Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1636

1 Tuesday, 2 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, registrar. And good morning to you.

9 Mr. Oric, can you hear me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

11 morning, ladies and gentlemen. I can understand everything that's being

12 said.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you. Please take your

14 seat.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 senior trial attorney, together with counsel, Mr. Gramsci Di Fazio and

18 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to you and

20 your team.

21 Appearances for Naser Oric.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Vasvija

23 Vidovic appearing together with Mr. John Jones for Naser Oric. We are

24 joined today here by our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our

25 CaseMap manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

Page 1637

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Vidovic, and good morning to you

2 and your team.

3 Just to put you into the picture, I will be signing this

4 morning -- actually, I'm signing them now, our decision on Prosecution

5 motion for the testimony of a witness of -- basically of witness -- the

6 witnesses Radenko Zivanovic and Svetlana Trifunovic for the testimony of

7 these two witnesses via video conference link. And it's taken that the

8 days that you are seeking for these videolinks remain the 25 and the 26th

9 of November.

10 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I will be signing this motion, granting the

12 motion.

13 There is also another decision that we will be handing down this

14 morning and that is a decision on Prosecution's motion for the admission

15 of written statements of witnesses Bogicevic, Bozic, and Bogdanovic. And

16 we are referring only to the written statement of deceased witness

17 Bozicevic, and we will be granting the motion.

18 And then there is pending a motion, confidential motion, for

19 protective measures relating to a particular witness who you seek to refer

20 to as C008. We have a draft ready, but we will keep the draft pending

21 until we interview this witness. In other words, the instructions for the

22 time being are: Bring this witness along when you require him to give

23 evidence. Do not in any way even remotely hint that he stands a good

24 chance of getting any of these protective measures that you seek for him.

25 We want to make sure that you do not make him live that illusion in case

Page 1638

1 it does not materialise. And then on the basis of what he testifies here

2 in private session, we will decide whether to go ahead and grant him the

3 protective measures that you are seeking or not. It will be a very simple

4 exercise. The decision will be given orally there and then. We have it

5 written already either way; in other words, because we don't know

6 exactly -- I mean, we are still very much undecided, very much undecided.

7 So much depends on his reaction in the courtroom and the soundness of his

8 concerns for his own safety.

9 So, Madam registrar -- not Madam Registrar --

10 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So can you bring in the witness --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any preliminaries before we proceed with

14 the witness?

15 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: How long -- how much longer do you need,

17 Ms. Richardson?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at most I anticipate an hour and a

19 half.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Again?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: At most. Possibly an hour, if not less.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Jones, you had to revise your according

23 to the --

24 MR. JONES: Yes. I would certainly think two hours at least.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So let's bring the witness in. That's two

Page 1639

1 hours plus an hour and a half, three hours and a half. That's more or

2 less it. The sooner we finish, the better.

3 Now what's happening to them?

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Stevanovic. Welcome back. Madam

6 Usher is going to give you again -- hand to you the text of the solemn

7 declaration. I would like you to read it out again today. I just want to

8 remind you that you are still testifying under oath.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down and we will be

12 proceeding straight away with the direct -- with the examination-in-chief.

13 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]

18 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, when we left off yesterday - good morning to you -

19 you were describing to us what you heard as you were escaping the attack

20 on your village in June of 1992. I would like to take you back there

21 again today. And I believe that you testified to yesterday was that you

22 heard crying of someone that you knew. And if you could just tell us

23 after you heard the crying what you proceeded to do after this -- after

24 you heard the crying.

25 A. There was nothing that I could do. I was in the creek and I

Page 1640

1 couldn't get there. It was Ljubisa Gajic, the person I'm talking about.

2 Q. Did you later learn what happened to Ljubisa Gajic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you tell us.

5 A. Just behind me as we were getting out of the creek, Milutin

6 Stevanovic stayed behind. He never went down into the creek with me to

7 begin with. And he watched the whole situation unfold. He told me that

8 Ljubisa was wounded on the road, that he cried for help and moaned. He

9 said the Muslims came over and took him over into the cornfield and burned

10 him alive right there.

11 Q. Was the body of Mr. Ljubisa Gajic ever discovered?

12 A. His bones were found right there in the ashes. It all burned down

13 together with the cornstalks.

14 Q. And if you could tell us if you know when did his bones -- when

15 were his bones discovered?

16 A. I am not certain because I wasn't present myself.

17 Q. Fine. Very well. Did Milutin Stevanovic -- this is a relative of

18 yours?

19 A. Yes, a distant relative.

20 Q. Did he tell you about encountering -- did he tell you who had

21 killed Mr. Gajic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And who was that?

24 A. A man named Ramco from Mocevici, but I don't know his last name.

25 Q. And when you said that the Muslims came and took him, which

Page 1641

1 Muslims are you referring to? Are you talking about civilians or

2 soldiers?

3 A. Soldiers.

4 Q. Did Mr. Stevanovic -- now, if you could tell us -- excuse me. If

5 you could tell us what happened after you left the creek as you were

6 fleeing, were you able to see any other villages burning?

7 A. Not from right there. I could no longer see my village or any

8 other village for that matter from the creek.

9 Q. And what direction did you flee in?

10 A. Towards the river, the river that led towards the Drina.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could ask for the usher's assistance at this

12 time. I would request that this witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 407,

13 which is the map that we used yesterday, with Your Honours' permission.

14 Q. If you could take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 407. Could you

15 show us, point on that map the direction you took when you fled your

16 village.

17 A. I ran down along this creek and went down as far as the river

18 Grabovacka Rijeka, that's its name, which leads all the way to the river

19 Drina itself.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Could we zoom in the spot that the witness is

21 indicating, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went down as far as this river. I

23 crossed the river below the village of Kaludra. I took cover in the woods

24 there.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. For the record, the witness indicates a route

Page 1642

1 that starts somewhere in the vicinity of Bradjevina on the left-hand side

2 of the circle, of the coloured circle on the map. In a south-easterly

3 direction in the direction of Kaludra -- of Kaludra. Just where the tip

4 of the arrow which he had indicated during yesterday's testimony is.

5 Yeah.

6 Okay. Go ahead.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I crossed this river, and I reached

8 the meadow behind the village of Kaludra in the direction of

9 Grabovacka Rijeka to the right. The direction that I was headed from, I

10 turned around and I saw my village ablaze, all of it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.


13 Q. And where did you go -- when you said you were hiding in the

14 bushes, you said you went towards the Drina river. Could you show us the

15 path you took to get to the Drina River.

16 A. I came out of the creek. I crossed the river below the village of

17 Kaludra, and I crossed these meadows to the right of the river and through

18 the woods. There were woods there and meadows, and I went down as far as

19 Grabovacka Rijeka.

20 Q. And could you point to Grabovacka Rijeka on the map if you see it.

21 A. [Witness complies].

22 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness points to

23 Grabovacka Rijeka on the map.

24 Could you put it in a circle or draw an "X" in a circle there and

25 put your signature -- your initials nearby, please. Just put an "X" in a

Page 1643

1 circle.

2 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but you didn't put an "X."

4 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And put your initials outside the circle,

6 please, top right.

7 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

9 Yes, Ms. Richardson.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, could you tell us who you were fleeing with, who was in your

12 presence as you were going towards the Grabovacka Rijeka.

13 A. My father, Radivoje; my mother, Zorka; my brother, Slavko; a

14 relative named Djuro; a relative named Milovan; a man named Milutin who

15 stayed behind in the creek; a man named Mile Petrovic from the

16 neighbouring village of Magudovici; a man named Milojko Stjepanovic also

17 from the neighbouring village of Magudovici. That's it.

18 Q. You said a couple of these individuals were from the neighbouring

19 village of Magudovici. Could you tell us if --

20 A. Yes. Mile Milojko.

21 Q. Could you tell us if you are aware of any other villages that were

22 attacked that day in your neighbouring village, and that includes

23 Magudovici.

24 A. Yes. Magudovici.

25 Q. In addition to Magudovici, were there any other villages attacked

Page 1644

1 that day in the immediate vicinity of Bradjevina?

2 A. Kaludra and Vranesevici.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, if I could ask for the usher's assistance

4 again, and I would refer you to the map.

5 Q. And ask if those villages you just mentioned are on the map. I

6 believe they were circled previously, but if you could just for the record

7 indicate with an "X" next to those villages that were also attacked on the

8 same day.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he have to indicate with an "X" this time?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, I only want to make the record

11 clear because later on as we are looking at this map there are some

12 circles indicating previously that these were Serb villages. What I'd

13 like for him to do now is indicate which Serb villages that he previously

14 circled were also attacked. I think it's important.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: On the map there is only one village indicated which

16 was not a Serb village. All the ones in red are Serb villages. The one

17 in yellow or the blue is the only Muslim one. So if he says --

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, they weren't all --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: If he says "Kaludra," we can see it and that's it.

20 So let's proceed. I don't want him to mark anything. Let's move.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: As you wish, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, with respect to these villages, could you tell us if you were

23 able to see as you were fleeing towards the river, if you were able to see

24 these villages and see if there was any burning taking place.

25 A. Behind me was the village of Kaludra. I could only smell smoke.

Page 1645

1 I couldn't see the village itself. As for the village of Vranesevici it

2 had not been torched at that point in time yet.

3 Q. Did you later learn that it had been?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what did you learn? What were you told?

6 A. When I came back from Grabovacka Rijeka, my relatives Milutin and

7 Stevan didn't come. Stojan Stevanovic was also not there, but he had not

8 come with us to Grabovacka Rijeka to begin with. There was a group ahead

9 of me that went straight to the village of Bradjevina. I don't know who

10 those people were but I did know some of them. I followed them after a

11 while, although the Serbs at Grabovacka Rijeka were trying to keep me from

12 going. They said that I would get myself killed as well. I had to go

13 there because my brother remained in the village.

14 I headed towards that village. I approached the village of

15 Vranesevici. I met a man named Stanisa Stevanovic; also Borivoje

16 Milanovic, Sreten Stjepanovic, who hails from Vranesevici. I mean Sreten.

17 They were driving Stojan on a cart. I saw that Stojan's throat had been

18 cut, and I saw that the far end of the village of Vranesevici was

19 beginning to catch fire. I saw things strewn along the roadsides, some

20 sort of bags or backpacks containing food mostly. And I went straight

21 back to Grabovacka Rijeka from there with them. I never returned to my

22 village or to any other village in the area after that.

23 Q. The men who were fleeing with you, did they -- from Magudovici,

24 did they mention what had happened to their village? Did they say why

25 they were fleeing?

Page 1646

1 A. They said to me that in Magudovici everything had been burned

2 down, destroyed, that they barely managed to get out of the village. And

3 it just so happened that they came to the creek where I was.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would request that we

6 go into private session.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go into private session for a while, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

25 (Redacted)

Page 1647

1 (Redacted)

2 (Redacted)

3 (Redacted)

4 (Redacted)

5 (Redacted)

6 (Redacted)

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We are back in open session now.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Now, as you returned -- you said at some point you encountered

18 Stanisa Stevanovic with the body of Stojan. I should ask, is Stojan a

19 relative of yours?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what did -- in addition to seeing the body with Stanisa, what

22 did Stanisa say to you with respect to the village of Bradjevina?

23 A. He said to me that he saw some of the people who did that, that

24 these were Muslim extremists, or rather soldiers.

25 Q. Did he say anything about the state of the village?

Page 1648

1 A. The village was completely destroyed, burned down.

2 Q. Did there --

3 A. And he said to me that my house, the house that I was born in, our

4 old house, and the barn that was nearby in the middle of the village. And

5 there were about two tonnes of wheat in that barn, he told me that that

6 had remained intact and that it had not burned down at that point in time.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I need to clear this. It may have been my

10 hearing, which is usually very good. But your question was this: "And

11 what did -- in addition to seeing the body with Stanisa, what did Stanisa

12 say to you with respect to the village of Bradjevina?"

13 And the answer was: "He said to me that he saw some of the people

14 who did it, that they were Muslim extremists, or rather soldiers."

15 Did you say that they were Muslim extremists or rather soldiers,

16 or did you say that they were Muslim extremists rather than soldiers?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one is the correct one?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all the same. It's one in the

20 same thing.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not the same thing.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Let me --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One means that you are assimilating Muslim

24 extremists with soldiers; to you they are one and the same thing. The

25 other one is you are distinguishing Muslim extremists from soldiers. One

Page 1649

1 says these were Muslim extremists or rather soldiers. The other one says

2 these were Muslim extremists rather than soldiers. It's important that he

3 gets the interpretation correct here because the first translation that I

4 heard myself said rather than soldiers and not -- or rather soldiers.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may.

6 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, could you tell us --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him answer the question, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was trying to --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. Let him -- I think the question has been

10 clear enough.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Soldier -- soldiers and extremists

12 had the same uniforms, the same objectives. For me it was one and the

13 same thing. They had the same objective, to destroy everything that was

14 Serb, and that's what they did.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Exactly. That's your answer.

16 You may proceed, Ms. Richardson.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Q. Did you ever return to the village of Bradjevina and could you

19 tell us what year this was?

20 A. I returned after the Dayton Agreement.

21 Q. Can you recall the year and the approximate month?

22 A. It was towards the end of 1995.

23 Q. And could you --

24 A. I think that was that time.

25 Q. Could you tell us what you saw in the village when you returned.

Page 1650

1 A. When I returned to the village, I couldn't recognise anything.

2 There were weeds and grass all over and I barely managed to find my own

3 house.

4 Q. And what were the -- was the state of your house?

5 A. Only the stone foundations were there.

6 Q. And did you see the other houses in the village?

7 A. Yes. Yes. They looked the same.

8 Q. Since the attack in 1992 in June did you return to the village to

9 live -- well, I guess I should ask: Since the attack in 1992, did anyone

10 ever return to Bradjevina, yourself or the other villagers, to reside

11 there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And could you tell us why you didn't return or any of the other

14 villagers.

