Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3577

1 Friday, 14 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Registrar, could you call the case, please.

6 And good morning to you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

11 a language you can understand?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,

13 distinguished gentlemen. I am able to follow the proceedings completely.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down, and good morning to

15 you.

16 Appearances for the Prosecution.

17 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours, and good morning my

18 learned friends of the Defence team. My name is Jan Wubben, lead counsel

19 for the Prosecution, together with co-counsel, Ms. Patricia Sellers and

20 Ms. Joanne Richardson, and our case manager Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, I thank you, and good morning to you and your

22 team.

23 Appearances for the accused.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

25 morning to my colleagues from the Prosecution. I am Vasvija Vidovic, and

Page 3578

1 together with Mr. John Jones I represent the Defence team of Mr. Naser

2 Oric. We have with us our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic, and our

3 Case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you.

5 Can we bring in the witness straight away or are there any further

6 matters? I see no --

7 MR. WUBBEN: No preliminaries today, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Any preliminaries from Defence?

9 [The witness entered court]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. Good

11 morning, everybody. I would like to ask a question, with your indulgence,

12 right at the beginning.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Good morning, Mr. Radic -- good morning to

14 you, Mr. Radic, and welcome back here. What would you like to ask? How

15 can I help you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think you are able to help

17 me. I made a mistake yesterday, and I apologise for it. I would

18 appreciate very much an opportunity to correct it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, of course, Mr. Radic. Please go ahead.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A question was asked concerning the

21 person named Mrki. There were two persons, Mrki and the chief. So I was

22 thinking of one person and I sort of replayed the whole thing last night,

23 and I must say I remember Mrki was in a combat uniform whereas the chief

24 was in civilian clothes. And I would like to make this correction in my

25 testimony. I hope you will forgive me for my error.

Page 3579

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly, Mr. Radic.

2 Ms. Sellers.

3 MS. SELLERS: Good morning, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But before you proceed, let me have this clear in my

5 mind.

6 But you also here told us yesterday, again if I remember well, but

7 usually my memory doesn't fail me much, but you also told us yesterday

8 that there was no way you were speaking of two Mrkis, only one Mrki.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I said. In fact, I

10 said unless there are two persons named Mrki. And that's when it comes to

11 the mistake I make -- I made distinguishing between Mrki and the chief.

12 The chief was in civilian clothing and Mrki was in uniform.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: What was the name of the chief? Do you know it?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I think his name was

15 Mirzat or Mirsad, but I'm not sure.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you, Mr. Radic.

17 Ms. Sellers, I apologise to you.

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I would just ask, and I think that Your

19 Honour already has done that, what the witness has just come back to

20 clarify be incorporated in the record within the context of his testimony.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, please.

22 WITNESS: Nedjelko RADIC [Resumed]

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Ms. Sellers: [Continued]

25 Q. Mr. Radic, yesterday the Chamber listened to audiotapes of a

Page 3580












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Page 3581

1 conversation about prisoner changes. Now I would like to ask you some

2 questions about that audiotape. At one point in the tape a voice says,

3 and I would say that both Defence counsel and the Chamber have copies,

4 written copies of the transcript, but I'm referring to page 5 of that

5 transcript. The ERN number on the transcript is 0168415, 0164 -- I'm

6 sorry. This will help: 01168415 to 01168421.

7 Now, at one point a voice on that transcript, Mr. Radic, says:

8 "I'm Veselin Sarac from Podravanje. There is also Nedjelko Radic from

9 Cikota. There is also a man from Indjija, who came here to work, to

10 help."

11 Did you recognise the voice that said that phrase on the

12 audiotape?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Would you please tell the Trial Chamber who was speaking at that

15 point.

16 A. Veselin Sarac.

17 Q. Is that the same Veselin Sarac who was imprisoned with you while

18 you were at the SUP in Srebrenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Is that the same Veselin Sarac who later spoke to you, after he

21 had been released, that he had participated in conversations relating to a

22 possible exchange? Is that the same Veselin Sarac?

23 A. Yes, the same person.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, also on the tape that we listened to yesterday

25 there was someone who identified themselves as Cakura.

Page 3582

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you recognise the person's voice who identified himself as

3 Cakura?

4 A. Yes, I did, because I had known Cakura for quite a while, so I

5 recognised him.

6 Q. Is this the same Cakura who you earlier testified as being from

7 Zeli [phoen] who had captured a bus from the bauxite mine and was active

8 in the SDA?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. Mr. Radic, do you know a man named Rad Bjelanovic? No,

11 Bjelanovic. Excuse my pronunciation.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did this man, Mr. Bjelanovic, did he work at the bauxite mine?

14 A. He did, and I know him because we had lived in the same town for

15 30 years.

16 Q. So I take it that you've had conversations with him or you have

17 otherwise listened to his voice?

18 A. Of course. He was my manager in the bauxite company for three

19 years. We saw each other every day.

20 Q. Did you recognise his voice on the audiotape that we listened to

21 yesterday?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is that the person who identified himself as Bjelanovic?

24 A. Yes, Rade or Radomir Bjelanovic.

25 Q. Now, did you ever come to find out that Rade or Radomir Bjelanovic

Page 3583

1 had been involved in negotiating prisoner exchanges in 1992?

2 A. I found out after the exchange when we arrived in Milici at the

3 SUP. He was the manager then, the chief, and he told me that we had

4 negotiated our exchange with Cakura and Mr. Naser Oric.

5 Q. Did you recognise the other voice that was on the tape that

6 identified itself as Naser?

7 A. No.

8 Q. But in your conversations, after your release, to Mr. Bjelanovic,

9 did he give you the impression that he was certain that he had spoken to

10 Cakura and to Naser Oric about this prison exchange?

11 A. Yes, Bjelanovic said that he had talked with them, with Cakura and

12 with Naser, but I cannot confirm that because I didn't know Naser and I

13 cannot identify his voice one way or another. It's Bjelanovic,

14 B-j-e-l-a-n-o-v-i-c.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic. Now, Mr. Radic, the person on the tape who

16 identifies himself as Naser says that "there's a detainee from Zenica who

17 most probably will be released today at the exchange." And at this point

18 I'm referring to page 8 of our transcript, almost at the bottom of the

19 page, transcript of the audiotape. Now, Mr. Radic, you testified

20 previously that there was a prisoner from Zenica in the room to the right

21 of yourself. To your knowledge, was that prisoner released from detention

22 before you and the other men in your cell were released from detention?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know how many days after you arrived in the prison that the

25 man or the detainee from Zenica was released?

Page 3584












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Page 3585

1 A. I couldn't say exactly. It was a long time that I spent there,

2 but I think he was released after four or five days. I'm not quite sure,

3 but soon after I arrived -- in fact, he was exchanged.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you also testified that Mr. Sarac, Nevenko, Zoran

5 Bankovic, yourself, were continuously beaten in the prison starting on the

6 evening of September 25th. By the time the prisoner from Zenica was

7 released, would it be your testimony that you had received several

8 beatings before his release?

