Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2368

1 Thursday, 2 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good afternoon. Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and good afternoon.

10 Mr. Oric, good afternoon to you. Can you follow the proceedings

11 in a language you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. Yes,

13 I can follow the proceedings.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. Please be seated.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honours, and good afternoon to

18 my learned friends of the Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead

19 counsel for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel Ms. Patricia Sellers

20 and case manager Donnica Henry-Frijlink, and later on after the break, Ms.

21 Joanne Richardson will take my place. Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good afternoon to you and

23 your team.

24 Appearances for Naser Oric.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. My

Page 2369

1 name is Vasvija Vidovic, and I appear together with Mr. John Jones as

2 Defence counsel for Mr. Naser Oric. With us today are our legal

3 assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to

5 you and your team.

6 We promised you a decision on the oral motion made yesterday by

7 the Prosecution in relation to the recalling of Witness Eric. We have

8 discussed it amongst ourselves and came to the conclusion -- and come to

9 the conclusion that on the basis of the same arguments which were used in

10 our written decision to -- now a decision to grant the recall -- the

11 Defence motion for the recall of the witness, we feel that it is only just

12 -- that the same circumstances apply to the Prosecution, who will be,

13 therefore, authorised to examine in chief also the witness, but solely on

14 matters which arise out of the video and on nothing else. In other words,

15 it doesn't mean that the direct examination is reopened for all intents

16 and purposes. It's being made very clear.

17 We had the choice between just re-examination, but that, in our

18 opinion, wouldn't have been fair, because the rediscovery of this video

19 opens wide some issues which you are both entitled to explore, one on

20 direct, the other one on cross.

21 So that's our decision.

22 Are there any preliminaries before we proceed? Yes, Mr. Jones.

23 MR. JONES: Just one matter, Your Honour, and it concerns the

24 second of today's witnesses. I can mention his name, because he doesn't

25 enjoy protective measures. It's Slavoljub Filipovic. We discussed last

Page 2370

1 Friday non-disclosure issues relating specifically to Mr. Filipovic. Your

2 Honours may recall there was a discussion about a document which was shown

3 to Ms. Trifunovic, and in that regard, I had passed up to Your Honours a

4 chronology and some documents attached thereto, which Your Honours may

5 still have. And among those papers, you saw that there was the name

6 Filipovic and a list of documents which we had requested from the

7 Prosecution but not received. Indeed, there are even three documents

8 relating to Slavoljub Rankic, who is testifying today, which we hadn't

9 received.

10 Yesterday we received a box, and it's here as a visual aid, of

11 material relating to Slavoljub Filipovic, and it was disclosed as

12 potential exhibits to be used by the Prosecution with that witness

13 initially as opposed to meeting our request for those documents which

14 dates back to July of this year. Then subsequently, we were informed that

15 those wouldn't be used as exhibits.

16 The basic point is that we obviously have not had time to review

17 that material in time for today's witness, and so if there is material

18 there which is significant, we're going to be faced with an issue of

19 recall or some other remedy for that extremely belated disclosure.

20 That's one issue. The second issue relates to --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, before you move to the next one. Does

22 the same argument apply also to the next issue, the one that was due on

23 Friday? I'm not going to mention his name, because I don't recall -- it's

24 the one on Friday, anyway. You should have --

25 MR. JONES: Yes. I'm aware of the witness for Friday. I'm just

Page 2371

1 looking at our letter again. Yes, there are indeed documents relating to

2 that witness.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: As well.

4 MR. JONES: As well.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So in other words, we can't switch getting the one

6 on Friday. Yes, but it doesn't work in any case because he probably still

7 needs to be briefed or whatever, I don't know. Yes.

8 MR. JONES: Yes. Our position is we're prepared to go ahead and

9 cross-examine these witnesses, but we do protest at this practice.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You're perfectly right to.

11 MR. JONES: Also, as regards proofing notes, we were told that we

12 wouldn't receive proofing notes for Mr. Filipovic, but then one hour

13 before today's hearing, we were told that there were proofing notes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That happens. And that's not going to cause

15 an earthquake. That happens in the case of many, or most witnesses, I

16 would say.

17 MR. JONES: It's really a question of when dramatically new

18 information is revealed by those notes which we then have to pursue in the

19 field. So I raise those two points, Your Honour, as a preliminary.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: As I see it, I honestly don't think we are going to

21 finish with the next witness, with Filipovic, today. I find it very

22 difficult to anticipate that we would finish with that witness today,

23 which would bring us to tomorrow. And by tomorrow, maybe you would have

24 solved the problem. So what I suggest is that you start today, then you

25 have the rest of the evening, or what will be left of it, and tomorrow

Page 2372

1 morning to go through that mass of documents, if you can, but I suppose it

2 shouldn't be difficult for you to sift the chaff from the wheat.

3 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour. That's the course we intended to

4 pursue. It seemed appropriate to raise it with Your Honours.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But I appreciate very much the fact that you

6 have raised it, in fact, and I am going to call on the Prosecution for an

7 explanation of this. Because this has happened in the past, obviously,

8 but -- and it will continue happening. But the unfortunate thing is when

9 it happens, the day, the same day the witness is going to give evidence or

10 the day before the witness is going to give evidence, because it becomes

11 impossible.

12 MR. JONES: Indeed, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Who is going to address this issue?

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, Your Honour. Let me first state that I would be

15 pleased, out of courtesy, if I receive a call from Defence in advance or

16 just before the trial, so I can prepare and not check that while you are

17 -- or Your Honours or Defence counsel is pleading it. It's so easy to

18 update me.

19 In the meanwhile, we did some checks, and we are happy to inform

20 you later on when we in fact disclosed the material in an earlier stage.

21 It's sometimes, Your Honour, that we receive a bundle of documents with a

22 content of, let's say, 10 or 12 statements by a court, a municipal court

23 in Bosnia, let's say, and that we translate these documents and that we

24 disclose these documents as indeed a bundle, a compilation of it. And

25 then later on, as a courtesy, as a confirmation, we do specific during

Page 2373

1 certain stage of trial when we come to it again the disclosure, but then

2 the particular statement itself. So there's a double disclosure.

3 I cannot tell you now off the top of my head if we disclosed all

4 of these statements, but at least a chunk of it, or even most of it, have

5 already been disclosed through the rules of the road file on October --

6 from October the 3rd, and these were indeed disclosed under these rules of

7 the road, where we trace those bundle of statements.

8 So we will check further out, and we would like to inform you

9 further on. And again, I offer, when -- out of a courtesy call, this can

10 do, before the trial start on the particular day, or just to give me a

11 call in that respect, I can more easily reflect in a quick manner.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What surprises me is what I consider an act of

13 discourtesy on the part of the Prosecution in providing a box full of

14 documents the day before the witness is supposed to come here and give

15 evidence, as being documents that maybe - maybe - you know, you never

16 know, maybe the Prosecution could use in the course of the

17 examination-in-chief. All of a sudden it's inverted and you are expecting

18 courtesy from the other side.

19 MR. WUBBEN: No. It is not for me that the Prosecution claims

20 that they're acting in --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you, Mr. Wubben, I'm going to interrupt

22 you. If I had been Mr. Jones today, instead of being polite and moderate,

23 I would have insisted in not having Mr. Filipovic start giving evidence.

24 I would have insisted. And I would have said, When I have finished

25 reading those documents, then we can start hearing Mr. Filipovic's

Page 2374

1 evidence. And I will suspend the sitting later on, after this first

2 witness comes over, and we will decide what measure to adopt. Because

3 this is -- I cannot accept this. You cannot expect to come here and

4 present us with a situation whereby Defence counsel, who have already a

5 hard case to deal with, all of a sudden have to go through a bundle of

6 documents, not knowing whether they are going to be used or not, when the

7 practice has always been that you inform the Defence well beforehand what

8 documents you are going to use, documents which would have already been

9 disclosed a long time ago, with which, supposedly, they are already

10 familiar. I mean, I can't accept a situation like this. You would have

11 found me much more difficult than Mr. Jones, I can assure you. And I

12 appreciate Mr. Jones being moderate in his claims and not radical.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Well, Your Honour, again, with all respect to the

14 argumentation of the Defence, I'm reacting upon the fact that

15 argumentation is that it had not been disclosed prior, and my response to

16 it, that this material has been disclosed. And when it comes to an

17 exhibit list, we try to update the Defence counsel as soon as possible of

18 the exhibits we would like -- prefer to use, and according to the court

19 guideline, that's a day in advance.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You should have brought another witness, or other

21 witnesses instead, this one and the one we have tomorrow. But you can't

22 expect to draw blood from the Defence. I mean, I won't allow it. We will

23 end up with having the witness of Mr. Filipovic and having the testimony

24 of the next one. They can sit pretty and say: We haven't had time to go

25 through these documents. You start making use of some of those documents,

Page 2375

1 maybe yes, maybe not. They will reserve their position. Both Mr.

2 Filipovic and the other one will go back to where they have come from, and

3 then within a month or so, we will have another motion asking for their

4 recall. In the meantime, you would have fresh documents, and so on and so

5 forth. This is not how cases are conducted.

6 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, with all respect, my first reply was

7 referring to the disclosure, and the disclosure, I clarified the position

8 to that extent, that we've already disclosed material from the 3rd of

9 October. Now the exhibit list, those documents, that's another issue.

10 And if you want to clarify that, I can give the floor to Ms. Sellers, who

11 --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course.

13 MR. JONES: May I first, Your Honour, just note two things.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: Firstly, the chronology which we prepared in relation

16 to the Ms. Trifunovic document is informative in this regard: in that it

17 indicates when we received materials to inspect and when they were

18 disclosed. Mr. Wubben is referring to a date in October 2004 and he's

19 referring to disclosure of rules of the road files, which, as you know,

20 start with RR. I just look at the first few documents here. None of them

21 are RR there. They're simply not rules of the road documents. So to

22 claim that these have all been disclosed as rules of the road documents, I

23 think Mr. Wubben and his team, first of all, before simply wildly

24 asserting that this has all been disclosed, to check ERN number by ERN

25 number, receipt by receipt, and check whether --

Page 2376

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones, if this goes on I will suspend the case

2 until the house is in order.

3 MR. JONES: Yes. Your Honour, it's simply to say this: that it's

4 not helpful for the Prosecution simply to assert that it's all been

5 disclosed to us. Let them check first and then they'll see what the real

6 position is. Otherwise it's simply not helpful to have the discussion

7 we're having today.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an unnecessary, unnecessary incident, and

9 unnecessary concerns for the Trial Chamber, for the Defence. It's simply

10 -- yes, Ms. Sellers. I thought Mr. Wubben was passing on --

11 MR. WUBBEN: Let me first --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, of course.

13 MR. WUBBEN: Let me first react. I did not simply state that it

14 has all been disclosed. What I stated is that I regret that I'm not able

15 to check it to the full extent, but at least I've now been informed that a

16 chunk, or most of it, has been disclosed from the 3rd of October. And

17 then again I offered additional information regarding the exhibits from

18 Ms. Patricia Sellers.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I agree in terms of the confusion. My

21 information from the case manager, it all has been disclosed on October

22 3rd under rules of the road. The reason there are no RRs on those is that

23 they were included with -- in some of the materials that rules of the road

24 have that don't have RR. I think this is slightly beside the issue that

25 Defence counsel has brought up and one that we want to address.

Page 2377

1 If the issue are documents that might be used within the

2 Prosecution's leading of the next witness, that could be possibly

3 exhibits, well, my understanding is they have received our exhibit list

4 that we will use with the next witness. You have received the specific

5 exhibits that are used. So that's a slightly different issue, and my only

6 point was not to conflate those two things, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but if they are not the same thing, they are

8 not the same documents that are to be used, that's going beyond the

9 exhibit list that you have tendered. In other words, if -- are these

10 documents, according to you or according to your case manager, included in

11 the list of exhibits that you have handed over, provided the Defence with,

12 or you don't know?

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, the exhibits that are on the exhibit

14 list, the Defence has been provided with the ERN numbers. If any of those

15 ERN numbers are contained in that bundle of documents, it would mean that

16 the Defence has had those documents since October 30th. Those are two

17 different things. If you mean whether we have provided them with the

18 exact documents that will be used as exhibits, I believe the court

19 practice is they are handed those documents in the Trial Chamber, but

20 we've notified them as they notify us with the exhibit lists that they

21 will use for cross-examination.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But basically, what we are faced with, Ms. Sellers,

23 is -- let's come to the basic language here. Basically, it means, and I

24 have been a Defence lawyer and I know exactly what this involves,

25 basically it means that they have got to go through all those documents

Page 2378

1 one by one, check whether they tally with the exhibit list that you have,

2 check whether they have them in their records. If they are new documents,

3 they have to read them or at least know what the substance of the contents

4 is in case they are made use of in the course of -- and all this is

5 happening in less than 24 hours before this witness is supposed to come

6 and give evidence. Even the idea of giving the Defence that box full of

7 papers, with the task of going through them, and then checking whether

8 they are included or excluded from the list of exhibits that you have

9 provided the Defence with, whether they are extra documents, not included,

10 and there is, it's laborious.

11 How can you expect them to come here a few hours after they have

12 been provided with the box full of documents and pretend to remain silent

13 and say, Okay, we will go ahead, as if nothing has happened, and we will

14 not reserve our position. Of course they will reserve their position.

15 What irks me is that if, later on, going through these documents,

16 they feel the need to recall Mr. Filipovic or Mr. X tomorrow, and these

17 two persons would have in the meantime gone back to where they came --

18 would have come from, it's an inconvenience for them to come over again.

19 It's an inconvenience for all of us, because it's going to take another

20 one or two days from our schedule, it's extra expense for the Tribunal,

21 and it's no extra pay for the Defence.

