Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2761

1 Thursday, 9 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Case number

7 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Registrar.

9 Mr. Oric, can you follow the proceedings in a language you can

10 understand?

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours, ladies

12 and gentlemen. Yes, I can.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. You may sit down.

14 Appearances for the Prosecution.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good afternoon, Your Honour. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel, Joanne

18 Richardson, and our case manager Donnica Henry-Frijlink. And also good

19 afternoon to my learned friends of the Defence team.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Wubben. Good afternoon to you and

21 your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I am

24 Vasvija Vidovic, appearing for Mr. Naser Oric together with Mr. John

25 Jones. Joining us today are our legal assistant, Jasmina Cosic, and our

Page 2762

1 case manager, Geoff Roberts.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good afternoon to

3 you and your team.

4 So before we admit in the witness, there are a couple of matters I

5 would like to raise. You will recall that some time back, some time back,

6 we granted -- we admitted in evidence two Rule 92 bis (C) statements; one

7 was a written decision and the other one was an oral ruling. You will

8 recall the two persons involved.

9 Now, the motion, when filed, and that is on the 27th of September,

10 was filed confidentially, with the consequence that the statements that

11 the Prosecution was seeking to have admitted under Rule 92(C) were not

12 public and were not treated as such by the Trial Chamber. With hindsight,

13 we really don't see why the two statements ought to remain confidential,

14 and why they shouldn't, in other words, become public domain.

15 I am raising this issue formally so that I have a feedback. Of

16 course, Mr. Wubben or Ms. Richardson, if you still have good reason to

17 show why these two documents, two statements, should remain confidential,

18 the Trial Chamber would entertain your views, hear the Defence, and then

19 obviously take a stand. But if you don't, then we can cut the discussion

20 short and we can issue an order making these two statements public, in

21 spite of the confidentiality that was given to them when they were first

22 filed as part of the confidential motion of the 27th of September, 2004.

23 Mr. Wubben.

24 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, will you please give me the time until

25 the after -- until after the first or second break to make an oral

Page 2763

1 submission in that respect.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You will have the first break.

3 The second relates to a most recent filing in our case, and that's

4 a confidential Prosecution request for the issuances of a subpoena

5 ad testificandum with an ex parte annex. I suppose you have received it

6 already.

7 Is there any objection on your part for the issuance of the

8 subpoena?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour, none. We agree

10 with that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So the motion is being granted. There will not be a

12 written decision. It's been granted already.

13 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I've been informed that the formality required for

15 the issuance of a subpoena usually requires a written decision, so there

16 will be, for all intents and purposes, a written decision along the lines

17 of the oral decision that we have just given, all right?

18 Yes, any further preliminaries before we admit the witness?

19 Madam Vidovic.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I will raise two

21 issues briefly, the first concerning tomorrow's testimony of Witness

22 Miladinovic. There has been no reference to any protective measures;

23 therefore, I am mentioning his name in public.

24 Yesterday, we received proofing notes from the OTP that are

25 entirely illegible, and we asked for a new copy. At 20 past 9.00 today we

Page 2764

1 received a new set of proofing notes stating that the witness is,

2 illegible [as interpreted], can't read or write, stating further that he

3 is short-sighted 11 degrees. I wish to say that again we have yet another

4 witness appearing who suddenly becomes illegible as soon as he is here in

5 The Hague to testify.

6 The fact is this witness has been interviewed twice by the OTP;

7 the first time in March 2000 and the second time in 2003. In neither of

8 these statements is there any reference at all to the fact that the

9 witness is illiterate. The witness signed both statements as well as the

10 dates of the statements. He recognised the numbers on the photographs and

11 described exactly the content of the plaque that was smashed in Kravica,

12 the memorial plaque.

13 I must express my concern yet again at the way the OTP is

14 conducting their case. If the witness really is illiterate, as has been

15 suggested, then there must have been something in his prior statements to

16 confirm that. The question of literacy is a routine issue that is always

17 raised in all legal proceedings anywhere in the world. The fact is that

18 the OTP has yet again succeeded in making us waste our time by putting us

19 in a position to cross-examine this witness in a way that is not adequate.

20 Your Honours, rest assured that I would have prepared my

21 cross-examination in a totally different way had I known at the outset

22 that the witness was illiterate. Be that as it may, I will present all

23 the necessary documents for the benefit of the Trial Chamber. However, I

24 must yet again plead with the Trial Chamber to put a stop to these

25 unacceptable practices on the part of the OTP. At the very least, we must

Page 2765

1 be told ahead of time that a witness is short-sighted or illiterate, the

2 first reason being to be given a chance to properly prepare my

3 cross-examination, and the second reason being that I have a chance to

4 look into whether the witness really is illiterate or short-sighted or

5 not.

6 Therefore, we would like the OTP to check the literacy of all

7 future witnesses, and to please forward this information by the Christmas

8 break, or as soon as otherwise possible. Believe me, Your Honours, I will

9 look into these facts carefully and carry out my own investigations into

10 these issues. Therefore, if this initial may please be discussed briefly,

11 and then I would like to move on to something else.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Who is going to respond, Mr. Wubben or

13 Ms. Richardson?

14 MR. WUBBEN: Yes, I will, Your Honour. I object to the

15 qualification of wasting of time regarding this witness. Counsel had --

16 counsel of the Defence has already dealt with it in a previous time on

17 cross, and cross-examination is the appropriate situation in which counsel

18 can check out whether or not someone is illiterate.

19 Let me put forward that there is no legal basis to request or

20 demand from the Prosecution to check out every witness, whether or not he

21 or she is illiterate. It is of importance whether or not this witness can

22 tell or confirm or clarify details, facts, for you as a -- you as Judges.

23 That's the nucleus, and I see no -- also not from the case law, any demand

24 towards the Prosecution to provide this information in advance in such a

25 way when it is not available. As it was for me available, I confirmed

Page 2766












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Page 2767

1 that towards Defence counsel through the proofing notes.

2 Let me also underline that when a witness cannot read or write,

3 it's here about oral evidence, and they know it's also beneficial to

4 confront a witness with a -- with some written notes or whatever,

5 document. But the same when it comes to equality of arms is addressing

6 the Prosecution side, when we are also having this disadvantage. And

7 again, in addition, then a witness is still able to recognise pictures,

8 photographs, and so on. I see no prejudice, with a view to equality of

9 arms. I see no legal basis for putting such a condition on the

10 Prosecution side.

11 Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Second point, Ms. Vidovic, unless you want to reply

13 to Mr. Wubben's remarks.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Honours.

15 The legal basis is provided by Rule 54, envisaging that the

16 accused has the right to a fair trial, and the right for every witness,

17 therefore, that implies that we have the right to cross-examine a witness

18 on all relevant circumstances, including the presentation of documents.

19 It surely must be a waste of our time if we're expected to prepare this

20 witness by going through 10 or 15 documents and through a great number of

21 other documents in the archive in order to prepare our cross-examination.

22 As for the fact that they are not duty-bound by the Rules to

23 submit this sort of information to us, I leave that to the Trial Chamber

24 to decide for yourselves.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Second point?

Page 2768

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The second point is of a more

2 serious nature, yet more serious nature, I should say, Your Honours, the

3 first one being quite serious as well. It goes to the testimony of

4 Mr. Ratko Nikolic, and today's witness, Nikola Popovic.

5 I need not remind the Trial Chamber that Naser Oric has been

6 accused of the most serious crimes, including murder. For our information

7 in relation to on-site investigations, post-mortems that were conducted

8 and exhumations is of great relevance.

9 Your Honours, I would like you to refer to the case law of your

10 respective countries, or any court of law throughout the world. I am

11 entirely certain that none of these courts could make rulings if they were

12 in no position to look into the post-mortems or exhumation reports, as

13 well as any other details in relation to these and referenced in witness

14 testimonies.

15 In the case of Mr. Kostadin Popovic's testimony, this is of the

16 utmost relevance. We know, based on the testimonies of at least two or

17 three different witnesses, that an exhumation was carried out of a body

18 purported to be that of Kostadin Popovic. In my letter of the 17th of

19 November, 2004, I addressed the Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska

20 and the first instance court in Zvornik seeking to obtain all the relevant

21 documents in relation to the exhumation of Mr. Popovic's body. The file

22 number with that court is 345/95. The reply was that the case was

23 forwarded to the district prosecutor's office of Zvornik, or rather,

24 Bijeljina, which then took over the case.

25 On the 4th of December, 2004, I submitted a letter to the district

Page 2769

1 public prosecutor's office, office of Bijeljina, in which I asked for the

2 following: "In order to submit relevant evidence, in my capacity as

3 defence counsel for Mr. Naser Oric, and pursuant to the constitution of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina I envisage the cooperation of all courts, and pursuant

5 to the law on freedom of information and access to information, I request

6 that I be forwarded a photograph, A2, which is part of the accompanying

7 evidence in relation to the exhumation of Mr. Kostadin Popovic conducted

8 by Mr. Zoran Popovic. The text below the photograph number 2 is a paper

9 containing the personal data of the victim after the blanket was opened."

10 I went through all the details of this entire file, after which

11 the public district prosecutor from Bijeljina kindly informed me as

12 follows: "Further to your request for submitting documents, I hereby

13 inform you that as for the documents at the disposal of this prosecutor's

14 office in relation to the case of Naser Oric, we do not have any data in

15 relation to this. The documents relating to that person have been

16 forwarded in part to the International Criminal Tribunal for war crimes in

17 The Hague, and these documents have never been returned."

18 My office talked directly to the prosecutor, asking for further

19 clarifications, and he replied that he only had a copy which have been

20 submitted to us. Therefore, Your Honours, the way it looks to us now, we

21 have a perfectly clear indication that the OTP, at some point, obtained

22 these documents and that these were never disclosed to us. They failed to

23 disclose to us a fundamental piece of evidence in relation to Kostadin

24 Popovic's testimony.

25 Likewise, it seems that we have been prevented in obtaining these

Page 2770

1 documents from the original source. The Bijeljina prosecutor requested

2 that I come in person to go through whatever files they had, claiming that

3 he would make them all available to me for inspection, but saying also

4 that he could not give me something that they simply didn't have.

5 Your Honours, I wish to draw your attention today to something

6 that is within my rights as Defence counsel in this case. It seems to me

7 that from the very outset, I have been defending my client with my hands

8 tied at my back, and therefore I only have one free hand to use to further

9 pursue the matter for. We believe that the OTP should submit to us all

10 these documents and similar documents so that we could have proper

11 cross-examination, or else there will be such errors of fact in this trial

12 that justice will simply not be done. As for myself, in my capacity as

13 Defence counsel, I definitely wish to take no further part in anything

14 like that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Wubben or Ms. Richardson.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I can respond in

17 part to Defence counsel.

18 Your Honour, with respect to the testimony of the witness today

19 who will be continuing, Nikola Popovic, who is the son of Kostadin

20 Popovic, the victim or the person -- the deceased person to whom Defence

21 counsel is referring, I don't want to make any assumptions, but it appears

22 to me as though the Defence will be seeking to cross-examine this

23 particular witness about his father's autopsy. And if I'm wrong, the

24 Defence can correct me.

25 It's my understanding that we have disclosed information to the

Page 2771

1 Defence, and I would ask for the Court's indulgence, at least until the

2 break, so we can determine exactly which documents were disclosed to them,

3 what part of the autopsy or medical records were in fact disclosed or

4 which ones were not, so we can provide an accurate record to the Court of

5 what was provided.

6 And in addition, the doctor himself who performed the autopsy will

7 be testifying after the Christmas break, so the Defence will have adequate

8 opportunity, though I am not in any way instructing the Defence not to

9 attempt to cross-examine this present witness with respect to the autopsy

10 of his father. I'm just saying that the person who conducted the autopsy

11 will be available.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: What about the report itself, the official records

13 of the autopsy which the office in Bijeljina maintains has forwarded to

14 you?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: And which the Defence claims to have never

17 received?

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I honestly do not have a response to

19 that concern at this time. I do know that the Office of the Prosecutor

20 did disclose information about certain victims, and I couldn't tell you

21 offhand now at this moment whether or not we received documents from

22 Bijeljina and whether or not those were the documents that we disclosed or

23 failed to disclose to the Defence.

24 Again, Your Honour, I ask the Court's indulgence. I don't know

25 off the top of my head whether or not this was done.

Page 2772












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Page 2773

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --


4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will try to be as

5 brief as possible.

6 We did receive certain information, and we pursued this

7 information, totally heterogenous information as far as two different

8 witness statements are concerned, we carried out our investigation. We

9 are looking for an entire file, which means the record of an on-site

10 investigation, the report by an investigating judge, and what exactly was

11 found. We are talking about a specific exhibit here. We have

12 information, on the one hand, and, on the other, evidence that we are

13 entitled to inspect, including a post-mortem report that was handed over

14 to the court, including everything that was given over to the court in

15 Zvornik. You do agree that we have the right to inspect all of these.

16 And we know exactly what the information is that we have been given, and

17 we know what our rights are and what we are entitled to in order to

18 properly defend our client.

19 Thank you.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may. I'm not contesting the

22 fact that the Defence is entitled to certain information. It's not that

23 at all. It's just at this time I don't have a list of the documents that

24 were disclosed with respect to the autopsies.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will suspend the sitting for a few

Page 2774

1 minutes so that we have consultations outside the courtroom. We'll be

2 back in a matter of minutes, so please stay here.

3 --- Break taken at 2.40 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So we have deliberated and we come to the following

6 conclusions unanimously. I'll start with the first issue raised by Madam

7 Vidovic.

8 We do not believe that we can impose an obligation on the Defence

9 along the lines suggested by -- on the Prosecution along the lines

10 suggested by the Defence, namely, to verify between now and the recess

11 which of the remaining witnesses are illiterate and which are not, and to

12 hand down a proper list. We don't believe that the Prosecution is under a

13 legal obligation to do so.

