1 Tuesday, 1 February 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Registrar. Could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number

8 IT-03-68-T, the Prosecutor versus Naser Oric.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Mr. Oric, good morning to you. Can you follow the proceedings in

11 your own language?

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours and

13 distinguished gentlemen. Yes, I can.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may sit down.

15 Appearances for the Prosecution.

16 MR. WUBBEN: Good morning, Your Honours. My name is Jan Wubben,

17 lead counsel for the Prosecution. Good morning also to the Defence team.

18 I'm here together with Ms. Patricia Sellers, co-counsel, and our case

19 manager, Ms. Donnica Henry-Frijlink.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Wubben, and good morning to

21 you and your team.

22 Appearances for Naser Oric.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good

24 morning to the learned colleagues from the OTP. My name is Vasvija

25 Vidovic, and together with Mr. John Jones, I represent the Defence for

1 Mr. Oric. We have with us here our legal assistant, Ms. Jasmina Cosic,

2 and our case manager, Mr. Geoff Roberts.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Vidovic, and good morning to you

4 and your team.

5 Any preliminaries before we start?

6 Yes, Mr. Wubben.

7 MR. WUBBEN: Just in short, Your Honour. Yesterday, the Trial

8 Chamber requested for maps. We have them now available, with your leave.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MR. WUBBEN: So the usher can ...

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 MR. WUBBEN: To clarify further, Your Honour, this is the map

13 related to the region in which the witness testified.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. I appreciate that, Mr. Wubben, and

15 thank you, Ms. Sellers, as well, for passing on the message.

16 Can we continue with the witness, or are there any other

17 preliminaries?

18 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no preliminaries to raise,

20 Your Honours. I can continue.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: What about the next witness? Will we be starting

22 with the next witness today?

23 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, as discussed yesterday, it had been

24 confirmed by the Trial Chamber that there might be a possibility to start

25 this afternoon. That's how I -- that's how I had been informed. But at

1 the same time, the witness is still being proofed, in the proofing

2 schedule, so we tried to do our best. This morning, Defence counsel

3 informed me that this witness will take two hours, two and a half hours,

4 so I don't know to what time that will bring us to finalise for this

5 witness, and that we are able to bring the next witness in.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: If I have understood you well, you yourself don't

7 know if we will be hearing the -- we'll be starting with this witness

8 today, in other words.

9 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I learned some other information next to

10 me. Will you please bear me a moment to go over it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. Certainly.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, the case manager had been informed this

14 morning that -- and that's information from the senior legal officer, that

15 the witness is not projected to be heard in court today. So the next

16 witness will apparently not be available as projected by us.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move, in the meantime, and we'll

18 tackle this later, we'll see what the situation is, because you either

19 need another two and a half hours for briefing -- I don't know. Anyway,

20 we'll see -- come to it later, depending on how much time Madam Vidovic

21 will engage us in the cross-examination.

22 You can escort the witness in, please. Thank you.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 WITNESS: BRANISLAV GLIGIC [Resumed]

25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gligic, good morning to you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: We are going to proceed with your cross-examination,

4 with your testimony, and we will be finishing today for sure.

5 May I just remind you that yesterday, you made a solemn

6 declaration to testify the truth, and that you are still bound by that

7 solemn declaration today once you are continuing with your testimony.

8 Madam Vidovic.

9 Please, again, don't forget to allow an interval between question

10 and answer. Yes.

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Vidovic: [Continued]

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Gligic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. To my yesterday's question as to whether you saw anything in

15 relation to the destruction of the Muslim property, you said that there

16 were cases of some extremists going over the line, but that was merely on

17 an individual basis. But actually, this isn't right, is it?

18 A. I've already answered that question.

19 Q. On the 8th of May, 1992, some 100 Muslim houses were burnt down in

20 Skelani itself and Zabokvica, and 26 more houses in the nearby Vodivca

21 [phoen]; is that correct?

22 A. No, it isn't. The number of houses you mentioned is something I

23 don't agree with.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. You saw none of that, then; is that correct?

2 A. I was in Skelani at the time. And there were some isolated events

3 that took place, but I did not witness them. There were such incidents,

4 and the authorities in Skelani did sanction the perpetrators, if any.

5 Q. Did you hear that on the 7th and 8th of May, 1992, 140 Muslim

6 houses were burnt down in Dobrak?

7 A. Dobrak is some 5 kilometres away from Skelani. At the time, there

8 were less than 50 houses in Dobrak.

9 Q. Did you hear that 70 Muslim houses had been burnt down in Trubari?

10 A. I'm not aware of this. Trubari is some 7 to 8 kilometres away

11 from Skelani.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Yes, Judge Eser.

13 JUDGE ESER: I just want to clarify. The question of the Defence

14 counsel was, "Did you hear that on the 7th and 8th of May, 140 Muslim

15 houses were burnt down in Dobrak," and now the answer was, "At the time

16 there were less than 50 houses in Dobrak." Now, does that mean that

17 Dobrak didn't have more than 50 houses? It would, of course, not have

18 been possible to burn down 140. Or does that mean that 50 houses have

19 burnt down in Dobrak? What was your realisation, or what did you want to

20 say?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that this piece of

22 information that madam here conveyed about the number of houses burned

23 down in Dobrak, that there weren't as many houses in Dobrak at all. This

24 Muslim village of Dobrak numbered some 50 to 60 houses in total.

25 JUDGE ESER: Okay.

1 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I asked of the

2 witness whether he had heard that, on the 7th and 8th of May, 140 Muslim

3 houses were burnt down. I don't know how it was translated, not whether

4 the number was burnt down. But I will rephrase.

5 Q. Did you hear that all the Muslim houses were burnt down in Dobrak

6 on the 7th and 8th of May, 1992?

7 A. No.

8 Q. They were not burnt down, or you did not hear of that?

9 A. The houses were not burnt down because refugees from all parts of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina came to Skelani. These were Serb refugees. Some of

11 them used to live in Dobrak up until just a few years ago.

12 Q. Mr. Gligic, please answer briefly to my questions. Did you hear

13 that all the Muslim houses in Visosnik were burnt down?

14 A. When you say Visosnik, you have to specify the village, because

15 there's a Serbian village at Visosnik, up above, and below Visosnik

16 there's a Muslim village.

17 Q. My question was a very specific one. Did you hear that all the

18 Muslim houses in Visosnik were burnt down?

19 A. I don't know what to answer to this question.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Why don't you know how to answer this question? Do

21 you know whether they were burned down or not? Or don't you know?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, when you say Visosnik,

23 there's a church there and a Serb village, and below Visosnik there's

24 several Muslim villages. And I don't know which village I should refer

25 to.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to concentrate exclusively on the

2 village. You need to concentrate mostly on the Muslim and only on the

3 Muslim houses in that village or in that area, in the area of Visosnik,

4 because the question was not whether all the houses in Visosnik had been

5 burned down but whether the -- all the Muslim houses, houses belonging to

6 Muslim families in Visosnik, had been burned down. Did you hear of this?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of this.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

9 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Did you hear that all the Muslim houses in Trubari had been burnt

12 down?

13 A. I have no knowledge of this.

14 Q. All the Muslim houses in Bukovik?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. In Resagici? It's a suburb of Skelani.

17 A. There were several houses set on fire in Resagici.

18 Q. These were some 20 houses, weren't they?

19 A. I don't know. I know that two to three houses were set on fire.

20 I don't know who they belonged to, or why they were set on fire. I only

21 saw that they were.

22 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the question, the previous one.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Again, I mean, you're moving too fast.

24 Please, I appeal to both of you to slow down a little bit. The

25 interpreter did not hear your last question, and basically I think we

1 ought to repeat the last series of questions.

2 Did you hear that all the Muslim houses in Trubari had been burned

3 down? And you have answered: "I have no knowledge of this." And

4 then Madam Vidovic, correct me if I'm wrong, or fill in where I get

5 stuck. And then you asked: "All the Muslim houses in Bukovik?" And

6 that's a question whether you heard that all the Muslim houses in Bukovik

7 had been burned down, and you said: "I don't know." "In Resagici? It's

8 a suburb of Skelani." And then what I have here is that you answered

9 that: "There were several houses set on fire in Resagici." And then did

10 you ask that "These were some 20 houses, weren't they?" Was that your

11 complete question, Madam Vidovic, or did you ask something else?

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] After that, I asked: Did you hear

13 that houses were burnt down in Kadrici?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So you have two questions in one that

15 you need to answer. Your first question was: "There were several houses

16 set on fire in Resagici," and then you were asked: "These were some 20

17 houses, weren't they?" And we have here that you answered: "I don't

18 know. I know that two or three houses were set on fire. I don't know

19 who they belonged to or why they were set on fire. I only saw that they

20 were." When you referred to these two or three houses, you were

21 referring to the two or three houses in Resagici?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And now your next question is: "Did you

24 hear that houses were also burnt down in Kadrici?" Could you answer that

25 question now, please.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Did you hear that all the Muslim houses in Hadzici were burnt

5 down?

6 A. As far as I know, there is no such village in the area where I

7 live. And I'm referring to the name of the village.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there or isn't there?

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there is, Your Honour. There

10 is.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's stop here for a moment.

12 Yes, Judge Eser, please.

13 JUDGE ESER: I just have a question. Yesterday you gave us a map

14 where certain villages were marked. Now, I've tried to follow your

15 questioning, and some of the villages you mentioned are on this map,

16 marked. But when you produced the last one, I cannot find. Now, are

17 these additional villages now? And I think it would also be interesting

18 to know the distance between Skelani and the villages you mentioned. So,

19 for instance, the distance from Skelani to Resagici is rather narrow,

20 whereas the distance to Trubari seems to be rather far away from here. So

21 perhaps it would be helpful to indicate the distance between Skelani,

22 where the defendant -- where the witness lived, and the villages that

23 you're asking for. Thank you.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm asking questions

25 concerning villages that are in close proximity to Skelani, some several

1 kilometres, up to 10 kilometres at most. As for the villages that you

2 cannot locate on the map, well, these are very small villages, with only

3 a few houses, and they are not plotted onto the map. And my reason for

4 putting these questions to the witness is that the witness, yesterday,

5 testified specifically to the incidents in Kragljevode and in Jezero, and

6 these localities are far off from Skelani, at a much greater distance than

7 the ones I'm asking about now. As for Trubari, they are -- Trubari is

8 located above Jezero, and that's all in the Skelani area.

9 Your Honours, may I continue with my questioning?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, go ahead. I just want to make sure that

11 the village that you mentioned and the witness says doesn't exist in his

12 area, that we have it right on the transcript. Can you repeat the name of

13 that village, please, Madam Vidovic?

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Hadzici.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Hadzici, okay. So we have it right.

16 You have never heard of Hadzici in your area?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, please.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you hear that 27 Muslim houses were burnt down in Sulice, or

21 alternatively, did you hear that all the Muslim houses in Sulice were

22 burnt down?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All the Muslim houses in Knezovi?

25 A. No.

1 Q. All the Muslim houses in Barakovici?

2 A. Some of the houses in Barakovici were set on fire. I was passing

3 along that route and I saw that there were some houses ablaze.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Vidovic, I would suppose -- I think it would

5 be much, much, much better, and much fairer for all of us if, when you

6 refer questions to the witness with relation to the destruction of Muslim

7 houses, you put them in a time slot, whether we are talking of 1992 or

8 1993, and if we're talking of 1992, which part of 1992. I mean, at least

9 either pre-May or pre-June, I don't know, I mean it's up to you. But we

10 can then assess the answer of the witness with much more accuracy.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe it was

12 perfectly clear from the question that I asked at the outset. I'm talking

13 about two days only here, the 7th and 8th of May, 1992. It's my

14 submission that all these villages that I'm asking questions in relation

15 to were burned down on those two days.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you concentrate your answers in relation

17 to only those two days, the 7th and 8th of May, 1992. Did you understand

18 me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Thank you, Madam Vidovic, for helping us understand better.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Did you hear that, at the time, on the 7th and 8th of May, 1992 -

24 that is the time period that I'm referring to - all the Muslim houses in

25 Zgunja were burned down?

1 A. No.

2 Q. What about Donja Peci?

3 A. Donja Peci is a village never the Drina, close to the road. And

4 I had heard that several houses had been torched.

5 Q. What about Gornja Peci?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What about Mala Daljegosta?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What about Velika Daljegosta?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about Tursunovici?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What about Rijeka?

14 A. You're saying Rijeka, not Rijeke.

15 Q. You're quite right. Thank you.

16 A. Yes. There were several Muslim houses there. I think two or

17 three of those were actually torched.