9 A. Yes, yes, that's true.

10 Q. I would like you to recall the other part of the conversation that

11 Mr. Veselin Sarac transmits over the radio. It's on page 5 of the

12 transcript. He says: "Nobody has harmed us. We are well for now and you

13 can talk with me some more or the Comrade Naser."

14 Wasn't it true by this time when Veselin Sarac says that, he had

15 already been beaten several times in the prison?

16 A. That statement made by Veselin Sarac is not correct. We were

17 beaten several times up to that day when he went to negotiate.

18 Q. Also on page 5 of the transcript, there is a voice that has N in

19 front of it, we presume that of Naser Oric as one of the four voices on

20 the tape, that says: "So one of your people is here. He is, he has come

21 here, so this is just to convince you that they are alive and well and

22 that nobody has touched them."

23 Mr. Radic, would it be your opinion that this statement that

24 "nobody has touched them" would be untrue at the point in time that this

25 audiotape was made?

Page 3586

1 A. No. Up to that time when Sarac went for negotiations, Kukic had

2 already been killed and of course we had been beaten.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'd like to move on to the next area of his

5 testimony at this point in time, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do, Ms. Sellers.


8 Q. Mr. Radic, you testified previously that you saw the person

9 referred to as Naser Oric three times during your stay at the SUP

10 building. Now, could you please describe for the Trial Chamber the third

11 occasion on which you saw Naser Oric.

12 A. The third time was on the 15th in the evening, because we were

13 exchanged on the 16th. I don't remember what time it was. At night all

14 five of us were taken out or called out of our cells, and we were taken to

15 that room with the wood-burning stove where we found Mr. Naser Oric, Kemo,

16 I believe Mrki was there, too, but I'm not sure. And they lined us up.

17 And then Mr. Naser asked each one of us in turn whether we knew this man,

18 I believe his name was Akif Hrustic. Of course I didn't know him. I had

19 never been to Srebrenica before that. Three other prisoners didn't know

20 him either. There was a man from Indjija, there was a postman from

21 Fakovici, and I believe Sarac was the only one who knew him. I later

22 found out that Sarac indeed knew both Akif and his father. Thereupon

23 Mr. Naser Oric said to Sarac: You must know him. His father is a

24 butcher. But Sarac said: No, I don't. And then Naser struck him only

25 once with the back of his hand. And then he grabbed him by the foot for a

Page 3587

1 moment, lifted it, held it like that for a second, and then let go. That

2 was the third time that Mr. Naser came to visit in that entire period.

3 Q. So did Mr. Naser Oric strike Veselin on his face or on his chest

4 or on another part of his body?

5 A. I didn't notice because I wasn't really paying attention -- in

6 fact, I didn't dare to look. I think he struck him on the face. I'm not

7 sure.

8 Q. And after Mr. Sarac was struck, did he remain standing or did he

9 fall down or did he sit down?

10 A. He remained standing.

11 Q. And after Naser Oric struck Mr. Sarac, what did you and the other

12 detainees do or say?

13 A. We didn't say anything. We kept quiet.

14 Q. Now, how long were you in the room with the wood-burning stove

15 along with Naser Oric, Kemo and Mrki on this third occasion?

16 MR. JONES: It's just that my learned friend keeps referring to

17 Naser Oric. It should be clear that this is the person who called himself

18 Naser. There was never any identification by this witness.

19 MS. SELLERS: I agree with that, Your Honour, I'm sorry. Referred

20 to as Naser Oric.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken. The Trial Chamber notes it. In any

22 case, Ms. Sellers, throughout almost, with a few exceptions here and

23 there, you know, as always, the man who described himself as Naser Oric.

24 MR. JONES: Yes, I just wanted that to remain clear.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Jones.

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Page 3589


2 Q. I would ask, how long were you in the room, you and the other

3 prisoners, with the man who referred to himself as Naser Oric, with Kemo,

4 and Mrki on this third occasion?

5 A. We didn't stay there for a long time after that incident with

6 Sarac. They returned us to our cell.

7 Q. Was anyone else, any of the other prisoners who were with you,

8 were they physically mistreated on that occasion in the room with the

9 person who referred to himself as Naser Oric?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And you referred to the date of the 15th. Could you please tell

12 the Trial Chamber, would that be the 15th of what month and what year,

13 please?

14 A. The 15th of October, 1992.

15 Q. And then you referred to the date of your exchange as the 16th.

16 Would you please confirm for the Trial Chamber that would be the 16th of

17 October, 1992.

18 A. Yes. The very next day, the 16th of October, 1992.

19 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, were you and Zoran Brankovic, the postman,

20 Nevenko, and Veselin Sarac released from the prison on the following day?

21 A. Yes. All of us.

22 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber how you

23 left the prison.

24 A. The next morning Cude arrived, the keyturn of the prison. He

25 unlocked our cell and told us that we would be exchanged. At first I

Page 3590

1 couldn't believe this. We all came out into the hall. He had a bottle of

2 water. He poured some water for us to wash. Outside the main entrance to

3 the SUP building there was a lorry parked; it was yellow, the FAP type.

4 We brought it, the lorry -- actually we hoisted Nevenko's body up because

5 he couldn't climb himself, and then the four of us boarded the lorry. We

6 stayed there for about ten minutes and then Kemo arrived and he told Zoran

7 Bankovic and Mr. Sarac to get off the lorry. They got off, he took them

8 back to the same room inside the SUP building. They stayed for a couple

9 of minutes. And then Kemo ordered me and the postman to get off, too, to

10 hoist Zoran Bankovic's body up onto the lorry and Veselin Sarac, too.

11 Nevenko was unable because he had been beaten badly. So we lifted them

12 onto the lorry one by one. This probably meant that they had been beaten

13 on the day of our exchange. Once we got them onto the lorry, Kemo sat

14 down inside the cab with the driver, and we took off to our exchange.

15 Q. And where were you taken to to be exchanged?

16 A. We arrived in a place called Potocari. They parked the lorry

17 outside a house. Kemo was off somewhere, carrying the megaphone. I'm not

18 sure where he was off to. When he returned about 20 minutes later, he

19 told us that he had gone to negotiate with the Serbian side and something

20 to the effect that they would not have us back. He was probably just

21 trying to frighten us. We waited there for another hour or thereabouts,

22 and then we set out on that same lorry, and Kemo, naturally, was with us.

23 We reached a place called Zuti Most, which is in the vicinity of Potocari.

24 We arrived. We got off the lorry, the two of us, and we carried the three

25 other men down from the lorry and sat them down on the ground.

Page 3591

1 At that moment, a car appeared, a Serbian police car. As far as I

2 know, a police officer named Jokic from Bratunac was there. Behind the

3 car, there was a tractor carrying 20 dead bodies. Among those dead

4 bodies, there was also the body of Akif Hrustic. I apologise. I believe

5 the last name is Hrustic. This is something I found out later. I found

6 out that he was uncle of Mr. Naser Oric. At least, that's what I heard.