22 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, I take your points.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's why I'm telling you, thank God Mr. Jones

24 hasn't got a Mediterranean temper. Thank you.

25 Are you ready with the next witness? Yes, Mr. Jones.

Page 2379

1 MR. JONES: Yes. If there's nothing further on this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't -- I think I would close the chapter here.

3 And of course, I don't even think I need to discuss. We will reserve your

4 position. We will discuss later on amongst ourselves. And if there is

5 any further step that needs to be taken, obviously it will need to be

6 taken. But we need to discuss amongst ourselves a little bit on this.

7 MR. JONES: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope this will not be repeated.

9 MR. JONES: If it's any assistance at some stage, we have the

10 cover letter which went with that box. That's the only other additional

11 information. But I'm certainly ready for the next witness.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Not the next witness. It's the witness we had

13 yesterday. So we don't need to go into private session while he walks in;

14 no?

15 Okay. So could you please bring the witness in. Thank you.

16 Please don't be aggressive with him, Mr. Jones.

17 MR. JONES: It's certainly not my intention, Your Honour.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: May I remind the technicians that we have facial

20 distortion. Okay. Thank you.

21 Good afternoon to you, Mr. Rankic.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back to this Tribunal.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: We will be proceeding with your testimony. I hope

Page 2380

1 you have had time to rest and that you are ready. We have got about

2 another hour to go and then you can go back home.

3 May I remind you that you are testifying on the basis, or pursuant

4 to the same oath or solemn declaration that you entered yesterday, to

5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Mr. Jones

6 will be proceeding with his cross-examination.


8 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones: [Continued]

9 Q. Mr. Rankic, in order to make progress today and to conclude your

10 testimony as quickly as possible, I'd be grateful if, wherever possible,

11 you would reply simply "yes," "no," or "I don't know," to my questions.

12 A. Fair enough.

13 Q. And if there's a pause at some stage, it may be because we're

14 waiting for interpretation, so don't feel the need to add anything simply

15 because we're waiting. It's simply a question of waiting for the

16 interpretation.

17 Now, I have a couple of preliminary questions before moving on to

18 some other areas from yesterday's testimony. The first is: To your

19 knowledge, do you have any Muslim enemies from your area?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So as far as you know, none of them would have a motive to falsely

22 accuse you of being involved in ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Voljevica

23 and Zaluzje in May 1992?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Rankic, in answer to my very first question about

Page 2381

1 Bjelovac yesterday, you responded, and I'm quoting:

2 "Bjelovac only had a handful of families, the ones that I

3 mentioned. I think you're confusing this with Zaluzje, which is adjacent

4 to Bjelovac. That seems to have been an error all long."

5 A. That's possible.

6 Q. My question to you today is: Have you been discussing this case

7 with other people who have testified before this Tribunal? In particular,

8 have you discussed this case with Slavka Matic, from your village?

9 A. No. No. No.

10 Q. Perhaps you can answer this: How can you refer to something being

11 an error all along when it was the very first question that I put to you?

12 A. I think the 10 per cent you asked me about. My calculation was 10

13 per cent. I was actually trying to count the families. That's what I had

14 in mind. I'm not sure if we understood each other properly.

15 Q. You spoke to Slavka Matic, did you not, and she told you that

16 there was a question of how many Muslims lived in Bjelovac, and that's why

17 you were referring to something being an error all along, referring to her

18 testimony as well as yours.

19 A. I don't think I understand this.

20 Q. Never mind. I'll move on.

21 Yesterday you told us that the Territorial Defence was so

22 disorganised in 1992 that people could just desert if they wanted to,

23 whereas that changed in 1993.

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 MR. JONES: If the usher could please show the witness Defence

Page 2382

1 Exhibit D92 again.

2 Q. I'll direct your attention to the fourth page in the original,

3 also page 4 in the English. The ERN is 0132-0786. And we see at 135

4 Bibic, Miloje deserted in January.

5 Now, my question is: Doesn't this show that the Serb military

6 authorities took great care to keep track of persons who did desert, even

7 in 1992?

8 A. Well, it did happen also in 1992, but in 1993, you would have been

9 taken to account. You could have been gaoled or something. Back in 1992,

10 from May onwards, you could have just gone away without anyone touching

11 you and coming back whenever you liked. So that was the reason I said

12 that.

13 Q. While we're with this document, I'd refer you to page 0132-0790.

14 You need to turn four pages. We have the fourth ceta, and again your name

15 at the top, Slavoljub Nedja Rankic, as commander. And then in the third

16 vod, number 271, we see Zoran Rajic. Now, do you know Zoran Rajic?

17 A. The last name doesn't ring a bell. Zoran certainly does, but not

18 the last name. Rajic? No.

19 Q. It says Dobrovoljac. So he was a volunteer from Serbia, wasn't

20 he?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So he certainly wasn't guarding his village, was he? Because his

23 village was in another country, in Serbia.

24 A. He came to us as a refugee. He was staying with some relatives,

25 and then that village fell, and he came over. Or at least, that's the

Page 2383

1 story he gave us.

2 Q. A refugee from Serbia?

3 A. Yes. He had been staying with relatives in Bosnia and then the

4 war started, and he then got involved with the Serbs.

5 Q. So this is -- you know Zoran, then? He's the volunteer on that

6 document?

7 A. Yes. Yes. I know Zoran, but I can't remember his last name. It

8 was, after all, a long time ago, wasn't it?

9 Q. All right. Thank you. You can leave that document to one side.

10 Now, you told us yesterday --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Jones. Yes, Judge Eser.

12 JUDGE ESER: I just would have a question. Can you identify the

13 date of this document? It's difficult.

14 MR. JONES: It's December 1992, Your Honour. It appears on the

15 first page of the English version and the original.

16 JUDGE ESER: Since this document refers to the 22nd of December,

17 1992, it appears as if this document has been established later, at least

18 not during December, perhaps at the end of December, or could --

19 MR. JONES: It could certainly be the end of December.

20 JUDGE ESER: Or even in January?

21 MR. JONES: I don't believe so, Your Honour. I believe any

22 reference to January is January 1992.

23 [Defence counsel confer]

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies. May I

25 provide an explanation for this? There is a lot of information on these

Page 2384

1 documents. Back in our country, the usual thing to do is for salaries to

2 be paid retroactively. Salaries are paid in January for December, at the

3 beginning of January, the salaries for December. If that's any help.

4 Therefore, this document was probably produced in late December, must have

5 been produced in late December.

6 MR. JONES: Thank you.

7 Q. Now, Mr. Rankic, you told us yesterday that the road between

8 Bjelovac and Bratunac in December 1992 was in Muslim hands. You said of

9 that road, and I'll quote: "In May it was safe. No provocations. You

10 could go from Bjelovac to Bratunac and back. But in June, the

11 provocations started, ambushes and so on, so it was no longer safe."

12 Now, my question for you is this: People who control a road don't

13 have to ambush it, do they? They can set up roadblocks. Isn't it true

14 that the Serbs held the road, but that it was occasionally ambushed by

15 Muslim forces?

16 A. We used that road, the Bjelovac-Bratunac road. We were free to

17 move about for a while. And then later on, at some point in June, one of

18 our vehicles took the men and women over to Bratunac to buy some goods,

19 and there at the so-called Zaluzje, an ambush took place, and the citizens

20 who were inside that vehicle were killed.

21 Q. My point is this: The Muslims weren't passing freely back and

22 forth between Bjelovac and Bratunac, were they? At the most, they were

23 ambushing the road. They certainly didn't control the road, did they?

24 A. I don't know that. No one was allowed to go, but I have no idea

25 who was in control. It wouldn't have been safe for anyone.

Page 2385

1 Q. Thank you. Now, you referred to the school in Bjelovac yesterday,

2 which you said was used to feed refugees from Loznica and Sikiric. Now,

3 firstly, as you accepted yesterday, and I refer to page 80, lines 14 to

4 16, for Ms. Sellers's benefit, where I asked: "Sikiric, the Muslims were

5 expelled from Sikiric in May 1992, were they not?" And you answered yes.

6 It was Muslims who were expelled from Sikiric, not Serbs, wasn't it?

7 A. The Muslims at the Bjelovac school, no. I don't understand.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... expelled from Sikiric, not

9 Serbs; correct?

10 A. From Donji Sikiric, yes, but not from Gornji Sikiric.

11 Q. There's no such thing as Donji Sikiric and Gornji Sikiric, is

12 there?

13 A. Donji Sikiric is on the road, on the main road, and Gornji is up

14 above the road. That is usually referred to as Gornji Sikiric, or at

15 least that's the term that we use.

16 Q. So you've said that the school was used just as a soup kitchen,

17 essentially, for refugees, the school in Bjelovac.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So if a cook working in the school at the time were never to

20 mention refugees but were to say that she prepared meals for paramilitary

21 units in the school, would that be untrue?

22 A. That wouldn't be bad.

23 Q. Would you repeat your answer, please. I'm not sure if the

24 interpretation was correct.

25 A. People were staying there, refugees from Sikiric and Loznica.

Page 2386

1 They were staying there and eating there.

2 Q. Were paramilitary units also staying there, and soldiers, and

3 being fed there?

4 A. Those who came from Bratunac, yes, from time to time. Not all the

5 time; from time to time. They spent a couple of days there and then leave

6 again.

7 Q. So yesterday, when you were speaking of the school and you said it

8 was for refugees, you were telling at most a partial truth, weren't you?

9 You weren't telling us the whole truth about what that school was used

10 for?

11 A. Well, I did say that. Maybe you got me confused at the time.

12 Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough.

13 Q. I'll just remind you that you're here to tell the whole truth, not

14 just the bit that suits you. So if you'll please answer the whole truth

15 when you answer questions.

16 It's right, isn't it, in fact, in December 1992 and before, the

17 school was the command centre for the military units in Bjelovac? And

18 again you can answer yes, or no, or you don't know.

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. I put it to you, and you can again simply reply yes or no, or you

21 don't know, is that in December 1992, you on the Serb side in Bjelovac had

22 a depot or depots of weapons and ammunition.

23 A. Yes. Ammunition, a depot.

24 Q. You had two battalions of soldiers, a 2nd and a 4th Battalion --

25 Battalions?

Page 2387

1 A. I don't understand what you're saying about these battalions. We

2 only had a company, and it was called Independent Company. But there was

3 no sort of battalion there.

4 Q. Company. So what, about approximately 160 soldiers or more?

5 A. Well, yes, thereabouts, ranging from 100 to 140 soldiers.

6 Soldiers, fighters. Fighters is what we call them.

7 Q. And also on the road which your unit secured, there were APCs,

8 tanks, and transporters passing between -- well, let me rephrase that.

9 That there were -- there was a presence of APCs, tanks, and transporters

10 in the Bjelovac area.

11 A. The APCs were there to protect the convoy en route to Bratunac,

12 transporting food to Bratunac and back. That's what the APCs were there

13 for, to provide security along the Bratunac-Bjelovac road.

14 Q. What about tanks?

15 A. One tank and two APCs.

16 Q. And there was also heavy artillery in Sikiric, among other places,

17 which was firing on Muslims.

18 A. I don't know about that.

19 Q. I want to ask you now about the water treatment plant in Kunjerac.

20 In your statement to the Prosecutor, to the investigators in 2000, you

21 said:

22 "There was no special protection for the water treatment plant."

23 Now, I'm going to ask you a question about that in a moment. If

24 we could first just see where Kunjerac is. We can use the map we used

25 yesterday, with the usher's assistance.

Page 2388

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, the map.

2 Mr. Jones, could you indicate to the usher where it is yourself so

3 that he will focus the overhead projector.

4 MR. JONES: Yes.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The water treatment plant was near

6 the school, and there was a pool at Kunarac, if that's what you're asking

7 about.


9 Q. I'm asking about Kunjerac. Could you point to Kunjerac on the

10 map, please, with a pointer, on the electronic monitor. Do you see

11 Biljaca? Do you see Bjelovac? Yes, there we go.

12 A. Hereabouts.

13 Q. So it's very near Bjelovac.

14 A. It's on the hill, just above Bjelovac. Just there.

15 Q. Just a few hundred metres from Bjelovac.

16 A. Yes, thereabouts.

17 Q. It's right, isn't it, that Kunjerac was in fact a stronghold, and

18 that there was an anti-aircraft top, i.e., heavy artillery, on Kunjerac,

19 on the hill?

20 A. I'm not aware of that. There were a couple of those, whatever we

21 call them, trenches, that we used as protection for Kunjerac to keep

22 people from coming there. Even after the pipe had burst, the trench

23 remained to protect the pool or reservoir.

24 Q. Wasn't there a unit of Red Berets, an elite unit from Serbia,

25 based in Kunjerac at this time?

Page 2389

1 A. No.

2 MR. JONES: I'd be grateful if the usher would assist by showing

3 the witness Exhibit D86. This is the document which we saw with another

4 witness. The ERN, for the record, is 0132-0961. It dates from November

5 1992. And in the middle, one sees the words in the original "Prva ceta

6 crvene beretke Kunjerac," in English, "Kunjarac Red Berets, 1st Company."

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that it was there the Red

8 Berets, the intervention unit from Bratunac, they would come to our area

9 every now and then. I don't know about any other such unit.


11 Q. But weren't they in fact fighting --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Who were the Red Berets? Were they locals from

13 Bratunac or not, the Red Berets?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were people from Bratunac.

15 They were some sort of a reconnaissance platoon that was used to carry out

16 reconnaissance and for assistance. We call them the Red Berets.

17 MR. JONES: Perhaps I'll be able to throw some light on that with

18 the next exhibit.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones. Sorry for having interrupted.