14 However, we do believe that this is a matter of courtesy. We do

15 believe that the complaint raised by Madam Vidovic, namely, that not

16 knowing that this person allegedly was illiterate, she prepared her

17 defence questions on the assumption that she could show him documents

18 which he could read and answer about promptly, only to find out that this

19 is not possible because you maintain that he is illiterate, we don't

20 believe that this is fair.

21 So it's a question of making the best use of the limited resources

22 that each one of you have, and as you know, the Defence, when compared to

23 the Prosecution, has less resources than you have. You are always in a

24 better position to know whether a witness is literate or not. I would

25 take it that your investigators questioning the witnesses should enter

Page 2775

1 into the record whether -- if the person is illiterate, I think that some

2 way you should have it.

3 And I would advise you - I would advise you, although we cannot

4 bind you - I would advise you to do the exercise that has been suggested -

5 not necessarily up to Christmas but do it at your earliest - and if you

6 have the information, then pass it on to the Defence. We say it's a

7 matter of courtesy, first and foremost, and of course it is a matter of

8 courtesy, first and foremost. However, it's also a matter of being

9 pragmatic and practical, because there is nothing to stop Mr. Jones or

10 Ms. Vidovic, or whoever, on a particular day when they hear, or they come

11 to know that the witness that they are supposed to start cross-examining

12 today or tomorrow is illiterate saying, We were not prepared for this, we

13 need to reprogramme the whole defence approach and strategy, questions,

14 et cetera, and we may find ourselves coming here only to go back home

15 after five minutes because of this unfortunate problem.

16 So I think I have been more than clear. I think I have been more

17 than clear. We don't see any question of equality, fairness, or legal

18 obligation here. We just see it's a matter of being courteous and being

19 practical. Otherwise, there will be consequences. Otherwise, there will

20 be consequences. Not consequences from the Trial Chamber vis-a-vis

21 imposing you, consequences having one day sitting maybe more simply,

22 simply, simply blown up; you know, ruined.

23 That disposes of the first matter.

24 The second matter, we agree, the three of us, with Ms. Vidovic

25 that this is a serious matter, and we appreciate the fact that she has

Page 2776

1 raised this matter, because indeed we agree that the accused should have

2 at his disposal all the information, all the data, that are provided for

3 under the Rules in order to be able to provide for his own adequate

4 defence.

5 Now, we have taken note of the fact that you seem to not be in a

6 position to state here and now whether the document -- am I wrong,

7 Ms. Richardson? Have you got the information now?

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, thank you. I was able to

9 ascertain within the last few minutes that what we have disclosed, and we

10 will look into that document that Ms. Vidovic has been referring to --

11 that, we don't know. But I do know that the forensic report was -- on

12 Mr. Kostadin Popovic was disclosed on the 25th of June, 2003. Then there

13 was an autopsy protocol that was also provided on the 22nd of April, 2003.

14 We're looking into that specific report that the Defence has just raised.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree, Madam Vidovic, that these two

16 documents have been disclosed when stated?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I cannot confirm this

18 until I have checked it, because I have heard things like this many times.

19 However, my point is something else. They have disclosed information

20 about the autopsy conducted by Dr. Stankovic. What I'm referring to is

21 the entire court file which should contain a record of the on-site

22 investigation, a record of the autopsy, a record of the objects found.

23 And this is something I have certainly never received.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So the question is this: You need time, obviously,

25 Ms. Richardson, to verify this.

Page 2777

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, in fact, I do, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: We have got two options. One option is to go back

3 to our chambers and give you all the time you require, and then come back,

4 and we take it up from there; in the meantime, we will not be starting or

5 continuing with the testimony of Mr. Popovic. The consequence would be

6 that we would certainly not finish with Mr. Popovic today, and we

7 certainly will not even start with the next witness tomorrow.

8 So we have discussed this in the light that certain documents are

9 available, and hoping that the other main document that Madam Vidovic is

10 referring to may be located and disclosed. Can we proceed with the

11 testimony of Mr. Popovic?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will put questions to

13 Mr. Popovic in a certain way, but to say the least, if they have these

14 documents in their possession, as transpires from the letter from the

15 public prosecutor, I would like them to disclose this to us so that we can

16 use it in our cross-examination of the next witness, that is,

17 Dr. Stankovic.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Absolutely, Your Honour, we will disclose this

19 information. As soon as we determine whether we do have it and it is in

20 our possession, we will have it to the Defence immediately.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And with the other caveat - I'm making it very clear

22 on behalf of the Trial Chamber - that if this document indeed exists. And

23 if, once disclosed, it transpires that Madam Vidovic and Mr. Jones require

24 the return of Mr. Popovic here to be confronted with any new matter/issue

25 that results from this document, then he will have to come back. Am I

Page 2778












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Page 2779

1 making myself clear?

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, you're making yourself perfectly

3 clear.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

5 Yes, Mr. Jones.

6 MR. JONES: May I just say I think Your Honours have been very

7 clear about this being a physical file, an autopsy report --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen it.

9 MR. JONES: No. Indeed, Your Honours. But that's --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you what it is like in my country, but I

11 can't tell you what it is -- I have seen like it. Actually, I have seen

12 like it in other cases, yes. I can tell you what it is like.

13 MR. JONES: I simply emphasise that, because my learned friend

14 keeps referring to information. It's not information we want, it's not

15 summaries, it's not the witness statements referring to the point. It's

16 the physical court report with photographs, autopsy notes --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: It's what we call an inquest in my country.

18 MR. JONES: Exactly, precisely.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour?


21 MS. RICHARDSON: Clearly, it's whatever the Defence has referred

22 to it as the file. I may have misused the word and used "information,"

23 but it's clearly the documents that they were seeking. I was just given a

24 note with respect to the Zvornik report that I believe is what Defence is

25 seeking. It's my understanding that it was requested by us but never

Page 2780

1 received, and we are looking for verification of that.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, we'll continue, and we'll take this matter

3 up -- the matter is not closed, in other words. We'll take the matter up

4 once we have more information from you, and once we are in a better

5 position to make a proper assessment.

6 Any further matters? I see none -- yes, Madam Vidovic, none?

7 Madam Usher, could you please admit the witness. Thank you.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please stand up. Good afternoon to you,

10 Mr. Popovic.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome back. I hope you have had some time to

13 relax after the beginning of the testimony that you gave last Monday.

14 I want to make sure, first and foremost, that you have not

15 maintained any contact with anyone on the matters related to your

16 testimony.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And that no one has approached you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I also want to make you aware that you are still

21 testifying under oath; in other words, in terms of the solemn declaration

22 that you made last Monday that you will be speaking the truth, the whole

23 truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We will now continue with the

Page 2781

1 examination-in-chief, and then you are going to be - hopefully we'll start

2 today - cross-examined by the Defence.

3 Madam Richardson.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examined by Ms. Richardson: [Continued]

7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Popovic.

8 A. Good afternoon.

9 Q. I would like to conclude with your testimony that you began on

10 Monday as indicated by Judge Agius.

11 When we concluded on Monday, you were describing the -- you were

12 testifying about the defence line, and you also stated that there were two

13 villages that had been attacked, and that your mother-in-law and

14 sister-in-law were killed. And I believe these villages were Magasici; is

15 that correct?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't believe --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you receiving interpretation? I think I would

18 still suggest that you repeat your question, Ms. Richardson.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I am, Your Honour. Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I kindly ask you to repeat your question, or

21 if you want I can read it out for you.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, you reading it out is fine.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Popovic, when we left off on Monday, you

24 were testifying about the defence lines; do you remember that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 2782

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And you also stated that there were two villages

2 that had been attacked; do you remember that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And that during these attacks, your mother-in-law

5 and sister-in-law were killed; do you remember that?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you tell us again the names of these two

8 villages? Was one Magasici?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Magasici, yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And what was the other one?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jezestica.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And now I hand him back to you, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 I would ask for the usher's assistance. If you could please show

15 the witness Prosecution Exhibit 455, which is a map that we had been

16 using.

17 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you would like a look at the map, I believe you

18 already circled Jezestica on the map. Is Magasici, the other village that

19 you just mentioned that was attacked, also visible on this map?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And if you could just point to both villages.

22 A. Jezestica. Magasici. [Indicates].

23 Q. Thank you. Now, was it after the attack on these villages that

24 the defence line, the Kravica defence line, was established?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2783

1 Q. And it appears as though Jezestica is also part of the defence

2 line. Could you explain why -- what were the circumstances of Jezestica?

3 In other words, were there people still living in this village, and you

4 found -- and that it was found necessary to establish the defence line

5 along the borders of Jezestica as well?

6 A. Yes. People were still living in Jezestica and the surrounding

7 hamlets.

8 Q. Thank you. No further questions with respect to this map at the

9 moment.

10 Now, I would ask, with respect to the facilities located in

11 Kravica, I believe you may have testified previously on Monday that there

12 was a kitchen; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And could you tell us what this kitchen was used for, and where

15 was this kitchen located?

16 A. The kitchen was in the school. It was used to feed the village.

17 The village, the soldiers, the civilians, whoever wanted to, came and had

18 lunch here.

19 Q. Do you recall when this kitchen in the school was set up?

20 A. When the war began.

21 Q. And do you know where the food that was kept in this kitchen and

22 distributed to the villagers and the soldiers of Kravica, where this food

23 supply came from?

24 A. I don't know where the food came from; I'm not aware of that.

25 There were people who toured the villages, and there were people who had

Page 2784












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 2785

1 large quantities of potatoes or beans, and this was brought to the kitchen

2 so that the population could be fed.

3 Q. And, if you know, was there any person in charge of this kitchen,

4 or more than one, if that was the case?

5 A. Yes. There were cooks working in the kitchen.

6 Q. And do you know if weapons or any type of military equipment was

7 kept in this kitchen or in the school?

8 A. No. No, there was nothing like that in the kitchen where the food

9 was; however, I didn't go into the other rooms, and I don't know what was

10 in the other rooms in these premises.

11 Q. Now, there did come a time that another -- an attack on a village

12 by the name of Glogova took place.

13 A. Yes. That was in December; I don't know the exact date, but it

14 was somewhere between the 20th and the 23rd, around then.

15 Q. And what was the result of this attack? And who attacked Glogova,

16 if you know?

17 A. The Bratunac-Kravica road was cut off as a result.

18 Q. And do you know who was responsible for this attack?

19 A. I know the Muslims from Srebrenica, led by Naser Oric at their

20 head.

21 Q. And how did this attack affect the villages in the immediate

22 vicinity of Kravica?

23 A. Well, it did have an effect because they cut off the

24 Kravica-Bratunac road. And they surrounded us. They surrounded Glogova,

25 Konjevic Polje, Magasici, Jezestica, Srebrenica, so we were totally

Page 2786

1 surrounded.

2 Q. Did this affect the utility, such as electricity, in Kravica?

3 A. Yes. As soon as Glogova was cut off, we no longer had

4 electricity.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could ask the usher's assistance, with the

6 same map to be placed on the ELMO.

7 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you can, when the map is placed on the ELMO,

8 please indicate where Glogova is located on this map.

9 A. [Indicates].

10 Q. Did you find it? Could you circle -- and I should ask, what was

11 the ethnic makeup of this village back in 1992, when it was attacked?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Richardson.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I might as well say it. That village was attacked

15 twice in 1992, at least, so I suppose that you better distinguish between

16 one and the other, or at least be more specific, because the ethnic

17 composition certainly changed after the first one.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I will inquire.

19 Q. Mr. Popovic, how many times, to your knowledge, was Glogova

20 attacked?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: In 1992.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Excuse me.

23 Q. In 1992.

24 A. I can't tell you exactly, but I know about the attack in December,

25 when the Bratunac-Kravica road was cut off. I can't tell you about other

Page 2787

1 attacks. There were attacks, yes.

2 Q. And what -- when was this? Did you just say -- what time of year

3 was this? What month?

4 A. In 1992, in December, between the 20th and the 24th of December,

5 for three days.

6 Q. And at the time of that attack in December of 1992, were there

7 Serbs living in that village?

8 A. No. They were controlling the road above the village. There were

9 no Serbs in Glogova.

10 Q. So in the village itself, was there anyone killed as a result of

11 this attack, in Glogova itself?

12 A. I don't know exactly. I don't recall.

13 Q. All right. Could you show us on the map where the road was cut

14 off leading to Bratunac. And if you could, with a red pen, just - thank

15 you - indicate.

16 A. [Indicates]. [Marks].

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We can't follow on the monitor. All right. Leave

18 it there.

19 Yes, Mr. Jones.

20 MR. JONES: Sorry to interrupt, I'm just trying to follow this

21 witness' evidence, which seems to be that Muslims are attacking Muslims in

22 Glogova. I must admit, I find it thoroughly confusing, if that could

23 be --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Richardson still has to pursue that

25 matter. I wouldn't comment more on it. I think she's still got to pursue

Page 2788

1 it, and if she doesn't, I will.

2 Yes. Again, I could not follow on the monitor from the beginning

3 when he started charting. The question was where the road was cut off

4 leading to Bratunac. Is it where you put the circle around the name

5 Gradac?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from Hranca to Avdagina Njive.

7 But I can't find the names of these places here. This used to be called

8 Gradac before, Tresnija [phoen], Gradac, Njive. That's what it was called

9 before. But the only name I can find now is Gradac.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So for the record, the witness put a circle around

11 the name Gradac which is shown on the map between Agici and Jezestica.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Nothing further on this

13 map.

14 Q. Now when you indicated, when you testified earlier that Glogova --

15 there were no Serbs living in Glogova but it had been attacked, could you

16 explain for the Trial Chamber what you mean by -- exactly what happened,

17 and the significance of Glogova being attacked, if you know.