7 I have no idea whether it's true or not, but that's what I heard. We were

8 then exchanged for those dead bodies.

9 Q. Were you eventually taken to Bratunac that day of your exchange?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, when you arrived in Bratunac, were you still with Nevenko,

12 Veselin Sarac, with Zoran Bankovic, and with the person you referred to as

13 the postman?

14 A. Yes. They were all at the hotel in Bratunac. We were put up

15 there.

16 Q. Were any of the prisoners who came to Bratunac with you taken to a

17 hospital or a medical facility to treat any of their injuries?

18 A. That same evening Slavenko was taken to Zvornik, to the hospital

19 there. He died several days later. The same evening the postman was

20 visited by some relatives of his and he left with them. Veselin Sarac,

21 Zoran, and myself remained at the hotel until the next morning.

22 Q. At the hotel, did anyone interview you about what had happened at

23 the prison in Srebrenica?

24 A. Yes, there was a man there I didn't know. I later found out that

25 he was a journalist. He put a mike in front of me, a microphone or

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Page 3593

1 whatever.

2 Q. Do you know whether this journalist also interviewed Veselin Sarac

3 or Mr. Nevenko or the other prisoners?

4 A. Yes, yes. Yes.

5 Q. Were you present when these interviews were taking place?

6 A. Yes. We were all in the same room. The first questions were

7 addressed to Sarac, because he was the one who looked the most badly

8 beaten of all of us. I assume Nevenko came up next, and then he asked me

9 questions, too. I don't think he asked Zoran any questions, but I can't

10 remember.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, before you, Mr. Sarac, or Nevenko were asked

12 questions, did the people in the Bratunac hotel physically mistreat you or

13 try and alter your appearance or in any way try and frighten you or make

14 you have the appearance of someone who was frightened?

15 A. [No interpretation]

16 Q. Before you were interviewed along with Mr. Sarac or Mr. Nevenko,

17 did anyone at the hotel tell you what to say or how to answer any

18 questions?

19 A. No. We didn't even know that a journalist would be there to

20 interview us. We were put into a room and perhaps half an hour later the

21 journalist came along. There was a boy who worked at reception and there

22 were two of my relatives who had heard of the exchange, of the exchange to

23 take place, and they came over to be there. But no one mistreated us or

24 beat us there. How could they have done anything like that? We were,

25 after all, on Serbian territory. We were on the Serbian side now.

Page 3594

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radic.

2 MS. SELLERS: I would now like to show the exhibit Prosecution --

3 one minute, Your Honours. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 98, and I do

4 have a revised transcript of that exhibit I would like to pass on.

5 May we proceed, Your Honours?

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. One moment, Ms. Sellers.

7 Yes, Ms. Sellers, you may proceed.


9 Q. Mr. Radic, I'm going to ask you to look at the images that are

10 going to appear on the screen in front of you and to please listen to the

11 audio part of these images.

12 MS. SELLERS: Can we proceed?

13 [Videotape played]

14 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I think we have a slight problem.

15 There is no audio.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We certainly don't have audio, but it isn't running.

17 We're just having a still there, a still shot of --

18 MS. SELLERS: We'll proceed for one more second.

19 [Videotape played]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, we can hear it, but it is low --

21 MS. SELLERS: It's very low. Might I ask Mr. Radic --

22 Q. Are you able to hear that?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I can barely hear it myself and I --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the President, please.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I can barely hear it myself, so we need to increase

Page 3595

1 the volume -- is it possible to increase the volume? We can make

2 adjustments -- one moment. No, I don't think we can make adjustments on

3 what we have here because it's only the colour management. Yeah, I think

4 it should work now. Try it, please.

5 But, Ms. Sellers, we can hear more or less some of the words but

6 we don't have the video now. No, I tried.

7 MS. SELLERS: We have the video and the muffled words.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's try it.

9 [Videotape played]


11 Q. Mr. Radic, I would like to ask you, are you able to hear the

12 video?

13 A. Not all of it, but I understand some bits and pieces.

14 Q. Okay. I would ask you to pay as close attention as possible.

15 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber if you recognise the person whose

16 image you see in front of you now.

17 A. Veselin Sarac.

18 Q. Now, if you look at the person you've identified as Veselin

19 Sarac's face, would it be your testimony that he received what looks --

20 appears to be bruises on his face from beatings administered at the prison

21 in Srebrenica?

22 A. Most probably, because no one beat us at the hotel in Bratunac.

23 MS. SELLERS: Please continue the video.

24 [Videotape played]

25 MS. SELLERS: I'm sorry. Can we just go forward for two more

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Page 3597

1 seconds.

2 [Videotape played]


4 Q. Mr. Radic, if you were able to listen to that last part of the

5 conversation, where in the transcript it refers to a person supposedly

6 Naser Oric who hit Mr. Sarac, is it your opinion that they're referring to

7 that incident that happened on the third time that you were in the

8 presence of the person referred to as Naser Oric?

9 MR. JONES: I don't think this witness should offer his opinion as

10 to what's being discussed. He's given his evidence about what he saw and

11 I don't see how this line of questioning will be helpful.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can rephrase it a little bit different, whether

13 it reflects actually what he saw. I can't tell you myself how to rephrase

14 it, obviously.


16 Q. Mr. Radic, this last part of the conversation where it speaks of a

17 person supposedly Mr. Naser Oric having hit Mr. Veselin related to someone

18 named Akif Hrustic, does that reflect what occurred or what you testified

19 occurred on the third time that you were with the person supposedly called

20 Naser Oric?

21 A. Well, the story rings true. He says that it was on the same

22 evening and he refers to Akif, which means that it must have been the same

23 evening that Mr. Naser struck him. I think I did say a while ago in my

24 testimony I believe he struck him on the face once. And in connection

25 with Akif, he says on this tape that he did know him but he couldn't

Page 3598

1 remember at the time. It's true that it was on the evening of the 15th of

2 October, 1992.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: We can continue now.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Mr. Radic, I would ask you now to look at the screen and could you

8 please tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, who is this person in the

9 image before you?

10 A. This is Nevenko, the man from Indjija.

11 Q. And this is the Nevenko who was imprisoned with you in the

12 Srebrenica SUP?

13 A. Yes.

14 [Videotape played]


16 Q. Mr. Radic, I would like to ask you, do you recognise the person

17 who's in the image before you now?

18 A. Certainly. That's me.

19 Q. Were you wearing what appears to be a black shirt in the prison

20 during your stay in Srebrenica, your imprisonment in Srebrenica?

21 A. No. I received that shirt in the hotel in Bratunac.

22 Q. What were -- what clothing were you wearing while you were

23 imprisoned in Srebrenica?