15 A. They had nowhere to go. And until 1994 and 1995, all these Serb

16 villages were under Muslim control.

17 Q. And the state of the houses themselves, were they destroyed so

18 that no one could return there to live immediately after the attack? Do

19 you know?

20 A. Yes. No one had any place to return to. There was just ashes,

21 nothing.

22 Q. Did you or any of your fellow villagers from Bradjevina receive

23 compensation for the damage to your home from the Muslim forces or the

24 Muslim military?

25 A. No.

Page 1651

1 Q. Did you or anyone in the village that you know of receive

2 compensation for the loss of the animals, the livestock, that was taken

3 from the village during the attack?

4 A. Not until now, no one gave us anything.

5 Q. So you've never received anything?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did you ever learn who was responsible for the attack on your

8 village and the surrounding villages that day?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who was that?

11 A. The commander of the Srebrenica Muslim army, Naser Oric.

12 Q. Now, you -- let me just -- I'd like to cover a particular area

13 with you. You mentioned that one of your brothers had fled with you.

14 Could you tell us what happened to your other brother.

15 A. My other brother was in the village. From the position where I

16 was, I couldn't see anything. He was also wounded. At a point that was

17 lower than the village in the wheat fields. He was trying to get out. He

18 was hiding in the wheat fields, and that's where he got two wounds in the

19 elbow and in the area of the chest. He was hit by a hunting gun in the

20 chest. And the other gunshot came from a different kind of firearm, a

21 military firearm. I don't know what kind. The -- these objects were

22 found in his body at the surgery ward of the hospital in Uzice.

23 When getting out of that village when he was wounded, he managed

24 to get into a creek, too, where he hid underneath a tree that had been

25 felled and that was there on the creek. He lay there wounded for a longer

Page 1652

1 period of time. I don't know how long. For several hours. People heard

2 him crying and calling out for help, and they tried to save him. They

3 tried to rescue him. One of the men who came there to try to help him

4 also got killed while rescuing him.

5 Another man went missing after that. For a long time we did not

6 know what happened to him. He was found between the villages of

7 Bradjevina and Magasici, dead. He had also been killed.

8 Q. Did your brother tell you who injured him, who shot him?

9 A. They were looking for my brother in the wheat fields. They wanted

10 to catch him alive. They did not find him in the place where they had

11 wounded him. The pigs belonging to our other neighbours from the village

12 were in that wheat field, too. They were moving about as well. These

13 Muslim extremists that I mentioned a few minutes ago lost him because of

14 those pigs. This Rade Jovanovic who tried to save my brother came across

15 this group of extremists, and they killed him.

16 Q. When you say they were looking for him, could you clarify for us

17 who they -- you're referring to.

18 A. The Muslim extremists.

19 Q. And when you say "Muslim extremists," are you speaking about

20 soldiers or civilians?

21 A. Yes, yes. It's one and the same thing.

22 Q. Could you tell us --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, he needs to answer the question

24 whether to him these were soldiers or whether they were civilians.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour, I was going to --

Page 1653

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's an important distinction.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: I was going to seek clarification.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


5 Q. When you say "soldiers," -- well, let me say this. You previously

6 testified that civilians and soldiers were involved in the attack on your

7 village. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so when you say "the extremists," are you referring to those

10 soldiers and civilians who attacked your village?

11 A. No.

12 Q. What are you referring to?

13 A. Extremists are all persons in uniform who carried weapons,

14 regardless of the type of uniform they wore.

15 Q. Okay. Without labelling them as extremists, let's put aside that

16 label for a moment, were they soldiers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 What happened to your brother with respect to the injuries he

20 received that day in Bradjevina? He was treated. Did he ever heal from

21 those injuries?

22 A. He never healed completely. He was given medical treatment at the

23 surgery ward at the Uzice hospital. After having been ill for a long time

24 due to these wounds, he died after a great deal of suffering in 1998 in

25 Skelani.

Page 1654

1 Q. Now, you mentioned that someone died who helped your brother.

2 This was Rade Jovanovic?

3 A. Yes, Rade Jovanovic. He got killed at that moment. It's not that

4 he was just dead.

5 Q. Okay. How did he die, if you know?

6 A. I was in Skelani, or rather in Bajina Basta with my brother. And

7 I heard that Rade Jovanovic had been transported to Bajina Basta in order

8 to have a post-mortem carried out. I went there to have a look. I saw

9 the body. His head had been bashed badly. He had probably been beaten

10 with all kinds of objects; who knows what. Either his left or his right

11 leg had been completely severed due to the effect of some kind of weapon.

12 So that's what I saw as far as Rade Jovanovic was concerned.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- when you went to Bajina Basta, you

14 observed the body of Rade Jovanovic. Did you see any other bodies that

15 you -- people who died during the attack on your village and the

16 neighbouring villages?

17 A. I saw the body of Stojan Stevanovic as well.

18 Q. Well, let me ask you this: Was Stojan Stevanovic in the military

19 as far as you know, the Serb military?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Was Rade Jovanovic a member of the Serb military?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Was Ljubisa Gajic part of the Serb military?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And from the village of Magudovici, one of the other villages that

Page 1655

1 was attacked on the same day, do you know of anyone else who died during

2 that attack?

3 A. Slavko Petrovic got killed when he tried to get to Bradjevina.

4 Novica Stjepanovic [as interpreted] got killed.

5 Q. Were either of these men part of the Serb military?

6 A. No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. I see here Novica Stjepanovic. Is it

8 Stjepanovic or Stanojevic? Novica.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Novica Stanojevic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Just for the record. Because in line 4 of page --

11 not line 4. Line 5 we have Stjepanovic. It's not Stjepanovic; it's

12 Stanojevic. Yes. But of course, repeat the same question because it's

13 the other question that's relevant.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Were either Novica Stanojevic or Slavko Petrovic part of the Serb

16 military?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And was your brother a member -- either of your brothers members

19 of the Serb military?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And specifically so that it's clear, I'm referring to in June of

22 1992 or any part of 1992 that you're aware of. Could you answer verbally.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. An individual by the name of Vukoman Pavlovic, are you

25 familiar with him?

Page 1656

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did he also die during the attack?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you know where he was from?

5 A. Grabovacka Rijeka.

6 Q. And are you aware of whether or not he was a member of the Serb

7 military?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you know how he --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No means you were not aware or no you know that he

11 wasn't a member of the Serb army? Was he -- do you know whether he was a

12 member of the Serb army or not or not? If you know, you should be in a

13 position to tell us yes or no then.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was not a member of the Serb army

15 or any other formation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


18 Q. He died during the attack on Bradjevina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know what the circumstances are surrounding his death?

21 Now, you mentioned he was from Grabovacka Rijeka. Did he happen to be in

22 the village at the time?

23 A. No. With Rade Jovanovic he went up there to the village to see

24 what he could do to help, whether he could get someone out, things like

25 that.

Page 1657

1 Q. And he was killed during this time?

2 A. Yes. But no one knows under which circumstances. Rade got killed

3 when he was looking for my brother, whereas this man got killed at some

4 later point. He was simply found between these two villages.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 Now, I would like to take you back to when you arrived at

7 Grabovacka Rijeka with your family and other members of the villages in

8 the surrounding areas. Could you tell us what happened when you got to

9 Grabovacka Rijeka.

10 A. When we came to Grabovacka Rijeka, the people were there crying,

11 screaming. They took us in. We stayed there for a while in order to be

12 able to get our wounded to the other bank of the Drina River. We spent

13 the night there that night. When I managed to get my mother and father to

14 the other side of the river on a small boat, during the night at 11.00 at

15 night, my wounded brother Stevan came. We managed to get him to Serbia,

16 too, on a small boat. I returned to Grabovacka Rijeka from the Drina. I

17 spent the night there.

18 In the morning, I set out towards Skelani on foot with my brother

19 Slavko. So I got to Skelani and I don't know what happened after that at

20 Grabovacka Rijeka.

21 Q. Thank you. Is there any reason that you yourself didn't go into

22 Serbia with your parents?

23 A. On the right-hand river bank of the Drina River, that was in

24 Serbia, there was civilian police and military police. And they didn't

25 allow anyone, any individual, to cross the Drina into the other state.

Page 1658

1 They allowed no able-bodied men to cross, that is.

2 Q. Now, if you could briefly tell us after you arrived in Skelani,

3 did you join the territorial forces there -- Territorial Defence, excuse

4 me.

5 A. Not right away, but several days later, yes.

6 Q. And could you just tell us, was -- when you joined, was this

7 voluntary on your part or was it involuntary? Were you mobilised?

8 A. No.

9 Q. No to which question? Were you mobilised?

10 A. It wasn't voluntary.

11 Q. So you were mobilised?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, did you receive anything from the Serb military or -- in the

14 area of Skelani advising you that you had to serve the Territorial

15 Defence?

16 A. When I arrived in Skelani from Grabovacka Rijeka, I crossed into

17 Serbian territory to stay with my brother who had a house in Bajina Basta,

18 and my parents were there too. My brother Stevan was still at the

19 hospital in Uzice. I wanted to go and see him there. In Bajina Basta

20 municipality, I was stopped by a military police patrol. I was ID'd but I

21 had no documents on me at that point. Everything remained behind in my

22 village and burned down. They took me back to Bosnia and Herzegovina

23 territory, more specifically to Skelani. I reported to a recruitment

24 office of some sort that was there, or rather the TO. I was given a

25 uniform with TO Skelani insignia. I was given a rifle. I remained there

Page 1659

1 until the 16th of January, 1993, until the attack on Skelani.

2 Q. Could you tell us -- you said you remained there on January --

3 until January 16th of 1993. Where did you go after you left Skelani?

4 Where did you go?

5 A. Back to Bajina Basta in Serbia.

6 Q. And did there come a time that you returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Well, when did you return? What year and month, if you remember.

9 A. Sometime in late 1995, possibly early 1996. I can't remember the

10 specific date.

11 Q. Did you serve the -- were you a member of the Serb military forces

12 between the periods of June 1992 until after you returned to Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina in 1995? Please don't answer that question. I'm going to

14 restate it more clearly.

15 Were you a member of the Serb military forces following January of

16 1993?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And specifically, this is with respect to the Serb military forces

19 in Bosnia.

20 A. No. I was never a member of any military unit after the 16th of

21 January, 1993.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Could I have a moment, Your Honour?

24 Your Honour, thank you. At this time I would ask the usher's

25 assistance. I would like the witness to be shown a particular document

Page 1660












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1661

1 and we do have copies for Your Honours as well as for the Defence.

2 What is being handed out at the moment is a B/C/S document. We do

3 have an English translation -- an English translation of just the title of

4 the document I should say. If the usher can show the witness -- and I'd

5 like it to have it premarked for identification purposes only.

6 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, could you take a look at that document,

7 specifically the title. Could you -- this document is dated November 4th,

8 1994 -- November 11th, excuse me, 1994. The top left-hand corner of this

9 document.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam, 11/4 here means 11th April, not 4th of

11 November.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, thank you. As you can see, I often

13 revert back to the US way of dating.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you very much.

16 Q. So this document is -- maybe you can just tell us the date. Is it

17 correct it's dated April 4th, 1994 [sic], and it makes reference to the

18 3rd Infantry Battalion. Is that correct?

19 A. I'm not familiar with this.

20 Q. That's fine. But as you're reading it now, at the top left-hand

21 corner it's dated April 4th, 1994 [sic]?

22 A. Yes, I see that.

23 Q. And it has to do with a 3rd -- conscripts receiving a packets of

24 clothing, and it's a list. I would refer you to -- it's not numbered,

25 page numbered, but if you could turn to what is ERN number 01316685.

Page 1662

1 MS. RICHARDSON: If the usher could assist, I would greatly

2 appreciate it. It's midway through the document. The usher will assist

3 you. That's 6685. Thank you.

4 Q. And if you would look midway what is titled -- well, I guess I

5 should say your name is on this page, just not on number 17 of the list of

6 names which is towards the end of the page. Just take a moment.

7 A. I see that. I found it.

8 Q. Thank you. And this refers to an infantry company. I would

9 ask -- there is a signature across from your name, and I would ask if that

10 is your signature and are you familiar -- well, first, is that your

11 signature?

12 A. No. This is not my signature.

13 Q. Do you know who signed -- do you know this signature? Do you know

14 who that is?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you authorise anyone to receive clothing or sign on your

17 behalf for any items from the Serb military?

18 A. No. No one ever asked anything like that of me.

19 Q. And other than the clothing that you received when you were in

20 Skelani in 1993 - the clothing, the rifle - did you receive any items from

21 the Serb military in 1994?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And were you a member of this company that's listed under ERN

24 668 -- 6685 at any point in time?

25 A. No, never.

Page 1663

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Next I would ask the usher's assistance once

3 again.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this?

5 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour, I am not.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So this is not being tendered in evidence.

7 Go ahead.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 I do have another document I would like the witness to be shown

10 and we would like the usher's assistance once again. This document should

11 be marked for identification purposes only. This -- the next document I

12 will show the witness.

13 Q. If you just take a look at that document for a moment, it has to

14 do with conscripts of Fakovici. Is that correct? If you look at the

15 title. Are you familiar with this document?

16 A. No, I'm not.

17 Q. And your name appears on a list of individuals. My first question

18 to you is: Are you familiar with these individuals on the list?

19 A. I know Stanisa Stevanovic. I know Slavko Stevanovic, my brother;

20 and Milica Stevanovic, a relative. I know their names, but I have no idea

21 how they came to be on this list.

22 Q. Were you ever a member of the conscript from Fakovici?

23 A. No, never.

24 Q. And this list purports to be delivery of flour, soap, and other

25 hygienic products. Did you receive any products from the Serb military in

Page 1664

1 1993, hygienic products?

