrate on the scope of the indictment and the

24 questions asked by the Judges.

25 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with due respect, here

Page 15395

1 we are talking about the town of Mostar, and Judge Clark's questions were

2 relative to the town of Mostar. The witness was talking about Mostar.

3 Your Honour Clark, you are interested in the destiny of all the people in

4 Mostar and so are we. That's how the witnesses testify here, and that's

5 how we have understood him here. So my question is a follow-up, because I

6 have understood the role of this witness as somebody who would be talking

7 about the destiny of the entire population of the town of Mostar, of all

8 the people there.

9 JUDGE CLARK: Mr. Krsnik, you can take it that we know that not

10 only the Muslim population suffered during the war. We know that.

11 There's no dispute about that. And you see, we have to follow the Rules.

12 This is not your witness, so how can you re-examine unless specifically

13 your client's position has been negatively altered or he's been prejudiced

14 in any way? You can take it for granted that we now know that Serbs,

15 Jews, Yugoslavs, Muslims, and Croats suffered horribly during the war, but

16 the issue we're dealing with, as Judge Liu has pointed out to you, is the

17 indictment, and we have to have some order.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to

19 give your evidence. We appreciate your testimony very much, and the usher

20 will show you out of the room, and we all wish you a good journey back

21 home. Thank you very much.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wish you would have

23 had the time to look at this video footage that was delivered to you two

24 years ago.

25 [The witness withdrew]

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Page 15397

1 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

2 Mr. Seric?

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, no documents to

4 tender.

5 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Your Honour, I've got one exhibit to tender,

6 Exhibit P796.3. This is ECMM report read out yesterday in the courtroom.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Prosecutor, I don't think this document is

8 translated into the B/C/S. Although we use the interpretation here during

9 the trial, but to be fair, this document has to be translated into the

10 B/C/S so that the two accused could not be in the adverse, disadvantaged

11 position.

12 MR. PORIOUVAEV: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: We will take into consideration of the admission of

14 that document when we receive the translation of that document.

15 MR. PORIOUVAEV: By all means, we'll have it translated and submit

16 it to the registrar.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Could we have the witness, please. And there are some protective

19 measures for the next witness.

20 JUDGE CLARK: Have you hurt your back? You don't look well.

21 MR. KRSNIK: No, Your Honour. I'm very ill.

22 JUDGE CLARK: You're ill?

23 MR. KRSNIK: Yes. But still, I cannot let the lady work alone. I

24 would like to help you, if you need help.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Scott.

Page 15398

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Mr. President. Very briefly, if I could use the

2 time. Sorry, the witness is just now -- I was just reminded that we had

3 requested the other day the c.v. or curriculum vitae of the expert of

4 Davor Marijan. We still have not received that, because I realise that we

5 may finish this witness today and not be in session again until next week.

6 We're still seeking that c.v., Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this morning I received a c.v. Maybe

8 Mr. Par could clarify this matter.

9 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, we received a c.v., but unfortunately

10 it was not for the witness we sought. It was for another witness but not

11 for Mr. Marijan, which we still do not have.

12 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we said we would send the

13 c.v. We have received it. It is being translated. We hope that the

14 translation will be completed by the end of the day, and then we will send

15 it to the Prosecution. You have received another c.v., the c.v. of our

16 other expert doctor, so our obligation still stands, and we will comply

17 with it. But the Prosecution knows everything about the expert, because

18 he cooperated with them in the past. So we are not hiding anything from

19 them. This is our obligation, we are aware of it, and we will comply with

20 it, maybe even by the end of the day today.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

25 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

Page 15399

1 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

2 WITNESS: WITNESS MU

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, witness. You may sit down.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Mr. Par, your direct examination.

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 Examined by Mr. Par:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, good afternoon. Can you hear me?

12 A. Yes, I can.

13 Q. Before we start, I would like to inform you that you have been

14 granted protection measures for your testimony, and that is the protection

15 of your face and name. So your identity will not be known, and parts of

16 this session which could reveal your identity will be given in the

17 so-called closed session.