18 A. Well, you know how it was. Glogova belonged to Bratunac. I don't

19 know much about Glogova. I know that before it used to be Muslim, and

20 that it was cleansed at the beginning of the war. And after that, there

21 was a line above Glogova that was held by Serb soldiers. Above Glogova,

22 up there, there were places where our soldiers were, and in December the

23 Muslims attacked there and cut off the road from Hranca to Avdagina Njive

24 and Graca.

25 Q. When you say where there were Serb soldiers, these Serb soldiers

Page 2789

1 that you were just referring to, were they part of the defence line, or

2 were they Serb soldiers from another area?

3 A. I don't know. That was not the Kravica area. This belonged to

4 Bratunac.

5 Q. And what, if anything, did Kravica do following the Glogova

6 attack, and specifically with respect to the defence line?

7 A. Kravica set up a line as far as Avdagina Njive, Avdagina Njive and

8 then across to Mandici, Magasici, Jezestica, Siljkovici, and all the way

9 around. Siljkovici, Marici, Jezero, the Bacici dam, Munecici [phoen].

10 Q. Thank you. Now I would just like to bring you to the attack on

11 Kravica itself. What do you recall -- do you recall what day that

12 occurred?

13 A. The 7th of January, 1993.

14 Q. And is that day significant?

15 A. Yes. That's the Serb Orthodox Christmas; it's an important feast

16 day.

17 Q. On that day, is there any special festivities or things that

18 someone of Serb ethnicity would be doing on that day?

19 A. Yes. On the eve of Christmas, we slaughter pigs, and then you

20 usually wake up early on the 7th of January, and you have breakfast and

21 you celebrate throughout the day.

22 Q. Now, on that day, do you recall what you were doing when the

23 attack took place?

24 A. On that day, or rather, that night and day, I worked in the

25 bakery. I roasted pigs for the soldiers who were on the front line and

Page 2790

1 for the rest of the village. Whoever wanted some, we roasted pigs for

2 them.

3 Q. And when did you become aware that the village was being attacked?

4 What time was this?

5 A. It was early in the morning, between 6.00 and 6.30, when the first

6 sounds of shooting were heard. In the morning.

7 Q. And do you recall the direction -- where the shooting was coming

8 from?

9 A. The first shots that were heard early - I was in the bakery - it

10 came from Marici.

11 Q. And were you with anyone?

12 A. Yes. There were four of us in the bakery.

13 Q. And who were these four individuals?

14 A. Four of my colleagues. We worked together in the bakery.

15 Q. Was there anything else with respect to the attack that led you to

16 believe that the village was under attack? And specifically, if I have

17 the Court's permission to lead the witness a bit, was there an alarm that

18 was given?

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead, Ms. Richardson.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 A. Yes. When Marici was attacked, when the attack began to spread to

22 Siljkovici and the rest of the defence line, then a siren went off and an

23 alarm was sounded to warn people that the village was under attack.

24 Q. And what was -- and what did most of the villagers do at the time

25 of this alarm?

Page 2791

1 A. At the time of this alarm, when it started, people assembled

2 outside the school building in Kravica. All those who were able went to

3 the defence line to help, because the conflict had already spread to all

4 the villages around Kravica. When Marici fell, in Kravica, around the

5 school building and the bakery, you could no longer walk around freely,

6 because the shooting began and three or four people were killed in Kravica

7 itself.

8 Q. And where were your family members, such as your father, your

9 mother, and your grandfather?

10 A. They were all inside the house.

11 Q. And what did they do once the village was under attack?

12 A. They came in front of the school building. My father went

13 straight to the defence line; my mother was still near the house, until

14 the time came to leave the village.

15 Q. And your grandfather?

16 A. My grandfather was with us in the bakery throughout.

17 Q. And did there come a time that you left the bakery?

18 A. Not until we started to flee. I stayed in the bakery, and then

19 the time came to go and then we were all off to the Drina River.

20 Q. And from the bakery, prior to your leaving, were you able to see

21 what the other villagers were doing, or if there were any wounded persons

22 in the village?

23 A. Yes. In the morning, around 8.00 or half past 8.00, the first

24 victim fell, Milovan Nikolic from Omici. The alarm was sounded and he

25 headed for the defence line at Jezero. When the four or five of them

Page 2792

1 left, I was still outside the bakery. The men had gone, but before an

2 hour elapsed, they brought him back. And by the time they brought his

3 body into the school building, he had already died. The Muslims had got

4 behind the line at Jezero and they ambushed the help that was on its way

5 to Jezero. And that's where they killed him. This is midway between

6 Kravica and Jezero.

7 Q. You also testified that Marici was the first, I believe, village

8 that you said was under attack. Could you see this village from where you

9 were?

10 A. Yes. From the bakery you could see the first house, you could see

11 it from the bakery where I was.

12 Q. And what were you able to see?

13 A. I saw that it began to burn. And when they started firing on

14 Kravica, you couldn't walk about safely. And I know that several people

15 were wounded in the school courtyard, outside the school building.

16 Q. Now, you also mentioned that there came a time that you left the

17 bakery, and this was when you fled Kravica, the town itself. Who left the

18 bakery with you?

19 A. My friends, Krsto Timic, Vaso Gavric, Zoran Eric, and myself left.

20 And once we had set out, some civilians joined us on the way.

21 Q. Did your grandfather also accompany you?

22 A. No. When I left the bakery, I said, Grandpa, come on, let's go,

23 it's time to run. And he said, Where am I supposed to run to? And I

24 said, Let's run to the Drina River. And he said, Listen, grandson,

25 there's no way I can reach the river, I don't stand a chance, I can't get

Page 2793

1 there. If there was a car we could use, perhaps. But the snow was deep

2 and it was impossible to reach the Drina by car. He started crying, and

3 he said, I'm not leaving this place. I'm 82 years old. I never harmed

4 anyone. I pleaded with him, Come on, we'll carry you, we'll get you out

5 of here. And he said, Come on, it would be pointless for me to leave.

6 And then I tried to convince him but he just wouldn't agree, and I had to

7 go.

8 Q. What direction did you flee?

9 A. I fled towards Opravdici.

10 Q. And did you meet anyone else as you were fleeing towards

11 Opravdici?

12 A. You mean civilians?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Yes. By the time we reached Opravdici - this is a hill from which

15 you could see the surrounding villages - Jezestica, Kajici, Siljkovici,

16 Marici; you could see all those villages from there - there were already

17 people there that had assembled in Opravdici.

18 Q. And were there any family members with you?

19 A. Yes. When I left Opravdici and headed for Macinovici, I found my

20 mother who had left before me with their lady friends. They had left as

21 early as 12.00.

22 Q. And where were you when you encountered your mother?

23 A. Midway between Opravdici and Colakovici.

24 Q. Did there come a time that you remained or you passed through the

25 village of Colakovici?

Page 2794

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did anybody --

3 A. Yes, I stayed in Colakovici. When we reached the hill of

4 Colakovici, there were quite a number of civilians there, and we waited

5 until the army started to withdraw and then we all headed for the Drina

6 River.

7 Q. Did you --

8 A. When I was in Opravdici, which is further down from Colakovici,

9 you could see that Jezestica was burning, and Kajici, the asphalt road

10 there, the houses next to the asphalt road in Kravica, Siljkovici, you

11 could see it all quite clearly from Opravdici. The whole thing was

12 burning. Brezak and Mandici. Mandici was beginning to burn too.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: If I could have the usher's assistance with the

14 same map.

15 Q. If you could point on that map, Mr. Popovic, to Opravdici, and

16 tell us if that's the village that you were able to observe the burning

17 that was taking place in Kravica.

18 A. As I said, I saw Jezestica, Kajici, Siljkovici, Marici, Brezak, I

19 saw these villages burning from Opravdici.

20 Q. And you also testified that the attack came from the village of

21 Marici?

22 A. Marici, yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. Yes, I did say that.

25 Q. Thank you. And do you know which other villages after Marici was

Page 2795

1 under attack?

2 A. Marici was the first village to be attacked, near Kravica. The

3 first attack that I heard was in Marici, and from there it spread to

4 Siljkovici, and from Siljkovici to Jezestica, Jezero, the Bacici dam.

5 Q. I hate to interrupt you, but why don't you use the pointer and

6 just point to the villages that were under attack after Marici.

7 A. Marici and then Siljkovici. [Indicates].

8 Q. And which village followed, if you know?

9 A. Jezestica. [Indicates].

10 Q. And then which other village?

11 A. Magasici. [Indicates]. Magasici, Avdagina Njive, Mandici.

12 Q. So the pattern of attack was Marici, then Jezestica; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Marici, Siljkovici, Jezestica, Magasici, Avdagina Njive, Mandici,

15 and then it spread to Sandici, Jezero, the Bacici dam, the lower dam and

16 the upper dam, Banjevici, Bacici. So the whole area was under attack, all

17 these villages that I've pointed out.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. That's all with respect to -- Madam

20 Usher, with respect to this map.

21 Q. Do you know how many people died in the village of Siljkovici?

22 A. In Siljkovici, 13 to 15 people were killed on that day.

23 Q. And was there anything significant that you recall about this

24 village during the attack, anything particular that took place?

25 A. That attack on that day?

Page 2796

1 Q. Yes. These 15 people, were they all related?

2 A. Yes. It was a big family, the Radovic family, that was their last

3 name.

4 Q. And did they do anything in particular with respect to holding off

5 the attack on the other villages, or allowing the villagers --

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may, I'm just leading a bit to

7 get some additional information.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you have any objection, Madam Vidovic or

9 Mr. Jones?

10 MR. JONES: I don't think so on this matter.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so, but I think it's not clear-cut so I

12 wanted your input. Go ahead and lead.

13 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Did the 13 to 15 people that you just testified about who were

15 related, did they do anything significant during the attack?

16 A. Yes. They held off the line. They stayed there until the time

17 came to -- well, they helped Kravica, because Siljkovici is the biggest

18 hill and the nearest one to Kravica. The distance is not even 100 metres,

19 as the crow flies, between Siljkovici and the center of Kravica. That was

20 the fiercest attack, the one up there. And the entire Radovic family were

21 killed.

22 Q. I just have one last question with respect to what you were able

23 to observe when you were in Opravdici. Is Opravdici located on the hill,

24 which is why you were able to see the other villages, including Kravica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2797

1 Q. Now, prior to getting or arriving at the Drina River while you

2 were fleeing, did you encounter Serb soldiers?

3 A. Yes. Yes, we came across Serb soldiers who were on their way to

4 help Kravica. That was on the way down to Drina, between Colakovici and

5 Sopotnik, midway between the forest called Strugovi. There's a village

6 there, and we met about 50 soldiers who were on their way to help Kravica,

7 but it was too late by then. And we told them that it all was in vain

8 because Kravica was ablaze. But they pressed on and came back together

9 with our army when it left Kravica.

10 Q. When you say "army," do you mean the men that were on the defence

11 line?

12 MR. JONES: That's a very leading question. If he could just be

13 asked what he means by "army."

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Rephrase your question, please,

15 Ms. Richardson.


17 Q. When you say "army," who are you referring to?

18 A. I mean the people on the defence line, the people from the village

19 of Kravica, the army that was on its way to help Kravica.

20 Q. Did there come a time that you saw your father again?

21 A. No, I never saw my father again. After he had left to go to the

22 front line, I never saw him again.

23 Q. Did you learn what happened to him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what were you told, and by whom?

Page 2798

1 A. Yes. When I came down to the road, the soldiers had already

2 reached Sopotnik. I asked if anyone had seen my father because I realised

3 that he wasn't there, and they all said, We really can't say. We were all

4 shattered. It was dark by then. It was 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening. A

5 bus came, and we got onto the bus and drove off to Bratunac.

6 The next day when we all came together in Bratunac, a neighbour of

7 mine from Kravica, Mijo Gavric, who was the last person to see my father

8 on the line, came up to me and said that my father had been captured

9 alive. At first I couldn't believe, but he said, Yes, he was, I was with

10 him, he was captured alive, and I managed to escape from Kravica, and I

11 came here this morning. That's what he told me. He told me about how my

12 father was captured.

13 They stormed Kravica, and then they tried to flee Kravica and get

14 to the Drina River. My father ran behind the school. There was a

15 bulldozer that was parked behind the school building. He hid behind one

16 of the big tyres. A Muslim noticed him, however, approached him from the

17 back, and struck him over the head with a rifle butt. My father fell

18 unconscious. And then Mijo Gavric said, I managed to get out but he was

19 stuck there. That's what he told me.

20 Q. Did this person tell you, give you a description of -- I'll

21 rephrase the question.

22 When you say a Muslim noticed him, did this person give you any

23 additional information about this Muslim? Was this a -- how was this

24 person dressed?

25 A. He told me that this person was in a camouflage uniform, the kind

Page 2799

1 that was worn by UNPROFOR at the time, or SFOR, if you like. He had an

2 automatic rifle. He approached him from the back, hit him on the head

3 with a rifle butt, and he fell unconscious.

4 Q. Did there come a time that you were called to -- contacted to

5 identify your father's body?

6 A. Yes. In 1995, in October, when Serbs were found who had been in

7 the Srebrenica prison, I was summoned to take over the body of my father.

8 I arrived. There were quite a number of people there. I reported to the

9 person in charge, and he brought me to see the doctor who had carried out

10 the post-mortem, Dr. Stankovic from Belgrade. I introduced myself as

11 Kostadin Popovic's son, and he said, Well, here is Kostadin's body. It

12 was in a body bag. I asked whether I could see my father's body, and he

13 said, There's no need for you to do it. Just remember him the way it was.

14 And I said that, Well, I would still like to look just to reassure myself

15 that this indeed my father.