2 A. I never got anything from the Serb army because at the time I was

3 in Serbia, in Yugoslavia, and my mother was with the Red Cross in

4 Bajina Basta.

5 Q. Now, if you look at the date which is towards the end of this

6 document, could you tell us if you were -- please tell us what date that

7 is. Can you read it?

8 A. The 24th of December, 1993.

9 Q. And where were you on this date?

10 A. I was probably working somewhere around Obrenovac in Serbia as a

11 construction worker. I can't remember specifically where, but I know that

12 I left Bajina Basta to go to Obrenovac where my sister lived and I did

13 work there as a construction worker.

14 Q. Can you tell us if you know if any of the people you recognise on

15 the list, were they conscripts from Fakovici, do you know, from the people

16 that you recognise?

17 A. According to what I heard, Stanisa Stevanovic was the only one who

18 was a member of the TO following the attack against our village. He had a

19 work obligation that had been assigned to him. He was doing some sowing

20 or planting or whatever. He was the only person from my village who

21 remained in Fakovici.

22 Q. Thank you. I have another document. Thank you.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, this document --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you intend to do with this document,

25 Ms. Richardson?

Page 1665

1 MS. RICHARDSON: I apologise. I will not have this document

2 tendered; it was marked for identification only.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: It's marked for identification. We just need to

4 mention the ERN number in the Serbian version, which is 01316667. It's

5 not going to be marked further than that if it's not being tendered in

6 evidence as an exhibit.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Next I would request the assistance of the usher

8 again.

9 Your Honour, I had handed out to the Defence as well as Your

10 Honours what is a B/C/S version of a stack of documents as well as the

11 English version. I would have the usher assist us with the -- have the

12 usher assist the witness with reading the B/C/S version and locating the

13 area that I would have a couple questions for him. The ERN number is

14 00685048.

15 Q. It is a list of names. The ERN number for the English version,

16 this is for Your Honours and for the Defence is 000567 and that has been

17 translated.

18 Now, I do just have one remark about this document and the English

19 version versus the B/C/S version. The date at the top of this list, which

20 is I believe attendees of anti-tank combat course, there is a -- there

21 appears to be on the B/C/S version a handwritten indication of the date.

22 On the English translation, the date appears to be different -- well, I

23 should have the witness read and then we can see what date that he -- what

24 date this appears to be to him and then we can take it from there.

25 Mr. Stevanovic, look at the list of the names, and to the top

Page 1666

1 right-hand corner could you tell us -- well, have you seen this document

2 before?

3 A. No, never.

4 Q. And is it -- in B/C/S it says it's a list of the attendees of an

5 anti-tank combat course. Just at the top, the title of the document. Is

6 that what it appears to be to you?

7 A. Yeah, that's what it says.

8 Q. And to the right of that there is a handwritten indication of the

9 date. Could you tell us what that date is.

10 A. The date is beginning with the 14th of August through to the 18th

11 of August, 1995.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 If you look at this list, your name appears. Can you find it.

14 It's under the 5th Infantry Battalion, just in the interests of time. Do

15 you see your name?

16 A. Yes. I see my own first and last name, but there must be other

17 people who have the same name as I do. It could have been any of those

18 other people who go by the same name.

19 Q. All right. My question is: Were you a member of the 5th Infantry

20 Battalion in 1995?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And if you look at the other individuals who are listed under the

23 5th Infantry Battalion, are you familiar with any of those individuals?

24 A. I know none of these people here.

25 Q. Okay. And do you recall where you were in 1995. Were you in

Page 1667

1 Serbia or had you returned to --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which period of 1995?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Of the date of this document which is --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: August of 1995.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: August of 1995.

6 Q. Do you remember?

7 A. I think I was also working as a construction worker somewhere or

8 other at the time.

9 Q. Did you attend any training course with the Serb military in 1995

10 or prior to?

11 A. No, never. I was a member of the JNA. I took an oath and I did

12 my regular military service.

13 Q. And what year was this, so we're clear?

14 A. 1986 and 1987.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: That's all the questions I have with respect to

17 this particular document. Thank you to the usher for her assistance.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this?

19 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. I apologise yet again. I'm not

20 tendering this document.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Stevanovic, I have a final series of questions for you.

22 Did you speak with -- do you recall a conversation in Skelani that you had

23 regarding Bradjevina recently?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And could you tell us what -- who you had this conversation with

Page 1668

1 and where were you and if you recall what day this occurred.

2 A. It was on a Wednesday. I think the 26th or 27th. That must have

3 been the date. I was sitting in cafe called the Dragan's Water in

4 Skelani. While I was there a young man came over with a woman. I didn't

5 know these two. They sat down at a table and asked to speak to the owner.

6 As they talked I realised that the woman had sold her house - she was a

7 Muslim - to the landlord of that cafe. She came to collect her money, the

8 money that he had not yet given to her. And he was accompanied by this

9 driver, or rather the man who was with her.

10 As they talked, someone asked the young man where he was from. He

11 was sitting behind me at a different table. He said he was from a village

12 called Mocevici. I turned around, faced him. I was glad to see him. I

13 asked him who he was, what his name was. And he told me his name was

14 Nezir Jakubovic and that he was Mujcin Jakubovic's son.

15 Before that I had been in Srebrenica. I read the names on the

16 donation lists at the entrance to the municipal building in the corridor,

17 and one of the names was Nezir Jakubovic, but I had a different person in

18 mind who I used to know and he was a good deal older than this person.

19 And I asked this young man now whether he was the recipient of this

20 donation. And he answered: No, I can't tell you exactly whether that man

21 had been killed or whether he was sick, the one I asked him about. He

22 said: My name is Nezir, my last name is Jakubovic, and that it was his

23 name on that list. I congratulated him on that. Obviously I wanted the

24 very same thing, to have my house back and to go back to my property. I

25 asked him where he lived at the time. He said somewhere around Tuzla.

Page 1669

1 I told him what my name was. We started talking. We started

2 saying something about the village of Oparci. I asked him whether he knew

3 anything about the three brothers who had gone missing during the war, and

4 he said he only knew that they had been taken alive to Srebrenica. And

5 nothing was heard of them later.

6 We also talked about other aspects of the story in connection with

7 Bradjevina and Magudovici. He told me that when they were about to attack

8 those two villages his unit from Mocevici commanded by a man named Akif -

9 and I don't know his last name. The Muslim unit from Mocevici was

10 directed towards Kaludra. He told them that they were familiar with the

11 road and that they should attack Kaludra. Once they finished attacking

12 Kaludra, they should go back through Mocevici, or rather through my own

13 village of Bradjevina. He told me that they found no one alive or dead in

14 Kaludra. The people had gone days before the attack; they had left the

15 village. They were astounded themselves to find no one there he said.

16 They went straight back to my own village, Bradjevina. When they entered

17 the village, he said they found Stojan right there in the middle of the

18 village and that his throat had been cut. I asked him if he knew who did

19 that and he wouldn't answer.

20 On the way out they found my oxen out in the meadow. They picked

21 them up and drove them to Mocevici. I asked him who the oxen were staying

22 with and he wouldn't say, but he said that they were being used because

23 they were strong animals. He said that the command centre of the Muslim

24 army had taken them over and used them to drive ammunition from one place

25 to another, used them as draft animals or to transport food and large

Page 1670

1 weapons such as anti-aircraft guns that they couldn't carry, mortars as

2 well -- as well as missiles, or rather shells.

3 That is more or less everything about my encounter with this

4 person. I also asked him whether Naser [Realtime transcript read in error

5 "Nasir"] had been the one who attacked my village. He said he didn't

6 know. Akif took over command from Naser, he said, and was in charge of

7 that particular attack.

8 Q. Let me just --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Since yesterday or last week my

10 attention was drawn to the fact that Nasir and Naser are not the same

11 name, and I see that the transcript says Nasir. Did you say Nasir or

12 Naser?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naser Oric.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So for the transcript that should appear

15 Naser and not Nasir.

16 I'm sorry to interrupt you, Ms. Richardson, but it was important.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I agree, Your Honour. Thank you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You can ask him, because he said 26th and 27th, but

19 he didn't say of which month and which year.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: That's correct. I was going there next.

21 Q. Could you tell us. You said 26th. What month are you referring

22 to, and which year, that you had this conversation with this person in

23 Skelani.

24 A. Yes. It was just recently before I came to testify, maybe two or

25 three days earlier.

Page 1671

1 Q. So are we talking October?

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop here for the time being. We go

4 for our break. We will resume at 11.00.

5 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed, Ms. Richardson, and try to conclude,

8 please.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. In fact, I have just a few

10 questions left.

11 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, you mentioned -- before the break you were talking

12 about a -- you were testifying about a conversation you had with Nezir

13 Jakubovic --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Jakubovic.


16 Q. Jakubovic in Skelani. Now, with respect to the information that

17 he gave you, he told you about three brothers being kidnapped and also

18 seeing the body of Stojan. Did he tell you about any other of the victims

19 that died during the attack in Bradjevina?

20 A. He just told me that he saw these victims.

21 Q. Which victims? Other than Stojan, which victims? Which other

22 victims?

23 A. He saw Slavko.

24 Q. And what did he tell you --

25 A. Slavko Petrovic. He saw Novica Stanojevic.

Page 1672

1 Q. Did he tell you the details surrounding their deaths? Did he give

2 you any information?

3 A. He just told me about Novica, that he would not have been killed

4 had he not taken the road.

5 Q. Which --

6 A. Had he hidden somewhere, they wouldn't have found him.

7 Q. "They" meaning who? So we're clear.

8 A. Novica Stanojevic.

9 Q. And you said: "They would not have found him." Who was he

10 referring to, Nezir. Nezir. Who was "they" he was referring to?

11 A. Himself and the unit that he was in.

12 Q. You mentioned as well that Akif had given Nezir orders or

13 instructions about going to Kaludra. Could you tell us if he mentioned

14 the names or made reference to anyone else as a commander or as part of

15 the Muslim forces.

16 A. He didn't tell him directly. He referred to the entire unit that

17 he was in. Akif issued the order to the unit from Mocevici, that they

18 should all go and attack Kaludra.

19 Q. And did he mention the name of anyone who was maybe the overall

20 commander?

21 A. He said that Akif was the commander of this operation against the

22 Serb villages.

23 Q. And did he mention anyone else who was part of the Muslim forces

24 with respect to the attack?

25 A. He did not mention any other commanders involved to me.

Page 1673

1 Q. And with respect to Akif, did he say who Akif was and what --

2 where he was with respect -- who he was with respect to the Muslim forces,

3 other than the fact that he was the commander. Do you recall what he

4 said?

5 A. Yes, I do recall. He said that Akif and Zulfo Tosun were the two

6 closest associates of commander Naser Oric.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Now, I have one final question, Your Honour. And

9 I would ask the usher's assistance again. It was one of the same

10 documents I referred to earlier. It's the B/C/S version of reference to

11 ERN 6677. It's again the document with a list of names.

12 Q. If you can just locate again your name --

13 MS. RICHARDSON: If the usher could assist us in locating number

14 6685.

15 Q. It's the same page that you referred to earlier. Thank you.

16 And your name is number 17. Above your name, I neglected to ask

17 you earlier, there's another Stevanovic mentioned -- there are two others,

18 actually. Slavko. Are you familiar with Slavko?

19 A. Yes, that's my brother.

20 Q. All right. And was he serving -- was he a member of the Serb

21 forces in 1994, do you know?

22 A. On the 28th of June when we came to Skelani and when we crossed

23 the Drina River, from that moment onwards he never returned to the

24 territory of the present-day Republika Srpska or at that time the former

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 1674

1 Q. So this would -- and across from his name is a signature. Is that

2 his signature? If you're familiar with his signature, is that it?

3 A. No. This is not his signature.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you very much to the usher.

5 Your Honour, this completes my examination-in-chief.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

7 Mr. Jones.

8 Mr. Jones is now going to cross-examine you.

9 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

11 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, I'm going to start by asking you some questions in

12 relation to a map which you've been shown.

13 MR. JONES: So if the witness could be shown P407, please. On the

14 ELMO, sorry.

15 Q. Now, if you could please take the pointer which you used

16 earlier --

17 MR. JONES: We seem to have some -- okay.

18 Q. If you could take the pointer and if you could just move the

19 pointer between Bradjevina and Ratkovici so we can just see the area

20 between those two villages.

21 A. [Witness complies].

22 Q. Bradjevina to Ratkovici in a straight line, actually. If you

23 could trace a line between Bradjevina and Ratkovici.

24 A. [Witness complies].

25 Q. Right. Now, that distance as the crow flies between Bradjevina

Page 1675

1 and Ratkovici is about three or four kilometres, isn't it?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And now could you indicate the route which you would take if you

4 were to walk from Bradjevina to Ratkovici, if you could just trace that on

5 the map.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I think he needs a pen or something with which he

7 can highlight or track the route from Bradjevina to Ratkovici. Give him a

8 black one, please.

9 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

10 MR. JONES: Right. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put your initials at some point along that

12 route, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


16 Q. Right. Now, between Bradjevina and Ratkovici there are in fact

17 hills and woods, aren't there?

18 A. There is nothing. We are on the other side of the river. When we

19 go from Bradjevina to Ratkovici, there is a part from where I cannot see

20 the lower area of Ratkovici.

21 Q. Right. Well, let's move in if we can a bit more on the map, if we

22 can zoom in on Bradjevina while keeping Ratkovici in the picture. I don't

23 know if that's possible. Because I would like to focus in on a number

24 which you see below Bradjevina which is 436 and it's the -- it's marking

25 an elevation. There. I think we can see it now.

Page 1676

1 Now, isn't it right that that marker 436 is an elevation or a hill

2 of 436 metres just south of Bradjevina?