20 MR. JONES: Not at all, Your Honour.

21 The next exhibit, the ERN is 0132-1081. In fact, we're going to

22 combine two exhibits in one. The other one has the ERN 0132-1103. If

23 those could be shown to the witness.

24 If the witness would look at, when he has it, the document, one

25 sees the name Miodrag Cvijic, born in 1972, from Novi Sad or Zablje, from

Page 2390

1 Serbia, in any event, died 14 December 1992 in Voljevica, in combat. Red

2 Beret. And then at the bottom it says that he died during enemy attack

3 while performing a combat assignment.

4 Q. Before I ask you a question about that, I'll also pass on to the

5 next exhibit. Radoslav Djukic, from Pakrac, which you might be able to

6 help us with that, Mr. Rankic, but I believe it's in the Krajina,

7 seriously wounded and later died in a counter-attack in Voljevica on 14

8 December 1992, and he's a Red Beret as well.

9 Now, seeing those documents and those dates, does that help you

10 with the question of whether they were fighting in the Bjelovac area on

11 the 14th [Realtime transcript read in error"4th"] of December, 1992?

12 Perhaps you know these individuals even.

13 A. I don't know these persons, nor do I know anything at all about

14 them.

15 MR. JONES: Could this document be given an exhibit number,

16 please.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Two separate numbers, Mr. Jones, or one?

18 MR. JONES: I think they -- yes, two separate exhibit numbers.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the first one will be the one which was

20 tendered first, and that is the document relating to Miodrag Cvijic. This

21 document is being tendered and admitted and marked as Defence Exhibit D94.

22 MR. JONES: Just one correction for the record. I believed I said

23 14th of December --


25 MR. JONES: -- earlier. That's perhaps how it should read.

Page 2391

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you said --

2 MR. JONES: Not the 4th of December

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The 14th, I heard you say 14th of December.

4 The second document being tendered, admitted and marked as Defence

5 Exhibit D95 is the document which relates to the record sheet of Radoslav

6 Djukic, who died on the 14th of December, 1992. Yes.

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, we're now going to show the first of two

8 video segments, and by way of explanation, the video is from the Bratunac

9 Brigade collection.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which church provided you with these?

11 MR. JONES: Probably the Orthodox church, Your Honour, although I

12 can't confirm. It's from the Bratunac Brigade collection. And the number

13 is V000-3937, which the Prosecution has. And it's clear from the original

14 that it concerns the action in Bjelovac on 14 December 1992.

15 I'll just say, for the benefit of the Prosecution and for the

16 record, on the original, at 01:25:18, there's a white board which says

17 "Bratunac 14 December 1992." I'm going slowly for the interpreters. At

18 1:26:40 of the video, a journalist is reporting on the action in Bjelovac

19 on the 14th of December, 1992, and he's in Bratunac as bodies are arriving

20 there. And we haven't edited the video. We're showing segments, but it

21 hasn't been edited by us.

22 So if we could play the first segment. Yes, and if the technical

23 booth could switch over to Defence mode. Yes, we can go ahead on

24 "Computer Evidence."

25 [Videotape played]

Page 2392

1 MR. JONES: Okay. We can stop there with that segment.

2 Q. We heard from that clip that Slobodan Despotovic had died there.

3 Do you know that a Slobodan Despotovic was killed in the Serb

4 counter-attack in Voljevica on the 14th of December, 1992?

5 A. No. I'm not familiar with the name or with what happened. I only

6 know about Bjelovac. I didn't leave Bjelovac at the time.

7 MR. JONES: With the usher's assistance, if we could look at

8 Exhibit D87, in order just to fix the time. We see three names down --

9 ERN 0066-1863, Slobodan Despotovic, CV, died in Voljevica on the 14th of

10 December, 1992, "labodbi kontranapad," which is in combat, counter-attack.

11 And then we also see Zlatan Bogicevic, also died on the 14th of

12 December, 1992, in Voljevica, in the counter-attack. And then further

13 down, Milorad Tosic, dying in Bjelovac on the 14th of December, 1992. It

14 says "u borbi odbrana," so defence in Bjelovac.

15 Q. Now, my question is: Are you aware that Red Berets were fighting

16 in Bjelovac on the 14th of December, 1992?

17 A. They weren't there on that day. Had they been there, everything

18 would have turned out differently, because they were capable.

19 MR. JONES: And just for the record, I also direct Your Honours'

20 attention to D45, line 102, which confirms the death of Slobodan

21 Despotovic in Voljevica. There's no need to look at it now.

22 Q. Now, isn't it right, Mr. Rankic, that on the 14th of December,

23 1992, that there was a fierce counter-attack by Serb forces, including Red

24 Berets, counter-attacking from Voljevica towards Bjelovac?

25 A. I didn't know about that day. I only knew about Bjelovac, because

Page 2393

1 that's where I was. I have no idea what was happening in Voljevica at

2 that time.

3 Q. That's fine. Sorry. Let's turn to the action of the 14th of

4 December, 1992. You told us yesterday that you were expecting an attack

5 by Muslim forces. You just didn't expect them to attack from this side of

6 the Drina. So my question is: They took you by surprise, didn't they?

7 Otherwise you would have put up a better fight.

8 A. That's perfectly clear. I have nothing to add. Of course, we

9 didn't know there would be an attack.

10 Q. Now, the first thing that happened on the 14th of December, 1992,

11 as far as you're concerned, was that you heard shots. So you don't

12 actually know how the action started, do you?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. And in your statement in the year 2000 to the Tribunal

15 investigators - I'm looking at page 2, ERN 00939359, four to five lines

16 from the bottom - you said: "The shooting was so intense that I could not

17 tell if any of the villagers were returning fire." So you don't know, do

18 you, whether there was actually a fierce, two-way fight?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 Q. To your knowledge, you don't know --

21 A. All I can do is to confirm that there was heavy shooting, but I

22 couldn't see everything from my house.

23 Q. Now, you also mentioned yesterday that you saw a group of ten or

24 so people in uniform outside Nikola Petrovic's house.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2394

1 Q. Now, first of all, you have no idea who those people are or were,

2 do you? You weren't able to identify any attackers? Again, a yes or no.

3 A. I assume they were Muslims. There was nothing else that I could

4 assume. I never saw anybody personally, nor did I know anybody

5 personally, and I said that yesterday.

6 Q. Yes. Thank you. And when you saw these people, Nikola Petrovic's

7 house was already on fire and these people were outside the house, weren't

8 they?

9 A. I said yesterday, and it's the truth, that I saw it from the yard.

10 When I saw the smoke coming from the yard, in the direction of Nikola's

11 house, I went up to the upper storey to see where the smoke was coming

12 from, and I saw Nikola's house, and I saw that it was certainly 100 per

13 cent Nikola's house. So that's what I said.

14 Q. My point is this: You didn't see anyone set fire to that house,

15 did you?

16 A. No, no. I didn't. I couldn't.

17 Q. For all you know, the fire could have started from a grenade or

18 mortar fire or some other non-human cause, for all you know.

19 A. Well, I didn't check it out. I just noticed the people I saw what

20 I saw. I didn't say that they had set fire to it. I just assumed they

21 did. Who else could it have been? They were the people there. Now, who

22 these people were, well...

23 Q. Exactly. I'm simply trying to establish where you made

24 assumptions and what you actually know. Now, going back to those people

25 outside Petrovic's house, whom you described yesterday as capering and

Page 2395

1 pulling faces, you didn't see them communicating with other groups of

2 soldiers, did you? And again, a yes or no answer is sufficient, or I

3 don't know. Did you see that group of people communicating with other

4 groups?

5 A. I saw other people -- actually, I just saw the people I saw. I

6 didn't see any other people.

7 Q. Right. So you didn't see them communicating with others,

8 coordinating their actions with others, or anything of that nature, did

9 you? You saw them capering outside someone's house.

10 A. I just heard some voices. I did hear that. And I couldn't make

11 out what they were saying. I heard some names, too. But voices, saying

12 something. But I didn't dare stand around watching too much, because I

13 was afraid for my own safety. That's why I was a bit wary.

14 Q. When it was suggested yesterday to you by His Honour that you saw

15 a coordinated attack of soldiers coordinating their actions, that's not

16 something you saw at all, is it?

17 A. I don't understand this in legal terms. I'm an ordinary citizen,

18 an ordinary person, and I can't enter into this discussion with you. I

19 just told you in my own words. I can't tell otherwise than using my own

20 words. I can't explain it to you.

21 Q. Now, on that day, the Serbs gathered in the centre of Bjelovac,

22 you told us, and that's because the people who attacked Bjelovac were not

23 able to reach the centre on that day, were they? The attackers didn't

24 reach the centre of Bjelovac on the 14th of December, 1992?

25 A. The attackers? You mean -- I can't understand this. I'm not

Page 2396

1 following you.

2 Q. I'll rephrase the question. The attackers did not reach the

3 centre of Bjelovac, where you gathered that evening?

4 A. That evening, you mean? They went -- the house we had gathered at

5 was up by the road, and they held the communication, the road towards the

6 Drina. So they went down by the Drina and round that way, except for

7 Nikola's house.

8 Q. They had to withdraw from Bjelovac, didn't they, on the 14th of

9 December, because of a fierce counter-attack by Serb forces?

10 A. There was -- there were no further attacks. At around 1800 hours,

11 everything stopped. You couldn't hear anything anywhere. It was quiet.

12 So I assume that those attackers had withdrawn.

13 Q. We have little time. So we'll play the next segment of a video,

14 the same video. It's a continuation of what we just saw. And it's a

15 couple of minutes long, two or three minutes. If you could watch the

16 video, please, Mr. Rankic.

17 MS. SELLERS: Could counsel just clarify as to whether the wording

18 or the transcription of the video, if he intends that to be part of what's

19 offered into evidence or are we merely asking him to look at the visuals?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, a very pertinent question, Mr. Jones.

21 MR. JONES: I'm not sure if I've understood it entirely. We would

22 be tendering these clips, which have subtitles. I was going to read the

23 subtitles into evidence. Will you give me one moment, please.

24 [Defence counsel confer]

25 MR. JONES: Yes. The answer is yes, we will.

Page 2397

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So I take it that this will receive an exhibit

3 number, a Defence exhibit number.

4 MR. JONES: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

6 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just like to raise a Defence

7 objection as to the substance. I can understand the translation, the

8 wording, but as to the truth of to what that wording is, there certainly

9 hasn't been any evidence of that. And then just the last issue I'd like

10 to raise, a bit more in general. I think it was counsel who testified as

11 to the location of the tapes and of the scenes that we're seeing. I don't

12 see where the witness has recognised a place that these scenes are taking

13 place.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if he recognised this road, believe me, I

15 wouldn't believe him, because you can barely see anything. I mean, it

16 could be a naive painting, as it shows on the screen here.

17 MR. JONES: It will emerge from what follows where the film is

18 shot. And in the last sequence we had the -- where someone died and that

19 was placed as being in Voljevica. So we have clues.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a town, I mean, or a village.

21 MR. JONES: I certainly don't wish to give evidence, it was simply

22 to try and assist where the clips came from.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll deal with these at the end. Let's proceed

24 first and then we'll see.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 2398

1 MR. JONES: We're going to pause at certain places.

2 Pause there.

3 Q. I asked you yesterday, Mr. Rankic, about Svetozar Andric, who was

4 commander of the Bircanska Brigade and at the time of the commanded a

5 special assault unit. Do you recognise that man to be Svetozar Andric on

6 the screen?

7 A. I don't know this man at all.

8 Q. We see some of the soldiers wearing the kokarda in the picture.

9 A. Well, you can see it, yes.

10 Q. These are Serb soldiers?

11 A. Well, if you say so. I can't check it out. How do you want me to

12 do that? Perhaps they are; perhaps they're not. What can I say? I don't

13 know.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which other ethnic group wore kokarde? Which other

15 ethnic group, soldiers, wore kokarde, apart from the Serbian? Did the

16 Muslims wear a kokarde?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just Serbs.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: The Croats? Did the Croats wear a Kokarda?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But the Serbs did wear a Kokarda, or some units of

21 the Serbian armed forces wore a Kokarda?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's right. Certainly.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So we see soldiers wearing a Kokarda in this clip,

24 you would suppose that they are Serbian soldiers and not soldiers

25 belonging to other ethnic groups; would you agree with me?

Page 2399

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say that the soldiers of the

2 paramilitary formations were wearing that, not any regular soldiers, as

3 far as I can remember, of course.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Serbian paramilitary?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Serbs.

6 MR. JONES: We'll continue with the clip.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. JONES: Yes, stop there.

9 For the record, I'd like to just read the subtitles into the

10 record. Of course, excepting what the Prosecution is saying, that it

11 doesn't constitute evidence and the truth of what's being said. We have:

12 "Gunner, can you hear me? Do not take your head out and listen to me.

13 Where this house is burning and from that house go 50 metres forward and

14 watch out. You know those houses you were blowing out yesterday? Do not

15 take your head out and listen to me. Where this house is burning, and

16 from that house, go 50 metres forward and watch out. You know those

17 houses you were blowing out yesterday. So you go 50 metres more. Means

18 until this pole here. And up there from the right, straight away, in the

19 houses." I think in fact that should read "straight towards the houses,"

20 but we can check that. "Do not target down. Do not shoot yet. You

21 target houses up there. If you throw over, you will hit Bjelovac, and

22 especially up there, these houses to the right, below this peak we were

23 shooting at yesterday. Do you remember? And tell the driver to go

24 another 50 metres forward. Gunner, tell me if you can see it now. Not

25 this house. There is a sniper man from the right. Do you know where he

Page 2400

1 was yesterday?"

2 Q. Now, my question is, Mr. Rankic, first of all, do you recognise

3 this area as being in the Bjelovac area, from what we've seen?