18 Q. What about Suljagici?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What about Lijesce?

21 A. Not a single house was torched in Lijesce. There are both Serb

22 and Muslim houses there, and refugees lived there later on.

23 Q. Is it your testimony that over those days, the 57 Muslim houses

24 in Lijesce were actually not burnt down.

25 A. I don't know.

1 Q. The 22 Muslim houses in Tihici, what about those?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you very much, witness.

4 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that when you say "no," you mean to tell

6 us that you haven't heard, you don't know about these. Is that correct?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something. The village

8 of Tihici that madam has just referred to, she said there were about 20

9 houses there that had been torched, and I said no for the simple reason

10 that there are not that many houses in that village. There were two or

11 three families living there. Therefore, there may have been four, five,

12 ten houses in the village. It was no village, after all, it was a mere

13 hamlet.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: But were those two, three houses belonging to

15 Muslims torched down, burnt, or not? Or do you know whether they were

16 burnt or not?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard about Mr. Ahmo Tihic's house

18 being torched. I think he was commander of the Muslim army for a while.

19 I heard that his house had been torched.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But this shows me that you need to be more precise

21 in your answer. When you were asked by Madam Vidovic, "The 22 Muslim

22 houses in Tihici, what about those" and you had this information, you

23 couldn't just answer no, you had to explain. It was the case of

24 explaining, not just answering now. It was the case of telling us, first

25 of all, "There were not 22 houses in Tihici but less, and I have only

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1 heard that there was perhaps one house belonging to a certain Ahmo Tihic

2 that was burned down." That should have been your answer, not no.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, Your Honour. It's

4 been 12 years, as you know. All the trauma may have caused me to get the

5 answer wrong. But I'm telling you now: There weren't that many houses in

6 that particular village. Ahmo's house, his family's house, was torched.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's proceed.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I now wish to show a

9 video clip. The duration is about 12 minutes. There are subtitles;

10 however, we have noticed errors of a purely grammatical nature in the

11 English. The errors are not essential, but they are grammatical. We

12 have put together our own transcript of this video clip, and if I could

13 have the usher's assistance now to distribute the transcript to the

14 parties. And after that, can the technical booth, please, switch the

15 Defence video on. This video was taken by Mr. Mustafa Sacirovic while he

16 was serving as president of the commission on gathering war facts in

17 Srebrenica, and a member of the Bosnia and Herzegovina committee of

18 gathering facts in relation to the war. I would like to use D89, a

19 document, a Defence Exhibit that we have used before, which explains the

20 official capacity of Mr. Sacirovic. We have had this video clip copied

21 and we submitted a copy to the OTP yesterday. We have also produced a

22 copy for the Chamber. May the video now be played, please.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Sellers.

24 MS. SELLERS: The Defence counsel has given us a copy, and we

25 thank them for letting us see the video beforehand. I'm happy that Ms.

1 Vidovic has clarified who the presenter, Mr. Sacirovic, is. We just want

2 to add, in addition to noting a couple of grammatical errors in the

3 transcript, there appears one time in the video where the transcript --

4 there was no transcript, although there was some dialogue going on. To

5 inform Your Honours, we have listened to that and we have understood what

6 dialogue was going on. So just to put on the record that we do understand

7 that there have been problems with the transcribing. We'll reserve any

8 other objections for afterwards, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Please, witness, play close

11 attention to the video.

12 [Videotape played]

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Gligic, you have now seen the video. Is it still your

15 position that the Muslims from these villages, the villages that you

16 pointed out on the map yesterday, left their homes of their own free

17 will?

18 A. I've said this already, haven't I? You can't ask me this

19 question. You can ask me about what I did at Skelani, whether this was

20 the case or not. I simply have no idea. This footage could have been

21 taken by anyone. You can see that this man is carrying an automatic

22 rifle and shooting a video. I have no idea when or why he shot this

23 video, to begin with.

24 Q. Mr. Gligic, can you just please simply answer my question. I'm

25 putting it to you that this footage was taken in the exact locations

1 referred to by the person taking the video. But my question was of an

2 entirely different nature. I didn't ask you to comment on that. My

3 question was: Is it still your submission that the Muslims left their

4 homes of their own free will and went to the woods to hide there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So you're saying that their families left for Serbia of their own

7 free will, also?

8 A. I initially said that there were families who remained or went to

9 Srebrenica. As many as 70 per cent of women and children in those

10 villages went with the Red Cross to Serbia, to Bajina Basta. There must

11 be more accurate information available. I read about this in the press.

12 And I know how many people left from Macedonia and Croatia, from the

13 area.

14 Q. We'll come back to that slightly later. Let me take a different

15 approach now. Did you hear that in May 1992 people were being burned

16 alive in their homes, in the Muslim villages around Skelani?

17 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, might I just said that one

18 of the previous questions that learned counsel asked might have been too

19 general. She was talking about the Muslims, and I didn't know whether

20 she was locating the Muslims, particularly, in this video, from the towns

21 in this video, or was the witness referring to the Muslims from Skelani.

22 I think that might have caused a bit of confusion.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the light of what has just been pointed

24 out by Madam Sellers, would you like to put your question again, please,

25 Madam Vidovic?

1 And, witness, have you understood the point made by Madam

2 Sellers?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Would you please be kind enough to put the

5 question again, please.

6 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Gligic, is it your testimony that the Muslim men from the

8 villages around Skelani left their homes of their own free will?

9 A. This is my position in relation to Skelani, or rather, what used

10 to be Skelani municipality at the time: All the Muslims living in the

11 territory of the former local commune and the future municipality were

12 perfectly fine. There were people who were too scared to go to Serbia,

13 but about 70 per cent of the people in Skelani - I'll give you the exact

14 families who crossed eventually, if that's what it takes - people left

15 for Macedonia and Serbia.

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 Q. I will ask you the following question: Did you hear that in May

18 1992, in the Muslim villages mentioned in the video, that you pointed out

19 on the map yesterday, people were burned alive in their own homes?

20 A. Can you please repeat the question.

21 Q. Were the Muslims from the Muslim villages referred to in the

22 video, such as, for example, Trubari, Radovcici, Tokoljaci, burned alive

23 by Serbs in their own homes?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. There are comments being made in the footage about attacks from

1 Jezero, more specifically, shelling from Jezero. Yesterday, you

2 repeatedly referred to Jezero. It is true, isn't it, that the artillery

3 of the Skelani Battalion was positioned at Jezero?

4 A. I only know that the Independent Battalion held the line at

5 Jezero. As for all the Muslim villages near Jezero, that means those

6 Muslim villages were not full, they were empty. How else could those

7 people at Jezero have been holding the line if they'd had Muslims behind

8 their backs?

9 Q. This doesn't really answer my question, does it? I asked you

10 about artillery, artillery positioned at Jezero in August 1992 through to

11 the end of 1992.

12 A. This is something that I'm not familiar with. I was not at

13 Jezero. I was not a military conscript.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to

15 my next question, can this video please be assigned a number.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly. The number, Mr. Registrar?

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the video clip gets the exhibit

18 number D177.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And the transcript?

20 THE REGISTRAR: And the transcript gets the exhibit number

21 D177.1, and the English translation gets the number D177.1E.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sellers.

23 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, the Prosecution would like to put on

24 the record that the transcript or the voices that we have heard and seen

25 on the video do not necessarily go to the truth of their statement.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course.

2 MS. SELLERS: They just go to the fact that they were said by

3 those people. Thank you.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to stress that in the least. The

5 video shows what it shows, but it doesn't prove that people were burnt

6 alive, for example, or that things happened when they are supposed to be

7 happening, except what we see directly on the video, all right?

8 Yes.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

10 please, and place on the ELMO an excerpt from the report by the Helsinki

11 Watch, War Crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in August 1992. The first

12 two pages are the cover page, and a page showing that this is an issue of

13 a report dating from 1992. Could the pages 60 and 61 of the Helsinki

14 Watch report be shown to the witness. They refer to Skelani, the

15 municipality of Srebrenica.

16 Just to inform the witness, Helsinki Watch is a non-governmental

17 organisation for the protection of human rights.

18 Q. Mr. Gligic --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Refrain from explaining to the witness what

20 Helsinki Watch, or who is behind this report. Just go to the part of the

21 report that you're interested in and put the question to him, all right?

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. I will quote to you two passages. The first one is on page 60,

24 and I will quote it to you:

25 "According to eyewitnesses interviewed by Helsinki Watch

1 representatives, men in the village of Skelani were summarily executed

2 after the village fell to Serbian forces on May 7th. Vahida, Tima, and

3 Malida Salimovic were married to three brothers, Asim, age 42, Kemo, age

4 31, and Rizo, age 27, and had a total of seven children. According to

5 each of the three women, Serbs in the area declared Skelani to be a

6 Serbian village on May 1st. On the same day, the Serbs demanded that all

7 Muslims relinquish any arms in their possession by 300 p.m. that afternoon

8 or risk being attacked. The Muslims complied and relinquished any guns,

9 mostly hunting rifles, in their possession."

10 I will go right on to the second quotation from page 61, and I

11 will ask questions of you in relation to this:

12 "According to independent Serbian press reports, after the fall

13 of Skelani, 550 Muslims, mostly women, children, and elderly persons, were

14 expelled from the village and taken to the Serbian border. Once they

15 crossed 50 metres of the bridge into Serbia, Serbian authorities refused

16 to grant them entry. Rather, when the refugees got to the Serbian side,

17 the authorities turned them back into Bosnia and told them to go home.

18 When the refugees turned back over the bridge, they were met by members of

19 Bosnia's Serbian armed forces. They told the refugees that Skelani was

20 not a Serbian village, and that they had no claim to it. Negotiations

21 lasted from 500 p.m. to 1000 p.m., and finally it was decided that some of

22 the refugees would be taken to Macedonia via Serbia."

23 My question to you, Mr. Gligic, is the following one: You know

24 that there were expulsions and murders taking place in Skelani, don't

25 you?

1 A. There was no such thing taking place in Skelani.

2 Q. Did you know Asim, Kemo, and Rizo Salimovic from the Skelani

3 hamlet of Resagici?

4 A. All the villages around Skelani, for all those people, the Skelani

5 authorities had organised buses and people were transported. Not a single

6 refugee went to Serbia and was turned back the same day. That's not true.

7 Women and children that left, left for Macedonia and Croatia, and after

8 the war, they were returning to Tuzla and then on to Srebrenica.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question was:

10 Q. "Did you know Asim, Kemo, and Rizo Salimovic from the Skelani

11 hamlet of Resagici?"

12 A. I don't remember if they were in Resagici at the time. I knew

13 them, but I claim to you that people, women and children, whoever wanted

14 to go to Serbia, went to the Red Cross and were then transported by buses

15 elsewhere.

16 Q. Mr. Gligic, do you know what the fate was of the people who I

17 mentioned to you?

18 A. I've already answered that question.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before I move on to my next

20 question, could these reports from the Helsinki Watch be assigned a

21 number, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be Defence Exhibit 178; correct?

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Gligic, yesterday, you took an oath to tell the truth only

2 before this Tribunal. In your 2000 statement, you said, and yesterday in

3 answering my question, you said that the murders in Skelani started on

4 the 9th of May, 1992, on account of those two incidents, as a result of

5 which there were some Serb victims. But that's far from the truth, is it

6 not?

7 A. I claim to you, and it will be easy for you to verify the

8 information, the first victims in the municipality of Srebrenica and in

9 the area of Skelani are Danilo Petrovic and the Simic family. The

10 information is well known throughout the world. We know who got killed

11 and who killed them. I only know that this was the cause of a bloody war

12 that ensued.

13 Q. Mr. Gligic, I'm putting it to you that you knew of the events

14 described by the Helsinki Watch, and you knew about them because you were

15 personally involved in the persecutions and massacres.

16 A. That's not true. Those who returned to Skelani, there's maybe

17 100 of them now, you can double-check with them, you can inquire after me

18 and my background, and you will find out that I was always an honourable

19 neighbour. And I am still a friend of theirs.

20 Q. Mr. Gligic, please answer my questions. I'm putting it to you

21 that in May, that is, in April, May and June, you were not a driver of

22 the ambulance, as you have claimed, but that your role in these events

23 was a very significant one.

24 A. What you're saying is not true.

25 Q. You were the person selecting people on the bridge across the

1 Drina between Skelani and Serbia, the way that the Helsinki Watch

2 described.

3 A. That's not true. I lived with those people and I helped those

4 people. They did not place their trust in the Crisis Staff. And I

5 personally went to the village of Salihovici and Skelani unarmed. And

6 all those people crossed the bridge and are still alive to document this.