3 A. On the very approaches to Ratkovici there are slopes, big rocks,

4 from which I cannot see Ratkovici. And about 200 metres away from

5 Ratkovici towards Bradjevina, there are meadows and you can see

6 everything. From Bradjevina, I mean.

7 Q. Right. And I'm asking you about these elevations which appear to

8 be marked on the map. I'm asking whether you can confirm that those are

9 hills. So we've looked at one there which says 436. There's another one

10 further down, 374; and then another one to the left, 322. And then

11 further down again 590.2. Now, isn't it right that those are all hills

12 which are between Bradjevina and Ratkovici and that one of those is, well,

13 500 metres or so high? If you know, Mr. Stevanovic. It's a matter within

14 your knowledge whether or not there are hills between Bradjevina and

15 Ratkovici.

16 A. Yes. I mean, I did not quite understand your question. I told

17 you between Ratkovici and Bradjevina, in that area, there are thickets,

18 woods, hills, but I don't think that they are that high up.

19 Q. Well, let me put it this way --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones, because I saw Ms. Richardson

21 stand up.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I was just going to ask for counsel

23 to clarify the question, but I think the witness himself indicated it was

24 unclear. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

Page 1677

1 Yes, Mr. Jones.


3 Q. My point is this: If you're standing in Bradjevina looking over

4 towards Ratkovici, three or four kilometres away, with these features in

5 between, you can't see, can you, what a person is wearing in Ratkovici

6 from Bradjevina?

7 A. Not in the village of Ratkovici.

8 Q. Now, could you also now indicate with a marker how you would get

9 from Ratkovici to Mocevici, the route you would take.

10 A. From Bradjevina to Mocevici?

11 Q. From Ratkovici to Mocevici.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We need the map to -- okay. Let him mark first and

13 then we zoom later. He is going -- yeah. Now, the map needs to go

14 higher. Yeah, that's it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].


17 Q. Thank you. Now, finally, could you mark on the map a place where

18 yesterday you said there were fields which you shared - the villagers in

19 Bradjevina - shared with the people in Magudovici. Could you mark where

20 those -- that common area is.

21 A. Yes.

22 [Witness complies].

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So could this last line that you just plotted

24 on the map, could you give it the letter V, V for Victor, and then put

25 your initials next to it.

Page 1678

1 MR. JONES: Perhaps the witness should also mark the --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes. I'm going to that.

3 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And the previous marking that you made from

5 Ratkovici to Mocevici, could you put your initials next to the line,

6 preferably between Dvoriste and Mocevici, your initials.

7 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Stevanovic.

9 Yes, Mr. Jones.

10 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, yesterday you referred to the meadows where the people from

12 Ratkovici kept their sheds, as I think they were called, where they keep

13 their cattle, and you said that was towards Poznanovici and partly towards

14 Mocevici. Now, could you mark on the map where those meadows of the

15 people from Ratkovici are located.

16 A. People from Ratkovici, Donji Ratkovici. This is a village that

17 cannot be seen from my village. Towards Poznanovici, up there, there is

18 Potocari and Gornji Ratkovici, two more villages, that is. I said

19 yesterday that I saw cattle being herded out of Kaludra, Ratkovici, and

20 Bradjevina, not further up. Not towards Mocevici. That is actually the

21 way they took the cattle out.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes -- yes, Mr. Jones.

23 MR. JONES: I can refer to the transcript, at least the draft

24 transcript which we have from yesterday. It was lines 131059 to 131109.

25 And the witness said: "But where the sheds were in the meadows where

Page 1679

1 people kept their cattle, these -- where I saw this towards Poznanovici

2 and partly towards Mocevici."

3 Q. So I understand you to be saying that those meadows were towards

4 Mocevici and Poznanovici. If that's not correct, then please feel free to

5 correct me and mark on the map where those meadows are.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Try to locate on the map and then mark

7 Poznanovici.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. Poznanovici is, I think, further down if we move

9 the map down a bit.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Put it -- put the name of the village in a circle.

11 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And put your initials next to it, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And the meadows will be where?

15 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put an "M," the letter "M," capital "M,"

17 against that line, please, and also put your initials.

18 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

19 MR. JONES: Now --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: For the record, the witness has put the capital "M"

21 immediately followed by an "S" which is only one of the -- of his

22 initials.

23 Yes, go ahead, Mr. Jones. Let's not complicate it further.

24 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Now, I'm just going to ask you: Is that right? Did the people

Page 1680

1 from Ratkovici really keep their cattle and livestock one or two

2 kilometres from their village on the other side of a hill? Is that

3 actually correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. So they would leave their livestock several kilometres or a couple

6 of kilometres anyway from the village where anyone could at night break in

7 and help themselves?

8 A. No, sir. These are meadows and pastures where the cattle were and

9 where these sheds were made.

10 Q. And at night, then, the cattle would be kept near Ratkovici,

11 right, not in the meadows?

12 A. It depended on the cattle, and it depended on where people could

13 make these sheds, whether they could make sheds in their own backyard or

14 whether they had sheds in the meadow.

15 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that those meadows are, what, a

16 kilometre away from Bradjevina? How far roughly in your estimation.

17 A. As a crow flies, from my village to there, I don't think that

18 there is more than 350 to 400 metres.

19 Q. Well, I think we can all see it on the map what -- the line you've

20 drawn is roughly halfway, or perhaps a little more than halfway, towards

21 Ratkovici. Surely that would make it more like one kilometre or one and a

22 half metres, given that it's three or four kilometres as the cry flies

23 between Bradjevina and Ratkovici.

24 A. The area of the meadows and all the villages - Madjevina [phoen],

25 Bradjevina, Kaludra, Polimci, et cetera - these were enormous meadows,

Page 1681

1 pastures where cattle were grazed and that is where all the people from

2 these villages had their sheds. It's not on the road to Ratkovici, what I

3 drew on the map, that is.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would hate to interrupt.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Just for the purpose of establishing the record.

7 The term "as the crow flies," if we could -- I'm not sure if this will be

8 clear later on in the transcript. Some people may understand what that

9 means, some others may not. The witness --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The important thing is that the witness understands

11 and that we understand, and I think we all understand what the term means.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

14 MR. JONES: Right. Well, I believe this map is to scale anyway,

15 so we can presumably measure the distance.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope, as I said earlier on, that we will be able

17 to go on-site and be able to visualise the terrain and distances for

18 ourselves. But we certainly can rest assured, madam, that we are fully

19 aware of what the term means.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


23 Q. Now, moving on to another subject. You mentioned yesterday a

24 number of incidents which you attributed to the break down of relations

25 between Serbs and Muslims, and you referred to the killing of Goran Zekic

Page 1682

1 as one of them.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about Goran Zekic and his

4 killing. Goran Zekic was the president of the SDS in Srebrenica, wasn't

5 he?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And he led the Serb takeover of Srebrenica on the 18th of April,

8 1992?

9 A. I don't know that.

10 Q. Well, are you aware that Goran Zekic went into Srebrenica from

11 Bratunac with armed men, including Arkan's Tigers from Serbia, and took

12 the town over?

13 A. As far as I know, Goran Zekic worked and lived in Srebrenica. He

14 owned a flat there.

15 Q. Well, do you know of Arkan's Tigers, the gang of Zeljko

16 Raznjatovic?

17 A. Yes. But I read about them in the press.

18 Q. Now, you've spoken today about Muslim extremists, and if I

19 understand correctly for you anyone in a uniform who was a Muslim was an

20 extremist. Is that correct?

21 A. Those who were under the command of Akif and Mr. Oric.

22 Q. Well, your answer earlier was: "Anyone in a uniform fighting for

23 the Muslim army was an extremist." Isn't that your position?

24 A. I don't think you understood me. Each and every person who

25 attacked my village, no matter what the kind of uniform was that they were

Page 1683

1 wearing - black, camouflage, green - for me those people were extremists.

2 They were out to destroy my property, my village, and they succeeded.

3 Q. Let's go back to Zekic and Arkan's Tigers briefly. Would you

4 describe Arkan's Tigers as Serb extremists?

5 A. What I've heard about Arkan is that he was some sort of Mafia all

6 over the world. What sort of an army he had and who was in that army or

7 what they were doing, I really don't know.

8 Q. Surely you're aware that Arkan's Tigers were a paramilitary group

9 with a fearsome reputation for brutal ethnic cleansing of Muslims and not

10 just a Mafia.

11 A. To my mind everyone who was not a member of the TO or any other

12 military formation must have been a member of a paramilitary unit or

13 something like that.

14 Q. Are you also aware that when Arkan's Tigers and Zekic entered

15 Srebrenica they looted and burned and terrorised and killed Muslim

16 civilians. Is that something you're aware of?

17 A. That's not something I'm aware of and I didn't see anything like

18 that.

19 Q. Are you also aware that the Bratunac Crisis Staff used the killing

20 of Zekic as a pretext to attack Glogova on the 9th of May, 1992, as a

21 result of which 65 unarmed Muslim residents were murdered?

22 A. First I hear of it.

23 Q. Are you even sure that it was Muslims who killed Goran Zekic?

24 A. That's what people were saying in the Serb villages at the time.

25 MR. JONES: I wonder if the usher could assist by placing a

Page 1684

1 document on the ELMO. It's a lengthy document in the original, 20 pages

2 or so, so we could only make a partial translation between now and

3 yesterday.

4 Q. I would be grateful, Mr. Stevanovic, if you could have a look at

5 that document. Now, this is a criminal report which was sent, in fact, to

6 the ICTY by Goran Zekic's father, which one can see from the face of the

7 document. And we see the names of the people against whom the complaint

8 is brought. You'll see the names Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 Now, have you heard that Goran Zekic's father blamed the Serb leadership

10 and Delivoje Sorak for killing his son? That he brought charges -

11 including before this Tribunal - against Serbs for the killing of Zekic?

12 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

13 Q. You maintain your opinion that Zekic was killed by Muslims, having

14 seen that document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know better than his father who killed his son?

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object. I think the witness

18 is clear about what he knows.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

21 MR. JONES: I wonder if this could be made an exhibit, Your

22 Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document is being tendered and received

24 as Defence Exhibit D?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 53.

Page 1685












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1686


2 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Now, you also said yesterday -- you referred yesterday as an

4 incident provoking the conflict, that a Serb village, Oparci, was torched

5 by Muslims. You also said you never entered the village but nonetheless

6 you believe that it was torched by Muslims. Is that right?

7 A. Yes. I believe that it was torched by Muslims.

8 Q. Now, are you aware that Muslim villages in your area were attacked

9 by Serb forces at the same time, the same time period?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, you mentioned Osmace yesterday as a purely Muslim village,

12 isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we could --

15 MR. JONES: If D46 could be placed on the ELMO so we can see

16 Osmace.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: D46, please.


19 Q. If you're looking at the exhibit, but Osmace isn't particularly

20 far from your village, is it? If we can move it down a little bit more.

21 You marked it yesterday, Osmace.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if -- I think the witness probably

23 needs a minute since this is a new map to sort of orient himself with the

24 particular village.


Page 1687

1 Q. Yes. Now, Osmace is or was a Muslim village, wasn't it --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Let him find it first, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put your initials on top of the circle

5 that you have just marked, please.

6 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies].

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 And you haven't answered the question. You haven't answered the

9 question that was put to you. You've been asked whether Osmace is or was

10 a Muslim village. So they are actually two questions in One. Is it a

11 Muslim village now, and was it a Muslim village then, because I would

12 imagine you're referring to the relative period.

13 MR. JONES: Yes.


15 MR. JONES: Now, if the witness could now be shown Exhibit D45.

16 Q. I want to draw your attention to two names on the list, they are

17 at number 42 and at 157. If you look at that the first one refers to a

18 Zoric, Nebojsa, from Sevojno [phoen] - I don't know if you see that - who

19 was killed in Osmace on the 7th of May, 1992. Do you see that name?

20 A. Can you tell me the number again, please.

21 Q. 42. Perhaps you can help us with this. Do you know where Sevojno

22 is?

23 A. Sevojno. I know there's a place near Uzice that's called that.

24 Q. In Serbia?

25 A. That's in Serbia.

Page 1688

1 Q. We see that name. Now, if you look at number 157 we see a

2 Milivoje Ilic in Brezani who was also killed in Osmace on the same day,

3 the 7th of the May, 1992.

4 Now, my question to you is this: You live in this area, Osmace

5 isn't that far from you, do you have any idea why a soldier from Serbia

6 and another soldier were getting killed in a Muslim village on the 7th of

7 May, 1992, if they weren't attacking that village?

8 A. I don't believe they were killed in that village at all. It's a

9 Muslim village.

10 Q. So you're saying that this document is in error, is that it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that Osmace was attacked before Oparci was

13 torched?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you're saying it wasn't attacked, not that you don't know.

16 You can state positively that it wasn't attacked, Osmace?

17 A. I know back in my area that Oparci was attacked before any other

18 villages were attacked. As for Osmace, it's far up there. I wasn't

19 there; I didn't hear anything. I was not aware of it. Still it is my

20 submission that Oparci was the first village to be burned and then the

21 other Muslim villages.

22 Q. Can you help us with whether the following Muslim villages were

23 also attacked May and June? I'll read some names out: Jagodnja and

24 Joseva on the 14th of May, 1992, the 22nd of May, 1992, and the 1st of

25 June, 1992. Were you aware of attacks by Serb forces on Muslim villages

Page 1689

1 on those dates?

2 A. I'm not aware of that.

3 Q. Well, let's turn to another place. Sikiric, if we can look at

4 D46. If we can locate that on the map. You're familiar with Sikiric,

5 Mr. Stevanovic?

6 A. Yes. I am familiar with that.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Does he have to mark it on the map or is it --

8 MR. JONES: No, I don't think it's necessary.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you can move straight to the question.