16 So he opened the body bag, and I realised immediately that four of

17 his front teeth had been knocked out. He had a gold tooth that was still

18 there. And then he explained everything to me and showed me around. He

19 showed that the skull had been shattered and the chest too. He said, You

20 see that a part of it was broken off. Some of the ribs were fractured, as

21 well as the arms. I said, Doctor, can you please just close the bag, and

22 I started to cry.

23 I picked up the body. A car came by and took the body to Kravica.

24 It was after Christmas when I had found him, together with my grandfather.

25 Q. Did you speak to anyone with respect to your father about where he

Page 2800

1 was following his capture?

2 A. Yes. All of my family and my uncle, we kept visiting the command

3 to ask questions about him. We never received any information whatsoever

4 until our neighbour, Ratko Nikolic, was exchanged, and then we knew

5 exactly that on the 6th of February he had died in prison.

6 At the command for a while they would tell us that he was still

7 alive, and at other times they would tell us that he was dead. We knew

8 nothing for certain until Ratko Nikolic, a neighbour of ours from Kravica,

9 was exchanged.

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time I would like to hand

11 out some documents that I will have the witness take a look at, and if we

12 can have a number assigned.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll have a break -- we're due to have a break in

14 two or three minutes' time, so are you ready to have a break now or can

15 you dispose of this in two or three minutes?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: I think it's best we take the break now.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will have a break, Mr. Siller.

18 We'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

22 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry, Mr. Wubben.

24 MR. WUBBEN: May I address very briefly the request you made, and

25 indeed I can be very short on this. We have no objection to the lifting

Page 2801

1 of the label of confidentiality.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are deciding here and now orally that the

3 confidentiality that was attached to the two documents which have been

4 admitted, which are statements effectively admitted in evidence under

5 Rule 92 bis (C), is being lifted.

6 MR. WUBBEN: In that respect, Your Honour, I would like to tender

7 these two statements. May I have the usher's assistance.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Had the others been given a number already or not?


10 JUDGE AGIUS: So these will be given a number. You need to tell

11 me what the subsequential number is because I don't know.


13 JUDGE AGIUS: 456. So for the record, the statement by Veseljko

14 Bogicevic, dated the 20th of July, 2000, which has just been tendered and

15 which had previously already been admitted as an exhibit under

16 Rule 92 bis (C), is being resubmitted by the Prosecution without the

17 confidentiality that previously attached to the same document, and it is

18 hereby being marked Prosecution Exhibit P456. 456.

19 The same applies to the other document, which is a statement made

20 by Miladin Bogdanovic, a gentleman born on the 21st of October, 1934, in

21 Jezestica, Bratunac municipality, the statement bearing the date of the

22 28th of May of the year 2000. This is being now marked as Prosecution

23 Exhibit P457.

24 Yes, with regard to the rest of the information that you had to

25 verify about the Zvornik inquest papers? Any news?

Page 2802

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, in fact, we do have some partial news. We

2 were able to verify that we did send a request for this file. We are now

3 waiting on confirmation that the files were never given to us by the

4 Bosnian authorities. So what we do have is confirmation that it was a --

5 a request was made. We don't have, and this is an official RFA by the

6 Office of the Prosecution. But what we are waiting for now is their

7 response to us, or lack thereof.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You may proceed with the witness.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How much more time do you think you have?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I anticipate less than an hour. I

12 could possibly finish before. That's a very good possibility.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Vidovic?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Two hours, I think, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move -- try to cut it as short as possible,

16 please.

17 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

18 If I could the usher's assistance, and I don't know if this

19 particular document was already given a number, that was just handed out

20 prior to the break.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think so.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: I would ask --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I will verify with the registrar. I don't think so.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it wasn't, because he had just taken them in his

Page 2803

1 hands when we decided to have the break, so I don't recall even seeing

2 these documents before we left.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: All right. I will, just for the record, state

4 that documents were handed up to the Court. There is a B/C/S and English

5 translation.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because the stapler -- let me verify

7 this, because I had a staple here or a clip which got loose and I may have

8 a confusion. The first ERN page of the original document in Serbo-Croat,

9 is it 0359-3124?

10 MS. RICHARDSON: That is correct, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And does it -- and with 0359-3173?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: That is correct.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I only wish to state

16 that we strenuously challenge the authenticity of this document for

17 reasons which will become clear very soon. But I do not wish to discuss

18 this in front of the witness.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam Vidovic.

20 The English version has ERN number 0 -- it doesn't have an ERN

21 number.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Actually, Your Honour, it should be to the top

23 right --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the ERN -- the first page and the last

25 page -- that's the first page, and the last page of the Bosnian Serb --

Page 2804

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, it's the same ERN number. I did

2 inquire about this before. It evidently was not given an additional ERN

3 number.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but even at first sight, this seems to be

5 thicker than this.

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Well, Your Honour, possibly because of

7 translation and so on.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But it has the same sequence of -- numerical

9 sequence.

10 Anyway, let's move. If there will be a problem, we'll face it.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be P458.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So this document is being received and marked as

14 Prosecution Exhibit P458.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. I would ask that the usher present

16 this document, the original document, the B/C/S version of it, to

17 Mr. Popovic.

18 Q. Mr. Popovic, please take a look at this document. Do you

19 recognise what's in front of you?

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we have an

21 explanation as to what this is about, what sort of diary or log book is

22 this, whose is it --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. No, stop, stop, stop. That's not

24 regular. Don't interrupt again in this manner.

25 Ms. Richardson.

Page 2805

1 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour. Oh, I can continue.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed.

3 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry.

4 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you recognise this document?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when is the first time you saw this document?

7 A. When I was supposed to give a statement about my father.

8 Q. And who gave you this document?

9 A. My uncle, who lives in Milici, Radovan Popovic. And he got it

10 from a next-door neighbour who had a cafe and who knew my late father

11 because they had worked together in Milici. When he read this and saw the

12 name, Popovic Risto Kostadin, he gave this document to my uncle. My uncle

13 had this document, and when we received the summons to testify about my

14 father, I called him up and I said to him, Uncle, and he said he had

15 documents that he got from his next-door neighbour. I asked him where it

16 was, and he said, It's at my home. And that's how I got this document.

17 Q. When did your uncle give it to you? Do you remember the month?

18 A. Two months ago, when I made the statements about my late father

19 and grandfather.

20 Q. And what did you do with the document?

21 Let me just rephrase this question. Are you sure it's two months

22 ago? Because we're now in December. Was it in October or was it before?

23 A. I don't know exactly when it was, but I gave it to the people who

24 were questioning me about my father, and these people were from The Hague

25 Tribunal.

Page 2806

1 Q. All right. If you could turn to --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: When did he first learn about the existence of this

3 document? When was it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was about to be interviewed

5 about my father, that's when I called up my uncle and then he told me.


7 Q. Do you know when your uncle received it from the gentleman that

8 has the cafe?

9 A. He got this document a long time ago. He kept it at his home, but

10 he didn't do anything about it. He just kept it at home and read what it

11 said, and he read the list of names. He got this a long time ago, and it

12 was there at his home, just sitting there.

13 Q. And do you know where he got it, where he obtained this document?

14 A. He got the document from the owner of this cafe. And the cafe

15 owner, he knew my late father; they had worked together in Milici. And he

16 was my uncle's next-door neighbour. He gave it to him to read, and so

17 this document stayed with my uncle, at his home.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richardson, can we have some names, please?


20 Q. Could you -- do you recall the names -- what's your uncle's name?

21 A. Radovan Popovic. He is a building construction engineer, civil

22 engineer, and he works in the Milici municipality.

23 Q. And the person from the cafe who gave it to your uncle, do you

24 know his name?

25 A. I think it was Radan Erkic. Eric or Erkic.

Page 2807

1 Q. Now, for sake of clarification, is this the same -- the owner of

2 the cafe, is this the same person that worked with your father in Milici?

3 A. Yes. In the bauxite mine in Milici.

4 Q. And do you know when, and from where, he obtained this document,

5 if you know?

6 A. People who had a work obligation in Milici, they were working on

7 the electric power line, they were putting up the cables, and they would

8 come into his cafe. They knew about my father because he'd worked there

9 for a long time. They knew he'd been taken prisoner, and they read his

10 name there.

11 Q. Okay. But what we're trying to establish is where the person who

12 first gave it to your uncle, where he received the documents, if you know.

13 If you don't know, just let us know that you do not.

14 A. He got it from those people who were sitting there in his cafe.

15 They read the document and they left it with him in the cafe. And then

16 the cafe owner gave it to my uncle. And it stayed with my uncle until the

17 time came --

18 Q. And do you know the names of the people who gave it to the person

19 who owned the cafe?

20 A. I don't know their names, no.

21 Q. And do you know where they got this document?

22 A. These were all people from Milici, as I said, and they were

23 working on the electric power line, the cables. And they found this

24 document thrown away in a meadow. And they looked at it, they read it,

25 and then they arrived in the cafe owned by my uncle's next-door neighbour.

Page 2808

1 And they knew my late father because he'd worked in the Milici mine for 10

2 years.

3 Q. Did this document end up in the cafe this year, or prior? In 2004

4 or was it prior, if you know?

5 A. No, it was much earlier.

6 Q. Now, you --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Popovic, do you have an idea who could have kept

8 this diary, who kept this diary? Do you have an idea?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a stamp here, and it

10 says "Military Police" and there's a signature here. It's all written

11 down here. There are various stamps and signatures here. Avdo

12 Huseinovic. This is this document. There is a stamp here. It

13 says "Srebrenica Military Police."

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know this person, Avdo Huseinovic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know whether he's still alive or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Q. Is there any reference to your father in this document?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you turn to --

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Just in the interests of time, Your Honour, I

24 would ask the witness to look at page 47, and in the English translation,

25 page 31. Thank you.

Page 2809

1 Q. Now, Mr. Popovic, if you take a look at page 47 of this document,

2 can you tell us if you -- if this is referring to your father, Kostadin

3 Popovic?

4 A. Yes. Popovic, son of Risto, Kostadin, mother's name, Vidosava

5 Milanovici from Opravdici, married to Mila Krsmanovic from Koprivna. Yes.

6 Yes, this is the document -- a document that mentions my father.

7 Q. And is this information about your father; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On that same page there's reference to Ratko Nikolic, and if you

10 would look at that part of the document that indicates --

11 A. Yes, here it is.

12 Q. Now, based on what you know of Mr. Nikolic, is this information

13 correct?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, we can skip that, Ms. Richardson. I think we

15 can assess that on the basis of the testimony of the previous witness, no?

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Popovic, the document also indicated that there's information

18 here that your father was arrested near the school in Kravica on the 7th

19 of January, 1993; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Other than Mr. Nikolic, do you see any other names here on this

22 page or on page 47 that refers to anyone that you know was -- that was

23 imprisoned with your father?

24 A. Yes. Milisava Nikolic. Let me just find it. It's not here.

25 Q. You may want to take a -- it's page 30 on the English document.

Page 2810

1 A. Yes. Yes. Nikolic Milisava.

2 Q. And was this person also imprisoned with your father?

3 A. I don't know whether she was imprisoned together with my father,

4 but she was taken prisoner in Srebrenica.

5 Q. Did you have a conversation - thank you - with Ratko Nikolic about

6 your father?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you?

9 A. He told me that he found him in prison when he arrived there, that

10 he found him in prison and they were in prison together. And then my

11 father asked him, How come you're here, Ratko? And he said, Well, they've

12 caught me too. And then my father asked him, Ratko, have you seen my

13 sisters? And he asked about some other people. And Ratko said, No, I

14 haven't seen anyone. And then Ratko told me - and I omitted to mention

15 this previously - how they had beaten them in prison.

16 MR. JONES: Yes, Your Honour, that's precisely why this witness

17 shouldn't be giving evidence about -- relaying a conversation of someone

18 who was here giving evidence before this Court. Really, in my submission,

19 it would be completely inappropriate for Ratko Nikolic's evidence to be

20 given twice --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: But the other witness was asked whether he had any

22 discussions about this one, and do you remember what he said?

23 MR. JONES: Well, I don't recall offhand, Your Honour. But my

24 concern is that this witness --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: He was asked precisely also in relation to some

Page 2811

1 particular document.

2 MR. JONES: Precisely, Your Honour. But this witness, it's clear,

3 is about to recount Ratko Nikolic's treatment --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no. That's not going to be the case --

5 MR. JONES: -- which we can't cross-examine on.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not going to be the case.

7 Yes, let's proceed, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Popovic, one last question with respect to this document. Are

10 you familiar with the person Hasan Hasic? On page 48 of this document --

11 well, it's page 31 on the B/C/S version --

12 A. No. You mean do I know this person?

13 Q. Yes. Is this person familiar to you?

14 A. No, I don't know this person. I don't know him.

15 Q. All right. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't have any more questions with

17 respect to the documents, and at this time I would ask that this document

18 be tendered.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: It has already been tendered and given a number.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh, thank you.

21 Q. Now, with respect to your grandfather, did you ever see him alive

22 after you left the village of Kravica?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you learn what happened to him?

25 A. I didn't learn anything until Kravica was liberated. That's when

Page 2812

1 we found him.

2 Q. And could you tell us about the circumstances surrounding the

3 location of your grandfather.

4 A. My grandfather was found behind the school, behind the school

5 where coal was kept. Nego Eric was found there, Kristina Eric, his wife.

6 And the fourth person was Obackic; I don't know whether her name was Milja

7 or Ljubica. I found the four of them behind the school.

8 Q. And when you say you found the four of them, you're referring to

9 finding their bodies; correct?

10 A. Yes, their bodies.

11 Q. Could you tell us the ages of the other people -- the other three

12 individuals who were found with your father, if you know? Your

13 grandfather, excuse me.

14 A. They were older than my grandfather. They were about 80 years

15 old.

16 Q. Do you know how many people died in the Kravica attack?

17 A. I do. Forty-seven, 47 were killed on Christmas.

18 Q. And were these men and women?

19 A. Yes. 47 altogether were killed in Kravica on that day.

20 Q. Just going back to your grandfather for a moment, did you examine

21 the bodies, did you take a look at the bodies yourself?