7 The Musici family, who were my neighbours for 50 years, Salihovici,

8 Hasanovici, and others, all these people live in Skelani today. There

9 are about 100 families. And all these people can testify as to my

10 character.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I will ask you about very specific events and issues. On the 7th

15 of May, you were the one who supervised the entire operation of screening,

16 selecting people on the bridge. Please answer yes or no.

17 A. No.

18 Q. On that bridge, on the 7th of May, 1992, among others, three

19 Bosnian Muslims were arrested; a former police officer of the Srebrenica

20 police station, Mr. Nedzad Pribicevac, the underaged Mehmed Begovic, and

21 Alagic. You knew these people, and they knew you, didn't they?

22 A. I don't know if they knew me. I did not see these people at the

23 SUP. They didn't work there. I knew who worked at the SUP Skelani, and

24 I'm referring to the police officers there.

25 Q. Mr. Gligic, you grew up together with Mr. Nedzad Pribicevic?

1 A. Yes, I did. You said he was a police officer.

2 Q. I asked whether you knew him. Yes, he was a police officer. But

3 my question was: Did you know Nedzad Pribicevic?

4 A. Nedzad was not a police officer, and yes, I know him.

5 Q. Let me ask you this: When they were arrested, they asked that you

6 come, and you were the person who decided their fate. You ordered two

7 soldiers to take those people to the police station. In actual fact, two

8 of them, Mr. Nedzad Pribicevic and Nusret Malagic, were taken to be shot.

9 A. That's not true. The Crisis Staff informed some people - I don't

10 know who - to go to that village. I went to the village and talked to

11 Sabrija Salihovic, the teacher there, and his wife and his family, and

12 all the other Muslim who were there. Of course, these people were

13 afraid. When I got there, I provided guarantees to these people. They

14 could have shot me if I was to be blamed for anything. I was unarmed, but

15 they had arms.

16 Q. I haven't finished.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: You've still not answered the part of the question

18 in which you were asked whether, when Nedzad Pribicevic and Nusret

19 Malagic, when these people were being arrested, they asked that you come.

20 Let's take it bit by bit. When these persons that you have mentioned

21 before, Nedzad Pribicevac, Andric Mehmed something, Alagic, is it true

22 that you were asked to be present? Let's take it bit by bit. Please

23 answer yes or no. Are you aware that these persons were arrested?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those persons were not arrested.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you know whether two of them, in particular,

1 Nedzad Pribicevic and Nusret Malagic, were transferred to the police

2 station on that occasion?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. All those Muslims --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Just these two, please. Nedzad Pribicevic and

5 Nusret Malagic, are you aware of their transfer to the police station on

6 that day?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware that at some point in time, these two

9 persons, Nedzad Pribicevic and Nusret Malagic, were taken to be shot?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the sake of the

13 transcript, these were Nedzad Ibisevic and Nusret Malagic, they were taken

14 to be shot.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So I, again, repeat all the questions to

16 you, without the need of reading them again. But when I said Nedzad

17 Pribicevic, I meant Nedzad Ibisevic, and when I said Nusret Malagic,

18 indeed, I meant Nusret Malagic. Are you aware that these persons were

19 arrested on that day?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And they were taken to the police station?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And that they were then taken to be shot?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware that they were, indeed, shot, killed?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Are you aware -- do you know if Nedzad

3 Ibisevic is still alive?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And the same question with regard to Nusret Malagic.

6 Are you aware -- do you know if Nusret Malagic is still alive?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that Nusret Malagic is

8 alive. He has a nickname, Kuljo. He's a tall man, very tall, blonde.

9 And I know that he's alive. He did show up in Skelani afterwards, but I

10 don't know where he was coming from, whether it was Tuzla or thereabouts.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Earlier on, you also said that you disagreed with

12 Madam Vidovic that Nedzad Ibisevic was a police officer. If he was not a

13 police officer, do you know what he was, what was his occupation at the

14 time?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we are talking about one and the

16 same man, this man worked in Serbia for the Crni Vrh company, dealing with

17 wood processing.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And you grew up with this same person?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

21 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just to clarify this

23 matter.

24 Q. It is true, is it not, and you are very well aware of this, that

25 Nusret Malagic was shot on that occasion, and Nedzad Ibisevic survived the

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1 firing squad. He was wounded but he survived.

2 A. That's not true.

3 Q. Very well. Mr. Gligic, you knew Omer Mehic's family from Skelani.

4 This man had his own butcher shop in Skelani before the war; isn't that

5 right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On the 13th of May, 1992, you, together with your brother, your

8 twin brother, barged into the Mehic family's house under the pretext that

9 you were searching for weapons.

10 A. That's not true.

11 Q. You found an old lady there, Hava Mehic, and you took her to the

12 police station. And you and your twin brother set her house on fire.

13 A. That's not true. The Mehic family had a house in Skelani and a

14 shop. They have one to this day. And their mother had a separate house

15 in Jovcici. So in total they had three houses. And this hamlet is some 3

16 or 4 kilometres from Skelani, in the direction of Dubrove [phoen], that

17 is, 6 or 7 kilometres in the direction of Dubrove. Their mother brought

18 weapons to the sons that they had in the family.

19 And this particular lady, I escorted her from the bridge, because

20 she arrived in Skelani to the SUP, and she surrendered the weapons. I

21 don't know what she had, but she got a receipt against it. And this lady

22 has a daughter, Nena, she has a daughter, and we are on friendly terms.

23 And she went to her daughter's.

24 Q. Does that mean that you and your twin brother did not, in fact,

25 torch that house?

1 A. That's true. I had been close with that family and on visiting

2 terms for over 30 years. I saw them over two years ago in Sarajevo. They

3 run a huge shop there. They are well off financially. And now they,

4 again, have a shop in Skelani. I'm friends with Omer, with Nurija, with

5 her sons, with the entire family.

6 Q. I'm putting it to you that you are not on friendly terms with

7 those people. But I'll ask you a different question now.

8 A. You can easily check that. I saw Mujo about a month ago.

9 Q. You took part in the persecution, detention, and execution of

10 people from the Muslim hamlet of Resagici. What's more, you were part of

11 the group of people that executed Kemo Salihovic, a name found in the

12 Helsinki Watch report.

13 A. No.

14 Q. You were involved in the arrest and detention of civilians in the

15 community house in Skelani, or community home in Skelani. It is true that

16 you were seen there on a number of occasions, bringing Muslims in, were

17 you not?

18 A. It's true that Muslims were being held in that hall. As to the

19 people who were in that hall, I helped whoever I could and whoever I knew.

20 The hall was full. But people were not being detained there to be

21 mistreated but to make it possible for them to leave for Serbia.

22 I remember a small child, his mother's name is Mihic. I brought a

23 bottle of milk for the child. Now this woman is back in the village of

24 Zabokvica, with her father and husband.

25 Q. As a matter of fact, there were many people who failed to survive

1 the torture that was inflicted on them at the community home in Skelani;

2 isn't that a fact?

3 A. Madam, at the time I had more Muslim friends than Serb friends,

4 and this is something that I'm paying a price for, even today.

5 Q. I asked you something else, though. There were many people who

6 didn't make it, who didn't survive the torture at the community home where

7 you were a frequent guest, were you not?

8 A. Yes, I did go there. I helped people. Those people eventually

9 left for Serbia. Now, as to whether anyone murdered anyone else or

10 tortured anyone else, I don't know anything about that, because I didn't

11 witness any such scenes. But please, if you can find a Muslim who will

12 point his finger at me, saying that I did any of that, do so, if you can.

13 I am here to tell the truth, and all I can tell you about that is

14 that I went there to help those people.

15 Q. On the 1st and 2nd of June, 1992, you were a member of a unit that

16 killed 13 civilians in the village of Joseva. Among these civilians,

17 there was a 13-month-old baby. Isn't that true?

18 A. No.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I now have

20 a different set of questions. Maybe this would be a convenient time to

21 have a break.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We'll have a break of 25 minutes, a

23 25-minute break, starting from now. Thank you. I think -- one moment.

24 I think I better wait for the witness to leave the courtroom first.

25 [The witness stands down]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.25 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I see Mr. Wubben ...

6 MR. WUBBEN: Your Honour, I'd like to update you regarding the

7 next witness. We will schedule that next witness for tomorrow, as we are

8 still on the proofing actions.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's understandable. We have no problems with

10 that.

11 MR. WUBBEN: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic, you may proceed.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am making very slow

14 progress, unfortunately, and I think we will be needing a bit more time

15 with this witness.

16 Q. Mr. Gligic, in your testimony yesterday, and in your statement to

17 the investigators, you dropped the name of Mr. Besim Mandzic. You said

18 he was president of the Srebrenica municipality in the year 2000; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes. This gentleman was a chief in Srebrenica at that period of

21 time.

22 Q. It's about the name, Besim Mandzic. This person was never, in

23 fact, president of the municipality. In order to clarify, the president

24 was Nesib Mandzic.

25 A. Madam, I believe I know full well who he was. He was a neighbour

1 of mine. He was the mayor or the municipality president in Srebrenica at

2 the time. I'm saying after the war.

3 Q. Is this the same person who, on the 11th of July, 1992, was

4 publicly intimidated -- 1995, was publicly intimidated by Ratko Mladic in

5 the presence of DutchBat representatives?

6 A. I don't know if he was intimidated. I know that in Skelani, the

7 distance between his house and mine is up to 200 metres. He has a brother

8 and sister, and I don't know whether they live in Denmark or in Holland.

9 But I do know that a person from Skelani was the president of the

10 municipality at that time.

11 Q. I'm putting it to you that Nesib Mandzic was the president of the

12 municipality. At any rate, in early April 1992, he left Skelani for

13 Tuzla where he remained until July 1992. And there was no way you could

14 have seen him wearing a uniform or carrying a rifle in late April 1992,

15 as you described to the investigators.

16 A. That's not true. I know this person really well. I know he was

17 a representative in Srebrenica, and I know he was in Skelani at the time.

18 He was a highly-positioned SDA official for the Skelani area.

19 Q. Very well. I'll move on to something else now.

20 You stated that Skelani had no military facilities; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, that is still my position.

23 Q. In actual fact, a great number of paramilitary units from Serbia

24 were stationed there right from the beginning of the war, and at least up

25 until the summer of 1992; is that correct?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Is it your submission that Zeljko Raznjatovic's, Arkan's unit,

3 paramilitary unit, was not stationed there?

4 A. Yes, indeed, that's my submission.

5 Q. What about Captain Dragan's unit?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What about Petar Cubilo, Peki's unit?

8 A. No.

9 Q. It's true, isn't it, that a red beret camp was stationed there.

10 These red berets were from Serbia and led by Nikola Pupovac. Isn't that a

11 fact?

12 A. The Red Berets existed and they did indeed have a camp. Whether

13 they were red and whether they were from Bosnia, I really don't know.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just a moment. It only gives some information but

15 not what you asked.

16 The question referred specifically to a Red Beret camp being

17 stationed there, and you say the Red Berets existed, everyone knows this

18 and they did indeed have a camp. Where was this camp?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was not a camp in the

20 proper sense of the word. They had a base. The distance between the SUP

21 and their camp was about 1 kilometre. I know that there was a unit in

22 Sekovici where they had their command.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So when you say "the SUP," you mean the SUP in

24 Skelani?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. From the SUP building, 1

1 kilometre down the Drina, at the far end of Skelani, facing Resagici,

2 they had a base or headquarters. I'm not sure what I should call it.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay, thank you.

4 Madam Vidovic.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Can I

6 have the usher's assistance, please. I would like to show the witness a

7 document. The document is a document of the headquarters of the army of

8 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, administration for OB

9 affairs, dated the 28th of July, 1992.

10 Q. Witness, can you please look at the relevant page of the document,

11 which is page 3, paragraphs 4 and 5. I will read to you what it says.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] May I just inform the Chamber that

13 we only have the first page translated, so that we can show what the

14 document is. This is a very extensive document, and I have tried to ask

15 the CLSS to translate as many documents for us as possible, but on the

16 other hand we were asked by OLAD to only request to have the relevant

17 sections translated when dealing with extensive documents. Therefore, we

18 only have a translation of a section which refers to Skelani.