10 MR. JONES: Yes.

11 Q. Are you aware that in Sikiric 240 Muslims were expelled and it was

12 attacked from the 31st of May to 2nd June, 1992, with 11 Muslims being

13 killed. Is that something you're aware of?

14 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

15 Q. Finally are you aware that Poloznic [phoen], Pirici, Zapolje,

16 Podkorjen, Mocevici, Skenderovici, Diovici and Tegare were all attacked by

17 Serb forces in May/June 1992?

18 A. I'm not aware of that.

19 Q. Finally are you aware that Muslims were expelled from Fakovici in

20 May 1992?

21 A. Fakovici, it's a Serb village, it's not a Muslim village.

22 Q. You're saying that there weren't any Muslims living in Fakovici

23 before the war?

24 A. Not one.

25 Q. We have another document which we would be grateful if it can be

Page 1690

1 placed on the ELMO. It's an extract from the 1991 census which we've seen

2 before in this case.

3 If you can look at that document, and you need to turn to the -- I

4 think it's the third page. We see Fakovici near the top. And then the

5 way this document works is you need to note the line, number 5, and then

6 on the other page one sees the results of the 1991 census.

7 Do you see there, Mr. Stevanovic, that according to that census

8 there were 33 Muslims living in Fakovici in 1991, and 120 Serbs, so that

9 nearly a quarter -- or more than a quarter of the population were Muslims.

10 Does that change your answer or is this document also false?

11 A. This is false, too.

12 MR. JONES: Yes. I would be grateful if this document can be

13 given an exhibit number as well.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered and admitted

15 as D54.

16 One moment, Mr. Jones. I'm trying to follow you. But in the

17 English version of this document under Fakovici in the 1981 sector under

18 Croats you have nothing. Under Muslims you have nothing. Then under

19 Serbs you have 149. Under Yugoslavs you have 4. And other -- others and

20 unknown you have 5. I am not seeing any --

21 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour. You need to turn the page to see

22 the 1991 census, and the line is 5, line 5, total of 162; 33 Muslims, 122

23 Serbs, 6 Yugoslavs.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I see. I see what you mean, yes.

25 MR. JONES: And it's the same in the original version. One has to

Page 1691

1 turn over the page to see the 1991 results.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I see, I see. Okay. I understand you better now.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I just may --


5 MS. RICHARDSON: So that we're clear. With respect to the answer

6 the witness gave about the document being false, so that we're clear, it's

7 the information as is contained as Mr. Jones --

8 MR. JONES: Well, I think that --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: -- pointed out is inaccurate, not that the

10 document is false.

11 MR. JONES: The witness's answer was very clear. I said is this

12 document false? He said this document is false, too.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the population of Fakovici in 1991/1992,

14 Mr. Stevanovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Purely Serb. All were Serbs.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: The amount of people living there, the amount of

17 inhabitants of Fakovici. And what do you understand by Fakovici?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fakovici, I mean the village itself.

19 As for the number of those who lived there, I'm not familiar with the

20 exact numbers.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know how many houses there were in Fakovici?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say. I'm sorry. I can't be

23 specific. I never counted the houses or the people. I went to school

24 there, elementary school. That's all I did there.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

Page 1692

1 Mr. Jones, please proceed.


3 Q. Now, Mr. Stevanovic, yesterday when you were asked about incidents

4 which led to a breakdown in relations between Serbs and Muslims you only

5 mentioned incidents in which Serbs were victims. So my question is: Are

6 you not aware of attacks, of killings and expulsions by Serbs of Muslims,

7 or is it you chose not to mention them?

8 A. As for the Muslims in my area - in Sikirici, in Fakovici - in

9 Fakovici there were no Muslims. In the Drina area, they wanted to go over

10 to Mocevici and Osmace so that from there they could fire on all the Serb

11 villages. They did this of their own free will and no one ever touched

12 them, as far as I know.

13 Q. So is it your evidence that no crime was ever committed against a

14 Muslim by a Serb, at least in your area?

15 JUDGE AGIUS: In which period of time, Mr. Jones?

16 MR. JONES: In the first half of 1992 we can say.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the destruction and burning of

18 my village and the area which I lived, nothing.


20 Q. We're not just talking about your village. Yesterday you were

21 talking about events in Oparci, in Zeleni Jadar, Srebrenica. So obviously

22 you're aware of events in a broader area. So my question is: Are you

23 aware that Serbs also committed crimes against Muslims, or is it your

24 position that no such thing ever occurred in the first half of 1992?

25 A. I've heard about the incidents at Jadar and Potocari the incidents

Page 1693

1 involving Goran Zekic, and I know personally about this man who died in

2 the backyard Milosav Milanovic; that was in late May. And those were the

3 incidents that I was aware of.

4 Q. Let me make it easier for you with one final question. Can you

5 mention for us any incident where Muslims were victims or where they were

6 attacked in the first half of 1992? Anything.

7 A. Not one.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, there is a problem. We got the

9 transcript stuck, so this usually takes a couple of minutes to adjust, so

10 please bear with us, Mr. Jones.

11 Mr. Stevanovic, I'm sorry for this interruption which is due to

12 technical reasons, and I apologise to you, Mr. Jones, as well. I know

13 that interruptions are not always welcome.

14 MR. JONES: That's fine.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We had arrived, as far as the transcript is

16 concerned, to a question which you were just putting to the witness. And

17 you were asking the witness -- the witness had answered: Until the

18 destruction and burning of my village and the area which I lived, nothing.

19 And then it's you, Mr. Jones: We are not just talking about your village.

20 Yesterday you were talking about events in Zeleni Jadar. You were

21 aware -- you are aware of a broader area, are you aware that Serbs

22 committed -- and I can recall what you asked and what he answered.

23 Committed crimes against Muslims, and the witness from what I remember

24 hearing told you: The only two instances I know is the killing of Goran

25 Zekic and then he mentioned another name. I don't remember the name.

Page 1694

1 Perhaps he can take it up from there.

2 MR. JONES: Perhaps I can put the question again, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

4 MR. JONES: And maybe even more broadly.

5 Q. The question is simply this, Mr. Stevanovic: Can you tell us of a

6 single instant that you're aware of - and let's make it very broad - from

7 the start of the war to the genocide in Srebrenica of the Muslims in July

8 1995, can you mention any incident --

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --

10 MR. JONES: -- where you heard that Muslims were victims or

11 attacked?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection overruled. Let him answer the question

14 because it's a very important question.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sir, you're asking me questions

16 about a time when I wasn't there. There is no way I can answer these

17 questions for you. I don't know what they're about. You're asking me

18 about incidents having occurred about Muslims perpetrated by Serbs in

19 April/May. In relation to that, I told you where I lived there were none

20 as far as I was aware. I don't know about the broad area; therefore,

21 there you have it. You're asking me about genocide and some other things

22 when you have it clearly on the record that I was not even in Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina at the time to begin with.


25 Q. Well, it's -- the simple answer, Mr. Stevanovic, is that you're

Page 1695

1 not aware of any crimes ever committed against Muslims by Serbs. I take

2 that from your answer. You can answer yes or no. It's a simple question.

3 A. No, I'm not aware.

4 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you some questions about the

5 Bradjevina TO. Now, you told us yesterday that you were in the Bradjevina

6 village guard. Is that right?

7 A. There was no TO in the village. There was only a group of people

8 who stood guard and who protected their own village.

9 Q. Well, next door to you nearby is Grabovacka Rijeka, Vranesevici,

10 right, and they have a village guard as well, do they not? They did in

11 1992.

12 A. Vranesevici had none. Ruljevici had none. Only Bradjevina had

13 one because we were the outermost villages, the outerlying villages. Down

14 there on lower ground, people just kept working their land.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't answer the question as regards

16 Grabovacka Rijeka.

17 MR. JONES: Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did Grabovacka Rijeka have a guard?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it did or not.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown Exhibit D48.

22 Q. Now, that is a list or what at least purports to be a list for TO

23 Grabovacka Rijeka, Vranesevici. Can you look at that document and the

24 names and tell us whether that changes your answer as to whether there was

25 a TO in Grabovacka Rijeka.

Page 1696

1 A. There was no TO back then. They could have had village guards

2 following the attack against Ratkovici and Oparci and after that man was

3 killed in his own yard.

4 Q. Is this document also wrong in the information it contains that

5 there was a TO in Grabovacka Rijeka? Is that your evidence?

6 A. Yes. It's inaccurate.

7 Q. The fact is, Mr. Stevanovic, isn't it, that the village guard is

8 the same thing as the TO?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Well, I'm going to show you a series of documents. The first one

11 dated 16th of April, 1992. I'll read the ERN number for the record.

12 00574584 to 00574585. If you look at that document. This concerns the

13 establishment of the TO. It's dated the 16th of April, 1992. I'll draw

14 your attention in particular to -- it's page 2 in the English, the

15 decision. We see two paragraphs there. Firstly, the state of an imminent

16 threat of war is hereby declared. And secondly, there's general public

17 mobilisation of the TO in the entire territory of the Serbian Republic of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And finally we see there that all military

19 conscripts are duty-bound to make themselves available to the municipal TO

20 staffs in the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Now, if you look at that, my question for you is the following:

22 This decision doesn't mention a village guard or village guards, and it's

23 right, isn't it, that in fact after the 16th of April, 1992, all

24 able-bodied men, Serbs, were conscripted into TOs?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, before the witness

Page 1697

1 attempts to answer.


3 MS. RICHARDSON: I believe counsel is trying to elicit from the

4 witness information about a village guard being mentioned in a document

5 that I think will take the witness more than a minute or so to review. So

6 if counsel is asking the witness to first review the document and see if

7 there is no mention of the village guard, I think that that would be more

8 appropriate.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we can tell the witness -- since I am very

10 familiar with this document myself, I can tell the witness that there is

11 no mention of village guard anywhere.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So he doesn't need to waste his time --

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm trying to looking for those words because he

16 isn't going to find it.

17 MR. JONES: Yes. My point is precisely that there is no mention

18 of a village guard in the document, that there were only TOs.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And actually the point that Mr. Jones is trying to

20 make out of you, Mr. Stevanovic, is again whether you will agree that

21 village guards are not mentioned here, or guards are not mentioned here

22 because precisely they and the territory force -- territorial -- the TO

23 were one and the same thing.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village guard and the

25 Territorial Defence were never the same thing nor would they ever be. The

Page 1698

1 village guard is only a group of people who sit around the village. These

2 are small groups of people, nothing more than that. It's not the

3 Territorial Defence. They don't belong to the Territorial Defence. These

4 are people who are from their own village only. They were not mobilised,

5 no such thing.


7 You've got your answer, Mr. Jones.


9 Q. May I ask you this then: Why were those people exempted from a

10 mobilisation which applied to all able-bodied Serbs in the Serbian

11 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. Had a timely mobilisation of the Territorial Defence taken place,

13 I would have been the happiest man of all because I would have defended my

14 house and I would have still had it.

15 MR. JONES: I wonder if this document could be given an exhibit

16 number.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So this is being tendered and received and marked as

18 Defence Exhibit D55.

19 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.


22 Q. Are you also aware, Mr. Stevanovic, that when the Bosnian Serb

23 army, the VRS, was established, all TOs became part of the VRS?

24 A. When I came to Skelani I got a uniform with insignia of the

25 Territorial Defence of the Army of Republika Srpska.

Page 1699

1 Q. Precisely. So the TO was part of the Army of Republika Srpska?

2 I'm not sure if your answer was heard.

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear anything.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Was your answer "da"?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 MR. JONES: I wonder if the usher could place another exhibit on

7 the ELMO. It's ERN 00408083 and it's a decision dated 12th of May, 1992.

8 Q. I draw your attention to Article 2 of that document where it said

9 that: "Units and headquarters of the Territorial Defence are hereby

10 renamed into commands and units of the army," that's the Bosnian Serb

11 army, "the organisation and formations of which shall be determined by the

12 president of the republic."

13 And that's following the establishment of the Army of the Serbian

14 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is it right that that confirms what

15 you've just told us, that the TO was part of the VRS?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. JONES: And if that document could also be given an exhibit

18 number.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered, received, and

20 marked as Defence Exhibit D56.

21 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. And it's also true, isn't it, Mr. Stevanovic, that all Serbs were

23 mobilised into the VRS?

24 MS. RICHARDSON: During what period of time, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones, that's a perfectly legitimate

Page 1700

1 question.

2 MR. JONES: Yes. In the first half of 1992. In fact, April 1992.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You'll have to repeat your question.

4 I've lost you.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... have been

6 mobilised into the VRS in 1992, because the VRS came into existence in

7 May.

8 MR. JONES: Well, there's a general mobilisation --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, but that's another thing.

10 MR. JONES: It might assist if we put the next exhibit on the

11 ELMO. I think it's D4 already. Yes.

12 Q. It's right, isn't it, that this is an order of the republic of

13 Serb people of Bosnia and Herzegovina - in fact the Bratunac Crisis

14 Staff - dated the 16th of April, 1992, and it orders that all citizens

15 who have come of age were to be mobilised without any upper age limit and

16 it's in fact not even confined to men. And further on one sees that

17 persons who didn't answer the call were -- faced arrest. Now, were you

18 aware of that mobilisation?

19 A. You're putting questions to me here as if I wrote these orders, as

20 if I sent them to villages, to people, and mobilised them. I keep telling

21 you the same thing. There was no mobilisation in my area in that time, in

22 that period, from the beginning of 1992 until my village was burned down.

23 Q. So your answer is that in fact although -- your answer is that

24 there was no mobilisation in your area before June 1992?

25 A. As far as I know, there wasn't any mobilisation.

Page 1701

1 MR. JONES: Would Your Honours bear with me for one moment.

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. JONES: If we could place another document on the ELMO.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime are you tendering this

5 document?