18 Can you please look at the piece of paper with your name on it.

19 If this is indeed your name, just say yes.

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Can we please move into closed session?

22 JUDGE LIU: You mean private session?

23 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Private session, please.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 [Private session]

Page 15400

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [Open session]

24 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Witness, can you tell us, in only so many words, whether you were

Page 15401

1 militarily engaged during the Serb aggression, and if yes, where?

2 A. I was, in Mostar.

3 Q. Can you tell us what unit, where? Wait. Just wait.

4 A. The command of the military district of Mostar, which is in the

5 former Lesnina building, Lesnina building.

6 Q. The 9th of May, 1993, the day when the conflict between the Croats

7 and the Muslims started, where were you then?

8 A. On the 9th of May I was at home, in Mostar.

9 Q. And when did you report to your unit?

10 A. I reported in the morning, at the headquarters, when I was due.

11 Q. Which is the 10th?

12 A. The 10th.

13 Q. Tell us: In 1993, in this conflict between the Croats and the

14 Muslims, were you always with that unit or did you perhaps go to join some

15 other units?

16 A. I was at the command of the military district in Mostar all the

17 time.

18 Q. Will you tell us whether at that time, that is, in 1993, the

19 Croat-Muslim war, did you communicate with Vinko Martinovic, Stela?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you, within the framework of your jobs and duties, communicate

22 with units?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you, during that same time, ever go to the separation line?

25 A. No.

Page 15402

1 Q. Did you ever participate personally in some military operations

2 with a rifle or something?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you know an individual called Nenad Haramandic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us: How did you know him? What can you tell us

7 about him?

8 A. I knew Nenad Haramandic through my late father. They were

9 friends. They patronised together, two or three taverns in Mostar. Apart

10 from that, I did not socialise with him.

11 Q. Can you tell us, please: Did you know members of his family: His

12 wife, his son?

13 A. I didn't.

14 Q. Did you ever visit their house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Will you tell me if you used to see Nenad Haramandic during the

17 war?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you know that Nenad Haramandic was detained at the Heliodrom

20 camp?

21 A. No.

22 Q. During the war, or after it, did you learn anything about Nenad

23 Haramandic's fate?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you, during the war, used to see Nenad Haramandic's wife?

Page 15403

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Page 15404

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you perhaps see Nenad Haramandic's son sometime in the course

3 of the war?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What about after the war? Did then you see Nenad Haramandic's

6 wife or son?

7 A. No.

8 JUDGE CLARK: [Previous translation continues] ... Mr. Par?

9 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] I believe so, Your Honour. We're coming

10 to it.

11 Q. So my last question was --

12 A. During the war, whether I used to see the wife or son of Nenad

13 Haramandic's. That was the question?

14 MR. PAR: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Did you in any way discuss Nenad Haramandic's fate with any member

16 of his family?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know an individual called Kladusak from Jablanica, who, in

19 1993, was a prisoner of war in Mostar?

20 A. No.

21 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we go into private

22 session, please, for a moment?

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25

Page 15405

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Page 15406

1 [redacted]

2 [Open session]

3 --- Recess taken at 3.25 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Cross-examination, Mr. Stringer.

6 MR. STRINGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I have very few

7 questions for the witness, but I think it's best to be in private session.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. STRINGER: If I could ask --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.

11 [Private session]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

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Page 15407

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Page 15408

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7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [Open session]

11 MR. STRINGER:

12 Q. Witness, in the town of Mostar, have you heard of or do you know

13 people who have a different nickname from you, a nickname Cica, C-i-c-a?