19 Q. Witness, on page 3, if you can look at paragraphs 4 and 5, which

20 I will now quote to you:

21 "In the area of the Serb municipality of Skelani, a camp of the

22 so-called Red Berets was formed and led by Pupovac Nikola, one of Captain

23 Dragan's students. According to unverified information, this group is

24 preparing for overthrowing and a takeover of power in the Serb

25 municipality of Skelani. Paramilitary formations, led at the outset by

1 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, and subsequently by Captain Dragan, and

2 recently by a person named Peki, stole goods and material property in the

3 value of between 30 and 40 million German marks. For instance, about 10

4 tonnes of silver, between 3 and 4 tonnes of zinc, pharmacy with medicines,

5 and everything was transferred to Serbia."

6 My question to you is: Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, was a

7 highly popular figure among Serbs at the time, was he not? And the same

8 applies to Captain Dragan. You must have known of their presence in

9 Skelani?

10 A. I knew these gentlemen from the media, and I put it to you that

11 they were not in Skelani.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. May we

13 have an exhibit number assigned to this document?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be D179, Defence Exhibit D179.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Skelani had an Independent Battalion on account of the village's

17 importance. Wasn't that the case?

18 A. Skelani had an Independent Battalion whose duty was to defend the

19 village of Skelani.

20 Q. You told us yesterday that the front line of Skelani's defence was

21 near Jezero. Is that still your submission?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Moreover, you, in a statement given to the Prosecutor in July

24 2000, on page 3, paragraph 2 - it is the same in the English version -

25 said, I quote:

1 "However, in September 1992, the headquarters of one battalion of

2 the army of Republika Srpska was stationed or set up in Skelani in order

3 to monitor and coordinate the front line that is more than 54 kilometres

4 long, stretching across the village and around it."

5 That is a statement that you made to the Prosecutors of this

6 Tribunal in the year 2000, isn't it?

7 A. Can you give me the exact date when you said the army of Republika

8 Srpska arrived?

9 Q. I said in September. I can read the passage out to you, or if you

10 want me to, I can show you your statement, Mr. Gligic, if you consider

11 that to be necessary. I said:

12 "However, in September 1992," in September 1992, "the command

13 centre of a Bosnian Serb army battalion set itself up in Skelani in order

14 to monitor and coordinate a front line that extended in and around Skelani

15 over a 54-kilometre radius."

16 A. What I said was that the Independent Battalion was set up at that

17 time. I'm not sure how it was translated into English. When I spoke

18 about the Independent Battalion, I gave the exact names of people who were

19 officers in that battalion.

20 Q. You are saying that the front line did not run through Skelani

21 itself, which is different from what you stated to the investigators.

22 A. Yes. From the beginning of September, there was a TO unit which

23 the citizens set up in order to protect them from the Muslim units. In

24 September, it became the Independent Battalion. Those were people

25 watching their own houses and standing guard, and they were now

1 subordinated to the Independent Battalion. The Independent Battalion at

2 that point in time was subordinated to the corps.

3 Q. Mr. Gligic, can you please follow my question closely and provide

4 answers to my questions only.

5 A. I know that the battalion was stationed at Jezero. That was the

6 line they held. And they formed a semicircle at Jezero, including the

7 Serb villages and Skelani.

8 Q. Thank you. There's no need for you to go through that again,

9 because we've heard that before. The Skelani Battalion was a

10 well-equipped and well-manned unit, was it not?

11 A. It had between 400 and 450 men.

12 Q. My question was: Was this a well-equipped unit, in the military

13 sense of the word?

14 A. Whatever weapons they had were stationed at Jezero and not in

15 Skelani.

16 Q. You told us yesterday that, for two months, you worked with the

17 military section of the Crisis Staff. You knew exactly, didn't you, where

18 the TO of Skelani got their weapons and equipment from?

19 A. My job was not about that. I was not in a position to see any of

20 the battalion's orders or anything like that.

21 Q. But, Mr. Gligic, it's true, isn't it, that the Skelani Battalion

22 got their weapons and equipment from Yugoslavia?

23 A. That's not true. From the beginning of September, the Skelani

24 Battalion formed part of the Drina Corps, and the headquarters, as

25 everyone knows, was in Vlasenica.

1 Q. Is it your testimony that, in late 1992 and up to April 1993, the

2 Skelani Battalion did not receive any weapons from Yugoslavia?

3 A. I lived in Skelani, and I should know. As for manpower, it was

4 made up of men living in Bajina Basta, in Serbia, but who had been born in

5 Skelani. They had left their homes previously; I don't know the reason.

6 They should know. They came back to help their neighbours out, help their

7 families, help their brothers to defend their homes.

8 Q. Mr. Gligic, can you please pay close attention to what my

9 questions are about. I asked you about weapons being received from

10 Yugoslavia. Weapons.

11 A. I'm not familiar with that.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance

13 again, please, to place on the ELMO a document of the Drina Corps

14 command, dated 4th of February, 1993, and sent to the Zvornik Brigade

15 command. The OTP exhibit number or the ERN is 01225623.

16 Q. Witness, can you please have a look. Sir, I'll quote the document

17 to you:

18 "Based on your verbal request, you are to act in the following

19 way: Send an authorised representative of your brigade to Skelani who

20 will, in agreement with the command of the Skelani Independent Battalion,

21 take the following amounts of ammunition from their storage."

22 And then what we see here is 400 mortar shells and 100 bullets.

23 "Upon the completion of the task, inform the corps command about

24 the real quantities taken over."

25 This is a document, Mr. Gligic, that the Drina Corps command sent

1 to the Zvornik Brigade command. Is it true -- is it not true that there

2 were other units in the same period that were receiving their weapons from

3 the Skelani Battalion? Is this something that you're aware of?

4 A. As for the command, I'm not aware of anything in relation to that.

5 What I saw in Skelani was that there were a great number of

6 volunteers there from Bajina Basta. How many exactly, I really don't

7 know, but they were around. And they came to defend their homes. And

8 they went to Jezero. What exactly it was that they were doing, I really

9 don't know.

10 As for this document, I have nothing to do with this. This is

11 about the corps, this is about the command, this is about generals, if you

12 ask me. I was a simple driver. I have nothing to do with this, and I can

13 hardly understand a document like this.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I told you yesterday when we started, please answer

15 the question, the whole question, and nothing but the question. I notice

16 that as we go along, you are answering everything except the question.

17 And we can't go on like this. You'll be here forever.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I move on to a

19 different question --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, this will be --

21 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- this will be Defence Exhibit D180. Thank you.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Gligic, you told us yesterday that you resided in the vicinity

25 of the police station. Do you agree with me that the police staff in

1 Skelani were numerous and well-armed?

2 A. No.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

4 please. I'd like to place on the ELMO a document by the Territorial

5 Defence of the Serbian municipality of Skelani, number 28-21, dated 26 May

6 1992. This is a request for materiel and technical equipment, addressed

7 to the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of the Serb people of BiH,

8 for them in Sarajevo to be handed over the materiel and technical

9 equipment for Skelani.

10 Q. Mr. Gligic, you have the document before you. Please look at the

11 items contained in the request. They ask for 100 camouflage uniforms, 20

12 pieces of twill uniforms, and, among other things, under item 6, 100

13 automatic rifles, 10 sub-machine-guns. And the second last sentence goes

14 as follows:

15 "Please forward this fax to the federal SUP."

16 My question to you, Mr. Gligic, is as follows: Even the police

17 force in Skelani received their equipment from Yugoslavia; isn't that

18 right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Gligic, that this request relates to a large

21 quantity of equipment and weapons for such a small police station such as

22 the one in Skelani?

23 A. I do not.

24 Q. By saying no, what did you exactly mean? That Skelani is not a

25 small place or --

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1 A. No. Skelani is a small village, and I know exactly how many

2 police officers there were in Skelani.

3 Q. Can you tell us how many police officers there were in Skelani?

4 A. The police officers working for the SUP in Skelani, I can give you

5 their names.

6 Q. Tell us the number.

7 A. Some ten police officers.

8 Q. Can you tell us how many reserve police officers were there?

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You're jumping one on the other without the least

10 hesitation. Please slow down and allow an interval of time between

11 question and answer, because if we -- we can't go on like this. We can't

12 go on like this.

13 Yes, Madam Vidovic.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Can you tell us how many reserve police officers were there in

16 Skelani?

17 A. There were police officers for the reserve forces, but I don't

18 know how many.

19 Q. As a member of the Skelani Battalion, you were well-equipped, you

20 were on a payroll; isn't that right?

21 A. This was no salary, it was just a payment used by us for

22 maintaining personal hygiene. And I received it sometimes from the SUP,

23 sometimes from the battalion, and sometimes from the Crisis Staff. And

24 not only I, but all those who were performing this work obligation, had

25 duties to attend to.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You didn't answer the other part of the question,

2 which was whether you were well-equipped, as a member of the Skelani

3 Battalion. Were you well-equipped?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Part of the command was stationed in

5 Skelani, and I was stationed there, and part of the battalion was

6 positioned at Jezero.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know what has been -- how my question has

8 been translated to you. My question was a very simple one: As a member

9 of the Skelani Battalion, were you well-equipped? It's not where you were

10 stationed but how you were equipped, whether you were well-equipped or

11 not.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Are you referring to

13 myself personally?

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, of course.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not. I had a pistol that

16 I had from before the war, and I had a rifle that I was unable to use

17 because I was in the car. But I did sign for a rifle.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Judge Eser.

19 JUDGE ESER: I just wanted, for the benefit of clarification, to

20 make sure on what time we are talking. Now, in the last ten minutes, we

21 had a document dealing with February 1993, we have been talking about

22 April, May, 1992, and the Independent Battalion, I remember -- I think it

23 was founded in September. Now, these are three different periods, and if

24 questions are asked with regard with the amount of weapons and so on, I

25 think it would be worthwhile to know which period you are talking about.

1 Thank you.

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As regards the weapons of the

3 police, the document is dated the 26th of May, 1992, and the document

4 describes the level of equipment that the police had in the course of

5 1992. As for the Skelani Battalion, we were referring to the period since

6 its establishment in September 1992, and I mentioned April 1993.

7 So that's the period in between.

8 JUDGE ESER: However --

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] However, Your Honours, I will do my

10 best to date my questions.

11 JUDGE ESER: Sorry. Just to make sure, only for clarification.

12 The document of May 26th, 1992, speaks of a request, if there was a

13 request. So does that necessarily mean that the weapons, they have been

14 received in fact? So I think we should distinguish between requests and

15 the factual state of weaponry at a certain time. Only to clarify the

16 situation.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did emphasise that

19 it was a request for materiel and technical equipment, and I asked the

20 witness whether it was unusual for such a small settlement as Skelani to

21 be asking for such large quantities of weapons. That was the drift of my

22 question. I was not inquiring after whether the weapons were delivered or

23 not. But I'm sure that we will have a great many pieces of evidence to

24 show through this witness.

25 Q. Tell us, Mr. Gligic, since the establishment of the Skelani

1 Battalion, as you stated that it was in September 1992, so from that

2 period onwards, your military superior officers received their salaries

3 directly from Belgrade. Are you aware of this?

4 A. No.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

6 please. I would like to place a document on the ELMO, and I would like

7 the witness to be shown the document. It's a document by the command of

8 the Drina Corps, dated 23 November 1992. The document bears the number

9 01334728, and is entitled "Regulation of Settlements and Payments to

10 Members of the Republika Srpska Army." The document was delivered to the

11 Podrinje Light Brigade, Zvornik Light Brigade, Birca Infantry Brigade,

12 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, Skelani Independent Battalion, and the

13 Romanija Motorised Brigade.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime, Madam Vidovic, do you intend to

15 tender the previous documents or document?

16 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: So the previous document, which was referred to the

20 witness in the previous questions, is being tendered and admitted and

21 marked as Defence Exhibit D181.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Gligic, please take a look at the document. I will quote from

24 it.

25 "Commissioned officers and non-commissioned officers and the staff

1 working on contract for the Republika Srpska army, who met on the 19th of

2 May, 1992, in relation to these people, they will continue receiving

3 payments deposited on their accounts. For the staff serving the army and

4 their families in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, their payments,

5 based on cheques, will be collected by authorised officials of the

6 Republika Srpska army at the Belgrade postal savings account in the

7 following manner..."

8 And what follows is a detailed instruction as to how these

9 personal incomes can be withdrawn. I will put a very specific question to

10 you, Mr. Gligic: Do you know whether some members of the Skelani

11 Battalion received their salaries from Belgrade?

12 A. I don't.

13 Q. Yesterday you mentioned Rajko Kuljanin and Bosko Vukovic as the

14 commanding officers. These were professional officers of the former JNA;

15 that's right, isn't it?