6 MR. JONES: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we have -- or is it been tendered -- it's been

8 tendered already?

9 MR. JONES: My apologies. It's D4.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

11 MR. JONES: Now the next document is 01785256 and it's dated 11th

12 of June, 1992.

13 Q. Now, Mr. Stevanovic, are you aware of where Milici is first of

14 all?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, according to this document the public security station were

17 to arrest draftees who didn't respond to the invitation to join the Serb

18 army. My question is: Are you not aware that at that time Serbs who

19 were -- did not answer the call were being arrested by the SJB?

20 A. Serbs were only captured by the Yugoslav police on the other side

21 of the Drina and the military police, and they were the ones who returned

22 them. As for the Serbs themselves in Republika Srpska, there were all

23 sorts of things going on, people were trying to escape. Nobody could

24 force them to fight, nobody could catch them, and nobody had the right to

25 do it.

Page 1702

1 Q. So people were trying to escape the draft?

2 A. Everybody who did escape did escape, and those who didn't, didn't.

3 Q. So you accept that there was a draft?

4 A. I did not issue any orders for mobilisation or anything, and I do

5 not know anything about this. I don't know anything about Milici. And

6 after the war, after all these problems, I go up there above Sarajevo to

7 Pale, to Milici to work there as a construction worker. I don't know who

8 this commander is. I don't know anything about this. I lived in the

9 village of Ratkovici, or rather the village of Bradjevina, not in Milici

10 or anywhere else that far away.

11 MR. JONES: And, Your Honour, if that document could be given an

12 exhibit number as well, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being tendered, received, and

14 marked as Defence Exhibit D57. Is that correct, registrar? Thank you.

15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Now, moving to your village at the time of the attack on the 27th

17 of June, 1992, you had an automatic gun, machine-gun, didn't you, on that

18 day?

19 A. No. No. I did not have a machine-gun. I had a Smajser, an

20 automatic rifle.

21 Q. Right. And it's right, isn't it, that the other men in the

22 Bradjevina village guard also had weapons?

23 A. Only Stanisa Stevanovic had one rifle, and that's it.

24 MR. JONES: I'll be grateful if the witness can be shown a copy of

25 his 2001 statement which he made to the Prosecution.

Page 1703

1 Q. First of all, I will ask: Do you recall making a statement to the

2 Prosecutor of this Tribunal in 2001?

3 A. In Skelani. I gave a statement to someone who came. I don't know

4 who this was.

5 MR. JONES: One moment, please, Your Honour.

6 Q. Now, if you look at that statement, and I'll direct your attention

7 in the Serbian version to the second page -- it's actually the first page

8 but it says 2. The bottom paragraph. And there it's right, isn't it, that

9 you say: "We had commenced a village guard which would patrol our homes

10 during the night but we were not armed as none of us were hunters, so we

11 didn't have any weapons."

12 Do you recall making that statement --

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but before the

14 witness answers this question I would just like to state with respect to

15 this issue, I provided proofing notes with corrections to the ICTY

16 statement with respect to this issue to counsel.

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, corrections. We, of course, don't accept

18 that these are corrections or anything of that nature. I'm quite properly

19 putting to this witness the fact that he said something --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: We are not aware of these corrections in any case.

21 Go ahead with the question. I'm pretty sure that if he could explain to

22 you he can explain to us. In any case he has already given evidence as to

23 who went to procure these weapons and from where.


25 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you made that statement and you made it

Page 1704

1 stating that it was a truthful statement and that you signed it. Now, do

2 you remember saying that, that the village guard did not have any weapons?

3 A. I am answering the questions that you put to me here, and I answer

4 the same question several times and you still don't understand what I'm

5 saying and you're asking the same questions again. How can I know? I

6 mean, why would I say that I had a weapon and then I say that I did not

7 have a weapon? What reason is there for me to say that kind of thing? I

8 said quite clearly what the situation was with weapons, so what kind of a

9 question is this now? I don't really understand.

10 Q. My question to you is: Why did you say to an investigator of this

11 Tribunal that the village guard did not have any weapons when in fact you

12 did have weapons?

13 A. Maybe I misunderstood the question. Maybe I thought that this

14 person asked me about the entire village guard. I myself did have a

15 weapon.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move, Mr. Jones.

17 MR. JONES: Well, Your Honour, I did think it was a matter worth

18 pursuing a little further. This is a statement taken by a professional

19 investigator of the Tribunal, and it is very clear that this is what the

20 witness said.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.


23 Q. So my next question is: Why did you lie in your statement?

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I won't allow you. He himself has just explained to

25 you that he may have not understood the question that was being asked of

Page 1705

1 him. That he probably understood that the question related to the entire

2 guard. Why do you attribute lying to him?

3 MR. JONES: Because it's a very clear statement.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: It's -- come on, no. Move to the next question but

5 I will not allow you to put this question to him or the way you put it

6 anyway.


8 Q. Can you tell us, then, please, where you got your weapons from

9 since you weren't hunters.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered this question yesterday.

11 MR. JONES: Yes. Well, if you like, Your Honour, I can lead him

12 on -- a bit further on that question.

13 Q. Do you know Slavko Jovanovic, the owner of the Medina restaurant

14 cafe in Fakovici, and are you aware that he was distributing weapons to

15 Serbs in early 1992?

16 A. Slavko Jovanovic? I knew him, but I do not know that he

17 distributed weapons.

18 Q. Are you aware then that many Serbs in the Fakovici area got their

19 weapons from Jovanovic?

20 A. No. No. I'm not aware of that.

21 Q. And it is right, isn't it, that in 1992 - let's say in June 1992 -

22 many more Serbs were armed than they were in, say, 1991 or 1990?

23 A. Could you please repeat that question. I didn't quite understand

24 it.

25 Q. Well, I'll rephrase it. Isn't it right that Serbs in your area

Page 1706

1 were in fact arming themselves in the first half of 1992 in preparation

2 for conflict?

3 A. No. As far as I know, whoever had money tried to get a weapon and

4 bought a weapon. Where they bought weapons and from who is something I

5 don't know.

6 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that you were a member of the SDS.

7 That's right, isn't it?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. So you know Slavko Jovanovic also through the SDS, I presume?

10 A. The SDS, no. I don't know him through the SDS.

11 Q. You also told us that you didn't pay any dues to this -- to the

12 SDS. Is that right? And if so, why were you exempted from paying dues?

13 A. It is correct that I never paid any dues because nobody ever asked

14 me to pay any. I was only a member of the SDS. As for payment, no one

15 ever asked me for any such thing nor ...

16 Q. In that capacity as a member of the SDS in that area, you're

17 aware, are you not, that the SDS organised a training camp in Ruljevici?

18 A. No. I did not know about that.

19 Q. I wonder if you could be shown P407, the map, and if you could

20 mark Ruljevici on the map. I could probably help the witness. It's a bit

21 further down. Perhaps if you look to the right of Vranesevici and down a

22 little bit. Well, if you can't find it on the map, then not to worry.

23 It's near you, isn't it, Ruljevici, it's near Bradjevina?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it possible that there could have been a training camp there

Page 1707

1 for soldiers and that you would be unaware of it?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, could we just have a time period?

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. Which period of time are you

4 referring to?

5 MR. JONES: Well, in the first half of 1992 perhaps.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: In the first half of 1992. And the question

7 is: "Is it possible that there could have been a training camp there for

8 soldiers and that you would be unaware of it"?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly. But this belongs to the

10 Bratunac municipality, not the Srebrenica municipality, you see. Or

11 perhaps there was something going on that they tried to hide away from the

12 people, you see.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that you meant a Serb -- a Serbian

14 training camp?

15 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: When Mr. Jones put the question to you, he was

17 referring to a Serbian training camp and your answer remains as it is?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The answer is the same.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, go ahead.


21 Q. Staying with P407 and looking again at Mocevici, if you could

22 locate that on the map.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's proceed. We all know where it is and

24 he has located it before.


Page 1708

1 Q. Now, Mocevici is up in the hills, isn't it?

2 A. Yes, on the hill.

3 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that some of the villages you pointed

4 out and which you've circled on the map - Oparci, Magudovici, Dvoriste,

5 Ducici - were all Serb villages?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It's also right, isn't it, that in June 1992, if you're a Muslim

8 from Mocevici, because of these tensions you couldn't simply walk into the

9 Ratkovici or Dvoriste or you would risk getting shot by the village guard

10 on a patrol? In any event, you couldn't pass freely as a Muslim from

11 Mocevici into Serb villages?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm not sure this question is clear.

13 MR. JONES: Well, I think the witness was about to answer.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let him answer and let's see whether he has

15 understood the question or not, Ms. Richardson.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean a Muslim coming to any

17 one of these Serb villages, of course any person could come to any one of

18 these villages, sit there, talk to people, go and do whatever. I mean, if

19 that was the intention of the person who was coming. Or the other way

20 around. A Serb could go to visit them, or a Muslim could come and visit

21 us. Do you understand? Until the killings started. Once the killings

22 started, no one went to see anyone any longer.


24 Q. That's precisely what I'm asking to. You've referred to incidents

25 in May and perhaps in early June. If we talk about the period just before

Page 1709

1 the attack on your village, when there had been killings, when there were

2 tensions, it's right, isn't it, that a Muslim in Mocevici could not just

3 freely pass into these Serb villages without risking his life?

4 MR. JONES: I would be grateful if my learned friend would cease

5 interrupting. In fact, I'm waiting for the interpretation; that's he

6 delay.


8 Go ahead with your answer.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Dvoriste where the

10 man was killed, I don't think that it would have crossed any Muslim's mind

11 to go to that village at that time. As for Bradjevina, Magudovici, they

12 could always come, and they came as they came, with weapons, and they

13 started killing.


15 Q. The fact is, isn't it, as we can see on this map, that Mocevici

16 was surrounded by Serb villages, certainly in June 1992, and it's right

17 also, isn't it, that Muslim refugees from the places I mentioned earlier -

18 Tegare, Pirici, and Zapolje - were in that area and were unable to move

19 freely?

20 A. Mocevici was never surrounded by Serb villages. All these Serb

21 villages are in a valley below Mocevici towards Drina. And there were

22 never any Muslim villages. There are mixed villages. Mocevici are

23 further up in relation to us. And then all the way to Srebrenica there

24 are Muslim villages.

25 Q. So Muslims in Mocevici would not be able to pass to the Drina,

Page 1710












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1711

1 they wouldn't be able to go to Fakovici, they wouldn't be able to go to

2 get provisions from the stores in Fakovici? They were stuck where they

3 were?

4 A. That's not correct. Mocevici had a road leading to Srebrenica,

5 Bjelovac, Sase, and all these other places. There was never a road for a

6 motor vehicle or any kind of bigger vehicle between Bradjevina, Ratkovici,

7 Mocevici. There are only these three or four Serb villages that had no

8 road, and we only had a road to Grabovacka Rijeka. Nowhere else. We were

9 the only ones that were cut off. At any moment they could go through

10 these villages. People went to the market. They took their cattle to

11 Fakovici and back. I don't know what you mean when you say they couldn't

12 pass there when they could.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Basically the witness is also telling you,

14 Mr. Jones, that if they couldn't go to Fakovici, they could go in the

15 opposite direction and get supplies from other places.


17 Q. In relation to that, isn't it the case, Mr. Stevanovic, that at

18 this time, June 1992, Muslims could not go to Srebrenica because the Serbs

19 held Pribicevac, Sase, and Brezani on the other side and therefore

20 prevented them from passing through to Srebrenica?

21 A. As far as I know, all the Serb villages were at risk and were

22 surrounded and Muslims had a road open to go to Srebrenica or anywhere

23 else.

24 Q. Very well. I'm going to ask you about Magudovici. That's a

25 neighbouring hamlet of Bradjevina, isn't it, and it's something like 300

Page 1712

1 to 500 metres away from Bradjevina?

2 A. Yes, thereabouts.

3 Q. And isn't it right that before the 27th of June, 1992, there was

4 an armed infantry unit and observation post at Magudovici and artillery,

5 namely a 120-millimetre gun?

6 A. No, that's not correct.

7 Q. So you're saying that there was no infantry unit, no observation

8 post, and no artillery in Magudovici in this period?

9 A. Our observation posts, to put it that way, those were a trench

10 here and there in the village. You could observe from there because

11 Mocevici -- from Mocevici you could see the village across the way. I'm

12 not sure what you mean when you say "observation post." I saw no

13 observation posts in the area, or weapons for that matter, nor did I

14 notice any.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes --

16 MR. JONES: I'm just about to move on to another subject.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can take the break.

18 Now, how much longer do you have?

19 MR. JONES: Approximately another hour I would say, perhaps a bit

20 less.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You will have to cut that down because we only have

22 three-quarters of an hour.

23 MR. JONES: Yes. I'll do my best, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Plus we have some questions, too. So let's have a

25 25-minute break. All right.

Page 1713

1 And you have a re-examination as well?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: I do in fact, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will need to regulate that. Allow us five

4 minutes for ourselves.

5 How much do you require?

6 MS. RICHARDSON: At this moment I require 10 minutes based on what

7 counsel has elicited so far. And if he continues to go into other areas,

8 I might find it necessary to re-examine. But at the moment it's 10

9 minutes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This witness is going definitely to finish today.

11 There is no way we will allow him to come again next time. So that leaves

12 us 15 minutes at the maximum for Prosecution and ourselves. Basically,

13 that leaves you with half an hour.

14 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: So try to -- 25 minutes, and please try to be

16 punctual, all of you.

17 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions now about the finding of

22 Stojan Stevanovic on the 27th of June, 1992. I'm going to refer you again

23 to your -- the statement you made in 2001, and you'll be shown a copy of

24 that statement. And in the English version it's page 3, bottom three

25 paragraphs. In the Bosnian version it's also page 3, bottom three

Page 1714

1 paragraphs, carrying on to the next page.