4 A. Well, I can't recognise it on the basis of a picture like this.

5 Maybe it was, but I really don't know. I don't know when this was.

6 Q. Are you aware that Serb gunners were targeting houses in the

7 Bjelovac area in the counter-attack on the 15th of December, 1992, and

8 hitting houses?

9 A. I don't know. I really don't know that.

10 Q. Also, referring there to a sniper in a house who they're trying to

11 dislodge, are you aware that the Serb army would shoot buildings where

12 they suspected snipers were, in order to knock them out?

13 A. I don't know anything about that at all. All I know is what

14 happened from my house.

15 MR. JONES: We'll just play one more segment. It's just a minute

16 and a half or so, a couple of minutes maximum.

17 [Videotape played]

18 MR. JONES: Pause there.

19 Q. Now, can you look at that face, the face of that young man. I

20 asked you yesterday about Novo Ilic. Do you recognise that as Novo Ilic?

21 A. That could be him, yes. It looks like him.

22 Q. And that transporter we see behind, is that the sort of

23 transporter you were referring to as seeing on the road between Bjelovac

24 and Bratunac?

25 A. Probably.

Page 2401

1 MR. JONES: Play again the final segment. It's just another

2 minute.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Now, we see somebody who appears to be Borivoje Tesic there. Do

6 you recognise Borivoje Tesic on the screen?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You do know, don't you, that he was the newly appointed commander

9 of the Bratunac Brigade when it was created on the 14th of November, 1992?

10 A. I wasn't aware of that, didn't know about that.

11 Q. For the record, I think I should just read the subtitles into the

12 record:

13 "There was a grouping of forces that are retreating towards

14 Srebrenica. We are helping our forces in the area of Bjelovac and

15 Kunjerac. In less than an hour we are going to reach our aim and to

16 connect with the forces in the area of Bjelovac and Kunjerac."

17 My question is: Aren't these people that we're seeing well armed,

18 well equipped, organised Serb soldiers from Bjelovac participating in a

19 counter-attack on Bjelovac on the 15th of December, 1992? If you can help

20 us with that.

21 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

23 MS. SELLERS: Please, I understand counsel's intention, but just

24 in terms of phrasing, I don't think there's been anywhere on this video,

25 even if we do assume that the words that are spoken are true, that

Page 2402

1 indicates that they come from Bjelovac. That's just certainly not been

2 anything said in this video. So I would just ask you to rephrase the

3 question that you have just put to the witness.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: Well, we did see Novo Ilic, who we saw in an earlier

6 document, who was in the Bjelovac TO.

7 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. If you do mean a someone, a person who

8 originates from a town, that's different. Are you talking about that

9 those troops are coming from the town? Then please clarify that for the

10 witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Sellers is perfectly right. I would

12 suggest you rephrase the question.

13 MR. JONES: Indeed. I can omit to mention they're from Bjelovac.

14 Q. What we're seeing here are well armed, well equipped, organised

15 Serb soldiers participating in a counter-attack towards Bjelovac on the

16 15th of December 1992? If you can help us with that.

17 A. I can't tell you anything about that. I didn't see him.

18 Q. Let's go back to Novo Ilic for a moment. We have photographs,

19 still photographs.

20 MR. JONES: Could the usher assist, please, by distributing.

21 Q. I can start asking the question, Mr. Rankic. You told us

22 yesterday that Novo Ilic -- we saw that he was in the same Bjelovac TO as

23 you. We saw that in D90, Exhibit D90, ERN 0132-0428. The question is:

24 Did you have a nice uniform like Mr. Ilic did in this picture, on the day?

25 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me. On what day are you referring to,

Page 2403

1 Counsel?

2 MR. JONES: On the 14th of December, 1992; 14th, 15th of December,

3 1992.

4 A. I didn't have a uniform, not like this.

5 MR. JONES: Could this picture be given a Defence exhibit number,

6 please.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So this will be Defence Exhibit D96.

8 MR. JONES: Just a few more questions. Yes, I believe I was going

9 to tender these segments of the video. I don't know if that's actually

10 been done. If not, I would tender the segments which we've shown as

11 Defence exhibits.

12 JUDGE ESER: May I just ask you: Did you refer to D90?

13 MR. JONES: D90.

14 JUDGE ESER: D90. It bears a date of July 1992, whereas the video

15 has to do with December 1992. What is the connection between these two

16 dates?

17 MR. JONES: My question -- sorry. I'll wait for the

18 interpretation. This witness and Novo Ilic were in the same TO Bjelovac,

19 albeit in July 1992. We see Mr. Ilic is wearing a uniform there. My

20 question was: Given that at some point, in any event, they were in the

21 same unit, did Mr. Rankic also have a proper uniform such as Mr. Ilic had.

22 And the witness replied that he didn't have a uniform.

23 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And the suggestion, I take it, is if Mr. Ilic was

25 there, Mr. Rankic ought to have been there too. But Mr. Rankic has not

Page 2404

1 confirmed that.

2 Now, the -- yes, Judge Brydensholt.

3 JUDGE BRYDENSHOLT: As far as I remember, the witness answered

4 when you were asked if you had such a nice uniform: "No, I did not have

5 such a uniform." Did you have any kind of uniform at all, or were you

6 only wearing your civil clothes when you were guarding or commanding the

7 part of the guard?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did have a uniform of the former

9 Yugoslav army, and it was the olive-green-type uniform. That's the kind I

10 had; trousers and shirt and cap. It was called the Tito cap, Titovka. I

11 was a reservist then and that's the uniform I had, and that's the uniform

12 I wore.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So the sequence of clips that we have seen are being

14 tendered and received in evidence as Defence Exhibit D97, 97.

15 MR. JONES: Thank you, Your Honour. And thank you for that

16 question clarifying the issue of the uniforms. Perhaps just one further

17 clarification which follows.

18 Q. These uniforms, the uniform being worn by Novo Ilic and the one

19 being born by Mr. Tesic are not the olive-grey uniforms of the JNA, are

20 they?

21 A. No, no.

22 MR. JONES: Yes, we can remove the video now.

23 Q. In that video, we heard Serb soldiers talking about shooting at

24 houses, blowing up houses. I put it to you - if you can help us with

25 this, then please do - but the fact is the Serb counter-attack caused the

Page 2405

1 majority, if not the totality, of the destruction of houses that you saw

2 after the 14th of December, 1992, in Bjelovac and Sikiric.

3 A. I can't check that out, because I didn't see it.

4 Q. Now, just a few final questions. You told us a lot yesterday

5 about how you learned from other villagers how Muslim forces, on the 14th

6 of December, 1992, had split in two, and there was a third group who went

7 elsewhere, and you even drew it on the map for us. It's right, isn't it,

8 that none of that is based on your personal knowledge.

9 A. That's what the locals told us from Loznicka Rijeka that fled and

10 came to us. I didn't say that. They told us that.

11 Q. So if their information is wrong, you simply wouldn't know.

12 A. That's clear.

13 Q. You also told us that when the attack on the 14th started, that

14 you basically tried to save your skin; you fled for your life. But in

15 relation to that, I want to ask you if you recall making a statement to

16 Judge Vaso Eric, Investigating Judge of the Lower Court in Zvornik on the

17 22nd of December, 1994. Firstly, do you remember making a statement?

18 A. Maybe a little bit. It was a long time ago. Yes, I did give a

19 statement. I vaguely remember, but not --

20 Q. I'll put to you what you may have said on that occasion, and you

21 can say whether you agree or not. I quote, and for the English, it's the

22 -- it's page 2, seventh paragraph:

23 "I tried to organise the defence of the village right away. Among

24 other things, I called my neighbour, Stoja Petrovic, and told her to go up

25 to the attic of Nedeljko Damjanovic's house which had a good view of the

Page 2406

1 entire village."

2 A. It wasn't safe. It was the house next door to mine.

3 Q. So that much is true.

4 "I told her that once she was there, she should keep me informed

5 about what was going on so that it would be easier for me to organise and

6 run the village's defence, as we were surrounded on all sides."

7 Now, is that correct, that account, more or less?

8 A. Not 100 per cent, but near enough. Do you want me --

9 Q. I'll ask you a question before you go on. Isn't that right that

10 you must have had walkie-talkies or Motorolas or something to communicate

11 with someone who is up in an attic while you're running around the town

12 organising defences? She is not going to be shouting to you from the

13 attic.

14 A. I didn't have one. I didn't have a Motorola. I claim that for

15 sure. I didn't have one. And they were houses, next-door houses. It

16 would have been better had I had one.

17 MR. JONES: One moment, please.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. JONES: No further questions. Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. I would imagine there is a

21 re-examination, or not?

22 MS. SELLERS: No, Your Honour. I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Then we can finish with the witness now.

24 Do you have any questions? I don't have any questions either.

25 Mr. Rankic, your testimony ends here, which basically means that

Page 2407

1 you're free to go. You will be escorted by our usher to the room where

2 you were waiting yesterday and today. But your testimony now is finished.

3 On behalf of the Tribunal, I can assure you that you will receive

4 all the assistance you require to facilitate your return back home. And

5 on behalf of Judge Brydensholt, Judge Eser, and myself, and on behalf of

6 the Tribunal in general, I should like to thank you for having accepted to

7 come over and give testimony in this case. And may I also wish you on

8 behalf of everyone here a safe journey back home. Thank you.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break. We'll reconvene 25

11 minutes from now.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Wubben.

15 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I announced that Ms. Joanne Richardson

16 will take my place, but I take the opportunity to clarify, because during

17 the break, I tried to put everything in place, to the most extent. I had

18 not so much time, but at least I come to the following:

19 We disclosed on the 30th of November this box with documents. By

20 the way, the box was presented as such to carry it more easily than just

21 handing over like that, and it was well sorted, with an annex, and

22 accessible as that.

23 Now, this disclosure was meant to be a courtesy disclosure with a

24 view to a chunk, a big, big file of rules of the road disclosure that had

25 been done earlier, and this particular bunch of documents had been

Page 2408

1 disclosed as taking out of this big file, with a view to the witness

2 Filipovic.

3 Now, I noticed by myself that there is a confusing reference by

4 using the words that they may use as exhibits, and counsel is right for

5 that. When you -- obviously as the Defence counsel point of view see it,

6 you think by yourself, okay, it is the 30th of November. But by the way,

7 we have to go through it. Your Honour, I apologise for not being so clear

8 in that covering letter to the Defence.

9 The following day, on the 1st of December, I recall myself that

10 Madam Vidovic approached me and showed me a list of exhibits in the

11 Filipovic witness overview. Well, Your Honour, she asked me: Is this an

12 additional list, in addition to the exhibits, or does this replace the

13 previous list? And I checked with my case manager. I promised her I will

14 check this out and update you in the following break. I checked it out,

15 and explicitly I told her that this is not in addition, this list, and it

16 was a limited list, as I recall, I think I have a copy now, this is

17 replacing, and she nodded yes, that she understood. And that list has

18 also been sent through e-mail. After that, 1st of December, that was

19 yesterday, and after that came second list, and the final version of it.

20 Why I'm clarifying this, that at least yesterday there was a

21 question raised by the Defence counsel, is this list of exhibits, is this

22 in addition or is this replacing a first list? And now I understand more

23 about the background of the question, but it had been put on notice as

24 something to be questioned. And perhaps Madam Vidovic can further

25 clarify.

Page 2409

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but this new list, does it contain those

2 documents that are in that box?

3 MR. WUBBEN: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are back to square one. They still have to go

5 through that box, because the indication that they have been given is that

6 they may be used during the testimony of Mr. Filipovic.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Then I'm not clear enough. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

8 It is -- my confirmation was that it is replacing, meaning for her, at

9 least, that she could understand, so only these exhibits --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which exhibits?

11 MR. WUBBEN: The exhibits on the list. And there was a limited

12 number, referring to ERN --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the purpose of the documents that are in that

14 -- they were in that box? I don't see it any more. What's the purpose?

15 MR. WUBBEN: The purpose of the disclosure of that, of these

16 documents, was of courtesy to give the Defence the documents that are part

17 of a huge -- and we are disclosing hundreds of thousands of documents in

18 the past to the Defence counsel team, as a kind of re-disclosure to them

19 and to limit the relevant, from our searches point of view, the relevant

20 documents to that extent. So to be limited to that purpose, and on the

21 next day, at least any confusion should be clarified by my response to her

22 question and her relevant question.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you going to make use of any of those documents

24 during the examination-in-chief of Mr. Filipovic?

25 MR. WUBBEN: That's -- I can --

Page 2410

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No, in fact, I

3 will not be making use of any of the documents that were re-disclosed to

4 the Defence with respect to Mr. Filipovic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So basically the Defence need not even go through

6 those documents --

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, they can go --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- for the purpose of this witness, according to

9 you.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, according to me, I will not be

11 using those documents in the Prosecution's case in chief. Now, the

12 Defence may want to use them. I don't know. But these were documents

13 that were provided to them previously, and we just thought as a courtesy

14 to the Defence that they would want to have a specific stack of documents

15 related to that witness. Certainly, if the Defence had gone through the

16 disclosure that we previously made to them earlier in the year --

17 MR. WUBBEN: Sorry. From the 3rd of October.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. These documents will not be -- these

19 documents will in fact be familiar to them. These documents are not ones

20 that they would have been seeing for the first time as of yesterday.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, first of all, we

23 believe that Mr. Wubben should pay closer attention to what's going on

24 within the OTP. So far, I have written at least 30 letters in relation to

25 untimely disclosure or failure to disclose pursuant to the Rules. I will

Page 2411

1 not elaborate on this now. I have always requested that we be treated

2 fairly, especially in relation to our own actions. Believe me, Your

3 Honours, I found these documents in my locker last night, at 2.00. It is

4 true that this receipt carries the date of the 13th, but I only found them

5 yesterday, and we do go through our lockers at least three or four times a

6 day. That's one thing.