16 A. No. Mr. Bosko Vukovic, from the village of Toplice, worked in the

17 military department in Srebrenica before the war. He was an official

18 there. Where Vukovic worked, I'm not sure. I think he was a colonel or a

19 lieutenant colonel. And Mr. Vukovic was a resident of my village.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, if he wasn't a member of the former JNA, what

21 was he a member of? Was he a member of the former JNA, of the army of

22 Yugoslavia before the disintegration of ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Mr. Vukovic worked as a

24 civilian for the military department in Srebrenica before the war, so he

25 was a civilian. When the war broke out, he was a reserve -- a member of

1 the reserve forces and had the rank of a captain, I believe. And that's

2 how he became a member of the battalion.

3 Mr. Kuljanin may have been a professional soldier. I don't know

4 where he hailed from. I know his name was Rajko Kuljanin. I know that he

5 came from the corps in Vlasenica.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. So you're not aware of the fact that Rajko Kuljanin came from

9 Serbia.

10 A. No, I'm not.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Can this document please

12 be assigned an exhibit number?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be D182, Defence Exhibit D182.

14 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In actual fact, in January 1993, in Skelani, there was a large

16 army stationed there; isn't that right?

17 A. In January, in Skelani, that's to say, following the attack on the

18 16th, the army started arriving from the corps on the 18th, 19th and

19 onwards.

20 Q. I'm putting it to you, Mr. Gligic, that the army was stationed

21 there throughout January 1993, and I mean in Skelani, and that these were

22 not just men from Skelani and the surrounding villages who formed part of

23 the Skelani Battalion.

24 A. I said that it was on the 18th or 19th of January, 1993, that

25 forces from the corps were deployed there, because the battalion was

1 asking for help.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 I will ask you to answer some of my questions. It is true, is it

9 not, that in the sector of Skelani, in the area of Skelani, there was the

10 command headquarters of General Mile Mrksic in May 1993?

11 A. No.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: In January 1993.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. It is true that the Guards Brigade of the Yugoslav army was

15 stationed there, is it not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The Parachute Brigade of the Yugoslav army?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that the 72nd Airborne Assault Brigade

20 from Pancevo was deployed there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. I'm putting it to you that parts of the Drina division were also

23 stationed in Skelani.

24 A. I don't think I've understood your question. Where did they come

25 from? The Drina division, where do they come from? I don't understand

1 the question.

2 Q. Have you heard of the existence of the Drina division?

3 A. I've heard of its existence, but it was not present in Skelani.

4 Q. Well, that's what you say. Very well. You must have been aware

5 of the fact that some units belonging to the Uzice Corps had entered

6 Skelani prior to the events in mid-January 1993 in Skelani?

7 A. When you say "the Uzice Corps," Bajina Basta comes under the Uzice

8 Corps territory. And after the attack on the 16th of January, the

9 residents of Bajina Basta, of their own will, for patriotic reasons,

10 crossed the Drina River. But there must be records with the battalion in

11 Bajina Basta there, because nobody was able to cross over, because if one

12 wanted to enter into or leave Bajina Basta, one had to go through a police

13 checkpoint. Whoever wanted to join the war in Skelani, to defend the Serb

14 people there, had to report to those people there.

15 Q. My question, however, was the following: Did you know that the

16 units of the Uzice Corps were there prior to the attack on Skelani, what

17 you call the attack on Skelani, that the 16th of January; that they had

18 entered Skelani before that?

19 A. No, I don't.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may this document

21 please be assigned a number.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This document is being tendered and received

23 and marked as Defence Exhibit D183.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 So let's move.

9 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

10 please. I would like to show the witness document 01857913. It's a

11 document of the Srebrenica municipality War Presidency, dated the 17th of

12 January, 1993. It's a protest sent to the presidency of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. This document will hopefully shed light on the

14 previous document along the line suggested by my learned colleague, Ms.

15 Sellers.

16 Q. Witness, can you please have a look at this document. I will

17 quote the relevant section. This is in relation to a protest sent by the

18 Srebrenica municipality War Presidency to the presidency of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Paragraph 2, the third and fourth paragraphs, the

20 beginning of the fourth paragraph:

21 "The artillery attacks have been intensified since January 1st

22 this year, and the former Yugoslav army aviation carries out bombardment

23 of the Srebrenica region every day, and aircraft take off from the airport

24 of Ponica [phoen] near Uzice. The world public knows very little about

25 this. In the night between January 15th and 16th this year, the Uzice

1 Corps crossed the bridge in Skelani, and from Bajina Basta, crossed with

2 12 tanks, seven armed personnel carriers, and a number of trucks, and

3 carried out an attack on the territory of the defenders. From that

4 moment, fierce fighting has been going on, and they -- and it is still

5 going on as we are sending this report. In the above-mentioned fighting,

6 the aggressor even uses their aviation, and as a result, over 100

7 civilians have been killed. The advance of the aggressor has been stopped,

8 but fresh forces are being drawn from Serbia and introduced into Basil,"

9 and so on and so forth.

10 Mr. Gligic, is it not true that the attacks against the remaining

11 Muslim settlements of the Srebrenica enclave, including Srebrenica itself,

12 started to mount, from the direction of Skelani, from the beginning of

13 January 1993?

14 A. No, this is not true.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment. Do you want to give this document

16 a number?

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be D184.

19 Now let's go into private session for a while, please.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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11 [Open session]

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I asked you, Mr. Gligic, if it was true that the attacks against

15 the remaining Muslim settlements of the Srebrenica enclave, including

16 Srebrenica itself, intensified from the direction of Skelani, from early

17 January 1993 on.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Is it not true that there was intense shelling from the areas of

20 Jezero and Bajina Basta in the direction of Srebrenica?

21 A. I don't know this.

22 Q. You had to notice a presence of tanks and APCs in Skelani during

23 the first half of January 1993.

24 A. But I didn't.

25 Q. I will now move on to what happened on the 16th of January, 1993,

1 or rather, the attack. My question is: What happened on the 16th of

2 January was an attempt by the Muslim forces to foil horrible attacks

3 against the civilian population of Srebrenica from the direction of

4 Skelani, midway through January 1993, was it not?

5 A. No.

6 Q. In your testimony, you described the attackers on the 16th of

7 January, 1993, and how they were firing at everything that moved across

8 the bridge to Serbia.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It is true, in fact, isn't it, that at the time, as well as in

11 previous days, forces were being infiltrated from Serbia across that

12 bridge with tanks and APCs and soldiers?

13 A. No, that's not true.

14 Q. You described that the attackers were firing towards your house

15 and the police station; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. The whole of Skelani was attacked, the entire town.

17 Q. It's true, isn't it, that near the police station is where the

18 command post of the Skelani Battalion was positioned?

19 A. Part of the command post. But the command itself, the

20 headquarters, was at Jezero.

21 Q. But you do agree that part of the command was there, after all.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It is also true, isn't it, that the police station itself was a

24 stronghold with many armed men in it, and that they were, in fact,

25 returning fire when the attack came?

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1 A. No.

2 Q. Is it your testimony that no one was firing at the attackers from

3 the police station?

4 A. I remember clearly the day of the attack at Skelani. I'll never

5 forget it. At the time, the only people left in Skelani were women,

6 children, and small babies.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can we please caution

8 the witness to answer my questions.

9 Q. Was there any firing from the police station? Was anyone firing

10 at the attackers from the police station?

11 A. I don't know.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You personally, your brother, and a great number of other fighters

15 were, in fact, returning fire and firing on the attackers from your

16 positions at the time.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Actually, there was shooting on all sides. There was crossfire

19 being exchanged, wasn't there?

20 A. No.

21 Q. The forces from Serbia joined the fighting very soon, and the

22 Muslims were quickly repelled; isn't that correct?

23 A. No. The attack started at 5.30, and firing by the Muslim forces

24 stopped at about 1100 hours.

25 Q. You did say that, at one point in time, the shooting stopped and

1 you saw the attackers looting, did you not?

2 A. Yes. Above our houses, in Skelani.

3 Q. Among them, there were plenty of civilians, women and children;

4 that's true, isn't it?

5 A. No, not women and not children. Women and civilians taking

6 things, mounting things on cattle and then driving their cattle on.

7 Q. Very well. You told us yesterday that 57 persons were killed in

8 Skelani during the attack.

9 A. No, not persons. Women, children, and civilians, that's what I

10 said.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown his

13 own statement, dated 2000.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clear this, because there seems to be a

16 question. The question was: You told us yesterday that 57 persons were

17 killed in Skelani during the attack, and then somehow the transcript that

18 we have is: "No, not persons. Women, children, and civilians, that's

19 what I said." But women are civilians and children are civilians, no? So

20 can you clear this up for us? Why not persons? Because women are persons

21 just the same. Can you explain?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, what I'm saying is they are

23 human beings. Maybe I did not express myself very clearly.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: It could be. If you didn't, could you please

25 express yourself better now.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I'm telling you, on that day,

2 human beings were killed, women, children, and men, all of them human

3 beings. All of them were killed during the attack against Skelani.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But were they civilians or not civilians? Or were

5 they mixed?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. For the most part, what I'm

7 trying to say is that 90 per cent or higher, women and children,

8 handicapped people who were not fit for military service.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move. Thank you.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, can you please look at your own statement from the year

12 2000, on page 12, and then continue on page 13 of the B/C/S. In the

13 English, it's all on page 12. You state that, on the 17th of January,

14 1992, you helped to identify 30 bodies. Could you please look at that

15 part of your statement. Please have a look at the list you provided. You

16 said you helped identify these persons. Did you know these persons

17 personally?

18 A. Ivanka Popovic, Branko Jakovljevic, Dimitrijevic --

19 Q. No, no, no, these are not the persons I mean. If you could look

20 at the very beginning, Milorad Rakic, the first list on that page.

21 A. Milorad Rakic is from Cosici. Damjan Maksimovic and Zeljko

22 Pavlovic, Vidosava Trifunovic --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. The question was a simple one. We

24 don't need to go through the list one by one. Look at it, please. This

25 should be, according to what it says here, a list that you gave to the

1 Office of the Prosecution. You're being asked to look at it and to

2 confirm to us that you knew these persons, these 20 individuals,

3 personally.

4 Just answer yes or no. If you didn't, it doesn't matter. It's

5 not going to change much.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. So your next question.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. You knew their year of birth?

10 A. I didn't know when they were born, but I know these people. We

11 lived together. I can't know personal information in relation to each and

12 every one of these individuals, when they were born.

13 Q. But you were the one who provided this information to the OTP;

14 isn't that the case?

15 A. Yes, but I was questioning in Skelani for about ten days, and this

16 is the sort of information that you can go to Kapela for. Even now you

17 can go to the morgue, go to the cemetery, where the people were buried,

18 and take this information.

19 Q. You said that you knew Milorad Rakic.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You knew Milena Stevanovic?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: He's already said that he knew them all, Madam

23 Vidovic.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. I'm putting it to you that Milorad Rakic, Milena Stevanovic,

1 Radosava Rakic, that none of the persons bearing these names lived in the

2 territory of the municipality of Srebrenica, Bratunac, or the territory of

3 Skelani, in 1991.

4 A. I don't know where they lived or where they live. I know that

5 these people got killed in Skelani, and I know the villages they hail

6 from, for all of them.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I am submitting an

8 excerpt from the census of Bosnia and Herzegovina from April 1991 for the

9 municipalities of Bratunac, Han Pijesak, Rogatica, Srebrenica, and Zepa,

10 and the excerpt is accompanied by an official letter from the Federal

11 Institute of Statistics. And there the names and surnames of all the

12 Stevanovics and Rakics is contained. Milorad Rakic, Radosava Rakic, and

13 Milena Stevanovic did not exist in the territories of the municipalities

14 of Srebrenica and Bratunac in 1991. Could these excerpts please be

15 assigned an exhibit number, and then I will ...

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. These are being given -- this document is

17 being given exhibit number -- Defence Exhibit D184. Could you take us

18 straight to the pages? They are not numbered.

19 [Trial Chamber and the registrar confer]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This will be D185, sorry. My apologies to

21 you.

22 All right. In any case, you've made the submission. This will be

23 D185, and we'll find it.

24 Yes, let's move.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Moreover, Mr. Gligic, none of these persons is entered into the

2 registry of debts.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And can I have the usher's

4 assistance to place a letter from the municipality of Srebrenica on the

5 ELMO from a general administration office in Skelani, January 17th, 2005.

6 The letter is signed by the notary, and enclosed is my request to the

7 Ministry of Security to deliver the names of several persons from Skelani.

8 Could we please take a look at the letter.

9 MS. SELLERS: Excuse me, Your Honour, before learned counsel

10 proceeds, the document we've now identified as D185, I don't believe that

11 she's asked the witness a question about it. I believe she herself --

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, and I would have stopped her if she had asked

13 him a question on it, because --

14 MS. SELLERS: And I also just want to state that I think Mr.

15 Gligic's testimony was that he didn't know where they were in 1991, but

16 that he knew the villages they originally came from. So I don't know

17 whether we're going to clarify that with a question in relationship to

18 this document, or the relevance that the document now has to --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's enough -- enough for us.