22 A. Yes. Yes. We arrived there, five or six of us; they were family

23 and neighbours of mine. And we took them out of this coal shed, out onto

24 the meadow. And I could see very well that my grandfather's throat had

25 been cut, and that his -- a part of his arm was missing. Nego Eric had

Page 2813

1 something tied round his throat. And as for those two women, I couldn't

2 see anything on them.

3 Q. Were any of these bodies or individuals, were they in military

4 clothing? And could you tell us if the bodies were preserved, the

5 condition -- I'll rephrase that.

6 Could you tell us whether any of the bodies were in military

7 uniform?

8 A. No. My grandfather had mining boots, he had a suit on, he had a

9 white shirt and a pullover, and he had a cap on when he stayed behind in

10 Kravica. And we found everything on him except the cap.

11 Q. And the other bodies, do you recall what they were wearing?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Including your father.


14 Q. Including your father. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 A. Those bodies, Nego and all the others, my father [as interpreted]

16 had olive-drab canvas trousers, and the upper part was an old JNA uniform.

17 But when we found him in Kravica, he was naked to the waist. I forgot to

18 mention that I found a document in his pocket - the doctor found it - and

19 it said on the document "Taken prisoner, the 7th of January in Kravica;

20 died on the 6th of February 1993." We found this in his pocket. And

21 there was nothing on the upper part of his body. I asked the doctor if

22 he'd had anything on him. The doctor said no, he had been naked to the

23 waist, but he did have his trousers on and his belt.

24 All the people who died, none of them were in uniform. People

25 could recognise their relatives by the clothes they had on, because they'd

Page 2814

1 been in Kravica, not buried for almost two months. Animals had already

2 started eating them. So you could recognise them mostly by the clothes

3 they had on.

4 Q. Thank you. With respect to the attack on Kravica, did you speak

5 with anyone and did you get any information about -- I'll rephrase that,

6 Your Honour.

7 Did there come a time that you spoke to a Dodo Peric?

8 A. Yes. I spoke to Djordjo Peric and to Miladin Popovic, people who

9 remained in Kravica that day and arrived on the following day, who had no

10 chance to get out of Kravica. And Djordjo Peric slept the whole night in

11 a shaft that was used for sewage. And he spent the entire night there.

12 Miladin Popovic also stayed at his home. He wasn't able to get out so he

13 hid. And Djordjo told me, when they entered the houses, first they took

14 out food, then they started setting fire to the houses. He had to get out

15 of where he was hiding. And then he told me how they had celebrated, how

16 they had sung a song mentioning Naser Oric and fired shots, and then he

17 managed to get out and -- get out alive.

18 Q. When you say "they," who are you referring to? Did he tell you?

19 A. The Muslims.

20 Q. And did Mr. Peric tell you -- describe the Muslims to you, what

21 they were wearing?

22 A. Yes. He said they all had the same kind of uniform. They had

23 automatic rifles. He watched them set fire to the houses. The house of

24 Drago Radovic specifically, the house of Bozo Radovic, Dragan Radovic,

25 Ljubo Jovanovic, Ceto Vasic.

Page 2815

1 Q. And how long was he able to hide in the town; did he tell you?

2 A. He remained hidden throughout the night of the 7th of January and

3 the whole of the next day. It was only after the army had withdrawn that

4 he came out. Once the army had left Kravica, towards the evening, he left

5 and he came to Bratunac.

6 Q. Now, did you speak with anyone regarding the battle that had taken

7 place or -- excuse me, the attack that had taken place in the forest

8 between Kravica and Jezero?

9 A. Yes. I said a while ago the first victim fell at about 8.00 when

10 the siren was sounded and the people headed for Jezero. They left the

11 bakery and went up for Jezero. They were outside the school building and

12 left for Jezero. After about 45 minutes, they came back with Milovan

13 Nikolic's body. He had been wounded at some point between Kravica and

14 Jezero, and he died outside the school building in Kravica. The Muslims

15 then withdrew behind the line and waited there. He remained in the school

16 building and the school building burned down.

17 After Kravica had been liberated, I personally went to the school

18 building. I found my grandfather there, and he was burned inside the

19 school building.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson, please try to finish within the

21 next 20 minutes.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I'm getting there.

23 Q. Did he tell you, describe to you what the attackers were wearing?

24 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I would like to make the following

25 observation which is that it's not just a question of witnesses giving

Page 2816

1 hearsay evidence where we don't -- and I know that that's not in itself an

2 objection, but when one has --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I was going to intervene and asked -- because

4 Ms. Richardson asked who did you -- did you speak to other people, did

5 they tell you. He never mentions any names.

6 MR. JONES: No. It's not only that, but we have -- it seems to be

7 witness after witness who comes to The Hague and then pulls a rabbit out

8 of a hat and mentions some person who apparently will never be a

9 Prosecution witness, who apparently has all sorts of incredibly useful

10 information. And it's something which is something which is a surprise

11 tactic to the extent that we have never heard of these people before.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But at the end of the day, you report you so

13 well --

14 MR. JONES: Exactly. But if at least to minimise the prejudice,

15 if my learned friend could try and pin down to specifically who said what

16 and when, so we actually have some grasp on what's being purported.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Also, to know whether these persons will be coming

18 over.

19 Who were these persons who gave you all these details about the

20 attack? Who were they? Who did you speak to?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] People from Kravica who brought him

22 over. For example, Zeljko Odovic, I know this man personally. He was

23 there. Zeljko Odovic, Rade Dadic.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Are these persons alive?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they're alive. One lives and

Page 2817

1 works in Russia, and the other is in Bratunac, he works in the school.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Which one is in Bratunac?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zeljko Odovic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyone else you spoke to that gave you all these

5 details, or some of these details?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When they left, when they left for

7 Jezero, when they headed for the defence line. And in about 45 minutes to

8 one hour, they came back with a wounded man. They came outside the school

9 building and took him inside the school in Kravica. He stayed there and

10 he burned down there. When we collected the bodies in Kravica, where my

11 grandfather was buried and the three or four civilians, it wasn't 10

12 metres from there in one of the rooms inside of the school building. We

13 collected all the bones and brought it to the place where all the bodies

14 of the victims had been collected.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.


17 Q. Could you tell us what these individuals whom you just named told

18 you about what had happened in the forest between Kravica and Jezero?

19 I'll rephrase that question. I think you had already told us, but

20 I believe my question was with respect to what these attackers were

21 wearing. Were you told?

22 MR. JONES: And by which individual, please.

23 A. They had white uniforms. They were lying in the snow, and when

24 they came by, they started firing and they shot Milovan Nikolic; they

25 wounded him. A bullet had passed straight through, right here.

Page 2818

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Who told you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those people who brought him over

3 from where he was wounded.


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zeljko Odovic, Rade Dadic, and two

6 other persons whose names escape me now. They brought him to the school

7 building and he died there in front of our very eyes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next question, Ms. Richardson.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour. At this time I'd like to

10 show some photographs to Mr. Popovic of -- I believe some of these

11 photographs were already tendered. We will be using Sanction, although

12 we're handing out hard copies of the photographs.

13 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you take a look at your monitor, just for the

14 record I'd like to read out the ERN number, 01087882, and ask if you

15 recognise this house.

16 MR. JONES: Again, we have the problem of not knowing when these

17 photographs were taken.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, we --

19 A. Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

21 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, these are, in part, pictures that

22 were -- well, I shouldn't say in part. Actually, these are part of the

23 photographs that were taken, as we discussed I think it was last week, in

24 1994 as part of a wider project, and we will have the photographers come

25 in to testify about the date and the time and the exact exercise of taking

Page 2819

1 the photographs.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose the best thing to do, because it's

3 certainly much clearer, is that if you give the witness the photo itself

4 rather than he follows on Sanction.

5 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. If you could take a look at ERN 01087882, I'll ask you if you

7 recognise this photograph, this house.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And look also at the state in which this house is,

9 because at the end I'm also going to ask you some questions on how they

10 ended up like this, whether you know when they ended up like this.

11 Whose house is this?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Golub Grujic's house. This

13 is a man who worked as a merchant for a long time. This photograph was

14 taken long after Christmas, because the new house had not yet been roofed

15 over. The old house -- the new house did not have a roof at all, his

16 house.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And next, 884, 7884?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Savo Savljevic's house.

19 This is between Kravica and Krajici.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7885.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Mika Grujic's house.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7886.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Stanoje Grujic's house.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And where was this house?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house is, when you leave

Page 2820

1 Bratunac, on the right-hand side, between Krajici and Kravica.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7887.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belonged to an elderly

4 couple who had no children, Jovo and Zivana Miladzenovic [phoen].

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7888.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Rajko

7 Milicevic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you first see it in that condition?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 17th of March.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7890.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to a man from

12 Buljim who didn't reside in Kravica. He had left Kravica a long time ago,

13 maybe 10 years before or so. I don't know his first and last name, but I

14 know where the house is. It's plum in the center of Kravica, just next to

15 the asphalt road.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 7892.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the center of Kravica.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I may just correct, it's 891,

20 that last photograph.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The previous one.


23 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't have 891. I have 890 and then 892.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: Oh, I see. That's fine, Your Honour. You can

25 continue.

Page 2821

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So that was -- 892 is the center of Kravica, no?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Next, 895.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is also the center of Kravica,

5 a huge supermarket in Kravica, and to the left of the supermarket you can

6 see Jevko Nikolic's house.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I can just have a moment. I

8 think the witness is looking at Sanction and then photographs are being

9 handed to him, and I think there's a bit of confusion. So if we could

10 just go back two photographs before and establish where he's looking -- I

11 think it's best that the witness use the photographs at this point. I

12 think Sanction is probably confusing things a bit.

13 If the usher could give the witness 891.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: There is no 891, Ms. Richardson.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: 892, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What's that? What's that showing?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It used to be a shop first; next

18 there was the post office, the local authority office, a health centre,

19 then the Elektrodistribucija Company office. And then if you could show

20 the center. So I've listed all these things - the shop, the post office,

21 the local office, the health centre - and then there's another shot

22 showing the cultural ...

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So when you saw this photo before, I heard you say

24 this is the center in Kravica. Is it the center in Kravica? 892 I'm

25 talking about.

Page 2822

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we call this the center of

2 Kravica, because this is where the post office was, the health centre, the

3 shop, the grocery, and the --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 7895, those two buildings.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Zoran Ilic,

6 and then here you can see a house belonging to the Popovic brothers,

7 Cvijetin and Milos. They are my grandfather's relatives. And over here

8 you can see Ceto Vasic's house that I spoke about a while ago.

9 Djordjo ...

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I notice that one of these houses has a damaged

11 roof; the other one doesn't have a roof at all, or at least not one that

12 we can see. The one with the damaged roof, who did it belong to?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milos Popovic and Cvijetin Popovic,

14 my grandfather's closest relatives.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And to the left of it there is that white

16 house with the chimney --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the chimney, that's Zoran

18 Ilic's and Desimir Ilic's house.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 896, please.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Rade Perisic

21 and his brother Vidosav Perisic.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 897.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This large house belongs to a man

24 who used to work in Austria. Mile -- I can't remember his last name.

25 Mile Milanovic, I believe. He and his three sons had been working in

Page 2823

1 Austria for a long time. And then there was a man named Milanovic who was

2 killed and then they had other relatives who moved to Kravica. Radomir

3 Milanovic's family.

4 This is my own meadow or field that you can see, with the corn

5 stalks and the tall grass. That's my field. I have 10 acres all in all.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: We have an idea at all -- I notice that on this

7 photo there seems to be some reconstruction work going on. Would you have

8 an idea at all as to which period this reconstruction work was being

9 carried out? Which year?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reconstruction work was done in

11 1994, 1994.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And if you look at the corn --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies. Some of the houses

14 further down, I helped people out to put up their roofs. The main thing

15 was for the roofs to be constructed so no rain or snow got into the house.

16 None of us were really handymen over there, we were all farmers. There

17 must be more photographs. But people tried to roof their houses over, to

18 build roofs, in 1994, whoever had slabs or tiles to use. This man who had

19 worked in Austria, he paid people who were building the --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I also noticed the corn plants, and you

21 referred to them. What time of the year would you say this photo was

22 taken? When would you expect the corn plants to be of that height in that

23 part of the world?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in July, because the corn

25 had already been worked on. July or August.

Page 2824

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Next, 898.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the Kravica OKA. It was a

3 shed where livestock was kept, cows.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 899.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is also part of the same

6 building.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But I notice that on the -- in the background, on

8 the left-hand side, there is another building. What was that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the same building, and

10 there's another one right behind, next to the creek where the sheds were.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So next is 7901. Whose house is that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a house belonging to the

13 church, where the church was in Kravica.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Which church? Orthodox church?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The church, the Orthodox church, our

16 church, the village church, and the house, the church house where the

17 priest --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see it in that condition?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It's still like

20 this. It hasn't been mended.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you see it in that condition?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time I saw it like this,

23 it might have been about the 18th or the 20th of March, when I went to the

24 graveyard where my grandmother is buried and all of my family. My

25 apologies. And then once we reached the graveyard, we passed by the

Page 2825

1 church. The church had not been set fire to, but everything was torn

2 down, and there was graffiti all over the walls. And then we reached the

3 graveyard, and two or three graves had been dug up. The bodies had been

4 taken out and placed beside the coffin, next to the grave. Then the --

5 the images on the gravestones had been smashed. My grandmother's image,

6 it was pierced by bullets.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's not relevant to this case. 904.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house, it belongs to Cvijetin

9 Dido from Bacici.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: There are three houses there. Let's start with the

11 one on the left with a roof and no -- what seems to be no doors either.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one belongs to Zoran

13 Stevanovic, and right behind there's a creek. And then across the creek

14 you see Zoran Stevanovic's house.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one in the middle?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Cvijetin Dido's house. He's

17 from the Bacici dam. And this other house belongs to his sons-in-law who

18 live in Belgrade or in Novi Sad. It's a cottage that they use once every

19 two or three months.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: 907.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Bozo

22 Milosevic. It's an old house, and a new house next to it.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 908.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one belongs to an elderly

25 couple who had three children. They all worked in Germany. They also had

Page 2826

1 another house in Zvornik, but they didn't stay in Kravica very often.