7 Secondly, this is an entirely different problem. On the 20th of

8 July this year, we carried out an inspection and we managed to locate a

9 whole series of documents in relation to a number of different witnesses,

10 not only in relation to Mr. Filipovic but to other witnesses as well. We

11 kindly requested that these be forwarded to us on a number of occasions.

12 Instead of being told yesterday that this is a group of documents

13 in relation to that request we made, we received them together with a

14 letter saying that these may be used. Therefore, I had no indication at

15 all from the OTP that they were talking about these documents that we were

16 after.

17 Be that as it may, we shall go through these documents again, or

18 at least that's what I assume, but I'm worried that there may be earlier

19 statements that are -- that remain undisclosed, and that the same thing

20 may happen again as happened with Witness Svetlana Trifunovic.

21 Therefore, my only request to the OTP is to make an extra effort

22 to locate these documents. I have had several conversations with Mr.

23 Wubben about this, and we spoke recently. I asked him to go through the

24 OTP's files. I kindly asked that if there were any further documents,

25 sensitive documents, documents perhaps of an exculpatory nature in

Page 2412

1 connection with Rule 68 and directly relating to witnesses, or statements

2 pursuant to Rule 48, challenging the credibility of witnesses.

3 Therefore, I will say this again: We do not want to aggravate our

4 relations with the OTP, and I do not want to try the Trial Chamber with

5 these issues. But can they just please go again through their files and

6 enable us to have a fair trial. A fair trial means that we have access to

7 all documents that might contain elements that are exculpatory for our

8 client. So much for me. Thank you very much.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I -- are there any further remarks or can we

10 close the incident now, hoping, hoping, that what we have been told at the

11 end of the day is correct. Because I would hate to think for a moment

12 that we end up with having a number of those documents actually being used

13 by the Prosecution in the course of the examination-in-chief of Mr.

14 Filipovic, because that would conflict matters at that point in time.

15 Yes. Otherwise certainly the argument -- yes, Mr. Wubben. Yes.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Well, a point well taken, and I apologised already

17 for the redaction. But again, I hope it is clarified in the order, and

18 the clarification yesterday put forward to Madam Vidovic that there was a

19 replacement, so there shouldn't be any confusion. But from the beginning,

20 yes, indeed, the letter may raise questions and that's why perhaps she --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can close the incident here.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anything else about this witness before we

24 bring him in?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. There's nothing in particular

Page 2413

1 with respect to this witness.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Could you please bring in -- escort Mr.

3 Filipovic.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you, Mr. Filipovic.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Before I proceed any further, I want a confirmation

8 from you that you are receiving interpretations of what -- interpretation

9 of what I am saying in a language which you can understand.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So welcome to this Tribunal. You are about to start

12 giving evidence very soon. Before you do so, our Rules require that you

13 make -- that you enter a solemn declaration, equivalent to an oath, in the

14 sense that in the course of your testimony you will be speaking the truth,

15 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text of the solemn

16 declaration is going to be handed to you now by the usher. Please read it

17 out loud, and that will be your solemn undertaking with us.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please be seated. Let me explain to you very

23 briefly what's going to happen.

24 First of all, this is the trial against Naser Oric. I am the

25 Presiding Judge. My name is Carmel Agius, and I come from Malta. To my

Page 2414

1 right, I have Judge Hans Henrik Brydensholt from Denmark; to my left,

2 Judge Albin Eser from Germany.

3 You will first be asked a series of questions by a member of the

4 team for the Prosecutor, for the Prosecution. I suppose it's Ms.

5 Richardson - correct me if I'm wrong - who probably has briefed you in

6 these last few days and who, therefore. You know. She will then be

7 followed by Madam Vidovic, who is lead counsel in defence of the accused

8 Naser Oric.

9 Your duty as a witness, even though you have been summoned as a

10 witness by the Prosecution, is not to draw any distinction between the

11 Prosecution and Defence, and to answer all the questions that are put to

12 you by whoever, irrespective of whether the questions are put by the

13 Prosecution or by the Defence, fully and truthfully. Because that is what

14 you undertook to do when you made the solemn declaration.

15 Having said so, I now ask -- call upon Ms. Richardson to start her

16 direct.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Examined by Ms. Richardson:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Filipovic. I will proceed to ask you to

20 confirm a number of facts with respect yourself.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You can lead.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Please confirm that you were born on April 1st, 1964; that you're

24 married; you are a Serb; and you have two children; you formerly worked in

25 a mine, the Sase mine, until April; and you are now unemployed. Is this

Page 2415

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you also lived in the village of Bjelovac, in the municipality

4 of Bratunac, and you lived there until 14 December 1992, with your wife,

5 parents, brother, and children; is this correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Just for the record, please state your full name.

8 A. Slavoljub Filipovic.

9 Q. Thank you. Now, the village of Bjelovac, is this a Serb village,

10 predominantly Serb village?

11 A. It's a mixed village. There were Muslim homes there as well as

12 Serb homes.

13 Q. Could you tell us approximately how many Serb homes there were in

14 1992 and how many Muslim homes?

15 A. I'd have to clarify something. Bjelovac is not a village; it's a

16 compound, a conglomeration of a number of villages. It's a local commune.

17 Myself, I come from the village of Loznica. Bjelovac is a local commune.

18 In terms of percentage, it was predominantly Muslim. As for the village

19 of Loznica, it was a predominantly Serb village.

20 Q. Thank you. In the village of Loznica, where you resided - and

21 thank you for that correction - were there any Muslim homes?

22 A. Yes. About six homes, thereabouts.

23 Q. And how many homes in total were there in Loznica in 1992 and

24 prior?

25 A. Loznica and Sikiric, about a hundred. Actually, 40 in Loznica, 40

Page 2416

1 homes. Correction.

2 Q. And approximately how many people would you say resided in

3 Loznica?

4 A. Four or five persons per family, so I would say roughly about 200

5 people.

6 Q. What did most of the residents of Loznica do for a living? Were

7 they farmers or did they work in the mine, as yourself?

8 A. Most of them worked in the mine, and some were farmers.

9 Q. Now, what types of buildings would one find in Loznica? Was there

10 a police station, a school, or any other type of government facility?

11 A. We had a health centre, a school, and a common home, as we called

12 it, which was an institution in the village.

13 Q. And could you tell us, the surrounding villages of Loznica, or the

14 hamlets, were they Muslim or were they Serbs or were they mixed?

15 A. With the exception of Sikirici, all were Muslim. Sikirici was

16 mixed.

17 Q. Okay.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could have the usher's assistance, with Your

19 Honour's permission, I'd like to ask that the witness be given this map,

20 and I'm also requesting an exhibit number for the Prosecution.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The sequential number is?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the exhibit number will be P451.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So this map is being tendered, received, and

24 admitted in evidence, and marked as Prosecution Exhibit P451.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask that the witness just --

Page 2417

1 Q. Mr. Filipovic, if you can, just turn to the map and point out to

2 the Trial Chamber where your village is located on that map. If possibly

3 you could be given something, a pen. Thank you. And if you could just

4 circle that, the village of Loznica.

5 A. The village of Loznica?

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. And could you indicate for the Trial Chamber where your home was

9 located, if you can find it, if you could approximate for us on the map

10 where your home would have been located.

11 A. [Marks].

12 Q. Thank you.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. Nothing else.

14 Q. Now, with respect to your village, did there come a time that

15 there were tensions in your village?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when was this?

18 A. Tensions were felt as soon as the war broke out in Croatia, and

19 after that, you could feel the stench of war and you could tell that war

20 would come to us too.

21 Q. And did there come a time that any of your neighbouring villages

22 were attacked?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when was this?

25 A. On the 28th of June, 1992.

Page 2418

1 Q. And what village are you referring to that was attacked?

2 A. Cijepala and Loznica, the mountainous area over there.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could just ask the usher's indulgence to

4 show the witness P451 again.

5 Q. Could you just indicate that village that you just referred to

6 that was attacked on June 28th, 1992.

7 A. [Marks]. I only circled Loznica. Cijepala, it's the same thing.

8 Q. And it was in June of -- June 28th, 1992 that this village was

9 attacked?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. And did you learn anything about who was responsible for the

12 attack on that village, or did you learn anything about the attack?

13 A. There was an attack organised by a commander. If you have no

14 commander, you can't carry out an attack. I'm talking about command

15 responsibility. It wasn't carried out just by random individuals.

16 Q. And who did you learn was responsible? Who was the commander for

17 that attack, if you know?

18 A. Naser Oric.

19 Q. Now, with respect to the village of Vlasenica, what happened to

20 the residents of that village after the attack? Did they remain in the

21 village or did they move elsewhere?

22 A. Not Vlasenica. I'm talking about Loznica.

23 Q. Sorry. I apologise.

24 A. Eight people were killed - six men, two women - 16 wounded, and

25 the rest retreated as far as this point right here, those who remained.

Page 2419

1 And the rest fled to Serbia and never returned.

2 Q. Did any of those people come to your village?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was that because they had nowhere else to go? Did they have

5 relatives there? Do you know?

6 A. Well, most of the relatives were up here in the mountain. When I

7 moved here in 1960 --

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't get the year.

9 A. -- there was not a single house there. So yes, most people had

10 relatives in the area.


12 Q. And did they seek housing in any other place in your village, for

13 instance, a school, or any other facility?

14 A. Most of those whose relatives had been killed left for Bratunac,

15 and so did the women.

16 Q. Now, after June 28th, 1992, did there come a time that your

17 village also faced violence?

18 A. I didn't understand the question.

19 Q. I'll repeat the question.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Go direct, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

22 Q. Did there come a time that your village was also attacked?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when was this?

25 A. On the 14th of December, 1992.

Page 2420

1 Q. Prior to the 14th of December, 1992, was your village attacked or

2 was your village fired upon?

3 A. Before the 14th of December, every day. It was under siege every

4 day. Because from our village, there was not a single Serb house or Serb

5 until Rogatica, until you got to Rogatica. They were all Muslims. There

6 were 30.000 soldiers behind our backs. And we had no communication with

7 Bratunac.

8 Q. Could you tell where the shooting was coming from? And if you

9 could indicate for us on Prosecution Exhibit 451, the map that's next to

10 you. Could you show us where the shooting was coming from on a daily

11 basis. No need to write on the map. You can just point.

12 A. From Pirici, a machine-gun opened fire every day from Pirici, and

13 from the forest as well, the edge of the forest. We were up by the road,

14 and there was 150 metres from the Drina to one and a half kilometres, so

15 it was the furthest point from the Drina to the forest, and they fired

16 round the clock, day and night.

17 Q. Now, before we get to the attack on the 14th of December, 1992,

18 did there come a time that your village organised a village guard?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when was this?

21 A. Just before the war broke out, or rather, the beginning of May,

22 the beginning of May. And as the war escalated, the -- it started in

23 Sarajevo, Zvornik, and moved towards us, the war did.

24 Q. And who was part of this village guard?

25 A. Mostly people from the village, from Srebrenica too, who had come

Page 2421

1 to visit their relatives, because Srebrenica remained pure. There were no

2 Serbs there any more. So around Srebrenica, everything had been

3 destroyed, the whole surrounding area.

4 Q. And how many men were in this village guard?

5 A. I don't know exactly.

6 Q. Was it 30, 40, 50, approximately, or even less than that?

7 A. Well, people were in their own houses, round their own houses.

8 What can I say? Not more than a hundred.

9 Q. Now, were you -- did you have weapons, the village guards, and did

10 you have uniforms?

11 A. There were weapons. Uniforms? Well, depends. If anybody had

12 uniforms, they were the ones that dated back to the TO. The commanders

13 received camouflage uniforms in both armies, on both sides. But for

14 soldiers, it was more difficult. It was difficult to come by uniforms.

15 It was for the commanders' recreation.

16 Q. Did everyone have a weapon, or did only some people manage to

17 obtain a weapon?

18 A. No, they didn't. Not everybody had a weapon.

19 Q. Did you yourself have a weapon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And where did you acquire this weapon, and what kind of weapon was

22 it?

23 A. I bought it in 1990, 1991. At the beginning of 1991 I bought one,

24 and it was only later, in 1993, that I was issued one from the army, at

25 the end of 1993. Because, you know, Bjelovac, we were joined to Skelani,

Page 2422

1 for example, Skelani and Bratunac. But nobody thought much about us. It

2 was only when Bjelovac fell that we were joined to the Bratunac Brigade.

3 Otherwise, no one gave us much thought.

4 Q. Did the village guard of your village receive any assistance from

5 the Serb army? In other words, did you receive weapons, training,

6 uniforms, prior to the attack on the 14th of December?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. And as --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because there's --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I noticed something missing in the transcript which

12 I am positive I heard the witness say, or at least the interpretation came

13 that way. The previous question, he said, "Because, you know, Bjelovac,

14 we were joined to Skelani, for example, Skelani and Bratunac. But nobody

15 thought much about us. It was when Bjelovac..." and it stops there.

16 However, I recall that he had said also, "It was when Bjelovac fell that

17 we were joined to the Bratunac Brigade. Otherwise, no one gave us much

18 thought." Is that what you said earlier on? It was when Bjelovac fell

19 that you were joined -- that you were taken into the Bratunac Brigade?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because Bratunac is 7

21 kilometres away from us. And with this division, who made the division

22 and who divided us up, I don't know, Skelani is 40 kilometres away from

23 us. And it would have been normal to go to Bratunac and not Skelani to

24 become part of Bratunac and not Skelani when Bjelovac fell and then the

25 people went to Bratunac.

Page 2423

1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But I'm talking of the Bratunac Brigade. Were

2 you joined with the Bratunac Brigade after Skelani fell -- after Bjelovac,

3 after Bjelovac fell?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's continue. But it was important,

6 because we will face it later on, in any case.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Indeed, Your Honour. Thank you.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.