20 Yes. Now, this document, this is being given D186.

21 Yes, let's proceed.

22 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Could you please take a look at the letter. Under item 1, there

24 reads "Milorad Rakic," and the municipality says that in the Skelani

25 registry records, there are no data concerning his death. Milena

1 Stevanovic, under item 6, rather, Milena Stevanovic, under item 2, and

2 Radisava Rakic, under item 6, no data in the register of debts in Skelani.

3 I will move on to a different matter now. Are you quite sure,

4 sir, that Milorad Rakic was killed on that day in Skelani?

5 A. When talking about names, I can tell you that there's nobody in

6 the world who could memorise all these names. I know that there were

7 people from Cosici, from Skelani. So I knew these people. Now, where

8 they lived, where they were registered, I'm not going into these matters,

9 nor am I aware of them. It reads here: "Todorovic Gordana." She was

10 born in Skelani and married in Srebrenica. And she moved to Skelani, and

11 then got killed in Skelani.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need all these details.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My questions will be specific.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Just to make one thing clear. You were not asked to

15 identify these bodies in Skelani, you were asked to identify these bodies

16 in Bajina Basta, no?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] How shall I put this? Most of the

18 people living in Skelani have dual citizenship, like, for instance, myself

19 --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Please answer the question. When you saw these dead

21 bodies, did you see them in Skelani, when you were asked to identify them,

22 or did you see them in the morgue in Bajina Basta?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We transported all the corpses to

24 the Bajina Basta morgue, because we did not have a morgue in Skelani. And

25 the people who were authorised to register these bodies, they did so in

1 Bajina Basta.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. We are there. Let's move.

3 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Gligic, you knew Rosa Nedic, didn't you?

5 A. What was her name again?

6 Q. Rosa Nedic. Her name is on the list.

7 A. Nedzic? That's the Grizevici [phoen] village.

8 Q. You knew when she was born, didn't you?

9 A. No, I didn't.

10 Q. I'm putting it to you, Mr. Gligic, that you provided incorrect

11 information in relation to these persons. I'm putting it to you that

12 Rakic Milorad died at least 20 days -- 20 years before the start of the

13 war. Do you agree with me?

14 A. I don't.

15 Q. His youngest child was born in 1936.

16 A. I'm not aware of this.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could this letter be

18 assigned an exhibit number, unless it already has one.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

20 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. May I just ask you --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know why we gave it a number already, but it

23 will be D186, in any case. D186.

24 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness to

25 look at the name Blagomir Mitrovic, who was born in 1943 -- Blagomir

1 Nikolic, born in 1943.

2 Q. Are you quite sure, Mr. Gligic, that this person got killed in

3 Skelani, and that he was among the dead, be it in Srebrenica, be it in

4 Bajina Basta?

5 A. I don't know.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you mean? What do you mean, you don't know?

7 If you're stating to the Office of the Prosecutor in your statement that,

8 on the 17th of January, in the medical centre in Bajina Basta, you saw a

9 body and you identified him as being -- belonging to that of Blagomir

10 Nikolic, how come you come here now and tell us that you don't know? You

11 either recognised -- you either recognised that body or you didn't.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bodies that we transported to

13 the morgue, I did not witness their deaths. I only know that I took them

14 over there. And these lists were drawn up on the basis of the data

15 provided at the health centre, or rather, at the morgue.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But you stated to the Office of the

17 Prosecutor, and you also stated earlier on today, that the list of 20

18 persons that you see here on page 12 of your statement, or whichever page

19 it is in your own language, you identified as dead bodies on that

20 occasion, and that you knew them all personally. So I can't understand

21 how you could possibly come here and explain to us that -- in one minute,

22 you're stating that you recognise Blagomir Nikolic, the dead body of

23 Blagomir Nikolic, and now you're telling us that you don't know. I mean,

24 you either recognised him or you -- you recognised that dead body or you

25 didn't recognise that body.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time of death of these

2 people, I knew the villages they originated from and I knew their names,

3 and I drove them over to the morgue.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: The question is a very simple one: It's being put

5 to you that perhaps you're wrong when you identified a body belonging to

6 Blagomir Nikolic. But you did state to the Prosecution that, on the 17th

7 of January, you identified a dead body as belonging to Blagomir Nikolic.

8 Did you identify a dead body as belonging to Blagomir Nikolic, or didn't

9 you?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, Your Honour, 12

11 years have elapsed since. I'm simply saying, and there's evidence to

12 prove that, that I transported these dead bodies. But this is -- this

13 took place a long time ago, and I really wouldn't be able to tell you

14 their names now.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, but when you made a statement to the

16 Prosecution, you did not hesitate at all in giving a whole list of 20

17 persons who are dead, another list of 10 persons who were injured, and

18 further, other lists that we have in the statement. Was this list

19 invented by the officer from the Office of the Prosecutor -- investigator

20 from the Office of the Prosecutor, or was it a list that you yourself

21 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Prosecution asked me to

23 provide information in the process of my interview, I went to the morgue

24 in Bajina Basta and they have records there, dated records, therefore,

25 containing dates when I was transporting dead bodies there. And that was

1 the list that I delivered to the gentleman.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That is understandable. But in your

3 statement, you say: "I think it was on the afternoon of the 17th of

4 January, 1992, that I was asked by the police inspector in Skelani to

5 attend the medical centre in Bajina Basta to give a statement about what I

6 saw and did on that day. They also wanted me to help identify the bodies.

7 I went to the morgue and I saw many bodies which had been covered with

8 sheets, apart from their heads. I assisted in identifying about 30 local

9 villagers. They were ..." And then we have a list of 20.

10 Did you identify these 20? Did you see the body, the dead body,

11 of Milorad Rakic? Did you see and identify the dead body of Damjan

12 Maksimovic? Did you see the dead body of Andjelko Pavlovic? Did you see

13 the dead body of Blagomir Nikolic? This is what is being asked of you.

14 Or you saw a number of dead bodies, you didn't care who they were, but

15 when you were asked by the Prosecution, you told them, Look at the list,

16 those were the bodies. Which is the truth?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman who asked me to go and

18 find the information out, at the time, Mr. Ostoje was an inspector at the

19 SUP, and since he lived in Srebrenica but hailed from Sekovici and worked

20 in the SUP in Srebrenica, I was telling that person who the individual

21 persons were, where they hailed from, from Skelani and elsewhere.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: But that doesn't answer the question. My question

23 is a very simple one, and you have been trying to avoid answering it for

24 the past 15 minutes. You told the Prosecution, the officer of the

25 Prosecution, I went to Bajina Basta, and there I saw a lot of bodies, and

1 I helped in identifying a number of those bodies; I'm going to give you

2 the list; these are the persons I identified in Bajina Basta. Did you

3 identify those dead bodies, or did you just give a list and never really

4 identified any of those dead bodies?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ostoje would ask me who the

6 individual corpses were, and I would tell them their names and where the

7 villages hailed from. This refers solely to the people that I transported

8 over to Bajina Basta, and I provided him the names of the people. Whether

9 I was wrong in some of the names, but I don't believe so.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So you're telling us that the records that exist in

11 Bajina Basta, referring to the dead bodies that were transported on that

12 day by yourself, indicate names that you yourself gave to the persons over

13 there? Am I right or am I wrong? In other words, if the records in

14 Bajina Basta say that the body of Andja Janjic and the body of Dragomir

15 Nikolic were transported to the morgue in Bajina Basta on the 17th of

16 December, it's because you told the authorities over there that that is

17 the body of Blagomir Nikolic, that is the body of Andja Janjic, that is

18 the body of Milorad Rakic. Am I right or am I wrong?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're right.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: So you did identify these bodies, these dead

21 bodies?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: So when it's being put to you that Milorad Rakic was

24 -- couldn't have possibly been identified by you because he died 20 years

25 earlier, could you have been wrong? Did you know Milorad Rakic

1 personally?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew him personally. The man wore

3 this very black coat, and he is very dark complexioned. Not only him, but

4 his entire family.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction: A black hat.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was he living before, according to you, before

7 he was killed?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe they have a house in

9 Bajina Basta and in Skelani. I know for sure that they do have a house in

10 Skelani, whereas for Bajina Basta, I'm not sure whether they just had a

11 plot of land or a house as well.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: And before you transported his dead body on the 17th

13 of December, when did you see him last?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw the man in the summer and

15 autumn of 1992. He was a farmer. He was -- he had cattle to attend to,

16 and he had his land that he cultivated.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Let's move, Madam Vidovic.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for counsel, please.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can I have the usher's assistance,

20 please. I would like to show the witness D45. D45.

21 Q. This document is a list of soldiers from the Bratunac military

22 post who were killed between 1990 and 1996. If you could please look at

23 the page that bears the number 411. The names are listed and numbered.

24 If you can please look at 411. The name is Blagomir Nikolic, born 1943,

25 in Kalimanici. Blagomir Nikolic, born 1943. Date of death, 24th of

1

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7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 February, 1993, in Kalimanici.

2 Mr. Gligic, do you agree that you could not possibly have

3 identified this man at the morgue on the 17th of January, 1993, then?

4 A. How could he have been killed on the 24th when, to begin with,

5 there was no attack on the 24th? All the people who were killed in that

6 period of time were killed on the 16th of January. Later, there was a

7 cease-fire or a truce, peace, if you like.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'll just move on. I

9 think this is a pointless exercise.

10 Q. I've shown you a document claiming that the date of death was the

11 24th of February, 1993. Can you just please keep the Defence exhibit for

12 a while, D45. We shall be requiring this document for a while longer.

13 Witness, yesterday, you told us that Fakovici and Ratkovici had

14 been torched and looted. I will now ask you questions in relation to

15 this. I need you to just tell us what you personally witnessed and saw in

16 these two places. When were you in Ratkovici, as a matter of fact?

17 A. I was in Ratkovici -- well, I can't remember the date. It was

18 summertime, and I think the month was June. Whether early June or -- I

19 think it was in early June, unless I'm mistaken.

20 Q. In your statement to the OTP in 2000, you said that you were there

21 on the 20th of June, 1992; is that correct?

22 A. I was in Ratkovici -- well, I can't give you the exact date. I

23 was only there once. I said what I did there, and there's evidence to

24 corroborate my statement.

25 Q. Based on what was it that you told the Prosecutor that you were in

1 Ratkovici on the 20th of June, 1992? Is that true?

2 A. I don't know the date. I know that once I was there, and that was

3 when Ratkovici was attacked. I came to Fakovici. I remember that we left

4 the car there. And a group of people, together with the locals, set out

5 on foot towards Ratkovici.

6 Q. Very well. Therefore, you claim that it was only once that you

7 were in Ratkovici, in June 1992; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, only once, when we buried bodies.

9 Q. So you arrived in Ratkovici after the attack; do you agree with

10 that?

11 A. After the attack.

12 Q. You arrived, in fact, several hours later.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You did not see a single attacker there, did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You did not see a single person stealing anything from any of the

17 houses.

18 A. In Ratkovici? No.

19 Q. You did not see a single person set fire to any of the houses.

20 A. When we arrived, the houses were already in ashes but still

21 smoking. Whatever was there had already been torched.

22 Q. Thank you, witness. But please, can you pay closer attention to

23 my question. I'm asking about what you say personally, what you

24 witnessed. You did not see a single person set fire to any of the

25 houses. You personally did not see.

1 A. Not in Ratkovici.

2 Q. Based on what you saw in person, there's no way you can say

3 whether those homes were looted by elderly people, by women, by children;

4 in one word, by civilians?

5 A. The strategy --

6 Q. Can you please answer my question? Based on your personal

7 experience.

8 A. In Ratkovici, I did not see anyone taking things away or killing

9 people, as for the Muslims there. We only arrived later.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That closes the issue. I mean, if he didn't see

11 anyone, he can't explain any further than that.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.

13 Q. Yesterday, you were asked by the OTP as to your opinion on how

14 buildings in Ratkovici had been torched.

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. In relation to that, let me ask you: You have no special

17 knowledge that would allow you to conduct an investigation on how exactly

18 the houses were torched, do you?

19 A. If you look at the investigations in our area, people who were in

20 war, who know about war, people who were eyewitnesses know exactly what

21 the human factor amounts to, human force. People were not just committing

22 suicides and massacring their own, if you know what I mean.