14 A. No.

15 MR. STRINGER: Nothing further, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Any re-examination, Mr. Par?

18 MR. PAR: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Any questions from Judges?

20 Well, thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to give your

21 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will show you out of

22 the room. We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE CLARK: Witness, just wait a few minutes.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

Page 15409

1 MR. STRINGER: Before we adjourn, Mr. President, there was one

2 very brief issue we wanted to raise with the Trial Chamber concerning next

3 week's proceedings.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll wait until the witness leaves the room.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stringer.

7 MR. STRINGER: Mr. President, one of the expert witnesses

8 scheduled for next week to testify in open session is a Dr. Begic, and

9 we among ourselves on the Prosecution bench have a bit of a concern. We

10 have read the expert submissions of Mr. Begic and know that he will be

11 commenting on the testimony of another person who has testified in this

12 case in open session, but he's going to be describing alleged competencies

13 of this other witness, alleged mental disorders, things of that nature,

14 and then commenting on that witness's ability to recall, I suppose, and to

15 give reliable testimony. The only concern we had was whether that sort of

16 testimony, where one person is commenting on deficiencies, mental

17 deficiencies of another person who has appeared is something that could

18 perhaps be dealt more appropriately in a private or a closed session, so

19 that, as a form of protection of the person who testified previously in

20 this case, and that is a bit of a concern we have out of fairness for the

21 previous witness, whether it's really appropriate for us to be talking

22 about his sanity or lack thereof in open proceedings here at the Tribunal.

23 JUDGE LIU: Any response, Mr. Seric?

24 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course I want to respond.

25 This is a witness, or rather, an expert witness, for the Defence. What my

Page 15410

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Page 15411

1 learned friend has just said, he absolutely objects to what that witness

2 himself asked for when his protective measures were raised. He requested

3 that he testify in open session, and in that open session, he said that he

4 had received psychiatric treatment and that he had a certain mental

5 complaints. And after him, we heard a number of witnesses who confirmed

6 that, again in open sessions. So whom do we protect now when we hear an

7 expert witness about this? The diagnosis, just a diagnostic paper issued

8 by the hospital in Mostar. When the witness himself did not want it. I

9 do not know what the Prosecutor wants, that the public does not learn what

10 quality of testimonies -- of his testimony was. I mean, he's our witness

11 and we are requesting an open session. We do not want -- we do not need

12 any protective measures for our expert witness, and I must vehemently

13 object to this Prosecution's proposal.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I don't think you get the meaning of

15 what the Prosecution said. I think the purpose of his concern is to

16 protect the personal privacy of the witness, if I may say like this. As I

17 understand, in many jurisdictions, the personal history of an illness or

18 diagnosis rendered by a doctor are quite different from the comments made

19 by some ordinary people. This is touched upon the very privacy of a

20 person. I think we have to respect the privacy of all the people before

21 this courtroom.

22 My suggestion is: We'll start the trial, the hearing, in open

23 session, and when we come to the specific aspect, both parties are free to

24 raise to the attention of this Trial Chamber to move to the private

25 session. Is that agreeable to both parties?

Page 15412

1 MR. STRINGER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] It is not agreeable to me,

4 Mr. President, because the witness himself has refused such protection.

5 In his testimony, he himself, and he even pronounced his diagnosis aloud.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, I still think that you don't

7 understand the meaning of the request from the Prosecution. At this

8 stage, if you do not agree with this suggestion, I'm afraid we have to

9 make a ruling that we'll start with that witness in open session, and both

10 parties are free to request to come into the private session whenever they

11 believe it's necessary. So decided.