2 Only when there was a holiday or some sort of a celebration, they'd come

3 over with their kids for a barbecue, but they hardly ever came there. The

4 man's name was Slavko and the wife's name was -- I can't remember her

5 name, because they didn't reside in Kravica.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ever see this house in the condition that's

7 shown on the picture, on the photo?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's still like this.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you first see it like this?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They died and the kids --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: When did you first see it in that condition?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first time, when we came back to

13 Kravica, so that is the 17th, 18th, and 19th of March, and onwards.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 909.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one belongs to Jefto Grujicic.

16 It burned down to the ground. All you can see is the roof tiles. And the

17 next one belongs to Ivo Popovic.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. 910. 910.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This house belongs to Pero Lasic.

20 He owned three houses. You can see them all right here, the new one, the

21 old one, and another one right here, some sort of a shed. Pero Lasic.

22 It's the house next to mine; the distance is less than 30 metres, I think.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: 911.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the school building, the old

25 school. This is the school building. The teachers lived here. This is

Page 2827

1 the courtyard. That's what I told you about a while ago, where my father

2 was captured. You can see the excavator, and you can see the corner of

3 the school building.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And the building on the right without the --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's the school building where the

6 teachers who worked in the school lived.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I just wanted to make sure. I thought so. 914.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the gym.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's move to 918.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my house. This is my old

11 house. The bakery was here. This is my new house. What little roof is

12 there, that's what I did, and my family now stays there. This is where

13 the bakery used to be, and my old house ...

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is he looking at 914 if I said 918?

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, just so I can explain to you what

16 has happened here with some of the photographs. Previously photographs

17 were tendered through another witness, and so what we have done is not

18 provided additional copies of those photographs, so the witness is now

19 looking at photographs, I believe, that were not previously --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's cut it short. Show him 914, please. Usher,

21 is that what he has in front of him? Yes.

22 Could you tell us, whose house is that, please?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my house, the old house

24 where the bakery used to be, and this is the new house next to it.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 918.

Page 2828

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a house in a street that we

2 called Devocukanja [phoen]. This is all from the village of Stuljici.

3 The people who came over and bought up land here, their brothers and

4 closest relatives. There are nine houses in a row here.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. 920.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Neno Bozic's house. He's an

7 old merchant who worked for a long time as a merchant. He now lives in

8 Sabac. He bought a house there. Here I paid for the handyman to do some

9 repairs.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 921.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Djordjo Milosevic's house,

12 and the next one is Pavo Nikolic's house, and the other one is Golub

13 Kojic's house. He is now in Germany.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the left and go to the right. The

15 one on the left, next to the electricity pole, whose house was that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Golub Kojic's house. He lives in

17 Germany with his family.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And the next one in the middle?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djordjo Milosevic's house.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: And the one to the right?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pavle Jankovic's house.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, 922, please. Whose house is that?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This roofless house belongs to Milo

24 Milic. This other one belongs to Zdravko Milanovic, and the next house

25 belongs to his brother, Jovan Milanovic. And the one you can see right

Page 2829

1 here belongs to a close relative of his, Vitomir Milanovic, who was

2 killed.


4 MS. RICHARDSON: I'm sorry to interrupt. Just before we

5 complete - and I know we're running short on time - there are two

6 additional photos that the witness did not have a chance to identify and

7 they were previously tendered to the Court, so if I could just give the

8 usher these two photographs for him to identify. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Put them on the ELMO, please, so that we know

10 what we're talking about.

11 Do you have the exhibit number, Ms. Richardson, of this document?

12 MS. RICHARDSON: It's actually on the ELMO. It's P400, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: P400, you are being told.

15 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Witness, do you recognise that house or those

17 buildings over there? Whose house was that?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that was Pero Nikolic's

19 house, right across the road from my old house where the bakery was.

20 There were two shops here from the '60s, two big shops.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next one, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the center of Kravica that I

23 talked about; the community centre, the post office, the local office, the

24 shop, the health centre, then the electrical supply ...

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. For the record, the witness is being shown

Page 2830

1 the photo with the ERN ending in 7891. Do you know the exhibit number of

2 this document, Ms. Richardson?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe it is P400. P400, Your

4 Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: P400, yes.


7 JUDGE AGIUS: I have two very short questions.

8 You've seen a lot of houses, a lot of photos depicting a lot of

9 houses. When you returned to Kravica after the attack, did you see all

10 these houses on that occasion or not?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did, all of them.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And were they all in the condition in which they

13 appear on this photo?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even worse. There are houses here

15 that have been roofed over, so this is not a picture taken between

16 the 17th and 20th of March, when we arrived in our village.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Was there any of these houses, on the 17th or 20th

18 of March, which were not damaged at all, or which were much less damaged

19 than what appears on these photos?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We found the houses in a state worse

21 than the state in the photographs, because some houses have been roofed

22 over since then.


24 Ms. Richardson, please, the witness is yours.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 2831

1 Q. Now, with respect to compensation, did you receive, or anyone else

2 that you know of in the village of Kravica receive any compensation from

3 the Bosnian Muslim army for damage?

4 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, I have to restate my objection to that

5 question. There's no such thing as the Bosnian Muslim army, and we'll

6 never hear of it anywhere or see a document mentioning the Bosnian Muslim

7 army. If the Prosecution wants to deny that there was a Republic of

8 Bosnia --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I have to sustain the objection. Could you

10 rephrase your question.

11 MS. RICHARDSON: I will, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And by the way, these photos are being given which

13 number, Mr. Registrar? P458?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be P459.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: 459. This set of photos is P459.

16 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

17 MR. JONES: Your Honour, the Prosecution simply needs to ask, Have

18 you received any compensation. They don't need to add any tag.

19 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe that it's the

20 Prosecution's contention that the damage from the attack was caused by

21 Bosnian Muslim forces, and I can simply ask if he was compensated by any

22 Muslim forces of any kind.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Just ask him whether he has been compensated, and if

24 he has been, he will need to tell us who compensated him.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: We can take that route, Your Honour.

Page 2832

1 Q. Were you ever compensated for the loss to your home, Mr. Popovic?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Either the loss of your home or any damage sustained

3 on the occasion of the attack.

4 A. No, I have received nothing. My house and the four outbuildings,

5 my barn with three cows and two calves, about 20 pigs, 15 sheep, a small

6 tractor with various equipment for mowing, plowing, and so on, the things

7 in my house, everything that a household needs, we had. I never received

8 anything. After '94/'95 --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That will be enough. So you haven't even

10 receive anything from Republika Srpska?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand anything.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I will repeat my question. So basically what you're

13 telling us is that you didn't even receive anything from Republika Srpska?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I never received any kind of

15 compensation from anyone.


17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please. Please may

18 I? I haven't finished. An organisation turned up, they were Hungarians,

19 and they were helping about the houses in Kravica. And I received a

20 little bit of building material. It was some gravel which was cheap in

21 our parts. And I received that from a foreign country, from Hungarians

22 who were there helping people.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

24 Ms. Richardson, any further questions?

25 MS. RICHARDSON: Yes, Your Honour.

Page 2833

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Please proceed.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: I am proceeding.

3 Q. Now, did there come a time that you saw the village of Kravica

4 after the attack on television or on video?

5 A. Yes. Somebody brought a videotape to our village, and this was

6 taken by the Muslims. The tape showed Naser Oric with a horse in front of

7 the community centre. He was riding a horse, and there were soldiers

8 around him. And then they showed in Srebrenica how they were engaging in

9 sports --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, stop. Do you have this tape?

11 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I am leading into a photograph that

12 is, I think, very similar to what is being described.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: But a tape is a tape and a photo is a photo.

14 MS. RICHARDSON: We are looking into getting this video, Your

15 Honour, which is why I'm also leading this evidence.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go ahead.

17 MR. JONES: Excuse me, until the Prosecution obtains the video,

18 they should surely stick to the photograph.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But at least they can give us a description of this

20 video. Let him give us a description of this video so that when we get

21 it, if we get it, we'll be able to mix and match.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: That was my intent, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You saw this video yourself?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw it myself, in my house. My

25 mother wept. Somebody brought this to the village. It went from house to

Page 2834

1 house.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you keep a copy of it, or did you make a copy of

3 it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't. I didn't think I'd

5 ever need it.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know of anyone who can provide us with a copy

7 of it?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't make any promises

9 now. It was a long time ago. When people were returning to Kravica, we

10 watched this. So I can't promise you anything for sure.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Popovic, you mentioned that Naser Oric was on a horse. How do

14 you know that was Naser Oric?

15 A. Do you know how? I knew Naser a little bit before the war, when

16 he would come to Kravica with his Renault to see Paco Vlasic, who was a

17 car mechanic. And when he talked to him, this car mechanic afterwards

18 would say, That's Naser who used to work in Belgrade in the SUP, and now

19 he's been transferred to Srebrenica. We had no idea. This was before the

20 war, a short time before the war. He would come to Kravica with his

21 Renault.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, at this time --

23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: -- I'd like to hand up this photograph, copies of

25 the photograph that will be shown to the witness. For the record, it's

Page 2835

1 ERN 03592926, and I'd ask that a number be assigned.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: What's the source of this document, Ms. Richardson?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, this document was provided to the

4 Office of the Prosecution, by the RS Banja Luka to one of our

5 investigators. We also received it from the Bureau of Cooperation, the

6 RS Bureau of Cooperation as well. And this was provided to our

7 investigators. So there are two sources. And I would like to add an

8 additional source, which is the fact that this photograph is in the public

9 domain, and that it was also retrieved, the same photograph, from an

10 Internet source, an encyclopedia Internet source, and I can have copies of

11 that source handed out to the Court as well as the Defence.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, your question, please.


14 Q. Please, Mr. Popovic, have a look at this photograph. And we are

15 also showing the photograph on Sanction. And we will just ask you if you

16 recognise where this photograph -- if you've seen this photograph before.

17 A. No. I didn't see -- in front of the community centre in Kravica,

18 this videotape I talked about, where these people are, that's where that

19 video was taken from, in the middle of the asphalt. You could see Naser

20 on a horse, and the soldiers all around him, just like you see here.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I see no horse there.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I can, Sanction, we will sort

23 of --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.

25 MS. RICHARDSON: -- get a closer shot.

Page 2836

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I see a horse.

2 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you. And we can put the photograph back to

3 the original size for the moment.

4 Q. Do you recognise anyone in the picture? Let's have it blown up

5 again. Thank you.

6 MR. JONES: I wonder if Sanction can also make the horse white.

7 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours, that is an inappropriate comment

8 from the Defence.

9 Q. Now, do you recognise anyone in the photograph, Mr. Popovic?

10 A. The picture on the videotape was just like this one. Naser was on

11 a horse, only it was taken by a video camera from where they are, and he

12 was on the asphalt. And as I just explained, above the asphalt there's a

13 house. This man lives in Serbia. I don't remember him ever actually

14 living in that house. So there's an asphalt surface there, and then

15 there's a hill, and then there's the house on that hill. And it was taken

16 from in front of the community centre, here where we see them now.

17 Q. Now, look at the faces in the photograph, and could you tell us if

18 you recognise anyone in that photo.

19 A. No, I don't recognise anyone. This picture is blurred. You can't

20 see very well. But I do know that on the videotape, I saw this very

21 clearly, as if it was live. But here, I can't recognise anyone here

22 because it is blurred. But it was just like this, with Naser on a horse.

23 Q. Would you --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a moment. I want to make sure what he was

25 looking at. Were you looking at the photo on the piece of paper or on the

Page 2837

1 monitor?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the video cassette in my house.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: That wasn't the question.

4 Conclude on this, please.


6 Q. Please look at the photograph on the ELMO and tell me if you can

7 identify anyone in the photograph. Don't look at the screen in front of

8 you, on the ELMO. The hard copy. Thank you.

9 A. Here I recognise Naser on the horse, because that's how I saw it

10 on the videotape. On the videotape, you could see it much more clearly,

11 you could see it very well.

12 Q. Now, looking at this photograph, is this the person that you

13 recognise from previously visiting Kravica? The person on the horse.

14 A. Well, this man here, he has a beard. But when he used to come to

15 Kravica, he didn't have a beard. Also, this picture is not very clear, so

16 I cannot see the picture very well.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. He didn't look like this with a beard when he visited Kravica with

19 his Renault.

20 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, if I could just have the Court's

21 indulgence for one moment. If we could go back at that Sanction and again

22 just go to the person on the horse, see if we can enlarge it and if that

23 assists the witness any further. If it doesn't, fine.

24 Q. Now, please look at the video -- the screen and tell us if this

25 will assist you any further in recognising the person.

Page 2838

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The more you zoom, the more blurred it becomes.

2 A. Yes. Yes. This person on the horse is Naser Oric, and you can

3 see the same on the video cassette, except there he's on the asphalt, not

4 here in the center of Kravica. But on the video cassette, you can see him

5 five metres away from this spot, just like this, sitting on a horse. And

6 it was shot with a video cassette from the position where these soldiers

7 are now, and in the background you can see the hill and the house on the

8 top of the hill and the asphalt area that I just described.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 460.


11 Q. Can you tell from the photograph - thank you, Your Honour - what

12 time of year this photograph was taken? Can you tell the weather

13 conditions, if there's snow on the ground or not?

14 A. This was in those days when Kravica was taken. On the 7th of

15 January, there was a lot of snow, and you can see snow here. So it was

16 from the 7th of January onwards. There was a lot of snow then.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovic.