23 Q. Please, witness, I asked you this: You have no special knowledge

24 that would allow you to conduct an investigation on the causes of the

25 houses being burned down?

1 A. You mean I have no authority?

2 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, it's a very simple question. If you see a

3 house in ashes, still smoking, how can you say how that -- how it came by

4 that that house ended up in ashes? How can you say that it did not catch

5 fire as a result of a short circuit? How can you say that it did not

6 catch fire as a result of arson? How can you say that it did not catch

7 fire in one way or in another? You can only say that you saw it burning,

8 or that you saw it in ashes, still smoking. But you can't say how it all

9 happened. Even if you think that it happened maliciously, you can't say

10 whether it was torched, whether a Zolja was fired into it. You can't say,

11 because you weren't there. You may say with regard to other places, but

12 you can't say with regard to the houses in Ratkovici. You can't even say

13 whether the people, the inhabitants themselves, set the houses on fire.

14 Not that it is likely, but you can't say it.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived in Ratkovici, I

16 realised that all the houses had been burned down. The pigs and home

17 animals had been slaughtered. People had been slaughtered. There were

18 bodies lying around. I buried one man with bits of shrubbery. I know his

19 son. His son works in Zvornik now. This is something that I remember

20 with great clarity, and this is something that I'll never be able to

21 forget.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And still you didn't give me one iota of what

23 should have been your answer. Nothing. You have not even tried to

24 answer my question, or else you're trying to avoid answering my question.

25 When you saw those houses in ashes, still smoking, you could only draw

1 one conclusion, that maybe they had been burned, but you don't know how

2 they were set on fire, what caused the burning.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's quite correct. But my

4 opinion is, as given in my statement.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But that's your opinion. We're not

6 interested in opinions, we're interested in facts. God forbid that we

7 acquit or convict persons on opinions here.

8 Yes, I think we need to stop for a break. We'll have a 25-minute

9 break, starting from now.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's conclude this, Madam Vidovic.

13 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Gligic, yesterday you said that the victims of the attack on

15 Ratkovici were, for the most part, elderly men and women not wearing

16 uniforms; in other words, they were civilians. Now, that's not true, is

17 it?

18 A. All I said was that they were civilians.

19 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Can the witness please, again, be

20 shown D45, a document that was left with the witness. Can you please turn

21 to page 457 through to 491. Your Honours, I'm not going through all the

22 names of the fighters who were killed in Ratkovici, because this was

23 something that we discussed with previous witnesses. I would like the

24 witness, however, to have a look at some of these names.

25 Q. Witness, can you please look at 464. The name is Zivan

1 Prodanovic, son of Petar, born on the 16th of January, 1966, in the

2 village of Ratkovici, killed on the 21st of June, 1992, in Ratkovici.

3 Next, if you can please turn the page and look at 495. Milutin

4 Rankic, son of Obrad, born on the 15th of May, 1944, in Ratkovici. Place

5 of death, Ratkovici. Date of death, the 21st of June, 1992.

6 And then if you can, again, turn the page, please, and look at

7 number 549. Nikola Stanovic, son of Todor, born in 1958, in Ratkovici,

8 killed on the 21st of June, 1992.

9 Next, 551, Stanojevic, son of Vladislav, born on the 16th of

10 November, 1949, in Ratkovici, killed on the 21st of June, 1992, in

11 Ratkovici.

12 Mr. Gligic, do you agree that these persons - you can see their

13 respective years of birth - were young, or at least relatively young back

14 in 1992, which is when they were killed? Their names are on the list of

15 soldiers who were members of the Bratunac military post. Therefore, Mr.

16 Gligic, you were not telling the truth when --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: He has not answered as yet.

18 A. When I was in Ratkovici, I don't know exactly how many bodies

19 there were. I only know the ones that I buried. I know the name of that

20 man. I know his last name and I know who his son is. His son worked at

21 the Bratunac SUP, but now he works in Zvornik.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop. Can you explain to me where the contradiction

23 lies, Madam Vidovic? Because the question that you put to him earlier on

24 was that yesterday he said that the majority were civilians, which

25 basically means that there was a minority, and you have only mentioned or

1 referred him to four persons. So how does that clash with his testimony?

2 Could you explain, please? He never said that there were no militaries or

3 soldiers or non-civilians who got killed in Ratkovici on the 21st of June,

4 1992.

5 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at the outset, I stated

6 that there are at least ten persons on this list who were killed on the

7 21st of June, 1992. I also said that I will not go through the entire

8 list. The witness stated that those killed were mostly elderly men and

9 women, and what I gave him were names of people who were young. But I can

10 move on.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's move on, then.

12 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, you said that, right after the attack on the 21st of

14 June, you had seen the body of the late Stojan; is that correct?

15 A. Stojan?

16 Q. Yes, Stojan Stevanovic. You spoke about his sexual organ.

17 A. Yes. When we crossed the village, Ratkovici I mean, the people

18 who were with me said that his last name was Stevanovic. I saw that his

19 organ had been severed from his body and placed in his mouth.

20 Q. Witness, please, the essence of my question concerns this: Did

21 you see Stojan right after the attack on Ratkovici, on the 21st of June,

22 1992?

23 A. When we arrived in the village of Ratkovici, on the way into the

24 village, that's when I saw him. And then the locals there told me his3030

25 name.

1 Q. Witness, I'm putting it to you that you did not see Stojan

2 Stevanovic at the time. You could not have seen him, the reason being he

3 only died on the 27th of June, 1992, as late as that. That is the truth,

4 isn't it?

5 A. I know that he has a brother who worked in Skelani as a teacher.

6 He worked in Skelani as a teacher, and his brother used to come to

7 Skelani. And this man was brought over and he was buried right there.

8 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, again, let us turn our

9 attention to D45, number 557, Stojan Stevanovic, son of Dragomir, born in

10 Ratkovici, killed on the 27th of June, 1992, in Ratkovici.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, was there fighting in Ratkovici on

12 the 27th of June, 1992? If you know, of course.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But after the 21st of June, 1992, are

15 you aware of any further fighting in Ratkovici?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Next question, Madam Vidovic.

18 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. I will ask you briefly about something in relation to the attacks

20 on Krnici and Malina. You said that a lot of civilians were killed there,

21 including Boban the priest. Can you please, again, look at -- can you

22 please, again, look at D45, the list of Bratunac Brigade soldiers that

23 were killed. Look at the name under 269, Boban Lazarevic, son of Spasoje.

24 It's true, isn't it, Mr. Gligic, that Boban Lazarevic, the priest,

25 relinquished his vows, and before the war he was involved actively in

1 bringing volunteers in from Serbia into the area, and he led the Serbian

2 population of the villages in expelling their Muslim neighbours from the

3 surrounding villages. Is that not a fact?

4 A. No.

5 Q. The truth of the matter is, Boban, the priest, was killed in

6 combat on the 5th of July, 1992, as a soldier and not as a civilian, in

7 Krnici?

8 A. I'm not sure if he was wearing his priest robe or civilian

9 clothes. I know that there was a church in that village. He was there.

10 That's where he was killed. We pulled his body out after that.

11 Q. Very well. You were quite decided yesterday when you said, in

12 relation to Fakovici, that all civilians there were killed; is that true?

13 A. You have this house, and the owner's last name was Markovic. In

14 that house --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gligic, please answer the question. Just the

16 question. It's a very simple question. You are being asked to confirm,

17 or not to confirm, what you said yesterday; namely, that in relation to

18 Fakovici, according to you, all civilians were killed. Just answer yes or

19 no.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

22 Next question, Madam Vidovic.

23 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. I'm putting it to you that at least 13 soldiers, members of the

25 Bratunac Brigade, got killed on that day in Fakovici.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: How does that change his testimony? Because his

2 testimony, according to you and according to the previous question, was

3 that -- you asked him to confirm that all civilians were killed. This is

4 what I have here on the transcript. You did not ask him to -- about

5 non-civilians and about soldiers, and I don't think he ever testified

6 about soldiers getting killed or not getting killed in Fakovici.

7 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he testified yesterday

8 decisively by saying that all those killed in Fakovici were civilians, and

9 he confirmed so today, at least that's how I understood it. And in

10 addition to this, I would like to show the witness a part of his statement

11 given to the investigators on the page 03063356, where he said:

12 "In this attack, 22 persons were killed, all of whom were

13 civilians."

14 And I'm claiming --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead with your question.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I'm putting it to you, Mr. Gligic, that at least 13 of these were

19 soldiers.

20 A. I'm not aware of this.

21 Q. Very well. You stated that you had gone to Fakovici on the 6th of

22 October, 1992. You never saw any attackers there either, nor can you

23 state anything in relation to them.

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. You never saw the manner in which the houses were burned down, if

1 any were, either; is that right?

2 A. Yes, that's right.

3 Q. I will move on to a different matter. Yesterday, you told us that

4 you knew Naser Oric from before the war. Yesterday, you explained that

5 you saw him just before the outbreak of the war, in 1992. However, I will

6 show to you your statement for the investigators in 2000 when you stated

7 that you saw Naser Oric, who was surrounded by a group of armed Muslims,

8 back in early 1991.

9 A. I saw the gentleman wearing a police uniform. It was after

10 Herzegovina that he arrived in a Golf vehicle to this cafe named Merima

11 where Ahmo Tihic was seated. At this particular table, there were also

12 members of the reserve police forces, but they were not seated at the same

13 table with him but at a different table.

14 Q. Witness, I'm asking you simply what the truth is. Is the truth

15 what you told to the investigators back in 2000 when you claimed that you

16 had met Naser Oric in 2001, when he was wearing a beard? Yesterday, you

17 told us quite a different thing, that you met him just before the war;

18 that he wasn't wearing a beard. These are two completely different

19 statements. What is true?

20 A. You have not been citing the dates as I told them. I told you

21 that it was prior to the war, in the community centre, where the gentleman

22 was working out in the gym, that I saw him in civilian clothes. And I saw

23 him in Bratunac in civilian clothes. And I saw the gentleman wearing a

24 uniform in the Merima cafe, owned by Tihic Behim.

25 Q. I'm drawing Your Honours' attention to the part of the 2000

1 statement where he says the following:

2 "The next person I'm going to be talking about is Naser Oric, who

3 gathered a group of armed Muslims around him. I heard that he had become

4 their leader. I got to know Naser Oric in early 1991, in a hall ..." And

5 so on and so forth.

6 So which of these accounts is the true one, Mr. Gligic?

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Referring to the next statement, Madam Vidovic, the

8 next paragraph says: "The next time I saw Naser Oric was between the 5th

9 and 10th of April, at a Skelani cafe." This is the Merima cafe.

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That's correct. Yes, that's

11 correct. But I was referring to that part of the witness' statement when

12 he was telling about him meeting Naser Oric and getting to know him for

13 the first time.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Yes, let's move.

15 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You told us that on the 4th of April, 1992, when you saw Naser

17 Oric, that he was an idol for the Muslims, he was their commander. Do you

18 really maintain that in April 1992, Naser Oric was considered an idol by

19 all the Muslims or a commander of theirs?

20 A. The gentleman you're referring to had at the time, at the

21 Srebrenica MUP, a very high position. That was a very influential one. I

22 remember it was Bajram, I cannot forget this, and he was seated at a cafe

23 with the chief of police, who was appointed to his post through political

24 connections. I don't know his name.

25 Q. Witness, my question was a very specific one. Do you really

1 maintain that he was considered an idol at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Or a commander?

4 A. An idol, yes.

5 Q. I'm putting it to you that at the time he was widely known as a --

6 one of the bodyguards for the Serbian president, Slobodan Milosevic, and

7 you must know about this.

8 A. Yes, but you're mixing up the dates. This was later on, and what

9 you're talking about was earlier on.

10 Q. When talking about the attacks, you were very certain in assessing

11 yesterday that Naser Oric was the commander of the Muslim forces.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When I asked you whether Radovan Karadzic, together with the SDS

14 leadership, was stationed at Pale, you answered: "I am not aware of

15 this." This is page 72, line 15. And you added: "I heard this from the

16 media, but I myself don't know anything about it. I was driving an

17 ambulance." And I will put a question to you in relation to this.

18 Mr. Gligic, it seems to me that you know much more about the

19 organisation of the Muslim army than about the basic facts of the Serbian

20 leadership and where it was stationed.

21 A. That's not correct. I know very well that the leadership of

22 Republika Srpska was stationed at Pale, but that's not how you phrased

23 your question. As far as I remember, you asked me whether the War

24 Presidency of Skelani had any contacts with the authorities at the time,

25 and I don't know that.