2 Now, if you would read just to yourself where it starts in

3 English: "We then decided to escape using the bushes for cover as we went

4 along the brook towards the stream which leads down to the Drina river."

5 If you read there down -- and there's the next couple of

6 paragraphs. What I'll do is rather than reading all of that I'll

7 summarise the main points and ask you some questions about what you said

8 in 2001 about finding Stojan Stevanovic.

9 Now, according to that statement: On the 27th of June, 1992,

10 after the attack on Bradjevina, you and other men went to

11 Grabovacka Rijeka and then you came back several hours later, around 6.00

12 or 7.00 p.m. And when you left Bradjevina, you didn't know that Stojan

13 was dead, but when you came back to Bradjevina you discovered that he had

14 been killed. And in fact you found him at the corner, I think it was, of

15 Zivko Stevanovic's house. You found him. And also according to what you

16 said then in 2001, Stanisa Stevanovic left 15 minutes before you to go

17 back to Bradjevina from Grabovacka Rijeka. Before he left he didn't say

18 anything about Stojan being dead. And in fact, he had been in Fakovici

19 that day getting food.

20 Do you see that in your statement? The last part: "At this time

21 I was with Stanisa Stevanovic who had been in Fakovici that day getting

22 food from the only store." So Stanisa had not in fact even been in

23 Bradjevina during the attack. So my question to you is: Isn't it right

24 that in fact you didn't know that Stojan Stevanovic was dead until you

25 returned to Bradjevina in the evening. And Stanisa was in Fakovici all

Page 1715

1 day on the day of the attack. Isn't that correct?

2 A. Where I was next to my house, I didn't see where Stanisa was at

3 the time nor where Stojan was once I was back from Grabovacka Rijeka.

4 Back there they had told me that people had left for Bradjevina to pull

5 people out, those who had survived. And then I returned towards

6 Bradjevina. I met Stanisa at the way into the village of Vranesevici. He

7 was pushing a cart ahead of him, and he told me that Stojan had been found

8 with his throat cut in the middle of the village next to Zivko's house.

9 Q. First of all, Stanisa had been in Fakovici that day getting food.

10 Isn't that correct?

11 A. I don't know. I think he was in the village.

12 Q. The village of Fakovici?

13 A. No. No. Bradjevina.

14 Q. Then why did you say to the investigator: "This time I was with

15 Stanisa Stevanovic who had been in Fakovici that day getting food"?

16 A. What I said at the time I saw Stojan, Stanisa was pushing a cart,

17 and with him I came to Grabovacka Rijeka. And with those people who were

18 with Stanisa, Borivoje Milanovic and Sreten Stjepanovic.

19 Q. My question was: Why did you say Stanisa was in Fakovici that day

20 getting food from the only store if that wasn't the case?

21 A. I don't think I ever said that.

22 Q. So are you saying that the investigator wrongly recorded that

23 fact?

24 A. How should I know?

25 Q. You signed this statement, didn't you, and it was read to you in

Page 1716

1 your language?

2 A. All the statements were read back. I might as well have signed a

3 hundred different statements as well as this one. I probably didn't read

4 all of it.

5 Q. You described Stanisa today as just a person, but in fact he's

6 more than that, isn't he? He's a relative of yours and he's lived in the

7 same hamlet as you for all your life. Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes, I said a person. Am I supposed to say that in relation to

9 each person, if we're related or not. Of course he's a person. What else

10 should he be?

11 Q. You can tell us now whether he is a relative of yours and if so

12 what sort of a relative.

13 A. Yes, Stanisa is a relative. There were 12 families in my family,

14 six of them called Milanovic and six called Stevanovic. There were only

15 two families in that village, and of course all these Stevanovics were

16 related in some way.

17 Q. Isn't what's happened is that Stanisa has spoken to you and told

18 you that he's changed his story about finding Stojan and he's now asked

19 you to change your story, too?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Now, you referred also in your 2001 statement and also today to

22 people who died on the 27th of June, 1992. And that's on page 5 of your

23 statement, at least in the English version.

24 MR. JONES: I'm going to ask if the witness can be shown D45. If

25 that could be placed on the ELMO -- yes, on the ELMO is best.

Page 1717

1 Q. Now, if you look at this document, this is a list of killed

2 soldiers from the military post Bratunac. And I'm going to ask you to

3 look at line 557 first of all. And I think you'll see there Stojan

4 Stevanovic, number 557, son of Dragomir. That's the Stojan you've

5 referred to today, isn't it, killed on the 27th of June, 1992, in

6 Ratkovici?

7 A. Yes. In the village of Bradjevina.

8 Q. Now, if I could refer you to number 125 on the list. You'll see

9 the name there Ljubisa Gajic born in Ratkovici and who died in Ratkovici

10 on the 27th of June, 1992. And is that the same Ljubisa Gajic, son of

11 Predrag, that you've referred to today? Born in 1966 in Ratkovici. So it

12 should be line 125. Is that the Ljubisa Gajic who you referred to today?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And now number 550. You can see Novica Stanojevic. Is it right

15 that he's the son of Vitomir born in Magudovici and died on the 27th of

16 June, 1992, according to that, in Magudovici?

17 A. Yes. They were all killed in Magudovici or in Bradjevina.

18 Q. Now I'm going to ask you to look at number 435 on the list. We

19 see there the name Vladimir Pavlovic, also died on the 27th of June, 1992,

20 in Magudovici Brdo. Now, you referred to someone called Vukoman, the

21 nickname Vlado, but is that the person you're referring to, Vladimir, son

22 of Obrad? Is that the Vlado Pavlovic you referred to as dying on the 27th

23 of June?

24 A. Vlastimir Pavlovic, not Vukoman or Vlado.

25 Q. But my question to you: Is that the same person that you referred

Page 1718

1 to today as Vlado? Vladimir Pavlovic, son of Obrad, as one of the people

2 who died on 27th of June, 1992?

3 A. I meant Vlastimir and his nickname was Vlado.

4 Q. And then finally I'll refer you to line 234. There we have Rado

5 Jovanovic who died in Bradjevina on the 27th of June, 1992. Now, would

6 that be the Rade Jovanovic who you referred to in your 2001 statement from

7 Stanatovici?

8 A. Yes. Rade Jovanovic, but I don't know his father's name. The one

9 who was killed in Bradjevina, his name was Rade Jovanovic, that's how I

10 knew him.

11 Q. So it's right, isn't it, that out of the six or so people you

12 mentioned who died on the 27th of June, 1992, that at least four of them

13 were soldiers of the VRS?

14 A. None of them were, those who were killed, none.

15 Q. So again, is the information contained in this document false

16 according to you?

17 A. Yes, it's false.

18 Q. Can you think why the VRS would invent a document, invent

19 information, which is false? Can you think of any explanation for why

20 that would be?

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I would object. This calls for

22 speculation.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained, Mr. Jones.


25 Q. Now, just going back to Gajic briefly, Ljubisa Gajic, if you look

Page 1719

1 again at your 2001 statement. And in English it's page 4, paragraph 5.

2 There you say that you were told that Ljubisa Gajic had been seen: "Been

3 killed on the road and shot with a sniper rifle, that he died and then his

4 body was set alight."

5 Whereas today you've told us that he was burned alive. And my

6 question to you is: You've changed your account today, have you not, to

7 exaggerate the circumstances under which Mr. Gajic died?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So which is the correct account? The one in your 2001 statement

10 or what you've said today?

11 A. Ljubisa Gajic was not killed on any road. It's an unsealed road,

12 a dirt track. That's all it is He was burned alive tied to a cornstalk.

13 I heard him scream. I heard him cry for help. Milutin, who watched all

14 the while, told me that this man Ramco was there and had seen him. And he

15 said: But Ljubisa is walking down the road like King Marko. That's what

16 he said. He said: I'll have his mother now. And then he fired at him

17 and he wounded him. And that was the voice I heard. And what Milutin

18 said was the truth. They tied him to a cornstalk after that. Whether he

19 was alive or dead, at that time I don't know. Whether he was alive or

20 dead by the time he was burned alive tied to a cornstalk.

21 Q. In fact, you don't know any of this firsthand, do you? It's all

22 what you've been told?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, I want to ask you now about the conversation which you say

25 you had with a Nezir Jakubovic in Skelani. You described him as a young

Page 1720

1 man. How old would you say he is?

2 A. About 30.

3 Q. So he would have been about 18 during the war -- during the attack

4 on your village in June 1992?

5 A. Yes, thereabouts.

6 Q. So he's certainly not someone who is more in the region of 59

7 years old? You're not mistaken about his age to that extent?

8 A. How could I possibly be mistaken about something like that? I

9 don't know what his age was.

10 Q. Well, I'm going to show you another document. If that could be

11 placed on the ELMO. And it's an extract from the census.

12 Now, if you look at this document, it's page 3, line -- the third

13 line from the bottom. You see a Nezir Jakubovic who according to this was

14 born in 1945. So that's not the person you're talking about, is it?

15 A. This person on the list that I talked about, I don't think that's

16 the same person. No.

17 Q. I'll refer you now to the first page of this document where

18 there's a -- in the third line a Mucin Jakubovic from Mocevici and ask you

19 to look further down the page and you see what I think may be his

20 children; in any event, a Zikrit Jakubovic [phoen], a Majro Jakubovic

21 [phoen], and Mirzad Jakubovic [phoen] from Mocevici. It's not any of

22 those people who you claim to have spoken to, is it, in Skelani?

23 A. Yes. These were not the people that I spoke to.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I hate to interrupt, but could we --

25 there's no title to this document. Does counsel have any information?

Page 1721

1 We've been given a list.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. He said it is from the census. What is this

3 document exactly, Mr. Jones?

4 MR. JONES: It's from the 1991 census and it's listing persons

5 with that name, Jakubovic. Yes, all the Jakubovics in the village

6 Mocevici and Skenderovici. So I was drawing the witness's attention to

7 the one, Nezir Jakubovic, that appears on that list.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Let's move.


12 Q. You say that Nezir told you that Akif commanded the attack on your

13 village on the 27th of June and that he was an associate of Zulfo of Naser

14 Oric. Now, that you said he told you by him, according to you. If that

15 information was wrong, you wouldn't know, would you?

16 A. I personally don't know who were Mr. Oric's associates or

17 assistants. I only know what Nezir told me, that Akif commanded the

18 operation against Bradjevina and that these two persons were close

19 associates of Mr. Oric.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you tendering this?

21 MR. JONES: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That will be D58.

23 MR. JONES: I'm obliged, Your Honour.

24 Q. Now, finally you've told us that you were in Serbia for much of

25 the war and that you were not in the VRS. Is that right?

Page 1722

1 A. Yes. That's right.

2 Q. So you maintain that you weren't in the 3rd Battalion, 4th

3 Infantry Company of the Bratunac Brigade in 1993, 1994, 1995?

4 A. No.

5 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown another couple of

6 documents. One I'm --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I wasn't.


9 Q. Now, this first document you're being shown a list of persons in

10 the reserve force of the 3rd Infantry Battalion, 4th Infantry Company. If

11 you look at number 15 you see Milenko Stevanovic, son of Radivoje. Your

12 father is Radivoje, isn't he?

13 A. That's right, Radivoje.

14 Q. And it says that you were a platoon commander in the 3rd Infantry

15 Battalion, 4th Infantry Company.

16 Is there something funny, Mr. Stevanovic?

17 A. Well, it's funny. I never held any kind of rank nor was I ever a

18 member of that unit. So, yes, the whole thing seems strange.

19 Q. I'm going to show you another document now.

20 MR. JONES: Can that document be given an exhibit number, please.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That will be D59.

22 MR. JONES: And this last document I'm afraid we only have one

23 copy because we retained it at the last minute. If it's put on the ELMO,

24 then at least everyone can see it. We'll do our utmost to provide a

25 translation as soon as possible.

Page 1723

1 JUDGE AGIUS: What's this document, to start with?

2 MR. JONES: One moment, please, Your Honour.

3 [Defence counsel confer]

4 MR. JONES: I think my colleague might be able to explain a bit

5 better. I'll hand over to her for a moment.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Very quickly, please.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is a list of

8 payments in relation to the Bratunac Brigade in July 1995.

9 Can the usher please turn to page 1 of the document and it will

10 explain itself. And then perhaps the interpreters can read from the ELMO.

11 It's a list, military post 7042, in relation to the month of July 1995.

12 Therefore, this is a list in relation to military post 7042 for the month

13 of July 1995. And this number is in relation to the Bratunac Brigade.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this document.

15 MR. JONES: So --

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, again, I would hate to interrupt,

17 but if we don't have a copy of this document or unless I'm mistaken, could

18 we at least be shown, the Prosecution, the document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: You're seeing it there. He's only got one copy and

20 copies will be made and distributed later.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. That's fine, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's proceed.

23 MR. JONES: So again --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go back to the page, to the relevant page,

25 where there appears to be the name of Stevanovic, Radivoje and Milenko,

Page 1724

1 and then KV, which is commander of the platoon.


3 Q. So my question again to you, Mr. Stevanovic, is: Do you maintain

4 still that you were not a member of the Bratunac Brigade at any time

5 during the war in Bosnia?

6 A. Yes. I abide by that and it is simply true that I was never a

7 member.

8 Q. Do you maintain that you weren't in Potocari in July 1995?

9 A. Yes. It is my submission that I was not there.

10 MR. JONES: One moment, please, Your Honour. I'll just confer.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. JONES: No further questions, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

14 What are we going to do with this document? Are you going to

15 tender that particular document in evidence or do you want to photocopy it

16 and then tender the photocopy because it's marked?