12 Yes, Mr. Krsnik.

13 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] I don't know if you have finished

14 this subject. I'd like to raise something else that has to do with my

15 last witness, the expert witness, Professor Ancic. I don't know if it

16 is possible. I don't know if the previous witness has been dealt with.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

18 MR. KRSNIK: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I wanted to ask you the

19 following: Our last expert witness, Professor Ancic - this is our joint

20 witness - was scheduled to appear as our last witness, and over the phone

21 he told me that he had some previous commitments and that he cannot be

22 here before the 18th or the 19th of September, which is Friday. So I

23 wanted to ask you to agree with my proposal that we hear this witness on

24 the 23rd, which is a Monday, when it is sure that the witness can actually

25 be here. This is all that I have to ask of you, Your Honours, and of my

Page 15413

1 learned friends on the Prosecution bench. According to our previous

2 schedule, I thought that my colleagues will finish around the 20th, and

3 that is how I scheduled my witness, who, however, has some commitments,

4 commitments related to his university duties. That's why I wanted to ask

5 you to allow me to call this witness on the 23rd, which is a Monday.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for the information. On our part,

7 there is no problem at all. We have to check with the registrar to see a

8 suitable courtroom is arranged for the hearing. But it is really our

9 desire to hear the witnesses one after another rather than stop for a few

10 days, then have another witness. But since you have the difficulty in

11 calling your witness, I think this Trial Chamber will do its utmost to

12 accommodate your request.

13 Mr. Seric, is it possible for us to hear the witnesses next week

14 this Friday? I was told that they are going to arrive here this Friday

15 and we will have afternoon session. I just ask you whether there is a

16 possibility for us to hear the witness on Friday.

17 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witnesses arrive by

18 plane from Sarajevo via Zurich and they will arrive in the hotel around

19 10.00 in the evening on the 13th of September, that is, on Friday, around

20 10.00 in the evening. Therefore, it is not going to be possible to hear

21 them on Friday. The first day after that that we can hear them is Monday,

22 the 16th of September. We have envisaged to finish two witnesses on the

23 16th, and the next witness, the expert, could be finished on the 17th.

24 That is, my direct examination could be finished on the 17th, and this

25 would bring our part of the case to an end. So it can be envisaged that

Page 15414

1 our direct examination of all our witnesses will be finished on the 17th,

2 and then it will depend on the Prosecution how long they will take to

3 cross-examine.

4 And maybe just a suggestion, and I'm sorry for taking this

5 liberty. If you will decide to hear my colleague Krsnik's witness on the

6 23rd, that we should maybe have a break on Monday and Tuesday, and that we

7 start working then and conclude our work on the 23rd. So prolong this

8 break that we are going to have now, and instead of working on Monday and

9 Tuesday, we should then start working on Wednesday and continue until my

10 colleague Krsnik's witness is finished. And I apologise for this

11 suggestion.

12 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry. I did not get you.

13 MR. SERIC: [Interpretation] I have just heard your suggestion that

14 we should work continuously. With regard to the fact that we will need

15 two days for three witnesses, maybe these two days should start on the

16 18th, that the break would be on the 16th, and on the 17th, that would

17 bring us closer to the 23rd if you grant Mr. Krsnik's witness to be heard

18 on 23rd, which is Monday. We are prepared to do that. But obviously it

19 will be as you decide. That is to avoid another break after our three

20 witnesses before Mr. Krsnik's witness.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Seric, there's a problem that your witness

22 will stay in The Hague too long. I don't think that the registrar will

23 agree with this suggestion, even if we made a decision on this respect.

24 So we have to stick to our original arrangement, to hear the witness next

25 Monday. And since that both parties have plenty of time in this week

Page 15415

1 and the next week, my suggestion is that you might, thinking of the final

2 briefs, and report to any rejoinder witnesses. We have already made a

3 decision that we'll break before the 4th of October so that both parties

4 will have plenty time to submit and prepare their final brief, as well as

5 prepare their witnesses, in rebuttal and rejoinder procedures. Here I

6 have to suggest that this Trial Chamber adopted a very strict view

7 concerning with the witnesses of the rebuttal and the rejoinder

8 procedures. We will not accept new elements in those procedures. We only

9 hope those parties could call the witness directly related to the evidence

10 raised in your cases or in the other party's cases. It's not a procedure

11 for the retrial.

12 Having said that, we will rise until next Monday afternoon in

13 courtroom III.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.23 p.m.

15 To be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of

16 September 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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