10 Q. Now, with respect to the village guard, did you organise in such a

11 way that you had to patrol the village? And could you tell us how that

12 was done. And explain to us what are the duties of a village guard.

13 A. Mostly they were people standing guard round their own houses.

14 You wouldn't go to sleep. You would be on duty. You would do shifts.

15 Somebody would always stay awake.

16 Q. So bringing you to December 14th, 1992, when your village was

17 attacked, could you tell us what time that took place and what you were

18 doing on that day.

19 A. In the morning, at 5.30, that was when the attack took place, and

20 I was sleeping at the time.

21 Q. And what did you hear, if anything?

22 A. Shooting started coming from all sides. Everything was burning,

23 on fire. Everything was -- they were shooting all over. They came from

24 behind us, from our rear. They knew that the people would flee towards

25 the Drina River, because it's 500 metres away from the road. And they

Page 2424

1 were waiting for us to try and escape towards the Drina River. And then

2 they just shot at us and killed us.

3 Q. Let me just stop you for a moment. If you need to use the map,

4 you can use the one that's right next to you, and you can point to where

5 the shooting started when you first realised that the village was under

6 attack. And possibly draw an arrow. You can just point to where it was

7 coming from. Thank you.

8 A. [Marks]. It seemed to be coming from all sides --

9 Q. And what were you doing --

10 A. -- we were under siege.

11 Q. You say it was about 5.30 in the morning.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And were you with anyone? You were at home at the time. Were any

14 of your family members present?

15 A. I was awake until 3.00 a.m., and then I went to bed. They took us

16 by surprise. First of all, I thought they were owls, but I went to bed.

17 And when the first shots were fired, I jumped up. My father was in the

18 house with me, my brother was too, my mother, and two children.

19 Q. And what did you do? At some point did you leave your home?

20 A. As soon as I stepped outside the house, on the right-hand side,

21 towards Sikiric, the next-door neighbour, people had stormed that house.

22 My house is a new house and it looks towards the Drina. Just one floor,

23 the ground floor level was -- construction was finished there. But they'd

24 already gone to the Filipovic house. His wife managed to escape towards

25 the centre of the village.

Page 2425

1 Q. And let me stop you for a moment. When you say people had stormed

2 that house, which house are you referring to, and could you tell us what

3 people you're referring to. Could you describe them to us? Were they

4 soldiers or civilians? Could you tell what they were wearing?

5 A. On the right-hand side. The house to the right of my house.

6 Filipovic, my cousin, was killed, but his wife survived. His children

7 weren't there, just him and his wife. And he was killed but his wife

8 managed to escape. That's the next-door house to the right of my own

9 house.

10 Q. And who stormed the house?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly, because he didn't answer your question.

12 A. The late Stevo's wife.


14 Q. But you said before that they stormed the house. Could you tell

15 us who is "they"? Were these the people who were attacking the village?

16 A. No. When I -- they were already in the house when I went

17 outside. You could hear banging and things like that. They had already

18 taken the house. Nobody had escaped. They were already in the house and

19 had taken control of the house.

20 Q. And these were the people who were attacking; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And could you see them? Did you get a look at them from where you

23 were?

24 A. No. They were in the house, inside.

25 Q. Okay. And then what happened? What else did you observe?

Page 2426

1 A. I observed that they had taken control of the area from the Drina,

2 because on one side I saw them kill Milun Ilic from Srebrenica, for

3 example. He was moving towards Slavko's house and he was killed on the

4 way, and Bozo Todorovic too. They killed them all. There was shooting

5 coming from the forest, from the woods, and these -- they were running

6 towards the Drina. But the others were waiting for them like huntsmen and

7 killed them as they came out, came that way.

8 Q. So they were shot as they were fleeing?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what else did you -- what else did you do after this, and what

11 else did you observe?

12 A. When I saw that they had taken control of the right-hand side, on

13 the left, I was -- it was -- there was Bjelovac in the centre, towards the

14 left. And when Milun was killed and Bozo Todorovic was killed, my father

15 came to my house, Radovan Vucetic and Milenko. Radovan set out towards

16 the Drina, towards an auxiliary facility that I had, and I said: Let's

17 go. Or rather, he went. He didn't want to listen to me. And I just

18 heard him scream and cry. He asked for help, but we weren't able to go up

19 to him. I told my father and Milenko: There's no way out. What are we

20 going to do? I'm going to look for help, going to the centre of the

21 village.

22 Now, whether Radovan crawled on his own and managed to reach a

23 shed, he was found there, his legs had been blown, shot. But when I

24 arrived, nobody dared go up there. I returned to the Damjanovic house,

25 actually, to Slavko Rankic's house, crawling along. I had to crawl along

Page 2427

1 under fire all the time. And there was a machine-gun positioned 300

2 metres from the house, and it was firing at the village.

3 So I went into Slavko Rankic's house there. There were some women

4 there, elderly people. One person was wounded. And so I went back to

5 Nedeljko Damjanovic's house, where I came upon Dara, that is to say, the

6 wife of a cousin of mine called Stevo who had already been killed. And I

7 saw that my pigs were going along the road. They had opened all the

8 outhouses. And in 10 or 15 minutes, the house went up in flames.

9 Q. Which house went up in flames?

10 A. My house did.

11 Q. And where was your father at this time, and the other family

12 members? Do you know?

13 A. My father stayed in the new house, my new house, the one I was

14 building. And the other family member stayed inside the house.

15 Q. And when you said the house went up in flames, could you -- do you

16 know if the other family members were still in the house?

17 A. I didn't know anything of what had happened to them at all after

18 that.

19 Q. And do you know who set fire to the house?

20 MR. JONES: The witness didn't say anyone set fire to the house.

21 He said he saw it in flames. It shouldn't be suggested to him that

22 someone set fire to his house when he hasn't given that evidence.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'll rephrase the question.

24 Q. What did you observe of your home from Slavko Rankic's house? Did

25 you see your house, and could you tell what had happened to it?

Page 2428

1 A. Yes, I could see my house. It was 150 metres away, not even 200

2 metres, so yes, I could see it. So in my house, they stayed in my house,

3 and in a short space of time, the house started to burn, just like all the

4 other ones next door, the next-door houses. Everything was up in flames

5 when I left at 5.30 in the morning, when I went outside, the Jovanovic

6 houses, Loznicka Rijeka, and Sikiric, those houses.

7 Q. Did there come a time that you left the home of Slavko Rankic?

8 A. Yes, just to go to Nedeljko Damjanovic's house. It's next door, 5

9 metres away.

10 Q. And I just have one other question with respect to your house.

11 You said that the house started to burn. Do you know what caused it to

12 burn?

13 A. Well, it was set fire to.

14 Q. And do you know who set fire to it? Did you see the person?

15 A. No, I didn't see the person who set fire to it. The attackers,

16 those who attacked, they set fire to it.

17 Q. Now, you also testified that you went to the home of Nedeljko

18 Damjanovic. Could you tell us what happened when you got to his home, to

19 his house.

20 A. Nothing. The attack went on the whole day. I stayed there until

21 dark.

22 Q. And was anyone else there?

23 A. There was Dara Filipovic and Stoja Petrovic.

24 Q. And were they injured?

25 A. Dara was, yes. Stoja wasn't.

Page 2429

1 Q. And could you see what was happening in the village while you were

2 in Nedeljko Damjanovic's house?

3 A. Well, there was shooting. All you could see was their heads.

4 They took -- they were behind a shelter, but you would see a head come up,

5 shooting. And that's what happened, and that's what happened the whole

6 day. It went on the whole day. And most of the people were killed early

7 in the morning in the first onslaught, by 8.00.

8 Later on --

9 Q. Did there come a time that you were able to see who the attackers

10 were, whether they were soldiers or civilians, and how were they dressed?

11 A. In the afternoon, I just saw one man wearing a camouflage uniform

12 when he was coming out of Slavko Matic's house, Slavko Matic's house. He

13 had a backpack on his back and a band of some kind. It was towards dusk,

14 but he had a bandanna around his head; blue, I think. I couldn't see the

15 rest. They were shooting from a vantage point.

16 Q. Could you tell approximately how many there were of the attackers,

17 people who were shooting, at any point, from the time you left your home

18 to when you were in either of the houses in the village? If you know.

19 A. Well, there must have been about a thousand of them, certainly,

20 because there was shooting all over. It was real fireworks going on.

21 Everything was ablaze.

22 Q. And while you were in Nedeljko Damjanovic's house, were you able

23 to see anything else, see individuals taking anything or anything with

24 respect to the attack?

25 A. Well, you could see that. Whether I saw somebody that I could

Page 2430

1 name, I couldn't. I mean, I didn't see anybody's face up close, so I

2 couldn't name any names, because it was a hundred metres away. You can't

3 really recognise an individual at a distance of a hundred metres,

4 particularly as they were shooting from a cover. But --

5 Q. Did you see anyone carrying anything out of the village, taking

6 anything away from the houses?

7 A. Well, that day when they were withdrawing from Jovanovic's house,

8 they were taking things away, and that's here [indicates]. What did they

9 take? Well, you couldn't take any valuables, really, and goods weren't

10 important. What was important was lives. But you could see they were

11 taking things.

12 Q. And these people that were taking things, these were not people

13 from your village. Were these part of the people who were attacking your

14 village?

15 A. Well, the people who were attacking.

16 Q. Did there come a time that the attack ended? And before you

17 answer that, let me just ask another question. Did there come a time that

18 you were shooting during this attack?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. And when was this?

21 A. Well, I shot when somebody would -- when I saw somebody's head

22 rise up above the cover, I would shoot. But we had to keep them at a

23 distance, keep them away, keep them away from us.

24 Q. And what time did the attack end?

25 A. Well, when it got dark, at night, dusk. That's what happened in

Page 2431

1 all the villages. The attack went on during the day, and then they would

2 withdraw as night fell, when it's night-time. Then there was a lull and

3 it stopped.

4 Q. And you learned that this is what happened with other villages

5 that had been attacked?

6 A. Yes. That's what it was like everywhere; Zaluzje, Loznica, and

7 the others.

8 Q. And when you left -- after the attack, you came out of Mr.

9 Damjanovic's house, and what did you see?

10 A. I couldn't really see anything. I couldn't get up to the house.

11 I didn't have anyone to go with, so I went home. I went to the Petrovic

12 house. And there were some women there, women in the village. They were

13 getting ready to go to Serbia. I saw that there were none of my own

14 people there, my own relatives.

15 So Husic Novak, we took one of the wounded people off, but he died

16 en route. He was there the whole day. We got to the boat. I don't know

17 who was in the boat or how many of us were there or how we managed to take

18 people across. But I went to Serbia. And the people were waiting for us

19 along the road. There were lots of women and children, children going to

20 school. The women were in Serbia with them. They went to Vrhpolje, to

21 school there. They waited to see what was happening and who would turn

22 up. It was hell-fire.

23 Q. Could you indicate for us on the map where you crossed the Drina,

24 or the river, I should say.

25 A. [Marks].

Page 2432

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you put your initials against that line that

2 you just drew, please.

3 THE WITNESS: [Marks].


5 Q. And this is the Drina River that you --

6 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I would like to have it -- yes. The witness has,

8 for the record, put his initials, SF, on the line, which is visible on the

9 map D451, to the left of Grabovica, across the River Drina. Thank you.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. How many people did you cross the river with after the attack, and

12 did you cross over in a --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


15 Q. -- boat? I'll repeat the question. How many people did you cross

16 the river with after the attack that day, and did you cross over in a

17 boat?

18 A. In a boat, yes. Well, there were lots of people. Well, you can't

19 get more than ten people in a boat. I crossed over. I don't know how

20 long the evacuation went on for, how long they went on transporting the

21 people across the river.

22 Q. So there were a number of people on the Bosnian side of the river

23 waiting to cross over?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did there also come a time prior to your leaving the village after

Page 2433

1 the attack that there were soldiers, Serb soldiers, that appeared, prior

2 to your crossing over?

3 A. Yes. Yes. At dusk some soldiers came. But that was when I

4 left. I didn't ...

5 Q. Do you know if they stayed, if those Serb soldiers stayed in your

6 village?

7 A. Well, Bjelovac did not fall entirely on the 14th. The next day

8 there was shooting, on the 15th. They stayed until the evening of the

9 15th, and it was then that everyone was evacuated or had fled by that

10 time.

11 Q. Everyone meaning all of the residents from the village left?

12 A. Whoever was still there. I don't know who specifically. I didn't

13 return the next day. When they started ferrying the bodies across the

14 river, I was at the Drina. They were ferrying across boatfuls of dead

15 bodies. But they didn't allow me to go, because they knew what had

16 happened in my house and that I was left alone. They were bringing

17 bodies, my brother, and my father, I'm not sure when they brought him.

18 The first time I saw his body was at the morgue in Bratunac.

19 Q. All right.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: At this time, Your Honour, I would like to play a

21 video clip that was played yesterday by the Prosecution. I believe that

22 was Prosecution Exhibit 432.1.

23 [Videotape played]

24 MS. RICHARDSON: If we could have a moment, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Filipovic, do you recognise what's in this video that was just

Page 2434

1 played to you?

2 A. You can see my house on fire.

3 Q. And is that how it looked on the day -- on December 14th, 1992,

4 when your village was attacked?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, you just mentioned, Mr. Filipovic, your father.