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1 Q. Very well. Witness, you claimed that you were merely driving an

2 ambulance; therefore, you never personally attended any meetings of the

3 soldiers of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or any of its commanders.

4 A. You mean the Muslims?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. No, I didn't. But at the beginning of the war, when we were at

7 the cafe, they were having a conversation. I don't know what they were

8 talking about. But when you have a mono-ethnic group gathering, then you

9 can imagine what they're talking about.

10 Q. Witness, please listen closely to my questions. My question was:

11 You yourself never personally attended any meetings held by the Muslim

12 commanders.

13 A. No, I didn't.

14 Q. That's why I'm putting it to you again that this part of your

15 testimony concerning the Muslim commanders attacking Skelani is based on

16 assumptions, surmises, rumours.

17 A. That's not true.

18 Q. You yourself didn't have any reliable information in regard to

19 this.

20 A. At the time, in Skelani and around Skelani, the entire

21 municipality, including the Muslims and the Serbs, almost all of them knew

22 who the commander in Srebrenica was.

23 Q. But you yourself had no reliable information, other than what you

24 heard talked around.

25 A. The people, and I mean the Muslims, be it civilians or soldiers,

1 who were captured during these combat activities and were then exchanged,

2 from these Muslims I found out that Naser was the commander for

3 Srebrenica. And there were a great many footages that I watched in

4 Skelani, in Bratunac, where I watched his speeches and his actions.

5 Q. I wasn't aware of the fact that you were a police officer

6 conducting investigations about the Muslims, allowing you to make such

7 conclusions.

8 A. I'm not a police officer, but I am a resident of Skelani. And any

9 resident of a town, whichever town it be, is interested in knowing who the

10 commander of the police is, who a manager of a public company is. That's

11 only natural.

12 Q. Mr. Gligic, you must be aware of the fact that many Muslims who

13 were questioned in Skelani were subjected to all manner of torture.

14 A. I'm not aware of that, nor do I know that there were any

15 interrogations. I was unable to find out anything about this.

16 Q. Very well. I will move on to a different question.

17 Yesterday, you told us about Ahmo Tihic and that he was

18 trafficking in arms; isn't that right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You yourself never bought any weapons from him, did you?

21 A. I myself did not. But the people I socialised with and I lived

22 with can tell you his name. He was born in 1961. Zurijet Leskovica was

23 telling us about this. And I claim to you for a fact that I knew that

24 Ahmo Tihic was arming all the weapons in Skelani, and that he was

25 demanding high sums of money in exchange for these weapons.

1 Q. Very well. I'll move on to a different question.

2 In June 2000, you told the investigators that you took part in an

3 exchange that occurred on the 29th of January, 1993. A moment ago, I

4 showed you -- I showed you the statement --

5 A. The dates that I provided. Now, whether I would be able to tell

6 you the exact dates today, 12 years later, I don't know. But there are

7 eyewitnesses, Muslims, who were being exchanged and who know that I was

8 there.

9 Q. You are quite certain, Mr. Gligic, that you yourself took part in

10 the exchange of the persons, Milena Mitrovic, Branko Mitrovic, Sane

11 Mitrovic, and so on. Are you quite sure about that?

12 A. Yes, I am. And Mr. Ramiz, who was a representative on their side,

13 and Mr. Mandza from whom we were taking papers when we would show up and

14 surrender our papers to them. These papers served the purpose of them

15 agreeing on their future cooperation.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Do you have a re-examination,

17 Ms. Sellers?

18 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I will have to have a re-examination.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: How long?

20 MS. SELLERS: I believe it's going to be at least 15 minutes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I meant to finish with this witness today. This is

22 misleading -- misleading the Trial Chamber completely, and creating a

23 situation where we cannot plan. So you have five minutes more, and you

24 have to conclude, Madam Vidovic.

25 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Gligic, did you have any contacts with Ivan Ivanovic -- with

2 Ilija Ivanovic, after his exchange?

3 A. I believe that it was on the 26th of February that Ilija Ivanovic

4 was exchanged.

5 Q. Did you talk to him about his captivity, his detention?

6 A. Not at that particular point in time, no. I brought the gentleman

7 over to Skelani, and I believe he was taken by car from there to the

8 health centre to be examined. Later on - some time elapsed before he

9 recovered - I would see him occasionally, and I still see him

10 occasionally.

11 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we turn into

12 private session briefly, because I have to name a witness, and it's a

13 very important matter.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let's go into private session for a while,

15 please.

16 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Therefore, Mr. Gligic, do you really believe that the people we

4 saw on the video, whose houses had been torched and looted, and who had to

5 live under such difficult conditions out in the woods, really needed

6 ordering to burn the homes of those who had done this to them?

7 A. I understand both the Serbian and the Muslim people, but not

8 everyone is like that.

9 Q. Finally, this fact about Oric giving orders to those people is not

10 something that you mentioned in your detailed statement to the

11 investigators, an 18-page statement, in fact. Can you just answer my

12 question briefly?

13 A. I forgot that, but there are things that I'm remembering even now.

14 It has been 12 years since, madam.

15 Q. You concluded your testimony yesterday by saying that, in the

16 Podrinje area, both Serbs and Muslims committed atrocities, but that

17 Muslims had the upper hand in this. Is it possible, Mr. Gligic, for you

18 to ignore the genocide that occurred in this area in 1995 to such a

19 terrifying extent?

20 A. No, you didn't understand. I'm talking about the Skelani area.

21 Whoever committed crimes must be held to account. The people at large

22 can't be blamed for anything.

23 Q. But it is true that it was precisely the people from Skelani, the

24 Skelani Battalion, who murdered a lot of these people, including Ahmo

25 Tihic, who you testified about yesterday, is it not?

1 A. I really have no idea where Ahmo Tihic was killed. I don't have

2 any information on that. I don't know. I know when he came to Skelani

3 with his father, I shook hands with him, and his father, a man called

4 Mujo, told me that his son --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Why are you giving us this extra information? No

6 one asked you for it. You have absolutely disrupted our schedule, our

7 time schedule, by going on and on and on, and giving information that was

8 not asked from you.

9 Are you finished, Madam Vidovic?

10 MS. VIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, yes, I have no further

11 questions.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Sellers.

13 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I'll try to be as brief as possible.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If you could finish in less than ten minutes,

15 please. And concentrate on what is relevant to the case, because I am

16 very much afraid that we are missing completely the trees for the wood or

17 the wood for the trees.

18 Re-examined by Ms. Sellers:

19 Q. Mr. Gligic, you testified earlier, and Ms. Vidovic made reference

20 to your statement, about the fact that you saw Naser Oric in a gym in

21 1991. At that time period, did you meet him in the sense that you had a

22 conversation with him and you were introduced to him properly?

23 A. No.

24 Q. So when you say that you knew him, you met him, that means that

25 you knew him when you saw him, you knew of him, but that you were not

1 someone who personally spoke with him; isn't that correct?

2 A. I never personally spoke to him, no.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MS. SELLERS: I'd like to have Defence Exhibit 179.

5 Q. Mr. Gligic, I think you've been asked questions about that,

6 particularly as to the different units that were stationed in the area.

7 Is it still your testimony that none of these units were stationed within

8 the village of Skelani in July 1992?

9 A. It is still my position that none of the mentioned units were,

10 with the exception of volunteers, from Bajina Basta.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Gligic, if you would look at the Defence Exhibit

12 -- I'm sorry, I don't have the number for it. It's the one with the ERN

13 number 01857913. Mr. Gligic, is it still your testimony that, during the

14 attack in Skelani, that there were no APCs, tanks, or trucks, or any

15 presence, to your knowledge, of the Uzice Corps?

16 A. There was no corps there and no tanks.

17 Q. And I would like to go to Defence Exhibit 178, which is a Human

18 Rights Watch report. We don't necessarily have to give it to the

19 defendant -- to the witness. I will read it out loud.

20 Madam Vidovic read a section of this Human Rights Watch report.

21 There is one sentence that came after she finished a paragraph, and I will

22 read it to you now. In reference to Bosnian Muslims going to Bajina

23 Basta, it says:

24 "Others were driven from Bajina Basta to Loznica (in Serbia) in

25 six buses and two trucks. In Loznica, the refugees were taken back to the

1 Bosnian town of Kalesija."

2 Does it remain your testimony that many Bosnian Muslims went from

3 Skelani to Bajina Basta and then possibly to further places in Serbia?

4 And, I'm sorry, let me situate this. This would be in April or May of

5 1992.

6 A. What you said about the time frame was quite accurate, the months

7 you mentioned. It is still my position today that the Muslims went to the

8 Red Cross at Bajina Basta and they -- they went on, travelled on to other

9 towns in Serbia, wherever they were received. Some went to Macedonia,

10 some to Croatia.

11 Q. Thank you. Lastly, I would like to ask you, Mr. Gligic, is it

12 still your testimony that refugees came into Skelani, and that there were

13 both Bosnian Serb refugees and Bosnian Muslim refugees that were in the

14 area of Skelani during the spring and summer of 1992?

15 A. In that period of time, there were Muslims, right, those who had

16 left, and you had people coming to Skelani, Serbs from Tuzla, from

17 whatever Bosnian towns they were in at the time, whichever Bosnian towns

18 were in today's federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. SELLERS: Your Honours, I would like to show the Defence

21 video, just a 30-second portion of that. I believe -- is it up on

22 everyone's Sanction?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Not yet. It is now.

24 MS. SELLERS: Yes.

25 [Videotape played]

1 MS. SELLERS:

2 Q. Mr. Gligic, I would like to read to you what is said underneath,

3 just for purposes of it not being translated into your language. It

4 appears that a person is saying: "We were first down there on Ravnica

5 without cottages, without anything. We were receiving refugees that came

6 from all sides."

7 Is this consistent with the testimony that you've given the Trial

8 Chamber that refugees from all sides were in and around the Skelani area

9 during this time period?

10 MR. JONES: Can we clarify whether "sides" means geographical or

11 ethnicity? Otherwise it's confusing.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's confusing at all, Mr. Jones.

13 MR. JONES: "All sides" could easily mean east, west, north,

14 south.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: "We were receiving refugees that came from all

16 sides."

17 MR. JONES: That's probably what it does mean, in our submission.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's self-explanatory.

19 MS. SELLERS: I'll just repeat the question.

20 Q. Is this consistent with the testimony that you've given, Mr.

21 Gligic? That in the Skelani area, there were refugees that were both

22 Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Serb? You can just answer yes or no.

23 A. I'm not sure I understand the question. Can you please repeat the

24 question. What exactly do you want to know?

25 Q. Certainly. I'd like to know that when you see this image here,

1 and then where it is saying, and I'm translating it for you, in essence,

2 "we were receiving refugees that came from all sides," is that assistant

3 with your testimony that you gave to the Trial Chamber that, in the

4 Skelani area, in 1992, from the spring throughout, that there were

5 refugees that were Bosnian Serb refugees and Bosnian Muslim refugees, that

6 were in the area?

7 MR. JONES: Your Honour, I hate to object, it's just as if my

8 learned friend is trying to get misleading evidence from this witness. If

9 he were just to be asked, Do you think that Bosnian Serb refugees were

10 being accepted by the Bosnian Muslim refugees whom we see in the video,

11 then we can get a clear answer.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But he said he was not understanding the question,

13 so what do you expect? It's a simple question. Whether what this

14 gentleman is saying coincides with what he believes to be the truth or

15 whether it's not.

16 MR. JONES: That's why the witness is so confused, because is it

17 consistent in what sense? He's being invited to say yes, it's consistent,

18 and then my learned friend will get to what she wants to get. But, in

19 fact --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Gligic, when I tell you that someone says, "we

21 were receiving refugees that came from all sides," what do you understand?

22 This gentleman here, with his hand on the tree, resting, is saying "we

23 were receiving refugees that came from all sides." What is he

24 telling us? What kind of refugees? What does he mean, refugees that

25 came from all sides?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand the question now. This

2 frame shows that, and the gentleman said that too. They were only

3 receiving Muslim refugees from some of the villages. I'm not sure if that

4 was the case or not. I can neither confirm or deny.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: This is making the confusion more confounded. This

6 is making confusion more confounded.

7 MR. JONES: Through no fault of mine, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm certainly not blaming you.

9 MR. JONES: Your Honour looked at me.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: But I honestly think that I -- I honestly don't

11 think I should burden the interpreters, the rest of the staff, any

12 further. I think I'm going to ask my colleagues to agree to stop here.

13 Mr. Gligic, you need to return again tomorrow, and blame yourself

14 for it. We are adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of

17 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.

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