24 A. I had no clothes. I only had my shorts. I was stripped of

25 everything else. I had this blanket given me by the turnkey Cude, and I

Page 3599

1 covered myself with that blanket while I was there.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MS. SELLERS: Continue.

4 [Videotape played]


6 Q. Mr. Radic, to your knowledge, the things that Veselin Sarac and

7 Mr. Nevenko and yourself have spoken about in this interview, are they

8 true?

9 A. In what Sarac said, two things are not accurate. I am trying to

10 be as accurate and honest as I can. First of all, there was no power at

11 the time, no electricity, so when they said they used electricity to hurt

12 him on his sex, I don't think that's true. And the second thing, when he

13 said that sometimes there were ten or 12 people beating us, that's not

14 true because that number of people could not fit into that room. Whenever

15 they beat us, there were no more than two to four. And what Nevenko said

16 and what I said is true. I agree with his statement.

17 Q. Now, there comes one time in the video when you were speaking and

18 you say that you were in combat when you were captured. Did you consider

19 yourself to be in combat when you were captured?

20 A. I do believe that because when I was with this piece of mining

21 equipment, there was shooting from Bijelo Polje. At the village of

22 Kutuzari, they were shooting at this mining machine. The driver was in

23 the cab, and two operators were down there in the fork. I was holding

24 this M-48 rifle that I didn't have issued to me personally because we

25 carried only two rifles whenever we went to get water. I had only six

Page 3600












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Page 3601

1 rounds therefore, and I didn't shoot them in the direction of Bijelo

2 Polje, not all. I later gave that rifle to Krnjo and set off towards

3 Bracan, not knowing that Bracan had been captured by Muslim -- what shall

4 I call them? It was not the army, not the civilians, but a mixture of

5 both. Let's call them Muslim forces. So I believe that since I was

6 shooting at them and they were shooting at me, it was combat. Of course,

7 I ran out of ammunition, then I dropped my gun. I no longer had a weapon

8 or ammunition at the moment when I was captured. That's all I can say.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. SELLERS: I would like to turn to a final set of questions and

11 I will be finishing soon, Your Honours. Can you just give me one moment,

12 please.

13 [Prosecution counsel confer]

14 MS. SELLERS: Right. I do have to ask the registrar for a new

15 number for what is P98.1E, and that's a revised transcript.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I think we'll do it the same way we did

17 yesterday. We'll put dot 1.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The previously appended transcript had the number

19 P98E. And the new -- the transcript tendered today gets exhibit number

20 P98.1E.


22 MS. SELLERS: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, both of you.

24 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I just assume that that would be moved

25 into evidence.

Page 3602

1 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, I just want to return quickly to one or two

2 points, and you testified previously that on the 25th of September your

3 teeth were pulled out by pliers by a person called Kemo. Afterwards, you

4 testified that your mouth was disinfected by urine. Now, did someone

5 urinate into your mouth after your teeth had been pulled out?

6 A. Yes. That person was Kemo.

7 Q. And so when you said that your mouth was "disinfected by urine,"

8 were you saying that a bit ironically and facetiously?

9 A. I don't quite understand the question.

10 Q. Let me rephrase.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Were you being ironic; in other words, cynical,

12 about it? Ironic?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.


15 Q. Did you consider the fact that Kemo urinated into your mouth a

16 medical practice that was actually going to help your mouth after that

17 point?

18 A. No, no.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: That answered the question, Ms. Sellers.

20 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

21 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you have referred to someone who supposedly is

22 Naser Oric at several points in your testimony. The person who you said

23 that you saw on three occasions while in prison that referred to himself

24 as Naser Oric, did you ever see that person or an image of that person

25 after you left the Srebrenica prison?

Page 3603

1 A. I watched a videotape, I believe it was, and if I had known I

2 would be coming here I would have probably brought it. On that videotape

3 I saw Mr. Naser Oric on horseback.

4 Q. Do you know what colour horse he was on? Do you remember?

5 A. I think white.

6 Q. Did you have any other occasions to see the person referred to

7 Naser Oric or an image of the person referred to as Naser Oric, whether as

8 a photograph, in print, or on a tape, or television after that point?

9 A. Afterwards, when Mr. Oric had come to The Hague and when he was

10 saying to this Honourable Court that he was not guilty, this hearing was

11 broadcast where I live.

12 Q. And is the person that you saw on that broadcast the same person

13 that you saw on three occasions in the prison in Srebrenica?

14 A. Yes.

15 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, I have no further questions for the

16 witness.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Sellers.

18 Mr. Jones, you have two -- the option of starting now or have the

19 break now and start immediately after. It's up to you.

20 MR. JONES: Yes, I think the break now would be preferred.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll have -- you'll not finish today for

22 sure?

23 MR. JONES: No.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a 25-minute break. Thank you.

25 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

Page 3604












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Page 3605

1 --- On resuming at 10.51 a.m.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So just to put you in the picture, Mr. Jones, and

3 also the Prosecution, I have been advised by the -- or we have been

4 advised by the Victims and Witnesses Section not to take this sitting

5 until the end, to proceed, say, for about another hour or so. Reason is

6 that we have a little bit of a problem. The witness is feeling a little

7 bit tired and congested, and we will proceed for another hour or until --

8 or even earlier if he's not in a position to continue testifying today.

9 That obviously -- this doesn't in any way affect your -- the time you need

10 -- require to finish your cross-examination.

11 MR. JONES: Yes, that's quite all right, Your Honour. And we

12 understand.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Mr. Radic, now we are going to switch sides, we

14 are going to the Defence, and Mr. Jones, who is co-counsel for Mr. Oric,

15 will be putting a few questions to you. Not a few, actually quite a few.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Jones:

17 Q. Yes, Mr. Radic -- you can see I'm over here. You told us

18 yesterday how Mr. Kukic was killed by Kemo on the second night that you

19 were in the SUP, which would be the 25th of September 1992, and you were

20 an eyewitness to that.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So I'm going to start by asking you some questions about that

23 incident. Now, when Kemo started to hit Kukic, Kukic cursed Kemo's and

24 Mrki's Ustasha mothers. Is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3606

1 Q. I think we're all familiar, probably, with this curse in your

2 language. Is what Kukic said: "Fuck your Ustasha mothers"?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And for the benefit of everyone, "Ustasha" was a famously brutal

5 puppet government of the Nazis in Croatia during the Second World War.

6 Can you confirm that?

7 A. I wouldn't like to answer this question. I don't know.

8 Q. Well, surely you've heard of the term "Ustasha" before. What does

9 that mean to you?

10 A. Ugly, an ugly term. To me it's a slur when you hear somebody

11 called Chetnik or Ustasha; it's the same to me.

12 Q. The Ustasha government was responsible for the deaths of tens of

13 thousands of Serbs and Jews, wasn't it, during the Second World War?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So to say "Fuck your Ustasha mother" is a terrible insult, isn't

16 it? It's like in the West saying: "Fuck your Nazi mother"?