18 MS. RICHARDSON: I have no further questions with respect to the

19 photograph, and I thank the usher --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it you have no further questions about

21 anything else.

22 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I have two questions --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's conclude, Ms. Richardson.

24 MS. RICHARDSON: -- and I'll conclude.

25 Q. Mr. Popovic, are you a member of the SDS? And can you tell us if

Page 2839

1 you are active in the SDS?

2 A. No, I'm not a member of the SDS.

3 Q. Now, the only other question --

4 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I don't have any further questions.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you a member of the SDS in 1991 and 1992?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: You're welcome, Your Honour. Thank you.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 Yes, Madam Vidovic, let's start, and then we'll see where we get.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I will start with a set

12 of questions.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Popovic. Please, after I

15 finish my question, make a brief pause because time is needed for the

16 interpreters so that everybody can hear us. Did you understand what I

17 said?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you have a nickname?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. Is it Cojka?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What is it?

24 A. Cojo.

25 Q. So your nickname is Cojo.

Page 2840

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well, thank you. Mr. Popovic, are you aware that on Tuesday,

3 Mr. Ratko Nikolic said to the Trial Chamber --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, we don't do it this way. You don't tell him

5 what another witness said.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I apologise, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: But now you have said it.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Did you give to any witness any documents pertaining to the Naser

11 Oric case?

12 A. No. You mean that I showed this to someone?

13 Q. No. I mean did you at any time give any documents connected with

14 the Naser Oric case to any of the witnesses appearing before this

15 Tribunal?

16 A. No, I never showed them any documents. I only asked Ratko -- when

17 we met, he was passing through Kravica on a horse with a forwarding agent,

18 and so he stopped and we had a chat, and I said, Ratko, when were you

19 taken prisoner in Kravica. And he said on the 12th, on the 12th, at home.

20 And then I said, No, Ratko, you weren't captured on the 12th, it was on

21 the 9th. After that I never saw Ratko or talked to him again.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's clear this up.

23 Did you ever -- did you ever give Ratko any documents, or did you

24 ever show him any documents?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never, never. I never showed

Page 2841

1 him anything.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Neither did you give him any documents?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Go on -- go ahead, please.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Popovic, do you know Ratko Nikolic well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is he a person who can be trusted, in your opinion?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection --

10 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection -- don't answer it. Objection sustained.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, please, when answering my question just a minute ago in

14 connection with this gentleman, when I asked you about your conversation,

15 you said, He told me he had been arrested on the 12th and I told him on

16 the 9th. Why were you suggesting anything at all to Mr. Nikolic?

17 A. Well, because Ratko can't be trusted about dates. I don't know

18 personally when he was arrested. I don't know. I didn't give him any

19 documents. We met only about three times after.

20 Q. But why did you say that you can't trust Ratko just now?

21 JUDGE AGIUS: He did not say that you can't trust Ratko; he said

22 that you can't trust Ratko with dates.

23 MS. RICHARDSON: Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And I hope that "dates" means day, month, and year,

25 and not other dates.

Page 2842

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Why did you suggest anything to Ratko?

3 A. Well, what did I tell Ratko? I didn't say anything, I didn't give

4 Ratko any documents. What did I give him?

5 Q. Why did you suggest anything to Ratko about his arrest?

6 A. You mean I shouldn't have talked to Ratko at all?

7 Q. Witness, please. Yes, it was all right for you to talk to him,

8 but why did you suggest to him anything about facts in connection with the

9 Naser Oric case, having to do with his arrest, the arrest of Mr. Nikolic,

10 that is?

11 A. I really don't know.

12 Q. Why did you suggest to him that it was the 9th and not the 12th?

13 A. What did I ...

14 Q. Well, you just said that you suggested to him that he had not been

15 arrested on the 12th but rather on the 9th. Why did you suggest this to

16 him? Is there any reason why you mentioned that this was the 9th?

17 A. Well, he was talking in Kravica that he had been arrested on the

18 17th of January, the 9th, the 12th. He was lost as far as dates was

19 concerned.

20 Q. Well, how did you know when he was arrested?

21 A. I have no idea when he was arrested.

22 Q. Were you present at his arrest?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why, then, did you suggest to Nikolic that he had been arrested on

25 another day and not the day when he said he had been arrested? Isn't it

Page 2843

1 correct, in fact, that you are trying to interfere in the process of

2 international justice, that you are trying to influence others?

3 A. Why would I influence other people? Why would I do that? How

4 could I influence them?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. It's correct that you didn't give him those documents, isn't it?

8 A. Yes. I didn't give any document to Ratko Nikolic.

9 Q. So it would not be true to say that you gave him documents.

10 A. I didn't give Ratko any kind of document.

11 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'll move on now.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know if I

13 should move on to my next set of questions, because I'm very short of

14 time, or -- I feel this is a very important issue. I don't know whether

15 the Chamber wishes to put questions about this.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: About what he's just stated?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: We're happy with what he said. This is an

19 adversarial system.

20 We'll have a break of 25 minutes.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, this would be a convenient

22 time. Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And then we'll restart in 25 minutes, and then you

24 choose when you prefer to stop, Ms. Vidovic, and we will obviously

25 continue tomorrow because this is an important witness, all right?

Page 2844

1 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: So let's proceed, please, Madam Vidovic.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Popovic, did I understand you correctly when you said you were

6 not a member of the SDS?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. The truth of the matter is, you were a member of the SDS from the

9 26th of August, 1990, weren't you?

10 A. 1990?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No.

13 Q. So that's not correct, is it?

14 A. No.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I please have the usher's

16 assistance now. I would like to place the following document on the ELMO:

17 It's a Bratunac military post document, dated the 6th of April, 1995.

18 This is a certificate.

19 Q. Mr. Popovic, if you could please have a look. This document is a

20 certificate of the Bratunac military post, certifying as follows:

21 "Nikola Popovic has been in our unit from 18 April 1992 until 23

22 September 1992 and from 25 May 1993 until the present day and onwards."

23 This certificate is issued at the personal request to regulate

24 accommodation issues. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2845

1 Q. In relation to that I would like to ask you a question: Is it

2 true that you were mobilised on the 18th of April, 1992, and that you

3 remained with the army of Republika Srpska until the end of the war?

4 A. Which date did you refer to, the 18th?

5 Q. Can you look at the document, please. Is it true that on the 18th

6 of April, 1992, you were mobilised?

7 A. I don't know. I can't be sure. I don't know.

8 Q. Fair enough.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Eser, please.

11 JUDGE ESER: I just have a question for clarification. You asked

12 the witness whether he was a member of the SDS, and he gave an answer no,

13 and then you continued by presenting this document. Now, is this document

14 related to the question with regard to the membership in the SDS, or is

15 there a different issue?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, after that I said "very

17 well, thank you." I'm not sure if it's been interpreted or not. And then

18 I moved on to a different topic and asked this question about his being

19 mobilised. Maybe you did not receive this particular bit of

20 interpretation.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something in connection

22 with the SDS after you've given me this?

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. This is not in relation to the SDS. I asked you a different

25 question. We'll go back to the SDS in a while. Can you please just

Page 2846

1 answer my questions. We will come back to the SDS.

2 I asked you about the certificate, about you being mobilised, and

3 I asked you when exactly. You say you didn't remember; is that right?

4 A. When I was in the army, I don't know. It was in April or May

5 1992.

6 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. That is a satisfactory answer.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I just wanted to verify this, Your

8 Honour. Has this document already been assigned a number as a Defence

9 exhibit?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I don't think so. I've never seen it before.

11 We had similar ones, but not this one.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Therefore, I move that this

13 document be assigned a number as an exhibit.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document is being tendered, received, and

15 marked as Defence Exhibit D122? 122.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. A while ago you mentioned the bakery. When asked by the

18 Prosecutor on Tuesday, you said, "I worked as a baker. When the war

19 began, the bakery was built of wood and it catered to the entire village.

20 We baked bread there, and all the locals came to the bakery for their

21 bread. It catered for the entire village of Kravica."

22 Mr. Nikolic, is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Mr. Popovic.

25 A. Yes.

Page 2847

1 Q. Was this a civilian bakery?

2 A. It was a village bakery.

3 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. In your testimony, you referred to a

4 person named Andrija Jerkovic. Where is this person from?

5 A. Jerkovici. Jerkovici, which belongs to the Bacici. Brana

6 Bacici. But the hamlet is called Jerkovici.

7 Q. So it's part of Brana Bacici?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You said that in your area, around Kravica, tensions began to rise

10 when Andrija Jerkovic was wounded in May 1992, and around mid-May Stojan

11 Popovic was killed; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In answer to a question by the Honourable Judge today in relation

14 to Glogova - that's page 24 of the LiveNote, line 1 - your answer was as

15 follows:

16 "I know that before the war Glogova was a Muslim village, but it

17 was cleansed at the beginning of the war."

18 Can you please explain to the Chamber what this means,"cleansed"?

19 What exactly happened there?

20 A. I don't know what happened there. Glogova was not part of

21 Kravica. It's closer to Bratunac. I know nothing about that, about what

22 happened at the time.

23 Q. But you did say today, didn't you, that Glogova was cleansed.

24 What exactly did you mean by that expression, "cleansed"?

25 A. That there were no Muslims. That it was cleansed, so that the

Page 2848

1 Muslims had left Glogova. Go ahead, please.

2 Q. When someone leaves, is "cleansing" the proper expression to use

3 for these cases?

4 A. I'm not sure exactly how it should be used. I'm not ...

5 Q. Why did you say that Glogova was cleansed, then?

6 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honour, I believe the witness has already

7 answered the question.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No, he hasn't. By no means, Ms. Richardson.


10 JUDGE AGIUS: By no means.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Please, Witness, can you tell us, how far is Glogova from Kravica?

13 A. From Kravica?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. About eight kilometres.

16 Q. And what is the distance between Brana Bacici and Kravica?

17 A. About seven or eight kilometres.

18 Q. You know exactly, don't you, what happened to Andrija Jerkovic.

19 Does it not seem logical that you should know what happened in Glogova?

20 A. That's because Andrija Jerkovic was wounded in the area of

21 Kravica. It's a hamlet which is part of Kravica, and Glogova isn't.

22 Glogova belonged to Bratunac.

23 Q. Can you please tell me what the distance is between Hranca and

24 Kravica?

25 A. Which Hranca? There is Gornja Hranca and Donja Hranca.

Page 2849

1 Q. Both.

2 A. Ten kilometres.

3 Q. So that's in your neighbourhood, isn't it?

4 A. What do you mean by "neighbourhood"?

5 Q. The area in which you live.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Witness, did you by any chance hear that in Hranca, Glogova, Suha,

8 Borkovac, Voljevica, Magasici, Mihajlovici, hundreds if not actually

9 thousands of Muslims were killed at the time, at the same time that this

10 person named Jerkovic was wounded?

11 A. No, I never heard such thing.

12 Q. Never, and that's your testimony.

13 A. No, I never heard any such thing.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now if I can have the usher's

16 assistance, please, I would like to place on the ELMO Defence

17 Exhibit D7 -- oh, yes, D7, it's already there. This is a document that

18 I've already elucidated on. It's an extract from the financial records.

19 This is a list of staff members and logistics for the Kravica Territorial

20 Defence.

21 Q. Can you please look at this document, Witness. Your name, if

22 indeed it is your name, is under number 17. It says "Nikola Popovic,"

23 doesn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that your name?

Page 2850

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Therefore, you were a member of the logistics unit of the Kravica

3 staff; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, I was a logistics person. Here you can see my name and this

5 friend of mine who worked with me.

6 Q. Can you tell us exactly what you did between the 18th of April,

7 1992 and January 1993? What was your job with the staff?

8 A. I worked as a baker.

9 Q. With the staff?

10 A. Yes, baker. A baker, a Kravica local baker.

11 Q. So if that was a civilian bakery, as you explained a while ago,

12 what would be the connection between that and the staff?

13 A. I said that the bakery catered for the entire village, bread for

14 the entire village.

15 Q. Fair enough. Thank you. Can you please look at the document. If

16 you could turn to the next page, it reads "Donji Bacici." Can you just go

17 through the document briefly. You see here it reads "Artillery," and then

18 there's a list of military conscripts for the village of Mandici on the

19 next page. If you could just have a look briefly, first of all. The

20 document has several pages, then Brezanci, Dolovi, then you have

21 Siljkovici, Marici, Ceta Kravica, the Jezero position, Ocenovici, Banici,

22 Popovici, Brana, and then you have a list of military conscripts for the

23 village of Opravdici, Jezestica 2, Jezestica 1, the village of Magasici,

24 Kajici.

25 Yesterday you marked a map during your testimony. If you could

Page 2851

1 have a look, please. I'm only talking about the place names here,

2 indicated here.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You made markings on a map here yesterday.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it not true that you marked exactly the villages that I have

7 referred to now? Aren't these all Serb villages?

8 A. Yes.

9 MS. RICHARDSON: Your Honours, I hate to interrupt, but just for

10 the record, it wasn't yesterday but Monday. Thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Richardson.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. My

13 apologies. Tuesday, as a matter of fact. Tuesday.

14 Q. Mr. Popovic, I'm not confused just because you're looking at me.

15 Can you please answer the following question: Is it not true that these

16 villages had their own military units? If you could look at this list in

17 relation to Donji Bacici, for example, or Siljkovici, for that matter, if

18 you could have a look. Can you find Siljkovici on the list, please.

19 A. Just a minute, please.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you refer him straight to the page, Madam

21 Vidovic, instead of --

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I will give the reference. If you could look at page 0132-0329,

24 the block letters.