7 Could you tell us when you first discovered that he had been killed.

8 A. I realised that he had been killed right away, 7.00 in the

9 morning. No one came out of the house, so I knew they must have been

10 killed. I was 100 per cent certain when I saw him at the chapel in

11 Bratunac.

12 Q. And what day was that that you saw him, his body?

13 A. The 15th of December.

14 Q. And from his injuries, could you tell that he had died violently?

15 A. He had been hit in the chest.

16 Q. Hit by what?

17 A. Rifle, rifle bullet.

18 Q. And did you learn what happened to your brother?

19 A. He had also been shot in the neck. It was an entry-and-exit

20 wound, straight through the neck. Probably he had been wounded for some

21 time, because his hands were full of grass and earth when they brought him

22 across to Serbia. Probably he had been wounded during the night, but

23 there was no one to help him.

24 Q. And when did you first observe his body?

25 A. On the 15th, the morning of the 15th, when they started to ferry

Page 2435












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2436

1 the bodies across.

2 Q. Now, did you ever learn what happened to your wife and children,

3 and could you tell us the ages of your children at that time, the day the

4 village was attacked, in 1992?

5 A. My son was six months old, and my daughter, three years old. I

6 knew nothing of their fate. I thought they burned alive in the house.

7 However, when I came to Serbia, there was a lady who said something about

8 them jumping into the Drina River, that their mothers threw them into the

9 river. And this was the only thing I learned. For about ten days, I was

10 certain that this was indeed what had happened.

11 Q. When did you learn that this was in fact not true?

12 A. Seven or eight days later.

13 Q. And what did you learn happened to them, that they were not --

14 they hadn't drowned in the Drina, but what were you told about their fate?

15 A. They told me that they had been captured and were now in

16 Srebrenica.

17 Q. And who captured them?

18 A. The army.

19 Q. Whose army, or which army?

20 A. The Muslim army.

21 Q. And what did you do after you learned that they were in

22 Srebrenica?

23 A. I found out when Naser joined in a conversation with a police

24 officer, on a bridge, via radio, and he said that they had been captured

25 and that they were with him. I was in some sort of a trance. I was

Page 2437

1 taking medication. I was drinking a lot of alcohol. I was receiving

2 treatment. I was emaciated; I weighed only 40 kilos. When I saw footage

3 of myself in those days, I couldn't believe my eyes, I couldn't believe it

4 was me.

5 And across the bridge there was a woman who worked in a shop. She

6 knew me. I came there and she was the first to break the news, that lady,

7 that they were alive.

8 Q. And other than being alive, did you know where they were being

9 held or where they were located?

10 A. In Srebrenica. I knew they were in Srebrenica.

11 Q. And who did you believe was responsible for them being in

12 Srebrenica?

13 MR. JONES: That's not an appropriate question, really. Who did

14 you believe -- if we can deal with information which --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you have to rephrase the question.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: It's not a problem, Your Honour. I can rephrase

17 the question.

18 MR. JONES: -- based on things that he actually knows.


20 Q. After you learned that your wife and children were in Srebrenica,

21 what did you do? Did you take any steps with respect to finding them or

22 learning any information about them?

23 A. Yes. I took steps immediately. I got up and went to see my

24 friend Milos Okanovic at Grabovac. His wife and he kept me alive. She

25 would take me to see a doctor and help me to stay on my feet, to stay

Page 2438

1 alive.

2 The house across the way from Bjelovac, I came to see him. He's a

3 radio technician and he's also a ham radio operator. He had been doing

4 that for over 30 years. I came to see him and I said: A while ago I had

5 recorded a conversation and then I erased it, and he said: Well, yes, I

6 heard the same conversation. That Naser called personally and said they

7 were with him in Srebrenica.

8 Q. Naser who? Did you have a last name? Did he tell you? Who was

9 he referring to?

10 A. Well, you just knew. Naser Oric.

11 Q. And did you take any steps with respect to -- well, what did you

12 do after that, after he told you that Naser Oric -- he had heard over the

13 radio that Naser Oric had them and that they were with him? What did you

14 do?

15 A. At first, the next day, because I found out late in the evening,

16 so the next day I went to Bratunac, to the command, and I asked to speak

17 to the commander, to see if an exchange could be arranged. However, there

18 was chaos there. There were no negotiations, as if it wasn't about

19 children.

20 Q. And then what?

21 A. I lost all hope. I went again to see my friend Milos. I tried

22 everything. On one occasion, I overheard a conversation - those were

23 coded conversations - a person referred to as "The Lion." He said Naser

24 was reporting regularly and his code-name was "Boss." So this person

25 said: Do you have anything to exchange? And he said, the boss said:

Page 2439

1 Yes. I have all the persons for the exchange, with the exception of the

2 women from Bjelovac. And that was when I lost hope. I couldn't

3 understand why, why it was them precisely that were not to be exchanged.

4 So I was looking for something to do, something that I could do,

5 and I came to see this friend again. I would listen to these radio

6 communications to see if I could hear something that was important. At

7 one point, Milos joined in a conversation with Naser, and he said: What

8 sort of a commander are you? Aren't you ashamed to keep these children

9 captured? You captured a six-month-old baby. Aren't you ashamed? And he

10 replied: Whoever is on the front line are soldiers for me.

11 Q. Just let me just stop you for a moment, Mr. Filipovic. Who were

12 you and Milos listening to? You were listening to the radio, and you were

13 overhearing conversations, and could you tell us who the conversations --

14 what were the voices, and who was part of this conversation?

15 MR. JONES: Shouldn't he be asked if he recognised any of the

16 voices?

17 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can get to that in a moment.

18 MR. JONES: It's jumping the gun a bit.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can proceed along the lines of this

20 question and we'll see --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the president, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies. Please proceed with your question and

23 then we'll take care of what you have raised. Yes, Ms. Richardson.


25 Q. The conversations that you and Milos were listening to, who were

Page 2440

1 those conversations between? Who were having those conversations?

2 A. Naser Oric and a person with the code-name "Lion." I'm not sure

3 who this person was. It was probably someone from Vlasenica, since they

4 also had their own detainees, and that's who this person was asking

5 about. And then he said that they were all to be exchanged, only the

6 women and children from Bjelovac were not to be exchanged.

7 Q. And after he said that, what happened next? What was the next

8 thing that you heard on the radio?

9 A. I've lost focus a little now.

10 Q. Do you need a few minutes?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we'll have a break --

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: -- instead of a few minutes. We are going to have a

14 25-minute break starting from now. Basically, we will resume at 5.00, in

15 other words -- at 6.00, sorry. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Filipovic. If you see that you are tired,

20 if you see that you are tired and you wish us to stop for today, just let

21 me know and we will stop whenever you tell us. I want you to give

22 evidence in a relaxed way. I know these are not events that are easy for

23 you to deal with. So at any time if you feel tired or losing

24 concentration, please draw my attention and we will stop for the day and

25 we will continue tomorrow. Don't worry about it. You will find us very

Page 2441

1 understanding. All right?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Ms. Richardson.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Filipovic, before the break we were discussing the radio

6 transmission, and we also -- you also testified that you were listening to

7 the radio with your friend Milos. I would like to ask -- my question to

8 you is: You said that you heard on the radio Naser Oric with someone by

9 the code-name of "Lion," and that they were discussing exchanges, but not

10 the women and children of Bjelovac. Could you tell us how you knew that

11 this was Naser Oric.

12 A. Well, the usual thing. He would spend a lot of time on the radio

13 link every day, and his voice was a familiar one. I knew it was he, and

14 he responded to the code-name "Boss" --

15 Q. Okay. Now --

16 A. -- "Gazda" in B/C/S.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, you said you were familiar with his voice. What

18 do you mean? How were you familiar with his voice?

19 A. I had occasion to meet Naser previously. I had repaired his car

20 on several occasions, around 1990. I was friendly with his father. His

21 father built diesel engines, and we did the regular engines. So we

22 exchanged jobs and we tried to help each other out.

23 Q. And you worked -- you fixed Naser Oric's car, and you said on

24 several occasions. Did you actually meet Naser Oric, had conversations

25 with him?

Page 2442

1 A. Yes. In 1990.

2 Q. How long were you and Milos listening that day before you heard

3 the comments about the women and children from Bjelovac?

4 A. I spent some time there every day. I was waiting to see whether

5 any news would come my way. I can't tell exactly how long on that

6 particular occasion. It was 12 years ago.

7 Q. I understand. And do you remember what time of the day, if you

8 know, that you actually overheard that portion of the conversation?

9 A. At dusk. I recall the continuation of that conversation, or

10 rather, our conversation. If you wish, we can pick up from there again.

11 Q. Yes. Please tell us about that conversation that you overheard.

12 A. That's how far we got. Naser talked to Milos Okanovic in the

13 following words: You're the Serb catching all our frequencies, and then

14 from Kunjerac some days later, his house was targeted and the house next

15 door to his was hit. His wife, Kralja Radovic, took the kids and left.

16 So many people in the area across the way from Bjelovac became refugees in

17 their own area. The children stopped going to school. They stayed in a

18 field not far from the river, in Kraljevo. The children were no longer

19 allowed to use the road, because some people had been wounded on the other

20 side of the river.

21 Q. Okay. With respect to the conversation, could you tell us again

22 what was said by you? Did you say anything as you were listening, after

23 the comment was made about the women and children from Bjelovac, or did

24 Milos say anything?

25 A. He said: Shame on you. What sort of a commander are you? I

Page 2443

1 think we've been through that. He said: You capture children. You keep

2 children detained. And he spoke back to him, saying: Whoever happens to

3 be on the front line, for me, is a fighter.


5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Filipovic, is this Milos still alive?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen his name amongst the list of

8 witnesses that the Prosecution intends to bring forward.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, the Prosecution will revisit that

10 issue, about whether or not we do intend to call him, but he is at this

11 time not on the list. But we are -- we will revisit our list as we go

12 along, and as witnesses come in and we get information.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to -- I think it's important for us to

14 know at this point in time whether you intend to bring this witness or

15 not.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can give you a further update

17 after I discuss this later with Mr. Wubben.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Because if you're intending to bring

19 this witness, it's one way. If you don't intend to bring forward this

20 witness or he's not available, then it's another case, and certain

21 questions could be directed to the witness by us or by the Defence, or

22 even by you, you know. I mean, it's ...

23 Yes, please go ahead.

24 JUDGE ESER: Mr. Filipovic, just for the sake of clarification --

25 just a minute here. Now, you said here he -- you said, he said: Shame on

Page 2444

1 you. What sort of a commander are you? Who is this "he"? Was it Milos,

2 your friend with whom you were listening, or was it a person who had a

3 conversation with the said Naser Oric? Was it "Lion" saying this or --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos.

5 JUDGE ESER: Milos. Between you and --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Milos.

7 JUDGE ESER: [Previous translation continues]... conversation

8 between both of you at that place? You did not have -- Milos did not have

9 direct conversation -- he had --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos and Naser had a direct

11 conversation.

12 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: In addition, I mean, it's a follow-up, you were

14 present during this conversation that Milos had with, according to you,

15 Naser Oric.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And you told us that you knew Naser Oric

18 personally.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: At this time, you already knew that there was no

21 intention on the part of Naser Oric - again, I'm repeating you - to

22 release the women and children from Bjelovac. You knew this already.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you think of using your former friendship or

25 acquaintance, whichever way you want to put it, with Naser Oric while you

Page 2445

1 were next to Milos to address him personally and say: I am the husband of

2 Mira and the little children? Did it occur to your mind? And if it did,

3 why didn't you do it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't do that.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there a reason why you couldn't do it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I left the whole thing to the

7 authorities and the armies.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough.

9 Yes, Ms. Richardson. My apologies to you for having interrupted

10 you. Please proceed.


12 Q. Now, you testified that you listened to the radio during the day

13 with Milos. Did you overhear any other conversations or comments by Naser

14 Oric during that time, other than what was said about --

15 A. Nothing further in relation to my case, and I wasn't much

16 interested in anything else. Everyone talked over this radio link. Ham

17 radio operators, the military, everyone took part.

18 Q. When you say "everyone," are you talking about the Muslim military

19 or the Serb military? Who are you referring to when you say "everyone"?

20 A. Ham radio operators from Belgrade got involved; the Muslim and the

21 Serb armies, people from Zvornik talked. It's a channel, a frequency they

22 used for military and secret. It wasn't really for military and secret

23 operations. It was more for fun that they used this frequency.

24 Q. Now, at the time you -- you testified previously that you were

25 traumatised, and that might be my description of what your state was, but

Page 2446

1 you were drinking and so on. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what your

2 state of mind was on that particular day that you were listening to the

3 radio? Were you -- and I should also ask: Were you drinking on that day

4 and were you able to listen attentively to the conversation?

5 A. I was able to listen attentively. Whatever my state of mind was

6 at the moment, this was something that very much concerned me personally,

7 so I followed closely, yes.

8 Q. Now, do you see the individual whose car you worked on in 1990,

9 previously, in the courtroom sitting here?

10 MR. JONES: If we're going to have a dock ID, that's --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move to the next question, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Fine, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Even a 2-year-old boy wouldn't miss the person.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Very well, Your Honour.

15 Q. Did there come a time that your wife and children were in fact

16 exchanged or released from Srebrenica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when was this?

19 A. The 16th of February, at Skelani. That's where the exchange took

20 place.

21 Q. You earlier testified, Mr. Filipovic, that you were a member of

22 the village guard. Did there come a time that you were mobilised by the

23 Serb military in 1992?

24 A. Yes. I received a call-up, whether it was late April or early

25 May. They did send call-ups, but no one responded from our village. We

Page 2447

1 were all just there. I'm not sure what the wording was.

2 Q. So you didn't report to the Serb military for training?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And you didn't receive any weapons or uniforms from them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You testified earlier that you were no longer working in the mine

7 in April of 1992. Were you -- how were you supporting your family?

8 A. We had some stocks, some supplies. We had a little money. I was

9 from a family that was rather well off, so this was not a problem. We had

10 enough to last us the war. Later on, the Red Cross came in too.