17 A. I agree with that.

18 Q. Isn't it about the most insulting thing you can say to someone in

19 your language?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it depends who this someone is.

21 MR. JONES: Perhaps. Let me move on to another question.

22 Q. Wasn't it on hearing that curse against his mother that Kemo flew

23 into a rage and hit Kukic on the chest with a log?

24 A. It's most likely that he was irritated by that curse, and then he

25 hit him with that split log on the chest, as he would have done with me,

Page 3607

1 I'm sure.

2 Q. He was more than irritated, wasn't he? Isn't it a fact that he

3 flew into a terrible rage when he heard that insult and he was out of

4 control at that point?

5 A. Yes, but it's no reason to kill a man because of one word.

6 Q. Of course not, Mr. Radic. I wouldn't suggest that for a second.

7 What I'm seeking to establish with your testimony is that it was that

8 provocation, whether justified or not, which led to Mr. Kemo to lose his

9 self control. Would you accept that?

10 A. In any case I can accept that. I too would be angered by

11 something like that, but I certainly wouldn't kill a man over it. I could

12 perhaps hit someone, maybe even more than once, but I would never do

13 something of the kind Kemo did.

14 Q. Absolutely. But isn't it right that it was that single blow, or

15 it was a single blow by an enraged Kemo that killed Kukic, after hearing

16 this insult?

17 A. It was a single blow with that split log.

18 Q. And Kemo then immediately tried to revive Kukic with water, didn't

19 he?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But it was too late at that point.

22 MR. JONES: The witness said "da," it wasn't interpreted.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I didn't hear him say "da."

24 Did you say "da," Mr. Radic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.

Page 3608












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13 English transcripts.













Page 3609


2 Q. Did you get the impression from all of this that Kemo didn't mean

3 to kill Kukic?

4 A. I couldn't answer that. Probably not. If he had known this blow

5 would kill him, he probably wouldn't -- although I'm not sure. I don't

6 know, really. I don't think -- I can't believe he was inhuman enough to

7 kill a man. Only Kemo knows for sure.

8 Q. The next day, the next morning, Kemo asked you if Kukic was alive,

9 didn't he?

10 A. Yes -- no, no. He asked us what had happened to him, if he was

11 alive or not.

12 Q. When he found out -- when Kemo found out that Kukic was dead,

13 didn't he immediately take steps to conceal the fact that Kukic had been

14 killed by disposing of the body that morning?

15 A. Kemo knew that very evening, that very moment, that Kukic was

16 dead. He didn't need to wait until the morning. He knew right away.

17 Q. Okay. But the next morning he immediately disposed of the body in

18 some unknown location.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when Kemo asked you what happened to Kukic the next morning,

21 did you understand that as a sort of hint that you were to keep silent as

22 to how Kukic really died?

23 A. I can only speak about myself. I don't know about the others.

24 That would certainly have. I understood that. But I can't tell you about

25 the other detainees, what their opinion was.

Page 3610

1 Q. Okay. But for yourself, then, you understood that as a message to

2 you that you should keep silent that Kemo killed Kukic?

3 A. Of course, yes.

4 Q. And you replied to Kemo that Kukic died of a heart attack or a

5 stroke, indicating indeed that you were going to keep secret that fact.

6 Would that be right?

7 A. No, it wasn't me who answered. It was one of us, the prisoners,

8 who said that he had suffered a heart attack, not a stroke in fact, a

9 heart attack.

10 Q. When you first saw the person who you said introduced himself as

11 Naser, which I think was a few days later, you said that no one was

12 beating you and that Kukic died of a heart attack.

13 A. Yes. Mr. Naser asked us if anyone had beaten us, and we said not.

14 In relation to Kukic we said that he had died as a result of a heart

15 attack. Personally, I feared for my own fate. I feared that I might

16 suffer the same fate as Kukic, and for that very reason, I did not dare

17 say that anyone had beaten us.

18 Q. In fact you did keep it secret from everyone else in the prison,

19 including this person calling himself Naser, that Kemo had killed Kukic.

20 You kept it a secret.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Perhaps I should rephrase that. Did you keep it --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think you are on the same wavelength.


25 Q. Perhaps you think I'm referring to your co-detainees. You kept it

Page 3611

1 secret from the other Muslims in the prison that Kemo had killed Kukic.

2 Would that be right?

3 A. No. The prisoners who were with me saw that he was dead when he

4 was brought back to the cell. Of course they realised he had been killed.

5 As for the other Muslims, I didn't tell any of them or meet any of them,

6 for that matter.

7 Q. And when the person who called himself Naser asked about Kukic and

8 you said that he died from a heart attack, didn't he say, "Why didn't you

9 tell me? We could have got a doctor."

10 A. I don't remember that.

11 Q. If I could refer you to your 2000 statement in May 2000 to

12 investigators of the ICTY, which was referred to yesterday -- and we have

13 copies for everyone if need be.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: We have it, too, Mr. Jones.

15 MR. JONES: If the witness could be shown the B/C/S version.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think the witness should be given a copy of it so

17 he can follow.

18 MR. JONES: In the English version it's page 9 of 12. ERN

19 02030472, and it's the first two paragraphs.

20 Q. Mr. Radic, in your version it's page 8, paragraphs 8 and 9. Do

21 you see that page 8, paragraphs 8 to 9 on your version. Naser Oric asked:

22 "What happened to Kukic?

23 "We said he had a heart attack during the night."

24 Naser Oric asked: "Why didn't you report his illness? We would

25 have brought him a doctor."

Page 3612












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Page 3613

1 You remained silent. Do you remember saying that?

2 A. I don't, I really don't remember saying that. If I did remember,

3 I would certainly say so. It's possible, it's just that I don't remember.

4 Q. You can keep the statement with you. I'll be referring to it

5 again subsequently.

6 In terms of beatings you also told us yesterday that Kemo and the

7 others hit you on the chest mostly in order to avoid leaving visible

8 marks. You said, and I'll refer to the transcript, it's page 57, lines 3

9 to 6: "There were no visible injuries. They would beat us from the waist

10 up, on the chest, on the back, that sort of thing. They hardly ever hit

11 us or punched us on the face in order hard to cause an injury that would

12 have been visible."

13 A. Yes, I did state that and that is true.

14 Q. My question is: Isn't it right then that the people who beat you

15 didn't want there to be signs that they were beating you?

16 A. Probably.

17 Q. And weren't you told to clean up when important people came to the

18 prison; told to wash your face and to clean your wounds?

19 A. We didn't have enough water to drink let alone wash. There was a

20 shortage of water in Srebrenica at the time. The reservoir had been mined

21 or it had been shut down, I'm not sure which. So they, too, used the

22 springs nearby for their own needs. We couldn't have any drinking water

23 except when Cude was around. And I remember that twice a police officer

24 in uniform came to bring us water, but not the rest of them. We would not

25 have any water for half a day at a time, not even to drink let alone to

Page 3614

1 wash our faces. There was a shortage.