25 A. Yes, I've found it.

Page 2852

1 Q. If I could draw your attention to Siljkovici specifically.

2 Because you mentioned Siljkovici today, didn't you?

3 A. Yes, but can I just read the names out, please.

4 Q. Yes, go ahead, please. I can read them out to you out aloud for

5 the benefit of the transcript: Peric Radoljub, Krsmanovic Dusan -- and

6 you try to follow -- Stevanovic Milan, Savljevic Brano, Radovic Milovan,

7 Perisic Obren, Djokic Stanoje --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you are expecting too much. Please

9 slow down. How far did you get?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Obren Perisic, Stanoje Djokic,

11 Gojko Grujic, Stanko Grujic, Ratko Peric, and especially I'd like to draw

12 your attention to the names of the Radovic family, who you spoke about

13 today.

14 A. The Radovic family, yes.

15 Q. The persons that you referred to, Radovic Sveto, Radovic Bozo,

16 Radovic Novak, Radovic Zeljko?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Vaskrsija Radovic?

19 A. Vaskrsija, yes.

20 Q. Radovic Radojko?

21 A. Yes, Radovic Radojko.

22 Q. Radovic Slobodan? Radovic Milorad?

23 A. Well, yes, it is the list I'm talking about.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues]... continue like

25 this I'm going to stop the sitting.

Page 2853

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Am I allowed to say something in

2 relation to this list?

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can you just pause for a minute and

4 I'll ask you a question, please.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: You will answer questions. You will not make

6 statements.

7 And Madam Vidovic, please, again for the third, fourth time,

8 please slow down.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: We haven't even -- it was going too fast even for me

10 to follow. She didn't mention all the names, she mentioned some of them.

11 And you had arrived at putting the question. You said that the persons

12 you referred to, Radovic --

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Radovic Milovan, Radovic --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And then it's --

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] From the Radovic family.

16 Q. Witness, please, are these the persons that you referred to today

17 in your testimony?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it not true that these persons were soldiers?

20 A. Those were persons from Kravica who defended their village when it

21 was attacked.

22 Q. Were these people who were members of the Siljkovici military

23 unit?

24 A. Yes, the Siljkovici military unit.

25 Q. So they were defending their village, that's who these people

Page 2854

1 were.

2 A. Well, if I may be allowed to finish answering.

3 Q. Can you please just answer my questions.

4 A. Well, half of these people did not take part in the war, the

5 people that I know of, those people had left. This is a list of people

6 from Siljkovici, but not people who were actually in positions in

7 Siljkovici.

8 Q. Witness, I asked you something in relation to specific members of

9 the Radovic family which you referred to today, and your answer was what

10 it was.

11 Now can you please tell me, which of these people left?

12 A. There are people who left, there are people who were aged over

13 60. I'll tell you now which specific people.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Please now, may I, for the last time, appeal to you

15 not to cross over while one is still talking; and secondly, to allow for a

16 good pause, a reasonable pause between question and answer. If you do not

17 do this, I'm going to stop the sitting.

18 Judge Eser would like to put a question.

19 JUDGE ESER: Just for reason of clarification, because I'm not

20 sure whether the translation is -- all of it is consistent. So if you

21 speak of -- if you've got military units, is it meant in terms of the

22 army; and if so, what army? Is it meant in terms of Territorial Defence?

23 Or is it meant in terms of village guard? What means "military unit"?

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked the witness a

25 question, was this a military unit, was it a village guard, and he's the

Page 2855

1 one who should answer my question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a village guard, people who

3 defended their village.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Do you call it a village guard? Was it a village guard of the

6 army of Republika Srpska?

7 A. I don't know who it belonged to. I know that it was a village

8 guard.

9 Q. Yes, but a Serb village guard, wasn't it?

10 A. Well, Serb, what else? Those people were Serbs, not Muslims.

11 They all have Serb first and last names.

12 Q. Thank you, Witness. A while ago --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, you yourself are not allowing a

14 pause.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour, but I

16 always have very little time left for my cross-examination; therefore, I'm

17 trying to squeeze as many questions as possible into the time.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't said anything about your cross-examination

19 time. I haven't said anything. You will finish your cross-examination

20 when you finish. But at 7.00 in the evening, I have an absolute duty to

21 protect the staff here who has been behind windows and small cubicles

22 interpreting and translating. It's not an easy life at all for them.

23 It's not for us, but for us it's even worse.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour.

25 Q. Witness, can I re-ask this question, please: In answer to the

Page 2856

1 questions by the OTP today, the persons you referred to as being members

2 of the village guard or village defence, you spoke of them as soldiers,

3 didn't you?

4 A. What I said was that it was a village guard and a defence line.

5 Therefore, you couldn't have a woman going there, for example. It could

6 only have been a man, a soldier, defending the village.

7 Q. Fair enough. I'll ask you a different question now.

8 MR. JONES: A very small matter, Your Honour, but I've noticed

9 that "dobro" gets translated as "fair enough," and it's simply that "fair

10 enough" implies that we've accepted that as a fair answer. "Dobro" in

11 this context, it would be better as "okay" or something like that.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I know it. Okay, point taken, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. It's correct, is it not, Witness, that the hamlets belonging to

16 Kravica that you marked on the map yesterday, that from the very beginning

17 of the war, these hamlets had their own village guards, as you called

18 them, didn't they?

19 A. The village guards were in the center of Kravica.

20 Q. These villages, did they have village guards too? Is that your

21 testimony?

22 A. I don't know about those villages. I know about Kravica and the

23 center of Kravica, what was there. I don't know about Buljim. That's 15

24 or 10 kilometres from Kravica. I have no idea whether they had a village

25 guard too. I know about Kravica, where the post office used to be.

Page 2857

1 Q. Witness, you remember that you gave a statement to the OTP in July

2 2004; do you remember that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You spoke then about between 250 and 300 fighters, as you referred

5 to them, who were in Kravica, which, as you then said, included the

6 quartermasters' staff. That means between 250 and 300 fighters were in

7 Kravica itself, weren't they? Isn't that correct?

8 A. No. Not in Kravica itself, the villages, because up until the

9 beginning of the war, Christmas 1993, many people had been killed and many

10 people had left and many people had been wounded.

11 Q. Witness, but you just said a moment ago that you had no idea what

12 happened in those villages, how many soldiers they had.

13 A. I know when a man from Bacici was killed. I hear that these

14 people were killed or wounded or that they left. How on earth should I

15 know whether they had a village guard or not in their own village?

16 Q. Well, my question to you is: When you said that Kravica had

17 between 250 and 300 fighters, what exactly did you have in mind?

18 A. Able-bodied men, at Christmas, to defend the village.

19 Q. So you referred to Kravica itself and not to the surrounding

20 hamlets, didn't you?

21 A. Yes. The surrounding hamlets included between 250 -- and the men

22 who were on the line when Kravica came under attack.

23 Q. I'm still not asking any questions about the attack on Kravica,

24 I'm simply asking about the situation before the attack. To the best of

25 your knowledge, how many members of the village guards were there in the

Page 2858

1 surrounding villages?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. What about Kravica?

4 A. Kravica, 40 people who defended the village.

5 Q. Why did you say that there were between 250 and 300 in your

6 statement in July?

7 A. That was my estimate. I know how many villages there were, and at

8 that time Kravica came under attack, I thought that was a fair figure.

9 Q. I would like to now take you back to this document, if you could

10 please look at page 0132-0326. Again, it says "Donji Bacici," and then it

11 reads "Artillery."

12 Do you agree, sir, that artillery personnel are people who operate

13 artillery weapons?

14 A. I have no idea who they are. I've never been in the army. I have

15 no idea what that means.

16 Q. Can you please look at the list. Do you recognise any of these

17 names? Do you know any of these persons?

18 A. From Donji Bacici?

19 Q. Slow down, Witness, please.

20 A. From Donji Bacici?

21 Q. Witness, can you please look at this column under the

22 heading "Artillery Men," if you could please look at the names,

23 or "Gunners," as the document says. Do you know any of these persons?

24 A. Yes, I know these people.

25 Q. Do you know where these persons were deployed between May 1992 and

Page 2859

1 the 7th of January, 1993?

2 A. I don't know where they were deployed, but they were all in

3 Kravica.

4 Q. In other words, all these people are locals from Kravica, aren't

5 they?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Very well, Witness. Thank you. Witness, are you aware of the

8 fact that Siljkovici had artillery?

9 A. They had an artillery piece; I don't know whether it was a mortar

10 or something else. But yes, they did have a mortar.

11 Q. So you do know what artillery is, don't you?

12 A. Well, I heard about it. I heard about a mortar. I never saw it,

13 nor did I ever handle one. But I heard that there was a mortar at

14 Siljkovici.

15 Q. The Prosecutor, on Tuesday, asked you whether the defence lines in

16 Kravica were held only by men from Kravica, that is, local people.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you confirmed this.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that there were no volunteers from

21 Serbia there and no people from various other units in various places?

22 A. No, I'm not aware of that. Soldiers did come to assist us from

23 Bratunac. When there was a large-scale attack, they would stay a day or

24 two until things quietened down, and then they would go back to Bratunac.

25 Q. Only from Bratunac?

Page 2860

1 A. I only know about those from Bratunac.

2 Q. Do you know that there were many volunteers from Serbia who had

3 come from Stara Pazova, for example, at the beginning of the war?

4 A. I didn't know these people.

5 Q. Very well.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask the usher to

7 put on the ELMO document 02 -- to hand to the witness document 0207-5896.

8 This is an excerpt from a document of the Bratunac military post, which

9 begins with 0207-5870 to 0207-5956. At present what is relevant for us is

10 only the present document. I just wanted to state what its origin was,

11 which is why I read the first and last ERN numbers of the entire document.

12 Q. Witness, please take a look at this document.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And I would like to ask the usher to

14 put for a moment on the ELMO the Prosecutor's map, P455.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait, wait, wait, we are not receiving

16 interpretation.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, please take another look at this map which you indicated

19 things on yesterday.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: You may proceed.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you remember, witness, that you yesterday you marked for the

23 Prosecutor on the map you have before you the village of Sandici.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you show it to Their Honours once again.

Page 2861

1 A. [Indicates]. Here it is.

2 Q. The village of Sandici is a Muslim village, is it not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct that it was very close to this line that you drew

5 yesterday --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. -- as the line of defence of your village?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you please look at this document now, please.

10 A. This one?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. I've seen it, yes.

13 Q. Witness, please bear with me a little. I only wish to obtain

14 answers to questions I need to ask. I need to get your answers to these

15 questions. Please look at these names. You have 17 names here. The

16 names are followed by the year of birth and the address. This document is

17 entitled "List of Persons Killed in Sandici." When you look at the dates

18 of death, would you agree that the first 13 were killed in Sandici on the

19 24th of May, 1992? 1992, I do apologise, the 29th of May, 1992. I may

20 have misspoken.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, and it's not the first 13, but the first 11,

22 Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I do apologise.

24 Q. The first 11 were killed on the 29th of May, 1992.

25 Witness, now please take a look at these villages and tell Their

Page 2862

1 Honours --

2 A. Can I say something about these men?

3 Q. No. Please answer my questions. If the Trial Chamber later

4 permits you to say something else, then you may later on. Please, under

5 number 6, Dragica Mastikosa from Novi Sad, killed on the 29th of May,

6 1992, in Sandici; Vesna Krdzalic, on the 29th of May, 1992, in Sandici.

7 Novi Sad is a town in Serbia, is it not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mile Vorkapic from Tenje; Jovanovic Zarko from Medulin; Grahovac

10 Aleksandar from Borovo Masilje [phoen]; Muljadin Doljanovic [phoen] from

11 Beli Manastir. Is it not correct, Witness, that these are towns in the

12 Serbian Krajina, towns outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. What were these people doing in Sandici at your defence line on

15 the 29th of May, 1992?

16 A. Do you know what happened on the 26th, when the villages were

17 taken? This was the return of the village.

18 Your Honour, may I answer this question. First I arrived here to

19 testify about my father and my grandfather --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but you answer the questions that are put to

21 you, Mr. Popovic. What do you want to tell us about -- he is not

22 receiving interpretation, he's saying. Can you receive interpretation

23 now? Can you receive interpretation now?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, now I can.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. What did you want to tell the Trial

Page 2863

1 Chamber about these persons on this list?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that on the 26th of

3 May, the villages of Mratinci, Dornji and Gornji, and Dolovi, and Buljim,

4 Jerkovici, were burned down, and then three days later we wanted to

5 recapture these villages. And these people were killed in Sandici; that's

6 what I wanted to say.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, I suggest you close on this,

8 because you've got five minutes left.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Q. I'll put this to you. Vesna Krdzalic and Vesna Mastikosa are

11 women?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And they fought there, didn't they?

14 A. Certainly not in Kravica. They were never in Kravica. I don't

15 know where they came from.

16 Q. Have you ever heard that these women were very prominent in the

17 ethnic cleansing of Glogova?

18 A. I didn't hear about that. I didn't go to Glogova or to Bratunac.

19 I spent the entire time in Kravica. I don't know what happened in those

20 places.

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

22 conclude for today. Thank you.


24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] But before --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: This document will be marked Defence Exhibit D123.

Page 2864

1 So we stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at -- yes,

2 Ms. Richardson, what's the problem?

3 MS. RICHARDSON: No problem, Your Honour. We do have some

4 information to disclose to the Defence, and perhaps it would be best if

5 the witness were not present.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You can disclose it when we finish. We don't even

7 need to be present ourselves, I suppose.

8 MS. RICHARDSON: No, you do not.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So, Witness, you will be escorted and

10 returned to your hotel. I'm sure that within an hour tomorrow, we will be

11 finished. Have a pleasant evening.

12 We stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00. If I am not

13 feeling well tomorrow, I will ask Judge Brydensholt and Judge Eser to

14 conduct the sitting, the two of them, in my absence, in terms of

15 Rule 15(A). But I'll try to recover as much as I can by tomorrow morning

16 so that I can be present, but I don't promise anything, because I'm

17 feeling much worse than I was this morning. Thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 10th day of

20 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.