17 MR. JONES: Yes, the latter, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The latter. So we take it that document will be --

19 yes, will be received in evidence to be marked as Defence

20 Exhibit D60, D60. We will all have copies of the document. Mr. Siller

21 will be taking care of that so we don't even have to worry about it.

22 MR. JONES: I'm much obliged, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson, go head. You have 10 minutes.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And I thank you, Mr. Jones. I forgot to thank you

Page 1725

1 for even finishing earlier.

2 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson.

4 Re-examined by Ms. Richardson:

5 Q. Mr. Stevanovic, counsel just suggested to you that you and Stanisa

6 had gotten together to get your stories, I believe is how he put it,

7 straight or say the same or similar thing. Could you tell us when was the

8 last time you saw Stanisa. Did you see him prior to coming to The Hague?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And you live in Skelani. Is that right?

11 A. Yes, in Skelani.

12 Q. And where does he live?

13 A. In Grabovacka Rijeka.

14 Q. And when was the last time you had seen him prior to coming to

15 The Hague, do you recall?

16 A. I saw him sometime in July because I went to the village.

17 Q. Now, at the time that you saw him, did you have a copy of the ICTY

18 statement with you when you saw him?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Whose statement? His or the other ones?

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Did you have a copy of your ICTY statement that you gave to the

22 investigator in 2001 with you?

23 A. No. I never had that.

24 Q. Okay. Now, when is the first time you saw your ICTY statement?

25 A. When I came here.

Page 1726

1 Q. And you met with me. Is that correct?

2 A. That's right.

3 Q. And you were asked to read the statement and indicate whether it

4 was accurate?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you, in fact, point out to me a number of inaccuracies in

7 the statement?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Without going through all of them, but you did indicate that

10 contrary to the ICTY statement the village guard did have two guns?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you also talked about finding -- excuse me. You also made

13 reference to the body of Stojan Stevanovic and that you indicated that you

14 did not find the body, which is what is stated in your statement, but in

15 fact you came across Stanisa who already had the body. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes, that was it.

17 Q. And in fact, another inaccuracy was the fact that your statement

18 stated that you didn't personally see the whole village burned to the

19 ground, but -- as was indicated in your statement, but this was what was

20 told you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, with respect to information when counsel inquired earlier

23 about what information you had about crimes being committed against

24 Muslims. Do you recall that line of questioning? Well, I'm rephrase the

25 question.

Page 1727

1 In 1992 how did you receive information about what crimes were

2 being committed in your area? And this is with respect to either crimes

3 against Serbs or crimes against Muslims.

4 A. Through the press and Radio Yugoslav. They published that over

5 the radio at the time.

6 Q. And they only published crimes against Serbs, not crimes against

7 Muslims. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you went to Serbia in January of 1993, you indicated that

10 you stayed until Dayton in 1995?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And during the time that you were in Serbia, did the Serb media,

13 either television or newspaper, report crimes committed against Muslims or

14 did they also commit crimes -- I'm sorry. Did they only report crimes

15 against Serbs or did they report crimes committed against Muslims?

16 A. Well, it depends. Sometimes when things happened elsewhere they

17 carried that, too. It depends on what a given TV station could get hold

18 of, what reports. Sometimes they reported on what was going on around

19 Sarajevo, the Krajina, or in the Banja Luka area, that sort of thing. I

20 was not familiar with any of those areas.

21 Q. Okay. And did that newspaper media report any crimes committed

22 against Muslims say, for instance, in Sarajevo?

23 A. It wasn't about crimes; it was about fierce fighting going on.

24 That's what they talked about. But not really about individual crimes, no

25 reports that I came across at least.

Page 1728

1 Q. Did they report crimes against Serbs -- committed against Serbs?

2 A. Well, everything was done the same way. Serbs, Muslims, or what

3 happened and where. That's what the TV reported on. I didn't really

4 watch TV much in those days. It was only what I caught every now and

5 then.

6 Q. And who did you rely on for information other than watching TV

7 every so often? Did you rely on anyone else for information?

8 A. My relatives would sometimes tell me things. Someone would come

9 over and they would tell us about what was happening in a different

10 village. For example, in the Fakovici area I heard that Fakovici had come

11 under attack and had been torched. I didn't exactly see this for myself.

12 This was information that came from people who were refugees from that

13 area, and whoever crossed over into Serbia would tell those stories.

14 Q. As you sit here today, Mr. Stevanovic, have you heard of crimes

15 being committed against Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Whether -- I'm

16 not asking you whether it's true. Have you heard?

17 A. I've heard in the media that people were getting killed and were

18 dying all over the place. Now, I had no information about specific crimes

19 other than people getting killed in fighting perhaps.

20 Q. And with respect to what counsel suggested to you earlier, that

21 the village guard and the Territorial Defence is the same organisation,

22 you have been a member of the village guard in Bradjevina. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you were a member of the Territorial Defence in Skelani. Is

Page 1729

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what is the difference -- and maybe I could lead just a

4 little bit because we are --

5 MS. RICHARDSON: If Your Honour would allow me.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need the explanation. He's already

7 explained it.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: That's fine, Your Honour.

9 Q. My final question to you: Is there a difference without telling

10 us in detail.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: He already said so. If you go back to the

12 transcript he explained what the village guards were and it had absolutely

13 nothing to do with the territorial force or TO as they are known. I don't

14 think we need really any further explanation.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

16 Q. With respect to the mobilisation, and you were shown document --

17 I'm not going to show it to you at the moment, but there was a legal

18 decision that counsel showed you that talked about mobilisation of Serb

19 military men. Did anyone come to your village and give you this decision

20 or told you in June 1992 or prior that you had been mobilised?

21 A. Had there been an actual decision, I would have had to receive

22 this call-up paper. And this would have been somebody's official duty to

23 come and inform me. Nobody informed me and I did not receive any such

24 call-up papers.

25 Q. Did anyone come to your village to arrest you or any other of the

Page 1730

1 men of military age during that period of time for not serving in the

2 military?

3 A. No. No one came.

4 Q. And finally, just with respect to your discussion with the

5 individual in Skelani on the 26th of October, is it correct that this

6 individual confirmed certain information with respect -- certain

7 information about the attack in Bradjevina that you yourself had prior

8 knowledge of.

9 MR. JONES: Your Honour, "confirmed," I don't know where counsel

10 is getting that from. That hasn't been given in evidence. He said in

11 fact in cross-examination that the only information he had was from this

12 individual. So I'm not really sure what the purpose of the question is.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Objection sustained.

14 Rephrase your question, please.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

16 Q. This individual gave you information about the attack in

17 Bradjevina that he had. Is that correct?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we haven't heard your answer.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He personally talked to me in the

20 coffee bar and we sat together and had a drink.


22 Q. And he discussed with you -- he mentioned that he saw the body of

23 Stojan, your cousin. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what he told you about the body, was it similar to your

Page 1731

1 observations of Stojan's body when you saw it in Bradjevina in June of

2 1992?

3 A. I did not see Stojan on the actual spot. I saw him on the

4 outskirts of the village when Stanisa was transporting him in the

5 wheelbarrow. I saw that his throat had been slit. And he told me that he

6 had seen Stojan in the middle of the village with his throat slit.

7 Q. So this information that you received from him was similar to what

8 you yourself observed - that's my question - about Stojan's injuries?

9 Secondly, with respect to --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. With respect to Ljubisa, did the information he gave you about

12 Ljubisa and how he died, is that similar to what you previously knew about

13 Ljubisa and how he died?

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please conclude, Ms. Richardson.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, I will do that. At this time I have no

17 further questions.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

19 Judge Brydensholt from Denmark would like to put some questions to

20 you. Judge Brydensholt.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Yes. This case is about the attack on your

23 village in June 1992. And you explained that there was soldiers, Muslim

24 soldiers, and Muslim civilians who attacked you but that for you it was

25 one in the same thing. Could you describe to me how was what you called

Page 1732

1 the soldiers like? About their uniforms.

2 A. They had camouflage green uniforms, black uniforms, forest keepers

3 uniforms, the clothing that forest keepers used to wear in forests before.

4 There were civilians, wearing civilian clothes. Everyone who carried a

5 weapon and went out there to destroy everything I had is all the same to

6 me. They are all attackers, regardless of whether they were women,

7 regardless of whether they were old men, young men. They were killing

8 people, slaughtering, destroying. What other word can I use for them?

9 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: If you should try to describe to me those who

10 you would call soldiers, were they under order, were they disciplined?

11 Did they just go together with what you call the civilians in one group or

12 various groups but without any distinction?

13 A. On the approaches to the village and during the attack against the

14 village, I noticed more people wearing uniforms. Behind them was the

15 second wave of people wearing uniforms and wearing civilian clothes. So

16 there were two formations.

17 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: And the first formation, was that under order,

18 so to speak? Could you see that they went according to an order in a

19 specific way, or was it just as when the second group came, the second

20 wave as you say?

21 A. They were walking towards my house along the meadows and creeks.

22 They would shoot, they would get closer, they would lie down, they would

23 get up -- get even closer. And that's how they ultimately reached the

24 house and the yard.

25 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Okay. Last question. In January -- early

Page 1733

1 January 1993 when you in Skelani actually became a member of the

2 Territorial Defence and you got a rifle and you got a uniform, what

3 happened to that rifle and uniform later in January when you left Skelani?

4 A. When the Muslims attacked Skelani there was total disarray among

5 the Serbs. Everybody threw away their weapons, whatever, and everybody

6 tried to get out. There was weapons along the road. You could pick up as

7 many as you liked. People would just throw them away. They did not

8 believe that they could defend themselves. And the Muslims did not manage

9 to enter Skelani because of the neighbouring villages. And then the Serbs

10 regrouped and then they relaunched an offensive.

11 At that moment, or rather the next day after the attack -- I can't

12 remember exactly whether it was the second day or whether it was the very

13 next day, then I went over to Bajina Basta. I never went back. I was not

14 pleased with the command or with the people who were in command there. We

15 were all left to our own devices without any command or proper discipline.

16 I left and I never went back.

17 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: Could you remember what happened -- I

18 understand that you threw your rifle away, but what happened to your

19 uniform? Did you keep that?

20 A. No. No one could enter the territory of Yugoslavia wearing a

21 uniform. I had a red sweater on, civilian clothing. My trousers were

22 black, some kind of dark trousers. So I had to wear civilian clothes when

23 going from the territory of Yugoslavia to Republika Srpska and also from

24 Republika Srpska to Yugoslavia.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser from Germany would like to put some

Page 1734

1 questions to you.

2 JUDGE ESER: I have two questions.

3 Mr. Stevanovic, there have been quite a few questions where you

4 answered I do not know, I am not aware. Now, when you have been asked

5 with regard to the ethnic set-up of Fakovici, you would say: There are no

6 Muslims, there have been no Muslims. How could you be so sure that there

7 were no Muslims? How did you know?

8 A. I went to Fakovici. I went there to elementary school for four

9 years. I was at that school for four years, and I know that there is only

10 Serbs in Fakovici. As for Zanjevo, as it's called nowadays, it's used to

11 be called Abdulici before, that's what the map says, that was a

12 neighbouring village to Fakovici. That was a Muslim village.

13 JUDGE ESER: Another question refers to the talk which you had in

14 Skelani just a month ago with regard to the attack. You said you have

15 been told that Akif took over command from Naser, he said, and he was in

16 charge of this particular attack. What does it mean, took over command?

17 Does it mean that Naser was substituted by Akif or that Akif had received

18 a command from Naser? How was it meant or how do you mean it was meant?

19 A. I don't think you understood me fully. Naser issued an order to

20 Akif and Akif led that unit, these Muslims that attacked these Serb

21 villages. It's not that he took over his command. He was loyal to Naser

22 Oric. He carried out his orders.

23 JUDGE ESER: I asked you because the English translation may not

24 have been completely clear. Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And I have a final question. And again it

Page 1735

1 relates to this meeting you had very recently with Nezir, the person who

2 introduced himself to you as Nezir Jakubovic. More or less I would like

3 an explanation from you as to how he could know who was Stojan Stevanovic,

4 who was Slavko Petrovic, and who was Novica Stanojevic. How could he -- I

5 can understand maybe with regard to Stojan Stevanovic, but with regard to

6 the other two? How could you sit down with someone, discuss the events of

7 1992, and literally this man would tell you: Yes, I remember Stojan

8 Stevanovic with his throat slit. I remember Novica. Can you explain to

9 me how the conversation went?

10 A. This conversation, from the very beginning, I put questions to him

11 and then he gave me answers. As for how come they knew people's names and

12 who was who, Mocevici and Bradjevina from the Second World War

13 cooperated -- were engaged in agriculture together, went to work for each

14 other, paid each other per diems. There was a store called Zeljo

15 Hajrudin's store in Mocevici, and that was our favorite store. We Serbs

16 from the neighbouring villages went to that store in Mocevici. So we all

17 know each other. We're neighbours. He also worked at Novica's father's

18 farm. As for Magudovici and Mocevici, also their fields border each

19 other, their pastures, their meadows. There was cooperation. Everybody

20 knew each other.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically, as I understand you, it's not that you

22 have drawn a conclusion to who he was referring to, but that during the

23 discussion that you had with him he specifically mentioned to you the

24 names Stojan Stevanovic or Slavko Petrovic or Novica. He mentioned the

25 names himself, in other words?

Page 1736

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That brings us to the end of your testimony.

3 On behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, on behalf of the Tribunal, and

4 on my own behalf, I should like to thank you for coming over to give

5 testimony in this trial. You will now be escorted by Madam Usher and you

6 will receive all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back

7 home. On behalf of everyone here, we wish you all a safe journey back

8 home. Thank you.

9 That brings us to an end. We will resume on the 22nd. In the

10 meantime, you will all be doing all the homework that we have been

11 discussing about earlier. Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Monday, the 22nd day of

15 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.