2 Q. But you did on one or two occasions, did you not, wash your faces

3 to clear the signs of wounds, injuries, at least before you were

4 exchanged?

5 A. That was on the 16th of October, 1992, the morning that we set out

6 to be exchanged. That was the first time I washed my face while --

7 Q. That's not true to say that when important people came to the

8 prison you were told to wash your faces? That's not something which is

9 correct?

10 A. No. I don't know if I stated that. I don't remember. If I did,

11 I really don't remember. My apologies. Maybe it was misinterpreted or

12 mistranslated, but I certainly don't remember ever stating anything like

13 that.

14 Q. We can come back to that.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Jones. Judge Eser.

16 JUDGE ESER: May I have a question to the Defence. The statement

17 you are referring to, was it made by Mr. Radic? If I am right in my

18 memory, a statement which you presented to him was made by one of the

19 witnesses whom we saw in the video.


21 JUDGE ESER: It was not -- I don't remember that Mr. Radic made

22 this statement.

23 MR. JONES: It's something I wanted to check, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think -- I don't even think, I'm positive

25 that Judge Eser is correct, or is right. It was someone else, not the

Page 3615

1 witness.

2 MR. JONES: Nonetheless, the answer is helpful.

3 Q. So since the guards, Kemo and others, were trying not to leave

4 visible signs of injury, isn't it right that there weren't actually many

5 visible signs on your face that you had been beaten when you were in the

6 prison?

7 A. No. There was a wound inside my mouth when my teeth were

8 extracted, but that was inside my mouth therefore it could not be noticed.

9 My jaw is still a bit disjointed because all of my teeth had been injured.

10 Therefore, I did have a number of internal injuries, but you couldn't see

11 them on the outside.

12 Q. So in fact it wasn't obvious to someone who saw you in the prison

13 that you had been beaten, just on your physical appearance?

14 A. Yes, in terms of physical appearance, on my chin you could see

15 specks of curdled blood. I didn't shave for a while, therefore my beard

16 had grown, therefore there were some marks that you could notice, and my

17 physical disability at the time, too, of course.

18 Q. I'm going to come back to that, the injury you referred to on your

19 chin. We saw you on the video a moment ago, and in fact there aren't

20 visible marks of injury on your face in that video, is there? I won't

21 replay it.

22 A. I don't know when the footage was made. Most probably, based on

23 what I have been told -- I didn't know at the time that there was a camera

24 at the hotel in Bratunac during our exchange. I only found out when I

25 came here to testify before the Tribunal. As for the marks on my chin,

Page 3616












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Page 3617

1 when I arrived in Bratunac they had a lavatory there; we washed-up, and of

2 course I removed those marks from my chin.

3 Q. Didn't you also wash up before your exchange, that was when you

4 were still in Muslim territory?

5 A. Yes, but you couldn't wash the whole thing away. The water was

6 cold and the marks were solid, were curdled, and there wasn't enough water

7 to go around. We all of us only had a single bottle of water to wash up,

8 and it was just not enough.

9 Q. Well, dealing with the others for a moment, Nevenko, Zoran, and

10 Sarac, isn't it correct that most of the injuries we could see on the

11 video were caused either when they were beaten on the day of the exchange

12 by Kemo, which you've described to us they were taken off the truck and

13 beaten, in other words after they left the prison, and then also in

14 Potocari when some other people came and beat you? In other words, aren't

15 the injuries that we saw on them injuries which were caused after they

16 left the prison for the most part?

17 A. Sarac did have some visible injuries before that, and Nevenko

18 because Nevenko was not beaten on the day of the exchange, only Sarac and

19 Zoran. At Potocari, no one beat us. I deny that. I'm not sure who

20 stated that in the first place.

21 Q. Sarac was beaten on the day of the exchange after he left the SUP

22 building?

23 A. Yes, but he was returned to the building from the lorry, to the

24 SUP building, and that's when he was beaten, both Sarac and Zoran. And

25 then they were again returned to the lorry. The postman and myself, we

Page 3618

1 hoisted them up onto the lorry. And at Potocari, no one beat us or

2 mistreated us.

3 Q. So these beatings on the day of the exchange occurred after the

4 last time that you saw the person who called himself Naser, because you

5 saw him on the 15th of October, the night before?

6 A. Yes. Yes, that was the next day, the 16th.

7 Q. And the beatings on the 16th of Sarac and Zoran were pretty

8 severe, weren't they, from what you could tell?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Weren't those beatings in fact worse than any beatings they'd

11 received prior, when they were detained in the SUP?

12 A. Yes, of course. They made them walk and then we had to hoist them

13 up onto the lorry. And once they'd been exchanged, we sat them down.

14 During the transport, we used the same tractor to go back that had brought

15 the bodies, the bodies to be exchanged. And then they returned to

16 Bratunac. They were lying on the tractor. They were suffering too much

17 pain to even sit up. It wasn't me, after all, who was suffering their

18 pains, therefore I can't describe that for you. They would be best placed

19 to speak about this.

20 Q. Now, I said I'd return briefly to the subject of the injury on

21 your chin. You'd been beaten before you ever came to the SUP, weren't

22 you, on the day of your arrest?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you had injuries from those beatings.

25 A. No.

Page 3619

1 Q. So the beatings you sustained when you were arrested, when you

2 were walking along, as you described, with the other two prisoners, being

3 kicked and beaten, and then when you were on the truck going to Srebrenica

4 again being beaten, you say that left no visible marks on your body

5 whatsoever?

6 A. No.

7 Q. The fact is you were beaten before you came to the SUP.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you saw this person who called himself Naser, you didn't

10 say to him this injury on my chin, if he could see it, this happened while

11 I was in prison, as opposed to happening beforehand? It's not something

12 you said to him?

13 A. No, I said nothing.

14 Q. So you accept, do you, that the person, this person, may not have

15 known that you had been beaten in the prison at all on the basis of what

16 he saw?

17 MS. SELLERS: Your Honour, that calls for speculation. I just

18 want to raise the objection for the record.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, objection sustained.

20 Please rephrase your -- you can easy to rephrase it.

21 MR. JONES: I'll return to that when I come to the theme through

22 another route.

23 Q. You've told us that a lot of the time that you were in the prison

24 that the cell was very dark. Is that right?

25 A. Yes. Yes. At night, obviously, there was no electricity. And

Page 3620












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Page 3621

1 even by day, there was a small opening in the wall, some sort of a window,

2 60 by 50 centimetres was the size, and that was the only opening for the

3 light to come into the cell.

4 Q. And this was September, October, so coming on for winter. Is it

5 right that the days were very short, so it was dark both in the mornings,

6 early mornings, and early evening?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So in fact it was very hard to see any real detail of people's

9 faces in the cell?

10 A. It was difficult to see, that's one thing; secondly, there were no

11 visible injuries on our faces, and please allow me to set you right on

12 this. The last time you said -- I did not have any injuries on my chin.