11 Q. And during that period of time, did you receive monies from any

12 authority?

13 A. Some money was distributed. I'm not sure about the

14 establishments. Those drivers working in the mines, the mine -- the

15 supplies in the mines were being sold. It passed through the military.

16 So several times, money was distributed to people, but I don't know how

17 many times or how much money exactly.

18 Q. Were you ever paid by the Serb military in 1992 prior to the

19 attack?

20 A. No one spoke to us. No one came to us. I don't know, the money,

21 where would it have come from. I see a list and I see that it's not my

22 signature or my father's. I'm not sure who brought it.

23 Q. But as far as you know, you were not paid by the Serb military.

24 No one -- you're not aware of being paid by the Serb military.

25 A. I'm not sure who paid the money, whether it was the military or

Page 2448

1 someone else. I know it was from the mine, the money from the mine that

2 was being distributed. Whether it was done through the military or in a

3 different way, there was a little money. But the amounts were not large.

4 Q. Did there come a time that you became an active member of the Serb

5 military following the attack?

6 A. Following the attack?

7 Q. After the attack in your village, did you become a member of the

8 Serb military then, after 1992?

9 A. I became one much later, after the attack. I was a member of the

10 TO and I had a work duty. I drove water to Bratunac. I could no longer

11 go there. They asked me to do something for them, so I drove -- I

12 transported water. That was my work assignment. You go as far as the

13 line. It was all the same army, although I did have a lot of trouble with

14 the military police. They'd come to pick me up, but I refused to go. And

15 at one point in time, for five or six months, I was in the military

16 records. I think in late 1993 or the 14th of February, 1994, I left the

17 military, and there was no way they could make me go back.

18 Q. Mr. Filipovic, are you a member of the SDS?

19 A. I did enrol when the SDS was established, at the beginning, but I

20 was never an active member, and I'm not on good terms with them anyway,

21 with the SDS.

22 Q. Do you recall paying membership dues or attending the meetings?

23 A. No. I didn't pay any membership dues, ever.

24 Q. Did there come a time that you returned to your village following

25 the attack?

Page 2449

1 A. In February, when it was liberated, five or six days later, I came

2 to the village and spent some two hours there. And then I went back to

3 Bratunac.

4 Q. Why did you return in February? Were you unable to return sooner?

5 A. Well, I was driving this cistern with the water, and so I had to

6 go back. But I couldn't actually go back until 2002, because everything

7 was destroyed. So where could I go back to?

8 Q. Now, after the attack on the 14th, and I believe you testified

9 earlier that on the 15th there was no one in the village, do you know if

10 the village was under Muslim forces or was it under the Serb forces at

11 that time?

12 A. From the 15th, you mean?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. On the 15th, everybody was thrown out, expelled, all our people,

15 all our forces were expelled, the civilians, the army, the army that had

16 come in as reinforcements. They all crossed the Drina River at night. In

17 February, I don't know the exact date that Bjelovac was liberated, but

18 there was nobody else left there. Whether the Muslims were there, whether

19 they were soldiers or civilians, I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't

20 know who was there. But they were there.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: I would like to at this time ask the usher to

23 assist with handing out some photographs we will be using with this

24 witness. And it's on Sanction. If we could have a Prosecution exhibit

25 number assigned.

Page 2450

1 MR. JONES: Could we be told when these pictures were taken?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we do have a witness that will be

4 coming in as we're --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but --

6 MS. RICHARDSON: -- using these photographs through crime-base

7 witnesses. But a professional photographer who actually took these

8 pictures - date, time, and circumstances, and under the circumstances the

9 pictures were taken - will be testifying shortly.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, if the photos are being made use of

11 during the testimony of this witness, which will soon be followed by the

12 cross-examination by the Defence, they are entitled to know when these

13 were taken.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe the photos were taken in

15 19 -- I believe 1993 or 1994. I'm sorry, I apologise --

16 MR. JONES: It must be possible to get the precise date.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: We do have the precise dates.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, yes, please, if you could find that

19 out.


21 JUDGE AGIUS: It should be available.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: We're doing that as we speak, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's start with giving the photos an exhibit

24 number. First of all, how many of them?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: There are --

Page 2451

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Fifteen?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And this will be Prosecution Exhibit P452?

4 452. And P452 consists of 15 photos marked sequentially from 0108-8029 to

5 0108-8043, both numbers included.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. As we're waiting for

7 confirmation of the date, if --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime, we can start.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

10 Q. Mr. Filipovic, you testified earlier that you returned to your

11 village in February of 1993. Did you have an opportunity to observe some

12 of the homes, the houses in the village, and observe the conditions of the

13 homes?

14 A. Well, what was burnt was burnt. The rest was destroyed. Roofs

15 taken off, all the woodwork taken away.

16 Q. I would ask you to take a look at your monitor, or -- and tell us

17 if you recognise Prosecution Exhibit 452, ERN number 8029. Do you

18 recognise that house, that structure?

19 A. On the right-hand side, the right-hand half, was the cafe

20 belonging to Drasko Sekaric, and the left-hand side, the left part of the

21 house was a family home, a family house. And on the right was also a

22 business premises, as I said, belonging to Drasko Sekaric.

23 Q. Now, when you returned in February, was this one of the structures

24 that you were able -- that you saw?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2452

1 Q. And does this -- the picture accurately reflect how it appeared to

2 you on that day?

3 A. Yes.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: The next photograph, 8030.

5 Q. Could you take a look at that building and tell us if you

6 recognise it.

7 A. It's the health centre in Bjelovac.

8 Q. And was this one of the buildings you saw in February?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And does this -- the picture appear as -- does the picture

11 accurately reflect how this building appeared on that day?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Next photograph, 8031. Do you recognise that building?

14 A. The same thing. It's the cafe belonging to Nedeljko Djokanovic.

15 Q. And is this how it appeared when you saw it in February? If

16 there's anything different, please let us know.

17 A. Well, there probably is some difference. In February, I passed

18 by. This photograph was taken later on. The grass is taller here. I

19 passed by in February. And I can see that the grass growing out of the

20 roof or walls is higher than it was.

21 Q. But does the building itself appear like you saw it in February?

22 A. I didn't know that they had been burnt down -- well, I didn't

23 focus on any differences. I wasn't interested in looking at the

24 differences and scrutinising each individual house. I just went back

25 through the village. I went back and saw that the village had been burnt

Page 2453

1 down. As to the damage and type of damage and extent of damage, I wasn't

2 in any expert commission to establish damages.

3 MR. JONES: Your Honours, I find something very artificial in this

4 exercise, in that unless Mr. Filipovic either took these photographs or

5 somewhere recorded which houses he saw in February 1993, one is left with

6 this rather strange coincidence that every single one of these pictures is

7 a house which he went and had a look at in February 1993. It may be a

8 point for cross-examination, but surely for an accurate record, one should

9 first of all ask Mr. Filipovic, Which houses did you see in February 1993,

10 without any photographic aid.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the first question should be: Do you

12 recognise this house or the remains of this house and move from there --

13 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- it would also be practical and move ahead, and at

15 the end of the day --

16 MR. JONES: Because we're prompting this witness to recall seeing

17 these houses in February 1993, which there's no reason to suppose he went

18 and looked at every single one of the houses that was photographed. It's

19 a very artificial exercise, and that's all I would say.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I would say: Do you recognise this building or the

21 remains of this house?

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I can continue --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?

24 MS. RICHARDSON: I can continue along that line. That's fine.

25 The witness seems to be answering for himself who's building this is and

Page 2454

1 so it's precluding me from asking that very question.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, it's not important. I mean, it's not going

3 to change anything at the end of the day.


5 Q. Please look at the next photograph, 8032. Do you recognise this

6 house?

7 A. I know who the old owner is, two brothers, Djokanovic, and this is

8 Milivoj Djokanovic's house.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see this house in this condition, as

10 shown in this photo?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can't be sure. I know -- I

12 recognise the house. I know the house. Now, this state, well, I passed

13 by, saw the village had been burnt. Now, what state this house was in, I

14 really can't say. The elements added to the damage, because the rain and

15 everything else --

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is -- the witness

17 said "I don't know," and here it says "I'm not sure." The -- I would like

18 to ask the interpreters to take care when they're translating.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Did you say you're not sure or did you

20 say "I don't know"?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean whose house this is?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. Not whose house it is. Whether you had

23 ever seen it in this condition.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw that the village had been

25 burnt. Now, whether I saw it in this actual condition, I went past the

Page 2455

1 village, I spent two hours there. I was more interested in reaching my

2 own house rather than scrutinising the other houses. I saw that it had

3 burnt, been burnt. Now, in assessing the extent of the damage, well, I

4 really can't say exactly.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And when would this be? Which month and which year

6 that you could have possibly seen --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I went in the first time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: You see, if you move --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The first time. That is, in which month and

11 which year?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] February 1993. It was -- there was

13 snow in the village when I entered.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next photo.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And I think if you move along these lines, we will

17 get there quicker.


19 Q. If you take a look at that photograph. And could -- do you

20 recognise that house?

21 A. Vladimir Djokanovic's house.

22 Q. And is this the condition of the house when you went through the

23 village on February 1993?

24 A. I saw that it had been set on fire. Now, whether it looked like

25 this, the nuances, I don't know, but I remember it being roughly like

Page 2456

1 that.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: [Microphone not activated].

3 JUDGE AGIUS: 8034.

4 A. I can just identify the house and say that's the house. I can't

5 say what it looked like in February, what it looks like now and make the

6 comparison.


8 Q. That's fine. Do you recognise the owner of this house? Whose

9 house is this?

10 A. Rankic. Tomo and Radoj was the next house.

11 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next photograph. 8035.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat that answer, please.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you repeat your answer, please. Whose house

14 is this?

15 A. Ivko Ilic's.


17 Q. And based on your memory, does this look anything like it did when

18 you went through the village in February? If you don't recall, that's

19 fine.

20 A. Well, I don't remember.

21 Q. Okay. 8036, do you know --

22 A. Radovan Jovanovic's house.

23 Q. And do you recall going by this house, and does this picture

24 appear as it did then? Excuse me.

25 A. Yes. I walked past that area. I walked past them all. I have to

Page 2457

1 keep repeating that I wasn't interested in noticing things like that. I

2 wanted to see what my house was like in February, or what it looked like

3 when these photos were taken. The village had been set fire to, so what

4 had burnt down had burnt down.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Filipovic. For the next series of photographs we

6 would just ask you if you identify it and then we will move on. So next

7 photograph, 8037, do you recognise that house and who it belongs to?

8 A. The community centre.

9 Q. 8038?

10 A. Bozana Jovanovic's house.

11 Q. 8039?

12 A. Mihajlovic Srecko's house. Srecko Mihajlovic.

13 Q. 8040?

14 A. Bozana Damjanovic's.

15 Q. 8041?

16 A. Spomenka Vucetic's house.

17 Q. 8042?

18 A. My house.

19 Q. Now, in February -- you saw your house in February. Did your

20 house appear similar to this picture?

21 A. Well, there weren't more damages. A little bit of the roof

22 remained standing so that the walls were protected.

23 Q. Okay. And the next photograph, 8043, do you recognise this

24 house? It's a bit of a distance, but can you tell whose house this is?

25 A. Radojka Damjanovic's house.

Page 2458

1 Q. Now, did anyone -- did you receive compensation from the Bosnian

2 Muslim army for damage to your home?

3 A. No.

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson.

6 MR. JONES: Your Honour, it's just -- this question is always

7 requested and I've objected to it once. I won't insist on objecting to

8 it. But firstly it presumes that the Bosnian Muslim army was responsible,

9 which is an issue in trial. But secondly, we come back to the point that

10 what is the Bosnian Muslim army.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: You ask me? I don't know.

12 MR. JONES: Precisely. What does that even mean?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: At the end of the day, it's a question of evidence

14 and proof, Mr. Jones, as you know.

15 I have a question for you, sir. You have seen here 15 photos of

16 houses. Each photo shows a house. And each house seems to be either

17 destroyed or seriously damaged. When you visited the village in February

18 of 1993, were any of the houses that you have seen in these photos in one

19 piece, undamaged or undestroyed?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Do you have any further questions?

23 MS. RICHARDSON: No, Your Honour. In fact, I do not. However, I

24 do have that information with respect to the date of the photos.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: The photos, yes.

Page 2459

1 MS. RICHARDSON: The photos were taken sometime between 8 July

2 1994 and August 1994. Again, it's a project. The photographer will be

3 coming in to give testimony about --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But at least we know that they had seen two winters,

5 I mean, and two summers.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

10 We have 15 minutes, Madam Vidovic. Do you want to start now or do

11 you want to start tomorrow?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to begin

13 tomorrow, with the Court's indulgence, because I would like to look

14 through the box and then be allowed to begin tomorrow, if that is at all

15 possible.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Fair enough. Fair enough.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So we'll give you a rest, Mr.

19 Filipovic. We'll let you go back to your hotel. You will return to the

20 courtroom, to this Tribunal, tomorrow in the afternoon, same time like

21 today, and we will start, hopefully, at a quarter past 2.00 and try to

22 finish with you tomorrow.

23 I want to make sure that between today and tomorrow, you will not

24 contact or discuss the matters of your evidence and these events with

25 anyone, neither members of the Prosecution nor other witnesses that may

Page 2460

1 have come from your area, absolutely no one. And if anyone approaches

2 you, tomorrow afternoon, first thing, you need to tell me.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: That also includes telephone calls that you may make

5 or receive from persons in your own country or persons -- other persons

6 elsewhere. Okay?


8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. So the sitting stands adjourned until

9 tomorrow at 2.15, Courtroom I. Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.46 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of December,

12 2004, at 2.15 p.m.