13 There was blood from my mouth from when my teeth had been extracted. So

14 that's where the blood came from, from inside the mouth. I didn't have

15 any external injuries on my chin.

16 Q. That was congealed blood, it had dried?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Now, during the day, was there more light in the hallway outside

19 your cell than there was in the cell itself, if you follow what I mean?

20 Was the light coming in from the hallway?

21 A. Well, you couldn't have light coming in from the hallway because

22 the main hallway ran the whole length of the building. And the only light

23 it received was from the entrance door. There was a small corridor

24 between the entrance door and our cell. The corridor itself was even

25 darker than our cell, therefore no light could have come from there.

Page 3622

1 Q. So in fact when you looked out from your cell, you were looking

2 into even greater darkness?

3 A. Yes, because there was another door outside the cell and then the

4 corridor, that when you opened that door you would be out in the corridor.

5 Q. Now, you told us there was a window in the cell but it had no

6 glass. According to the --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- standards at that time, that was quite normal, wasn't it,

9 because most of the buildings in Srebrenica didn't have glass because of

10 aerial bombardments and shellings. Is that something you're aware of or

11 able to help us with?

12 A. No. No, I had no opportunity to walk around Srebrenica and to see

13 for myself. I was brought to the SUP building on the evening of the 24th,

14 and I never left the building except when we picked Kukic up outside the

15 building. I wasn't able to see whether it had any windows or not. I

16 wasn't even trying, there was no time.

17 Q. But you heard, when you were detained, the sound of incoming fire;

18 shells, mortars, bombs, that sort of thing?

19 A. Yes, I did hear that. Maybe twice throughout the time I spent

20 there.

21 Q. Now, you said it was too small to lie down in your cell, but I

22 think it's right to say that when we saw the video yesterday there

23 appeared to be a mattress there. I'm not suggesting that that was there

24 at the time. But isn't it right that you could actually lie down

25 full-length, there was enough space for a man to lie down in your cell?

Page 3623

1 A. Well, you can only have one person lying down on the mattress but

2 not five or six persons, and that's how many we were.

3 Q. And finally on the subject of the cell: The bars which we saw

4 also looked too small for someone to be punched through the bars. Is that

5 right? Did anyone ever punch you or the others through the bars?

6 A. Yes, of course. There was enough room between the bars. For a

7 person to put their fist through, you had to come close. They would grab

8 you by the hair through the bars, and then they would hit you against the

9 bars. Of course it was possible.

10 Q. Now I'm going to ask you some questions about visits by the person

11 who you said introduced himself as Naser Oric. Now, first -- first, no

12 one else introduced themselves in that way, did they? They didn't say, "I

13 am Kemal Ahmetovic," or "I am Mrki," or anything like that? No one

14 introduced themselves to you, did they?

15 A. Yes. On one occasion Akif came over. I do remember that, but I

16 wasn't asked about that, not now and not when I gave my statement. That

17 was before he was killed, he came to see us, he was standing in front of

18 the bars. He said his name was Akif. He was wearing military uniform,

19 combat uniform. And he said that there would be an exchange and that we

20 were to be treated in compliance with the Geneva Conventions. That was

21 the first and last time I saw him.

22 Q. This man was in his 40s or something, was he?

23 A. I really can't say exactly. He was rather short and wore a

24 moustache. I do remember that, but I can't give you his age. It's very

25 difficult for me to say.

Page 3624












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Page 3625

1 Q. Is it somebody who appeared to be too old to be, as you say, the

2 person Naser's nephew?

3 A. How should I know? I don't know whether it was a nephew or not.

4 It's just something I heard. Again, I say I'm not positive but I heard

5 that he was the uncle of Mr. Naser, but I can't be certain about this.

6 Q. All right. We'll come back to that. Presumably the first time

7 that Mr. Naser came and introduced himself, that was the first and last

8 time. In other words, there wasn't a need for him to introduce himself

9 every time he came to your cell.

10 A. No.

11 Q. You didn't know Naser Oric before the war, did you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So just to be clear, you never -- at the time, anyway, you didn't

14 identify Naser Oric in the sense of seeing someone you knew as Naser Oric.

15 A. Can you please repeat the question.

16 Q. Yes. When you saw this person who called himself Naser, you

17 didn't identify him as someone you knew. You based yourself on who he

18 said he was.

19 A. Yes. I didn't know him. He just introduced himself as Naser, and

20 I accepted it for what it was.

21 Q. Now, today you told us that subsequently you saw a video in which

22 the person was on a white horse. Now, you don't know that that person was

23 Naser Oric, or do you?

24 A. I do because this is a tape that I watched after my exchange.

25 This may have been in 1990 -- I can't be certain about this, but I think

Page 3626

1 1993 or possibly 1994. It was a year or two after my exchange.

2 Q. And in that video, didn't the person you're calling or you're

3 identifying as Naser Oric have a beard? The man on the white horse,

4 doesn't he have a beard?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Isn't the person who you said called himself Naser clean-shaven?

7 A. He was clean-shaven with a crewcut, short hair, when he came to

8 see us. But I think if I see a person on three different occasions, for

9 me that was evidence enough for me to recognise the person even 20 years

10 later, let alone a year or two later.

11 Q. Let's take that one step at a time. Mr. Radic, a beard is an

12 important feature, isn't it, of someone's physical appearance, important

13 feature in identifying them?

14 A. Yes, sir. I, too, sported a beard when I was exchanged, but now I

15 don't. I don't think you would recognise me based on that, though, with

16 or without the beard. I could grow a beard now, but for me that would be

17 no answer still. I am positive 100 per cent that the man on horseback was

18 the same man who came to our cell and whom I saw on three different

19 occasions while detained in Srebrenica.

20 Q. Was --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment because I am not -- There are two

22 things. Between his previous answer and your last question, he answered

23 something else which failed to show in the transcript, that's number one.

24 Number two is on page 38, line 3, it says: "I don't think you

25 would recognise me based on that, though, with or without the beard." I

Page 3627

1 think it should be I don't think -- I don't think you wouldn't recognise

2 me, or rather, he's saying that I think you would still recognise me, but

3 not as it is in the transcript.

4 In other words, are you saying that if we -- one looked at you

5 when you had grown a beard and one looked at you when you were

6 clean-shaven, one wouldn't be able to recognise you just the same or that

7 you are still recognisable, with or without a beard?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe the mistake is mine, but with

9 or without the beard, with or without hair, if I know a person, I know

10 them and I can recognise them with or without a beard.



13 Q. You've told us you saw this person who called himself Naser three

14 times. These were all brief occasions, weren't they, just a few moments.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. They were in the darkness that you've described, the darkness of

17 your cell, apart from the third occasion which we'll come to. Isn't that

18 right, the first two occasions was in the darkness of the cell you've just

19 described to us?

20 A. It was not such darkness that you couldn't see a man. It was

21 light enough to see a person. Otherwise Naser came to the cell by day and

22 we could see him in daylight and we could remember his face.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. What time of the day would that be?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in the morning, if I remember

25 correctly.

Page 3628

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Was it three times?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Twice. The next time we saw him was

3 in a different room, on the 25th, on the eve of the exchange.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I thank you.

5 Sorry, Mr. Jones, please proceed.


7 Q. So twice in the morning, which you agreed was dark in the

8 mornings. You also agreed earlier that it wasn't possible to see details,

9 real details on people's faces. On the video the person you're

10 identifying as Oric has a beard; in the cells you're saying he was

11 clean-shaven. What was the distinctive feature which you picked up on?

12 Was it the blue eyes which you've identified Mr. Oric as having, or was it

13 some other feature? What was it that was the distinctive feature that you

14 came to recognise?

15 A. His face itself. That was quite enough. I know, recognise,

16 Mr. Naser even now. It's the first time I actually saw him here, but it's

17 like we were there together yesterday.

18 Q. Let's look at the description which you gave of the person who you

19 saw and who you say was Oric in your interview in 2000 to ICTY

20 investigators. It's in your version page 7, the first paragraph. In our

21 version it's page 7 of 12, ERN 02030470, the third paragraph.

22 Do you see that, Mr. Radic? Page 7, first paragraph. I'll read

23 it for you.

24 A. I didn't even look at this.

25 Q. It's page 7, first paragraph in your version: "I will describe

Page 3629

1 him for you. Naser Oric had a strong build. He was not tall, maybe 160

2 centimetres. He had dark brown hair and was clean-shaven. I think Naser

3 had blue eyes. He was quite young. I don't think he was even 30 years

4 old at the time," which was 1992. "He was dressed in a yellow khaki

5 beige-green camouflage uniform, which is called an American uniform. On

6 the left breast pocket of his shirt he wore a patch that had lilies on it.

7 It was a special uniform."

8 Do you recall giving that description?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm going to ask you about the second occasion when you say that

11 you recognise Naser Oric which is when you saw --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment now because Judge Eser would have a

13 question at this point. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ESER: I have a question with regard to the darkness in the

15 morning. Mr. Radic, the Defence counsel stated so twice in the morning,

16 which you agreed, was dark in the morning. You also agreed earlier that

17 it wasn't possible to see details. Now, was it dark the whole morning?

18 The morning lasts, for me, from -- until 11.00 or 12.00. Was it dark the

19 whole morning or was it only dark in the early morning and it became

20 lighter later on?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. You couldn't see details,

22 that's what I meant. What I meant actually was that you couldn't discern

23 the details of injuries on our faces, but you could see a person. It was

24 light enough. It was day, after all, not nighttime.

25 JUDGE ESER: Thank you.

Page 3630

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Judge Eser.

2 Mr. Jones, please proceed.

3 MR. JONES: Yes, thank you.

4 Q. Just to round up on that subject. Is it right then that there

5 isn't any single specific physical feature which you can point to which

6 you recognise -- which you say you recognised later when you saw Naser

7 Oric and recognised him? You just insist that you recognise him. Would

8 that be a fair summary?

9 A. Of course not. 12 years is a long time; a person can change

10 considerably even in a few months, physically I mean. One can put on a

11 lot of weight or lose a lot of weight, get sick, get ill. There could be

12 all sorts of circumstances. But when he came to our cell and later when I

13 saw the videotape, I claim with 100 per cent certainty that it was the

14 same person, Mr. Naser Oric.

15 Q. My question, Mr. Radic, and sorry to insist on this, but it is:

16 There is no feature, is there, which you're pointing to? It's not his

17 eyes, it's not his nose, it's not his hair, it's not his beard because

18 that's changed, it's not his height or his clothes. There's no feature

19 which you're telling us you recognise, not a single feature.

20 A. Oh, that's what you meant. Of course there are such features.

21 His face mainly, his hair changed a bit. He was -- he had a short haircut

22 at the time. But his face didn't change. It was a lot thinner then, but

23 his appearance, the picture of it, the picture of his face I have in my

24 mind is the same.

25 Q. You mentioned his hair -- I'm sorry, but face is still unspecific.

Page 3631

1 MR. JONES: It looks like the witness is in discomfort.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Exactly.

3 What's the problem?

4 MS. SELLERS: Yes, Your Honour, just two things. I would like to

5 please say that right now counsel is insisting, I believe, that he has the

6 answers that he wants.

7 And second, if the witness needs to take a break, we should stop.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Either take a break or stop, as we

9 had agreed to do, because I can notice that the witness is a little bit

10 distressed at the present moment.

11 Mr. Radic, let's go to private session for a while, please.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 3632

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you understand, Mr. Jones. I mean, I

2 wouldn't have opted for this particular moment, but at the same time you

3 have cleared up the main questions that you needed to put to the witness

4 on this particular point.

5 MR. JONES: Yes, there's absolutely no problem at all with us in

6 interrupting. We're sensitive to witness concerns.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.

8 MR. JONES: I may, obviously, need to resume on this subject. I

9 haven't finished it.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, this is precisely what I meant to say. I know

11 that you haven't finished, and I wouldn't have preferred to interrupt

12 you --

13 MR. JONES: No problem.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- when we haven't actually closed this chapter.

15 However, things being what they are, I see no particular prejudice. We

16 can stop now and give Mr. Radic a rest. He is not feeling well, and I'm

17 sure that these two days -- two and a half days that you have now you can

18 relax a little bit, nurse the throat infection that you have, make sure

19 that they give you the treatment that you need for it so that on Monday

20 you'll be able to return to this courtroom fresh and in the position to

21 continue and finish the cross-examination.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So, Usher, please could you escort the witness.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE AGIUS: So that's it. I think we need to adjourn at this

Page 3633

1 point in time. We will continue with this witness on Monday. I think we

2 also ought to be planning to have the next witness available on Monday,

3 because I would imagine that you won't require the entire sitting,

4 Mr. Jones.

5 MR. JONES: No, I -- no, I didn't get that far, obviously, so I

6 would need at least another two hours.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: But you don't need the entire sitting.

8 MR. JONES: No.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So I would suggest that you will have the next

10 witness in line available at some point in time on Monday between the

11 first and the second break.

12 MR. WUBBEN: We will do, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure you will, Mr. Wubben.

14 So I think we need to -- yes, I think we need to stop here. I

15 mean, we have no other business to transact at this point. We will resume

16 on Monday at 9.00 in the morning in Courtroom I. And I wish to thank the

17 Victims and Witnesses Unit representative, who is not here in the

18 courtroom at the moment, who has helped monitor the situation for us in

19 order to make sure that the witness does not suffer any distress. I can

20 assure you that that unit does their work and its work in a very

21 professional way. I thank you all and I wish you a nice weekend. Thank

22 you.

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.44 a.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Monday, the 17th day of

25 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.